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\"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 486.389, \"end\": 486.829, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 486.829, \"end\": 486.989, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 486.989, \"end\": 487.009, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,809 --> 00:00:09,560\n主席我想請這個農業部次長跟我們國土署的副署長好\n\n2\n00:00:14,679 --> 00:00:39,706\n好早那國土計畫法在去年年底完成三讀修法那確定再展延六年那這是連我們昭緯我們這個經濟委員會大家都一致支持的那去年立法院之所以通過展延修法呢是一個補課的機會我們看到我們希望期待看到一個完整的配套明確的路徑積極的溝通請問農業部跟內政部這三個月來\n\n3\n00:00:44,167 --> 00:01:13,690\n有沒有什麼具體的規劃為之後做準備呢是我們已經把涉及到土地管制相關的規定的六個法六部法律啊全部把它修好而且已經送到行政院那其中四部已經完成行政院的這個審議另外還有兩部行政院退回來給我們要我們再做修正那這個的內容呢這六部法的內容大概會跟我們的農業部跟我們的農民有什麼相關呢對就是裡面涉及包括\n\n4\n00:01:14,430 --> 00:01:39,755\n包括農業發展條例還有這個農產品市場交易法還有漁業法森林法以及水土保持法還有這個農地管制上坡地保育規則這些都跟農民的權利有直接的關係那接下來我再請教國土署一個問題就是說你知道國土計畫法跟執法的專區網站是你們設的嗎\n\n5\n00:01:42,701 --> 00:02:06,440\n是那你知道最後一次更新是什麼時候嗎你不知道上面寫的那麼清楚去年的12月25日到今天為止顯示能有七項執法尚未完備就是剛才次長說他有通過的法你也都還沒有update那到今天喔已經三個多月了\n\n6\n00:02:07,020 --> 00:02:28,926\n完全都毫無進度那這個是否說你完全沒有實質進度那如果有進度為什麼網站不更新那如果連基本的資訊揭露都做不到你要怎麼談說你跟社會跟地方有合作呢好跟委員報告那因為一月份要延長之後我們所有的剩下這些執法的部分\n\n7\n00:02:29,346 --> 00:02:57,611\n我們原來都在布裡面已經在進最後的階段的部分我們就退回來依現在的法還有相規還有農業部相關的調整我們正在去所以這三個月內都沒有什麼值得可以update的東西嗎不是還是你們現在已經覺得這已經延遲六年了所以我們慢慢來沒有關係我現在想說的就是其中最關鍵的國土計畫土地使用管制規則到現在連草案的定稿都看不到\n\n8\n00:02:59,420 --> 00:03:23,138\n這個你們訂稿了嗎我們有草案訂稿可是這個專區是最後的結果嘛法定程序完成那你要讓大家知道說我們訂稿中啊民眾要怎麼討論地方政府要怎麼準備你完全都沒有任何的information你特別設了一個網站你也可以不要設這個網站你設了一個網站之後你三個月都不update假設今天我不告訴你\n\n9\n00:03:24,690 --> 00:03:31,016\n搞不好明年的今天我問你你也都還沒有update那接下來我再請教那個農業部次長喔\n\n10\n00:03:32,788 --> 00:03:59,431\n當初這個農業部有承諾說會處理農地分區的爭議也說了農業堆疊式補助然後也跟這個可能跟國土計畫法並沒有說相關直接連結的扣在一起那我也想請問一下次長那請問這三個月以來有沒有針對農一農二劃分的準則跟補貼的辦法有新的進展呢劃分的準則本來就已經就有\n\n11\n00:04:00,111 --> 00:04:15,652\n我知道但是大家很有疑慮啊你劃分的準則大家都覺得太粗糙啦你有沒有一些更細緻的規劃呢還是你覺得不需要改變這個是我們在榮譽榮那個很早就已經定案了而且已經有共識的\n\n12\n00:04:16,192 --> 00:04:44,731\n你跟誰的共識你跟農民的共識嗎農民也有也有學者專家還有各機關都有目前目前喔據我所知非常多的農業縣都對農一農二劃分的那個粗糙方式有所意見所以是農業部到現在不知道說有這樣子的大家有這樣的意見嗎還是你公文都隨便看一看然後沒有仔細看嗎這是國家大政不能開玩笑的是啊不能開玩笑啊我們變得非常清楚這個委員可能\n\n13\n00:04:45,331 --> 00:05:02,629\n可能是你所講的定義跟我是不知道你的定義事實上農醫農醫那個都很清楚你的農醫把一些沒有重化過的土地也化作農醫沒有農路沒有水路也可以當作農醫嗎那個是各縣市政府在劃分的時候把它劃進來那個是你們給的規範\n\n14\n00:05:05,651 --> 00:05:20,816\n那是你們給的規範這不是委員可以讓我來念一下農醫的定義不需要我現在不需要你在這裡念我現在要提醒的是不管是農業部也好不管是國土署也好展延六年是希望能夠\n\n15\n00:05:22,216 --> 00:05:29,778\n展現出更妥善的一個成績單而不是說你們可以研製六年延宕六年放著給他發燒不是這樣子六年不是一個無限期啊可能時間一晃眼就過去了那如果到時候問題一樣存在的話那還是基層亂啊民眾怨啊民眾罵啊這樣的法案就沒有辦法轉變社會的觀感那當初他的這個\n\n16\n00:05:48,824 --> 00:05:54,769\n政策正當性怎麼辦呢所以我很希望說我們今天既然是要討論國土計劃法這個延遲之後大家要怎麼把它完善我本席希望你們不要告訴我說我們都已經規劃好了\n\n17\n00:06:04,877 --> 00:06:07,859\n規劃好了為什麼不能實施為什麼不能實施就是因為有疑慮嘛現在已經有22個縣當中剩下南投縣沒有出來我知道但是他們提出的還是有疑慮否則為什麼民進黨黨團他也支持要延役呢他也支持要延遲6年呢就是大家朝野\n\n18\n00:06:25,131 --> 00:06:40,981\n唯一的共識就是這個法不夠周延需要再把它完善包括這個國土署絕對不是只有農業部你也背負非常重要的這個責任甚至國發會也是啊跨部會的協調要怎麼協調總不能讓他們自己他們兩邊對不上是不是國發會也要負一點責任呢我問國發會啊好謝謝\n\n19\n00:06:54,400 --> 00:07:00,765\n國發會針對這個國土計畫法有沒有在橫向溝通有沒有在協助農業部有沒有在協助內政部我們一直都有很密切的在做討論那我們像怎麼討論我們有找那個國土署還有我們農業部這邊我們來討論但實際上我們也發現有一些執行上面其實目前這六年可能也必須要及時要做的事情\n\n20\n00:07:21,159 --> 00:07:44,975\n這六年本席是希望說國發會你既然要幫忙整合的話你應該要有時程出來可能幾年到幾年你要完成什麼部分幾年到幾年你要怎麼樣多辦公廳會你必須要有一個期程而不是說漫長的這樣子等到可能要執行的前一年然後又突然發現這五年你們什麼都沒做是吧\n\n21\n00:07:45,615 --> 00:08:07,009\n是是是這個應該我覺得國土署目前都已經有進度而且農業部這裡也都看得到那進度也沒有今天委員會的內容也都沒有任何的報告啊是不是要做什麼事情那我們在會後我再跟他們來是如果你們討論之後也希望能夠儘速向本委員會提出報告說明好嗎謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4809\t9560\t主席我想請這個農業部次長跟我們國土署的副署長好\n14679\t39706\t好 早那國土計畫法在去年年底完成三讀修法那確定再展延六年那這是連我們昭緯我們這個經濟委員會大家都一致支持的那去年立法院之所以通過展延修法呢是一個補課的機會我們看到我們希望期待看到一個完整的配套明確的路徑 積極的溝通請問農業部跟內政部這三個月來\n44167\t73690\t有沒有什麼具體的規劃為之後做準備呢是 我們已經把涉及到土地管制相關的規定的六個法 六部法律啊全部把它修好 而且已經送到行政院那其中四部已經完成行政院的這個審議另外還有兩部行政院退回來給我們 要我們再做修正那這個的內容呢這六部法的內容大概會跟我們的農業部跟我們的農民有什麼相關呢對 就是裡面涉及包括\n74430\t99755\t包括農業發展條例還有這個農產品市場交易法還有漁業法森林法以及水土保持法還有這個農地管制上坡地保育規則這些都跟農民的權利有直接的關係那接下來我再請教國土署一個問題就是說你知道國土計畫法跟執法的專區網站是你們設的嗎\n102701\t126440\t是那你知道最後一次更新是什麼時候嗎你不知道上面寫的那麼清楚去年的12月25日到今天為止顯示能有七項執法尚未完備就是剛才次長說他有通過的法你也都還沒有update那到今天喔已經三個多月了\n127020\t148926\t完全都毫無進度那這個是否說你完全沒有實質進度那如果有進度為什麼網站不更新那如果連基本的資訊揭露都做不到你要怎麼談說你跟社會跟地方有合作呢好 跟委員報告那因為一月份要延長之後我們所有的剩下這些執法的部分\n149346\t177611\t我們原來都在布裡面已經在進最後的階段的部分我們就退回來依現在的法還有相規還有農業部相關的調整我們正在去所以這三個月內都沒有什麼值得可以update的東西嗎不是還是你們現在已經覺得這已經延遲六年了所以我們慢慢來沒有關係我現在想說的就是其中最關鍵的國土計畫土地使用管制規則到現在連草案的定稿都看不到\n179420\t203138\t這個你們訂稿了嗎我們有草案訂稿可是這個專區是最後的結果嘛法定程序完成那你要讓大家知道說我們訂稿中啊民眾要怎麼討論地方政府要怎麼準備你完全都沒有任何的information你特別設了一個網站你也可以不要設這個網站你設了一個網站之後你三個月都不update假設今天我不告訴你\n204690\t211016\t搞不好明年的今天我問你 你也都還沒有update那接下來我再請教那個農業部次長喔\n212788\t239431\t當初這個農業部有承諾說會處理農地分區的爭議也說了農業堆疊式補助然後也跟這個可能跟國土計畫法並沒有說相關直接連結的扣在一起那我也想請問一下次長那請問這三個月以來有沒有針對農一農二劃分的準則跟補貼的辦法有新的進展呢劃分的準則本來就已經就有\n240111\t255652\t我知道 但是大家很有疑慮啊 你劃分的準則大家都覺得太粗糙啦 你有沒有一些更細緻的規劃呢還是你覺得不需要改變這個是我們在榮譽榮那個很早就已經定案了 而且已經有共識的\n256192\t284731\t你跟誰的共識 你跟農民的共識嗎農民也有 也有學者專家還有各機關都有目前 目前喔 據我所知非常多的農業縣都對農一農二劃分的那個粗糙方式有所意見所以是農業部到現在不知道說有這樣子的大家有這樣的意見嗎還是你公文都隨便看一看 然後沒有仔細看嗎這是國家大政不能開玩笑的是啊 不能開玩笑啊我們變得非常清楚 這個委員可能\n285331\t302629\t可能是你所講的定義跟我是不知道你的定義事實上農醫農醫那個都很清楚你的農醫把一些沒有重化過的土地也化作農醫沒有農路沒有水路也可以當作農醫嗎那個是各縣市政府在劃分的時候把它劃進來那個是你們給的規範\n305651\t320816\t那是你們給的規範這不是委員可以讓我來念一下農醫的定義不需要我現在不需要你在這裡念我現在要提醒的是不管是農業部也好不管是國土署也好展延六年是希望能夠\n322216\t329778\t展現出更妥善的一個成績單而不是說你們可以研製六年 延宕六年 放著給他發燒不是這樣子 六年不是一個無限期啊可能時間一晃眼就過去了那如果到時候問題一樣存在的話那還是基層亂啊 民眾怨啊 民眾罵啊這樣的法案就沒有辦法轉變社會的觀感那當初他的這個\n348824\t354769\t政策正當性怎麼辦呢所以我很希望說我們今天既然是要討論國土計劃法這個延遲之後大家要怎麼把它完善我本席希望你們不要告訴我說我們都已經規劃好了\n364877\t367859\t規劃好了為什麼不能實施為什麼不能實施就是因為有疑慮嘛現在已經有22個縣當中剩下南投縣沒有出來我知道但是他們提出的還是有疑慮否則為什麼民進黨黨團他也支持要延役呢他也支持要延遲6年呢就是大家朝野\n385131\t400981\t唯一的共識就是這個法不夠周延需要再把它完善包括這個國土署絕對不是只有農業部你也背負非常重要的這個責任甚至國發會也是啊跨部會的協調要怎麼協調總不能讓他們自己他們兩邊對不上是不是國發會也要負一點責任呢我問國發會啊好 謝謝\n414400\t420765\t國發會針對這個國土計畫法有沒有在橫向溝通有沒有在協助農業部有沒有在協助內政部我們一直都有很密切的在做討論那我們像 怎麼討論我們有找那個國土署還有我們農業部這邊我們來討論但實際上我們也發現有一些執行上面其實目前這六年可能也必須要及時要做的事情\n441159\t464975\t這六年本席是希望說國發會你既然要幫忙整合的話你應該要有時程出來可能幾年到幾年你要完成什麼部分幾年到幾年你要怎麼樣多辦公廳會你必須要有一個期程而不是說漫長的這樣子等到可能要執行的前一年然後又突然發現這五年你們什麼都沒做是吧\n465615\t487009\t是是是 這個應該我覺得國土署目前都已經有進度而且農業部這裡也都看得到那進度也沒有今天委員會的內容也都沒有任何的報告啊是不是要做什麼事情 那我們在會後我再跟他們來是 如果你們討論之後也希望能夠儘速向本委員會提出報告說明 好嗎謝謝\n","txt":"主席我想請這個農業部次長跟我們國土署的副署長好\n好 早那國土計畫法在去年年底完成三讀修法那確定再展延六年那這是連我們昭緯我們這個經濟委員會大家都一致支持的那去年立法院之所以通過展延修法呢是一個補課的機會我們看到我們希望期待看到一個完整的配套明確的路徑 積極的溝通請問農業部跟內政部這三個月來\n有沒有什麼具體的規劃為之後做準備呢是 我們已經把涉及到土地管制相關的規定的六個法 六部法律啊全部把它修好 而且已經送到行政院那其中四部已經完成行政院的這個審議另外還有兩部行政院退回來給我們 要我們再做修正那這個的內容呢這六部法的內容大概會跟我們的農業部跟我們的農民有什麼相關呢對 就是裡面涉及包括\n包括農業發展條例還有這個農產品市場交易法還有漁業法森林法以及水土保持法還有這個農地管制上坡地保育規則這些都跟農民的權利有直接的關係那接下來我再請教國土署一個問題就是說你知道國土計畫法跟執法的專區網站是你們設的嗎\n是那你知道最後一次更新是什麼時候嗎你不知道上面寫的那麼清楚去年的12月25日到今天為止顯示能有七項執法尚未完備就是剛才次長說他有通過的法你也都還沒有update那到今天喔已經三個多月了\n完全都毫無進度那這個是否說你完全沒有實質進度那如果有進度為什麼網站不更新那如果連基本的資訊揭露都做不到你要怎麼談說你跟社會跟地方有合作呢好 跟委員報告那因為一月份要延長之後我們所有的剩下這些執法的部分\n我們原來都在布裡面已經在進最後的階段的部分我們就退回來依現在的法還有相規還有農業部相關的調整我們正在去所以這三個月內都沒有什麼值得可以update的東西嗎不是還是你們現在已經覺得這已經延遲六年了所以我們慢慢來沒有關係我現在想說的就是其中最關鍵的國土計畫土地使用管制規則到現在連草案的定稿都看不到\n這個你們訂稿了嗎我們有草案訂稿可是這個專區是最後的結果嘛法定程序完成那你要讓大家知道說我們訂稿中啊民眾要怎麼討論地方政府要怎麼準備你完全都沒有任何的information你特別設了一個網站你也可以不要設這個網站你設了一個網站之後你三個月都不update假設今天我不告訴你\n搞不好明年的今天我問你 你也都還沒有update那接下來我再請教那個農業部次長喔\n當初這個農業部有承諾說會處理農地分區的爭議也說了農業堆疊式補助然後也跟這個可能跟國土計畫法並沒有說相關直接連結的扣在一起那我也想請問一下次長那請問這三個月以來有沒有針對農一農二劃分的準則跟補貼的辦法有新的進展呢劃分的準則本來就已經就有\n我知道 但是大家很有疑慮啊 你劃分的準則大家都覺得太粗糙啦 你有沒有一些更細緻的規劃呢還是你覺得不需要改變這個是我們在榮譽榮那個很早就已經定案了 而且已經有共識的\n你跟誰的共識 你跟農民的共識嗎農民也有 也有學者專家還有各機關都有目前 目前喔 據我所知非常多的農業縣都對農一農二劃分的那個粗糙方式有所意見所以是農業部到現在不知道說有這樣子的大家有這樣的意見嗎還是你公文都隨便看一看 然後沒有仔細看嗎這是國家大政不能開玩笑的是啊 不能開玩笑啊我們變得非常清楚 這個委員可能\n可能是你所講的定義跟我是不知道你的定義事實上農醫農醫那個都很清楚你的農醫把一些沒有重化過的土地也化作農醫沒有農路沒有水路也可以當作農醫嗎那個是各縣市政府在劃分的時候把它劃進來那個是你們給的規範\n那是你們給的規範這不是委員可以讓我來念一下農醫的定義不需要我現在不需要你在這裡念我現在要提醒的是不管是農業部也好不管是國土署也好展延六年是希望能夠\n展現出更妥善的一個成績單而不是說你們可以研製六年 延宕六年 放著給他發燒不是這樣子 六年不是一個無限期啊可能時間一晃眼就過去了那如果到時候問題一樣存在的話那還是基層亂啊 民眾怨啊 民眾罵啊這樣的法案就沒有辦法轉變社會的觀感那當初他的這個\n政策正當性怎麼辦呢所以我很希望說我們今天既然是要討論國土計劃法這個延遲之後大家要怎麼把它完善我本席希望你們不要告訴我說我們都已經規劃好了\n規劃好了為什麼不能實施為什麼不能實施就是因為有疑慮嘛現在已經有22個縣當中剩下南投縣沒有出來我知道但是他們提出的還是有疑慮否則為什麼民進黨黨團他也支持要延役呢他也支持要延遲6年呢就是大家朝野\n唯一的共識就是這個法不夠周延需要再把它完善包括這個國土署絕對不是只有農業部你也背負非常重要的這個責任甚至國發會也是啊跨部會的協調要怎麼協調總不能讓他們自己他們兩邊對不上是不是國發會也要負一點責任呢我問國發會啊好 謝謝\n國發會針對這個國土計畫法有沒有在橫向溝通有沒有在協助農業部有沒有在協助內政部我們一直都有很密切的在做討論那我們像 怎麼討論我們有找那個國土署還有我們農業部這邊我們來討論但實際上我們也發現有一些執行上面其實目前這六年可能也必須要及時要做的事情\n這六年本席是希望說國發會你既然要幫忙整合的話你應該要有時程出來可能幾年到幾年你要完成什麼部分幾年到幾年你要怎麼樣多辦公廳會你必須要有一個期程而不是說漫長的這樣子等到可能要執行的前一年然後又突然發現這五年你們什麼都沒做是吧\n是是是 這個應該我覺得國土署目前都已經有進度而且農業部這裡也都看得到那進度也沒有今天委員會的內容也都沒有任何的報告啊是不是要做什麼事情 那我們在會後我再跟他們來是 如果你們討論之後也希望能夠儘速向本委員會提出報告說明 好嗎謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.809 --> 00:09.560\n主席我想請這個農業部次長跟我們國土署的副署長好\n\n00:14.679 --> 00:39.706\n好早那國土計畫法在去年年底完成三讀修法那確定再展延六年那這是連我們昭緯我們這個經濟委員會大家都一致支持的那去年立法院之所以通過展延修法呢是一個補課的機會我們看到我們希望期待看到一個完整的配套明確的路徑積極的溝通請問農業部跟內政部這三個月來\n\n00:44.167 --> 01:13.690\n有沒有什麼具體的規劃為之後做準備呢是我們已經把涉及到土地管制相關的規定的六個法六部法律啊全部把它修好而且已經送到行政院那其中四部已經完成行政院的這個審議另外還有兩部行政院退回來給我們要我們再做修正那這個的內容呢這六部法的內容大概會跟我們的農業部跟我們的農民有什麼相關呢對就是裡面涉及包括\n\n01:14.430 --> 01:39.755\n包括農業發展條例還有這個農產品市場交易法還有漁業法森林法以及水土保持法還有這個農地管制上坡地保育規則這些都跟農民的權利有直接的關係那接下來我再請教國土署一個問題就是說你知道國土計畫法跟執法的專區網站是你們設的嗎\n\n01:42.701 --> 02:06.440\n是那你知道最後一次更新是什麼時候嗎你不知道上面寫的那麼清楚去年的12月25日到今天為止顯示能有七項執法尚未完備就是剛才次長說他有通過的法你也都還沒有update那到今天喔已經三個多月了\n\n02:07.020 --> 02:28.926\n完全都毫無進度那這個是否說你完全沒有實質進度那如果有進度為什麼網站不更新那如果連基本的資訊揭露都做不到你要怎麼談說你跟社會跟地方有合作呢好跟委員報告那因為一月份要延長之後我們所有的剩下這些執法的部分\n\n02:29.346 --> 02:57.611\n我們原來都在布裡面已經在進最後的階段的部分我們就退回來依現在的法還有相規還有農業部相關的調整我們正在去所以這三個月內都沒有什麼值得可以update的東西嗎不是還是你們現在已經覺得這已經延遲六年了所以我們慢慢來沒有關係我現在想說的就是其中最關鍵的國土計畫土地使用管制規則到現在連草案的定稿都看不到\n\n02:59.420 --> 03:23.138\n這個你們訂稿了嗎我們有草案訂稿可是這個專區是最後的結果嘛法定程序完成那你要讓大家知道說我們訂稿中啊民眾要怎麼討論地方政府要怎麼準備你完全都沒有任何的information你特別設了一個網站你也可以不要設這個網站你設了一個網站之後你三個月都不update假設今天我不告訴你\n\n03:24.690 --> 03:31.016\n搞不好明年的今天我問你你也都還沒有update那接下來我再請教那個農業部次長喔\n\n03:32.788 --> 03:59.431\n當初這個農業部有承諾說會處理農地分區的爭議也說了農業堆疊式補助然後也跟這個可能跟國土計畫法並沒有說相關直接連結的扣在一起那我也想請問一下次長那請問這三個月以來有沒有針對農一農二劃分的準則跟補貼的辦法有新的進展呢劃分的準則本來就已經就有\n\n04:00.111 --> 04:15.652\n我知道但是大家很有疑慮啊你劃分的準則大家都覺得太粗糙啦你有沒有一些更細緻的規劃呢還是你覺得不需要改變這個是我們在榮譽榮那個很早就已經定案了而且已經有共識的\n\n04:16.192 --> 04:44.731\n你跟誰的共識你跟農民的共識嗎農民也有也有學者專家還有各機關都有目前目前喔據我所知非常多的農業縣都對農一農二劃分的那個粗糙方式有所意見所以是農業部到現在不知道說有這樣子的大家有這樣的意見嗎還是你公文都隨便看一看然後沒有仔細看嗎這是國家大政不能開玩笑的是啊不能開玩笑啊我們變得非常清楚這個委員可能\n\n04:45.331 --> 05:02.629\n可能是你所講的定義跟我是不知道你的定義事實上農醫農醫那個都很清楚你的農醫把一些沒有重化過的土地也化作農醫沒有農路沒有水路也可以當作農醫嗎那個是各縣市政府在劃分的時候把它劃進來那個是你們給的規範\n\n05:05.651 --> 05:20.816\n那是你們給的規範這不是委員可以讓我來念一下農醫的定義不需要我現在不需要你在這裡念我現在要提醒的是不管是農業部也好不管是國土署也好展延六年是希望能夠\n\n05:22.216 --> 05:29.778\n展現出更妥善的一個成績單而不是說你們可以研製六年延宕六年放著給他發燒不是這樣子六年不是一個無限期啊可能時間一晃眼就過去了那如果到時候問題一樣存在的話那還是基層亂啊民眾怨啊民眾罵啊這樣的法案就沒有辦法轉變社會的觀感那當初他的這個\n\n05:48.824 --> 05:54.769\n政策正當性怎麼辦呢所以我很希望說我們今天既然是要討論國土計劃法這個延遲之後大家要怎麼把它完善我本席希望你們不要告訴我說我們都已經規劃好了\n\n06:04.877 --> 06:07.859\n規劃好了為什麼不能實施為什麼不能實施就是因為有疑慮嘛現在已經有22個縣當中剩下南投縣沒有出來我知道但是他們提出的還是有疑慮否則為什麼民進黨黨團他也支持要延役呢他也支持要延遲6年呢就是大家朝野\n\n06:25.131 --> 06:40.981\n唯一的共識就是這個法不夠周延需要再把它完善包括這個國土署絕對不是只有農業部你也背負非常重要的這個責任甚至國發會也是啊跨部會的協調要怎麼協調總不能讓他們自己他們兩邊對不上是不是國發會也要負一點責任呢我問國發會啊好謝謝\n\n06:54.400 --> 07:00.765\n國發會針對這個國土計畫法有沒有在橫向溝通有沒有在協助農業部有沒有在協助內政部我們一直都有很密切的在做討論那我們像怎麼討論我們有找那個國土署還有我們農業部這邊我們來討論但實際上我們也發現有一些執行上面其實目前這六年可能也必須要及時要做的事情\n\n07:21.159 --> 07:44.975\n這六年本席是希望說國發會你既然要幫忙整合的話你應該要有時程出來可能幾年到幾年你要完成什麼部分幾年到幾年你要怎麼樣多辦公廳會你必須要有一個期程而不是說漫長的這樣子等到可能要執行的前一年然後又突然發現這五年你們什麼都沒做是吧\n\n07:45.615 --> 08:07.009\n是是是這個應該我覺得國土署目前都已經有進度而且農業部這裡也都看得到那進度也沒有今天委員會的內容也都沒有任何的報告啊是不是要做什麼事情那我們在會後我再跟他們來是如果你們討論之後也希望能夠儘速向本委員會提出報告說明好嗎謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.809,"end":9.56,"text":"主席我想請這個農業部次長跟我們國土署的副署長好"},{"start":14.679,"end":39.706,"text":"好 早那國土計畫法在去年年底完成三讀修法那確定再展延六年那這是連我們昭緯我們這個經濟委員會大家都一致支持的那去年立法院之所以通過展延修法呢是一個補課的機會我們看到我們希望期待看到一個完整的配套明確的路徑 積極的溝通請問農業部跟內政部這三個月來"},{"start":44.167,"end":73.69,"text":"有沒有什麼具體的規劃為之後做準備呢是 我們已經把涉及到土地管制相關的規定的六個法 六部法律啊全部把它修好 而且已經送到行政院那其中四部已經完成行政院的這個審議另外還有兩部行政院退回來給我們 要我們再做修正那這個的內容呢這六部法的內容大概會跟我們的農業部跟我們的農民有什麼相關呢對 就是裡面涉及包括"},{"start":74.43,"end":99.755,"text":"包括農業發展條例還有這個農產品市場交易法還有漁業法森林法以及水土保持法還有這個農地管制上坡地保育規則這些都跟農民的權利有直接的關係那接下來我再請教國土署一個問題就是說你知道國土計畫法跟執法的專區網站是你們設的嗎"},{"start":102.701,"end":126.44,"text":"是那你知道最後一次更新是什麼時候嗎你不知道上面寫的那麼清楚去年的12月25日到今天為止顯示能有七項執法尚未完備就是剛才次長說他有通過的法你也都還沒有update那到今天喔已經三個多月了"},{"start":127.02,"end":148.926,"text":"完全都毫無進度那這個是否說你完全沒有實質進度那如果有進度為什麼網站不更新那如果連基本的資訊揭露都做不到你要怎麼談說你跟社會跟地方有合作呢好 跟委員報告那因為一月份要延長之後我們所有的剩下這些執法的部分"},{"start":149.346,"end":177.611,"text":"我們原來都在布裡面已經在進最後的階段的部分我們就退回來依現在的法還有相規還有農業部相關的調整我們正在去所以這三個月內都沒有什麼值得可以update的東西嗎不是還是你們現在已經覺得這已經延遲六年了所以我們慢慢來沒有關係我現在想說的就是其中最關鍵的國土計畫土地使用管制規則到現在連草案的定稿都看不到"},{"start":179.42,"end":203.138,"text":"這個你們訂稿了嗎我們有草案訂稿可是這個專區是最後的結果嘛法定程序完成那你要讓大家知道說我們訂稿中啊民眾要怎麼討論地方政府要怎麼準備你完全都沒有任何的information你特別設了一個網站你也可以不要設這個網站你設了一個網站之後你三個月都不update假設今天我不告訴你"},{"start":204.69,"end":211.016,"text":"搞不好明年的今天我問你 你也都還沒有update那接下來我再請教那個農業部次長喔"},{"start":212.788,"end":239.431,"text":"當初這個農業部有承諾說會處理農地分區的爭議也說了農業堆疊式補助然後也跟這個可能跟國土計畫法並沒有說相關直接連結的扣在一起那我也想請問一下次長那請問這三個月以來有沒有針對農一農二劃分的準則跟補貼的辦法有新的進展呢劃分的準則本來就已經就有"},{"start":240.111,"end":255.652,"text":"我知道 但是大家很有疑慮啊 你劃分的準則大家都覺得太粗糙啦 你有沒有一些更細緻的規劃呢還是你覺得不需要改變這個是我們在榮譽榮那個很早就已經定案了 而且已經有共識的"},{"start":256.192,"end":284.731,"text":"你跟誰的共識 你跟農民的共識嗎農民也有 也有學者專家還有各機關都有目前 目前喔 據我所知非常多的農業縣都對農一農二劃分的那個粗糙方式有所意見所以是農業部到現在不知道說有這樣子的大家有這樣的意見嗎還是你公文都隨便看一看 然後沒有仔細看嗎這是國家大政不能開玩笑的是啊 不能開玩笑啊我們變得非常清楚 這個委員可能"},{"start":285.331,"end":302.629,"text":"可能是你所講的定義跟我是不知道你的定義事實上農醫農醫那個都很清楚你的農醫把一些沒有重化過的土地也化作農醫沒有農路沒有水路也可以當作農醫嗎那個是各縣市政府在劃分的時候把它劃進來那個是你們給的規範"},{"start":305.651,"end":320.816,"text":"那是你們給的規範這不是委員可以讓我來念一下農醫的定義不需要我現在不需要你在這裡念我現在要提醒的是不管是農業部也好不管是國土署也好展延六年是希望能夠"},{"start":322.216,"end":329.778,"text":"展現出更妥善的一個成績單而不是說你們可以研製六年 延宕六年 放著給他發燒不是這樣子 六年不是一個無限期啊可能時間一晃眼就過去了那如果到時候問題一樣存在的話那還是基層亂啊 民眾怨啊 民眾罵啊這樣的法案就沒有辦法轉變社會的觀感那當初他的這個"},{"start":348.824,"end":354.769,"text":"政策正當性怎麼辦呢所以我很希望說我們今天既然是要討論國土計劃法這個延遲之後大家要怎麼把它完善我本席希望你們不要告訴我說我們都已經規劃好了"},{"start":364.877,"end":367.859,"text":"規劃好了為什麼不能實施為什麼不能實施就是因為有疑慮嘛現在已經有22個縣當中剩下南投縣沒有出來我知道但是他們提出的還是有疑慮否則為什麼民進黨黨團他也支持要延役呢他也支持要延遲6年呢就是大家朝野"},{"start":385.131,"end":400.981,"text":"唯一的共識就是這個法不夠周延需要再把它完善包括這個國土署絕對不是只有農業部你也背負非常重要的這個責任甚至國發會也是啊跨部會的協調要怎麼協調總不能讓他們自己他們兩邊對不上是不是國發會也要負一點責任呢我問國發會啊好 謝謝"},{"start":414.4,"end":420.765,"text":"國發會針對這個國土計畫法有沒有在橫向溝通有沒有在協助農業部有沒有在協助內政部我們一直都有很密切的在做討論那我們像 怎麼討論我們有找那個國土署還有我們農業部這邊我們來討論但實際上我們也發現有一些執行上面其實目前這六年可能也必須要及時要做的事情"},{"start":441.159,"end":464.975,"text":"這六年本席是希望說國發會你既然要幫忙整合的話你應該要有時程出來可能幾年到幾年你要完成什麼部分幾年到幾年你要怎麼樣多辦公廳會你必須要有一個期程而不是說漫長的這樣子等到可能要執行的前一年然後又突然發現這五年你們什麼都沒做是吧"},{"start":465.615,"end":487.009,"text":"是是是 這個應該我覺得國土署目前都已經有進度而且農業部這裡也都看得到那進度也沒有今天委員會的內容也都沒有任何的報告啊是不是要做什麼事情 那我們在會後我再跟他們來是 如果你們討論之後也希望能夠儘速向本委員會提出報告說明 好嗎謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":298,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（9時58分）主席，請農業部次長跟國土署副署長。"],["主席：請。"],["胡次長忠一：委員好。"],["張委員嘉郡：早，國土計畫法在去年年底完成三讀修法，確定再展延6年，這是連我們召委、經濟委員會的大家都一致支持的，去年立法院之所以通過展延修法，是一個補課的機會，我們期待看到完整的配套、明確的路徑、積極的溝通，請問農業部跟內政部這3個月來有沒有什麼具體的規劃，為之後做準備呢？"],["胡次長忠一：是，我們已經把涉及到土地管制相關規定的6部法律全部已經完成修訂，並陳報到行政院審議，其中4部已經完成審議，另外2部被退回需再做修正，所以在法規方面……"],["張委員嘉郡：那這6部法的內容大概會跟農業部、跟農民有什麼相關呢？"],["胡次長忠一：就是其中涉及農業發展條例、農產品市場交易法、漁業法、森林法、水土保持法，還有農地管制規則、山坡地保育條例，都跟農民權利有直接的關係。"],["張委員嘉郡：接下來我再請教國土署一個問題，國土計畫法跟子法的專區網站是你們設的嗎？"],["徐副署長燕興：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：那你知道最後一次更新是什麼時候嗎？你不知道，上面寫得那麼清楚，去年的12月25日，到今天為止顯示仍有7項子法尚未完備，就是剛才次長說有通過的法，你也都還沒有update，到今天已經三個多月了，完全沒有實質進度，如果有進度，為什麼網站不更新？如果連基本的資訊揭露都做不到，你要怎麼說你跟社會、跟地方有合作呢？"],["徐副署長燕興：跟委員報告，因為1月份延長之後，所有剩下的子法原來已經在部裡面進行最後的階段，我們撤回來，依現在的法、鄉規，還有農業部相關的條件，正在做調整。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以這三個月內都沒有什麼值得update的東西嗎？"],["徐副署長燕興：不是……"],["張委員嘉郡：還是你們現在覺得已經延遲6年了，所以慢慢來沒有關係。我現在想說的就是，其中最關鍵的國土計畫土地使用管制規則，到現在連草案的定稿都看不到，你們定稿了嗎？"],["徐副署長燕興：我們有草案定稿，可是這個專區是最後的結果，法定程序完成……"],["張委員嘉郡：那你要讓大家知道在定稿中啊，民眾要怎麼討論、地方政府要怎麼準備，你完全都沒有任何的information，你還特別設了一個網站，你也可以不要設這個網站，你設了一個網站之後，三個月都不update，假設今天我不告訴你，搞不好明年的今天我問你，你也都還沒有update。","接下來我再請教農業部次長，當初農業部有承諾會處理農地分區的爭議，也說了農業堆疊式補助可能跟國土計畫法並沒有直接連結的扣在一起，我想請問一下次長，這三個月以來針對農1、農2劃分準則跟補貼辦法有沒有新的進展？"],["胡次長忠一：是，劃分的準則本來就有。"],["張委員嘉郡：我知道，但是大家很有疑慮啊！大家都覺得你劃分的準則太粗糙啦，你有沒有一些更細緻的規劃呢？還是你覺得不需要改變？"],["胡次長忠一：農1、農2很早就已經定案了，而且已經有共識的，比如說……"],["張委員嘉郡：你跟誰的共識？你跟農民的共識嗎？"],["胡次長忠一：農民也有，也有學者專家，還有各機關都有，所以……"],["張委員嘉郡：目前據我所知，非常多的農業縣都對農1、農2粗糙的劃分方式有意見，所以農業部到現在不知道大家有這樣的意見嗎？還是你公文都隨便看一看，沒有仔細看嗎？"],["胡次長忠一：這是國家大政，不能開玩笑的。"],["張委員嘉郡：是啊，不能開玩笑啊！"],["胡次長忠一：我們訂得非常清楚，委員可能是……"],["張委員嘉郡：什麼？"],["胡次長忠一：您所講的定義，我是不知道您的定義。事實上農1、農2那個都很清楚的。"],["張委員嘉郡：你的農1把一些沒有重劃過的土地也劃作農1，沒有農路、沒有水路也可以當作農1嗎？"],["胡次長忠一：那個是各縣市政府在劃分的時候把它劃進來。"],["張委員嘉郡：那是你們給的規範。"],["胡次長忠一：我現在宣讀一下，可以嗎？是不是委員可以讓我來唸一下農1的定義？"],["張委員嘉郡：不需要，我現在不需要你在這裡唸，我現在要提醒的是，不管是農業部也好，國土署也好，展延6年是希望能夠呈現更好的成績單，而不是你們可以延宕6年，放著讓它長草，不是這樣子！6年不是無限期啊，可能時間一晃眼就過去了，如果到時候問題一樣存在的話，那還是基層亂啊！民眾怨啊！民眾罵啊！這樣的法案就沒有辦法轉變社會的觀感，那當初它的政策正當性怎麼辦呢？今天既然是要討論國土計畫法延遲之後大家要怎麼把它完善，本席希望你們不要告訴我說，你們都已經規劃好了。規劃好了，為什麼不能實施？就是因為有疑慮嘛！"],["胡次長忠一：現在22個縣當中剩下南投縣沒有提出來……"],["張委員嘉郡：我知道，但是他們提出的還是有疑慮……"],["胡次長忠一：其他都已經提出，表示是可以實施的啊！"],["張委員嘉郡：否則為什麼民進黨黨團也支持要延遲6年呢？因為朝野唯一的共識就是這個法不夠周延，需要再把它完善。絕對不是只有農業部，包括國土署也背負非常重要的責任，甚至國發會也是，跨部會的協調要怎麼進行？總不能讓他們兩邊對不上，是不是國發會也要負一點責任呢？"],["胡次長忠一：如果……"],["張委員嘉郡：我問國發會啊！"],["胡次長忠一：好，謝謝。"],["張委員嘉郡：國發會針對國土計畫法有沒有在橫向溝通？有沒有在協助農業部？有沒有在協助內政部？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：是，我們一直都有很密切的在做討論，像……"],["張委員嘉郡：怎麼討論？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：我們有找國土署還有農業部來討論，實際上我們也發現有一些執行上面這6年必須急著要做的事情。"],["張委員嘉郡：對啊，這6年本席是希望國發會既然要幫忙整合的話，就應該要有時程出來，可能幾年到幾年你要完成什麼，幾年到幾年你要怎麼樣多辦公聽會，你必須要有一個期程，而不是漫長的等到可能要執行的前一年，突然發現這5年你們什麼都沒做，是吧？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：是、是、是，其實國土署目前都已經有進度，而且農業部這裡也都看得到。"],["張委員嘉郡：那今天委員會的內容也都沒有任何的進度報告啊，是不是？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：對，哪一個部分要做什麼事情，我會後再跟他們來詳細瞭解一下。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，您討論之後，也希望能夠儘速向本委員會提出報告說明，好嗎？謝謝。"],["彭副主任委員立沛：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張嘉郡委員。","下一位請鄭正鈐委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖先翔","陳冠廷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴惠員"],"page_start":369,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、農業部部長、內政部首長、財政部首長、行政院主計總處首長就\n「鄉村發展總體檢討及如何提升城鄉發展韌性之規劃方向」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00006"}}}