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技術人員在台灣確實是過去有過的立法後來因為社會上對於所謂沒有經過國家考試就擔任公務人員的概念我們台灣的社會沒有支持所以立法院就把他廢止掉了但是本席一開始其實講的就是說你們在人員的控管上現在數字雖然好像很好看但是沒有經過公務人員考試的約聘顧的數量也很多啊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 384.114, \"end\": 384.234, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 384.234, \"end\": 384.414, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 384.414, \"end\": 384.815, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 384.815, \"end\": 385.055, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"技\", \"start\": 385.055, \"end\": 385.315, \"score\": 0.698}, {\"word\": \"術\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 385.315, \"end\": 385.595, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 385.595, \"end\": 385.855, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 385.855, \"end\": 386.536, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 386.536, \"end\": 387.116, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 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00:00:40,458\n好這個前言是還有那個我們考試院同仁和立院同仁大家早今天本席在這邊要跟您還有整個院裡面探討幾個問題那當然前幾天你們也有來拜會我們已經就一些基礎的問題也做了一些意見的交流那今天這個幾個議題我基本上其實是\n\n3\n00:00:42,659 --> 00:01:03,018\n優關所有公務人員的生計還有尊嚴那更直接的影響到的是政府效能跟國家治理的幾個議題那就包括第一個我們其實在交流的時候談到的技術人員的流失但是少子化帶來的人力短缺那高齡照護氣候變遷能源轉型的危機都\n\n4\n00:01:04,579 --> 00:01:25,214\n直接衝擊或間接衝擊這樣的問題那第二個部分是退休制度讓退休人員的保障受到一些影響再來是職場霸凌跟我們的薪資結構好多的問題的重重交匯下導致我們現在其實在整個制度上我們應該做一個更深層的討論跟整理\n\n5\n00:01:26,495 --> 00:01:54,356\n近20年來我們看到整個中央政府我們推動的地方化法人化跟委外化的這樣一個策略乍看之下好像成功的將公務人員的人數控制在法定上限內但實際上卻使得非公務人員的政府聘僱人員快速增加那這看起來好像解決了公務人員人數限制的問題但是事實上卻暴露出公務體系人力的嚴重缺口你我都知道\n\n6\n00:01:54,716 --> 00:02:11,296\n正式公務人員跟約聘僱人員的權責各有不同所以在私下我們也談到土木技師還有這個機械技師等等技術型相關的這個領域其實目前流失的很嚴重我相信很多委員都注意到\n\n7\n00:02:12,097 --> 00:02:36,345\n但是我們談到的相關的問題除了我們知道的軍警、消醫護這幾類都一直在缺現在技術人員的缺口也非常的大但是根本的原因其實是在職場的現實跟工作期望的嚴重落差所以這個市場上許多的技術人員都跑到了自由市場要進入到工領域對他們來講可能\n\n8\n00:02:38,326 --> 00:02:58,480\n繁雜的行政工作跟公文的處理讓他們的技術沒有辦法發揮另外一個因素是薪資待遇跟職場條件的落後那當前的民間企業薪資水準都已經超越了公務體系所以年輕人對於工作上的認知現在也截然不同那年輕人更注重職癌的發展\n\n9\n00:02:58,940 --> 00:03:19,887\n還有生活的品質那需要有多一點彈性跟充分能夠展現個人能力的環境職場所以工作體系當中的這個職位制度還有許多的行政包袱跟為長官侍從的職場文化跟新進的年輕世代可能有很大的落差那不知道秘書長您對於這個部分的一個看法\n\n10\n00:03:21,458 --> 00:03:36,319\n委員提出問題有好幾個不同的面向這裡面包含就是說可能過去政府只要辦考試人就源源不斷地進來但現在我們應該要更注重就是讓有志工職或者是在可能有考慮來公佈門\n\n11\n00:03:37,721 --> 00:03:53,424\n求職的人要更了解他要面對的未來到底是什麼樣一個工作的性質降低那個期待落差還有甚至一些誤解所以為什麼我們比較積極的要走到校園裡面去溝通但另外一方面他還有整個工作環境上的問題\n\n12\n00:03:53,985 --> 00:04:12,885\n那裡面包含待遇這有很多是用人機關跟行政部門的角色所以您在我們私下溝通的時候也談到你們要跟各單位來進行那本期希望這個進度上能夠更加快一點不希望像早上有委員提到的那我們的任期都過了真正該處理跟解決問題都在演繹當中所以我希望整個腳步能夠變快\n\n13\n00:04:14,266 --> 00:04:37,800\n好所以我們剛才講到這個待遇結構還有激勵制度那早上我聽到有委員進來說你們的相關的這個激勵的這個經費今年會因為某種原因而被減少我相信這個問題是不會發生的吧因為我們在這個整個待遇結構還有激勵制度目前都其實應該要更積極的來作為我們不希望這中間會有一些狀況應該不會吧秘書長\n\n14\n00:04:39,926 --> 00:05:03,684\n因為這個我們都希望能夠提高即時獎勵的額度跟即時的獎勵那不過因為現在大家的預算都有被某種程度的是的所以你們就更積極的作為那我相信所有的委員對我們的這個預算都非常的支持所以該做的該解凍的該做報告處理的該溝通的我請你們也是加快腳步來做好不好好\n\n15\n00:05:04,565 --> 00:05:18,294\n那我們現在談到的這個親自結構還有我們整個人員流失問題本席今天提出一個方式讓你來考量看看我知道在過去在這個技術人員的任用有一個\n\n16\n00:05:19,349 --> 00:05:47,704\n很有效的一個條例也就是技術人員的任用條例事實上在過去解決了很多技術人員不足的問題現今我們有沒有可能在這種技術人員任用條例的一個方向上來做一個處理然後仿造鄰近的韓國、日本、新加坡更積極改善公務人員的待遇然後引進績效獎金等激勵制度來提高公務人員的生產力本席這邊也提供您一些參考\n\n17\n00:05:48,604 --> 00:06:12,856\n新加坡都是根據GDP的成長率來發放年度經濟增長獎金這樣就大幅的提升整個的競爭率跟效率所以本席這邊正式的提出我們有沒有可能反過去技術人員任用條例的這個方向來解決現階段人力不足的問題第二個部分更明確的調整公務人員的待遇結構來仿效\n\n18\n00:06:15,612 --> 00:06:22,801\n我們周遭的先進國家他們的這個做法剛才本席其實也提供一些參考是部長這邊要來回答嗎\n\n19\n00:06:24,114 --> 00:06:47,331\n我跟委員報告技術人員在台灣確實是過去有過的立法後來因為社會上對於所謂沒有經過國家考試就擔任公務人員的概念我們台灣的社會沒有支持所以立法院就把他廢止掉了但是本席一開始其實講的就是說你們在人員的控管上現在數字雖然好像很好看但是沒有經過公務人員考試的約聘顧的數量也很多啊\n\n20\n00:06:47,771 --> 00:07:04,372\n所以現在我們真的技術人員其實是缺乏我們確實也碰到這個問題所以我們是不是要在整個區塊結構上去做處理我同意這樣一個講解就是說所以我們現在有專技人員轉任公務人員的那個制度簡單你如果是專技人員你可以不用再參加國家\n\n21\n00:07:05,592 --> 00:07:15,160\n考試了你就直接由機關科營用於這是已經在職場內的嗎沒有沒有外面的我們可以從外面非限職的人員只要你具有專業證照那他其實牽涉到問題就本席剛才也有講的績效獎勵跟職場環境那這個整體來考量\n\n22\n00:07:22,126 --> 00:07:35,494\n雖然你們有這樣一個辦法但是政執行上是不是能夠達到我們的期待這其實還有一大段時間沒有錯待遇制度一環當然待遇是行政院負責不過行政院很努力在希望針對不同類型的特性的人在處理\n\n23\n00:07:38,015 --> 00:07:59,322\n在私下然後跟剛才也都一直講你們需要趕快跟更積極的一個溝通那我們都不希望這個延宕很多年所以本席剛才指出來的問題有好幾個面向這面向還有互相影響所以針對這個部分而不是只有方法就好了而是這個方法有沒有效這個是本席未來其實要再監管的一個很重要的方向好不好好謝謝\n\n24\n00:08:00,962 --> 00:08:16,817\n接下來也有幾位委員提到對於公務人員的職場倫理還有壓力和工作環境我們知道現在的工作環境安全感跟心理健康其實對效能上有很大的影響尤其是在公務服務上\n\n25\n00:08:17,498 --> 00:08:32,380\n但是這幾年因為職場倫理的關係還有職場環境的關係其實也有很大的衝擊所以根據考選部的資料目前參加高普考過去十年參加高普考的報考人數已經從2013年的\n\n26\n00:08:36,384 --> 00:08:55,311\n146209人降到2022年的71284人那這個下降幅度很大耶51.25%可能有很多原因本席不希望在聽到剛才你們說我們數字上是OK的但是事實上公務人員跟約聘僱還有我們剛才講的真正在流失職場所需要的這個部分本席希望很精確的來探討\n\n27\n00:08:56,632 --> 00:09:06,126\n不知道目前在職場倫理所造成的心理壓力跟職場事情下降的狀況院裡面有沒有一些可以處理跟檢討的方案\n\n28\n00:09:07,418 --> 00:09:30,204\n我想職場霸凌這個議題在公部門這邊得到很大的重視所以我想這就是我們為什麼在近期這幾個月當中密集的來研議這個保障法、安慰辦法跟考機法的相關制度就是希望能夠藉由這個制度的建立能夠導正公務員內部如果有一些比較在管教領導上面的不當的作為能夠予以導正\n\n29\n00:09:31,898 --> 00:09:48,906\n是的那本席在這邊也提醒不要矯枉過正那該怎麼樣在這樣一個倫理上讓所有的東西能夠正常的運行那也不會去衝擊到彼此的一個權益那我相信很多委員其實都關心也提出很具體的方案\n\n30\n00:09:49,306 --> 00:10:16,684\n但本席這邊就針對這個部分來談一下身心價本席過去在大學教書其實大學已經開始推動學生的身心調適價那也代表了社會上普遍認知心理健康對於工作與學習的重要性但是大學都已經開始在推動了我們政府機關卻還沒有全面制度性的提供類似的保障那是不是可以具體說明我們目前身心價調適請假的規劃進度是如何\n\n31\n00:10:19,426 --> 00:10:36,815\n什麼時候可以開始實施因為行政院已經把建議案送到考試院那我們現在啟動這個要開始啟動預告那預告完以後呢我想這個應該我們之前就跟機關討論過應該是不會有太大意見那我們就把修正考試規則送到考試院去那由考試院最後來做核定\n\n32\n00:10:37,695 --> 00:11:01,353\n同樣的不要太久好嗎本席這邊提出兩個概念兩個建議第一個就是說本席知道現在好像在人事長在過去備詢的時候蘇人事長他這邊備詢的時候有提到說基本上在七天市假裡面要挪三天當升薪假本席這邊建議一下\n\n33\n00:11:02,774 --> 00:11:23,440\n是不是可以外加三天升薪假在七天假之外外加三天升薪假這樣感覺比較實質這是一個想法跟建議然後第二個部分是那當我們有升薪假的時候有沒有明確的配套措施讓申請這樣子假的這個同仁就是申請升薪假的同仁避免被貼標籤被歧視\n\n34\n00:11:26,041 --> 00:11:47,004\n被遭受不公平的對待那這個部分本席希望考試院有一些做法那不知道目前有沒有這樣一個想法我想這個委員討論議題還有這些議題在行政院討論過程都有一些意見充分交換那我們我想大部分的譬如像說我們不會讓他有被標籤化這個事情應該是蠻確定的事情我們會朝這個方向來努力\n\n35\n00:11:47,486 --> 00:12:08,294\n那本席希望有更具體的一個報告那針對這個部分好不好剛才本席提的這個議題上的這個兩點好那最後本席這邊提醒一下這應該跟權序部比較相關公務人員的這個退休撫恤的這個制度那其實2018年蔡總統這邊推動的年改之後呢已經這個所得替代率\n\n36\n00:12:10,015 --> 00:12:24,623\n從75%降到67%然後未來還要再降到60%那當然啦你們這邊有提到說因為這樣子的降法是擔心退伏基金提前用完未來50年挹注的基金會減少2800億\n\n37\n00:12:27,604 --> 00:12:53,491\n這是你們所提出來的這個回應但是本席要問的是基金的永續基金的永續可以拿犧牲退休人員的基本生活做代價嗎這是很重要的概念喔你的永續是你的能力跟方法但是退休公務人員的基本生活是他們過去在投入這個領域之前就有一些思考的所以這樣的\n\n38\n00:12:55,578 --> 00:13:13,990\n回應跟這樣子的理由可以拿來犧牲退休人員的基本生活嗎我希望考試院能夠好好的思考我們拿一個對比好了政府近年來稅收超徵嚴重今年超收5000億去年4000億前年3800億所以你們說未來50年會少了2800億那請問這些超徵跟你們所提出來的回應這樣子的邏輯脈絡\n\n39\n00:13:25,898 --> 00:13:44,168\n合理嗎是不是可以給本席一個報告來針對這一點所以請你們好好再評估政府在財政能力之內調整退休金政策的空間跟可能性好嗎好沒有問題會後再給委員一個報告好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8607\t18594\t主席謝謝教委我們我本來要一旦前言讓秘書長再做一下不過大家都這樣看著我我就只好請秘書長先上來\n21069\t40458\t好這個前言是還有那個我們考試院同仁和立院同仁大家早今天本席在這邊要跟您還有整個院裡面探討幾個問題那當然前幾天你們也有來拜會我們已經就一些基礎的問題也做了一些意見的交流那今天這個幾個議題我基本上其實是\n42659\t63018\t優關所有公務人員的生計還有尊嚴那更直接的影響到的是政府效能跟國家治理的幾個議題那就包括第一個我們其實在交流的時候談到的技術人員的流失但是少子化帶來的人力短缺那高齡照護氣候變遷能源轉型的危機都\n64579\t85214\t直接衝擊或間接衝擊這樣的問題那第二個部分是退休制度讓退休人員的保障受到一些影響再來是職場霸凌跟我們的薪資結構好多的問題的重重交匯下導致我們現在其實在整個制度上我們應該做一個更深層的討論跟整理\n86495\t114356\t近20年來我們看到整個中央政府我們推動的地方化法人化跟委外化的這樣一個策略乍看之下好像成功的將公務人員的人數控制在法定上限內但實際上卻使得非公務人員的政府聘僱人員快速增加那這看起來好像解決了公務人員人數限制的問題但是事實上卻暴露出公務體系人力的嚴重缺口你我都知道\n114716\t131296\t正式公務人員跟約聘僱人員的權責各有不同所以在私下我們也談到土木技師還有這個機械技師等等技術型相關的這個領域其實目前流失的很嚴重我相信很多委員都注意到\n132097\t156345\t但是我們談到的相關的問題除了我們知道的軍警、消醫護這幾類都一直在缺現在技術人員的缺口也非常的大但是根本的原因其實是在職場的現實跟工作期望的嚴重落差所以這個市場上許多的技術人員都跑到了自由市場要進入到工領域對他們來講可能\n158326\t178480\t繁雜的行政工作跟公文的處理讓他們的技術沒有辦法發揮另外一個因素是薪資待遇跟職場條件的落後那當前的民間企業薪資水準都已經超越了公務體系所以年輕人對於工作上的認知現在也截然不同那年輕人更注重職癌的發展\n178940\t199887\t還有生活的品質那需要有多一點彈性跟充分能夠展現個人能力的環境職場所以工作體系當中的這個職位制度還有許多的行政包袱跟為長官侍從的職場文化跟新進的年輕世代可能有很大的落差那不知道秘書長您對於這個部分的一個看法\n201458\t216319\t委員提出問題有好幾個不同的面向這裡面包含就是說可能過去政府只要辦考試人就源源不斷地進來但現在我們應該要更注重就是讓有志工職或者是在可能有考慮來公佈門\n217721\t233424\t求職的人要更了解他要面對的未來到底是什麼樣一個工作的性質降低那個期待落差還有甚至一些誤解所以為什麼我們比較積極的要走到校園裡面去溝通但另外一方面他還有整個工作環境上的問題\n233985\t252885\t那裡面包含待遇這有很多是用人機關跟行政部門的角色所以您在我們私下溝通的時候也談到你們要跟各單位來進行那本期希望這個進度上能夠更加快一點不希望像早上有委員提到的那我們的任期都過了真正該處理跟解決問題都在演繹當中所以我希望整個腳步能夠變快\n254266\t277800\t好所以我們剛才講到這個待遇結構還有激勵制度那早上我聽到有委員進來說你們的相關的這個激勵的這個經費今年會因為某種原因而被減少我相信這個問題是不會發生的吧因為我們在這個整個待遇結構還有激勵制度目前都其實應該要更積極的來作為我們不希望這中間會有一些狀況應該不會吧秘書長\n279926\t303684\t因為這個我們都希望能夠提高即時獎勵的額度跟即時的獎勵那不過因為現在大家的預算都有被某種程度的是的所以你們就更積極的作為那我相信所有的委員對我們的這個預算都非常的支持所以該做的該解凍的該做報告處理的該溝通的我請你們也是加快腳步來做好不好好\n304565\t318294\t那我們現在談到的這個親自結構還有我們整個人員流失問題本席今天提出一個方式讓你來考量看看我知道在過去在這個技術人員的任用有一個\n319349\t347704\t很有效的一個條例也就是技術人員的任用條例事實上在過去解決了很多技術人員不足的問題現今我們有沒有可能在這種技術人員任用條例的一個方向上來做一個處理然後仿造鄰近的韓國、日本、新加坡更積極改善公務人員的待遇然後引進績效獎金等激勵制度來提高公務人員的生產力本席這邊也提供您一些參考\n348604\t372856\t新加坡都是根據GDP的成長率來發放年度經濟增長獎金這樣就大幅的提升整個的競爭率跟效率所以本席這邊正式的提出我們有沒有可能反過去技術人員任用條例的這個方向來解決現階段人力不足的問題第二個部分更明確的調整公務人員的待遇結構來仿效\n375612\t382801\t我們周遭的先進國家他們的這個做法剛才本席其實也提供一些參考是部長這邊要來回答嗎\n384114\t407331\t我跟委員報告 技術人員在台灣確實是過去有過的立法後來因為社會上對於所謂沒有經過國家考試就擔任公務人員的概念我們台灣的社會沒有支持所以立法院就把他廢止掉了但是本席一開始其實講的就是說你們在人員的控管上現在數字雖然好像很好看但是沒有經過公務人員考試的約聘顧的數量也很多啊\n407771\t424372\t所以現在我們真的技術人員其實是缺乏我們確實也碰到這個問題所以我們是不是要在整個區塊結構上去做處理我同意這樣一個講解就是說所以我們現在有專技人員轉任公務人員的那個制度簡單你如果是專技人員你可以不用再參加國家\n425592\t435160\t考試了你就直接由機關科營用於這是已經在職場內的嗎沒有沒有外面的我們可以從外面非限職的人員只要你具有專業證照那他其實牽涉到問題就本席剛才也有講的績效獎勵跟職場環境那這個整體來考量\n442126\t455494\t雖然你們有這樣一個辦法但是政執行上是不是能夠達到我們的期待這其實還有一大段時間沒有錯 待遇制度一環當然待遇是行政院負責不過行政院很努力在希望針對不同類型的特性的人在處理\n458015\t479322\t在私下然後跟剛才也都一直講你們需要趕快跟更積極的一個溝通那我們都不希望這個延宕很多年所以本席剛才指出來的問題有好幾個面向這面向還有互相影響所以針對這個部分而不是只有方法就好了而是這個方法有沒有效這個是本席未來其實要再監管的一個很重要的方向好不好好 謝謝\n480962\t496817\t接下來也有幾位委員提到對於公務人員的職場倫理還有壓力和工作環境我們知道現在的工作環境安全感跟心理健康其實對效能上有很大的影響尤其是在公務服務上\n497498\t512380\t但是這幾年因為職場倫理的關係還有職場環境的關係其實也有很大的衝擊所以根據考選部的資料目前參加高普考過去十年參加高普考的報考人數已經從2013年的\n516384\t535311\t146209人降到2022年的71284人那這個下降幅度很大耶51.25%可能有很多原因本席不希望在聽到剛才你們說我們數字上是OK的但是事實上公務人員跟約聘僱還有我們剛才講的真正在流失職場所需要的這個部分本席希望很精確的來探討\n536632\t546126\t不知道目前在職場倫理所造成的心理壓力跟職場事情下降的狀況院裡面有沒有一些可以處理跟檢討的方案\n547418\t570204\t我想職場霸凌這個議題在公部門這邊得到很大的重視所以我想這就是我們為什麼在近期這幾個月當中密集的來研議這個保障法、安慰辦法跟考機法的相關制度就是希望能夠藉由這個制度的建立能夠導正公務員內部如果有一些比較在管教領導上面的不當的作為能夠予以導正\n571898\t588906\t是的 那本席在這邊也提醒不要矯枉過正那該怎麼樣在這樣一個倫理上讓所有的東西能夠正常的運行那也不會去衝擊到彼此的一個權益那我相信很多委員其實都關心也提出很具體的方案\n589306\t616684\t但本席這邊就針對這個部分來談一下身心價本席過去在大學教書其實大學已經開始推動學生的身心調適價那也代表了社會上普遍認知心理健康對於工作與學習的重要性但是大學都已經開始在推動了我們政府機關卻還沒有全面制度性的提供類似的保障那是不是可以具體說明我們目前身心價調適請假的規劃進度是如何\n619426\t636815\t什麼時候可以開始實施因為行政院已經把建議案送到考試院那我們現在啟動這個要開始啟動預告那預告完以後呢我想這個應該我們之前就跟機關討論過應該是不會有太大意見那我們就把修正考試規則送到考試院去那由考試院最後來做核定\n637695\t661353\t同樣的不要太久好嗎本席這邊提出兩個概念兩個建議第一個就是說本席知道現在好像在人事長在過去備詢的時候蘇人事長他這邊備詢的時候有提到說基本上在七天市假裡面要挪三天當升薪假本席這邊建議一下\n662774\t683440\t是不是可以外加三天升薪假在七天假之外外加三天升薪假這樣感覺比較實質這是一個想法跟建議然後第二個部分是那當我們有升薪假的時候有沒有明確的配套措施讓申請這樣子假的這個同仁就是申請升薪假的同仁避免被貼標籤被歧視\n686041\t707004\t被遭受不公平的對待那這個部分本席希望考試院有一些做法那不知道目前有沒有這樣一個想法我想這個委員討論議題還有這些議題在行政院討論過程都有一些意見充分交換那我們我想大部分的譬如像說我們不會讓他有被標籤化這個事情應該是蠻確定的事情我們會朝這個方向來努力\n707486\t728294\t那本席希望有更具體的一個報告那針對這個部分好不好剛才本席提的這個議題上的這個兩點好那最後本席這邊提醒一下這應該跟權序部比較相關公務人員的這個退休撫恤的這個制度那其實2018年蔡總統這邊推動的年改之後呢已經這個所得替代率\n730015\t744623\t從75%降到67%然後未來還要再降到60%那當然啦你們這邊有提到說因為這樣子的降法是擔心退伏基金提前用完未來50年挹注的基金會減少2800億\n747604\t773491\t這是你們所提出來的這個回應但是本席要問的是基金的永續基金的永續可以拿犧牲退休人員的基本生活做代價嗎這是很重要的概念喔你的永續是你的能力跟方法但是退休公務人員的基本生活是他們過去在投入這個領域之前就有一些思考的所以這樣的\n775578\t793990\t回應跟這樣子的理由可以拿來犧牲退休人員的基本生活嗎我希望考試院能夠好好的思考我們拿一個對比好了政府近年來稅收超徵嚴重今年超收5000億去年4000億前年3800億所以你們說未來50年會少了2800億那請問這些超徵跟你們所提出來的回應這樣子的邏輯脈絡\n805898\t824168\t合理嗎是不是可以給本席一個報告來針對這一點所以請你們好好再評估政府在財政能力之內調整退休金政策的空間跟可能性好嗎好 沒有問題 會後再給委員一個報告好 謝謝\n","txt":"主席謝謝教委我們我本來要一旦前言讓秘書長再做一下不過大家都這樣看著我我就只好請秘書長先上來\n好這個前言是還有那個我們考試院同仁和立院同仁大家早今天本席在這邊要跟您還有整個院裡面探討幾個問題那當然前幾天你們也有來拜會我們已經就一些基礎的問題也做了一些意見的交流那今天這個幾個議題我基本上其實是\n優關所有公務人員的生計還有尊嚴那更直接的影響到的是政府效能跟國家治理的幾個議題那就包括第一個我們其實在交流的時候談到的技術人員的流失但是少子化帶來的人力短缺那高齡照護氣候變遷能源轉型的危機都\n直接衝擊或間接衝擊這樣的問題那第二個部分是退休制度讓退休人員的保障受到一些影響再來是職場霸凌跟我們的薪資結構好多的問題的重重交匯下導致我們現在其實在整個制度上我們應該做一個更深層的討論跟整理\n近20年來我們看到整個中央政府我們推動的地方化法人化跟委外化的這樣一個策略乍看之下好像成功的將公務人員的人數控制在法定上限內但實際上卻使得非公務人員的政府聘僱人員快速增加那這看起來好像解決了公務人員人數限制的問題但是事實上卻暴露出公務體系人力的嚴重缺口你我都知道\n正式公務人員跟約聘僱人員的權責各有不同所以在私下我們也談到土木技師還有這個機械技師等等技術型相關的這個領域其實目前流失的很嚴重我相信很多委員都注意到\n但是我們談到的相關的問題除了我們知道的軍警、消醫護這幾類都一直在缺現在技術人員的缺口也非常的大但是根本的原因其實是在職場的現實跟工作期望的嚴重落差所以這個市場上許多的技術人員都跑到了自由市場要進入到工領域對他們來講可能\n繁雜的行政工作跟公文的處理讓他們的技術沒有辦法發揮另外一個因素是薪資待遇跟職場條件的落後那當前的民間企業薪資水準都已經超越了公務體系所以年輕人對於工作上的認知現在也截然不同那年輕人更注重職癌的發展\n還有生活的品質那需要有多一點彈性跟充分能夠展現個人能力的環境職場所以工作體系當中的這個職位制度還有許多的行政包袱跟為長官侍從的職場文化跟新進的年輕世代可能有很大的落差那不知道秘書長您對於這個部分的一個看法\n委員提出問題有好幾個不同的面向這裡面包含就是說可能過去政府只要辦考試人就源源不斷地進來但現在我們應該要更注重就是讓有志工職或者是在可能有考慮來公佈門\n求職的人要更了解他要面對的未來到底是什麼樣一個工作的性質降低那個期待落差還有甚至一些誤解所以為什麼我們比較積極的要走到校園裡面去溝通但另外一方面他還有整個工作環境上的問題\n那裡面包含待遇這有很多是用人機關跟行政部門的角色所以您在我們私下溝通的時候也談到你們要跟各單位來進行那本期希望這個進度上能夠更加快一點不希望像早上有委員提到的那我們的任期都過了真正該處理跟解決問題都在演繹當中所以我希望整個腳步能夠變快\n好所以我們剛才講到這個待遇結構還有激勵制度那早上我聽到有委員進來說你們的相關的這個激勵的這個經費今年會因為某種原因而被減少我相信這個問題是不會發生的吧因為我們在這個整個待遇結構還有激勵制度目前都其實應該要更積極的來作為我們不希望這中間會有一些狀況應該不會吧秘書長\n因為這個我們都希望能夠提高即時獎勵的額度跟即時的獎勵那不過因為現在大家的預算都有被某種程度的是的所以你們就更積極的作為那我相信所有的委員對我們的這個預算都非常的支持所以該做的該解凍的該做報告處理的該溝通的我請你們也是加快腳步來做好不好好\n那我們現在談到的這個親自結構還有我們整個人員流失問題本席今天提出一個方式讓你來考量看看我知道在過去在這個技術人員的任用有一個\n很有效的一個條例也就是技術人員的任用條例事實上在過去解決了很多技術人員不足的問題現今我們有沒有可能在這種技術人員任用條例的一個方向上來做一個處理然後仿造鄰近的韓國、日本、新加坡更積極改善公務人員的待遇然後引進績效獎金等激勵制度來提高公務人員的生產力本席這邊也提供您一些參考\n新加坡都是根據GDP的成長率來發放年度經濟增長獎金這樣就大幅的提升整個的競爭率跟效率所以本席這邊正式的提出我們有沒有可能反過去技術人員任用條例的這個方向來解決現階段人力不足的問題第二個部分更明確的調整公務人員的待遇結構來仿效\n我們周遭的先進國家他們的這個做法剛才本席其實也提供一些參考是部長這邊要來回答嗎\n我跟委員報告 技術人員在台灣確實是過去有過的立法後來因為社會上對於所謂沒有經過國家考試就擔任公務人員的概念我們台灣的社會沒有支持所以立法院就把他廢止掉了但是本席一開始其實講的就是說你們在人員的控管上現在數字雖然好像很好看但是沒有經過公務人員考試的約聘顧的數量也很多啊\n所以現在我們真的技術人員其實是缺乏我們確實也碰到這個問題所以我們是不是要在整個區塊結構上去做處理我同意這樣一個講解就是說所以我們現在有專技人員轉任公務人員的那個制度簡單你如果是專技人員你可以不用再參加國家\n考試了你就直接由機關科營用於這是已經在職場內的嗎沒有沒有外面的我們可以從外面非限職的人員只要你具有專業證照那他其實牽涉到問題就本席剛才也有講的績效獎勵跟職場環境那這個整體來考量\n雖然你們有這樣一個辦法但是政執行上是不是能夠達到我們的期待這其實還有一大段時間沒有錯 待遇制度一環當然待遇是行政院負責不過行政院很努力在希望針對不同類型的特性的人在處理\n在私下然後跟剛才也都一直講你們需要趕快跟更積極的一個溝通那我們都不希望這個延宕很多年所以本席剛才指出來的問題有好幾個面向這面向還有互相影響所以針對這個部分而不是只有方法就好了而是這個方法有沒有效這個是本席未來其實要再監管的一個很重要的方向好不好好 謝謝\n接下來也有幾位委員提到對於公務人員的職場倫理還有壓力和工作環境我們知道現在的工作環境安全感跟心理健康其實對效能上有很大的影響尤其是在公務服務上\n但是這幾年因為職場倫理的關係還有職場環境的關係其實也有很大的衝擊所以根據考選部的資料目前參加高普考過去十年參加高普考的報考人數已經從2013年的\n146209人降到2022年的71284人那這個下降幅度很大耶51.25%可能有很多原因本席不希望在聽到剛才你們說我們數字上是OK的但是事實上公務人員跟約聘僱還有我們剛才講的真正在流失職場所需要的這個部分本席希望很精確的來探討\n不知道目前在職場倫理所造成的心理壓力跟職場事情下降的狀況院裡面有沒有一些可以處理跟檢討的方案\n我想職場霸凌這個議題在公部門這邊得到很大的重視所以我想這就是我們為什麼在近期這幾個月當中密集的來研議這個保障法、安慰辦法跟考機法的相關制度就是希望能夠藉由這個制度的建立能夠導正公務員內部如果有一些比較在管教領導上面的不當的作為能夠予以導正\n是的 那本席在這邊也提醒不要矯枉過正那該怎麼樣在這樣一個倫理上讓所有的東西能夠正常的運行那也不會去衝擊到彼此的一個權益那我相信很多委員其實都關心也提出很具體的方案\n但本席這邊就針對這個部分來談一下身心價本席過去在大學教書其實大學已經開始推動學生的身心調適價那也代表了社會上普遍認知心理健康對於工作與學習的重要性但是大學都已經開始在推動了我們政府機關卻還沒有全面制度性的提供類似的保障那是不是可以具體說明我們目前身心價調適請假的規劃進度是如何\n什麼時候可以開始實施因為行政院已經把建議案送到考試院那我們現在啟動這個要開始啟動預告那預告完以後呢我想這個應該我們之前就跟機關討論過應該是不會有太大意見那我們就把修正考試規則送到考試院去那由考試院最後來做核定\n同樣的不要太久好嗎本席這邊提出兩個概念兩個建議第一個就是說本席知道現在好像在人事長在過去備詢的時候蘇人事長他這邊備詢的時候有提到說基本上在七天市假裡面要挪三天當升薪假本席這邊建議一下\n是不是可以外加三天升薪假在七天假之外外加三天升薪假這樣感覺比較實質這是一個想法跟建議然後第二個部分是那當我們有升薪假的時候有沒有明確的配套措施讓申請這樣子假的這個同仁就是申請升薪假的同仁避免被貼標籤被歧視\n被遭受不公平的對待那這個部分本席希望考試院有一些做法那不知道目前有沒有這樣一個想法我想這個委員討論議題還有這些議題在行政院討論過程都有一些意見充分交換那我們我想大部分的譬如像說我們不會讓他有被標籤化這個事情應該是蠻確定的事情我們會朝這個方向來努力\n那本席希望有更具體的一個報告那針對這個部分好不好剛才本席提的這個議題上的這個兩點好那最後本席這邊提醒一下這應該跟權序部比較相關公務人員的這個退休撫恤的這個制度那其實2018年蔡總統這邊推動的年改之後呢已經這個所得替代率\n從75%降到67%然後未來還要再降到60%那當然啦你們這邊有提到說因為這樣子的降法是擔心退伏基金提前用完未來50年挹注的基金會減少2800億\n這是你們所提出來的這個回應但是本席要問的是基金的永續基金的永續可以拿犧牲退休人員的基本生活做代價嗎這是很重要的概念喔你的永續是你的能力跟方法但是退休公務人員的基本生活是他們過去在投入這個領域之前就有一些思考的所以這樣的\n回應跟這樣子的理由可以拿來犧牲退休人員的基本生活嗎我希望考試院能夠好好的思考我們拿一個對比好了政府近年來稅收超徵嚴重今年超收5000億去年4000億前年3800億所以你們說未來50年會少了2800億那請問這些超徵跟你們所提出來的回應這樣子的邏輯脈絡\n合理嗎是不是可以給本席一個報告來針對這一點所以請你們好好再評估政府在財政能力之內調整退休金政策的空間跟可能性好嗎好 沒有問題 會後再給委員一個報告好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.607 --> 00:18.594\n主席謝謝教委我們我本來要一旦前言讓秘書長再做一下不過大家都這樣看著我我就只好請秘書長先上來\n\n00:21.069 --> 00:40.458\n好這個前言是還有那個我們考試院同仁和立院同仁大家早今天本席在這邊要跟您還有整個院裡面探討幾個問題那當然前幾天你們也有來拜會我們已經就一些基礎的問題也做了一些意見的交流那今天這個幾個議題我基本上其實是\n\n00:42.659 --> 01:03.018\n優關所有公務人員的生計還有尊嚴那更直接的影響到的是政府效能跟國家治理的幾個議題那就包括第一個我們其實在交流的時候談到的技術人員的流失但是少子化帶來的人力短缺那高齡照護氣候變遷能源轉型的危機都\n\n01:04.579 --> 01:25.214\n直接衝擊或間接衝擊這樣的問題那第二個部分是退休制度讓退休人員的保障受到一些影響再來是職場霸凌跟我們的薪資結構好多的問題的重重交匯下導致我們現在其實在整個制度上我們應該做一個更深層的討論跟整理\n\n01:26.495 --> 01:54.356\n近20年來我們看到整個中央政府我們推動的地方化法人化跟委外化的這樣一個策略乍看之下好像成功的將公務人員的人數控制在法定上限內但實際上卻使得非公務人員的政府聘僱人員快速增加那這看起來好像解決了公務人員人數限制的問題但是事實上卻暴露出公務體系人力的嚴重缺口你我都知道\n\n01:54.716 --> 02:11.296\n正式公務人員跟約聘僱人員的權責各有不同所以在私下我們也談到土木技師還有這個機械技師等等技術型相關的這個領域其實目前流失的很嚴重我相信很多委員都注意到\n\n02:12.097 --> 02:36.345\n但是我們談到的相關的問題除了我們知道的軍警、消醫護這幾類都一直在缺現在技術人員的缺口也非常的大但是根本的原因其實是在職場的現實跟工作期望的嚴重落差所以這個市場上許多的技術人員都跑到了自由市場要進入到工領域對他們來講可能\n\n02:38.326 --> 02:58.480\n繁雜的行政工作跟公文的處理讓他們的技術沒有辦法發揮另外一個因素是薪資待遇跟職場條件的落後那當前的民間企業薪資水準都已經超越了公務體系所以年輕人對於工作上的認知現在也截然不同那年輕人更注重職癌的發展\n\n02:58.940 --> 03:19.887\n還有生活的品質那需要有多一點彈性跟充分能夠展現個人能力的環境職場所以工作體系當中的這個職位制度還有許多的行政包袱跟為長官侍從的職場文化跟新進的年輕世代可能有很大的落差那不知道秘書長您對於這個部分的一個看法\n\n03:21.458 --> 03:36.319\n委員提出問題有好幾個不同的面向這裡面包含就是說可能過去政府只要辦考試人就源源不斷地進來但現在我們應該要更注重就是讓有志工職或者是在可能有考慮來公佈門\n\n03:37.721 --> 03:53.424\n求職的人要更了解他要面對的未來到底是什麼樣一個工作的性質降低那個期待落差還有甚至一些誤解所以為什麼我們比較積極的要走到校園裡面去溝通但另外一方面他還有整個工作環境上的問題\n\n03:53.985 --> 04:12.885\n那裡面包含待遇這有很多是用人機關跟行政部門的角色所以您在我們私下溝通的時候也談到你們要跟各單位來進行那本期希望這個進度上能夠更加快一點不希望像早上有委員提到的那我們的任期都過了真正該處理跟解決問題都在演繹當中所以我希望整個腳步能夠變快\n\n04:14.266 --> 04:37.800\n好所以我們剛才講到這個待遇結構還有激勵制度那早上我聽到有委員進來說你們的相關的這個激勵的這個經費今年會因為某種原因而被減少我相信這個問題是不會發生的吧因為我們在這個整個待遇結構還有激勵制度目前都其實應該要更積極的來作為我們不希望這中間會有一些狀況應該不會吧秘書長\n\n04:39.926 --> 05:03.684\n因為這個我們都希望能夠提高即時獎勵的額度跟即時的獎勵那不過因為現在大家的預算都有被某種程度的是的所以你們就更積極的作為那我相信所有的委員對我們的這個預算都非常的支持所以該做的該解凍的該做報告處理的該溝通的我請你們也是加快腳步來做好不好好\n\n05:04.565 --> 05:18.294\n那我們現在談到的這個親自結構還有我們整個人員流失問題本席今天提出一個方式讓你來考量看看我知道在過去在這個技術人員的任用有一個\n\n05:19.349 --> 05:47.704\n很有效的一個條例也就是技術人員的任用條例事實上在過去解決了很多技術人員不足的問題現今我們有沒有可能在這種技術人員任用條例的一個方向上來做一個處理然後仿造鄰近的韓國、日本、新加坡更積極改善公務人員的待遇然後引進績效獎金等激勵制度來提高公務人員的生產力本席這邊也提供您一些參考\n\n05:48.604 --> 06:12.856\n新加坡都是根據GDP的成長率來發放年度經濟增長獎金這樣就大幅的提升整個的競爭率跟效率所以本席這邊正式的提出我們有沒有可能反過去技術人員任用條例的這個方向來解決現階段人力不足的問題第二個部分更明確的調整公務人員的待遇結構來仿效\n\n06:15.612 --> 06:22.801\n我們周遭的先進國家他們的這個做法剛才本席其實也提供一些參考是部長這邊要來回答嗎\n\n06:24.114 --> 06:47.331\n我跟委員報告技術人員在台灣確實是過去有過的立法後來因為社會上對於所謂沒有經過國家考試就擔任公務人員的概念我們台灣的社會沒有支持所以立法院就把他廢止掉了但是本席一開始其實講的就是說你們在人員的控管上現在數字雖然好像很好看但是沒有經過公務人員考試的約聘顧的數量也很多啊\n\n06:47.771 --> 07:04.372\n所以現在我們真的技術人員其實是缺乏我們確實也碰到這個問題所以我們是不是要在整個區塊結構上去做處理我同意這樣一個講解就是說所以我們現在有專技人員轉任公務人員的那個制度簡單你如果是專技人員你可以不用再參加國家\n\n07:05.592 --> 07:15.160\n考試了你就直接由機關科營用於這是已經在職場內的嗎沒有沒有外面的我們可以從外面非限職的人員只要你具有專業證照那他其實牽涉到問題就本席剛才也有講的績效獎勵跟職場環境那這個整體來考量\n\n07:22.126 --> 07:35.494\n雖然你們有這樣一個辦法但是政執行上是不是能夠達到我們的期待這其實還有一大段時間沒有錯待遇制度一環當然待遇是行政院負責不過行政院很努力在希望針對不同類型的特性的人在處理\n\n07:38.015 --> 07:59.322\n在私下然後跟剛才也都一直講你們需要趕快跟更積極的一個溝通那我們都不希望這個延宕很多年所以本席剛才指出來的問題有好幾個面向這面向還有互相影響所以針對這個部分而不是只有方法就好了而是這個方法有沒有效這個是本席未來其實要再監管的一個很重要的方向好不好好謝謝\n\n08:00.962 --> 08:16.817\n接下來也有幾位委員提到對於公務人員的職場倫理還有壓力和工作環境我們知道現在的工作環境安全感跟心理健康其實對效能上有很大的影響尤其是在公務服務上\n\n08:17.498 --> 08:32.380\n但是這幾年因為職場倫理的關係還有職場環境的關係其實也有很大的衝擊所以根據考選部的資料目前參加高普考過去十年參加高普考的報考人數已經從2013年的\n\n08:36.384 --> 08:55.311\n146209人降到2022年的71284人那這個下降幅度很大耶51.25%可能有很多原因本席不希望在聽到剛才你們說我們數字上是OK的但是事實上公務人員跟約聘僱還有我們剛才講的真正在流失職場所需要的這個部分本席希望很精確的來探討\n\n08:56.632 --> 09:06.126\n不知道目前在職場倫理所造成的心理壓力跟職場事情下降的狀況院裡面有沒有一些可以處理跟檢討的方案\n\n09:07.418 --> 09:30.204\n我想職場霸凌這個議題在公部門這邊得到很大的重視所以我想這就是我們為什麼在近期這幾個月當中密集的來研議這個保障法、安慰辦法跟考機法的相關制度就是希望能夠藉由這個制度的建立能夠導正公務員內部如果有一些比較在管教領導上面的不當的作為能夠予以導正\n\n09:31.898 --> 09:48.906\n是的那本席在這邊也提醒不要矯枉過正那該怎麼樣在這樣一個倫理上讓所有的東西能夠正常的運行那也不會去衝擊到彼此的一個權益那我相信很多委員其實都關心也提出很具體的方案\n\n09:49.306 --> 10:16.684\n但本席這邊就針對這個部分來談一下身心價本席過去在大學教書其實大學已經開始推動學生的身心調適價那也代表了社會上普遍認知心理健康對於工作與學習的重要性但是大學都已經開始在推動了我們政府機關卻還沒有全面制度性的提供類似的保障那是不是可以具體說明我們目前身心價調適請假的規劃進度是如何\n\n10:19.426 --> 10:36.815\n什麼時候可以開始實施因為行政院已經把建議案送到考試院那我們現在啟動這個要開始啟動預告那預告完以後呢我想這個應該我們之前就跟機關討論過應該是不會有太大意見那我們就把修正考試規則送到考試院去那由考試院最後來做核定\n\n10:37.695 --> 11:01.353\n同樣的不要太久好嗎本席這邊提出兩個概念兩個建議第一個就是說本席知道現在好像在人事長在過去備詢的時候蘇人事長他這邊備詢的時候有提到說基本上在七天市假裡面要挪三天當升薪假本席這邊建議一下\n\n11:02.774 --> 11:23.440\n是不是可以外加三天升薪假在七天假之外外加三天升薪假這樣感覺比較實質這是一個想法跟建議然後第二個部分是那當我們有升薪假的時候有沒有明確的配套措施讓申請這樣子假的這個同仁就是申請升薪假的同仁避免被貼標籤被歧視\n\n11:26.041 --> 11:47.004\n被遭受不公平的對待那這個部分本席希望考試院有一些做法那不知道目前有沒有這樣一個想法我想這個委員討論議題還有這些議題在行政院討論過程都有一些意見充分交換那我們我想大部分的譬如像說我們不會讓他有被標籤化這個事情應該是蠻確定的事情我們會朝這個方向來努力\n\n11:47.486 --> 12:08.294\n那本席希望有更具體的一個報告那針對這個部分好不好剛才本席提的這個議題上的這個兩點好那最後本席這邊提醒一下這應該跟權序部比較相關公務人員的這個退休撫恤的這個制度那其實2018年蔡總統這邊推動的年改之後呢已經這個所得替代率\n\n12:10.015 --> 12:24.623\n從75%降到67%然後未來還要再降到60%那當然啦你們這邊有提到說因為這樣子的降法是擔心退伏基金提前用完未來50年挹注的基金會減少2800億\n\n12:27.604 --> 12:53.491\n這是你們所提出來的這個回應但是本席要問的是基金的永續基金的永續可以拿犧牲退休人員的基本生活做代價嗎這是很重要的概念喔你的永續是你的能力跟方法但是退休公務人員的基本生活是他們過去在投入這個領域之前就有一些思考的所以這樣的\n\n12:55.578 --> 13:13.990\n回應跟這樣子的理由可以拿來犧牲退休人員的基本生活嗎我希望考試院能夠好好的思考我們拿一個對比好了政府近年來稅收超徵嚴重今年超收5000億去年4000億前年3800億所以你們說未來50年會少了2800億那請問這些超徵跟你們所提出來的回應這樣子的邏輯脈絡\n\n13:25.898 --> 13:44.168\n合理嗎是不是可以給本席一個報告來針對這一點所以請你們好好再評估政府在財政能力之內調整退休金政策的空間跟可能性好嗎好沒有問題會後再給委員一個報告好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.607,"end":18.594,"text":"主席謝謝教委我們我本來要一旦前言讓秘書長再做一下不過大家都這樣看著我我就只好請秘書長先上來"},{"start":21.069,"end":40.458,"text":"好這個前言是還有那個我們考試院同仁和立院同仁大家早今天本席在這邊要跟您還有整個院裡面探討幾個問題那當然前幾天你們也有來拜會我們已經就一些基礎的問題也做了一些意見的交流那今天這個幾個議題我基本上其實是"},{"start":42.659,"end":63.018,"text":"優關所有公務人員的生計還有尊嚴那更直接的影響到的是政府效能跟國家治理的幾個議題那就包括第一個我們其實在交流的時候談到的技術人員的流失但是少子化帶來的人力短缺那高齡照護氣候變遷能源轉型的危機都"},{"start":64.579,"end":85.214,"text":"直接衝擊或間接衝擊這樣的問題那第二個部分是退休制度讓退休人員的保障受到一些影響再來是職場霸凌跟我們的薪資結構好多的問題的重重交匯下導致我們現在其實在整個制度上我們應該做一個更深層的討論跟整理"},{"start":86.495,"end":114.356,"text":"近20年來我們看到整個中央政府我們推動的地方化法人化跟委外化的這樣一個策略乍看之下好像成功的將公務人員的人數控制在法定上限內但實際上卻使得非公務人員的政府聘僱人員快速增加那這看起來好像解決了公務人員人數限制的問題但是事實上卻暴露出公務體系人力的嚴重缺口你我都知道"},{"start":114.716,"end":131.296,"text":"正式公務人員跟約聘僱人員的權責各有不同所以在私下我們也談到土木技師還有這個機械技師等等技術型相關的這個領域其實目前流失的很嚴重我相信很多委員都注意到"},{"start":132.097,"end":156.345,"text":"但是我們談到的相關的問題除了我們知道的軍警、消醫護這幾類都一直在缺現在技術人員的缺口也非常的大但是根本的原因其實是在職場的現實跟工作期望的嚴重落差所以這個市場上許多的技術人員都跑到了自由市場要進入到工領域對他們來講可能"},{"start":158.326,"end":178.48,"text":"繁雜的行政工作跟公文的處理讓他們的技術沒有辦法發揮另外一個因素是薪資待遇跟職場條件的落後那當前的民間企業薪資水準都已經超越了公務體系所以年輕人對於工作上的認知現在也截然不同那年輕人更注重職癌的發展"},{"start":178.94,"end":199.887,"text":"還有生活的品質那需要有多一點彈性跟充分能夠展現個人能力的環境職場所以工作體系當中的這個職位制度還有許多的行政包袱跟為長官侍從的職場文化跟新進的年輕世代可能有很大的落差那不知道秘書長您對於這個部分的一個看法"},{"start":201.458,"end":216.319,"text":"委員提出問題有好幾個不同的面向這裡面包含就是說可能過去政府只要辦考試人就源源不斷地進來但現在我們應該要更注重就是讓有志工職或者是在可能有考慮來公佈門"},{"start":217.721,"end":233.424,"text":"求職的人要更了解他要面對的未來到底是什麼樣一個工作的性質降低那個期待落差還有甚至一些誤解所以為什麼我們比較積極的要走到校園裡面去溝通但另外一方面他還有整個工作環境上的問題"},{"start":233.985,"end":252.885,"text":"那裡面包含待遇這有很多是用人機關跟行政部門的角色所以您在我們私下溝通的時候也談到你們要跟各單位來進行那本期希望這個進度上能夠更加快一點不希望像早上有委員提到的那我們的任期都過了真正該處理跟解決問題都在演繹當中所以我希望整個腳步能夠變快"},{"start":254.266,"end":277.8,"text":"好所以我們剛才講到這個待遇結構還有激勵制度那早上我聽到有委員進來說你們的相關的這個激勵的這個經費今年會因為某種原因而被減少我相信這個問題是不會發生的吧因為我們在這個整個待遇結構還有激勵制度目前都其實應該要更積極的來作為我們不希望這中間會有一些狀況應該不會吧秘書長"},{"start":279.926,"end":303.684,"text":"因為這個我們都希望能夠提高即時獎勵的額度跟即時的獎勵那不過因為現在大家的預算都有被某種程度的是的所以你們就更積極的作為那我相信所有的委員對我們的這個預算都非常的支持所以該做的該解凍的該做報告處理的該溝通的我請你們也是加快腳步來做好不好好"},{"start":304.565,"end":318.294,"text":"那我們現在談到的這個親自結構還有我們整個人員流失問題本席今天提出一個方式讓你來考量看看我知道在過去在這個技術人員的任用有一個"},{"start":319.349,"end":347.704,"text":"很有效的一個條例也就是技術人員的任用條例事實上在過去解決了很多技術人員不足的問題現今我們有沒有可能在這種技術人員任用條例的一個方向上來做一個處理然後仿造鄰近的韓國、日本、新加坡更積極改善公務人員的待遇然後引進績效獎金等激勵制度來提高公務人員的生產力本席這邊也提供您一些參考"},{"start":348.604,"end":372.856,"text":"新加坡都是根據GDP的成長率來發放年度經濟增長獎金這樣就大幅的提升整個的競爭率跟效率所以本席這邊正式的提出我們有沒有可能反過去技術人員任用條例的這個方向來解決現階段人力不足的問題第二個部分更明確的調整公務人員的待遇結構來仿效"},{"start":375.612,"end":382.801,"text":"我們周遭的先進國家他們的這個做法剛才本席其實也提供一些參考是部長這邊要來回答嗎"},{"start":384.114,"end":407.331,"text":"我跟委員報告 技術人員在台灣確實是過去有過的立法後來因為社會上對於所謂沒有經過國家考試就擔任公務人員的概念我們台灣的社會沒有支持所以立法院就把他廢止掉了但是本席一開始其實講的就是說你們在人員的控管上現在數字雖然好像很好看但是沒有經過公務人員考試的約聘顧的數量也很多啊"},{"start":407.771,"end":424.372,"text":"所以現在我們真的技術人員其實是缺乏我們確實也碰到這個問題所以我們是不是要在整個區塊結構上去做處理我同意這樣一個講解就是說所以我們現在有專技人員轉任公務人員的那個制度簡單你如果是專技人員你可以不用再參加國家"},{"start":425.592,"end":435.16,"text":"考試了你就直接由機關科營用於這是已經在職場內的嗎沒有沒有外面的我們可以從外面非限職的人員只要你具有專業證照那他其實牽涉到問題就本席剛才也有講的績效獎勵跟職場環境那這個整體來考量"},{"start":442.126,"end":455.494,"text":"雖然你們有這樣一個辦法但是政執行上是不是能夠達到我們的期待這其實還有一大段時間沒有錯 待遇制度一環當然待遇是行政院負責不過行政院很努力在希望針對不同類型的特性的人在處理"},{"start":458.015,"end":479.322,"text":"在私下然後跟剛才也都一直講你們需要趕快跟更積極的一個溝通那我們都不希望這個延宕很多年所以本席剛才指出來的問題有好幾個面向這面向還有互相影響所以針對這個部分而不是只有方法就好了而是這個方法有沒有效這個是本席未來其實要再監管的一個很重要的方向好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":480.962,"end":496.817,"text":"接下來也有幾位委員提到對於公務人員的職場倫理還有壓力和工作環境我們知道現在的工作環境安全感跟心理健康其實對效能上有很大的影響尤其是在公務服務上"},{"start":497.498,"end":512.38,"text":"但是這幾年因為職場倫理的關係還有職場環境的關係其實也有很大的衝擊所以根據考選部的資料目前參加高普考過去十年參加高普考的報考人數已經從2013年的"},{"start":516.384,"end":535.311,"text":"146209人降到2022年的71284人那這個下降幅度很大耶51.25%可能有很多原因本席不希望在聽到剛才你們說我們數字上是OK的但是事實上公務人員跟約聘僱還有我們剛才講的真正在流失職場所需要的這個部分本席希望很精確的來探討"},{"start":536.632,"end":546.126,"text":"不知道目前在職場倫理所造成的心理壓力跟職場事情下降的狀況院裡面有沒有一些可以處理跟檢討的方案"},{"start":547.418,"end":570.204,"text":"我想職場霸凌這個議題在公部門這邊得到很大的重視所以我想這就是我們為什麼在近期這幾個月當中密集的來研議這個保障法、安慰辦法跟考機法的相關制度就是希望能夠藉由這個制度的建立能夠導正公務員內部如果有一些比較在管教領導上面的不當的作為能夠予以導正"},{"start":571.898,"end":588.906,"text":"是的 那本席在這邊也提醒不要矯枉過正那該怎麼樣在這樣一個倫理上讓所有的東西能夠正常的運行那也不會去衝擊到彼此的一個權益那我相信很多委員其實都關心也提出很具體的方案"},{"start":589.306,"end":616.684,"text":"但本席這邊就針對這個部分來談一下身心價本席過去在大學教書其實大學已經開始推動學生的身心調適價那也代表了社會上普遍認知心理健康對於工作與學習的重要性但是大學都已經開始在推動了我們政府機關卻還沒有全面制度性的提供類似的保障那是不是可以具體說明我們目前身心價調適請假的規劃進度是如何"},{"start":619.426,"end":636.815,"text":"什麼時候可以開始實施因為行政院已經把建議案送到考試院那我們現在啟動這個要開始啟動預告那預告完以後呢我想這個應該我們之前就跟機關討論過應該是不會有太大意見那我們就把修正考試規則送到考試院去那由考試院最後來做核定"},{"start":637.695,"end":661.353,"text":"同樣的不要太久好嗎本席這邊提出兩個概念兩個建議第一個就是說本席知道現在好像在人事長在過去備詢的時候蘇人事長他這邊備詢的時候有提到說基本上在七天市假裡面要挪三天當升薪假本席這邊建議一下"},{"start":662.774,"end":683.44,"text":"是不是可以外加三天升薪假在七天假之外外加三天升薪假這樣感覺比較實質這是一個想法跟建議然後第二個部分是那當我們有升薪假的時候有沒有明確的配套措施讓申請這樣子假的這個同仁就是申請升薪假的同仁避免被貼標籤被歧視"},{"start":686.041,"end":707.004,"text":"被遭受不公平的對待那這個部分本席希望考試院有一些做法那不知道目前有沒有這樣一個想法我想這個委員討論議題還有這些議題在行政院討論過程都有一些意見充分交換那我們我想大部分的譬如像說我們不會讓他有被標籤化這個事情應該是蠻確定的事情我們會朝這個方向來努力"},{"start":707.486,"end":728.294,"text":"那本席希望有更具體的一個報告那針對這個部分好不好剛才本席提的這個議題上的這個兩點好那最後本席這邊提醒一下這應該跟權序部比較相關公務人員的這個退休撫恤的這個制度那其實2018年蔡總統這邊推動的年改之後呢已經這個所得替代率"},{"start":730.015,"end":744.623,"text":"從75%降到67%然後未來還要再降到60%那當然啦你們這邊有提到說因為這樣子的降法是擔心退伏基金提前用完未來50年挹注的基金會減少2800億"},{"start":747.604,"end":773.491,"text":"這是你們所提出來的這個回應但是本席要問的是基金的永續基金的永續可以拿犧牲退休人員的基本生活做代價嗎這是很重要的概念喔你的永續是你的能力跟方法但是退休公務人員的基本生活是他們過去在投入這個領域之前就有一些思考的所以這樣的"},{"start":775.578,"end":793.99,"text":"回應跟這樣子的理由可以拿來犧牲退休人員的基本生活嗎我希望考試院能夠好好的思考我們拿一個對比好了政府近年來稅收超徵嚴重今年超收5000億去年4000億前年3800億所以你們說未來50年會少了2800億那請問這些超徵跟你們所提出來的回應這樣子的邏輯脈絡"},{"start":805.898,"end":824.168,"text":"合理嗎是不是可以給本席一個報告來針對這一點所以請你們好好再評估政府在財政能力之內調整退休金政策的空間跟可能性好嗎好 沒有問題 會後再給委員一個報告好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":689,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（10時5分）謝謝召委。我本來有一段前言，想讓秘書長先坐一下，不過大家都這樣看著我，那我就只好請秘書長先上來。","考試院同仁和立院同仁，大家早。今天本席在這邊要跟您還有整個院裡面探討幾個問題，當然前幾天你們也有來拜會，我們已經就一些基礎的問題做了一些意見的交流。今天有幾個議題基本上是攸關所有公務人員的生計還有尊嚴，更直接影響到的是政府效能跟國家治理。第一個，我們在交流的時候有談到技術人員的流失，少子化帶來的人力短缺、高齡照護、氣候變遷、能源轉型的危機都直接衝擊或間接衝擊這樣的問題；第二個部分是退休制度，讓退休人員的保障受到一些影響。再來是職場霸凌跟我們的薪資結構，許多問題重重交會下，導致現在在整個制度上，我們應該做更深層的討論跟整理。","近二十年來，我們看到整個中央政府推動地方化、法人化跟委外化的策略，乍看之下好像成功的將公務人員的人數控制在法定上限內，但實際上卻使得非公務人員的政府聘僱人員快速增加，這看起來好像解決了公務人員人數限制的問題，但事實上卻暴露出公務體系人力的嚴重缺口。你我都知道，正式公務人員跟約聘僱人員的權責各有不同，所以在私下我們也談到土木技師還有機械技師等等技術型相關的領域，其實目前流失得很嚴重，我相信很多委員也都有注意到。但是我們談到的相關問題，除了我們知道的軍、警、消、醫護這幾類都一直在缺，現在技術人員的缺口也非常大，根本的原因其實是在職場的現實跟工作期望的嚴重落差，所以市場上許多的技術人員都跑到自由市場，要進入到公務領域，對他們來講可能繁雜的行政工作跟公文處理讓他們的技術沒有辦法發揮。","另外一個因素是薪資待遇跟職場條件的落後，當前的民間企業薪資水準都已經超越了公務體系，所以年輕人對於工作上的認知現在也截然不同，年輕人更注重職涯的發展還有生活品質，需要有多一點彈性跟能夠充分展現個人能力的職場環境，所以工作體系當中的職位制度，還有許多的行政包袱跟唯長官是從的職場文化，跟新進的年輕世代可能有很大的落差，不知道秘書長對於這個部分的看法為何？"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員提出的問題有好幾個不同的面向，這裡面包含了可能過去政府只要辦考試，人就源源不斷地進來，但現在我們應該要更注重，就是對有志公職或者是可能有考慮來公部門求職的人，要更了解他要面對的未來到底是什麼樣的工作性質，降低那個期待落差甚至還有一些誤解，所以為什麼我們比較積極地要走到校園裡面去溝通，但另外一方面還有整個工作環境上的問題，那裡面包含待遇，這有很多是用人機關跟行政部門的角色。"],["林委員倩綺：是、是、是，所以您在我們私下溝通的時候也談到你們要跟各單位來進行。"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，所以我們跨院合作很重要。"],["林委員倩綺：本席希望這個進度上能夠更加快一點，不希望像早上有委員提到的，我們的任期都過了，真正該處理跟解決的問題都在研議當中，所以我希望整個腳步能夠變快。"],["劉秘書長建忻：會努力。"],["林委員倩綺：我們剛才講到待遇結構還有激勵制度，早上我聽到有委員竟然說你們相關的激勵經費今年會因為某種原因而被減少，我相信這個問題是不會發生的吧！因為我們在整個待遇結構還有激勵制度，目前其實都應該要更積極地來作為，我們不希望這中間會有一些狀況，應該不會吧？秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：我們都希望能夠提高即時獎勵的額度並即時獎勵，不過因為現在大家的預算都有被某種程度的……"],["林委員倩綺：是的，所以你們就更積極地作為……"],["劉秘書長建忻：就是在使用上會有一點不方便。"],["林委員倩綺：我相信所有委員對你們的預算都非常的支持。"],["劉秘書長建忻：到時候提出來請委員支持。"],["林委員倩綺：所以該做的、該解凍的、該做報告處理的、該溝通的，我想請你們加快腳步來做，好不好？"],["劉秘書長建忻：好，謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：我們現在談到薪資結構，還有整個人員流失的問題，本席今天提出一個方式讓你來考量看看。我知道在過去技術人員的任用有一個很有效的條例，也就是技術人員任用條例，事實上在過去解決了很多技術人員不足的問題，現今我們有沒有可能在這種技術人員任用條例的方向上來處理，然後仿照鄰近的韓國、日本、新加坡，更積極改善公務人員的待遇，引進績效獎金等激勵制度，提高公務人員的生產力？本席這邊也提供你一些參考，新加坡都是根據GDP的成長率來發放年度經濟增長獎金，這樣就大幅提升整個競爭力跟效率，所以本席這邊正式提出，我們有沒有可能仿過去技術人員任用條例的方向，解決現階段人力不足的問題？第二個部分，更明確地調整公務人員的待遇結構，仿傚我們周遭先進國家的作法。剛才本席其實也提供一些參考，是部長這邊要回答嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，技術人員任用條例確實過去有過立法，後來因為社會上對於沒有經過國家考試就擔任公務人員的概念，我們臺灣的社會沒有支持，所以立法院就把它廢止掉了。"],["林委員倩綺：但是本席一開始講的就是，你們在人員的控管上，現在雖然數字好像很好看，但是沒有經過公務人員考試的約聘僱數量也很多，而現在我們的技術人員真的是很缺。"],["施部長能傑：我們確實也碰到這個問題，所以現在專技人員……"],["林委員倩綺：你們是不是要在整個區塊、結構上去處理？"],["施部長能傑：我同意這樣一個講法，所以我們現在有專技人員轉任公務人員的制度，如果是專技人員，可以不用再參加國家考試，就直接由機關任用。"],["林委員倩綺：這是已經在職場內的嘛！那外部如果……"],["施部長能傑：沒有，外面的，我們可以從外面非現職人員，只要具有專業證照……"],["林委員倩綺：這是一個可能跟選擇嘛！它其實牽涉到的問題，就是本席剛才也有講的，績效獎勵跟職場環境，這個整體來考量，雖然你們有這樣一個辦法……"],["施部長能傑：這個是待遇制度的一環。"],["林委員倩綺：但是真正執行上是不是能夠達到我們的期待，這其實還有一大段距離。"],["施部長能傑：是，沒有錯！是待遇制度的一環，待遇是行政院負責，不過行政院很努力希望針對不同類型的在處理。"],["林委員倩綺：是，就如同你們在私下、包括剛才也都一直講，你們需要趕快跟更積極的溝通，我們都不希望延宕很多年。本席剛才指出來的問題有好幾個面向，這些面向還有互相影響。所以針對這個部分，不是只有方法就好了，而是這個方法有沒有效，這個其實是本席未來要再監管的一個很重要的方向，好不好？"],["施部長能傑：好，謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝。接下來其實也有幾位委員提到，就是對於公務人員的職場倫理，還有壓力和工作環境，我們知道現在工作環境、安全感跟心理健康其實對效能上有很大的影響，尤其是在公共服務上。但是這幾年因為職場倫理的關係，還有職場環境的關係，其實也有很大的衝擊，根據考選部的資料，過去十年參加高普考的報考人數已經從2013年的14萬6,209人降到2022年的7萬1,284人，這個下降幅度很大，51.25%！可能有很多原因，本席不希望再聽到剛才你們說的數字上是OK的，但是事實上，公務人員跟約聘僱，還有我們剛才講的真正在流失職場所需要的，這個部分本席希望很精確地來探討。不知道目前在職場倫理所造成的心理壓力跟職場適性下降的狀況，院裡面有沒有一些可以處理跟檢討的方案？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我想職場霸凌這個議題在公部門得到很大的重視，這就是我們為什麼在近期這幾個月當中密集研議保障法、安衛辦法跟考績法的相關制度，就是希望能夠藉由這個制度的建立，導正公務員內部一些在管教領導上比較不當的作為。"],["林委員倩綺：是的。本席在這邊也提醒不要矯枉過正，該怎麼樣在這樣一個倫理上讓所有的東西能夠正常運行，也不會去衝擊到彼此的權益，我相信很多委員其實都關心，也提出很具體的方案。","本席針對這個部分來談一下身心假，本席過去在大學教書，其實大學已經開始推動學生的身心調適假，也代表社會上普遍認知心理健康對於工作與學習的重要性，大學都已經開始在推動了，但是我們的政府機關卻還沒有全面制度性提供類似的保障。是不是可以具體說明目前身心調適假的規劃進度如何？什麼時候可以開始實施？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，行政院已經把建議案送到考試院，我們已經要開始啟動預告，預告完以後……我想這個我們之前就跟機關討論過，應該是不會有太大意見，我們就把修正考試規則送到考試院去，由考試院最後核定。"],["林委員倩綺：同樣的，不要太久好嗎？"],["施部長能傑：不會啦！"],["林委員倩綺：本席這邊提出兩個建議：第一個，本席知道蘇人事長在過去備詢的時候好像有提到在7天事假裡面要挪3天當身心假，本席這邊建議一下，是不是可以外加3天身心假？就是在7天假之外，外加3天身心假，這樣感覺比較實質，這是一個想法跟建議。第二個部分是當我們有身心假的時候，有沒有明確的配套措施，讓申請身心假的同仁避免被貼標籤、被歧視、遭受不公平的對待？這個部分本席希望考試院有一些作法，不知道目前有沒有這樣一個想法？"],["施部長能傑：委員討論的這些議題，在行政院討論的過程都有一些意見充分交換，譬如說不會讓他有被標籤化這個事情應該是滿確定的事情，我們會朝這個方向來努力。"],["林委員倩綺：本席希望有更具體的報告，針對這個部分，好不好？就是剛才本席提的這個議題上的兩點。"],["施部長能傑：好。"],["林委員倩綺：最後本席這邊提醒一下，這應該跟銓敘部比較相關，關於公務人員的退休撫卹制度，2018年蔡總統推動年改之後，所得替代率已經從75%降到67%，未來還要再降到60%，當然你們這邊有提到，這樣子的降法是擔心退撫基金提前用完，未來50年挹注的基金會減少2,800億。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["林委員倩綺：這是你們所提出來的回應。但是本席要問的是，基金的永續可以犧牲退休人員的基本生活做代價嗎？這是很重要的概念，你的永續是你的能力跟方法，但是退休公務人員的基本生活是他們過去投入這個領域之前就有一些思考的，所以這樣的回應跟這樣子的理由可以拿來犧牲退休人員的基本生活嗎？我希望考試院能夠好好的思考。我們拿一個對比好了，政府近年來稅收超徵嚴重，今年超收5,000億，去年4,000億，前年3,800億，你們說未來50年會少了2,800億，請問這些超徵跟你們所提出來的回應，這樣子的邏輯脈絡合理嗎？針對這一點是不是可以給本席一個報告？"],["施部長能傑：好。"],["林委員倩綺：請你們再好好評估政府在財政能力之內，調整退休金政策的空間跟可能性，好嗎？"],["施部長能傑：好，沒問題，會後再給委員一個報告。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝。"],["施部長能傑：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-5","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","林倩綺","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業\n務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00004"}}}