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這當然有這個必要性嘛因為我剛剛講了中立法的第二條它的立法理由已經說得很清楚了政務官不是不用福音行政中立他是說他要另以專法來論斷來那個立法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 236.972, \"end\": 237.392, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"負\", \"start\": 237.392, \"end\": 237.912, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 237.912, \"end\": 238.012, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 238.012, \"end\": 238.512, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 238.512, \"end\": 238.693, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 238.693, \"end\": 239.133, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 239.133, \"end\": 239.253, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 239.253, \"end\": 239.513, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 239.513, \"end\": 239.713, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 239.713, \"end\": 240.493, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 240.493, \"end\": 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343.11, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 343.11, \"end\": 343.13, \"score\": 0.996}]}, {\"start\": 343.73, \"end\": 364.131, \"text\": \"那個不分事務官政務官其實都不可以做這件事但是就參與某些政治活動而言政務官跟事務官的規範就會不一樣這個歷來一直中央地方的政務官慢慢也形成了一定的這個這個部分我了解我也可以接受就是政務官跟常任文官他們在行政中立上面的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 343.73, \"end\": 344.031, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 344.031, \"end\": 344.171, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 344.171, \"end\": 344.351, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 344.351, \"end\": 344.591, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 344.591, \"end\": 344.751, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 344.751, \"end\": 344.952, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 344.952, \"end\": 345.092, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 345.092, \"end\": 345.172, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 345.172, \"end\": 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\"我\", \"start\": 358.746, \"end\": 358.806, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 358.806, \"end\": 359.026, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 359.026, \"end\": 359.146, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 359.146, \"end\": 359.306, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 359.306, \"end\": 359.647, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 359.647, \"end\": 360.147, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 360.147, \"end\": 360.247, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 360.247, \"end\": 360.427, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 360.427, \"end\": 360.728, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 360.728, \"end\": 360.908, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 360.908, \"end\": 361.148, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 361.148, \"end\": 361.629, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 361.629, \"end\": 361.929, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"文\", 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{\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 376.517, \"end\": 376.958, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"譬\", \"start\": 376.958, \"end\": 377.198, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 377.198, \"end\": 378.278, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 378.278, \"end\": 378.458, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 378.458, \"end\": 378.618, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 378.618, \"end\": 379.038, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"假\", \"start\": 379.038, \"end\": 379.439, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"借\", \"start\": 379.439, \"end\": 379.999, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 379.999, \"end\": 380.279, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 380.279, \"end\": 380.519, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"宣\", \"start\": 380.519, \"end\": 381.96, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"傳\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 381.96, \"end\": 382.16, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 388.943, \"end\": 389.103, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 389.103, \"end\": 389.283, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 389.283, \"end\": 389.463, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 389.463, \"end\": 389.683, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 389.683, \"end\": 389.803, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 389.803, \"end\": 389.983, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 389.983, \"end\": 390.244, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 390.244, \"end\": 390.424, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 390.424, \"end\": 390.664, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 390.664, \"end\": 390.864, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"謂\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 390.864, \"end\": 391.264, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 391.264, \"end\": 391.804, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"鄉\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 391.804, \"end\": 391.984, 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00:00:08,921\n好我們麻煩秘書長請秘書長委員長好那我想請問一下\n\n2\n00:00:25,811 --> 00:00:54,175\n考試院這邊就是一個很簡單的問題我想說我們提到公務員的中立規定的時候其實我們很清楚就是目前的作為是把常任文官跟政務官其實是在行政中立上面是有一個區別嘛對不對那我先想請教一下考試院公務員下班或者是假日可不可以去參加候選人的造勢大會或是為特定候選人站台\n\n3\n00:00:54,855 --> 00:01:12,700\n然後喊動算可以這樣嗎我請部長來說明好請部長中立法裡面還是有規範它好像第九條之後還是有規範不管上下班時間工人不可以做的行為是好那部長這個是指常任文官對不對對沒錯好那\n\n4\n00:01:13,941 --> 00:01:36,702\n其實今天我是覺得就常任務官的部分是這樣規定沒有錯但是呢就像剛剛秘書長也有提到的政務官的部分確實依照目前的中立法它是好像是排除掉政務官的適用但是呢我想請問一下那政務官到底有沒有行政中立的義務就法律的精神\n\n5\n00:01:37,785 --> 00:02:01,290\n我想就法律精神政務官不可以動用這個公家的資源去從事他政黨的一個活動或者政治性的活動我想這是一個作為一個政務官應該有自己的倫理的規範我的意思是說就依照法律的精神政務官到底有沒有行政中立的義務要看委員界定的行政中立的內涵是什麼\n\n6\n00:02:02,401 --> 00:02:20,942\n因為根據我們法律裡面我們行政中立老實說它是一個比較廣泛的一個界定啦並我們沒有真正界定做行政中立法真正的行政中立法裡面絕大部分是講參與政治活動啦好那沒關係啦這樣好了那我來直接跟你們說齁其實公務員的行政中立法並不是說\n\n7\n00:02:22,183 --> 00:02:45,478\n並不是說政務官沒有行政中立的義務而是說他要求是另立專法所以我查到了公務人員行政中立法第二條他的立法理由其實說得很清楚他主要是提到就是說因為政務官他是屬於政治任命或是民選所產生他跟常任文官有別所以這個部分他以另專法來規範\n\n8\n00:02:48,820 --> 00:03:01,923\n對不對但是呢我國現在對於政務官完全沒有專法嘛之前有幾個早案提出來但是目前都沒有立法成功那我想請問一下現在考試院這邊有什麼想法就政務官的部分\n\n9\n00:03:04,439 --> 00:03:26,228\n我跟你們報告政務官這個體系我知道在社會上有不同的討論不過考試院根據憲法執掌是負責公務人員那畢竟政務人員並不是依法考試及格任用的人所以如果有這方面的一個議題需要專責立法這應該會是屬於行政院的推測沒有啊你考試院在101年9月28號曾經有送過一個政務人員卡\n\n10\n00:03:30,009 --> 00:03:56,011\n草案啊當初曾經有送過這不是說跟你們無關啊不過行政院那邊後來有一些意見就是說政務人員應該是由行政院這邊因為畢竟所有的政務人員大部分都在行政院裡面負責而且包括地方政府相關議題所以我的意思是回到憲法本身的那個那個考試院執掌就是公務人員這個概念的話我想這是兩院要繼續去做討論的部分到底如果真的有必要要往這邊立法的話是由哪一個\n\n11\n00:03:56,972 --> 00:04:11,436\n院來負責不是這當然有這個必要性嘛因為我剛剛講了中立法的第二條它的立法理由已經說得很清楚了政務官不是不用福音行政中立他是說他要另以專法來論斷來那個立法\n\n12\n00:04:14,477 --> 00:04:43,858\n他是說另外要有專法而不是說他沒有行政中立的義務結果呢現在大家的解釋變成說這個行政中立只有事務官常樂文官要政務官沒有現在變成這樣子啊那以我所了解的民進黨的做法我們常常講法律是道德的最後一道防線但是現在民進黨把法律跟道德拉成一樣然後他的作為甚至還低於道德低於法律違法只要不被抓到民進黨都覺得OK啊\n\n13\n00:04:44,278 --> 00:05:12,537\n那在這個角度來說因為我最近看到行政院變成是全國最大競選總部行政院變成全國最大的大二霸的總部那這樣就不對了嘛這樣子政務官他也是領國家的錢不要講別的啦你今天你搭車出去坐公務車出去你的水戶出去你的助理出去這些都是國家的經費所養的人嘛國家經費所支付的那你說政務官不是一般的公務員所以\n\n14\n00:05:13,197 --> 00:05:23,201\n所以也不歸你們管也不歸什麼然後你們在101年也曾經提過法案希望就政務官的部分規範就現在不能說現在反而又不管你們的事了嗎應該是說\n\n15\n00:05:26,538 --> 00:05:43,130\n是不是由考試院來提出政務委員法這件事情一直是考試院跟行政院之間的爭論那我回到行政中立的部分就是說政務官也不是如果委員所說並不是完全沒有行政中立的相當規範就是剛剛部長也有講如果你動用機關資源的這個部分其實一樣不可以\n\n16\n00:05:43,730 --> 00:06:04,131\n那個不分事務官政務官其實都不可以做這件事但是就參與某些政治活動而言政務官跟事務官的規範就會不一樣這個歷來一直中央地方的政務官慢慢也形成了一定的這個這個部分我了解我也可以接受就是政務官跟常任文官他們在行政中立上面的\n\n17\n00:06:04,992 --> 00:06:32,365\n程度有所區別這個我都可以接受也不會很無理的要求說絕對兩個要拉到一樣但是我要一直在講最近這段時間發生的事情譬如說行政院假借政策宣傳這個名目就全台灣到處搞了在那邊喊大罷免還有立法委員在上面唱歌要罷免怎麼樣然後他所用的是行政院所謂的下鄉的政策宣傳\n\n18\n00:06:33,385 --> 00:07:00,844\n那這個東西叫我怎麼相信它是一個行政中立的概念好那之前那個草屯的政長補選嘛那在那個補選的會場的時候我們的那個政次那個誰那個陳時中還有我們現在衛福部的次長林靜儀不也去那邊大呼小叫嗎那這兩個人他是政務官沒有錯但是呢他卻在現場在那邊助選然後在那邊講一些有的沒的甚至在講罷免的事情\n\n19\n00:07:01,664 --> 00:07:21,618\n但是我就想回到我剛剛說的這些人去那邊他也是掛他的官銜去他並不是用他個人的名義去再來他去的時候就我剛剛講的他要不要使用他的公務車他要不要使用他的隨扈那有一些像部會首長級的出門也是會帶隨扈那這些也不就是公\n\n20\n00:07:22,642 --> 00:07:43,799\n公共的費用嗎所以我在這邊講啦我剛剛回到剛剛我說的我不是說政務官他對於新任總理的要求強度要跟常任文官一樣但是是不是考試院這邊你能夠去思考一個點既然你們101年就已經提過政務人員法草案那\n\n21\n00:07:44,600 --> 00:08:03,080\n可不可以趕快提出來就政務官的部分有關行政中立的部分要趕快法治化要加以規範而不是像現在被很多人剛好抓到你這個點反正法無明文嘛法無明文我就幹我的啊就我剛剛講的在民進黨執政之下\n\n22\n00:08:04,824 --> 00:08:20,200\n他的法律跟他的道德觀是拉到跟法律一樣我們講法律是道德的最後一道防線結果他現在拉到一樣甚至他的作為比法律還不如只要違法沒被抓一切都好那這個當然兩位是\n\n23\n00:08:21,241 --> 00:08:41,152\n兩位是政務官嘛那我當然我講這個你們也不方便回答什麼這我都可以理解我自己也做過政務官我自己也做過所以我很能夠清楚政務官跟常任無我做過常任無官我也做過政務官所以我了解這兩個的區別在哪裡但是是不是考試院這邊你們要趕快提出專法出來\n\n24\n00:08:42,284 --> 00:09:05,086\n要讓我國的政務官去有所規範因為這些政務官都是常任文官的長官我們都知道嘛在我國的體制裡面政務官通常都是常任文官的長官那這些常任文官他們在職場上面他看到他的長官就去那裡站台就去那裡喊大罷免就去那裡喊那些\n\n25\n00:09:06,287 --> 00:09:17,519\n為特定的候選人特定政黨的候選人在那邊助選然後在那邊講其他人非同政黨的人的壞話那請問一下底下的這些常任文官他們的想法是什麼\n\n26\n00:09:18,980 --> 00:09:38,470\n以人性的角度去出發很多常任務官他會認為說要巴結他的長官他可能求升監或求工作更順利他可能會去巴結他的長官這是全世界各國都有的人性的問題這樣子如果我們放任這些政務官毫無節制的\n\n27\n00:09:40,022 --> 00:10:08,132\n違反行政中立的話那這不對啊更何況我剛剛提到了中立法的第二條立法理由就講不是不用政務官不是不用去遵守行政中立而是要另以專法來設置因為事務官跟常任文官跟政務官就是不一樣嘛但是你們現在卻這個法就完全沒有提出來你們可不可以趕快像101年那樣趕快把草案提出來\n\n28\n00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:16,837\n因為每一屆考試院對這個都有一些各自的想法委員的意見我會把它帶回去院裡面來做演繹\n\n29\n00:10:17,951 --> 00:10:36,597\n那你們需要多久的時間這個沒有辦法保證因為這一題因為一方面第一個它涉及到職權的爭論這個歷來都沒有解決第二個就是所謂政務人員法裡面的規範其實除了剛剛委員講到類似行為規範以外它還有很多很多的面向對但是民主黨\n\n30\n00:10:40,359 --> 00:11:08,852\n我知道你在講什麼但是你們在101年十幾年前就曾經提過草案出來我現在並不是麻煩你們從無到有而是你們原本十幾年前就有那個法案出來了那這十幾年我國的文官制度並沒有大型的變革當年你就提了出草案但現在你跟我說因為關係到很多所以沒有辦法提這個變成說我沒有辦法接受這樣的結論啦是民主黨這會期你們有沒有打算要提\n\n31\n00:11:09,500 --> 00:11:24,585\n目前這個沒有在我們的立法計畫裡面,我們有其他的優先順序我們現在就是保障法跟考級法、安慰班法,這是我們這個會計的重點可是我覺得這樣子等於是推卸任務這個議題的確在院裡一直都是就像你們剛說的,到底行政院該提還是你們該提,你說不知道嘛\n\n32\n00:11:32,982 --> 00:11:53,875\n其實我跟你講上個會期立法院就曾經遇過幾個法案行政院卡在那裡卡很久到最後立法院提自己的版本很多立委提自己的版本然後要表決的時候行政院才趕快塞法案進來難道搞到最後又要讓立法院逼著行政機關來做事情嗎難道一定要走到這一步嗎\n\n33\n00:11:55,199 --> 00:12:14,447\n我跟你講去年很多法案都是這樣嘛都是立法院逼著行政機關把法案送過來不然行政院一卡卡很多年吹哨者保護法也是啊要不是我們拿我們的版本出來一直逼著他他完全不動嘛那我在這邊跟兩位說明一下我真的覺得\n\n34\n00:12:15,387 --> 00:12:37,285\n不管是政務官或是事務官領的都是國家的薪水政務官又是大部分事務官的長官結果階級較低的事務官他有嚴格的行政中立結果位階較高的政務官就完全不受任何的限制這邏輯是錯誤的\n\n35\n00:12:39,583 --> 00:13:04,933\n所以我剛剛有提到了既然我們的公務員的行政中立法裡面他第二條已經說得很清楚了他並不是政務官不用保持行政中立而是需要另立專法就我們現在的政務官卻以沒有專法當作藉口所以他不需要行政中立他上台胡說八道亂扯一通亂講一通然後他也是運用國家的資源讓他去那個現場去那邊胡說八道\n\n36\n00:13:06,636 --> 00:13:31,372\n當然啦他沒有拿他部會的預算出來來開這個他有沒有用公務資源這個要看個案的現況到底是什麼所以我就跟你說不是啦我跟你講你查到最後一堆都不是這樣啦你講一個隨戶會不會跟著他走這也是一個問題我知道隨戶這個狀況就是說隨戶是不管他在就是他對他的安全有責任的話那他這個所以我提出來這個就是說\n\n37\n00:13:32,913 --> 00:13:47,964\n我提出來這個就是說我剛剛講的政務官跟常任農官事務官之間他們對行政中立的要求程度可以不一樣我100%接受也贊成但是政務官的行政中立不能完全沒有任何規範而讓現在\n\n38\n00:13:50,509 --> 00:14:18,749\n的很多政務官他現在上台胡說八道亂講一通好像都沒事情那這樣子的話他底下的事務官們會怎麼去思考去看這個問題所以這個部分我想說要麻煩你們注意一下那另外我想請你們兩個月內能夠提一個資料給我因為我剛本來要提但時間上面來不及提就是我希望說全國公務員的待遇跟全國薪資那個水平的差異\n\n39\n00:14:20,730 --> 00:14:45,996\n能夠兩個月內給我一份報告我想了解一下之間的差異如果要回到實際上的薪資這個真的是要人事總書的資料才有我們並沒有這個資料我們的待遇在法治上是行政院主管那不然這樣好了這個部分因為我們本來是希望說考試院這邊提不然我再一個\n\n40\n00:14:47,858 --> 00:15:02,397\n好好沒問題好那這部分我再去跟他們提那這個部分你們有去注意到嗎因為我後來看了一下那個初等考試初等考試如果一年收14個月年收入不到50萬\n\n41\n00:15:04,518 --> 00:15:25,609\n本考試是沒有啦不過我們應該這樣講我們現在初等考試的人非常非常少我跟委員報告這個我現在可以因為我當過人事長我大概有知道這些資料應該這樣講我們的平均的年所得初任的高考三等的年所得現在大概應該有到70萬左右啦\n\n42\n00:15:28,397 --> 00:15:54,024\n因為現在最近的資料應該是這樣那個別的領域確實跟民間薪資比較要個別去譬如說檢察官怎麼跟律師比譬如說土木工程跟外面比這個是更細的部分如果用全國平均數那是一個比較的方式我想我這樣跟委員報告就是至少薪資的部分你們也有在注意嗎那詳細的是不是沒關係我跟人總他們要但是你們自己也要注意到薪資的這個部分以及\n\n43\n00:15:54,844 --> 00:16:15,665\n甚至資訊人員的那個差距跟外面的差距很大我國政府機關裡面的資訊人員跟外面民間的資訊人員的那個數據差距資訊差距太大你這樣找不到人啦完全找不到總署也一直在想已經做了一些調整的措施但是還是有一些差距我的要解釋這樣子好好好時間關係那這樣子就謝謝你們\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1857\t8921\t好 我們麻煩秘書長請秘書長委員長好 那我想請問一下\n25811\t54175\t考試院這邊就是一個很簡單的問題我想說我們提到公務員的中立規定的時候其實我們很清楚就是目前的作為是把常任文官跟政務官其實是在行政中立上面是有一個區別嘛對不對那我先想請教一下考試院公務員下班或者是假日可不可以去參加候選人的造勢大會或是為特定候選人站台\n54855\t72700\t然後喊動算 可以這樣嗎我請部長來說明好 請部長中立法裡面還是有規範它好像第九條之後還是有規範不管上下班時間 工人不可以做的行為是 好 那部長這個是指常任文官對不對對 沒錯好 那\n73941\t96702\t其實今天我是覺得就常任務官的部分是這樣規定沒有錯但是呢就像剛剛秘書長也有提到的政務官的部分確實依照目前的中立法它是好像是排除掉政務官的適用但是呢我想請問一下那政務官到底有沒有行政中立的義務就法律的精神\n97785\t121290\t我想就法律精神政務官不可以動用這個公家的資源去從事他政黨的一個活動或者政治性的活動我想這是一個作為一個政務官應該有自己的倫理的規範我的意思是說就依照法律的精神政務官到底有沒有行政中立的義務要看委員界定的行政中立的內涵是什麼\n122401\t140942\t因為根據我們法律裡面 我們行政中立 老實說它是一個比較廣泛的一個界定啦並我們沒有真正界定做行政中立法真正的行政中立法裡面絕大部分是講參與政治活動啦好 那沒關係啦 這樣好了那我來直接跟你們說齁其實公務員的行政中立法並不是說\n142183\t165478\t並不是說政務官沒有行政中立的義務而是說他要求是另立專法所以我查到了公務人員行政中立法第二條他的立法理由其實說得很清楚他主要是提到就是說因為政務官他是屬於政治任命或是民選所產生他跟常任文官有別所以這個部分他以另專法來規範\n168820\t181923\t對不對但是呢我國現在對於政務官完全沒有專法嘛之前有幾個早案提出來但是目前都沒有立法成功那我想請問一下現在考試院這邊有什麼想法就政務官的部分\n184439\t206228\t我跟你們報告 政務官這個體系我知道在社會上有不同的討論不過考試院根據憲法執掌是負責公務人員那畢竟政務人員並不是依法考試及格任用的人所以如果有這方面的一個議題 需要專責立法這應該會是屬於行政院的推測沒有啊 你考試院在101年9月28號曾經有送過一個政務人員卡\n210009\t236011\t草案啊當初曾經有送過這不是說跟你們無關啊不過行政院那邊後來有一些意見就是說政務人員應該是由行政院這邊因為畢竟所有的政務人員大部分都在行政院裡面負責而且包括地方政府相關議題所以我的意思是回到憲法本身的那個那個考試院執掌就是公務人員這個概念的話我想這是兩院要繼續去做討論的部分到底如果真的有必要要往這邊立法的話是由哪一個\n236972\t251436\t院來負責不是 這當然有這個必要性嘛因為我剛剛講了中立法的第二條它的立法理由已經說得很清楚了政務官不是不用福音行政中立他是說他要另以專法來論斷來那個立法\n254477\t283858\t他是說另外要有專法而不是說他沒有行政中立的義務結果呢現在大家的解釋變成說這個行政中立只有事務官常樂文官要政務官沒有現在變成這樣子啊那以我所了解的民進黨的做法我們常常講法律是道德的最後一道防線但是現在民進黨把法律跟道德拉成一樣然後他的作為甚至還低於道德低於法律違法只要不被抓到民進黨都覺得OK啊\n284278\t312537\t那在這個角度來說因為我最近看到行政院變成是全國最大競選總部行政院變成全國最大的大二霸的總部那這樣就不對了嘛這樣子政務官他也是領國家的錢不要講別的啦你今天你搭車出去坐公務車出去你的水戶出去你的助理出去這些都是國家的經費所養的人嘛國家經費所支付的那你說政務官不是一般的公務員所以\n313197\t323201\t所以也不歸你們管也不歸什麼然後你們在101年也曾經提過法案希望就政務官的部分規範就現在不能說現在反而又不管你們的事了嗎應該是說\n326538\t343130\t是不是由考試院來提出政務委員法這件事情一直是考試院跟行政院之間的爭論那我回到行政中立的部分就是說政務官也不是如果委員所說並不是完全沒有行政中立的相當規範就是剛剛部長也有講如果你動用機關資源的這個部分其實一樣不可以\n343730\t364131\t那個不分事務官政務官其實都不可以做這件事但是就參與某些政治活動而言政務官跟事務官的規範就會不一樣這個歷來一直中央地方的政務官慢慢也形成了一定的這個這個部分我了解我也可以接受就是政務官跟常任文官他們在行政中立上面的\n364992\t392365\t程度有所區別 這個我都可以接受也不會很無理的要求說絕對兩個要拉到一樣但是我要一直在講最近這段時間發生的事情譬如說行政院假借政策宣傳這個名目就全台灣到處搞了在那邊喊大罷免還有立法委員在上面唱歌要罷免怎麼樣然後他所用的是行政院所謂的下鄉的政策宣傳\n393385\t420844\t那這個東西叫我怎麼相信它是一個行政中立的概念好 那之前那個草屯的政長補選嘛那在那個補選的會場的時候我們的那個政次 那個誰 那個陳時中還有我們現在衛福部的次長林靜儀不也去那邊大呼小叫嗎那這兩個人 他是政務官沒有錯但是呢 他卻在現場 在那邊助選然後在那邊講一些有的沒的 甚至在講罷免的事情\n421664\t441618\t但是我就想回到我剛剛說的這些人去那邊他也是掛他的官銜去他並不是用他個人的名義去再來他去的時候就我剛剛講的他要不要使用他的公務車他要不要使用他的隨扈那有一些像部會首長級的出門也是會帶隨扈那這些也不就是公\n442642\t463799\t公共的費用嗎所以我在這邊講啦我剛剛回到剛剛我說的我不是說政務官他對於新任總理的要求強度要跟常任文官一樣但是是不是考試院這邊你能夠去思考一個點既然你們101年就已經提過政務人員法草案那\n464600\t483080\t可不可以趕快提出來就政務官的部分有關行政中立的部分要趕快法治化要加以規範而不是像現在被很多人剛好抓到你這個點反正法無明文嘛法無明文我就幹我的啊就我剛剛講的在民進黨執政之下\n484824\t500200\t他的法律跟他的道德觀是拉到跟法律一樣我們講法律是道德的最後一道防線結果他現在拉到一樣甚至他的作為比法律還不如只要違法沒被抓一切都好那這個當然兩位是\n501241\t521152\t兩位是政務官嘛那我當然我講這個你們也不方便回答什麼這我都可以理解我自己也做過政務官我自己也做過所以我很能夠清楚政務官跟常任無我做過常任無官我也做過政務官所以我了解這兩個的區別在哪裡但是是不是考試院這邊你們要趕快提出專法出來\n522284\t545086\t要讓我國的政務官去有所規範因為這些政務官都是常任文官的長官我們都知道嘛在我國的體制裡面政務官通常都是常任文官的長官那這些常任文官他們在職場上面他看到他的長官就去那裡站台就去那裡喊大罷免就去那裡喊那些\n546287\t557519\t為特定的候選人 特定政黨的候選人在那邊助選然後在那邊講其他人非同政黨的人的壞話那請問一下底下的這些常任文官他們的想法是什麼\n558980\t578470\t以人性的角度去出發很多常任務官他會認為說要巴結他的長官他可能求升監或求工作更順利他可能會去巴結他的長官這是全世界各國都有的人性的問題這樣子如果我們放任這些政務官毫無節制的\n580022\t608132\t違反行政中立的話 那這不對啊更何況我剛剛提到了中立法的第二條立法理由就講不是不用政務官不是不用去遵守行政中立而是要另以專法來設置因為事務官跟常任文官跟政務官就是不一樣嘛但是你們現在卻這個法就完全沒有提出來你們可不可以趕快像101年那樣趕快把草案提出來\n609400\t616837\t因為每一屆考試院對這個都有一些各自的想法委員的意見我會把它帶回去院裡面來做演繹\n617951\t636597\t那你們需要多久的時間這個沒有辦法保證因為這一題因為一方面第一個它涉及到職權的爭論這個歷來都沒有解決第二個就是所謂政務人員法裡面的規範其實除了剛剛委員講到類似行為規範以外它還有很多很多的面向對 但是民主黨\n640359\t668852\t我知道你在講什麼但是你們在101年十幾年前就曾經提過草案出來我現在並不是麻煩你們從無到有而是你們原本十幾年前就有那個法案出來了那這十幾年我國的文官制度並沒有大型的變革當年你就提了出草案但現在你跟我說因為關係到很多所以沒有辦法提這個變成說我沒有辦法接受這樣的結論啦是 民主黨這會期你們有沒有打算要提\n669500\t684585\t目前這個沒有在我們的立法計畫裡面,我們有其他的優先順序我們現在就是保障法跟考級法、安慰班法,這是我們這個會計的重點可是我覺得這樣子等於是推卸任務這個議題的確在院裡一直都是就像你們剛說的,到底行政院該提還是你們該提,你說不知道嘛\n692982\t713875\t其實我跟你講 上個會期立法院就曾經遇過幾個法案 行政院卡在那裡卡很久到最後立法院提自己的版本 很多立委提自己的版本然後要表決的時候 行政院才趕快塞法案進來難道搞到最後又要讓立法院逼著行政機關來做事情嗎難道一定要走到這一步嗎\n715199\t734447\t我跟你講去年很多法案都是這樣嘛都是立法院逼著行政機關把法案送過來不然行政院一卡卡很多年吹哨者保護法也是啊要不是我們拿我們的版本出來一直逼著他他完全不動嘛那我在這邊跟兩位說明一下我真的覺得\n735387\t757285\t不管是政務官或是事務官領的都是國家的薪水政務官又是大部分事務官的長官結果階級較低的事務官他有嚴格的行政中立結果位階較高的政務官就完全不受任何的限制這邏輯是錯誤的\n759583\t784933\t所以我剛剛有提到了 既然我們的公務員的行政中立法裡面他第二條已經說得很清楚了他並不是政務官不用保持行政中立 而是需要另立專法就我們現在的政務官卻以沒有專法當作藉口所以他不需要行政中立 他上台胡說八道亂扯一通亂講一通 然後他也是運用國家的資源讓他去那個現場 去那邊胡說八道\n786636\t811372\t當然啦他沒有拿他部會的預算出來來開這個他有沒有用公務資源這個要看個案的現況到底是什麼所以我就跟你說不是啦我跟你講你查到最後一堆都不是這樣啦你講一個隨戶會不會跟著他走這也是一個問題我知道隨戶這個狀況就是說隨戶是不管他在就是他對他的安全有責任的話那他這個所以我提出來這個就是說\n812913\t827964\t我提出來這個就是說我剛剛講的政務官跟常任農官事務官之間他們對行政中立的要求程度可以不一樣我100%接受也贊成但是政務官的行政中立不能完全沒有任何規範而讓現在\n830509\t858749\t的很多政務官他現在上台胡說八道亂講一通好像都沒事情那這樣子的話他底下的事務官們會怎麼去思考去看這個問題所以這個部分我想說要麻煩你們注意一下那另外我想請你們兩個月內能夠提一個資料給我因為我剛本來要提但時間上面來不及提就是我希望說全國公務員的待遇跟全國薪資那個水平的差異\n860730\t885996\t能夠兩個月內給我一份報告我想了解一下之間的差異如果要回到實際上的薪資這個真的是要人事總書的資料才有我們並沒有這個資料我們的待遇在法治上是行政院主管那不然這樣好了這個部分因為我們本來是希望說考試院這邊提不然我再一個\n887858\t902397\t好好沒問題好那這部分我再去跟他們提那這個部分你們有去注意到嗎因為我後來看了一下那個初等考試初等考試如果一年收14個月年收入不到50萬\n904518\t925609\t本考試是沒有啦不過我們應該這樣講我們現在初等考試的人非常非常少我跟委員報告這個我現在可以因為我當過人事長我大概有知道這些資料應該這樣講我們的平均的年所得初任的高考三等的年所得現在大概應該有到70萬左右啦\n928397\t954024\t因為現在最近的資料應該是這樣那個別的領域確實跟民間薪資比較要個別去譬如說檢察官怎麼跟律師比譬如說土木工程跟外面比這個是更細的部分如果用全國平均數那是一個比較的方式我想我這樣跟委員報告就是至少薪資的部分你們也有在注意嗎那詳細的是不是沒關係我跟人總他們要但是你們自己也要注意到薪資的這個部分以及\n954844\t975665\t甚至資訊人員的那個差距跟外面的差距很大我國政府機關裡面的資訊人員跟外面民間的資訊人員的那個數據差距 資訊差距太大你這樣找不到人啦 完全找不到總署也一直在想 已經做了一些調整的措施但是還是有一些差距 我的要解釋這樣子好 好 好 時間關係 那這樣子就謝謝你們\n","txt":"好 我們麻煩秘書長請秘書長委員長好 那我想請問一下\n考試院這邊就是一個很簡單的問題我想說我們提到公務員的中立規定的時候其實我們很清楚就是目前的作為是把常任文官跟政務官其實是在行政中立上面是有一個區別嘛對不對那我先想請教一下考試院公務員下班或者是假日可不可以去參加候選人的造勢大會或是為特定候選人站台\n然後喊動算 可以這樣嗎我請部長來說明好 請部長中立法裡面還是有規範它好像第九條之後還是有規範不管上下班時間 工人不可以做的行為是 好 那部長這個是指常任文官對不對對 沒錯好 那\n其實今天我是覺得就常任務官的部分是這樣規定沒有錯但是呢就像剛剛秘書長也有提到的政務官的部分確實依照目前的中立法它是好像是排除掉政務官的適用但是呢我想請問一下那政務官到底有沒有行政中立的義務就法律的精神\n我想就法律精神政務官不可以動用這個公家的資源去從事他政黨的一個活動或者政治性的活動我想這是一個作為一個政務官應該有自己的倫理的規範我的意思是說就依照法律的精神政務官到底有沒有行政中立的義務要看委員界定的行政中立的內涵是什麼\n因為根據我們法律裡面 我們行政中立 老實說它是一個比較廣泛的一個界定啦並我們沒有真正界定做行政中立法真正的行政中立法裡面絕大部分是講參與政治活動啦好 那沒關係啦 這樣好了那我來直接跟你們說齁其實公務員的行政中立法並不是說\n並不是說政務官沒有行政中立的義務而是說他要求是另立專法所以我查到了公務人員行政中立法第二條他的立法理由其實說得很清楚他主要是提到就是說因為政務官他是屬於政治任命或是民選所產生他跟常任文官有別所以這個部分他以另專法來規範\n對不對但是呢我國現在對於政務官完全沒有專法嘛之前有幾個早案提出來但是目前都沒有立法成功那我想請問一下現在考試院這邊有什麼想法就政務官的部分\n我跟你們報告 政務官這個體系我知道在社會上有不同的討論不過考試院根據憲法執掌是負責公務人員那畢竟政務人員並不是依法考試及格任用的人所以如果有這方面的一個議題 需要專責立法這應該會是屬於行政院的推測沒有啊 你考試院在101年9月28號曾經有送過一個政務人員卡\n草案啊當初曾經有送過這不是說跟你們無關啊不過行政院那邊後來有一些意見就是說政務人員應該是由行政院這邊因為畢竟所有的政務人員大部分都在行政院裡面負責而且包括地方政府相關議題所以我的意思是回到憲法本身的那個那個考試院執掌就是公務人員這個概念的話我想這是兩院要繼續去做討論的部分到底如果真的有必要要往這邊立法的話是由哪一個\n院來負責不是 這當然有這個必要性嘛因為我剛剛講了中立法的第二條它的立法理由已經說得很清楚了政務官不是不用福音行政中立他是說他要另以專法來論斷來那個立法\n他是說另外要有專法而不是說他沒有行政中立的義務結果呢現在大家的解釋變成說這個行政中立只有事務官常樂文官要政務官沒有現在變成這樣子啊那以我所了解的民進黨的做法我們常常講法律是道德的最後一道防線但是現在民進黨把法律跟道德拉成一樣然後他的作為甚至還低於道德低於法律違法只要不被抓到民進黨都覺得OK啊\n那在這個角度來說因為我最近看到行政院變成是全國最大競選總部行政院變成全國最大的大二霸的總部那這樣就不對了嘛這樣子政務官他也是領國家的錢不要講別的啦你今天你搭車出去坐公務車出去你的水戶出去你的助理出去這些都是國家的經費所養的人嘛國家經費所支付的那你說政務官不是一般的公務員所以\n所以也不歸你們管也不歸什麼然後你們在101年也曾經提過法案希望就政務官的部分規範就現在不能說現在反而又不管你們的事了嗎應該是說\n是不是由考試院來提出政務委員法這件事情一直是考試院跟行政院之間的爭論那我回到行政中立的部分就是說政務官也不是如果委員所說並不是完全沒有行政中立的相當規範就是剛剛部長也有講如果你動用機關資源的這個部分其實一樣不可以\n那個不分事務官政務官其實都不可以做這件事但是就參與某些政治活動而言政務官跟事務官的規範就會不一樣這個歷來一直中央地方的政務官慢慢也形成了一定的這個這個部分我了解我也可以接受就是政務官跟常任文官他們在行政中立上面的\n程度有所區別 這個我都可以接受也不會很無理的要求說絕對兩個要拉到一樣但是我要一直在講最近這段時間發生的事情譬如說行政院假借政策宣傳這個名目就全台灣到處搞了在那邊喊大罷免還有立法委員在上面唱歌要罷免怎麼樣然後他所用的是行政院所謂的下鄉的政策宣傳\n那這個東西叫我怎麼相信它是一個行政中立的概念好 那之前那個草屯的政長補選嘛那在那個補選的會場的時候我們的那個政次 那個誰 那個陳時中還有我們現在衛福部的次長林靜儀不也去那邊大呼小叫嗎那這兩個人 他是政務官沒有錯但是呢 他卻在現場 在那邊助選然後在那邊講一些有的沒的 甚至在講罷免的事情\n但是我就想回到我剛剛說的這些人去那邊他也是掛他的官銜去他並不是用他個人的名義去再來他去的時候就我剛剛講的他要不要使用他的公務車他要不要使用他的隨扈那有一些像部會首長級的出門也是會帶隨扈那這些也不就是公\n公共的費用嗎所以我在這邊講啦我剛剛回到剛剛我說的我不是說政務官他對於新任總理的要求強度要跟常任文官一樣但是是不是考試院這邊你能夠去思考一個點既然你們101年就已經提過政務人員法草案那\n可不可以趕快提出來就政務官的部分有關行政中立的部分要趕快法治化要加以規範而不是像現在被很多人剛好抓到你這個點反正法無明文嘛法無明文我就幹我的啊就我剛剛講的在民進黨執政之下\n他的法律跟他的道德觀是拉到跟法律一樣我們講法律是道德的最後一道防線結果他現在拉到一樣甚至他的作為比法律還不如只要違法沒被抓一切都好那這個當然兩位是\n兩位是政務官嘛那我當然我講這個你們也不方便回答什麼這我都可以理解我自己也做過政務官我自己也做過所以我很能夠清楚政務官跟常任無我做過常任無官我也做過政務官所以我了解這兩個的區別在哪裡但是是不是考試院這邊你們要趕快提出專法出來\n要讓我國的政務官去有所規範因為這些政務官都是常任文官的長官我們都知道嘛在我國的體制裡面政務官通常都是常任文官的長官那這些常任文官他們在職場上面他看到他的長官就去那裡站台就去那裡喊大罷免就去那裡喊那些\n為特定的候選人 特定政黨的候選人在那邊助選然後在那邊講其他人非同政黨的人的壞話那請問一下底下的這些常任文官他們的想法是什麼\n以人性的角度去出發很多常任務官他會認為說要巴結他的長官他可能求升監或求工作更順利他可能會去巴結他的長官這是全世界各國都有的人性的問題這樣子如果我們放任這些政務官毫無節制的\n違反行政中立的話 那這不對啊更何況我剛剛提到了中立法的第二條立法理由就講不是不用政務官不是不用去遵守行政中立而是要另以專法來設置因為事務官跟常任文官跟政務官就是不一樣嘛但是你們現在卻這個法就完全沒有提出來你們可不可以趕快像101年那樣趕快把草案提出來\n因為每一屆考試院對這個都有一些各自的想法委員的意見我會把它帶回去院裡面來做演繹\n那你們需要多久的時間這個沒有辦法保證因為這一題因為一方面第一個它涉及到職權的爭論這個歷來都沒有解決第二個就是所謂政務人員法裡面的規範其實除了剛剛委員講到類似行為規範以外它還有很多很多的面向對 但是民主黨\n我知道你在講什麼但是你們在101年十幾年前就曾經提過草案出來我現在並不是麻煩你們從無到有而是你們原本十幾年前就有那個法案出來了那這十幾年我國的文官制度並沒有大型的變革當年你就提了出草案但現在你跟我說因為關係到很多所以沒有辦法提這個變成說我沒有辦法接受這樣的結論啦是 民主黨這會期你們有沒有打算要提\n目前這個沒有在我們的立法計畫裡面,我們有其他的優先順序我們現在就是保障法跟考級法、安慰班法,這是我們這個會計的重點可是我覺得這樣子等於是推卸任務這個議題的確在院裡一直都是就像你們剛說的,到底行政院該提還是你們該提,你說不知道嘛\n其實我跟你講 上個會期立法院就曾經遇過幾個法案 行政院卡在那裡卡很久到最後立法院提自己的版本 很多立委提自己的版本然後要表決的時候 行政院才趕快塞法案進來難道搞到最後又要讓立法院逼著行政機關來做事情嗎難道一定要走到這一步嗎\n我跟你講去年很多法案都是這樣嘛都是立法院逼著行政機關把法案送過來不然行政院一卡卡很多年吹哨者保護法也是啊要不是我們拿我們的版本出來一直逼著他他完全不動嘛那我在這邊跟兩位說明一下我真的覺得\n不管是政務官或是事務官領的都是國家的薪水政務官又是大部分事務官的長官結果階級較低的事務官他有嚴格的行政中立結果位階較高的政務官就完全不受任何的限制這邏輯是錯誤的\n所以我剛剛有提到了 既然我們的公務員的行政中立法裡面他第二條已經說得很清楚了他並不是政務官不用保持行政中立 而是需要另立專法就我們現在的政務官卻以沒有專法當作藉口所以他不需要行政中立 他上台胡說八道亂扯一通亂講一通 然後他也是運用國家的資源讓他去那個現場 去那邊胡說八道\n當然啦他沒有拿他部會的預算出來來開這個他有沒有用公務資源這個要看個案的現況到底是什麼所以我就跟你說不是啦我跟你講你查到最後一堆都不是這樣啦你講一個隨戶會不會跟著他走這也是一個問題我知道隨戶這個狀況就是說隨戶是不管他在就是他對他的安全有責任的話那他這個所以我提出來這個就是說\n我提出來這個就是說我剛剛講的政務官跟常任農官事務官之間他們對行政中立的要求程度可以不一樣我100%接受也贊成但是政務官的行政中立不能完全沒有任何規範而讓現在\n的很多政務官他現在上台胡說八道亂講一通好像都沒事情那這樣子的話他底下的事務官們會怎麼去思考去看這個問題所以這個部分我想說要麻煩你們注意一下那另外我想請你們兩個月內能夠提一個資料給我因為我剛本來要提但時間上面來不及提就是我希望說全國公務員的待遇跟全國薪資那個水平的差異\n能夠兩個月內給我一份報告我想了解一下之間的差異如果要回到實際上的薪資這個真的是要人事總書的資料才有我們並沒有這個資料我們的待遇在法治上是行政院主管那不然這樣好了這個部分因為我們本來是希望說考試院這邊提不然我再一個\n好好沒問題好那這部分我再去跟他們提那這個部分你們有去注意到嗎因為我後來看了一下那個初等考試初等考試如果一年收14個月年收入不到50萬\n本考試是沒有啦不過我們應該這樣講我們現在初等考試的人非常非常少我跟委員報告這個我現在可以因為我當過人事長我大概有知道這些資料應該這樣講我們的平均的年所得初任的高考三等的年所得現在大概應該有到70萬左右啦\n因為現在最近的資料應該是這樣那個別的領域確實跟民間薪資比較要個別去譬如說檢察官怎麼跟律師比譬如說土木工程跟外面比這個是更細的部分如果用全國平均數那是一個比較的方式我想我這樣跟委員報告就是至少薪資的部分你們也有在注意嗎那詳細的是不是沒關係我跟人總他們要但是你們自己也要注意到薪資的這個部分以及\n甚至資訊人員的那個差距跟外面的差距很大我國政府機關裡面的資訊人員跟外面民間的資訊人員的那個數據差距 資訊差距太大你這樣找不到人啦 完全找不到總署也一直在想 已經做了一些調整的措施但是還是有一些差距 我的要解釋這樣子好 好 好 時間關係 那這樣子就謝謝你們\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.857 --> 00:08.921\n好我們麻煩秘書長請秘書長委員長好那我想請問一下\n\n00:25.811 --> 00:54.175\n考試院這邊就是一個很簡單的問題我想說我們提到公務員的中立規定的時候其實我們很清楚就是目前的作為是把常任文官跟政務官其實是在行政中立上面是有一個區別嘛對不對那我先想請教一下考試院公務員下班或者是假日可不可以去參加候選人的造勢大會或是為特定候選人站台\n\n00:54.855 --> 01:12.700\n然後喊動算可以這樣嗎我請部長來說明好請部長中立法裡面還是有規範它好像第九條之後還是有規範不管上下班時間工人不可以做的行為是好那部長這個是指常任文官對不對對沒錯好那\n\n01:13.941 --> 01:36.702\n其實今天我是覺得就常任務官的部分是這樣規定沒有錯但是呢就像剛剛秘書長也有提到的政務官的部分確實依照目前的中立法它是好像是排除掉政務官的適用但是呢我想請問一下那政務官到底有沒有行政中立的義務就法律的精神\n\n01:37.785 --> 02:01.290\n我想就法律精神政務官不可以動用這個公家的資源去從事他政黨的一個活動或者政治性的活動我想這是一個作為一個政務官應該有自己的倫理的規範我的意思是說就依照法律的精神政務官到底有沒有行政中立的義務要看委員界定的行政中立的內涵是什麼\n\n02:02.401 --> 02:20.942\n因為根據我們法律裡面我們行政中立老實說它是一個比較廣泛的一個界定啦並我們沒有真正界定做行政中立法真正的行政中立法裡面絕大部分是講參與政治活動啦好那沒關係啦這樣好了那我來直接跟你們說齁其實公務員的行政中立法並不是說\n\n02:22.183 --> 02:45.478\n並不是說政務官沒有行政中立的義務而是說他要求是另立專法所以我查到了公務人員行政中立法第二條他的立法理由其實說得很清楚他主要是提到就是說因為政務官他是屬於政治任命或是民選所產生他跟常任文官有別所以這個部分他以另專法來規範\n\n02:48.820 --> 03:01.923\n對不對但是呢我國現在對於政務官完全沒有專法嘛之前有幾個早案提出來但是目前都沒有立法成功那我想請問一下現在考試院這邊有什麼想法就政務官的部分\n\n03:04.439 --> 03:26.228\n我跟你們報告政務官這個體系我知道在社會上有不同的討論不過考試院根據憲法執掌是負責公務人員那畢竟政務人員並不是依法考試及格任用的人所以如果有這方面的一個議題需要專責立法這應該會是屬於行政院的推測沒有啊你考試院在101年9月28號曾經有送過一個政務人員卡\n\n03:30.009 --> 03:56.011\n草案啊當初曾經有送過這不是說跟你們無關啊不過行政院那邊後來有一些意見就是說政務人員應該是由行政院這邊因為畢竟所有的政務人員大部分都在行政院裡面負責而且包括地方政府相關議題所以我的意思是回到憲法本身的那個那個考試院執掌就是公務人員這個概念的話我想這是兩院要繼續去做討論的部分到底如果真的有必要要往這邊立法的話是由哪一個\n\n03:56.972 --> 04:11.436\n院來負責不是這當然有這個必要性嘛因為我剛剛講了中立法的第二條它的立法理由已經說得很清楚了政務官不是不用福音行政中立他是說他要另以專法來論斷來那個立法\n\n04:14.477 --> 04:43.858\n他是說另外要有專法而不是說他沒有行政中立的義務結果呢現在大家的解釋變成說這個行政中立只有事務官常樂文官要政務官沒有現在變成這樣子啊那以我所了解的民進黨的做法我們常常講法律是道德的最後一道防線但是現在民進黨把法律跟道德拉成一樣然後他的作為甚至還低於道德低於法律違法只要不被抓到民進黨都覺得OK啊\n\n04:44.278 --> 05:12.537\n那在這個角度來說因為我最近看到行政院變成是全國最大競選總部行政院變成全國最大的大二霸的總部那這樣就不對了嘛這樣子政務官他也是領國家的錢不要講別的啦你今天你搭車出去坐公務車出去你的水戶出去你的助理出去這些都是國家的經費所養的人嘛國家經費所支付的那你說政務官不是一般的公務員所以\n\n05:13.197 --> 05:23.201\n所以也不歸你們管也不歸什麼然後你們在101年也曾經提過法案希望就政務官的部分規範就現在不能說現在反而又不管你們的事了嗎應該是說\n\n05:26.538 --> 05:43.130\n是不是由考試院來提出政務委員法這件事情一直是考試院跟行政院之間的爭論那我回到行政中立的部分就是說政務官也不是如果委員所說並不是完全沒有行政中立的相當規範就是剛剛部長也有講如果你動用機關資源的這個部分其實一樣不可以\n\n05:43.730 --> 06:04.131\n那個不分事務官政務官其實都不可以做這件事但是就參與某些政治活動而言政務官跟事務官的規範就會不一樣這個歷來一直中央地方的政務官慢慢也形成了一定的這個這個部分我了解我也可以接受就是政務官跟常任文官他們在行政中立上面的\n\n06:04.992 --> 06:32.365\n程度有所區別這個我都可以接受也不會很無理的要求說絕對兩個要拉到一樣但是我要一直在講最近這段時間發生的事情譬如說行政院假借政策宣傳這個名目就全台灣到處搞了在那邊喊大罷免還有立法委員在上面唱歌要罷免怎麼樣然後他所用的是行政院所謂的下鄉的政策宣傳\n\n06:33.385 --> 07:00.844\n那這個東西叫我怎麼相信它是一個行政中立的概念好那之前那個草屯的政長補選嘛那在那個補選的會場的時候我們的那個政次那個誰那個陳時中還有我們現在衛福部的次長林靜儀不也去那邊大呼小叫嗎那這兩個人他是政務官沒有錯但是呢他卻在現場在那邊助選然後在那邊講一些有的沒的甚至在講罷免的事情\n\n07:01.664 --> 07:21.618\n但是我就想回到我剛剛說的這些人去那邊他也是掛他的官銜去他並不是用他個人的名義去再來他去的時候就我剛剛講的他要不要使用他的公務車他要不要使用他的隨扈那有一些像部會首長級的出門也是會帶隨扈那這些也不就是公\n\n07:22.642 --> 07:43.799\n公共的費用嗎所以我在這邊講啦我剛剛回到剛剛我說的我不是說政務官他對於新任總理的要求強度要跟常任文官一樣但是是不是考試院這邊你能夠去思考一個點既然你們101年就已經提過政務人員法草案那\n\n07:44.600 --> 08:03.080\n可不可以趕快提出來就政務官的部分有關行政中立的部分要趕快法治化要加以規範而不是像現在被很多人剛好抓到你這個點反正法無明文嘛法無明文我就幹我的啊就我剛剛講的在民進黨執政之下\n\n08:04.824 --> 08:20.200\n他的法律跟他的道德觀是拉到跟法律一樣我們講法律是道德的最後一道防線結果他現在拉到一樣甚至他的作為比法律還不如只要違法沒被抓一切都好那這個當然兩位是\n\n08:21.241 --> 08:41.152\n兩位是政務官嘛那我當然我講這個你們也不方便回答什麼這我都可以理解我自己也做過政務官我自己也做過所以我很能夠清楚政務官跟常任無我做過常任無官我也做過政務官所以我了解這兩個的區別在哪裡但是是不是考試院這邊你們要趕快提出專法出來\n\n08:42.284 --> 09:05.086\n要讓我國的政務官去有所規範因為這些政務官都是常任文官的長官我們都知道嘛在我國的體制裡面政務官通常都是常任文官的長官那這些常任文官他們在職場上面他看到他的長官就去那裡站台就去那裡喊大罷免就去那裡喊那些\n\n09:06.287 --> 09:17.519\n為特定的候選人特定政黨的候選人在那邊助選然後在那邊講其他人非同政黨的人的壞話那請問一下底下的這些常任文官他們的想法是什麼\n\n09:18.980 --> 09:38.470\n以人性的角度去出發很多常任務官他會認為說要巴結他的長官他可能求升監或求工作更順利他可能會去巴結他的長官這是全世界各國都有的人性的問題這樣子如果我們放任這些政務官毫無節制的\n\n09:40.022 --> 10:08.132\n違反行政中立的話那這不對啊更何況我剛剛提到了中立法的第二條立法理由就講不是不用政務官不是不用去遵守行政中立而是要另以專法來設置因為事務官跟常任文官跟政務官就是不一樣嘛但是你們現在卻這個法就完全沒有提出來你們可不可以趕快像101年那樣趕快把草案提出來\n\n10:09.400 --> 10:16.837\n因為每一屆考試院對這個都有一些各自的想法委員的意見我會把它帶回去院裡面來做演繹\n\n10:17.951 --> 10:36.597\n那你們需要多久的時間這個沒有辦法保證因為這一題因為一方面第一個它涉及到職權的爭論這個歷來都沒有解決第二個就是所謂政務人員法裡面的規範其實除了剛剛委員講到類似行為規範以外它還有很多很多的面向對但是民主黨\n\n10:40.359 --> 11:08.852\n我知道你在講什麼但是你們在101年十幾年前就曾經提過草案出來我現在並不是麻煩你們從無到有而是你們原本十幾年前就有那個法案出來了那這十幾年我國的文官制度並沒有大型的變革當年你就提了出草案但現在你跟我說因為關係到很多所以沒有辦法提這個變成說我沒有辦法接受這樣的結論啦是民主黨這會期你們有沒有打算要提\n\n11:09.500 --> 11:24.585\n目前這個沒有在我們的立法計畫裡面,我們有其他的優先順序我們現在就是保障法跟考級法、安慰班法,這是我們這個會計的重點可是我覺得這樣子等於是推卸任務這個議題的確在院裡一直都是就像你們剛說的,到底行政院該提還是你們該提,你說不知道嘛\n\n11:32.982 --> 11:53.875\n其實我跟你講上個會期立法院就曾經遇過幾個法案行政院卡在那裡卡很久到最後立法院提自己的版本很多立委提自己的版本然後要表決的時候行政院才趕快塞法案進來難道搞到最後又要讓立法院逼著行政機關來做事情嗎難道一定要走到這一步嗎\n\n11:55.199 --> 12:14.447\n我跟你講去年很多法案都是這樣嘛都是立法院逼著行政機關把法案送過來不然行政院一卡卡很多年吹哨者保護法也是啊要不是我們拿我們的版本出來一直逼著他他完全不動嘛那我在這邊跟兩位說明一下我真的覺得\n\n12:15.387 --> 12:37.285\n不管是政務官或是事務官領的都是國家的薪水政務官又是大部分事務官的長官結果階級較低的事務官他有嚴格的行政中立結果位階較高的政務官就完全不受任何的限制這邏輯是錯誤的\n\n12:39.583 --> 13:04.933\n所以我剛剛有提到了既然我們的公務員的行政中立法裡面他第二條已經說得很清楚了他並不是政務官不用保持行政中立而是需要另立專法就我們現在的政務官卻以沒有專法當作藉口所以他不需要行政中立他上台胡說八道亂扯一通亂講一通然後他也是運用國家的資源讓他去那個現場去那邊胡說八道\n\n13:06.636 --> 13:31.372\n當然啦他沒有拿他部會的預算出來來開這個他有沒有用公務資源這個要看個案的現況到底是什麼所以我就跟你說不是啦我跟你講你查到最後一堆都不是這樣啦你講一個隨戶會不會跟著他走這也是一個問題我知道隨戶這個狀況就是說隨戶是不管他在就是他對他的安全有責任的話那他這個所以我提出來這個就是說\n\n13:32.913 --> 13:47.964\n我提出來這個就是說我剛剛講的政務官跟常任農官事務官之間他們對行政中立的要求程度可以不一樣我100%接受也贊成但是政務官的行政中立不能完全沒有任何規範而讓現在\n\n13:50.509 --> 14:18.749\n的很多政務官他現在上台胡說八道亂講一通好像都沒事情那這樣子的話他底下的事務官們會怎麼去思考去看這個問題所以這個部分我想說要麻煩你們注意一下那另外我想請你們兩個月內能夠提一個資料給我因為我剛本來要提但時間上面來不及提就是我希望說全國公務員的待遇跟全國薪資那個水平的差異\n\n14:20.730 --> 14:45.996\n能夠兩個月內給我一份報告我想了解一下之間的差異如果要回到實際上的薪資這個真的是要人事總書的資料才有我們並沒有這個資料我們的待遇在法治上是行政院主管那不然這樣好了這個部分因為我們本來是希望說考試院這邊提不然我再一個\n\n14:47.858 --> 15:02.397\n好好沒問題好那這部分我再去跟他們提那這個部分你們有去注意到嗎因為我後來看了一下那個初等考試初等考試如果一年收14個月年收入不到50萬\n\n15:04.518 --> 15:25.609\n本考試是沒有啦不過我們應該這樣講我們現在初等考試的人非常非常少我跟委員報告這個我現在可以因為我當過人事長我大概有知道這些資料應該這樣講我們的平均的年所得初任的高考三等的年所得現在大概應該有到70萬左右啦\n\n15:28.397 --> 15:54.024\n因為現在最近的資料應該是這樣那個別的領域確實跟民間薪資比較要個別去譬如說檢察官怎麼跟律師比譬如說土木工程跟外面比這個是更細的部分如果用全國平均數那是一個比較的方式我想我這樣跟委員報告就是至少薪資的部分你們也有在注意嗎那詳細的是不是沒關係我跟人總他們要但是你們自己也要注意到薪資的這個部分以及\n\n15:54.844 --> 16:15.665\n甚至資訊人員的那個差距跟外面的差距很大我國政府機關裡面的資訊人員跟外面民間的資訊人員的那個數據差距資訊差距太大你這樣找不到人啦完全找不到總署也一直在想已經做了一些調整的措施但是還是有一些差距我的要解釋這樣子好好好時間關係那這樣子就謝謝你們\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.857,"end":8.921,"text":"好 我們麻煩秘書長請秘書長委員長好 那我想請問一下"},{"start":25.811,"end":54.175,"text":"考試院這邊就是一個很簡單的問題我想說我們提到公務員的中立規定的時候其實我們很清楚就是目前的作為是把常任文官跟政務官其實是在行政中立上面是有一個區別嘛對不對那我先想請教一下考試院公務員下班或者是假日可不可以去參加候選人的造勢大會或是為特定候選人站台"},{"start":54.855,"end":72.7,"text":"然後喊動算 可以這樣嗎我請部長來說明好 請部長中立法裡面還是有規範它好像第九條之後還是有規範不管上下班時間 工人不可以做的行為是 好 那部長這個是指常任文官對不對對 沒錯好 那"},{"start":73.941,"end":96.702,"text":"其實今天我是覺得就常任務官的部分是這樣規定沒有錯但是呢就像剛剛秘書長也有提到的政務官的部分確實依照目前的中立法它是好像是排除掉政務官的適用但是呢我想請問一下那政務官到底有沒有行政中立的義務就法律的精神"},{"start":97.785,"end":121.29,"text":"我想就法律精神政務官不可以動用這個公家的資源去從事他政黨的一個活動或者政治性的活動我想這是一個作為一個政務官應該有自己的倫理的規範我的意思是說就依照法律的精神政務官到底有沒有行政中立的義務要看委員界定的行政中立的內涵是什麼"},{"start":122.401,"end":140.942,"text":"因為根據我們法律裡面 我們行政中立 老實說它是一個比較廣泛的一個界定啦並我們沒有真正界定做行政中立法真正的行政中立法裡面絕大部分是講參與政治活動啦好 那沒關係啦 這樣好了那我來直接跟你們說齁其實公務員的行政中立法並不是說"},{"start":142.183,"end":165.478,"text":"並不是說政務官沒有行政中立的義務而是說他要求是另立專法所以我查到了公務人員行政中立法第二條他的立法理由其實說得很清楚他主要是提到就是說因為政務官他是屬於政治任命或是民選所產生他跟常任文官有別所以這個部分他以另專法來規範"},{"start":168.82,"end":181.923,"text":"對不對但是呢我國現在對於政務官完全沒有專法嘛之前有幾個早案提出來但是目前都沒有立法成功那我想請問一下現在考試院這邊有什麼想法就政務官的部分"},{"start":184.439,"end":206.228,"text":"我跟你們報告 政務官這個體系我知道在社會上有不同的討論不過考試院根據憲法執掌是負責公務人員那畢竟政務人員並不是依法考試及格任用的人所以如果有這方面的一個議題 需要專責立法這應該會是屬於行政院的推測沒有啊 你考試院在101年9月28號曾經有送過一個政務人員卡"},{"start":210.009,"end":236.011,"text":"草案啊當初曾經有送過這不是說跟你們無關啊不過行政院那邊後來有一些意見就是說政務人員應該是由行政院這邊因為畢竟所有的政務人員大部分都在行政院裡面負責而且包括地方政府相關議題所以我的意思是回到憲法本身的那個那個考試院執掌就是公務人員這個概念的話我想這是兩院要繼續去做討論的部分到底如果真的有必要要往這邊立法的話是由哪一個"},{"start":236.972,"end":251.436,"text":"院來負責不是 這當然有這個必要性嘛因為我剛剛講了中立法的第二條它的立法理由已經說得很清楚了政務官不是不用福音行政中立他是說他要另以專法來論斷來那個立法"},{"start":254.477,"end":283.858,"text":"他是說另外要有專法而不是說他沒有行政中立的義務結果呢現在大家的解釋變成說這個行政中立只有事務官常樂文官要政務官沒有現在變成這樣子啊那以我所了解的民進黨的做法我們常常講法律是道德的最後一道防線但是現在民進黨把法律跟道德拉成一樣然後他的作為甚至還低於道德低於法律違法只要不被抓到民進黨都覺得OK啊"},{"start":284.278,"end":312.537,"text":"那在這個角度來說因為我最近看到行政院變成是全國最大競選總部行政院變成全國最大的大二霸的總部那這樣就不對了嘛這樣子政務官他也是領國家的錢不要講別的啦你今天你搭車出去坐公務車出去你的水戶出去你的助理出去這些都是國家的經費所養的人嘛國家經費所支付的那你說政務官不是一般的公務員所以"},{"start":313.197,"end":323.201,"text":"所以也不歸你們管也不歸什麼然後你們在101年也曾經提過法案希望就政務官的部分規範就現在不能說現在反而又不管你們的事了嗎應該是說"},{"start":326.538,"end":343.13,"text":"是不是由考試院來提出政務委員法這件事情一直是考試院跟行政院之間的爭論那我回到行政中立的部分就是說政務官也不是如果委員所說並不是完全沒有行政中立的相當規範就是剛剛部長也有講如果你動用機關資源的這個部分其實一樣不可以"},{"start":343.73,"end":364.131,"text":"那個不分事務官政務官其實都不可以做這件事但是就參與某些政治活動而言政務官跟事務官的規範就會不一樣這個歷來一直中央地方的政務官慢慢也形成了一定的這個這個部分我了解我也可以接受就是政務官跟常任文官他們在行政中立上面的"},{"start":364.992,"end":392.365,"text":"程度有所區別 這個我都可以接受也不會很無理的要求說絕對兩個要拉到一樣但是我要一直在講最近這段時間發生的事情譬如說行政院假借政策宣傳這個名目就全台灣到處搞了在那邊喊大罷免還有立法委員在上面唱歌要罷免怎麼樣然後他所用的是行政院所謂的下鄉的政策宣傳"},{"start":393.385,"end":420.844,"text":"那這個東西叫我怎麼相信它是一個行政中立的概念好 那之前那個草屯的政長補選嘛那在那個補選的會場的時候我們的那個政次 那個誰 那個陳時中還有我們現在衛福部的次長林靜儀不也去那邊大呼小叫嗎那這兩個人 他是政務官沒有錯但是呢 他卻在現場 在那邊助選然後在那邊講一些有的沒的 甚至在講罷免的事情"},{"start":421.664,"end":441.618,"text":"但是我就想回到我剛剛說的這些人去那邊他也是掛他的官銜去他並不是用他個人的名義去再來他去的時候就我剛剛講的他要不要使用他的公務車他要不要使用他的隨扈那有一些像部會首長級的出門也是會帶隨扈那這些也不就是公"},{"start":442.642,"end":463.799,"text":"公共的費用嗎所以我在這邊講啦我剛剛回到剛剛我說的我不是說政務官他對於新任總理的要求強度要跟常任文官一樣但是是不是考試院這邊你能夠去思考一個點既然你們101年就已經提過政務人員法草案那"},{"start":464.6,"end":483.08,"text":"可不可以趕快提出來就政務官的部分有關行政中立的部分要趕快法治化要加以規範而不是像現在被很多人剛好抓到你這個點反正法無明文嘛法無明文我就幹我的啊就我剛剛講的在民進黨執政之下"},{"start":484.824,"end":500.2,"text":"他的法律跟他的道德觀是拉到跟法律一樣我們講法律是道德的最後一道防線結果他現在拉到一樣甚至他的作為比法律還不如只要違法沒被抓一切都好那這個當然兩位是"},{"start":501.241,"end":521.152,"text":"兩位是政務官嘛那我當然我講這個你們也不方便回答什麼這我都可以理解我自己也做過政務官我自己也做過所以我很能夠清楚政務官跟常任無我做過常任無官我也做過政務官所以我了解這兩個的區別在哪裡但是是不是考試院這邊你們要趕快提出專法出來"},{"start":522.284,"end":545.086,"text":"要讓我國的政務官去有所規範因為這些政務官都是常任文官的長官我們都知道嘛在我國的體制裡面政務官通常都是常任文官的長官那這些常任文官他們在職場上面他看到他的長官就去那裡站台就去那裡喊大罷免就去那裡喊那些"},{"start":546.287,"end":557.519,"text":"為特定的候選人 特定政黨的候選人在那邊助選然後在那邊講其他人非同政黨的人的壞話那請問一下底下的這些常任文官他們的想法是什麼"},{"start":558.98,"end":578.47,"text":"以人性的角度去出發很多常任務官他會認為說要巴結他的長官他可能求升監或求工作更順利他可能會去巴結他的長官這是全世界各國都有的人性的問題這樣子如果我們放任這些政務官毫無節制的"},{"start":580.022,"end":608.132,"text":"違反行政中立的話 那這不對啊更何況我剛剛提到了中立法的第二條立法理由就講不是不用政務官不是不用去遵守行政中立而是要另以專法來設置因為事務官跟常任文官跟政務官就是不一樣嘛但是你們現在卻這個法就完全沒有提出來你們可不可以趕快像101年那樣趕快把草案提出來"},{"start":609.4,"end":616.837,"text":"因為每一屆考試院對這個都有一些各自的想法委員的意見我會把它帶回去院裡面來做演繹"},{"start":617.951,"end":636.597,"text":"那你們需要多久的時間這個沒有辦法保證因為這一題因為一方面第一個它涉及到職權的爭論這個歷來都沒有解決第二個就是所謂政務人員法裡面的規範其實除了剛剛委員講到類似行為規範以外它還有很多很多的面向對 但是民主黨"},{"start":640.359,"end":668.852,"text":"我知道你在講什麼但是你們在101年十幾年前就曾經提過草案出來我現在並不是麻煩你們從無到有而是你們原本十幾年前就有那個法案出來了那這十幾年我國的文官制度並沒有大型的變革當年你就提了出草案但現在你跟我說因為關係到很多所以沒有辦法提這個變成說我沒有辦法接受這樣的結論啦是 民主黨這會期你們有沒有打算要提"},{"start":669.5,"end":684.585,"text":"目前這個沒有在我們的立法計畫裡面,我們有其他的優先順序我們現在就是保障法跟考級法、安慰班法,這是我們這個會計的重點可是我覺得這樣子等於是推卸任務這個議題的確在院裡一直都是就像你們剛說的,到底行政院該提還是你們該提,你說不知道嘛"},{"start":692.982,"end":713.875,"text":"其實我跟你講 上個會期立法院就曾經遇過幾個法案 行政院卡在那裡卡很久到最後立法院提自己的版本 很多立委提自己的版本然後要表決的時候 行政院才趕快塞法案進來難道搞到最後又要讓立法院逼著行政機關來做事情嗎難道一定要走到這一步嗎"},{"start":715.199,"end":734.447,"text":"我跟你講去年很多法案都是這樣嘛都是立法院逼著行政機關把法案送過來不然行政院一卡卡很多年吹哨者保護法也是啊要不是我們拿我們的版本出來一直逼著他他完全不動嘛那我在這邊跟兩位說明一下我真的覺得"},{"start":735.387,"end":757.285,"text":"不管是政務官或是事務官領的都是國家的薪水政務官又是大部分事務官的長官結果階級較低的事務官他有嚴格的行政中立結果位階較高的政務官就完全不受任何的限制這邏輯是錯誤的"},{"start":759.583,"end":784.933,"text":"所以我剛剛有提到了 既然我們的公務員的行政中立法裡面他第二條已經說得很清楚了他並不是政務官不用保持行政中立 而是需要另立專法就我們現在的政務官卻以沒有專法當作藉口所以他不需要行政中立 他上台胡說八道亂扯一通亂講一通 然後他也是運用國家的資源讓他去那個現場 去那邊胡說八道"},{"start":786.636,"end":811.372,"text":"當然啦他沒有拿他部會的預算出來來開這個他有沒有用公務資源這個要看個案的現況到底是什麼所以我就跟你說不是啦我跟你講你查到最後一堆都不是這樣啦你講一個隨戶會不會跟著他走這也是一個問題我知道隨戶這個狀況就是說隨戶是不管他在就是他對他的安全有責任的話那他這個所以我提出來這個就是說"},{"start":812.913,"end":827.964,"text":"我提出來這個就是說我剛剛講的政務官跟常任農官事務官之間他們對行政中立的要求程度可以不一樣我100%接受也贊成但是政務官的行政中立不能完全沒有任何規範而讓現在"},{"start":830.509,"end":858.749,"text":"的很多政務官他現在上台胡說八道亂講一通好像都沒事情那這樣子的話他底下的事務官們會怎麼去思考去看這個問題所以這個部分我想說要麻煩你們注意一下那另外我想請你們兩個月內能夠提一個資料給我因為我剛本來要提但時間上面來不及提就是我希望說全國公務員的待遇跟全國薪資那個水平的差異"},{"start":860.73,"end":885.996,"text":"能夠兩個月內給我一份報告我想了解一下之間的差異如果要回到實際上的薪資這個真的是要人事總書的資料才有我們並沒有這個資料我們的待遇在法治上是行政院主管那不然這樣好了這個部分因為我們本來是希望說考試院這邊提不然我再一個"},{"start":887.858,"end":902.397,"text":"好好沒問題好那這部分我再去跟他們提那這個部分你們有去注意到嗎因為我後來看了一下那個初等考試初等考試如果一年收14個月年收入不到50萬"},{"start":904.518,"end":925.609,"text":"本考試是沒有啦不過我們應該這樣講我們現在初等考試的人非常非常少我跟委員報告這個我現在可以因為我當過人事長我大概有知道這些資料應該這樣講我們的平均的年所得初任的高考三等的年所得現在大概應該有到70萬左右啦"},{"start":928.397,"end":954.024,"text":"因為現在最近的資料應該是這樣那個別的領域確實跟民間薪資比較要個別去譬如說檢察官怎麼跟律師比譬如說土木工程跟外面比這個是更細的部分如果用全國平均數那是一個比較的方式我想我這樣跟委員報告就是至少薪資的部分你們也有在注意嗎那詳細的是不是沒關係我跟人總他們要但是你們自己也要注意到薪資的這個部分以及"},{"start":954.844,"end":975.665,"text":"甚至資訊人員的那個差距跟外面的差距很大我國政府機關裡面的資訊人員跟外面民間的資訊人員的那個數據差距 資訊差距太大你這樣找不到人啦 完全找不到總署也一直在想 已經做了一些調整的措施但是還是有一些差距 我的要解釋這樣子好 好 好 時間關係 那這樣子就謝謝你們"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":898,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（10時45分）好，麻煩秘書長。"],["主席：請秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早安。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想請問一下考試院一個很簡單的問題，我們提到公務員中立規定的時候，我們很清楚目前的作為是常任文官跟政務官在行政中立上面有一個區別，對不對？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我現在想請教一下考試院，公務員下班或者是假日，可不可以去參加候選人的造勢大會，或是為特定候選人站臺，然後喊「當選」，可以這樣嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我請部長來說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，請部長。"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，中立法裡面還是要有規範，好像是第九條有規範，不管上、下班時間，公務人員不可以做的行為。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。部長，這個是指常任文官，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對、對！沒錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：今天我覺得常任文官的部分是這樣規定沒有錯，但是就像剛剛秘書長也有提到的，確實依照目前的中立法，好像是排除掉政務官的適用，但是我想請問一下，就法律的精神，政務官到底有沒有行政中立的義務？"],["施部長能傑：就法律的精神，政務官不可以動用公家資源去從事政黨的活動或者政治性的活動，我想作為一個政務官應該有自己的倫理規範。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有，我的意思是依照法律的精神，政務官到底有沒有行政中立的義務？"],["施部長能傑：要看委員界定行政中立的內涵是什麼，因為根據我們的法律，老實說，行政中立是一個比較廣泛的界定，我們沒有真正界定行政中立，行政中立法裡面絕大部分是講參與政治活動。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係啦！這樣好了，我來直接跟你們說，其實公務員的行政中立法並不是政務官沒有行政中立的義務，而是它要求另立專法。我查到公務人員行政中立法第二條的立法理由其實說得很清楚，主要是提到因為政務官屬於政治任命或是民選所產生，他跟常任文官有別，所以這個部分宜另立專法來規範，對不對？我國現在對於政務官完全沒有專法，之前有幾個草案提出來，但是目前都沒有立法成功。我想請問一下，就政務官的部分，現在考試院這邊有什麼想法？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，對政務官這個體系，我知道在社會上有不同的討論，不過考試院根據憲法職掌是負責公務人員，畢竟政務人員並不是依法考試及格任用的人，如果有這方面的議題，需要專責立法，這應該會是屬於行政院的權責。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有啊！考試院在101年9月28號曾經有送過一個政務人員法草案啊！"],["施部長能傑：沒錯！當初曾經有送過……"],["吳委員宗憲：這不是跟你們無關啊！"],["施部長能傑：不過行政院後來有一些意見，即政務人員應該是由行政院這邊，畢竟所有的政務人員大部分都在行政院裡面負責，而且包括地方政府相關議題，所以我的意思是回到憲法本身的考試院職掌，公務人員這個概念的話，我想這是兩院要繼續討論的部分，如果真的有必要往這邊立法，是由哪一個院來負責。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，當然有這個必要性。我剛才講中立法第二條的立法理由已經說得很清楚了，政務官不是不用服膺行政中立，它是說另以專法來論斷、立法，它是說另外要有專法，而不是他沒有行政中立的義務，結果現在大家的解釋變成行政中立只有事務官、常任文官要，政務官沒有，現在變成這樣子啊！以我所瞭解民進黨的作法，我們常常講法律是道德的最後一道防線，但現在民進黨把法律跟道德拉成一樣，他的作為甚至還低於道德、低於法律，違法只要不被抓到，民進黨都覺得OK。站在這個角度來說……因為我最近看到行政院變成全國最大的競選總部，行政院變成全國最大的大惡霸總部，這樣就不對了嘛！政務官也是領國家的錢，不要講別的，今天你搭車出去、坐公務車出去，你的隨扈出去、你的助理出去，這些也都是國家的經費所養的人，是國家經費所支付的，那你說政務官不是一般的公務員，所以也不歸你們管，然後你們在101年也曾經提過法案，希望就政務官的部分規範，結果反而又不關你們的事了嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：應該說是不是由考試院來提出政務人員法這件事情，一直是考試院跟行政院之間的爭論。回到行政中立的部分，政務官也不是如委員所說，並不是完全沒有行政中立的相關規範。剛剛部長也有講，動用機關資源的這個部分其實一樣不可以，這個不分事務官、政務官，其實都不可以做這件事。但是就參與某些政治活動而言，政務官跟事務官的規範就會不一樣，歷來中央、地方的政務官慢慢也形成了一定的界線。"],["吳委員宗憲：這個部分我了解，我也可以接受，就是政務官跟常任文官，他們在行政中立上面的程度有所區別，這個都可以接受，也不會很無理地要求兩個絕對要拉到一樣。但是我一直在講，最近這一段時間發生的事情，譬如說，行政院假借政策宣傳這個名目就全臺灣到處搞了，在那邊喊大罷免，還有立法委員在上面唱歌要罷免怎麼樣，然後他所用的是行政院所謂的下鄉政策宣傳，這個東西叫我怎麼相信他是行政中立的概念？之前草屯鎮長補選，在那個補選的會場，政次陳時中還有現在衛福部的次長林靜儀不也去那邊大呼小叫嗎？這兩個人是政務官沒有錯，但是他卻在現場助選，然後在那邊講一些有的沒的，甚至在講罷免的事情。回到我剛剛說的，這些人去那邊，他也是掛他的官銜去，他並不是用他個人的名義去；再來，他去的時候，就我剛剛講的，他要不要使用他的公務車？他要不要使用他的隨扈？有一些像部會首長級的出門也是會帶隨扈，這些不就是公共的費用嗎？回到我剛剛講的，我不是說政務官對於行政中立的要求強度要跟常任文官一樣，但是考試院是不是能夠去思考一個點，既然你們101年就已經提過政務人員法草案，那可不可以趕快提出來，就政務官行政中立的部分趕快法制化？要加以規範，而不是像現在被很多人剛好抓到你這個點，反正法無明文嘛，法無明文我就幹我的啊！就我剛剛講的，在民進黨執政之下，他的道德觀拉到跟法律一樣，我們講法律是道德的最後一道防線，結果他現在拉到一樣，甚至他的作為比法律還不如，只要違法沒被抓，一切都好。","當然兩位是政務官嘛！當然我講這個，你們也不方便回答什麼，這我都可以理解，我自己也做過政務官，所以我很清楚政務官跟常任……我做過常任文官，我也做過政務官，所以我了解這兩個的區別在哪裡。考試院是不是要趕快提出專法出來，讓我國的政務官有所規範？因為這些政務官都是常任文官的長官，我們都知道嘛！在我國的體系裡面，政務官通常都是常任文官的長官，這些常任文官在職場上面，看到他的長官去那裡站台、去那裡喊大罷免、去那裡為特定的候選人、特定政黨的候選人助選，然後在那邊講其他人、非同政黨的人的壞話，請問一下，底下的這些常任文官，他們的想法是什麼？以人性的角度去出發，很多常任文官，他會認為要巴結他的長官嘛！他可能求升遷或求工作更順利，他可能會去巴結他的長官，這是全世界各國都有的人性問題嘛！如果我們放任這些政務官這樣子毫無節制地違反行政中立的話，這不對啊！更何況我剛剛提到中立法第二條的立法理由就講，政務官不是不用去遵守行政中立，而是要另以專法來設置，因為事務官跟常任文官跟政務官就是不一樣嘛！但是你們現在這個法就完全沒有提出來，你們可不可以像101年那樣趕快把草案提出來？"],["劉秘書長建忻：因為每一屆考試院大概對這個都有一些各自的想法，委員的意見我會把它帶回去院裡面研議。"],["吳委員宗憲：那你們需要多久的時間？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個沒有辦法保證，因為第一個、它涉及到職權的爭論，這個歷來都沒有解決；第二個就是所謂政務人員法裡面的規範，其實除了剛剛委員講到的類似行為規範以外，它還有很多很多的面向，所以比較複雜。"],["吳委員宗憲：秘書長，我知道你在講什麼，但是你們在101年──十幾年前就曾經提過草案出來，我現在並不是麻煩你們從無到有，而是你們原本十幾年前就有那個法案出來了，這十幾年我國的文官制度並沒有大型的變革，當年你就提得出草案，但現在你跟我說因為關係到很多所以沒有辦法提。我沒有辦法接受這樣的結論，秘書長，這個會期你們有沒有打算要提？"],["劉秘書長建忻：目前這個沒有在我們的立法計畫裡面，我們有其他的優先順序，現在就是保障法跟考績法、安衛辦法，這是我們這個會期的重點。"],["吳委員宗憲：可是我覺得這樣子等於是推責任。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員這個意見我會帶回去研議，這個議題的確在院裡面一直都是……"],["吳委員宗憲：就像你們剛剛說的，到底行政院該提還是你們該提，你說不知道嘛！其實我跟你講，上個會期立法院就曾經遇過幾個法案，行政院卡在那裡卡很久，到最後立法院提自己的版本，很多立委提自己的版本，然後要表決的時候行政院才趕快塞法案進來，難道搞到最後又要讓立法院逼著行政機關來做事情嗎？難道一定要走到這一步嗎？我跟你講，去年很多法案都是這樣，都是立法院逼著行政機關把法案送過來，不然行政院一卡卡很多年，吹哨者保護法也是，要不是我們拿我們的版本出來，一直逼著它，它完全不動嘛！我跟兩位說明一下，我真的覺得不管是政務官或是事務官，領的都是國家的薪水，政務官又是大部分事務官的長官，結果階級較低的事務官，他有嚴格的行政中立，位階較高的政務官卻完全不受任何的限制，這邏輯是錯誤的。我剛剛有提到了，公務員行政中立法第二條已經說得很清楚了，並不是政務官不用保持行政中立，而是需要另立專法，結果我們現在的政務官卻以沒有專法當作藉口，所以他不需要行政中立，他上台胡說八道、亂扯一通、亂講一通，然後他也是運用國家的資源讓他去現場胡說八道，當然他沒有拿他部會的預算出來開這個……"],["劉秘書長建忻：他有沒有用公務資源，這個要看個案的現況到底是什麼……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，所以我就跟你說，不是啦！我跟你講你查到最後一堆都不是這樣啦，你講一個，隨扈會不會跟著他走，這也是一個問題。"],["劉秘書長建忻：我知道隨扈這個狀況，隨扈是不管他在……就是他對他的安全有責任的話，這個其實都算是公務。"],["吳委員宗憲：我提出這個，就是我剛剛講的政務官跟常任文官、事務官之間，他們對於行政中立的要求程度可以不一樣，我100%接受也贊成，但是政務官的行政中立不能完全沒有任何規範，而讓現在的很多政務官上台胡說八道、亂講一通好像都沒事情。這樣子的話，他底下的事務官們會怎麼去思考、去看這個問題？所以這個部分，我想要麻煩你們注意一下。","另外我想請你們兩個月內提一個資料給我，我剛剛本來要提，但時間上面來不及提，我希望全國公務員的待遇跟全國薪資水平的差異，能夠兩個月內給我一份報告，我想了解一下之間的差異。"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，如果要回到實際上的薪資，這個真的是要人事總處的資料才有，我們並沒有這個資料。"],["吳委員宗憲：你們沒有這個資料？"],["施部長能傑：對，我們的待遇在法制上是行政院主管。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，不然這樣好了，這個部分我們本來是希望考試院這邊提，不然我再去跟……好，沒問題，這個部分我再去跟他們提，那這個部分你們有注意到嗎？因為我後來看了一下初等考試，初等考試如果年薪14個月，年收入不到50萬，其實還滿低的。"],["施部長能傑：初等考試是沒有啦，不過應該這樣講，我們現在初等考試的人非常非常少。我跟委員報告，因為我當過人事長，我大概知道這些資料，應該這樣講，我們的平均年所得，初任的高考三等年所得現在大概應該有到70萬左右，最近的資料應該是這樣，個別的領域跟民間薪資比較就個別去比，比方說檢察官怎麼跟律師比，比方說土木工程怎麼跟外面比，這個是更細的部分，如果用全國的平均數，那是一個比較的方式，我想我就這樣跟委員報告。"],["吳委員宗憲：至少薪資的部分你們也有在注意嘛，沒關係，詳細的數字我跟人總他們要。"],["施部長能傑：資料人事總處才有。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是你們自己也要注意到薪資這個部分。"],["施部長能傑：有、有。"],["吳委員宗憲：甚至資訊人員的差距，跟外面的差距很大。"],["施部長能傑：沒錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：我國政府機關裡面的資訊人員跟外面民間資訊人員的薪資差距太大，你這樣找不到人啦，完全找不到！"],["施部長能傑：所以總處也一直在想，已經做了一些調整的措施，但還是有一些差距，我了解的是這樣子。"],["吳委員宗憲：好、好，因為時間的關係，那就謝謝你們。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-5","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","林倩綺","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業\n務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00004"}}}