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\"了\", \"start\": 1180.892, \"end\": 1180.912, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,331 --> 00:00:25,845\n8加2好這個是不是請這個我還想看在叫什麼國發會還有勞動部是吧好吧暫時這樣子\n\n2\n00:00:28,457 --> 00:00:54,848\n謝謝署長國發會前陣子派一位副主委來要請假連副主委都還要請假有此可知都不重視啊那我們為什麼今天要講這個少子女化這個議題因為台灣的這個老化的速度太快超高齡社會20%以上的65歲以上的人口\n\n3\n00:00:55,563 --> 00:01:24,409\n那老化太快的這個原因啊不是因為平均壽命大幅提高許多因為超高齡社會啊一種是你突然間大家都壽命延長許多增加很多要不然就是總生育率下降的太快而我們就是總生育率下降的太快而不是平均壽命提高很多這個是很重要的因為全世界\n\n4\n00:01:25,649 --> 00:01:42,416\n這個超高齡社會的這個樣態很多而我們跟日本大概就是那種總生育率下降得太快的這一種所以成為全世界的先行者我們會找不到有可能會找不到說到底要怎麼因應的策略這樣子\n\n5\n00:01:43,837 --> 00:02:06,317\n那同時面臨小子女化和高齡衝擊所以政府提出很多這個因應的對策啦那現在呢要研議這個將育嬰留子停薪6加1個月那你們是預估6個月有領的大概21000人所以再增加1個月增加6億元嘛對不對\n\n6\n00:02:07,839 --> 00:02:29,827\n對這個是對沒有錯那我問你有資格可以請領育嬰流艇的有多少人我們去年的數字是九萬三千多人九萬那不是三歲以下嗎對就去年實際上有來申請的我跟你講三歲以下平均大概也有四五十萬人吧四五十萬的\n\n7\n00:02:31,195 --> 00:03:00,011\n家庭大概有三歲以下的小孩所以夫妻兩個人的話大概90萬人有資格90萬人有資格而你說去年來請領過的人次是9萬左右那也才十分之一那你現在講說因為來請領的有人只領一個月有人領三個月有人領四個月領滿六個月的只有兩萬一千人所以你去推估說有領滿的我再多給他一個月\n\n8\n00:03:01,191 --> 00:03:27,425\n這個是照顧了兩萬一千人左右可是全部總需求理論上都有需求而且都去申請的話應該是九十萬人啊所以去年我們根據勞保的那個生育給付實際上有發生育給付的是八萬一千八百多人那如果父母都來領的話那三歲啊所以有三個啊八萬多去年生了十三萬多的小孩啊\n\n9\n00:03:28,185 --> 00:03:52,152\n生育給付有來請領是8萬1我有的人不請領不代表他沒需求要暈流停他不請領生育給付他有可能他又不是受雇者或是其他的但是他生了小孩過去三歲以下的總嬰兒數總小孩數大概四五十萬不要在這邊講到那裡去都浪費我的時間\n\n10\n00:03:53,132 --> 00:03:56,376\n四、五十萬的人,加點有備,有補的時間加起來就是九十萬人啦有九十萬人有資格去請啦但是呢,算是你請完,還要是兩萬一千人啦所以呢,在這裡我要講的是,你們因為流停多領一個月這個策略,這個政策,你沒有擴大\n\n11\n00:04:13,888 --> 00:04:20,535\n照顧更多需求的人你只是讓便宜形式讓有資料請萬六個月那本來就是條件比較好讓他再給你一個月金價重要的是其他有90萬人他為什麼沒有不敢請滿不敢請領請滿然後也不敢請價不敢請滿也不敢來請錢也不敢請全請\n\n12\n00:04:34,659 --> 00:04:53,308\n這才是重要的嘛那就是問題啊那我們在講說延長育嬰留庭這個有效有可以提升生育的意願嗎或者是多發放一個月的津貼有辦法提升生育的意願嗎不要忘了死亡人數20萬啦2024年生育率13萬-負的7萬人耶\n\n13\n00:05:01,192 --> 00:05:24,794\n再繼續付下去台灣會很嚴重所以這持續五年的副成長而且2024年是出生人數最低的那一年而你們國科會自己有做一個研究少殖民化問題和對策實證調查分析報告受訪的人都說其實第一經濟考量是影響生育決策最重要的因素\n\n14\n00:05:25,715 --> 00:05:34,125\n然後呢多數表示如果生育補助育兒津貼對生育的意願影響是有限的\n\n15\n00:05:35,367 --> 00:05:53,936\n其實是經濟啦大家可想而知是經濟啦為什麼經濟剛剛那個次長給我們上了一堂課啊所以啊大家都需要工作啊女性也需要工作啊我也不想依賴先生事實上先生也不見得能夠依賴大家一個家庭都需要雙薪收入所以絕對不能離職不能少一份工作\n\n16\n00:05:58,198 --> 00:06:17,388\n所以在這種狀況裡面如果在這種狀況你的想像要怎麼樣留住女性勞動力因為她不能離職然後呢又要她生小孩讓她在家庭跟工作之間不能夠二擇一同時都要兼顧這個就是勞動部過去所想像的本來是說鼓勵大家留職停薪育兒暫時離開職場可是大家都知道暫時離開職場要重返\n\n17\n00:06:25,671 --> 00:06:48,996\n門檻很高啦障礙很多啦所以現在才一直在轉換變成說能不能一邊育兒一邊工作不要中斷工作也不要中斷年資然後在工作和育兒之間得到平衡所以我們一直在講的是說要普及公共化托育設施要放寬家庭照顧假\n\n18\n00:06:50,296 --> 00:06:59,370\n要把育嬰變成彈性親職架因為大家都知道不然要死的時候錢是最重要的啦\n\n19\n00:07:00,509 --> 00:07:22,021\n第二就是不是孩子生出來就自己大喊要陪伴大家都知道要陪伴所以工作時數能不能陪伴也是很重要然後呢遇到他學校有幼兒園大家都知道從保母那裡3歲送到幼兒園就開始每天感冒3歲到6歲每天都感冒每天都要去哭\n\n20\n00:07:25,083 --> 00:07:37,662\n所以這個要有價要有價怎麼來不可能你們雇主跟勞工之間有這麼多價你們願意給所以我們一直在講把育嬰價變成彈性輕職價\n\n21\n00:07:40,706 --> 00:08:00,560\n所以生育案養育補貼很重要沒有錯但是要營造一個比這兩個東西還更友善的條件人家才願意生養就是要友善的生兒育女的環境你現在提供的現金補貼當然是看得到你重視它可是你們都挑最便宜形式的給錢就沒了\n\n22\n00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:15,416\n而你們不願意多做一點其他各種優惠和環境配套要讓他進來所以在這裡呢國科會自己有委託研究案我剛剛講少子女化的問題案對策實證調查報告分析顯示\n\n23\n00:08:16,457 --> 00:08:41,982\n育嬰價的改革雖然有顯著增加多生育胎的機率但是效果集中在所得較低的人身上對高所得的人來講毫無影響那其中一個原因就是因為你們投保薪資45800天花板在那裡所以投保薪資上限還是很低沒有幼嬰\n\n24\n00:08:43,462 --> 00:09:08,108\n那主計總處2020有統計照顧未滿12歲的子女而離職的女性的離職風險是男性的2.7倍那從育嬰留庭和津貼制度的設計還是沒有辦法解決從這個女性又要兼顧家庭又要這個兼顧工作的這個問題\n\n25\n00:09:10,185 --> 00:09:27,451\n然後女性在這種狀況如果要選擇的話有時候就會讓她女性工作的技能和年資沒有辦法有效累積所以讓女性的勞動者她會去堅持還有做那種part-time以外就變成低薪化堅持化和低薪化\n\n26\n00:09:28,251 --> 00:09:45,485\n如果不離職不能離開場他要去做的工作可能要照顧家庭要照顧要工作他要做兼職然後有可能還會低薪化所以監察院國家人權委員會在家庭照顧責任和婚姻變故對婦女就業和經濟安全的影響當中有提到\n\n27\n00:09:46,767 --> 00:09:56,177\n不少女性為了照顧家庭不得不選擇網拍、外送等時薪制兼職的工作但是缺少底薪的保障收入不穩定導致年老時處於高貧窮的風險\n\n28\n00:10:03,906 --> 00:10:22,653\n所以在這種狀況裡面我們的女性勞參率跌下來了25到29歲本來是九成你剛剛講了你看她40到44歲來到78.6%的參與率可是同樣的年齡層我講過一遍一遍又一遍在瑞典在德國\n\n29\n00:10:24,894 --> 00:10:53,155\n40到44歲的女性勞動力的參與率比25到29歲還要更高瑞典是高出7.6%德國是高了4%人家是怎麼做那我如果要這樣講的話其實我有一個建議啦你們的這種身家多一個月的津貼然後說多五天的這個什麼家庭詐是不是用那個小時來計算不如這樣子講我也獻策\n\n30\n00:10:54,196 --> 00:11:09,711\n如果是經濟安全考量第一個你們去大量蓋親子住宅這種親子社會住宅因為經濟壓力最大就來自於買房和租房大量的親子住宅打五折不是八折的社會住宅這個不是勞動部這個也不是某一個單位社福部門能解決這是請全國國家的力量要來做的\n\n31\n00:11:20,077 --> 00:11:43,582\n打五折的親子社會住宅第二一站式服務在裡面公共托育完整所以讓大家在這裡面經濟的壓力降低了公共托育承擔起了這個爸爸媽媽所最擔心的公共托育公共幼兒園全部都進來了\n\n32\n00:11:44,822 --> 00:11:49,404\n還要加上彈性輕職假這樣子讓女性在家庭和職場在經濟和養小孩之間我們不做選擇幼稚才要做選擇政策照顧不周才需要做選擇國家不負責任國家不負責任政府不負責任才要做選擇我們女性叫我們女性生小孩跟工作\n\n33\n00:12:12,651 --> 00:12:29,236\n我不做選擇我兩者通通要那你給我們一戰式的服務親子打五折的親子社會住宅給我們彈性親子假這樣你看這樣有意願可以有想要生育嗎朝初都打五折政府企業在大應該有啦應該有喔你們都不這樣說你們都不這樣說要給內政部來參選\n\n34\n00:12:38,103 --> 00:12:44,188\n不是這樣而已你來看我們的國發會主委說什麼啦少子女化的原因是什麼少子女化的原因在這裡啦國發會講的國發會主委講的啦最大的問題是沒有找到理想對象這個新聞我也是最近才知道欸真的很訝異啊你覺得你可以接受\n\n35\n00:13:04,997 --> 00:13:13,885\n在座的大家包括次長各單位的業務單位台灣小子女化的主要原因是因為沒有找到理想的對象嗎\n\n36\n00:13:16,974 --> 00:13:36,848\n所以我的理解新加坡政府是最近這裡每一年都編預算去找各個民間團體去辦所謂的那個未婚男女的聯誼這個我們支持我們也大量的鼓勵政府可以這麼做可是我們如果討論少子女化的原因你會歸則於最大原因是這個嗎有這麼幼稚嗎好啦再下一個\n\n37\n00:13:43,110 --> 00:13:59,582\n國科委委託了這個找人家來研究啦少子女化問題案對策實證調查報告花了多少錢啊兩個案子都委託台大經濟系去做啦兩個案子都兩千兩百萬加起來四千多萬\n\n38\n00:14:01,107 --> 00:14:19,680\n然後提了一個少子女化問題案對策實證調查分析案報告他說台灣平均年工時2020高於OECD的1742顯示已婚全職者平均一天工作已婚的喔全職的喔平均一天要工作九個小時通勤一個小時十個小時的\n\n39\n00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:36,095\n已婚的女性晚上加班夜間工作平均1.1個小時男性晚上加班已婚男性1.85個小時所以25到39歲已婚的人夜間工時平均要1.6個小時他怎麼陪伴小孩\n\n40\n00:14:38,797 --> 00:14:52,815\n工作壓力長工時育嬰假沒有彈性使用上還有性別的差異所以讓女性在婚育過程當中承受較大的職癌中斷的風險而男性因為工作壓力和夜間工時長家庭互動時間不足\n\n41\n00:14:54,637 --> 00:15:17,785\n所以青年會傾向於申請更短期的育嬰假所以我們需要的是這個育嬰假要讓他彈性化而生育後的母親他的勞動參與率跟工資皆明顯下降而且持續時間很長所以這個對男性影響不大對女性影響很大所以要兼顧家庭所以我有禁慾生育率跟女性就業率的正相關\n\n42\n00:15:19,145 --> 00:15:42,596\n你生育率要提高但是女性的就業率也要提高兩個都要正相關而這樣的有效的政策才能夠讓家長女性勞動率蓄留職場才可以避免制度誤導女性離職去育兒所以我們在講這個事你要看下一頁勞動部\n\n43\n00:15:44,713 --> 00:16:12,780\n不是國發會國發會提出的政策建議是什麼針對未婚男性男女啦要建置身份認證的交友平台這個我有點懷疑啊如果年輕應該問年輕男女民間那麼多你去參加然後政府也建置這個我們都不反對而且我們認為也可以做而且應該要做但是會是國家重大的政策嗎\n\n44\n00:16:15,106 --> 00:16:31,098\n針對未婚青年重大的政策是做這樣子嗎然後增加家庭和育兒支持他講到投保薪資上限要拿掉拿更多那這樣子你們的\n\n45\n00:16:32,419 --> 00:16:57,589\n給父要更多喔所以他認為你們的給父是不夠的然後還有你看怎麼樣增加年輕人願意生小孩的意願放寬家事幫傭移工幫助育兒工作如果要放寬家事移工放寬育兒工作那我們還需要在這裡討論公托還需要在這裡討論這個津貼嗎\n\n46\n00:17:01,410 --> 00:17:17,997\n這個有沒有階級化的需求難怪從國發會國科會到勞動部到政府都一講說我要放寬家事幫傭大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔\n\n47\n00:17:32,174 --> 00:17:35,339\n說這些都太橫了啦所以我在講意思是他們下一頁是什麼政策目標下一頁有嗎沒有了好\n\n48\n00:17:42,375 --> 00:18:04,839\n所以在這裡家事幫庸可以解決男女分工的問題家事幫庸可以解決所有年輕父母不生的問題然後讓他們願意生但願如此啊說到這都太狠了開4000萬元研究出來政策給政府的政策是這樣放寬家事幫庸然後去做一個交友平台\n\n49\n00:18:09,929 --> 00:18:31,435\n台大走的然後國發會奉為歸納勞動部放寬家事帮傭奉為歸納這樣子可以解決嗎我要說都不用了我這個不去做政策研究我告訴你我剛才說了再說一次打五折的親子社會住宅以戰士的服務社區裡面全面的從0到6歲\n\n50\n00:18:34,076 --> 00:18:45,119\n托兒托育全面一站式服務然後我剛剛講的育嬰留庭不給雇主麻煩也不給政府麻煩把它變成放寬到8歲然後以天甚至以小時為單位可以去請領的彈性親職假這才是正本清源啦別說那麼多啦\n\n51\n00:18:59,581 --> 00:19:16,931\n經濟問題要改觀住宿的問題要可進性高要可負擔性打五折的社會住宅啦就是這樣子這樣可以了嗎我們那個關於那個迂流艇還有家庭照顧架更彈性化的方向我們現在全部都在研議中\n\n52\n00:19:18,490 --> 00:19:40,912\n你這個幾年一個月沒好啊幾年一個月沒好啊幾年一個月九十萬人跟我們兩萬人看得到吃得到其他八十幾萬人看不到了也不會贏用不到了所以不要那種那一種都是就都照顧你們就是我也不曉得是什麼一回事好啦不說了謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n331\t25845\t8加2好這個是不是請這個我還想看在叫什麼國發會還有勞動部是吧好吧 暫時這樣子\n28457\t54848\t謝謝署長國發會前陣子派一位副主委來要請假連副主委都還要請假有此可知 都不重視啊那我們為什麼今天要講這個少子女化這個議題因為台灣的這個老化的速度太快超高齡社會20%以上的65歲以上的人口\n55563\t84409\t那老化太快的這個原因啊不是因為平均壽命大幅提高許多因為超高齡社會啊一種是你突然間大家都壽命延長許多增加很多要不然就是總生育率下降的太快而我們就是總生育率下降的太快而不是平均壽命提高很多這個是很重要的因為全世界\n85649\t102416\t這個超高齡社會的這個樣態很多而我們跟日本大概就是那種總生育率下降得太快的這一種所以成為全世界的先行者我們會找不到有可能會找不到說到底要怎麼因應的策略這樣子\n103837\t126317\t那同時面臨小子女化和高齡衝擊所以政府提出很多這個因應的對策啦那現在呢要研議這個將育嬰留子停薪6加1個月那你們是預估6個月有領的大概21000人所以再增加1個月增加6億元嘛 對不對\n127839\t149827\t對 這個是 對 沒有錯那我問你有資格可以請領育嬰流艇的有多少人我們去年的數字是九萬三千多人九萬 那不是三歲以下嗎對 就去年實際上有來申請的我跟你講 三歲以下平均大概也有四五十萬人吧四五十萬的\n151195\t180011\t家庭大概有三歲以下的小孩所以夫妻兩個人的話大概90萬人有資格90萬人有資格而你說去年來請領過的人次是9萬左右那也才十分之一那你現在講說因為來請領的有人只領一個月有人領三個月 有人領四個月領滿六個月的只有兩萬一千人所以你去推估說有領滿的我再多給他一個月\n181191\t207425\t這個是照顧了兩萬一千人左右可是全部總需求理論上都有需求而且都去申請的話應該是九十萬人啊所以去年我們根據勞保的那個生育給付實際上有發生育給付的是八萬一千八百多人那如果父母都來領的話那三歲啊所以有三個啊八萬多去年生了十三萬多的小孩啊\n208185\t232152\t生育給付有來請領是8萬1我有的人不請領不代表他沒需求要暈流停他不請領生育給付他有可能他又不是受雇者或是其他的但是他生了小孩過去三歲以下的總嬰兒數總小孩數大概四五十萬不要在這邊講到那裡去都浪費我的時間\n233132\t236376\t四、五十萬的人,加點有備,有補的時間加起來就是九十萬人啦有九十萬人有資格去請啦但是呢,算是你請完,還要是兩萬一千人啦所以呢,在這裡我要講的是,你們因為流停多領一個月這個策略,這個政策,你沒有擴大\n253888\t260535\t照顧更多需求的人你只是讓便宜形式讓有資料請萬六個月那本來就是條件比較好讓他再給你一個月金價重要的是其他有90萬人他為什麼沒有不敢請滿不敢請領請滿然後也不敢請價不敢請滿也不敢來請錢也不敢請全請\n274659\t293308\t這才是重要的嘛 那就是問題啊那我們在講說延長育嬰留庭這個有效有可以提升生育的意願嗎或者是多發放一個月的津貼有辦法提升生育的意願嗎不要忘了死亡人數20萬啦2024年生育率13萬-負的7萬人耶\n301192\t324794\t再繼續付下去 台灣會很嚴重所以這持續五年的副成長而且2024年是出生人數最低的那一年而你們國科會自己有做一個研究少殖民化問題和對策實證調查分析報告受訪的人都說其實第一經濟考量是影響生育決策最重要的因素\n325715\t334125\t然後呢多數表示如果生育補助育兒津貼對生育的意願影響是有限的\n335367\t353936\t其實是經濟啦 大家可想而知是經濟啦為什麼經濟 剛剛那個次長給我們上了一堂課啊所以啊 大家都需要工作啊 女性也需要工作啊我也不想依賴先生 事實上先生也不見得能夠依賴大家一個家庭都需要雙薪收入所以絕對不能離職 不能少一份工作\n358198\t377388\t所以在這種狀況裡面 如果在這種狀況 你的想像要怎麼樣留住女性勞動力 因為她不能離職然後呢 又要她生小孩 讓她在家庭跟工作之間不能夠二擇一 同時都要兼顧這個就是勞動部過去所想像的本來是說鼓勵大家留職 停薪育兒 暫時離開職場可是大家都知道 暫時離開職場要重返\n385671\t408996\t門檻很高啦障礙很多啦所以現在才一直在轉換變成說能不能一邊育兒一邊工作不要中斷工作也不要中斷年資然後在工作和育兒之間得到平衡所以我們一直在講的是說要普及公共化托育設施要放寬家庭照顧假\n410296\t419370\t要把育嬰變成彈性親職架因為大家都知道 不然要死的時候錢是最重要的啦\n420509\t442021\t第二就是不是孩子生出來就自己大喊要陪伴 大家都知道要陪伴所以工作時數能不能陪伴也是很重要然後呢 遇到他學校有幼兒園大家都知道從保母那裡3歲送到幼兒園就開始每天感冒3歲到6歲每天都感冒 每天都要去哭\n445083\t457662\t所以這個要有價要有價怎麼來不可能你們雇主跟勞工之間有這麼多價你們願意給所以我們一直在講把育嬰價變成彈性輕職價\n460706\t480560\t所以生育案養育補貼很重要沒有錯但是要營造一個比這兩個東西還更友善的條件人家才願意生養就是要友善的生兒育女的環境你現在提供的現金補貼當然是看得到你重視它可是你們都挑最便宜形式的給錢就沒了\n481320\t495416\t而你們不願意多做一點其他各種優惠和環境配套要讓他進來所以在這裡呢國科會自己有委託研究案我剛剛講少子女化的問題案對策實證調查報告分析顯示\n496457\t521982\t育嬰價的改革雖然有顯著增加多生育胎的機率但是效果集中在所得較低的人身上對高所得的人來講毫無影響那其中一個原因就是因為你們投保薪資45800 天花板在那裡所以投保薪資上限還是很低 沒有幼嬰\n523462\t548108\t那主計總處2020有統計照顧未滿12歲的子女而離職的女性的離職風險是男性的2.7倍那從育嬰留庭和津貼制度的設計還是沒有辦法解決從這個女性又要兼顧家庭又要這個兼顧工作的這個問題\n550185\t567451\t然後女性在這種狀況如果要選擇的話有時候就會讓她女性工作的技能和年資沒有辦法有效累積所以讓女性的勞動者她會去堅持還有做那種part-time以外就變成低薪化堅持化和低薪化\n568251\t585485\t如果不離職不能離開場他要去做的工作可能要照顧家庭要照顧要工作他要做兼職然後有可能還會低薪化所以監察院國家人權委員會在家庭照顧責任和婚姻變故對婦女就業和經濟安全的影響當中有提到\n586767\t596177\t不少女性為了照顧家庭不得不選擇網拍、外送等時薪制兼職的工作但是缺少底薪的保障收入不穩定導致年老時處於高貧窮的風險\n603906\t622653\t所以在這種狀況裡面我們的女性勞參率跌下來了25到29歲本來是九成你剛剛講了你看她40到44歲來到78.6%的參與率可是同樣的年齡層我講過一遍一遍又一遍在瑞典在德國\n624894\t653155\t40到44歲的女性勞動力的參與率比25到29歲還要更高瑞典是高出7.6%德國是高了4%人家是怎麼做那我如果要這樣講的話其實我有一個建議啦你們的這種身家多一個月的津貼然後說多五天的這個什麼家庭詐是不是用那個小時來計算不如這樣子講 我也獻策\n654196\t669711\t如果是經濟安全考量 第一個 你們去大量蓋親子住宅這種親子社會住宅 因為經濟壓力最大 就來自於買房和租房大量的親子住宅 打五折 不是八折的社會住宅這個不是勞動部 這個也不是某一個單位 社福部門能解決這是請全國國家的力量要來做的\n680077\t703582\t打五折的親子社會住宅第二一站式服務在裡面公共托育完整所以讓大家在這裡面經濟的壓力降低了公共托育承擔起了這個爸爸媽媽所最擔心的公共托育公共幼兒園全部都進來了\n704822\t709404\t還要加上彈性輕職假這樣子讓女性在家庭和職場在經濟和養小孩之間我們不做選擇幼稚才要做選擇政策照顧不周才需要做選擇國家不負責任國家不負責任政府不負責任才要做選擇我們女性叫我們女性生小孩跟工作\n732651\t749236\t我不做選擇我兩者通通要那你給我們一戰式的服務親子打五折的親子社會住宅給我們彈性親子假這樣你看這樣有意願可以有想要生育嗎朝初都打五折政府企業在大應該有啦應該有喔你們都不這樣說你們都不這樣說要給內政部來參選\n758103\t764188\t不是這樣而已 你來看我們的國發會主委說什麼啦少子女化的原因是什麼少子女化的原因在這裡啦國發會講的 國發會主委講的啦最大的問題是沒有找到理想對象這個新聞我也是最近才知道欸真的很訝異啊 你覺得你可以接受\n784997\t793885\t在座的大家包括次長各單位的業務單位台灣小子女化的主要原因是因為沒有找到理想的對象嗎\n796974\t816848\t所以我的理解新加坡政府是最近這裡每一年都編預算去找各個民間團體去辦所謂的那個未婚男女的聯誼這個我們支持我們也大量的鼓勵政府可以這麼做可是我們如果討論少子女化的原因你會歸則於最大原因是這個嗎有這麼幼稚嗎好啦再下一個\n823110\t839582\t國科委委託了這個找人家來研究啦少子女化問題案對策實證調查報告花了多少錢啊兩個案子都委託台大經濟系去做啦兩個案子都兩千兩百萬加起來四千多萬\n841107\t859680\t然後提了一個少子女化問題案對策實證調查分析案報告他說台灣平均年工時2020高於OECD的1742顯示已婚全職者平均一天工作 已婚的喔 全職的喔平均一天要工作九個小時通勤一個小時 十個小時的\n860280\t876095\t已婚的女性晚上加班 夜間工作平均1.1個小時男性晚上加班 已婚男性1.85個小時所以25到39歲已婚的人 夜間工時平均要1.6個小時他怎麼陪伴小孩\n878797\t892815\t工作壓力 長工時 育嬰假沒有彈性使用上還有性別的差異所以讓女性在婚育過程當中承受較大的職癌中斷的風險而男性因為工作壓力和夜間工時長家庭互動時間不足\n894637\t917785\t所以青年會傾向於申請更短期的育嬰假所以我們需要的是這個育嬰假要讓他彈性化而生育後的母親他的勞動參與率跟工資皆明顯下降而且持續時間很長所以這個對男性影響不大 對女性影響很大所以要兼顧家庭所以我有禁慾生育率跟女性就業率的正相關\n919145\t942596\t你生育率要提高但是女性的就業率也要提高兩個都要正相關而這樣的有效的政策才能夠讓家長女性勞動率蓄留職場才可以避免制度誤導女性離職去育兒所以我們在講這個事你要看下一頁勞動部\n944713\t972780\t不是 國發會國發會提出的政策建議是什麼針對未婚男性 男女啦要建置身份認證的交友平台這個我有點懷疑啊如果年輕 應該問年輕男女民間那麼多 你去參加然後政府也建置這個我們都不反對而且我們認為也可以做 而且應該要做但是會是國家重大的政策嗎\n975106\t991098\t針對未婚青年重大的政策是做這樣子嗎然後增加家庭和育兒支持他講到投保薪資上限要拿掉拿更多那這樣子你們的\n992419\t1017589\t給父要更多喔所以他認為你們的給父是不夠的然後還有你看怎麼樣增加年輕人願意生小孩的意願放寬家事幫傭移工幫助育兒工作如果要放寬家事移工放寬育兒工作那我們還需要在這裡討論公托還需要在這裡討論這個津貼嗎\n1021410\t1037997\t這個有沒有階級化的需求 難怪從國發會 國科會 到勞動部 到政府都一講說我要放寬家事幫傭大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔\n1052174\t1055339\t說這些都太橫了啦所以我在講意思是他們下一頁是什麼政策目標下一頁有嗎 沒有了 好\n1062375\t1084839\t所以在這裡家事幫庸可以解決男女分工的問題家事幫庸可以解決所有年輕父母不生的問題然後讓他們願意生 但願如此啊說到這都太狠了開4000萬元 研究出來政策給政府的政策是這樣 放寬家事幫庸然後去做一個交友平台\n1089929\t1111435\t台大走的然後國發會奉為歸納勞動部放寬家事帮傭奉為歸納這樣子可以解決嗎我要說都不用了我這個不去做政策研究我告訴你我剛才說了 再說一次打五折的 親子社會住宅以戰士的服務社區裡面全面的從0到6歲\n1114076\t1125119\t托兒 托育 全面一站式服務然後我剛剛講的育嬰留庭不給雇主麻煩 也不給政府麻煩把它變成放寬到8歲然後以天 甚至以小時為單位可以去請領的彈性親職假這才是正本清源啦 別說那麼多啦\n1139581\t1156931\t經濟問題要改觀住宿的問題要可進性高要可負擔性打五折的社會住宅啦就是這樣子這樣可以了嗎我們那個關於那個迂流艇還有家庭照顧架更彈性化的方向我們現在全部都在研議中\n1158490\t1180912\t你這個幾年一個月沒好啊幾年一個月沒好啊幾年一個月九十萬人跟我們兩萬人看得到吃得到其他八十幾萬人看不到了也不會贏用不到了所以不要那種那一種都是就都照顧你們就是我也不曉得是什麼一回事好啦不說了謝謝\n","txt":"8加2好這個是不是請這個我還想看在叫什麼國發會還有勞動部是吧好吧 暫時這樣子\n謝謝署長國發會前陣子派一位副主委來要請假連副主委都還要請假有此可知 都不重視啊那我們為什麼今天要講這個少子女化這個議題因為台灣的這個老化的速度太快超高齡社會20%以上的65歲以上的人口\n那老化太快的這個原因啊不是因為平均壽命大幅提高許多因為超高齡社會啊一種是你突然間大家都壽命延長許多增加很多要不然就是總生育率下降的太快而我們就是總生育率下降的太快而不是平均壽命提高很多這個是很重要的因為全世界\n這個超高齡社會的這個樣態很多而我們跟日本大概就是那種總生育率下降得太快的這一種所以成為全世界的先行者我們會找不到有可能會找不到說到底要怎麼因應的策略這樣子\n那同時面臨小子女化和高齡衝擊所以政府提出很多這個因應的對策啦那現在呢要研議這個將育嬰留子停薪6加1個月那你們是預估6個月有領的大概21000人所以再增加1個月增加6億元嘛 對不對\n對 這個是 對 沒有錯那我問你有資格可以請領育嬰流艇的有多少人我們去年的數字是九萬三千多人九萬 那不是三歲以下嗎對 就去年實際上有來申請的我跟你講 三歲以下平均大概也有四五十萬人吧四五十萬的\n家庭大概有三歲以下的小孩所以夫妻兩個人的話大概90萬人有資格90萬人有資格而你說去年來請領過的人次是9萬左右那也才十分之一那你現在講說因為來請領的有人只領一個月有人領三個月 有人領四個月領滿六個月的只有兩萬一千人所以你去推估說有領滿的我再多給他一個月\n這個是照顧了兩萬一千人左右可是全部總需求理論上都有需求而且都去申請的話應該是九十萬人啊所以去年我們根據勞保的那個生育給付實際上有發生育給付的是八萬一千八百多人那如果父母都來領的話那三歲啊所以有三個啊八萬多去年生了十三萬多的小孩啊\n生育給付有來請領是8萬1我有的人不請領不代表他沒需求要暈流停他不請領生育給付他有可能他又不是受雇者或是其他的但是他生了小孩過去三歲以下的總嬰兒數總小孩數大概四五十萬不要在這邊講到那裡去都浪費我的時間\n四、五十萬的人,加點有備,有補的時間加起來就是九十萬人啦有九十萬人有資格去請啦但是呢,算是你請完,還要是兩萬一千人啦所以呢,在這裡我要講的是,你們因為流停多領一個月這個策略,這個政策,你沒有擴大\n照顧更多需求的人你只是讓便宜形式讓有資料請萬六個月那本來就是條件比較好讓他再給你一個月金價重要的是其他有90萬人他為什麼沒有不敢請滿不敢請領請滿然後也不敢請價不敢請滿也不敢來請錢也不敢請全請\n這才是重要的嘛 那就是問題啊那我們在講說延長育嬰留庭這個有效有可以提升生育的意願嗎或者是多發放一個月的津貼有辦法提升生育的意願嗎不要忘了死亡人數20萬啦2024年生育率13萬-負的7萬人耶\n再繼續付下去 台灣會很嚴重所以這持續五年的副成長而且2024年是出生人數最低的那一年而你們國科會自己有做一個研究少殖民化問題和對策實證調查分析報告受訪的人都說其實第一經濟考量是影響生育決策最重要的因素\n然後呢多數表示如果生育補助育兒津貼對生育的意願影響是有限的\n其實是經濟啦 大家可想而知是經濟啦為什麼經濟 剛剛那個次長給我們上了一堂課啊所以啊 大家都需要工作啊 女性也需要工作啊我也不想依賴先生 事實上先生也不見得能夠依賴大家一個家庭都需要雙薪收入所以絕對不能離職 不能少一份工作\n所以在這種狀況裡面 如果在這種狀況 你的想像要怎麼樣留住女性勞動力 因為她不能離職然後呢 又要她生小孩 讓她在家庭跟工作之間不能夠二擇一 同時都要兼顧這個就是勞動部過去所想像的本來是說鼓勵大家留職 停薪育兒 暫時離開職場可是大家都知道 暫時離開職場要重返\n門檻很高啦障礙很多啦所以現在才一直在轉換變成說能不能一邊育兒一邊工作不要中斷工作也不要中斷年資然後在工作和育兒之間得到平衡所以我們一直在講的是說要普及公共化托育設施要放寬家庭照顧假\n要把育嬰變成彈性親職架因為大家都知道 不然要死的時候錢是最重要的啦\n第二就是不是孩子生出來就自己大喊要陪伴 大家都知道要陪伴所以工作時數能不能陪伴也是很重要然後呢 遇到他學校有幼兒園大家都知道從保母那裡3歲送到幼兒園就開始每天感冒3歲到6歲每天都感冒 每天都要去哭\n所以這個要有價要有價怎麼來不可能你們雇主跟勞工之間有這麼多價你們願意給所以我們一直在講把育嬰價變成彈性輕職價\n所以生育案養育補貼很重要沒有錯但是要營造一個比這兩個東西還更友善的條件人家才願意生養就是要友善的生兒育女的環境你現在提供的現金補貼當然是看得到你重視它可是你們都挑最便宜形式的給錢就沒了\n而你們不願意多做一點其他各種優惠和環境配套要讓他進來所以在這裡呢國科會自己有委託研究案我剛剛講少子女化的問題案對策實證調查報告分析顯示\n育嬰價的改革雖然有顯著增加多生育胎的機率但是效果集中在所得較低的人身上對高所得的人來講毫無影響那其中一個原因就是因為你們投保薪資45800 天花板在那裡所以投保薪資上限還是很低 沒有幼嬰\n那主計總處2020有統計照顧未滿12歲的子女而離職的女性的離職風險是男性的2.7倍那從育嬰留庭和津貼制度的設計還是沒有辦法解決從這個女性又要兼顧家庭又要這個兼顧工作的這個問題\n然後女性在這種狀況如果要選擇的話有時候就會讓她女性工作的技能和年資沒有辦法有效累積所以讓女性的勞動者她會去堅持還有做那種part-time以外就變成低薪化堅持化和低薪化\n如果不離職不能離開場他要去做的工作可能要照顧家庭要照顧要工作他要做兼職然後有可能還會低薪化所以監察院國家人權委員會在家庭照顧責任和婚姻變故對婦女就業和經濟安全的影響當中有提到\n不少女性為了照顧家庭不得不選擇網拍、外送等時薪制兼職的工作但是缺少底薪的保障收入不穩定導致年老時處於高貧窮的風險\n所以在這種狀況裡面我們的女性勞參率跌下來了25到29歲本來是九成你剛剛講了你看她40到44歲來到78.6%的參與率可是同樣的年齡層我講過一遍一遍又一遍在瑞典在德國\n40到44歲的女性勞動力的參與率比25到29歲還要更高瑞典是高出7.6%德國是高了4%人家是怎麼做那我如果要這樣講的話其實我有一個建議啦你們的這種身家多一個月的津貼然後說多五天的這個什麼家庭詐是不是用那個小時來計算不如這樣子講 我也獻策\n如果是經濟安全考量 第一個 你們去大量蓋親子住宅這種親子社會住宅 因為經濟壓力最大 就來自於買房和租房大量的親子住宅 打五折 不是八折的社會住宅這個不是勞動部 這個也不是某一個單位 社福部門能解決這是請全國國家的力量要來做的\n打五折的親子社會住宅第二一站式服務在裡面公共托育完整所以讓大家在這裡面經濟的壓力降低了公共托育承擔起了這個爸爸媽媽所最擔心的公共托育公共幼兒園全部都進來了\n還要加上彈性輕職假這樣子讓女性在家庭和職場在經濟和養小孩之間我們不做選擇幼稚才要做選擇政策照顧不周才需要做選擇國家不負責任國家不負責任政府不負責任才要做選擇我們女性叫我們女性生小孩跟工作\n我不做選擇我兩者通通要那你給我們一戰式的服務親子打五折的親子社會住宅給我們彈性親子假這樣你看這樣有意願可以有想要生育嗎朝初都打五折政府企業在大應該有啦應該有喔你們都不這樣說你們都不這樣說要給內政部來參選\n不是這樣而已 你來看我們的國發會主委說什麼啦少子女化的原因是什麼少子女化的原因在這裡啦國發會講的 國發會主委講的啦最大的問題是沒有找到理想對象這個新聞我也是最近才知道欸真的很訝異啊 你覺得你可以接受\n在座的大家包括次長各單位的業務單位台灣小子女化的主要原因是因為沒有找到理想的對象嗎\n所以我的理解新加坡政府是最近這裡每一年都編預算去找各個民間團體去辦所謂的那個未婚男女的聯誼這個我們支持我們也大量的鼓勵政府可以這麼做可是我們如果討論少子女化的原因你會歸則於最大原因是這個嗎有這麼幼稚嗎好啦再下一個\n國科委委託了這個找人家來研究啦少子女化問題案對策實證調查報告花了多少錢啊兩個案子都委託台大經濟系去做啦兩個案子都兩千兩百萬加起來四千多萬\n然後提了一個少子女化問題案對策實證調查分析案報告他說台灣平均年工時2020高於OECD的1742顯示已婚全職者平均一天工作 已婚的喔 全職的喔平均一天要工作九個小時通勤一個小時 十個小時的\n已婚的女性晚上加班 夜間工作平均1.1個小時男性晚上加班 已婚男性1.85個小時所以25到39歲已婚的人 夜間工時平均要1.6個小時他怎麼陪伴小孩\n工作壓力 長工時 育嬰假沒有彈性使用上還有性別的差異所以讓女性在婚育過程當中承受較大的職癌中斷的風險而男性因為工作壓力和夜間工時長家庭互動時間不足\n所以青年會傾向於申請更短期的育嬰假所以我們需要的是這個育嬰假要讓他彈性化而生育後的母親他的勞動參與率跟工資皆明顯下降而且持續時間很長所以這個對男性影響不大 對女性影響很大所以要兼顧家庭所以我有禁慾生育率跟女性就業率的正相關\n你生育率要提高但是女性的就業率也要提高兩個都要正相關而這樣的有效的政策才能夠讓家長女性勞動率蓄留職場才可以避免制度誤導女性離職去育兒所以我們在講這個事你要看下一頁勞動部\n不是 國發會國發會提出的政策建議是什麼針對未婚男性 男女啦要建置身份認證的交友平台這個我有點懷疑啊如果年輕 應該問年輕男女民間那麼多 你去參加然後政府也建置這個我們都不反對而且我們認為也可以做 而且應該要做但是會是國家重大的政策嗎\n針對未婚青年重大的政策是做這樣子嗎然後增加家庭和育兒支持他講到投保薪資上限要拿掉拿更多那這樣子你們的\n給父要更多喔所以他認為你們的給父是不夠的然後還有你看怎麼樣增加年輕人願意生小孩的意願放寬家事幫傭移工幫助育兒工作如果要放寬家事移工放寬育兒工作那我們還需要在這裡討論公托還需要在這裡討論這個津貼嗎\n這個有沒有階級化的需求 難怪從國發會 國科會 到勞動部 到政府都一講說我要放寬家事幫傭大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔\n說這些都太橫了啦所以我在講意思是他們下一頁是什麼政策目標下一頁有嗎 沒有了 好\n所以在這裡家事幫庸可以解決男女分工的問題家事幫庸可以解決所有年輕父母不生的問題然後讓他們願意生 但願如此啊說到這都太狠了開4000萬元 研究出來政策給政府的政策是這樣 放寬家事幫庸然後去做一個交友平台\n台大走的然後國發會奉為歸納勞動部放寬家事帮傭奉為歸納這樣子可以解決嗎我要說都不用了我這個不去做政策研究我告訴你我剛才說了 再說一次打五折的 親子社會住宅以戰士的服務社區裡面全面的從0到6歲\n托兒 托育 全面一站式服務然後我剛剛講的育嬰留庭不給雇主麻煩 也不給政府麻煩把它變成放寬到8歲然後以天 甚至以小時為單位可以去請領的彈性親職假這才是正本清源啦 別說那麼多啦\n經濟問題要改觀住宿的問題要可進性高要可負擔性打五折的社會住宅啦就是這樣子這樣可以了嗎我們那個關於那個迂流艇還有家庭照顧架更彈性化的方向我們現在全部都在研議中\n你這個幾年一個月沒好啊幾年一個月沒好啊幾年一個月九十萬人跟我們兩萬人看得到吃得到其他八十幾萬人看不到了也不會贏用不到了所以不要那種那一種都是就都照顧你們就是我也不曉得是什麼一回事好啦不說了謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.331 --> 00:25.845\n8加2好這個是不是請這個我還想看在叫什麼國發會還有勞動部是吧好吧暫時這樣子\n\n00:28.457 --> 00:54.848\n謝謝署長國發會前陣子派一位副主委來要請假連副主委都還要請假有此可知都不重視啊那我們為什麼今天要講這個少子女化這個議題因為台灣的這個老化的速度太快超高齡社會20%以上的65歲以上的人口\n\n00:55.563 --> 01:24.409\n那老化太快的這個原因啊不是因為平均壽命大幅提高許多因為超高齡社會啊一種是你突然間大家都壽命延長許多增加很多要不然就是總生育率下降的太快而我們就是總生育率下降的太快而不是平均壽命提高很多這個是很重要的因為全世界\n\n01:25.649 --> 01:42.416\n這個超高齡社會的這個樣態很多而我們跟日本大概就是那種總生育率下降得太快的這一種所以成為全世界的先行者我們會找不到有可能會找不到說到底要怎麼因應的策略這樣子\n\n01:43.837 --> 02:06.317\n那同時面臨小子女化和高齡衝擊所以政府提出很多這個因應的對策啦那現在呢要研議這個將育嬰留子停薪6加1個月那你們是預估6個月有領的大概21000人所以再增加1個月增加6億元嘛對不對\n\n02:07.839 --> 02:29.827\n對這個是對沒有錯那我問你有資格可以請領育嬰流艇的有多少人我們去年的數字是九萬三千多人九萬那不是三歲以下嗎對就去年實際上有來申請的我跟你講三歲以下平均大概也有四五十萬人吧四五十萬的\n\n02:31.195 --> 03:00.011\n家庭大概有三歲以下的小孩所以夫妻兩個人的話大概90萬人有資格90萬人有資格而你說去年來請領過的人次是9萬左右那也才十分之一那你現在講說因為來請領的有人只領一個月有人領三個月有人領四個月領滿六個月的只有兩萬一千人所以你去推估說有領滿的我再多給他一個月\n\n03:01.191 --> 03:27.425\n這個是照顧了兩萬一千人左右可是全部總需求理論上都有需求而且都去申請的話應該是九十萬人啊所以去年我們根據勞保的那個生育給付實際上有發生育給付的是八萬一千八百多人那如果父母都來領的話那三歲啊所以有三個啊八萬多去年生了十三萬多的小孩啊\n\n03:28.185 --> 03:52.152\n生育給付有來請領是8萬1我有的人不請領不代表他沒需求要暈流停他不請領生育給付他有可能他又不是受雇者或是其他的但是他生了小孩過去三歲以下的總嬰兒數總小孩數大概四五十萬不要在這邊講到那裡去都浪費我的時間\n\n03:53.132 --> 03:56.376\n四、五十萬的人,加點有備,有補的時間加起來就是九十萬人啦有九十萬人有資格去請啦但是呢,算是你請完,還要是兩萬一千人啦所以呢,在這裡我要講的是,你們因為流停多領一個月這個策略,這個政策,你沒有擴大\n\n04:13.888 --> 04:20.535\n照顧更多需求的人你只是讓便宜形式讓有資料請萬六個月那本來就是條件比較好讓他再給你一個月金價重要的是其他有90萬人他為什麼沒有不敢請滿不敢請領請滿然後也不敢請價不敢請滿也不敢來請錢也不敢請全請\n\n04:34.659 --> 04:53.308\n這才是重要的嘛那就是問題啊那我們在講說延長育嬰留庭這個有效有可以提升生育的意願嗎或者是多發放一個月的津貼有辦法提升生育的意願嗎不要忘了死亡人數20萬啦2024年生育率13萬-負的7萬人耶\n\n05:01.192 --> 05:24.794\n再繼續付下去台灣會很嚴重所以這持續五年的副成長而且2024年是出生人數最低的那一年而你們國科會自己有做一個研究少殖民化問題和對策實證調查分析報告受訪的人都說其實第一經濟考量是影響生育決策最重要的因素\n\n05:25.715 --> 05:34.125\n然後呢多數表示如果生育補助育兒津貼對生育的意願影響是有限的\n\n05:35.367 --> 05:53.936\n其實是經濟啦大家可想而知是經濟啦為什麼經濟剛剛那個次長給我們上了一堂課啊所以啊大家都需要工作啊女性也需要工作啊我也不想依賴先生事實上先生也不見得能夠依賴大家一個家庭都需要雙薪收入所以絕對不能離職不能少一份工作\n\n05:58.198 --> 06:17.388\n所以在這種狀況裡面如果在這種狀況你的想像要怎麼樣留住女性勞動力因為她不能離職然後呢又要她生小孩讓她在家庭跟工作之間不能夠二擇一同時都要兼顧這個就是勞動部過去所想像的本來是說鼓勵大家留職停薪育兒暫時離開職場可是大家都知道暫時離開職場要重返\n\n06:25.671 --> 06:48.996\n門檻很高啦障礙很多啦所以現在才一直在轉換變成說能不能一邊育兒一邊工作不要中斷工作也不要中斷年資然後在工作和育兒之間得到平衡所以我們一直在講的是說要普及公共化托育設施要放寬家庭照顧假\n\n06:50.296 --> 06:59.370\n要把育嬰變成彈性親職架因為大家都知道不然要死的時候錢是最重要的啦\n\n07:00.509 --> 07:22.021\n第二就是不是孩子生出來就自己大喊要陪伴大家都知道要陪伴所以工作時數能不能陪伴也是很重要然後呢遇到他學校有幼兒園大家都知道從保母那裡3歲送到幼兒園就開始每天感冒3歲到6歲每天都感冒每天都要去哭\n\n07:25.083 --> 07:37.662\n所以這個要有價要有價怎麼來不可能你們雇主跟勞工之間有這麼多價你們願意給所以我們一直在講把育嬰價變成彈性輕職價\n\n07:40.706 --> 08:00.560\n所以生育案養育補貼很重要沒有錯但是要營造一個比這兩個東西還更友善的條件人家才願意生養就是要友善的生兒育女的環境你現在提供的現金補貼當然是看得到你重視它可是你們都挑最便宜形式的給錢就沒了\n\n08:01.320 --> 08:15.416\n而你們不願意多做一點其他各種優惠和環境配套要讓他進來所以在這裡呢國科會自己有委託研究案我剛剛講少子女化的問題案對策實證調查報告分析顯示\n\n08:16.457 --> 08:41.982\n育嬰價的改革雖然有顯著增加多生育胎的機率但是效果集中在所得較低的人身上對高所得的人來講毫無影響那其中一個原因就是因為你們投保薪資45800天花板在那裡所以投保薪資上限還是很低沒有幼嬰\n\n08:43.462 --> 09:08.108\n那主計總處2020有統計照顧未滿12歲的子女而離職的女性的離職風險是男性的2.7倍那從育嬰留庭和津貼制度的設計還是沒有辦法解決從這個女性又要兼顧家庭又要這個兼顧工作的這個問題\n\n09:10.185 --> 09:27.451\n然後女性在這種狀況如果要選擇的話有時候就會讓她女性工作的技能和年資沒有辦法有效累積所以讓女性的勞動者她會去堅持還有做那種part-time以外就變成低薪化堅持化和低薪化\n\n09:28.251 --> 09:45.485\n如果不離職不能離開場他要去做的工作可能要照顧家庭要照顧要工作他要做兼職然後有可能還會低薪化所以監察院國家人權委員會在家庭照顧責任和婚姻變故對婦女就業和經濟安全的影響當中有提到\n\n09:46.767 --> 09:56.177\n不少女性為了照顧家庭不得不選擇網拍、外送等時薪制兼職的工作但是缺少底薪的保障收入不穩定導致年老時處於高貧窮的風險\n\n10:03.906 --> 10:22.653\n所以在這種狀況裡面我們的女性勞參率跌下來了25到29歲本來是九成你剛剛講了你看她40到44歲來到78.6%的參與率可是同樣的年齡層我講過一遍一遍又一遍在瑞典在德國\n\n10:24.894 --> 10:53.155\n40到44歲的女性勞動力的參與率比25到29歲還要更高瑞典是高出7.6%德國是高了4%人家是怎麼做那我如果要這樣講的話其實我有一個建議啦你們的這種身家多一個月的津貼然後說多五天的這個什麼家庭詐是不是用那個小時來計算不如這樣子講我也獻策\n\n10:54.196 --> 11:09.711\n如果是經濟安全考量第一個你們去大量蓋親子住宅這種親子社會住宅因為經濟壓力最大就來自於買房和租房大量的親子住宅打五折不是八折的社會住宅這個不是勞動部這個也不是某一個單位社福部門能解決這是請全國國家的力量要來做的\n\n11:20.077 --> 11:43.582\n打五折的親子社會住宅第二一站式服務在裡面公共托育完整所以讓大家在這裡面經濟的壓力降低了公共托育承擔起了這個爸爸媽媽所最擔心的公共托育公共幼兒園全部都進來了\n\n11:44.822 --> 11:49.404\n還要加上彈性輕職假這樣子讓女性在家庭和職場在經濟和養小孩之間我們不做選擇幼稚才要做選擇政策照顧不周才需要做選擇國家不負責任國家不負責任政府不負責任才要做選擇我們女性叫我們女性生小孩跟工作\n\n12:12.651 --> 12:29.236\n我不做選擇我兩者通通要那你給我們一戰式的服務親子打五折的親子社會住宅給我們彈性親子假這樣你看這樣有意願可以有想要生育嗎朝初都打五折政府企業在大應該有啦應該有喔你們都不這樣說你們都不這樣說要給內政部來參選\n\n12:38.103 --> 12:44.188\n不是這樣而已你來看我們的國發會主委說什麼啦少子女化的原因是什麼少子女化的原因在這裡啦國發會講的國發會主委講的啦最大的問題是沒有找到理想對象這個新聞我也是最近才知道欸真的很訝異啊你覺得你可以接受\n\n13:04.997 --> 13:13.885\n在座的大家包括次長各單位的業務單位台灣小子女化的主要原因是因為沒有找到理想的對象嗎\n\n13:16.974 --> 13:36.848\n所以我的理解新加坡政府是最近這裡每一年都編預算去找各個民間團體去辦所謂的那個未婚男女的聯誼這個我們支持我們也大量的鼓勵政府可以這麼做可是我們如果討論少子女化的原因你會歸則於最大原因是這個嗎有這麼幼稚嗎好啦再下一個\n\n13:43.110 --> 13:59.582\n國科委委託了這個找人家來研究啦少子女化問題案對策實證調查報告花了多少錢啊兩個案子都委託台大經濟系去做啦兩個案子都兩千兩百萬加起來四千多萬\n\n14:01.107 --> 14:19.680\n然後提了一個少子女化問題案對策實證調查分析案報告他說台灣平均年工時2020高於OECD的1742顯示已婚全職者平均一天工作已婚的喔全職的喔平均一天要工作九個小時通勤一個小時十個小時的\n\n14:20.280 --> 14:36.095\n已婚的女性晚上加班夜間工作平均1.1個小時男性晚上加班已婚男性1.85個小時所以25到39歲已婚的人夜間工時平均要1.6個小時他怎麼陪伴小孩\n\n14:38.797 --> 14:52.815\n工作壓力長工時育嬰假沒有彈性使用上還有性別的差異所以讓女性在婚育過程當中承受較大的職癌中斷的風險而男性因為工作壓力和夜間工時長家庭互動時間不足\n\n14:54.637 --> 15:17.785\n所以青年會傾向於申請更短期的育嬰假所以我們需要的是這個育嬰假要讓他彈性化而生育後的母親他的勞動參與率跟工資皆明顯下降而且持續時間很長所以這個對男性影響不大對女性影響很大所以要兼顧家庭所以我有禁慾生育率跟女性就業率的正相關\n\n15:19.145 --> 15:42.596\n你生育率要提高但是女性的就業率也要提高兩個都要正相關而這樣的有效的政策才能夠讓家長女性勞動率蓄留職場才可以避免制度誤導女性離職去育兒所以我們在講這個事你要看下一頁勞動部\n\n15:44.713 --> 16:12.780\n不是國發會國發會提出的政策建議是什麼針對未婚男性男女啦要建置身份認證的交友平台這個我有點懷疑啊如果年輕應該問年輕男女民間那麼多你去參加然後政府也建置這個我們都不反對而且我們認為也可以做而且應該要做但是會是國家重大的政策嗎\n\n16:15.106 --> 16:31.098\n針對未婚青年重大的政策是做這樣子嗎然後增加家庭和育兒支持他講到投保薪資上限要拿掉拿更多那這樣子你們的\n\n16:32.419 --> 16:57.589\n給父要更多喔所以他認為你們的給父是不夠的然後還有你看怎麼樣增加年輕人願意生小孩的意願放寬家事幫傭移工幫助育兒工作如果要放寬家事移工放寬育兒工作那我們還需要在這裡討論公托還需要在這裡討論這個津貼嗎\n\n17:01.410 --> 17:17.997\n這個有沒有階級化的需求難怪從國發會國科會到勞動部到政府都一講說我要放寬家事幫傭大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔\n\n17:32.174 --> 17:35.339\n說這些都太橫了啦所以我在講意思是他們下一頁是什麼政策目標下一頁有嗎沒有了好\n\n17:42.375 --> 18:04.839\n所以在這裡家事幫庸可以解決男女分工的問題家事幫庸可以解決所有年輕父母不生的問題然後讓他們願意生但願如此啊說到這都太狠了開4000萬元研究出來政策給政府的政策是這樣放寬家事幫庸然後去做一個交友平台\n\n18:09.929 --> 18:31.435\n台大走的然後國發會奉為歸納勞動部放寬家事帮傭奉為歸納這樣子可以解決嗎我要說都不用了我這個不去做政策研究我告訴你我剛才說了再說一次打五折的親子社會住宅以戰士的服務社區裡面全面的從0到6歲\n\n18:34.076 --> 18:45.119\n托兒托育全面一站式服務然後我剛剛講的育嬰留庭不給雇主麻煩也不給政府麻煩把它變成放寬到8歲然後以天甚至以小時為單位可以去請領的彈性親職假這才是正本清源啦別說那麼多啦\n\n18:59.581 --> 19:16.931\n經濟問題要改觀住宿的問題要可進性高要可負擔性打五折的社會住宅啦就是這樣子這樣可以了嗎我們那個關於那個迂流艇還有家庭照顧架更彈性化的方向我們現在全部都在研議中\n\n19:18.490 --> 19:40.912\n你這個幾年一個月沒好啊幾年一個月沒好啊幾年一個月九十萬人跟我們兩萬人看得到吃得到其他八十幾萬人看不到了也不會贏用不到了所以不要那種那一種都是就都照顧你們就是我也不曉得是什麼一回事好啦不說了謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.331,"end":25.845,"text":"8加2好這個是不是請這個我還想看在叫什麼國發會還有勞動部是吧好吧 暫時這樣子"},{"start":28.457,"end":54.848,"text":"謝謝署長國發會前陣子派一位副主委來要請假連副主委都還要請假有此可知 都不重視啊那我們為什麼今天要講這個少子女化這個議題因為台灣的這個老化的速度太快超高齡社會20%以上的65歲以上的人口"},{"start":55.563,"end":84.409,"text":"那老化太快的這個原因啊不是因為平均壽命大幅提高許多因為超高齡社會啊一種是你突然間大家都壽命延長許多增加很多要不然就是總生育率下降的太快而我們就是總生育率下降的太快而不是平均壽命提高很多這個是很重要的因為全世界"},{"start":85.649,"end":102.416,"text":"這個超高齡社會的這個樣態很多而我們跟日本大概就是那種總生育率下降得太快的這一種所以成為全世界的先行者我們會找不到有可能會找不到說到底要怎麼因應的策略這樣子"},{"start":103.837,"end":126.317,"text":"那同時面臨小子女化和高齡衝擊所以政府提出很多這個因應的對策啦那現在呢要研議這個將育嬰留子停薪6加1個月那你們是預估6個月有領的大概21000人所以再增加1個月增加6億元嘛 對不對"},{"start":127.839,"end":149.827,"text":"對 這個是 對 沒有錯那我問你有資格可以請領育嬰流艇的有多少人我們去年的數字是九萬三千多人九萬 那不是三歲以下嗎對 就去年實際上有來申請的我跟你講 三歲以下平均大概也有四五十萬人吧四五十萬的"},{"start":151.195,"end":180.011,"text":"家庭大概有三歲以下的小孩所以夫妻兩個人的話大概90萬人有資格90萬人有資格而你說去年來請領過的人次是9萬左右那也才十分之一那你現在講說因為來請領的有人只領一個月有人領三個月 有人領四個月領滿六個月的只有兩萬一千人所以你去推估說有領滿的我再多給他一個月"},{"start":181.191,"end":207.425,"text":"這個是照顧了兩萬一千人左右可是全部總需求理論上都有需求而且都去申請的話應該是九十萬人啊所以去年我們根據勞保的那個生育給付實際上有發生育給付的是八萬一千八百多人那如果父母都來領的話那三歲啊所以有三個啊八萬多去年生了十三萬多的小孩啊"},{"start":208.185,"end":232.152,"text":"生育給付有來請領是8萬1我有的人不請領不代表他沒需求要暈流停他不請領生育給付他有可能他又不是受雇者或是其他的但是他生了小孩過去三歲以下的總嬰兒數總小孩數大概四五十萬不要在這邊講到那裡去都浪費我的時間"},{"start":233.132,"end":236.376,"text":"四、五十萬的人,加點有備,有補的時間加起來就是九十萬人啦有九十萬人有資格去請啦但是呢,算是你請完,還要是兩萬一千人啦所以呢,在這裡我要講的是,你們因為流停多領一個月這個策略,這個政策,你沒有擴大"},{"start":253.888,"end":260.535,"text":"照顧更多需求的人你只是讓便宜形式讓有資料請萬六個月那本來就是條件比較好讓他再給你一個月金價重要的是其他有90萬人他為什麼沒有不敢請滿不敢請領請滿然後也不敢請價不敢請滿也不敢來請錢也不敢請全請"},{"start":274.659,"end":293.308,"text":"這才是重要的嘛 那就是問題啊那我們在講說延長育嬰留庭這個有效有可以提升生育的意願嗎或者是多發放一個月的津貼有辦法提升生育的意願嗎不要忘了死亡人數20萬啦2024年生育率13萬-負的7萬人耶"},{"start":301.192,"end":324.794,"text":"再繼續付下去 台灣會很嚴重所以這持續五年的副成長而且2024年是出生人數最低的那一年而你們國科會自己有做一個研究少殖民化問題和對策實證調查分析報告受訪的人都說其實第一經濟考量是影響生育決策最重要的因素"},{"start":325.715,"end":334.125,"text":"然後呢多數表示如果生育補助育兒津貼對生育的意願影響是有限的"},{"start":335.367,"end":353.936,"text":"其實是經濟啦 大家可想而知是經濟啦為什麼經濟 剛剛那個次長給我們上了一堂課啊所以啊 大家都需要工作啊 女性也需要工作啊我也不想依賴先生 事實上先生也不見得能夠依賴大家一個家庭都需要雙薪收入所以絕對不能離職 不能少一份工作"},{"start":358.198,"end":377.388,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面 如果在這種狀況 你的想像要怎麼樣留住女性勞動力 因為她不能離職然後呢 又要她生小孩 讓她在家庭跟工作之間不能夠二擇一 同時都要兼顧這個就是勞動部過去所想像的本來是說鼓勵大家留職 停薪育兒 暫時離開職場可是大家都知道 暫時離開職場要重返"},{"start":385.671,"end":408.996,"text":"門檻很高啦障礙很多啦所以現在才一直在轉換變成說能不能一邊育兒一邊工作不要中斷工作也不要中斷年資然後在工作和育兒之間得到平衡所以我們一直在講的是說要普及公共化托育設施要放寬家庭照顧假"},{"start":410.296,"end":419.37,"text":"要把育嬰變成彈性親職架因為大家都知道 不然要死的時候錢是最重要的啦"},{"start":420.509,"end":442.021,"text":"第二就是不是孩子生出來就自己大喊要陪伴 大家都知道要陪伴所以工作時數能不能陪伴也是很重要然後呢 遇到他學校有幼兒園大家都知道從保母那裡3歲送到幼兒園就開始每天感冒3歲到6歲每天都感冒 每天都要去哭"},{"start":445.083,"end":457.662,"text":"所以這個要有價要有價怎麼來不可能你們雇主跟勞工之間有這麼多價你們願意給所以我們一直在講把育嬰價變成彈性輕職價"},{"start":460.706,"end":480.56,"text":"所以生育案養育補貼很重要沒有錯但是要營造一個比這兩個東西還更友善的條件人家才願意生養就是要友善的生兒育女的環境你現在提供的現金補貼當然是看得到你重視它可是你們都挑最便宜形式的給錢就沒了"},{"start":481.32,"end":495.416,"text":"而你們不願意多做一點其他各種優惠和環境配套要讓他進來所以在這裡呢國科會自己有委託研究案我剛剛講少子女化的問題案對策實證調查報告分析顯示"},{"start":496.457,"end":521.982,"text":"育嬰價的改革雖然有顯著增加多生育胎的機率但是效果集中在所得較低的人身上對高所得的人來講毫無影響那其中一個原因就是因為你們投保薪資45800 天花板在那裡所以投保薪資上限還是很低 沒有幼嬰"},{"start":523.462,"end":548.108,"text":"那主計總處2020有統計照顧未滿12歲的子女而離職的女性的離職風險是男性的2.7倍那從育嬰留庭和津貼制度的設計還是沒有辦法解決從這個女性又要兼顧家庭又要這個兼顧工作的這個問題"},{"start":550.185,"end":567.451,"text":"然後女性在這種狀況如果要選擇的話有時候就會讓她女性工作的技能和年資沒有辦法有效累積所以讓女性的勞動者她會去堅持還有做那種part-time以外就變成低薪化堅持化和低薪化"},{"start":568.251,"end":585.485,"text":"如果不離職不能離開場他要去做的工作可能要照顧家庭要照顧要工作他要做兼職然後有可能還會低薪化所以監察院國家人權委員會在家庭照顧責任和婚姻變故對婦女就業和經濟安全的影響當中有提到"},{"start":586.767,"end":596.177,"text":"不少女性為了照顧家庭不得不選擇網拍、外送等時薪制兼職的工作但是缺少底薪的保障收入不穩定導致年老時處於高貧窮的風險"},{"start":603.906,"end":622.653,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面我們的女性勞參率跌下來了25到29歲本來是九成你剛剛講了你看她40到44歲來到78.6%的參與率可是同樣的年齡層我講過一遍一遍又一遍在瑞典在德國"},{"start":624.894,"end":653.155,"text":"40到44歲的女性勞動力的參與率比25到29歲還要更高瑞典是高出7.6%德國是高了4%人家是怎麼做那我如果要這樣講的話其實我有一個建議啦你們的這種身家多一個月的津貼然後說多五天的這個什麼家庭詐是不是用那個小時來計算不如這樣子講 我也獻策"},{"start":654.196,"end":669.711,"text":"如果是經濟安全考量 第一個 你們去大量蓋親子住宅這種親子社會住宅 因為經濟壓力最大 就來自於買房和租房大量的親子住宅 打五折 不是八折的社會住宅這個不是勞動部 這個也不是某一個單位 社福部門能解決這是請全國國家的力量要來做的"},{"start":680.077,"end":703.582,"text":"打五折的親子社會住宅第二一站式服務在裡面公共托育完整所以讓大家在這裡面經濟的壓力降低了公共托育承擔起了這個爸爸媽媽所最擔心的公共托育公共幼兒園全部都進來了"},{"start":704.822,"end":709.404,"text":"還要加上彈性輕職假這樣子讓女性在家庭和職場在經濟和養小孩之間我們不做選擇幼稚才要做選擇政策照顧不周才需要做選擇國家不負責任國家不負責任政府不負責任才要做選擇我們女性叫我們女性生小孩跟工作"},{"start":732.651,"end":749.236,"text":"我不做選擇我兩者通通要那你給我們一戰式的服務親子打五折的親子社會住宅給我們彈性親子假這樣你看這樣有意願可以有想要生育嗎朝初都打五折政府企業在大應該有啦應該有喔你們都不這樣說你們都不這樣說要給內政部來參選"},{"start":758.103,"end":764.188,"text":"不是這樣而已 你來看我們的國發會主委說什麼啦少子女化的原因是什麼少子女化的原因在這裡啦國發會講的 國發會主委講的啦最大的問題是沒有找到理想對象這個新聞我也是最近才知道欸真的很訝異啊 你覺得你可以接受"},{"start":784.997,"end":793.885,"text":"在座的大家包括次長各單位的業務單位台灣小子女化的主要原因是因為沒有找到理想的對象嗎"},{"start":796.974,"end":816.848,"text":"所以我的理解新加坡政府是最近這裡每一年都編預算去找各個民間團體去辦所謂的那個未婚男女的聯誼這個我們支持我們也大量的鼓勵政府可以這麼做可是我們如果討論少子女化的原因你會歸則於最大原因是這個嗎有這麼幼稚嗎好啦再下一個"},{"start":823.11,"end":839.582,"text":"國科委委託了這個找人家來研究啦少子女化問題案對策實證調查報告花了多少錢啊兩個案子都委託台大經濟系去做啦兩個案子都兩千兩百萬加起來四千多萬"},{"start":841.107,"end":859.68,"text":"然後提了一個少子女化問題案對策實證調查分析案報告他說台灣平均年工時2020高於OECD的1742顯示已婚全職者平均一天工作 已婚的喔 全職的喔平均一天要工作九個小時通勤一個小時 十個小時的"},{"start":860.28,"end":876.095,"text":"已婚的女性晚上加班 夜間工作平均1.1個小時男性晚上加班 已婚男性1.85個小時所以25到39歲已婚的人 夜間工時平均要1.6個小時他怎麼陪伴小孩"},{"start":878.797,"end":892.815,"text":"工作壓力 長工時 育嬰假沒有彈性使用上還有性別的差異所以讓女性在婚育過程當中承受較大的職癌中斷的風險而男性因為工作壓力和夜間工時長家庭互動時間不足"},{"start":894.637,"end":917.785,"text":"所以青年會傾向於申請更短期的育嬰假所以我們需要的是這個育嬰假要讓他彈性化而生育後的母親他的勞動參與率跟工資皆明顯下降而且持續時間很長所以這個對男性影響不大 對女性影響很大所以要兼顧家庭所以我有禁慾生育率跟女性就業率的正相關"},{"start":919.145,"end":942.596,"text":"你生育率要提高但是女性的就業率也要提高兩個都要正相關而這樣的有效的政策才能夠讓家長女性勞動率蓄留職場才可以避免制度誤導女性離職去育兒所以我們在講這個事你要看下一頁勞動部"},{"start":944.713,"end":972.78,"text":"不是 國發會國發會提出的政策建議是什麼針對未婚男性 男女啦要建置身份認證的交友平台這個我有點懷疑啊如果年輕 應該問年輕男女民間那麼多 你去參加然後政府也建置這個我們都不反對而且我們認為也可以做 而且應該要做但是會是國家重大的政策嗎"},{"start":975.106,"end":991.098,"text":"針對未婚青年重大的政策是做這樣子嗎然後增加家庭和育兒支持他講到投保薪資上限要拿掉拿更多那這樣子你們的"},{"start":992.419,"end":1017.589,"text":"給父要更多喔所以他認為你們的給父是不夠的然後還有你看怎麼樣增加年輕人願意生小孩的意願放寬家事幫傭移工幫助育兒工作如果要放寬家事移工放寬育兒工作那我們還需要在這裡討論公托還需要在這裡討論這個津貼嗎"},{"start":1021.41,"end":1037.997,"text":"這個有沒有階級化的需求 難怪從國發會 國科會 到勞動部 到政府都一講說我要放寬家事幫傭大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔"},{"start":1052.174,"end":1055.339,"text":"說這些都太橫了啦所以我在講意思是他們下一頁是什麼政策目標下一頁有嗎 沒有了 好"},{"start":1062.375,"end":1084.839,"text":"所以在這裡家事幫庸可以解決男女分工的問題家事幫庸可以解決所有年輕父母不生的問題然後讓他們願意生 但願如此啊說到這都太狠了開4000萬元 研究出來政策給政府的政策是這樣 放寬家事幫庸然後去做一個交友平台"},{"start":1089.929,"end":1111.435,"text":"台大走的然後國發會奉為歸納勞動部放寬家事帮傭奉為歸納這樣子可以解決嗎我要說都不用了我這個不去做政策研究我告訴你我剛才說了 再說一次打五折的 親子社會住宅以戰士的服務社區裡面全面的從0到6歲"},{"start":1114.076,"end":1125.119,"text":"托兒 托育 全面一站式服務然後我剛剛講的育嬰留庭不給雇主麻煩 也不給政府麻煩把它變成放寬到8歲然後以天 甚至以小時為單位可以去請領的彈性親職假這才是正本清源啦 別說那麼多啦"},{"start":1139.581,"end":1156.931,"text":"經濟問題要改觀住宿的問題要可進性高要可負擔性打五折的社會住宅啦就是這樣子這樣可以了嗎我們那個關於那個迂流艇還有家庭照顧架更彈性化的方向我們現在全部都在研議中"},{"start":1158.49,"end":1180.912,"text":"你這個幾年一個月沒好啊幾年一個月沒好啊幾年一個月九十萬人跟我們兩萬人看得到吃得到其他八十幾萬人看不到了也不會贏用不到了所以不要那種那一種都是就都照顧你們就是我也不曉得是什麼一回事好啦不說了謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1301,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（12時3分）是不是請國發會及勞動部？好吧！暫時就這樣子。"],["主席：謝處長。"],["林委員淑芬：國發會派副主委過來，連副主委都還要請假，由此可知是多不重視啊！","為什麼今天我們要談少子女化的議題，因為臺灣老化的速度太快，已經進入超高齡社會，65歲以上的人口占了20%。老化太快並不是因為平均壽命大幅提高許多，形成超高齡社會有一個原因是突然間大家的壽命都延長許多、增加許多，要不然就是總生育率下降得太快，而我們就是總生育率下降得太快，並不是平均壽命提高很多。這是很重要的，因為全世界超高齡社會的樣態很多，而我們與日本大概就是總生育率下降得太快的類型，成為全世界的先行者，我們有可能會找不到該如何因應的策略。同時面臨少子女化及超高齡社會的衝擊，政府也提出很多因應的對策，現在要研議將育嬰留職停薪津貼改為6加1個月，你們預估領6個月的大概有2萬1,000人，因此，再增加1個月就是增加6億元，對不對？"],["李次長健鴻：對，沒有錯。"],["林委員淑芬：我問你，有資格請領育嬰留職停薪津貼的有多少人？"],["李次長健鴻：報告委員，去年的數字是九萬三千多人。"],["林委員淑芬：9萬？不是3歲以下嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：去年實際有來請領的。"],["林委員淑芬：3歲以下平均大約也有四、五十萬人吧？"],["李次長健鴻：是。"],["林委員淑芬：四、五十萬個家庭有3歲以下的小孩，以夫妻2個人來算的話，大概就是90萬人具有資格，而你說去年來請領的人次是9萬左右，這樣也只有十分之一。現在你說來請領的人，有的只領1個月、有的領3個月、有的領4個月，領滿6個月的只有2萬1,000人，所以你就推估有領滿的就多給1個月，這個做法照顧了2萬1,000人左右，但是全部的總需求，理論上，都有需求、都去申請的話，應該是90萬人啊！"],["李次長健鴻：根據去年勞保發出的生育給付，實際上有八萬一千八百多人，如果父母都來領的話，乘以2就是16萬人。"],["林委員淑芬：3歲，所以有3個啊！八萬多？去年生了十三萬多的小孩啊！"],["李次長健鴻：請領生育給付的人數是八萬一千多人。"],["林委員淑芬：有的人不請領並不代表沒有育嬰留停的需求啊！"],["李次長健鴻：是。"],["林委員淑芬：不請領生育給付有可能不是受僱者或是其他。"],["李次長健鴻：沒有錯。"],["林委員淑芬：過去3歲以下的總嬰兒數、總小孩數大概是四、五十萬啊！不要再講到那裡去，多浪費我的時間。四、五十萬個家庭的父母加起來就是90萬人，所以有90萬人具資格請領，但事實上請領滿6個月的是2萬1,000人，所以我要講的是你們育嬰留停多領1個月的這個策略、這個政策並沒有擴大照顧更多有需求的人，你們只是便宜行事，其實有能力請領滿6個月的本來就是條件比較好的人，現在這樣做只是讓他們又多領1個月。最重要的是有90萬人為什麼不敢請滿、不敢請領？假不敢請滿，也不敢來請領錢、也不敢請滿，這個才是重要的，這個才是問題啊！延長育嬰留停可以提升生育的意願嗎？或者多發放1個月津貼有辦法提升生育的意願嗎？不要忘了，2024年的死亡人數是20萬人，小孩的出生人數只有13萬人，minus、負的7萬人耶！再繼續負下去，臺灣會很嚴重喔！持續五年的負成長，而且2024年是出生人數最低的一年。","你們國科會自己也做了一個研究，少子女化問題與對策實證調查分析報告，受訪的人都說經濟考量是影響生育決策最重要的因素，而且多數表示生育補助及育兒津貼對生育意願的影響是有限的，可想而知，問題還是在於經濟。為什麼是經濟？剛剛次長幫我們上了一堂課，大家都需要工作、女性也需要工作，我不想依賴先生，事實上，先生也不見得能夠依賴。大家的家庭都需要雙薪收入，所以絕對不能離職、不能少一份工作。"],["李次長健鴻：沒有錯。"],["林委員淑芬：在這樣的狀況下，你想像該如何留住女性勞動力？因為他不能離職，卻又要他生小孩，在家庭與工作之間不能二擇一，同時都要兼顧。這個就是勞動部過去所想像的，本來是鼓勵大家留職停薪，為了育兒暫時離開職場，但是大家都知道暫時離開職場要再重返的門檻很高啊！障礙很多啦！所以現在才一直在轉換，變成能不能一邊育兒、一邊工作，不要中斷工作，也不要中斷年資，然後在工作和育兒之間得到平衡。"],["李次長健鴻：是。"],["林委員淑芬：我們一直在講，要普及公共化托育設施，要放寬家庭照顧假，把育嬰變成彈性親職假，因為大家都知道錢是最重要的。第二、小孩不是生出來就自己長大，大家都知道要陪伴，所以工作時數能不能陪伴也很重要。大家都知道，然後從保母那裡，3歲送到學校、幼兒園就開始每天感冒了，3歲到6歲每天都感冒，每天都要去顧，所以這個要有假，假怎麼來？不可能雇主跟勞工之間……需要這麼多假，你們願意給嗎？","所以我們一直在講，把育嬰假變成彈性親職假。生育和養育補貼很重要沒有錯，但是要營造一個比這兩樣還更友善的條件，人家才願意生養，就是友善的生兒育女環境。你現在提供了現金補貼，當然是看得到你重視，可是你們都挑最便宜行事的，給錢就沒了，不願意多做一點，其他各種優惠和環境、配套也都要進來。","國科會自己也有委託研究案，講少子女化問題與對策實證調查分析報告顯示，育嬰假的改革，雖然有顯著增加多生一胎的機率，但是效果集中在所得較低的人身上，對高所得的人來講毫無影響。其中一個原因就是因為你們投保薪資4萬5,800，天花板在那裡，所以投保薪資上限還是很低，沒有誘因。主計總處2002年有統計，照顧未滿12歲子女而離職的，女性的離職風險是男性的2.7倍，育嬰留停和津貼制度的設計，還是沒有辦法解決女性要兼顧家庭又要兼顧工作的問題。女性在這種狀況，如果要選擇的話，有時候就會讓女性的工作技能和年資沒有辦法有效累積，讓女性的勞動者會選擇去兼職或part-time，變成兼職化和低薪化，如果不離職，不能離開職場，他可能要照顧家庭又要工作，他要做兼職，然後有可能還會低薪化。","監察院在「國家人權委員會家庭照顧責任及婚姻變故對婦女就業與經濟安全的影響」當中也有提到，不少女性為了照顧家庭，不得不選擇網拍、外送等時薪制、兼職的工作，但是缺少底薪的保障，收入不穩定，導致年老時處於高貧窮的風險。所以在這種狀況下，我們的女性勞參率跌下來了，25歲到29歲本來是九成，你剛剛講了，你看40歲到44歲來到78.6%的參與率。可是同樣的年齡層，我講過一遍又一遍，在瑞典和德國，40歲到44歲的女性勞動參與率，比25歲到29歲還要更高，瑞典是高出7.6%，德國高了4%，人家是怎麼做的？","其實我有個建議，你們這種多1個月的津貼，然後多5天的什麼家庭照顧假用小時來計算。不如這樣，我也獻策，如果是經濟安全考量，第一、你們去大量蓋親子住宅，因為經濟壓力最大的就來自於買房和租房，大量的親子住宅，打五折！不是8折的社會住宅，這不是勞動部也不是某一個單位的社福部門能解決的，這是傾全部國家的力量要來做的，打五折的親子社會住宅。","第二、一站式服務，在裡面公共托育完整，讓大家經濟的壓力降低了，公共托育承擔起爸爸媽媽最擔心的部分。公共托育、公共幼兒園全部都進來，還要加上彈性親職假，讓女性在家庭和職場，在經濟和養小孩之間，我們不做選擇，幼稚才要做選擇，政策照顧不周才需要做選擇，國家不負責任、政府不負責任才要做選擇，叫我們女性生小孩跟工作，我不做選擇，兩者統統要，那你給我們一站式的服務，打五折的親子社會住宅，給我們彈性親職假，你看這樣大家會不會比較有意願生？租屋都打五折，政府蓋給你住。"],["李次長健鴻：應該有啦！"],["林委員淑芬：應該有喔！你怎麼都沒這樣說？"],["李次長健鴻：這要跟內政部商量。"],["林委員淑芬：不是只有這樣，你來看我們國發會主委說什麼，少子女化的原因是什麼？少子女化的原因在這裡啦！國發會主委講的，最大的問題是沒有找到理想對象。這個新聞我也是最近才知道，真的很訝異，你覺得你可以接受？在座的大家，包括次長、各單位的業務單位，臺灣少子女化的主要原因是因為沒有找到理想的對象嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：據我理解，新加坡政府最近這幾年每年都編預算，找各個民間團體辦未婚男女的聯誼。"],["林委員淑芬：這個我們支持，我們也大力鼓勵政府可以這麼做，可是我們如果討論少子女化的原因，你會歸責最大原因是這個嗎？有這麼幼稚嗎？","再來，國科會委託了這個研究，少子女化問題和對策實證調查報告，花了多少錢？兩個案子都委託臺大經濟系去做，兩個案子都2,200萬，加起來四千多萬。然後提了個少子女化問題和對策實證調查分析報告，表示臺灣平均年工時2,020，高於OECD的1,742，顯示已婚全職者平均一天要工作9小時，通勤1小時，這樣就10個小時了。已婚女性晚上加班，夜間工作平均1.1小時，已婚男性1.85小時。所以25歲到39歲已婚的人，夜間工時平均要1.6個小時，他怎麼陪伴小孩？工作壓力、長工時，育嬰假沒有彈性，在使用上還有性別的差異，讓女性在婚育過程中承受較大的職涯中斷風險；而男性因為工作壓力和夜間工時長，家庭互動時間不足，導致青年會傾向申請更短期的育嬰假，所以我們需要的是，這個育嬰假要讓他彈性化。而生育後的母親，其勞動參與率跟工資明顯下降，而且持續時間很長，所以這個對男性影響不大，對女性影響很大。若要兼顧家庭，唯有建立生育率跟女性就業率的正相關，生育率要提高，女性的就業率也要提高，兩者都要正相關，這樣的有效政策才能讓家長、女性勞動力續留職場，避免制度誤導女性離職育兒。","有關這個議題，國發會提出的政策建議是什麼？第一、針對未婚男女，要建置身分認證的交友平臺。這個我有點懷疑，應該去問年輕男女，這個民間那麼多，你去參加，然後政府也建置，這個我們都不反對，我們也認為可以做，而且應該要做，但這會是國家的重大政策嗎？針對未婚青年，重大的政策是這樣做的嗎？第二、增加家庭和育兒支持，他有講到投保薪資上限要拿掉、拿更多，這樣子你們的給付要更多喔！所以他認為你們的給付是不夠的。","還有如何增加年輕人生小孩的意願？國發會說要放寬家事幫傭移工，幫助育兒工作。如果要放寬家事移工、放寬育兒工作，那我們還需要在這裡討論公托，還需要在這裡討論津貼嗎？這有沒有階級化的需求？難怪從國發會、國科會到勞動部，政府都一致說要放寬家事幫傭，所有年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔？年輕人都有能力請家事幫傭嗎？這是你們的主要核心政策目標嗎？我不知道你們是不食人間煙火，還是專門為有經濟能力的人，你的政策只服務有經濟能力的人嗎？談這些都太遙遠了。所以家事幫傭可以解決男女分工的問題，家事幫傭可以解決所有年輕父母不生的問題，然後讓他們願意生？但願如此啦！他們講的這些都太誇張了，花四千多萬做的研究、獻策給政府的政策是這樣，放寬家事幫傭，然後去做一個交友平臺，還臺大做的，然後國發會奉為圭臬，勞動部也把放寬家事幫傭奉為圭臬，這樣子可以解決嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：報告委員……"],["林委員淑芬：我跟你講都不用啦！我沒去做政策研究，剛剛講的我再說一次，打5折的親子社會住宅，一站式的服務，社區裡從0歲到6歲，托兒、托育全面一站式服務；然後我剛剛講的育嬰留停，不給雇主麻煩，也不給政府麻煩，把他變成放寬到8歲，以天甚至以小時為單位可以請領的彈性親職假，這才是正本清源，不用講那麼多啦！經濟問題要解決，住宿的問題要可近性高、要可負擔性，打5折的社會住宅啦！就是這樣子，這樣可以嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：委員，關於育嬰留停和家庭照顧假更彈性化的方向，我們現在全部都在研議中。"],["林委員淑芬：你們這個多領1個月沒用啊！多領1個月，90萬人只有2萬人看得到、吃得到，其他八十幾萬人看不到，也不會用、用不到。所以不要那種都照顧……你們就是……我也不曉得是怎麼一回事，好啦！不說了。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員。","接續我們請王正旭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-4","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","黃秀芳","劉建國","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","張雅琳","楊曜","李坤城","麥玉珍","陳瑩","鄭正鈐","黃捷","林德福","陳培瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、國家發展委員會、教育部、法務部針對「少子女化衝擊，如何營造\n友善托育環境」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00001"}}}