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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 539.377, \"end\": 539.477, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 539.477, \"end\": 539.618, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 539.618, \"end\": 539.778, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 539.778, \"end\": 539.938, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 539.938, \"end\": 540.138, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 540.138, \"end\": 540.739, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 540.739, \"end\": 541.22, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"聯\"}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 541.22, \"end\": 541.52, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 541.52, \"end\": 541.66, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"敘\"}, {\"word\": \"述\", \"start\": 541.66, \"end\": 541.68, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 542.922, \"end\": 569.52, \"text\": \"那聯合報敘述如果你要講退報運動他有好幾次退報運動那為什麼你就只講這一次咧就偏頗啊就人家也曾經有挺雷震啊 堅守第四權被退報你不講你只講說因為他有刊登過什麼中共的某一個人的談話所以被退報 我覺得太偏頗了啊好不好 歷史博物館既然是世界認識台灣的窗口不能偏頗 這個第一個我希望你們可以調整啦\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 542.922, \"end\": 543.042, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"聯\"}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 543.042, \"end\": 543.462, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"敘\"}, {\"word\": \"述\", \"start\": 543.462, \"end\": 543.603, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 543.603, \"end\": 543.743, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 543.743, \"end\": 543.803, \"score\": 0.65}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 543.803, \"end\": 543.903, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 543.903, \"end\": 544.243, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"退\", \"start\": 544.243, \"end\": 544.823, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 544.823, \"end\": 544.943, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 544.943, \"end\": 545.024, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 545.024, \"end\": 545.324, 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00:00:09,523\n你好請文化部長好有請部長廖委員你好部長好我跟你請教一下這個跟你請教一下國立台灣歷史博物館的問題因為我看到業務報告也說台灣歷史博物館要擴建嘛那台灣歷史博物館它的主要的設立的宗旨呢是文化部要辦理台灣歷史與民俗文化相關\n\n2\n00:00:36,141 --> 00:01:00,727\n文物史料的收集整理保存跟研究而且要展示跟推廣教育剛剛有提到說你們業務報告裡面也有講說現在要啟動第二期的擴建計畫114年如果能夠獲行這份核定預計119年完工開放營域要成為世界認識台灣的首要窗口所以他的目標是很宏大的是首要窗口就是說\n\n3\n00:01:01,807 --> 00:01:20,793\n除了台灣之外其他國家想要認識台灣都可以透過我們的國立台灣歷史博物館這個國立台灣歷史博物館非常重要那我就就幾個面向來跟這個部長討論第一個我想問我們在國立台灣歷史博物館的典藏裡面我們有看到\n\n4\n00:01:23,079 --> 00:01:37,124\n這個范雲他在2016年競選的文宣當時他去攻擊他的對手蔣乃馨提了三個問題說你為什麼都不回答然後這個文宣呢\n\n5\n00:01:38,384 --> 00:01:59,869\n這個當然描述上是非常的用正面的語氣啦說文宣正面質問對手國民黨江乃馨任立委是做的總統決定背後呢論述人民為何應該要投給范雲並有小野於蔣勳為其背書我有提到部長我想問一下這個為什麼歷史博物館會典藏這個東西他的考慮是什麼\n\n6\n00:02:01,175 --> 00:02:29,767\n你剛才講這一段我並不知道但是也不是因為我是文化部長之後才收藏這個東西我覺得也不是啦但是據我了解我是問說現在因為我們這個東西是世界認識台灣的首要創作我想它很簡單就是台灣從戒嚴以後走入民主那個民主運動是一個蠻重要的那個過程然後范雲假如各位沒有忘記的話當年是野百合\n\n7\n00:02:30,487 --> 00:02:50,793\n的領袖他是在野百合佔領這個中正紀念堂的領袖所以他後來出來從政他的歷史後來前面被國民黨監視的歷史所以你的意思是說因為范雲特別重要啦所以就有點藏了他的文宣去質問蔣乃馨而且是2016年他的第一次選舉那我們來看下一個\n\n8\n00:02:56,515 --> 00:03:11,062\n這個是蔡英文總統跟陳建仁副總統可能第一次出來選總統的文宣那我想請教一下因為這個文宣你們在那個歷史博物館裡面典藏了兩份那為什麼有的文宣你是典藏兩份啊\n\n9\n00:03:13,292 --> 00:03:33,511\n為什麼會點藏兩份?目的是什麼?這點你也不清楚我必須承認我不知道不知道那今天文化部有沒有有沒有知道的人可以來幫部長回答一下今天我們有代表來我也好我是台灣歷史博物館副館長莊佩華那我們的這些文物其實我們有因應選舉的話去進行當代的收藏\n\n10\n00:03:34,031 --> 00:03:57,236\n那就是在經過一個委員的搜審過程來確認這些文物是否入場那有些文物他可能會在他的背後可能有他不同的一個脈絡所以這個部分有兩份的部分我可以再做確認然後再跟委員做一個比較完整的報告所以你也不曉得嘛但是他就是有兩份啊他就有兩份好我們進去看因為我看了蠻多的好這個是蔡英文點亮台灣總統競選宣傳旗\n\n11\n00:03:59,716 --> 00:04:19,888\n有兩隻那我這個部分是想請教一下文物你們收藏之後會說要保存嘛那保存會維護嗎比如說那個棋子如果說有破損那就是讓他繼續破損還是說你們其實是有編人力資品維護人力去修復狀況是怎麼樣\n\n12\n00:04:22,264 --> 00:04:44,400\n我想用我的經驗來看它這是跟一般的文物是一樣要保存的但是我得跟委員講一下我的想法就是譬如說部長部長我時間有限你直接回答我問題就好因為我現在是問說因為這個東西很重要嘛它是世界認識台灣的首要窗口啊所以我們當然保存東西要好好保存我現在只是問我的問題很簡單\n\n13\n00:04:45,420 --> 00:05:06,999\n就是他如果有破損會不會有修復當然要修復有會修復因為你簡化了蔡英文跟簡化了這個我問你一個問題像我去拜訪林義雄他是一個受害者欸這不是你在質詢我啦我的問題很簡單啦問題只是說你會不會修復而已嘛他家裡擺了一大堆民主運動的資料全部是拒絕的棋子部長部長不要岔題啦我問的是說\n\n14\n00:05:09,861 --> 00:05:32,767\n因為我的問題很簡單部長我到現在為止都沒有在我只是在詢問我想知道說保存我沒有說不能保存這個我現在只是問說保存這個有沒有修復機制你不要防禦心這麼強我當然小心我只是問有沒有修復機制因為這個歷史博物館是認識台灣首要窗口\n\n15\n00:05:33,507 --> 00:05:52,014\n我沒有不讓你做這個事我是問說你有沒有好好保存當然要好好保存好要保存嘛對吧那所以你們有編制多少人力在做維護的這件事情後面那位多少人留言對啊比如說織品如果有損壞或者是有一些書面印刷有損壞或什麼你們現在的編制修復的人力是怎樣\n\n16\n00:05:52,714 --> 00:06:20,351\n跟我們報告那由於整個編制的問題那台思博目前有兩位修復師那我們就是文物進場之前會先進行整吃那這部分會委外來進行委外那個專業的廠商來進行委外來進行就對了是用委外的方式對那我們內部有兩位修復師兩位修復師他是修復哪一類的因為不同文物會有不同的修復技巧有一位是以紙質為主然後一位是以木質為主然後其他就委外嘛好下一頁他們也都熟\n\n17\n00:06:20,831 --> 00:06:39,406\n下一頁這個聯合報齁一樣齁這個聯合報有一他的頭版喔2012年的1月10號點藏也是點藏兩份然後這個問題剛剛沒有辦法回答嘛因為你不知道說為什麼有的是點藏兩份以上嘛但是這個聯合報的點藏有兩個問題我想要就教一下部長齁第一個\n\n18\n00:06:40,711 --> 00:07:07,777\n他這邊在這個文物的描述的部分啊特別提到主要經營人是承認中國國民黨中央常務委員的王剃無另外聯合報在1992年曾因刊登中共中央政治局常務委員的李瑞環的談話而引發退報運動那當然你們的講法一定會是說對啊他就是客觀描述啊他的確是創辦人是誰啊然後他的確這個有退報運動可是我這邊好奇的是啊\n\n19\n00:07:09,409 --> 00:07:24,473\n聯合報實際上他退報運動總共有三次我們來看一下不是只有那一次李瑞環的比如說1960年他們因為挺雷震堅守第四權所以曾經引發時任總統蔣中正不悅軍方發起退報運動但是聯合報能貫徹正派辦報\n\n20\n00:07:30,915 --> 00:07:50,205\n就是說他退報其實有好幾次但是你們在文物的描述我們看上一頁文物的描述上專門把這個他1992年刊載中共中央政治局常委李瑞環談話引發退報就把它寫在那邊好像聯合報就只有這一支退報運動而且他還是因為刊載了中共的言論的關係被退報\n\n21\n00:07:52,079 --> 00:08:16,785\n我覺得是有偏頗啦這是第一個問題等一下一起回答第二個問題是因為這個歷史博物館他可以把典藏的文物做授權嘛那現在你典藏了聯合報的的這個報紙那人家也可以來取得授權可是理論上來講聯合報的東西應該是屬於他個人的智慧財產權啊那歷史博物館為什麼會可以把別人的智慧財產權做授權的動作呢兩個問題\n\n22\n00:08:24,057 --> 00:08:45,545\n跟委員報告就是說有關文物的部分我們會就當下那個研究員他們就會去做相關的資料的一個手整然後經過審議委員來做確認內容那如果說這個內容他因為當時候的內容如果不是很就是完整的話他只會就當下的那個事件來做處理那如果說未來我們再進行更深入的研究的時候我們會再把相關的詮釋資料來進行補助\n\n23\n00:08:47,720 --> 00:09:01,680\n你現在你是下面對聯合報做敘述啦其實你這個文物典藏你不是描述文物本身那個文物本身是2012年的1月10號的內容嘛但是你現在下面紅字我標出來的部分其實是你們對於聯合報的敘述\n\n24\n00:09:02,922 --> 00:09:29,520\n那聯合報敘述如果你要講退報運動他有好幾次退報運動那為什麼你就只講這一次咧就偏頗啊就人家也曾經有挺雷震啊堅守第四權被退報你不講你只講說因為他有刊登過什麼中共的某一個人的談話所以被退報我覺得太偏頗了啊好不好歷史博物館既然是世界認識台灣的窗口不能偏頗這個第一個我希望你們可以調整啦\n\n25\n00:09:30,140 --> 00:09:32,869\n那這可以吧好謝謝委員我們還有補助相關的請問部長你認同嗎是部長\n\n26\n00:09:36,451 --> 00:09:43,115\n我不但認同還非常感謝你對聯合報這麼了解如果就歷史來講這三個時間都對我們會把它補起來而且你要知道嗎你把它補起來之後就會知道台灣的當初戒嚴是報競聯合報中國時報可以賣到一百萬份後來漸漸報競開放之後報紙變很多之後它的賣量變少因為我持續時間有些你講故事都講太久其實我很喜歡聽有一天\n\n27\n00:10:04,748 --> 00:10:30,274\n比如說我們可以請你喝個下午茶你慢慢講給我聽但是因為我們資訊時間很有限啦我們就針對重點好不好好那所以這個部分你們認同嗎不能有偏頗啦好不好第二個授權的部分為什麼可以代替聯合報去授權呢跟我們報告如果說那個出授權的原始人還是存去的話我們不會主動做這個授權我們只有做物的比如說要借展才會有授權那這個部分如果說它是涉及內容的引用的話都還是要回到原來比如說\n\n28\n00:10:31,354 --> 00:10:49,244\n所以你們如果有智慧財產權你們不會做授權好不好這是你講的再來還有這個是民進黨這個建黨週年紀念表總共典藏了七支你看有登錄七個登錄號為什麼這個表是特別厲害還是怎樣我是好奇啦就是典藏了七支是為什麼\n\n29\n00:10:51,206 --> 00:11:20,599\n跟委員報告好我現在沒有在質疑說你們是不是只弄民進黨的東西沒有喔我現在只是好奇說這個錶是不是厲害的地方在哪裡典藏了七支海史博它是新往近成立的一個博物館那我們有在積極地進行當代的收藏那很多其實是民間的一個捐贈那我們這邊的話其實會先就捐贈的物件先做一些初步的一個審議那這個部分我也是需要再做確認就是說也許它因為剛才有報告就是說每個文物它其實有不同的一個脈絡跟後面的一些\n\n30\n00:11:20,939 --> 00:11:46,713\n所以我必須要再確認一下說當初這個路長你再確認好不好看起來乍看之下你也覺得很怪但是我不為難你啦你再去確認那一個東西好然後再來就是我覺得這個歷史播放好像對於這個選舉的東西特別有興趣連那個2000年沉水扁的礦泉水都有典藏然後還有宣傳手機架鑰匙圈旗子布條等等這些東西\n\n31\n00:11:48,711 --> 00:12:15,878\n這個選舉小物為什麼可以成為國家級典藏品因為我你到時候要一併說明沒有沒有好先一併說明各位國民報告就是因應整個現在世界的潮流就是當代議題的一個收藏包括這些選舉或是像疫情這些等等都是會有一個初步的收藏那我們現在管內有制定一個相關的就是一個分流的制度當代典藏跟因為當初剛開始的時候制度還不完善你說剛開始的時候因為人家只要捐贈你就收是不是\n\n32\n00:12:16,158 --> 00:12:33,954\n我們還是有經過審議那當時候因為有一開始的話經過審議那會納入文物但是我們現在我們現在就是問說這個審議為什麼會這樣啊它的標準是什麼啊對就是其實我們是因應整個世紀潮流現在針對這些重要的議題其實都有當代搜查OKOK好那繼續但你剛剛講說那都很重要嘛像剛剛那個部長講說飯雲為什麼會被收藏因為他太重要了\n\n33\n00:12:39,139 --> 00:12:55,072\n那我想有參選過總統的人的東西應該也蠻重要吧可是我們去搜尋關鍵詞韓國瑜跟柯文哲就沒有任何的文物典藏他的一個旗子他的一個面子或他的一個什麼小物就通通都沒有啊所以這標準很怪啊\n\n34\n00:12:56,483 --> 00:13:15,262\n這標準很怪啊跟委員報告就是這些選舉物件主要都是來自於民間的捐贈那所以其實民間如果有捐贈那我們經過搜審之後所以意思是說因為韓粉跟柯粉沒有去捐贈所以沒有然後只要有捐贈不管你捐贈一支兩支三支四支甚至七支你都收\n\n35\n00:13:15,885 --> 00:13:24,427\n我們還是有經過嚴謹的一個搜尋嚴謹那為什麼要棲織你還是回答不出來了剛才有稍微看一下我認為應該是說有捐贈還是要做一個篩選好不好那再來剛剛那個問題剛剛如果說你剛剛沒有辦法回答的麻煩寫一個針對我剛剛的問題寫個報告給我最後很快因為部長應該知道我們很關心打黃牛這件事情本來我去年是有提案\n\n36\n00:13:45,751 --> 00:14:01,125\n因為打荒的辦公室我認為成效不彰啦他那個時候只有裁發了七十幾件變了兩千多萬只有裁發七十幾件覺得成效不彰反正要提案刪除但後來因為你們也有溝通嘛覺得會好好做這個事情所以我們也沒有這個預算沒有處理但是網路上就在帶風向\n\n37\n00:14:02,226 --> 00:14:22,956\n說好像我們去監督這個預算就是支持黃牛說什麼以後大家有買到黃牛票就大家來找我我覺得這個台灣這個網路實在是太誇張了完全沒有就事論事空間從頭到尾我們在這邊就是把關預算認為這個導黃牛辦公室沒有積極扮演好它的成效那現在最新的資料是說才發了145件那部長你自己滿意嗎\n\n38\n00:14:27,415 --> 00:14:40,190\n我說不算滿意或者不滿意因為環遊的問題大家都知道在文創法裡面我們沒有直接可以限制票的買賣我們唯一做的就是\n\n39\n00:14:41,693 --> 00:14:55,704\n在最近做了一件比較有進步的事情就是約這六都的負責大場館的這種的人來開會希望他們在辦法上鼓勵實名制那這效果非常好文化部會補助經費\n\n40\n00:14:58,152 --> 00:15:23,785\n補助那些願意用實名制來辦演唱會的團體結果效果果然環流就下降像這種就是一個我們在法律上沒有不准他用這種方式販售環流的一個法我們只能用去檢舉那你也知道檢舉的過程非常繁複檢舉到之後我們整理完叫警政單位去抓他這個過程是很繁複的\n\n41\n00:15:24,545 --> 00:15:47,896\n那對於一個文化部來講他去管理黃牛這件事情是非常吃力的好那個部長這個加油啦好不好大家都很對黃牛深惡痛絕啦而且預算給你們的我覺得就要不是說發包出去啦還是要盯一下啦希望他們可以積極的把黃牛的杜絕好不好讓大家可以不要多花冤枉錢好謝謝謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6141\t9523\t你好 請文化部長好 有請部長廖委員你好部長好 我跟你請教一下這個跟你請教一下國立台灣歷史博物館的問題因為我看到業務報告也說台灣歷史博物館要擴建嘛那台灣歷史博物館它的主要的設立的宗旨呢是文化部要辦理台灣歷史與民俗文化相關\n36141\t60727\t文物史料的收集整理保存跟研究而且要展示跟推廣教育剛剛有提到說你們業務報告裡面也有講說現在要啟動第二期的擴建計畫114年如果能夠獲行這份核定預計119年完工開放營域要成為世界認識台灣的首要窗口所以他的目標是很宏大的是首要窗口就是說\n61807\t80793\t除了台灣之外其他國家想要認識台灣都可以透過我們的國立台灣歷史博物館這個國立台灣歷史博物館非常重要那我就就幾個面向來跟這個部長討論第一個我想問我們在國立台灣歷史博物館的典藏裡面我們有看到\n83079\t97124\t這個范雲他在2016年競選的文宣當時他去攻擊他的對手蔣乃馨提了三個問題說你為什麼都不回答然後這個文宣呢\n98384\t119869\t這個當然描述上是非常的用正面的語氣啦說文宣正面質問對手國民黨江乃馨任立委是做的總統決定背後呢論述人民為何應該要投給范雲並有小野於蔣勳為其背書我有提到部長我想問一下這個為什麼歷史博物館會典藏這個東西他的考慮是什麼\n121175\t149767\t你剛才講這一段我並不知道但是也不是因為我是文化部長之後才收藏這個東西我覺得也不是啦但是據我了解我是問說現在因為我們這個東西是世界認識台灣的首要創作我想它很簡單就是台灣從戒嚴以後走入民主那個民主運動是一個蠻重要的那個過程然後范雲假如各位沒有忘記的話當年是野百合\n150487\t170793\t的領袖他是在野百合佔領這個中正紀念堂的領袖所以他後來出來從政他的歷史後來前面被國民黨監視的歷史所以你的意思是說因為范雲特別重要啦所以就有點藏了他的文宣去質問蔣乃馨 而且是2016年他的第一次選舉那我們來看下一個\n176515\t191062\t這個是蔡英文總統跟陳建仁副總統可能第一次出來選總統的文宣那我想請教一下因為這個文宣你們在那個歷史博物館裡面典藏了兩份那為什麼有的文宣你是典藏兩份啊\n193292\t213511\t為什麼會點藏兩份?目的是什麼?這點你也不清楚我必須承認我不知道不知道那今天文化部有沒有有沒有知道的人可以來幫部長回答一下今天我們有代表來我也好我是台灣歷史博物館副館長莊佩華那我們的這些文物其實我們有因應選舉的話去進行當代的收藏\n214031\t237236\t那就是在經過一個委員的搜審過程來確認這些文物是否入場那有些文物他可能會在他的背後可能有他不同的一個脈絡所以這個部分有兩份的部分我可以再做確認然後再跟委員做一個比較完整的報告所以你也不曉得嘛但是他就是有兩份啊他就有兩份好我們進去看因為我看了蠻多的好這個是蔡英文點亮台灣總統競選宣傳旗\n239716\t259888\t有兩隻那我這個部分是想請教一下文物你們收藏之後會說要保存嘛那保存會維護嗎比如說那個棋子如果說有破損那就是讓他繼續破損還是說你們其實是有編人力資品維護人力去修復狀況是怎麼樣\n262264\t284400\t我想用我的經驗來看它這是跟一般的文物是一樣要保存的但是我得跟委員講一下我的想法就是譬如說部長部長我時間有限你直接回答我問題就好因為我現在是問說因為這個東西很重要嘛它是世界認識台灣的首要窗口啊所以我們當然保存東西要好好保存我現在只是問我的問題很簡單\n285420\t306999\t就是他如果有破損會不會有修復當然要修復有會修復因為你簡化了蔡英文跟簡化了這個我問你一個問題像我去拜訪林義雄他是一個受害者欸這不是你在質詢我啦我的問題很簡單啦問題只是說你會不會修復而已嘛他家裡擺了一大堆民主運動的資料全部是拒絕的棋子部長部長不要岔題啦我問的是說\n309861\t332767\t因為我的問題很簡單部長我到現在為止都沒有在我只是在詢問我想知道說保存我沒有說不能保存這個我現在只是問說保存這個有沒有修復機制你不要防禦心這麼強我當然小心我只是問有沒有修復機制因為這個歷史博物館是認識台灣首要窗口\n333507\t352014\t我沒有不讓你做這個事我是問說你有沒有好好保存當然要好好保存好要保存嘛 對吧那所以你們有編制多少人力在做維護的這件事情後面那位多少人留言 對啊比如說織品如果有損壞或者是有一些書面印刷有損壞或什麼你們現在的編制修復的人力是怎樣\n352714\t380351\t跟我們報告那由於整個編制的問題那台思博目前有兩位修復師那我們就是文物進場之前會先進行整吃那這部分會委外來進行委外那個專業的廠商來進行委外來進行就對了是用委外的方式對那我們內部有兩位修復師兩位修復師他是修復哪一類的因為不同文物會有不同的修復技巧有一位是以紙質為主然後一位是以木質為主然後其他就委外嘛好下一頁他們也都熟\n380831\t399406\t下一頁這個聯合報齁一樣齁這個聯合報有一他的頭版喔2012年的1月10號點藏也是點藏兩份然後這個問題剛剛沒有辦法回答嘛因為你不知道說為什麼有的是點藏兩份以上嘛但是這個聯合報的點藏有兩個問題我想要就教一下部長齁第一個\n400711\t427777\t他這邊在這個文物的描述的部分啊特別提到主要經營人是承認中國國民黨中央常務委員的王剃無另外聯合報在1992年曾因刊登中共中央政治局常務委員的李瑞環的談話而引發退報運動那當然你們的講法一定會是說對啊他就是客觀描述啊他的確是創辦人是誰啊然後他的確這個有退報運動可是我這邊好奇的是啊\n429409\t444473\t聯合報實際上他退報運動總共有三次我們來看一下不是只有那一次李瑞環的比如說1960年他們因為挺雷震堅守第四權所以曾經引發時任總統蔣中正不悅軍方發起退報運動但是聯合報能貫徹正派辦報\n450915\t470205\t就是說他退報其實有好幾次但是你們在文物的描述我們看上一頁文物的描述上專門把這個他1992年刊載中共中央政治局常委李瑞環談話引發退報就把它寫在那邊好像聯合報就只有這一支退報運動而且他還是因為刊載了中共的言論的關係被退報\n472079\t496785\t我覺得是有偏頗啦這是第一個問題等一下一起回答第二個問題是因為這個歷史博物館他可以把典藏的文物做授權嘛那現在你典藏了聯合報的的這個報紙那人家也可以來取得授權可是理論上來講聯合報的東西應該是屬於他個人的智慧財產權啊那歷史博物館為什麼會可以把別人的智慧財產權做授權的動作呢兩個問題\n504057\t525545\t跟委員報告就是說有關文物的部分我們會就當下那個研究員他們就會去做相關的資料的一個手整然後經過審議委員來做確認內容那如果說這個內容他因為當時候的內容如果不是很就是完整的話他只會就當下的那個事件來做處理那如果說未來我們再進行更深入的研究的時候我們會再把相關的詮釋資料來進行補助\n527720\t541680\t你現在你是下面對聯合報做敘述啦其實你這個文物典藏你不是描述文物本身那個文物本身是2012年的1月10號的內容嘛但是你現在下面紅字我標出來的部分其實是你們對於聯合報的敘述\n542922\t569520\t那聯合報敘述如果你要講退報運動他有好幾次退報運動那為什麼你就只講這一次咧就偏頗啊就人家也曾經有挺雷震啊 堅守第四權被退報你不講你只講說因為他有刊登過什麼中共的某一個人的談話所以被退報 我覺得太偏頗了啊好不好 歷史博物館既然是世界認識台灣的窗口不能偏頗 這個第一個我希望你們可以調整啦\n570140\t572869\t那這可以吧好 謝謝委員我們還有補助相關的請問部長你認同嗎是部長\n576451\t583115\t我不但認同還非常感謝你對聯合報這麼了解如果就歷史來講這三個時間都對我們會把它補起來而且你要知道嗎你把它補起來之後就會知道台灣的當初戒嚴是報競聯合報中國時報可以賣到一百萬份後來漸漸報競開放之後報紙變很多之後它的賣量變少因為我持續時間有些你講故事都講太久其實我很喜歡聽有一天\n604748\t630274\t比如說我們可以請你喝個下午茶你慢慢講給我聽但是因為我們資訊時間很有限啦我們就針對重點好不好好那所以這個部分你們認同嗎不能有偏頗啦好不好第二個授權的部分為什麼可以代替聯合報去授權呢跟我們報告如果說那個出授權的原始人還是存去的話我們不會主動做這個授權我們只有做物的比如說要借展才會有授權那這個部分如果說它是涉及內容的引用的話都還是要回到原來比如說\n631354\t649244\t所以你們如果有智慧財產權你們不會做授權好不好這是你講的再來還有這個是民進黨這個建黨週年紀念表總共典藏了七支你看有登錄七個登錄號為什麼這個表是特別厲害還是怎樣我是好奇啦就是典藏了七支是為什麼\n651206\t680599\t跟委員報告好我現在沒有在質疑說你們是不是只弄民進黨的東西沒有喔我現在只是好奇說這個錶是不是厲害的地方在哪裡典藏了七支海史博它是新往近成立的一個博物館那我們有在積極地進行當代的收藏那很多其實是民間的一個捐贈那我們這邊的話其實會先就捐贈的物件先做一些初步的一個審議那這個部分我也是需要再做確認就是說也許它因為剛才有報告就是說每個文物它其實有不同的一個脈絡跟後面的一些\n680939\t706713\t所以我必須要再確認一下說當初這個路長你再確認好不好看起來乍看之下你也覺得很怪但是我不為難你啦你再去確認那一個東西好然後再來就是我覺得這個歷史播放好像對於這個選舉的東西特別有興趣連那個2000年沉水扁的礦泉水都有典藏然後還有宣傳手機架鑰匙圈旗子布條等等這些東西\n708711\t735878\t這個選舉小物為什麼可以成為國家級典藏品因為我你到時候要一併說明沒有沒有好先一併說明各位國民報告就是因應整個現在世界的潮流就是當代議題的一個收藏包括這些選舉或是像疫情這些等等都是會有一個初步的收藏那我們現在管內有制定一個相關的就是一個分流的制度當代典藏跟因為當初剛開始的時候制度還不完善你說剛開始的時候因為人家只要捐贈你就收是不是\n736158\t753954\t我們還是有經過審議那當時候因為有一開始的話經過審議那會納入文物但是我們現在我們現在就是問說這個審議為什麼會這樣啊它的標準是什麼啊對就是其實我們是因應整個世紀潮流現在針對這些重要的議題其實都有當代搜查OKOK好那繼續但你剛剛講說那都很重要嘛像剛剛那個部長講說飯雲為什麼會被收藏因為他太重要了\n759139\t775072\t那我想有參選過總統的人的東西應該也蠻重要吧可是我們去搜尋關鍵詞韓國瑜跟柯文哲就沒有任何的文物典藏他的一個旗子他的一個面子或他的一個什麼小物就通通都沒有啊所以這標準很怪啊\n776483\t795262\t這標準很怪啊跟委員報告就是這些選舉物件主要都是來自於民間的捐贈那所以其實民間如果有捐贈那我們經過搜審之後所以意思是說因為韓粉跟柯粉沒有去捐贈所以沒有然後只要有捐贈不管你捐贈一支兩支三支四支甚至七支你都收\n795885\t804427\t我們還是有經過嚴謹的一個搜尋嚴謹那為什麼要棲織你還是回答不出來了剛才有稍微看一下我認為應該是說有捐贈還是要做一個篩選好不好那再來剛剛那個問題剛剛如果說你剛剛沒有辦法回答的麻煩寫一個針對我剛剛的問題寫個報告給我最後很快因為部長應該知道我們很關心打黃牛這件事情本來我去年是有提案\n825751\t841125\t因為打荒的辦公室我認為成效不彰啦他那個時候只有裁發了七十幾件變了兩千多萬只有裁發七十幾件覺得成效不彰反正要提案刪除但後來因為你們也有溝通嘛覺得會好好做這個事情所以我們也沒有這個預算沒有處理但是網路上就在帶風向\n842226\t862956\t說好像我們去監督這個預算就是支持黃牛說什麼以後大家有買到黃牛票就大家來找我我覺得這個台灣這個網路實在是太誇張了完全沒有就事論事空間從頭到尾我們在這邊就是把關預算認為這個導黃牛辦公室沒有積極扮演好它的成效那現在最新的資料是說才發了145件那部長你自己滿意嗎\n867415\t880190\t我說不算滿意或者不滿意因為環遊的問題大家都知道在文創法裡面我們沒有直接可以限制票的買賣我們唯一做的就是\n881693\t895704\t在最近做了一件比較有進步的事情就是約這六都的負責大場館的這種的人來開會希望他們在辦法上鼓勵實名制那這效果非常好文化部會補助經費\n898152\t923785\t補助那些願意用實名制來辦演唱會的團體結果效果果然環流就下降像這種就是一個我們在法律上沒有不准他用這種方式販售環流的一個法我們只能用去檢舉那你也知道檢舉的過程非常繁複檢舉到之後我們整理完叫警政單位去抓他這個過程是很繁複的\n924545\t947896\t那對於一個文化部來講他去管理黃牛這件事情是非常吃力的好 那個部長這個加油啦好不好大家都很對黃牛深惡痛絕啦而且預算給你們的我覺得就要不是說發包出去啦還是要盯一下啦希望他們可以積極的把黃牛的杜絕好不好讓大家可以不要多花冤枉錢好 謝謝謝謝\n","txt":"你好 請文化部長好 有請部長廖委員你好部長好 我跟你請教一下這個跟你請教一下國立台灣歷史博物館的問題因為我看到業務報告也說台灣歷史博物館要擴建嘛那台灣歷史博物館它的主要的設立的宗旨呢是文化部要辦理台灣歷史與民俗文化相關\n文物史料的收集整理保存跟研究而且要展示跟推廣教育剛剛有提到說你們業務報告裡面也有講說現在要啟動第二期的擴建計畫114年如果能夠獲行這份核定預計119年完工開放營域要成為世界認識台灣的首要窗口所以他的目標是很宏大的是首要窗口就是說\n除了台灣之外其他國家想要認識台灣都可以透過我們的國立台灣歷史博物館這個國立台灣歷史博物館非常重要那我就就幾個面向來跟這個部長討論第一個我想問我們在國立台灣歷史博物館的典藏裡面我們有看到\n這個范雲他在2016年競選的文宣當時他去攻擊他的對手蔣乃馨提了三個問題說你為什麼都不回答然後這個文宣呢\n這個當然描述上是非常的用正面的語氣啦說文宣正面質問對手國民黨江乃馨任立委是做的總統決定背後呢論述人民為何應該要投給范雲並有小野於蔣勳為其背書我有提到部長我想問一下這個為什麼歷史博物館會典藏這個東西他的考慮是什麼\n你剛才講這一段我並不知道但是也不是因為我是文化部長之後才收藏這個東西我覺得也不是啦但是據我了解我是問說現在因為我們這個東西是世界認識台灣的首要創作我想它很簡單就是台灣從戒嚴以後走入民主那個民主運動是一個蠻重要的那個過程然後范雲假如各位沒有忘記的話當年是野百合\n的領袖他是在野百合佔領這個中正紀念堂的領袖所以他後來出來從政他的歷史後來前面被國民黨監視的歷史所以你的意思是說因為范雲特別重要啦所以就有點藏了他的文宣去質問蔣乃馨 而且是2016年他的第一次選舉那我們來看下一個\n這個是蔡英文總統跟陳建仁副總統可能第一次出來選總統的文宣那我想請教一下因為這個文宣你們在那個歷史博物館裡面典藏了兩份那為什麼有的文宣你是典藏兩份啊\n為什麼會點藏兩份?目的是什麼?這點你也不清楚我必須承認我不知道不知道那今天文化部有沒有有沒有知道的人可以來幫部長回答一下今天我們有代表來我也好我是台灣歷史博物館副館長莊佩華那我們的這些文物其實我們有因應選舉的話去進行當代的收藏\n那就是在經過一個委員的搜審過程來確認這些文物是否入場那有些文物他可能會在他的背後可能有他不同的一個脈絡所以這個部分有兩份的部分我可以再做確認然後再跟委員做一個比較完整的報告所以你也不曉得嘛但是他就是有兩份啊他就有兩份好我們進去看因為我看了蠻多的好這個是蔡英文點亮台灣總統競選宣傳旗\n有兩隻那我這個部分是想請教一下文物你們收藏之後會說要保存嘛那保存會維護嗎比如說那個棋子如果說有破損那就是讓他繼續破損還是說你們其實是有編人力資品維護人力去修復狀況是怎麼樣\n我想用我的經驗來看它這是跟一般的文物是一樣要保存的但是我得跟委員講一下我的想法就是譬如說部長部長我時間有限你直接回答我問題就好因為我現在是問說因為這個東西很重要嘛它是世界認識台灣的首要窗口啊所以我們當然保存東西要好好保存我現在只是問我的問題很簡單\n就是他如果有破損會不會有修復當然要修復有會修復因為你簡化了蔡英文跟簡化了這個我問你一個問題像我去拜訪林義雄他是一個受害者欸這不是你在質詢我啦我的問題很簡單啦問題只是說你會不會修復而已嘛他家裡擺了一大堆民主運動的資料全部是拒絕的棋子部長部長不要岔題啦我問的是說\n因為我的問題很簡單部長我到現在為止都沒有在我只是在詢問我想知道說保存我沒有說不能保存這個我現在只是問說保存這個有沒有修復機制你不要防禦心這麼強我當然小心我只是問有沒有修復機制因為這個歷史博物館是認識台灣首要窗口\n我沒有不讓你做這個事我是問說你有沒有好好保存當然要好好保存好要保存嘛 對吧那所以你們有編制多少人力在做維護的這件事情後面那位多少人留言 對啊比如說織品如果有損壞或者是有一些書面印刷有損壞或什麼你們現在的編制修復的人力是怎樣\n跟我們報告那由於整個編制的問題那台思博目前有兩位修復師那我們就是文物進場之前會先進行整吃那這部分會委外來進行委外那個專業的廠商來進行委外來進行就對了是用委外的方式對那我們內部有兩位修復師兩位修復師他是修復哪一類的因為不同文物會有不同的修復技巧有一位是以紙質為主然後一位是以木質為主然後其他就委外嘛好下一頁他們也都熟\n下一頁這個聯合報齁一樣齁這個聯合報有一他的頭版喔2012年的1月10號點藏也是點藏兩份然後這個問題剛剛沒有辦法回答嘛因為你不知道說為什麼有的是點藏兩份以上嘛但是這個聯合報的點藏有兩個問題我想要就教一下部長齁第一個\n他這邊在這個文物的描述的部分啊特別提到主要經營人是承認中國國民黨中央常務委員的王剃無另外聯合報在1992年曾因刊登中共中央政治局常務委員的李瑞環的談話而引發退報運動那當然你們的講法一定會是說對啊他就是客觀描述啊他的確是創辦人是誰啊然後他的確這個有退報運動可是我這邊好奇的是啊\n聯合報實際上他退報運動總共有三次我們來看一下不是只有那一次李瑞環的比如說1960年他們因為挺雷震堅守第四權所以曾經引發時任總統蔣中正不悅軍方發起退報運動但是聯合報能貫徹正派辦報\n就是說他退報其實有好幾次但是你們在文物的描述我們看上一頁文物的描述上專門把這個他1992年刊載中共中央政治局常委李瑞環談話引發退報就把它寫在那邊好像聯合報就只有這一支退報運動而且他還是因為刊載了中共的言論的關係被退報\n我覺得是有偏頗啦這是第一個問題等一下一起回答第二個問題是因為這個歷史博物館他可以把典藏的文物做授權嘛那現在你典藏了聯合報的的這個報紙那人家也可以來取得授權可是理論上來講聯合報的東西應該是屬於他個人的智慧財產權啊那歷史博物館為什麼會可以把別人的智慧財產權做授權的動作呢兩個問題\n跟委員報告就是說有關文物的部分我們會就當下那個研究員他們就會去做相關的資料的一個手整然後經過審議委員來做確認內容那如果說這個內容他因為當時候的內容如果不是很就是完整的話他只會就當下的那個事件來做處理那如果說未來我們再進行更深入的研究的時候我們會再把相關的詮釋資料來進行補助\n你現在你是下面對聯合報做敘述啦其實你這個文物典藏你不是描述文物本身那個文物本身是2012年的1月10號的內容嘛但是你現在下面紅字我標出來的部分其實是你們對於聯合報的敘述\n那聯合報敘述如果你要講退報運動他有好幾次退報運動那為什麼你就只講這一次咧就偏頗啊就人家也曾經有挺雷震啊 堅守第四權被退報你不講你只講說因為他有刊登過什麼中共的某一個人的談話所以被退報 我覺得太偏頗了啊好不好 歷史博物館既然是世界認識台灣的窗口不能偏頗 這個第一個我希望你們可以調整啦\n那這可以吧好 謝謝委員我們還有補助相關的請問部長你認同嗎是部長\n我不但認同還非常感謝你對聯合報這麼了解如果就歷史來講這三個時間都對我們會把它補起來而且你要知道嗎你把它補起來之後就會知道台灣的當初戒嚴是報競聯合報中國時報可以賣到一百萬份後來漸漸報競開放之後報紙變很多之後它的賣量變少因為我持續時間有些你講故事都講太久其實我很喜歡聽有一天\n比如說我們可以請你喝個下午茶你慢慢講給我聽但是因為我們資訊時間很有限啦我們就針對重點好不好好那所以這個部分你們認同嗎不能有偏頗啦好不好第二個授權的部分為什麼可以代替聯合報去授權呢跟我們報告如果說那個出授權的原始人還是存去的話我們不會主動做這個授權我們只有做物的比如說要借展才會有授權那這個部分如果說它是涉及內容的引用的話都還是要回到原來比如說\n所以你們如果有智慧財產權你們不會做授權好不好這是你講的再來還有這個是民進黨這個建黨週年紀念表總共典藏了七支你看有登錄七個登錄號為什麼這個表是特別厲害還是怎樣我是好奇啦就是典藏了七支是為什麼\n跟委員報告好我現在沒有在質疑說你們是不是只弄民進黨的東西沒有喔我現在只是好奇說這個錶是不是厲害的地方在哪裡典藏了七支海史博它是新往近成立的一個博物館那我們有在積極地進行當代的收藏那很多其實是民間的一個捐贈那我們這邊的話其實會先就捐贈的物件先做一些初步的一個審議那這個部分我也是需要再做確認就是說也許它因為剛才有報告就是說每個文物它其實有不同的一個脈絡跟後面的一些\n所以我必須要再確認一下說當初這個路長你再確認好不好看起來乍看之下你也覺得很怪但是我不為難你啦你再去確認那一個東西好然後再來就是我覺得這個歷史播放好像對於這個選舉的東西特別有興趣連那個2000年沉水扁的礦泉水都有典藏然後還有宣傳手機架鑰匙圈旗子布條等等這些東西\n這個選舉小物為什麼可以成為國家級典藏品因為我你到時候要一併說明沒有沒有好先一併說明各位國民報告就是因應整個現在世界的潮流就是當代議題的一個收藏包括這些選舉或是像疫情這些等等都是會有一個初步的收藏那我們現在管內有制定一個相關的就是一個分流的制度當代典藏跟因為當初剛開始的時候制度還不完善你說剛開始的時候因為人家只要捐贈你就收是不是\n我們還是有經過審議那當時候因為有一開始的話經過審議那會納入文物但是我們現在我們現在就是問說這個審議為什麼會這樣啊它的標準是什麼啊對就是其實我們是因應整個世紀潮流現在針對這些重要的議題其實都有當代搜查OKOK好那繼續但你剛剛講說那都很重要嘛像剛剛那個部長講說飯雲為什麼會被收藏因為他太重要了\n那我想有參選過總統的人的東西應該也蠻重要吧可是我們去搜尋關鍵詞韓國瑜跟柯文哲就沒有任何的文物典藏他的一個旗子他的一個面子或他的一個什麼小物就通通都沒有啊所以這標準很怪啊\n這標準很怪啊跟委員報告就是這些選舉物件主要都是來自於民間的捐贈那所以其實民間如果有捐贈那我們經過搜審之後所以意思是說因為韓粉跟柯粉沒有去捐贈所以沒有然後只要有捐贈不管你捐贈一支兩支三支四支甚至七支你都收\n我們還是有經過嚴謹的一個搜尋嚴謹那為什麼要棲織你還是回答不出來了剛才有稍微看一下我認為應該是說有捐贈還是要做一個篩選好不好那再來剛剛那個問題剛剛如果說你剛剛沒有辦法回答的麻煩寫一個針對我剛剛的問題寫個報告給我最後很快因為部長應該知道我們很關心打黃牛這件事情本來我去年是有提案\n因為打荒的辦公室我認為成效不彰啦他那個時候只有裁發了七十幾件變了兩千多萬只有裁發七十幾件覺得成效不彰反正要提案刪除但後來因為你們也有溝通嘛覺得會好好做這個事情所以我們也沒有這個預算沒有處理但是網路上就在帶風向\n說好像我們去監督這個預算就是支持黃牛說什麼以後大家有買到黃牛票就大家來找我我覺得這個台灣這個網路實在是太誇張了完全沒有就事論事空間從頭到尾我們在這邊就是把關預算認為這個導黃牛辦公室沒有積極扮演好它的成效那現在最新的資料是說才發了145件那部長你自己滿意嗎\n我說不算滿意或者不滿意因為環遊的問題大家都知道在文創法裡面我們沒有直接可以限制票的買賣我們唯一做的就是\n在最近做了一件比較有進步的事情就是約這六都的負責大場館的這種的人來開會希望他們在辦法上鼓勵實名制那這效果非常好文化部會補助經費\n補助那些願意用實名制來辦演唱會的團體結果效果果然環流就下降像這種就是一個我們在法律上沒有不准他用這種方式販售環流的一個法我們只能用去檢舉那你也知道檢舉的過程非常繁複檢舉到之後我們整理完叫警政單位去抓他這個過程是很繁複的\n那對於一個文化部來講他去管理黃牛這件事情是非常吃力的好 那個部長這個加油啦好不好大家都很對黃牛深惡痛絕啦而且預算給你們的我覺得就要不是說發包出去啦還是要盯一下啦希望他們可以積極的把黃牛的杜絕好不好讓大家可以不要多花冤枉錢好 謝謝謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.141 --> 00:09.523\n你好請文化部長好有請部長廖委員你好部長好我跟你請教一下這個跟你請教一下國立台灣歷史博物館的問題因為我看到業務報告也說台灣歷史博物館要擴建嘛那台灣歷史博物館它的主要的設立的宗旨呢是文化部要辦理台灣歷史與民俗文化相關\n\n00:36.141 --> 01:00.727\n文物史料的收集整理保存跟研究而且要展示跟推廣教育剛剛有提到說你們業務報告裡面也有講說現在要啟動第二期的擴建計畫114年如果能夠獲行這份核定預計119年完工開放營域要成為世界認識台灣的首要窗口所以他的目標是很宏大的是首要窗口就是說\n\n01:01.807 --> 01:20.793\n除了台灣之外其他國家想要認識台灣都可以透過我們的國立台灣歷史博物館這個國立台灣歷史博物館非常重要那我就就幾個面向來跟這個部長討論第一個我想問我們在國立台灣歷史博物館的典藏裡面我們有看到\n\n01:23.079 --> 01:37.124\n這個范雲他在2016年競選的文宣當時他去攻擊他的對手蔣乃馨提了三個問題說你為什麼都不回答然後這個文宣呢\n\n01:38.384 --> 01:59.869\n這個當然描述上是非常的用正面的語氣啦說文宣正面質問對手國民黨江乃馨任立委是做的總統決定背後呢論述人民為何應該要投給范雲並有小野於蔣勳為其背書我有提到部長我想問一下這個為什麼歷史博物館會典藏這個東西他的考慮是什麼\n\n02:01.175 --> 02:29.767\n你剛才講這一段我並不知道但是也不是因為我是文化部長之後才收藏這個東西我覺得也不是啦但是據我了解我是問說現在因為我們這個東西是世界認識台灣的首要創作我想它很簡單就是台灣從戒嚴以後走入民主那個民主運動是一個蠻重要的那個過程然後范雲假如各位沒有忘記的話當年是野百合\n\n02:30.487 --> 02:50.793\n的領袖他是在野百合佔領這個中正紀念堂的領袖所以他後來出來從政他的歷史後來前面被國民黨監視的歷史所以你的意思是說因為范雲特別重要啦所以就有點藏了他的文宣去質問蔣乃馨而且是2016年他的第一次選舉那我們來看下一個\n\n02:56.515 --> 03:11.062\n這個是蔡英文總統跟陳建仁副總統可能第一次出來選總統的文宣那我想請教一下因為這個文宣你們在那個歷史博物館裡面典藏了兩份那為什麼有的文宣你是典藏兩份啊\n\n03:13.292 --> 03:33.511\n為什麼會點藏兩份?目的是什麼?這點你也不清楚我必須承認我不知道不知道那今天文化部有沒有有沒有知道的人可以來幫部長回答一下今天我們有代表來我也好我是台灣歷史博物館副館長莊佩華那我們的這些文物其實我們有因應選舉的話去進行當代的收藏\n\n03:34.031 --> 03:57.236\n那就是在經過一個委員的搜審過程來確認這些文物是否入場那有些文物他可能會在他的背後可能有他不同的一個脈絡所以這個部分有兩份的部分我可以再做確認然後再跟委員做一個比較完整的報告所以你也不曉得嘛但是他就是有兩份啊他就有兩份好我們進去看因為我看了蠻多的好這個是蔡英文點亮台灣總統競選宣傳旗\n\n03:59.716 --> 04:19.888\n有兩隻那我這個部分是想請教一下文物你們收藏之後會說要保存嘛那保存會維護嗎比如說那個棋子如果說有破損那就是讓他繼續破損還是說你們其實是有編人力資品維護人力去修復狀況是怎麼樣\n\n04:22.264 --> 04:44.400\n我想用我的經驗來看它這是跟一般的文物是一樣要保存的但是我得跟委員講一下我的想法就是譬如說部長部長我時間有限你直接回答我問題就好因為我現在是問說因為這個東西很重要嘛它是世界認識台灣的首要窗口啊所以我們當然保存東西要好好保存我現在只是問我的問題很簡單\n\n04:45.420 --> 05:06.999\n就是他如果有破損會不會有修復當然要修復有會修復因為你簡化了蔡英文跟簡化了這個我問你一個問題像我去拜訪林義雄他是一個受害者欸這不是你在質詢我啦我的問題很簡單啦問題只是說你會不會修復而已嘛他家裡擺了一大堆民主運動的資料全部是拒絕的棋子部長部長不要岔題啦我問的是說\n\n05:09.861 --> 05:32.767\n因為我的問題很簡單部長我到現在為止都沒有在我只是在詢問我想知道說保存我沒有說不能保存這個我現在只是問說保存這個有沒有修復機制你不要防禦心這麼強我當然小心我只是問有沒有修復機制因為這個歷史博物館是認識台灣首要窗口\n\n05:33.507 --> 05:52.014\n我沒有不讓你做這個事我是問說你有沒有好好保存當然要好好保存好要保存嘛對吧那所以你們有編制多少人力在做維護的這件事情後面那位多少人留言對啊比如說織品如果有損壞或者是有一些書面印刷有損壞或什麼你們現在的編制修復的人力是怎樣\n\n05:52.714 --> 06:20.351\n跟我們報告那由於整個編制的問題那台思博目前有兩位修復師那我們就是文物進場之前會先進行整吃那這部分會委外來進行委外那個專業的廠商來進行委外來進行就對了是用委外的方式對那我們內部有兩位修復師兩位修復師他是修復哪一類的因為不同文物會有不同的修復技巧有一位是以紙質為主然後一位是以木質為主然後其他就委外嘛好下一頁他們也都熟\n\n06:20.831 --> 06:39.406\n下一頁這個聯合報齁一樣齁這個聯合報有一他的頭版喔2012年的1月10號點藏也是點藏兩份然後這個問題剛剛沒有辦法回答嘛因為你不知道說為什麼有的是點藏兩份以上嘛但是這個聯合報的點藏有兩個問題我想要就教一下部長齁第一個\n\n06:40.711 --> 07:07.777\n他這邊在這個文物的描述的部分啊特別提到主要經營人是承認中國國民黨中央常務委員的王剃無另外聯合報在1992年曾因刊登中共中央政治局常務委員的李瑞環的談話而引發退報運動那當然你們的講法一定會是說對啊他就是客觀描述啊他的確是創辦人是誰啊然後他的確這個有退報運動可是我這邊好奇的是啊\n\n07:09.409 --> 07:24.473\n聯合報實際上他退報運動總共有三次我們來看一下不是只有那一次李瑞環的比如說1960年他們因為挺雷震堅守第四權所以曾經引發時任總統蔣中正不悅軍方發起退報運動但是聯合報能貫徹正派辦報\n\n07:30.915 --> 07:50.205\n就是說他退報其實有好幾次但是你們在文物的描述我們看上一頁文物的描述上專門把這個他1992年刊載中共中央政治局常委李瑞環談話引發退報就把它寫在那邊好像聯合報就只有這一支退報運動而且他還是因為刊載了中共的言論的關係被退報\n\n07:52.079 --> 08:16.785\n我覺得是有偏頗啦這是第一個問題等一下一起回答第二個問題是因為這個歷史博物館他可以把典藏的文物做授權嘛那現在你典藏了聯合報的的這個報紙那人家也可以來取得授權可是理論上來講聯合報的東西應該是屬於他個人的智慧財產權啊那歷史博物館為什麼會可以把別人的智慧財產權做授權的動作呢兩個問題\n\n08:24.057 --> 08:45.545\n跟委員報告就是說有關文物的部分我們會就當下那個研究員他們就會去做相關的資料的一個手整然後經過審議委員來做確認內容那如果說這個內容他因為當時候的內容如果不是很就是完整的話他只會就當下的那個事件來做處理那如果說未來我們再進行更深入的研究的時候我們會再把相關的詮釋資料來進行補助\n\n08:47.720 --> 09:01.680\n你現在你是下面對聯合報做敘述啦其實你這個文物典藏你不是描述文物本身那個文物本身是2012年的1月10號的內容嘛但是你現在下面紅字我標出來的部分其實是你們對於聯合報的敘述\n\n09:02.922 --> 09:29.520\n那聯合報敘述如果你要講退報運動他有好幾次退報運動那為什麼你就只講這一次咧就偏頗啊就人家也曾經有挺雷震啊堅守第四權被退報你不講你只講說因為他有刊登過什麼中共的某一個人的談話所以被退報我覺得太偏頗了啊好不好歷史博物館既然是世界認識台灣的窗口不能偏頗這個第一個我希望你們可以調整啦\n\n09:30.140 --> 09:32.869\n那這可以吧好謝謝委員我們還有補助相關的請問部長你認同嗎是部長\n\n09:36.451 --> 09:43.115\n我不但認同還非常感謝你對聯合報這麼了解如果就歷史來講這三個時間都對我們會把它補起來而且你要知道嗎你把它補起來之後就會知道台灣的當初戒嚴是報競聯合報中國時報可以賣到一百萬份後來漸漸報競開放之後報紙變很多之後它的賣量變少因為我持續時間有些你講故事都講太久其實我很喜歡聽有一天\n\n10:04.748 --> 10:30.274\n比如說我們可以請你喝個下午茶你慢慢講給我聽但是因為我們資訊時間很有限啦我們就針對重點好不好好那所以這個部分你們認同嗎不能有偏頗啦好不好第二個授權的部分為什麼可以代替聯合報去授權呢跟我們報告如果說那個出授權的原始人還是存去的話我們不會主動做這個授權我們只有做物的比如說要借展才會有授權那這個部分如果說它是涉及內容的引用的話都還是要回到原來比如說\n\n10:31.354 --> 10:49.244\n所以你們如果有智慧財產權你們不會做授權好不好這是你講的再來還有這個是民進黨這個建黨週年紀念表總共典藏了七支你看有登錄七個登錄號為什麼這個表是特別厲害還是怎樣我是好奇啦就是典藏了七支是為什麼\n\n10:51.206 --> 11:20.599\n跟委員報告好我現在沒有在質疑說你們是不是只弄民進黨的東西沒有喔我現在只是好奇說這個錶是不是厲害的地方在哪裡典藏了七支海史博它是新往近成立的一個博物館那我們有在積極地進行當代的收藏那很多其實是民間的一個捐贈那我們這邊的話其實會先就捐贈的物件先做一些初步的一個審議那這個部分我也是需要再做確認就是說也許它因為剛才有報告就是說每個文物它其實有不同的一個脈絡跟後面的一些\n\n11:20.939 --> 11:46.713\n所以我必須要再確認一下說當初這個路長你再確認好不好看起來乍看之下你也覺得很怪但是我不為難你啦你再去確認那一個東西好然後再來就是我覺得這個歷史播放好像對於這個選舉的東西特別有興趣連那個2000年沉水扁的礦泉水都有典藏然後還有宣傳手機架鑰匙圈旗子布條等等這些東西\n\n11:48.711 --> 12:15.878\n這個選舉小物為什麼可以成為國家級典藏品因為我你到時候要一併說明沒有沒有好先一併說明各位國民報告就是因應整個現在世界的潮流就是當代議題的一個收藏包括這些選舉或是像疫情這些等等都是會有一個初步的收藏那我們現在管內有制定一個相關的就是一個分流的制度當代典藏跟因為當初剛開始的時候制度還不完善你說剛開始的時候因為人家只要捐贈你就收是不是\n\n12:16.158 --> 12:33.954\n我們還是有經過審議那當時候因為有一開始的話經過審議那會納入文物但是我們現在我們現在就是問說這個審議為什麼會這樣啊它的標準是什麼啊對就是其實我們是因應整個世紀潮流現在針對這些重要的議題其實都有當代搜查OKOK好那繼續但你剛剛講說那都很重要嘛像剛剛那個部長講說飯雲為什麼會被收藏因為他太重要了\n\n12:39.139 --> 12:55.072\n那我想有參選過總統的人的東西應該也蠻重要吧可是我們去搜尋關鍵詞韓國瑜跟柯文哲就沒有任何的文物典藏他的一個旗子他的一個面子或他的一個什麼小物就通通都沒有啊所以這標準很怪啊\n\n12:56.483 --> 13:15.262\n這標準很怪啊跟委員報告就是這些選舉物件主要都是來自於民間的捐贈那所以其實民間如果有捐贈那我們經過搜審之後所以意思是說因為韓粉跟柯粉沒有去捐贈所以沒有然後只要有捐贈不管你捐贈一支兩支三支四支甚至七支你都收\n\n13:15.885 --> 13:24.427\n我們還是有經過嚴謹的一個搜尋嚴謹那為什麼要棲織你還是回答不出來了剛才有稍微看一下我認為應該是說有捐贈還是要做一個篩選好不好那再來剛剛那個問題剛剛如果說你剛剛沒有辦法回答的麻煩寫一個針對我剛剛的問題寫個報告給我最後很快因為部長應該知道我們很關心打黃牛這件事情本來我去年是有提案\n\n13:45.751 --> 14:01.125\n因為打荒的辦公室我認為成效不彰啦他那個時候只有裁發了七十幾件變了兩千多萬只有裁發七十幾件覺得成效不彰反正要提案刪除但後來因為你們也有溝通嘛覺得會好好做這個事情所以我們也沒有這個預算沒有處理但是網路上就在帶風向\n\n14:02.226 --> 14:22.956\n說好像我們去監督這個預算就是支持黃牛說什麼以後大家有買到黃牛票就大家來找我我覺得這個台灣這個網路實在是太誇張了完全沒有就事論事空間從頭到尾我們在這邊就是把關預算認為這個導黃牛辦公室沒有積極扮演好它的成效那現在最新的資料是說才發了145件那部長你自己滿意嗎\n\n14:27.415 --> 14:40.190\n我說不算滿意或者不滿意因為環遊的問題大家都知道在文創法裡面我們沒有直接可以限制票的買賣我們唯一做的就是\n\n14:41.693 --> 14:55.704\n在最近做了一件比較有進步的事情就是約這六都的負責大場館的這種的人來開會希望他們在辦法上鼓勵實名制那這效果非常好文化部會補助經費\n\n14:58.152 --> 15:23.785\n補助那些願意用實名制來辦演唱會的團體結果效果果然環流就下降像這種就是一個我們在法律上沒有不准他用這種方式販售環流的一個法我們只能用去檢舉那你也知道檢舉的過程非常繁複檢舉到之後我們整理完叫警政單位去抓他這個過程是很繁複的\n\n15:24.545 --> 15:47.896\n那對於一個文化部來講他去管理黃牛這件事情是非常吃力的好那個部長這個加油啦好不好大家都很對黃牛深惡痛絕啦而且預算給你們的我覺得就要不是說發包出去啦還是要盯一下啦希望他們可以積極的把黃牛的杜絕好不好讓大家可以不要多花冤枉錢好謝謝謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.141,"end":9.523,"text":"你好 請文化部長好 有請部長廖委員你好部長好 我跟你請教一下這個跟你請教一下國立台灣歷史博物館的問題因為我看到業務報告也說台灣歷史博物館要擴建嘛那台灣歷史博物館它的主要的設立的宗旨呢是文化部要辦理台灣歷史與民俗文化相關"},{"start":36.141,"end":60.727,"text":"文物史料的收集整理保存跟研究而且要展示跟推廣教育剛剛有提到說你們業務報告裡面也有講說現在要啟動第二期的擴建計畫114年如果能夠獲行這份核定預計119年完工開放營域要成為世界認識台灣的首要窗口所以他的目標是很宏大的是首要窗口就是說"},{"start":61.807,"end":80.793,"text":"除了台灣之外其他國家想要認識台灣都可以透過我們的國立台灣歷史博物館這個國立台灣歷史博物館非常重要那我就就幾個面向來跟這個部長討論第一個我想問我們在國立台灣歷史博物館的典藏裡面我們有看到"},{"start":83.079,"end":97.124,"text":"這個范雲他在2016年競選的文宣當時他去攻擊他的對手蔣乃馨提了三個問題說你為什麼都不回答然後這個文宣呢"},{"start":98.384,"end":119.869,"text":"這個當然描述上是非常的用正面的語氣啦說文宣正面質問對手國民黨江乃馨任立委是做的總統決定背後呢論述人民為何應該要投給范雲並有小野於蔣勳為其背書我有提到部長我想問一下這個為什麼歷史博物館會典藏這個東西他的考慮是什麼"},{"start":121.175,"end":149.767,"text":"你剛才講這一段我並不知道但是也不是因為我是文化部長之後才收藏這個東西我覺得也不是啦但是據我了解我是問說現在因為我們這個東西是世界認識台灣的首要創作我想它很簡單就是台灣從戒嚴以後走入民主那個民主運動是一個蠻重要的那個過程然後范雲假如各位沒有忘記的話當年是野百合"},{"start":150.487,"end":170.793,"text":"的領袖他是在野百合佔領這個中正紀念堂的領袖所以他後來出來從政他的歷史後來前面被國民黨監視的歷史所以你的意思是說因為范雲特別重要啦所以就有點藏了他的文宣去質問蔣乃馨 而且是2016年他的第一次選舉那我們來看下一個"},{"start":176.515,"end":191.062,"text":"這個是蔡英文總統跟陳建仁副總統可能第一次出來選總統的文宣那我想請教一下因為這個文宣你們在那個歷史博物館裡面典藏了兩份那為什麼有的文宣你是典藏兩份啊"},{"start":193.292,"end":213.511,"text":"為什麼會點藏兩份?目的是什麼?這點你也不清楚我必須承認我不知道不知道那今天文化部有沒有有沒有知道的人可以來幫部長回答一下今天我們有代表來我也好我是台灣歷史博物館副館長莊佩華那我們的這些文物其實我們有因應選舉的話去進行當代的收藏"},{"start":214.031,"end":237.236,"text":"那就是在經過一個委員的搜審過程來確認這些文物是否入場那有些文物他可能會在他的背後可能有他不同的一個脈絡所以這個部分有兩份的部分我可以再做確認然後再跟委員做一個比較完整的報告所以你也不曉得嘛但是他就是有兩份啊他就有兩份好我們進去看因為我看了蠻多的好這個是蔡英文點亮台灣總統競選宣傳旗"},{"start":239.716,"end":259.888,"text":"有兩隻那我這個部分是想請教一下文物你們收藏之後會說要保存嘛那保存會維護嗎比如說那個棋子如果說有破損那就是讓他繼續破損還是說你們其實是有編人力資品維護人力去修復狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":262.264,"end":284.4,"text":"我想用我的經驗來看它這是跟一般的文物是一樣要保存的但是我得跟委員講一下我的想法就是譬如說部長部長我時間有限你直接回答我問題就好因為我現在是問說因為這個東西很重要嘛它是世界認識台灣的首要窗口啊所以我們當然保存東西要好好保存我現在只是問我的問題很簡單"},{"start":285.42,"end":306.999,"text":"就是他如果有破損會不會有修復當然要修復有會修復因為你簡化了蔡英文跟簡化了這個我問你一個問題像我去拜訪林義雄他是一個受害者欸這不是你在質詢我啦我的問題很簡單啦問題只是說你會不會修復而已嘛他家裡擺了一大堆民主運動的資料全部是拒絕的棋子部長部長不要岔題啦我問的是說"},{"start":309.861,"end":332.767,"text":"因為我的問題很簡單部長我到現在為止都沒有在我只是在詢問我想知道說保存我沒有說不能保存這個我現在只是問說保存這個有沒有修復機制你不要防禦心這麼強我當然小心我只是問有沒有修復機制因為這個歷史博物館是認識台灣首要窗口"},{"start":333.507,"end":352.014,"text":"我沒有不讓你做這個事我是問說你有沒有好好保存當然要好好保存好要保存嘛 對吧那所以你們有編制多少人力在做維護的這件事情後面那位多少人留言 對啊比如說織品如果有損壞或者是有一些書面印刷有損壞或什麼你們現在的編制修復的人力是怎樣"},{"start":352.714,"end":380.351,"text":"跟我們報告那由於整個編制的問題那台思博目前有兩位修復師那我們就是文物進場之前會先進行整吃那這部分會委外來進行委外那個專業的廠商來進行委外來進行就對了是用委外的方式對那我們內部有兩位修復師兩位修復師他是修復哪一類的因為不同文物會有不同的修復技巧有一位是以紙質為主然後一位是以木質為主然後其他就委外嘛好下一頁他們也都熟"},{"start":380.831,"end":399.406,"text":"下一頁這個聯合報齁一樣齁這個聯合報有一他的頭版喔2012年的1月10號點藏也是點藏兩份然後這個問題剛剛沒有辦法回答嘛因為你不知道說為什麼有的是點藏兩份以上嘛但是這個聯合報的點藏有兩個問題我想要就教一下部長齁第一個"},{"start":400.711,"end":427.777,"text":"他這邊在這個文物的描述的部分啊特別提到主要經營人是承認中國國民黨中央常務委員的王剃無另外聯合報在1992年曾因刊登中共中央政治局常務委員的李瑞環的談話而引發退報運動那當然你們的講法一定會是說對啊他就是客觀描述啊他的確是創辦人是誰啊然後他的確這個有退報運動可是我這邊好奇的是啊"},{"start":429.409,"end":444.473,"text":"聯合報實際上他退報運動總共有三次我們來看一下不是只有那一次李瑞環的比如說1960年他們因為挺雷震堅守第四權所以曾經引發時任總統蔣中正不悅軍方發起退報運動但是聯合報能貫徹正派辦報"},{"start":450.915,"end":470.205,"text":"就是說他退報其實有好幾次但是你們在文物的描述我們看上一頁文物的描述上專門把這個他1992年刊載中共中央政治局常委李瑞環談話引發退報就把它寫在那邊好像聯合報就只有這一支退報運動而且他還是因為刊載了中共的言論的關係被退報"},{"start":472.079,"end":496.785,"text":"我覺得是有偏頗啦這是第一個問題等一下一起回答第二個問題是因為這個歷史博物館他可以把典藏的文物做授權嘛那現在你典藏了聯合報的的這個報紙那人家也可以來取得授權可是理論上來講聯合報的東西應該是屬於他個人的智慧財產權啊那歷史博物館為什麼會可以把別人的智慧財產權做授權的動作呢兩個問題"},{"start":504.057,"end":525.545,"text":"跟委員報告就是說有關文物的部分我們會就當下那個研究員他們就會去做相關的資料的一個手整然後經過審議委員來做確認內容那如果說這個內容他因為當時候的內容如果不是很就是完整的話他只會就當下的那個事件來做處理那如果說未來我們再進行更深入的研究的時候我們會再把相關的詮釋資料來進行補助"},{"start":527.72,"end":541.68,"text":"你現在你是下面對聯合報做敘述啦其實你這個文物典藏你不是描述文物本身那個文物本身是2012年的1月10號的內容嘛但是你現在下面紅字我標出來的部分其實是你們對於聯合報的敘述"},{"start":542.922,"end":569.52,"text":"那聯合報敘述如果你要講退報運動他有好幾次退報運動那為什麼你就只講這一次咧就偏頗啊就人家也曾經有挺雷震啊 堅守第四權被退報你不講你只講說因為他有刊登過什麼中共的某一個人的談話所以被退報 我覺得太偏頗了啊好不好 歷史博物館既然是世界認識台灣的窗口不能偏頗 這個第一個我希望你們可以調整啦"},{"start":570.14,"end":572.869,"text":"那這可以吧好 謝謝委員我們還有補助相關的請問部長你認同嗎是部長"},{"start":576.451,"end":583.115,"text":"我不但認同還非常感謝你對聯合報這麼了解如果就歷史來講這三個時間都對我們會把它補起來而且你要知道嗎你把它補起來之後就會知道台灣的當初戒嚴是報競聯合報中國時報可以賣到一百萬份後來漸漸報競開放之後報紙變很多之後它的賣量變少因為我持續時間有些你講故事都講太久其實我很喜歡聽有一天"},{"start":604.748,"end":630.274,"text":"比如說我們可以請你喝個下午茶你慢慢講給我聽但是因為我們資訊時間很有限啦我們就針對重點好不好好那所以這個部分你們認同嗎不能有偏頗啦好不好第二個授權的部分為什麼可以代替聯合報去授權呢跟我們報告如果說那個出授權的原始人還是存去的話我們不會主動做這個授權我們只有做物的比如說要借展才會有授權那這個部分如果說它是涉及內容的引用的話都還是要回到原來比如說"},{"start":631.354,"end":649.244,"text":"所以你們如果有智慧財產權你們不會做授權好不好這是你講的再來還有這個是民進黨這個建黨週年紀念表總共典藏了七支你看有登錄七個登錄號為什麼這個表是特別厲害還是怎樣我是好奇啦就是典藏了七支是為什麼"},{"start":651.206,"end":680.599,"text":"跟委員報告好我現在沒有在質疑說你們是不是只弄民進黨的東西沒有喔我現在只是好奇說這個錶是不是厲害的地方在哪裡典藏了七支海史博它是新往近成立的一個博物館那我們有在積極地進行當代的收藏那很多其實是民間的一個捐贈那我們這邊的話其實會先就捐贈的物件先做一些初步的一個審議那這個部分我也是需要再做確認就是說也許它因為剛才有報告就是說每個文物它其實有不同的一個脈絡跟後面的一些"},{"start":680.939,"end":706.713,"text":"所以我必須要再確認一下說當初這個路長你再確認好不好看起來乍看之下你也覺得很怪但是我不為難你啦你再去確認那一個東西好然後再來就是我覺得這個歷史播放好像對於這個選舉的東西特別有興趣連那個2000年沉水扁的礦泉水都有典藏然後還有宣傳手機架鑰匙圈旗子布條等等這些東西"},{"start":708.711,"end":735.878,"text":"這個選舉小物為什麼可以成為國家級典藏品因為我你到時候要一併說明沒有沒有好先一併說明各位國民報告就是因應整個現在世界的潮流就是當代議題的一個收藏包括這些選舉或是像疫情這些等等都是會有一個初步的收藏那我們現在管內有制定一個相關的就是一個分流的制度當代典藏跟因為當初剛開始的時候制度還不完善你說剛開始的時候因為人家只要捐贈你就收是不是"},{"start":736.158,"end":753.954,"text":"我們還是有經過審議那當時候因為有一開始的話經過審議那會納入文物但是我們現在我們現在就是問說這個審議為什麼會這樣啊它的標準是什麼啊對就是其實我們是因應整個世紀潮流現在針對這些重要的議題其實都有當代搜查OKOK好那繼續但你剛剛講說那都很重要嘛像剛剛那個部長講說飯雲為什麼會被收藏因為他太重要了"},{"start":759.139,"end":775.072,"text":"那我想有參選過總統的人的東西應該也蠻重要吧可是我們去搜尋關鍵詞韓國瑜跟柯文哲就沒有任何的文物典藏他的一個旗子他的一個面子或他的一個什麼小物就通通都沒有啊所以這標準很怪啊"},{"start":776.483,"end":795.262,"text":"這標準很怪啊跟委員報告就是這些選舉物件主要都是來自於民間的捐贈那所以其實民間如果有捐贈那我們經過搜審之後所以意思是說因為韓粉跟柯粉沒有去捐贈所以沒有然後只要有捐贈不管你捐贈一支兩支三支四支甚至七支你都收"},{"start":795.885,"end":804.427,"text":"我們還是有經過嚴謹的一個搜尋嚴謹那為什麼要棲織你還是回答不出來了剛才有稍微看一下我認為應該是說有捐贈還是要做一個篩選好不好那再來剛剛那個問題剛剛如果說你剛剛沒有辦法回答的麻煩寫一個針對我剛剛的問題寫個報告給我最後很快因為部長應該知道我們很關心打黃牛這件事情本來我去年是有提案"},{"start":825.751,"end":841.125,"text":"因為打荒的辦公室我認為成效不彰啦他那個時候只有裁發了七十幾件變了兩千多萬只有裁發七十幾件覺得成效不彰反正要提案刪除但後來因為你們也有溝通嘛覺得會好好做這個事情所以我們也沒有這個預算沒有處理但是網路上就在帶風向"},{"start":842.226,"end":862.956,"text":"說好像我們去監督這個預算就是支持黃牛說什麼以後大家有買到黃牛票就大家來找我我覺得這個台灣這個網路實在是太誇張了完全沒有就事論事空間從頭到尾我們在這邊就是把關預算認為這個導黃牛辦公室沒有積極扮演好它的成效那現在最新的資料是說才發了145件那部長你自己滿意嗎"},{"start":867.415,"end":880.19,"text":"我說不算滿意或者不滿意因為環遊的問題大家都知道在文創法裡面我們沒有直接可以限制票的買賣我們唯一做的就是"},{"start":881.693,"end":895.704,"text":"在最近做了一件比較有進步的事情就是約這六都的負責大場館的這種的人來開會希望他們在辦法上鼓勵實名制那這效果非常好文化部會補助經費"},{"start":898.152,"end":923.785,"text":"補助那些願意用實名制來辦演唱會的團體結果效果果然環流就下降像這種就是一個我們在法律上沒有不准他用這種方式販售環流的一個法我們只能用去檢舉那你也知道檢舉的過程非常繁複檢舉到之後我們整理完叫警政單位去抓他這個過程是很繁複的"},{"start":924.545,"end":947.896,"text":"那對於一個文化部來講他去管理黃牛這件事情是非常吃力的好 那個部長這個加油啦好不好大家都很對黃牛深惡痛絕啦而且預算給你們的我覺得就要不是說發包出去啦還是要盯一下啦希望他們可以積極的把黃牛的杜絕好不好讓大家可以不要多花冤枉錢好 謝謝謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":941,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時17分）你好，請文化部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["李部長遠：葉委員你好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。我跟你請教一下國立臺灣歷史博物館的問題，因為我看到業務報告也說臺灣歷史博物館要擴建。臺灣歷史博物館主要的設立宗旨，是文化部要辦理臺灣歷史與民俗文化相關文物、史料的蒐集、整理、保存跟研究，而且要展示跟推廣教育。剛剛你們的業務報告裡面也有講到，現在要啟動第二期的擴建計畫，114年如果能夠獲行政院核定，預計119年完工開放營運，要成為世界認識臺灣的首要窗口。它的目標是很宏大的，是首要窗口，就是說除了臺灣之外，其他國家想認識臺灣，都可以透過我們的國立臺灣歷史博物館，所以這個國立臺灣歷史博物館非常重要。","我就幾個面向來跟部長討論，第一個我想問，我們在國立臺灣歷史博物館的典藏裡面，看到范雲在2016年競選的文宣，當時他去攻擊他的對手蔣乃辛，提了三個問題，說你為什麼都不回答，然後這個文宣描述上當然是用非常正面的語氣，文宣正面質問對手國民黨蔣乃辛任立委時做的種種決定，背後論述人民為何應該要投給范雲，並有小野與蔣勳為其背書，有提到部長。我想問一下，為什麼歷史博物館會典藏這個東西？它的考慮是什麼？"],["李部長遠：你剛才講的這一段我並不知道，但也不是因為我是文化部長之後才收藏這個東西，據我了解……"],["葉委員元之：我覺得也不是啦！我只是問，因為我們這個東西是世界認識臺灣的首要窗口……"],["李部長遠：我想它很簡單，就是臺灣從戒嚴以後走入民主，民主運動是一個蠻重要的過程，假如各位沒有忘記的話，范雲當年是野百合的領袖，他是野百合占領中正紀念堂的領袖，後來出來從政。他後來被國民黨監視的歷史……大概是這樣。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝部長。所以你的意思是說，因為范雲特別重要，所以就典藏了他的文宣──去質問蔣乃辛，而且是2016年他的第一次選舉。好，謝謝。","我們來看下一個。這個是蔡英文總統跟陳建仁副總統可能第一次出來選總統的文宣。我想請教一下，這個文宣你們在歷史博物館裡面典藏了兩份，為什麼有的文宣你是典藏兩份？為什麼會典藏兩份？目的是什麼？"],["李部長遠：這點我……"],["葉委員元之：你也不清楚？"],["李部長遠：我必須承認我不知道。"],["葉委員元之：不知道？那文化部有沒有知道的人可以來幫部長回答一下？"],["李部長遠：今天我們有代表來。"],["莊副館長佩樺：委員好，我是臺灣歷史博物館副館長莊佩樺。其實我們有因應選舉去進行當代文物的蒐藏，就是經過委員的蒐審過程來確認這些文物是否入藏，有些文物可能背後有它不同的脈絡，典藏兩份的部分我可以再做確認，然後再跟委員做一個比較完整的報告。"],["葉委員元之：所以你也不曉得嘛？但是它就是有兩份啊！我們繼續看，因為我看了滿多的。這個是蔡英文「點亮臺灣」總統競選宣傳旗，有兩支。這個部分我是想請教一下，你們蒐藏文物之後要保存，那保存會維護嗎？比如說旗子如果有破損，那就是讓它繼續破損，還是說你們其實是有編織品維護人力去修復？狀況是怎麼樣？"],["李部長遠：我想用我的經驗來看，它跟一般的文物是一樣要保存的……"],["葉委員元之：對。"],["李部長遠：但是我得跟委員講一下我的想法。譬如說……"],["葉委員元之：沒有啦！部長，我的時間有限！你直接回答我的問題就好。我現在是問，因為這個東西很重要嘛！它是世界認識臺灣的首要窗口，所以我們當然要好好保存……"],["李部長遠：但是你把它……"],["葉委員元之：我的問題很簡單，就是它如果有破損，會不會有修復？"],["李部長遠：當然要修復。"],["葉委員元之：也會修復？那你們人力……"],["李部長遠：因為你簡化了蔡英文跟簡化了……我問你一個問題，像我去拜訪林義雄，他是一個受害者……"],["葉委員元之：今天不是你來質詢我啦！我的問題很簡單，我的問題只是說你會不會修復而已嘛！"],["李部長遠：他家裡擺了一大堆民主運動的資料，全部是競選的旗子，那你不能……"],["葉委員元之：部長，不要岔題啦！我的問題很簡單，部長，我到現在為止都沒有在……我只是在詢問。"],["李部長遠：因為你講……"],["葉委員元之：我想知道保存……我沒有說不能保存這個。"],["李部長遠：OK，那我有……"],["葉委員元之：我現在只是問說保存這個部分有沒有修復機制，你不要防禦心這麼強啦！"],["李部長遠：我當然很小心啊！"],["葉委員元之：我只是問有沒有修復機制！因為歷史博物館是認識臺灣的首要窗口。我沒有不讓你做這個事，我是問說你有沒有好好保存？"],["李部長遠：當然要好好保存。"],["葉委員元之：對嘛！要保存嘛！所以你們有編制多少人力在做維護的這件事情？後面那位……"],["李部長遠：有多少人？好。"],["葉委員元之：對啊！比如說織品如果有損壞，或者是有一些書面印刷有損壞，你們現在的編制修復人力是怎樣？"],["莊副館長佩樺：跟委員報告，囿於整個編制的問題，臺史博目前有兩位修復師。文物進場之前會先進行整飭，這部分會委外專業的廠商來進行。"],["葉委員元之：委外來進行就對了？"],["莊副館長佩樺：對，進行相關的整飭。"],["葉委員元之：是用委外的方式？"],["莊副館長佩樺：對。我們內部有兩位修復師，他們會進行必要的……"],["葉委員元之：兩位修復師？他是修復哪一類的？因為不同文物會有不同修復的技巧。"],["莊副館長佩樺：有一位是以紙質為主，然後一位是以木質為主。"],["葉委員元之：然後其他就委外嘛？"],["莊副館長佩樺：他們也都熟。"],["葉委員元之：好。下一頁，一樣，聯合報的頭版，2012年1月10號也是典藏兩份，這個問題剛剛沒辦法回答嘛，因為你不知道為什麼有的是典藏兩份以上，但是這個聯合報的典藏有兩個問題我想要就教一下部長。第一個，它這邊在文物描述的部分，特別提到主要經營人是曾任中國國民黨中央常務委員的王惕吾，另外聯合報在1992年曾因刊登中共中央政治局常務委員李瑞環的談話而引發退報運動。當然你們的講法一定會是說：「對啊！它就是客觀描述啊！的確創辦人是誰啊！的確有退報運動。」可是我這邊好奇的是，實際上聯合報的退報運動總共有3次，我們來看一下，不是只有李瑞環那一次。譬如說1960年他們因為挺雷震，堅守第四權，所以曾經引發時任總統蔣中正不悅，軍方發起退報運動，但是聯合報仍貫徹「正派辦報」，就是它退報其實有好幾次，但是你們在文物的描述上，專門把它1992年刊載中共中央政治局常務委員李瑞環的談話而引發退報運動寫在那邊，好像聯合報就只有這一次退報運動，而且它還是因為刊載了中共言論的關係被退報，我覺得是有偏頗啦！這是第一個問題，等一下一起回答。","第二個問題，因為歷史博物館可以把典藏的文物做授權，現在你典藏了聯合報的報紙，人家也可以來取得授權，可是理論上來講，聯合報的東西應該是屬於它個人的智慧財產權，那歷史博物館為什麼可以把別人的智慧財產權做授權的動作呢？以上兩個問題。"],["莊副館長佩樺：跟委員報告，有關文物的部分，當下研究員會去做相關資料的蒐整，然後經過審議委員來確認內容，如果當時候的內容不是很完整的話，他只會就當下的那個事件來做處理，如果未來我們在進行更深入的研究時，會再把相關的詮釋資料進行補註。"],["葉委員元之：不是啦！是下面對聯合報做敘述，其實這個文物典藏你不是描述文物本身，那個文物本身是2012年1月10號的內容，但是下面紅字我標出來的部分其實是你們對於聯合報的敘述。如果你要講退報運動，它有好幾次退報運動，但為什麼你就只講這一次？就偏頗啊！人家也曾經有挺雷震、堅守第四權而被退報，你不講，你只講說因為它有刊登過中共某一個人的談話，所以被退報，我覺得太偏頗了！歷史博物館既然是世界認識臺灣的窗口，不能偏頗，這是第一個，我希望你們可以調整，這可以吧？"],["莊副館長佩樺：好，謝謝委員，我們會補足相關的詮釋資料。"],["葉委員元之：部長你認同嗎？"],["李部長遠：我不但認同，還非常感謝你對聯合報這麼了解。如果就歷史來講，這3個時間都對，我們會把它補起來。"],["葉委員元之：對。"],["李部長遠：而且你知道嗎？你把它補起來之後，就會知道臺灣當初戒嚴是報禁，聯合報、中國時報可以賣到100萬份，後來漸漸報禁開放、報紙變很多之後，它的賣量變少，它的……"],["葉委員元之：部長，因為我的質詢時間有限，你講故事都講太久，其實我很喜歡聽，有一天我們可以請你喝個下午茶，你慢慢講給我聽，但是因為我們質詢時間有限，我們就針對重點好不好？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["葉委員元之：所以這個部分你們認同嘛，不能有偏頗啦！好不好？第二個授權的部分，為什麼可以代替聯合報去授權呢？"],["莊副館長佩樺：跟委員報告，著作權的原始人還是存續的話，我們不會主動做這個授權，我們只有做物的，比如說要借展才會有授權。這個部分如果是涉及內容引用的話，都還是要回到原來比如說聯合報……"],["葉委員元之：所以如果有智慧財產權，你們不會做授權？"],["莊副館長佩樺：對。"],["葉委員元之：這是你講的。好，再來，這個是民進黨建黨周年紀念錶，總共典藏了7支，你看，有7個登錄，這個錶是特別厲害還是怎麼樣？我是好奇啦！典藏了7支，是為什麼？"],["莊副館長佩樺：跟委員報告……"],["葉委員元之：我現在沒有在質疑你們是不是只弄民進黨的東西，沒有哦！我現在只是好奇這個錶厲害的地方在哪裡，還典藏了7支。"],["莊副館長佩樺：臺史博是晚近成立的博物館，我們有在積極地進行當代的蒐藏，很多其實是民間的捐贈，我們這邊會先就捐贈的物件做一些初步的審議。這個部分我也是需要再做確認，因為也許它……"],["葉委員元之：要確認？"],["莊副館長佩樺：因為剛才有報告，就是每一個文物其實有不同的脈絡跟後面的一些……"],["葉委員元之：真的每一支都一樣！"],["莊副館長佩樺：所以我必須要再確認一下當初這個入藏……"],["葉委員元之：你再確認好不好？乍看之下你也覺得很怪，但是我不為難你啦！你再去確認。再來，我覺得歷史博物館好像對於選舉的東西特別有興趣哦！連2000年陳水扁總統大選的礦泉水都有典藏，然後還有宣傳手機架、鑰匙圈、旗子、布條等等，這些選舉小物為什麼可以成為國家級典藏品？你到時候再一併說明。"],["莊副館長佩樺：跟委員報告，因應現在整個世界的潮流，就是當代議題的蒐藏，包括這些選舉或是疫情等等都會有一個初步的蒐藏。我們現在館內也有制定一個相關的分流制度……"],["葉委員元之：分流？"],["莊副館長佩樺：因為剛開始的時候制度還不完善……"],["葉委員元之：你是說剛開始的時候人家只要捐贈你就收是不是？"],["莊副館長佩樺：我們還是有經過審議。"],["葉委員元之：審議？"],["莊副館長佩樺：一開始時經過審議，納入了文物，但是我們現在開始……"],["葉委員元之：對，我現在就是問這個審議為什麼會這樣？它的標準是什麼？"],["莊副館長佩樺：我們是因應整個世界潮流，現在針對這些重要的議題其實都有當代蒐藏。"],["葉委員元之：OK，好，繼續，你剛剛說那些都很重要，像剛剛部長講范雲為什麼會被蒐藏，因為他太重要了。我想有參選過總統的人的東西應該也滿重要的，可是我們去搜尋關鍵詞「韓國瑜」跟「柯文哲」，就沒有任何的文物典藏，他的旗子、面紙或什麼小物通通都沒有，所以這個標準很怪！"],["莊副館長佩樺：跟委員報告，這些選舉物件主要都是來自於民間的捐贈，所以其實民間如果有捐贈，我們經過蒐審之後，就會……"],["葉委員元之：所以意思是說，因為韓粉跟柯粉沒有去捐贈，所以沒有？然後只要有捐贈，不管是捐贈1支、2支、3支、4支，甚至7支你都收？"],["莊副館長佩樺：我們還是有經過嚴謹的蒐審制度。"],["葉委員元之：嚴謹？那為什麼要7支？你還是回答不出來。"],["莊副館長佩樺：剛剛有講，它裡面的物件我剛剛有稍微看一下，其實它有一個套盒，是一個套件的概念。"],["葉委員元之：我認為捐贈應該還是要做一個篩選，好不好？再來，剛剛那個問題，如果你剛剛沒有辦法回答的，麻煩針對我剛剛的問題寫個報告給我。","最後，很快啦！部長應該都知道我們很關心打黃牛這件事情，本來我去年是有提案，因為打黃牛辦公室我認為成效不彰，它那個時候只有裁罰了七十幾件，編了兩千多萬，只有裁罰七十幾件，我覺得成效不彰，本來要提案刪除，但後來因為你們也有來溝通嘛！我覺得你們會好好做這個事情，所以這個預算就沒有處理。但是網路上就在帶風向，說好像我們去監督這個預算就是支持黃牛，什麼以後大家有買到黃牛票，就都來找我，我覺得臺灣網路實在是太誇張了，完全沒有就事論事的空間。從頭到尾我們在這邊就是把關預算，認為打黃牛辦公室沒有積極扮演好它的成效。現在最新的資料是說裁罰了145件，部長，你自己滿意嗎？"],["李部長遠：我說不上滿意或者不滿意，因為黃牛的問題大家都知道，在文創法裡面，我們沒有直接可以限制它票的買賣。我們在最近做了一件比較進步的事情，就是約六都負責大場館的人來開會，希望他們在辦法上鼓勵採用實名制，這個效果非常好。文化部會補助經費，補助那些願意用實名制來辦演唱會的團體，結果果然黃牛就下降了。像這個就是我們在法律上沒有不准它用這種方式販售黃牛票的一個法，我們只能用檢舉的方式，你也知道檢舉的過程非常繁複，檢舉之後，我們整理完到警政單位去抓它，這個過程是很繁複的，對於文化部來講，去管理黃牛這件事情是非常吃力的。"],["葉委員元之：好，部長加油啦！好不好？大家都對黃牛很深惡痛絕，而且預算給你們了，不是說就發包出去，還是要盯一下啦！希望你們可以積極地把黃牛杜絕，讓大家可以不要多花冤枉錢。好，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝葉元之委員，部長請回。","我們接下來請邱志偉、邱志偉委員、邱志偉不在。","陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜、陳培瑜委員不在。","我們請廖先翔、廖先翔、廖先翔委員不在。","我們請張嘉郡、張嘉郡、張嘉郡委員不在。","我們請鄭天財、鄭天財、鄭天財委員不在。","我們請蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","我們請賴惠員、賴惠員、賴惠員委員不在。","我們請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","我們請張啓楷、張啓楷、張啓楷委員不在。","今天登記質詢均已發言完畢。另有林倩綺委員、徐欣瑩委員、陳培瑜委員提出書面質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-4","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","劉書彬","葛如鈞","林月琴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳思瑤","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","葉元之","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00002"}}}