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{\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 609.876, \"end\": 609.956, \"score\": 0.719}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 609.956, \"end\": 610.176, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"落\", \"start\": 610.176, \"end\": 610.496, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 610.496, \"end\": 610.576, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 610.576, \"end\": 610.596, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 610.596, \"end\": 610.616, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 610.616, \"end\": 610.636, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,735 --> 00:00:08,922\n主席我想請賴次長賴次長\n\n2\n00:00:19,366 --> 00:00:43,855\n委員好市長早首先我要先感謝你多年來在水利領域的專業與奉獻尤其本席的家鄉雲林就受到次長許多的關心在水利署的時候推動了很多項的重大建設如前瞻基礎計畫中的水環境建設這些計畫大幅提升了我國的防洪跟供水的能力\n\n3\n00:00:44,655 --> 00:01:00,168\n為國人帶來更安全更優質的水環境所以我真的非常的感謝次長那剛剛呂玉玲委員有提出的這個部分其實本席也非常的好奇就是沸沸揚揚的水電雙長議題\n\n4\n00:01:03,030 --> 00:01:17,388\n那在上個禮拜五已經決定了動漲電價但是現在大家最最關心的就是那水價會不會漲呢那目前外界評估是說最快3月底會提出這個檢討方案那目前請問這個水價報告到底什麼時候會出爐呢\n\n5\n00:01:23,553 --> 00:01:48,265\n首先對於電的部分經過審議委會綜合的考量特別是國際的關稅的措施跟貿易的談判對我們現在的經濟的影響這不確信性太大了所以大家認為說為了穩定物價照顧民生甚至要維持產業的競爭力我們希望說這次的不調漲但是過去因為\n\n6\n00:01:53,289 --> 00:02:14,048\n11年開始連續的三年這個國際的燃料價格大漲讓台電公司背負承擔民生的這個部分幾乎有2600億總體有6000億這個部分過去委員會也通過了追加減預算那我們希望這個部分可以透過立法院的院會的支持讓台電的財務結構\n\n7\n00:02:16,670 --> 00:02:27,838\n是會更好基本上呢財務結構去調整我們都不反對我們希望的是他的能源結構也能調整應該是雙軌都可以並行嘛你一邊調整財務結構那你如果有調整能源結構的話我們再跟著一起來該撥補的解決真正解決問題而不是每年都靠撥補所以這一點也希望次長可以花一點心思那當然未來調整方向台水的部分\n\n8\n00:02:46,152 --> 00:03:15,325\n大家在說是不是有可能10度以下動漲呢次長您怎麼看就是10度以下動漲那其餘的用量分級去調補這個部分我們不預設立場優先的前提是要照顧民生不要影響物價甚至造成通膨任何一個沒有經過仔細的規劃而大家突然間去設想出來的東西難免會有一些的預期心理\n\n9\n00:03:15,885 --> 00:03:39,385\n所以我們基本上希望剛剛台水公司有說今天會送出來的評估報告我們會去前面性的去檢視在公司的經營上面部長多次的指示我們在不管是開源跟節流的部分都要而努力台電公司從去年年底開始來盤點今年我先再回到這個自然水好了\n\n10\n00:03:40,026 --> 00:04:07,330\n因為台電過去為了要節能的部分他們有補助像節能家電一樣那自來水現在如果假設也要漲價然後也要來節水的話是不是也可以導入節水設備的更新補助呢這個過去我們曾經實施過那委員所提的這個意見我們未來再整體評估台水公司所提出來的報告我們會請水利署跟台水公司納入考量\n\n11\n00:04:09,096 --> 00:04:20,103\n這點請次長能夠用心關心一下那因為另外針對學校還有老人長照機構等公益的社福設施有沒有可能假設要講納入這個動長的機制呢\n\n12\n00:04:24,045 --> 00:04:41,623\n基本上穩定民生照顧弱勢一直是我們各個分析事業所以這個方向是我們會考量這些的因素那目前其實就像次長講的最基礎的民生部分我們不是反對合理的反應成本\n\n13\n00:04:41,983 --> 00:05:02,641\n那必須要有一個透明的時程完整的評估充分的說明那最重要的是到目前為止台水的漏水率還在11至12%中間等於每年會漏掉一個10門水庫那麼多的水那所以與其漲價本席建議不如先補漏洞否則呢\n\n14\n00:05:03,362 --> 00:05:27,318\n民眾也會覺得說節水就是在懲罰這些守規矩的人這一點愛琴部長跟自來水公司用心台水公司自從實施第一期的降漏計畫之後我們從過去漏水率超過20%那現在已經降到11%左右是有希望可以繼續的行政院左院長也提到降漏\n\n15\n00:05:28,348 --> 00:05:52,811\n是一個重大的目標沒錯所以我們在114年的時候也透過立法院的這個支持在公務預算的部分來投資台水公司啊來讓他去做這個漏水利改善的事情那我們中期的目標是希望他降到一個百分之十以下的這個目標目標是百分之十以下這樣你們離目標太近了吧因為現在11你要降到百分之十\n\n16\n00:05:53,191 --> 00:06:12,259\n可不可以委員那個台水公司的管線這密如好像我們人體的血管一樣他當他改善到最後的話進入到高原期的話他每投資一塊錢他改善的這個效果慢慢就會進入到高原期趨緩的一個狀況本席知道說經濟部在113年\n\n17\n00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:26,447\n提出了因應氣候變遷縣市管河川及排水整體改善計畫是從115年到120年總經費是1000億請教這一次5年1000億治水您覺得這樣夠嗎治水我剛剛有講到說沒有最好只有更好\n\n18\n00:06:37,062 --> 00:07:03,748\n那各縣市的這個治水的需求委員會各國委員都非常知道那我們基本上這是一個五年的計畫那我們希望透過但是認為不夠啦不夠應該再提啦提高一點波普台電就已經四年三千億了今年還想要再一千億明年還想要一千億台電一個人就花了五千億跟真正應該做的治水工作才給一千億太少了吧\n\n19\n00:07:04,970 --> 00:07:27,592\n所以我們經濟部希望經濟部所提的各個計畫委員會都可以支持我們是當然一定要支持這個治水計畫我只是覺得說太客氣了台電一個人開要五千億五千億開不夠要讓他開五千億他一個人要花一兆然後真正民眾每天擔心說我的田會不會被淹我的房子會不會被淹結果\n\n20\n00:07:29,995 --> 00:07:38,101\n才1000億所以國發會已經通過了可是我覺得真的不夠啦所以次長麻煩你再爭取一下好不好我們繼續來努力爭取那今天我們討論的這個防洪抗旱其實都是以地方出發想要照顧地方照顧這些民生\n\n21\n00:07:50,572 --> 00:08:08,290\n那以雲林縣為例問題的本質從來就不是單一的設施或者是事件而是與地勢、地層、財政、極端氣候交織之下的這個結構性問題所以因此我們希望說經濟部能在這個優先治理的順序中將雲林納入這個高風險優先治理的縣市給予強化的支持\n\n22\n00:08:14,616 --> 00:08:32,883\n所以我們不但是在工程面提預算之外現在行政院成立水及流域永續推動小組如我剛剛的報告中那我們未來會透過空間突起的套點把這些剛剛委員所提到的重點應該治理的地區把它抓出來優先投入經費\n\n23\n00:08:33,962 --> 00:08:47,173\n是尤其其實雲林縣的沿海地區過去您也常常去那包括水林口湖台西四湖甚至園長我們都設置了不少的這個大型的抽水站但是因應氣候變遷強降雨等等那短時間內的這個強降雨都是\n\n24\n00:08:52,377 --> 00:09:19,210\n標非常的高那水利署是不是也能夠再加大下游的這個排水量是不是這個看能不能增加他的這個每秒鐘的這個CMS的量這一點是不是可以請次長支持我們同意委員的這個建議然後目前我們也在請地方政府依照這個原則也就是我們今天報告所提到的不對稱的治理在沿海或是河川的下游地區\n\n25\n00:09:20,290 --> 00:09:26,989\n然後他的通紅促進他的通紅能力加大抽水站的能量這個是我們的目標\n\n26\n00:09:27,708 --> 00:09:49,684\n好這一點也要特別拜託次長畢竟您是這個水利專家我相信您一定有辦法把這個監督落實完成那當然剛才您強調的這個水及流域永續推動小組是由經濟部農業部環境部跟內政部來組成那我們也希望說這個小組應該要有跨部會整合資源的實權\n\n27\n00:09:51,545 --> 00:10:10,636\n例如說治理這個經費的優先順序計畫審查的簡化權限或者就是你如果沒有一個統籌的單位的話太可惜了那你還是各自為政我們也希望說推薦經濟部由賴次長是不是來做這個主導來統籌這些資源來落實這個機制謝謝委員的建議謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7735\t8922\t主席我想請賴次長賴次長\n19366\t43855\t委員好市長早首先我要先感謝你多年來在水利領域的專業與奉獻尤其本席的家鄉雲林就受到次長許多的關心在水利署的時候推動了很多項的重大建設如前瞻基礎計畫中的水環境建設這些計畫大幅提升了我國的防洪跟供水的能力\n44655\t60168\t為國人帶來更安全更優質的水環境所以我真的非常的感謝次長那剛剛呂玉玲委員有提出的這個部分其實本席也非常的好奇就是沸沸揚揚的水電雙長議題\n63030\t77388\t那在上個禮拜五已經決定了動漲電價但是現在大家最最關心的就是那水價會不會漲呢那目前外界評估是說最快3月底會提出這個檢討方案那目前請問這個水價報告到底什麼時候會出爐呢\n83553\t108265\t首先對於電的部分經過審議委會綜合的考量特別是國際的關稅的措施跟貿易的談判對我們現在的經濟的影響這不確信性太大了所以大家認為說為了穩定物價照顧民生甚至要維持產業的競爭力我們希望說這次的不調漲但是過去因為\n113289\t134048\t11年開始連續的三年這個國際的燃料價格大漲讓台電公司背負承擔民生的這個部分幾乎有2600億總體有6000億這個部分過去委員會也通過了追加減預算那我們希望這個部分可以透過立法院的院會的支持讓台電的財務結構\n136670\t147838\t是會更好 基本上呢財務結構去調整我們都不反對我們希望的是他的能源結構也能調整應該是雙軌都可以並行嘛你一邊調整財務結構那你如果有調整能源結構的話我們再跟著一起來該撥補的解決真正解決問題而不是每年都靠撥補所以這一點也希望次長可以花一點心思那當然未來調整方向 台水的部分\n166152\t195325\t大家在說是不是有可能10度以下動漲呢次長您怎麼看就是10度以下動漲那其餘的用量分級去調補這個部分我們不預設立場優先的前提是要照顧民生不要影響物價甚至造成通膨任何一個沒有經過仔細的規劃而大家突然間去設想出來的東西難免會有一些的預期心理\n195885\t219385\t所以我們基本上希望剛剛台水公司有說今天會送出來的評估報告我們會去前面性的去檢視在公司的經營上面部長多次的指示我們在不管是開源跟節流的部分都要而努力台電公司從去年年底開始來盤點今年我先再回到這個自然水好了\n220026\t247330\t因為台電過去為了要節能的部分他們有補助像節能家電一樣那自來水現在如果假設也要漲價然後也要來節水的話是不是也可以導入節水設備的更新補助呢這個過去我們曾經實施過那委員所提的這個意見我們未來再整體評估台水公司所提出來的報告我們會請水利署跟台水公司納入考量\n249096\t260103\t這點請次長能夠用心關心一下那因為另外針對學校還有老人長照機構等公益的社福設施有沒有可能假設要講納入這個動長的機制呢\n264045\t281623\t基本上穩定民生照顧弱勢一直是我們各個分析事業所以這個方向是我們會考量這些的因素那目前其實就像次長講的最基礎的民生部分我們不是反對合理的反應成本\n281983\t302641\t那必須要有一個透明的時程完整的評估充分的說明那最重要的是到目前為止台水的漏水率還在11至12%中間等於每年會漏掉一個10門水庫那麼多的水那所以與其漲價本席建議不如先補漏洞否則呢\n303362\t327318\t民眾也會覺得說 節水就是在懲罰這些守規矩的人這一點愛琴部長跟自來水公司用心台水公司自從實施第一期的降漏計畫之後我們從過去漏水率超過20%那現在已經降到11%左右是 有希望可以繼續的行政院 左院長也提到降漏\n328348\t352811\t是一個重大的目標沒錯所以我們在114年的時候也透過立法院的這個支持在公務預算的部分來投資台水公司啊來讓他去做這個漏水利改善的事情那我們中期的目標是希望他降到一個百分之十以下的這個目標目標是百分之十以下這樣你們離目標太近了吧因為現在11你要降到百分之十\n353191\t372259\t可不可以 委員那個台水公司的管線這密如好像我們人體的血管一樣他當他改善到最後的話進入到高原期的話他每投資一塊錢他改善的這個效果慢慢就會進入到高原期 趨緩的一個狀況本席知道說經濟部在113年\n374600\t386447\t提出了因應氣候變遷縣市管河川及排水整體改善計畫是從115年到120年總經費是1000億請教這一次5年1000億治水您覺得這樣夠嗎治水我剛剛有講到說沒有最好只有更好\n397062\t423748\t那各縣市的這個治水的需求委員會各國委員都非常知道那我們基本上這是一個五年的計畫那我們希望透過 但是認為不夠啦不夠應該再提啦 提高一點波普台電就已經四年三千億了今年還想要再一千億 明年還想要一千億台電一個人就花了五千億跟真正應該做的治水工作才給一千億 太少了吧\n424970\t447592\t所以我們經濟部希望經濟部所提的各個計畫委員會都可以支持我們是當然一定要支持這個治水計畫我只是覺得說太客氣了 台電一個人開要五千億 五千億開不夠 要讓他開五千億他一個人要花一兆 然後真正民眾每天擔心說我的田會不會被淹我的房子會不會被淹 結果\n449995\t458101\t才1000億所以國發會已經通過了可是我覺得真的不夠啦所以次長麻煩你再爭取一下好不好我們繼續來努力爭取那今天我們討論的這個防洪抗旱其實都是以地方出發想要照顧地方照顧這些民生\n470572\t488290\t那以雲林縣為例問題的本質從來就不是單一的設施或者是事件而是與地勢、地層、財政、極端氣候交織之下的這個結構性問題所以因此我們希望說經濟部能在這個優先治理的順序中將雲林納入這個高風險優先治理的縣市給予強化的支持\n494616\t512883\t所以我們不但是在工程面提預算之外現在行政院成立水及流域永續推動小組 如我剛剛的報告中那我們未來會透過空間突起的套點把這些剛剛委員所提到的重點應該治理的地區把它抓出來優先投入經費\n513962\t527173\t是 尤其其實雲林縣的沿海地區過去您也常常去那包括水林口湖台西四湖甚至園長我們都設置了不少的這個大型的抽水站但是因應氣候變遷強降雨等等那短時間內的這個強降雨都是\n532377\t559210\t標非常的高那水利署是不是也能夠再加大下游的這個排水量是不是這個看能不能增加他的這個每秒鐘的這個CMS的量這一點是不是可以請次長支持我們同意委員的這個建議然後目前我們也在請地方政府依照這個原則也就是我們今天報告所提到的不對稱的治理在沿海或是河川的下游地區\n560290\t566989\t然後他的通紅 促進他的通紅能力加大抽水站的能量 這個是我們的目標\n567708\t589684\t好這一點也要特別拜託次長畢竟您是這個水利專家我相信您一定有辦法把這個監督落實完成那當然剛才您強調的這個水及流域永續推動小組是由經濟部農業部環境部跟內政部來組成那我們也希望說這個小組應該要有跨部會整合資源的實權\n591545\t610636\t例如說治理這個經費的優先順序計畫審查的簡化權限或者就是你如果沒有一個統籌的單位的話太可惜了那你還是各自為政我們也希望說推薦經濟部由賴次長是不是來做這個主導來統籌這些資源來落實這個機制謝謝委員的建議謝謝\n","txt":"主席我想請賴次長賴次長\n委員好市長早首先我要先感謝你多年來在水利領域的專業與奉獻尤其本席的家鄉雲林就受到次長許多的關心在水利署的時候推動了很多項的重大建設如前瞻基礎計畫中的水環境建設這些計畫大幅提升了我國的防洪跟供水的能力\n為國人帶來更安全更優質的水環境所以我真的非常的感謝次長那剛剛呂玉玲委員有提出的這個部分其實本席也非常的好奇就是沸沸揚揚的水電雙長議題\n那在上個禮拜五已經決定了動漲電價但是現在大家最最關心的就是那水價會不會漲呢那目前外界評估是說最快3月底會提出這個檢討方案那目前請問這個水價報告到底什麼時候會出爐呢\n首先對於電的部分經過審議委會綜合的考量特別是國際的關稅的措施跟貿易的談判對我們現在的經濟的影響這不確信性太大了所以大家認為說為了穩定物價照顧民生甚至要維持產業的競爭力我們希望說這次的不調漲但是過去因為\n11年開始連續的三年這個國際的燃料價格大漲讓台電公司背負承擔民生的這個部分幾乎有2600億總體有6000億這個部分過去委員會也通過了追加減預算那我們希望這個部分可以透過立法院的院會的支持讓台電的財務結構\n是會更好 基本上呢財務結構去調整我們都不反對我們希望的是他的能源結構也能調整應該是雙軌都可以並行嘛你一邊調整財務結構那你如果有調整能源結構的話我們再跟著一起來該撥補的解決真正解決問題而不是每年都靠撥補所以這一點也希望次長可以花一點心思那當然未來調整方向 台水的部分\n大家在說是不是有可能10度以下動漲呢次長您怎麼看就是10度以下動漲那其餘的用量分級去調補這個部分我們不預設立場優先的前提是要照顧民生不要影響物價甚至造成通膨任何一個沒有經過仔細的規劃而大家突然間去設想出來的東西難免會有一些的預期心理\n所以我們基本上希望剛剛台水公司有說今天會送出來的評估報告我們會去前面性的去檢視在公司的經營上面部長多次的指示我們在不管是開源跟節流的部分都要而努力台電公司從去年年底開始來盤點今年我先再回到這個自然水好了\n因為台電過去為了要節能的部分他們有補助像節能家電一樣那自來水現在如果假設也要漲價然後也要來節水的話是不是也可以導入節水設備的更新補助呢這個過去我們曾經實施過那委員所提的這個意見我們未來再整體評估台水公司所提出來的報告我們會請水利署跟台水公司納入考量\n這點請次長能夠用心關心一下那因為另外針對學校還有老人長照機構等公益的社福設施有沒有可能假設要講納入這個動長的機制呢\n基本上穩定民生照顧弱勢一直是我們各個分析事業所以這個方向是我們會考量這些的因素那目前其實就像次長講的最基礎的民生部分我們不是反對合理的反應成本\n那必須要有一個透明的時程完整的評估充分的說明那最重要的是到目前為止台水的漏水率還在11至12%中間等於每年會漏掉一個10門水庫那麼多的水那所以與其漲價本席建議不如先補漏洞否則呢\n民眾也會覺得說 節水就是在懲罰這些守規矩的人這一點愛琴部長跟自來水公司用心台水公司自從實施第一期的降漏計畫之後我們從過去漏水率超過20%那現在已經降到11%左右是 有希望可以繼續的行政院 左院長也提到降漏\n是一個重大的目標沒錯所以我們在114年的時候也透過立法院的這個支持在公務預算的部分來投資台水公司啊來讓他去做這個漏水利改善的事情那我們中期的目標是希望他降到一個百分之十以下的這個目標目標是百分之十以下這樣你們離目標太近了吧因為現在11你要降到百分之十\n可不可以 委員那個台水公司的管線這密如好像我們人體的血管一樣他當他改善到最後的話進入到高原期的話他每投資一塊錢他改善的這個效果慢慢就會進入到高原期 趨緩的一個狀況本席知道說經濟部在113年\n提出了因應氣候變遷縣市管河川及排水整體改善計畫是從115年到120年總經費是1000億請教這一次5年1000億治水您覺得這樣夠嗎治水我剛剛有講到說沒有最好只有更好\n那各縣市的這個治水的需求委員會各國委員都非常知道那我們基本上這是一個五年的計畫那我們希望透過 但是認為不夠啦不夠應該再提啦 提高一點波普台電就已經四年三千億了今年還想要再一千億 明年還想要一千億台電一個人就花了五千億跟真正應該做的治水工作才給一千億 太少了吧\n所以我們經濟部希望經濟部所提的各個計畫委員會都可以支持我們是當然一定要支持這個治水計畫我只是覺得說太客氣了 台電一個人開要五千億 五千億開不夠 要讓他開五千億他一個人要花一兆 然後真正民眾每天擔心說我的田會不會被淹我的房子會不會被淹 結果\n才1000億所以國發會已經通過了可是我覺得真的不夠啦所以次長麻煩你再爭取一下好不好我們繼續來努力爭取那今天我們討論的這個防洪抗旱其實都是以地方出發想要照顧地方照顧這些民生\n那以雲林縣為例問題的本質從來就不是單一的設施或者是事件而是與地勢、地層、財政、極端氣候交織之下的這個結構性問題所以因此我們希望說經濟部能在這個優先治理的順序中將雲林納入這個高風險優先治理的縣市給予強化的支持\n所以我們不但是在工程面提預算之外現在行政院成立水及流域永續推動小組 如我剛剛的報告中那我們未來會透過空間突起的套點把這些剛剛委員所提到的重點應該治理的地區把它抓出來優先投入經費\n是 尤其其實雲林縣的沿海地區過去您也常常去那包括水林口湖台西四湖甚至園長我們都設置了不少的這個大型的抽水站但是因應氣候變遷強降雨等等那短時間內的這個強降雨都是\n標非常的高那水利署是不是也能夠再加大下游的這個排水量是不是這個看能不能增加他的這個每秒鐘的這個CMS的量這一點是不是可以請次長支持我們同意委員的這個建議然後目前我們也在請地方政府依照這個原則也就是我們今天報告所提到的不對稱的治理在沿海或是河川的下游地區\n然後他的通紅 促進他的通紅能力加大抽水站的能量 這個是我們的目標\n好這一點也要特別拜託次長畢竟您是這個水利專家我相信您一定有辦法把這個監督落實完成那當然剛才您強調的這個水及流域永續推動小組是由經濟部農業部環境部跟內政部來組成那我們也希望說這個小組應該要有跨部會整合資源的實權\n例如說治理這個經費的優先順序計畫審查的簡化權限或者就是你如果沒有一個統籌的單位的話太可惜了那你還是各自為政我們也希望說推薦經濟部由賴次長是不是來做這個主導來統籌這些資源來落實這個機制謝謝委員的建議謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.735 --> 00:08.922\n主席我想請賴次長賴次長\n\n00:19.366 --> 00:43.855\n委員好市長早首先我要先感謝你多年來在水利領域的專業與奉獻尤其本席的家鄉雲林就受到次長許多的關心在水利署的時候推動了很多項的重大建設如前瞻基礎計畫中的水環境建設這些計畫大幅提升了我國的防洪跟供水的能力\n\n00:44.655 --> 01:00.168\n為國人帶來更安全更優質的水環境所以我真的非常的感謝次長那剛剛呂玉玲委員有提出的這個部分其實本席也非常的好奇就是沸沸揚揚的水電雙長議題\n\n01:03.030 --> 01:17.388\n那在上個禮拜五已經決定了動漲電價但是現在大家最最關心的就是那水價會不會漲呢那目前外界評估是說最快3月底會提出這個檢討方案那目前請問這個水價報告到底什麼時候會出爐呢\n\n01:23.553 --> 01:48.265\n首先對於電的部分經過審議委會綜合的考量特別是國際的關稅的措施跟貿易的談判對我們現在的經濟的影響這不確信性太大了所以大家認為說為了穩定物價照顧民生甚至要維持產業的競爭力我們希望說這次的不調漲但是過去因為\n\n01:53.289 --> 02:14.048\n11年開始連續的三年這個國際的燃料價格大漲讓台電公司背負承擔民生的這個部分幾乎有2600億總體有6000億這個部分過去委員會也通過了追加減預算那我們希望這個部分可以透過立法院的院會的支持讓台電的財務結構\n\n02:16.670 --> 02:27.838\n是會更好基本上呢財務結構去調整我們都不反對我們希望的是他的能源結構也能調整應該是雙軌都可以並行嘛你一邊調整財務結構那你如果有調整能源結構的話我們再跟著一起來該撥補的解決真正解決問題而不是每年都靠撥補所以這一點也希望次長可以花一點心思那當然未來調整方向台水的部分\n\n02:46.152 --> 03:15.325\n大家在說是不是有可能10度以下動漲呢次長您怎麼看就是10度以下動漲那其餘的用量分級去調補這個部分我們不預設立場優先的前提是要照顧民生不要影響物價甚至造成通膨任何一個沒有經過仔細的規劃而大家突然間去設想出來的東西難免會有一些的預期心理\n\n03:15.885 --> 03:39.385\n所以我們基本上希望剛剛台水公司有說今天會送出來的評估報告我們會去前面性的去檢視在公司的經營上面部長多次的指示我們在不管是開源跟節流的部分都要而努力台電公司從去年年底開始來盤點今年我先再回到這個自然水好了\n\n03:40.026 --> 04:07.330\n因為台電過去為了要節能的部分他們有補助像節能家電一樣那自來水現在如果假設也要漲價然後也要來節水的話是不是也可以導入節水設備的更新補助呢這個過去我們曾經實施過那委員所提的這個意見我們未來再整體評估台水公司所提出來的報告我們會請水利署跟台水公司納入考量\n\n04:09.096 --> 04:20.103\n這點請次長能夠用心關心一下那因為另外針對學校還有老人長照機構等公益的社福設施有沒有可能假設要講納入這個動長的機制呢\n\n04:24.045 --> 04:41.623\n基本上穩定民生照顧弱勢一直是我們各個分析事業所以這個方向是我們會考量這些的因素那目前其實就像次長講的最基礎的民生部分我們不是反對合理的反應成本\n\n04:41.983 --> 05:02.641\n那必須要有一個透明的時程完整的評估充分的說明那最重要的是到目前為止台水的漏水率還在11至12%中間等於每年會漏掉一個10門水庫那麼多的水那所以與其漲價本席建議不如先補漏洞否則呢\n\n05:03.362 --> 05:27.318\n民眾也會覺得說節水就是在懲罰這些守規矩的人這一點愛琴部長跟自來水公司用心台水公司自從實施第一期的降漏計畫之後我們從過去漏水率超過20%那現在已經降到11%左右是有希望可以繼續的行政院左院長也提到降漏\n\n05:28.348 --> 05:52.811\n是一個重大的目標沒錯所以我們在114年的時候也透過立法院的這個支持在公務預算的部分來投資台水公司啊來讓他去做這個漏水利改善的事情那我們中期的目標是希望他降到一個百分之十以下的這個目標目標是百分之十以下這樣你們離目標太近了吧因為現在11你要降到百分之十\n\n05:53.191 --> 06:12.259\n可不可以委員那個台水公司的管線這密如好像我們人體的血管一樣他當他改善到最後的話進入到高原期的話他每投資一塊錢他改善的這個效果慢慢就會進入到高原期趨緩的一個狀況本席知道說經濟部在113年\n\n06:14.600 --> 06:26.447\n提出了因應氣候變遷縣市管河川及排水整體改善計畫是從115年到120年總經費是1000億請教這一次5年1000億治水您覺得這樣夠嗎治水我剛剛有講到說沒有最好只有更好\n\n06:37.062 --> 07:03.748\n那各縣市的這個治水的需求委員會各國委員都非常知道那我們基本上這是一個五年的計畫那我們希望透過但是認為不夠啦不夠應該再提啦提高一點波普台電就已經四年三千億了今年還想要再一千億明年還想要一千億台電一個人就花了五千億跟真正應該做的治水工作才給一千億太少了吧\n\n07:04.970 --> 07:27.592\n所以我們經濟部希望經濟部所提的各個計畫委員會都可以支持我們是當然一定要支持這個治水計畫我只是覺得說太客氣了台電一個人開要五千億五千億開不夠要讓他開五千億他一個人要花一兆然後真正民眾每天擔心說我的田會不會被淹我的房子會不會被淹結果\n\n07:29.995 --> 07:38.101\n才1000億所以國發會已經通過了可是我覺得真的不夠啦所以次長麻煩你再爭取一下好不好我們繼續來努力爭取那今天我們討論的這個防洪抗旱其實都是以地方出發想要照顧地方照顧這些民生\n\n07:50.572 --> 08:08.290\n那以雲林縣為例問題的本質從來就不是單一的設施或者是事件而是與地勢、地層、財政、極端氣候交織之下的這個結構性問題所以因此我們希望說經濟部能在這個優先治理的順序中將雲林納入這個高風險優先治理的縣市給予強化的支持\n\n08:14.616 --> 08:32.883\n所以我們不但是在工程面提預算之外現在行政院成立水及流域永續推動小組如我剛剛的報告中那我們未來會透過空間突起的套點把這些剛剛委員所提到的重點應該治理的地區把它抓出來優先投入經費\n\n08:33.962 --> 08:47.173\n是尤其其實雲林縣的沿海地區過去您也常常去那包括水林口湖台西四湖甚至園長我們都設置了不少的這個大型的抽水站但是因應氣候變遷強降雨等等那短時間內的這個強降雨都是\n\n08:52.377 --> 09:19.210\n標非常的高那水利署是不是也能夠再加大下游的這個排水量是不是這個看能不能增加他的這個每秒鐘的這個CMS的量這一點是不是可以請次長支持我們同意委員的這個建議然後目前我們也在請地方政府依照這個原則也就是我們今天報告所提到的不對稱的治理在沿海或是河川的下游地區\n\n09:20.290 --> 09:26.989\n然後他的通紅促進他的通紅能力加大抽水站的能量這個是我們的目標\n\n09:27.708 --> 09:49.684\n好這一點也要特別拜託次長畢竟您是這個水利專家我相信您一定有辦法把這個監督落實完成那當然剛才您強調的這個水及流域永續推動小組是由經濟部農業部環境部跟內政部來組成那我們也希望說這個小組應該要有跨部會整合資源的實權\n\n09:51.545 --> 10:10.636\n例如說治理這個經費的優先順序計畫審查的簡化權限或者就是你如果沒有一個統籌的單位的話太可惜了那你還是各自為政我們也希望說推薦經濟部由賴次長是不是來做這個主導來統籌這些資源來落實這個機制謝謝委員的建議謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.735,"end":8.922,"text":"主席我想請賴次長賴次長"},{"start":19.366,"end":43.855,"text":"委員好市長早首先我要先感謝你多年來在水利領域的專業與奉獻尤其本席的家鄉雲林就受到次長許多的關心在水利署的時候推動了很多項的重大建設如前瞻基礎計畫中的水環境建設這些計畫大幅提升了我國的防洪跟供水的能力"},{"start":44.655,"end":60.168,"text":"為國人帶來更安全更優質的水環境所以我真的非常的感謝次長那剛剛呂玉玲委員有提出的這個部分其實本席也非常的好奇就是沸沸揚揚的水電雙長議題"},{"start":63.03,"end":77.388,"text":"那在上個禮拜五已經決定了動漲電價但是現在大家最最關心的就是那水價會不會漲呢那目前外界評估是說最快3月底會提出這個檢討方案那目前請問這個水價報告到底什麼時候會出爐呢"},{"start":83.553,"end":108.265,"text":"首先對於電的部分經過審議委會綜合的考量特別是國際的關稅的措施跟貿易的談判對我們現在的經濟的影響這不確信性太大了所以大家認為說為了穩定物價照顧民生甚至要維持產業的競爭力我們希望說這次的不調漲但是過去因為"},{"start":113.289,"end":134.048,"text":"11年開始連續的三年這個國際的燃料價格大漲讓台電公司背負承擔民生的這個部分幾乎有2600億總體有6000億這個部分過去委員會也通過了追加減預算那我們希望這個部分可以透過立法院的院會的支持讓台電的財務結構"},{"start":136.67,"end":147.838,"text":"是會更好 基本上呢財務結構去調整我們都不反對我們希望的是他的能源結構也能調整應該是雙軌都可以並行嘛你一邊調整財務結構那你如果有調整能源結構的話我們再跟著一起來該撥補的解決真正解決問題而不是每年都靠撥補所以這一點也希望次長可以花一點心思那當然未來調整方向 台水的部分"},{"start":166.152,"end":195.325,"text":"大家在說是不是有可能10度以下動漲呢次長您怎麼看就是10度以下動漲那其餘的用量分級去調補這個部分我們不預設立場優先的前提是要照顧民生不要影響物價甚至造成通膨任何一個沒有經過仔細的規劃而大家突然間去設想出來的東西難免會有一些的預期心理"},{"start":195.885,"end":219.385,"text":"所以我們基本上希望剛剛台水公司有說今天會送出來的評估報告我們會去前面性的去檢視在公司的經營上面部長多次的指示我們在不管是開源跟節流的部分都要而努力台電公司從去年年底開始來盤點今年我先再回到這個自然水好了"},{"start":220.026,"end":247.33,"text":"因為台電過去為了要節能的部分他們有補助像節能家電一樣那自來水現在如果假設也要漲價然後也要來節水的話是不是也可以導入節水設備的更新補助呢這個過去我們曾經實施過那委員所提的這個意見我們未來再整體評估台水公司所提出來的報告我們會請水利署跟台水公司納入考量"},{"start":249.096,"end":260.103,"text":"這點請次長能夠用心關心一下那因為另外針對學校還有老人長照機構等公益的社福設施有沒有可能假設要講納入這個動長的機制呢"},{"start":264.045,"end":281.623,"text":"基本上穩定民生照顧弱勢一直是我們各個分析事業所以這個方向是我們會考量這些的因素那目前其實就像次長講的最基礎的民生部分我們不是反對合理的反應成本"},{"start":281.983,"end":302.641,"text":"那必須要有一個透明的時程完整的評估充分的說明那最重要的是到目前為止台水的漏水率還在11至12%中間等於每年會漏掉一個10門水庫那麼多的水那所以與其漲價本席建議不如先補漏洞否則呢"},{"start":303.362,"end":327.318,"text":"民眾也會覺得說 節水就是在懲罰這些守規矩的人這一點愛琴部長跟自來水公司用心台水公司自從實施第一期的降漏計畫之後我們從過去漏水率超過20%那現在已經降到11%左右是 有希望可以繼續的行政院 左院長也提到降漏"},{"start":328.348,"end":352.811,"text":"是一個重大的目標沒錯所以我們在114年的時候也透過立法院的這個支持在公務預算的部分來投資台水公司啊來讓他去做這個漏水利改善的事情那我們中期的目標是希望他降到一個百分之十以下的這個目標目標是百分之十以下這樣你們離目標太近了吧因為現在11你要降到百分之十"},{"start":353.191,"end":372.259,"text":"可不可以 委員那個台水公司的管線這密如好像我們人體的血管一樣他當他改善到最後的話進入到高原期的話他每投資一塊錢他改善的這個效果慢慢就會進入到高原期 趨緩的一個狀況本席知道說經濟部在113年"},{"start":374.6,"end":386.447,"text":"提出了因應氣候變遷縣市管河川及排水整體改善計畫是從115年到120年總經費是1000億請教這一次5年1000億治水您覺得這樣夠嗎治水我剛剛有講到說沒有最好只有更好"},{"start":397.062,"end":423.748,"text":"那各縣市的這個治水的需求委員會各國委員都非常知道那我們基本上這是一個五年的計畫那我們希望透過 但是認為不夠啦不夠應該再提啦 提高一點波普台電就已經四年三千億了今年還想要再一千億 明年還想要一千億台電一個人就花了五千億跟真正應該做的治水工作才給一千億 太少了吧"},{"start":424.97,"end":447.592,"text":"所以我們經濟部希望經濟部所提的各個計畫委員會都可以支持我們是當然一定要支持這個治水計畫我只是覺得說太客氣了 台電一個人開要五千億 五千億開不夠 要讓他開五千億他一個人要花一兆 然後真正民眾每天擔心說我的田會不會被淹我的房子會不會被淹 結果"},{"start":449.995,"end":458.101,"text":"才1000億所以國發會已經通過了可是我覺得真的不夠啦所以次長麻煩你再爭取一下好不好我們繼續來努力爭取那今天我們討論的這個防洪抗旱其實都是以地方出發想要照顧地方照顧這些民生"},{"start":470.572,"end":488.29,"text":"那以雲林縣為例問題的本質從來就不是單一的設施或者是事件而是與地勢、地層、財政、極端氣候交織之下的這個結構性問題所以因此我們希望說經濟部能在這個優先治理的順序中將雲林納入這個高風險優先治理的縣市給予強化的支持"},{"start":494.616,"end":512.883,"text":"所以我們不但是在工程面提預算之外現在行政院成立水及流域永續推動小組 如我剛剛的報告中那我們未來會透過空間突起的套點把這些剛剛委員所提到的重點應該治理的地區把它抓出來優先投入經費"},{"start":513.962,"end":527.173,"text":"是 尤其其實雲林縣的沿海地區過去您也常常去那包括水林口湖台西四湖甚至園長我們都設置了不少的這個大型的抽水站但是因應氣候變遷強降雨等等那短時間內的這個強降雨都是"},{"start":532.377,"end":559.21,"text":"標非常的高那水利署是不是也能夠再加大下游的這個排水量是不是這個看能不能增加他的這個每秒鐘的這個CMS的量這一點是不是可以請次長支持我們同意委員的這個建議然後目前我們也在請地方政府依照這個原則也就是我們今天報告所提到的不對稱的治理在沿海或是河川的下游地區"},{"start":560.29,"end":566.989,"text":"然後他的通紅 促進他的通紅能力加大抽水站的能量 這個是我們的目標"},{"start":567.708,"end":589.684,"text":"好這一點也要特別拜託次長畢竟您是這個水利專家我相信您一定有辦法把這個監督落實完成那當然剛才您強調的這個水及流域永續推動小組是由經濟部農業部環境部跟內政部來組成那我們也希望說這個小組應該要有跨部會整合資源的實權"},{"start":591.545,"end":610.636,"text":"例如說治理這個經費的優先順序計畫審查的簡化權限或者就是你如果沒有一個統籌的單位的話太可惜了那你還是各自為政我們也希望說推薦經濟部由賴次長是不是來做這個主導來統籌這些資源來落實這個機制謝謝委員的建議謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":318,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（10時6分）主席，我想請賴次長。"],["主席：賴次長。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["張委員嘉郡：賴次長早。首先，我要先感謝你多年來在水利領域的專業與奉獻，尤其本席的家鄉雲林，就受到次長許多的關心，在水利署的時候，推動了很多項的重大建設，如前瞻基礎計畫中的水環境建設，這些計畫大幅提升我國防洪跟供水的能力，為國人帶來更安全、更優質的水環境，所以我真的非常地感謝次長。","剛剛呂玉玲委員所提出的部分，本席也非常地好奇，就是沸沸揚揚的水電雙漲議題，在上個禮拜五已經決定凍漲電價，但是現在大家最最關心的就是水價會不會漲呢？目前外界評估最快3月底會提出檢討方案，請問這個水價報告到底什麼時候會出爐呢？"],["賴次長建信：首先，最近對於電的部分，經過審議委員會綜合地考量，特別是國際關稅的措施跟貿易的談判，對於我們現在經濟的影響，這個不確定性太大了，所以大家認為為了穩定物價、照顧民生，甚至要維持產業的競爭力，我們希望這次不調漲。但是過去因為從111年開始，連續三年國際燃料價格大漲，讓台電公司背負承擔民生的部分，幾乎有兩千六百億，總體有6,000億。"],["張委員嘉郡：是。"],["賴次長建信：這個部分，過去委員會也通過追加減預算，我們希望這部分可以透過立法院院會的支持，讓台電的財務結構會更好。"],["張委員嘉郡：基本上財務結構去調整，我們都不反對，我們希望的是能源結構也能調整，應該是雙軌都可以並行，一邊調整財務結構，如果你有調整了，能源結構再跟著一起處理，才能真正解決問題，而不是每年都靠撥補，所以這一點也希望次長可以花一點心思。當然未來調整方向，在台水的部分，大家在說是不是有可能10度以下凍漲呢？次長，您怎麼看10度以下凍漲，其餘的用量分級去調幅？"],["賴次長建信：這個部分我們不預設立場，但優先的前提是要照顧民生，不要影響物價，甚至造成通膨，任何一個沒有經過仔細地規劃，大家突然間設想出來的東西，難免會有一些預期心理。剛剛台水公司提到今天會送出來的評估報告，我們會全面性去檢視，在公司的經營上面，部長多次指示我們，不管是開源跟節流的部分都要有努力。台電公司從去年年底開始盤點，今年它可以開源節流、可以節省……"],["張委員嘉郡：我再回到自來水好了。"],["賴次長建信：好。"],["張委員嘉郡：因為台電過去為了要節能，他們有補助像節能家電，現在自來水假設也要漲價、也要來節水的話，是不是也可以導入節水設備的更新補助呢？"],["賴次長建信：過去我們曾經實施過，委員所提的這個意見，未來在整體評估台水公司所提出來的報告，我們會請水利署跟台水公司納入考量。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，這一點請次長能夠關心一下。另外，針對學校還有老人長照機構等公益的社福設施，假設要漲，有沒有可能納入凍漲的機制呢？"],["賴次長建信：基本上，穩定民生、照顧弱勢，一直是我們各個國營事業……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以這個方向是……"],["賴次長建信：我們會考量這些因素。"],["張委員嘉郡：目前就像次長講的，最基礎的民生部分，我們不是反對合理地反映成本，但必須要有一個透明的時程、完整的評估、充分的說明，最重要的是到目前為止，台水的漏水率還在11%至12%中間，等於每年會漏掉一個石門水庫那麼多的水，與其漲價，本席建議不如先補漏洞，否則民眾也會覺得節水就是在懲罰這些守規矩的人，這一點要請部長跟自來水公司用心。"],["賴次長建信：台水公司自從實施第一期的降漏計畫之後，我們從過去漏水率超過20%，現在已經降到11%左右。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，也希望可以繼續……"],["賴次長建信：行政院卓院長也提到降漏是一個重大的目標。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒錯。"],["賴次長建信：所以我們在114年的時候，也透過立法院的支持，在公務預算部分投資台水公司，讓它處理漏水率改善的事情，我們中期的目標是希望降到10%以下的目標。"],["張委員嘉郡：目標是10%以下，這樣你們離目標太近了吧？現在是11%，你要降到10%，可不可以……"],["賴次長建信：沒有。委員，台水公司的管線好像人體血管一樣，當它改善到最後、進入到高原期，每投資一塊錢，改善的效果慢慢就會進入到高原期、趨緩的狀況。"],["張委員嘉郡：效益比較低、趨緩。本席知道經濟部在113年提出「因應氣候變遷縣市管河川及排水整體改善計畫（115-120年）」總經費是1,000億，請教這一次5年1,000億治水，您覺得這樣夠嗎？"],["賴次長建信：我剛剛有講到治水沒有最好，只有更好，各縣市治水的需求，委員會各個委員都非常知道，基本上這是一個5年的計畫，我們希望透過各個部分……"],["張委員嘉郡：本席認為不夠啦！應該再提高一點，撥補台電就已經4年3,000億了，今年還想要再1,000億，明年還想要1,000億，台電一個人就花了5,000億，跟真正應該做的治水工作才給1,000億，太少了吧？"],["賴次長建信：所以我們希望經濟部所提的各個計畫委員會都可以支持。"],["張委員嘉郡：我們當然一定要支持治水計畫，我只是覺得太客氣了，台電一個人花了近5,000億，5,000億不夠花，還要再讓它花5,000億，它一個人要花1兆，真正民眾每天擔心的，如我的田會不會被淹、我的房子會不會被淹，結果才花1,000億，雖然國發會已經通過了，可是我覺得真的不夠，所以次長，麻煩你再爭取一下，好不好？"],["賴次長建信：我們必要時再滾動性檢討，好。"],["張委員嘉郡：我們繼續來努力爭取。今天我們討論的防洪抗旱，其實都是以地方出發，想要照顧地方、照顧民生，以雲林縣為例，問題的本質從來就不是單一的設施或者是事件，而是與地勢、地層、財政、極端氣候交織之下的結構性問題。因此，我們希望經濟部能在優先治理的順序中，將雲林納入高風險優先治理的縣市，給予強化地支持。"],["賴次長建信：所以我們不但是在工程面提預算之外，如我剛剛的報告中提到，現在行政院也成立水及流域永續推動小組，我們未來會透過空間圖形的套疊，把剛剛委員所提到的重點、應該治理的地區抓出來，優先投入經費。"],["張委員嘉郡：是。尤其雲林縣的沿海地區，過去你也常常去，包括水林、口湖、臺西、四湖，甚至元長，我們都設置了不少的大型抽水站，但是因應氣候變遷、強降雨等等，短時間內的強降雨都是飆非常地高，水利署是不是也能夠再加大下游的排水量，看能不能增加它每秒鐘CMS的量？這一點是不是可以請次長支持？"],["賴次長建信：我們同意委員的建議，目前我們也在請地方政府依照這個原則，也就是我們今天報告所提到的不對稱治理，在沿海或是河川的下游地區，促進通孔能力，加大抽水站的能量，這個是我們的目標。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，這一點也要特別拜託次長，畢竟您是水利專家，我相信您一定有辦法把監督落實完成。當然剛才您強調的水及流域永續推動小組，是由經濟部、農業部、環境部跟內政部組成，我們也希望這個小組應該要有跨部會整合資源的實權，例如治理經費的優先順序、計畫審查的簡化權限，如果沒有一個統籌單位的話，太可惜了，那就還是各自為政嘛！我們也希望推薦經濟部由賴次長來做主導，來統籌這些資源，以落實這個機制。"],["賴次長建信：好，謝謝委員的建議。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，謝謝。"],["賴次長建信：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請楊瓊瓔委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-6","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","鄭正鈐","陳超明","鍾佳濱","蔡易餘","葉元之","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-03-31"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、農業部部長、內政部首長及國家科學及技術委員會首長就「2025年防洪抗旱計\n畫」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00003"}}}