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\"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 731.601, \"end\": 731.781, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"努\", \"start\": 731.781, \"end\": 731.941, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 731.941, \"end\": 732.281, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 732.281, \"end\": 732.301, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,856 --> 00:00:06,360\n謝謝主席陽泉發言人邀請次長來次長\n\n2\n00:00:14,978 --> 00:00:42,105\n委員好市長好台灣極端氣候日益的嚴峻不管是颱風、豪暴雨這一些的洪患或者是乾旱那麼用水的問題可以說是憨老病悲狀況是越來越多在這樣的情況之下我們水資源管理當然是重中之重那淹水的方面本席也肯定政府有所作為\n\n3\n00:00:42,845 --> 00:00:50,627\n包括我們台中市面對這個強大的這個強降雨淹水的面積我們是減少尤其根據經濟部的資料顯示113年7月份的凱米颱風那24小時之內累計的這個降雨量是近期颱風或者好暴雨它是最高的但是它的總淹的面積是比107年8月23號的\n\n4\n00:01:12,311 --> 00:01:29,942\n這個豪暴雨它是大幅的一個減少不過在國科會跟環境部也提出報告未來平均退估降雨增加會有約15%那降雨的變化弧度也隨著全球的一個暖化\n\n5\n00:01:30,802 --> 00:01:55,542\n而日益的來增加那以後不管是乾季乾季可能是在1月到4月份的時候它會越乾那5月到10月份它會越濕在這樣的一個情況之下也表示極端的一日暴雨強降雨它會日劇的嚴峻而且會增強那當然台中市目前的治理我們也努力做得不錯\n\n6\n00:01:56,323 --> 00:02:23,902\n等于是月亮大但是我们淹水的面积呢跟中央一样也是这个面积是有缩小的但是本席要在这边讲113年的凯米台风为例虽然我们各项的工程都有发挥了这个效能出来但是我们看到这些极端的暴雨会造成中南部跟易淹水地区那您是专家您是专家请教\n\n7\n00:02:24,542 --> 00:02:40,923\n对于未来发展经济部对于这个一烟水地区的防洪计划你的具体措施跟你的目标那如何的能够因应自己以台中市为例要怎么样来协助具体的方案请做说明\n\n8\n00:02:41,380 --> 00:02:56,540\n而且我也知道根據我們過去的努力我們淹水的面積台中市是有改善的所以我們具體的做法所以我們會再盤點整個台中市一淹水的地區可能不做十年前了\n\n9\n00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:23,526\n可能會在別的地方或是新開發出來的地方所以基本上我們的治理除了工程面用系統性的治理之外法規面也要精進所謂法規面是新開發的區域我們希望不要造成雨林為禍的狀況所以要求開發商他要多增加滯洪跟除流在自己的基地裡面自己基地產生的水自己基地來溶\n\n10\n00:03:24,406 --> 00:03:50,003\n這一點我們當時抗旱的時候我們連建築工地的湖流水我們都把它吸出來這個是太感動了這也就是中央跟地方一起團結嘛才能夠這麼做所以剛剛市長您說的在法規面以及具體的工程方面我們滾動式的去檢討還有另外非常重要我也一直在說明包括各位委員都重視了清書啊\n\n11\n00:03:50,882 --> 00:04:13,279\n但現在離汛水要來差不多一個多月時間嘛所以把這個所謂的下水道啊包括我們的雨水下水道做清疏是一個很有用的一個做法所以你也把以台中市為例我們現在做得不錯中央地方合作但是我們也要超前部署因應強教育以及\n\n12\n00:04:13,899 --> 00:04:16,740\n這個軟化的問題有精進的方案請給本席接下來我們來討論抗旱的這個部分因為抗旱跟水資源的管理市長在國科會智庫DSET當中的他發布了半導體產業水電\n\n13\n00:04:31,704 --> 00:04:40,729\n的需求報告那麼他也提出了這個乾旱的恐怕讓先程製水來缺水那例如台積電的先進製程他大概每日的用水就要10萬到15萬公噸10萬到15萬公噸相當是一個中型城市的每日用水\n\n14\n00:04:50,715 --> 00:05:16,290\n但是DSET裡頭提出水利署的2036年規劃的目標裡頭沒有將台積電以及其他相當的廠商的擴廠需求納入在你的評估所以優先我們的水資源這個提供是不確定性市長你之前也有所回應針對於整個產業用水是不是有預留這個評估請做說明\n\n15\n00:05:18,671 --> 00:05:39,257\n絕對有包括台中市我們現在積極的發展我們現在做的珍珠串裡面包括大安大甲的聯合運用計畫在明年就可以完成了那這個部分進度是超前的那它產生也可以讓兩個水庫產生一加一大於二我們知道台中的水源第一個來自大\n\n16\n00:05:40,138 --> 00:05:55,697\n大安溪第二個來自大甲溪這兩個水源運用起來就可以了那另外產業的需要的用水我們一再的強調他不要去排擠到現在的用水人的用水量所以我們會要求他多使用再生水\n\n17\n00:05:56,698 --> 00:06:17,930\n然後多使用他自己廠區裡面重複利用的這個水量所以換句話說也就是我們一定要預留這個評估量而且運用多元的方式我們一定要積極努力這麼做來協助所有需要用水的人這個是非常的重要\n\n18\n00:06:18,470 --> 00:06:40,083\n那麼遇到那個旱災的時候我們常常提取也就是各大水庫的這個預計嚴重那我們也在清淤目前的清淤狀況進度如何而且我們的執行計畫如何進行請做說明我們這幾年的水庫清淤是每年都創新高\n\n19\n00:06:40,936 --> 00:07:00,417\n那我們會超過一年超過1800萬立方公尺的這個氫餘量對因為尤其在旱的時候是最好清的我們必須要加強這個力道那這個當然這幾年我們也清的還不錯我們也希望精進再精進一起來加油\n\n20\n00:07:01,018 --> 00:07:05,381\n接下來我要跟你討論的是我們的電價的問題因為禮拜五也宣布了那本期要跟你討論的也就是說能源政策錯誤到底什麼時候才要面對因為我們考量了國際關稅的一個變化跟整個地緣政治的一個風險所以當然這是你們說的決議四月份而且聽到了民意電價不漲而且要經濟部\n\n21\n00:07:30,256 --> 00:07:48,164\n全力的來爭取撥補的這個事宜但是次長公堂撥補也是人民的血汗錢在向人民伸手要錢之前我們政府應該要好好的去面對去解決能源政策錯誤的問題說清楚台電何時能夠止損否則撥補再撥補到底什麼時候才有盡頭請做說明\n\n22\n00:07:56,457 --> 00:08:02,244\n首先跟委員說明台電目前累積4200億的虧損主要是來自於民國111年跟112年國際燃料價格的大漲\n\n23\n00:08:10,007 --> 00:08:30,024\n這是第一點第二點比如說外界常常會去指教的是因為我們不用核電我們說核電延益了事實上以國際核能能源佔比相當多的我們鄰近的國家韓國為例他們的電價還比我們高他們虧損也是比我們多你這麼說法我必須要跟你來討論重點\n\n24\n00:08:34,568 --> 00:08:36,709\n你們一再說韓國的電價是如何但是我們真正要討論的是你廢掉了核電最便宜的1.42元你買了高貴的綠電那同時到底我們囤購的\n\n25\n00:08:51,994 --> 00:09:00,879\n這個價格會不會降我們購電綠電的量會不會降這是要針對於能源配比真正的解決問題因為在台電的部分光光一月份他們的財務報表說出是121億的虧損我們不希望台電成為財務的黑洞啊如果沒有真正的解決這些問題那麼撥補再撥補漲價再漲價\n\n26\n00:09:19,568 --> 00:09:27,111\n要讓人民成為提款機這是人民沒有辦法接受的所以我還是要請市長針對於台電的財務我們必須要真正的去討論我們的電來源到底要怎麼做核電會不會續用會不會續用請教市長\n\n27\n00:09:39,566 --> 00:09:56,186\n首先核電的部分第一個核能安全要兼顧核廢料要能處理社會要有共識基本上這三個原則來處理一下我們面對新的核能的技術我們政府始終保持開放的態度好這一句開放\n\n28\n00:09:57,708 --> 00:10:25,160\n你開放的態度非常好所以現在在立法院環境基本法以及現在在教育委員會的核寬法正在審議在這樣的情況之下請問行政院你經濟部會不會送法案到立法院來因為現在都是朝野立委的一個法案行政院會不會送來會不會送有沒有這個計畫請教\n\n29\n00:10:26,681 --> 00:10:46,998\n我們現在對於電的這個使用我們依法行政啦目前設施管制辦法基本上那個是原農會所主管的請教那是原農會所主管的行政院會不會送來啊因為行政院告訴我們是如此開放的態度經濟部也告訴我們開放的態度那請問行政院會不會送來\n\n30\n00:10:48,244 --> 00:11:11,690\n他是在討論核能設施管理辦法他是研議的部分嘛環境基本法也就是到底我們核能要不要用嘛所以這個跟你經濟部絕對有最重要的關鍵點所以我們也希望我們也希望不要把人民當提款機我們也不希望台電成為財務黑洞由政府真正的來解決問題因為我們要問一句話到底什麼時候才不會給我們人民漲價漲電價\n\n31\n00:11:18,064 --> 00:11:35,493\n我跟委員說明即便我們用2016年以前的能源結構來試算的話以2023的國際燃油的價格我們的平均的成本也超過4塊比現在的台電所提出來的這個成本還高於\n\n32\n00:11:36,033 --> 00:11:42,479\n市長這個方案如果不改台電已經提出2026年到2027年他沒有辦法自負盈虧啦所以你如果沒有真正解決台電能源的來源你永遠沒有辦法解決他的虧損啦這是我們今天討論的重點提供給你參考我們希望一起好好的協助台電能夠將他的能源配比\n\n33\n00:12:01,676 --> 00:12:12,301\n能夠好好的真正的完整性的來討論才不會每一年的撥補每一年的漲價加油是謝謝大家用我們一起努力謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4856\t6360\t謝謝主席 陽泉發言人邀請次長來 次長\n14978\t42105\t委員好市長好台灣極端氣候日益的嚴峻不管是颱風、豪暴雨這一些的洪患或者是乾旱那麼用水的問題可以說是憨老病悲狀況是越來越多在這樣的情況之下我們水資源管理當然是重中之重那淹水的方面本席也肯定政府有所作為\n42845\t50627\t包括我們台中市面對這個強大的這個強降雨淹水的面積我們是減少尤其根據經濟部的資料顯示113年7月份的凱米颱風那24小時之內累計的這個降雨量是近期颱風或者好暴雨它是最高的但是它的總淹的面積是比107年8月23號的\n72311\t89942\t這個豪暴雨它是大幅的一個減少不過在國科會跟環境部也提出報告未來平均退估降雨增加會有約15%那降雨的變化弧度也隨著全球的一個暖化\n90802\t115542\t而日益的來增加那以後不管是乾季乾季可能是在1月到4月份的時候它會越乾那5月到10月份它會越濕在這樣的一個情況之下也表示極端的一日暴雨強降雨它會日劇的嚴峻而且會增強那當然台中市目前的治理我們也努力做得不錯\n116323\t143902\t等于是月亮大但是我们淹水的面积呢跟中央一样也是这个面积是有缩小的但是本席要在这边讲113年的凯米台风为例虽然我们各项的工程都有发挥了这个效能出来但是我们看到这些极端的暴雨会造成中南部跟易淹水地区那您是专家您是专家请教\n144542\t160923\t对于未来发展经济部对于这个一烟水地区的防洪计划你的具体措施跟你的目标那如何的能够因应自己以台中市为例要怎么样来协助具体的方案请做说明\n161380\t176540\t而且我也知道根據我們過去的努力我們淹水的面積台中市是有改善的所以我們具體的做法所以我們會再盤點整個台中市一淹水的地區可能不做十年前了\n177000\t203526\t可能會在別的地方或是新開發出來的地方所以基本上我們的治理除了工程面用系統性的治理之外法規面也要精進所謂法規面是新開發的區域我們希望不要造成雨林為禍的狀況所以要求開發商他要多增加滯洪跟除流在自己的基地裡面自己基地產生的水自己基地來溶\n204406\t230003\t這一點我們當時抗旱的時候我們連建築工地的湖流水我們都把它吸出來這個是太感動了這也就是中央跟地方一起團結嘛才能夠這麼做所以剛剛市長您說的在法規面以及具體的工程方面我們滾動式的去檢討還有另外非常重要我也一直在說明包括各位委員都重視了清書啊\n230882\t253279\t但現在離汛水要來差不多一個多月時間嘛所以把這個所謂的下水道啊包括我們的雨水下水道做清疏是一個很有用的一個做法所以你也把以台中市為例我們現在做得不錯中央地方合作但是我們也要超前部署因應強教育以及\n253899\t256740\t這個軟化的問題有精進的方案請給本席接下來我們來討論抗旱的這個部分因為抗旱跟水資源的管理市長在國科會智庫DSET當中的他發布了半導體產業水電\n271704\t280729\t的需求報告那麼他也提出了這個乾旱的恐怕讓先程製水來缺水那例如台積電的先進製程他大概每日的用水就要10萬到15萬公噸10萬到15萬公噸相當是一個中型城市的每日用水\n290715\t316290\t但是DSET裡頭提出水利署的2036年規劃的目標裡頭沒有將台積電以及其他相當的廠商的擴廠需求納入在你的評估所以優先我們的水資源這個提供是不確定性市長你之前也有所回應針對於整個產業用水是不是有預留這個評估請做說明\n318671\t339257\t絕對有包括台中市我們現在積極的發展我們現在做的珍珠串裡面包括大安大甲的聯合運用計畫在明年就可以完成了那這個部分進度是超前的那它產生也可以讓兩個水庫產生一加一大於二我們知道台中的水源第一個來自大\n340138\t355697\t大安溪第二個來自大甲溪這兩個水源運用起來就可以了那另外產業的需要的用水我們一再的強調他不要去排擠到現在的用水人的用水量所以我們會要求他多使用再生水\n356698\t377930\t然後多使用他自己廠區裡面重複利用的這個水量所以換句話說也就是我們一定要預留這個評估量而且運用多元的方式我們一定要積極努力這麼做來協助所有需要用水的人這個是非常的重要\n378470\t400083\t那麼遇到那個旱災的時候我們常常提取也就是各大水庫的這個預計嚴重那我們也在清淤目前的清淤狀況進度如何而且我們的執行計畫如何進行 請做說明我們這幾年的水庫清淤是每年都創新高\n400936\t420417\t那我們會超過一年超過1800萬立方公尺的這個氫餘量對 因為尤其在旱的時候是最好清的我們必須要加強這個力道那這個當然這幾年我們也清的還不錯我們也希望精進再精進一起來加油\n421018\t425381\t接下來我要跟你討論的是我們的電價的問題因為禮拜五也宣布了那本期要跟你討論的也就是說能源政策錯誤到底什麼時候才要面對因為我們考量了國際關稅的一個變化跟整個地緣政治的一個風險所以當然這是你們說的決議四月份而且聽到了民意電價不漲而且要經濟部\n450256\t468164\t全力的來爭取撥補的這個事宜但是次長公堂撥補也是人民的血汗錢在向人民伸手要錢之前我們政府應該要好好的去面對去解決能源政策錯誤的問題說清楚台電何時能夠止損否則撥補再撥補到底什麼時候才有盡頭 請做說明\n476457\t482244\t首先跟委員說明台電目前累積4200億的虧損主要是來自於民國111年跟112年國際燃料價格的大漲\n490007\t510024\t這是第一點 第二點比如說外界常常會去指教的是因為我們不用核電 我們說核電延益了事實上以國際核能能源佔比相當多的我們鄰近的國家 韓國為例他們的電價還比我們高 他們虧損也是比我們多你這麼說法 我必須要跟你來討論重點\n514568\t516709\t你們一再說韓國的電價是如何但是我們真正要討論的是你廢掉了核電最便宜的1.42元你買了高貴的綠電那同時到底我們囤購的\n531994\t540879\t這個價格會不會降我們購電綠電的量會不會降這是要針對於能源配比真正的解決問題因為在台電的部分光光一月份他們的財務報表說出是121億的虧損我們不希望台電成為財務的黑洞啊如果沒有真正的解決這些問題那麼撥補再撥補漲價再漲價\n559568\t567111\t要讓人民成為提款機這是人民沒有辦法接受的所以我還是要請市長針對於台電的財務我們必須要真正的去討論我們的電來源到底要怎麼做 核電會不會續用會不會續用 請教市長\n579566\t596186\t首先核電的部分第一個核能安全要兼顧核廢料要能處理社會要有共識基本上這三個原則來處理一下我們面對新的核能的技術我們政府始終保持開放的態度好 這一句開放\n597708\t625160\t你開放的態度非常好所以現在在立法院環境基本法以及現在在教育委員會的核寬法正在審議在這樣的情況之下請問行政院你經濟部會不會送法案到立法院來因為現在都是朝野立委的一個法案行政院會不會送來會不會送 有沒有這個計畫 請教\n626681\t646998\t我們現在對於電的這個使用我們依法行政啦 目前設施管制辦法 基本上那個是原農會所主管的請教那是原農會所主管的行政院會不會送來啊 因為行政院告訴我們是如此開放的態度經濟部也告訴我們開放的態度 那請問行政院會不會送來\n648244\t671690\t他是在討論核能設施管理辦法他是研議的部分嘛 環境基本法也就是到底我們核能要不要用嘛所以這個跟你經濟部絕對有最重要的關鍵點所以我們也希望我們也希望不要把人民當提款機我們也不希望台電成為財務黑洞由政府真正的來解決問題因為我們要問一句話到底什麼時候才不會給我們人民漲價漲電價\n678064\t695493\t我跟委員說明 即便我們用2016年以前的能源結構來試算的話以2023的國際燃油的價格 我們的平均的成本也超過4塊比現在的台電所提出來的這個成本還高於\n696033\t702479\t市長這個方案如果不改台電已經提出2026年到2027年他沒有辦法自負盈虧啦所以你如果沒有真正解決台電能源的來源你永遠沒有辦法解決他的虧損啦這是我們今天討論的重點提供給你參考我們希望一起好好的協助台電能夠將他的能源配比\n721676\t732301\t能夠好好的真正的完整性的來討論才不會每一年的撥補 每一年的漲價加油是 謝謝 大家用我們一起努力 謝謝委員謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 陽泉發言人邀請次長來 次長\n委員好市長好台灣極端氣候日益的嚴峻不管是颱風、豪暴雨這一些的洪患或者是乾旱那麼用水的問題可以說是憨老病悲狀況是越來越多在這樣的情況之下我們水資源管理當然是重中之重那淹水的方面本席也肯定政府有所作為\n包括我們台中市面對這個強大的這個強降雨淹水的面積我們是減少尤其根據經濟部的資料顯示113年7月份的凱米颱風那24小時之內累計的這個降雨量是近期颱風或者好暴雨它是最高的但是它的總淹的面積是比107年8月23號的\n這個豪暴雨它是大幅的一個減少不過在國科會跟環境部也提出報告未來平均退估降雨增加會有約15%那降雨的變化弧度也隨著全球的一個暖化\n而日益的來增加那以後不管是乾季乾季可能是在1月到4月份的時候它會越乾那5月到10月份它會越濕在這樣的一個情況之下也表示極端的一日暴雨強降雨它會日劇的嚴峻而且會增強那當然台中市目前的治理我們也努力做得不錯\n等于是月亮大但是我们淹水的面积呢跟中央一样也是这个面积是有缩小的但是本席要在这边讲113年的凯米台风为例虽然我们各项的工程都有发挥了这个效能出来但是我们看到这些极端的暴雨会造成中南部跟易淹水地区那您是专家您是专家请教\n对于未来发展经济部对于这个一烟水地区的防洪计划你的具体措施跟你的目标那如何的能够因应自己以台中市为例要怎么样来协助具体的方案请做说明\n而且我也知道根據我們過去的努力我們淹水的面積台中市是有改善的所以我們具體的做法所以我們會再盤點整個台中市一淹水的地區可能不做十年前了\n可能會在別的地方或是新開發出來的地方所以基本上我們的治理除了工程面用系統性的治理之外法規面也要精進所謂法規面是新開發的區域我們希望不要造成雨林為禍的狀況所以要求開發商他要多增加滯洪跟除流在自己的基地裡面自己基地產生的水自己基地來溶\n這一點我們當時抗旱的時候我們連建築工地的湖流水我們都把它吸出來這個是太感動了這也就是中央跟地方一起團結嘛才能夠這麼做所以剛剛市長您說的在法規面以及具體的工程方面我們滾動式的去檢討還有另外非常重要我也一直在說明包括各位委員都重視了清書啊\n但現在離汛水要來差不多一個多月時間嘛所以把這個所謂的下水道啊包括我們的雨水下水道做清疏是一個很有用的一個做法所以你也把以台中市為例我們現在做得不錯中央地方合作但是我們也要超前部署因應強教育以及\n這個軟化的問題有精進的方案請給本席接下來我們來討論抗旱的這個部分因為抗旱跟水資源的管理市長在國科會智庫DSET當中的他發布了半導體產業水電\n的需求報告那麼他也提出了這個乾旱的恐怕讓先程製水來缺水那例如台積電的先進製程他大概每日的用水就要10萬到15萬公噸10萬到15萬公噸相當是一個中型城市的每日用水\n但是DSET裡頭提出水利署的2036年規劃的目標裡頭沒有將台積電以及其他相當的廠商的擴廠需求納入在你的評估所以優先我們的水資源這個提供是不確定性市長你之前也有所回應針對於整個產業用水是不是有預留這個評估請做說明\n絕對有包括台中市我們現在積極的發展我們現在做的珍珠串裡面包括大安大甲的聯合運用計畫在明年就可以完成了那這個部分進度是超前的那它產生也可以讓兩個水庫產生一加一大於二我們知道台中的水源第一個來自大\n大安溪第二個來自大甲溪這兩個水源運用起來就可以了那另外產業的需要的用水我們一再的強調他不要去排擠到現在的用水人的用水量所以我們會要求他多使用再生水\n然後多使用他自己廠區裡面重複利用的這個水量所以換句話說也就是我們一定要預留這個評估量而且運用多元的方式我們一定要積極努力這麼做來協助所有需要用水的人這個是非常的重要\n那麼遇到那個旱災的時候我們常常提取也就是各大水庫的這個預計嚴重那我們也在清淤目前的清淤狀況進度如何而且我們的執行計畫如何進行 請做說明我們這幾年的水庫清淤是每年都創新高\n那我們會超過一年超過1800萬立方公尺的這個氫餘量對 因為尤其在旱的時候是最好清的我們必須要加強這個力道那這個當然這幾年我們也清的還不錯我們也希望精進再精進一起來加油\n接下來我要跟你討論的是我們的電價的問題因為禮拜五也宣布了那本期要跟你討論的也就是說能源政策錯誤到底什麼時候才要面對因為我們考量了國際關稅的一個變化跟整個地緣政治的一個風險所以當然這是你們說的決議四月份而且聽到了民意電價不漲而且要經濟部\n全力的來爭取撥補的這個事宜但是次長公堂撥補也是人民的血汗錢在向人民伸手要錢之前我們政府應該要好好的去面對去解決能源政策錯誤的問題說清楚台電何時能夠止損否則撥補再撥補到底什麼時候才有盡頭 請做說明\n首先跟委員說明台電目前累積4200億的虧損主要是來自於民國111年跟112年國際燃料價格的大漲\n這是第一點 第二點比如說外界常常會去指教的是因為我們不用核電 我們說核電延益了事實上以國際核能能源佔比相當多的我們鄰近的國家 韓國為例他們的電價還比我們高 他們虧損也是比我們多你這麼說法 我必須要跟你來討論重點\n你們一再說韓國的電價是如何但是我們真正要討論的是你廢掉了核電最便宜的1.42元你買了高貴的綠電那同時到底我們囤購的\n這個價格會不會降我們購電綠電的量會不會降這是要針對於能源配比真正的解決問題因為在台電的部分光光一月份他們的財務報表說出是121億的虧損我們不希望台電成為財務的黑洞啊如果沒有真正的解決這些問題那麼撥補再撥補漲價再漲價\n要讓人民成為提款機這是人民沒有辦法接受的所以我還是要請市長針對於台電的財務我們必須要真正的去討論我們的電來源到底要怎麼做 核電會不會續用會不會續用 請教市長\n首先核電的部分第一個核能安全要兼顧核廢料要能處理社會要有共識基本上這三個原則來處理一下我們面對新的核能的技術我們政府始終保持開放的態度好 這一句開放\n你開放的態度非常好所以現在在立法院環境基本法以及現在在教育委員會的核寬法正在審議在這樣的情況之下請問行政院你經濟部會不會送法案到立法院來因為現在都是朝野立委的一個法案行政院會不會送來會不會送 有沒有這個計畫 請教\n我們現在對於電的這個使用我們依法行政啦 目前設施管制辦法 基本上那個是原農會所主管的請教那是原農會所主管的行政院會不會送來啊 因為行政院告訴我們是如此開放的態度經濟部也告訴我們開放的態度 那請問行政院會不會送來\n他是在討論核能設施管理辦法他是研議的部分嘛 環境基本法也就是到底我們核能要不要用嘛所以這個跟你經濟部絕對有最重要的關鍵點所以我們也希望我們也希望不要把人民當提款機我們也不希望台電成為財務黑洞由政府真正的來解決問題因為我們要問一句話到底什麼時候才不會給我們人民漲價漲電價\n我跟委員說明 即便我們用2016年以前的能源結構來試算的話以2023的國際燃油的價格 我們的平均的成本也超過4塊比現在的台電所提出來的這個成本還高於\n市長這個方案如果不改台電已經提出2026年到2027年他沒有辦法自負盈虧啦所以你如果沒有真正解決台電能源的來源你永遠沒有辦法解決他的虧損啦這是我們今天討論的重點提供給你參考我們希望一起好好的協助台電能夠將他的能源配比\n能夠好好的真正的完整性的來討論才不會每一年的撥補 每一年的漲價加油是 謝謝 大家用我們一起努力 謝謝委員謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.856 --> 00:06.360\n謝謝主席陽泉發言人邀請次長來次長\n\n00:14.978 --> 00:42.105\n委員好市長好台灣極端氣候日益的嚴峻不管是颱風、豪暴雨這一些的洪患或者是乾旱那麼用水的問題可以說是憨老病悲狀況是越來越多在這樣的情況之下我們水資源管理當然是重中之重那淹水的方面本席也肯定政府有所作為\n\n00:42.845 --> 00:50.627\n包括我們台中市面對這個強大的這個強降雨淹水的面積我們是減少尤其根據經濟部的資料顯示113年7月份的凱米颱風那24小時之內累計的這個降雨量是近期颱風或者好暴雨它是最高的但是它的總淹的面積是比107年8月23號的\n\n01:12.311 --> 01:29.942\n這個豪暴雨它是大幅的一個減少不過在國科會跟環境部也提出報告未來平均退估降雨增加會有約15%那降雨的變化弧度也隨著全球的一個暖化\n\n01:30.802 --> 01:55.542\n而日益的來增加那以後不管是乾季乾季可能是在1月到4月份的時候它會越乾那5月到10月份它會越濕在這樣的一個情況之下也表示極端的一日暴雨強降雨它會日劇的嚴峻而且會增強那當然台中市目前的治理我們也努力做得不錯\n\n01:56.323 --> 02:23.902\n等于是月亮大但是我们淹水的面积呢跟中央一样也是这个面积是有缩小的但是本席要在这边讲113年的凯米台风为例虽然我们各项的工程都有发挥了这个效能出来但是我们看到这些极端的暴雨会造成中南部跟易淹水地区那您是专家您是专家请教\n\n02:24.542 --> 02:40.923\n对于未来发展经济部对于这个一烟水地区的防洪计划你的具体措施跟你的目标那如何的能够因应自己以台中市为例要怎么样来协助具体的方案请做说明\n\n02:41.380 --> 02:56.540\n而且我也知道根據我們過去的努力我們淹水的面積台中市是有改善的所以我們具體的做法所以我們會再盤點整個台中市一淹水的地區可能不做十年前了\n\n02:57.000 --> 03:23.526\n可能會在別的地方或是新開發出來的地方所以基本上我們的治理除了工程面用系統性的治理之外法規面也要精進所謂法規面是新開發的區域我們希望不要造成雨林為禍的狀況所以要求開發商他要多增加滯洪跟除流在自己的基地裡面自己基地產生的水自己基地來溶\n\n03:24.406 --> 03:50.003\n這一點我們當時抗旱的時候我們連建築工地的湖流水我們都把它吸出來這個是太感動了這也就是中央跟地方一起團結嘛才能夠這麼做所以剛剛市長您說的在法規面以及具體的工程方面我們滾動式的去檢討還有另外非常重要我也一直在說明包括各位委員都重視了清書啊\n\n03:50.882 --> 04:13.279\n但現在離汛水要來差不多一個多月時間嘛所以把這個所謂的下水道啊包括我們的雨水下水道做清疏是一個很有用的一個做法所以你也把以台中市為例我們現在做得不錯中央地方合作但是我們也要超前部署因應強教育以及\n\n04:13.899 --> 04:16.740\n這個軟化的問題有精進的方案請給本席接下來我們來討論抗旱的這個部分因為抗旱跟水資源的管理市長在國科會智庫DSET當中的他發布了半導體產業水電\n\n04:31.704 --> 04:40.729\n的需求報告那麼他也提出了這個乾旱的恐怕讓先程製水來缺水那例如台積電的先進製程他大概每日的用水就要10萬到15萬公噸10萬到15萬公噸相當是一個中型城市的每日用水\n\n04:50.715 --> 05:16.290\n但是DSET裡頭提出水利署的2036年規劃的目標裡頭沒有將台積電以及其他相當的廠商的擴廠需求納入在你的評估所以優先我們的水資源這個提供是不確定性市長你之前也有所回應針對於整個產業用水是不是有預留這個評估請做說明\n\n05:18.671 --> 05:39.257\n絕對有包括台中市我們現在積極的發展我們現在做的珍珠串裡面包括大安大甲的聯合運用計畫在明年就可以完成了那這個部分進度是超前的那它產生也可以讓兩個水庫產生一加一大於二我們知道台中的水源第一個來自大\n\n05:40.138 --> 05:55.697\n大安溪第二個來自大甲溪這兩個水源運用起來就可以了那另外產業的需要的用水我們一再的強調他不要去排擠到現在的用水人的用水量所以我們會要求他多使用再生水\n\n05:56.698 --> 06:17.930\n然後多使用他自己廠區裡面重複利用的這個水量所以換句話說也就是我們一定要預留這個評估量而且運用多元的方式我們一定要積極努力這麼做來協助所有需要用水的人這個是非常的重要\n\n06:18.470 --> 06:40.083\n那麼遇到那個旱災的時候我們常常提取也就是各大水庫的這個預計嚴重那我們也在清淤目前的清淤狀況進度如何而且我們的執行計畫如何進行請做說明我們這幾年的水庫清淤是每年都創新高\n\n06:40.936 --> 07:00.417\n那我們會超過一年超過1800萬立方公尺的這個氫餘量對因為尤其在旱的時候是最好清的我們必須要加強這個力道那這個當然這幾年我們也清的還不錯我們也希望精進再精進一起來加油\n\n07:01.018 --> 07:05.381\n接下來我要跟你討論的是我們的電價的問題因為禮拜五也宣布了那本期要跟你討論的也就是說能源政策錯誤到底什麼時候才要面對因為我們考量了國際關稅的一個變化跟整個地緣政治的一個風險所以當然這是你們說的決議四月份而且聽到了民意電價不漲而且要經濟部\n\n07:30.256 --> 07:48.164\n全力的來爭取撥補的這個事宜但是次長公堂撥補也是人民的血汗錢在向人民伸手要錢之前我們政府應該要好好的去面對去解決能源政策錯誤的問題說清楚台電何時能夠止損否則撥補再撥補到底什麼時候才有盡頭請做說明\n\n07:56.457 --> 08:02.244\n首先跟委員說明台電目前累積4200億的虧損主要是來自於民國111年跟112年國際燃料價格的大漲\n\n08:10.007 --> 08:30.024\n這是第一點第二點比如說外界常常會去指教的是因為我們不用核電我們說核電延益了事實上以國際核能能源佔比相當多的我們鄰近的國家韓國為例他們的電價還比我們高他們虧損也是比我們多你這麼說法我必須要跟你來討論重點\n\n08:34.568 --> 08:36.709\n你們一再說韓國的電價是如何但是我們真正要討論的是你廢掉了核電最便宜的1.42元你買了高貴的綠電那同時到底我們囤購的\n\n08:51.994 --> 09:00.879\n這個價格會不會降我們購電綠電的量會不會降這是要針對於能源配比真正的解決問題因為在台電的部分光光一月份他們的財務報表說出是121億的虧損我們不希望台電成為財務的黑洞啊如果沒有真正的解決這些問題那麼撥補再撥補漲價再漲價\n\n09:19.568 --> 09:27.111\n要讓人民成為提款機這是人民沒有辦法接受的所以我還是要請市長針對於台電的財務我們必須要真正的去討論我們的電來源到底要怎麼做核電會不會續用會不會續用請教市長\n\n09:39.566 --> 09:56.186\n首先核電的部分第一個核能安全要兼顧核廢料要能處理社會要有共識基本上這三個原則來處理一下我們面對新的核能的技術我們政府始終保持開放的態度好這一句開放\n\n09:57.708 --> 10:25.160\n你開放的態度非常好所以現在在立法院環境基本法以及現在在教育委員會的核寬法正在審議在這樣的情況之下請問行政院你經濟部會不會送法案到立法院來因為現在都是朝野立委的一個法案行政院會不會送來會不會送有沒有這個計畫請教\n\n10:26.681 --> 10:46.998\n我們現在對於電的這個使用我們依法行政啦目前設施管制辦法基本上那個是原農會所主管的請教那是原農會所主管的行政院會不會送來啊因為行政院告訴我們是如此開放的態度經濟部也告訴我們開放的態度那請問行政院會不會送來\n\n10:48.244 --> 11:11.690\n他是在討論核能設施管理辦法他是研議的部分嘛環境基本法也就是到底我們核能要不要用嘛所以這個跟你經濟部絕對有最重要的關鍵點所以我們也希望我們也希望不要把人民當提款機我們也不希望台電成為財務黑洞由政府真正的來解決問題因為我們要問一句話到底什麼時候才不會給我們人民漲價漲電價\n\n11:18.064 --> 11:35.493\n我跟委員說明即便我們用2016年以前的能源結構來試算的話以2023的國際燃油的價格我們的平均的成本也超過4塊比現在的台電所提出來的這個成本還高於\n\n11:36.033 --> 11:42.479\n市長這個方案如果不改台電已經提出2026年到2027年他沒有辦法自負盈虧啦所以你如果沒有真正解決台電能源的來源你永遠沒有辦法解決他的虧損啦這是我們今天討論的重點提供給你參考我們希望一起好好的協助台電能夠將他的能源配比\n\n12:01.676 --> 12:12.301\n能夠好好的真正的完整性的來討論才不會每一年的撥補每一年的漲價加油是謝謝大家用我們一起努力謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.856,"end":6.36,"text":"謝謝主席 陽泉發言人邀請次長來 次長"},{"start":14.978,"end":42.105,"text":"委員好市長好台灣極端氣候日益的嚴峻不管是颱風、豪暴雨這一些的洪患或者是乾旱那麼用水的問題可以說是憨老病悲狀況是越來越多在這樣的情況之下我們水資源管理當然是重中之重那淹水的方面本席也肯定政府有所作為"},{"start":42.845,"end":50.627,"text":"包括我們台中市面對這個強大的這個強降雨淹水的面積我們是減少尤其根據經濟部的資料顯示113年7月份的凱米颱風那24小時之內累計的這個降雨量是近期颱風或者好暴雨它是最高的但是它的總淹的面積是比107年8月23號的"},{"start":72.311,"end":89.942,"text":"這個豪暴雨它是大幅的一個減少不過在國科會跟環境部也提出報告未來平均退估降雨增加會有約15%那降雨的變化弧度也隨著全球的一個暖化"},{"start":90.802,"end":115.542,"text":"而日益的來增加那以後不管是乾季乾季可能是在1月到4月份的時候它會越乾那5月到10月份它會越濕在這樣的一個情況之下也表示極端的一日暴雨強降雨它會日劇的嚴峻而且會增強那當然台中市目前的治理我們也努力做得不錯"},{"start":116.323,"end":143.902,"text":"等于是月亮大但是我们淹水的面积呢跟中央一样也是这个面积是有缩小的但是本席要在这边讲113年的凯米台风为例虽然我们各项的工程都有发挥了这个效能出来但是我们看到这些极端的暴雨会造成中南部跟易淹水地区那您是专家您是专家请教"},{"start":144.542,"end":160.923,"text":"对于未来发展经济部对于这个一烟水地区的防洪计划你的具体措施跟你的目标那如何的能够因应自己以台中市为例要怎么样来协助具体的方案请做说明"},{"start":161.38,"end":176.54,"text":"而且我也知道根據我們過去的努力我們淹水的面積台中市是有改善的所以我們具體的做法所以我們會再盤點整個台中市一淹水的地區可能不做十年前了"},{"start":177,"end":203.526,"text":"可能會在別的地方或是新開發出來的地方所以基本上我們的治理除了工程面用系統性的治理之外法規面也要精進所謂法規面是新開發的區域我們希望不要造成雨林為禍的狀況所以要求開發商他要多增加滯洪跟除流在自己的基地裡面自己基地產生的水自己基地來溶"},{"start":204.406,"end":230.003,"text":"這一點我們當時抗旱的時候我們連建築工地的湖流水我們都把它吸出來這個是太感動了這也就是中央跟地方一起團結嘛才能夠這麼做所以剛剛市長您說的在法規面以及具體的工程方面我們滾動式的去檢討還有另外非常重要我也一直在說明包括各位委員都重視了清書啊"},{"start":230.882,"end":253.279,"text":"但現在離汛水要來差不多一個多月時間嘛所以把這個所謂的下水道啊包括我們的雨水下水道做清疏是一個很有用的一個做法所以你也把以台中市為例我們現在做得不錯中央地方合作但是我們也要超前部署因應強教育以及"},{"start":253.899,"end":256.74,"text":"這個軟化的問題有精進的方案請給本席接下來我們來討論抗旱的這個部分因為抗旱跟水資源的管理市長在國科會智庫DSET當中的他發布了半導體產業水電"},{"start":271.704,"end":280.729,"text":"的需求報告那麼他也提出了這個乾旱的恐怕讓先程製水來缺水那例如台積電的先進製程他大概每日的用水就要10萬到15萬公噸10萬到15萬公噸相當是一個中型城市的每日用水"},{"start":290.715,"end":316.29,"text":"但是DSET裡頭提出水利署的2036年規劃的目標裡頭沒有將台積電以及其他相當的廠商的擴廠需求納入在你的評估所以優先我們的水資源這個提供是不確定性市長你之前也有所回應針對於整個產業用水是不是有預留這個評估請做說明"},{"start":318.671,"end":339.257,"text":"絕對有包括台中市我們現在積極的發展我們現在做的珍珠串裡面包括大安大甲的聯合運用計畫在明年就可以完成了那這個部分進度是超前的那它產生也可以讓兩個水庫產生一加一大於二我們知道台中的水源第一個來自大"},{"start":340.138,"end":355.697,"text":"大安溪第二個來自大甲溪這兩個水源運用起來就可以了那另外產業的需要的用水我們一再的強調他不要去排擠到現在的用水人的用水量所以我們會要求他多使用再生水"},{"start":356.698,"end":377.93,"text":"然後多使用他自己廠區裡面重複利用的這個水量所以換句話說也就是我們一定要預留這個評估量而且運用多元的方式我們一定要積極努力這麼做來協助所有需要用水的人這個是非常的重要"},{"start":378.47,"end":400.083,"text":"那麼遇到那個旱災的時候我們常常提取也就是各大水庫的這個預計嚴重那我們也在清淤目前的清淤狀況進度如何而且我們的執行計畫如何進行 請做說明我們這幾年的水庫清淤是每年都創新高"},{"start":400.936,"end":420.417,"text":"那我們會超過一年超過1800萬立方公尺的這個氫餘量對 因為尤其在旱的時候是最好清的我們必須要加強這個力道那這個當然這幾年我們也清的還不錯我們也希望精進再精進一起來加油"},{"start":421.018,"end":425.381,"text":"接下來我要跟你討論的是我們的電價的問題因為禮拜五也宣布了那本期要跟你討論的也就是說能源政策錯誤到底什麼時候才要面對因為我們考量了國際關稅的一個變化跟整個地緣政治的一個風險所以當然這是你們說的決議四月份而且聽到了民意電價不漲而且要經濟部"},{"start":450.256,"end":468.164,"text":"全力的來爭取撥補的這個事宜但是次長公堂撥補也是人民的血汗錢在向人民伸手要錢之前我們政府應該要好好的去面對去解決能源政策錯誤的問題說清楚台電何時能夠止損否則撥補再撥補到底什麼時候才有盡頭 請做說明"},{"start":476.457,"end":482.244,"text":"首先跟委員說明台電目前累積4200億的虧損主要是來自於民國111年跟112年國際燃料價格的大漲"},{"start":490.007,"end":510.024,"text":"這是第一點 第二點比如說外界常常會去指教的是因為我們不用核電 我們說核電延益了事實上以國際核能能源佔比相當多的我們鄰近的國家 韓國為例他們的電價還比我們高 他們虧損也是比我們多你這麼說法 我必須要跟你來討論重點"},{"start":514.568,"end":516.709,"text":"你們一再說韓國的電價是如何但是我們真正要討論的是你廢掉了核電最便宜的1.42元你買了高貴的綠電那同時到底我們囤購的"},{"start":531.994,"end":540.879,"text":"這個價格會不會降我們購電綠電的量會不會降這是要針對於能源配比真正的解決問題因為在台電的部分光光一月份他們的財務報表說出是121億的虧損我們不希望台電成為財務的黑洞啊如果沒有真正的解決這些問題那麼撥補再撥補漲價再漲價"},{"start":559.568,"end":567.111,"text":"要讓人民成為提款機這是人民沒有辦法接受的所以我還是要請市長針對於台電的財務我們必須要真正的去討論我們的電來源到底要怎麼做 核電會不會續用會不會續用 請教市長"},{"start":579.566,"end":596.186,"text":"首先核電的部分第一個核能安全要兼顧核廢料要能處理社會要有共識基本上這三個原則來處理一下我們面對新的核能的技術我們政府始終保持開放的態度好 這一句開放"},{"start":597.708,"end":625.16,"text":"你開放的態度非常好所以現在在立法院環境基本法以及現在在教育委員會的核寬法正在審議在這樣的情況之下請問行政院你經濟部會不會送法案到立法院來因為現在都是朝野立委的一個法案行政院會不會送來會不會送 有沒有這個計畫 請教"},{"start":626.681,"end":646.998,"text":"我們現在對於電的這個使用我們依法行政啦 目前設施管制辦法 基本上那個是原農會所主管的請教那是原農會所主管的行政院會不會送來啊 因為行政院告訴我們是如此開放的態度經濟部也告訴我們開放的態度 那請問行政院會不會送來"},{"start":648.244,"end":671.69,"text":"他是在討論核能設施管理辦法他是研議的部分嘛 環境基本法也就是到底我們核能要不要用嘛所以這個跟你經濟部絕對有最重要的關鍵點所以我們也希望我們也希望不要把人民當提款機我們也不希望台電成為財務黑洞由政府真正的來解決問題因為我們要問一句話到底什麼時候才不會給我們人民漲價漲電價"},{"start":678.064,"end":695.493,"text":"我跟委員說明 即便我們用2016年以前的能源結構來試算的話以2023的國際燃油的價格 我們的平均的成本也超過4塊比現在的台電所提出來的這個成本還高於"},{"start":696.033,"end":702.479,"text":"市長這個方案如果不改台電已經提出2026年到2027年他沒有辦法自負盈虧啦所以你如果沒有真正解決台電能源的來源你永遠沒有辦法解決他的虧損啦這是我們今天討論的重點提供給你參考我們希望一起好好的協助台電能夠將他的能源配比"},{"start":721.676,"end":732.301,"text":"能夠好好的真正的完整性的來討論才不會每一年的撥補 每一年的漲價加油是 謝謝 大家用我們一起努力 謝謝委員謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":359,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時17分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請次長。"],["主席：請賴次長。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長好。臺灣極端氣候問題日益嚴峻，不管是颱風、豪暴雨等這些洪患或者是乾旱，用水的問題可以說是旱澇並備，狀況是越來越多，在這樣的情況之下，我們的水資源管理當然是重中之重。","在淹水方面，本席也肯定政府有所作為，包括我們臺中市，面對強大的強降雨，淹水的面積是有減少，尤其根據經濟部的資料顯示，113年7月份的凱米颱風，24小時之內累計的降雨量是近期颱風或者豪暴雨中最高的，但是它的總淹水面積卻比107年8月23號的豪暴雨大幅減少。不過國科會跟環境部也提出報告，推估未來平均降雨會增加約15%，降雨的變化幅度也隨著全球的暖化而日益增加，以後是乾季（乾季可能是在1月到4月份）會越乾，5月到10月份會越溼，在這樣的一個情況之下，也表示極端的一日暴雨、強降雨會日趨嚴峻，而且會增強。","當然，以臺中市目前的治理來說，我們也努力做得不錯，雖然降雨量增大，但是我們淹水的面積跟中央一樣，也是有縮小的。但是本席要在這邊講的是，以113年的凱米颱風為例，雖然我們各項的工程都有發揮了效能出來，但是我們看到這些極端的暴雨會造成中南部易淹水地區成災，您是專家，請教未來經濟部對於易淹水地區的防洪計畫的具體措施跟目標，以及如何能夠因地制宜，以臺中市為例，要怎麼樣來協助？具體的方案請做說明。"],["賴次長建信：謝謝委員的指導，根據我們過去的努力，以淹水的面積來看，臺中市是有改善的，所以我們具體的作法……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，這是中央、地方合作成功，謝謝。"],["賴次長建信：所以我們會再盤點整個臺中市易淹水的地區，可能不若10年前了，可能會在別的地方或是新開發出來的地方，所以基本上我們除了在工程面用系統性的方式來治理之外，法規面也要精進，所謂法規面是新開發的區域，我們希望不要造成以鄰為壑的狀況，所以要求開發商要多增加滯洪跟貯留在自己的基地裡面，自己基地產生的水自己基地來容，不要造成別人……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這一點，我們當時在抗旱的時候是連建築工地的伏流水都把它吸出來，這個是太感動了，這也就是中央跟地方一起團結嘛，才能夠這麼做。所以剛剛次長所說的，在法規面以及具體的工程方面，我們滾動式的去檢討。"],["賴次長建信：還有另外非常重要的，委員也一直有提到、各位委員也都很重視的清疏，我們現在離汛期要來差不多有一個月的時間……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：超前部署嘛！"],["賴次長建信：所以把所有的下水道，包括我們的雨水下水道做清疏，是一個很有用的作法。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，以臺中市為例，我們現在做得不錯，中央跟地方合作，但是我們也要超前部署，因應強降雨以及暖化的問題，有精進的方案請給本席。","接下來我們來討論抗旱的部分，有關抗旱跟水資源的管理，次長，國科會智庫DSET發布了半導體產業水電使用需求報告，報告指出乾旱恐怕會讓先進製程缺水，例如台積電的先進製程工廠每日總用水量就要10萬至15萬公噸，相當於一個中型城市的每日用水量，但是DSET的報告中提出，水利署的2036年規劃目標裡面並沒有將台積電以及其他相當廠商的擴廠需求納入評估，所以憂心我們水資源的提供是有不確定性。次長，你之前也有所回應，針對整個產業用水，你們是不是有預留量的評估？請做說明。"],["賴次長建信：絕對有，包括臺中市，我們現在積極的發展，我們現在做的珍珠串計畫裡面，包括大安、大甲溪聯合運用計畫在明年就可以完成了，這個部分進度是超前的，它也可以讓兩個水庫產生一加一大於二的效益，我們知道臺中的水源第一個來自大安溪，第二個來自大甲溪，這兩個水源運用起來就可以了。","另外，產業所需要的用水，我們一再的強調，不要去排擠到現在用水人的用水量，所以我們會要求它多使用再生水，多使用它自己廠區裡面重複利用的水量。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以換句話說，也就是我們一定要預留這個評估量，而且運用多元的方式……"],["賴次長建信：這個有，這個報告已經有了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多元的方式，我們一定要積極努力這麼做，來協助所有需要用水的人，這個是非常的重要。"],["賴次長建信：好，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：以往遇到旱災的時候，我們常常提到各大水庫的淤積嚴重，我們也在清淤，目前的清淤狀況及進度如何？我們的執行計畫要如何精進？請做說明。"],["賴次長建信：我們這幾年的水庫清淤是每年都創新高，一年會有超過1,800萬立方公尺的清淤量，但是基本上……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，尤其在旱的時候是最好清的，我們必須要加強這個力道。當然，這幾年我們也清得還不錯，我們也希望精進再精進，一起來加油。"],["賴次長建信：是，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來我要跟你討論有關電價的問題，因為禮拜五已經宣布了，本席要跟你討論的就是，能源政策錯誤的問題，到底什麼時候才要面對？因為我們考量到國際關稅的變化跟整個地緣政治的風險，當然，這是你們說的，而且也聽到了民意，所以決議4月份電價不漲，而且要經濟部全力的來爭取撥補的事宜，但是次長，公帑撥補也是使用人民的血汗錢，在向人民伸手要錢之前，我們政府應該要好好的去面對、去解決能源政策錯誤的問題，說清楚台電何時能夠止損，否則撥補再撥補，到底什麼時候才能有盡頭？請做說明。"],["賴次長建信：首先跟委員說明，台電目前累積4,200億的虧損，主要是來自於民國111年跟112年國際燃料價格的大漲，這是第一點。第二點，外界常常會指教的是，因為我們不用核電，希望我們的核電延役。事實上，以國際能源上核能占比相當多的國家、我們鄰近的國家──韓國為例，他們的電價還比我們高，他們的虧損也是比我們多，但是他們的國家有補貼他們。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，對於你這個說法，我必須要跟你來討論重點，你們一再說韓國的電價是如何，但是我們真正要討論的是，你廢掉了核電最便宜的1.42元，你買了高貴的綠電，同時，到底我們的躉購價格會不會降？我們購買綠電的量會不會降？這是要針對能源配比真正要的解決問題。因為在台電的部分，光是1月份，他們的財務報表顯示是121億的虧損，我們不希望台電成為財務的黑洞啊！如果沒有真正的解決這些問題，那麼撥補再撥補、漲價再漲價，要讓人民成為提款機，這是人民沒有辦法接受的！所以我還是要請次長，對於台電的財務，我們必須要真正的去討論，我們的電來源到底要怎麼做？核電會不會續用？會不會續用？"],["賴次長建信：首先，有關核電的部分，必須是核能安全要兼顧、核廢料要能處理以及社會要有共識，基本上在這三個原則下，面對新的核能技術，我們政府始終保持開放的態度，但是跟委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，這句「開放的態度」非常好，所以現在立法院的環境基本法以及在教育委員會的核管法都正在審議，在這樣的情況之下，請問行政院、經濟部會不會送法案到立法院來？因為現在都是朝野立委的法案，行政院會不會送來？會不會送？有沒有這個計畫？"],["賴次長建信：我們現在對於電的使用是依法行政，目前……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會不會送？"],["賴次長建信：核能設施管制辦法基本上是原能會所主管的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，當然，行政院會不會送來啊？因為行政院告訴我們是採取開放的態度，經濟部也告訴我們保持開放的態度，那請問行政院會不會送來？會不會送來？"],["賴次長建信：他是在討論核能設施管理辦法……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是延役的部分嘛，環境基本法部分也就是到底我們核能要不要用嘛，所以這個跟經濟部絕對有最重要的關鍵點，我們也希望不要把人民當提款機，我們也不希望台電成為財務黑洞，由政府真正的來解決問題，我們想要問一句話，到底什麼時候才不會給我們人民漲電價？"],["賴次長建信：跟委員說明，即便我們用2016年以前的能源結構來試算，以2023年的國際燃油的價格，我們的平均成本也超過4塊，比現在台電所提出來的這個成本還高，國際能源使用核能最多的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，這個方案如果不改，台電已經提出2026年到2027年就沒有辦法自負盈虧了啦，所以你如果沒有真正解決台電能源的來源，也就永遠沒有辦法解決它的虧損啦！這是我們今天討論的重點，提供給你參考，我們希望一起協助台電將它的能源配比能夠好好的、真正的、完整性的來討論，才不會每一年撥補但每一年漲價。加油！"],["賴次長建信：是，謝謝，電是大家用，我們一起努力，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","在張啓楷委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘，現在請張啓楷委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-6","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","鄭正鈐","陳超明","鍾佳濱","蔡易餘","葉元之","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-03-31"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、農業部部長、內政部首長及國家科學及技術委員會首長就「2025年防洪抗旱計\n畫」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00003"}}}