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69.984, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"路\", \"start\": 69.984, \"end\": 70.265, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"網\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 70.265, \"end\": 70.365, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 70.365, \"end\": 70.585, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 70.585, \"end\": 70.865, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 70.865, \"end\": 70.885, \"score\": 0.821}]}, {\"start\": 71.905, \"end\": 89.85, \"text\": \"那這樣的方向其實本席都認同我剛剛聽了我們國土署吳興修署長的這些說明其實也蠻清楚這個東西當然申請都非常非常的踴躍從中央政府的角度來看只有很困擾因為這個餅不夠大大家都希望可以來爭取補助所以執行率也非常好這一點本席都非常肯定不過本席要藉這樣一個機會來進行一些討論這個未來這個財化法要上路對不對\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 71.905, \"end\": 72.145, \"score\": 0.713}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 72.145, \"end\": 72.225, \"score\": 0.638}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 72.225, \"end\": 72.385, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 72.385, \"end\": 72.565, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 72.565, \"end\": 72.745, 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\"那我覺得中央如果資源變小這樣子來分配來講其實是對於大家都比較好的有各縣市自己要處理的道路你各縣市要多擔負一點責任但是跨域的因為沒有辦法協調可能會卡關對不對所以中央要來多幫忙請問署長你認不認同這樣的政策方向其實中央能做大概是跨域的協調啦因為我想經費的部分最後還是要看分配出來因為其實有時候縣市政府不太想做有時候可能是地理條件的問題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 290.305, \"end\": 290.425, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 290.425, \"end\": 290.665, \"score\": 0.735}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 290.665, \"end\": 290.785, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 290.785, \"end\": 290.925, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"央\", \"start\": 290.925, \"end\": 291.066, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 291.066, \"end\": 291.146, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 291.146, \"end\": 291.346, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 291.346, \"end\": 291.606, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 291.606, \"end\": 291.946, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 291.946, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"劉\"}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 882.924, \"end\": 883.044, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"廷\", \"start\": 883.044, \"end\": 883.204, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 883.204, \"end\": 883.345, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"劉\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 883.345, \"end\": 883.625, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 883.625, \"end\": 883.645, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,130 --> 00:00:10,722\n謝謝主席啊這內政部跟國土署有請我們請內政部長還有國土署的首長趙偉豪\n\n2\n00:00:15,994 --> 00:00:45,074\n部長早安今天的質詢當然跟解凍有一定的關係但其實每一個題目凍結都是監督的延伸所以我們希望透過這樣東西來做一下政策對話今天本期的質詢有兩個重點第一個我們探討一下你未來生活圈的道路補助的一些用法跟未來因應也許財化法等等上路之後要不要做一些檢討我們可以先進行一些政策討論第二部分我們要針對道路品質的部分跟內政部來請教一下相關的一些規範\n\n3\n00:00:48,095 --> 00:01:10,885\n第一個我們有看這大部分的生活圈的道路系統建設計畫就本席的了解這個計畫大概基本上都是補助各個縣市政府各個地方政府針對這個轄內的市區道路做打通也好或者是新闢或者是整修等等的一些相關計畫當然就是希望改善各個城市內部的交通路網的完整性\n\n4\n00:01:11,905 --> 00:01:29,850\n那這樣的方向其實本席都認同我剛剛聽了我們國土署吳興修署長的這些說明其實也蠻清楚這個東西當然申請都非常非常的踴躍從中央政府的角度來看只有很困擾因為這個餅不夠大大家都希望可以來爭取補助所以執行率也非常好這一點本席都非常肯定不過本席要藉這樣一個機會來進行一些討論這個未來這個財化法要上路對不對\n\n5\n00:01:33,971 --> 00:01:49,732\n那換言之一定會排擠到中央的預算也一定涉及到市權的調整這本席充分的理解那我希望跟內政部來做一下討論啦就是說我們國土組現在有很多的道路補助計畫其實直接下給地方政府但是你如果財化法之後各個地方政府的經費是增加的\n\n6\n00:01:50,253 --> 00:02:10,405\n對不對那增加的時候那當然中央沒有辦法像過去一樣有這麼好的預算規模可以全部來做補助所以我今天要討論的是市權的調整的部分我現在要請教我們的部長請教我們署長的地方是說我們現在有除了這個生活圈的道路交通建設計畫是針對各個縣市內部的道路以外針對跨域的道路啊\n\n7\n00:02:11,386 --> 00:02:32,228\n這個中央政府有沒有特別的想法我舉一個例子比如說我龜山一個非常大家期待的一個建設這是我們龜山的大平頂地區就有一個壽山路就從我們龜山的平頂地區要銜接新北的新莊地區這其實是一個上班族通勤每天都會塞車的那以前因為龜山的地勢嘛因為有山路的關係所以很狹窄上下班的時候難免塞車嘛\n\n8\n00:02:32,868 --> 00:02:59,785\n那加上這邊的A7重化區很多的鄉親搬進來那當然都希望交通可以再改善那這件事情桃園市政府跟新北市政府其實有做過一些協商好可是問題來了從桃園的角度很多人要來長庚醫院來環亞科上班我這邊的住戶也變多了可是從新北的角度它不見得有助於對新北的這個交通需求來講它就沒有很大就變成說常常這種跨縣市的道路建設常常有這種有一個很想做有一個不太想做\n\n9\n00:03:00,245 --> 00:03:14,574\n那這個東西如果兩邊沒有達成共識它其實工程就進行延宕的一個狀態像現在桃園市政府其實有一個概念嘛我就進行拓寬然後進行環形高架這當然就有大建設但請問這樣子的一個建設喔除了兩地縣市政府要自己達成共識之外中央有沒有角色\n\n10\n00:03:16,718 --> 00:03:41,233\n可以報告一下因為過去的確在指引跨縣市的時候那如果同屬生活圈的部分大概都會一定會有這個協調跨部會因為尤其像這種跨縣市的很可能都會涉及到內政部跟交通部之間也要做跨部會的協調才有辦法那這是第一個第二個就是說這也涉及到經費分配的原則所以\n\n11\n00:03:42,013 --> 00:03:58,881\n加上未來加上財化法這樣的一個方式那很可能在以後的這個第一個是市權第二個是財化法以後整個監會分配那更需要跨縣市跟跨部會來做一個整理像這個案子應該也是其中的一個\n\n12\n00:03:59,581 --> 00:04:14,651\n會遇到淚灘我覺得我今天提的概念是這樣就你現行生活權你講五年好像兩百多億嘛對不對每年數十億的這樣一個經費你都是補助各縣政府在縣市內的嘛城市內的道路嘛對不對那這個東西一定會降下來嘛因為我如果財化法我要允許一部分出去撥給地方政府對不對\n\n13\n00:04:15,111 --> 00:04:39,966\n那你也不會全部歸零嘛我想應該不至於會全部歸零你中央還是會有一部分可以調度的經費本身就建議嘛就是說如果未來財務法上路之後我地方縣市政府自己城市內部的經費變多了他城市內部的道路他當然就自己要負責的比例就更高那相對來講你中央的餅雖然變小了我希望中央可以調整一下政策邏輯也就是說我中央可以調度之後我就要以資源跨域的為主嘛\n\n14\n00:04:40,286 --> 00:04:49,299\n就以資源跨域跨域的建設為主嘛像這樣有些比如桃園想做新北不要那麼想中央來多幫忙是不是就降低這件事情這個成功的門檻\n\n15\n00:04:50,305 --> 00:05:16,643\n那我覺得中央如果資源變小這樣子來分配來講其實是對於大家都比較好的有各縣市自己要處理的道路你各縣市要多擔負一點責任但是跨域的因為沒有辦法協調可能會卡關對不對所以中央要來多幫忙請問署長你認不認同這樣的政策方向其實中央能做大概是跨域的協調啦因為我想經費的部分最後還是要看分配出來因為其實有時候縣市政府不太想做有時候可能是地理條件的問題\n\n16\n00:05:18,100 --> 00:05:40,674\n它不單純是經費的問題是地理條件的問題像這條壽山路大概我們之前也有跟新北市政府討論過那它也是覺得因為在它的這個範圍內執行上還要再拓寬的話以現有的地理條件是相對是困難度很高的所以它大概意願度是比較低所以它需要比較多的跨部會跟跨縣市的協調\n\n17\n00:05:42,115 --> 00:06:08,007\n我想這才是在如果未來要做這件事的話那像我們之前協調這一個河美大橋那就是從台中到彰化那其實就是部會也有協調縣市也有協調他才能有努力的所以那都不單純是經濟的問題就地勢的部分之所以會變成很大的阻力就是因為譬如說我要上下山或你剛剛講的河美大橋我要跨越河流他的經費是高的嘛所以對於縣市這種壓力是大的我才講嘛\n\n18\n00:06:08,527 --> 00:06:24,192\n所以這種跨域的不好處理的你中央要多補助一點嘛我覺得這樣子比較合理也比較公平那各城市內部的未來就是有財務法之後來處理這是本期的一個政策建議不只是這個壽山路的拓寬比如說這個湖山街從我們的這個龜山的這個兔坑\n\n19\n00:06:24,992 --> 00:06:47,561\n大兔坑地區銜接到英哥其實也是同樣的道理就因為跨越了縣市的界限但是沒辦法做這我想部長也好署長也好都了解全國各地不只是桃園其實都有很多這樣跨域的道路我希望因為現在生活圈道路看起來比較沒有支援到跨域的部分嘛對不對其實都有也是有但是相對來講你如果全部都要照顧的話你一定是增多周少嘛\n\n20\n00:06:47,901 --> 00:07:08,847\n對不對未來就調整的時候我希望看到內政部跟國土組在政策上面稍微做一下思考怎麼樣在跨域的這樣子的建設上面加大補助的力道讓這些東西可以落地我想這是中央很好的成績啦這是本席的藉由今天的專案報告所提的第一個政策建議希望部長跟署長稍微研擬一下會後用書面來回復一下可行性可以嗎了解\n\n21\n00:07:10,441 --> 00:07:32,928\n好謝謝第二個本期要關注的也叫做道路的品質的部分因為你們這裡面那個三件事情嘛其中有一段是道路品質的部分很多人都講啊就說這個路平其實明明就是一個很基本的東西那為什麼幾十年下來大家都執政過中央地方都換過怎麼還是搞不定呢這個希望花一點時間來請教一下這我們內政部現在齁現在齁這個\n\n22\n00:07:35,149 --> 00:07:49,746\n道路品質的問題很多時候都講我們其實都有編列這個重新跑舖的預算嘛然後我們在重新跑舖的時候也都會把品質做好這個我倒覺得問題比較小但是只有一個問題是你不可能全台灣的道路都重新跑舖嘛所以一定會有中間的過渡期\n\n23\n00:07:50,046 --> 00:08:04,976\n那加上什麼管線啊開挖等等所以真正會造成各地的路不平的問題其實都是有管線工程然後他中間在等待重新跑舖過程中叫做假修復嘛也就是說施工單位先行進行修復的這樣一個狀況好問題來了假修復就會出事啊比如說這條文化一路這個變成越野賽道\n\n24\n00:08:11,980 --> 00:08:37,043\n一邊聾起來一邊凹下去那其實非常危險那當然就是台電的修復品質不好嘛對不對我想請問的是如果假修復的品質不好現在除了各縣市政府當然我們桃園養工處去開一個罰單除了這種不痛不癢的裁罰之外中央有沒有一套比如說針對假修復的品質有一套完整的規範然後針對沒有辦法做到的有沒有一些懲罰的機制是不是可以請內政部或國土署來做一下說明\n\n25\n00:08:38,721 --> 00:09:00,103\n好說明一下因為這一個所謂的一個道路管挖修補或者是說在相關的這個建案他必須要接管他必須要做這個相關的挖路在鋪其實在各縣市的這屬於養護的部分各縣市其實都有訂定相關的跑鋪的一個處理的機制那我們在\n\n26\n00:09:00,743 --> 00:09:12,767\n但是因為他是屬於他不屬於這個條例他不屬於法令所以大概都是用注意事項或者是說在這個復原的部分我准不准許你在我這個做驗收\n\n27\n00:09:14,898 --> 00:09:41,178\n最常出現大概第一個就是說我的回填品質不佳對這是第一個大問題回填品質不佳那往往就是回填的集配料裡面品質不好那或者是說我回填的時候我這個水泥的灌漿的部分也沒有做好那這是第二個那但是關鍵是在於說它在整個道路養護的部分本來就是地方權責第二個我們也是希望地方政府能夠把它提升到類似自治條例的\n\n28\n00:09:41,798 --> 00:10:07,095\n的標準那這樣他才有懲罰的依據否則我們目前知道大多數他是沒有所謂的處罰那因為你有相關的處罰或沒收相關的這個保證金或相關的這個那對於這個包商他才會有他才會有這樣的一個約束力這是我們後續能夠要求地方政府來進行的這個部分把他位階提升或許會比較好\n\n29\n00:10:07,375 --> 00:10:34,569\n好我覺得署長今天這個回答非常的具體啊可以當一回事來處理啦就是說因為這個道路假修復品質不佳的狀況其實到處都是啊到處都是道路補丁啊鋪得不好啊然後造成一大堆的爭議等等那現有的力道是不足夠的我剛剛其實有看到這個包含當初解凍的理由都在講嘛就是說有關於一些道路的品質啊路夠不夠平啊修復的品質好不好等等其實都是它其實也可以被列為補助的參考我覺得這種東西啊不過我跟委員報告一下因為我們當時\n\n30\n00:10:36,030 --> 00:11:04,844\n尤其提升道路品質我們要看的是那一種長期年久失修的年久失修那一個才是因為我們是有整段道路的PCI的這個指數在做一個你既有的標準這我理解因為我看你的書面回覆其實寫得很清楚也就是說其實品質越不好其實表示跟地方政府財務等等他更需要中央的支持這一點我完全同意但我希望未來你把假修復的品質我只是針對假修復這件事情也就是說我有開挖我有請其他人等等然後假修復修得很爛的\n\n31\n00:11:05,504 --> 00:11:27,322\n你要有一些處罰的機制它可以是你中央召集各個縣市政府來作為譬如說位階的提升啊或者是標準的修正或者是你可以善用你補助的這個額度把它納入一定的KPI或者是核定的辦法我覺得這是可以思考的方向這種東西不分縣市的因為這種東西一定要做好跟大家的生活品質有關啦好不好是不是針對這一部分我們一樣來研究一下我說明一下好了就是說\n\n32\n00:11:29,404 --> 00:11:45,227\n大概以中央來講大概第一個就是說我們是可以針對相關的國營事業就管線單位我們大概年度都有做一些檢討那這個部分是我們可以來做但是因為相關的這一個養護的一個標準跟這個條例的訂定\n\n33\n00:11:46,038 --> 00:12:15,602\n那這個我們是來督促地方政府來訂定這並不是說中央自己單獨立法我理解我的意思是說你可以召集縣市政府來商量然後大家標準也有標準因為其實省紀部他當時的報告當然以我們來講啦以我們來講我們會覺得大概對一些非六都的縣市是相對不公平非六都的條件本來就差那所以即使我做了一些補助他也不可能快速的提升當然不能以這樣的理由又說他的交通條件不好\n\n34\n00:12:16,141 --> 00:12:45,129\n那表示執行不佳其實這有點雞生蛋蛋生雞的問題這個其實我覺得所以我才講重點只有假修復嘛因為假修復大家都有所以我才會更為報導說這就是為什麼您當時在提這一件事情說要來提這個專案報告我們也會覺得怪怪的但是其實我想都是尊重在否則以我們來講我們會覺得原來的這個內容就寫得很奇怪原來的內容就是寫得很奇怪的東西這個提案的內容都會可受公平這個是大家都已經知道的事情這一段時間了好等一下但是\n\n35\n00:12:45,950 --> 00:12:58,549\n該走的程序都走而且其實喔藉由這樣的東西來做政策研討我覺得對大家來講也不是一件壞事部長要補充說明嗎您剛提到有關道路品質修復不佳的部分那個其實有一些縣市地方政府他們會透過議會來制定這個單行條例\n\n36\n00:13:02,134 --> 00:13:21,216\n這種單行法規它的約束力才會比較強沒錯譬如說以我們以前高雄市在處理的時候就是你新的道路有的時候已經鋪好了不到一個月就開始要有人要裝電線、水管或者旁邊有新蓋的大樓那其實你只要道路的品質有一條開始破壞掉其他就完全破壞掉\n\n37\n00:13:21,856 --> 00:13:40,665\n那所以透過養護的這個單位呢它在地方縣市政府的執行率比較強其實我們會鼓勵每個縣市地方政府尤其是非六都的部分它如果能夠有這樣的單行法規來強制可以開挖的單位呢它一定在一定的法定時間或一定的品質的狀況之下才能夠確保否則中央如果幫忙他們的話只會像剛剛署長所說的因為你本來就不好了\n\n38\n00:13:46,988 --> 00:14:10,755\n然後就要開挖越多然後修復越多那就變成是一個惡性循環那道路的品質就不好就會被審計部然後有告訴我們說哪個地方有很多不同的缺點所以其實這是中央跟地方政委要一起努力的好謝謝部長的補充說明其實我的概念也是這樣就是說你有什麼樣的方式可以召集可以鼓勵嘛比如說我願意做單行法規然後加強管束的我就覺得補助的時候優先性高一點我覺得這就是中央可以處理的事\n\n39\n00:14:11,095 --> 00:14:38,201\n當然我會給你空間因為我們想把問題點出來我一定要給你行政機關一點時間去溝通去嘗試然後我們再來檢視成效啦好但這個假修復的問題如果可以在這個我們這次政府的任內有一個很好的升級對於地方政府中央怎麼都會加分啊所以今天本期提兩個第一個是未來的道路圈的補助希望多增加跨越的部分第二個針對道路假修復的品質要求希望我們的政府大家中央跟地方都要再更積極一點希望我們國務署也好內政部也好把這次當一回事來辦好嗎好謝謝\n\n40\n00:14:42,924 --> 00:14:43,645\n謝謝劉學廷的質詢謝謝劉部長謝謝吳署長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5130\t10722\t謝謝主席啊這內政部跟國土署有請我們請內政部長還有國土署的首長趙偉豪\n15994\t45074\t部長 早安今天的質詢當然跟解凍有一定的關係但其實每一個題目凍結都是監督的延伸所以我們希望透過這樣東西來做一下政策對話今天本期的質詢有兩個重點第一個我們探討一下你未來生活圈的道路補助的一些用法跟未來因應也許財化法等等上路之後要不要做一些檢討我們可以先進行一些政策討論第二部分我們要針對道路品質的部分跟內政部來請教一下相關的一些規範\n48095\t70885\t第一個我們有看這大部分的生活圈的道路系統建設計畫就本席的了解這個計畫大概基本上都是補助各個縣市政府各個地方政府針對這個轄內的市區道路做打通也好或者是新闢或者是整修等等的一些相關計畫當然就是希望改善各個城市內部的交通路網的完整性\n71905\t89850\t那這樣的方向其實本席都認同我剛剛聽了我們國土署吳興修署長的這些說明其實也蠻清楚這個東西當然申請都非常非常的踴躍從中央政府的角度來看只有很困擾因為這個餅不夠大大家都希望可以來爭取補助所以執行率也非常好這一點本席都非常肯定不過本席要藉這樣一個機會來進行一些討論這個未來這個財化法要上路對不對\n93971\t109732\t那換言之一定會排擠到中央的預算也一定涉及到市權的調整這本席充分的理解那我希望跟內政部來做一下討論啦就是說我們國土組現在有很多的道路補助計畫其實直接下給地方政府但是你如果財化法之後各個地方政府的經費是增加的\n110253\t130405\t對不對那增加的時候那當然中央沒有辦法像過去一樣有這麼好的預算規模可以全部來做補助所以我今天要討論的是市權的調整的部分我現在要請教我們的部長請教我們署長的地方是說我們現在有除了這個生活圈的道路交通建設計畫是針對各個縣市內部的道路以外針對跨域的道路啊\n131386\t152228\t這個中央政府有沒有特別的想法我舉一個例子比如說我龜山一個非常大家期待的一個建設這是我們龜山的大平頂地區就有一個壽山路就從我們龜山的平頂地區要銜接新北的新莊地區這其實是一個上班族通勤每天都會塞車的那以前因為龜山的地勢嘛因為有山路的關係所以很狹窄上下班的時候難免塞車嘛\n152868\t179785\t那加上這邊的A7重化區 很多的鄉親搬進來那當然都希望交通可以再改善那這件事情 桃園市政府跟新北市政府其實有做過一些協商好 可是問題來了從桃園的角度 很多人要來長庚醫院 來環亞科上班我這邊的住戶也變多了可是從新北的角度 它不見得有助於對新北的這個交通需求來講 它就沒有很大就變成說常常這種跨縣市的道路建設常常有這種 有一個很想做 有一個不太想做\n180245\t194574\t那這個東西如果兩邊沒有達成共識它其實工程就進行延宕的一個狀態像現在桃園市政府其實有一個概念嘛我就進行拓寬然後進行環形高架這當然就有大建設但請問這樣子的一個建設喔除了兩地縣市政府要自己達成共識之外中央有沒有角色\n196718\t221233\t可以報告一下因為過去的確在指引跨縣市的時候那如果同屬生活圈的部分大概都會一定會有這個協調跨部會因為尤其像這種跨縣市的很可能都會涉及到內政部跟交通部之間也要做跨部會的協調才有辦法那這是第一個第二個就是說這也涉及到經費分配的原則所以\n222013\t238881\t加上未來加上財化法這樣的一個方式那很可能在以後的這個第一個是市權第二個是財化法以後整個監會分配那更需要跨縣市跟跨部會來做一個整理像這個案子應該也是其中的一個\n239581\t254651\t會遇到淚灘 我覺得我今天提的概念是這樣就你現行生活權你講五年好像兩百多億嘛對不對每年數十億的這樣一個經費你都是補助各縣政府在縣市內的嘛城市內的道路嘛對不對那這個東西一定會降下來嘛因為我如果財化法我要允許一部分出去撥給地方政府對不對\n255111\t279966\t那你也不會全部歸零嘛我想應該不至於會全部歸零你中央還是會有一部分可以調度的經費本身就建議嘛就是說如果未來財務法上路之後我地方縣市政府自己城市內部的經費變多了他城市內部的道路他當然就自己要負責的比例就更高那相對來講你中央的餅雖然變小了我希望中央可以調整一下政策邏輯也就是說我中央可以調度之後我就要以資源跨域的為主嘛\n280286\t289299\t就以資源跨域跨域的建設為主嘛像這樣有些比如桃園想做新北不要那麼想中央來多幫忙是不是就降低這件事情這個成功的門檻\n290305\t316643\t那我覺得中央如果資源變小這樣子來分配來講其實是對於大家都比較好的有各縣市自己要處理的道路你各縣市要多擔負一點責任但是跨域的因為沒有辦法協調可能會卡關對不對所以中央要來多幫忙請問署長你認不認同這樣的政策方向其實中央能做大概是跨域的協調啦因為我想經費的部分最後還是要看分配出來因為其實有時候縣市政府不太想做有時候可能是地理條件的問題\n318100\t340674\t它不單純是經費的問題是地理條件的問題像這條壽山路大概我們之前也有跟新北市政府討論過那它也是覺得因為在它的這個範圍內執行上還要再拓寬的話以現有的地理條件是相對是困難度很高的所以它大概意願度是比較低所以它需要比較多的跨部會跟跨縣市的協調\n342115\t368007\t我想這才是在如果未來要做這件事的話那像我們之前協調這一個河美大橋那就是從台中到彰化那其實就是部會也有協調縣市也有協調他才能有努力的所以那都不單純是經濟的問題就地勢的部分之所以會變成很大的阻力就是因為譬如說我要上下山或你剛剛講的河美大橋我要跨越河流他的經費是高的嘛所以對於縣市這種壓力是大的我才講嘛\n368527\t384192\t所以這種跨域的不好處理的你中央要多補助一點嘛我覺得這樣子比較合理也比較公平那各城市內部的未來就是有財務法之後來處理這是本期的一個政策建議不只是這個壽山路的拓寬比如說這個湖山街從我們的這個龜山的這個兔坑\n384992\t407561\t大兔坑地區 銜接到英哥 其實也是同樣的道理就因為跨越了縣市的界限 但是沒辦法做這我想部長也好 署長也好 都了解全國各地不只是桃園 其實都有很多這樣跨域的道路我希望 因為現在生活圈道路看起來比較沒有支援到跨域的部分嘛 對不對其實都有 也是有 但是相對來講你如果全部都要照顧的話 你一定是增多周少嘛\n407901\t428847\t對不對未來就調整的時候我希望看到內政部跟國土組在政策上面稍微做一下思考怎麼樣在跨域的這樣子的建設上面加大補助的力道讓這些東西可以落地我想這是中央很好的成績啦這是本席的藉由今天的專案報告所提的第一個政策建議希望部長跟署長稍微研擬一下會後用書面來回復一下可行性可以嗎了解\n430441\t452928\t好 謝謝第二個本期要關注的也叫做道路的品質的部分因為你們這裡面那個三件事情嘛其中有一段是道路品質的部分很多人都講啊就說這個路平其實明明就是一個很基本的東西那為什麼幾十年下來大家都執政過中央地方都換過怎麼還是搞不定呢這個希望花一點時間來請教一下這我們內政部現在齁現在齁這個\n455149\t469746\t道路品質的問題很多時候都講我們其實都有編列這個重新跑舖的預算嘛然後我們在重新跑舖的時候也都會把品質做好這個我倒覺得問題比較小但是只有一個問題是你不可能全台灣的道路都重新跑舖嘛所以一定會有中間的過渡期\n470046\t484976\t那加上什麼管線啊開挖等等所以真正會造成各地的路不平的問題其實都是有管線工程然後他中間在等待重新跑舖過程中叫做假修復嘛也就是說施工單位先行進行修復的這樣一個狀況好問題來了假修復就會出事啊比如說這條文化一路這個變成越野賽道\n491980\t517043\t一邊聾起來一邊凹下去那其實非常危險那當然就是台電的修復品質不好嘛對不對我想請問的是如果假修復的品質不好現在除了各縣市政府當然我們桃園養工處去開一個罰單除了這種不痛不癢的裁罰之外中央有沒有一套比如說針對假修復的品質有一套完整的規範然後針對沒有辦法做到的有沒有一些懲罰的機制是不是可以請內政部或國土署來做一下說明\n518721\t540103\t好 說明一下因為這一個所謂的一個道路管挖修補或者是說在相關的這個建案他必須要接管他必須要做這個相關的挖路在鋪其實在各縣市的 這屬於養護的部分各縣市其實都有訂定相關的跑鋪的一個處理的機制那我們在\n540743\t552767\t但是因為他是屬於他不屬於這個條例他不屬於法令所以大概都是用注意事項或者是說在這個復原的部分我准不准許你在我這個做驗收\n554898\t581178\t最常出現大概第一個就是說我的回填品質不佳對這是第一個大問題回填品質不佳那往往就是回填的集配料裡面品質不好那或者是說我回填的時候我這個水泥的灌漿的部分也沒有做好那這是第二個那但是關鍵是在於說它在整個道路養護的部分本來就是地方權責第二個我們也是希望地方政府能夠把它提升到類似自治條例的\n581798\t607095\t的標準那這樣他才有懲罰的依據否則我們目前知道大多數他是沒有所謂的處罰那因為你有相關的處罰或沒收相關的這個保證金或相關的這個那對於這個包商他才會有他才會有這樣的一個約束力這是我們後續能夠要求地方政府來進行的這個部分把他位階提升或許會比較好\n607375\t634569\t好 我覺得署長今天這個回答非常的具體啊可以當一回事來處理啦就是說因為這個道路假修復品質不佳的狀況其實到處都是啊到處都是道路補丁啊 鋪得不好啊然後造成一大堆的爭議等等那現有的力道是不足夠的我剛剛其實有看到這個包含當初解凍的理由都在講嘛就是說有關於一些道路的品質啊路夠不夠平啊 修復的品質好不好等等 其實都是它其實也可以被列為補助的參考我覺得這種東西啊不過我跟委員報告一下因為我們當時\n636030\t664844\t尤其提升道路品質我們要看的是那一種長期年久失修的年久失修那一個才是因為我們是有整段道路的PCI的這個指數在做一個你既有的標準這我理解因為我看你的書面回覆其實寫得很清楚也就是說其實品質越不好其實表示跟地方政府財務等等他更需要中央的支持這一點我完全同意但我希望未來你把假修復的品質我只是針對假修復這件事情也就是說我有開挖我有請其他人等等然後假修復修得很爛的\n665504\t687322\t你要有一些處罰的機制它可以是你中央召集各個縣市政府來作為譬如說位階的提升啊或者是標準的修正或者是你可以善用你補助的這個額度把它納入一定的KPI或者是核定的辦法我覺得這是可以思考的方向這種東西不分縣市的因為這種東西一定要做好跟大家的生活品質有關啦好不好 是不是針對這一部分我們一樣來研究一下 我說明一下好了就是說\n689404\t705227\t大概以中央來講大概第一個就是說我們是可以針對相關的國營事業就管線單位我們大概年度都有做一些檢討那這個部分是我們可以來做但是因為相關的這一個養護的一個標準跟這個條例的訂定\n706038\t735602\t那這個我們是來督促地方政府來訂定這並不是說中央自己單獨立法我理解 我的意思是說你可以召集縣市政府來商量然後大家標準 也有標準因為其實省紀部他當時的報告當然以我們來講啦以我們來講我們會覺得大概對一些非六都的縣市是相對不公平非六都的條件本來就差那所以即使我做了一些補助他也不可能快速的提升當然不能以這樣的理由 又說他的交通條件不好\n736141\t765129\t那表示執行不佳其實這有點雞生蛋蛋生雞的問題這個其實我覺得所以我才講重點只有假修復嘛因為假修復大家都有所以我才會更為報導說這就是為什麼您當時在提這一件事情說要來提這個專案報告我們也會覺得怪怪的但是其實我想都是尊重在否則以我們來講我們會覺得原來的這個內容就寫得很奇怪原來的內容就是寫得很奇怪的東西這個提案的內容都會可受公平這個是大家都已經知道的事情這一段時間了好 等一下但是\n765950\t778549\t該走的程序都走而且其實喔藉由這樣的東西來做政策研討我覺得對大家來講也不是一件壞事部長要補充說明嗎您剛提到有關道路品質修復不佳的部分那個其實有一些縣市地方政府他們會透過議會來制定這個單行條例\n782134\t801216\t這種單行法規它的約束力才會比較強沒錯譬如說以我們以前高雄市在處理的時候就是你新的道路有的時候已經鋪好了不到一個月就開始要有人要裝電線、水管或者旁邊有新蓋的大樓那其實你只要道路的品質有一條開始破壞掉其他就完全破壞掉\n801856\t820665\t那所以透過養護的這個單位呢它在地方縣市政府的執行率比較強其實我們會鼓勵每個縣市地方政府尤其是非六都的部分它如果能夠有這樣的單行法規來強制可以開挖的單位呢它一定在一定的法定時間或一定的品質的狀況之下才能夠確保否則中央如果幫忙他們的話只會像剛剛署長所說的因為你本來就不好了\n826988\t850755\t然後就要開挖越多然後修復越多那就變成是一個惡性循環那道路的品質就不好就會被審計部然後有告訴我們說哪個地方有很多不同的缺點所以其實這是中央跟地方政委要一起努力的好 謝謝部長的補充說明其實我的概念也是這樣就是說你有什麼樣的方式可以召集可以鼓勵嘛比如說我願意做單行法規然後加強管束的我就覺得補助的時候優先性高一點我覺得這就是中央可以處理的事\n851095\t878201\t當然我會給你空間因為我們想把問題點出來我一定要給你行政機關一點時間去溝通去嘗試然後我們再來檢視成效啦好但這個假修復的問題如果可以在這個我們這次政府的任內有一個很好的升級對於地方政府中央怎麼都會加分啊所以今天本期提兩個第一個是未來的道路圈的補助希望多增加跨越的部分第二個針對道路假修復的品質要求希望我們的政府大家中央跟地方都要再更積極一點希望我們國務署也好內政部也好把這次當一回事來辦好嗎好 謝謝\n882924\t883645\t謝謝劉學廷的質詢 謝謝劉部長 謝謝吳署長\n","txt":"謝謝主席啊這內政部跟國土署有請我們請內政部長還有國土署的首長趙偉豪\n部長 早安今天的質詢當然跟解凍有一定的關係但其實每一個題目凍結都是監督的延伸所以我們希望透過這樣東西來做一下政策對話今天本期的質詢有兩個重點第一個我們探討一下你未來生活圈的道路補助的一些用法跟未來因應也許財化法等等上路之後要不要做一些檢討我們可以先進行一些政策討論第二部分我們要針對道路品質的部分跟內政部來請教一下相關的一些規範\n第一個我們有看這大部分的生活圈的道路系統建設計畫就本席的了解這個計畫大概基本上都是補助各個縣市政府各個地方政府針對這個轄內的市區道路做打通也好或者是新闢或者是整修等等的一些相關計畫當然就是希望改善各個城市內部的交通路網的完整性\n那這樣的方向其實本席都認同我剛剛聽了我們國土署吳興修署長的這些說明其實也蠻清楚這個東西當然申請都非常非常的踴躍從中央政府的角度來看只有很困擾因為這個餅不夠大大家都希望可以來爭取補助所以執行率也非常好這一點本席都非常肯定不過本席要藉這樣一個機會來進行一些討論這個未來這個財化法要上路對不對\n那換言之一定會排擠到中央的預算也一定涉及到市權的調整這本席充分的理解那我希望跟內政部來做一下討論啦就是說我們國土組現在有很多的道路補助計畫其實直接下給地方政府但是你如果財化法之後各個地方政府的經費是增加的\n對不對那增加的時候那當然中央沒有辦法像過去一樣有這麼好的預算規模可以全部來做補助所以我今天要討論的是市權的調整的部分我現在要請教我們的部長請教我們署長的地方是說我們現在有除了這個生活圈的道路交通建設計畫是針對各個縣市內部的道路以外針對跨域的道路啊\n這個中央政府有沒有特別的想法我舉一個例子比如說我龜山一個非常大家期待的一個建設這是我們龜山的大平頂地區就有一個壽山路就從我們龜山的平頂地區要銜接新北的新莊地區這其實是一個上班族通勤每天都會塞車的那以前因為龜山的地勢嘛因為有山路的關係所以很狹窄上下班的時候難免塞車嘛\n那加上這邊的A7重化區 很多的鄉親搬進來那當然都希望交通可以再改善那這件事情 桃園市政府跟新北市政府其實有做過一些協商好 可是問題來了從桃園的角度 很多人要來長庚醫院 來環亞科上班我這邊的住戶也變多了可是從新北的角度 它不見得有助於對新北的這個交通需求來講 它就沒有很大就變成說常常這種跨縣市的道路建設常常有這種 有一個很想做 有一個不太想做\n那這個東西如果兩邊沒有達成共識它其實工程就進行延宕的一個狀態像現在桃園市政府其實有一個概念嘛我就進行拓寬然後進行環形高架這當然就有大建設但請問這樣子的一個建設喔除了兩地縣市政府要自己達成共識之外中央有沒有角色\n可以報告一下因為過去的確在指引跨縣市的時候那如果同屬生活圈的部分大概都會一定會有這個協調跨部會因為尤其像這種跨縣市的很可能都會涉及到內政部跟交通部之間也要做跨部會的協調才有辦法那這是第一個第二個就是說這也涉及到經費分配的原則所以\n加上未來加上財化法這樣的一個方式那很可能在以後的這個第一個是市權第二個是財化法以後整個監會分配那更需要跨縣市跟跨部會來做一個整理像這個案子應該也是其中的一個\n會遇到淚灘 我覺得我今天提的概念是這樣就你現行生活權你講五年好像兩百多億嘛對不對每年數十億的這樣一個經費你都是補助各縣政府在縣市內的嘛城市內的道路嘛對不對那這個東西一定會降下來嘛因為我如果財化法我要允許一部分出去撥給地方政府對不對\n那你也不會全部歸零嘛我想應該不至於會全部歸零你中央還是會有一部分可以調度的經費本身就建議嘛就是說如果未來財務法上路之後我地方縣市政府自己城市內部的經費變多了他城市內部的道路他當然就自己要負責的比例就更高那相對來講你中央的餅雖然變小了我希望中央可以調整一下政策邏輯也就是說我中央可以調度之後我就要以資源跨域的為主嘛\n就以資源跨域跨域的建設為主嘛像這樣有些比如桃園想做新北不要那麼想中央來多幫忙是不是就降低這件事情這個成功的門檻\n那我覺得中央如果資源變小這樣子來分配來講其實是對於大家都比較好的有各縣市自己要處理的道路你各縣市要多擔負一點責任但是跨域的因為沒有辦法協調可能會卡關對不對所以中央要來多幫忙請問署長你認不認同這樣的政策方向其實中央能做大概是跨域的協調啦因為我想經費的部分最後還是要看分配出來因為其實有時候縣市政府不太想做有時候可能是地理條件的問題\n它不單純是經費的問題是地理條件的問題像這條壽山路大概我們之前也有跟新北市政府討論過那它也是覺得因為在它的這個範圍內執行上還要再拓寬的話以現有的地理條件是相對是困難度很高的所以它大概意願度是比較低所以它需要比較多的跨部會跟跨縣市的協調\n我想這才是在如果未來要做這件事的話那像我們之前協調這一個河美大橋那就是從台中到彰化那其實就是部會也有協調縣市也有協調他才能有努力的所以那都不單純是經濟的問題就地勢的部分之所以會變成很大的阻力就是因為譬如說我要上下山或你剛剛講的河美大橋我要跨越河流他的經費是高的嘛所以對於縣市這種壓力是大的我才講嘛\n所以這種跨域的不好處理的你中央要多補助一點嘛我覺得這樣子比較合理也比較公平那各城市內部的未來就是有財務法之後來處理這是本期的一個政策建議不只是這個壽山路的拓寬比如說這個湖山街從我們的這個龜山的這個兔坑\n大兔坑地區 銜接到英哥 其實也是同樣的道理就因為跨越了縣市的界限 但是沒辦法做這我想部長也好 署長也好 都了解全國各地不只是桃園 其實都有很多這樣跨域的道路我希望 因為現在生活圈道路看起來比較沒有支援到跨域的部分嘛 對不對其實都有 也是有 但是相對來講你如果全部都要照顧的話 你一定是增多周少嘛\n對不對未來就調整的時候我希望看到內政部跟國土組在政策上面稍微做一下思考怎麼樣在跨域的這樣子的建設上面加大補助的力道讓這些東西可以落地我想這是中央很好的成績啦這是本席的藉由今天的專案報告所提的第一個政策建議希望部長跟署長稍微研擬一下會後用書面來回復一下可行性可以嗎了解\n好 謝謝第二個本期要關注的也叫做道路的品質的部分因為你們這裡面那個三件事情嘛其中有一段是道路品質的部分很多人都講啊就說這個路平其實明明就是一個很基本的東西那為什麼幾十年下來大家都執政過中央地方都換過怎麼還是搞不定呢這個希望花一點時間來請教一下這我們內政部現在齁現在齁這個\n道路品質的問題很多時候都講我們其實都有編列這個重新跑舖的預算嘛然後我們在重新跑舖的時候也都會把品質做好這個我倒覺得問題比較小但是只有一個問題是你不可能全台灣的道路都重新跑舖嘛所以一定會有中間的過渡期\n那加上什麼管線啊開挖等等所以真正會造成各地的路不平的問題其實都是有管線工程然後他中間在等待重新跑舖過程中叫做假修復嘛也就是說施工單位先行進行修復的這樣一個狀況好問題來了假修復就會出事啊比如說這條文化一路這個變成越野賽道\n一邊聾起來一邊凹下去那其實非常危險那當然就是台電的修復品質不好嘛對不對我想請問的是如果假修復的品質不好現在除了各縣市政府當然我們桃園養工處去開一個罰單除了這種不痛不癢的裁罰之外中央有沒有一套比如說針對假修復的品質有一套完整的規範然後針對沒有辦法做到的有沒有一些懲罰的機制是不是可以請內政部或國土署來做一下說明\n好 說明一下因為這一個所謂的一個道路管挖修補或者是說在相關的這個建案他必須要接管他必須要做這個相關的挖路在鋪其實在各縣市的 這屬於養護的部分各縣市其實都有訂定相關的跑鋪的一個處理的機制那我們在\n但是因為他是屬於他不屬於這個條例他不屬於法令所以大概都是用注意事項或者是說在這個復原的部分我准不准許你在我這個做驗收\n最常出現大概第一個就是說我的回填品質不佳對這是第一個大問題回填品質不佳那往往就是回填的集配料裡面品質不好那或者是說我回填的時候我這個水泥的灌漿的部分也沒有做好那這是第二個那但是關鍵是在於說它在整個道路養護的部分本來就是地方權責第二個我們也是希望地方政府能夠把它提升到類似自治條例的\n的標準那這樣他才有懲罰的依據否則我們目前知道大多數他是沒有所謂的處罰那因為你有相關的處罰或沒收相關的這個保證金或相關的這個那對於這個包商他才會有他才會有這樣的一個約束力這是我們後續能夠要求地方政府來進行的這個部分把他位階提升或許會比較好\n好 我覺得署長今天這個回答非常的具體啊可以當一回事來處理啦就是說因為這個道路假修復品質不佳的狀況其實到處都是啊到處都是道路補丁啊 鋪得不好啊然後造成一大堆的爭議等等那現有的力道是不足夠的我剛剛其實有看到這個包含當初解凍的理由都在講嘛就是說有關於一些道路的品質啊路夠不夠平啊 修復的品質好不好等等 其實都是它其實也可以被列為補助的參考我覺得這種東西啊不過我跟委員報告一下因為我們當時\n尤其提升道路品質我們要看的是那一種長期年久失修的年久失修那一個才是因為我們是有整段道路的PCI的這個指數在做一個你既有的標準這我理解因為我看你的書面回覆其實寫得很清楚也就是說其實品質越不好其實表示跟地方政府財務等等他更需要中央的支持這一點我完全同意但我希望未來你把假修復的品質我只是針對假修復這件事情也就是說我有開挖我有請其他人等等然後假修復修得很爛的\n你要有一些處罰的機制它可以是你中央召集各個縣市政府來作為譬如說位階的提升啊或者是標準的修正或者是你可以善用你補助的這個額度把它納入一定的KPI或者是核定的辦法我覺得這是可以思考的方向這種東西不分縣市的因為這種東西一定要做好跟大家的生活品質有關啦好不好 是不是針對這一部分我們一樣來研究一下 我說明一下好了就是說\n大概以中央來講大概第一個就是說我們是可以針對相關的國營事業就管線單位我們大概年度都有做一些檢討那這個部分是我們可以來做但是因為相關的這一個養護的一個標準跟這個條例的訂定\n那這個我們是來督促地方政府來訂定這並不是說中央自己單獨立法我理解 我的意思是說你可以召集縣市政府來商量然後大家標準 也有標準因為其實省紀部他當時的報告當然以我們來講啦以我們來講我們會覺得大概對一些非六都的縣市是相對不公平非六都的條件本來就差那所以即使我做了一些補助他也不可能快速的提升當然不能以這樣的理由 又說他的交通條件不好\n那表示執行不佳其實這有點雞生蛋蛋生雞的問題這個其實我覺得所以我才講重點只有假修復嘛因為假修復大家都有所以我才會更為報導說這就是為什麼您當時在提這一件事情說要來提這個專案報告我們也會覺得怪怪的但是其實我想都是尊重在否則以我們來講我們會覺得原來的這個內容就寫得很奇怪原來的內容就是寫得很奇怪的東西這個提案的內容都會可受公平這個是大家都已經知道的事情這一段時間了好 等一下但是\n該走的程序都走而且其實喔藉由這樣的東西來做政策研討我覺得對大家來講也不是一件壞事部長要補充說明嗎您剛提到有關道路品質修復不佳的部分那個其實有一些縣市地方政府他們會透過議會來制定這個單行條例\n這種單行法規它的約束力才會比較強沒錯譬如說以我們以前高雄市在處理的時候就是你新的道路有的時候已經鋪好了不到一個月就開始要有人要裝電線、水管或者旁邊有新蓋的大樓那其實你只要道路的品質有一條開始破壞掉其他就完全破壞掉\n那所以透過養護的這個單位呢它在地方縣市政府的執行率比較強其實我們會鼓勵每個縣市地方政府尤其是非六都的部分它如果能夠有這樣的單行法規來強制可以開挖的單位呢它一定在一定的法定時間或一定的品質的狀況之下才能夠確保否則中央如果幫忙他們的話只會像剛剛署長所說的因為你本來就不好了\n然後就要開挖越多然後修復越多那就變成是一個惡性循環那道路的品質就不好就會被審計部然後有告訴我們說哪個地方有很多不同的缺點所以其實這是中央跟地方政委要一起努力的好 謝謝部長的補充說明其實我的概念也是這樣就是說你有什麼樣的方式可以召集可以鼓勵嘛比如說我願意做單行法規然後加強管束的我就覺得補助的時候優先性高一點我覺得這就是中央可以處理的事\n當然我會給你空間因為我們想把問題點出來我一定要給你行政機關一點時間去溝通去嘗試然後我們再來檢視成效啦好但這個假修復的問題如果可以在這個我們這次政府的任內有一個很好的升級對於地方政府中央怎麼都會加分啊所以今天本期提兩個第一個是未來的道路圈的補助希望多增加跨越的部分第二個針對道路假修復的品質要求希望我們的政府大家中央跟地方都要再更積極一點希望我們國務署也好內政部也好把這次當一回事來辦好嗎好 謝謝\n謝謝劉學廷的質詢 謝謝劉部長 謝謝吳署長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.130 --> 00:10.722\n謝謝主席啊這內政部跟國土署有請我們請內政部長還有國土署的首長趙偉豪\n\n00:15.994 --> 00:45.074\n部長早安今天的質詢當然跟解凍有一定的關係但其實每一個題目凍結都是監督的延伸所以我們希望透過這樣東西來做一下政策對話今天本期的質詢有兩個重點第一個我們探討一下你未來生活圈的道路補助的一些用法跟未來因應也許財化法等等上路之後要不要做一些檢討我們可以先進行一些政策討論第二部分我們要針對道路品質的部分跟內政部來請教一下相關的一些規範\n\n00:48.095 --> 01:10.885\n第一個我們有看這大部分的生活圈的道路系統建設計畫就本席的了解這個計畫大概基本上都是補助各個縣市政府各個地方政府針對這個轄內的市區道路做打通也好或者是新闢或者是整修等等的一些相關計畫當然就是希望改善各個城市內部的交通路網的完整性\n\n01:11.905 --> 01:29.850\n那這樣的方向其實本席都認同我剛剛聽了我們國土署吳興修署長的這些說明其實也蠻清楚這個東西當然申請都非常非常的踴躍從中央政府的角度來看只有很困擾因為這個餅不夠大大家都希望可以來爭取補助所以執行率也非常好這一點本席都非常肯定不過本席要藉這樣一個機會來進行一些討論這個未來這個財化法要上路對不對\n\n01:33.971 --> 01:49.732\n那換言之一定會排擠到中央的預算也一定涉及到市權的調整這本席充分的理解那我希望跟內政部來做一下討論啦就是說我們國土組現在有很多的道路補助計畫其實直接下給地方政府但是你如果財化法之後各個地方政府的經費是增加的\n\n01:50.253 --> 02:10.405\n對不對那增加的時候那當然中央沒有辦法像過去一樣有這麼好的預算規模可以全部來做補助所以我今天要討論的是市權的調整的部分我現在要請教我們的部長請教我們署長的地方是說我們現在有除了這個生活圈的道路交通建設計畫是針對各個縣市內部的道路以外針對跨域的道路啊\n\n02:11.386 --> 02:32.228\n這個中央政府有沒有特別的想法我舉一個例子比如說我龜山一個非常大家期待的一個建設這是我們龜山的大平頂地區就有一個壽山路就從我們龜山的平頂地區要銜接新北的新莊地區這其實是一個上班族通勤每天都會塞車的那以前因為龜山的地勢嘛因為有山路的關係所以很狹窄上下班的時候難免塞車嘛\n\n02:32.868 --> 02:59.785\n那加上這邊的A7重化區很多的鄉親搬進來那當然都希望交通可以再改善那這件事情桃園市政府跟新北市政府其實有做過一些協商好可是問題來了從桃園的角度很多人要來長庚醫院來環亞科上班我這邊的住戶也變多了可是從新北的角度它不見得有助於對新北的這個交通需求來講它就沒有很大就變成說常常這種跨縣市的道路建設常常有這種有一個很想做有一個不太想做\n\n03:00.245 --> 03:14.574\n那這個東西如果兩邊沒有達成共識它其實工程就進行延宕的一個狀態像現在桃園市政府其實有一個概念嘛我就進行拓寬然後進行環形高架這當然就有大建設但請問這樣子的一個建設喔除了兩地縣市政府要自己達成共識之外中央有沒有角色\n\n03:16.718 --> 03:41.233\n可以報告一下因為過去的確在指引跨縣市的時候那如果同屬生活圈的部分大概都會一定會有這個協調跨部會因為尤其像這種跨縣市的很可能都會涉及到內政部跟交通部之間也要做跨部會的協調才有辦法那這是第一個第二個就是說這也涉及到經費分配的原則所以\n\n03:42.013 --> 03:58.881\n加上未來加上財化法這樣的一個方式那很可能在以後的這個第一個是市權第二個是財化法以後整個監會分配那更需要跨縣市跟跨部會來做一個整理像這個案子應該也是其中的一個\n\n03:59.581 --> 04:14.651\n會遇到淚灘我覺得我今天提的概念是這樣就你現行生活權你講五年好像兩百多億嘛對不對每年數十億的這樣一個經費你都是補助各縣政府在縣市內的嘛城市內的道路嘛對不對那這個東西一定會降下來嘛因為我如果財化法我要允許一部分出去撥給地方政府對不對\n\n04:15.111 --> 04:39.966\n那你也不會全部歸零嘛我想應該不至於會全部歸零你中央還是會有一部分可以調度的經費本身就建議嘛就是說如果未來財務法上路之後我地方縣市政府自己城市內部的經費變多了他城市內部的道路他當然就自己要負責的比例就更高那相對來講你中央的餅雖然變小了我希望中央可以調整一下政策邏輯也就是說我中央可以調度之後我就要以資源跨域的為主嘛\n\n04:40.286 --> 04:49.299\n就以資源跨域跨域的建設為主嘛像這樣有些比如桃園想做新北不要那麼想中央來多幫忙是不是就降低這件事情這個成功的門檻\n\n04:50.305 --> 05:16.643\n那我覺得中央如果資源變小這樣子來分配來講其實是對於大家都比較好的有各縣市自己要處理的道路你各縣市要多擔負一點責任但是跨域的因為沒有辦法協調可能會卡關對不對所以中央要來多幫忙請問署長你認不認同這樣的政策方向其實中央能做大概是跨域的協調啦因為我想經費的部分最後還是要看分配出來因為其實有時候縣市政府不太想做有時候可能是地理條件的問題\n\n05:18.100 --> 05:40.674\n它不單純是經費的問題是地理條件的問題像這條壽山路大概我們之前也有跟新北市政府討論過那它也是覺得因為在它的這個範圍內執行上還要再拓寬的話以現有的地理條件是相對是困難度很高的所以它大概意願度是比較低所以它需要比較多的跨部會跟跨縣市的協調\n\n05:42.115 --> 06:08.007\n我想這才是在如果未來要做這件事的話那像我們之前協調這一個河美大橋那就是從台中到彰化那其實就是部會也有協調縣市也有協調他才能有努力的所以那都不單純是經濟的問題就地勢的部分之所以會變成很大的阻力就是因為譬如說我要上下山或你剛剛講的河美大橋我要跨越河流他的經費是高的嘛所以對於縣市這種壓力是大的我才講嘛\n\n06:08.527 --> 06:24.192\n所以這種跨域的不好處理的你中央要多補助一點嘛我覺得這樣子比較合理也比較公平那各城市內部的未來就是有財務法之後來處理這是本期的一個政策建議不只是這個壽山路的拓寬比如說這個湖山街從我們的這個龜山的這個兔坑\n\n06:24.992 --> 06:47.561\n大兔坑地區銜接到英哥其實也是同樣的道理就因為跨越了縣市的界限但是沒辦法做這我想部長也好署長也好都了解全國各地不只是桃園其實都有很多這樣跨域的道路我希望因為現在生活圈道路看起來比較沒有支援到跨域的部分嘛對不對其實都有也是有但是相對來講你如果全部都要照顧的話你一定是增多周少嘛\n\n06:47.901 --> 07:08.847\n對不對未來就調整的時候我希望看到內政部跟國土組在政策上面稍微做一下思考怎麼樣在跨域的這樣子的建設上面加大補助的力道讓這些東西可以落地我想這是中央很好的成績啦這是本席的藉由今天的專案報告所提的第一個政策建議希望部長跟署長稍微研擬一下會後用書面來回復一下可行性可以嗎了解\n\n07:10.441 --> 07:32.928\n好謝謝第二個本期要關注的也叫做道路的品質的部分因為你們這裡面那個三件事情嘛其中有一段是道路品質的部分很多人都講啊就說這個路平其實明明就是一個很基本的東西那為什麼幾十年下來大家都執政過中央地方都換過怎麼還是搞不定呢這個希望花一點時間來請教一下這我們內政部現在齁現在齁這個\n\n07:35.149 --> 07:49.746\n道路品質的問題很多時候都講我們其實都有編列這個重新跑舖的預算嘛然後我們在重新跑舖的時候也都會把品質做好這個我倒覺得問題比較小但是只有一個問題是你不可能全台灣的道路都重新跑舖嘛所以一定會有中間的過渡期\n\n07:50.046 --> 08:04.976\n那加上什麼管線啊開挖等等所以真正會造成各地的路不平的問題其實都是有管線工程然後他中間在等待重新跑舖過程中叫做假修復嘛也就是說施工單位先行進行修復的這樣一個狀況好問題來了假修復就會出事啊比如說這條文化一路這個變成越野賽道\n\n08:11.980 --> 08:37.043\n一邊聾起來一邊凹下去那其實非常危險那當然就是台電的修復品質不好嘛對不對我想請問的是如果假修復的品質不好現在除了各縣市政府當然我們桃園養工處去開一個罰單除了這種不痛不癢的裁罰之外中央有沒有一套比如說針對假修復的品質有一套完整的規範然後針對沒有辦法做到的有沒有一些懲罰的機制是不是可以請內政部或國土署來做一下說明\n\n08:38.721 --> 09:00.103\n好說明一下因為這一個所謂的一個道路管挖修補或者是說在相關的這個建案他必須要接管他必須要做這個相關的挖路在鋪其實在各縣市的這屬於養護的部分各縣市其實都有訂定相關的跑鋪的一個處理的機制那我們在\n\n09:00.743 --> 09:12.767\n但是因為他是屬於他不屬於這個條例他不屬於法令所以大概都是用注意事項或者是說在這個復原的部分我准不准許你在我這個做驗收\n\n09:14.898 --> 09:41.178\n最常出現大概第一個就是說我的回填品質不佳對這是第一個大問題回填品質不佳那往往就是回填的集配料裡面品質不好那或者是說我回填的時候我這個水泥的灌漿的部分也沒有做好那這是第二個那但是關鍵是在於說它在整個道路養護的部分本來就是地方權責第二個我們也是希望地方政府能夠把它提升到類似自治條例的\n\n09:41.798 --> 10:07.095\n的標準那這樣他才有懲罰的依據否則我們目前知道大多數他是沒有所謂的處罰那因為你有相關的處罰或沒收相關的這個保證金或相關的這個那對於這個包商他才會有他才會有這樣的一個約束力這是我們後續能夠要求地方政府來進行的這個部分把他位階提升或許會比較好\n\n10:07.375 --> 10:34.569\n好我覺得署長今天這個回答非常的具體啊可以當一回事來處理啦就是說因為這個道路假修復品質不佳的狀況其實到處都是啊到處都是道路補丁啊鋪得不好啊然後造成一大堆的爭議等等那現有的力道是不足夠的我剛剛其實有看到這個包含當初解凍的理由都在講嘛就是說有關於一些道路的品質啊路夠不夠平啊修復的品質好不好等等其實都是它其實也可以被列為補助的參考我覺得這種東西啊不過我跟委員報告一下因為我們當時\n\n10:36.030 --> 11:04.844\n尤其提升道路品質我們要看的是那一種長期年久失修的年久失修那一個才是因為我們是有整段道路的PCI的這個指數在做一個你既有的標準這我理解因為我看你的書面回覆其實寫得很清楚也就是說其實品質越不好其實表示跟地方政府財務等等他更需要中央的支持這一點我完全同意但我希望未來你把假修復的品質我只是針對假修復這件事情也就是說我有開挖我有請其他人等等然後假修復修得很爛的\n\n11:05.504 --> 11:27.322\n你要有一些處罰的機制它可以是你中央召集各個縣市政府來作為譬如說位階的提升啊或者是標準的修正或者是你可以善用你補助的這個額度把它納入一定的KPI或者是核定的辦法我覺得這是可以思考的方向這種東西不分縣市的因為這種東西一定要做好跟大家的生活品質有關啦好不好是不是針對這一部分我們一樣來研究一下我說明一下好了就是說\n\n11:29.404 --> 11:45.227\n大概以中央來講大概第一個就是說我們是可以針對相關的國營事業就管線單位我們大概年度都有做一些檢討那這個部分是我們可以來做但是因為相關的這一個養護的一個標準跟這個條例的訂定\n\n11:46.038 --> 12:15.602\n那這個我們是來督促地方政府來訂定這並不是說中央自己單獨立法我理解我的意思是說你可以召集縣市政府來商量然後大家標準也有標準因為其實省紀部他當時的報告當然以我們來講啦以我們來講我們會覺得大概對一些非六都的縣市是相對不公平非六都的條件本來就差那所以即使我做了一些補助他也不可能快速的提升當然不能以這樣的理由又說他的交通條件不好\n\n12:16.141 --> 12:45.129\n那表示執行不佳其實這有點雞生蛋蛋生雞的問題這個其實我覺得所以我才講重點只有假修復嘛因為假修復大家都有所以我才會更為報導說這就是為什麼您當時在提這一件事情說要來提這個專案報告我們也會覺得怪怪的但是其實我想都是尊重在否則以我們來講我們會覺得原來的這個內容就寫得很奇怪原來的內容就是寫得很奇怪的東西這個提案的內容都會可受公平這個是大家都已經知道的事情這一段時間了好等一下但是\n\n12:45.950 --> 12:58.549\n該走的程序都走而且其實喔藉由這樣的東西來做政策研討我覺得對大家來講也不是一件壞事部長要補充說明嗎您剛提到有關道路品質修復不佳的部分那個其實有一些縣市地方政府他們會透過議會來制定這個單行條例\n\n13:02.134 --> 13:21.216\n這種單行法規它的約束力才會比較強沒錯譬如說以我們以前高雄市在處理的時候就是你新的道路有的時候已經鋪好了不到一個月就開始要有人要裝電線、水管或者旁邊有新蓋的大樓那其實你只要道路的品質有一條開始破壞掉其他就完全破壞掉\n\n13:21.856 --> 13:40.665\n那所以透過養護的這個單位呢它在地方縣市政府的執行率比較強其實我們會鼓勵每個縣市地方政府尤其是非六都的部分它如果能夠有這樣的單行法規來強制可以開挖的單位呢它一定在一定的法定時間或一定的品質的狀況之下才能夠確保否則中央如果幫忙他們的話只會像剛剛署長所說的因為你本來就不好了\n\n13:46.988 --> 14:10.755\n然後就要開挖越多然後修復越多那就變成是一個惡性循環那道路的品質就不好就會被審計部然後有告訴我們說哪個地方有很多不同的缺點所以其實這是中央跟地方政委要一起努力的好謝謝部長的補充說明其實我的概念也是這樣就是說你有什麼樣的方式可以召集可以鼓勵嘛比如說我願意做單行法規然後加強管束的我就覺得補助的時候優先性高一點我覺得這就是中央可以處理的事\n\n14:11.095 --> 14:38.201\n當然我會給你空間因為我們想把問題點出來我一定要給你行政機關一點時間去溝通去嘗試然後我們再來檢視成效啦好但這個假修復的問題如果可以在這個我們這次政府的任內有一個很好的升級對於地方政府中央怎麼都會加分啊所以今天本期提兩個第一個是未來的道路圈的補助希望多增加跨越的部分第二個針對道路假修復的品質要求希望我們的政府大家中央跟地方都要再更積極一點希望我們國務署也好內政部也好把這次當一回事來辦好嗎好謝謝\n\n14:42.924 --> 14:43.645\n謝謝劉學廷的質詢謝謝劉部長謝謝吳署長\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.13,"end":10.722,"text":"謝謝主席啊這內政部跟國土署有請我們請內政部長還有國土署的首長趙偉豪"},{"start":15.994,"end":45.074,"text":"部長 早安今天的質詢當然跟解凍有一定的關係但其實每一個題目凍結都是監督的延伸所以我們希望透過這樣東西來做一下政策對話今天本期的質詢有兩個重點第一個我們探討一下你未來生活圈的道路補助的一些用法跟未來因應也許財化法等等上路之後要不要做一些檢討我們可以先進行一些政策討論第二部分我們要針對道路品質的部分跟內政部來請教一下相關的一些規範"},{"start":48.095,"end":70.885,"text":"第一個我們有看這大部分的生活圈的道路系統建設計畫就本席的了解這個計畫大概基本上都是補助各個縣市政府各個地方政府針對這個轄內的市區道路做打通也好或者是新闢或者是整修等等的一些相關計畫當然就是希望改善各個城市內部的交通路網的完整性"},{"start":71.905,"end":89.85,"text":"那這樣的方向其實本席都認同我剛剛聽了我們國土署吳興修署長的這些說明其實也蠻清楚這個東西當然申請都非常非常的踴躍從中央政府的角度來看只有很困擾因為這個餅不夠大大家都希望可以來爭取補助所以執行率也非常好這一點本席都非常肯定不過本席要藉這樣一個機會來進行一些討論這個未來這個財化法要上路對不對"},{"start":93.971,"end":109.732,"text":"那換言之一定會排擠到中央的預算也一定涉及到市權的調整這本席充分的理解那我希望跟內政部來做一下討論啦就是說我們國土組現在有很多的道路補助計畫其實直接下給地方政府但是你如果財化法之後各個地方政府的經費是增加的"},{"start":110.253,"end":130.405,"text":"對不對那增加的時候那當然中央沒有辦法像過去一樣有這麼好的預算規模可以全部來做補助所以我今天要討論的是市權的調整的部分我現在要請教我們的部長請教我們署長的地方是說我們現在有除了這個生活圈的道路交通建設計畫是針對各個縣市內部的道路以外針對跨域的道路啊"},{"start":131.386,"end":152.228,"text":"這個中央政府有沒有特別的想法我舉一個例子比如說我龜山一個非常大家期待的一個建設這是我們龜山的大平頂地區就有一個壽山路就從我們龜山的平頂地區要銜接新北的新莊地區這其實是一個上班族通勤每天都會塞車的那以前因為龜山的地勢嘛因為有山路的關係所以很狹窄上下班的時候難免塞車嘛"},{"start":152.868,"end":179.785,"text":"那加上這邊的A7重化區 很多的鄉親搬進來那當然都希望交通可以再改善那這件事情 桃園市政府跟新北市政府其實有做過一些協商好 可是問題來了從桃園的角度 很多人要來長庚醫院 來環亞科上班我這邊的住戶也變多了可是從新北的角度 它不見得有助於對新北的這個交通需求來講 它就沒有很大就變成說常常這種跨縣市的道路建設常常有這種 有一個很想做 有一個不太想做"},{"start":180.245,"end":194.574,"text":"那這個東西如果兩邊沒有達成共識它其實工程就進行延宕的一個狀態像現在桃園市政府其實有一個概念嘛我就進行拓寬然後進行環形高架這當然就有大建設但請問這樣子的一個建設喔除了兩地縣市政府要自己達成共識之外中央有沒有角色"},{"start":196.718,"end":221.233,"text":"可以報告一下因為過去的確在指引跨縣市的時候那如果同屬生活圈的部分大概都會一定會有這個協調跨部會因為尤其像這種跨縣市的很可能都會涉及到內政部跟交通部之間也要做跨部會的協調才有辦法那這是第一個第二個就是說這也涉及到經費分配的原則所以"},{"start":222.013,"end":238.881,"text":"加上未來加上財化法這樣的一個方式那很可能在以後的這個第一個是市權第二個是財化法以後整個監會分配那更需要跨縣市跟跨部會來做一個整理像這個案子應該也是其中的一個"},{"start":239.581,"end":254.651,"text":"會遇到淚灘 我覺得我今天提的概念是這樣就你現行生活權你講五年好像兩百多億嘛對不對每年數十億的這樣一個經費你都是補助各縣政府在縣市內的嘛城市內的道路嘛對不對那這個東西一定會降下來嘛因為我如果財化法我要允許一部分出去撥給地方政府對不對"},{"start":255.111,"end":279.966,"text":"那你也不會全部歸零嘛我想應該不至於會全部歸零你中央還是會有一部分可以調度的經費本身就建議嘛就是說如果未來財務法上路之後我地方縣市政府自己城市內部的經費變多了他城市內部的道路他當然就自己要負責的比例就更高那相對來講你中央的餅雖然變小了我希望中央可以調整一下政策邏輯也就是說我中央可以調度之後我就要以資源跨域的為主嘛"},{"start":280.286,"end":289.299,"text":"就以資源跨域跨域的建設為主嘛像這樣有些比如桃園想做新北不要那麼想中央來多幫忙是不是就降低這件事情這個成功的門檻"},{"start":290.305,"end":316.643,"text":"那我覺得中央如果資源變小這樣子來分配來講其實是對於大家都比較好的有各縣市自己要處理的道路你各縣市要多擔負一點責任但是跨域的因為沒有辦法協調可能會卡關對不對所以中央要來多幫忙請問署長你認不認同這樣的政策方向其實中央能做大概是跨域的協調啦因為我想經費的部分最後還是要看分配出來因為其實有時候縣市政府不太想做有時候可能是地理條件的問題"},{"start":318.1,"end":340.674,"text":"它不單純是經費的問題是地理條件的問題像這條壽山路大概我們之前也有跟新北市政府討論過那它也是覺得因為在它的這個範圍內執行上還要再拓寬的話以現有的地理條件是相對是困難度很高的所以它大概意願度是比較低所以它需要比較多的跨部會跟跨縣市的協調"},{"start":342.115,"end":368.007,"text":"我想這才是在如果未來要做這件事的話那像我們之前協調這一個河美大橋那就是從台中到彰化那其實就是部會也有協調縣市也有協調他才能有努力的所以那都不單純是經濟的問題就地勢的部分之所以會變成很大的阻力就是因為譬如說我要上下山或你剛剛講的河美大橋我要跨越河流他的經費是高的嘛所以對於縣市這種壓力是大的我才講嘛"},{"start":368.527,"end":384.192,"text":"所以這種跨域的不好處理的你中央要多補助一點嘛我覺得這樣子比較合理也比較公平那各城市內部的未來就是有財務法之後來處理這是本期的一個政策建議不只是這個壽山路的拓寬比如說這個湖山街從我們的這個龜山的這個兔坑"},{"start":384.992,"end":407.561,"text":"大兔坑地區 銜接到英哥 其實也是同樣的道理就因為跨越了縣市的界限 但是沒辦法做這我想部長也好 署長也好 都了解全國各地不只是桃園 其實都有很多這樣跨域的道路我希望 因為現在生活圈道路看起來比較沒有支援到跨域的部分嘛 對不對其實都有 也是有 但是相對來講你如果全部都要照顧的話 你一定是增多周少嘛"},{"start":407.901,"end":428.847,"text":"對不對未來就調整的時候我希望看到內政部跟國土組在政策上面稍微做一下思考怎麼樣在跨域的這樣子的建設上面加大補助的力道讓這些東西可以落地我想這是中央很好的成績啦這是本席的藉由今天的專案報告所提的第一個政策建議希望部長跟署長稍微研擬一下會後用書面來回復一下可行性可以嗎了解"},{"start":430.441,"end":452.928,"text":"好 謝謝第二個本期要關注的也叫做道路的品質的部分因為你們這裡面那個三件事情嘛其中有一段是道路品質的部分很多人都講啊就說這個路平其實明明就是一個很基本的東西那為什麼幾十年下來大家都執政過中央地方都換過怎麼還是搞不定呢這個希望花一點時間來請教一下這我們內政部現在齁現在齁這個"},{"start":455.149,"end":469.746,"text":"道路品質的問題很多時候都講我們其實都有編列這個重新跑舖的預算嘛然後我們在重新跑舖的時候也都會把品質做好這個我倒覺得問題比較小但是只有一個問題是你不可能全台灣的道路都重新跑舖嘛所以一定會有中間的過渡期"},{"start":470.046,"end":484.976,"text":"那加上什麼管線啊開挖等等所以真正會造成各地的路不平的問題其實都是有管線工程然後他中間在等待重新跑舖過程中叫做假修復嘛也就是說施工單位先行進行修復的這樣一個狀況好問題來了假修復就會出事啊比如說這條文化一路這個變成越野賽道"},{"start":491.98,"end":517.043,"text":"一邊聾起來一邊凹下去那其實非常危險那當然就是台電的修復品質不好嘛對不對我想請問的是如果假修復的品質不好現在除了各縣市政府當然我們桃園養工處去開一個罰單除了這種不痛不癢的裁罰之外中央有沒有一套比如說針對假修復的品質有一套完整的規範然後針對沒有辦法做到的有沒有一些懲罰的機制是不是可以請內政部或國土署來做一下說明"},{"start":518.721,"end":540.103,"text":"好 說明一下因為這一個所謂的一個道路管挖修補或者是說在相關的這個建案他必須要接管他必須要做這個相關的挖路在鋪其實在各縣市的 這屬於養護的部分各縣市其實都有訂定相關的跑鋪的一個處理的機制那我們在"},{"start":540.743,"end":552.767,"text":"但是因為他是屬於他不屬於這個條例他不屬於法令所以大概都是用注意事項或者是說在這個復原的部分我准不准許你在我這個做驗收"},{"start":554.898,"end":581.178,"text":"最常出現大概第一個就是說我的回填品質不佳對這是第一個大問題回填品質不佳那往往就是回填的集配料裡面品質不好那或者是說我回填的時候我這個水泥的灌漿的部分也沒有做好那這是第二個那但是關鍵是在於說它在整個道路養護的部分本來就是地方權責第二個我們也是希望地方政府能夠把它提升到類似自治條例的"},{"start":581.798,"end":607.095,"text":"的標準那這樣他才有懲罰的依據否則我們目前知道大多數他是沒有所謂的處罰那因為你有相關的處罰或沒收相關的這個保證金或相關的這個那對於這個包商他才會有他才會有這樣的一個約束力這是我們後續能夠要求地方政府來進行的這個部分把他位階提升或許會比較好"},{"start":607.375,"end":634.569,"text":"好 我覺得署長今天這個回答非常的具體啊可以當一回事來處理啦就是說因為這個道路假修復品質不佳的狀況其實到處都是啊到處都是道路補丁啊 鋪得不好啊然後造成一大堆的爭議等等那現有的力道是不足夠的我剛剛其實有看到這個包含當初解凍的理由都在講嘛就是說有關於一些道路的品質啊路夠不夠平啊 修復的品質好不好等等 其實都是它其實也可以被列為補助的參考我覺得這種東西啊不過我跟委員報告一下因為我們當時"},{"start":636.03,"end":664.844,"text":"尤其提升道路品質我們要看的是那一種長期年久失修的年久失修那一個才是因為我們是有整段道路的PCI的這個指數在做一個你既有的標準這我理解因為我看你的書面回覆其實寫得很清楚也就是說其實品質越不好其實表示跟地方政府財務等等他更需要中央的支持這一點我完全同意但我希望未來你把假修復的品質我只是針對假修復這件事情也就是說我有開挖我有請其他人等等然後假修復修得很爛的"},{"start":665.504,"end":687.322,"text":"你要有一些處罰的機制它可以是你中央召集各個縣市政府來作為譬如說位階的提升啊或者是標準的修正或者是你可以善用你補助的這個額度把它納入一定的KPI或者是核定的辦法我覺得這是可以思考的方向這種東西不分縣市的因為這種東西一定要做好跟大家的生活品質有關啦好不好 是不是針對這一部分我們一樣來研究一下 我說明一下好了就是說"},{"start":689.404,"end":705.227,"text":"大概以中央來講大概第一個就是說我們是可以針對相關的國營事業就管線單位我們大概年度都有做一些檢討那這個部分是我們可以來做但是因為相關的這一個養護的一個標準跟這個條例的訂定"},{"start":706.038,"end":735.602,"text":"那這個我們是來督促地方政府來訂定這並不是說中央自己單獨立法我理解 我的意思是說你可以召集縣市政府來商量然後大家標準 也有標準因為其實省紀部他當時的報告當然以我們來講啦以我們來講我們會覺得大概對一些非六都的縣市是相對不公平非六都的條件本來就差那所以即使我做了一些補助他也不可能快速的提升當然不能以這樣的理由 又說他的交通條件不好"},{"start":736.141,"end":765.129,"text":"那表示執行不佳其實這有點雞生蛋蛋生雞的問題這個其實我覺得所以我才講重點只有假修復嘛因為假修復大家都有所以我才會更為報導說這就是為什麼您當時在提這一件事情說要來提這個專案報告我們也會覺得怪怪的但是其實我想都是尊重在否則以我們來講我們會覺得原來的這個內容就寫得很奇怪原來的內容就是寫得很奇怪的東西這個提案的內容都會可受公平這個是大家都已經知道的事情這一段時間了好 等一下但是"},{"start":765.95,"end":778.549,"text":"該走的程序都走而且其實喔藉由這樣的東西來做政策研討我覺得對大家來講也不是一件壞事部長要補充說明嗎您剛提到有關道路品質修復不佳的部分那個其實有一些縣市地方政府他們會透過議會來制定這個單行條例"},{"start":782.134,"end":801.216,"text":"這種單行法規它的約束力才會比較強沒錯譬如說以我們以前高雄市在處理的時候就是你新的道路有的時候已經鋪好了不到一個月就開始要有人要裝電線、水管或者旁邊有新蓋的大樓那其實你只要道路的品質有一條開始破壞掉其他就完全破壞掉"},{"start":801.856,"end":820.665,"text":"那所以透過養護的這個單位呢它在地方縣市政府的執行率比較強其實我們會鼓勵每個縣市地方政府尤其是非六都的部分它如果能夠有這樣的單行法規來強制可以開挖的單位呢它一定在一定的法定時間或一定的品質的狀況之下才能夠確保否則中央如果幫忙他們的話只會像剛剛署長所說的因為你本來就不好了"},{"start":826.988,"end":850.755,"text":"然後就要開挖越多然後修復越多那就變成是一個惡性循環那道路的品質就不好就會被審計部然後有告訴我們說哪個地方有很多不同的缺點所以其實這是中央跟地方政委要一起努力的好 謝謝部長的補充說明其實我的概念也是這樣就是說你有什麼樣的方式可以召集可以鼓勵嘛比如說我願意做單行法規然後加強管束的我就覺得補助的時候優先性高一點我覺得這就是中央可以處理的事"},{"start":851.095,"end":878.201,"text":"當然我會給你空間因為我們想把問題點出來我一定要給你行政機關一點時間去溝通去嘗試然後我們再來檢視成效啦好但這個假修復的問題如果可以在這個我們這次政府的任內有一個很好的升級對於地方政府中央怎麼都會加分啊所以今天本期提兩個第一個是未來的道路圈的補助希望多增加跨越的部分第二個針對道路假修復的品質要求希望我們的政府大家中央跟地方都要再更積極一點希望我們國務署也好內政部也好把這次當一回事來辦好嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":882.924,"end":883.645,"text":"謝謝劉學廷的質詢 謝謝劉部長 謝謝吳署長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":477,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時47分）謝謝主席。有請內政部跟國土署。"],["主席：請內政部長，還有國土署吳署長。"],["劉部長世芳：召委好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長早安。今天的質詢當然跟解凍有一定的關係，但其實每一個題目，凍結都是監督的延伸，所以我們希望透過這樣的報告來做一下政策對話。今天本席的質詢有兩個重點，第一個，我們探討一下未來生活圈道路補助的一些用法，以及未來因應財劃法上路之後要不要做一些檢討，我們可以先進行一些政策討論。第二，我們要針對道路品質的部分跟內政部請教一下相關的一些規範。","第一個，就本席的了解，大部分的生活圈道路系統建設計畫大概基本上都是補助各個縣市政府、各個地方政府，針對轄內的市區道路做打通、新闢或者是整修等等的一些相關計畫，當然就是希望改善各個城市內部交通路網的完整性。這樣的方向其實本席都認同，我剛剛聽了國土署吳欣修署長的這些說明，其實蠻清楚的，這些申請當然都非常踴躍，從中央政府的角度來看，只有很困擾，因為餅不夠大，大家都希望可以爭取補助，所以執行率也非常好，這一點本席都非常肯定。不過本席要藉這樣一個機會來進行一些討論，未來財劃法要上路，換言之，一定會排擠到中央的預算，也一定涉及到事權的調整，這本席充分的理解，我希望跟內政部來做一下討論，國土署現在有很多的道路補助計畫其實是直接下給地方政府，但是財劃法修正之後，各個地方政府的經費是增加的，增加之後，當然中央沒有辦法像過去一樣有這麼好的預算規模可以全部來做補助，所以我今天要討論的是事權調整的部分。","我現在要請教部長、署長的地方是，現在除了這個生活圈的道路交通建設計畫是針對各個縣市內部的道路以外，針對跨域的道路中央政府有沒有特別的想法？我舉一個例子，比如說，龜山有一個大家非常期待的建設就是我們龜山的大坪頂地區，壽山路就是從龜山的坪頂地區要銜接新北的新莊地區，這其實是一條上班族每天通勤都會塞車的道路。以前因為龜山的地勢，還有山路的關係，所以很狹窄，上下班的時候難免塞車，加上這邊的A7重劃區，很多的鄉親搬進來，當然都希望交通可以再改善。這件事情桃園市政府跟新北市政府其實有做過一些協商，可是問題來了，從桃園的角度，很多人要來長庚醫院、華亞科上班，這邊的住戶也變多了；可是從新北的角度就不見得有幫助，對新北的交通需求就沒有很大。這種跨縣市的道路建設就變成常常有這種狀況，有一個很想做、有一個不太想做，如果兩邊沒有達成共識，其實工程就呈現延宕的狀態。像現在桃園市政府其實有一個概念，就是進行拓寬，然後進行環形高架，這當然就是一個大建設，但請問這樣的一個建設，除了兩地縣市政府要自己達成共識之外，中央有沒有角色？"],["吳署長欣修：報告一下，過去在執行跨縣市的時候，如果同屬生活圈的部分大概一定都會有跨部會的協調，尤其像這種跨縣市的，很可能都會涉及到內政部跟交通部之間也要做跨部會的協調才有辦法，這是第一個。第二個，這也涉及到經費分配的原則，未來如果加上財劃法這樣的方式，很可能在以後，第一個是事權，第二個是財劃法，整個經費分配更需要跨縣市跟跨部會來做整理，像這個案子應該也是其中一個會遇到的。"],["牛委員煦庭：我今天提的概念是這樣，你說現行生活圈是五年補助兩百多億，每年數十億這樣的經費，你們都是補助各縣市政府在縣市內的、城市內的道路，如果財劃法上路，你們要勻一部分出去撥給地方政府，所以這個東西一定會降下來，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：但也不會全部歸零嘛！我想應該不至於會全部歸零，中央還是會有一部分可以調度的經費。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席現在就建議，如果未來財劃法上路之後，地方縣市政府自己城市內部的經費變多了，那麼城市內部的道路當然自己要負責的比例就更高。相對來講，中央的餅雖然變小了，我希望中央可以調整一下政策邏輯，也就是說，中央可以調度的資源就要以跨域的建設為主，像這樣比如說桃園想做，新北比較沒有那麼想的，由中央來多幫忙，是不是就可以降低這件事情達成的門檻？我覺得中央如果資源變小，以這樣子的分配來講，其實對於大家都是比較好的，也就是說，各縣市自己要處理的道路，各縣市要多擔負一點責任，但是跨域的，因為沒有辦法協調，可能會卡關，所以中央要來多幫忙，請問署長認不認同這樣的政策方向？"],["吳署長欣修：其實中央能做的大概是跨域的協調啦！我想經費的部分最後還是要看分配出來的結果，因為有時候縣市政府不太想做可能是地理條件的問題，不單純是經費的問題，而是地理條件的問題。像這一條壽山路，我們之前也有跟新北市政府討論過，他們認為在這個範圍內的執行上，如果還要再拓寬，以現有的地理條件相對困難度是很高的，所以他們的意願度大概比較低，所以需要比較多跨部會跟跨縣市的協調。如果未來要做這件事的話，我想這才是……","像我們之前協調和美大橋，就是從臺中到彰化，其實部會也有協調，縣市也有協調，所以不單純都是經費的問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：地勢的部分之所以會變成很大的阻力，就是因為可能要上下山，或是你剛剛講的和美大橋，要跨越河流，它的經費是高的，所以對於縣市政府的壓力大。所以我才講，這種跨域的、不好處理的中央要多補助一點嘛！我覺得這樣子比較合理，也比較公平，至於各城市內部的，未來就由財劃法來處理，這是本席的一個政策建議。不只是這個壽山路的拓寬，比如說湖山街，從我們龜山的大兔坑地區銜接到鶯歌，其實也是同樣的道理，因為跨越了縣市的界線，沒辦法做。我想部長、署長也都了解，也不只是桃園，全國各地其實都有很多這樣跨域的道路，因為現在生活圈道路看起來比較沒有支援到跨域的部分，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：其實都有。"],["牛委員煦庭：也是有，但是相對來講，如果全部都要照顧的話，你一定是僧多粥少嘛！未來調整之後，我希望看到內政部跟國土署在政策上面稍微做一下思考，怎麼樣在跨域的建設上面加大補助的力道，讓這些東西可以落地，我想這是中央很好的成績，這是本席藉由今天的專案報告所提的第一個政策建議，希望部長跟署長稍微研擬一下，會後用書面來回復一下可行性，可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：了解。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。第二個本席要關注的是道路品質的部分，因為你們這裡面大概提了三件事情，其中有一段是有關道路品質的部分。很多人都講，路平明明就是一個很基本的東西，為什麼幾十年下來大家都執政過，中央、地方也都換過，怎麼還是搞不定呢？我希望花一點時間來請教一下內政部，關於道路品質的問題，現在很多時候都講說我們都有編列重新刨鋪的預算，在重新刨鋪的時候也都會把品質做好，這個我倒覺得問題比較小，但只有一個問題是不可能全臺灣的道路都重新刨鋪嘛！一定會有中間的過渡期，加上管線開挖等等，所以真正會造成各地路不平的問題其實都是因為有管線工程，在等待重新刨鋪過程中的假修復，也就是施工單位先進行修復的狀況。問題來了，假修復就會出事啊！比如說這一條文化一路，變成越野賽道，一邊隆起來、一邊凹下去，其實非常危險，那當然就是台電的修復品質不好嘛！我想請問的是，如果假修復的品質不好，現在除了各縣市政府的裁罰，就像桃園養工處開了一張罰單，除了這種不痛不癢的裁罰之外，針對假修復的品質，中央有沒有一套完整的規範？針對沒有辦法做到的，有沒有一些懲罰機制？是不是可以請內政部或國土署來做一下說明？"],["吳署長欣修：說明一下，因為所謂的道路管挖、修補，或者是相關的建案要接管，必須要挖路再鋪，這屬於養護的部分，其實各縣市都有訂定相關刨鋪的處理機制，但是因為它不屬於條例、不屬於法令，所以大概都是用注意事項，或者是在復原的部分准不准許，也就是驗收，這部分第一個最常出現的問題大概就是回填品質不佳，這是第一個大問題，回填品質不佳往往就是回填的級配料品質不好，或者是回填的時候水泥灌漿的部分沒有做好。但是關鍵是在於整個道路養護的部分本來就是地方權責，所以第二個，我們也是希望地方政府能夠把它提升到類似自治條例的標準，這樣才有處罰的依據，否則以我們目前知道的，大多數是沒有所謂的處罰，因為有相關的處罰或沒收相關的保證金，對於包商才會有一個約束力。這是我們後續能夠要求地方政府來進行的部分，把它位階提升或許會比較好。"],["牛委員煦庭：我覺得署長今天回答非常的具體，可以當一回事來處理，因為道路假修復品質不佳的狀況到處都是，道路補丁、鋪得不好，造成一大堆的爭議等等，現有的力道是不足夠的，我剛剛其實有看到包含當初解凍理由都在講，有關於一些道路品質，路夠不夠平、修復品質好不好等等，其實也可以被列為補助的參考，我覺得這種東西……"],["吳署長欣修：不過我跟委員報告一下，尤其是提升道路品質部分，我們看的是長期年久失修……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，年久失修的。"],["吳署長欣修：年久失修才是，因為我們是有診斷道路PCI指數在做確認。"],["牛委員煦庭：你既有的標準，這我理解，因為我看到你的書面回復寫得很清楚，也就是說其實品質越不好，表示可能地方政府的財務等等更需要中央的支持……"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["牛委員煦庭：這一點本席完全同意，但我希望未來把假修復的品質，我只針對假修復這件事情，也就是說我有開挖等等，假如他修得很爛的，你要有一些處罰的機制，可以是中央召集各個縣市政府來做，比如位階的提升、標準的修正或者是善用補助的額度，把它納入一定的KPI或核定的辦法，我覺得這是可以思考的方向，這種東西不分縣市的，因為這種東西一定要做好，跟大家的生活品質有關。是不是針對這個部分，我們一樣來研究一下？"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下好了，以中央來講，第一個，我們是可以針對相關國營事業，就是管線單位，我們大概年度都有做一些檢討，這個部分我們可以來做，但是相關養護的標準跟條例的訂定，這個我們是督促地方政府來訂定，並不是中央自己單獨立法，因為……"],["牛委員煦庭：我理解，我的意思是你可以召集縣市政府來商量，大家有好的標準……"],["吳署長欣修：對，這個部分再說明一下，以我們來講，其實審計部當時的報告，我們會覺得對一些非六都的縣市是相對不公平，因為非六都的條件本來就差。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["吳署長欣修：所以即使我做了一些補助，它也不可能快速的提升。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯、沒錯。"],["吳署長欣修：當然也不能以這樣的理由，說它的交通條件不好，就表示執行不佳，這有點雞生蛋、蛋生雞的問題，其實我覺得……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，所以我才講重點只有假修復，因為假修復大家都有一些不好……"],["吳署長欣修：對，所以我才跟委員報告說這就是為什麼你當時在提這個專案報告時，我們也會覺得怪怪的，但是我想都是尊重，否則以我們來講，會覺得原來的內容就寫得很奇怪。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個提案的內容都可受公評，這是大家在這一段時間都已經知道的事情，但是該走的程序都有走，而且藉由這樣的東西來做政策研討，對大家來講也不是一件壞事。部長要補充說明嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，您剛剛提到有關道路品質修復不佳的部分。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["劉部長世芳：其實有一些縣市地方政府會透過議會來制定這個單行法規……"],["牛委員煦庭：自治條例，對。"],["劉部長世芳：這種單行法規的約束力才會比較強。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["劉部長世芳：譬如以前高雄市在處理的時候，新的道路有的時候已經鋪好了……"],["牛委員煦庭：你有禁挖，對。"],["劉部長世芳：但不到一個月就開始有人要裝電線、水管或者旁邊有新蓋的大樓，其實只要有一條道路的品質開始被破壞，其他的就完全破壞掉。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["劉部長世芳：所以透過養護的單位，它在地方縣市政府的執行會比較強，其實我們會鼓勵每個縣市地方政府，尤其是非六都的部分，如果能夠有這樣的單行法規來強制開挖單位要在一定的法定時間或一定品質的狀況之下才能夠確保，否則中央如果幫忙他們的話，只會像剛剛署長所說的，因為本來就不好了，結果開挖越多、修復越多，變成是一個惡性循環，導致道路的品質不好，就會被審計部說哪個地方有很多不同的缺點，所以這是中央跟地方政府要一起努力的。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝部長的補充說明，其實我的概念也是這樣，你用什麼樣的方式可以召集、可以鼓勵，比如我願意做單行法規並加強管束，就可以在補助的時候優先性高一點，我覺得這就是中央可以處理的事，當然我會給你空間，因為我們想把問題點出來，一定要給行政機關一點時間去溝通、去嘗試，然後我們再來檢視成效。但有關假修復的問題，如果可以在這屆政府的任內有一個很好的升級，對於地方政府、中央政府都會加分，所以今天本席提兩個：第一個，針對未來生活圈道路的補助，希望多增加跨域的部分；第二個，針對道路假修復的品質要求，希望我們的政府──中央跟地方，大家都要再更積極一點，不管是國土署也好、內政部也好，把這當一回事來辦，好嗎？好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢，謝謝劉部長、謝謝吳署長。"],["主席（牛委員煦庭）：好，下一位我們請吳琪銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-8","speakers":["牛煦庭","張宏陸","李柏毅","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","蘇巧慧","黃建賓","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","張啓楷","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":295,"meetingDate":["2025-04-07"],"gazette_id":"1143401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、交通部就「市區道路品質改善計畫執行效益與檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143401_00011"}}}