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790.815, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"著\", \"start\": 790.815, \"end\": 790.935, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 790.935, \"end\": 791.116, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 791.116, \"end\": 791.276, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"病\", \"start\": 791.276, \"end\": 791.416, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 791.416, \"end\": 791.576, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"病\", \"start\": 791.576, \"end\": 791.677, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 791.677, \"end\": 791.817, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 791.817, \"end\": 791.957, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 791.957, \"end\": 792.157, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 792.157, \"end\": 792.498, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"談\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 792.498, \"end\": 792.618, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 792.618, \"end\": 792.738, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 792.738, \"end\": 792.839, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 792.839, \"end\": 792.939, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 792.939, \"end\": 793.039, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 793.039, \"end\": 793.299, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"態\"}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 793.299, \"end\": 793.64, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 793.64, \"end\": 793.76, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 793.76, \"end\": 793.901, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 793.901, \"end\": 794.662, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 794.662, \"end\": 794.922, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 794.922, \"end\": 795.043, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 795.043, \"end\": 795.143, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 795.143, \"end\": 795.223, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 795.223, \"end\": 795.243, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"記\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 795.243, \"end\": 795.323, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 795.323, \"end\": 795.403, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 795.403, \"end\": 795.423, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,984 --> 00:00:27,942\n陳委員早部長早部長就這個川普的關稅海嘯即將來襲那你目前的掌握哪一些產業的勞工會受到最嚴重的衝擊你手邊有這樣的評估嗎就目前其實因為美方其實在提供相關的資訊其實陸陸續續都還有一些新的資訊我想大家都知道\n\n2\n00:00:28,402 --> 00:00:52,785\n所以應該是說目前還沒有具體的沒有應變的那個措施不是當然有我剛才講的是說因為美方確實現在他的相關的做法上面還陸續在提供一些新的資訊但我們目前是有認為確實來自一些傳統產業尤其是製造業出口的製造業可能會是受到影響比較重比方說機械\n\n3\n00:00:54,611 --> 00:01:10,684\n汽車零組件包括橡膠、塑膠、石化、水五金等等我們其實重點在關注這些產業相關的勞工希望你的政策能夠讓勞工比較安心但是我要講說現在已經有企業開始裁員停工放無薪假了你知道這件事嗎\n\n4\n00:01:11,244 --> 00:01:33,090\n我們其實最近在媒體上面有看到我們收到很多在野黨的立委都收到很多有看到這事情那我們現在把通報的機制給建立起來包括這些資訊的回報的機制給建立起來那媒體上面有目前聽聞的我們也會打電話過去我們也跟他們主動的去了解實際的狀況會如何來掌握這些最快速的掌握這些訊息\n\n5\n00:01:33,690 --> 00:01:57,512\n我的目的是告訴你星期一我們也一起到行政院去跟卓院長共商國事啦那因為本黨立場非常清楚我們一定是國家利益高於政黨利益啦面對這個難關大家一起要來度過那如果說為了因應這個關稅的衝擊假設勞動部有任何特別的預算你要提出來那我們覺得只要是這個合理而且預期有效那我們一定支持好嗎我就先告訴部長謝謝\n\n6\n00:01:59,454 --> 00:02:19,566\n部長那我們還是要回到今天的你的報告主題啦就業安定基金啦那這個你當然在善後啦你現在在善後當然我相信你會很頭大我不曉得你睡不睡了早不覺啦那當然這個總統講了用了一句不太下當的這個做法至少我們還有音樂不過那個部長你知道現在音樂會不能再用就業安定基金來處理了嗎部長\n\n7\n00:02:21,607 --> 00:02:34,663\n是不是以後就業安定基金不可以用在這個只有我們會把就業安定基金的用途做出更清楚的規範部長那我現在想請教你因為剛剛幾個部首會\n\n8\n00:02:36,886 --> 00:03:01,173\n不會算都報告了許前部長的演唱會記錄曝光他的法律依據竟然就是提升勞工福祉那個部分那審計部也揪出前5年救安基金違法大概有7224萬是不符合他們用的是關聯性不高啦那關聯性不高就是不符合法定用途對嗎不符合法定用途嗎關聯性不高不符合嘛我跟委員說明\n\n9\n00:03:03,077 --> 00:03:26,587\n審計部的報告他的那最後的判定是關聯性不高因於修正收回但是否違法這部分還是需要由司法單位來去做這個你的意思說不符合法定用途就不等於違法你這個邏輯人民可以接受嗎不符合法定的用途就不等於違法這個邏輯大家可以接受嗎那個\n\n10\n00:03:28,519 --> 00:03:56,149\n我要說的是說審計部的判定是和關聯性不高當然他是跟救安基金的法定用途來去做對照認為關聯性不高但是否是違法使用是否違法營私是否人謀不章這樣子的違法這部分當然這是另外一個層次我想要繼續請教你七千多萬被亂花了只需要修正\n\n11\n00:03:56,969 --> 00:04:07,299\n那你要怎麼究責目前我要看到的是不是修正的部分因為這是確定的部分那你這個究責的部分因為你說這個是歸納科目不當啦那這個很離譜啊我覺得這個玩文字遊戲啊那早期的蔡英文總統的那個專輯啊明明就是那個走私就是說是超買啊那你現在這個東西這個\n\n12\n00:04:21,272 --> 00:04:30,099\n歸納成不當用法這個歸納不當那就是說意思是說如果用就業安定性辦演唱會不行那我們換個名目就行了嗎你的意思就變這樣啊這是歸納的名目不當成為你用的應該是我在臉書上面其實寫的\n\n13\n00:04:39,087 --> 00:05:04,964\n這個我上面的說明是說明什麼叫做修正修正的意思是什麼所以我這句話的意思是如果被判定修正的話過去可能會有哪些種樣態歸納科目不當是其中一種樣態我的整個完整的句子是這樣的敘述的我也有繼續看你講了一句是說你要先行政院爭取編列明年的公務預算來這個歸還就業安定基金這個很離譜\n\n14\n00:05:06,425 --> 00:05:11,731\n意思是說勞動部亂花人民的錢納稅錢你現在要叫人民的納稅錢再挖一筆錢來補這個洞這樣對嗎這樣對嗎這個預算能不砍嗎你先亂花了一筆人民錢現在叫人民的納稅錢再來補這個洞這是你的建議\n\n15\n00:05:26,847 --> 00:05:51,717\n陳委員我向你說明第一個我們其實必須勞動部是一個行政部門我們必須要尊重也依照審計部的審計結果以及相關規範來辦理那過去如果有被判定為修正檢列並收回的話編列公務預算來歸電是做法之一被判定為修正檢列\n\n16\n00:05:53,766 --> 00:06:04,221\n要追回那編列公務預算規定是做法之一那我是一個行政部門我必須要依照審計的審計結果跟審計的規範來進行\n\n17\n00:06:09,140 --> 00:06:28,086\n我們還有別的方法部長你現在在說明這個但人民能不能接受我們來談預算法第25條政府不得於預算所定之外動用公款那有違背的支出應該以民法的規定請求返還那我現在要請教你勞動部有沒有對許明春謝怡榮提告\n\n18\n00:06:29,742 --> 00:06:40,273\n這是預算法跟陳委員說明我們接下來因為現在我知道大家很關心比方說決策者的責任\n\n19\n00:06:42,428 --> 00:07:07,896\n你先說你有沒有打算提告大家關心絕對責任目前我們關於追究責任的部分我們會配合檢調跟司法的結果來追究部長你又來了檢調它追查的是一個圖利貪污的刑事責任我現在談的是民事責任根據預算法這個是兩件事請你要先分開根據預算法你可以去打民事官司討回來\n\n20\n00:07:09,016 --> 00:07:27,870\n你不要什麼事都丟給丟皮球給檢調檢調辦的是刑事的我沒有丟皮球給檢調所以我請問勞動部你有沒有要對許明春謝宜榮提告什麼時候提告我們相關的責任的追究我們會配合目前檢調跟司法都在辦我們會配合檢調跟司法的結果來去做追究\n\n21\n00:07:29,897 --> 00:07:50,205\n你就是不想按照預算法來處理民事行政的部分看來你是不會做這個提告你還是要納稅人權來補動那我現在下一題我問你這個警消組工會你在上一屆跟本屆立委的時候您都有連署這個支持警消組工會的法案我想問你你現在立場還一樣嗎\n\n22\n00:07:53,673 --> 00:08:03,501\n部長因為你簽署過嘛你的立場還一樣嗎你不要跟我說時空背景不同你最新的一份是去年五月不到一年不到一年沒有時空背景不同的問題\n\n23\n00:08:05,069 --> 00:08:22,320\n那個跟陳委員說明目前其實針對這個相關組工會的問題目前我們這是兩院在做討論目前考試院還是目前考試院會是以公務員學會法的方式來去處理團結權\n\n24\n00:08:24,963 --> 00:08:45,840\n公會法是但是我說這個議題是兩院在討論目前在行政跟考試院因為公會法是你管的那我可以問你的態度你的態度是什麼就是這個議題是兩院在討論那目前考試院還是希望用協會法來去處理包括警校跟公務員的團結權跟協商權\n\n25\n00:08:48,842 --> 00:09:09,782\n你擔心罷工權對不對你是擔心罷工權嗎你是擔心當初你連署那我先問你一件事老師可不可以組工會教師可以組工會現在教師是可以組工會的那教師沒有罷工權嘛對不對現在是組工會跟罷工權是可以討論的嘛第一個層次是你要不要讓他組工會然後再來才是說你要有哪些權利嘛\n\n26\n00:09:10,242 --> 00:09:35,318\n那你的態度是什麼所以我跟陳委員說明在這個議題上面兩院目前的討論是希望用協會法你是勞動部長你一直在跟我說兩院啊你的工會法你在管啊你的態度是但是我是兩院的成員之一啊沒有你就代表勞動部去談啊談這件事啊對但是我的意思是說我這樣講可不可以就是說如果警消不給予罷工權那你同意他們組工會嗎\n\n27\n00:09:37,280 --> 00:10:01,789\n呃陳委目前確實在兩院在商量這件事情在討論這件事情的時候目前還是以公務員協會法現在都不當勞動部長了就是病院的部長了好啦那我問你齁那個你們家柯總召齁說警消組工會齁會造成那個中共侵台啊你同意嗎你同意嗎齁寫得很清楚喔你同意嗎你就告訴我你同意這個說法嗎呃我尊重柯總召的你尊重他的說法\n\n28\n00:10:03,071 --> 00:10:12,932\n他這個抹紅基層這個員工的警消的這個姓抹紅他們你還是打擊工會存在的意義你尊重他的說法\n\n29\n00:10:14,637 --> 00:10:39,607\n我的意思是說這是柯總召他的認為我問你嘛他的說法那你同意嗎那我還是回到在兩院在討論這些相關議題的時候我們還是希望能夠盡量的去協助團結權跟協商權罷工是很不得已是最後手段你知道政府要爛到一個程度罷工權才會處理我問你你知道醫院已經有工會了你知道醫院有工會嗎那你擔心醫院會罷工嗎\n\n30\n00:10:46,224 --> 00:11:05,442\n這個上次我說那個盧媽媽的事情她叫盧媽媽你叫盧媽媽那你就回到家庭去服務就好了我問你說為了性平你好好在那個時候做一個宣傳這個性平那你也不肯你說你們總召做這個你們也不肯現在總召說這個會清台景霄的主公會也會清台\n\n31\n00:11:06,343 --> 00:11:17,732\n你也沒有態度喔?你怎麼這麼軟趴趴?你什麼都不敢講?你只敢罵我們家國昌喔?你只會罵這個國昌對不對?我不想講他的名字,他在去年審議宣的時候,他說他要保證三道讓國人有感啦!我問大家!\n\n32\n00:11:29,454 --> 00:11:55,254\n我們的總預算被這樣亂刪亂砍你有感的嗎你憤怒嗎我知道已經憤怒到都已經坐不住了對不對人民當然憤怒啊你把這個錢拿去開演唱會拿去裝潢豪華的辦公室人民當然憤怒啊所以這個我覺得部長我再跟你最後講一句話我禮拜一進去行政院的時候因為卓院長說這一次的這是我面對這個\n\n33\n00:11:57,075 --> 00:12:19,082\n關稅的海嘯我們有很多事要立法院配合不是只有關稅部分有很多非關稅貿易障礙的部分還有一些法規要鬆綁他希望我們配合我跟他講了一句話我說好你要大家配合那你現在不要搞這個你再搞大罷免這個部分那如果說民間團體我們尊重他立法院我們尊重他但是行政官員你現在要立法院配合啊\n\n34\n00:12:19,622 --> 00:12:41,061\n那我可不可以勸你一句話你聽聽看因為我也跟左院長這樣講的可不可以行政官員行政人員不要上台不要去上大罷免的舞台去高談闊論發佈假訊息你可以嗎你可以嗎你做得到嗎我這樣跟左院長講的第一個事情是這個罷免與否跟行政部門的關聯比較不大那你上台啦\n\n35\n00:12:43,462 --> 00:12:49,164\n我上面講我其實是復述黃委員的說法因為這個保證三道讓國人有感這是他講的話國難當前我剛剛就跟你講你要拿公務預算去補一個公務人員亂花的錢這個錢不砍怎麼行啊所以我還是要強調關於審計的部分我們必須尊重也依照審計的結果還有相關的規範來去做辦理\n\n36\n00:13:07,930 --> 00:13:15,423\n好啦部長謝謝你要記得你是勞動部部長不要動不著跟我說病院病院兩個人一起談你都沒有自己態度這樣行不行部長你自己要記得勞動部長好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4984\t27942\t陳委員早部長早 部長就這個川普的關稅海嘯即將來襲那你目前的掌握哪一些產業的勞工會受到最嚴重的衝擊你手邊有這樣的評估嗎就目前其實因為美方其實在提供相關的資訊其實陸陸續續都還有一些新的資訊我想大家都知道\n28402\t52785\t所以應該是說目前還沒有具體的沒有應變的那個措施不是當然有我剛才講的是說因為美方確實現在他的相關的做法上面還陸續在提供一些新的資訊但我們目前是有認為確實來自一些傳統產業尤其是製造業出口的製造業可能會是受到影響比較重比方說機械\n54611\t70684\t汽車零組件包括橡膠、塑膠、石化、水五金等等我們其實重點在關注這些產業相關的勞工希望你的政策能夠讓勞工比較安心但是我要講說現在已經有企業開始裁員停工放無薪假了你知道這件事嗎\n71244\t93090\t我們其實最近在媒體上面有看到我們收到很多在野黨的立委都收到很多有看到這事情那我們現在把通報的機制給建立起來包括這些資訊的回報的機制給建立起來那媒體上面有目前聽聞的我們也會打電話過去我們也跟他們主動的去了解實際的狀況會如何來掌握這些最快速的掌握這些訊息\n93690\t117512\t我的目的是告訴你星期一我們也一起到行政院去跟卓院長共商國事啦那因為本黨立場非常清楚我們一定是國家利益高於政黨利益啦面對這個難關大家一起要來度過那如果說為了因應這個關稅的衝擊假設勞動部有任何特別的預算你要提出來那我們覺得只要是這個合理而且預期有效那我們一定支持好嗎我就先告訴部長謝謝\n119454\t139566\t部長那我們還是要回到今天的你的報告主題啦就業安定基金啦那這個你當然在善後啦你現在在善後當然我相信你會很頭大我不曉得你睡不睡了早不覺啦那當然這個總統講了用了一句不太下當的這個做法至少我們還有音樂不過那個部長你知道現在音樂會不能再用就業安定基金來處理了嗎部長\n141607\t154663\t是不是以後就業安定基金不可以用在這個只有我們會把就業安定基金的用途做出更清楚的規範部長那我現在想請教你因為剛剛幾個部首會\n156886\t181173\t不會算都報告了許前部長的演唱會記錄曝光他的法律依據竟然就是提升勞工福祉那個部分那審計部也揪出前5年救安基金違法大概有7224萬是不符合他們用的是關聯性不高啦那關聯性不高就是不符合法定用途對嗎不符合法定用途嗎關聯性不高不符合嘛我跟委員說明\n183077\t206587\t審計部的報告他的那最後的判定是關聯性不高因於修正收回但是否違法這部分還是需要由司法單位來去做這個你的意思說不符合法定用途就不等於違法你這個邏輯人民可以接受嗎不符合法定的用途就不等於違法這個邏輯大家可以接受嗎那個\n208519\t236149\t我要說的是說 審計部的判定是和關聯性不高當然他是跟救安基金的法定用途來去做對照 認為關聯性不高但是否是違法使用 是否違法營私是否人謀不章 這樣子的違法這部分當然這是另外一個層次我想要繼續請教你七千多萬被亂花了 只需要修正\n236969\t247299\t那你要怎麼究責目前我要看到的是不是修正的部分因為這是確定的部分那你這個究責的部分因為你說這個是歸納科目不當啦那這個很離譜啊我覺得這個玩文字遊戲啊那早期的蔡英文總統的那個專輯啊明明就是那個走私就是說是超買啊那你現在這個東西這個\n261272\t270099\t歸納成不當用法這個歸納不當那就是說意思是說如果用就業安定性辦演唱會不行那我們換個名目就行了嗎你的意思就變這樣啊這是歸納的名目不當成為你用的應該是我在臉書上面其實寫的\n279087\t304964\t這個我上面的說明是說明什麼叫做修正修正的意思是什麼所以我這句話的意思是如果被判定修正的話過去可能會有哪些種樣態歸納科目不當是其中一種樣態我的整個完整的句子是這樣的敘述的我也有繼續看你講了一句是說你要先行政院爭取編列明年的公務預算來這個歸還就業安定基金這個很離譜\n306425\t311731\t意思是說勞動部亂花人民的錢納稅錢你現在要叫人民的納稅錢再挖一筆錢來補這個洞這樣對嗎這樣對嗎這個預算能不砍嗎你先亂花了一筆人民錢現在叫人民的納稅錢再來補這個洞這是你的建議\n326847\t351717\t陳委員我向你說明第一個我們其實必須 勞動部是一個行政部門我們必須要尊重也依照審計部的審計結果以及相關規範來辦理那過去如果有被判定為修正檢列並收回的話編列公務預算來歸電是做法之一被判定為修正檢列\n353766\t364221\t要追回那編列公務預算規定是做法之一那我是一個行政部門我必須要依照審計的審計結果跟審計的規範來進行\n369140\t388086\t我們還有別的方法部長你現在在說明這個但人民能不能接受我們來談預算法第25條政府不得於預算所定之外動用公款那有違背的支出應該以民法的規定請求返還那我現在要請教你勞動部有沒有對許明春謝怡榮提告\n389742\t400273\t這是預算法跟陳委員說明我們接下來因為現在我知道大家很關心比方說決策者的責任\n402428\t427896\t你先說你有沒有打算提告大家關心絕對責任目前我們關於追究責任的部分我們會配合檢調跟司法的結果來追究部長你又來了檢調它追查的是一個圖利貪污的刑事責任我現在談的是民事責任根據預算法這個是兩件事請你要先分開根據預算法你可以去打民事官司討回來\n429016\t447870\t你不要什麼事都丟給丟皮球給檢調檢調辦的是刑事的我沒有丟皮球給檢調所以我請問勞動部你有沒有要對許明春謝宜榮提告什麼時候提告我們相關的責任的追究我們會配合目前檢調跟司法都在辦我們會配合檢調跟司法的結果來去做追究\n449897\t470205\t你就是不想按照預算法來處理民事行政的部分看來你是不會做這個提告你還是要納稅人權來補動那我現在下一題我問你這個警消組工會你在上一屆跟本屆立委的時候 您都有連署這個支持警消組工會的法案我想問你 你現在立場還一樣嗎\n473673\t483501\t部長因為你簽署過嘛你的立場還一樣嗎你不要跟我說時空背景不同你最新的一份是去年五月不到一年不到一年沒有時空背景不同的問題\n485069\t502320\t那個跟陳委員說明目前其實針對這個相關組工會的問題目前我們這是兩院在做討論目前考試院還是目前考試院會是以公務員學會法的方式來去處理團結權\n504963\t525840\t公會法是但是我說這個議題是兩院在討論目前在行政跟考試院因為公會法是你管的那我可以問你的態度你的態度是什麼就是這個議題是兩院在討論那目前考試院還是希望用協會法來去處理包括警校跟公務員的團結權跟協商權\n528842\t549782\t你擔心罷工權對不對你是擔心罷工權嗎你是擔心當初你連署那我先問你一件事老師可不可以組工會教師可以組工會現在教師是可以組工會的那教師沒有罷工權嘛對不對現在是組工會跟罷工權是可以討論的嘛第一個層次是你要不要讓他組工會然後再來才是說你要有哪些權利嘛\n550242\t575318\t那你的態度是什麼所以我跟陳委員說明在這個議題上面兩院目前的討論是希望用協會法你是勞動部長你一直在跟我說兩院啊你的工會法你在管啊你的態度是但是我是兩院的成員之一啊沒有你就代表勞動部去談啊談這件事啊對但是我的意思是說我這樣講可不可以就是說如果警消不給予罷工權那你同意他們組工會嗎\n577280\t601789\t呃陳委目前確實在兩院在商量這件事情在討論這件事情的時候目前還是以公務員協會法現在都不當勞動部長了就是病院的部長了好啦那我問你齁那個你們家柯總召齁說警消組工會齁會造成那個中共侵台啊你同意嗎你同意嗎齁寫得很清楚喔你同意嗎你就告訴我你同意這個說法嗎呃我尊重柯總召的你尊重他的說法\n603071\t612932\t他這個抹紅基層這個員工的警消的這個姓抹紅他們你還是打擊工會存在的意義你尊重他的說法\n614637\t639607\t我的意思是說這是柯總召他的認為我問你嘛 他的說法那你同意嗎那我還是回到在兩院在討論這些相關議題的時候我們還是希望能夠盡量的去協助團結權跟協商權罷工是很不得已是最後手段你知道政府要爛到一個程度罷工權才會處理我問你 你知道醫院已經有工會了你知道醫院有工會嗎那你擔心醫院會罷工嗎\n646224\t665442\t這個上次我說那個盧媽媽的事情她叫盧媽媽你叫盧媽媽那你就回到家庭去服務就好了我問你說為了性平你好好在那個時候做一個宣傳這個性平那你也不肯你說你們總召做這個你們也不肯現在總召說這個會清台景霄的主公會也會清台\n666343\t677732\t你也沒有態度喔?你怎麼這麼軟趴趴?你什麼都不敢講?你只敢罵我們家國昌喔?你只會罵這個國昌對不對?我不想講他的名字,他在去年審議宣的時候,他說他要保證三道讓國人有感啦!我問大家!\n689454\t715254\t我們的總預算被這樣亂刪亂砍你有感的嗎你憤怒嗎我知道已經憤怒到都已經坐不住了對不對人民當然憤怒啊你把這個錢拿去開演唱會拿去裝潢豪華的辦公室人民當然憤怒啊所以這個我覺得部長我再跟你最後講一句話我禮拜一進去行政院的時候因為卓院長說這一次的這是我面對這個\n717075\t739082\t關稅的海嘯我們有很多事要立法院配合不是只有關稅部分有很多非關稅貿易障礙的部分還有一些法規要鬆綁他希望我們配合我跟他講了一句話我說好你要大家配合那你現在不要搞這個你再搞大罷免這個部分那如果說民間團體我們尊重他立法院我們尊重他但是行政官員你現在要立法院配合啊\n739622\t761061\t那我可不可以勸你一句話你聽聽看因為我也跟左院長這樣講的可不可以行政官員行政人員不要上台不要去上大罷免的舞台去高談闊論發佈假訊息你可以嗎你可以嗎你做得到嗎我這樣跟左院長講的第一個事情是這個罷免與否跟行政部門的關聯比較不大那你上台啦\n763462\t769164\t我上面講我其實是復述黃委員的說法因為這個保證三道讓國人有感這是他講的話國難當前我剛剛就跟你講你要拿公務預算去補一個公務人員亂花的錢這個錢不砍怎麼行啊所以我還是要強調關於審計的部分我們必須尊重也依照審計的結果還有相關的規範來去做辦理\n787930\t795423\t好啦部長謝謝你要記得你是勞動部部長不要動不著跟我說病院病院兩個人一起談你都沒有自己態度這樣行不行部長你自己要記得勞動部長好謝謝\n","txt":"陳委員早部長早 部長就這個川普的關稅海嘯即將來襲那你目前的掌握哪一些產業的勞工會受到最嚴重的衝擊你手邊有這樣的評估嗎就目前其實因為美方其實在提供相關的資訊其實陸陸續續都還有一些新的資訊我想大家都知道\n所以應該是說目前還沒有具體的沒有應變的那個措施不是當然有我剛才講的是說因為美方確實現在他的相關的做法上面還陸續在提供一些新的資訊但我們目前是有認為確實來自一些傳統產業尤其是製造業出口的製造業可能會是受到影響比較重比方說機械\n汽車零組件包括橡膠、塑膠、石化、水五金等等我們其實重點在關注這些產業相關的勞工希望你的政策能夠讓勞工比較安心但是我要講說現在已經有企業開始裁員停工放無薪假了你知道這件事嗎\n我們其實最近在媒體上面有看到我們收到很多在野黨的立委都收到很多有看到這事情那我們現在把通報的機制給建立起來包括這些資訊的回報的機制給建立起來那媒體上面有目前聽聞的我們也會打電話過去我們也跟他們主動的去了解實際的狀況會如何來掌握這些最快速的掌握這些訊息\n我的目的是告訴你星期一我們也一起到行政院去跟卓院長共商國事啦那因為本黨立場非常清楚我們一定是國家利益高於政黨利益啦面對這個難關大家一起要來度過那如果說為了因應這個關稅的衝擊假設勞動部有任何特別的預算你要提出來那我們覺得只要是這個合理而且預期有效那我們一定支持好嗎我就先告訴部長謝謝\n部長那我們還是要回到今天的你的報告主題啦就業安定基金啦那這個你當然在善後啦你現在在善後當然我相信你會很頭大我不曉得你睡不睡了早不覺啦那當然這個總統講了用了一句不太下當的這個做法至少我們還有音樂不過那個部長你知道現在音樂會不能再用就業安定基金來處理了嗎部長\n是不是以後就業安定基金不可以用在這個只有我們會把就業安定基金的用途做出更清楚的規範部長那我現在想請教你因為剛剛幾個部首會\n不會算都報告了許前部長的演唱會記錄曝光他的法律依據竟然就是提升勞工福祉那個部分那審計部也揪出前5年救安基金違法大概有7224萬是不符合他們用的是關聯性不高啦那關聯性不高就是不符合法定用途對嗎不符合法定用途嗎關聯性不高不符合嘛我跟委員說明\n審計部的報告他的那最後的判定是關聯性不高因於修正收回但是否違法這部分還是需要由司法單位來去做這個你的意思說不符合法定用途就不等於違法你這個邏輯人民可以接受嗎不符合法定的用途就不等於違法這個邏輯大家可以接受嗎那個\n我要說的是說 審計部的判定是和關聯性不高當然他是跟救安基金的法定用途來去做對照 認為關聯性不高但是否是違法使用 是否違法營私是否人謀不章 這樣子的違法這部分當然這是另外一個層次我想要繼續請教你七千多萬被亂花了 只需要修正\n那你要怎麼究責目前我要看到的是不是修正的部分因為這是確定的部分那你這個究責的部分因為你說這個是歸納科目不當啦那這個很離譜啊我覺得這個玩文字遊戲啊那早期的蔡英文總統的那個專輯啊明明就是那個走私就是說是超買啊那你現在這個東西這個\n歸納成不當用法這個歸納不當那就是說意思是說如果用就業安定性辦演唱會不行那我們換個名目就行了嗎你的意思就變這樣啊這是歸納的名目不當成為你用的應該是我在臉書上面其實寫的\n這個我上面的說明是說明什麼叫做修正修正的意思是什麼所以我這句話的意思是如果被判定修正的話過去可能會有哪些種樣態歸納科目不當是其中一種樣態我的整個完整的句子是這樣的敘述的我也有繼續看你講了一句是說你要先行政院爭取編列明年的公務預算來這個歸還就業安定基金這個很離譜\n意思是說勞動部亂花人民的錢納稅錢你現在要叫人民的納稅錢再挖一筆錢來補這個洞這樣對嗎這樣對嗎這個預算能不砍嗎你先亂花了一筆人民錢現在叫人民的納稅錢再來補這個洞這是你的建議\n陳委員我向你說明第一個我們其實必須 勞動部是一個行政部門我們必須要尊重也依照審計部的審計結果以及相關規範來辦理那過去如果有被判定為修正檢列並收回的話編列公務預算來歸電是做法之一被判定為修正檢列\n要追回那編列公務預算規定是做法之一那我是一個行政部門我必須要依照審計的審計結果跟審計的規範來進行\n我們還有別的方法部長你現在在說明這個但人民能不能接受我們來談預算法第25條政府不得於預算所定之外動用公款那有違背的支出應該以民法的規定請求返還那我現在要請教你勞動部有沒有對許明春謝怡榮提告\n這是預算法跟陳委員說明我們接下來因為現在我知道大家很關心比方說決策者的責任\n你先說你有沒有打算提告大家關心絕對責任目前我們關於追究責任的部分我們會配合檢調跟司法的結果來追究部長你又來了檢調它追查的是一個圖利貪污的刑事責任我現在談的是民事責任根據預算法這個是兩件事請你要先分開根據預算法你可以去打民事官司討回來\n你不要什麼事都丟給丟皮球給檢調檢調辦的是刑事的我沒有丟皮球給檢調所以我請問勞動部你有沒有要對許明春謝宜榮提告什麼時候提告我們相關的責任的追究我們會配合目前檢調跟司法都在辦我們會配合檢調跟司法的結果來去做追究\n你就是不想按照預算法來處理民事行政的部分看來你是不會做這個提告你還是要納稅人權來補動那我現在下一題我問你這個警消組工會你在上一屆跟本屆立委的時候 您都有連署這個支持警消組工會的法案我想問你 你現在立場還一樣嗎\n部長因為你簽署過嘛你的立場還一樣嗎你不要跟我說時空背景不同你最新的一份是去年五月不到一年不到一年沒有時空背景不同的問題\n那個跟陳委員說明目前其實針對這個相關組工會的問題目前我們這是兩院在做討論目前考試院還是目前考試院會是以公務員學會法的方式來去處理團結權\n公會法是但是我說這個議題是兩院在討論目前在行政跟考試院因為公會法是你管的那我可以問你的態度你的態度是什麼就是這個議題是兩院在討論那目前考試院還是希望用協會法來去處理包括警校跟公務員的團結權跟協商權\n你擔心罷工權對不對你是擔心罷工權嗎你是擔心當初你連署那我先問你一件事老師可不可以組工會教師可以組工會現在教師是可以組工會的那教師沒有罷工權嘛對不對現在是組工會跟罷工權是可以討論的嘛第一個層次是你要不要讓他組工會然後再來才是說你要有哪些權利嘛\n那你的態度是什麼所以我跟陳委員說明在這個議題上面兩院目前的討論是希望用協會法你是勞動部長你一直在跟我說兩院啊你的工會法你在管啊你的態度是但是我是兩院的成員之一啊沒有你就代表勞動部去談啊談這件事啊對但是我的意思是說我這樣講可不可以就是說如果警消不給予罷工權那你同意他們組工會嗎\n呃陳委目前確實在兩院在商量這件事情在討論這件事情的時候目前還是以公務員協會法現在都不當勞動部長了就是病院的部長了好啦那我問你齁那個你們家柯總召齁說警消組工會齁會造成那個中共侵台啊你同意嗎你同意嗎齁寫得很清楚喔你同意嗎你就告訴我你同意這個說法嗎呃我尊重柯總召的你尊重他的說法\n他這個抹紅基層這個員工的警消的這個姓抹紅他們你還是打擊工會存在的意義你尊重他的說法\n我的意思是說這是柯總召他的認為我問你嘛 他的說法那你同意嗎那我還是回到在兩院在討論這些相關議題的時候我們還是希望能夠盡量的去協助團結權跟協商權罷工是很不得已是最後手段你知道政府要爛到一個程度罷工權才會處理我問你 你知道醫院已經有工會了你知道醫院有工會嗎那你擔心醫院會罷工嗎\n這個上次我說那個盧媽媽的事情她叫盧媽媽你叫盧媽媽那你就回到家庭去服務就好了我問你說為了性平你好好在那個時候做一個宣傳這個性平那你也不肯你說你們總召做這個你們也不肯現在總召說這個會清台景霄的主公會也會清台\n你也沒有態度喔?你怎麼這麼軟趴趴?你什麼都不敢講?你只敢罵我們家國昌喔?你只會罵這個國昌對不對?我不想講他的名字,他在去年審議宣的時候,他說他要保證三道讓國人有感啦!我問大家!\n我們的總預算被這樣亂刪亂砍你有感的嗎你憤怒嗎我知道已經憤怒到都已經坐不住了對不對人民當然憤怒啊你把這個錢拿去開演唱會拿去裝潢豪華的辦公室人民當然憤怒啊所以這個我覺得部長我再跟你最後講一句話我禮拜一進去行政院的時候因為卓院長說這一次的這是我面對這個\n關稅的海嘯我們有很多事要立法院配合不是只有關稅部分有很多非關稅貿易障礙的部分還有一些法規要鬆綁他希望我們配合我跟他講了一句話我說好你要大家配合那你現在不要搞這個你再搞大罷免這個部分那如果說民間團體我們尊重他立法院我們尊重他但是行政官員你現在要立法院配合啊\n那我可不可以勸你一句話你聽聽看因為我也跟左院長這樣講的可不可以行政官員行政人員不要上台不要去上大罷免的舞台去高談闊論發佈假訊息你可以嗎你可以嗎你做得到嗎我這樣跟左院長講的第一個事情是這個罷免與否跟行政部門的關聯比較不大那你上台啦\n我上面講我其實是復述黃委員的說法因為這個保證三道讓國人有感這是他講的話國難當前我剛剛就跟你講你要拿公務預算去補一個公務人員亂花的錢這個錢不砍怎麼行啊所以我還是要強調關於審計的部分我們必須尊重也依照審計的結果還有相關的規範來去做辦理\n好啦部長謝謝你要記得你是勞動部部長不要動不著跟我說病院病院兩個人一起談你都沒有自己態度這樣行不行部長你自己要記得勞動部長好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.984 --> 00:27.942\n陳委員早部長早部長就這個川普的關稅海嘯即將來襲那你目前的掌握哪一些產業的勞工會受到最嚴重的衝擊你手邊有這樣的評估嗎就目前其實因為美方其實在提供相關的資訊其實陸陸續續都還有一些新的資訊我想大家都知道\n\n00:28.402 --> 00:52.785\n所以應該是說目前還沒有具體的沒有應變的那個措施不是當然有我剛才講的是說因為美方確實現在他的相關的做法上面還陸續在提供一些新的資訊但我們目前是有認為確實來自一些傳統產業尤其是製造業出口的製造業可能會是受到影響比較重比方說機械\n\n00:54.611 --> 01:10.684\n汽車零組件包括橡膠、塑膠、石化、水五金等等我們其實重點在關注這些產業相關的勞工希望你的政策能夠讓勞工比較安心但是我要講說現在已經有企業開始裁員停工放無薪假了你知道這件事嗎\n\n01:11.244 --> 01:33.090\n我們其實最近在媒體上面有看到我們收到很多在野黨的立委都收到很多有看到這事情那我們現在把通報的機制給建立起來包括這些資訊的回報的機制給建立起來那媒體上面有目前聽聞的我們也會打電話過去我們也跟他們主動的去了解實際的狀況會如何來掌握這些最快速的掌握這些訊息\n\n01:33.690 --> 01:57.512\n我的目的是告訴你星期一我們也一起到行政院去跟卓院長共商國事啦那因為本黨立場非常清楚我們一定是國家利益高於政黨利益啦面對這個難關大家一起要來度過那如果說為了因應這個關稅的衝擊假設勞動部有任何特別的預算你要提出來那我們覺得只要是這個合理而且預期有效那我們一定支持好嗎我就先告訴部長謝謝\n\n01:59.454 --> 02:19.566\n部長那我們還是要回到今天的你的報告主題啦就業安定基金啦那這個你當然在善後啦你現在在善後當然我相信你會很頭大我不曉得你睡不睡了早不覺啦那當然這個總統講了用了一句不太下當的這個做法至少我們還有音樂不過那個部長你知道現在音樂會不能再用就業安定基金來處理了嗎部長\n\n02:21.607 --> 02:34.663\n是不是以後就業安定基金不可以用在這個只有我們會把就業安定基金的用途做出更清楚的規範部長那我現在想請教你因為剛剛幾個部首會\n\n02:36.886 --> 03:01.173\n不會算都報告了許前部長的演唱會記錄曝光他的法律依據竟然就是提升勞工福祉那個部分那審計部也揪出前5年救安基金違法大概有7224萬是不符合他們用的是關聯性不高啦那關聯性不高就是不符合法定用途對嗎不符合法定用途嗎關聯性不高不符合嘛我跟委員說明\n\n03:03.077 --> 03:26.587\n審計部的報告他的那最後的判定是關聯性不高因於修正收回但是否違法這部分還是需要由司法單位來去做這個你的意思說不符合法定用途就不等於違法你這個邏輯人民可以接受嗎不符合法定的用途就不等於違法這個邏輯大家可以接受嗎那個\n\n03:28.519 --> 03:56.149\n我要說的是說審計部的判定是和關聯性不高當然他是跟救安基金的法定用途來去做對照認為關聯性不高但是否是違法使用是否違法營私是否人謀不章這樣子的違法這部分當然這是另外一個層次我想要繼續請教你七千多萬被亂花了只需要修正\n\n03:56.969 --> 04:07.299\n那你要怎麼究責目前我要看到的是不是修正的部分因為這是確定的部分那你這個究責的部分因為你說這個是歸納科目不當啦那這個很離譜啊我覺得這個玩文字遊戲啊那早期的蔡英文總統的那個專輯啊明明就是那個走私就是說是超買啊那你現在這個東西這個\n\n04:21.272 --> 04:30.099\n歸納成不當用法這個歸納不當那就是說意思是說如果用就業安定性辦演唱會不行那我們換個名目就行了嗎你的意思就變這樣啊這是歸納的名目不當成為你用的應該是我在臉書上面其實寫的\n\n04:39.087 --> 05:04.964\n這個我上面的說明是說明什麼叫做修正修正的意思是什麼所以我這句話的意思是如果被判定修正的話過去可能會有哪些種樣態歸納科目不當是其中一種樣態我的整個完整的句子是這樣的敘述的我也有繼續看你講了一句是說你要先行政院爭取編列明年的公務預算來這個歸還就業安定基金這個很離譜\n\n05:06.425 --> 05:11.731\n意思是說勞動部亂花人民的錢納稅錢你現在要叫人民的納稅錢再挖一筆錢來補這個洞這樣對嗎這樣對嗎這個預算能不砍嗎你先亂花了一筆人民錢現在叫人民的納稅錢再來補這個洞這是你的建議\n\n05:26.847 --> 05:51.717\n陳委員我向你說明第一個我們其實必須勞動部是一個行政部門我們必須要尊重也依照審計部的審計結果以及相關規範來辦理那過去如果有被判定為修正檢列並收回的話編列公務預算來歸電是做法之一被判定為修正檢列\n\n05:53.766 --> 06:04.221\n要追回那編列公務預算規定是做法之一那我是一個行政部門我必須要依照審計的審計結果跟審計的規範來進行\n\n06:09.140 --> 06:28.086\n我們還有別的方法部長你現在在說明這個但人民能不能接受我們來談預算法第25條政府不得於預算所定之外動用公款那有違背的支出應該以民法的規定請求返還那我現在要請教你勞動部有沒有對許明春謝怡榮提告\n\n06:29.742 --> 06:40.273\n這是預算法跟陳委員說明我們接下來因為現在我知道大家很關心比方說決策者的責任\n\n06:42.428 --> 07:07.896\n你先說你有沒有打算提告大家關心絕對責任目前我們關於追究責任的部分我們會配合檢調跟司法的結果來追究部長你又來了檢調它追查的是一個圖利貪污的刑事責任我現在談的是民事責任根據預算法這個是兩件事請你要先分開根據預算法你可以去打民事官司討回來\n\n07:09.016 --> 07:27.870\n你不要什麼事都丟給丟皮球給檢調檢調辦的是刑事的我沒有丟皮球給檢調所以我請問勞動部你有沒有要對許明春謝宜榮提告什麼時候提告我們相關的責任的追究我們會配合目前檢調跟司法都在辦我們會配合檢調跟司法的結果來去做追究\n\n07:29.897 --> 07:50.205\n你就是不想按照預算法來處理民事行政的部分看來你是不會做這個提告你還是要納稅人權來補動那我現在下一題我問你這個警消組工會你在上一屆跟本屆立委的時候您都有連署這個支持警消組工會的法案我想問你你現在立場還一樣嗎\n\n07:53.673 --> 08:03.501\n部長因為你簽署過嘛你的立場還一樣嗎你不要跟我說時空背景不同你最新的一份是去年五月不到一年不到一年沒有時空背景不同的問題\n\n08:05.069 --> 08:22.320\n那個跟陳委員說明目前其實針對這個相關組工會的問題目前我們這是兩院在做討論目前考試院還是目前考試院會是以公務員學會法的方式來去處理團結權\n\n08:24.963 --> 08:45.840\n公會法是但是我說這個議題是兩院在討論目前在行政跟考試院因為公會法是你管的那我可以問你的態度你的態度是什麼就是這個議題是兩院在討論那目前考試院還是希望用協會法來去處理包括警校跟公務員的團結權跟協商權\n\n08:48.842 --> 09:09.782\n你擔心罷工權對不對你是擔心罷工權嗎你是擔心當初你連署那我先問你一件事老師可不可以組工會教師可以組工會現在教師是可以組工會的那教師沒有罷工權嘛對不對現在是組工會跟罷工權是可以討論的嘛第一個層次是你要不要讓他組工會然後再來才是說你要有哪些權利嘛\n\n09:10.242 --> 09:35.318\n那你的態度是什麼所以我跟陳委員說明在這個議題上面兩院目前的討論是希望用協會法你是勞動部長你一直在跟我說兩院啊你的工會法你在管啊你的態度是但是我是兩院的成員之一啊沒有你就代表勞動部去談啊談這件事啊對但是我的意思是說我這樣講可不可以就是說如果警消不給予罷工權那你同意他們組工會嗎\n\n09:37.280 --> 10:01.789\n呃陳委目前確實在兩院在商量這件事情在討論這件事情的時候目前還是以公務員協會法現在都不當勞動部長了就是病院的部長了好啦那我問你齁那個你們家柯總召齁說警消組工會齁會造成那個中共侵台啊你同意嗎你同意嗎齁寫得很清楚喔你同意嗎你就告訴我你同意這個說法嗎呃我尊重柯總召的你尊重他的說法\n\n10:03.071 --> 10:12.932\n他這個抹紅基層這個員工的警消的這個姓抹紅他們你還是打擊工會存在的意義你尊重他的說法\n\n10:14.637 --> 10:39.607\n我的意思是說這是柯總召他的認為我問你嘛他的說法那你同意嗎那我還是回到在兩院在討論這些相關議題的時候我們還是希望能夠盡量的去協助團結權跟協商權罷工是很不得已是最後手段你知道政府要爛到一個程度罷工權才會處理我問你你知道醫院已經有工會了你知道醫院有工會嗎那你擔心醫院會罷工嗎\n\n10:46.224 --> 11:05.442\n這個上次我說那個盧媽媽的事情她叫盧媽媽你叫盧媽媽那你就回到家庭去服務就好了我問你說為了性平你好好在那個時候做一個宣傳這個性平那你也不肯你說你們總召做這個你們也不肯現在總召說這個會清台景霄的主公會也會清台\n\n11:06.343 --> 11:17.732\n你也沒有態度喔?你怎麼這麼軟趴趴?你什麼都不敢講?你只敢罵我們家國昌喔?你只會罵這個國昌對不對?我不想講他的名字,他在去年審議宣的時候,他說他要保證三道讓國人有感啦!我問大家!\n\n11:29.454 --> 11:55.254\n我們的總預算被這樣亂刪亂砍你有感的嗎你憤怒嗎我知道已經憤怒到都已經坐不住了對不對人民當然憤怒啊你把這個錢拿去開演唱會拿去裝潢豪華的辦公室人民當然憤怒啊所以這個我覺得部長我再跟你最後講一句話我禮拜一進去行政院的時候因為卓院長說這一次的這是我面對這個\n\n11:57.075 --> 12:19.082\n關稅的海嘯我們有很多事要立法院配合不是只有關稅部分有很多非關稅貿易障礙的部分還有一些法規要鬆綁他希望我們配合我跟他講了一句話我說好你要大家配合那你現在不要搞這個你再搞大罷免這個部分那如果說民間團體我們尊重他立法院我們尊重他但是行政官員你現在要立法院配合啊\n\n12:19.622 --> 12:41.061\n那我可不可以勸你一句話你聽聽看因為我也跟左院長這樣講的可不可以行政官員行政人員不要上台不要去上大罷免的舞台去高談闊論發佈假訊息你可以嗎你可以嗎你做得到嗎我這樣跟左院長講的第一個事情是這個罷免與否跟行政部門的關聯比較不大那你上台啦\n\n12:43.462 --> 12:49.164\n我上面講我其實是復述黃委員的說法因為這個保證三道讓國人有感這是他講的話國難當前我剛剛就跟你講你要拿公務預算去補一個公務人員亂花的錢這個錢不砍怎麼行啊所以我還是要強調關於審計的部分我們必須尊重也依照審計的結果還有相關的規範來去做辦理\n\n13:07.930 --> 13:15.423\n好啦部長謝謝你要記得你是勞動部部長不要動不著跟我說病院病院兩個人一起談你都沒有自己態度這樣行不行部長你自己要記得勞動部長好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.984,"end":27.942,"text":"陳委員早部長早 部長就這個川普的關稅海嘯即將來襲那你目前的掌握哪一些產業的勞工會受到最嚴重的衝擊你手邊有這樣的評估嗎就目前其實因為美方其實在提供相關的資訊其實陸陸續續都還有一些新的資訊我想大家都知道"},{"start":28.402,"end":52.785,"text":"所以應該是說目前還沒有具體的沒有應變的那個措施不是當然有我剛才講的是說因為美方確實現在他的相關的做法上面還陸續在提供一些新的資訊但我們目前是有認為確實來自一些傳統產業尤其是製造業出口的製造業可能會是受到影響比較重比方說機械"},{"start":54.611,"end":70.684,"text":"汽車零組件包括橡膠、塑膠、石化、水五金等等我們其實重點在關注這些產業相關的勞工希望你的政策能夠讓勞工比較安心但是我要講說現在已經有企業開始裁員停工放無薪假了你知道這件事嗎"},{"start":71.244,"end":93.09,"text":"我們其實最近在媒體上面有看到我們收到很多在野黨的立委都收到很多有看到這事情那我們現在把通報的機制給建立起來包括這些資訊的回報的機制給建立起來那媒體上面有目前聽聞的我們也會打電話過去我們也跟他們主動的去了解實際的狀況會如何來掌握這些最快速的掌握這些訊息"},{"start":93.69,"end":117.512,"text":"我的目的是告訴你星期一我們也一起到行政院去跟卓院長共商國事啦那因為本黨立場非常清楚我們一定是國家利益高於政黨利益啦面對這個難關大家一起要來度過那如果說為了因應這個關稅的衝擊假設勞動部有任何特別的預算你要提出來那我們覺得只要是這個合理而且預期有效那我們一定支持好嗎我就先告訴部長謝謝"},{"start":119.454,"end":139.566,"text":"部長那我們還是要回到今天的你的報告主題啦就業安定基金啦那這個你當然在善後啦你現在在善後當然我相信你會很頭大我不曉得你睡不睡了早不覺啦那當然這個總統講了用了一句不太下當的這個做法至少我們還有音樂不過那個部長你知道現在音樂會不能再用就業安定基金來處理了嗎部長"},{"start":141.607,"end":154.663,"text":"是不是以後就業安定基金不可以用在這個只有我們會把就業安定基金的用途做出更清楚的規範部長那我現在想請教你因為剛剛幾個部首會"},{"start":156.886,"end":181.173,"text":"不會算都報告了許前部長的演唱會記錄曝光他的法律依據竟然就是提升勞工福祉那個部分那審計部也揪出前5年救安基金違法大概有7224萬是不符合他們用的是關聯性不高啦那關聯性不高就是不符合法定用途對嗎不符合法定用途嗎關聯性不高不符合嘛我跟委員說明"},{"start":183.077,"end":206.587,"text":"審計部的報告他的那最後的判定是關聯性不高因於修正收回但是否違法這部分還是需要由司法單位來去做這個你的意思說不符合法定用途就不等於違法你這個邏輯人民可以接受嗎不符合法定的用途就不等於違法這個邏輯大家可以接受嗎那個"},{"start":208.519,"end":236.149,"text":"我要說的是說 審計部的判定是和關聯性不高當然他是跟救安基金的法定用途來去做對照 認為關聯性不高但是否是違法使用 是否違法營私是否人謀不章 這樣子的違法這部分當然這是另外一個層次我想要繼續請教你七千多萬被亂花了 只需要修正"},{"start":236.969,"end":247.299,"text":"那你要怎麼究責目前我要看到的是不是修正的部分因為這是確定的部分那你這個究責的部分因為你說這個是歸納科目不當啦那這個很離譜啊我覺得這個玩文字遊戲啊那早期的蔡英文總統的那個專輯啊明明就是那個走私就是說是超買啊那你現在這個東西這個"},{"start":261.272,"end":270.099,"text":"歸納成不當用法這個歸納不當那就是說意思是說如果用就業安定性辦演唱會不行那我們換個名目就行了嗎你的意思就變這樣啊這是歸納的名目不當成為你用的應該是我在臉書上面其實寫的"},{"start":279.087,"end":304.964,"text":"這個我上面的說明是說明什麼叫做修正修正的意思是什麼所以我這句話的意思是如果被判定修正的話過去可能會有哪些種樣態歸納科目不當是其中一種樣態我的整個完整的句子是這樣的敘述的我也有繼續看你講了一句是說你要先行政院爭取編列明年的公務預算來這個歸還就業安定基金這個很離譜"},{"start":306.425,"end":311.731,"text":"意思是說勞動部亂花人民的錢納稅錢你現在要叫人民的納稅錢再挖一筆錢來補這個洞這樣對嗎這樣對嗎這個預算能不砍嗎你先亂花了一筆人民錢現在叫人民的納稅錢再來補這個洞這是你的建議"},{"start":326.847,"end":351.717,"text":"陳委員我向你說明第一個我們其實必須 勞動部是一個行政部門我們必須要尊重也依照審計部的審計結果以及相關規範來辦理那過去如果有被判定為修正檢列並收回的話編列公務預算來歸電是做法之一被判定為修正檢列"},{"start":353.766,"end":364.221,"text":"要追回那編列公務預算規定是做法之一那我是一個行政部門我必須要依照審計的審計結果跟審計的規範來進行"},{"start":369.14,"end":388.086,"text":"我們還有別的方法部長你現在在說明這個但人民能不能接受我們來談預算法第25條政府不得於預算所定之外動用公款那有違背的支出應該以民法的規定請求返還那我現在要請教你勞動部有沒有對許明春謝怡榮提告"},{"start":389.742,"end":400.273,"text":"這是預算法跟陳委員說明我們接下來因為現在我知道大家很關心比方說決策者的責任"},{"start":402.428,"end":427.896,"text":"你先說你有沒有打算提告大家關心絕對責任目前我們關於追究責任的部分我們會配合檢調跟司法的結果來追究部長你又來了檢調它追查的是一個圖利貪污的刑事責任我現在談的是民事責任根據預算法這個是兩件事請你要先分開根據預算法你可以去打民事官司討回來"},{"start":429.016,"end":447.87,"text":"你不要什麼事都丟給丟皮球給檢調檢調辦的是刑事的我沒有丟皮球給檢調所以我請問勞動部你有沒有要對許明春謝宜榮提告什麼時候提告我們相關的責任的追究我們會配合目前檢調跟司法都在辦我們會配合檢調跟司法的結果來去做追究"},{"start":449.897,"end":470.205,"text":"你就是不想按照預算法來處理民事行政的部分看來你是不會做這個提告你還是要納稅人權來補動那我現在下一題我問你這個警消組工會你在上一屆跟本屆立委的時候 您都有連署這個支持警消組工會的法案我想問你 你現在立場還一樣嗎"},{"start":473.673,"end":483.501,"text":"部長因為你簽署過嘛你的立場還一樣嗎你不要跟我說時空背景不同你最新的一份是去年五月不到一年不到一年沒有時空背景不同的問題"},{"start":485.069,"end":502.32,"text":"那個跟陳委員說明目前其實針對這個相關組工會的問題目前我們這是兩院在做討論目前考試院還是目前考試院會是以公務員學會法的方式來去處理團結權"},{"start":504.963,"end":525.84,"text":"公會法是但是我說這個議題是兩院在討論目前在行政跟考試院因為公會法是你管的那我可以問你的態度你的態度是什麼就是這個議題是兩院在討論那目前考試院還是希望用協會法來去處理包括警校跟公務員的團結權跟協商權"},{"start":528.842,"end":549.782,"text":"你擔心罷工權對不對你是擔心罷工權嗎你是擔心當初你連署那我先問你一件事老師可不可以組工會教師可以組工會現在教師是可以組工會的那教師沒有罷工權嘛對不對現在是組工會跟罷工權是可以討論的嘛第一個層次是你要不要讓他組工會然後再來才是說你要有哪些權利嘛"},{"start":550.242,"end":575.318,"text":"那你的態度是什麼所以我跟陳委員說明在這個議題上面兩院目前的討論是希望用協會法你是勞動部長你一直在跟我說兩院啊你的工會法你在管啊你的態度是但是我是兩院的成員之一啊沒有你就代表勞動部去談啊談這件事啊對但是我的意思是說我這樣講可不可以就是說如果警消不給予罷工權那你同意他們組工會嗎"},{"start":577.28,"end":601.789,"text":"呃陳委目前確實在兩院在商量這件事情在討論這件事情的時候目前還是以公務員協會法現在都不當勞動部長了就是病院的部長了好啦那我問你齁那個你們家柯總召齁說警消組工會齁會造成那個中共侵台啊你同意嗎你同意嗎齁寫得很清楚喔你同意嗎你就告訴我你同意這個說法嗎呃我尊重柯總召的你尊重他的說法"},{"start":603.071,"end":612.932,"text":"他這個抹紅基層這個員工的警消的這個姓抹紅他們你還是打擊工會存在的意義你尊重他的說法"},{"start":614.637,"end":639.607,"text":"我的意思是說這是柯總召他的認為我問你嘛 他的說法那你同意嗎那我還是回到在兩院在討論這些相關議題的時候我們還是希望能夠盡量的去協助團結權跟協商權罷工是很不得已是最後手段你知道政府要爛到一個程度罷工權才會處理我問你 你知道醫院已經有工會了你知道醫院有工會嗎那你擔心醫院會罷工嗎"},{"start":646.224,"end":665.442,"text":"這個上次我說那個盧媽媽的事情她叫盧媽媽你叫盧媽媽那你就回到家庭去服務就好了我問你說為了性平你好好在那個時候做一個宣傳這個性平那你也不肯你說你們總召做這個你們也不肯現在總召說這個會清台景霄的主公會也會清台"},{"start":666.343,"end":677.732,"text":"你也沒有態度喔?你怎麼這麼軟趴趴?你什麼都不敢講?你只敢罵我們家國昌喔?你只會罵這個國昌對不對?我不想講他的名字,他在去年審議宣的時候,他說他要保證三道讓國人有感啦!我問大家!"},{"start":689.454,"end":715.254,"text":"我們的總預算被這樣亂刪亂砍你有感的嗎你憤怒嗎我知道已經憤怒到都已經坐不住了對不對人民當然憤怒啊你把這個錢拿去開演唱會拿去裝潢豪華的辦公室人民當然憤怒啊所以這個我覺得部長我再跟你最後講一句話我禮拜一進去行政院的時候因為卓院長說這一次的這是我面對這個"},{"start":717.075,"end":739.082,"text":"關稅的海嘯我們有很多事要立法院配合不是只有關稅部分有很多非關稅貿易障礙的部分還有一些法規要鬆綁他希望我們配合我跟他講了一句話我說好你要大家配合那你現在不要搞這個你再搞大罷免這個部分那如果說民間團體我們尊重他立法院我們尊重他但是行政官員你現在要立法院配合啊"},{"start":739.622,"end":761.061,"text":"那我可不可以勸你一句話你聽聽看因為我也跟左院長這樣講的可不可以行政官員行政人員不要上台不要去上大罷免的舞台去高談闊論發佈假訊息你可以嗎你可以嗎你做得到嗎我這樣跟左院長講的第一個事情是這個罷免與否跟行政部門的關聯比較不大那你上台啦"},{"start":763.462,"end":769.164,"text":"我上面講我其實是復述黃委員的說法因為這個保證三道讓國人有感這是他講的話國難當前我剛剛就跟你講你要拿公務預算去補一個公務人員亂花的錢這個錢不砍怎麼行啊所以我還是要強調關於審計的部分我們必須尊重也依照審計的結果還有相關的規範來去做辦理"},{"start":787.93,"end":795.423,"text":"好啦部長謝謝你要記得你是勞動部部長不要動不著跟我說病院病院兩個人一起談你都沒有自己態度這樣行不行部長你自己要記得勞動部長好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":177,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時28分）謝謝主席。有請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。川普的關稅海嘯即將來襲，就你目前掌握，哪一些產業的勞工會受到最嚴重的衝擊？你手邊有這樣的評估嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：因為目前美方提供的相關資訊陸陸續續都還有一些新的，我想大家也都知道。"],["陳委員昭姿：目前還沒有具體的應變措施？"],["洪部長申翰：不是！當然有。我剛才講的是，因為美方相關的作法還陸陸續續在提供一些新的資訊，但我們目前認為確實來自一些傳統產業，尤其是出口的製造業，可能會受到的影響比較重。比方機械、汽車零組件，包括橡膠、塑膠、石化、水五金等等，我們其實重點在關注這些產業的勞工。"],["陳委員昭姿：希望你的政策能夠讓勞工比較安心，但是我也要說現在已經有企業開始裁員、停工、放無薪假了，你知道這件事嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們其實最近在媒體上有看到……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們在野黨的立委都收到很多……"],["洪部長申翰：有看到這些事情，我們現在把通報的機制建立起來，包括這些資訊的回報機制，目前從媒體上聽聞的，我們也會打電話過去，跟他們主動了解實際的狀況會如何，最快速地掌握這些訊息。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我的目的是告訴你，星期一我也一起到行政院跟卓院長共商國事，因為本黨的立場非常清楚，我們一定是國家利益高於政黨利益，面對這個難關，大家一起來度過，如果為了因應這個關稅的衝擊，假設勞動部有任何特別預算要提出來，我們覺得只要是合理而且預期有效，我們一定支持，好嗎？我就先告訴部長。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝在野黨。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我們還是要回到今天你的報告主題：就業安定基金，你現在大概在善後，我相信你會很頭大，我不曉得你睡不睡得著覺，當然總統用了一句不太恰當的話：至少我們還有音樂！不過，你知道現在音樂會不能再用就業安定基金來處理了，部長，是不是？以後就業安定基金不可以用在這個只有……"],["洪部長申翰：我們會把就業安定基金的用途做出更清楚的規範。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，我現在想請教你，因為剛剛幾個部會首長都報告了，許前部長的演唱會會議紀錄曝光，它的法律依據竟然就是提升勞工福祉那個部分，審計部也揪出前五年就業安定基金違法的部分大概有7,224萬是不符合的，他們用的是「關聯性不高」，而關聯性不高就是不符合法定用途，對嗎？不符合法定用途嗎？關聯性不高，不符合嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，審計部的報告最後的判定是關聯性不高，應予以修正收回，但是否違法，這部分還是需要由司法單位去做確認。"],["陳委員昭姿：等一下，你的意思是說不符合法定用途就不等於違法？你這個邏輯人民可以接受嗎？不符合法定的用途就不等於違法？你這個邏輯大家可以接受嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員，我要說的是，審計部的判定是關聯性不高，當然它是跟就安基金的法定用途去做對照，認為關聯性不高，但是否是違法使用、是否有違法營私、是否有人謀不臧這樣的違法，這部分當然是另外一個層次。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我繼續請教你，七千多萬被亂花了，只需要修正，那你要怎麼究責？目前我要看到的不是修正的部分，因為這是確定的部分，有關究責的部分，因為你說這個是「歸納科目不當」，這個很離譜，我覺得這是玩文字遊戲，早期蔡英文總統的專機明明就是走私，卻說是超買，你現在把這個東西說是歸納科目不當，意思是說，如果用就業安定基金辦演唱會不行，我們換個名目就行了嗎？你的意思就變這樣啊！這是歸納的名目不當。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員，你用的應該是我在臉書上面寫的……"],["陳委員昭姿：對，你自己寫的。"],["洪部長申翰：我上面的說明是說明什麼叫做修正、修正的意思是什麼，所以我這句話的意思是如果被判定修正的話，過去可能會有哪些的樣態，歸納科目不當是其中一種樣態，我整個完整的句子是這樣的敘述。"],["陳委員昭姿：我也有繼續看，你講了一句是你要先向行政院爭取編列明年的公務預算來歸還就業安定基金，這個很離譜耶！意思是勞動部亂花人民的納稅錢，你現在要叫人民的納稅錢再挖一筆錢來補這個洞，這樣對嗎？這樣對嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員，我向你說明……"],["陳委員昭姿：這個預算能不砍嗎？你先亂花了一筆人民的錢，現在叫人民的納稅錢再來補這個洞，這是你的建議。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員，我向你說明，第一個，勞動部是一個行政部門，我們必須要尊重、也依照審計部的審計結果以及相關規範來辦理，過去如果有被判定為修正減列並收回的話，編列公務預算歸墊是作法之一，被判定為修正減列要追回，編列公務預算歸墊是作法之一，我是一個行政部門，就必須要依照審計的審計結果跟審計的規範來進行。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我們還有別的方法，你現在說明的，但人民能不能接受？我們來談預算法第二十五條，政府不得於預算所定外，動用公款，有違背前項規定之支出，應該依民法的規定請求返還。我現在要請教你，勞動部有沒有對許銘春、謝宜容提告？這是預算法的規定。"],["洪部長申翰：跟陳委員說明，我們接下來……因為我知道大家很關心，比方說決策者的責任，對不對？"],["陳委員昭姿：你先說你有沒有打算提告？"],["洪部長申翰：大家關心決策者的責任，目前關於追究責任的部分，我們會配合檢調跟司法的結果來追究。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你又來了！檢調追查的是圖利貪污的刑事責任，我現在談的是根據預算法的民事責任，這個是兩件事，請你要先分開。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：根據預算法，你可以去打民事官司討回來，你不要什麼事都丟皮球給檢調，檢調辦的是刑事的。"],["洪部長申翰：我沒有丟皮球給檢調。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以我請問勞動部，你有沒有要對許銘春、謝宜容提告？什麼時候提告？"],["洪部長申翰：我們相關的責任追究，目前檢調跟司法都在辦……"],["陳委員昭姿：你又在講檢調了……"],["洪部長申翰：我們會配合檢調跟司法的結果去做追究。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你就是不想按照預算法來處理民事行政的部分，看來你是不會做這個提告，你還是要納稅人的錢來補洞。","下一題，我問你警消組工會，你在上一屆跟本屆立委的時候都有連署支持警消組工會的法案，我想問你，你現在立場還一樣嗎？部長，因為你簽署過，你的立場還一樣嗎？你不要跟我說時空背景不同，你最新的一份是去年5月，不到一年，沒有時空背景不同的問題。"],["洪部長申翰：跟陳委員說明，其實針對相關組工會的問題，目前我們當然就是兩院在做討論，目前考試院會是以公務人員協會法的方式來處理團結權。"],["陳委員昭姿：工會法是你管的，工會法……"],["洪部長申翰：是，但是我說這一個議題是兩院在討論，目前在行政院跟考試院……"],["陳委員昭姿：你現在是勞動部長，因為工會法是你管的，我可以問你的態度，你的態度是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：這個議題是兩院在討論，目前考試院還是希望用協會法去處理……"],["陳委員昭姿：我現在是說工會法，不是考試院管的……"],["洪部長申翰：包括警消跟公務員的團結權跟協商權。"],["陳委員昭姿：你擔心罷工權，對不對？你是擔心罷工權嗎？當初你連署，我現在問你一件事，老師可不可以組工會？教師可以組工會？"],["洪部長申翰：現在的教師是可以組工會的。"],["陳委員昭姿：教師沒有罷工權嘛！對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：現在是。"],["陳委員昭姿：組工會跟罷工權是可以討論的，第一個層次是你要不要讓他組工會。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：然後再來才是說你要有哪些權利，你的態度是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：所以我跟陳委員說明，在這個議題上面，兩院目前的討論是希望用協會法……"],["陳委員昭姿：你是勞動部，你一直跟我說兩院，工會法是你在管啊，你的態度……"],["洪部長申翰：是，但是我是兩院的成員之一。"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有，你就代表勞動部去談這件事啊！"],["洪部長申翰：對，但是我的意思是說……"],["陳委員昭姿：我這樣講可不可以？如果不給予警消罷工權，你同意他們組工會嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員，目前確實兩院在商量、討論這件事情時，目前還是以公務人員協會法……"],["陳委員昭姿：好啦！你現在不當勞動部長，就是併院的部長了。好，那我問你，你們家柯總召說警消組工會會造成中共侵臺，你同意嗎？你同意嗎？寫得很清楚，他說的，你同意嗎？你就告訴我，你同意這個說法嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我尊重柯總召的……"],["陳委員昭姿：你尊重他的說法？"],["洪部長申翰：尊重！"],["陳委員昭姿：他這種抹紅基層警消員工、抹紅他們，你還是在打擊工會存在的意義？你尊重他的說法？"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員，我的意思是說，這是柯總召他的認為……"],["陳委員昭姿：我問你嘛！他的說法，你同意嗎？你認同嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我還是回到兩院在討論這些相關議題的時候，我們還是希望能夠儘量去協助團結權跟協商權……"],["陳委員昭姿：你知道罷工是很不得已、是最後手段，你知道政府要爛到一個程度，罷工權才會啟動，我問你，你知不知道醫院已經有工會了，你知道醫院有工會嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["陳委員昭姿：那你擔心醫院會罷工嗎？對不對？上次我說那個盧媽媽的事情，他叫盧媽媽回歸家庭去服務就好了，我問你說為了性平，你好好在那個時候做一個宣傳，你也不肯，你們總召說這些，你們也不肯……現在總召說警消組工會也會侵臺，你也沒有態度喔？你怎麼這麼軟趴趴的，你什麼都不敢講，你只敢罵我們家國昌喔？來、來，你只會罵國昌，對不對？","（播放影片）"],["陳委員昭姿：人民當然憤怒啊！你把這個錢拿去開演唱會、拿去裝潢豪華辦公室，人民當然憤怒啊！","部長，我再跟你最後講一句話，我禮拜一去行政院的時候，因為卓院長說這一次面對關稅的海嘯有很多部分需要立法院配合，不是只有關稅部分，有很多非關稅貿易障礙的部分，還有一些法規要鬆綁，他希望我們配合。我跟他講了一句話，我說好，你要大家配合，但你現在搞這個大罷免的部分，如果是民間團體發起的，我們尊重，立法委員尊重他們，但是行政官員的部分，你現在要立法院配合啊，我可不可以勸你一句話，你聽聽看，因為我也跟卓院長這樣講的，可不可以請行政官員、行政人員不要去大罷免的舞臺上高談闊論、發布假訊息，你可以嗎？你可以嗎？你做得到嗎？我這樣跟卓院長講了耶！"],["洪部長申翰：我想第一個事情是罷免與否跟行政部門的關聯比較不大，包括……"],["陳委員昭姿：但你上臺了啊！"],["洪部長申翰：我上去講其實是複述黃委員的說法……"],["陳委員昭姿：現在因為國難當前！"],["洪部長申翰：因為保證刪到讓國人有感是他講的話。"],["陳委員昭姿：國難當前！我剛剛就跟你講，你要拿公務預算去補一個公務人員亂花的錢，這個錢不砍怎麼行啊！所以……"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員，我還是要強調，關於審計的部分，我們必須尊重，也依照審計的結果及相關的規範去做辦理。"],["陳委員昭姿：好啦，部長，謝謝，你要記得你是勞動部部長，不要動輒就跟我說併院、併院，兩院一起談，你都沒有自己的態度，這樣怎麼行！部長，你要記得自己是勞動部長！謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長。","我們都說尊重某某人的發言啦，但是不同意他的看法，我們大部分都這樣講。","請林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","盧縣一","洪孟楷","王正旭","黃秀芳","陳瑩","劉建國","廖先翔","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱若華","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00005"}}}