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\"text\": \"主要是這個用途我講的是比例因為這個落差很大所以有沒有在這次的救安基金檢討中我認為事實上是要一併討論去檢討因為這個落差比例因為畢竟事實上當初安基費那怎麼去促進外國移工在台灣的一些的相關的措施是不是應該我現在看到經費事實上是落差蠻大的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 428.74, \"end\": 428.86, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 428.86, \"end\": 429.02, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 429.02, \"end\": 429.321, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 429.321, \"end\": 429.461, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"途\", \"start\": 429.461, \"end\": 429.561, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 429.561, \"end\": 429.681, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 429.681, \"end\": 429.981, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 429.981, \"end\": 430.161, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 430.161, \"end\": 430.362, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 430.362, \"end\": 430.842, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 430.842, \"end\": 431.362, 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00:01:16,168\n甚至去年11月還爆發出我們的就業安定基金使用的一個爭議所以就想問就是因為就業安定基金這個所謂提到遭受濫用這個姿勢體大所以部長你在去年12月26號上任的時候也召開了就業安定基金的管理會提出了討論幾天後在今年的1月3號就提出了三面六向\n\n4\n00:01:17,043 --> 00:01:33,533\n策進作為所以想問部長這三面六策進作為的政策宣示提出來至今大概三個月了那你這個落實狀況是如何好跟林議員說明目前其實現在這個三面六作為其實\n\n5\n00:01:34,514 --> 00:02:02,305\n我們正在執行這是現在進行式那也包括這個我剛才說到我們會合理的來跟行政院來爭取編列公務預算這其實也是這次很多救安基金使用爭議的一個源頭那這部分我們也跟行政院在做討論了那也包括綠定用途使用範圍包括我們在收支管理辦法裡面這個過去大家覺得有部分的項目比方說裡面有一個第12款其他\n\n6\n00:02:02,645 --> 00:02:29,128\n大家覺得這好像過寬我們也會把這其他這一款直接給修掉讓他的範圍的規定能夠更加的清楚那包括這裡面其實我們目前其實也針對救安基金的支用的原則這些目前都已經已經相關的草擬已經訂定出來所以這些都是在進行中的工作那我們就一定會照這個往前走部長大概什麼時候因為現在監會\n\n7\n00:02:30,285 --> 00:02:45,312\n安排這個樣子的議題因為從去年發生到現在那你這些的測驗作為看起來事實上是蠻具體的那大概什麼時候可以有一個讓國人比較安心的一個成效你自己預估\n\n8\n00:02:50,312 --> 00:03:12,703\n現在我們這些相關的法規命令的修訂應該目前都在修訂中應該這一兩個月應該就會年終之後應該就會完全所以這個會期大概就已經會有些具體的修訂完成我們目前在宣導品的正法管理原則還有救安基金的審議要點目前都已經訂定完成\n\n9\n00:03:13,283 --> 00:03:22,912\n那還有應該是還有包括像剛剛說的這個收支管理運用辦法跟這個志願原則因為這個要抱怨所以這其實也在程序中\n\n10\n00:03:23,789 --> 00:03:35,913\n所以未來所謂增加公開資訊這些東西都會羅列成這已經進行了甚至都已經在救安基金的管理會裡面之前都已經納入討論了就是已經拿資訊公開來討論了那審計部也因為這樣針對109年到113年這5年當中的救安基金的張冊查帳結果認為勞動部過去5年運用拍形象影片然後經營臉書\n\n11\n00:03:54,008 --> 00:04:17,308\n還有呢辦理僑親活動跟發春節的紅包跟購物購三節禮這些都不屬於救安基金的法定用途可是實際上各部會也都會去因為我們還是要讓人家知道說我們到底做了什麼事情一定也會有所謂的臉書粉專和我們的形象的影片製作只是他認為是現在不屬於放在救安基金那\n\n12\n00:04:18,700 --> 00:04:37,181\n就要來問因為要填補這個五年7224萬的基金缺口有人指控就是說這是全民買單可是我說剛剛講其他部會也應該辦只是今天放的項目不同所以我不知道部長對這個事情你的看法是什麼\n\n13\n00:04:38,395 --> 00:05:03,497\n跟林委員說明因為確實現在審計部在3月21號給我們相關的判定是認為這7000多萬過去在救安基金的支用和救安基金的用途的關聯不高希望我們修正跟收回那我們也必須遵照審計的這個結果來辦理那過去被判定修正減劣跟收回其實當然編列公務運算規定是做法之一\n\n14\n00:05:04,878 --> 00:05:18,952\n那但是我覺得具體的做法當然我們也願意再跟主計跟審計來去做討論那可是我說因為勞動部是一個行政部門其實我們有義務要遵照審計部審計的結果跟規範來去\n\n15\n00:05:23,618 --> 00:05:44,213\n做不管是做回應也好或者是依照這個來做相關的作為也好我們是一個行政部門我們有義務要來這樣做可是具體的作為還有沒有更多可能性當然這部分我們可以再來我們願意來跟審計部主計來做討論但是編列公務預算規定是過去在處理這些相關問題裡面的做法之一\n\n16\n00:05:48,315 --> 00:06:03,801\n救安基金事實上收入百分之八十是來自移工雇主每月按照繳納的救安安定費就安定費剩下的就是基金的支息所以法定用途是在促進國民就業跟提升勞工福祉\n\n17\n00:06:06,124 --> 00:06:25,022\n在處理有關外國人聘僱的這些事務上所以想問郝部長在基金運用上有13.43%用在本來政府應該負擔的移工、聘僱跟管理的行政支柱可是86.57%是用在本國\n\n18\n00:06:29,248 --> 00:06:49,400\n勞工跟企業主的各項補助的還要紓困上所以對於移工的雇主跟本國勞工跟企業主採取兩套的運用的邏輯所以想問部長這個是合理的嗎我想其實那時候在訂定救護法的時候為什麼會把促進國民就業納入在法定的自用的用途裡面其中一個原因就是認為\n\n19\n00:06:50,260 --> 00:07:07,839\n其實移工的一些聘僱可能會對本國的就業市場也會產生一些影響所以從移工的聘僱的過程裡面有收取到的救安費也用在其實協助本國勞工的就業促進上面主要是這個\n\n20\n00:07:08,740 --> 00:07:31,241\n主要是這個用途我講的是比例因為這個落差很大所以有沒有在這次的救安基金檢討中我認為事實上是要一併討論去檢討因為這個落差比例因為畢竟事實上當初安基費那怎麼去促進外國移工在台灣的一些的相關的措施是不是應該我現在看到經費事實上是落差蠻大的\n\n21\n00:07:31,963 --> 00:07:55,168\n所以應該要去做考量那在過去2008年到2010年的金融海嘯也好或者是2019到2022的疫情期間都動用救安基金來做產業的紓困跟就業促進甚至包括衛福部的長照的喘息服務跟我們疫情期間的移工的檢疫跟移民署非法滯留移工子女的遣返的經費\n\n22\n00:07:56,408 --> 00:08:21,822\n甚至有學者說是不是應該要用救安基金來貼補我們的照顧育嬰津貼所以想問部長救安基金應該不是政府的就是說應該不但是政府的小金櫃可是也是救火隊因為有時候有需求像疫情來了紓困甚至要怎麼去促進這疫情期間的就業所以動之救安基金提案的理由就是會五發八門所以來自\n\n23\n00:08:24,191 --> 00:08:52,290\n政府各部會甚至來自民間的倡議所以部長說如何確保救安基金的管理會面對這些提案的時候能夠抵抗各界的期待跟壓力來秉持做出比較好的判斷就像委員現在其實列出來你列出右邊的這個圖的第五條這應該就是我們的收支保管運用辦法我們其實這一次的修訂裡面會把現在裡面有一個第十二我們會直接把這個其他有關支出給刪掉\n\n24\n00:08:54,093 --> 00:09:15,773\n我們會把這個直接給刪掉也就是說大家覺得可能過去這部分會不會口袋太大了或者太有彈性了我們會直接把這個刪掉所以我們接下來是希望就按經驗之用應該要更密切的來跟剛剛那三項包括促進國民就業包括提供勞工福祉也包括外國人聘股管理相關的業務所需更緊密的確認連結\n\n25\n00:09:17,074 --> 00:09:32,088\n所以我們會在收支管理用辦法上面來去強化這部分的連結比較能夠去確認救安基金的使用不會超出這個法定的用途之外這部分我們又會用機制上面或者是這些相關的辦法來去確認這件事情\n\n26\n00:09:34,012 --> 00:09:59,923\n所以最後本席還是希望救安基金對外國勞工跟僱主的分配使用上還是需要考慮到合理性公平性而且希望勞動部是不是可以釐清我們救安基金的支出範圍避免腐爛他制度上保護救安基金的管理的時候可能就是要獨立行使的職權來抗拒壓力所以能夠完備救安基金的整個管理的法制作業來獻起達標再麻煩部長謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9345\t11247\t主席麻煩我們的勞動部部長議員早部長早就業安定基金在113年底 大規模大概就是350億元那的確110年到112年這三年是因為疫情比較動用這些來做紓困跟促進就業\n38755\t47435\t的措施所以產生赤字那不過整體來看的話就安定基金的收入事實上是逐年成長的可是支出也是逐年成長\n47987\t76168\t甚至去年11月還爆發出我們的就業安定基金使用的一個爭議所以就想問就是因為就業安定基金這個所謂提到遭受濫用這個姿勢體大所以部長你在去年12月26號上任的時候也召開了就業安定基金的管理會提出了討論幾天後在今年的1月3號就提出了三面六向\n77043\t93533\t策進作為 所以想問部長這三面六策進作為的政策宣示提出來至今大概三個月了那你這個落實狀況是如何好 跟林議員說明 目前其實現在這個三面六作為其實\n94514\t122305\t我們正在執行這是現在進行式那也包括這個我剛才說到我們會合理的來跟行政院來爭取編列公務預算這其實也是這次很多救安基金使用爭議的一個源頭那這部分我們也跟行政院在做討論了那也包括綠定用途使用範圍包括我們在收支管理辦法裡面這個過去大家覺得有部分的項目比方說裡面有一個第12款其他\n122645\t149128\t大家覺得這好像過寬我們也會把這其他這一款直接給修掉讓他的範圍的規定能夠更加的清楚那包括這裡面其實我們目前其實也針對救安基金的支用的原則這些目前都已經已經相關的草擬已經訂定出來所以這些都是在進行中的工作那我們就一定會照這個往前走部長大概什麼時候因為現在監會\n150285\t165312\t安排這個樣子的議題因為從去年發生到現在那你這些的測驗作為看起來事實上是蠻具體的那大概什麼時候可以有一個讓國人比較安心的一個成效你自己預估\n170312\t192703\t現在我們這些相關的法規命令的修訂應該目前都在修訂中應該這一兩個月應該就會年終之後應該就會完全所以這個會期大概就已經會有些具體的修訂完成我們目前在宣導品的正法管理原則還有救安基金的審議要點目前都已經訂定完成\n193283\t202912\t那還有應該是還有包括像剛剛說的這個收支管理運用辦法跟這個志願原則因為這個要抱怨所以這其實也在程序中\n203789\t215913\t所以未來所謂增加公開資訊這些東西都會羅列成這已經進行了甚至都已經在救安基金的管理會裡面之前都已經納入討論了就是已經拿資訊公開來討論了那審計部也因為這樣針對109年到113年這5年當中的救安基金的張冊查帳結果認為勞動部過去5年運用拍形象影片然後經營臉書\n234008\t257308\t還有呢辦理僑親活動跟發春節的紅包跟購物購三節禮這些都不屬於救安基金的法定用途可是實際上各部會也都會去因為我們還是要讓人家知道說我們到底做了什麼事情一定也會有所謂的臉書粉專和我們的形象的影片製作只是他認為是現在不屬於放在救安基金那\n258700\t277181\t就要來問因為要填補這個五年7224萬的基金缺口有人指控就是說這是全民買單可是我說剛剛講其他部會也應該辦只是今天放的項目不同所以我不知道部長對這個事情你的看法是什麼\n278395\t303497\t跟林委員說明因為確實現在審計部在3月21號給我們相關的判定是認為這7000多萬過去在救安基金的支用和救安基金的用途的關聯不高希望我們修正跟收回那我們也必須遵照審計的這個結果來辦理那過去被判定修正減劣跟收回其實當然編列公務運算規定是做法之一\n304878\t318952\t那但是我覺得具體的做法當然我們也願意再跟主計跟審計來去做討論那可是我說因為勞動部是一個行政部門其實我們有義務要遵照審計部審計的結果跟規範來去\n323618\t344213\t做不管是做回應也好或者是依照這個來做相關的作為也好我們是一個行政部門我們有義務要來這樣做可是具體的作為還有沒有更多可能性當然這部分我們可以再來我們願意來跟審計部主計來做討論但是編列公務預算規定是過去在處理這些相關問題裡面的做法之一\n348315\t363801\t救安基金事實上收入百分之八十是來自移工雇主每月按照繳納的救安安定費就安定費 剩下的就是基金的支息所以法定用途是在促進國民就業跟提升勞工福祉\n366124\t385022\t在處理有關外國人聘僱的這些事務上所以想問郝部長在基金運用上有13.43%用在本來政府應該負擔的移工、聘僱跟管理的行政支柱可是86.57%是用在本國\n389248\t409400\t勞工跟企業主的各項補助的還要紓困上所以對於移工的雇主跟本國勞工跟企業主採取兩套的運用的邏輯所以想問部長這個是合理的嗎我想其實那時候在訂定救護法的時候為什麼會把促進國民就業納入在法定的自用的用途裡面其中一個原因就是認為\n410260\t427839\t其實移工的一些聘僱可能會對本國的就業市場也會產生一些影響所以從移工的聘僱的過程裡面有收取到的救安費也用在其實協助本國勞工的就業促進上面主要是這個\n428740\t451241\t主要是這個用途我講的是比例因為這個落差很大所以有沒有在這次的救安基金檢討中我認為事實上是要一併討論去檢討因為這個落差比例因為畢竟事實上當初安基費那怎麼去促進外國移工在台灣的一些的相關的措施是不是應該我現在看到經費事實上是落差蠻大的\n451963\t475168\t所以應該要去做考量那在過去2008年到2010年的金融海嘯也好或者是2019到2022的疫情期間都動用救安基金來做產業的紓困跟就業促進甚至包括衛福部的長照的喘息服務跟我們疫情期間的移工的檢疫跟移民署非法滯留移工子女的遣返的經費\n476408\t501822\t甚至有學者說是不是應該要用救安基金來貼補我們的照顧育嬰津貼所以想問部長救安基金應該不是政府的就是說應該不但是政府的小金櫃可是也是救火隊因為有時候有需求像疫情來了紓困甚至要怎麼去促進這疫情期間的就業所以動之救安基金提案的理由就是會五發八門所以來自\n504191\t532290\t政府各部會甚至來自民間的倡議所以部長說如何確保救安基金的管理會面對這些提案的時候能夠抵抗各界的期待跟壓力來秉持做出比較好的判斷就像委員現在其實列出來你列出右邊的這個圖的第五條這應該就是我們的收支保管運用辦法我們其實這一次的修訂裡面會把現在裡面有一個第十二我們會直接把這個其他有關支出給刪掉\n534093\t555773\t我們會把這個直接給刪掉也就是說大家覺得可能過去這部分會不會口袋太大了或者太有彈性了我們會直接把這個刪掉所以我們接下來是希望就按經驗之用應該要更密切的來跟剛剛那三項包括促進國民就業包括提供勞工福祉也包括外國人聘股管理相關的業務所需更緊密的確認連結\n557074\t572088\t所以我們會在收支管理用辦法上面來去強化這部分的連結比較能夠去確認救安基金的使用不會超出這個法定的用途之外這部分我們又會用機制上面或者是這些相關的辦法來去確認這件事情\n574012\t599923\t所以最後本席還是希望救安基金對外國勞工跟僱主的分配使用上還是需要考慮到合理性公平性而且希望勞動部是不是可以釐清我們救安基金的支出範圍避免腐爛他制度上保護救安基金的管理的時候可能就是要獨立行使的職權來抗拒壓力所以能夠完備救安基金的整個管理的法制作業來獻起達標再麻煩部長 謝謝\n604514\t604838\t謝謝\n","txt":"主席麻煩我們的勞動部部長議員早部長早就業安定基金在113年底 大規模大概就是350億元那的確110年到112年這三年是因為疫情比較動用這些來做紓困跟促進就業\n的措施所以產生赤字那不過整體來看的話就安定基金的收入事實上是逐年成長的可是支出也是逐年成長\n甚至去年11月還爆發出我們的就業安定基金使用的一個爭議所以就想問就是因為就業安定基金這個所謂提到遭受濫用這個姿勢體大所以部長你在去年12月26號上任的時候也召開了就業安定基金的管理會提出了討論幾天後在今年的1月3號就提出了三面六向\n策進作為 所以想問部長這三面六策進作為的政策宣示提出來至今大概三個月了那你這個落實狀況是如何好 跟林議員說明 目前其實現在這個三面六作為其實\n我們正在執行這是現在進行式那也包括這個我剛才說到我們會合理的來跟行政院來爭取編列公務預算這其實也是這次很多救安基金使用爭議的一個源頭那這部分我們也跟行政院在做討論了那也包括綠定用途使用範圍包括我們在收支管理辦法裡面這個過去大家覺得有部分的項目比方說裡面有一個第12款其他\n大家覺得這好像過寬我們也會把這其他這一款直接給修掉讓他的範圍的規定能夠更加的清楚那包括這裡面其實我們目前其實也針對救安基金的支用的原則這些目前都已經已經相關的草擬已經訂定出來所以這些都是在進行中的工作那我們就一定會照這個往前走部長大概什麼時候因為現在監會\n安排這個樣子的議題因為從去年發生到現在那你這些的測驗作為看起來事實上是蠻具體的那大概什麼時候可以有一個讓國人比較安心的一個成效你自己預估\n現在我們這些相關的法規命令的修訂應該目前都在修訂中應該這一兩個月應該就會年終之後應該就會完全所以這個會期大概就已經會有些具體的修訂完成我們目前在宣導品的正法管理原則還有救安基金的審議要點目前都已經訂定完成\n那還有應該是還有包括像剛剛說的這個收支管理運用辦法跟這個志願原則因為這個要抱怨所以這其實也在程序中\n所以未來所謂增加公開資訊這些東西都會羅列成這已經進行了甚至都已經在救安基金的管理會裡面之前都已經納入討論了就是已經拿資訊公開來討論了那審計部也因為這樣針對109年到113年這5年當中的救安基金的張冊查帳結果認為勞動部過去5年運用拍形象影片然後經營臉書\n還有呢辦理僑親活動跟發春節的紅包跟購物購三節禮這些都不屬於救安基金的法定用途可是實際上各部會也都會去因為我們還是要讓人家知道說我們到底做了什麼事情一定也會有所謂的臉書粉專和我們的形象的影片製作只是他認為是現在不屬於放在救安基金那\n就要來問因為要填補這個五年7224萬的基金缺口有人指控就是說這是全民買單可是我說剛剛講其他部會也應該辦只是今天放的項目不同所以我不知道部長對這個事情你的看法是什麼\n跟林委員說明因為確實現在審計部在3月21號給我們相關的判定是認為這7000多萬過去在救安基金的支用和救安基金的用途的關聯不高希望我們修正跟收回那我們也必須遵照審計的這個結果來辦理那過去被判定修正減劣跟收回其實當然編列公務運算規定是做法之一\n那但是我覺得具體的做法當然我們也願意再跟主計跟審計來去做討論那可是我說因為勞動部是一個行政部門其實我們有義務要遵照審計部審計的結果跟規範來去\n做不管是做回應也好或者是依照這個來做相關的作為也好我們是一個行政部門我們有義務要來這樣做可是具體的作為還有沒有更多可能性當然這部分我們可以再來我們願意來跟審計部主計來做討論但是編列公務預算規定是過去在處理這些相關問題裡面的做法之一\n救安基金事實上收入百分之八十是來自移工雇主每月按照繳納的救安安定費就安定費 剩下的就是基金的支息所以法定用途是在促進國民就業跟提升勞工福祉\n在處理有關外國人聘僱的這些事務上所以想問郝部長在基金運用上有13.43%用在本來政府應該負擔的移工、聘僱跟管理的行政支柱可是86.57%是用在本國\n勞工跟企業主的各項補助的還要紓困上所以對於移工的雇主跟本國勞工跟企業主採取兩套的運用的邏輯所以想問部長這個是合理的嗎我想其實那時候在訂定救護法的時候為什麼會把促進國民就業納入在法定的自用的用途裡面其中一個原因就是認為\n其實移工的一些聘僱可能會對本國的就業市場也會產生一些影響所以從移工的聘僱的過程裡面有收取到的救安費也用在其實協助本國勞工的就業促進上面主要是這個\n主要是這個用途我講的是比例因為這個落差很大所以有沒有在這次的救安基金檢討中我認為事實上是要一併討論去檢討因為這個落差比例因為畢竟事實上當初安基費那怎麼去促進外國移工在台灣的一些的相關的措施是不是應該我現在看到經費事實上是落差蠻大的\n所以應該要去做考量那在過去2008年到2010年的金融海嘯也好或者是2019到2022的疫情期間都動用救安基金來做產業的紓困跟就業促進甚至包括衛福部的長照的喘息服務跟我們疫情期間的移工的檢疫跟移民署非法滯留移工子女的遣返的經費\n甚至有學者說是不是應該要用救安基金來貼補我們的照顧育嬰津貼所以想問部長救安基金應該不是政府的就是說應該不但是政府的小金櫃可是也是救火隊因為有時候有需求像疫情來了紓困甚至要怎麼去促進這疫情期間的就業所以動之救安基金提案的理由就是會五發八門所以來自\n政府各部會甚至來自民間的倡議所以部長說如何確保救安基金的管理會面對這些提案的時候能夠抵抗各界的期待跟壓力來秉持做出比較好的判斷就像委員現在其實列出來你列出右邊的這個圖的第五條這應該就是我們的收支保管運用辦法我們其實這一次的修訂裡面會把現在裡面有一個第十二我們會直接把這個其他有關支出給刪掉\n我們會把這個直接給刪掉也就是說大家覺得可能過去這部分會不會口袋太大了或者太有彈性了我們會直接把這個刪掉所以我們接下來是希望就按經驗之用應該要更密切的來跟剛剛那三項包括促進國民就業包括提供勞工福祉也包括外國人聘股管理相關的業務所需更緊密的確認連結\n所以我們會在收支管理用辦法上面來去強化這部分的連結比較能夠去確認救安基金的使用不會超出這個法定的用途之外這部分我們又會用機制上面或者是這些相關的辦法來去確認這件事情\n所以最後本席還是希望救安基金對外國勞工跟僱主的分配使用上還是需要考慮到合理性公平性而且希望勞動部是不是可以釐清我們救安基金的支出範圍避免腐爛他制度上保護救安基金的管理的時候可能就是要獨立行使的職權來抗拒壓力所以能夠完備救安基金的整個管理的法制作業來獻起達標再麻煩部長 謝謝\n謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.345 --> 00:11.247\n主席麻煩我們的勞動部部長議員早部長早就業安定基金在113年底大規模大概就是350億元那的確110年到112年這三年是因為疫情比較動用這些來做紓困跟促進就業\n\n00:38.755 --> 00:47.435\n的措施所以產生赤字那不過整體來看的話就安定基金的收入事實上是逐年成長的可是支出也是逐年成長\n\n00:47.987 --> 01:16.168\n甚至去年11月還爆發出我們的就業安定基金使用的一個爭議所以就想問就是因為就業安定基金這個所謂提到遭受濫用這個姿勢體大所以部長你在去年12月26號上任的時候也召開了就業安定基金的管理會提出了討論幾天後在今年的1月3號就提出了三面六向\n\n01:17.043 --> 01:33.533\n策進作為所以想問部長這三面六策進作為的政策宣示提出來至今大概三個月了那你這個落實狀況是如何好跟林議員說明目前其實現在這個三面六作為其實\n\n01:34.514 --> 02:02.305\n我們正在執行這是現在進行式那也包括這個我剛才說到我們會合理的來跟行政院來爭取編列公務預算這其實也是這次很多救安基金使用爭議的一個源頭那這部分我們也跟行政院在做討論了那也包括綠定用途使用範圍包括我們在收支管理辦法裡面這個過去大家覺得有部分的項目比方說裡面有一個第12款其他\n\n02:02.645 --> 02:29.128\n大家覺得這好像過寬我們也會把這其他這一款直接給修掉讓他的範圍的規定能夠更加的清楚那包括這裡面其實我們目前其實也針對救安基金的支用的原則這些目前都已經已經相關的草擬已經訂定出來所以這些都是在進行中的工作那我們就一定會照這個往前走部長大概什麼時候因為現在監會\n\n02:30.285 --> 02:45.312\n安排這個樣子的議題因為從去年發生到現在那你這些的測驗作為看起來事實上是蠻具體的那大概什麼時候可以有一個讓國人比較安心的一個成效你自己預估\n\n02:50.312 --> 03:12.703\n現在我們這些相關的法規命令的修訂應該目前都在修訂中應該這一兩個月應該就會年終之後應該就會完全所以這個會期大概就已經會有些具體的修訂完成我們目前在宣導品的正法管理原則還有救安基金的審議要點目前都已經訂定完成\n\n03:13.283 --> 03:22.912\n那還有應該是還有包括像剛剛說的這個收支管理運用辦法跟這個志願原則因為這個要抱怨所以這其實也在程序中\n\n03:23.789 --> 03:35.913\n所以未來所謂增加公開資訊這些東西都會羅列成這已經進行了甚至都已經在救安基金的管理會裡面之前都已經納入討論了就是已經拿資訊公開來討論了那審計部也因為這樣針對109年到113年這5年當中的救安基金的張冊查帳結果認為勞動部過去5年運用拍形象影片然後經營臉書\n\n03:54.008 --> 04:17.308\n還有呢辦理僑親活動跟發春節的紅包跟購物購三節禮這些都不屬於救安基金的法定用途可是實際上各部會也都會去因為我們還是要讓人家知道說我們到底做了什麼事情一定也會有所謂的臉書粉專和我們的形象的影片製作只是他認為是現在不屬於放在救安基金那\n\n04:18.700 --> 04:37.181\n就要來問因為要填補這個五年7224萬的基金缺口有人指控就是說這是全民買單可是我說剛剛講其他部會也應該辦只是今天放的項目不同所以我不知道部長對這個事情你的看法是什麼\n\n04:38.395 --> 05:03.497\n跟林委員說明因為確實現在審計部在3月21號給我們相關的判定是認為這7000多萬過去在救安基金的支用和救安基金的用途的關聯不高希望我們修正跟收回那我們也必須遵照審計的這個結果來辦理那過去被判定修正減劣跟收回其實當然編列公務運算規定是做法之一\n\n05:04.878 --> 05:18.952\n那但是我覺得具體的做法當然我們也願意再跟主計跟審計來去做討論那可是我說因為勞動部是一個行政部門其實我們有義務要遵照審計部審計的結果跟規範來去\n\n05:23.618 --> 05:44.213\n做不管是做回應也好或者是依照這個來做相關的作為也好我們是一個行政部門我們有義務要來這樣做可是具體的作為還有沒有更多可能性當然這部分我們可以再來我們願意來跟審計部主計來做討論但是編列公務預算規定是過去在處理這些相關問題裡面的做法之一\n\n05:48.315 --> 06:03.801\n救安基金事實上收入百分之八十是來自移工雇主每月按照繳納的救安安定費就安定費剩下的就是基金的支息所以法定用途是在促進國民就業跟提升勞工福祉\n\n06:06.124 --> 06:25.022\n在處理有關外國人聘僱的這些事務上所以想問郝部長在基金運用上有13.43%用在本來政府應該負擔的移工、聘僱跟管理的行政支柱可是86.57%是用在本國\n\n06:29.248 --> 06:49.400\n勞工跟企業主的各項補助的還要紓困上所以對於移工的雇主跟本國勞工跟企業主採取兩套的運用的邏輯所以想問部長這個是合理的嗎我想其實那時候在訂定救護法的時候為什麼會把促進國民就業納入在法定的自用的用途裡面其中一個原因就是認為\n\n06:50.260 --> 07:07.839\n其實移工的一些聘僱可能會對本國的就業市場也會產生一些影響所以從移工的聘僱的過程裡面有收取到的救安費也用在其實協助本國勞工的就業促進上面主要是這個\n\n07:08.740 --> 07:31.241\n主要是這個用途我講的是比例因為這個落差很大所以有沒有在這次的救安基金檢討中我認為事實上是要一併討論去檢討因為這個落差比例因為畢竟事實上當初安基費那怎麼去促進外國移工在台灣的一些的相關的措施是不是應該我現在看到經費事實上是落差蠻大的\n\n07:31.963 --> 07:55.168\n所以應該要去做考量那在過去2008年到2010年的金融海嘯也好或者是2019到2022的疫情期間都動用救安基金來做產業的紓困跟就業促進甚至包括衛福部的長照的喘息服務跟我們疫情期間的移工的檢疫跟移民署非法滯留移工子女的遣返的經費\n\n07:56.408 --> 08:21.822\n甚至有學者說是不是應該要用救安基金來貼補我們的照顧育嬰津貼所以想問部長救安基金應該不是政府的就是說應該不但是政府的小金櫃可是也是救火隊因為有時候有需求像疫情來了紓困甚至要怎麼去促進這疫情期間的就業所以動之救安基金提案的理由就是會五發八門所以來自\n\n08:24.191 --> 08:52.290\n政府各部會甚至來自民間的倡議所以部長說如何確保救安基金的管理會面對這些提案的時候能夠抵抗各界的期待跟壓力來秉持做出比較好的判斷就像委員現在其實列出來你列出右邊的這個圖的第五條這應該就是我們的收支保管運用辦法我們其實這一次的修訂裡面會把現在裡面有一個第十二我們會直接把這個其他有關支出給刪掉\n\n08:54.093 --> 09:15.773\n我們會把這個直接給刪掉也就是說大家覺得可能過去這部分會不會口袋太大了或者太有彈性了我們會直接把這個刪掉所以我們接下來是希望就按經驗之用應該要更密切的來跟剛剛那三項包括促進國民就業包括提供勞工福祉也包括外國人聘股管理相關的業務所需更緊密的確認連結\n\n09:17.074 --> 09:32.088\n所以我們會在收支管理用辦法上面來去強化這部分的連結比較能夠去確認救安基金的使用不會超出這個法定的用途之外這部分我們又會用機制上面或者是這些相關的辦法來去確認這件事情\n\n09:34.012 --> 09:59.923\n所以最後本席還是希望救安基金對外國勞工跟僱主的分配使用上還是需要考慮到合理性公平性而且希望勞動部是不是可以釐清我們救安基金的支出範圍避免腐爛他制度上保護救安基金的管理的時候可能就是要獨立行使的職權來抗拒壓力所以能夠完備救安基金的整個管理的法制作業來獻起達標再麻煩部長謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.345,"end":11.247,"text":"主席麻煩我們的勞動部部長議員早部長早就業安定基金在113年底 大規模大概就是350億元那的確110年到112年這三年是因為疫情比較動用這些來做紓困跟促進就業"},{"start":38.755,"end":47.435,"text":"的措施所以產生赤字那不過整體來看的話就安定基金的收入事實上是逐年成長的可是支出也是逐年成長"},{"start":47.987,"end":76.168,"text":"甚至去年11月還爆發出我們的就業安定基金使用的一個爭議所以就想問就是因為就業安定基金這個所謂提到遭受濫用這個姿勢體大所以部長你在去年12月26號上任的時候也召開了就業安定基金的管理會提出了討論幾天後在今年的1月3號就提出了三面六向"},{"start":77.043,"end":93.533,"text":"策進作為 所以想問部長這三面六策進作為的政策宣示提出來至今大概三個月了那你這個落實狀況是如何好 跟林議員說明 目前其實現在這個三面六作為其實"},{"start":94.514,"end":122.305,"text":"我們正在執行這是現在進行式那也包括這個我剛才說到我們會合理的來跟行政院來爭取編列公務預算這其實也是這次很多救安基金使用爭議的一個源頭那這部分我們也跟行政院在做討論了那也包括綠定用途使用範圍包括我們在收支管理辦法裡面這個過去大家覺得有部分的項目比方說裡面有一個第12款其他"},{"start":122.645,"end":149.128,"text":"大家覺得這好像過寬我們也會把這其他這一款直接給修掉讓他的範圍的規定能夠更加的清楚那包括這裡面其實我們目前其實也針對救安基金的支用的原則這些目前都已經已經相關的草擬已經訂定出來所以這些都是在進行中的工作那我們就一定會照這個往前走部長大概什麼時候因為現在監會"},{"start":150.285,"end":165.312,"text":"安排這個樣子的議題因為從去年發生到現在那你這些的測驗作為看起來事實上是蠻具體的那大概什麼時候可以有一個讓國人比較安心的一個成效你自己預估"},{"start":170.312,"end":192.703,"text":"現在我們這些相關的法規命令的修訂應該目前都在修訂中應該這一兩個月應該就會年終之後應該就會完全所以這個會期大概就已經會有些具體的修訂完成我們目前在宣導品的正法管理原則還有救安基金的審議要點目前都已經訂定完成"},{"start":193.283,"end":202.912,"text":"那還有應該是還有包括像剛剛說的這個收支管理運用辦法跟這個志願原則因為這個要抱怨所以這其實也在程序中"},{"start":203.789,"end":215.913,"text":"所以未來所謂增加公開資訊這些東西都會羅列成這已經進行了甚至都已經在救安基金的管理會裡面之前都已經納入討論了就是已經拿資訊公開來討論了那審計部也因為這樣針對109年到113年這5年當中的救安基金的張冊查帳結果認為勞動部過去5年運用拍形象影片然後經營臉書"},{"start":234.008,"end":257.308,"text":"還有呢辦理僑親活動跟發春節的紅包跟購物購三節禮這些都不屬於救安基金的法定用途可是實際上各部會也都會去因為我們還是要讓人家知道說我們到底做了什麼事情一定也會有所謂的臉書粉專和我們的形象的影片製作只是他認為是現在不屬於放在救安基金那"},{"start":258.7,"end":277.181,"text":"就要來問因為要填補這個五年7224萬的基金缺口有人指控就是說這是全民買單可是我說剛剛講其他部會也應該辦只是今天放的項目不同所以我不知道部長對這個事情你的看法是什麼"},{"start":278.395,"end":303.497,"text":"跟林委員說明因為確實現在審計部在3月21號給我們相關的判定是認為這7000多萬過去在救安基金的支用和救安基金的用途的關聯不高希望我們修正跟收回那我們也必須遵照審計的這個結果來辦理那過去被判定修正減劣跟收回其實當然編列公務運算規定是做法之一"},{"start":304.878,"end":318.952,"text":"那但是我覺得具體的做法當然我們也願意再跟主計跟審計來去做討論那可是我說因為勞動部是一個行政部門其實我們有義務要遵照審計部審計的結果跟規範來去"},{"start":323.618,"end":344.213,"text":"做不管是做回應也好或者是依照這個來做相關的作為也好我們是一個行政部門我們有義務要來這樣做可是具體的作為還有沒有更多可能性當然這部分我們可以再來我們願意來跟審計部主計來做討論但是編列公務預算規定是過去在處理這些相關問題裡面的做法之一"},{"start":348.315,"end":363.801,"text":"救安基金事實上收入百分之八十是來自移工雇主每月按照繳納的救安安定費就安定費 剩下的就是基金的支息所以法定用途是在促進國民就業跟提升勞工福祉"},{"start":366.124,"end":385.022,"text":"在處理有關外國人聘僱的這些事務上所以想問郝部長在基金運用上有13.43%用在本來政府應該負擔的移工、聘僱跟管理的行政支柱可是86.57%是用在本國"},{"start":389.248,"end":409.4,"text":"勞工跟企業主的各項補助的還要紓困上所以對於移工的雇主跟本國勞工跟企業主採取兩套的運用的邏輯所以想問部長這個是合理的嗎我想其實那時候在訂定救護法的時候為什麼會把促進國民就業納入在法定的自用的用途裡面其中一個原因就是認為"},{"start":410.26,"end":427.839,"text":"其實移工的一些聘僱可能會對本國的就業市場也會產生一些影響所以從移工的聘僱的過程裡面有收取到的救安費也用在其實協助本國勞工的就業促進上面主要是這個"},{"start":428.74,"end":451.241,"text":"主要是這個用途我講的是比例因為這個落差很大所以有沒有在這次的救安基金檢討中我認為事實上是要一併討論去檢討因為這個落差比例因為畢竟事實上當初安基費那怎麼去促進外國移工在台灣的一些的相關的措施是不是應該我現在看到經費事實上是落差蠻大的"},{"start":451.963,"end":475.168,"text":"所以應該要去做考量那在過去2008年到2010年的金融海嘯也好或者是2019到2022的疫情期間都動用救安基金來做產業的紓困跟就業促進甚至包括衛福部的長照的喘息服務跟我們疫情期間的移工的檢疫跟移民署非法滯留移工子女的遣返的經費"},{"start":476.408,"end":501.822,"text":"甚至有學者說是不是應該要用救安基金來貼補我們的照顧育嬰津貼所以想問部長救安基金應該不是政府的就是說應該不但是政府的小金櫃可是也是救火隊因為有時候有需求像疫情來了紓困甚至要怎麼去促進這疫情期間的就業所以動之救安基金提案的理由就是會五發八門所以來自"},{"start":504.191,"end":532.29,"text":"政府各部會甚至來自民間的倡議所以部長說如何確保救安基金的管理會面對這些提案的時候能夠抵抗各界的期待跟壓力來秉持做出比較好的判斷就像委員現在其實列出來你列出右邊的這個圖的第五條這應該就是我們的收支保管運用辦法我們其實這一次的修訂裡面會把現在裡面有一個第十二我們會直接把這個其他有關支出給刪掉"},{"start":534.093,"end":555.773,"text":"我們會把這個直接給刪掉也就是說大家覺得可能過去這部分會不會口袋太大了或者太有彈性了我們會直接把這個刪掉所以我們接下來是希望就按經驗之用應該要更密切的來跟剛剛那三項包括促進國民就業包括提供勞工福祉也包括外國人聘股管理相關的業務所需更緊密的確認連結"},{"start":557.074,"end":572.088,"text":"所以我們會在收支管理用辦法上面來去強化這部分的連結比較能夠去確認救安基金的使用不會超出這個法定的用途之外這部分我們又會用機制上面或者是這些相關的辦法來去確認這件事情"},{"start":574.012,"end":599.923,"text":"所以最後本席還是希望救安基金對外國勞工跟僱主的分配使用上還是需要考慮到合理性公平性而且希望勞動部是不是可以釐清我們救安基金的支出範圍避免腐爛他制度上保護救安基金的管理的時候可能就是要獨立行使的職權來抗拒壓力所以能夠完備救安基金的整個管理的法制作業來獻起達標再麻煩部長 謝謝"},{"start":604.514,"end":604.838,"text":"謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":263,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時41分）主席，麻煩請勞動部部長。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員早。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。就業安定基金在113年底的規模大概是350億元，的確，110年到112年這三年因為疫情有動用這些來做紓困跟促進就業的措施，所以產生赤字。就整體來看的話，就業安定基金的收入事實上是逐年成長的，可是支出也是逐年成長，甚至去年11月還爆發出我們就業安定基金使用的爭議。因為就安基金所謂遭受濫用是茲事體大，所以部長在去年12月26號上任的時候也召開了就業安定基金管理會，提出了討論，幾天後，在今年1月3號就提出了3面6項策進作為，所以想問部長，這3面6項策進作為的政策宣示提出至今大概三個月了，到目前為止的落實狀況是如何？"],["洪部長申翰：跟林委員說明，其實這3面向6作為我們正在執行，這是現在進行式。包括我剛才說到我們會合理的跟行政院爭取編列公務預算，這其實也是這次很多就安基金使用爭議的一個源頭，這部分我們也跟行政院在做討論了；也包括律定用途範圍與支用原則，包括我們的收支管理辦法裡面，過去大家覺得有部分項目，比方說第十二款的「其他」，大家覺得好像過寬，我們也會把「其他」這一款直接給修掉，讓它的範圍的規定能夠更加清楚，這個部分，其實我們目前針對就安基金支用原則的相關草擬都已經訂定出來，所以這些都是在進行中的工作，我們就一定會照這個往前走。"],["林委員月琴：部長，大概什麼時候？今天會安排這樣的議題，就是因為從去年發生到現在，你的這些策進作為看起來事實上是滿具體的，你自己預估大概什麼時候可以有一個讓國人比較安心的成效？"],["洪部長申翰：現在這些相關法規命令的修訂，目前都正在修訂中，應該這一、兩個月就會……年中之後應該就會完全修訂。"],["林委員月琴：所以這個會期大概就已經會有些具體修訂完成的相關措施？"],["洪部長申翰：目前在宣導品贈發管理原則，還有就安基金審議要點，我們都已經訂定完成，還有包括像剛剛說的收支管理運用辦法跟支用原則，因為這個要報院，所以其實這個也在程序中。"],["林委員月琴：所以未來所謂增加公開資訊這些東西都會臚列上去？"],["洪部長申翰：這已經進行了，甚至之前在就安基金管理會裡面就已經都納入討論了，就是已經拿資訊公開來討論了。"],["林委員月琴：好。審計部也因為這樣就針對109年到113年這五年的就安基金帳冊進行查帳，結果認為勞動部過去五年運用就業安定基金拍形象影片、經營臉書粉絲團、辦理喬遷活動，以及發春節紅包袋及三節禮品等，這些都不屬於就安基金的法定用途，可是實際上各部會也都會去……因為還是要讓人家知道我們到底做了什麼事情，一定也會有所謂的臉書粉專和我們的形象影片製作，只是它認為這不屬於就安基金的用途。部長，因為要填補這五年7,224萬的基金缺口，有人指控這是全民買單，可是我剛剛有講了，其他部會也應該辦，只是今天放的項目不同，所以我不知道部長對這個事情的看法是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：跟林委員說明，確實審計部在3月21號給我們的判定是認為，過去這七千多萬在就安基金的支用與就安基金用途的關聯不高，希望我們修正跟收回，我們也必須遵照審計的這個結果來辦理。過去被判定修正減列跟收回，其實編列公務預算歸墊是作法之一，但是具體的作法我們也願意再跟主計、審計去做討論。因為勞動部是一個行政部門，我們有義務要遵照審計部審計的結果跟規範去做，不管是做回應也好，或者是做相關的作為也好，我們是一個行政部門，我們有義務要來這樣做，可是具體的作為還有沒有更多可能性，當然，這部分我們願意跟審計部、主計來做討論，但是編列公務預算歸墊是過去在處理這些相關問題裡面的作法之一。"],["林委員月琴：部長，就安基金的收入事實上有百分之八十是來自移工雇主每月所繳納的就業安定費，剩下的就是基金孳息，而其法定用途是在促進國民就業、提升勞工福祉及處理有關外國人聘僱管理事務，但是在基金的運用上，有13.43%用在本來政府應該負擔的移工聘僱管理的行政支出，可是86.57%是用在本國勞工跟企業主的各項補助及紓困，對於移工雇主跟本國勞工、企業主採行兩套運用的邏輯，想問部長這個合理嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：其實在訂定就服法的時候為什麼會把促進國民就業納入在法定支用的用途裡面，其中一個原因就是認為移工的一些聘僱可能對本國的就業市場也會產生一些影響，所以從移工的聘僱過程裡面有收取到的就安費也用在協助本國勞工的就業促進上面，主要是這個用途。"],["林委員月琴：部長，我講的是比例啦，因為這個落差很大，所以在這次就安基金的檢討中，我認為這個部分應該是要一併討論去檢討，因為這個比例落差很大，畢竟這個主要來源是安定費，怎麼去促進外國移工在臺灣的一些相關的措施是不是應該……否則我現在看到經費的落差是滿大的啦，所以我覺得這應該要去做考量。","過去2008年到2010年的金融海嘯也好，或者是2019年到2022年的疫情期間，都動用就安基金來做產業的紓困跟就業促進，甚至包括衛福部的長照喘息服務，以及我們在疫情期間的移工檢疫、移民署非法滯留移工子女遣返的經費，甚至也有學者說是不是應該要用就安基金來貼補我們的照顧育嬰津貼，所以想問部長，就安基金應該不是政府的，就是說，不但是政府的小金庫，可是也是救火隊，因為有時候有需求，像疫情來了要紓困，甚至要怎麼去促進疫情期間的就業等等，所以動支就安基金的提案理由就會五花八門，因為是來自政府各部會，甚至是來自民間的倡議，所以部長如何確保就安基金的管理會面對這些提案的時候，能夠抵抗各界的期待跟壓力，秉持做出比較好的判斷？"],["洪部長申翰：就像委員現在簡報上列出來的第五條，這個就是我們的收支保管運用辦法，其實在這一次的修訂裡面，我們會直接把現行的第十二款「其他有關支出」給刪掉，我們會把這個直接給刪掉。也就是大家覺得可能過去這部分會不會口開得太大了，或者太有彈性了，我們會直接把這個刪掉，所以我們接下來是希望就安基金的支用，應該要更密切的跟剛剛提到的那三項，包括促進國民就業，包括提供勞工福祉，也包括外國人聘僱管理相關業務所需，更緊密的確認連結。所以我們會在收支管理運用辦法上去強化這部分的連結，比較能夠去確認就安基金的使用不會超出法定的用途之外，這部分我們又會用機制上面或者是相關的辦法來確認這件事情。"],["林委員月琴：好，所以最後本席還是希望，就安基金對於外國勞工跟雇主的分配使用上還是需要考慮到合理性、公平性；而且希望勞動部可以釐清就安基金的支出範圍，避免浮濫；還有在制度上保護就安基金的管理能夠抗拒壓力、獨立行使職權；完備就安基金管理的法制作業並限期達標。再麻煩部長，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝部長。","接續我們請陳菁徽委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","盧縣一","洪孟楷","王正旭","黃秀芳","陳瑩","劉建國","廖先翔","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱若華","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00005"}}}