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00:00:27,745\n好謝謝主席有請我們陸委會梁副主委麻煩梁副主委移民署來移民內政部移民署副署長副署長\n\n2\n00:00:30,507 --> 00:00:45,279\n委員好副主委還有副書長好我想最近你們在清查陸配的一個資料要求去補交喪失中國夫妻的一個公證書這個在社會上也引起了絢爛大波\n\n3\n00:00:46,055 --> 00:01:09,969\n然後認為說這是不是因為亞亞岸才搞出來的一個政治上的一個動作所以我這個地方是不是請副署長你先來做一個說明你們到底這個動作是一個政治上的一個動作或者說向社會大眾來說明一下為什麼突然會有這個動作是謝委員這事情不是突然在做一直持續在做這是首先先訓明的因為兩岸關係\n\n4\n00:01:11,810 --> 00:01:38,292\n是以單一戶籍為有序的一個交流依據所以在民國93年3月1日我們修正了兩岸關係條例的九條第九條之一裡面有規範要求台灣地區人民不得在大陸地區設有戶籍或領用大陸地區護照以避免雙重身份而造成權利異物重疊這個大家知道\n\n5\n00:01:38,832 --> 00:01:53,784\n這個大家知道是啦2004年有這樣的一個規定以後啊就這個修法的一個目的那本來就是說你不要有雙重國籍你也不要有雙重的一個身份那可是呢我規定了以後啊你說要去叫嘛證明說我已經註銷中國那邊的一個戶籍了\n\n6\n00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:22,320\n執行下來以後2004,20到2008又政黨輪替馬英九又幹了八年的總統,然後又到了蔡總統又幹了八年的總統那現在又到了賴總統,現在又開始了這二十年過了耶你們說他要叫,你們這個事情法律修法以後你們全部都沒有人動\n\n7\n00:02:23,359 --> 00:02:34,913\n或者說當初是什麼原因啊有的時候越來越多啊你現在怎麼辦沒有按照法律的規定說你如果沒有補銷的話你會把他的整個身份給註銷的是你趕快註銷你真的趕快註銷來來來副主委梁文傑副主委\n\n8\n00:02:41,175 --> 00:03:08,285\n法律規定副署長說的是有單一而已真的敢做這樣不敢吧這個如果是依法行政的話根據我們九條之一的規定就是當以2004年為界如果在2004年以前取得台灣身份的陸配那他必須在六個月之內繳回他取消大陸身份的證明文件否則就會註銷台灣的身份\n\n9\n00:03:10,816 --> 00:03:36,395\n那這個是九條之一的明確規定這沒有解釋的空間只是說這個九條之一從2004年到現在已經有20年的時間這20年的時間過去據我知道應該就是說如果有人檢舉說他沒有腳如果有人檢舉說他沒有腳那移民署會採取動作但是現在就是屬於一個比較\n\n10\n00:03:41,824 --> 00:04:05,415\n根據我們的資料做一個比較全面性的查查跟了解那我請教副組長閉角沒有的話就是要註銷副組長講的是說有人檢舉的話就要依法行政那這20年來有沒有任何一件被你們註銷的有因為檢舉不註銷因為這樣的一個原因沒有繳交被註銷的\n\n11\n00:04:10,152 --> 00:04:37,774\n有676人676個那你現在還有1萬多個你怎麼辦你現在我在看你現在給的三種辦法看起來是有的選在我看來每一條都行不通每一條都行不通為什麼這樣講呢你說去海基會去申請副本但是當年不是每一個人都是有走海基會的一個流程那你第二個說你親自到中國去辦聲明然後去公證\n\n12\n00:04:39,558 --> 00:04:49,288\n這個講得很輕鬆啦有些人根本其實也未必敢回去有政治風險的問題身份敏感的話你叫他回去這個也有點強人所難第三個說拜託親戚來幫忙拜託聽起來聽起來覺得很有道理每一個省規定不一樣有的會刁難有的可能會方便一點\n\n13\n00:05:01,055 --> 00:05:18,365\n那你這三條路看起來你說依法行政可是你事實上把人全部都卡在原地那你當事人怎麼辦我的意思就是說移民署你要去正視這個問題啦你這個補件不是問題啦那問題是上面這三種方法我看都不切實際\n\n14\n00:05:19,426 --> 00:05:41,672\n那是不是可以重新盤點一下替代方案就是說有沒有可能啊你針對說這些早年來台已經定居多年而且這個修法已經20年了嘛那生活比較穩定的這類的一個族群你去設立特別的條款或者去簡化他的一個審查的一個機制比如說你去設置一個信賴保護條款\n\n15\n00:05:42,412 --> 00:06:10,347\n對於居住一定年限以上的那沒有違法紀錄的那是否可以用竊解或其他的方式來做一個處理啦那不然喔你沒完沒了啦副主委跟你講說法律實的沒有解釋的空間我也不曉得這20年到底出了什麼狀況為什麼大家也不去執行是哪一個署長你的嫁嫁說那個賺到的臉罩臉沖的都有可能都有可能\n\n16\n00:06:11,608 --> 00:06:26,474\n情勢總會有所變遷可是放在那邊的一個問題的話法律在這裡那你說又撤銷到六百多個那其他人怎麼辦那如果有人嫌棄的呢看那個人不算嫌棄那嫌棄就算衰啊大陸出名的又沒有事那你怎麼辦\n\n17\n00:06:28,544 --> 00:06:53,024\n法務委員依據我們的統計目前歷年來獲准在台定居的陸配約有14萬餘人那我們清查的結果多數已經繳付上司原籍的證明現在你還有多少沒有還有1萬多所以我在跟你講說你這是走不出的三條路嘛\n\n18\n00:06:53,837 --> 00:07:07,489\n你沒有辦法處理那些人我們會針對這些尚未繳交上資源及證明文件的或許他可能有因為前陣子的疫情或者他個人的因素比方說他的健康狀態身體\n\n19\n00:07:10,271 --> 00:07:36,841\n這個都早就該做的啦早就該做的事我現在跟你講說好啦你這些都通知他的你也都依法行政的還是沒有我是在跟你講這個我們現在也跟委員報告我們現在的原因就是說如果民眾有無法實際上克服的這個困難沒有辦法順利取得所謂上司原籍證明的文件那移民署設有一個服務的電子信箱然後呢我們22個服務站\n\n20\n00:07:38,843 --> 00:07:59,624\n也多開放讓這些民眾來反映說他的個案的問題我們多整這些問題陸委會跟海基會我們來研商如何來尋求一個合理妥適的一個解決方案你跟我們講一波啊沒辦法換話啦報告委員其實我們陸委會跟移民署最近都接到很多的陳情電話\n\n21\n00:08:01,141 --> 00:08:29,318\n那有些的說他沒有辦法回去拿的理由我們聽起來是比較相對合理但是有些其實並不是那麼合理所以這些陳情的理由五花八門所以最後我們會跟移民署一起會商然後在哪些情況之下我們會認為說他的陳情是有理由的哪些是沒有理由的那這個我們都會來個別的進行幫忙謝謝\n\n22\n00:08:31,328 --> 00:08:38,855\n好所以其實喔九條一氣子沒有解釋的空間啦沒有交期子就是撤銷啦可是你經過了這二十年喔\n\n23\n00:08:39,830 --> 00:09:00,785\n你沒有去做的話剩下這一萬多個我們確實政府有責任你也必須啊這個確實用智慧把這個問題給處理掉了好不好好謝謝時間先暫停那我現在再請我們文傑副主委請留步還有國安局副局長好麻煩副局長\n\n24\n00:09:10,595 --> 00:09:30,387\n我來請教兩位啦,就是說最近溫婕副主委應該知道台灣有一個很有名的歌手Tank,他寫了一些八年級生很喜歡聽的一些歌啦,像比如說專屬的天使啦,給我你的愛啦但是他因為遺傳心臟病,他不得不淡出演藝圈\n\n25\n00:09:31,167 --> 00:09:49,000\n那有嘗試重出歌壇但是也不理想他在去年的十一月在中國完成了心肝這個同期的移植手術那前兩天他在個人的社群平台裡面表示感謝楚國然後並稱台灣這邊是一個台灣省這個聽起來其實有時候\n\n26\n00:09:52,719 --> 00:10:09,734\n心裡頭還是一般人聽了還是怪怪的但是一個需要器官移植沒有去移植他必須要可能生命會喪失的人對他來講的話在這個節骨炎裡面叫他做些什麼我相信他都會去負荷可是問題\n\n27\n00:10:11,495 --> 00:10:39,903\n從人道上來看的話這些都很正常可是在醫療上是不是讓這個統戰在醫療中無聲這樣的蔓延這個也值得去思考的問題那其實過去台灣我們也不擔心什麼叫醫療統戰因為我們這邊實在是我們的健保制度還有醫療的一個水準都非常的高可是我們台灣需要器官移植的人他就說你知不知道台獨有多少人\n\n28\n00:10:42,608 --> 00:11:08,818\n跟我們報告這個數據我們沒有掌握等待器官移植的一萬一千人這一萬一千人裡面如果說叫我叫一般叫這些人為了他的生命去唱一首奪這個盆墨整個中國共產黨甚至於更來壓抑我們自己的台灣中華民國他會做\n\n29\n00:11:11,681 --> 00:11:30,445\n這人之常情我認為他會做他要活命嘛所以人道之間這個也是很困難可是共產國家他這個器官的來源這確實不透明這是很大的一個問題那你接受了這個器官移植以後我相信絕大多數人會接受統戰這叫人性那這些怎麼辦呢\n\n30\n00:11:34,684 --> 00:11:47,884\n換成你們的大人也好啦也說你們比較抱歉我們旁邊的人我們好朋友他是大人還是他自己要換器官女子他說你跟他說一下台灣剩餘是在外賣你跟他說我共產黨不好這樣你也做不夠這樣不好讓你換\n\n31\n00:11:51,056 --> 00:12:06,885\n所以在死亡的面前,其實人都很渺小過去我們不怕,可是現在一萬一千多人,這你顧不顧得了?\n\n32\n00:12:11,775 --> 00:12:40,400\n郭文貴報告那個如果我們國安單位大概都是以收集相關的一個情緒那你們沒有辦法我要跟你們說明一下碰到這種狀況這個立場不同的人會很生氣那我相信那一萬一千件以後還是會很多這個真的是醫療統戰這個它就會無聲這樣一直蔓延下去蔓延下去所以你說國安\n\n33\n00:12:42,638 --> 00:12:52,664\n帽子很大可是碰到這種人性你也很困難你也沒辦法你可以兩手一攤你說我們再來研議你能這樣嗎有辦法嗎這個是一個議題啦也非常謝謝委員點出來了這相信面臨到這個問題我相信我們會尋求一個研議一個方式來處理啦\n\n34\n00:13:11,069 --> 00:13:19,866\n好兩位請為那個召委抱歉最後再給我一個一分鐘的時間我請我們保護部部長還有司法院今天廳長有來今天廳長有來\n\n35\n00:13:27,259 --> 00:13:46,181\n委員早我來請教最後一個問題啦就沒有問題要對不起趙委員因為趙委今天開了這樣的一個題目就是說我們這個言論自由是在司法實務中是不是真正存在他的界線在哪裡誰說的算其實本席的立場很簡單啦\n\n36\n00:13:47,102 --> 00:13:58,438\n就是說言論自由當然在但問題是說他的界限啊不會是吳宗憲講的算不會我周恩雄講的算也不會法務部長講的算或者高官講的算那其實啊\n\n37\n00:13:59,619 --> 00:14:24,252\n我們更講說不會是阿貓阿狗講的算那就是說啊你去看看大法官你去看看法律它的一個規範到最後都是要回歸到這裡嘛那我要請教的就是說其實我們從4至509號在講新聞自由445號重新回溯去看集會遊行避免言論的審查的自由還有4至617號這一些其實都是在講言論自由那\n\n38\n00:14:25,427 --> 00:14:46,636\n今天本席不打算來重複論述這一些啦但請教兩位就是說就是言論自由跟國安發生衝突的時候我們司法跟檢查體系你們要如何去審查你們審查的標準又是什麼這很困難耶那現在大家在看這樣講就是說一個人本來就只有表達他政治上的一個意見\n\n39\n00:14:48,495 --> 00:15:01,540\n但是現在社會上碰到一個問題你說主張統一看起來又是言論的一個自由可是如果講說武力動好煽動戰爭那這一些來看的話部長跟廳長你們認為這還單純的言論自由嗎\n\n40\n00:15:07,151 --> 00:15:32,757\n這不事實上這確實是一個問題那4445跟644其實有跨一條線他說有明顯跟立即的一個危險的一個原則那另外最高法院109年台商是3695號刑事判決也是揭示說有明顯的立即危險原則但我想這是一個原則一個揭示那是不是要來再做一個\n\n41\n00:15:35,317 --> 00:15:54,346\n明確立法來做一個定義那我想我們這邊我們會納入秀法的一個參考我的意思就是說你政府如果要對於人民的政治主張你要去做處罰的話這要採非常嚴格的標準法律你要非常的一個明確啦我剛剛為什麼要提出這樣子的問題出來\n\n42\n00:15:55,467 --> 00:16:20,302\n就是說你以後碰到這些問題很多人在網路上一定會去做一個發表然後甚至於你現在沒有去做處理的話那你以後碰到的問題還會必須更多那所以本席提出具體的一個建議就是說你針對鼓吹戰爭宣傳你們要決定得很明確你如果稍微跟著鼓吹稍微跟著戰爭稍微跟著宣傳\n\n43\n00:16:21,772 --> 00:16:50,215\n你總是要把那個定義把它給界定清楚啊你沒界定清楚的話法律又不明確啊不明確你說我不曉得該怎麼處罰那你就繼續蔓延那每一次發生這種事情的時候社會上大家又來討論法律明確性啊這個明確性的一個原則啊那本來就是法律人的一個要求社會大眾也這樣一個要求可是我們也擔心你沒有去講清楚的話\n\n44\n00:16:51,107 --> 00:17:15,097\n變成說扯到國安啊大家變成對老百姓又產生一個寒產效應這也不對啊這也不對啊所以我建議喔我講到跌倒了你看這個議題多重要談到這個議題就馬上欸這個是地震喔欸有喔不是叫我不要問啊趙偉這樣叫我不要問啊欸叫我趙偉說叫我繼續啦我今天齁\n\n45\n00:17:20,748 --> 00:17:22,016\n你如果說你模糊\n\n46\n00:17:23,049 --> 00:17:51,031\n一天模糊那接下來要審查來來去去你會變成一種到最後後天你會變成噤聲啦這個其實都不是一個民主國家的一個正常的一個常態啦所以我要請教的就是說我們法務部跟司法院這個地方那是不是應該啊應該啊強化法律的一個明確性啊避免行政跟司法機關的過度的一個解釋聽著我來請教你的看法\n\n47\n00:17:53,190 --> 00:18:13,349\n跟委員報告其實大法官也已經明確指出不是所有的言論都受到保障是還是可以用法律來加以限制的那只是需要符合比例原則跟明確性原則那至於怎麼樣來限制那這就是個別實體法的規範必須要符合這樣一個原則那司法院是站在\n\n48\n00:18:14,450 --> 00:18:28,114\n最後是適用法律來審查這些法規範來加以在個案中適用所以我們尊重主管機關的立法決定跟貴院的立法形成的自由這樣我主張很簡單雖然我是執政黨的一個立委\n\n49\n00:18:30,655 --> 00:18:55,961\n但是我認為審查政治的一個言論是要以民主價值來當核心而不是以國安的藉口來壓縮空間所以就必須法律讓它非常的一個明確你法律沒有明確的話沒完沒了啦沒完沒了所以我在這邊期許我們司法院我們法務部甚至於我們跟人權委員會這個地方我們趕快去做一個合作推動整個制度的改革跟立法的一個精進\n\n50\n00:18:56,621 --> 00:19:21,213\n否則喔法律不明確大家開始都灰了造成司法機關動輒得咎開始辦一個暗欄的改公哎喲當成執政黨的一個打手這對你們也不好啊好不好這樣最基本的要求可以做到嗎謝謝委員贊成委員意見我們當作修法的重要參考我覺得你不贊成也不行一個人這樣做這最基本的常識啊好不好謝謝謝謝委員\n\n51\n00:19:23,604 --> 00:19:36,184\n謝謝莊委員,莊委員後面非常感動而且認同,後面這一段下一位我們請林倩祺委員發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7679\t27745\t好 謝謝主席 有請我們陸委會梁副主委麻煩梁副主委移民署來移民 內政部移民署副署長副署長\n30507\t45279\t委員好副主委還有副書長好我想最近你們在清查陸配的一個資料要求去補交喪失中國夫妻的一個公證書這個在社會上也引起了絢爛大波\n46055\t69969\t然後認為說這是不是因為亞亞岸才搞出來的一個政治上的一個動作所以我這個地方是不是請副署長你先來做一個說明你們到底這個動作是一個政治上的一個動作或者說向社會大眾來說明一下為什麼突然會有這個動作是 謝委員這事情不是突然在做一直持續在做這是首先先訓明的因為兩岸關係\n71810\t98292\t是以單一戶籍為有序的一個交流依據所以在民國93年3月1日我們修正了兩岸關係條例的九條第九條之一裡面有規範要求台灣地區人民不得在大陸地區設有戶籍或領用大陸地區護照以避免雙重身份而造成權利異物重疊這個大家知道\n98832\t113784\t這個大家知道 是啦 2004年有這樣的一個規定以後啊就這個修法的一個目的 那本來就是說你不要有雙重國籍 你也不要有雙重的一個身份那可是呢 我規定了以後啊你說要去叫嘛 證明說我已經註銷中國那邊的一個戶籍了\n123960\t142320\t執行下來以後2004,20到2008又政黨輪替馬英九又幹了八年的總統,然後又到了蔡總統又幹了八年的總統那現在又到了賴總統,現在又開始了這二十年過了耶你們說他要叫,你們這個事情法律修法以後你們全部都沒有人動\n143359\t154913\t或者說當初是什麼原因啊有的時候越來越多啊你現在怎麼辦沒有按照法律的規定說你如果沒有補銷的話你會把他的整個身份給註銷的是你趕快註銷你真的趕快註銷來來來 副主委梁文傑副主委\n161175\t188285\t法律規定 副署長說的是有 單一而已真的敢做這樣 不敢吧這個如果是依法行政的話根據我們九條之一的規定就是當以2004年為界如果在2004年以前取得台灣身份的陸配那他必須在六個月之內繳回他取消大陸身份的證明文件否則就會註銷台灣的身份\n190816\t216395\t那這個是九條之一的明確規定這沒有解釋的空間只是說這個九條之一從2004年到現在已經有20年的時間這20年的時間過去據我知道應該就是說如果有人檢舉說他沒有腳如果有人檢舉說他沒有腳那移民署會採取動作但是現在就是屬於一個比較\n221824\t245415\t根據我們的資料做一個比較全面性的查查跟了解那我請教副組長閉角沒有的話就是要註銷副組長講的是說有人檢舉的話就要依法行政那這20年來有沒有任何一件被你們註銷的有因為檢舉不註銷因為這樣的一個原因沒有繳交被註銷的\n250152\t277774\t有676人676個那你現在還有1萬多個你怎麼辦你現在我在看你現在給的三種辦法看起來是有的選在我看來每一條都行不通每一條都行不通為什麼這樣講呢你說去海基會去申請副本但是當年不是每一個人都是有走海基會的一個流程那你第二個說你親自到中國去辦聲明然後去公證\n279558\t289288\t這個講得很輕鬆啦有些人根本其實也未必敢回去有政治風險的問題身份敏感的話你叫他回去這個也有點強人所難第三個說拜託親戚來幫忙拜託聽起來聽起來覺得很有道理每一個省規定不一樣有的會刁難有的可能會方便一點\n301055\t318365\t那你這三條路看起來你說依法行政可是你事實上把人全部都卡在原地那你當事人怎麼辦我的意思就是說移民署你要去正視這個問題啦你這個補件不是問題啦那問題是上面這三種方法我看都不切實際\n319426\t341672\t那是不是可以重新盤點一下替代方案就是說有沒有可能啊你針對說這些早年來台已經定居多年而且這個修法已經20年了嘛那生活比較穩定的這類的一個族群你去設立特別的條款或者去簡化他的一個審查的一個機制比如說你去設置一個信賴保護條款\n342412\t370347\t對於居住一定年限以上的那沒有違法紀錄的那是否可以用竊解或其他的方式來做一個處理啦那不然喔你沒完沒了啦副主委跟你講說法律實的沒有解釋的空間我也不曉得這20年到底出了什麼狀況為什麼大家也不去執行是哪一個署長 你的嫁嫁說那個賺到的臉罩 臉沖的都有可能 都有可能\n371608\t386474\t情勢總會有所變遷可是放在那邊的一個問題的話法律在這裡那你說又撤銷到六百多個那其他人怎麼辦那如果有人嫌棄的呢看那個人不算嫌棄那嫌棄就算衰啊大陸出名的又沒有事那你怎麼辦\n388544\t413024\t法務委員 依據我們的統計 目前歷年來 獲准在台定居的陸配約有14萬餘人那我們清查的結果 多數已經繳付上司原籍的證明現在你還有多少沒有還有1萬多所以我在跟你講說 你這是走不出的三條路嘛\n413837\t427489\t你沒有辦法處理那些人我們會針對這些尚未繳交上資源及證明文件的或許他可能有因為前陣子的疫情或者他個人的因素比方說他的健康狀態身體\n430271\t456841\t這個都早就該做的啦早就該做的事我現在跟你講說好啦你這些都通知他的你也都依法行政的還是沒有我是在跟你講這個我們現在也跟委員報告我們現在的原因就是說如果民眾有無法實際上克服的這個困難沒有辦法順利取得所謂上司原籍證明的文件那移民署設有一個服務的電子信箱然後呢我們22個服務站\n458843\t479624\t也多開放 讓這些民眾來反映說他的個案的問題我們多整這些問題 陸委會跟海基會 我們來研商如何來尋求一個合理妥適的一個解決方案你跟我們講一波啊 沒辦法換話啦報告委員 其實我們陸委會跟移民署最近都接到很多的陳情電話\n481141\t509318\t那有些的說他沒有辦法回去拿的理由我們聽起來是比較相對合理但是有些其實並不是那麼合理所以這些陳情的理由五花八門所以最後我們會跟移民署一起會商然後在哪些情況之下我們會認為說他的陳情是有理由的哪些是沒有理由的那這個我們都會來個別的進行幫忙謝謝\n511328\t518855\t好 所以其實喔九條一氣子沒有解釋的空間啦沒有交期子就是撤銷啦可是你經過了這二十年喔\n519830\t540785\t你沒有去做的話 剩下這一萬多個 我們確實政府有責任你也必須啊 這個確實用智慧把這個問題給處理掉了 好不好好 謝謝 時間先暫停那我現在再請我們 文傑副主委請留步還有國安局副局長好 麻煩副局長\n550595\t570387\t我來請教兩位啦,就是說最近溫婕副主委應該知道台灣有一個很有名的歌手Tank,他寫了一些八年級生很喜歡聽的一些歌啦,像比如說專屬的天使啦,給我你的愛啦但是他因為遺傳心臟病,他不得不淡出演藝圈\n571167\t589000\t那有嘗試重出歌壇但是也不理想他在去年的十一月在中國完成了心肝這個同期的移植手術那前兩天他在個人的社群平台裡面表示感謝楚國然後並稱台灣這邊是一個台灣省這個聽起來其實有時候\n592719\t609734\t心裡頭還是一般人聽了還是怪怪的但是一個需要器官移植沒有去移植他必須要可能生命會喪失的人對他來講的話在這個節骨炎裡面叫他做些什麼我相信他都會去負荷可是問題\n611495\t639903\t從人道上來看的話這些都很正常可是在醫療上是不是讓這個統戰在醫療中無聲這樣的蔓延這個也值得去思考的問題那其實過去台灣我們也不擔心什麼叫醫療統戰因為我們這邊實在是我們的健保制度還有醫療的一個水準都非常的高可是我們台灣需要器官移植的人他就說你知不知道台獨有多少人\n642608\t668818\t跟我們報告這個數據我們沒有掌握等待器官移植的一萬一千人這一萬一千人裡面如果說叫我叫一般叫這些人為了他的生命去唱一首奪這個盆墨整個中國共產黨甚至於更來壓抑我們自己的台灣中華民國他會做\n671681\t690445\t這人之常情 我認為他會做 他要活命嘛所以人道之間 這個也是很困難可是共產國家他這個器官的來源 這確實不透明這是很大的一個問題那你接受了這個器官移植以後我相信絕大多數人會接受統戰 這叫人性那這些怎麼辦呢\n694684\t707884\t換成你們的大人也好啦 也說你們比較抱歉 我們旁邊的人 我們好朋友 他是大人 還是他自己要換器官女子他說你跟他說一下台灣剩餘是在外賣 你跟他說我共產黨不好 這樣你也做不夠 這樣不好讓你換\n711056\t726885\t所以在死亡的面前,其實人都很渺小過去我們不怕,可是現在一萬一千多人,這你顧不顧得了?\n731775\t760400\t郭文貴報告 那個如果我們國安單位大概都是以收集相關的一個情緒那你們沒有辦法 我要跟你們說明一下碰到這種狀況這個立場不同的人會很生氣那我相信那一萬一千件以後還是會很多這個真的是醫療統戰這個它就會無聲這樣一直蔓延下去蔓延下去所以你說國安\n762638\t772664\t帽子很大 可是碰到這種人性你也很困難你也沒辦法 你可以兩手一攤你說我們再來研議 你能這樣嗎 有辦法嗎這個是一個議題啦 也非常謝謝委員點出來了這相信 面臨到這個問題我相信我們會尋求一個 研議一個方式來處理啦\n791069\t799866\t好 兩位請為那個召委 抱歉最後再給我一個一分鐘的時間我請我們保護部部長還有司法院今天廳長有來今天廳長有來\n807259\t826181\t委員早我來請教最後一個問題啦就沒有問題要對不起趙委員因為趙委今天開了這樣的一個題目就是說我們這個言論自由是在司法實務中是不是真正存在他的界線在哪裡誰說的算其實本席的立場很簡單啦\n827102\t838438\t就是說言論自由當然在但問題是說他的界限啊不會是吳宗憲講的算不會我周恩雄講的算也不會法務部長講的算或者高官講的算那其實啊\n839619\t864252\t我們更講說不會是阿貓阿狗講的算那就是說啊 你去看看大法官 你去看看法律它的一個規範到最後都是要回歸到這裡嘛那我要請教的就是說 其實我們從4至509號在講新聞自由445號重新回溯去看集會遊行 避免言論的審查的自由還有4至617號 這一些其實都是在講言論自由那\n865427\t886636\t今天本席不打算來重複論述這一些啦但請教兩位就是說就是言論自由跟國安發生衝突的時候我們司法跟檢查體系你們要如何去審查你們審查的標準又是什麼這很困難耶那現在大家在看這樣講就是說一個人本來就只有表達他政治上的一個意見\n888495\t901540\t但是現在社會上碰到一個問題 你說主張統一看起來又是言論的一個自由可是如果講說武力動好 煽動戰爭那這一些來看的話 部長跟廳長你們認為這還單純的言論自由嗎\n907151\t932757\t這不事實上這確實是一個問題那4445跟644其實有跨一條線他說有明顯跟立即的一個危險的一個原則那另外最高法院109年台商是3695號刑事判決也是揭示說有明顯的立即危險原則但我想這是一個原則一個揭示那是不是要來再做一個\n935317\t954346\t明確立法來做一個定義那我想我們這邊我們會納入秀法的一個參考我的意思就是說你政府如果要對於人民的政治主張你要去做處罰的話這要採非常嚴格的標準法律你要非常的一個明確啦我剛剛為什麼要提出這樣子的問題出來\n955467\t980302\t就是說你以後碰到這些問題很多人在網路上一定會去做一個發表然後甚至於你現在沒有去做處理的話那你以後碰到的問題還會必須更多那所以本席提出具體的一個建議就是說你針對鼓吹戰爭宣傳你們要決定得很明確你如果稍微跟著鼓吹 稍微跟著戰爭 稍微跟著宣傳\n981772\t1010215\t你總是要把那個定義把它給界定清楚啊你沒界定清楚的話法律又不明確啊不明確你說我不曉得該怎麼處罰那你就繼續蔓延那每一次發生這種事情的時候社會上大家又來討論法律明確性啊這個明確性的一個原則啊那本來就是法律人的一個要求社會大眾也這樣一個要求可是我們也擔心你沒有去講清楚的話\n1011107\t1035097\t變成說扯到國安啊大家變成對老百姓又產生一個寒產效應這也不對啊這也不對啊所以我建議 喔我講到跌倒了你看這個議題多重要談到這個議題就馬上 欸這個是地震喔欸有喔不是叫我不要問啊 趙偉這樣叫我不要問啊欸叫我 趙偉說叫我繼續啦我今天齁\n1040748\t1042016\t你如果說你模糊\n1043049\t1071031\t一天模糊那接下來要審查來來去去你會變成一種到最後後天你會變成噤聲啦這個其實都不是一個民主國家的一個正常的一個常態啦所以我要請教的就是說我們法務部跟司法院這個地方那是不是應該啊 應該啊強化法律的一個明確性啊避免行政跟司法機關的過度的一個解釋聽著 我來請教你的看法\n1073190\t1093349\t跟委員報告其實大法官也已經明確指出不是所有的言論都受到保障是還是可以用法律來加以限制的那只是需要符合比例原則跟明確性原則那至於怎麼樣來限制那這就是個別實體法的規範必須要符合這樣一個原則那司法院是站在\n1094450\t1108114\t最後是適用法律來審查這些法規範來加以在個案中適用所以我們尊重主管機關的立法決定跟貴院的立法形成的自由這樣我主張很簡單雖然我是執政黨的一個立委\n1110655\t1135961\t但是我認為審查政治的一個言論是要以民主價值來當核心而不是以國安的藉口來壓縮空間所以就必須法律讓它非常的一個明確你法律沒有明確的話沒完沒了啦沒完沒了所以我在這邊期許我們司法院我們法務部甚至於我們跟人權委員會這個地方我們趕快去做一個合作推動整個制度的改革跟立法的一個精進\n1136621\t1161213\t否則喔 法律不明確 大家開始都灰了造成司法機關動輒得咎 開始辦一個暗欄的改公哎喲 當成執政黨的一個打手 這對你們也不好啊好不好 這樣最基本的要求可以做到嗎謝謝委員 贊成委員意見 我們當作修法的重要參考我覺得你不贊成也不行 一個人這樣做 這最基本的常識啊好不好 謝謝謝謝委員\n1163604\t1176184\t謝謝莊委員,莊委員後面非常感動而且認同,後面這一段下一位我們請林倩祺委員發言\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 有請我們陸委會梁副主委麻煩梁副主委移民署來移民 內政部移民署副署長副署長\n委員好副主委還有副書長好我想最近你們在清查陸配的一個資料要求去補交喪失中國夫妻的一個公證書這個在社會上也引起了絢爛大波\n然後認為說這是不是因為亞亞岸才搞出來的一個政治上的一個動作所以我這個地方是不是請副署長你先來做一個說明你們到底這個動作是一個政治上的一個動作或者說向社會大眾來說明一下為什麼突然會有這個動作是 謝委員這事情不是突然在做一直持續在做這是首先先訓明的因為兩岸關係\n是以單一戶籍為有序的一個交流依據所以在民國93年3月1日我們修正了兩岸關係條例的九條第九條之一裡面有規範要求台灣地區人民不得在大陸地區設有戶籍或領用大陸地區護照以避免雙重身份而造成權利異物重疊這個大家知道\n這個大家知道 是啦 2004年有這樣的一個規定以後啊就這個修法的一個目的 那本來就是說你不要有雙重國籍 你也不要有雙重的一個身份那可是呢 我規定了以後啊你說要去叫嘛 證明說我已經註銷中國那邊的一個戶籍了\n執行下來以後2004,20到2008又政黨輪替馬英九又幹了八年的總統,然後又到了蔡總統又幹了八年的總統那現在又到了賴總統,現在又開始了這二十年過了耶你們說他要叫,你們這個事情法律修法以後你們全部都沒有人動\n或者說當初是什麼原因啊有的時候越來越多啊你現在怎麼辦沒有按照法律的規定說你如果沒有補銷的話你會把他的整個身份給註銷的是你趕快註銷你真的趕快註銷來來來 副主委梁文傑副主委\n法律規定 副署長說的是有 單一而已真的敢做這樣 不敢吧這個如果是依法行政的話根據我們九條之一的規定就是當以2004年為界如果在2004年以前取得台灣身份的陸配那他必須在六個月之內繳回他取消大陸身份的證明文件否則就會註銷台灣的身份\n那這個是九條之一的明確規定這沒有解釋的空間只是說這個九條之一從2004年到現在已經有20年的時間這20年的時間過去據我知道應該就是說如果有人檢舉說他沒有腳如果有人檢舉說他沒有腳那移民署會採取動作但是現在就是屬於一個比較\n根據我們的資料做一個比較全面性的查查跟了解那我請教副組長閉角沒有的話就是要註銷副組長講的是說有人檢舉的話就要依法行政那這20年來有沒有任何一件被你們註銷的有因為檢舉不註銷因為這樣的一個原因沒有繳交被註銷的\n有676人676個那你現在還有1萬多個你怎麼辦你現在我在看你現在給的三種辦法看起來是有的選在我看來每一條都行不通每一條都行不通為什麼這樣講呢你說去海基會去申請副本但是當年不是每一個人都是有走海基會的一個流程那你第二個說你親自到中國去辦聲明然後去公證\n這個講得很輕鬆啦有些人根本其實也未必敢回去有政治風險的問題身份敏感的話你叫他回去這個也有點強人所難第三個說拜託親戚來幫忙拜託聽起來聽起來覺得很有道理每一個省規定不一樣有的會刁難有的可能會方便一點\n那你這三條路看起來你說依法行政可是你事實上把人全部都卡在原地那你當事人怎麼辦我的意思就是說移民署你要去正視這個問題啦你這個補件不是問題啦那問題是上面這三種方法我看都不切實際\n那是不是可以重新盤點一下替代方案就是說有沒有可能啊你針對說這些早年來台已經定居多年而且這個修法已經20年了嘛那生活比較穩定的這類的一個族群你去設立特別的條款或者去簡化他的一個審查的一個機制比如說你去設置一個信賴保護條款\n對於居住一定年限以上的那沒有違法紀錄的那是否可以用竊解或其他的方式來做一個處理啦那不然喔你沒完沒了啦副主委跟你講說法律實的沒有解釋的空間我也不曉得這20年到底出了什麼狀況為什麼大家也不去執行是哪一個署長 你的嫁嫁說那個賺到的臉罩 臉沖的都有可能 都有可能\n情勢總會有所變遷可是放在那邊的一個問題的話法律在這裡那你說又撤銷到六百多個那其他人怎麼辦那如果有人嫌棄的呢看那個人不算嫌棄那嫌棄就算衰啊大陸出名的又沒有事那你怎麼辦\n法務委員 依據我們的統計 目前歷年來 獲准在台定居的陸配約有14萬餘人那我們清查的結果 多數已經繳付上司原籍的證明現在你還有多少沒有還有1萬多所以我在跟你講說 你這是走不出的三條路嘛\n你沒有辦法處理那些人我們會針對這些尚未繳交上資源及證明文件的或許他可能有因為前陣子的疫情或者他個人的因素比方說他的健康狀態身體\n這個都早就該做的啦早就該做的事我現在跟你講說好啦你這些都通知他的你也都依法行政的還是沒有我是在跟你講這個我們現在也跟委員報告我們現在的原因就是說如果民眾有無法實際上克服的這個困難沒有辦法順利取得所謂上司原籍證明的文件那移民署設有一個服務的電子信箱然後呢我們22個服務站\n也多開放 讓這些民眾來反映說他的個案的問題我們多整這些問題 陸委會跟海基會 我們來研商如何來尋求一個合理妥適的一個解決方案你跟我們講一波啊 沒辦法換話啦報告委員 其實我們陸委會跟移民署最近都接到很多的陳情電話\n那有些的說他沒有辦法回去拿的理由我們聽起來是比較相對合理但是有些其實並不是那麼合理所以這些陳情的理由五花八門所以最後我們會跟移民署一起會商然後在哪些情況之下我們會認為說他的陳情是有理由的哪些是沒有理由的那這個我們都會來個別的進行幫忙謝謝\n好 所以其實喔九條一氣子沒有解釋的空間啦沒有交期子就是撤銷啦可是你經過了這二十年喔\n你沒有去做的話 剩下這一萬多個 我們確實政府有責任你也必須啊 這個確實用智慧把這個問題給處理掉了 好不好好 謝謝 時間先暫停那我現在再請我們 文傑副主委請留步還有國安局副局長好 麻煩副局長\n我來請教兩位啦,就是說最近溫婕副主委應該知道台灣有一個很有名的歌手Tank,他寫了一些八年級生很喜歡聽的一些歌啦,像比如說專屬的天使啦,給我你的愛啦但是他因為遺傳心臟病,他不得不淡出演藝圈\n那有嘗試重出歌壇但是也不理想他在去年的十一月在中國完成了心肝這個同期的移植手術那前兩天他在個人的社群平台裡面表示感謝楚國然後並稱台灣這邊是一個台灣省這個聽起來其實有時候\n心裡頭還是一般人聽了還是怪怪的但是一個需要器官移植沒有去移植他必須要可能生命會喪失的人對他來講的話在這個節骨炎裡面叫他做些什麼我相信他都會去負荷可是問題\n從人道上來看的話這些都很正常可是在醫療上是不是讓這個統戰在醫療中無聲這樣的蔓延這個也值得去思考的問題那其實過去台灣我們也不擔心什麼叫醫療統戰因為我們這邊實在是我們的健保制度還有醫療的一個水準都非常的高可是我們台灣需要器官移植的人他就說你知不知道台獨有多少人\n跟我們報告這個數據我們沒有掌握等待器官移植的一萬一千人這一萬一千人裡面如果說叫我叫一般叫這些人為了他的生命去唱一首奪這個盆墨整個中國共產黨甚至於更來壓抑我們自己的台灣中華民國他會做\n這人之常情 我認為他會做 他要活命嘛所以人道之間 這個也是很困難可是共產國家他這個器官的來源 這確實不透明這是很大的一個問題那你接受了這個器官移植以後我相信絕大多數人會接受統戰 這叫人性那這些怎麼辦呢\n換成你們的大人也好啦 也說你們比較抱歉 我們旁邊的人 我們好朋友 他是大人 還是他自己要換器官女子他說你跟他說一下台灣剩餘是在外賣 你跟他說我共產黨不好 這樣你也做不夠 這樣不好讓你換\n所以在死亡的面前,其實人都很渺小過去我們不怕,可是現在一萬一千多人,這你顧不顧得了?\n郭文貴報告 那個如果我們國安單位大概都是以收集相關的一個情緒那你們沒有辦法 我要跟你們說明一下碰到這種狀況這個立場不同的人會很生氣那我相信那一萬一千件以後還是會很多這個真的是醫療統戰這個它就會無聲這樣一直蔓延下去蔓延下去所以你說國安\n帽子很大 可是碰到這種人性你也很困難你也沒辦法 你可以兩手一攤你說我們再來研議 你能這樣嗎 有辦法嗎這個是一個議題啦 也非常謝謝委員點出來了這相信 面臨到這個問題我相信我們會尋求一個 研議一個方式來處理啦\n好 兩位請為那個召委 抱歉最後再給我一個一分鐘的時間我請我們保護部部長還有司法院今天廳長有來今天廳長有來\n委員早我來請教最後一個問題啦就沒有問題要對不起趙委員因為趙委今天開了這樣的一個題目就是說我們這個言論自由是在司法實務中是不是真正存在他的界線在哪裡誰說的算其實本席的立場很簡單啦\n就是說言論自由當然在但問題是說他的界限啊不會是吳宗憲講的算不會我周恩雄講的算也不會法務部長講的算或者高官講的算那其實啊\n我們更講說不會是阿貓阿狗講的算那就是說啊 你去看看大法官 你去看看法律它的一個規範到最後都是要回歸到這裡嘛那我要請教的就是說 其實我們從4至509號在講新聞自由445號重新回溯去看集會遊行 避免言論的審查的自由還有4至617號 這一些其實都是在講言論自由那\n今天本席不打算來重複論述這一些啦但請教兩位就是說就是言論自由跟國安發生衝突的時候我們司法跟檢查體系你們要如何去審查你們審查的標準又是什麼這很困難耶那現在大家在看這樣講就是說一個人本來就只有表達他政治上的一個意見\n但是現在社會上碰到一個問題 你說主張統一看起來又是言論的一個自由可是如果講說武力動好 煽動戰爭那這一些來看的話 部長跟廳長你們認為這還單純的言論自由嗎\n這不事實上這確實是一個問題那4445跟644其實有跨一條線他說有明顯跟立即的一個危險的一個原則那另外最高法院109年台商是3695號刑事判決也是揭示說有明顯的立即危險原則但我想這是一個原則一個揭示那是不是要來再做一個\n明確立法來做一個定義那我想我們這邊我們會納入秀法的一個參考我的意思就是說你政府如果要對於人民的政治主張你要去做處罰的話這要採非常嚴格的標準法律你要非常的一個明確啦我剛剛為什麼要提出這樣子的問題出來\n就是說你以後碰到這些問題很多人在網路上一定會去做一個發表然後甚至於你現在沒有去做處理的話那你以後碰到的問題還會必須更多那所以本席提出具體的一個建議就是說你針對鼓吹戰爭宣傳你們要決定得很明確你如果稍微跟著鼓吹 稍微跟著戰爭 稍微跟著宣傳\n你總是要把那個定義把它給界定清楚啊你沒界定清楚的話法律又不明確啊不明確你說我不曉得該怎麼處罰那你就繼續蔓延那每一次發生這種事情的時候社會上大家又來討論法律明確性啊這個明確性的一個原則啊那本來就是法律人的一個要求社會大眾也這樣一個要求可是我們也擔心你沒有去講清楚的話\n變成說扯到國安啊大家變成對老百姓又產生一個寒產效應這也不對啊這也不對啊所以我建議 喔我講到跌倒了你看這個議題多重要談到這個議題就馬上 欸這個是地震喔欸有喔不是叫我不要問啊 趙偉這樣叫我不要問啊欸叫我 趙偉說叫我繼續啦我今天齁\n你如果說你模糊\n一天模糊那接下來要審查來來去去你會變成一種到最後後天你會變成噤聲啦這個其實都不是一個民主國家的一個正常的一個常態啦所以我要請教的就是說我們法務部跟司法院這個地方那是不是應該啊 應該啊強化法律的一個明確性啊避免行政跟司法機關的過度的一個解釋聽著 我來請教你的看法\n跟委員報告其實大法官也已經明確指出不是所有的言論都受到保障是還是可以用法律來加以限制的那只是需要符合比例原則跟明確性原則那至於怎麼樣來限制那這就是個別實體法的規範必須要符合這樣一個原則那司法院是站在\n最後是適用法律來審查這些法規範來加以在個案中適用所以我們尊重主管機關的立法決定跟貴院的立法形成的自由這樣我主張很簡單雖然我是執政黨的一個立委\n但是我認為審查政治的一個言論是要以民主價值來當核心而不是以國安的藉口來壓縮空間所以就必須法律讓它非常的一個明確你法律沒有明確的話沒完沒了啦沒完沒了所以我在這邊期許我們司法院我們法務部甚至於我們跟人權委員會這個地方我們趕快去做一個合作推動整個制度的改革跟立法的一個精進\n否則喔 法律不明確 大家開始都灰了造成司法機關動輒得咎 開始辦一個暗欄的改公哎喲 當成執政黨的一個打手 這對你們也不好啊好不好 這樣最基本的要求可以做到嗎謝謝委員 贊成委員意見 我們當作修法的重要參考我覺得你不贊成也不行 一個人這樣做 這最基本的常識啊好不好 謝謝謝謝委員\n謝謝莊委員,莊委員後面非常感動而且認同,後面這一段下一位我們請林倩祺委員發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.679 --> 00:27.745\n好謝謝主席有請我們陸委會梁副主委麻煩梁副主委移民署來移民內政部移民署副署長副署長\n\n00:30.507 --> 00:45.279\n委員好副主委還有副書長好我想最近你們在清查陸配的一個資料要求去補交喪失中國夫妻的一個公證書這個在社會上也引起了絢爛大波\n\n00:46.055 --> 01:09.969\n然後認為說這是不是因為亞亞岸才搞出來的一個政治上的一個動作所以我這個地方是不是請副署長你先來做一個說明你們到底這個動作是一個政治上的一個動作或者說向社會大眾來說明一下為什麼突然會有這個動作是謝委員這事情不是突然在做一直持續在做這是首先先訓明的因為兩岸關係\n\n01:11.810 --> 01:38.292\n是以單一戶籍為有序的一個交流依據所以在民國93年3月1日我們修正了兩岸關係條例的九條第九條之一裡面有規範要求台灣地區人民不得在大陸地區設有戶籍或領用大陸地區護照以避免雙重身份而造成權利異物重疊這個大家知道\n\n01:38.832 --> 01:53.784\n這個大家知道是啦2004年有這樣的一個規定以後啊就這個修法的一個目的那本來就是說你不要有雙重國籍你也不要有雙重的一個身份那可是呢我規定了以後啊你說要去叫嘛證明說我已經註銷中國那邊的一個戶籍了\n\n02:03.960 --> 02:22.320\n執行下來以後2004,20到2008又政黨輪替馬英九又幹了八年的總統,然後又到了蔡總統又幹了八年的總統那現在又到了賴總統,現在又開始了這二十年過了耶你們說他要叫,你們這個事情法律修法以後你們全部都沒有人動\n\n02:23.359 --> 02:34.913\n或者說當初是什麼原因啊有的時候越來越多啊你現在怎麼辦沒有按照法律的規定說你如果沒有補銷的話你會把他的整個身份給註銷的是你趕快註銷你真的趕快註銷來來來副主委梁文傑副主委\n\n02:41.175 --> 03:08.285\n法律規定副署長說的是有單一而已真的敢做這樣不敢吧這個如果是依法行政的話根據我們九條之一的規定就是當以2004年為界如果在2004年以前取得台灣身份的陸配那他必須在六個月之內繳回他取消大陸身份的證明文件否則就會註銷台灣的身份\n\n03:10.816 --> 03:36.395\n那這個是九條之一的明確規定這沒有解釋的空間只是說這個九條之一從2004年到現在已經有20年的時間這20年的時間過去據我知道應該就是說如果有人檢舉說他沒有腳如果有人檢舉說他沒有腳那移民署會採取動作但是現在就是屬於一個比較\n\n03:41.824 --> 04:05.415\n根據我們的資料做一個比較全面性的查查跟了解那我請教副組長閉角沒有的話就是要註銷副組長講的是說有人檢舉的話就要依法行政那這20年來有沒有任何一件被你們註銷的有因為檢舉不註銷因為這樣的一個原因沒有繳交被註銷的\n\n04:10.152 --> 04:37.774\n有676人676個那你現在還有1萬多個你怎麼辦你現在我在看你現在給的三種辦法看起來是有的選在我看來每一條都行不通每一條都行不通為什麼這樣講呢你說去海基會去申請副本但是當年不是每一個人都是有走海基會的一個流程那你第二個說你親自到中國去辦聲明然後去公證\n\n04:39.558 --> 04:49.288\n這個講得很輕鬆啦有些人根本其實也未必敢回去有政治風險的問題身份敏感的話你叫他回去這個也有點強人所難第三個說拜託親戚來幫忙拜託聽起來聽起來覺得很有道理每一個省規定不一樣有的會刁難有的可能會方便一點\n\n05:01.055 --> 05:18.365\n那你這三條路看起來你說依法行政可是你事實上把人全部都卡在原地那你當事人怎麼辦我的意思就是說移民署你要去正視這個問題啦你這個補件不是問題啦那問題是上面這三種方法我看都不切實際\n\n05:19.426 --> 05:41.672\n那是不是可以重新盤點一下替代方案就是說有沒有可能啊你針對說這些早年來台已經定居多年而且這個修法已經20年了嘛那生活比較穩定的這類的一個族群你去設立特別的條款或者去簡化他的一個審查的一個機制比如說你去設置一個信賴保護條款\n\n05:42.412 --> 06:10.347\n對於居住一定年限以上的那沒有違法紀錄的那是否可以用竊解或其他的方式來做一個處理啦那不然喔你沒完沒了啦副主委跟你講說法律實的沒有解釋的空間我也不曉得這20年到底出了什麼狀況為什麼大家也不去執行是哪一個署長你的嫁嫁說那個賺到的臉罩臉沖的都有可能都有可能\n\n06:11.608 --> 06:26.474\n情勢總會有所變遷可是放在那邊的一個問題的話法律在這裡那你說又撤銷到六百多個那其他人怎麼辦那如果有人嫌棄的呢看那個人不算嫌棄那嫌棄就算衰啊大陸出名的又沒有事那你怎麼辦\n\n06:28.544 --> 06:53.024\n法務委員依據我們的統計目前歷年來獲准在台定居的陸配約有14萬餘人那我們清查的結果多數已經繳付上司原籍的證明現在你還有多少沒有還有1萬多所以我在跟你講說你這是走不出的三條路嘛\n\n06:53.837 --> 07:07.489\n你沒有辦法處理那些人我們會針對這些尚未繳交上資源及證明文件的或許他可能有因為前陣子的疫情或者他個人的因素比方說他的健康狀態身體\n\n07:10.271 --> 07:36.841\n這個都早就該做的啦早就該做的事我現在跟你講說好啦你這些都通知他的你也都依法行政的還是沒有我是在跟你講這個我們現在也跟委員報告我們現在的原因就是說如果民眾有無法實際上克服的這個困難沒有辦法順利取得所謂上司原籍證明的文件那移民署設有一個服務的電子信箱然後呢我們22個服務站\n\n07:38.843 --> 07:59.624\n也多開放讓這些民眾來反映說他的個案的問題我們多整這些問題陸委會跟海基會我們來研商如何來尋求一個合理妥適的一個解決方案你跟我們講一波啊沒辦法換話啦報告委員其實我們陸委會跟移民署最近都接到很多的陳情電話\n\n08:01.141 --> 08:29.318\n那有些的說他沒有辦法回去拿的理由我們聽起來是比較相對合理但是有些其實並不是那麼合理所以這些陳情的理由五花八門所以最後我們會跟移民署一起會商然後在哪些情況之下我們會認為說他的陳情是有理由的哪些是沒有理由的那這個我們都會來個別的進行幫忙謝謝\n\n08:31.328 --> 08:38.855\n好所以其實喔九條一氣子沒有解釋的空間啦沒有交期子就是撤銷啦可是你經過了這二十年喔\n\n08:39.830 --> 09:00.785\n你沒有去做的話剩下這一萬多個我們確實政府有責任你也必須啊這個確實用智慧把這個問題給處理掉了好不好好謝謝時間先暫停那我現在再請我們文傑副主委請留步還有國安局副局長好麻煩副局長\n\n09:10.595 --> 09:30.387\n我來請教兩位啦,就是說最近溫婕副主委應該知道台灣有一個很有名的歌手Tank,他寫了一些八年級生很喜歡聽的一些歌啦,像比如說專屬的天使啦,給我你的愛啦但是他因為遺傳心臟病,他不得不淡出演藝圈\n\n09:31.167 --> 09:49.000\n那有嘗試重出歌壇但是也不理想他在去年的十一月在中國完成了心肝這個同期的移植手術那前兩天他在個人的社群平台裡面表示感謝楚國然後並稱台灣這邊是一個台灣省這個聽起來其實有時候\n\n09:52.719 --> 10:09.734\n心裡頭還是一般人聽了還是怪怪的但是一個需要器官移植沒有去移植他必須要可能生命會喪失的人對他來講的話在這個節骨炎裡面叫他做些什麼我相信他都會去負荷可是問題\n\n10:11.495 --> 10:39.903\n從人道上來看的話這些都很正常可是在醫療上是不是讓這個統戰在醫療中無聲這樣的蔓延這個也值得去思考的問題那其實過去台灣我們也不擔心什麼叫醫療統戰因為我們這邊實在是我們的健保制度還有醫療的一個水準都非常的高可是我們台灣需要器官移植的人他就說你知不知道台獨有多少人\n\n10:42.608 --> 11:08.818\n跟我們報告這個數據我們沒有掌握等待器官移植的一萬一千人這一萬一千人裡面如果說叫我叫一般叫這些人為了他的生命去唱一首奪這個盆墨整個中國共產黨甚至於更來壓抑我們自己的台灣中華民國他會做\n\n11:11.681 --> 11:30.445\n這人之常情我認為他會做他要活命嘛所以人道之間這個也是很困難可是共產國家他這個器官的來源這確實不透明這是很大的一個問題那你接受了這個器官移植以後我相信絕大多數人會接受統戰這叫人性那這些怎麼辦呢\n\n11:34.684 --> 11:47.884\n換成你們的大人也好啦也說你們比較抱歉我們旁邊的人我們好朋友他是大人還是他自己要換器官女子他說你跟他說一下台灣剩餘是在外賣你跟他說我共產黨不好這樣你也做不夠這樣不好讓你換\n\n11:51.056 --> 12:06.885\n所以在死亡的面前,其實人都很渺小過去我們不怕,可是現在一萬一千多人,這你顧不顧得了?\n\n12:11.775 --> 12:40.400\n郭文貴報告那個如果我們國安單位大概都是以收集相關的一個情緒那你們沒有辦法我要跟你們說明一下碰到這種狀況這個立場不同的人會很生氣那我相信那一萬一千件以後還是會很多這個真的是醫療統戰這個它就會無聲這樣一直蔓延下去蔓延下去所以你說國安\n\n12:42.638 --> 12:52.664\n帽子很大可是碰到這種人性你也很困難你也沒辦法你可以兩手一攤你說我們再來研議你能這樣嗎有辦法嗎這個是一個議題啦也非常謝謝委員點出來了這相信面臨到這個問題我相信我們會尋求一個研議一個方式來處理啦\n\n13:11.069 --> 13:19.866\n好兩位請為那個召委抱歉最後再給我一個一分鐘的時間我請我們保護部部長還有司法院今天廳長有來今天廳長有來\n\n13:27.259 --> 13:46.181\n委員早我來請教最後一個問題啦就沒有問題要對不起趙委員因為趙委今天開了這樣的一個題目就是說我們這個言論自由是在司法實務中是不是真正存在他的界線在哪裡誰說的算其實本席的立場很簡單啦\n\n13:47.102 --> 13:58.438\n就是說言論自由當然在但問題是說他的界限啊不會是吳宗憲講的算不會我周恩雄講的算也不會法務部長講的算或者高官講的算那其實啊\n\n13:59.619 --> 14:24.252\n我們更講說不會是阿貓阿狗講的算那就是說啊你去看看大法官你去看看法律它的一個規範到最後都是要回歸到這裡嘛那我要請教的就是說其實我們從4至509號在講新聞自由445號重新回溯去看集會遊行避免言論的審查的自由還有4至617號這一些其實都是在講言論自由那\n\n14:25.427 --> 14:46.636\n今天本席不打算來重複論述這一些啦但請教兩位就是說就是言論自由跟國安發生衝突的時候我們司法跟檢查體系你們要如何去審查你們審查的標準又是什麼這很困難耶那現在大家在看這樣講就是說一個人本來就只有表達他政治上的一個意見\n\n14:48.495 --> 15:01.540\n但是現在社會上碰到一個問題你說主張統一看起來又是言論的一個自由可是如果講說武力動好煽動戰爭那這一些來看的話部長跟廳長你們認為這還單純的言論自由嗎\n\n15:07.151 --> 15:32.757\n這不事實上這確實是一個問題那4445跟644其實有跨一條線他說有明顯跟立即的一個危險的一個原則那另外最高法院109年台商是3695號刑事判決也是揭示說有明顯的立即危險原則但我想這是一個原則一個揭示那是不是要來再做一個\n\n15:35.317 --> 15:54.346\n明確立法來做一個定義那我想我們這邊我們會納入秀法的一個參考我的意思就是說你政府如果要對於人民的政治主張你要去做處罰的話這要採非常嚴格的標準法律你要非常的一個明確啦我剛剛為什麼要提出這樣子的問題出來\n\n15:55.467 --> 16:20.302\n就是說你以後碰到這些問題很多人在網路上一定會去做一個發表然後甚至於你現在沒有去做處理的話那你以後碰到的問題還會必須更多那所以本席提出具體的一個建議就是說你針對鼓吹戰爭宣傳你們要決定得很明確你如果稍微跟著鼓吹稍微跟著戰爭稍微跟著宣傳\n\n16:21.772 --> 16:50.215\n你總是要把那個定義把它給界定清楚啊你沒界定清楚的話法律又不明確啊不明確你說我不曉得該怎麼處罰那你就繼續蔓延那每一次發生這種事情的時候社會上大家又來討論法律明確性啊這個明確性的一個原則啊那本來就是法律人的一個要求社會大眾也這樣一個要求可是我們也擔心你沒有去講清楚的話\n\n16:51.107 --> 17:15.097\n變成說扯到國安啊大家變成對老百姓又產生一個寒產效應這也不對啊這也不對啊所以我建議喔我講到跌倒了你看這個議題多重要談到這個議題就馬上欸這個是地震喔欸有喔不是叫我不要問啊趙偉這樣叫我不要問啊欸叫我趙偉說叫我繼續啦我今天齁\n\n17:20.748 --> 17:22.016\n你如果說你模糊\n\n17:23.049 --> 17:51.031\n一天模糊那接下來要審查來來去去你會變成一種到最後後天你會變成噤聲啦這個其實都不是一個民主國家的一個正常的一個常態啦所以我要請教的就是說我們法務部跟司法院這個地方那是不是應該啊應該啊強化法律的一個明確性啊避免行政跟司法機關的過度的一個解釋聽著我來請教你的看法\n\n17:53.190 --> 18:13.349\n跟委員報告其實大法官也已經明確指出不是所有的言論都受到保障是還是可以用法律來加以限制的那只是需要符合比例原則跟明確性原則那至於怎麼樣來限制那這就是個別實體法的規範必須要符合這樣一個原則那司法院是站在\n\n18:14.450 --> 18:28.114\n最後是適用法律來審查這些法規範來加以在個案中適用所以我們尊重主管機關的立法決定跟貴院的立法形成的自由這樣我主張很簡單雖然我是執政黨的一個立委\n\n18:30.655 --> 18:55.961\n但是我認為審查政治的一個言論是要以民主價值來當核心而不是以國安的藉口來壓縮空間所以就必須法律讓它非常的一個明確你法律沒有明確的話沒完沒了啦沒完沒了所以我在這邊期許我們司法院我們法務部甚至於我們跟人權委員會這個地方我們趕快去做一個合作推動整個制度的改革跟立法的一個精進\n\n18:56.621 --> 19:21.213\n否則喔法律不明確大家開始都灰了造成司法機關動輒得咎開始辦一個暗欄的改公哎喲當成執政黨的一個打手這對你們也不好啊好不好這樣最基本的要求可以做到嗎謝謝委員贊成委員意見我們當作修法的重要參考我覺得你不贊成也不行一個人這樣做這最基本的常識啊好不好謝謝謝謝委員\n\n19:23.604 --> 19:36.184\n謝謝莊委員,莊委員後面非常感動而且認同,後面這一段下一位我們請林倩祺委員發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.679,"end":27.745,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請我們陸委會梁副主委麻煩梁副主委移民署來移民 內政部移民署副署長副署長"},{"start":30.507,"end":45.279,"text":"委員好副主委還有副書長好我想最近你們在清查陸配的一個資料要求去補交喪失中國夫妻的一個公證書這個在社會上也引起了絢爛大波"},{"start":46.055,"end":69.969,"text":"然後認為說這是不是因為亞亞岸才搞出來的一個政治上的一個動作所以我這個地方是不是請副署長你先來做一個說明你們到底這個動作是一個政治上的一個動作或者說向社會大眾來說明一下為什麼突然會有這個動作是 謝委員這事情不是突然在做一直持續在做這是首先先訓明的因為兩岸關係"},{"start":71.81,"end":98.292,"text":"是以單一戶籍為有序的一個交流依據所以在民國93年3月1日我們修正了兩岸關係條例的九條第九條之一裡面有規範要求台灣地區人民不得在大陸地區設有戶籍或領用大陸地區護照以避免雙重身份而造成權利異物重疊這個大家知道"},{"start":98.832,"end":113.784,"text":"這個大家知道 是啦 2004年有這樣的一個規定以後啊就這個修法的一個目的 那本來就是說你不要有雙重國籍 你也不要有雙重的一個身份那可是呢 我規定了以後啊你說要去叫嘛 證明說我已經註銷中國那邊的一個戶籍了"},{"start":123.96,"end":142.32,"text":"執行下來以後2004,20到2008又政黨輪替馬英九又幹了八年的總統,然後又到了蔡總統又幹了八年的總統那現在又到了賴總統,現在又開始了這二十年過了耶你們說他要叫,你們這個事情法律修法以後你們全部都沒有人動"},{"start":143.359,"end":154.913,"text":"或者說當初是什麼原因啊有的時候越來越多啊你現在怎麼辦沒有按照法律的規定說你如果沒有補銷的話你會把他的整個身份給註銷的是你趕快註銷你真的趕快註銷來來來 副主委梁文傑副主委"},{"start":161.175,"end":188.285,"text":"法律規定 副署長說的是有 單一而已真的敢做這樣 不敢吧這個如果是依法行政的話根據我們九條之一的規定就是當以2004年為界如果在2004年以前取得台灣身份的陸配那他必須在六個月之內繳回他取消大陸身份的證明文件否則就會註銷台灣的身份"},{"start":190.816,"end":216.395,"text":"那這個是九條之一的明確規定這沒有解釋的空間只是說這個九條之一從2004年到現在已經有20年的時間這20年的時間過去據我知道應該就是說如果有人檢舉說他沒有腳如果有人檢舉說他沒有腳那移民署會採取動作但是現在就是屬於一個比較"},{"start":221.824,"end":245.415,"text":"根據我們的資料做一個比較全面性的查查跟了解那我請教副組長閉角沒有的話就是要註銷副組長講的是說有人檢舉的話就要依法行政那這20年來有沒有任何一件被你們註銷的有因為檢舉不註銷因為這樣的一個原因沒有繳交被註銷的"},{"start":250.152,"end":277.774,"text":"有676人676個那你現在還有1萬多個你怎麼辦你現在我在看你現在給的三種辦法看起來是有的選在我看來每一條都行不通每一條都行不通為什麼這樣講呢你說去海基會去申請副本但是當年不是每一個人都是有走海基會的一個流程那你第二個說你親自到中國去辦聲明然後去公證"},{"start":279.558,"end":289.288,"text":"這個講得很輕鬆啦有些人根本其實也未必敢回去有政治風險的問題身份敏感的話你叫他回去這個也有點強人所難第三個說拜託親戚來幫忙拜託聽起來聽起來覺得很有道理每一個省規定不一樣有的會刁難有的可能會方便一點"},{"start":301.055,"end":318.365,"text":"那你這三條路看起來你說依法行政可是你事實上把人全部都卡在原地那你當事人怎麼辦我的意思就是說移民署你要去正視這個問題啦你這個補件不是問題啦那問題是上面這三種方法我看都不切實際"},{"start":319.426,"end":341.672,"text":"那是不是可以重新盤點一下替代方案就是說有沒有可能啊你針對說這些早年來台已經定居多年而且這個修法已經20年了嘛那生活比較穩定的這類的一個族群你去設立特別的條款或者去簡化他的一個審查的一個機制比如說你去設置一個信賴保護條款"},{"start":342.412,"end":370.347,"text":"對於居住一定年限以上的那沒有違法紀錄的那是否可以用竊解或其他的方式來做一個處理啦那不然喔你沒完沒了啦副主委跟你講說法律實的沒有解釋的空間我也不曉得這20年到底出了什麼狀況為什麼大家也不去執行是哪一個署長 你的嫁嫁說那個賺到的臉罩 臉沖的都有可能 都有可能"},{"start":371.608,"end":386.474,"text":"情勢總會有所變遷可是放在那邊的一個問題的話法律在這裡那你說又撤銷到六百多個那其他人怎麼辦那如果有人嫌棄的呢看那個人不算嫌棄那嫌棄就算衰啊大陸出名的又沒有事那你怎麼辦"},{"start":388.544,"end":413.024,"text":"法務委員 依據我們的統計 目前歷年來 獲准在台定居的陸配約有14萬餘人那我們清查的結果 多數已經繳付上司原籍的證明現在你還有多少沒有還有1萬多所以我在跟你講說 你這是走不出的三條路嘛"},{"start":413.837,"end":427.489,"text":"你沒有辦法處理那些人我們會針對這些尚未繳交上資源及證明文件的或許他可能有因為前陣子的疫情或者他個人的因素比方說他的健康狀態身體"},{"start":430.271,"end":456.841,"text":"這個都早就該做的啦早就該做的事我現在跟你講說好啦你這些都通知他的你也都依法行政的還是沒有我是在跟你講這個我們現在也跟委員報告我們現在的原因就是說如果民眾有無法實際上克服的這個困難沒有辦法順利取得所謂上司原籍證明的文件那移民署設有一個服務的電子信箱然後呢我們22個服務站"},{"start":458.843,"end":479.624,"text":"也多開放 讓這些民眾來反映說他的個案的問題我們多整這些問題 陸委會跟海基會 我們來研商如何來尋求一個合理妥適的一個解決方案你跟我們講一波啊 沒辦法換話啦報告委員 其實我們陸委會跟移民署最近都接到很多的陳情電話"},{"start":481.141,"end":509.318,"text":"那有些的說他沒有辦法回去拿的理由我們聽起來是比較相對合理但是有些其實並不是那麼合理所以這些陳情的理由五花八門所以最後我們會跟移民署一起會商然後在哪些情況之下我們會認為說他的陳情是有理由的哪些是沒有理由的那這個我們都會來個別的進行幫忙謝謝"},{"start":511.328,"end":518.855,"text":"好 所以其實喔九條一氣子沒有解釋的空間啦沒有交期子就是撤銷啦可是你經過了這二十年喔"},{"start":519.83,"end":540.785,"text":"你沒有去做的話 剩下這一萬多個 我們確實政府有責任你也必須啊 這個確實用智慧把這個問題給處理掉了 好不好好 謝謝 時間先暫停那我現在再請我們 文傑副主委請留步還有國安局副局長好 麻煩副局長"},{"start":550.595,"end":570.387,"text":"我來請教兩位啦,就是說最近溫婕副主委應該知道台灣有一個很有名的歌手Tank,他寫了一些八年級生很喜歡聽的一些歌啦,像比如說專屬的天使啦,給我你的愛啦但是他因為遺傳心臟病,他不得不淡出演藝圈"},{"start":571.167,"end":589,"text":"那有嘗試重出歌壇但是也不理想他在去年的十一月在中國完成了心肝這個同期的移植手術那前兩天他在個人的社群平台裡面表示感謝楚國然後並稱台灣這邊是一個台灣省這個聽起來其實有時候"},{"start":592.719,"end":609.734,"text":"心裡頭還是一般人聽了還是怪怪的但是一個需要器官移植沒有去移植他必須要可能生命會喪失的人對他來講的話在這個節骨炎裡面叫他做些什麼我相信他都會去負荷可是問題"},{"start":611.495,"end":639.903,"text":"從人道上來看的話這些都很正常可是在醫療上是不是讓這個統戰在醫療中無聲這樣的蔓延這個也值得去思考的問題那其實過去台灣我們也不擔心什麼叫醫療統戰因為我們這邊實在是我們的健保制度還有醫療的一個水準都非常的高可是我們台灣需要器官移植的人他就說你知不知道台獨有多少人"},{"start":642.608,"end":668.818,"text":"跟我們報告這個數據我們沒有掌握等待器官移植的一萬一千人這一萬一千人裡面如果說叫我叫一般叫這些人為了他的生命去唱一首奪這個盆墨整個中國共產黨甚至於更來壓抑我們自己的台灣中華民國他會做"},{"start":671.681,"end":690.445,"text":"這人之常情 我認為他會做 他要活命嘛所以人道之間 這個也是很困難可是共產國家他這個器官的來源 這確實不透明這是很大的一個問題那你接受了這個器官移植以後我相信絕大多數人會接受統戰 這叫人性那這些怎麼辦呢"},{"start":694.684,"end":707.884,"text":"換成你們的大人也好啦 也說你們比較抱歉 我們旁邊的人 我們好朋友 他是大人 還是他自己要換器官女子他說你跟他說一下台灣剩餘是在外賣 你跟他說我共產黨不好 這樣你也做不夠 這樣不好讓你換"},{"start":711.056,"end":726.885,"text":"所以在死亡的面前,其實人都很渺小過去我們不怕,可是現在一萬一千多人,這你顧不顧得了?"},{"start":731.775,"end":760.4,"text":"郭文貴報告 那個如果我們國安單位大概都是以收集相關的一個情緒那你們沒有辦法 我要跟你們說明一下碰到這種狀況這個立場不同的人會很生氣那我相信那一萬一千件以後還是會很多這個真的是醫療統戰這個它就會無聲這樣一直蔓延下去蔓延下去所以你說國安"},{"start":762.638,"end":772.664,"text":"帽子很大 可是碰到這種人性你也很困難你也沒辦法 你可以兩手一攤你說我們再來研議 你能這樣嗎 有辦法嗎這個是一個議題啦 也非常謝謝委員點出來了這相信 面臨到這個問題我相信我們會尋求一個 研議一個方式來處理啦"},{"start":791.069,"end":799.866,"text":"好 兩位請為那個召委 抱歉最後再給我一個一分鐘的時間我請我們保護部部長還有司法院今天廳長有來今天廳長有來"},{"start":807.259,"end":826.181,"text":"委員早我來請教最後一個問題啦就沒有問題要對不起趙委員因為趙委今天開了這樣的一個題目就是說我們這個言論自由是在司法實務中是不是真正存在他的界線在哪裡誰說的算其實本席的立場很簡單啦"},{"start":827.102,"end":838.438,"text":"就是說言論自由當然在但問題是說他的界限啊不會是吳宗憲講的算不會我周恩雄講的算也不會法務部長講的算或者高官講的算那其實啊"},{"start":839.619,"end":864.252,"text":"我們更講說不會是阿貓阿狗講的算那就是說啊 你去看看大法官 你去看看法律它的一個規範到最後都是要回歸到這裡嘛那我要請教的就是說 其實我們從4至509號在講新聞自由445號重新回溯去看集會遊行 避免言論的審查的自由還有4至617號 這一些其實都是在講言論自由那"},{"start":865.427,"end":886.636,"text":"今天本席不打算來重複論述這一些啦但請教兩位就是說就是言論自由跟國安發生衝突的時候我們司法跟檢查體系你們要如何去審查你們審查的標準又是什麼這很困難耶那現在大家在看這樣講就是說一個人本來就只有表達他政治上的一個意見"},{"start":888.495,"end":901.54,"text":"但是現在社會上碰到一個問題 你說主張統一看起來又是言論的一個自由可是如果講說武力動好 煽動戰爭那這一些來看的話 部長跟廳長你們認為這還單純的言論自由嗎"},{"start":907.151,"end":932.757,"text":"這不事實上這確實是一個問題那4445跟644其實有跨一條線他說有明顯跟立即的一個危險的一個原則那另外最高法院109年台商是3695號刑事判決也是揭示說有明顯的立即危險原則但我想這是一個原則一個揭示那是不是要來再做一個"},{"start":935.317,"end":954.346,"text":"明確立法來做一個定義那我想我們這邊我們會納入秀法的一個參考我的意思就是說你政府如果要對於人民的政治主張你要去做處罰的話這要採非常嚴格的標準法律你要非常的一個明確啦我剛剛為什麼要提出這樣子的問題出來"},{"start":955.467,"end":980.302,"text":"就是說你以後碰到這些問題很多人在網路上一定會去做一個發表然後甚至於你現在沒有去做處理的話那你以後碰到的問題還會必須更多那所以本席提出具體的一個建議就是說你針對鼓吹戰爭宣傳你們要決定得很明確你如果稍微跟著鼓吹 稍微跟著戰爭 稍微跟著宣傳"},{"start":981.772,"end":1010.215,"text":"你總是要把那個定義把它給界定清楚啊你沒界定清楚的話法律又不明確啊不明確你說我不曉得該怎麼處罰那你就繼續蔓延那每一次發生這種事情的時候社會上大家又來討論法律明確性啊這個明確性的一個原則啊那本來就是法律人的一個要求社會大眾也這樣一個要求可是我們也擔心你沒有去講清楚的話"},{"start":1011.107,"end":1035.097,"text":"變成說扯到國安啊大家變成對老百姓又產生一個寒產效應這也不對啊這也不對啊所以我建議 喔我講到跌倒了你看這個議題多重要談到這個議題就馬上 欸這個是地震喔欸有喔不是叫我不要問啊 趙偉這樣叫我不要問啊欸叫我 趙偉說叫我繼續啦我今天齁"},{"start":1040.748,"end":1042.016,"text":"你如果說你模糊"},{"start":1043.049,"end":1071.031,"text":"一天模糊那接下來要審查來來去去你會變成一種到最後後天你會變成噤聲啦這個其實都不是一個民主國家的一個正常的一個常態啦所以我要請教的就是說我們法務部跟司法院這個地方那是不是應該啊 應該啊強化法律的一個明確性啊避免行政跟司法機關的過度的一個解釋聽著 我來請教你的看法"},{"start":1073.19,"end":1093.349,"text":"跟委員報告其實大法官也已經明確指出不是所有的言論都受到保障是還是可以用法律來加以限制的那只是需要符合比例原則跟明確性原則那至於怎麼樣來限制那這就是個別實體法的規範必須要符合這樣一個原則那司法院是站在"},{"start":1094.45,"end":1108.114,"text":"最後是適用法律來審查這些法規範來加以在個案中適用所以我們尊重主管機關的立法決定跟貴院的立法形成的自由這樣我主張很簡單雖然我是執政黨的一個立委"},{"start":1110.655,"end":1135.961,"text":"但是我認為審查政治的一個言論是要以民主價值來當核心而不是以國安的藉口來壓縮空間所以就必須法律讓它非常的一個明確你法律沒有明確的話沒完沒了啦沒完沒了所以我在這邊期許我們司法院我們法務部甚至於我們跟人權委員會這個地方我們趕快去做一個合作推動整個制度的改革跟立法的一個精進"},{"start":1136.621,"end":1161.213,"text":"否則喔 法律不明確 大家開始都灰了造成司法機關動輒得咎 開始辦一個暗欄的改公哎喲 當成執政黨的一個打手 這對你們也不好啊好不好 這樣最基本的要求可以做到嗎謝謝委員 贊成委員意見 我們當作修法的重要參考我覺得你不贊成也不行 一個人這樣做 這最基本的常識啊好不好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":1163.604,"end":1176.184,"text":"謝謝莊委員,莊委員後面非常感動而且認同,後面這一段下一位我們請林倩祺委員發言"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":326,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（9時37分）謝謝主席。有請陸委會梁副主委、內政部移民署副署長。"],["主席：麻煩梁副主委及副署長。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：副主委、副署長好。最近你們在清查陸配的資料，要求補交喪失中國戶籍的公證書，在社會上引起軒然大波。有人認為這是不是因為亞亞案才搞出來的政治動作？我想請副署長先做說明，你們這個動作到底是不是一個政治上的動作？或者是向社會大眾說明一下，為什麼突然會有這個動作？"],["陳副署長建成：謝謝委員，這個事情並不是突然在做，而是一直持續在做，這是首先要先敘明的，因為兩岸關係是以單一戶籍為有序的交流依據，所以在民國93年3月1日，我們修正了兩岸關係條例第九條之一，條文裡面有規範，要求臺灣地區人民不得在大陸地區設有戶籍或領用大陸地區護照，以避免雙重身分而造成權利義務重疊或衝突……"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個大家都知道，這個大家都知道。"],["陳副署長建成：這也是為了維繫兩岸人民往來秩序的基礎。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦，2004年有這樣的規定以後，且修法的目的本來就是希望這些人不要有雙重國籍，也不要有雙重的身分，可是在你們規定了以後，你說要叫他繳交文件來證明他已經註銷中國那邊的戶籍了，可是2004年實行下來以後，到了2008年又再度政黨輪替，馬英九又幹了8年的總統，然後到了蔡總統又幹了8年的總統，那現在又到了賴總統，現在又開始了，這樣20年過去了耶，現在你們要求他要繳交文件，可是這件事情在法律修法以後，你們全部都沒有人動，或者說當初是什麼原因，造成有這種情況的人越來越多，你現在怎麼辦？"],["陳副署長建成：沒有，跟委員報告……"],["莊委員瑞雄：按照法律的規定，如果他沒有補交的話，你會把他整個身分給註銷耶！"],["陳副署長建成：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你敢給他註銷？你真的敢給他註銷？請教梁文傑副主委，法律規定依照副署長的說法是有喔，單一而已喔，但你們真的敢去做嗎？不敢吧？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：這個部分如果是依法行政的話，根據第九條之一的規定，就是以2004年為界，如果在2004年以前取得臺灣身分的陸配，那他必須在六個月之內繳回他取消大陸身分的證明文件，否則就會註銷臺灣的身分，這個是第九條之一的明確規定，這沒有解釋的空間。只是說，第九條之一這個條文從2004年到現在已經有20年的時間，這20年的時間，過去據我知道，如果有人檢舉說他沒有繳，那移民署會採取動作，但是現在就是屬於一個比較……根據我們的資料去做一個比較全面性的查察跟了解。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那我請教副署長，法律規定必繳，沒有的話就是要註銷，副主委講的是說，有人檢舉的話就要依法行政，那這20年來有沒有任何一件被你們註銷的？有因為檢舉而註銷的嗎？因為這樣一個原因沒有繳交被註銷的。"],["陳副署長建成：有676人。"],["莊委員瑞雄：676個？"],["陳副署長建成：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那現在還有一萬多個，你怎麼辦？現在我在看喔，你現在給的三種辦法，看起來是有得選啦，但在我看來，每一條都行不通啦，每一條都行不通！為什麼這樣講呢？你說去海基會申請副本，但是當年也不是每一個人都是走海基會的流程啊；第二個是可以親自到中國去辦聲明，然後去公證，這個講得很輕鬆啦，有些人其實也未必敢回去，又有政治風險的問題，身分敏感的話，你叫他回去，這也有點強人所難；第三個是拜託親戚來幫忙，拜託人去申請聽起來會覺得很有道理，可是每一個省的規定都不一樣，有的會刁難，有的可能會方便一點。所以你這三條路看起來，你說依法行政，可是你實際上是把人全部都卡在原地，請問當事人怎麼辦？我的意思是說移民署必須要去正視這個問題啦，你這個補件不是問題，問題是上面這三種方法，我看都不切實際，那是不是可以重新盤點一下替代方案？就是說有沒有可能針對這一些早年來臺、已經定居多年的，而且這個修法已經20年了嘛，針對生活比較穩定的這類族群，你去設立特別的條款，或者去簡化他的審查機制，譬如說你去設置一個信賴保護條款，對於居住一定年限以上且沒有違法紀錄的，是否可以用切結或其他的方式來做處理？不然的話你會沒完沒了啦。副主委跟你講說法律是死的，沒有解釋的空間，我也不曉得這20年到底出了什麼狀況，為什麼大家都不去執行？是哪一個署長「假𠢕」，認為這個規定要去執行過於敏感，不用去執行，都有可能。然而情勢總會有所變遷，可是放在那邊成為一個問題的話，法律在這裡，你說已經撤銷掉六百多個，那其他人怎麼辦？如果有人檢舉呢？看那個人不爽就去檢舉，那個被檢舉的人就算是他倒楣嗎？但住在他左鄰右舍的人卻又沒事，那你怎麼辦？"],["陳副署長建成：報告委員，依據我們的統計，目前，歷年來獲准在臺定居的陸配約有十四萬餘人，我們清查的結果，多數均已經繳附喪失原籍的證明。"],["莊委員瑞雄：現在還有多少人沒有繳交？還有多少人沒有？一萬多？"],["陳副署長建成：還有一萬多。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我才會跟你講說，你這是走不出的三條路嘛，你沒有辦法處理那些人嘛。"],["陳副署長建成：是，我們會針對這些尚未繳交喪失原籍證明文件的，或許他可能有因為前一陣子的疫情，或者他個人的因素，比方說他的健康狀態、身體……"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個是早就該做的啦，早就該做的事，所以我現在跟你講說，好，這些人你們都通知他了，你也都依法行政，但還是沒有繳交，我是在跟你說這個啦！"],["陳副署長建成：跟委員報告，我們現在的研議是，如果民眾有實際上無法克服的困難，沒有辦法順利取得所謂喪失原籍的證明文件，移民署設有一個服務的電子信箱……"],["莊委員瑞雄：然後呢？"],["陳副署長建成：我們22個服務站也都開放讓這些民眾來反映他的個案問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，但結論呢？"],["陳副署長建成：我們蒐整這些問題後……"],["莊委員瑞雄：如果還是沒有怎麼辦？"],["陳副署長建成：我們會跟陸委會及海基會共同來研商如何尋求一個合理妥適的解決方案。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你跟我說老半天了，我沒聽到任何一個可行的方法啊。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：報告委員，其實陸委會跟移民署最近都接到很多的陳情電話，有些人說他沒有辦法回去拿的理由，我們聽起來是相對合理，但是有些其實並不是那麼合理，這些陳情的理由其實五花八門，所以最後我們會跟移民署一起會商，決定在哪些情況之下，我們會認為他的陳情是有理由的，哪些是沒有理由的，這個我們都會個別的來進行幫忙，謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，所以第九條之一其實沒有解釋的空間啦，沒有繳交其實就是要撤銷啦，可是經過了這20年，你沒有去做的話，剩下這一萬多個人，我們政府確實是有責任，你也確實必須用智慧去把這個問題給處理掉，好不好？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["陳副署長建成：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝。時間先暫停，我現在要請教國安局副局長，文傑副主委請先留步。"],["主席：麻煩副局長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我來請教一下兩位，這件事文傑副主委應該知道，臺灣有一個很有名的歌手ANK，他寫了一些八零年代的人、八年級生很喜歡聽的歌啦，比如說專屬天使、給我你的愛，但是他因為遺傳心臟病不得不淡出演藝圈，後來雖有嘗試要重出歌壇，但是也不理想。他在去年的11月在中國完成心肝同期移植手術，前兩天他在個人的社群平臺裡面表示感謝祖國，並稱臺灣這邊是臺灣省，這個聽起來其實有時候心裡頭，一般人聽了還是怪怪的啦，但是對於一個需要器官移植的人，如果沒有去移植他的生命可能會喪失的人，對他來講，在這個節骨眼，無論叫他做些什麼，我相信他都會去附和啦。但問題是從人道上來看，這些都很正常，可是在醫療上，是不是讓統戰在醫療中無聲的蔓延？這個也是值得去思考的問題啦。其實過去在臺灣我們也不擔心什麼叫醫療統戰，因為我們這邊，說實在的，我們的健保制度，還有醫療的水準都非常高，可是臺灣需要器官移植的人，請問國安局知道大約有多少人嗎？"],["黃副局長明昭：跟委員報告，這個數據我們沒有掌握。"],["莊委員瑞雄：等待器官移植的有1萬1,000人，這1萬1,000人裡面，如果說叫這些人，為了他的生命，去唱一首多promote整個中國共產黨，甚至於更壓抑我們自己的臺灣、中華民國，他會做喔！這是人之常情，我認為他會做，他要活命嘛！所以人道之間有時候是很困難的。可是共產國家的器官來源確實不透明，這是很大的一個問題，你接受了這個器官移植以後，我相信絕大多數人會接受統戰，這叫人性，那這些怎麼辦呢？換成是你們的長輩好了，這麼說比較不好意思，就是我們旁邊的人、我們的好朋友、自己或長輩要器官移植，他要你說臺灣省有多差，要你說共產黨有多好，如果你做不到，他就不讓你換，我想10個有9個，說不定10個有10個全部都表示願意做，所以在死亡的面前，人都是很渺小的。過去我們不怕，可是現在有一萬一千多人，國安局可以有辦法怎麼樣嗎？"],["黃副局長明昭：跟委員報告，國安單位大概都是以蒐集相關的情訊……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們沒辦法怎麼樣啦！我是要你們說明，碰到這種狀況，立場不同的人會很生氣，但我相信那一萬一千件以後還會更多，這個真的是醫療統戰，它就會無聲的一直蔓延下去，所以說，國安的帽子很大，可是碰到人性問題，你也很困難、你也沒有辦法，只能兩手一攤，表示再來研議，你就只能這樣而已，不是嗎？有辦法怎麼樣嗎？"],["黃副局長明昭：這是一個議題啦！非常謝謝委員點出來，面臨到這個問題時，我相信我們會尋求、研議一個方式來處理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，兩位請回。召委，不好意思，最後再給我1分鐘時間，我請法務部部長，還有司法院的廳長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我來請教最後一個問題，沒有問一下對不起召委，因為召委今天安排了這樣一個題目，就是言論自由在司法實務中，是不是真正存在？它的界線在哪裡？誰說了算？其實本席的立場很簡單，言論自由當然在，但問題是它的界線不會是吳宗憲講得算，不會是我莊瑞雄講得算，也不會是法務部長講的算，或者高官講的算，更不會是阿貓、阿狗講的算，而是要去看看大法官的解釋、看看法律的規範，到最後都要回歸到這裡嘛！","我要請教的是，釋字第509號講的是新聞自由，第445號重新回溯去看集會遊行、避免言論審查的自由，還有釋字第617號等，這些其實都是在講言論自由，今天本席不打算重複論述這一些，但要請教兩位，言論自由跟國安發生衝突的時候，司法和檢察體系要如何審查？審查的標準又是什麼？這很困難咧！現在大家看到的是，一個人本來就只是表達他政治上的一個意見，但是現在社會上又碰到一個問題，譬如你主張統一，看起來是言論自由，可是如果講武力恫嚇、煽動戰爭的，部長、廳長，你們認為這還是單純的言論自由嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：事實上，這部分的確是一個問題，釋字第445號跟第644號其實有畫一條線，就是有明顯跟立即的危險原則，另外，最高法院109年台上字第3695號刑事判決，也揭示說明有明顯而立即危險原則，但我想這是一個原則、一個揭示，是不是要明確立法再來定義，我們會納入修法的參考。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我的意思是，政府如果要對人民的政治主張處罰的話，要採非常嚴格的標準，法律要非常明確，我剛剛為什麼提出這樣的問題來？就是以後碰到這些問題，很多人在網路上一定會有所發表，甚至於如果你現在沒有處理的話，以後碰到的問題還會更多，所以本席提出具體建議，針對鼓吹戰爭、宣傳，你們要定得很明確，什麼叫做鼓吹？什麼叫做戰爭？什麼叫做宣傳？你總是要把定義界定清楚，如果沒界定清楚，法律又不明確，你就不曉得該怎麼處罰，那就只有繼續蔓延，每一次發生這種事情的時候，社會上大家又來討論。我想法律明確性原則本來就是法律人的要求，社會大眾也有這樣的要求，我們很擔心如果沒有講清楚的話，變成扯到國安問題，對老百姓又產生寒蟬效應，這也不對！所以我建議……喔！我講到地震耶！你看，這個議題多重要，談到這個議題就地震了！喔！這是地震喔！會搖喔！是叫我不要問了嗎？召委，這樣是叫我不要問了嗎？"],["主席：繼續啦！處變不驚啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：召委叫我繼續啦！如果很模糊，那接下來就要審查，來來去去，到最後會變成噤聲，這其實都不是一個正常民主國家的常態，所以我要請教法務部跟司法院，在這個部分，是不是應該強化法律的明確性，避免行政跟司法機關的過度解釋？廳長，我請教你的看法。"],["程廳長怡怡：跟委員報告，大法官其實已經明確指出不是所有言論都受到保障，還是可以用法律來加以限制，只是需要符合比例原則跟明確性原則，至於怎麼樣限制，這就是個別實體法的規範必須要符合這樣的原則，而司法院站在最後適用法律來審查這些法規範在個案中的適用，所以我們尊重主管機關的立法決定跟貴院的立法形成自由。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我的主張很簡單，雖然我是執政黨的立委，但我認為審查政治的言論要以民主價值為核心，而不是以國安的藉口來壓縮空間，所以必須讓法律非常明確，法律沒有明確的話，就沒完沒了，所以在這邊期許司法院、法務部，甚至是人權委員會，大家趕快合作推動整個制度的改革跟立法的精進，否則法律不明確，大家就開始議論，造成司法機關動輒得咎，只要開始辦一個案子，人家就把你們當成是執政黨的打手，這對你們也不好，好不好？這最基本的要求可以做到吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員……"],["莊委員瑞雄：可以嗎？我這樣說，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：贊成委員意見，我們當作修法的重要參考。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個你不贊成也不行，一定要做的，這最基本的常識啊！好不好？謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。莊委員後面說的這一段，我非常感動，也非常認同。","下一位請林倩綺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","莊瑞雄","林倩綺","王義川","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","許宇甄","羅智強","張啓楷"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育\n部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相\n關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00004"}}}