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198.869, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 201.092, \"end\": 213.995, \"text\": \"他在分享李玉典演書的時候分享很多說李玉典他是現任的某個理事長一起當理事等等看起來他們是相當的熟悉所以就用黃許榮他跟台商的身分來跟吳世元、邱世元他們來做接洽\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 201.092, \"end\": 201.672, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 201.672, \"end\": 201.912, \"score\": 0.717}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 201.912, \"end\": 202.172, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"享\", \"start\": 202.172, \"end\": 202.412, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"李\", \"start\": 202.412, \"end\": 202.552, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"玉\", \"start\": 202.552, \"end\": 202.772, \"score\": 0.738}, {\"word\": \"典\", \"start\": 202.772, \"end\": 202.972, \"score\": 0.691}, {\"word\": \"演\", \"start\": 202.972, \"end\": 203.373, \"score\": 0.737}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 203.373, \"end\": 203.693, \"score\": 0.685}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 203.693, \"end\": 204.293, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 204.293, 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{\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 208.114, \"end\": 208.814, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 208.814, \"end\": 208.994, \"score\": 0.724}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 208.994, \"end\": 209.394, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 209.394, \"end\": 209.654, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 209.654, \"end\": 209.994, \"score\": 0.649}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 209.994, \"end\": 210.174, \"score\": 0.611}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 210.174, \"end\": 210.594, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 210.594, \"end\": 210.814, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 210.814, \"end\": 211.074, \"score\": 0.616}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 211.074, \"end\": 211.315, \"score\": 0.668}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 211.315, \"end\": 211.515, \"score\": 0.702}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 211.515, \"end\": 211.955, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 211.955, \"end\": 212.135, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"熟\", \"start\": 212.135, \"end\": 212.435, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"悉\", \"start\": 212.435, \"end\": 212.975, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 212.975, \"end\": 212.995, \"score\": 0.006}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 212.995, \"end\": 213.015, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 213.015, \"end\": 213.115, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 213.115, \"end\": 213.135, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"黃\"}, {\"word\": \"許\", \"start\": 213.135, \"end\": 213.155, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"榮\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 213.155, \"end\": 213.215, \"score\": 0.24}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 213.215, \"end\": 213.235, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 213.235, \"end\": 213.255, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 213.255, \"end\": 213.355, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 213.355, \"end\": 213.375, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"身\", \"start\": 213.375, \"end\": 213.395, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 213.395, \"end\": 213.415, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 213.415, \"end\": 213.435, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"世\", \"start\": 213.435, \"end\": 213.475, \"score\": 0.374}, {\"word\": \"元\", \"start\": 213.475, \"end\": 213.495, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"邱\", \"start\": 213.495, \"end\": 213.675, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"世\", \"start\": 213.675, \"end\": 213.695, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"元\", \"start\": 213.695, \"end\": 213.935, \"score\": 0.644}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 213.935, \"end\": 213.955, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 213.955, \"end\": 213.975, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 213.975, \"end\": 213.995, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"洽\"}]}, {\"start\": 225.638, \"end\": 228.039, \"text\": \"那再來呢 就到了這個吳尚宇這個地方吳尚宇呢 他最重要的是這個吳恥榮他透過這個關係又接觸到了這個吳尚宇透過邱氏緣介紹了吳尚宇那吳尚宇呢 這個呢 是總統府的姿意\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 225.638, \"end\": 225.778, \"score\": 0.684}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 225.778, \"end\": 225.798, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 225.798, \"end\": 225.818, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 225.818, \"end\": 225.938, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 225.938, \"end\": 225.958, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 225.958, \"end\": 225.978, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"尚\", \"start\": 225.978, \"end\": 225.998, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"宇\", \"start\": 225.998, \"end\": 226.098, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 226.098, \"end\": 226.118, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 226.118, \"end\": 226.138, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"尚\", \"start\": 226.138, \"end\": 226.158, 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\"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 226.658, \"end\": 226.678, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"觸\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 226.678, \"end\": 226.698, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 226.698, \"end\": 226.718, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"尚\", \"start\": 226.718, \"end\": 226.818, \"score\": 0.648}, {\"word\": \"宇\", \"start\": 226.818, \"end\": 226.838, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"透\", \"start\": 226.838, \"end\": 226.859, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"邱\", \"start\": 226.859, \"end\": 227.139, \"score\": 0.552}, {\"word\": \"氏\", \"start\": 227.139, \"end\": 227.159, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"緣\"}, {\"word\": \"介\", \"start\": 227.159, \"end\": 227.339, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"紹\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 227.339, \"end\": 227.359, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"尚\", \"start\": 227.359, \"end\": 227.379, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"宇\", 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\"那此時呢這個共諜就滲透到總統府來了他是從文化總會進來的跟著李厚慶一直也是李厚慶一直是民進黨相當核心的人物所以才有辦法被聘為總統府辦公室的姿意那最麻煩的事情是呢那他在112年8月12號到112年8月18號隨同賴清德副總統\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 244.005, \"end\": 244.245, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"此\", \"start\": 244.245, \"end\": 244.646, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 244.646, \"end\": 245.046, \"score\": 0.764}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 245.046, \"end\": 245.927, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"諜\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 245.927, \"end\": 246.127, \"score\": 0.739}, {\"word\": \"滲\"}, {\"word\": \"透\", \"start\": 246.127, \"end\": 246.327, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 246.327, \"end\": 246.948, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 246.948, \"end\": 247.348, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 247.348, \"end\": 247.849, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 247.849, \"end\": 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\"我\", \"start\": 935.653, \"end\": 935.773, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 935.773, \"end\": 935.933, \"score\": 0.723}, {\"word\": \"詮\"}, {\"word\": \"釋\"}, {\"word\": \"喔\", \"start\": 935.933, \"end\": 935.953, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,011 --> 00:00:07,121\n謝謝主席我們請國安局局長還有我們這個調查局局長也一起好了\n\n2\n00:00:11,874 --> 00:00:38,493\n好謝謝主席薛委員早好早安第一個議題我要談的是匪諜就在總統府我們一直在外交國防委員會裡面國安局的夜報當中我們都不斷地在講匪諜匪諜匪諜我們要怎麼樣來克制跟抓到這些匪諜都是我們一直在談論的話題可是我們現在發現這一次總共有四名被告而且可能還有人正在被調查當中\n\n3\n00:00:39,914 --> 00:00:59,487\n包含這個游錫坤院長辦公室之前的這個助理楚聖聖楚英之外請問還有哪一些關係人因為國安涉及相關的法律正在被羈押或者是說那受到這個相關的影響因為有些個人還在偵辦當中我們實在不方便公開討論所以好問你邱氏緣有沒有\n\n4\n00:01:04,704 --> 00:01:18,927\n沒有他已經在偵辦過程當中對啊沒有我就問你有沒有邱局長也有在講那個刑事控訴法我們是不適合對外來說明這些案情的所以邱士文沒有我們沒有辦法說明案情那吳尚宇有沒有\n\n5\n00:01:19,622 --> 00:01:44,833\n沒有辦法說明案件黃許榮有沒有已經在偵辦的案件不適合公開說明所以已經在北檢二月中旬發動搜索傳訊邱吳黃三個人之後認為范嫻重大有串證之餘向法院深壓獲准甚則在約談後以二十萬交保請問一下調查局這邊是否有這件事情\n\n6\n00:01:47,513 --> 00:02:01,581\n包委員您剛已經說了那相關的內容我們就沒辦法評論那它是屬於國安相關的議題嗎是一個犯罪的案件一個犯罪的案件但不見得是國安的議題這個我沒辦法說明\n\n7\n00:02:02,321 --> 00:02:14,185\n你看你們碰到有其他單位的共諜的時候你們講得很快匪諜就在總統府的時候大家就都不評論了每一個人都說不知道每一個人都說哎呀這個我們不能說明來我們看一下好我們看一下這個人呢大家現在都知道他是共諜了然後呢20萬就能夠交保\n\n8\n00:02:23,789 --> 00:02:35,404\n我們看交保的金額柯文哲第一次三千萬第二次七千萬鄭文燦五百一千二兩千八張顯耀也是被捲入所謂的國安相關的事件是一百萬我們來看一下這個關係圖喔好\n\n9\n00:02:39,048 --> 00:02:57,686\n邱士源他是民進黨的黨工也是呢台灣民主學院的副主任在2023年初的時候離開了黨中央那他呢政治欠金捐款的對象包括了民進黨蔡英文陳亭霏跟黃真玲那他有領取民進黨的薪資2019年到2020年也是領取蔡英文總統的這個競選資金\n\n10\n00:03:04,352 --> 00:03:18,869\n那另外呢他也透過這個我們剛剛講的是邱士源中間這個人他也透過另外一名台商黃曲榮根據李語典的說法呢他只是做文宣的工作可是黃曲榮這個黃曲榮左下角\n\n11\n00:03:21,092 --> 00:03:33,995\n他在分享李玉典演書的時候分享很多說李玉典他是現任的某個理事長一起當理事等等看起來他們是相當的熟悉所以就用黃許榮他跟台商的身分來跟吳世元、邱世元他們來做接洽\n\n12\n00:03:45,638 --> 00:03:48,039\n那再來呢就到了這個吳尚宇這個地方吳尚宇呢他最重要的是這個吳恥榮他透過這個關係又接觸到了這個吳尚宇透過邱氏緣介紹了吳尚宇那吳尚宇呢這個呢是總統府的姿意\n\n13\n00:04:04,005 --> 00:04:23,163\n那此時呢這個共諜就滲透到總統府來了他是從文化總會進來的跟著李厚慶一直也是李厚慶一直是民進黨相當核心的人物所以才有辦法被聘為總統府辦公室的姿意那最麻煩的事情是呢那他在112年8月12號到112年8月18號隨同賴清德副總統\n\n14\n00:04:30,149 --> 00:04:49,166\n出訪巴拉圭所以他可能可以拿到的是外交部出國計畫的執行報告表可能是這樣子我要問的事情是除了這幾個人現在正在被調查當中之外還有沒有其他被調查的嫌疑人\n\n15\n00:04:49,887 --> 00:05:14,289\n因為在調查當中的案件我們不可能來公開說明所以好那我告訴你其實你們還有另外一個人呢你們應該要去調查的叫做何仁傑我們目前都還沒有看到他的名字但是呢這個人據說也在被調查當中大地震你看講到這個匪諜大地震就來了這個好我繼續講\n\n16\n00:05:16,591 --> 00:05:34,780\n他呢是新境界文教基金會的幕僚外交部北美司的專員不僅有綠營的背景也有公務員的身份甚至傳出他可能曾經是吳釗燮的秘書那請問這個人是不是有以上的身份\n\n17\n00:05:36,941 --> 00:06:00,502\n這是委員自己的評論是不是沒有我都還沒有說我只問他是不是新境界文教基金會的幕僚外交部北美司的專員然後呢他曾經是不是吳釗燮的秘書這三件事情而已跟他是否有有沒有這個是所謂的共點沒有關聯啊我只問這三件事情而已委員在播放這些資料跟照片可能還是要注意一下各自的問題\n\n18\n00:06:01,420 --> 00:06:26,637\n沒有啊這都是網路公開的啊還是要注意一下我提醒你還是要注意一下因為有些資料是錯誤的這都外交部提供外交部網站上的那你們外交部是不是要注意一下沒有有些資料這是外交部的網站上面IEAT提供然後呢右邊是新境界文化小組國防政策小組的2015年的5月報告提供完全都是你上網可以看到的\n\n19\n00:06:26,957 --> 00:06:47,395\n所以如果你覺得應該要去注意一下他所謂的個資是不是要跟這兩個公開的幹部去溝通而不是我我在網路上查到的資訊不就是公開資訊嗎我在講這一位我們都沒有看到他的名字但是據說他是被抓到說在刺探帛琉的情報所以我要請國安局也要針對這個部分來進行調查\n\n20\n00:06:50,077 --> 00:07:10,576\n再來第二個主題我們要講的是大罷免大間諜剛才羅美玲委員已經講了這個所謂的馬修楚勝英他在民進黨裡面相當的有人員然後他的代號綽號叫做馬修為了取得民進黨的信任他還主動的參與罷免案\n\n21\n00:07:12,938 --> 00:07:31,492\n然後去罷免廖先祥委員那作為志工其實他的身份是共諜然後呢擔任過很多民進黨代表的助理去刺探情報從2019年到2024年都在民進黨的辦公室裡面任職一共服務過八個民代其中能夠接觸到\n\n22\n00:07:32,172 --> 00:07:55,067\n機密資料的是從2022年開始服務過的可能接觸到機密資料的包含游錫坤前院長然後羅智政委員跟羅美玲委員他都是屬於國防外交委員會的想要去探測國家機密的意圖相當明顯為什麼他只要20萬就能夠交保\n\n23\n00:07:57,267 --> 00:08:14,221\n我們應該是對於所謂的共諜匪諜用最嚴格的方式然後來管控他為什麼剛剛連羅美玲委員她都已經輸了她也不知道要怎麼審核這些人為什麼我們20萬就讓她交保了這部分我們國安單位我們尊重審理機關法院相關的裁決\n\n24\n00:08:14,901 --> 00:08:42,551\nOK好再來我要繼續講那我們可以看到這個楚勝英就被疑似被認為共諜的這個楚勝英他跟這個曹新成的關係可以說相當好為什麼呢因為他們要一起罷免廖先祥所以呢曹新成他特別講他特別講到什麼呢他特別講到說徐巧欣王宏威跟羅志強我們三個人我們是中共的地下黨員\n\n25\n00:08:43,971 --> 00:09:10,672\n好來我給大家看你看不清楚沒關係但是呢他主要講到的是我跟王宏威還有羅志強跟傅坤琪是中共地下黨員那我必須要講如果徐巧欣是中共的地下黨員國安局應該要立刻對我進行調查也不需要去罷免了因為我們有國安武法可以立刻就用反滲透法的相關法律抓去坐牢\n\n26\n00:09:11,292 --> 00:09:16,595\n那如果不是是這些寫文章的人在造謠也應該要針對這個相關的調查進行澄清還我本人一個清白因為我是在外交國防委員會的我們會見到一些機密性的資料那如果真的是地下黨員的話對國家的影響巨大那此類傳聞是不是就不是我們需要一個答案請問我們局長的看法是什麼\n\n27\n00:09:40,569 --> 00:10:02,317\n我想對於一些涉及到可能共諜案的人士就我們國安情報機關或檢調機關我們比較重視的是他有沒有哪些的犯行以及他的犯行有沒有符合我們法律的要件對於這些人他的政治的言論或政治的活動這不是我們國安單位發出的作用我要問一個立法委員他能不能夠做中共地下黨員\n\n28\n00:10:05,226 --> 00:10:15,301\n這部分委員要不要自己去跟外界來做一些說明我問你的問題是一個立法委員如果他同時是中共的地下黨員的話\n\n29\n00:10:17,259 --> 00:10:40,999\n假如這是假設性的問題假設性的問題沒有有可能是真的啊你怎麼知道有沒有人被滲透啊但假如真的有這樣的狀況的話我們當然會啟動我們相關查查是嘛你會啟動國安無法嘛對不對當然要抓起來啊我們在外交國防委員會裡面接觸到這麼多機密的資訊然後呢他是中共的地下黨員然後呢他涉嫌去刺探做組織去販賣情報給中共\n\n30\n00:10:44,562 --> 00:10:53,100\n那這難道不用抓起來嗎難道不用關起來嗎國安單位難道不用調查嗎另一方面委員要是認為相關的言論不實的話也可以提告\n\n31\n00:10:54,272 --> 00:11:17,983\n這不是提告的問題嘛曹新成他是我們國防什麼全民任性委員會的顧問他是我們全民國防任性委員會的顧問公開的指涉我們在我們國家裡面在我們的立法院裡面有非常多位甚至他直接把所有國民黨的立法委員都指稱為共諜\n\n32\n00:11:20,044 --> 00:11:32,510\n這件事情作為一個國安局長你覺得妥當嗎對假如有涉及到這些法律的問題的話建議委員可以提告不是不是我要問你的觀點不是提告的觀點假如真的有的話我們當然會啟動偵辦那你要不要來對我們來做偵查嗎我今天已經告訴你啦我們全民任性委員會的顧問說我們國民黨的都是共諜那國安局不需要調查嗎\n\n33\n00:11:49,693 --> 00:11:54,715\n已經有人公開提供了全民任性委員會的顧問只有三個人他告訴你他告訴國安局告訴相關單位告訴所有的人說許曉鑫各位在座藍營的都是中共同路人是匪諜然後說我們是地下黨員是中共的地下黨員國安局完全不關你的事嗎那養你們那麼多人是幹嘛用的\n\n34\n00:12:18,044 --> 00:12:35,258\n你們不需要幫大家去做一個調查跟澄清嗎是就是不是就不是嘛對於各種的政治人物的政治攻防他不是政治人物他是全民有違反法律要件的話涉及到共諜的話我們一定會介入那請問我有涉及到嗎他不是政治人物喔他是全民任性社會委員會的顧問\n\n35\n00:12:43,044 --> 00:13:06,027\n她不是只是政治人物她還是文化總會的執行委員她不是她是在公職系統裡面的其中一位相當重要的人物而且全民防衛任性委員會就是跟相關的國安系統有關係的那如果她都已經指控我們是共諜的話國安局不應該有任何動作嗎\n\n36\n00:13:06,787 --> 00:13:30,520\n對公眾人物的政治攻防我們實在不想設他不是公眾人物嘛假如假設他不只是公眾人物嘛所以你要不要來調查我給你七天的時間來調查我可以嗎有相關的違反法律我給你七天的時間來調查我還我們一個清白可以嗎謝謝委員所以你的意思是說即便是全民國防任性委員會的顧問\n\n37\n00:13:33,464 --> 00:13:39,726\n無端的指控國民黨的立法委員是共諜是中共的地下黨員你都認為說跟國安局沒有關係不需要調查只要提告就好了所以那請問我有沒有相關的好我問你喔請問國安局到目前為止到目前為止\n\n38\n00:13:55,491 --> 00:13:59,012\n對我徐草心本人你們有沒有發現或是調查到任何違反國安相關法律的證據不是假設啊你有調查到就有調查到沒調查到就沒調查到啊這是是跟非事實的問題嗎這是事實的問題嗎\n\n39\n00:14:16,476 --> 00:14:18,657\n沒有沒有沒有這個不是操作這是事實的問題你如果有調查到或者是我曾經發表過你認為有超過所謂中華民國憲法界限的超過國安界限的或調查到國安界限的資料你認為有或是沒有嗎有或是沒有嗎\n\n40\n00:14:37,464 --> 00:14:56,674\n這不是政治的操作這是我本人請問你們有沒有認為認定我有介入到不安相關的法律假如真的有設法的話我們會介入假如委員認為你的法律權益受損的話請收法律條件所以你們目前有介入嗎你們現在有沒有介入你們現在有沒有介入介入的是調查我本人\n\n41\n00:15:02,301 --> 00:15:22,345\n那我剛剛已經提醒了這都是所謂公眾人物之間在我沒有在管人家我只問國安局有沒有介入調查國民黨的立法委員有沒有介入國安局有沒有介入調查國民黨的立法委員有沒有介入有沒有正在調查任何一位都可以\n\n42\n00:15:23,700 --> 00:15:35,953\n假如是正在這是假設性的問題假如是正在調查的話我怎麼可能在這個場合去回答你正在偵查的個案呢好所以有可能嘛對不對我沒辦法回答因為這是假設性的問題好有可能嘛好謝謝這是我的詮釋喔\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1011\t7121\t謝謝主席我們請國安局局長還有我們這個調查局局長也一起好了\n11874\t38493\t好 謝謝主席 薛委員早好 早安第一個議題我要談的是匪諜就在總統府我們一直在外交國防委員會裡面國安局的夜報當中我們都不斷地在講匪諜 匪諜 匪諜我們要怎麼樣來克制跟抓到這些匪諜都是我們一直在談論的話題可是我們現在發現這一次總共有四名被告而且可能還有人正在被調查當中\n39914\t59487\t包含這個游錫坤院長辦公室之前的這個助理楚聖聖楚英之外請問還有哪一些關係人因為國安涉及相關的法律正在被羈押或者是說那受到這個相關的影響因為有些個人還在偵辦當中我們實在不方便公開討論所以好問你 邱氏緣有沒有\n64704\t78927\t沒有 他已經在偵辦過程當中對啊 沒有 我就問你有沒有邱局長也有在講 那個刑事控訴法我們是不適合對外來說明這些案情的所以邱士文沒有我們沒有辦法說明案情那吳尚宇有沒有\n79622\t104833\t沒有辦法說明案件黃許榮有沒有已經在偵辦的案件不適合公開說明所以已經在北檢二月中旬發動搜索傳訊邱吳黃三個人之後認為范嫻重大有串證之餘向法院深壓獲准甚則在約談後以二十萬交保請問一下調查局這邊是否有這件事情\n107513\t121581\t包委員您剛已經說了那相關的內容我們就沒辦法評論那它是屬於國安相關的議題嗎是一個犯罪的案件一個犯罪的案件但不見得是國安的議題這個我沒辦法說明\n122321\t134185\t你看你們碰到有其他單位的共諜的時候你們講得很快匪諜就在總統府的時候大家就都不評論了每一個人都說不知道每一個人都說哎呀這個我們不能說明來我們看一下好我們看一下這個人呢大家現在都知道他是共諜了然後呢20萬就能夠交保\n143789\t155404\t我們看交保的金額柯文哲第一次三千萬第二次七千萬鄭文燦五百一千二兩千八張顯耀也是被捲入所謂的國安相關的事件是一百萬我們來看一下這個關係圖喔好\n159048\t177686\t邱士源他是民進黨的黨工也是呢台灣民主學院的副主任在2023年初的時候離開了黨中央那他呢政治欠金捐款的對象包括了民進黨蔡英文陳亭霏跟黃真玲那他有領取民進黨的薪資2019年到2020年也是領取蔡英文總統的這個競選資金\n184352\t198869\t那另外呢他也透過這個我們剛剛講的是邱士源中間這個人他也透過另外一名台商黃曲榮根據李語典的說法呢他只是做文宣的工作可是黃曲榮這個黃曲榮左下角\n201092\t213995\t他在分享李玉典演書的時候分享很多說李玉典他是現任的某個理事長一起當理事等等看起來他們是相當的熟悉所以就用黃許榮他跟台商的身分來跟吳世元、邱世元他們來做接洽\n225638\t228039\t那再來呢 就到了這個吳尚宇這個地方吳尚宇呢 他最重要的是這個吳恥榮他透過這個關係又接觸到了這個吳尚宇透過邱氏緣介紹了吳尚宇那吳尚宇呢 這個呢 是總統府的姿意\n244005\t263163\t那此時呢這個共諜就滲透到總統府來了他是從文化總會進來的跟著李厚慶一直也是李厚慶一直是民進黨相當核心的人物所以才有辦法被聘為總統府辦公室的姿意那最麻煩的事情是呢那他在112年8月12號到112年8月18號隨同賴清德副總統\n270149\t289166\t出訪巴拉圭所以他可能可以拿到的是外交部出國計畫的執行報告表可能是這樣子我要問的事情是除了這幾個人現在正在被調查當中之外還有沒有其他被調查的嫌疑人\n289887\t314289\t因為在調查當中的案件我們不可能來公開說明所以好那我告訴你其實你們還有另外一個人呢你們應該要去調查的叫做何仁傑我們目前都還沒有看到他的名字但是呢這個人據說也在被調查當中大地震你看講到這個匪諜大地震就來了這個好我繼續講\n316591\t334780\t他呢是新境界文教基金會的幕僚外交部北美司的專員不僅有綠營的背景也有公務員的身份甚至傳出他可能曾經是吳釗燮的秘書那請問這個人是不是有以上的身份\n336941\t360502\t這是委員自己的評論是不是沒有我都還沒有說我只問他是不是新境界文教基金會的幕僚外交部北美司的專員然後呢他曾經是不是吳釗燮的秘書這三件事情而已跟他是否有有沒有這個是所謂的共點沒有關聯啊我只問這三件事情而已委員在播放這些資料跟照片可能還是要注意一下各自的問題\n361420\t386637\t沒有啊 這都是網路公開的啊還是要注意一下 我提醒你 還是要注意一下因為有些資料是錯誤的這都外交部提供 外交部網站上的那你們外交部是不是要注意一下沒有 有些資料這是外交部的網站上面 IEAT提供然後呢 右邊是新境界文化小組 國防政策小組的2015年的5月報告提供完全都是你上網可以看到的\n386957\t407395\t所以如果你覺得應該要去注意一下他所謂的個資是不是要跟這兩個公開的幹部去溝通而不是我我在網路上查到的資訊不就是公開資訊嗎我在講這一位我們都沒有看到他的名字但是據說他是被抓到說在刺探帛琉的情報所以我要請國安局也要針對這個部分來進行調查\n410077\t430576\t再來第二個主題我們要講的是大罷免大間諜剛才羅美玲委員已經講了這個所謂的馬修 楚勝英他在民進黨裡面相當的有人員然後他的代號綽號叫做馬修為了取得民進黨的信任他還主動的參與罷免案\n432938\t451492\t然後去罷免廖先祥委員那作為志工其實他的身份是共諜然後呢擔任過很多民進黨代表的助理去刺探情報從2019年到2024年都在民進黨的辦公室裡面任職一共服務過八個民代其中能夠接觸到\n452172\t475067\t機密資料的是從2022年開始服務過的可能接觸到機密資料的包含游錫坤前院長然後羅智政委員跟羅美玲委員他都是屬於國防外交委員會的想要去探測國家機密的意圖相當明顯為什麼他只要20萬就能夠交保\n477267\t494221\t我們應該是對於所謂的共諜匪諜用最嚴格的方式然後來管控他為什麼剛剛連羅美玲委員她都已經輸了她也不知道要怎麼審核這些人為什麼我們20萬就讓她交保了這部分我們國安單位我們尊重審理機關法院相關的裁決\n494901\t522551\tOK 好 再來我要繼續講那我們可以看到這個楚勝英就被疑似被認為共諜的這個楚勝英他跟這個曹新成的關係可以說相當好為什麼呢因為他們要一起罷免廖先祥所以呢曹新成他特別講他特別講到什麼呢他特別講到說徐巧欣 王宏威跟羅志強我們三個人我們是中共的地下黨員\n523971\t550672\t好來我給大家看你看不清楚沒關係但是呢他主要講到的是我跟王宏威還有羅志強跟傅坤琪是中共地下黨員那我必須要講如果徐巧欣是中共的地下黨員國安局應該要立刻對我進行調查也不需要去罷免了因為我們有國安武法可以立刻就用反滲透法的相關法律抓去坐牢\n551292\t556595\t那如果不是是這些寫文章的人在造謠也應該要針對這個相關的調查進行澄清還我本人一個清白因為我是在外交國防委員會的我們會見到一些機密性的資料那如果真的是地下黨員的話對國家的影響巨大那此類傳聞是不是就不是我們需要一個答案請問我們局長的看法是什麼\n580569\t602317\t我想對於一些涉及到可能共諜案的人士就我們國安情報機關或檢調機關我們比較重視的是他有沒有哪些的犯行以及他的犯行有沒有符合我們法律的要件對於這些人他的政治的言論或政治的活動這不是我們國安單位發出的作用我要問一個立法委員他能不能夠做中共地下黨員\n605226\t615301\t這部分委員要不要自己去跟外界來做一些說明我問你的問題是一個立法委員如果他同時是中共的地下黨員的話\n617259\t640999\t假如這是假設性的問題假設性的問題沒有有可能是真的啊你怎麼知道有沒有人被滲透啊但假如真的有這樣的狀況的話我們當然會啟動我們相關查查是嘛你會啟動國安無法嘛對不對當然要抓起來啊我們在外交國防委員會裡面接觸到這麼多機密的資訊然後呢他是中共的地下黨員然後呢他涉嫌去刺探做組織去販賣情報給中共\n644562\t653100\t那這難道不用抓起來嗎難道不用關起來嗎國安單位難道不用調查嗎另一方面委員要是認為相關的言論不實的話也可以提告\n654272\t677983\t這不是提告的問題嘛曹新成他是我們國防什麼全民任性委員會的顧問他是我們全民國防任性委員會的顧問公開的指涉我們在我們國家裡面在我們的立法院裡面有非常多位甚至他直接把所有國民黨的立法委員都指稱為共諜\n680044\t692510\t這件事情作為一個國安局長你覺得妥當嗎對 假如有涉及到這些法律的問題的話建議委員可以提告不是不是 我要問你的觀點不是提告的觀點假如真的有的話我們當然會啟動偵辦那你要不要來對我們來做偵查嗎我今天已經告訴你啦我們全民任性委員會的顧問說我們國民黨的都是共諜那國安局不需要調查嗎\n709693\t714715\t已經有人公開提供了全民任性委員會的顧問只有三個人他告訴你 他告訴國安局 告訴相關單位告訴所有的人 說許曉鑫各位在座藍營的都是中共同路人 是匪諜然後說我們是地下黨員 是中共的地下黨員國安局完全不關你的事嗎那養你們那麼多人是幹嘛用的\n738044\t755258\t你們不需要幫大家去做一個調查跟澄清嗎是就是不是就不是嘛對於各種的政治人物的政治攻防他不是政治人物他是全民有違反法律要件的話涉及到共諜的話我們一定會介入那請問我有涉及到嗎他不是政治人物喔他是全民任性社會委員會的顧問\n763044\t786027\t她不是只是政治人物她還是文化總會的執行委員她不是她是在公職系統裡面的其中一位相當重要的人物而且全民防衛任性委員會就是跟相關的國安系統有關係的那如果她都已經指控我們是共諜的話國安局不應該有任何動作嗎\n786787\t810520\t對公眾人物的政治攻防我們實在不想設他不是公眾人物嘛假如假設他不只是公眾人物嘛所以你要不要來調查我給你七天的時間來調查我可以嗎有相關的違反法律我給你七天的時間來調查我還我們一個清白可以嗎謝謝委員所以你的意思是說即便是全民國防任性委員會的顧問\n813464\t819726\t無端的指控國民黨的立法委員是共諜是中共的地下黨員你都認為說跟國安局沒有關係不需要調查 只要提告就好了所以那請問我有沒有相關的好 我問你喔請問國安局到目前為止到目前為止\n835491\t839012\t對我徐草心本人你們有沒有發現或是調查到任何違反國安相關法律的證據不是假設啊你有調查到就有調查到沒調查到就沒調查到啊這是是跟非事實的問題嗎這是事實的問題嗎\n856476\t858657\t沒有沒有沒有 這個不是操作 這是事實的問題你如果有調查到 或者是我曾經發表過你認為有超過 所謂中華民國憲法界限的超過國安界限的 或調查到國安界限的資料你認為有或是沒有嗎有或是沒有嗎\n877464\t896674\t這不是政治的操作 這是我本人 請問你們有沒有認為 認定我有介入到不安相關的法律假如真的有設法的話 我們會介入假如委員認為你的法律權益受損的話 請收法律條件所以你們目前有介入嗎你們現在有沒有介入你們現在有沒有介入介入的是調查我本人\n902301\t922345\t那我剛剛已經提醒了這都是所謂公眾人物之間在我沒有在管人家我只問國安局有沒有介入調查國民黨的立法委員有沒有介入國安局有沒有介入調查國民黨的立法委員有沒有介入有沒有正在調查任何一位都可以\n923700\t935953\t假如是正在 這是假設性的問題假如是正在調查的話我怎麼可能在這個場合去回答你正在偵查的個案呢好 所以有可能嘛 對不對我沒辦法回答 因為這是假設性的問題好 有可能嘛 好 謝謝這是我的詮釋喔\n","txt":"謝謝主席我們請國安局局長還有我們這個調查局局長也一起好了\n好 謝謝主席 薛委員早好 早安第一個議題我要談的是匪諜就在總統府我們一直在外交國防委員會裡面國安局的夜報當中我們都不斷地在講匪諜 匪諜 匪諜我們要怎麼樣來克制跟抓到這些匪諜都是我們一直在談論的話題可是我們現在發現這一次總共有四名被告而且可能還有人正在被調查當中\n包含這個游錫坤院長辦公室之前的這個助理楚聖聖楚英之外請問還有哪一些關係人因為國安涉及相關的法律正在被羈押或者是說那受到這個相關的影響因為有些個人還在偵辦當中我們實在不方便公開討論所以好問你 邱氏緣有沒有\n沒有 他已經在偵辦過程當中對啊 沒有 我就問你有沒有邱局長也有在講 那個刑事控訴法我們是不適合對外來說明這些案情的所以邱士文沒有我們沒有辦法說明案情那吳尚宇有沒有\n沒有辦法說明案件黃許榮有沒有已經在偵辦的案件不適合公開說明所以已經在北檢二月中旬發動搜索傳訊邱吳黃三個人之後認為范嫻重大有串證之餘向法院深壓獲准甚則在約談後以二十萬交保請問一下調查局這邊是否有這件事情\n包委員您剛已經說了那相關的內容我們就沒辦法評論那它是屬於國安相關的議題嗎是一個犯罪的案件一個犯罪的案件但不見得是國安的議題這個我沒辦法說明\n你看你們碰到有其他單位的共諜的時候你們講得很快匪諜就在總統府的時候大家就都不評論了每一個人都說不知道每一個人都說哎呀這個我們不能說明來我們看一下好我們看一下這個人呢大家現在都知道他是共諜了然後呢20萬就能夠交保\n我們看交保的金額柯文哲第一次三千萬第二次七千萬鄭文燦五百一千二兩千八張顯耀也是被捲入所謂的國安相關的事件是一百萬我們來看一下這個關係圖喔好\n邱士源他是民進黨的黨工也是呢台灣民主學院的副主任在2023年初的時候離開了黨中央那他呢政治欠金捐款的對象包括了民進黨蔡英文陳亭霏跟黃真玲那他有領取民進黨的薪資2019年到2020年也是領取蔡英文總統的這個競選資金\n那另外呢他也透過這個我們剛剛講的是邱士源中間這個人他也透過另外一名台商黃曲榮根據李語典的說法呢他只是做文宣的工作可是黃曲榮這個黃曲榮左下角\n他在分享李玉典演書的時候分享很多說李玉典他是現任的某個理事長一起當理事等等看起來他們是相當的熟悉所以就用黃許榮他跟台商的身分來跟吳世元、邱世元他們來做接洽\n那再來呢 就到了這個吳尚宇這個地方吳尚宇呢 他最重要的是這個吳恥榮他透過這個關係又接觸到了這個吳尚宇透過邱氏緣介紹了吳尚宇那吳尚宇呢 這個呢 是總統府的姿意\n那此時呢這個共諜就滲透到總統府來了他是從文化總會進來的跟著李厚慶一直也是李厚慶一直是民進黨相當核心的人物所以才有辦法被聘為總統府辦公室的姿意那最麻煩的事情是呢那他在112年8月12號到112年8月18號隨同賴清德副總統\n出訪巴拉圭所以他可能可以拿到的是外交部出國計畫的執行報告表可能是這樣子我要問的事情是除了這幾個人現在正在被調查當中之外還有沒有其他被調查的嫌疑人\n因為在調查當中的案件我們不可能來公開說明所以好那我告訴你其實你們還有另外一個人呢你們應該要去調查的叫做何仁傑我們目前都還沒有看到他的名字但是呢這個人據說也在被調查當中大地震你看講到這個匪諜大地震就來了這個好我繼續講\n他呢是新境界文教基金會的幕僚外交部北美司的專員不僅有綠營的背景也有公務員的身份甚至傳出他可能曾經是吳釗燮的秘書那請問這個人是不是有以上的身份\n這是委員自己的評論是不是沒有我都還沒有說我只問他是不是新境界文教基金會的幕僚外交部北美司的專員然後呢他曾經是不是吳釗燮的秘書這三件事情而已跟他是否有有沒有這個是所謂的共點沒有關聯啊我只問這三件事情而已委員在播放這些資料跟照片可能還是要注意一下各自的問題\n沒有啊 這都是網路公開的啊還是要注意一下 我提醒你 還是要注意一下因為有些資料是錯誤的這都外交部提供 外交部網站上的那你們外交部是不是要注意一下沒有 有些資料這是外交部的網站上面 IEAT提供然後呢 右邊是新境界文化小組 國防政策小組的2015年的5月報告提供完全都是你上網可以看到的\n所以如果你覺得應該要去注意一下他所謂的個資是不是要跟這兩個公開的幹部去溝通而不是我我在網路上查到的資訊不就是公開資訊嗎我在講這一位我們都沒有看到他的名字但是據說他是被抓到說在刺探帛琉的情報所以我要請國安局也要針對這個部分來進行調查\n再來第二個主題我們要講的是大罷免大間諜剛才羅美玲委員已經講了這個所謂的馬修 楚勝英他在民進黨裡面相當的有人員然後他的代號綽號叫做馬修為了取得民進黨的信任他還主動的參與罷免案\n然後去罷免廖先祥委員那作為志工其實他的身份是共諜然後呢擔任過很多民進黨代表的助理去刺探情報從2019年到2024年都在民進黨的辦公室裡面任職一共服務過八個民代其中能夠接觸到\n機密資料的是從2022年開始服務過的可能接觸到機密資料的包含游錫坤前院長然後羅智政委員跟羅美玲委員他都是屬於國防外交委員會的想要去探測國家機密的意圖相當明顯為什麼他只要20萬就能夠交保\n我們應該是對於所謂的共諜匪諜用最嚴格的方式然後來管控他為什麼剛剛連羅美玲委員她都已經輸了她也不知道要怎麼審核這些人為什麼我們20萬就讓她交保了這部分我們國安單位我們尊重審理機關法院相關的裁決\nOK 好 再來我要繼續講那我們可以看到這個楚勝英就被疑似被認為共諜的這個楚勝英他跟這個曹新成的關係可以說相當好為什麼呢因為他們要一起罷免廖先祥所以呢曹新成他特別講他特別講到什麼呢他特別講到說徐巧欣 王宏威跟羅志強我們三個人我們是中共的地下黨員\n好來我給大家看你看不清楚沒關係但是呢他主要講到的是我跟王宏威還有羅志強跟傅坤琪是中共地下黨員那我必須要講如果徐巧欣是中共的地下黨員國安局應該要立刻對我進行調查也不需要去罷免了因為我們有國安武法可以立刻就用反滲透法的相關法律抓去坐牢\n那如果不是是這些寫文章的人在造謠也應該要針對這個相關的調查進行澄清還我本人一個清白因為我是在外交國防委員會的我們會見到一些機密性的資料那如果真的是地下黨員的話對國家的影響巨大那此類傳聞是不是就不是我們需要一個答案請問我們局長的看法是什麼\n我想對於一些涉及到可能共諜案的人士就我們國安情報機關或檢調機關我們比較重視的是他有沒有哪些的犯行以及他的犯行有沒有符合我們法律的要件對於這些人他的政治的言論或政治的活動這不是我們國安單位發出的作用我要問一個立法委員他能不能夠做中共地下黨員\n這部分委員要不要自己去跟外界來做一些說明我問你的問題是一個立法委員如果他同時是中共的地下黨員的話\n假如這是假設性的問題假設性的問題沒有有可能是真的啊你怎麼知道有沒有人被滲透啊但假如真的有這樣的狀況的話我們當然會啟動我們相關查查是嘛你會啟動國安無法嘛對不對當然要抓起來啊我們在外交國防委員會裡面接觸到這麼多機密的資訊然後呢他是中共的地下黨員然後呢他涉嫌去刺探做組織去販賣情報給中共\n那這難道不用抓起來嗎難道不用關起來嗎國安單位難道不用調查嗎另一方面委員要是認為相關的言論不實的話也可以提告\n這不是提告的問題嘛曹新成他是我們國防什麼全民任性委員會的顧問他是我們全民國防任性委員會的顧問公開的指涉我們在我們國家裡面在我們的立法院裡面有非常多位甚至他直接把所有國民黨的立法委員都指稱為共諜\n這件事情作為一個國安局長你覺得妥當嗎對 假如有涉及到這些法律的問題的話建議委員可以提告不是不是 我要問你的觀點不是提告的觀點假如真的有的話我們當然會啟動偵辦那你要不要來對我們來做偵查嗎我今天已經告訴你啦我們全民任性委員會的顧問說我們國民黨的都是共諜那國安局不需要調查嗎\n已經有人公開提供了全民任性委員會的顧問只有三個人他告訴你 他告訴國安局 告訴相關單位告訴所有的人 說許曉鑫各位在座藍營的都是中共同路人 是匪諜然後說我們是地下黨員 是中共的地下黨員國安局完全不關你的事嗎那養你們那麼多人是幹嘛用的\n你們不需要幫大家去做一個調查跟澄清嗎是就是不是就不是嘛對於各種的政治人物的政治攻防他不是政治人物他是全民有違反法律要件的話涉及到共諜的話我們一定會介入那請問我有涉及到嗎他不是政治人物喔他是全民任性社會委員會的顧問\n她不是只是政治人物她還是文化總會的執行委員她不是她是在公職系統裡面的其中一位相當重要的人物而且全民防衛任性委員會就是跟相關的國安系統有關係的那如果她都已經指控我們是共諜的話國安局不應該有任何動作嗎\n對公眾人物的政治攻防我們實在不想設他不是公眾人物嘛假如假設他不只是公眾人物嘛所以你要不要來調查我給你七天的時間來調查我可以嗎有相關的違反法律我給你七天的時間來調查我還我們一個清白可以嗎謝謝委員所以你的意思是說即便是全民國防任性委員會的顧問\n無端的指控國民黨的立法委員是共諜是中共的地下黨員你都認為說跟國安局沒有關係不需要調查 只要提告就好了所以那請問我有沒有相關的好 我問你喔請問國安局到目前為止到目前為止\n對我徐草心本人你們有沒有發現或是調查到任何違反國安相關法律的證據不是假設啊你有調查到就有調查到沒調查到就沒調查到啊這是是跟非事實的問題嗎這是事實的問題嗎\n沒有沒有沒有 這個不是操作 這是事實的問題你如果有調查到 或者是我曾經發表過你認為有超過 所謂中華民國憲法界限的超過國安界限的 或調查到國安界限的資料你認為有或是沒有嗎有或是沒有嗎\n這不是政治的操作 這是我本人 請問你們有沒有認為 認定我有介入到不安相關的法律假如真的有設法的話 我們會介入假如委員認為你的法律權益受損的話 請收法律條件所以你們目前有介入嗎你們現在有沒有介入你們現在有沒有介入介入的是調查我本人\n那我剛剛已經提醒了這都是所謂公眾人物之間在我沒有在管人家我只問國安局有沒有介入調查國民黨的立法委員有沒有介入國安局有沒有介入調查國民黨的立法委員有沒有介入有沒有正在調查任何一位都可以\n假如是正在 這是假設性的問題假如是正在調查的話我怎麼可能在這個場合去回答你正在偵查的個案呢好 所以有可能嘛 對不對我沒辦法回答 因為這是假設性的問題好 有可能嘛 好 謝謝這是我的詮釋喔\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.011 --> 00:07.121\n謝謝主席我們請國安局局長還有我們這個調查局局長也一起好了\n\n00:11.874 --> 00:38.493\n好謝謝主席薛委員早好早安第一個議題我要談的是匪諜就在總統府我們一直在外交國防委員會裡面國安局的夜報當中我們都不斷地在講匪諜匪諜匪諜我們要怎麼樣來克制跟抓到這些匪諜都是我們一直在談論的話題可是我們現在發現這一次總共有四名被告而且可能還有人正在被調查當中\n\n00:39.914 --> 00:59.487\n包含這個游錫坤院長辦公室之前的這個助理楚聖聖楚英之外請問還有哪一些關係人因為國安涉及相關的法律正在被羈押或者是說那受到這個相關的影響因為有些個人還在偵辦當中我們實在不方便公開討論所以好問你邱氏緣有沒有\n\n01:04.704 --> 01:18.927\n沒有他已經在偵辦過程當中對啊沒有我就問你有沒有邱局長也有在講那個刑事控訴法我們是不適合對外來說明這些案情的所以邱士文沒有我們沒有辦法說明案情那吳尚宇有沒有\n\n01:19.622 --> 01:44.833\n沒有辦法說明案件黃許榮有沒有已經在偵辦的案件不適合公開說明所以已經在北檢二月中旬發動搜索傳訊邱吳黃三個人之後認為范嫻重大有串證之餘向法院深壓獲准甚則在約談後以二十萬交保請問一下調查局這邊是否有這件事情\n\n01:47.513 --> 02:01.581\n包委員您剛已經說了那相關的內容我們就沒辦法評論那它是屬於國安相關的議題嗎是一個犯罪的案件一個犯罪的案件但不見得是國安的議題這個我沒辦法說明\n\n02:02.321 --> 02:14.185\n你看你們碰到有其他單位的共諜的時候你們講得很快匪諜就在總統府的時候大家就都不評論了每一個人都說不知道每一個人都說哎呀這個我們不能說明來我們看一下好我們看一下這個人呢大家現在都知道他是共諜了然後呢20萬就能夠交保\n\n02:23.789 --> 02:35.404\n我們看交保的金額柯文哲第一次三千萬第二次七千萬鄭文燦五百一千二兩千八張顯耀也是被捲入所謂的國安相關的事件是一百萬我們來看一下這個關係圖喔好\n\n02:39.048 --> 02:57.686\n邱士源他是民進黨的黨工也是呢台灣民主學院的副主任在2023年初的時候離開了黨中央那他呢政治欠金捐款的對象包括了民進黨蔡英文陳亭霏跟黃真玲那他有領取民進黨的薪資2019年到2020年也是領取蔡英文總統的這個競選資金\n\n03:04.352 --> 03:18.869\n那另外呢他也透過這個我們剛剛講的是邱士源中間這個人他也透過另外一名台商黃曲榮根據李語典的說法呢他只是做文宣的工作可是黃曲榮這個黃曲榮左下角\n\n03:21.092 --> 03:33.995\n他在分享李玉典演書的時候分享很多說李玉典他是現任的某個理事長一起當理事等等看起來他們是相當的熟悉所以就用黃許榮他跟台商的身分來跟吳世元、邱世元他們來做接洽\n\n03:45.638 --> 03:48.039\n那再來呢就到了這個吳尚宇這個地方吳尚宇呢他最重要的是這個吳恥榮他透過這個關係又接觸到了這個吳尚宇透過邱氏緣介紹了吳尚宇那吳尚宇呢這個呢是總統府的姿意\n\n04:04.005 --> 04:23.163\n那此時呢這個共諜就滲透到總統府來了他是從文化總會進來的跟著李厚慶一直也是李厚慶一直是民進黨相當核心的人物所以才有辦法被聘為總統府辦公室的姿意那最麻煩的事情是呢那他在112年8月12號到112年8月18號隨同賴清德副總統\n\n04:30.149 --> 04:49.166\n出訪巴拉圭所以他可能可以拿到的是外交部出國計畫的執行報告表可能是這樣子我要問的事情是除了這幾個人現在正在被調查當中之外還有沒有其他被調查的嫌疑人\n\n04:49.887 --> 05:14.289\n因為在調查當中的案件我們不可能來公開說明所以好那我告訴你其實你們還有另外一個人呢你們應該要去調查的叫做何仁傑我們目前都還沒有看到他的名字但是呢這個人據說也在被調查當中大地震你看講到這個匪諜大地震就來了這個好我繼續講\n\n05:16.591 --> 05:34.780\n他呢是新境界文教基金會的幕僚外交部北美司的專員不僅有綠營的背景也有公務員的身份甚至傳出他可能曾經是吳釗燮的秘書那請問這個人是不是有以上的身份\n\n05:36.941 --> 06:00.502\n這是委員自己的評論是不是沒有我都還沒有說我只問他是不是新境界文教基金會的幕僚外交部北美司的專員然後呢他曾經是不是吳釗燮的秘書這三件事情而已跟他是否有有沒有這個是所謂的共點沒有關聯啊我只問這三件事情而已委員在播放這些資料跟照片可能還是要注意一下各自的問題\n\n06:01.420 --> 06:26.637\n沒有啊這都是網路公開的啊還是要注意一下我提醒你還是要注意一下因為有些資料是錯誤的這都外交部提供外交部網站上的那你們外交部是不是要注意一下沒有有些資料這是外交部的網站上面IEAT提供然後呢右邊是新境界文化小組國防政策小組的2015年的5月報告提供完全都是你上網可以看到的\n\n06:26.957 --> 06:47.395\n所以如果你覺得應該要去注意一下他所謂的個資是不是要跟這兩個公開的幹部去溝通而不是我我在網路上查到的資訊不就是公開資訊嗎我在講這一位我們都沒有看到他的名字但是據說他是被抓到說在刺探帛琉的情報所以我要請國安局也要針對這個部分來進行調查\n\n06:50.077 --> 07:10.576\n再來第二個主題我們要講的是大罷免大間諜剛才羅美玲委員已經講了這個所謂的馬修楚勝英他在民進黨裡面相當的有人員然後他的代號綽號叫做馬修為了取得民進黨的信任他還主動的參與罷免案\n\n07:12.938 --> 07:31.492\n然後去罷免廖先祥委員那作為志工其實他的身份是共諜然後呢擔任過很多民進黨代表的助理去刺探情報從2019年到2024年都在民進黨的辦公室裡面任職一共服務過八個民代其中能夠接觸到\n\n07:32.172 --> 07:55.067\n機密資料的是從2022年開始服務過的可能接觸到機密資料的包含游錫坤前院長然後羅智政委員跟羅美玲委員他都是屬於國防外交委員會的想要去探測國家機密的意圖相當明顯為什麼他只要20萬就能夠交保\n\n07:57.267 --> 08:14.221\n我們應該是對於所謂的共諜匪諜用最嚴格的方式然後來管控他為什麼剛剛連羅美玲委員她都已經輸了她也不知道要怎麼審核這些人為什麼我們20萬就讓她交保了這部分我們國安單位我們尊重審理機關法院相關的裁決\n\n08:14.901 --> 08:42.551\nOK好再來我要繼續講那我們可以看到這個楚勝英就被疑似被認為共諜的這個楚勝英他跟這個曹新成的關係可以說相當好為什麼呢因為他們要一起罷免廖先祥所以呢曹新成他特別講他特別講到什麼呢他特別講到說徐巧欣王宏威跟羅志強我們三個人我們是中共的地下黨員\n\n08:43.971 --> 09:10.672\n好來我給大家看你看不清楚沒關係但是呢他主要講到的是我跟王宏威還有羅志強跟傅坤琪是中共地下黨員那我必須要講如果徐巧欣是中共的地下黨員國安局應該要立刻對我進行調查也不需要去罷免了因為我們有國安武法可以立刻就用反滲透法的相關法律抓去坐牢\n\n09:11.292 --> 09:16.595\n那如果不是是這些寫文章的人在造謠也應該要針對這個相關的調查進行澄清還我本人一個清白因為我是在外交國防委員會的我們會見到一些機密性的資料那如果真的是地下黨員的話對國家的影響巨大那此類傳聞是不是就不是我們需要一個答案請問我們局長的看法是什麼\n\n09:40.569 --> 10:02.317\n我想對於一些涉及到可能共諜案的人士就我們國安情報機關或檢調機關我們比較重視的是他有沒有哪些的犯行以及他的犯行有沒有符合我們法律的要件對於這些人他的政治的言論或政治的活動這不是我們國安單位發出的作用我要問一個立法委員他能不能夠做中共地下黨員\n\n10:05.226 --> 10:15.301\n這部分委員要不要自己去跟外界來做一些說明我問你的問題是一個立法委員如果他同時是中共的地下黨員的話\n\n10:17.259 --> 10:40.999\n假如這是假設性的問題假設性的問題沒有有可能是真的啊你怎麼知道有沒有人被滲透啊但假如真的有這樣的狀況的話我們當然會啟動我們相關查查是嘛你會啟動國安無法嘛對不對當然要抓起來啊我們在外交國防委員會裡面接觸到這麼多機密的資訊然後呢他是中共的地下黨員然後呢他涉嫌去刺探做組織去販賣情報給中共\n\n10:44.562 --> 10:53.100\n那這難道不用抓起來嗎難道不用關起來嗎國安單位難道不用調查嗎另一方面委員要是認為相關的言論不實的話也可以提告\n\n10:54.272 --> 11:17.983\n這不是提告的問題嘛曹新成他是我們國防什麼全民任性委員會的顧問他是我們全民國防任性委員會的顧問公開的指涉我們在我們國家裡面在我們的立法院裡面有非常多位甚至他直接把所有國民黨的立法委員都指稱為共諜\n\n11:20.044 --> 11:32.510\n這件事情作為一個國安局長你覺得妥當嗎對假如有涉及到這些法律的問題的話建議委員可以提告不是不是我要問你的觀點不是提告的觀點假如真的有的話我們當然會啟動偵辦那你要不要來對我們來做偵查嗎我今天已經告訴你啦我們全民任性委員會的顧問說我們國民黨的都是共諜那國安局不需要調查嗎\n\n11:49.693 --> 11:54.715\n已經有人公開提供了全民任性委員會的顧問只有三個人他告訴你他告訴國安局告訴相關單位告訴所有的人說許曉鑫各位在座藍營的都是中共同路人是匪諜然後說我們是地下黨員是中共的地下黨員國安局完全不關你的事嗎那養你們那麼多人是幹嘛用的\n\n12:18.044 --> 12:35.258\n你們不需要幫大家去做一個調查跟澄清嗎是就是不是就不是嘛對於各種的政治人物的政治攻防他不是政治人物他是全民有違反法律要件的話涉及到共諜的話我們一定會介入那請問我有涉及到嗎他不是政治人物喔他是全民任性社會委員會的顧問\n\n12:43.044 --> 13:06.027\n她不是只是政治人物她還是文化總會的執行委員她不是她是在公職系統裡面的其中一位相當重要的人物而且全民防衛任性委員會就是跟相關的國安系統有關係的那如果她都已經指控我們是共諜的話國安局不應該有任何動作嗎\n\n13:06.787 --> 13:30.520\n對公眾人物的政治攻防我們實在不想設他不是公眾人物嘛假如假設他不只是公眾人物嘛所以你要不要來調查我給你七天的時間來調查我可以嗎有相關的違反法律我給你七天的時間來調查我還我們一個清白可以嗎謝謝委員所以你的意思是說即便是全民國防任性委員會的顧問\n\n13:33.464 --> 13:39.726\n無端的指控國民黨的立法委員是共諜是中共的地下黨員你都認為說跟國安局沒有關係不需要調查只要提告就好了所以那請問我有沒有相關的好我問你喔請問國安局到目前為止到目前為止\n\n13:55.491 --> 13:59.012\n對我徐草心本人你們有沒有發現或是調查到任何違反國安相關法律的證據不是假設啊你有調查到就有調查到沒調查到就沒調查到啊這是是跟非事實的問題嗎這是事實的問題嗎\n\n14:16.476 --> 14:18.657\n沒有沒有沒有這個不是操作這是事實的問題你如果有調查到或者是我曾經發表過你認為有超過所謂中華民國憲法界限的超過國安界限的或調查到國安界限的資料你認為有或是沒有嗎有或是沒有嗎\n\n14:37.464 --> 14:56.674\n這不是政治的操作這是我本人請問你們有沒有認為認定我有介入到不安相關的法律假如真的有設法的話我們會介入假如委員認為你的法律權益受損的話請收法律條件所以你們目前有介入嗎你們現在有沒有介入你們現在有沒有介入介入的是調查我本人\n\n15:02.301 --> 15:22.345\n那我剛剛已經提醒了這都是所謂公眾人物之間在我沒有在管人家我只問國安局有沒有介入調查國民黨的立法委員有沒有介入國安局有沒有介入調查國民黨的立法委員有沒有介入有沒有正在調查任何一位都可以\n\n15:23.700 --> 15:35.953\n假如是正在這是假設性的問題假如是正在調查的話我怎麼可能在這個場合去回答你正在偵查的個案呢好所以有可能嘛對不對我沒辦法回答因為這是假設性的問題好有可能嘛好謝謝這是我的詮釋喔\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.011,"end":7.121,"text":"謝謝主席我們請國安局局長還有我們這個調查局局長也一起好了"},{"start":11.874,"end":38.493,"text":"好 謝謝主席 薛委員早好 早安第一個議題我要談的是匪諜就在總統府我們一直在外交國防委員會裡面國安局的夜報當中我們都不斷地在講匪諜 匪諜 匪諜我們要怎麼樣來克制跟抓到這些匪諜都是我們一直在談論的話題可是我們現在發現這一次總共有四名被告而且可能還有人正在被調查當中"},{"start":39.914,"end":59.487,"text":"包含這個游錫坤院長辦公室之前的這個助理楚聖聖楚英之外請問還有哪一些關係人因為國安涉及相關的法律正在被羈押或者是說那受到這個相關的影響因為有些個人還在偵辦當中我們實在不方便公開討論所以好問你 邱氏緣有沒有"},{"start":64.704,"end":78.927,"text":"沒有 他已經在偵辦過程當中對啊 沒有 我就問你有沒有邱局長也有在講 那個刑事控訴法我們是不適合對外來說明這些案情的所以邱士文沒有我們沒有辦法說明案情那吳尚宇有沒有"},{"start":79.622,"end":104.833,"text":"沒有辦法說明案件黃許榮有沒有已經在偵辦的案件不適合公開說明所以已經在北檢二月中旬發動搜索傳訊邱吳黃三個人之後認為范嫻重大有串證之餘向法院深壓獲准甚則在約談後以二十萬交保請問一下調查局這邊是否有這件事情"},{"start":107.513,"end":121.581,"text":"包委員您剛已經說了那相關的內容我們就沒辦法評論那它是屬於國安相關的議題嗎是一個犯罪的案件一個犯罪的案件但不見得是國安的議題這個我沒辦法說明"},{"start":122.321,"end":134.185,"text":"你看你們碰到有其他單位的共諜的時候你們講得很快匪諜就在總統府的時候大家就都不評論了每一個人都說不知道每一個人都說哎呀這個我們不能說明來我們看一下好我們看一下這個人呢大家現在都知道他是共諜了然後呢20萬就能夠交保"},{"start":143.789,"end":155.404,"text":"我們看交保的金額柯文哲第一次三千萬第二次七千萬鄭文燦五百一千二兩千八張顯耀也是被捲入所謂的國安相關的事件是一百萬我們來看一下這個關係圖喔好"},{"start":159.048,"end":177.686,"text":"邱士源他是民進黨的黨工也是呢台灣民主學院的副主任在2023年初的時候離開了黨中央那他呢政治欠金捐款的對象包括了民進黨蔡英文陳亭霏跟黃真玲那他有領取民進黨的薪資2019年到2020年也是領取蔡英文總統的這個競選資金"},{"start":184.352,"end":198.869,"text":"那另外呢他也透過這個我們剛剛講的是邱士源中間這個人他也透過另外一名台商黃曲榮根據李語典的說法呢他只是做文宣的工作可是黃曲榮這個黃曲榮左下角"},{"start":201.092,"end":213.995,"text":"他在分享李玉典演書的時候分享很多說李玉典他是現任的某個理事長一起當理事等等看起來他們是相當的熟悉所以就用黃許榮他跟台商的身分來跟吳世元、邱世元他們來做接洽"},{"start":225.638,"end":228.039,"text":"那再來呢 就到了這個吳尚宇這個地方吳尚宇呢 他最重要的是這個吳恥榮他透過這個關係又接觸到了這個吳尚宇透過邱氏緣介紹了吳尚宇那吳尚宇呢 這個呢 是總統府的姿意"},{"start":244.005,"end":263.163,"text":"那此時呢這個共諜就滲透到總統府來了他是從文化總會進來的跟著李厚慶一直也是李厚慶一直是民進黨相當核心的人物所以才有辦法被聘為總統府辦公室的姿意那最麻煩的事情是呢那他在112年8月12號到112年8月18號隨同賴清德副總統"},{"start":270.149,"end":289.166,"text":"出訪巴拉圭所以他可能可以拿到的是外交部出國計畫的執行報告表可能是這樣子我要問的事情是除了這幾個人現在正在被調查當中之外還有沒有其他被調查的嫌疑人"},{"start":289.887,"end":314.289,"text":"因為在調查當中的案件我們不可能來公開說明所以好那我告訴你其實你們還有另外一個人呢你們應該要去調查的叫做何仁傑我們目前都還沒有看到他的名字但是呢這個人據說也在被調查當中大地震你看講到這個匪諜大地震就來了這個好我繼續講"},{"start":316.591,"end":334.78,"text":"他呢是新境界文教基金會的幕僚外交部北美司的專員不僅有綠營的背景也有公務員的身份甚至傳出他可能曾經是吳釗燮的秘書那請問這個人是不是有以上的身份"},{"start":336.941,"end":360.502,"text":"這是委員自己的評論是不是沒有我都還沒有說我只問他是不是新境界文教基金會的幕僚外交部北美司的專員然後呢他曾經是不是吳釗燮的秘書這三件事情而已跟他是否有有沒有這個是所謂的共點沒有關聯啊我只問這三件事情而已委員在播放這些資料跟照片可能還是要注意一下各自的問題"},{"start":361.42,"end":386.637,"text":"沒有啊 這都是網路公開的啊還是要注意一下 我提醒你 還是要注意一下因為有些資料是錯誤的這都外交部提供 外交部網站上的那你們外交部是不是要注意一下沒有 有些資料這是外交部的網站上面 IEAT提供然後呢 右邊是新境界文化小組 國防政策小組的2015年的5月報告提供完全都是你上網可以看到的"},{"start":386.957,"end":407.395,"text":"所以如果你覺得應該要去注意一下他所謂的個資是不是要跟這兩個公開的幹部去溝通而不是我我在網路上查到的資訊不就是公開資訊嗎我在講這一位我們都沒有看到他的名字但是據說他是被抓到說在刺探帛琉的情報所以我要請國安局也要針對這個部分來進行調查"},{"start":410.077,"end":430.576,"text":"再來第二個主題我們要講的是大罷免大間諜剛才羅美玲委員已經講了這個所謂的馬修 楚勝英他在民進黨裡面相當的有人員然後他的代號綽號叫做馬修為了取得民進黨的信任他還主動的參與罷免案"},{"start":432.938,"end":451.492,"text":"然後去罷免廖先祥委員那作為志工其實他的身份是共諜然後呢擔任過很多民進黨代表的助理去刺探情報從2019年到2024年都在民進黨的辦公室裡面任職一共服務過八個民代其中能夠接觸到"},{"start":452.172,"end":475.067,"text":"機密資料的是從2022年開始服務過的可能接觸到機密資料的包含游錫坤前院長然後羅智政委員跟羅美玲委員他都是屬於國防外交委員會的想要去探測國家機密的意圖相當明顯為什麼他只要20萬就能夠交保"},{"start":477.267,"end":494.221,"text":"我們應該是對於所謂的共諜匪諜用最嚴格的方式然後來管控他為什麼剛剛連羅美玲委員她都已經輸了她也不知道要怎麼審核這些人為什麼我們20萬就讓她交保了這部分我們國安單位我們尊重審理機關法院相關的裁決"},{"start":494.901,"end":522.551,"text":"OK 好 再來我要繼續講那我們可以看到這個楚勝英就被疑似被認為共諜的這個楚勝英他跟這個曹新成的關係可以說相當好為什麼呢因為他們要一起罷免廖先祥所以呢曹新成他特別講他特別講到什麼呢他特別講到說徐巧欣 王宏威跟羅志強我們三個人我們是中共的地下黨員"},{"start":523.971,"end":550.672,"text":"好來我給大家看你看不清楚沒關係但是呢他主要講到的是我跟王宏威還有羅志強跟傅坤琪是中共地下黨員那我必須要講如果徐巧欣是中共的地下黨員國安局應該要立刻對我進行調查也不需要去罷免了因為我們有國安武法可以立刻就用反滲透法的相關法律抓去坐牢"},{"start":551.292,"end":556.595,"text":"那如果不是是這些寫文章的人在造謠也應該要針對這個相關的調查進行澄清還我本人一個清白因為我是在外交國防委員會的我們會見到一些機密性的資料那如果真的是地下黨員的話對國家的影響巨大那此類傳聞是不是就不是我們需要一個答案請問我們局長的看法是什麼"},{"start":580.569,"end":602.317,"text":"我想對於一些涉及到可能共諜案的人士就我們國安情報機關或檢調機關我們比較重視的是他有沒有哪些的犯行以及他的犯行有沒有符合我們法律的要件對於這些人他的政治的言論或政治的活動這不是我們國安單位發出的作用我要問一個立法委員他能不能夠做中共地下黨員"},{"start":605.226,"end":615.301,"text":"這部分委員要不要自己去跟外界來做一些說明我問你的問題是一個立法委員如果他同時是中共的地下黨員的話"},{"start":617.259,"end":640.999,"text":"假如這是假設性的問題假設性的問題沒有有可能是真的啊你怎麼知道有沒有人被滲透啊但假如真的有這樣的狀況的話我們當然會啟動我們相關查查是嘛你會啟動國安無法嘛對不對當然要抓起來啊我們在外交國防委員會裡面接觸到這麼多機密的資訊然後呢他是中共的地下黨員然後呢他涉嫌去刺探做組織去販賣情報給中共"},{"start":644.562,"end":653.1,"text":"那這難道不用抓起來嗎難道不用關起來嗎國安單位難道不用調查嗎另一方面委員要是認為相關的言論不實的話也可以提告"},{"start":654.272,"end":677.983,"text":"這不是提告的問題嘛曹新成他是我們國防什麼全民任性委員會的顧問他是我們全民國防任性委員會的顧問公開的指涉我們在我們國家裡面在我們的立法院裡面有非常多位甚至他直接把所有國民黨的立法委員都指稱為共諜"},{"start":680.044,"end":692.51,"text":"這件事情作為一個國安局長你覺得妥當嗎對 假如有涉及到這些法律的問題的話建議委員可以提告不是不是 我要問你的觀點不是提告的觀點假如真的有的話我們當然會啟動偵辦那你要不要來對我們來做偵查嗎我今天已經告訴你啦我們全民任性委員會的顧問說我們國民黨的都是共諜那國安局不需要調查嗎"},{"start":709.693,"end":714.715,"text":"已經有人公開提供了全民任性委員會的顧問只有三個人他告訴你 他告訴國安局 告訴相關單位告訴所有的人 說許曉鑫各位在座藍營的都是中共同路人 是匪諜然後說我們是地下黨員 是中共的地下黨員國安局完全不關你的事嗎那養你們那麼多人是幹嘛用的"},{"start":738.044,"end":755.258,"text":"你們不需要幫大家去做一個調查跟澄清嗎是就是不是就不是嘛對於各種的政治人物的政治攻防他不是政治人物他是全民有違反法律要件的話涉及到共諜的話我們一定會介入那請問我有涉及到嗎他不是政治人物喔他是全民任性社會委員會的顧問"},{"start":763.044,"end":786.027,"text":"她不是只是政治人物她還是文化總會的執行委員她不是她是在公職系統裡面的其中一位相當重要的人物而且全民防衛任性委員會就是跟相關的國安系統有關係的那如果她都已經指控我們是共諜的話國安局不應該有任何動作嗎"},{"start":786.787,"end":810.52,"text":"對公眾人物的政治攻防我們實在不想設他不是公眾人物嘛假如假設他不只是公眾人物嘛所以你要不要來調查我給你七天的時間來調查我可以嗎有相關的違反法律我給你七天的時間來調查我還我們一個清白可以嗎謝謝委員所以你的意思是說即便是全民國防任性委員會的顧問"},{"start":813.464,"end":819.726,"text":"無端的指控國民黨的立法委員是共諜是中共的地下黨員你都認為說跟國安局沒有關係不需要調查 只要提告就好了所以那請問我有沒有相關的好 我問你喔請問國安局到目前為止到目前為止"},{"start":835.491,"end":839.012,"text":"對我徐草心本人你們有沒有發現或是調查到任何違反國安相關法律的證據不是假設啊你有調查到就有調查到沒調查到就沒調查到啊這是是跟非事實的問題嗎這是事實的問題嗎"},{"start":856.476,"end":858.657,"text":"沒有沒有沒有 這個不是操作 這是事實的問題你如果有調查到 或者是我曾經發表過你認為有超過 所謂中華民國憲法界限的超過國安界限的 或調查到國安界限的資料你認為有或是沒有嗎有或是沒有嗎"},{"start":877.464,"end":896.674,"text":"這不是政治的操作 這是我本人 請問你們有沒有認為 認定我有介入到不安相關的法律假如真的有設法的話 我們會介入假如委員認為你的法律權益受損的話 請收法律條件所以你們目前有介入嗎你們現在有沒有介入你們現在有沒有介入介入的是調查我本人"},{"start":902.301,"end":922.345,"text":"那我剛剛已經提醒了這都是所謂公眾人物之間在我沒有在管人家我只問國安局有沒有介入調查國民黨的立法委員有沒有介入國安局有沒有介入調查國民黨的立法委員有沒有介入有沒有正在調查任何一位都可以"},{"start":923.7,"end":935.953,"text":"假如是正在 這是假設性的問題假如是正在調查的話我怎麼可能在這個場合去回答你正在偵查的個案呢好 所以有可能嘛 對不對我沒辦法回答 因為這是假設性的問題好 有可能嘛 好 謝謝這是我的詮釋喔"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":270,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（9時48分）謝謝主席，我們請國安局局長，還有調查局局長也一起好了。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，徐委員早。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，早安。第一個議題，我要談的是匪諜就在總統府，在外交及國防委員會裡面，國安局的業報當中，我們都不斷地在講匪諜、匪諜、匪諜，我們要怎麼樣剋制跟抓到這些匪諜，都是我們一直在談論的話題。可是我們現在發現，這一次總共有4名被告，而且可能還有人正在被調查當中，包含游錫堃院長辦公室之前的助理盛礎纓之外，請問還有哪一些關係人因為國安涉及相關的法律正在被羈押，或者是受到相關的影響？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為有些個案還在偵辦當中，我們實在不方便公開討論。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，他就是已經報紙……好，我問你，邱世元有沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，他已經在偵辦過程當中……"],["徐委員巧芯：我就問有沒有嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：剛剛調查局長也在講，就刑事訴訟法，我們是不適合對外說明這些案情的。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以邱世元沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們沒有辦法說明案情。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那吳尚雨有沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有辦法說明案情，已經在偵辦了。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，黃取榮有沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：已經在偵辦的案件，不適合公開說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：北檢在2月中旬發動搜索，傳訊邱、吳、黃三個人之後，認為犯嫌重大，有串證之虞，向法院聲押獲准，盛則在約談後以20萬交保，請問一下調查局，是否有這件事情？"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，您剛剛已經說了，相關的內容我們沒辦法評論。"],["徐委員巧芯：它是屬於國安相關的議題嗎？"],["陳局長白立：是一個犯罪的案件。"],["徐委員巧芯：一個犯罪的案件，但不見得是國安的議題？"],["陳局長白立：這個我沒辦法說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：你看你們碰到有其他單位的共諜時，你們就講得很快，但匪諜在總統府的時候，大家就都不評論了，每一個人都說不知道，每一個人都說我們不能說明……"],["蔡局長明彥：偵辦中的案件我們一律不評論。"],["徐委員巧芯：來，我們看一下，現在大家都知道這個人是共諜了，然後20萬就能夠交保。我們來看交保的金額，柯文哲第一次3,000萬，第二次7,000萬；鄭文燦則是500萬、1,200萬、2,800萬；張顯耀也是被捲入所謂的國安相關事件，他是1,100萬。","我們來看一下關係圖，邱世元是民進黨的黨工，也是臺灣民主學院的副主任，在2023年初的時候離開了黨中央，其政治獻金捐款的對象包括民進黨蔡英文、陳亭妃、黃偵琳，他有領取民進黨的薪資，2019年到2020年也領取蔡英文總統的競選資金。除了我們剛剛講的邱世元，他也透過另外一名臺商黃取榮，根據李余典的說法，他只是做文宣的工作，可是黃取榮在分享李余典臉書的時候，多次分享說李余典是現任的某個理事長、一起擔任理事等等，看起來他們是相當的熟悉，所以就用黃取榮臺商的身分來跟邱世元接洽。再來就到了吳尚雨，最重要的是黃取榮透過關係又接觸到了吳尚雨，也就是透過邱世元介紹了吳尚雨，吳尚雨是總統府的諮議，此時共諜就滲透到總統府來了，他是從文化總會進來的，是跟著李厚慶，而李厚慶一直是民進黨相當核心的人物，所以他才有辦法被聘為總統府辦公室的諮議，最麻煩的事情是他在112年8月12號到112年8月18號隨同賴清德副總統出訪巴拉圭，所以他可能可以拿到外交部出國計畫的執行報告表，可能是這樣子。我要問的事情是，除了這幾個人現在正在被調查當中之外，還有沒有其他被調查的嫌疑人？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為在調查當中的案件，我們不可能公開說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那我告訴你，其實另外還有，另外一個你們應該要去調查的叫做何仁傑，我們目前都還沒有看到他的名字，但是這個人據說也在被調查當中。","現在有大地震！你看講到匪諜大地震就來了。我繼續講，他是新境界文教基金會的幕僚，外交部北美司的專員，不僅有綠營的背景，也有公務員的身分，甚至傳出他可能曾經是吳釗燮的秘書，請問這個人是不是有以上的身分？"],["蔡局長明彥：這是委員自己的評估，是不是？"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，我都還沒有說，我只問他是不是新境界文教基金會的幕僚、外交部北美司的專員，然後他是不是曾經是吳釗燮的秘書，就這三件事情而已，跟他是不是所謂的共諜沒有關聯，我只問這三件事情而已。"],["蔡局長明彥：委員，播放這些資料跟照片可能還是要注意一下個資的問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有啊！這都是網路公開的啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：還是要注意一下，我提醒你還是要注意一下。"],["徐委員巧芯：這都是……"],["蔡局長明彥：因為有些資料是錯誤的。"],["徐委員巧芯：這都是外交部提供的，是外交部網站上的，那外交部是不是要注意一下？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，有些資料……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，這是外交部的網站上面IEAT提供，然後右邊是新境界文教基金會國防政策小組2015年5月的報告提供，完全都是上網就可以看到的……"],["蔡局長明彥：委員……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以如果你覺得應該要注意一下所謂的個資，是不是要跟這兩個公開的單位去溝通，而不是我？我在網路上查到的資訊不就是公開資訊嗎？好，我接著講，這一位我們都沒有看到他的名字，但據說他是被抓到在刺探帛琉的情報，所以我要請國安局也要針對這個部分進行調查。","再來第二個主題我們要講的是大罷免、大間諜，剛才羅美玲委員已經講了，所謂的馬修，也就是盛礎纓，他在民進黨裡面相當有人緣，他的綽號叫做馬修。為了取得民進黨的信任，他還主動參與罷免案，然後去罷免廖先翔委員，作為志工，其實他的身分是共諜，擔任過很多民進黨代表的助理去刺探情報，從2019年到2024年都在民進黨的辦公室裡面任職，一共服務過8個民代，其中能夠接觸到機密資料的是從2022年開始，他服務過的民代當中，可能接觸到機密資料的包含游錫堃前院長、羅致政委員及羅美玲委員，他們都是屬於外交及國防委員會的，想要去探測國家機密的意圖相當明顯，為什麼他只要20萬就能夠交保？我們對於所謂的共諜、匪諜應該要用最嚴格的方式來管控，剛剛連羅美玲委員都已經說了，還不知道要怎麼審核這些人，為什麼20萬就讓他交保了？"],["蔡局長明彥：針對這個部分，國安單位尊重審理機關、法院相關的裁決。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們可以看到疑似被認為共諜的盛礎纓跟曹興誠的關係可以說相當好，為什麼呢？因為他們要一起罷免廖先翔，所以曹興誠特別講到什麼呢？他特別講到徐巧芯、王鴻薇跟羅智強三個人是中共的地下黨員，他主要講到的是我、王鴻薇、羅智強跟傅崐萁是中共地下黨員。我必須講如果徐巧芯是中共的地下黨員，國安局應該要立刻對我進行調查，也不需要去罷免了，因為我們有國安五法，可以立刻就用反滲透法的相關法律抓去坐牢。如果不是這樣，而是這些寫文章的人在造謠，也應該要針對相關的調查進行澄清，還我本人一個清白，因為我是外交及國防委員會的委員，我們會見到一些機密性的資料，如果真的是地下黨員的話，對國家的影響巨大，此類傳聞是就是、不是就不是，我們需要一個答案。請問局長的看法是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想對於一些可能涉及到共諜案的人士，就國安情報機關或檢調機關而言，我們比較重視的是他有沒有哪些犯行，以及他的犯行有沒有符合我們法律的要件，至於這些人的政治言論或政治活動，這不是我們國安單位關注的重點。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是啊！我要問一個立法委員能不能夠做中共地下黨員？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分委員要不要自己去跟外界做一些說明？"],["徐委員巧芯：我問你的問題是，如果一個立法委員同時是中共地下黨員的話，有沒有問題？"],["蔡局長明彥：這是假設性的問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：有可能是真的啊，你怎麼知道有沒有人被滲透？"],["蔡局長明彥：假如真的有這樣的狀況的話，我們當然會啟動相關查察的……"],["徐委員巧芯：是嘛，你會啟動國安五法對不對？當然要抓起來啊！我們在外交及國防委員會裡面接觸到這麼多機密的資訊，他是中共的地下黨員，然後他涉嫌去刺探、做組織、去販賣情報給中共，這難道不用抓起來嗎？難道不用關起來嗎？國安單位難道不用調查嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：另一方面，委員要是認為相關言論不實的話，也可以提告。"],["徐委員巧芯：這不是提告的問題嘛！曹興誠是全社會防衛韌性委員會的顧問，他公開指涉在我們的國家裡面、在我們的立法院裡面有非常多位，甚至他直接把所有國民黨的立法委員都指稱為共諜，針對這件事情，作為一個國安局局長，你覺得妥當嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：假如有涉及到法律的問題的話，建議委員可以提告，就我們國安局來講，假如真的有……"],["徐委員巧芯：不是、不是，我要問你的觀點，不是提到的觀點！"],["蔡局長明彥：假設性的問題，假如真的有的話，我們當然會啟動偵辦。"],["徐委員巧芯：你要不要對我們做偵查？我今天已經告訴你了，全社會防衛韌性委員會的顧問說我們國民黨都是共諜，那國安局不需要調查嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：要有相關的法律要件。"],["徐委員巧芯：已經有人公開提供了，全社會防衛韌性委員會的顧問就3個人，他告訴你、告訴國安局、告訴相關單位、告訴所有的人，說徐巧芯、各位在座藍營的都是中共用路人、是匪諜，說我們是中共的地下黨員，國安局，完全不關你的事嗎？那養你們那麼多人是幹嘛用的？你們不需要幫大家做一個調查跟澄清嗎？是就是、不是就不是嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對於各種政治人物的政治攻防或言論，只要有違反法律要件的話……"],["徐委員巧芯：他不是政治人物，他是全民……"],["蔡局長明彥：有違反法律要件的話，涉及到共諜的話，我們一定會介入。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問我有涉及到嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：但假如是政治人物之間的政治攻防或言論，這個我們不涉入。"],["徐委員巧芯：他不是政治人物喔！他是全社會防衛韌性委員會的顧問，他不是只是政治人物，他還是文化總會的執行委員，他是在公職系統裡面的其中一位相當重要的人物，而且全社會防衛韌性委員會就是跟相關的國安系統有關係的……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，如果……"],["徐委員巧芯：如果他都已經指控我們是共諜的話，國安局不應該有任何動作嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，公眾人物的政治攻防，我們實在不想涉入，但是假如真正……"],["徐委員巧芯：他不是公眾人物嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：假如、假設真的有違法的話，我們會介入來調查。"],["徐委員巧芯：他不只是公眾人物嘛！所以你要不要來調查？我給你7天的時間來調查我，可以嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有相關違反法律要件的話，我們會介入。"],["徐委員巧芯：我給你7天的時間來調查我，還我們一個清白，可以嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：但對於政治人物的操作，我們不會介入，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你的意思是說，即便是全社會防衛韌性委員會的顧問，無端地指控國民黨的立法委員是共諜、是中共的地下黨員……"],["蔡局長明彥：委員認為有損你的權益的話，就去走法律的途徑。"],["徐委員巧芯：你都認為跟國安局沒有關係，不需要調查，只要提告就好了？"],["蔡局長明彥：有相關的違法事實，我們會介入。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以請問我有沒有相關的……"],["蔡局長明彥：但只要委員認為相關的言論有涉及到你的權益，請走法律途徑，不要做政治的操作。"],["徐委員巧芯：好！我問你，請問國安局到目前為止對我徐巧芯本人，你們有沒有發現或是調查到任何違反國安相關法律的證據？"],["蔡局長明彥：這是假設性的問題，我們並沒有辦法回答。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是假設啊！你有調查到就有調查到，沒調查到就沒調查到啊！這是是跟非、事實的問題嘛！這是事實的問題嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：希望委員儘量不要用這種所謂的質詢時間去做政治的攻防或操作。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有、沒有、沒有，這個不是操作，這是事實的問題。你如果有調查到，或者我曾經發表過你們認為有超過所謂中華民國憲法界線的、超過國安界線的或調查到國安界線的資料，你認為有或是沒有嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：再次提醒委員，政策質詢儘量不要做政治的操作，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員巧芯：不、不，有或是沒有嘛，這不是政治的操作，這是我本人請問你們有沒有認為、認定我有介入到國安相關的法律……"],["蔡局長明彥：我剛剛已經有提過了，假如真的有涉法的話，我們會介入。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你現在沒有……"],["蔡局長明彥：假如委員認為你的法律權益受損的話，請走法律途徑。"],["徐委員巧芯：好！所以你們目前有介入嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：政策的辯論建議不要使用政治的語言或操作。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們現在有沒有介入？你們現在有沒有介入？"],["蔡局長明彥：介入的是……"],["徐委員巧芯：調查我本人。"],["蔡局長明彥：我剛剛已經提醒了，這個都是所謂公眾人物之間在相關的法律……假如這有涉法的話，我們才會介入。"],["徐委員巧芯：我沒有在管人家，我只問國安局有沒有介入調查國民黨的立法委員，有沒有介入？國安局有沒有介入調查國民黨的立法委員？有沒有介入？有沒有正在調查？任何一位都可以。"],["蔡局長明彥：這是假設性的問題，假如是正在調查的話，我怎麼可能在這個場合去回答你正在偵查的個案呢？"],["徐委員巧芯：所以有可能嘛，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：我沒辦法回答，因為這是假設性的問題。謝謝。"],["主席：時間到了。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，有可能嘛。謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：這是委員的詮釋，我們沒有認可喔。"],["主席：好，請回。謝謝徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"],["主席（徐委員巧芯代）：下一位請黃仁召委進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-6","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","馬文君","王定宇","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","沈伯洋","李坤城","王鴻薇","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00001"}}}