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{\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 205.006, \"end\": 205.327, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 205.327, \"end\": 207.288, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 207.288, \"end\": 207.508, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 207.508, \"end\": 207.768, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 207.768, \"end\": 207.788, \"score\": 0.669}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 207.788, \"end\": 208.049, \"score\": 0.668}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 208.049, \"end\": 208.229, \"score\": 0.74}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 208.229, \"end\": 208.369, \"score\": 0.704}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 208.369, \"end\": 208.729, \"score\": 0.58}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 208.729, \"end\": 209.249, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"突\", \"start\": 209.249, \"end\": 209.43, \"score\": 0.554}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 209.43, \"end\": 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還沒有定案嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 874.921, \"end\": 875.021, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 875.021, \"end\": 875.121, \"score\": 0.699}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 875.121, \"end\": 875.281, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"示\", \"start\": 875.281, \"end\": 875.421, \"score\": 0.724}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 875.421, \"end\": 875.581, \"score\": 0.756}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 875.581, \"end\": 875.821, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 875.821, \"end\": 875.921, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 875.921, \"end\": 876.001, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 876.001, \"end\": 876.401, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 876.401, \"end\": 876.762, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 876.762, \"end\": 877.142, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 877.142, 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\"有\", \"start\": 888.545, \"end\": 888.565, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 888.565, \"end\": 888.645, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"稿\", \"start\": 888.645, \"end\": 888.745, \"score\": 0.73}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 888.745, \"end\": 888.845, \"score\": 0.774}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 888.845, \"end\": 889.025, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 889.025, \"end\": 889.265, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 889.265, \"end\": 889.285, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 891.482, \"end\": 901.869, \"text\": \"因為現在的關稅的衝擊我們還要看實際的狀況所以我跟瑋瑜說這包括可能還會有地區別的不同所以還沒有具體方案出來不是沒有具體方案有但是這裡面的情境跟參數我們其實現在還在看現在實質發生的狀況來做要因地制宜那我就問你就是這一次因應2025高關稅的衝擊你的方案會完全比照2019新冠疫情有的一個都不會少而且還會再加碼是這樣子嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 891.482, \"end\": 892.062, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 892.062, \"end\": 892.263, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"的\", 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\"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,189 --> 00:00:05,812\n王玉明委員質詢邱政經委員質詢完後我們休息十分鐘好謝謝主席我要先請我們審計部的副審計長李順寶副審計長王委員好\n\n2\n00:00:25,443 --> 00:00:43,079\n副審計長你好我想就教你我們審計法第21條的規定是什麼審計法第21條主要規定說審計機關對於各機關違背預算或有關法令的不當支出得踢除追繳制\n\n3\n00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:46,162\n得剔除追繳資嘛那請問你們根據審計法第21條你的去認定他的違法需不需要經過司法機關還是審計部就可以進行認定\n\n4\n00:00:59,069 --> 00:01:19,121\n要看個別的個案的案情像有些案情他其實他涉及刑事責任刑事責任就包括從檢調的偵查處理然後最後提起公訴然後進入法院的審理因為那個相關的案情會影響最後\n\n5\n00:01:20,923 --> 00:01:34,833\n財務責任如果他有涉及財務責任他的範圍跟金額另外一部分是監察院他如果已經立案調查他那個調查結果也會影響我們對相關剔除金額的判定\n\n6\n00:01:35,333 --> 00:01:57,245\n有沒有你進行認定的有審計部進行認定的過去你在監督中央跟地方有嘛對不對那另外跟委員特別報告就是說我們21條訂的這個條文的背景當初是在民國60我印象中是60年的時候訂的當時因為對個別公務人員他的\n\n7\n00:01:58,906 --> 00:02:16,161\n行政救濟跟保障的相關法制比較不健全那當時沒有相關的法制但是現在我們如果直接採剔除去處理其實在實務上會有很多困難因為剔除去處理的話根據審計法78條規定是要限期追繳也就是說我們苛責機關因為我們是追繳對象是要機關去追繳限期是三個月\n\n8\n00:02:25,388 --> 00:02:49,991\n然後機關要做出行政處分那現在的法治這個行政處分到個人到公務人員身上他會尋各種救濟程序包括保訓會包括訴願然後行政法院訴訟那個就會拖很長實際上就會有這個問題所以你們就變成不敢使用嗎不敢使用剔除嗎\n\n9\n00:02:50,832 --> 00:03:07,702\n還是很多案情非常單純好那我就要直接問你了針對這一次整個救安基金違法使用這個七千多萬你們一開始在認定上面是用途規定衛福也就是違反了它原來的使用規定對不對\n\n10\n00:03:09,335 --> 00:03:22,590\n曾經用過這個文字不是曾經你們一直到昨天下午的2點55分送出來的4月8號2點55分送出來的報告其實都還是用途未符\n\n11\n00:03:23,325 --> 00:03:37,856\n一直都是這樣子但是在4點37分的時候我們收到的報告突然就改成了關聯性不高你們這個是不是就是關關相護想要去大事化小避重就輕是要幫勞動部解套\n\n12\n00:03:40,618 --> 00:04:07,154\n因為如果是用途未符的話那就是要依據你審計法第21條它已經違反了法令所以依法你們應該是要剔除應該是要追繳但是你們為什麼過去都是用這個現在突然變成關聯性不高關聯性不高有沒有違法呢有沒有違法使用呢用途未符是不是就是違反法令規定\n\n13\n00:04:09,132 --> 00:04:29,758\n你知不知道這個名稱被改變了你們審計部有報告誰下令的沒有誰下令是我們在短短的時間改變喔這怎麼可能沒有人下令呢沒有這個是因為我們誰改的嘛你改的沒有我們是重新再核對包括說勞動部要求你改的沒有跟委員報告沒有這是我們自己來做處理的\n\n14\n00:04:30,498 --> 00:04:49,877\n那你們就是自己審計部的職權你們自己治降你們的職權啊該引用的沒引用該剔除的不剔除然後幫勞動部開脫用一個關聯性不高所以關聯性不高他就不用剔除也不用追繳所以就可以重新再去由公務預算裡面來編列是不是這樣子\n\n15\n00:04:50,878 --> 00:05:06,585\n不是那個跟委員報告其實我們修正那為什麼要改變嘛你告訴我為什麼用途不符就是用途不符就是沒有按照規定嘛那你為什麼要改變成關聯性不高嘛理由何在嘛你講一個理由出來是跟委員報告就是我們在給\n\n16\n00:05:08,305 --> 00:05:34,235\n勞動部的審核通知還有歷次勞動部深入內容即使來來來來反反之相關的文字其實這兩個文字都有用到包括用途不符因為你們一直都是用用途規定未符其實你們一開始的措辭還蠻強烈的而且你們還說要追繳要剔除追繳你們回去掉錄影帶在去年底的時候\n\n17\n00:05:34,795 --> 00:05:59,016\n你們公開在院會接受答詢的時候你們是說要剔除而且要追究相關人員的責任結果到今天委員會正式專案要去討論的時候你們說了你們變成是關聯性不高也沒有剔除也沒有追究相關的用詞在整篇通篇的報告裡面通通都消失了被消失\n\n18\n00:06:00,117 --> 00:06:07,519\n你們審計部你們本來就應該要擔負起你們應有的職權為什麼現在變成是輕輕放下關關相護呢委員這個違法的事證這麼的明確連謝英勇本人都已經承認犯罪包含在這七千萬裡面結果你們竟然用一個關聯性不高當事人都承認違法你用一個關聯性不高來包裹這七千多萬這合理嗎這對嗎\n\n19\n00:06:27,059 --> 00:06:44,844\n跟委員報告就是剛剛個案涉及刑責部分如果以後確定判決我還要跟你追究另外一個另外一個就是演唱會的支出這一筆你們為什麼沒有追究呢這個涉案的事情這麼的明顯完全違反使用規定你這個也要用關聯性不高這是徹徹底底的違法\n\n20\n00:06:51,461 --> 00:06:58,829\n辦個人演唱會跟救安基金的使用這個在你們審計部的眼中是關聯性不高而已嗎這不是違法不當使用嗎為什麼不引用你的審計法第21條去究責去剔除你連這一筆你都不敢剔除你說其他它有一些文宣品\n\n21\n00:07:11,544 --> 00:07:27,450\n加減跟勞動部的業務有關請問這一筆呢這花的都是這個整個都在做演唱會的錢啊你審計部為什麼這一筆不敢追究這一筆為什麼不敢挑出來就直接用剔除用追繳去追究個人責任\n\n22\n00:07:28,570 --> 00:07:38,576\n而且你這一筆你有送司法嗎?有送檢調嗎?有送監察院嗎?根本不知道這個有送監察院這個有送監察院?那既然都送監察院你在你這個審計的權責裡面為什麼這一筆你不敢主動去剔除?這個怎麼會只是關聯性不高呢?\n\n23\n00:07:47,287 --> 00:08:07,396\n根據這個違法這麼的明確影帶製作影像拍攝這些東西跟救安基金的使用用途跟勞工的就業這個會有在你們的審計的看法裡面這個會有關聯嗎這完全不關聯吧所以你的行政權你的審計權現在等於是\n\n24\n00:08:09,946 --> 00:08:29,291\n放著不敢用嘛如果按照你剛剛的描述就是你要等監察院認定的你要等這個檢調認定的但是我看過你們對於地方政府的剔除啊有一些你們說剔除就剔除啊那我再看司法機關跟監察院的沒有啊那你這是雙標欸怎麼會聽到這件事情就轉彎呢不會不會轉彎不會轉彎要不要剔除涉及司法部分最後確定判決我們還是會追究財務責任\n\n25\n00:08:40,540 --> 00:08:55,638\n你這一個部分你都不敢從你審計的角度就是去追究責任你們這個就是輕輕放下嘛你沒有上面的壓力嗎有沒有人來告訴你這件事情該怎麼辦怎麼會一開始你們的態度那麼強硬到現在整個都縮回去了\n\n26\n00:08:56,767 --> 00:09:11,442\n我們審計部始終如一啦從頭到尾包括你沒有始終如一連報告都去偷偷修改那個字眼了什麼關聯性不高你還你這個審計部我希望你審計部啊各部會有各部會有權責做錯的事情該糾正的該是你審計部的該去剔除的該去追繳的這是你的責任啦是是\n\n27\n00:09:17,688 --> 00:09:33,100\n你們要硬起來這個368.7萬我要求審計部你們要去剔除跟追繳你們回去好好再審議一次啊這個部分為什麼連動都不敢動我覺得這有問題啊不要讓人家覺得你想要護航這個前部長啊我也不希望這後面有人下令啊去做這樣的事情啊因為追繳一定會追繳到許明春個人的責任啊這是他做的全責啊那為什麼謝義勇就是許明春沒有事\n\n28\n00:09:46,681 --> 00:09:50,864\n對但你沒有引用你的21條去剔除跟追繳嘛我現在在講的是這個嘛你不敢動用你的審計權嘛這個就是問題啊這個部分我希望這個副審議長你回去跟審計長報告今天在委員會裡面\n\n29\n00:10:02,473 --> 00:10:08,396\n我就是要揪出有這樣的事情我希望你們該剔除的就是要剔除該追繳要追繳因為這個是國家的錢好嗎不容是個人去濫用之後又不追繳還要用公務的基金然後來墊付這個全民也不會同意的好你先請回接下來我要問這個勞動部部長\n\n30\n00:10:29,861 --> 00:10:48,532\n部長頭號的問題我問你許民村開演唱會的這三百多萬該不該剔除追繳追究個人責任剔除與否這當然是審計的我已經要求他們應該要剔除那站在勞動部的立場呢你這一筆錢你的救援基金就這樣子被濫用掉了嗎要不要去追繳我們從審計這邊得到的是修正檢列\n\n31\n00:10:54,758 --> 00:11:14,875\n我在問你的立場部長不要閃躲你在外面去講話的時候演講的時候慷慨激昂民主側翼來到委員會的時候要你表態的時候你都支支吾吾我沒有閃躲我從頭到尾我們的態度就是尊重審計部的判定從一開始\n\n32\n00:11:17,237 --> 00:11:39,397\n從一開始這一份大家現在引用的是審計部的報告來的我們從頭一開始從12月到現在的態度都是我們會尊重審計部的判定尊重審計部的判定審計部說要剔除追繳你就會依法辦理對不對如果審計部他判定剔除的話當然在法律上面我們就會有責任要去追繳\n\n33\n00:11:40,437 --> 00:12:05,368\n對你會依法辦理這是法律的就變成是法律對於機關的要求了另外接下來我要問你高關稅底下的這個衝擊高關稅這個是現在勞工非常擔心的一個問題因為它衝擊的範圍可能可以到2008年的金融海嘯那麼的大但是我看到現在勞動部裡面端出來的措施我只看到一項\n\n34\n00:12:06,707 --> 00:12:33,573\n而且這一項裡面你的雇用安定措施裡面呢你只有補助橡膠製造機械設備其他運輸工具還有零件製造業為什麼是設定這幾個行業你們對外公告的只有這一些你們要去補貼長達6個月減班休息勞工的薪資差了50%跟文說明我們的相關的措施不是只有這一項而已當然不是只有這一項那還有什麼你可以告訴大家來\n\n35\n00:12:35,134 --> 00:12:58,671\n第一個當然現在包括如果有發生減班休息的話我們其實給減班休息有相關的充電債出發那我們現在也在調整跟檢討包括這些相關的適用的範圍包括適用的對象包括是不是要做相關的加碼那所以現在當然不是只有這個雇用安定措施的這一項你們對外講的就是這一項我們對外講並不是只講這一項\n\n36\n00:13:01,226 --> 00:13:29,989\n那還有什麼呢?有補助新年就業計畫嗎?我也沒看到啊有補助公部門擴大金融計畫嗎?有2019新冠疫情嗎?2019新冠疫情所有的措施你們現在通通都有跟王老師說明其實我們現在相關的措施包括對青年的包括對失業勞工包括對可能會減班休息的我們計畫都列出來那我們現在是希望要再把它規劃一個因應關稅的版本\n\n37\n00:13:31,035 --> 00:13:46,617\n因為比方說像這個新冠疫情的時候主要針對的是服務業服務業的勞工可是這一次可能因關稅不只過大他的業別也不同他這次可能是製造業是出口業跟過去是服務業的狀況不同\n\n38\n00:13:47,478 --> 00:14:04,231\n所以我們要規劃一個因應關稅的版本新冠疫情的時候是556億的救安基金加150億的就業保險基金總共是706億你們現在你說你的高關稅衝擊你會擴大比新冠疫情你的措施還要多結果你現在是150億那請問你是怎麼做的\n\n39\n00:14:07,595 --> 00:14:32,280\n我跟委員說明我們目前現在是先框150億但如果還需要還要再擴大的話目前以救安基金跟救阿基金所以你剛剛講的就是假的啊沒有假的為什麼是假的150億為什麼可以做到這個新冠疫情的706億的事情而且還比它多這就是假的啊跟委員說明虛的其實這都要看產業實質衝擊的狀況\n\n40\n00:14:34,921 --> 00:14:49,285\n所以表示你們現在還沒有準備好嗎你說有其實都是只是一個方向而已不是只是方向現在這些措施我們要規劃一個因應我們現在正在規劃因應關稅的版本所以還沒有定稿嗎還沒有定案嗎\n\n41\n00:14:51,482 --> 00:15:01,869\n因為現在的關稅的衝擊我們還要看實際的狀況所以我跟瑋瑜說這包括可能還會有地區別的不同所以還沒有具體方案出來不是沒有具體方案有但是這裡面的情境跟參數我們其實現在還在看現在實質發生的狀況來做要因地制宜那我就問你就是這一次因應2025高關稅的衝擊你的方案會完全比照2019新冠疫情有的一個都不會少而且還會再加碼是這樣子嗎\n\n42\n00:15:22,383 --> 00:15:45,528\n不只是不會要能夠用得上的因為當時真的有些情境是不同的比方說當時很多是服務業現在有很多是製造業所以當我們要來協助製造業可能他會受影響的失業勞工他要去希望雇主擴大去聘用他的時候這也會要看當地因為你很難叫一個台南的勞工他到台北\n\n43\n00:15:45,868 --> 00:15:50,412\n我知道還要去因地制宜所以勞工會想要知道你現在因應高關稅衝擊的這個補助的整個勞動部的規模會不會比照至少會有2019新冠疫情這些所有的措施一個都不會多不會少措施都在我們現在是正在規劃經濟跟因應關稅的版本的方案甚至如果需要的話我們還會再加碼\n\n44\n00:16:14,491 --> 00:16:41,968\n所以都會有我可以這樣講嗎這些措施都在都有這些措施都有這些措施都在那我們現在是要再做因地制宜包括因接下來的情境的這個更精準的設定那甚至需要的話包括擴大對象跟加碼這都是現在正在進行規劃如果你150億不夠的話你下一個階段你的錢要從哪裡來目前確實包括救保跟救安基目前還有一些餘裕\n\n45\n00:16:43,257 --> 00:17:08,076\n所以還是從救安基金來嗎救安跟救保對那你的救安基金那7000萬的追繳就更重要了我提醒你因為你那邊虧掉了7000多萬你現在是400多億你比之前的新冠疫情的你的556億還要少所以7000萬大家都希望部長你在這個位置上面要幫老百姓做一些事情要去把它追繳回來讓救安基金更充實\n\n46\n00:17:08,897 --> 00:17:20,910\n跟委員說明要跟個人的追究我想我們是行政部門我們也需要有法律上面的依據當然但是你行政部門的職權也不要晾在一邊不會就是不想去做不會當然不會好謝謝謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n189\t5812\t王玉明委員質詢邱政經委員質詢完後我們休息十分鐘好 謝謝主席我要先請我們審計部的副審計長李順寶副審計長王委員好\n25443\t43079\t副審計長你好我想就教你我們審計法第21條的規定是什麼審計法第21條主要規定說審計機關對於各機關違背預算或有關法令的不當支出得踢除追繳制\n44400\t46162\t得剔除追繳資嘛那請問你們根據審計法第21條你的去認定他的違法需不需要經過司法機關還是審計部就可以進行認定\n59069\t79121\t要看個別的個案的案情像有些案情他其實他涉及刑事責任刑事責任就包括從檢調的偵查處理然後最後提起公訴然後進入法院的審理因為那個相關的案情會影響最後\n80923\t94833\t財務責任如果他有涉及財務責任他的範圍跟金額另外一部分是監察院他如果已經立案調查他那個調查結果也會影響我們對相關剔除金額的判定\n95333\t117245\t有沒有你進行認定的 有審計部進行認定的過去你在監督中央跟地方 有嘛 對不對那另外跟委員特別報告就是說我們21條訂的這個條文的背景當初是在民國60 我印象中是60年的時候訂的當時因為對個別公務人員他的\n118906\t136161\t行政救濟跟保障的相關法制比較不健全那當時沒有相關的法制但是現在我們如果直接採剔除去處理其實在實務上會有很多困難因為剔除去處理的話根據審計法78條規定是要限期追繳也就是說我們苛責機關因為我們是追繳對象是要機關去追繳限期是三個月\n145388\t169991\t然後機關要做出行政處分那現在的法治這個行政處分到個人到公務人員身上他會尋各種救濟程序包括保訓會包括訴願然後行政法院訴訟那個就會拖很長實際上就會有這個問題所以你們就變成不敢使用嗎不敢使用剔除嗎\n170832\t187702\t還是很多案情非常單純好 那我就要直接問你了針對這一次整個救安基金違法使用這個七千多萬你們一開始在認定上面是用途規定衛福也就是違反了它原來的使用規定對不對\n189335\t202590\t曾經用過這個文字不是曾經你們一直到昨天下午的2點55分送出來的4月8號2點55分送出來的報告其實都還是用途未符\n203325\t217856\t一直都是這樣子但是在4點37分的時候我們收到的報告突然就改成了關聯性不高你們這個是不是就是關關相護想要去大事化小 避重就輕是要幫勞動部解套\n220618\t247154\t因為如果是用途未符的話那就是要依據你審計法第21條它已經違反了法令所以依法你們應該是要剔除應該是要追繳但是你們為什麼過去都是用這個現在突然變成關聯性不高關聯性不高有沒有違法呢有沒有違法使用呢用途未符是不是就是違反法令規定\n249132\t269758\t你知不知道這個名稱被改變了你們審計部有報告誰下令的沒有誰下令是我們在短短的時間改變喔這怎麼可能沒有人下令呢沒有這個是因為我們誰改的嘛你改的沒有我們是重新再核對包括說勞動部要求你改的沒有跟委員報告沒有這是我們自己來做處理的\n270498\t289877\t那你們就是自己審計部的職權 你們自己治降你們的職權啊該引用的沒引用 該剔除的不剔除然後幫勞動部開脫 用一個關聯性不高所以關聯性不高 他就不用剔除 也不用追繳所以就可以重新再去由公務預算裡面來編列 是不是這樣子\n290878\t306585\t不是 那個跟委員報告 其實我們修正那為什麼要改變嘛 你告訴我為什麼用途不符就是用途不符就是沒有按照規定嘛那你為什麼要改變成關聯性不高嘛理由何在嘛 你講一個理由出來是 跟委員報告就是我們在給\n308305\t334235\t勞動部的審核通知還有歷次勞動部深入內容即使來來來來反反之相關的文字其實這兩個文字都有用到包括用途不符因為你們一直都是用用途規定未符其實你們一開始的措辭還蠻強烈的而且你們還說要追繳要剔除追繳你們回去掉錄影帶在去年底的時候\n334795\t359016\t你們公開在院會接受答詢的時候你們是說要剔除而且要追究相關人員的責任結果到今天委員會正式專案要去討論的時候你們說了你們變成是關聯性不高也沒有剔除也沒有追究相關的用詞在整篇通篇的報告裡面通通都消失了被消失\n360117\t367519\t你們審計部 你們本來就應該要擔負起你們應有的職權為什麼現在變成是輕輕放下 關關相護呢委員 這個違法的事證這麼的明確連謝英勇本人都已經承認犯罪包含在這七千萬裡面結果你們竟然用一個關聯性不高 當事人都承認違法你用一個關聯性不高來包裹這七千多萬 這合理嗎 這對嗎\n387059\t404844\t跟委員報告就是剛剛個案涉及刑責部分如果以後確定判決我還要跟你追究另外一個另外一個就是演唱會的支出這一筆你們為什麼沒有追究呢這個涉案的事情這麼的明顯完全違反使用規定你這個也要用關聯性不高這是徹徹底底的違法\n411461\t418829\t辦個人演唱會跟救安基金的使用這個在你們審計部的眼中是關聯性不高而已嗎這不是違法不當使用嗎為什麼不引用你的審計法第21條去究責 去剔除你連這一筆你都不敢剔除你說其他它有一些文宣品\n431544\t447450\t加減跟勞動部的業務有關請問這一筆呢這花的都是這個整個都在做演唱會的錢啊你審計部為什麼這一筆不敢追究這一筆為什麼不敢挑出來就直接用剔除用追繳去追究個人責任\n448570\t458576\t而且你這一筆你有送司法嗎?有送檢調嗎?有送監察院嗎?根本不知道 這個有送監察院這個有送監察院?那既然都送監察院 你在你這個審計的權責裡面為什麼這一筆你不敢主動去剔除?這個怎麼會只是關聯性不高呢?\n467287\t487396\t根據這個違法這麼的明確影帶製作影像拍攝這些東西跟救安基金的使用用途跟勞工的就業這個會有在你們的審計的看法裡面這個會有關聯嗎這完全不關聯吧所以你的行政權你的審計權現在等於是\n489946\t509291\t放著不敢用嘛如果按照你剛剛的描述就是你要等監察院認定的你要等這個檢調認定的但是我看過你們對於地方政府的剔除啊有一些你們說剔除就剔除啊那我再看司法機關跟監察院的沒有啊那你這是雙標欸怎麼會聽到這件事情就轉彎呢不會不會轉彎不會轉彎要不要剔除涉及司法部分最後確定判決我們還是會追究財務責任\n520540\t535638\t你這一個部分你都不敢從你審計的角度就是去追究責任你們這個就是輕輕放下嘛你沒有上面的壓力嗎有沒有人來告訴你這件事情該怎麼辦怎麼會一開始你們的態度那麼強硬到現在整個都縮回去了\n536767\t551442\t我們審計部始終如一啦從頭到尾包括你沒有始終如一連報告都去偷偷修改那個字眼了什麼關聯性不高你還你這個審計部我希望你審計部啊各部會有各部會有權責做錯的事情該糾正的該是你審計部的該去剔除的該去追繳的這是你的責任啦是是\n557688\t573100\t你們要硬起來 這個368.7萬我要求審計部你們要去剔除跟追繳你們回去好好再審議一次啊這個部分為什麼連動都不敢動我覺得這有問題啊不要讓人家覺得你想要護航這個前部長啊我也不希望這後面有人下令啊去做這樣的事情啊因為追繳一定會追繳到許明春個人的責任啊這是他做的全責啊那為什麼謝義勇就是許明春沒有事\n586681\t590864\t對 但你沒有引用你的21條去剔除跟追繳嘛我現在在講的是這個嘛 你不敢動用你的審計權嘛這個就是問題啊這個部分我希望這個副審議長你回去跟審計長報告 今天在委員會裡面\n602473\t608396\t我就是要揪出有這樣的事情我希望你們該剔除的就是要剔除 該追繳要追繳因為這個是國家的錢好嗎不容是個人去濫用之後又不追繳還要用公務的基金然後來墊付這個全民也不會同意的好你先請回接下來我要問這個勞動部部長\n629861\t648532\t部長頭號的問題我問你許民村開演唱會的這三百多萬該不該剔除追繳追究個人責任剔除與否這當然是審計的我已經要求他們應該要剔除那站在勞動部的立場呢你這一筆錢你的救援基金就這樣子被濫用掉了嗎要不要去追繳我們從審計這邊得到的是修正檢列\n654758\t674875\t我在問你的立場 部長 不要閃躲你在外面去講話的時候 演講的時候 慷慨激昂 民主側翼來到委員會的時候 要你表態的時候 你都支支吾吾我沒有閃躲 我從頭到尾我們的態度就是尊重審計部的判定從一開始\n677237\t699397\t從一開始這一份大家現在引用的是審計部的報告來的我們從頭一開始從12月到現在的態度都是我們會尊重審計部的判定尊重審計部的判定審計部說要剔除追繳你就會依法辦理對不對如果審計部他判定剔除的話當然在法律上面我們就會有責任要去追繳\n700437\t725368\t對 你會依法辦理這是法律的 就變成是法律對於機關的要求了另外 接下來我要問你高關稅底下的這個衝擊高關稅這個是現在勞工非常擔心的一個問題因為它衝擊的範圍可能可以到2008年的金融海嘯那麼的大但是我看到現在勞動部裡面端出來的措施我只看到一項\n726707\t753573\t而且這一項裡面你的雇用安定措施裡面呢你只有補助橡膠製造機械設備其他運輸工具還有零件製造業為什麼是設定這幾個行業你們對外公告的只有這一些你們要去補貼長達6個月減班休息勞工的薪資差了50%跟文說明我們的相關的措施不是只有這一項而已當然不是只有這一項那還有什麼你可以告訴大家來\n755134\t778671\t第一個當然現在包括如果有發生減班休息的話我們其實給減班休息有相關的充電債出發那我們現在也在調整跟檢討包括這些相關的適用的範圍包括適用的對象包括是不是要做相關的加碼那所以現在當然不是只有這個雇用安定措施的這一項你們對外講的就是這一項我們對外講並不是只講這一項\n781226\t809989\t那還有什麼呢?有補助新年就業計畫嗎?我也沒看到啊有補助公部門擴大金融計畫嗎?有2019新冠疫情嗎?2019新冠疫情所有的措施你們現在通通都有跟王老師說明其實我們現在相關的措施包括對青年的包括對失業勞工包括對可能會減班休息的我們計畫都列出來那我們現在是希望要再把它規劃一個因應關稅的版本\n811035\t826617\t因為比方說像這個新冠疫情的時候主要針對的是服務業服務業的勞工可是這一次可能因關稅不只過大他的業別也不同他這次可能是製造業是出口業跟過去是服務業的狀況不同\n827478\t844231\t所以我們要規劃一個因應關稅的版本新冠疫情的時候是556億的救安基金加150億的就業保險基金總共是706億你們現在你說你的高關稅衝擊你會擴大比新冠疫情你的措施還要多結果你現在是150億那請問你是怎麼做的\n847595\t872280\t我跟委員說明我們目前現在是先框150億但如果還需要還要再擴大的話目前以救安基金跟救阿基金所以你剛剛講的就是假的啊沒有假的為什麼是假的150億為什麼可以做到這個新冠疫情的706億的事情而且還比它多這就是假的啊跟委員說明虛的其實這都要看產業實質衝擊的狀況\n874921\t889285\t所以表示你們現在還沒有準備好嗎你說有 其實都是只是一個方向而已不是只是方向 現在這些措施我們要規劃一個因應我們現在正在規劃因應關稅的版本所以還沒有定稿嗎 還沒有定案嗎\n891482\t901869\t因為現在的關稅的衝擊我們還要看實際的狀況所以我跟瑋瑜說這包括可能還會有地區別的不同所以還沒有具體方案出來不是沒有具體方案有但是這裡面的情境跟參數我們其實現在還在看現在實質發生的狀況來做要因地制宜那我就問你就是這一次因應2025高關稅的衝擊你的方案會完全比照2019新冠疫情有的一個都不會少而且還會再加碼是這樣子嗎\n922383\t945528\t不只是不會要能夠用得上的因為當時真的有些情境是不同的比方說當時很多是服務業現在有很多是製造業所以當我們要來協助製造業可能他會受影響的失業勞工他要去希望雇主擴大去聘用他的時候這也會要看當地因為你很難叫一個台南的勞工他到台北\n945868\t950412\t我知道 還要去因地制宜所以勞工會想要知道你現在因應高關稅衝擊的這個補助的整個勞動部的規模會不會比照至少會有2019新冠疫情這些所有的措施一個都不會多不會少措施都在我們現在是正在規劃經濟跟因應關稅的版本的方案甚至如果需要的話我們還會再加碼\n974491\t1001968\t所以都會有我可以這樣講嗎這些措施都在都有這些措施都有這些措施都在那我們現在是要再做因地制宜包括因接下來的情境的這個更精準的設定那甚至需要的話包括擴大對象跟加碼這都是現在正在進行規劃如果你150億不夠的話你下一個階段你的錢要從哪裡來目前確實包括救保跟救安基目前還有一些餘裕\n1003257\t1028076\t所以還是從救安基金來嗎 救安跟救保對 那你的救安基金 那7000萬的追繳就更重要了我提醒你 因為你那邊虧掉了7000多萬 你現在是400多億你比之前的新冠疫情的你的556億還要少所以7000萬 大家都希望 部長 你在這個位置上面要幫老百姓做一些事情要去把它追繳回來 讓救安基金更充實\n1028897\t1040910\t跟委員說明要跟個人的追究我想我們是行政部門我們也需要有法律上面的依據當然但是你行政部門的職權也不要晾在一邊不會就是不想去做不會當然不會好謝謝謝謝\n","txt":"王玉明委員質詢邱政經委員質詢完後我們休息十分鐘好 謝謝主席我要先請我們審計部的副審計長李順寶副審計長王委員好\n副審計長你好我想就教你我們審計法第21條的規定是什麼審計法第21條主要規定說審計機關對於各機關違背預算或有關法令的不當支出得踢除追繳制\n得剔除追繳資嘛那請問你們根據審計法第21條你的去認定他的違法需不需要經過司法機關還是審計部就可以進行認定\n要看個別的個案的案情像有些案情他其實他涉及刑事責任刑事責任就包括從檢調的偵查處理然後最後提起公訴然後進入法院的審理因為那個相關的案情會影響最後\n財務責任如果他有涉及財務責任他的範圍跟金額另外一部分是監察院他如果已經立案調查他那個調查結果也會影響我們對相關剔除金額的判定\n有沒有你進行認定的 有審計部進行認定的過去你在監督中央跟地方 有嘛 對不對那另外跟委員特別報告就是說我們21條訂的這個條文的背景當初是在民國60 我印象中是60年的時候訂的當時因為對個別公務人員他的\n行政救濟跟保障的相關法制比較不健全那當時沒有相關的法制但是現在我們如果直接採剔除去處理其實在實務上會有很多困難因為剔除去處理的話根據審計法78條規定是要限期追繳也就是說我們苛責機關因為我們是追繳對象是要機關去追繳限期是三個月\n然後機關要做出行政處分那現在的法治這個行政處分到個人到公務人員身上他會尋各種救濟程序包括保訓會包括訴願然後行政法院訴訟那個就會拖很長實際上就會有這個問題所以你們就變成不敢使用嗎不敢使用剔除嗎\n還是很多案情非常單純好 那我就要直接問你了針對這一次整個救安基金違法使用這個七千多萬你們一開始在認定上面是用途規定衛福也就是違反了它原來的使用規定對不對\n曾經用過這個文字不是曾經你們一直到昨天下午的2點55分送出來的4月8號2點55分送出來的報告其實都還是用途未符\n一直都是這樣子但是在4點37分的時候我們收到的報告突然就改成了關聯性不高你們這個是不是就是關關相護想要去大事化小 避重就輕是要幫勞動部解套\n因為如果是用途未符的話那就是要依據你審計法第21條它已經違反了法令所以依法你們應該是要剔除應該是要追繳但是你們為什麼過去都是用這個現在突然變成關聯性不高關聯性不高有沒有違法呢有沒有違法使用呢用途未符是不是就是違反法令規定\n你知不知道這個名稱被改變了你們審計部有報告誰下令的沒有誰下令是我們在短短的時間改變喔這怎麼可能沒有人下令呢沒有這個是因為我們誰改的嘛你改的沒有我們是重新再核對包括說勞動部要求你改的沒有跟委員報告沒有這是我們自己來做處理的\n那你們就是自己審計部的職權 你們自己治降你們的職權啊該引用的沒引用 該剔除的不剔除然後幫勞動部開脫 用一個關聯性不高所以關聯性不高 他就不用剔除 也不用追繳所以就可以重新再去由公務預算裡面來編列 是不是這樣子\n不是 那個跟委員報告 其實我們修正那為什麼要改變嘛 你告訴我為什麼用途不符就是用途不符就是沒有按照規定嘛那你為什麼要改變成關聯性不高嘛理由何在嘛 你講一個理由出來是 跟委員報告就是我們在給\n勞動部的審核通知還有歷次勞動部深入內容即使來來來來反反之相關的文字其實這兩個文字都有用到包括用途不符因為你們一直都是用用途規定未符其實你們一開始的措辭還蠻強烈的而且你們還說要追繳要剔除追繳你們回去掉錄影帶在去年底的時候\n你們公開在院會接受答詢的時候你們是說要剔除而且要追究相關人員的責任結果到今天委員會正式專案要去討論的時候你們說了你們變成是關聯性不高也沒有剔除也沒有追究相關的用詞在整篇通篇的報告裡面通通都消失了被消失\n你們審計部 你們本來就應該要擔負起你們應有的職權為什麼現在變成是輕輕放下 關關相護呢委員 這個違法的事證這麼的明確連謝英勇本人都已經承認犯罪包含在這七千萬裡面結果你們竟然用一個關聯性不高 當事人都承認違法你用一個關聯性不高來包裹這七千多萬 這合理嗎 這對嗎\n跟委員報告就是剛剛個案涉及刑責部分如果以後確定判決我還要跟你追究另外一個另外一個就是演唱會的支出這一筆你們為什麼沒有追究呢這個涉案的事情這麼的明顯完全違反使用規定你這個也要用關聯性不高這是徹徹底底的違法\n辦個人演唱會跟救安基金的使用這個在你們審計部的眼中是關聯性不高而已嗎這不是違法不當使用嗎為什麼不引用你的審計法第21條去究責 去剔除你連這一筆你都不敢剔除你說其他它有一些文宣品\n加減跟勞動部的業務有關請問這一筆呢這花的都是這個整個都在做演唱會的錢啊你審計部為什麼這一筆不敢追究這一筆為什麼不敢挑出來就直接用剔除用追繳去追究個人責任\n而且你這一筆你有送司法嗎?有送檢調嗎?有送監察院嗎?根本不知道 這個有送監察院這個有送監察院?那既然都送監察院 你在你這個審計的權責裡面為什麼這一筆你不敢主動去剔除?這個怎麼會只是關聯性不高呢?\n根據這個違法這麼的明確影帶製作影像拍攝這些東西跟救安基金的使用用途跟勞工的就業這個會有在你們的審計的看法裡面這個會有關聯嗎這完全不關聯吧所以你的行政權你的審計權現在等於是\n放著不敢用嘛如果按照你剛剛的描述就是你要等監察院認定的你要等這個檢調認定的但是我看過你們對於地方政府的剔除啊有一些你們說剔除就剔除啊那我再看司法機關跟監察院的沒有啊那你這是雙標欸怎麼會聽到這件事情就轉彎呢不會不會轉彎不會轉彎要不要剔除涉及司法部分最後確定判決我們還是會追究財務責任\n你這一個部分你都不敢從你審計的角度就是去追究責任你們這個就是輕輕放下嘛你沒有上面的壓力嗎有沒有人來告訴你這件事情該怎麼辦怎麼會一開始你們的態度那麼強硬到現在整個都縮回去了\n我們審計部始終如一啦從頭到尾包括你沒有始終如一連報告都去偷偷修改那個字眼了什麼關聯性不高你還你這個審計部我希望你審計部啊各部會有各部會有權責做錯的事情該糾正的該是你審計部的該去剔除的該去追繳的這是你的責任啦是是\n你們要硬起來 這個368.7萬我要求審計部你們要去剔除跟追繳你們回去好好再審議一次啊這個部分為什麼連動都不敢動我覺得這有問題啊不要讓人家覺得你想要護航這個前部長啊我也不希望這後面有人下令啊去做這樣的事情啊因為追繳一定會追繳到許明春個人的責任啊這是他做的全責啊那為什麼謝義勇就是許明春沒有事\n對 但你沒有引用你的21條去剔除跟追繳嘛我現在在講的是這個嘛 你不敢動用你的審計權嘛這個就是問題啊這個部分我希望這個副審議長你回去跟審計長報告 今天在委員會裡面\n我就是要揪出有這樣的事情我希望你們該剔除的就是要剔除 該追繳要追繳因為這個是國家的錢好嗎不容是個人去濫用之後又不追繳還要用公務的基金然後來墊付這個全民也不會同意的好你先請回接下來我要問這個勞動部部長\n部長頭號的問題我問你許民村開演唱會的這三百多萬該不該剔除追繳追究個人責任剔除與否這當然是審計的我已經要求他們應該要剔除那站在勞動部的立場呢你這一筆錢你的救援基金就這樣子被濫用掉了嗎要不要去追繳我們從審計這邊得到的是修正檢列\n我在問你的立場 部長 不要閃躲你在外面去講話的時候 演講的時候 慷慨激昂 民主側翼來到委員會的時候 要你表態的時候 你都支支吾吾我沒有閃躲 我從頭到尾我們的態度就是尊重審計部的判定從一開始\n從一開始這一份大家現在引用的是審計部的報告來的我們從頭一開始從12月到現在的態度都是我們會尊重審計部的判定尊重審計部的判定審計部說要剔除追繳你就會依法辦理對不對如果審計部他判定剔除的話當然在法律上面我們就會有責任要去追繳\n對 你會依法辦理這是法律的 就變成是法律對於機關的要求了另外 接下來我要問你高關稅底下的這個衝擊高關稅這個是現在勞工非常擔心的一個問題因為它衝擊的範圍可能可以到2008年的金融海嘯那麼的大但是我看到現在勞動部裡面端出來的措施我只看到一項\n而且這一項裡面你的雇用安定措施裡面呢你只有補助橡膠製造機械設備其他運輸工具還有零件製造業為什麼是設定這幾個行業你們對外公告的只有這一些你們要去補貼長達6個月減班休息勞工的薪資差了50%跟文說明我們的相關的措施不是只有這一項而已當然不是只有這一項那還有什麼你可以告訴大家來\n第一個當然現在包括如果有發生減班休息的話我們其實給減班休息有相關的充電債出發那我們現在也在調整跟檢討包括這些相關的適用的範圍包括適用的對象包括是不是要做相關的加碼那所以現在當然不是只有這個雇用安定措施的這一項你們對外講的就是這一項我們對外講並不是只講這一項\n那還有什麼呢?有補助新年就業計畫嗎?我也沒看到啊有補助公部門擴大金融計畫嗎?有2019新冠疫情嗎?2019新冠疫情所有的措施你們現在通通都有跟王老師說明其實我們現在相關的措施包括對青年的包括對失業勞工包括對可能會減班休息的我們計畫都列出來那我們現在是希望要再把它規劃一個因應關稅的版本\n因為比方說像這個新冠疫情的時候主要針對的是服務業服務業的勞工可是這一次可能因關稅不只過大他的業別也不同他這次可能是製造業是出口業跟過去是服務業的狀況不同\n所以我們要規劃一個因應關稅的版本新冠疫情的時候是556億的救安基金加150億的就業保險基金總共是706億你們現在你說你的高關稅衝擊你會擴大比新冠疫情你的措施還要多結果你現在是150億那請問你是怎麼做的\n我跟委員說明我們目前現在是先框150億但如果還需要還要再擴大的話目前以救安基金跟救阿基金所以你剛剛講的就是假的啊沒有假的為什麼是假的150億為什麼可以做到這個新冠疫情的706億的事情而且還比它多這就是假的啊跟委員說明虛的其實這都要看產業實質衝擊的狀況\n所以表示你們現在還沒有準備好嗎你說有 其實都是只是一個方向而已不是只是方向 現在這些措施我們要規劃一個因應我們現在正在規劃因應關稅的版本所以還沒有定稿嗎 還沒有定案嗎\n因為現在的關稅的衝擊我們還要看實際的狀況所以我跟瑋瑜說這包括可能還會有地區別的不同所以還沒有具體方案出來不是沒有具體方案有但是這裡面的情境跟參數我們其實現在還在看現在實質發生的狀況來做要因地制宜那我就問你就是這一次因應2025高關稅的衝擊你的方案會完全比照2019新冠疫情有的一個都不會少而且還會再加碼是這樣子嗎\n不只是不會要能夠用得上的因為當時真的有些情境是不同的比方說當時很多是服務業現在有很多是製造業所以當我們要來協助製造業可能他會受影響的失業勞工他要去希望雇主擴大去聘用他的時候這也會要看當地因為你很難叫一個台南的勞工他到台北\n我知道 還要去因地制宜所以勞工會想要知道你現在因應高關稅衝擊的這個補助的整個勞動部的規模會不會比照至少會有2019新冠疫情這些所有的措施一個都不會多不會少措施都在我們現在是正在規劃經濟跟因應關稅的版本的方案甚至如果需要的話我們還會再加碼\n所以都會有我可以這樣講嗎這些措施都在都有這些措施都有這些措施都在那我們現在是要再做因地制宜包括因接下來的情境的這個更精準的設定那甚至需要的話包括擴大對象跟加碼這都是現在正在進行規劃如果你150億不夠的話你下一個階段你的錢要從哪裡來目前確實包括救保跟救安基目前還有一些餘裕\n所以還是從救安基金來嗎 救安跟救保對 那你的救安基金 那7000萬的追繳就更重要了我提醒你 因為你那邊虧掉了7000多萬 你現在是400多億你比之前的新冠疫情的你的556億還要少所以7000萬 大家都希望 部長 你在這個位置上面要幫老百姓做一些事情要去把它追繳回來 讓救安基金更充實\n跟委員說明要跟個人的追究我想我們是行政部門我們也需要有法律上面的依據當然但是你行政部門的職權也不要晾在一邊不會就是不想去做不會當然不會好謝謝謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.189 --> 00:05.812\n王玉明委員質詢邱政經委員質詢完後我們休息十分鐘好謝謝主席我要先請我們審計部的副審計長李順寶副審計長王委員好\n\n00:25.443 --> 00:43.079\n副審計長你好我想就教你我們審計法第21條的規定是什麼審計法第21條主要規定說審計機關對於各機關違背預算或有關法令的不當支出得踢除追繳制\n\n00:44.400 --> 00:46.162\n得剔除追繳資嘛那請問你們根據審計法第21條你的去認定他的違法需不需要經過司法機關還是審計部就可以進行認定\n\n00:59.069 --> 01:19.121\n要看個別的個案的案情像有些案情他其實他涉及刑事責任刑事責任就包括從檢調的偵查處理然後最後提起公訴然後進入法院的審理因為那個相關的案情會影響最後\n\n01:20.923 --> 01:34.833\n財務責任如果他有涉及財務責任他的範圍跟金額另外一部分是監察院他如果已經立案調查他那個調查結果也會影響我們對相關剔除金額的判定\n\n01:35.333 --> 01:57.245\n有沒有你進行認定的有審計部進行認定的過去你在監督中央跟地方有嘛對不對那另外跟委員特別報告就是說我們21條訂的這個條文的背景當初是在民國60我印象中是60年的時候訂的當時因為對個別公務人員他的\n\n01:58.906 --> 02:16.161\n行政救濟跟保障的相關法制比較不健全那當時沒有相關的法制但是現在我們如果直接採剔除去處理其實在實務上會有很多困難因為剔除去處理的話根據審計法78條規定是要限期追繳也就是說我們苛責機關因為我們是追繳對象是要機關去追繳限期是三個月\n\n02:25.388 --> 02:49.991\n然後機關要做出行政處分那現在的法治這個行政處分到個人到公務人員身上他會尋各種救濟程序包括保訓會包括訴願然後行政法院訴訟那個就會拖很長實際上就會有這個問題所以你們就變成不敢使用嗎不敢使用剔除嗎\n\n02:50.832 --> 03:07.702\n還是很多案情非常單純好那我就要直接問你了針對這一次整個救安基金違法使用這個七千多萬你們一開始在認定上面是用途規定衛福也就是違反了它原來的使用規定對不對\n\n03:09.335 --> 03:22.590\n曾經用過這個文字不是曾經你們一直到昨天下午的2點55分送出來的4月8號2點55分送出來的報告其實都還是用途未符\n\n03:23.325 --> 03:37.856\n一直都是這樣子但是在4點37分的時候我們收到的報告突然就改成了關聯性不高你們這個是不是就是關關相護想要去大事化小避重就輕是要幫勞動部解套\n\n03:40.618 --> 04:07.154\n因為如果是用途未符的話那就是要依據你審計法第21條它已經違反了法令所以依法你們應該是要剔除應該是要追繳但是你們為什麼過去都是用這個現在突然變成關聯性不高關聯性不高有沒有違法呢有沒有違法使用呢用途未符是不是就是違反法令規定\n\n04:09.132 --> 04:29.758\n你知不知道這個名稱被改變了你們審計部有報告誰下令的沒有誰下令是我們在短短的時間改變喔這怎麼可能沒有人下令呢沒有這個是因為我們誰改的嘛你改的沒有我們是重新再核對包括說勞動部要求你改的沒有跟委員報告沒有這是我們自己來做處理的\n\n04:30.498 --> 04:49.877\n那你們就是自己審計部的職權你們自己治降你們的職權啊該引用的沒引用該剔除的不剔除然後幫勞動部開脫用一個關聯性不高所以關聯性不高他就不用剔除也不用追繳所以就可以重新再去由公務預算裡面來編列是不是這樣子\n\n04:50.878 --> 05:06.585\n不是那個跟委員報告其實我們修正那為什麼要改變嘛你告訴我為什麼用途不符就是用途不符就是沒有按照規定嘛那你為什麼要改變成關聯性不高嘛理由何在嘛你講一個理由出來是跟委員報告就是我們在給\n\n05:08.305 --> 05:34.235\n勞動部的審核通知還有歷次勞動部深入內容即使來來來來反反之相關的文字其實這兩個文字都有用到包括用途不符因為你們一直都是用用途規定未符其實你們一開始的措辭還蠻強烈的而且你們還說要追繳要剔除追繳你們回去掉錄影帶在去年底的時候\n\n05:34.795 --> 05:59.016\n你們公開在院會接受答詢的時候你們是說要剔除而且要追究相關人員的責任結果到今天委員會正式專案要去討論的時候你們說了你們變成是關聯性不高也沒有剔除也沒有追究相關的用詞在整篇通篇的報告裡面通通都消失了被消失\n\n06:00.117 --> 06:07.519\n你們審計部你們本來就應該要擔負起你們應有的職權為什麼現在變成是輕輕放下關關相護呢委員這個違法的事證這麼的明確連謝英勇本人都已經承認犯罪包含在這七千萬裡面結果你們竟然用一個關聯性不高當事人都承認違法你用一個關聯性不高來包裹這七千多萬這合理嗎這對嗎\n\n06:27.059 --> 06:44.844\n跟委員報告就是剛剛個案涉及刑責部分如果以後確定判決我還要跟你追究另外一個另外一個就是演唱會的支出這一筆你們為什麼沒有追究呢這個涉案的事情這麼的明顯完全違反使用規定你這個也要用關聯性不高這是徹徹底底的違法\n\n06:51.461 --> 06:58.829\n辦個人演唱會跟救安基金的使用這個在你們審計部的眼中是關聯性不高而已嗎這不是違法不當使用嗎為什麼不引用你的審計法第21條去究責去剔除你連這一筆你都不敢剔除你說其他它有一些文宣品\n\n07:11.544 --> 07:27.450\n加減跟勞動部的業務有關請問這一筆呢這花的都是這個整個都在做演唱會的錢啊你審計部為什麼這一筆不敢追究這一筆為什麼不敢挑出來就直接用剔除用追繳去追究個人責任\n\n07:28.570 --> 07:38.576\n而且你這一筆你有送司法嗎?有送檢調嗎?有送監察院嗎?根本不知道這個有送監察院這個有送監察院?那既然都送監察院你在你這個審計的權責裡面為什麼這一筆你不敢主動去剔除?這個怎麼會只是關聯性不高呢?\n\n07:47.287 --> 08:07.396\n根據這個違法這麼的明確影帶製作影像拍攝這些東西跟救安基金的使用用途跟勞工的就業這個會有在你們的審計的看法裡面這個會有關聯嗎這完全不關聯吧所以你的行政權你的審計權現在等於是\n\n08:09.946 --> 08:29.291\n放著不敢用嘛如果按照你剛剛的描述就是你要等監察院認定的你要等這個檢調認定的但是我看過你們對於地方政府的剔除啊有一些你們說剔除就剔除啊那我再看司法機關跟監察院的沒有啊那你這是雙標欸怎麼會聽到這件事情就轉彎呢不會不會轉彎不會轉彎要不要剔除涉及司法部分最後確定判決我們還是會追究財務責任\n\n08:40.540 --> 08:55.638\n你這一個部分你都不敢從你審計的角度就是去追究責任你們這個就是輕輕放下嘛你沒有上面的壓力嗎有沒有人來告訴你這件事情該怎麼辦怎麼會一開始你們的態度那麼強硬到現在整個都縮回去了\n\n08:56.767 --> 09:11.442\n我們審計部始終如一啦從頭到尾包括你沒有始終如一連報告都去偷偷修改那個字眼了什麼關聯性不高你還你這個審計部我希望你審計部啊各部會有各部會有權責做錯的事情該糾正的該是你審計部的該去剔除的該去追繳的這是你的責任啦是是\n\n09:17.688 --> 09:33.100\n你們要硬起來這個368.7萬我要求審計部你們要去剔除跟追繳你們回去好好再審議一次啊這個部分為什麼連動都不敢動我覺得這有問題啊不要讓人家覺得你想要護航這個前部長啊我也不希望這後面有人下令啊去做這樣的事情啊因為追繳一定會追繳到許明春個人的責任啊這是他做的全責啊那為什麼謝義勇就是許明春沒有事\n\n09:46.681 --> 09:50.864\n對但你沒有引用你的21條去剔除跟追繳嘛我現在在講的是這個嘛你不敢動用你的審計權嘛這個就是問題啊這個部分我希望這個副審議長你回去跟審計長報告今天在委員會裡面\n\n10:02.473 --> 10:08.396\n我就是要揪出有這樣的事情我希望你們該剔除的就是要剔除該追繳要追繳因為這個是國家的錢好嗎不容是個人去濫用之後又不追繳還要用公務的基金然後來墊付這個全民也不會同意的好你先請回接下來我要問這個勞動部部長\n\n10:29.861 --> 10:48.532\n部長頭號的問題我問你許民村開演唱會的這三百多萬該不該剔除追繳追究個人責任剔除與否這當然是審計的我已經要求他們應該要剔除那站在勞動部的立場呢你這一筆錢你的救援基金就這樣子被濫用掉了嗎要不要去追繳我們從審計這邊得到的是修正檢列\n\n10:54.758 --> 11:14.875\n我在問你的立場部長不要閃躲你在外面去講話的時候演講的時候慷慨激昂民主側翼來到委員會的時候要你表態的時候你都支支吾吾我沒有閃躲我從頭到尾我們的態度就是尊重審計部的判定從一開始\n\n11:17.237 --> 11:39.397\n從一開始這一份大家現在引用的是審計部的報告來的我們從頭一開始從12月到現在的態度都是我們會尊重審計部的判定尊重審計部的判定審計部說要剔除追繳你就會依法辦理對不對如果審計部他判定剔除的話當然在法律上面我們就會有責任要去追繳\n\n11:40.437 --> 12:05.368\n對你會依法辦理這是法律的就變成是法律對於機關的要求了另外接下來我要問你高關稅底下的這個衝擊高關稅這個是現在勞工非常擔心的一個問題因為它衝擊的範圍可能可以到2008年的金融海嘯那麼的大但是我看到現在勞動部裡面端出來的措施我只看到一項\n\n12:06.707 --> 12:33.573\n而且這一項裡面你的雇用安定措施裡面呢你只有補助橡膠製造機械設備其他運輸工具還有零件製造業為什麼是設定這幾個行業你們對外公告的只有這一些你們要去補貼長達6個月減班休息勞工的薪資差了50%跟文說明我們的相關的措施不是只有這一項而已當然不是只有這一項那還有什麼你可以告訴大家來\n\n12:35.134 --> 12:58.671\n第一個當然現在包括如果有發生減班休息的話我們其實給減班休息有相關的充電債出發那我們現在也在調整跟檢討包括這些相關的適用的範圍包括適用的對象包括是不是要做相關的加碼那所以現在當然不是只有這個雇用安定措施的這一項你們對外講的就是這一項我們對外講並不是只講這一項\n\n13:01.226 --> 13:29.989\n那還有什麼呢?有補助新年就業計畫嗎?我也沒看到啊有補助公部門擴大金融計畫嗎?有2019新冠疫情嗎?2019新冠疫情所有的措施你們現在通通都有跟王老師說明其實我們現在相關的措施包括對青年的包括對失業勞工包括對可能會減班休息的我們計畫都列出來那我們現在是希望要再把它規劃一個因應關稅的版本\n\n13:31.035 --> 13:46.617\n因為比方說像這個新冠疫情的時候主要針對的是服務業服務業的勞工可是這一次可能因關稅不只過大他的業別也不同他這次可能是製造業是出口業跟過去是服務業的狀況不同\n\n13:47.478 --> 14:04.231\n所以我們要規劃一個因應關稅的版本新冠疫情的時候是556億的救安基金加150億的就業保險基金總共是706億你們現在你說你的高關稅衝擊你會擴大比新冠疫情你的措施還要多結果你現在是150億那請問你是怎麼做的\n\n14:07.595 --> 14:32.280\n我跟委員說明我們目前現在是先框150億但如果還需要還要再擴大的話目前以救安基金跟救阿基金所以你剛剛講的就是假的啊沒有假的為什麼是假的150億為什麼可以做到這個新冠疫情的706億的事情而且還比它多這就是假的啊跟委員說明虛的其實這都要看產業實質衝擊的狀況\n\n14:34.921 --> 14:49.285\n所以表示你們現在還沒有準備好嗎你說有其實都是只是一個方向而已不是只是方向現在這些措施我們要規劃一個因應我們現在正在規劃因應關稅的版本所以還沒有定稿嗎還沒有定案嗎\n\n14:51.482 --> 15:01.869\n因為現在的關稅的衝擊我們還要看實際的狀況所以我跟瑋瑜說這包括可能還會有地區別的不同所以還沒有具體方案出來不是沒有具體方案有但是這裡面的情境跟參數我們其實現在還在看現在實質發生的狀況來做要因地制宜那我就問你就是這一次因應2025高關稅的衝擊你的方案會完全比照2019新冠疫情有的一個都不會少而且還會再加碼是這樣子嗎\n\n15:22.383 --> 15:45.528\n不只是不會要能夠用得上的因為當時真的有些情境是不同的比方說當時很多是服務業現在有很多是製造業所以當我們要來協助製造業可能他會受影響的失業勞工他要去希望雇主擴大去聘用他的時候這也會要看當地因為你很難叫一個台南的勞工他到台北\n\n15:45.868 --> 15:50.412\n我知道還要去因地制宜所以勞工會想要知道你現在因應高關稅衝擊的這個補助的整個勞動部的規模會不會比照至少會有2019新冠疫情這些所有的措施一個都不會多不會少措施都在我們現在是正在規劃經濟跟因應關稅的版本的方案甚至如果需要的話我們還會再加碼\n\n16:14.491 --> 16:41.968\n所以都會有我可以這樣講嗎這些措施都在都有這些措施都有這些措施都在那我們現在是要再做因地制宜包括因接下來的情境的這個更精準的設定那甚至需要的話包括擴大對象跟加碼這都是現在正在進行規劃如果你150億不夠的話你下一個階段你的錢要從哪裡來目前確實包括救保跟救安基目前還有一些餘裕\n\n16:43.257 --> 17:08.076\n所以還是從救安基金來嗎救安跟救保對那你的救安基金那7000萬的追繳就更重要了我提醒你因為你那邊虧掉了7000多萬你現在是400多億你比之前的新冠疫情的你的556億還要少所以7000萬大家都希望部長你在這個位置上面要幫老百姓做一些事情要去把它追繳回來讓救安基金更充實\n\n17:08.897 --> 17:20.910\n跟委員說明要跟個人的追究我想我們是行政部門我們也需要有法律上面的依據當然但是你行政部門的職權也不要晾在一邊不會就是不想去做不會當然不會好謝謝謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.189,"end":5.812,"text":"王玉明委員質詢邱政經委員質詢完後我們休息十分鐘好 謝謝主席我要先請我們審計部的副審計長李順寶副審計長王委員好"},{"start":25.443,"end":43.079,"text":"副審計長你好我想就教你我們審計法第21條的規定是什麼審計法第21條主要規定說審計機關對於各機關違背預算或有關法令的不當支出得踢除追繳制"},{"start":44.4,"end":46.162,"text":"得剔除追繳資嘛那請問你們根據審計法第21條你的去認定他的違法需不需要經過司法機關還是審計部就可以進行認定"},{"start":59.069,"end":79.121,"text":"要看個別的個案的案情像有些案情他其實他涉及刑事責任刑事責任就包括從檢調的偵查處理然後最後提起公訴然後進入法院的審理因為那個相關的案情會影響最後"},{"start":80.923,"end":94.833,"text":"財務責任如果他有涉及財務責任他的範圍跟金額另外一部分是監察院他如果已經立案調查他那個調查結果也會影響我們對相關剔除金額的判定"},{"start":95.333,"end":117.245,"text":"有沒有你進行認定的 有審計部進行認定的過去你在監督中央跟地方 有嘛 對不對那另外跟委員特別報告就是說我們21條訂的這個條文的背景當初是在民國60 我印象中是60年的時候訂的當時因為對個別公務人員他的"},{"start":118.906,"end":136.161,"text":"行政救濟跟保障的相關法制比較不健全那當時沒有相關的法制但是現在我們如果直接採剔除去處理其實在實務上會有很多困難因為剔除去處理的話根據審計法78條規定是要限期追繳也就是說我們苛責機關因為我們是追繳對象是要機關去追繳限期是三個月"},{"start":145.388,"end":169.991,"text":"然後機關要做出行政處分那現在的法治這個行政處分到個人到公務人員身上他會尋各種救濟程序包括保訓會包括訴願然後行政法院訴訟那個就會拖很長實際上就會有這個問題所以你們就變成不敢使用嗎不敢使用剔除嗎"},{"start":170.832,"end":187.702,"text":"還是很多案情非常單純好 那我就要直接問你了針對這一次整個救安基金違法使用這個七千多萬你們一開始在認定上面是用途規定衛福也就是違反了它原來的使用規定對不對"},{"start":189.335,"end":202.59,"text":"曾經用過這個文字不是曾經你們一直到昨天下午的2點55分送出來的4月8號2點55分送出來的報告其實都還是用途未符"},{"start":203.325,"end":217.856,"text":"一直都是這樣子但是在4點37分的時候我們收到的報告突然就改成了關聯性不高你們這個是不是就是關關相護想要去大事化小 避重就輕是要幫勞動部解套"},{"start":220.618,"end":247.154,"text":"因為如果是用途未符的話那就是要依據你審計法第21條它已經違反了法令所以依法你們應該是要剔除應該是要追繳但是你們為什麼過去都是用這個現在突然變成關聯性不高關聯性不高有沒有違法呢有沒有違法使用呢用途未符是不是就是違反法令規定"},{"start":249.132,"end":269.758,"text":"你知不知道這個名稱被改變了你們審計部有報告誰下令的沒有誰下令是我們在短短的時間改變喔這怎麼可能沒有人下令呢沒有這個是因為我們誰改的嘛你改的沒有我們是重新再核對包括說勞動部要求你改的沒有跟委員報告沒有這是我們自己來做處理的"},{"start":270.498,"end":289.877,"text":"那你們就是自己審計部的職權 你們自己治降你們的職權啊該引用的沒引用 該剔除的不剔除然後幫勞動部開脫 用一個關聯性不高所以關聯性不高 他就不用剔除 也不用追繳所以就可以重新再去由公務預算裡面來編列 是不是這樣子"},{"start":290.878,"end":306.585,"text":"不是 那個跟委員報告 其實我們修正那為什麼要改變嘛 你告訴我為什麼用途不符就是用途不符就是沒有按照規定嘛那你為什麼要改變成關聯性不高嘛理由何在嘛 你講一個理由出來是 跟委員報告就是我們在給"},{"start":308.305,"end":334.235,"text":"勞動部的審核通知還有歷次勞動部深入內容即使來來來來反反之相關的文字其實這兩個文字都有用到包括用途不符因為你們一直都是用用途規定未符其實你們一開始的措辭還蠻強烈的而且你們還說要追繳要剔除追繳你們回去掉錄影帶在去年底的時候"},{"start":334.795,"end":359.016,"text":"你們公開在院會接受答詢的時候你們是說要剔除而且要追究相關人員的責任結果到今天委員會正式專案要去討論的時候你們說了你們變成是關聯性不高也沒有剔除也沒有追究相關的用詞在整篇通篇的報告裡面通通都消失了被消失"},{"start":360.117,"end":367.519,"text":"你們審計部 你們本來就應該要擔負起你們應有的職權為什麼現在變成是輕輕放下 關關相護呢委員 這個違法的事證這麼的明確連謝英勇本人都已經承認犯罪包含在這七千萬裡面結果你們竟然用一個關聯性不高 當事人都承認違法你用一個關聯性不高來包裹這七千多萬 這合理嗎 這對嗎"},{"start":387.059,"end":404.844,"text":"跟委員報告就是剛剛個案涉及刑責部分如果以後確定判決我還要跟你追究另外一個另外一個就是演唱會的支出這一筆你們為什麼沒有追究呢這個涉案的事情這麼的明顯完全違反使用規定你這個也要用關聯性不高這是徹徹底底的違法"},{"start":411.461,"end":418.829,"text":"辦個人演唱會跟救安基金的使用這個在你們審計部的眼中是關聯性不高而已嗎這不是違法不當使用嗎為什麼不引用你的審計法第21條去究責 去剔除你連這一筆你都不敢剔除你說其他它有一些文宣品"},{"start":431.544,"end":447.45,"text":"加減跟勞動部的業務有關請問這一筆呢這花的都是這個整個都在做演唱會的錢啊你審計部為什麼這一筆不敢追究這一筆為什麼不敢挑出來就直接用剔除用追繳去追究個人責任"},{"start":448.57,"end":458.576,"text":"而且你這一筆你有送司法嗎?有送檢調嗎?有送監察院嗎?根本不知道 這個有送監察院這個有送監察院?那既然都送監察院 你在你這個審計的權責裡面為什麼這一筆你不敢主動去剔除?這個怎麼會只是關聯性不高呢?"},{"start":467.287,"end":487.396,"text":"根據這個違法這麼的明確影帶製作影像拍攝這些東西跟救安基金的使用用途跟勞工的就業這個會有在你們的審計的看法裡面這個會有關聯嗎這完全不關聯吧所以你的行政權你的審計權現在等於是"},{"start":489.946,"end":509.291,"text":"放著不敢用嘛如果按照你剛剛的描述就是你要等監察院認定的你要等這個檢調認定的但是我看過你們對於地方政府的剔除啊有一些你們說剔除就剔除啊那我再看司法機關跟監察院的沒有啊那你這是雙標欸怎麼會聽到這件事情就轉彎呢不會不會轉彎不會轉彎要不要剔除涉及司法部分最後確定判決我們還是會追究財務責任"},{"start":520.54,"end":535.638,"text":"你這一個部分你都不敢從你審計的角度就是去追究責任你們這個就是輕輕放下嘛你沒有上面的壓力嗎有沒有人來告訴你這件事情該怎麼辦怎麼會一開始你們的態度那麼強硬到現在整個都縮回去了"},{"start":536.767,"end":551.442,"text":"我們審計部始終如一啦從頭到尾包括你沒有始終如一連報告都去偷偷修改那個字眼了什麼關聯性不高你還你這個審計部我希望你審計部啊各部會有各部會有權責做錯的事情該糾正的該是你審計部的該去剔除的該去追繳的這是你的責任啦是是"},{"start":557.688,"end":573.1,"text":"你們要硬起來 這個368.7萬我要求審計部你們要去剔除跟追繳你們回去好好再審議一次啊這個部分為什麼連動都不敢動我覺得這有問題啊不要讓人家覺得你想要護航這個前部長啊我也不希望這後面有人下令啊去做這樣的事情啊因為追繳一定會追繳到許明春個人的責任啊這是他做的全責啊那為什麼謝義勇就是許明春沒有事"},{"start":586.681,"end":590.864,"text":"對 但你沒有引用你的21條去剔除跟追繳嘛我現在在講的是這個嘛 你不敢動用你的審計權嘛這個就是問題啊這個部分我希望這個副審議長你回去跟審計長報告 今天在委員會裡面"},{"start":602.473,"end":608.396,"text":"我就是要揪出有這樣的事情我希望你們該剔除的就是要剔除 該追繳要追繳因為這個是國家的錢好嗎不容是個人去濫用之後又不追繳還要用公務的基金然後來墊付這個全民也不會同意的好你先請回接下來我要問這個勞動部部長"},{"start":629.861,"end":648.532,"text":"部長頭號的問題我問你許民村開演唱會的這三百多萬該不該剔除追繳追究個人責任剔除與否這當然是審計的我已經要求他們應該要剔除那站在勞動部的立場呢你這一筆錢你的救援基金就這樣子被濫用掉了嗎要不要去追繳我們從審計這邊得到的是修正檢列"},{"start":654.758,"end":674.875,"text":"我在問你的立場 部長 不要閃躲你在外面去講話的時候 演講的時候 慷慨激昂 民主側翼來到委員會的時候 要你表態的時候 你都支支吾吾我沒有閃躲 我從頭到尾我們的態度就是尊重審計部的判定從一開始"},{"start":677.237,"end":699.397,"text":"從一開始這一份大家現在引用的是審計部的報告來的我們從頭一開始從12月到現在的態度都是我們會尊重審計部的判定尊重審計部的判定審計部說要剔除追繳你就會依法辦理對不對如果審計部他判定剔除的話當然在法律上面我們就會有責任要去追繳"},{"start":700.437,"end":725.368,"text":"對 你會依法辦理這是法律的 就變成是法律對於機關的要求了另外 接下來我要問你高關稅底下的這個衝擊高關稅這個是現在勞工非常擔心的一個問題因為它衝擊的範圍可能可以到2008年的金融海嘯那麼的大但是我看到現在勞動部裡面端出來的措施我只看到一項"},{"start":726.707,"end":753.573,"text":"而且這一項裡面你的雇用安定措施裡面呢你只有補助橡膠製造機械設備其他運輸工具還有零件製造業為什麼是設定這幾個行業你們對外公告的只有這一些你們要去補貼長達6個月減班休息勞工的薪資差了50%跟文說明我們的相關的措施不是只有這一項而已當然不是只有這一項那還有什麼你可以告訴大家來"},{"start":755.134,"end":778.671,"text":"第一個當然現在包括如果有發生減班休息的話我們其實給減班休息有相關的充電債出發那我們現在也在調整跟檢討包括這些相關的適用的範圍包括適用的對象包括是不是要做相關的加碼那所以現在當然不是只有這個雇用安定措施的這一項你們對外講的就是這一項我們對外講並不是只講這一項"},{"start":781.226,"end":809.989,"text":"那還有什麼呢?有補助新年就業計畫嗎?我也沒看到啊有補助公部門擴大金融計畫嗎?有2019新冠疫情嗎?2019新冠疫情所有的措施你們現在通通都有跟王老師說明其實我們現在相關的措施包括對青年的包括對失業勞工包括對可能會減班休息的我們計畫都列出來那我們現在是希望要再把它規劃一個因應關稅的版本"},{"start":811.035,"end":826.617,"text":"因為比方說像這個新冠疫情的時候主要針對的是服務業服務業的勞工可是這一次可能因關稅不只過大他的業別也不同他這次可能是製造業是出口業跟過去是服務業的狀況不同"},{"start":827.478,"end":844.231,"text":"所以我們要規劃一個因應關稅的版本新冠疫情的時候是556億的救安基金加150億的就業保險基金總共是706億你們現在你說你的高關稅衝擊你會擴大比新冠疫情你的措施還要多結果你現在是150億那請問你是怎麼做的"},{"start":847.595,"end":872.28,"text":"我跟委員說明我們目前現在是先框150億但如果還需要還要再擴大的話目前以救安基金跟救阿基金所以你剛剛講的就是假的啊沒有假的為什麼是假的150億為什麼可以做到這個新冠疫情的706億的事情而且還比它多這就是假的啊跟委員說明虛的其實這都要看產業實質衝擊的狀況"},{"start":874.921,"end":889.285,"text":"所以表示你們現在還沒有準備好嗎你說有 其實都是只是一個方向而已不是只是方向 現在這些措施我們要規劃一個因應我們現在正在規劃因應關稅的版本所以還沒有定稿嗎 還沒有定案嗎"},{"start":891.482,"end":901.869,"text":"因為現在的關稅的衝擊我們還要看實際的狀況所以我跟瑋瑜說這包括可能還會有地區別的不同所以還沒有具體方案出來不是沒有具體方案有但是這裡面的情境跟參數我們其實現在還在看現在實質發生的狀況來做要因地制宜那我就問你就是這一次因應2025高關稅的衝擊你的方案會完全比照2019新冠疫情有的一個都不會少而且還會再加碼是這樣子嗎"},{"start":922.383,"end":945.528,"text":"不只是不會要能夠用得上的因為當時真的有些情境是不同的比方說當時很多是服務業現在有很多是製造業所以當我們要來協助製造業可能他會受影響的失業勞工他要去希望雇主擴大去聘用他的時候這也會要看當地因為你很難叫一個台南的勞工他到台北"},{"start":945.868,"end":950.412,"text":"我知道 還要去因地制宜所以勞工會想要知道你現在因應高關稅衝擊的這個補助的整個勞動部的規模會不會比照至少會有2019新冠疫情這些所有的措施一個都不會多不會少措施都在我們現在是正在規劃經濟跟因應關稅的版本的方案甚至如果需要的話我們還會再加碼"},{"start":974.491,"end":1001.968,"text":"所以都會有我可以這樣講嗎這些措施都在都有這些措施都有這些措施都在那我們現在是要再做因地制宜包括因接下來的情境的這個更精準的設定那甚至需要的話包括擴大對象跟加碼這都是現在正在進行規劃如果你150億不夠的話你下一個階段你的錢要從哪裡來目前確實包括救保跟救安基目前還有一些餘裕"},{"start":1003.257,"end":1028.076,"text":"所以還是從救安基金來嗎 救安跟救保對 那你的救安基金 那7000萬的追繳就更重要了我提醒你 因為你那邊虧掉了7000多萬 你現在是400多億你比之前的新冠疫情的你的556億還要少所以7000萬 大家都希望 部長 你在這個位置上面要幫老百姓做一些事情要去把它追繳回來 讓救安基金更充實"},{"start":1028.897,"end":1040.91,"text":"跟委員說明要跟個人的追究我想我們是行政部門我們也需要有法律上面的依據當然但是你行政部門的職權也不要晾在一邊不會就是不想去做不會當然不會好謝謝謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":371,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時17分）謝謝主席，我要先請審計部的李順保副審計長。"],["李副審計長順保：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：副審計長，你好。我想就教你，審計法第二十一條的規定是什麼？"],["李副審計長順保：審計法第二十一條主要規定審計機關對於各機關違背預算或有關法令的不當支出，得剔除追繳之。"],["王委員育敏：得剔除追繳之嘛！"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["王委員育敏：請問你們根據審計法第二十一條去認定它違法，需不需要經過司法機關，還是審計部就可以進行認定？"],["李副審計長順保：要看個別個案的案情，像有些案情涉及刑事責任，刑事責任就包括從檢調的偵查處理，最後提起公訴，然後進入法院的審理。因為如果它有涉及財務責任，相關的案情會影響最後財務責任的範圍跟金額；另外一部分是監察院如果已經立案調查，那個調查結果也會影響我們對相關剔除金額的判定。"],["王委員育敏：過去你在監督中央跟地方時，有沒有由審計部進行認定的？"],["李副審計長順保：有。"],["王委員育敏：有嘛！"],["李副審計長順保：另外，跟委員特別報告定審計法第二十一條這個條文的背景，當初是在民國60年的時候定的，當時因為對個別公務人員的行政救濟跟保障的相關法制比較不健全，當時沒有相關的法制，但是現在我們如果直接採剔除去處理，其實在實務上會有很多困難，因為剔除去處理的話，根據審計法第七十八條規定是要限期追繳，也就是說，我們課責機關，因為我們的追繳對象是要機關去追繳，限期是三個月，機關要作出行政處分，現在的法制，這個行政處分到個人、到公務人員身上，他會循各種救濟程序，包括保訓會，包括訴願、行政法院訴訟，那就會拖很長，實際上就會有這個問題……"],["王委員育敏：所以你們就變成不敢使用剔除嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：不是不敢使用，很多案情非常單純，我們還是會使用。"],["王委員育敏：好，那我就要直接問你了，針對這一次整個就安基金違法使用七千多萬，你們一開始在認定上面是用途規定未符，也就是違反了原來的使用規定，對不對？"],["李副審計長順保：曾經用過這個文字。"],["王委員育敏：不是曾經，你們一直到昨天4月8號下午2點55分送出來的報告其實都還是「用途未符」，一直都是這樣子，但是在4點37分的時候，我們收到的報告突然就改成了「關聯性不高」，你們這是不是就是官官相護，想要大事化小、避重就輕，是要幫勞動部解套？因為如果是用途未符的話，就是依據審計法第二十一條，他已經違反法令，所以依法你們應該是要剔除、應該是要追繳，你們過去都是用這個，為什麼現在突然變成關聯性不高？關聯性不高有沒有違法呢？有沒有違法使用呢？用途未符是不是就是違反法令規定？知不知道這個名稱被改變了？你們審計部的報告是誰下令的？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有，沒有誰下令，是我們剛剛……"],["王委員育敏：在短短的時間改變喔！這怎麼可能沒有人下令呢？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有，這個是因為我們在……"],["王委員育敏：誰改的嘛？你改的？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有，我們是重新再核對，包括說我們跟……"],["王委員育敏：勞動部要求你改的？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有、沒有、沒有，跟委員報告，沒有，這是我們自己來做處理的。"],["王委員育敏：那你們就是自己自降審計部的職權啊，該引用的沒引用，該剔除的不剔除，然後幫勞動部開脫，用一個關聯性不高，所以關聯性不高，他就不用剔除也不用追繳，所以就可以重新再由公務預算裡面來編列，是不是這樣子？"],["李副審計長順保：不是，跟委員報告，其實我們修正……"],["王委員育敏：那為什麼要改變嘛，你告訴我，用途不符就是用途不符，就是沒有按照規定，你為什麼要改變成關聯性不高嘛？理由何在，你講一個理由出來。"],["李副審計長順保：是，跟委員報告，就是我們在給勞動部的審核通知還有歷次勞動部的聲復內容，其實來來返返相關的文字，這兩個文字都有用到啦，包括用途不符，因為……"],["王委員育敏：你們一直都是用用途規定未符喔，其實你們一開始的措辭還蠻強烈的，而且你們還說要剔除追繳喔，你們回去調錄影帶，去年底你們公開在院會接受答詢的時候是說要剔除而且要追繳，並且要追究相關人員的責任，結果到今天委員會正式要專案討論的時候，你們縮了，你們變成是關聯性不高，也沒有剔除、也沒有追繳相關的用詞，在整篇通篇的報告裡面通通都消失了，被消失！你們審計部本來就應該要擔負起你們應有的職權，為什麼現在變成是輕輕放下、官官相護呢？"],["李副審計長順保：報告委員，以這個……"],["王委員育敏：違法的事證這麼地明確，連謝宜容本人都已經承認犯罪，包含在這7,000萬裡面，結果你們竟然用一個關聯性不高，當事人都承認違法，你用一個關聯性不高來包裹這七千多萬，這合理嗎？這對嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，就是個案涉及刑責部分，如果以後確定判決……"],["王委員育敏：我還要跟你追究另外一個，就是演唱會的支出，這一筆你們為什麼沒有追究呢？這個涉案的事情這麼地明顯，完全違反使用規定，你這個也要用關聯性不高，這是澈澈底底的違法，辦個人演唱會跟就安基金的使用，這個在你們審計部的眼中是關聯性不高而已嗎？這不是違法不當使用嗎？為什麼不引用審計法第二十一條去究責、去剔除，連這一筆你都不敢剔除，你說其他有一些文宣品加減跟勞動部的業務有關，請問這一筆呢？這整個花的都是在做演唱會的錢啊，為什麼這一筆審計部不敢追究？這一筆為什麼不敢挑出來就直接用剔除、用追繳去追究個人責任？而且這一筆你有送司法嗎？有送檢調嗎？有送監察院嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，這個有送監察院。"],["王委員育敏：這個有送監察院？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["王委員育敏：既然都送監察院了，在你們審計的權責裡面，為什麼這一筆你不敢主動去剔除？"],["李副審計長順保：這個我們會等……"],["王委員育敏：這個怎麼會只是關聯性不高呢？"],["李副審計長順保：這個部分……"],["王委員育敏：違法這麼地明確，影帶製作、影像拍攝，這些東西跟就安基金的使用用途、跟勞工的就業，在你們審計的看法裡面，這會有關聯嗎？這完全不關聯吧！所以你的行政權、你的審計權現在等於是放著不敢用嘛，如果按照你剛剛的描述，就是你要等監察院認定，你要等檢調認定，但是我看過你們對於地方政府的剔除，有一些你們說剔除就剔除啊，哪有在看司法機關跟監察院的，沒有啊！那你這是雙標耶！"],["李副審計長順保：我們……"],["王委員育敏：怎麼會遇到這件事情就轉彎呢？"],["李副審計長順保：不會，不會轉彎。"],["王委員育敏：不會轉彎，要不要剔除？"],["李副審計長順保：涉及司法的部分，最後確定判決我們還是會追究財務責任。"],["王委員育敏：這個部分你都不敢從你審計的角度去追究責任，你們就是輕輕放下嘛，你沒有上面的壓力嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：報告委員，沒有。"],["王委員育敏：有沒有人來告訴你這件事情該怎麼辦？怎麼會一開始你們的態度那麼強硬，到現在整個都縮回去了？"],["李副審計長順保：我們審計部始終如一啦，從頭到尾，包括……"],["王委員育敏：你沒有始終如一，連報告都偷偷修改那個字眼了，什麼關聯性不高，你們審計部……我希望審計部，各部會有各部會的權責，做錯事情，該糾正的、該是你審計部的、該去剔除的、該去追繳的，這是你的責任啊！"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["王委員育敏：你們要硬起來，這個368.7萬我要求審計部要去剔除跟追繳，你們回去好好再審議一次，這個部分為什麼連動都不敢動，我覺得這有問題啊，不要讓人家覺得你想要護航前部長，我也不希望後面有人下令去做這樣的事情，因為追繳一定會追繳到許銘春個人的責任，這個是他的權責，為什麼謝宜容有事，許銘春沒有事？"],["李副審計長順保：報告委員，這個部分我們都已經修正決算了。"],["王委員育敏：但你沒有引用審計法第二十一條去剔除跟追繳嘛，我現在在講的是這個嘛，你不敢動用你的審計權嘛，這就是問題啊！這個部分我希望副審計長回去好好跟你們審計長報告，今天在委員會裡面，我就是要揪出有這樣的事情，我希望你們該剔除的就是要剔除，該追繳的要追繳，因為這是國家的錢，好嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["王委員育敏：不容個人去濫用之後又不追繳，還要用公務基金來墊付，這個全民也不會同意的。好，你先請回。"],["李副審計長順保：好，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：接下來我要問勞動部部長，部長，同樣的問題我問你，許銘春開演唱會的這三百多萬該不該剔除、追繳，追究個人責任？"],["洪部長申翰：剔除與否，這當然是審計的……"],["王委員育敏：我已經要求他們應該要剔除，站在勞動部的立場呢？這一筆錢，你的就安基金就這樣被濫用掉了嗎？要不要去追繳？"],["洪部長申翰：我們從審計這邊得到的是修正減列。"],["王委員育敏：我在問你的立場，部長，不要閃躲……"],["洪部長申翰：我沒有閃……"],["王委員育敏：你在外面講話的時候、演講的時候慷慨激昂、民主側翼，來到委員會的時候、要你表態的時候，你都支支吾吾。"],["洪部長申翰：王委員，我沒有閃躲，我從頭到尾……"],["王委員育敏：該不該追繳？一句話。"],["洪部長申翰：我們的態度就是尊重審計部的判定，從一開始……"],["王委員育敏：你勞動部沒有自己的態度啊。"],["洪部長申翰：大家現在引用的是從審計部的報告來的，我們從一開始、從12月到現在的態度都是我們會尊重審計部的判定、遵照審計部的判定。"],["王委員育敏：好，如果審計部說要剔除追繳，你就會依法辦理，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：如果審計部判定剔除的話，當然在法律上面我們就會有責任要去追繳。"],["王委員育敏：對，你會依法辦理？"],["洪部長申翰：這就變成是法律對於機關的要求了。"],["王委員育敏：好，我要的是你這句話。","另外，接下來我要問你高關稅底下的衝擊，高關稅是現在勞工非常擔心的問題，因為它衝擊的範圍可能會像是2008年的金融海嘯那麼大，但是現在勞動部端出來的措施，我只看到一項，而且這一項裡面，你們的僱用安定措施裡面只有補助橡膠製造、機械設備、其他運輸工具還有零件製造業，為什麼是設定這幾個行業？你們對外公告的只有這一些你們要去補貼長達6個月減班休息勞工的薪資差額50%。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們的相關的措施，不是只有這一項而已，當然不是。"],["王委員育敏：還有什麼，你可不可以告訴大家？來。"],["洪部長申翰：第一個當然現在包括，如果有發生減班休息，我們其實給減班休息有相關的充電再出發，我們現在也在調整跟檢討，包括這些相關的適用範圍、包括適用的對象，包括是不是要做相關的加碼。所以現在當然不是只有僱用安定措施的這一項。"],["王委員育敏：你們對外講的就是這一項。"],["洪部長申翰：我們對外講並不是只講這一項。"],["王委員育敏：還有什麼呢？"],["洪部長申翰：剛剛說的包括……"],["王委員育敏：你有補助青年就業計畫嗎？我也沒看到啊。"],["洪部長申翰：有。"],["王委員育敏：有補助公部門擴大進用計畫嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：有。我們其實在……"],["王委員育敏：有比照新冠疫情嗎？2019年新冠疫情所有的措施你們現在通通都有？"],["洪部長申翰：跟王委員說明，其實我們現在相關的措施，包括對青年的、包括對失業勞工、包括對可能會減班休息的，我們計畫都列出來，我們現在是希望要再規劃一個因應關稅的版本。因為比方新冠疫情的時候，主要針對的是服務業的勞工，可是這一次可能因應關稅……"],["王委員育敏：更擴大。"],["洪部長申翰：不只是擴大，他的業別也不同。這次可能是製造業、是出口業，跟過去是服務業的狀況不同，所以我們要規劃一個因應關稅的版本。"],["王委員育敏：新冠疫情的時候是556億的就安基金，加150億的就業保險基金，總共是706億。現在你說高關稅衝擊你會擴大，比新冠疫情的措施還要多，結果現在是150億，請問你是怎麼做的？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，我們目前現在是先匡150億，但如果還需要再擴大，目前以就安基金跟就保基金……"],["王委員育敏：所以你剛剛講的就是假的啊！"],["洪部長申翰：沒有假的，為什麼是假的？"],["王委員育敏：150億為什麼可以做到新冠疫情的706億的事情，而且還比他多，這就是假的。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明……"],["王委員育敏：虛的。"],["洪部長申翰：其實這都要看產業實質衝擊的狀況。"],["王委員育敏：所以表示你們現在還沒有準備好嘛！你說有，其實都只是一個方向而已……"],["洪部長申翰：不是只是方向……"],["王委員育敏：你沒有具體的措施。"],["洪部長申翰：現在這些措施我們正在規劃因應關稅的版本，這都是現在進行式。"],["王委員育敏：所以還沒有定案嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：因為現在關稅的衝擊我們還要看實際的狀況，所以我跟委員說這包括可能還會有地區別的不同……"],["王委員育敏：所以還沒有具體方案出來，你現在還在研擬。"],["洪部長申翰：不是沒有具體方案，有！但是這裡面的情境跟參數，我們其實現在還在看現在實質發生的狀況來做，要因地制宜的設定。"],["王委員育敏：我就問你，這一次因應2025年高關稅的衝擊，你的方案會完全比照2019年新冠疫情，有的一個都不會少，而且還會再加碼，是這樣子嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：不只是不會，還要能夠用得上的，因為當時真的有些情境是不同的，比方說，當時很多是服務業，現在有很多是製造業。所以當我們要來協助製造業，可能會受影響的是失業勞工，希望雇主擴大去聘用他的時候，這也需要看當地，因為你很難叫一個臺南的勞工到臺北，所以還要去因地制宜……"],["王委員育敏：我知道。現在部長，你要安勞工的心，所以勞工會想要知道現在勞動部因應高關稅衝擊的補助規模，會不會至少比照2019年新冠疫情這些所有的措施，一個都不會少？只會多不會少。"],["洪部長申翰：措施都在。我們現在是正在規劃、精進跟因應關稅的版本方案。"],["王委員育敏：所以都會有，我可以這樣講嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：甚至如果需要的話，我們還會再加碼。"],["王委員育敏：所以都會有，我可以這樣講嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：對，這些措施都在、都有，這些措施都在、這些措施都在，我們現在是要再做因地制宜，包括因應接下來情境的更精準設定，甚至需要的話，包括擴大對象跟加碼，這都是現在正在進行規劃的事情。"],["王委員育敏：好，那我就問你，如果你150億不夠的話，你下一個階段的錢要從哪裡來？"],["洪部長申翰：目前確實包括就保跟就安基金目前還有一些餘裕。"],["王委員育敏：所以還是從就安基金來嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：就安跟就保。"],["王委員育敏：對，那你的就安基金那七千多萬的追繳就更重要了，我提醒你，因為你那邊虧掉了七千多萬，你現在是四百多億，比之前的新冠疫情的556億還要少，這七千多萬……大家都希望部長在這個位置上面要幫老百姓做一些事情，當然要去把它追繳回來讓就安基金更充實。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，要跟個人的追繳，像我們是行政部門，我們也需要有法律上面的依據。"],["王委員育敏：當然。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["王委員育敏：但是你行政部門的職權也不要晾在一邊……"],["洪部長申翰：不會。"],["王委員育敏：就是不想去做。"],["洪部長申翰：不會，當然不會。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝部長。","我們更正一下，洪孟楷委員質詢完，我們休息10分鐘，要上洗手間的自行前往。","接續我們請邱鎮軍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","盧縣一","洪孟楷","王正旭","黃秀芳","陳瑩","劉建國","廖先翔","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱若華","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00005"}}}