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00:00:17,420\n你好我們請局長好謝謝主席蔡委員早局長早局長您就任到現在多久了兩年多\n\n2\n00:00:19,349 --> 00:00:45,146\n局長我們就不講這兩年我們講這一年從現在往前12個月到現在我們跟國家相關的共諜案件受社會矚目的案件大概有18個案件每個月都有一個重大案件所謂重大案件就是不管是我們的福建黨不管是我們的陸海空不管是我們的軍警線甚至通常情報部門都有相關的泄密的狀況\n\n3\n00:00:46,499 --> 00:01:05,415\n那這個狀況我一直想請教就是說局長已經兩年多了嘛當然兩年多了有沒有什麼精進的方法因為如果說第一年的話我們當然是那是過去的累積那我們沒辦法去做一些回應但是當已經就此兩年多的話我可能就要具體來請教局長你們的具體的方案是什麼\n\n4\n00:01:06,583 --> 00:01:33,946\n對這部分剛剛也很多委員在關切那我們在偵辦這些共諜案來講我們事實上不只是我們國安情報團隊我們跟調查機關跟檢方那也都建立起非常密切的一個聯繫希望能夠針對共諜案的法律要件的建構能夠讓它成案率比較高那另外我們也跟院方包括法官門也跟法官學院來針對共諜案的一些樣態來跟他們上課所以我們希望做的是情報機關\n\n5\n00:01:35,007 --> 00:01:54,726\n調查機關檢查機關跟審理機關對於共諜案在審理上能夠比較有一致的看法謝謝局長你的說法非常好就是說我們要這個檢討但我現在講的是責任的政治總統府有憲兵跟警察姓名的狀況這就總統維安的部分請問這個安全查核是由國安局負責的嗎\n\n6\n00:01:56,191 --> 00:02:14,306\n這個部分當然國安局責無旁貸因為我們國安局在負責總統維安協情的單位加起來可能包括的有總統府包括我們的特勤中心包括有國防部的警衛大隊包括各縣市警察局的警察同仁還有縣指部的同仁都在裡面加起來可能有幾十萬人\n\n7\n00:02:15,006 --> 00:02:40,229\n那在安全查核上我們當然會比較優先重要的部分是比較會涉及到一些比較機密日常活動的部分那來加強相關的查核那也跟委員說明我知道委員的辦公室也在關切這個問題我們也跟委員的辦公室有報告那我們的包括我們的移測的頻次已經越來越增加那總統府的憲兵指揮部的2111的安全查核是由哪一個單位負責\n\n8\n00:02:41,530 --> 00:02:55,838\n應該縣指部因為指揮官也在嘛那指揮官也在他們有一套查核的機制那我們這邊也會來協助有必要來做一些督導我們會來積極的來推辦保六總隊的第一警官大隊的安全查核是由哪一個單位來負責\n\n9\n00:02:56,698 --> 00:03:20,956\n各單位都有自己的一個安全查核各單位都有自己的一個安全查核各單位都發生了重大的這些情報洩漏的事件那各單位的懲處狀況我希望說包含這個局長如果把你們的這個相關的懲處的報告給我們一份因為我們責任政治是這樣子啦就是說不可能夠重複的在犯一樣的錯誤那責任政治也是代表說當你犯錯誤的時候必須要有人負責\n\n10\n00:03:21,716 --> 00:03:39,471\n那不見得一定要到最上層但是直屬的必須要負責任那才是有一個經濟的方式那這個包括我們的懲處報告我們都要看因為如果說我們每次都用說這個是大家的責任啊這個是都有這樣子的問題啊這個是中共的責任啊\n\n11\n00:03:40,391 --> 00:04:05,010\n當然是中共的責任啊但是我們是為了要保密我們為了要確保說我們國家安全能夠被守護住當然也有行政的責任要去要去一一的再去把這個懲處的作用做好啊不然我們都不斷的在用這種官話把它帶過去好像沒事一樣欸幾件啊福建黨欸全部都有我們之前不是講過安全查核的問題嗎我們現在就不從法律上面來講我們就不從法律上面來講喔從行政上面來講\n\n12\n00:04:05,771 --> 00:04:10,499\n有我們今天講到國會的助理我記得國會助理的查核部分我們之前也有質詢過嘛\n\n13\n00:04:12,051 --> 00:04:38,087\n如果我們現在不是要用立法階段我們先不談立法立法的時序可能要很長如果由國會辦公室本身行為可不可以請國安局來簡單的對我們的僱用的人員做背景查核主動自願沒有沒有就政府機關這一部分的責任應該是在法務部的調查局所以這個我們如果可以請法務部調查局的話他們是不是可以來協助我們做這個查核\n\n14\n00:04:42,503 --> 00:05:05,146\n委員好跟委員報告那現在調查局執行這個安全查核是依照這個涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員安全查核的辦法對那他是一個正面表列的那目前依照這個辦法他正面表列了1328項的職務是可以由我們來執行安全查核但是沒有包含到國會助理\n\n15\n00:05:06,126 --> 00:05:23,536\n我們知道沒有包含到國會助理我們現在想請教的是說如果由國會辦公室因為涉及接觸的國家安全相關的資料主動希望說調查局能夠協助我們做行政上面的安全查核比方說很簡單嘛你就從出入境的這個狀況有沒有違規違紀的狀況\n\n16\n00:05:26,698 --> 00:05:39,575\n甚至是有沒有用藥或者是濫用酒精等等這些都是在這一般的這個美國的一些基本上是我了解我了解在執行上面如果說在執行上面沒有困難但是在法規上面\n\n17\n00:05:42,859 --> 00:06:02,860\n應該要完備啦因為這個部分畢竟是當事人他一個很私密的一個個人我的意思是他本身他是因為為了要進入這個國會並且要參與一些機密相關的檔案的他可能會涉密啊那這種狀況的之下行政上面是不是可以做到\n\n18\n00:06:03,641 --> 00:06:32,783\n在執行上沒有問題我們現在要請教說如果這樣有沒有違反現今的法令還是我們必須要立刻做修法應該要修法應該是要人事行政總署主管的這個法令應該要把他的查核的範圍再擴大當然我們很希望就是說能夠有一個更安全的機制不過在法規的法制面能夠完整的話其實這樣子是會比較完善\n\n19\n00:06:33,704 --> 00:06:53,545\n所以這個沒有辦法在行政上面直接做處理而是需要做修法上面來處理因為這個涉及到這個被查人他個人的隱私跟他的個人的資料這是一個很侵入性的一個做法應該要有法令的依據是會比較完備而且這個法令的修正不是那麼的困難\n\n20\n00:06:54,426 --> 00:07:20,828\nOK那是不是可以麻煩法務部可以給我們你們建議的修法的方向是那因為其實我們自己已經有提出相關的法案我們是希望是擴大辦理安全查核啦但是具體的做法因為法務部比較了解這個法律上面的制定的相關的一些程序那再麻煩好謝謝委員這沒有問題可不可以兩週內給我們一個修法的方向那我們可以拿來研究是好不好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝局長我\n\n21\n00:07:23,571 --> 00:07:49,473\n我們談這些其實重點是因為接觸到許多機敏文件的人他不見得就是在任職非常高官他可能只是在總統撤進的人而已所以為什麼安全查核他必須要去徹底的執行我剛剛問了那麼多責任就是說因為感覺上好像都有做但是\n\n22\n00:07:50,174 --> 00:08:05,847\n好像都沒在做就是你好像都有做行事上面的流程的完備那可是一再的發生這些問題那是不是代表說我們行政上面要做什麼修正呢比方說我們剛剛講到的出入境那假設他們就像這次的這個國會助理的狀況\n\n23\n00:08:07,188 --> 00:08:33,286\n還有這一個前辦公室它是在新北市的嘛黨工的狀況它是在國內交付的嘛所以說變成說國內交付資訊在一層再湊成一層的話那可能就是不能夠只從出入境或者是這樣子的有沒有出境港澳這樣子去看而已可能包含它的金融上面的這些狀況都可能要做查核的這個部分不知道局長有沒有什麼建議因為我實在是也沒有想出什麼\n\n24\n00:08:33,766 --> 00:08:58,796\n我跟委員說明一下因為我們剛剛委員舉的案例是個案因為在偵辦我不能談個案的細節但是就這一類的所謂的共諜案的偵辦那我們的偵辦的手法確實是還蠻多元的但因為它有涉及到我們不太適合揭露我們的偵辦手法而讓可能的潛在共諜會有一些防範的動作所以容許我們只要是沒關係我們不用除了偵辦之外防範這個部分我們講的這個東西就是防範是\n\n25\n00:09:03,558 --> 00:09:22,611\n偵辦的話法務部要去偵辦調查局要去偵辦嘛那國安局作為同欄不同的機構部門情報部門的我們就是要事先來去做阻止它什麼叫事先阻止我們一直提到的安全查核也講了蠻多次的那好像行政院也有來跟我們討論說未來的立法方向\n\n26\n00:09:24,212 --> 00:09:41,813\n我是真的希望說再多參考一點啦因為時間不等人啦我們已經講了蠻久的這個我也不是我不是第一天來就說局長你這要負什麼什麼責任的不是嘛我不是這樣子的這已經過了一年多了那層出不窮這個單子不斷地在累積不過換另外一個角度跟委員說明的\n\n27\n00:09:42,733 --> 00:10:11,092\n會有這麼多的共諜案是因為我們在軍中官兵的保防意識真的是越來越高有很多共諜案大概有八成七都是由國軍官兵來檢舉的所以我們當然看到有很多的共諜案被偵破但另一方面顯示也是軍中的保防教育不斷的在提升我們才有這樣的偵辦的成果我們也希望是這樣就是很樂觀的看待但是對防範的部分要用最悲觀的角度去做那我當然\n\n28\n00:10:12,641 --> 00:10:39,486\n數目多不代表說我們國家安全狀況越來越嚴峻它可能代表說我們偵查的能量越來越強大都有可能但是但是這個平凡的程序這個涉及的這個離總統的乘風是越來越近那這個層級是越來越高那我有看到你們的報告你也從士官到軍官從現役到退役現役的比例是越來越高喔\n\n29\n00:10:40,919 --> 00:10:48,093\n這些都是你們的數據這個我是希望說大家加油一點好不好因為這個從內部瓦解是最容易的好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n953\t17420\t你好 我們請局長好 謝謝主席 蔡委員早局長早局長您就任到現在多久了兩年多\n19349\t45146\t局長我們就不講這兩年我們講這一年從現在往前12個月到現在我們跟國家相關的共諜案件受社會矚目的案件大概有18個案件每個月都有一個重大案件所謂重大案件就是不管是我們的福建黨不管是我們的陸海空不管是我們的軍警線甚至通常情報部門都有相關的泄密的狀況\n46499\t65415\t那這個狀況我一直想請教就是說局長已經兩年多了嘛當然兩年多了有沒有什麼精進的方法因為如果說第一年的話我們當然是那是過去的累積那我們沒辦法去做一些回應但是當已經就此兩年多的話我可能就要具體來請教局長你們的具體的方案是什麼\n66583\t93946\t對這部分剛剛也很多委員在關切那我們在偵辦這些共諜案來講我們事實上不只是我們國安情報團隊我們跟調查機關跟檢方那也都建立起非常密切的一個聯繫希望能夠針對共諜案的法律要件的建構能夠讓它成案率比較高那另外我們也跟院方包括法官門也跟法官學院來針對共諜案的一些樣態來跟他們上課所以我們希望做的是情報機關\n95007\t114726\t調查機關 檢查機關 跟審理機關對於共諜案在審理上能夠比較有一致的看法謝謝局長 你的說法非常好就是說我們要這個檢討但我現在講的是責任的政治總統府有憲兵跟警察姓名的狀況這就總統維安的部分請問這個安全查核是由國安局負責的嗎\n116191\t134306\t這個部分當然國安局責無旁貸因為我們國安局在負責總統維安協情的單位加起來可能包括的有總統府包括我們的特勤中心包括有國防部的警衛大隊包括各縣市警察局的警察同仁還有縣指部的同仁都在裡面加起來可能有幾十萬人\n135006\t160229\t那在安全查核上我們當然會比較優先重要的部分是比較會涉及到一些比較機密日常活動的部分那來加強相關的查核那也跟委員說明我知道委員的辦公室也在關切這個問題我們也跟委員的辦公室有報告那我們的包括我們的移測的頻次已經越來越增加那總統府的憲兵指揮部的2111的安全查核是由哪一個單位負責\n161530\t175838\t應該縣指部 因為指揮官也在嘛那指揮官也在他們有一套查核的機制那我們這邊也會來協助有必要來做一些督導我們會來積極的來推辦保六總隊的第一警官大隊的安全查核是由哪一個單位來負責\n176698\t200956\t各單位都有自己的一個安全查核各單位都有自己的一個安全查核各單位都發生了重大的這些情報洩漏的事件那各單位的懲處狀況我希望說包含這個局長如果把你們的這個相關的懲處的報告給我們一份因為我們責任政治是這樣子啦就是說不可能夠重複的在犯一樣的錯誤那責任政治也是代表說當你犯錯誤的時候必須要有人負責\n201716\t219471\t那不見得一定要到最上層但是直屬的必須要負責任那才是有一個經濟的方式那這個包括我們的懲處報告我們都要看因為如果說我們每次都用說這個是大家的責任啊這個是都有這樣子的問題啊這個是中共的責任啊\n220391\t245010\t當然是中共的責任啊但是我們是為了要保密我們為了要確保說我們國家安全能夠被守護住當然也有行政的責任要去要去一一的再去把這個懲處的作用做好啊不然我們都不斷的在用這種官話把它帶過去好像沒事一樣欸幾件啊福建黨欸全部都有我們之前不是講過安全查核的問題嗎我們現在就不從法律上面來講我們就不從法律上面來講喔從行政上面來講\n245771\t250499\t有 我們今天講到國會的助理我記得國會助理的查核部分我們之前也有質詢過嘛\n252051\t278087\t如果我們現在不是要用立法階段我們先不談立法 立法的時序可能要很長如果由國會辦公室本身行為可不可以請國安局來簡單的對我們的僱用的人員做背景查核主動自願沒有沒有 就政府機關這一部分的責任應該是在法務部的調查局所以這個我們如果可以請法務部調查局的話他們是不是可以來協助我們做這個查核\n282503\t305146\t委員好跟委員報告那現在調查局執行這個安全查核是依照這個涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員安全查核的辦法對那他是一個正面表列的那目前依照這個辦法他正面表列了1328項的職務是可以由我們來執行安全查核但是沒有包含到國會助理\n306126\t323536\t我們知道沒有包含到國會助理我們現在想請教的是說如果由國會辦公室因為涉及接觸的國家安全相關的資料主動希望說調查局能夠協助我們做行政上面的安全查核比方說很簡單嘛你就從出入境的這個狀況有沒有違規違紀的狀況\n326698\t339575\t甚至是有沒有用藥或者是濫用酒精等等這些都是在這一般的這個美國的一些基本上是我了解我了解在執行上面如果說在執行上面沒有困難但是在法規上面\n342859\t362860\t應該要完備啦 因為這個部分畢竟是當事人他一個很私密的一個個人 我的意思是他本身他是因為為了要進入這個國會並且要參與一些機密相關的檔案的 他可能會涉密啊那這種狀況的之下 行政上面是不是可以做到\n363641\t392783\t在執行上沒有問題我們現在要請教說如果這樣有沒有違反現今的法令還是我們必須要立刻做修法應該要修法應該是要人事行政總署主管的這個法令應該要把他的查核的範圍再擴大當然我們很希望就是說能夠有一個更安全的機制不過在法規的法制面能夠完整的話其實這樣子是會比較完善\n393704\t413545\t所以這個沒有辦法在行政上面直接做處理而是需要做修法上面來處理因為這個涉及到這個被查人他個人的隱私跟他的個人的資料這是一個很侵入性的一個做法應該要有法令的依據是會比較完備而且這個法令的修正不是那麼的困難\n414426\t440828\tOK那是不是可以麻煩法務部可以給我們你們建議的修法的方向是那因為其實我們自己已經有提出相關的法案我們是希望是擴大辦理安全查核啦但是具體的做法因為法務部比較了解這個法律上面的制定的相關的一些程序那再麻煩好謝謝委員這沒有問題可不可以兩週內給我們一個修法的方向那我們可以拿來研究是好不好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝局長我\n443571\t469473\t我們談這些其實重點是因為接觸到許多機敏文件的人他不見得就是在任職非常高官他可能只是在總統撤進的人而已所以為什麼安全查核他必須要去徹底的執行我剛剛問了那麼多責任就是說因為感覺上好像都有做但是\n470174\t485847\t好像都沒在做就是你好像都有做行事上面的流程的完備那可是一再的發生這些問題那是不是代表說我們行政上面要做什麼修正呢比方說我們剛剛講到的出入境那假設他們就像這次的這個國會助理的狀況\n487188\t513286\t還有這一個前辦公室 它是在新北市的嘛 黨工的狀況它是在國內交付的嘛所以說變成說國內交付資訊在一層再湊成一層的話那可能就是不能夠只從出入境或者是這樣子的有沒有出境港澳這樣子去看而已可能包含它的金融上面的這些狀況都可能要做查核的這個部分不知道局長有沒有什麼建議因為我實在是也沒有想出什麼\n513766\t538796\t我跟委員說明一下因為我們剛剛委員舉的案例是個案因為在偵辦我不能談個案的細節但是就這一類的所謂的共諜案的偵辦那我們的偵辦的手法確實是還蠻多元的但因為它有涉及到我們不太適合揭露我們的偵辦手法而讓可能的潛在共諜會有一些防範的動作所以容許我們只要是沒關係我們不用除了偵辦之外防範這個部分我們講的這個東西就是防範是\n543558\t562611\t偵辦的話法務部要去偵辦調查局要去偵辦嘛那國安局作為同欄不同的機構部門情報部門的我們就是要事先來去做阻止它什麼叫事先阻止我們一直提到的安全查核也講了蠻多次的那好像行政院也有來跟我們討論說未來的立法方向\n564212\t581813\t我是真的希望說再多參考一點啦因為時間不等人啦我們已經講了蠻久的這個我也不是我不是第一天來就說局長你這要負什麼什麼責任的不是嘛我不是這樣子的這已經過了一年多了那層出不窮這個單子不斷地在累積不過換另外一個角度跟委員說明的\n582733\t611092\t會有這麼多的共諜案是因為我們在軍中官兵的保防意識真的是越來越高有很多共諜案大概有八成七都是由國軍官兵來檢舉的所以我們當然看到有很多的共諜案被偵破但另一方面顯示也是軍中的保防教育不斷的在提升我們才有這樣的偵辦的成果我們也希望是這樣就是很樂觀的看待但是對防範的部分要用最悲觀的角度去做那我當然\n612641\t639486\t數目多不代表說我們國家安全狀況越來越嚴峻它可能代表說我們偵查的能量越來越強大都有可能但是但是這個平凡的程序這個涉及的這個離總統的乘風是越來越近那這個層級是越來越高那我有看到你們的報告你也從士官到軍官從現役到退役現役的比例是越來越高喔\n640919\t648093\t這些都是你們的數據這個我是希望說大家加油一點好不好因為這個從內部瓦解是最容易的好 謝謝\n","txt":"你好 我們請局長好 謝謝主席 蔡委員早局長早局長您就任到現在多久了兩年多\n局長我們就不講這兩年我們講這一年從現在往前12個月到現在我們跟國家相關的共諜案件受社會矚目的案件大概有18個案件每個月都有一個重大案件所謂重大案件就是不管是我們的福建黨不管是我們的陸海空不管是我們的軍警線甚至通常情報部門都有相關的泄密的狀況\n那這個狀況我一直想請教就是說局長已經兩年多了嘛當然兩年多了有沒有什麼精進的方法因為如果說第一年的話我們當然是那是過去的累積那我們沒辦法去做一些回應但是當已經就此兩年多的話我可能就要具體來請教局長你們的具體的方案是什麼\n對這部分剛剛也很多委員在關切那我們在偵辦這些共諜案來講我們事實上不只是我們國安情報團隊我們跟調查機關跟檢方那也都建立起非常密切的一個聯繫希望能夠針對共諜案的法律要件的建構能夠讓它成案率比較高那另外我們也跟院方包括法官門也跟法官學院來針對共諜案的一些樣態來跟他們上課所以我們希望做的是情報機關\n調查機關 檢查機關 跟審理機關對於共諜案在審理上能夠比較有一致的看法謝謝局長 你的說法非常好就是說我們要這個檢討但我現在講的是責任的政治總統府有憲兵跟警察姓名的狀況這就總統維安的部分請問這個安全查核是由國安局負責的嗎\n這個部分當然國安局責無旁貸因為我們國安局在負責總統維安協情的單位加起來可能包括的有總統府包括我們的特勤中心包括有國防部的警衛大隊包括各縣市警察局的警察同仁還有縣指部的同仁都在裡面加起來可能有幾十萬人\n那在安全查核上我們當然會比較優先重要的部分是比較會涉及到一些比較機密日常活動的部分那來加強相關的查核那也跟委員說明我知道委員的辦公室也在關切這個問題我們也跟委員的辦公室有報告那我們的包括我們的移測的頻次已經越來越增加那總統府的憲兵指揮部的2111的安全查核是由哪一個單位負責\n應該縣指部 因為指揮官也在嘛那指揮官也在他們有一套查核的機制那我們這邊也會來協助有必要來做一些督導我們會來積極的來推辦保六總隊的第一警官大隊的安全查核是由哪一個單位來負責\n各單位都有自己的一個安全查核各單位都有自己的一個安全查核各單位都發生了重大的這些情報洩漏的事件那各單位的懲處狀況我希望說包含這個局長如果把你們的這個相關的懲處的報告給我們一份因為我們責任政治是這樣子啦就是說不可能夠重複的在犯一樣的錯誤那責任政治也是代表說當你犯錯誤的時候必須要有人負責\n那不見得一定要到最上層但是直屬的必須要負責任那才是有一個經濟的方式那這個包括我們的懲處報告我們都要看因為如果說我們每次都用說這個是大家的責任啊這個是都有這樣子的問題啊這個是中共的責任啊\n當然是中共的責任啊但是我們是為了要保密我們為了要確保說我們國家安全能夠被守護住當然也有行政的責任要去要去一一的再去把這個懲處的作用做好啊不然我們都不斷的在用這種官話把它帶過去好像沒事一樣欸幾件啊福建黨欸全部都有我們之前不是講過安全查核的問題嗎我們現在就不從法律上面來講我們就不從法律上面來講喔從行政上面來講\n有 我們今天講到國會的助理我記得國會助理的查核部分我們之前也有質詢過嘛\n如果我們現在不是要用立法階段我們先不談立法 立法的時序可能要很長如果由國會辦公室本身行為可不可以請國安局來簡單的對我們的僱用的人員做背景查核主動自願沒有沒有 就政府機關這一部分的責任應該是在法務部的調查局所以這個我們如果可以請法務部調查局的話他們是不是可以來協助我們做這個查核\n委員好跟委員報告那現在調查局執行這個安全查核是依照這個涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員安全查核的辦法對那他是一個正面表列的那目前依照這個辦法他正面表列了1328項的職務是可以由我們來執行安全查核但是沒有包含到國會助理\n我們知道沒有包含到國會助理我們現在想請教的是說如果由國會辦公室因為涉及接觸的國家安全相關的資料主動希望說調查局能夠協助我們做行政上面的安全查核比方說很簡單嘛你就從出入境的這個狀況有沒有違規違紀的狀況\n甚至是有沒有用藥或者是濫用酒精等等這些都是在這一般的這個美國的一些基本上是我了解我了解在執行上面如果說在執行上面沒有困難但是在法規上面\n應該要完備啦 因為這個部分畢竟是當事人他一個很私密的一個個人 我的意思是他本身他是因為為了要進入這個國會並且要參與一些機密相關的檔案的 他可能會涉密啊那這種狀況的之下 行政上面是不是可以做到\n在執行上沒有問題我們現在要請教說如果這樣有沒有違反現今的法令還是我們必須要立刻做修法應該要修法應該是要人事行政總署主管的這個法令應該要把他的查核的範圍再擴大當然我們很希望就是說能夠有一個更安全的機制不過在法規的法制面能夠完整的話其實這樣子是會比較完善\n所以這個沒有辦法在行政上面直接做處理而是需要做修法上面來處理因為這個涉及到這個被查人他個人的隱私跟他的個人的資料這是一個很侵入性的一個做法應該要有法令的依據是會比較完備而且這個法令的修正不是那麼的困難\nOK那是不是可以麻煩法務部可以給我們你們建議的修法的方向是那因為其實我們自己已經有提出相關的法案我們是希望是擴大辦理安全查核啦但是具體的做法因為法務部比較了解這個法律上面的制定的相關的一些程序那再麻煩好謝謝委員這沒有問題可不可以兩週內給我們一個修法的方向那我們可以拿來研究是好不好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝局長我\n我們談這些其實重點是因為接觸到許多機敏文件的人他不見得就是在任職非常高官他可能只是在總統撤進的人而已所以為什麼安全查核他必須要去徹底的執行我剛剛問了那麼多責任就是說因為感覺上好像都有做但是\n好像都沒在做就是你好像都有做行事上面的流程的完備那可是一再的發生這些問題那是不是代表說我們行政上面要做什麼修正呢比方說我們剛剛講到的出入境那假設他們就像這次的這個國會助理的狀況\n還有這一個前辦公室 它是在新北市的嘛 黨工的狀況它是在國內交付的嘛所以說變成說國內交付資訊在一層再湊成一層的話那可能就是不能夠只從出入境或者是這樣子的有沒有出境港澳這樣子去看而已可能包含它的金融上面的這些狀況都可能要做查核的這個部分不知道局長有沒有什麼建議因為我實在是也沒有想出什麼\n我跟委員說明一下因為我們剛剛委員舉的案例是個案因為在偵辦我不能談個案的細節但是就這一類的所謂的共諜案的偵辦那我們的偵辦的手法確實是還蠻多元的但因為它有涉及到我們不太適合揭露我們的偵辦手法而讓可能的潛在共諜會有一些防範的動作所以容許我們只要是沒關係我們不用除了偵辦之外防範這個部分我們講的這個東西就是防範是\n偵辦的話法務部要去偵辦調查局要去偵辦嘛那國安局作為同欄不同的機構部門情報部門的我們就是要事先來去做阻止它什麼叫事先阻止我們一直提到的安全查核也講了蠻多次的那好像行政院也有來跟我們討論說未來的立法方向\n我是真的希望說再多參考一點啦因為時間不等人啦我們已經講了蠻久的這個我也不是我不是第一天來就說局長你這要負什麼什麼責任的不是嘛我不是這樣子的這已經過了一年多了那層出不窮這個單子不斷地在累積不過換另外一個角度跟委員說明的\n會有這麼多的共諜案是因為我們在軍中官兵的保防意識真的是越來越高有很多共諜案大概有八成七都是由國軍官兵來檢舉的所以我們當然看到有很多的共諜案被偵破但另一方面顯示也是軍中的保防教育不斷的在提升我們才有這樣的偵辦的成果我們也希望是這樣就是很樂觀的看待但是對防範的部分要用最悲觀的角度去做那我當然\n數目多不代表說我們國家安全狀況越來越嚴峻它可能代表說我們偵查的能量越來越強大都有可能但是但是這個平凡的程序這個涉及的這個離總統的乘風是越來越近那這個層級是越來越高那我有看到你們的報告你也從士官到軍官從現役到退役現役的比例是越來越高喔\n這些都是你們的數據這個我是希望說大家加油一點好不好因為這個從內部瓦解是最容易的好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.953 --> 00:17.420\n你好我們請局長好謝謝主席蔡委員早局長早局長您就任到現在多久了兩年多\n\n00:19.349 --> 00:45.146\n局長我們就不講這兩年我們講這一年從現在往前12個月到現在我們跟國家相關的共諜案件受社會矚目的案件大概有18個案件每個月都有一個重大案件所謂重大案件就是不管是我們的福建黨不管是我們的陸海空不管是我們的軍警線甚至通常情報部門都有相關的泄密的狀況\n\n00:46.499 --> 01:05.415\n那這個狀況我一直想請教就是說局長已經兩年多了嘛當然兩年多了有沒有什麼精進的方法因為如果說第一年的話我們當然是那是過去的累積那我們沒辦法去做一些回應但是當已經就此兩年多的話我可能就要具體來請教局長你們的具體的方案是什麼\n\n01:06.583 --> 01:33.946\n對這部分剛剛也很多委員在關切那我們在偵辦這些共諜案來講我們事實上不只是我們國安情報團隊我們跟調查機關跟檢方那也都建立起非常密切的一個聯繫希望能夠針對共諜案的法律要件的建構能夠讓它成案率比較高那另外我們也跟院方包括法官門也跟法官學院來針對共諜案的一些樣態來跟他們上課所以我們希望做的是情報機關\n\n01:35.007 --> 01:54.726\n調查機關檢查機關跟審理機關對於共諜案在審理上能夠比較有一致的看法謝謝局長你的說法非常好就是說我們要這個檢討但我現在講的是責任的政治總統府有憲兵跟警察姓名的狀況這就總統維安的部分請問這個安全查核是由國安局負責的嗎\n\n01:56.191 --> 02:14.306\n這個部分當然國安局責無旁貸因為我們國安局在負責總統維安協情的單位加起來可能包括的有總統府包括我們的特勤中心包括有國防部的警衛大隊包括各縣市警察局的警察同仁還有縣指部的同仁都在裡面加起來可能有幾十萬人\n\n02:15.006 --> 02:40.229\n那在安全查核上我們當然會比較優先重要的部分是比較會涉及到一些比較機密日常活動的部分那來加強相關的查核那也跟委員說明我知道委員的辦公室也在關切這個問題我們也跟委員的辦公室有報告那我們的包括我們的移測的頻次已經越來越增加那總統府的憲兵指揮部的2111的安全查核是由哪一個單位負責\n\n02:41.530 --> 02:55.838\n應該縣指部因為指揮官也在嘛那指揮官也在他們有一套查核的機制那我們這邊也會來協助有必要來做一些督導我們會來積極的來推辦保六總隊的第一警官大隊的安全查核是由哪一個單位來負責\n\n02:56.698 --> 03:20.956\n各單位都有自己的一個安全查核各單位都有自己的一個安全查核各單位都發生了重大的這些情報洩漏的事件那各單位的懲處狀況我希望說包含這個局長如果把你們的這個相關的懲處的報告給我們一份因為我們責任政治是這樣子啦就是說不可能夠重複的在犯一樣的錯誤那責任政治也是代表說當你犯錯誤的時候必須要有人負責\n\n03:21.716 --> 03:39.471\n那不見得一定要到最上層但是直屬的必須要負責任那才是有一個經濟的方式那這個包括我們的懲處報告我們都要看因為如果說我們每次都用說這個是大家的責任啊這個是都有這樣子的問題啊這個是中共的責任啊\n\n03:40.391 --> 04:05.010\n當然是中共的責任啊但是我們是為了要保密我們為了要確保說我們國家安全能夠被守護住當然也有行政的責任要去要去一一的再去把這個懲處的作用做好啊不然我們都不斷的在用這種官話把它帶過去好像沒事一樣欸幾件啊福建黨欸全部都有我們之前不是講過安全查核的問題嗎我們現在就不從法律上面來講我們就不從法律上面來講喔從行政上面來講\n\n04:05.771 --> 04:10.499\n有我們今天講到國會的助理我記得國會助理的查核部分我們之前也有質詢過嘛\n\n04:12.051 --> 04:38.087\n如果我們現在不是要用立法階段我們先不談立法立法的時序可能要很長如果由國會辦公室本身行為可不可以請國安局來簡單的對我們的僱用的人員做背景查核主動自願沒有沒有就政府機關這一部分的責任應該是在法務部的調查局所以這個我們如果可以請法務部調查局的話他們是不是可以來協助我們做這個查核\n\n04:42.503 --> 05:05.146\n委員好跟委員報告那現在調查局執行這個安全查核是依照這個涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員安全查核的辦法對那他是一個正面表列的那目前依照這個辦法他正面表列了1328項的職務是可以由我們來執行安全查核但是沒有包含到國會助理\n\n05:06.126 --> 05:23.536\n我們知道沒有包含到國會助理我們現在想請教的是說如果由國會辦公室因為涉及接觸的國家安全相關的資料主動希望說調查局能夠協助我們做行政上面的安全查核比方說很簡單嘛你就從出入境的這個狀況有沒有違規違紀的狀況\n\n05:26.698 --> 05:39.575\n甚至是有沒有用藥或者是濫用酒精等等這些都是在這一般的這個美國的一些基本上是我了解我了解在執行上面如果說在執行上面沒有困難但是在法規上面\n\n05:42.859 --> 06:02.860\n應該要完備啦因為這個部分畢竟是當事人他一個很私密的一個個人我的意思是他本身他是因為為了要進入這個國會並且要參與一些機密相關的檔案的他可能會涉密啊那這種狀況的之下行政上面是不是可以做到\n\n06:03.641 --> 06:32.783\n在執行上沒有問題我們現在要請教說如果這樣有沒有違反現今的法令還是我們必須要立刻做修法應該要修法應該是要人事行政總署主管的這個法令應該要把他的查核的範圍再擴大當然我們很希望就是說能夠有一個更安全的機制不過在法規的法制面能夠完整的話其實這樣子是會比較完善\n\n06:33.704 --> 06:53.545\n所以這個沒有辦法在行政上面直接做處理而是需要做修法上面來處理因為這個涉及到這個被查人他個人的隱私跟他的個人的資料這是一個很侵入性的一個做法應該要有法令的依據是會比較完備而且這個法令的修正不是那麼的困難\n\n06:54.426 --> 07:20.828\nOK那是不是可以麻煩法務部可以給我們你們建議的修法的方向是那因為其實我們自己已經有提出相關的法案我們是希望是擴大辦理安全查核啦但是具體的做法因為法務部比較了解這個法律上面的制定的相關的一些程序那再麻煩好謝謝委員這沒有問題可不可以兩週內給我們一個修法的方向那我們可以拿來研究是好不好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝局長我\n\n07:23.571 --> 07:49.473\n我們談這些其實重點是因為接觸到許多機敏文件的人他不見得就是在任職非常高官他可能只是在總統撤進的人而已所以為什麼安全查核他必須要去徹底的執行我剛剛問了那麼多責任就是說因為感覺上好像都有做但是\n\n07:50.174 --> 08:05.847\n好像都沒在做就是你好像都有做行事上面的流程的完備那可是一再的發生這些問題那是不是代表說我們行政上面要做什麼修正呢比方說我們剛剛講到的出入境那假設他們就像這次的這個國會助理的狀況\n\n08:07.188 --> 08:33.286\n還有這一個前辦公室它是在新北市的嘛黨工的狀況它是在國內交付的嘛所以說變成說國內交付資訊在一層再湊成一層的話那可能就是不能夠只從出入境或者是這樣子的有沒有出境港澳這樣子去看而已可能包含它的金融上面的這些狀況都可能要做查核的這個部分不知道局長有沒有什麼建議因為我實在是也沒有想出什麼\n\n08:33.766 --> 08:58.796\n我跟委員說明一下因為我們剛剛委員舉的案例是個案因為在偵辦我不能談個案的細節但是就這一類的所謂的共諜案的偵辦那我們的偵辦的手法確實是還蠻多元的但因為它有涉及到我們不太適合揭露我們的偵辦手法而讓可能的潛在共諜會有一些防範的動作所以容許我們只要是沒關係我們不用除了偵辦之外防範這個部分我們講的這個東西就是防範是\n\n09:03.558 --> 09:22.611\n偵辦的話法務部要去偵辦調查局要去偵辦嘛那國安局作為同欄不同的機構部門情報部門的我們就是要事先來去做阻止它什麼叫事先阻止我們一直提到的安全查核也講了蠻多次的那好像行政院也有來跟我們討論說未來的立法方向\n\n09:24.212 --> 09:41.813\n我是真的希望說再多參考一點啦因為時間不等人啦我們已經講了蠻久的這個我也不是我不是第一天來就說局長你這要負什麼什麼責任的不是嘛我不是這樣子的這已經過了一年多了那層出不窮這個單子不斷地在累積不過換另外一個角度跟委員說明的\n\n09:42.733 --> 10:11.092\n會有這麼多的共諜案是因為我們在軍中官兵的保防意識真的是越來越高有很多共諜案大概有八成七都是由國軍官兵來檢舉的所以我們當然看到有很多的共諜案被偵破但另一方面顯示也是軍中的保防教育不斷的在提升我們才有這樣的偵辦的成果我們也希望是這樣就是很樂觀的看待但是對防範的部分要用最悲觀的角度去做那我當然\n\n10:12.641 --> 10:39.486\n數目多不代表說我們國家安全狀況越來越嚴峻它可能代表說我們偵查的能量越來越強大都有可能但是但是這個平凡的程序這個涉及的這個離總統的乘風是越來越近那這個層級是越來越高那我有看到你們的報告你也從士官到軍官從現役到退役現役的比例是越來越高喔\n\n10:40.919 --> 10:48.093\n這些都是你們的數據這個我是希望說大家加油一點好不好因為這個從內部瓦解是最容易的好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.953,"end":17.42,"text":"你好 我們請局長好 謝謝主席 蔡委員早局長早局長您就任到現在多久了兩年多"},{"start":19.349,"end":45.146,"text":"局長我們就不講這兩年我們講這一年從現在往前12個月到現在我們跟國家相關的共諜案件受社會矚目的案件大概有18個案件每個月都有一個重大案件所謂重大案件就是不管是我們的福建黨不管是我們的陸海空不管是我們的軍警線甚至通常情報部門都有相關的泄密的狀況"},{"start":46.499,"end":65.415,"text":"那這個狀況我一直想請教就是說局長已經兩年多了嘛當然兩年多了有沒有什麼精進的方法因為如果說第一年的話我們當然是那是過去的累積那我們沒辦法去做一些回應但是當已經就此兩年多的話我可能就要具體來請教局長你們的具體的方案是什麼"},{"start":66.583,"end":93.946,"text":"對這部分剛剛也很多委員在關切那我們在偵辦這些共諜案來講我們事實上不只是我們國安情報團隊我們跟調查機關跟檢方那也都建立起非常密切的一個聯繫希望能夠針對共諜案的法律要件的建構能夠讓它成案率比較高那另外我們也跟院方包括法官門也跟法官學院來針對共諜案的一些樣態來跟他們上課所以我們希望做的是情報機關"},{"start":95.007,"end":114.726,"text":"調查機關 檢查機關 跟審理機關對於共諜案在審理上能夠比較有一致的看法謝謝局長 你的說法非常好就是說我們要這個檢討但我現在講的是責任的政治總統府有憲兵跟警察姓名的狀況這就總統維安的部分請問這個安全查核是由國安局負責的嗎"},{"start":116.191,"end":134.306,"text":"這個部分當然國安局責無旁貸因為我們國安局在負責總統維安協情的單位加起來可能包括的有總統府包括我們的特勤中心包括有國防部的警衛大隊包括各縣市警察局的警察同仁還有縣指部的同仁都在裡面加起來可能有幾十萬人"},{"start":135.006,"end":160.229,"text":"那在安全查核上我們當然會比較優先重要的部分是比較會涉及到一些比較機密日常活動的部分那來加強相關的查核那也跟委員說明我知道委員的辦公室也在關切這個問題我們也跟委員的辦公室有報告那我們的包括我們的移測的頻次已經越來越增加那總統府的憲兵指揮部的2111的安全查核是由哪一個單位負責"},{"start":161.53,"end":175.838,"text":"應該縣指部 因為指揮官也在嘛那指揮官也在他們有一套查核的機制那我們這邊也會來協助有必要來做一些督導我們會來積極的來推辦保六總隊的第一警官大隊的安全查核是由哪一個單位來負責"},{"start":176.698,"end":200.956,"text":"各單位都有自己的一個安全查核各單位都有自己的一個安全查核各單位都發生了重大的這些情報洩漏的事件那各單位的懲處狀況我希望說包含這個局長如果把你們的這個相關的懲處的報告給我們一份因為我們責任政治是這樣子啦就是說不可能夠重複的在犯一樣的錯誤那責任政治也是代表說當你犯錯誤的時候必須要有人負責"},{"start":201.716,"end":219.471,"text":"那不見得一定要到最上層但是直屬的必須要負責任那才是有一個經濟的方式那這個包括我們的懲處報告我們都要看因為如果說我們每次都用說這個是大家的責任啊這個是都有這樣子的問題啊這個是中共的責任啊"},{"start":220.391,"end":245.01,"text":"當然是中共的責任啊但是我們是為了要保密我們為了要確保說我們國家安全能夠被守護住當然也有行政的責任要去要去一一的再去把這個懲處的作用做好啊不然我們都不斷的在用這種官話把它帶過去好像沒事一樣欸幾件啊福建黨欸全部都有我們之前不是講過安全查核的問題嗎我們現在就不從法律上面來講我們就不從法律上面來講喔從行政上面來講"},{"start":245.771,"end":250.499,"text":"有 我們今天講到國會的助理我記得國會助理的查核部分我們之前也有質詢過嘛"},{"start":252.051,"end":278.087,"text":"如果我們現在不是要用立法階段我們先不談立法 立法的時序可能要很長如果由國會辦公室本身行為可不可以請國安局來簡單的對我們的僱用的人員做背景查核主動自願沒有沒有 就政府機關這一部分的責任應該是在法務部的調查局所以這個我們如果可以請法務部調查局的話他們是不是可以來協助我們做這個查核"},{"start":282.503,"end":305.146,"text":"委員好跟委員報告那現在調查局執行這個安全查核是依照這個涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員安全查核的辦法對那他是一個正面表列的那目前依照這個辦法他正面表列了1328項的職務是可以由我們來執行安全查核但是沒有包含到國會助理"},{"start":306.126,"end":323.536,"text":"我們知道沒有包含到國會助理我們現在想請教的是說如果由國會辦公室因為涉及接觸的國家安全相關的資料主動希望說調查局能夠協助我們做行政上面的安全查核比方說很簡單嘛你就從出入境的這個狀況有沒有違規違紀的狀況"},{"start":326.698,"end":339.575,"text":"甚至是有沒有用藥或者是濫用酒精等等這些都是在這一般的這個美國的一些基本上是我了解我了解在執行上面如果說在執行上面沒有困難但是在法規上面"},{"start":342.859,"end":362.86,"text":"應該要完備啦 因為這個部分畢竟是當事人他一個很私密的一個個人 我的意思是他本身他是因為為了要進入這個國會並且要參與一些機密相關的檔案的 他可能會涉密啊那這種狀況的之下 行政上面是不是可以做到"},{"start":363.641,"end":392.783,"text":"在執行上沒有問題我們現在要請教說如果這樣有沒有違反現今的法令還是我們必須要立刻做修法應該要修法應該是要人事行政總署主管的這個法令應該要把他的查核的範圍再擴大當然我們很希望就是說能夠有一個更安全的機制不過在法規的法制面能夠完整的話其實這樣子是會比較完善"},{"start":393.704,"end":413.545,"text":"所以這個沒有辦法在行政上面直接做處理而是需要做修法上面來處理因為這個涉及到這個被查人他個人的隱私跟他的個人的資料這是一個很侵入性的一個做法應該要有法令的依據是會比較完備而且這個法令的修正不是那麼的困難"},{"start":414.426,"end":440.828,"text":"OK那是不是可以麻煩法務部可以給我們你們建議的修法的方向是那因為其實我們自己已經有提出相關的法案我們是希望是擴大辦理安全查核啦但是具體的做法因為法務部比較了解這個法律上面的制定的相關的一些程序那再麻煩好謝謝委員這沒有問題可不可以兩週內給我們一個修法的方向那我們可以拿來研究是好不好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝局長我"},{"start":443.571,"end":469.473,"text":"我們談這些其實重點是因為接觸到許多機敏文件的人他不見得就是在任職非常高官他可能只是在總統撤進的人而已所以為什麼安全查核他必須要去徹底的執行我剛剛問了那麼多責任就是說因為感覺上好像都有做但是"},{"start":470.174,"end":485.847,"text":"好像都沒在做就是你好像都有做行事上面的流程的完備那可是一再的發生這些問題那是不是代表說我們行政上面要做什麼修正呢比方說我們剛剛講到的出入境那假設他們就像這次的這個國會助理的狀況"},{"start":487.188,"end":513.286,"text":"還有這一個前辦公室 它是在新北市的嘛 黨工的狀況它是在國內交付的嘛所以說變成說國內交付資訊在一層再湊成一層的話那可能就是不能夠只從出入境或者是這樣子的有沒有出境港澳這樣子去看而已可能包含它的金融上面的這些狀況都可能要做查核的這個部分不知道局長有沒有什麼建議因為我實在是也沒有想出什麼"},{"start":513.766,"end":538.796,"text":"我跟委員說明一下因為我們剛剛委員舉的案例是個案因為在偵辦我不能談個案的細節但是就這一類的所謂的共諜案的偵辦那我們的偵辦的手法確實是還蠻多元的但因為它有涉及到我們不太適合揭露我們的偵辦手法而讓可能的潛在共諜會有一些防範的動作所以容許我們只要是沒關係我們不用除了偵辦之外防範這個部分我們講的這個東西就是防範是"},{"start":543.558,"end":562.611,"text":"偵辦的話法務部要去偵辦調查局要去偵辦嘛那國安局作為同欄不同的機構部門情報部門的我們就是要事先來去做阻止它什麼叫事先阻止我們一直提到的安全查核也講了蠻多次的那好像行政院也有來跟我們討論說未來的立法方向"},{"start":564.212,"end":581.813,"text":"我是真的希望說再多參考一點啦因為時間不等人啦我們已經講了蠻久的這個我也不是我不是第一天來就說局長你這要負什麼什麼責任的不是嘛我不是這樣子的這已經過了一年多了那層出不窮這個單子不斷地在累積不過換另外一個角度跟委員說明的"},{"start":582.733,"end":611.092,"text":"會有這麼多的共諜案是因為我們在軍中官兵的保防意識真的是越來越高有很多共諜案大概有八成七都是由國軍官兵來檢舉的所以我們當然看到有很多的共諜案被偵破但另一方面顯示也是軍中的保防教育不斷的在提升我們才有這樣的偵辦的成果我們也希望是這樣就是很樂觀的看待但是對防範的部分要用最悲觀的角度去做那我當然"},{"start":612.641,"end":639.486,"text":"數目多不代表說我們國家安全狀況越來越嚴峻它可能代表說我們偵查的能量越來越強大都有可能但是但是這個平凡的程序這個涉及的這個離總統的乘風是越來越近那這個層級是越來越高那我有看到你們的報告你也從士官到軍官從現役到退役現役的比例是越來越高喔"},{"start":640.919,"end":648.093,"text":"這些都是你們的數據這個我是希望說大家加油一點好不好因為這個從內部瓦解是最容易的好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":436,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時28分）你好，請局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，陳委員早。"],["陳委員冠廷：局長早。局長，您就任到現在多久了？"],["蔡局長明彥：兩年多。"],["陳委員冠廷：局長，我們就不講這兩年，我們講這一年，從現在往前12個月到現在，跟國家相關的共諜案件，受社會矚目的案件大概有18個案件，每個月都有一個重大案件，所謂重大案件就是不管是我們的府院黨、不管是我們的陸海空、不管是我們的軍警憲，甚至包含情報部門，都有相關的洩密狀況。這個狀況我一直想請教，局長已經就任兩年多了，有沒有什麼精進的方法？因為如果是第一年的話，我們當然說那是過去的累積，我們沒辦法去做一些回應，但是已經就職兩年多的話，我可能就要具體請教局長，你們具體的方案是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：關於這部分，剛剛也有很多委員在關切，我們在偵辦這些共諜案來講，事實上不只是我們國安情報團隊，我們跟調查機關、跟檢方也都建立起非常密切地聯繫，希望透過共諜案的法律要件的建構，能夠讓它的成案率比較高。另外我們也跟院方，包括法官們及法官學院，針對共諜案的樣態來跟他們上課，所以我們希望做的是，情報機關、調查機關、檢察機關跟審理機關對於共諜案在審理上能夠有比較一致的看法。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝局長，你的說法非常好，就是我們要檢討，但我現在講的是責任的政治。總統府有憲兵跟警察洩密的狀況，就總統維安的部分，請問這個安全查核是由國安局負責的嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個部分當然國安局責無旁貸，因為國安局在負責總統維安，協勤單位包括總統府、特勤中心、國防部警衛大隊、各縣市警察局的警察同仁，還有憲指部的同仁都在裡面，加起來可能有幾十萬人，在安全查核上，我們當然會比較優先針對有涉及到比較機密、日常活動的部分來加強相關的查核。也跟委員說明，我知道委員辦公室也在關切這個問題，我們也跟委員辦公室有報告過，包括我們的儀測頻次已經越來越增加……"],["陳委員冠廷：總統府的憲兵指揮部211營的安全查核是由哪一個單位負責？"],["蔡局長明彥：應該是憲指部，因為指揮官也在，他們有一套查核的機制，我們這邊也會來協助，有必要來做一些督導時，我們會積極地來推辦。"],["陳委員冠廷：保六總隊第一警官大隊的安全查核是由哪一個單位來負責？"],["蔡局長明彥：各單位都有自己的安全查核……"],["陳委員冠廷：各單位都有自己的安全查核，但各單位都發生了重大情報洩漏的事件，關於各單位的懲處狀況，包含國安局，我希望局長可以把你們相關的懲處報告給我們一份。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，可以。"],["陳委員冠廷：因為責任政治是這樣子，不能夠重複地再犯一樣的錯誤，責任政治也是代表當你犯錯誤的時候，必須要有人負責，不見得一定要到最上層，但是直屬的必須要負責任，那才是一個精進的方式。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們會再提供。"],["陳委員冠廷：包含你們的懲處報告，我們都要看。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這部分……"],["陳委員冠廷：因為如果你們每次都用「這個是大家的責任、都有這樣子的問題、這個是中共的責任」這樣的說法，這當然是中共的責任啊！但是我們為了要保密、為了要確保國家安全能夠被守護住，當然也有行政的責任要一一地把懲處狀況做好。"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["陳委員冠廷：不然我們都不斷地在用這種官話把它帶過去，好像沒事一樣，都幾件了？府、院、黨全部都有，我們之前不是講過安全查核的問題嗎？我們現在不從法律上面來講，就從行政上面來講，我們今天講到國會助理，我記得我們之前也質詢過國會助理的查核部分，如果我們現在不是要用立法階段，我們今天就不談立法，因為立法的時序可能要很長，如果由國會辦公室本身行文，可不可以請國安局簡單地對我們的僱用人員做背景查核？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個可能在……"],["陳委員冠廷：主動、自願？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有、沒有，就政府機關這一部分的責任，應該是在法務部調查局。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以我們是不是可以請法務部調查局來協助我們做查核？"],["陳局長白立：委員好。跟委員報告，現在調查局執行安全查核是依照涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員特殊查核辦法，它是採正面表列，目前依照這個辦法，它正面表列了1,328項的職務是可以由我們來執行安全查核，但其中沒有包含到國會助理。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，我們知道沒有包含到國會助理，我現在想請教的是，如果由國會辦公室行文，因為涉及接觸國家安全相關的資料，主動希望調查局能夠協助我們做行政上面的安全查核，很簡單嘛！比方說，你就從出入境的狀況、有沒有違規、違紀的狀況，甚至是有沒有用藥或者是濫用酒精的狀況等等，這些都是在一般美國的一些基本上……"],["陳局長白立：是，我了解……"],["陳委員冠廷：可不可以？如果法令上沒有禁止的話。"],["陳局長白立：在執行上面沒有困難，但是在法規上面應該要完備，畢竟這個部分是當事人一個很私密的個人資料和隱私……"],["陳委員冠廷：對，我的意思是，如果他是為了要進入國會來參與相關的機密檔案，他可能會涉密，在這種狀況之下，行政上面是不是可以做到？"],["陳局長白立：在執行上，我們沒有困難。"],["陳委員冠廷：我知道執行沒有問題，我們現在要請教的是，這樣有沒有違反現今的法令，還是我們必須要立刻做修法？"],["陳局長白立：應該要修法。"],["陳委員冠廷：要用修法的方式去……"],["陳局長白立：對，應該要把這個人事行政總處主管的法令的查核範圍再擴大，當然我們很希望能夠有一個更安全的機制，不過如果法制上面能夠完整的話，其實這樣是會比較完善的。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以這個沒有辦法在行政上面直接做處理，而是需要從修法上面來處理？"],["陳局長白立：因為這涉及到被查核人的個人隱私及個人資料，這是一個很侵入性的作法，應該要有法令依據會比較完備，而且這個法令的修正不是那麼困難。"],["陳委員冠廷：OK，是不是可以麻煩法務部給我們你們建議的修法方向？"],["陳局長白立：是，可以。"],["陳委員冠廷：其實我們已經有提出相關的法案，我們希望是擴大辦理安全查核，但是具體的作法，因為法務部比較了解法律上面相關的程序，再麻煩！"],["陳局長白立：好，謝謝委員，這沒有問題。"],["陳委員冠廷：可不可以兩週內給我們一個修法的方向，讓我們可以納入參考？"],["陳局長白立：好，我們回去馬上研究，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。國安局局長，我們談這些的重點是，因為接觸到許多機敏文件的人不見得任職非常高官，他可能只是總統側近的人而已，所以為什麼安全查核必須要去徹底地執行？我剛剛問了那麼多責任，感覺上好像都有做，但是又好像都沒在做，就是你好像都有做，好像形式上流程都有完備，可是卻一再地發生這些問題，那是不是代表行政上面要做什麼修正？比方說，我們剛剛講到出入境，就像這次國會助理的狀況，還有新北市的前辦公室黨工的狀況，他是在國內交付的，變成這些國內交付資訊從一層再串成一層的話，那可能就不能夠只從出入境或是有沒有出境港澳去看而已，可能包含他在金融上面的狀況都要做查核，針對這個部分，不知道局長有什麼建議？因為我實在也沒有想出什麼方法。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，我跟委員說明，剛剛委員舉的案例是個案，因為在偵辦中，我不能談個案細節，但是就這一類共諜案的偵辦，我們偵辦的手法確實是還滿多元的，但因為它有涉及到我們不太適合揭露我們的偵辦手法而讓可能潛在的共諜會有一些防範的動作，所以請容許我們私下跟委員說明……"],["陳委員冠廷：沒關係，我們不用……除了偵辦之外，防範這個部分，我們講的這個東西就是防範，如果是偵辦的話，是法務部要去偵辦、調查局要去偵辦，國安局作為統攬各個不同機構部門、情報部門的單位，就是要事先阻止他，怎麼樣事先阻止呢？我們一直提到安全查核，也講了滿多次的，行政院也有來跟我們討論未來的立法方向，我是真的希望再多參考一點，因為時間不等人，我們已經講了滿久了。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，當然。"],["陳委員冠廷：我也不是第一天來就說，局長，你這要負什麼什麼責任。不是嘛！我不是這樣子的，是已經過了一年多，案子層出不窮，這個擔子不斷地在累積……"],["蔡局長明彥：不過換另外一個角度跟委員說明的是，會有這麼多共諜案也是因為軍中官兵的保防意識真的是越來越高，有很多的共諜案，大概有八成七都是由國軍官兵來檢舉的，當然我們看到有很多共諜案被偵破，但另一方面顯示軍中的保防教育不斷地在提升，我們才有這樣的偵辦成果。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們也希望是這樣子，可以很樂觀地看待，但是對防範的部分要用最悲觀的角度去做。"],["蔡局長明彥：當然，同意。"],["陳委員冠廷：當然數目多不代表我們國家安全的狀況越來越嚴峻，它可能代表我們偵查的能量越來越強大，都有可能，但是這個頻繁的次數，而且離總統層峰是越來越近，層級是越來越高。"],["蔡局長明彥：完全了解委員的……"],["陳委員冠廷：我有看到你們的報告，從士官到軍官，從現役到退役，現役的比例是越來越高喔！這些都是你們的數據，我是希望大家加油一點好不好？因為從內部瓦解是最容易的。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，當然。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員的上臺質詢。","接下來請馬文君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-6","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","馬文君","王定宇","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","沈伯洋","李坤城","王鴻薇","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00001"}}}