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786.422, \"end\": 786.702, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 786.702, \"end\": 787.183, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 787.183, \"end\": 787.403, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 787.403, \"end\": 787.563, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 787.563, \"end\": 787.743, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 787.743, \"end\": 787.884, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"致\", \"start\": 787.884, \"end\": 788.464, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 788.464, \"end\": 788.724, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 788.724, \"end\": 788.905, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 788.905, \"end\": 789.005, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 789.005, \"end\": 789.505, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 789.505, \"end\": 790.246, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 790.246, \"end\": 791.647, 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\"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"且\", \"start\": 799.255, \"end\": 799.415, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 799.415, \"end\": 799.956, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 799.956, \"end\": 800.957, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 800.957, \"end\": 801.137, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 801.137, \"end\": 801.257, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 801.257, \"end\": 801.337, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 801.337, \"end\": 801.678, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"派\", \"start\": 801.678, \"end\": 801.838, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 801.838, \"end\": 801.938, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 801.938, \"end\": 802.018, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 802.018, \"end\": 802.258, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"顏\"}, {\"word\": \"色\", \"start\": 802.258, \"end\": 802.379, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 802.379, \"end\": 802.399, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:01,910\n國安局蔡局長好謝主席王委員好局長好局長今天幾乎所有委員都有特別提到也關注到因為在我們的報告裡面也有提到就是說針對共諜的部分因為現在好像是過去沒有揭露還是現在越來越多\n\n2\n00:00:30,529 --> 00:00:50,498\n是兩個都有也就是說一方面是委員也不斷的在指導我們有一些共諜案的相關手法樣態應該要予以揭露讓我們的國人可以更知道相關滲透的手法那以便來強化我們防範共諜的一個社會的韌性那另外一方面是中共確實在對台的滲透上越來越積極\n\n3\n00:00:52,359 --> 00:01:07,311\n所以現在是越來越多的狀況那我想請教一下在報告裡面有提到2020年到現在目前為止我們共諜案起訴的人數大概159人嘛那是現役跟退役的軍人都有\n\n4\n00:01:08,112 --> 00:01:33,010\n而且占比高達60%當然跟他們的敏感性還有兩岸關係的緊張所以他們的身份可能也比較容易發生可是這些都是被有查出來的剛剛也提到因為顧部長還有局長剛剛也提到高達87%接近九成都是我們保防教育可能做得還不錯所以都是由軍中自己檢舉才發現的那這159人當中有多少人\n\n5\n00:01:38,410 --> 00:02:04,414\n判決確定定驗的那個過去五年剛剛有提到我們這邊所移送到國安團隊移送到檢查機關來進行審判偵辦的有159人被起訴那這大概佔了我們移送的人數的97%定驗的有多少定驗的是在過去五年有88個人有75個被定驗所以定驗率有85.23%\n\n6\n00:02:08,855 --> 00:02:30,925\n85.23你是說88個人88個人定驗可是你有159人沒有因為他那個涉及到他審判的審理的期程是很長的所以他大概這159人有多少你把詳細的數據給我們好不好沒有問題就是說有這樣的部分他大概判決確定最重判多久\n\n7\n00:02:31,896 --> 00:02:46,962\n最終判到20年有兩位最輕的咧最輕的可能一年的都有過去五年平均大概是四年七個月所以我們希望把相關的數據給我們就是你起訴了159位那現在已經定讞就是已經結束了你還沒有的大概有多少人把詳細的數據再給我們因為我們為什麼特別提出來是因為軍人在我們國家裡面尤其是現在其實他是非常重要的\n\n8\n00:02:59,847 --> 00:03:03,150\n可是我們不斷不斷不斷的提醒社會大眾我們的業務報告裡面也只提軍人說他們都很有可能是共諜其實這個會對我們整個社會的一個認知或者他的一個所有的一些都會造成觀感上面的影響\n\n9\n00:03:21,405 --> 00:03:43,401\n其實對於大家要不要再去當軍人其實這個也是一個很大的打擊我們來看看為什麼要特別提到因為你只提軍人每次好像會當逛蝶的也只有軍人沒有跟委員說明一下因為確實在比重上因為有現退役加起來有六成多比例確實很高而且它所凸顯的是中共對於我們國軍的滲透\n\n10\n00:03:45,382 --> 00:03:51,205\n我們知道可是如果是一個好的國安團隊你的面向應該要更廣更何況更何況我們最近才看到的就是在最近發生的包括立法院前院長尤其坤辦公室的助理盛楚英這個爆出淪為共諜的部分他不但\n\n11\n00:04:06,593 --> 00:04:15,579\n在立法院長的辦公室當助理因為他可以看到的可以知道的可以接觸到的機敏資料其實是非常多的接下來他還在很多我們委員裡面尤其是民進黨團內的很多立委他們也幾乎都是在國防外交委員會擔任委員的這樣子的助理\n\n12\n00:04:29,227 --> 00:04:47,959\n所以包括羅美玲委員郭育琴委員許智傑委員羅志正委員等等剛剛也有委員提到大也希望自己的助理是經過查核的可是這個困難點可能還是存在我們剛剛為什麼要特別提到這樣子你今天不是只有軍人你現在連立法院\n\n13\n00:04:48,499 --> 00:04:53,822\n立法院也不是只有國民黨的委員因為現在在罷免的過程當中通常都是指國民黨的委員就是中共同路人就是共匪就是共諜我們希望如果在社會的氛圍上面建立這樣子的意識形態其實對整個國家其實是不利的這個部分我們請國安團隊應該要更堅持\n\n14\n00:05:13,094 --> 00:05:36,395\n另外我還要提到就是說其實現在更恐怖的是在總統府裡面也發現了剛剛雖然他現在是已經在調查的階段所以不方便透露可是既然是在調查階段表示這是存在的事實那裡面他吸收的成績非常高他包括民進黨民主學院的這個副主任他也陪\n\n15\n00:05:37,436 --> 00:05:42,981\n賴副總統其實到訪過巴拉圭這是非常核心的人員才有辦法有的禮遇那還有包括總統他還擔任過總統府辦公室的姿意還有這個吳尚宇還有這個民進黨的這個\n\n16\n00:05:54,272 --> 00:06:07,918\n鯉魚點特助黃曲榮這些其實他們目前都被羈押當中我們現在特別要提到的是剛剛你們說在查核的部分或者他的範圍其實是有所不足的如果是這樣說\n\n17\n00:06:09,755 --> 00:06:30,506\n我想要請教局長因為在軍人的部分是由軍人的保防去負責他們的安全查核可是總統府是由我們國安單位那我們爆發出這樣的狀況局長你怎麼看那個總統府他還是一個獨立的行政機關那查核的部分不是由我這邊來那是由誰\n\n18\n00:06:33,228 --> 00:06:46,575\n這應該總統府他自己有他一套管理的機制所以他現在不足的部分是什麼因為顯然總統府發生這樣的事而且已經長達六年的時間那他不足的部分是什麼因為你們說要修法那如果要在修法的過程當中面對這樣的問題因為他們比這些軍人他們知道的會更多因為他們來\n\n19\n00:06:53,078 --> 00:07:01,125\n不是只有軍方的機敏資料而已他甚至全方位的包括我們的農業包括我們的聯繫症包括我們所有一切的一個佈置包括我們的基礎設施包括我們的政策等等其實他已經涵蓋是全面性的所以他可以看到的知道的會更多我們在這部分要怎麼加強因為你去審核查核助理一點意義都沒有他剛進來被你查核的時候他可能沒有問題\n\n20\n00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,265\n可是它是被吸收的為什麼會被吸收的人越來越多這個才是我們最大的隱憂就像駭客一樣嘛大家都知道我們突破了多少我們查到多少駭客的資料可是比較恐怖的是我們查不到的啊\n\n21\n00:07:34,901 --> 00:07:42,565\n他已經拿到多少資料或者他在什麼地方你根本不曉得那如果你們要在修法部分要去強化請告訴我們像類似這樣子的一個對象我們應該要怎麼去查核要怎麼修法方向應該怎麼做\n\n22\n00:07:50,689 --> 00:08:15,788\n對這大概有幾個部分一個部分是屬於人的核密的部分那這部分剛陳冠廷委員也在關切人的核密嘛密等那第二個是人核密之後它的揭密的分類的程度這是第二個部分第三個部分就是文書文件它的核密也很重要那就我們國安單位來講在這一部分我們大概都有一套人的核密以及那個揭密的管制以及文件的機密整齊的劃分\n\n23\n00:08:16,608 --> 00:08:23,192\n所以這個機制可能是有必要在各單位來更加強來建立起來因為你們已經有說過那表示現在總統府做得不好嘛因為這麼重要的可能各單位都可以來看這一方面有沒有更加強的地方所以當你們要修法的時候請注意不是無限的擴大然後不是把什麼里長啦宮廟啦什麼宗教啦或什麼全部統統要納入\n\n24\n00:08:39,181 --> 00:08:51,705\n可是獨獨漏了很重要的全方面可能可以掌握很多機敏資料的這些單位跟人員而且也許你們根本不敢查可是發生最嚴重的卻是他們這個部分我們還是如果你有我們同意如果在國安上面有漏洞的時候你怎麼樣去強化或者去修正我們都贊成可是不能變成是一個\n\n25\n00:09:07,049 --> 00:09:34,337\n在政治上面變成迫害的工具好不好我們沒有不敢查我跟委員說明一下我們是全面的清查那也沒有分黨派那才會有這些案子的出現好局長你剛剛提到說這些案子的出現我想請教一下就我剛剛提到的總統府啊或者民進黨的這些前副主任他們是被檢舉還是我們主動發言這是個案我不能在這邊討論你只說他是被檢舉或發生或是被沒有這都還是這幾個案情這位是是\n\n26\n00:09:36,138 --> 00:09:59,889\n那你像軍中的你們都可以說這個全部都是被檢舉的沒有沒有軍中的那是一個總數這個總數我們可以用總數來說明相關的趨勢但剛剛委員所提到的是個案的案情案況的內容這部分可能請容許委員我們有辦法公開討論局長為什麼這個很重要他如果說出被檢舉或者你們主動發現他對案情有什麼影響\n\n27\n00:10:01,534 --> 00:10:26,578\n現在主要是我們有什麼影響現在主要是他涉及到個案我們就是不適合討論我們沒有要討論啊我們是說行使訴訟法的規定嘛行使訴訟法的規定因為因為他是被檢舉的跟跟這是案情的一部分這是發現的這是案情一部分這是差很多因為最重要的是像通常我們很多政府單位如果接到很多民眾的陳情料拆違件啊或什麼其實很多也都是他們通常都說是檢舉的我不知道為什麼你們在這個部分認為說這個案情有\n\n28\n00:10:30,299 --> 00:10:35,723\n這是個案因為你現在發現這個是一個案子所以你把它當成個案可是未來如果它在很多周邊都發生的時候它就已經不是個案了我們希望國安局還是在這個部分其實要提出來如果這不是我們主動發現而是被檢舉的\n\n29\n00:10:50,774 --> 00:11:09,063\n他的差別在哪裡是我們連在總統府有這樣的人的存在而且已經長達六年我們都沒有發現這是非常恐怖的事情你如果是要靠檢舉我覺得這是非常恐怖的事情因為你根本沒有辦法可以注意到匪諜就在我們的總統府裡面這個部分我們要特別提醒謝謝委員的提醒謝謝\n\n30\n00:11:14,165 --> 00:11:29,485\n局長我在這裡可能也要提醒你一點因為剛剛我有看到那個在質詢的時候你沒有立場去要求我們的委員說他有各自的問題因為呢如果是公開的資訊我相信局長你沒有更為說明一下\n\n31\n00:11:31,721 --> 00:11:36,445\n你的本職本能他指稱的人是錯的他指稱的人是錯的錯的你應該跟他說是錯的可是不是告訴他說你這個有個資的問題因為我們一定來我們一定是搜尋公開的資訊或者有人提供資訊如果在這個部分應該局長的立場跟角色應該是你可以告訴他說那個是錯的而不是你去\n\n32\n00:11:57,762 --> 00:12:03,385\n指導委員說你這個有牽涉到各自的問題所以這個部分我們還是請局長在這個部分因為國安對我們全國民眾都非常重要尤其像這一次關稅的問題我們看看新加坡的總理\n\n33\n00:12:15,652 --> 00:12:18,515\n他告訴全國的民眾雖然新加坡只被剋了10%可是他跟全國的新加坡人民提到什麼我們可能現在處於不穩定的狀態我們可能會面臨戰爭戰爭會對我們有造成什麼樣的影響他是讓大家所有全民共同去面對而且\n\n34\n00:12:36,132 --> 00:13:04,221\n是很實際的狀況他才被扣10%而且新加坡算是一個比較穩定的國家他也沒有一些戰爭的風險可是他已經告訴全國人民我們在世界的局勢當中我們可能要面臨這樣的局勢那如果以台灣的狀況其實我們更險峻不管是經濟不管是地緣政治我們的風險都是最高所以我們希望我們要怎麼讓大家都可以一致面對我們\n\n35\n00:13:05,761 --> 00:13:22,399\n現在發生了困境我們大家一致對外好不好有請國安黨委我們從你的業務報告裡面我們希望看到的是希望我們的格局更高更遠更廣而且更國際化國安沒有分黨派沒有分顏色謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t1910\t國安局蔡局長好 謝主席 王委員好局長好 局長今天幾乎所有委員都有特別提到也關注到因為在我們的報告裡面也有提到就是說針對共諜的部分因為現在好像是過去沒有揭露還是現在越來越多\n30529\t50498\t是兩個都有也就是說一方面是委員也不斷的在指導我們有一些共諜案的相關手法樣態應該要予以揭露讓我們的國人可以更知道相關滲透的手法那以便來強化我們防範共諜的一個社會的韌性那另外一方面是中共確實在對台的滲透上越來越積極\n52359\t67311\t所以現在是越來越多的狀況那我想請教一下在報告裡面有提到2020年到現在目前為止我們共諜案起訴的人數大概159人嘛那是現役跟退役的軍人都有\n68112\t93010\t而且占比高達60%當然跟他們的敏感性還有兩岸關係的緊張所以他們的身份可能也比較容易發生可是這些都是被有查出來的剛剛也提到因為顧部長還有局長剛剛也提到高達87%接近九成都是我們保防教育可能做得還不錯所以都是由軍中自己檢舉才發現的那這159人當中有多少人\n98410\t124414\t判決確定定驗的那個過去五年剛剛有提到我們這邊所移送到國安團隊移送到檢查機關來進行審判偵辦的有159人被起訴那這大概佔了我們移送的人數的97%定驗的有多少定驗的是在過去五年有88個人有75個被定驗所以定驗率有85.23%\n128855\t150925\t85.23你是說88個人88個人定驗可是你有159人沒有因為他那個涉及到他審判的審理的期程是很長的所以他大概這159人有多少你把詳細的數據給我們好不好沒有問題就是說有這樣的部分他大概判決確定最重判多久\n151896\t166962\t最終判到20年有兩位最輕的咧最輕的可能一年的都有過去五年平均大概是四年七個月所以我們希望把相關的數據給我們就是你起訴了159位那現在已經定讞就是已經結束了你還沒有的大概有多少人把詳細的數據再給我們因為我們為什麼特別提出來是因為軍人在我們國家裡面尤其是現在其實他是非常重要的\n179847\t183150\t可是我們不斷不斷不斷的提醒社會大眾我們的業務報告裡面也只提軍人說他們都很有可能是共諜其實這個會對我們整個社會的一個認知或者他的一個所有的一些都會造成觀感上面的影響\n201405\t223401\t其實對於大家要不要再去當軍人 其實這個也是一個很大的打擊我們來看看為什麼要特別提到 因為你只提軍人每次好像會當逛蝶的也只有軍人沒有 跟委員說明一下 因為確實在比重上因為有現退役加起來有六成多 比例確實很高而且它所凸顯的是中共對於我們國軍的滲透\n225382\t231205\t我們知道可是如果是一個好的國安團隊你的面向應該要更廣更何況更何況我們最近才看到的就是在最近發生的包括立法院前院長尤其坤辦公室的助理盛楚英這個爆出淪為共諜的部分他不但\n246593\t255579\t在立法院長的辦公室當助理因為他可以看到的可以知道的可以接觸到的機敏資料其實是非常多的接下來他還在很多我們委員裡面尤其是民進黨團內的很多立委他們也幾乎都是在國防外交委員會擔任委員的這樣子的助理\n269227\t287959\t所以包括羅美玲委員 郭育琴委員許智傑委員 羅志正委員等等剛剛也有委員提到 大也希望自己的助理是經過查核的可是這個困難點可能還是存在我們剛剛為什麼要特別提到這樣子你今天不是只有軍人你現在連立法院\n288499\t293822\t立法院也不是只有國民黨的委員因為現在在罷免的過程當中通常都是指國民黨的委員就是中共同路人就是共匪就是共諜我們希望如果在社會的氛圍上面建立這樣子的意識形態其實對整個國家其實是不利的這個部分我們請國安團隊應該要更堅持\n313094\t336395\t另外我還要提到就是說其實現在更恐怖的是在總統府裡面也發現了剛剛雖然他現在是已經在調查的階段所以不方便透露可是既然是在調查階段表示這是存在的事實那裡面他吸收的成績非常高他包括民進黨民主學院的這個副主任他也陪\n337436\t342981\t賴副總統其實到訪過巴拉圭這是非常核心的人員才有辦法有的禮遇那還有包括總統他還擔任過總統府辦公室的姿意還有這個吳尚宇還有這個民進黨的這個\n354272\t367918\t鯉魚點特助黃曲榮這些其實他們目前都被羈押當中我們現在特別要提到的是剛剛你們說在查核的部分或者他的範圍其實是有所不足的如果是這樣說\n369755\t390506\t我想要請教局長因為在軍人的部分是由軍人的保防去負責他們的安全查核可是總統府是由我們國安單位那我們爆發出這樣的狀況局長你怎麼看那個總統府他還是一個獨立的行政機關那查核的部分不是由我這邊來那是由誰\n393228\t406575\t這應該總統府他自己有他一套管理的機制所以他現在不足的部分是什麼因為顯然總統府發生這樣的事而且已經長達六年的時間那他不足的部分是什麼因為你們說要修法那如果要在修法的過程當中面對這樣的問題因為他們比這些軍人他們知道的會更多因為他們來\n413078\t421125\t不是只有軍方的機敏資料而已他甚至全方位的包括我們的農業包括我們的聯繫症包括我們所有一切的一個佈置包括我們的基礎設施包括我們的政策等等其實他已經涵蓋是全面性的所以他可以看到的知道的會更多我們在這部分要怎麼加強因為你去審核查核助理一點意義都沒有他剛進來被你查核的時候他可能沒有問題\n439520\t443265\t可是它是被吸收的為什麼會被吸收的人越來越多這個才是我們最大的隱憂就像駭客一樣嘛大家都知道我們突破了多少我們查到多少駭客的資料可是比較恐怖的是我們查不到的啊\n454901\t462565\t他已經拿到多少資料或者他在什麼地方你根本不曉得那如果你們要在修法部分要去強化請告訴我們像類似這樣子的一個對象我們應該要怎麼去查核要怎麼修法方向應該怎麼做\n470689\t495788\t對 這大概有幾個部分一個部分是屬於人的核密的部分那這部分剛陳冠廷委員也在關切人的核密嘛 密等那第二個是人核密之後它的揭密的分類的程度這是第二個部分第三個部分就是文書文件它的核密也很重要那就我們國安單位來講在這一部分我們大概都有一套人的核密以及那個揭密的管制以及文件的機密整齊的劃分\n496608\t503192\t所以這個機制可能是有必要在各單位來更加強來建立起來因為你們已經有說過那表示現在總統府做得不好嘛因為這麼重要的可能各單位都可以來看這一方面有沒有更加強的地方所以當你們要修法的時候請注意不是無限的擴大然後不是把什麼里長啦宮廟啦什麼宗教啦或什麼全部統統要納入\n519181\t531705\t可是獨獨漏了很重要的全方面可能可以掌握很多機敏資料的這些單位跟人員而且也許你們根本不敢查可是發生最嚴重的卻是他們這個部分我們還是如果你有我們同意如果在國安上面有漏洞的時候你怎麼樣去強化或者去修正我們都贊成可是不能變成是一個\n547049\t574337\t在政治上面變成迫害的工具好不好我們沒有不敢查我跟委員說明一下我們是全面的清查那也沒有分黨派那才會有這些案子的出現好 局長你剛剛提到說這些案子的出現我想請教一下就我剛剛提到的總統府啊或者民進黨的這些前副主任他們是被檢舉還是我們主動發言這是個案我不能在這邊討論你只說他是被檢舉或發生或是被沒有這都還是這幾個案情這位是是\n576138\t599889\t那你像軍中的你們都可以說這個全部都是被檢舉的沒有沒有軍中的那是一個總數這個總數我們可以用總數來說明相關的趨勢但剛剛委員所提到的是個案的案情案況的內容這部分可能請容許委員我們有辦法公開討論局長為什麼這個很重要他如果說出被檢舉或者你們主動發現他對案情有什麼影響\n601534\t626578\t現在主要是我們有什麼影響現在主要是他涉及到個案我們就是不適合討論我們沒有要討論啊我們是說行使訴訟法的規定嘛行使訴訟法的規定因為因為他是被檢舉的跟跟這是案情的一部分這是發現的這是案情一部分這是差很多因為最重要的是像通常我們很多政府單位如果接到很多民眾的陳情料拆違件啊或什麼其實很多也都是他們通常都說是檢舉的我不知道為什麼你們在這個部分認為說這個案情有\n630299\t635723\t這是個案因為你現在發現這個是一個案子所以你把它當成個案可是未來如果它在很多周邊都發生的時候它就已經不是個案了我們希望國安局還是在這個部分其實要提出來如果這不是我們主動發現而是被檢舉的\n650774\t669063\t他的差別在哪裡是我們連在總統府有這樣的人的存在而且已經長達六年我們都沒有發現這是非常恐怖的事情你如果是要靠檢舉我覺得這是非常恐怖的事情因為你根本沒有辦法可以注意到匪諜就在我們的總統府裡面這個部分我們要特別提醒謝謝委員的提醒謝謝\n674165\t689485\t局長我在這裡可能也要提醒你一點因為剛剛我有看到那個在質詢的時候你沒有立場去要求我們的委員說他有各自的問題因為呢如果是公開的資訊我相信局長你沒有 更為說明一下\n691721\t696445\t你的本職本能他指稱的人是錯的他指稱的人是錯的錯的你應該跟他說是錯的可是不是告訴他說你這個有個資的問題因為我們一定來我們一定是搜尋公開的資訊或者有人提供資訊如果在這個部分應該局長的立場跟角色應該是你可以告訴他說那個是錯的而不是你去\n717762\t723385\t指導委員說你這個有牽涉到各自的問題所以這個部分我們還是請局長在這個部分因為國安對我們全國民眾都非常重要尤其像這一次關稅的問題我們看看新加坡的總理\n735652\t738515\t他告訴全國的民眾雖然新加坡只被剋了10%可是他跟全國的新加坡人民提到什麼我們可能現在處於不穩定的狀態我們可能會面臨戰爭戰爭會對我們有造成什麼樣的影響他是讓大家所有全民共同去面對而且\n756132\t784221\t是很實際的狀況他才被扣10%而且新加坡算是一個比較穩定的國家他也沒有一些戰爭的風險可是他已經告訴全國人民我們在世界的局勢當中我們可能要面臨這樣的局勢那如果以台灣的狀況其實我們更險峻不管是經濟不管是地緣政治我們的風險都是最高所以我們希望我們要怎麼讓大家都可以一致面對我們\n785761\t802399\t現在發生了困境 我們大家一致對外 好不好有請國安黨委 我們從你的業務報告裡面我們希望看到的是 希望我們的格局更高更遠 更廣 而且更國際化國安沒有分黨派 沒有分顏色 謝謝委員 謝謝\n","txt":"國安局蔡局長好 謝主席 王委員好局長好 局長今天幾乎所有委員都有特別提到也關注到因為在我們的報告裡面也有提到就是說針對共諜的部分因為現在好像是過去沒有揭露還是現在越來越多\n是兩個都有也就是說一方面是委員也不斷的在指導我們有一些共諜案的相關手法樣態應該要予以揭露讓我們的國人可以更知道相關滲透的手法那以便來強化我們防範共諜的一個社會的韌性那另外一方面是中共確實在對台的滲透上越來越積極\n所以現在是越來越多的狀況那我想請教一下在報告裡面有提到2020年到現在目前為止我們共諜案起訴的人數大概159人嘛那是現役跟退役的軍人都有\n而且占比高達60%當然跟他們的敏感性還有兩岸關係的緊張所以他們的身份可能也比較容易發生可是這些都是被有查出來的剛剛也提到因為顧部長還有局長剛剛也提到高達87%接近九成都是我們保防教育可能做得還不錯所以都是由軍中自己檢舉才發現的那這159人當中有多少人\n判決確定定驗的那個過去五年剛剛有提到我們這邊所移送到國安團隊移送到檢查機關來進行審判偵辦的有159人被起訴那這大概佔了我們移送的人數的97%定驗的有多少定驗的是在過去五年有88個人有75個被定驗所以定驗率有85.23%\n85.23你是說88個人88個人定驗可是你有159人沒有因為他那個涉及到他審判的審理的期程是很長的所以他大概這159人有多少你把詳細的數據給我們好不好沒有問題就是說有這樣的部分他大概判決確定最重判多久\n最終判到20年有兩位最輕的咧最輕的可能一年的都有過去五年平均大概是四年七個月所以我們希望把相關的數據給我們就是你起訴了159位那現在已經定讞就是已經結束了你還沒有的大概有多少人把詳細的數據再給我們因為我們為什麼特別提出來是因為軍人在我們國家裡面尤其是現在其實他是非常重要的\n可是我們不斷不斷不斷的提醒社會大眾我們的業務報告裡面也只提軍人說他們都很有可能是共諜其實這個會對我們整個社會的一個認知或者他的一個所有的一些都會造成觀感上面的影響\n其實對於大家要不要再去當軍人 其實這個也是一個很大的打擊我們來看看為什麼要特別提到 因為你只提軍人每次好像會當逛蝶的也只有軍人沒有 跟委員說明一下 因為確實在比重上因為有現退役加起來有六成多 比例確實很高而且它所凸顯的是中共對於我們國軍的滲透\n我們知道可是如果是一個好的國安團隊你的面向應該要更廣更何況更何況我們最近才看到的就是在最近發生的包括立法院前院長尤其坤辦公室的助理盛楚英這個爆出淪為共諜的部分他不但\n在立法院長的辦公室當助理因為他可以看到的可以知道的可以接觸到的機敏資料其實是非常多的接下來他還在很多我們委員裡面尤其是民進黨團內的很多立委他們也幾乎都是在國防外交委員會擔任委員的這樣子的助理\n所以包括羅美玲委員 郭育琴委員許智傑委員 羅志正委員等等剛剛也有委員提到 大也希望自己的助理是經過查核的可是這個困難點可能還是存在我們剛剛為什麼要特別提到這樣子你今天不是只有軍人你現在連立法院\n立法院也不是只有國民黨的委員因為現在在罷免的過程當中通常都是指國民黨的委員就是中共同路人就是共匪就是共諜我們希望如果在社會的氛圍上面建立這樣子的意識形態其實對整個國家其實是不利的這個部分我們請國安團隊應該要更堅持\n另外我還要提到就是說其實現在更恐怖的是在總統府裡面也發現了剛剛雖然他現在是已經在調查的階段所以不方便透露可是既然是在調查階段表示這是存在的事實那裡面他吸收的成績非常高他包括民進黨民主學院的這個副主任他也陪\n賴副總統其實到訪過巴拉圭這是非常核心的人員才有辦法有的禮遇那還有包括總統他還擔任過總統府辦公室的姿意還有這個吳尚宇還有這個民進黨的這個\n鯉魚點特助黃曲榮這些其實他們目前都被羈押當中我們現在特別要提到的是剛剛你們說在查核的部分或者他的範圍其實是有所不足的如果是這樣說\n我想要請教局長因為在軍人的部分是由軍人的保防去負責他們的安全查核可是總統府是由我們國安單位那我們爆發出這樣的狀況局長你怎麼看那個總統府他還是一個獨立的行政機關那查核的部分不是由我這邊來那是由誰\n這應該總統府他自己有他一套管理的機制所以他現在不足的部分是什麼因為顯然總統府發生這樣的事而且已經長達六年的時間那他不足的部分是什麼因為你們說要修法那如果要在修法的過程當中面對這樣的問題因為他們比這些軍人他們知道的會更多因為他們來\n不是只有軍方的機敏資料而已他甚至全方位的包括我們的農業包括我們的聯繫症包括我們所有一切的一個佈置包括我們的基礎設施包括我們的政策等等其實他已經涵蓋是全面性的所以他可以看到的知道的會更多我們在這部分要怎麼加強因為你去審核查核助理一點意義都沒有他剛進來被你查核的時候他可能沒有問題\n可是它是被吸收的為什麼會被吸收的人越來越多這個才是我們最大的隱憂就像駭客一樣嘛大家都知道我們突破了多少我們查到多少駭客的資料可是比較恐怖的是我們查不到的啊\n他已經拿到多少資料或者他在什麼地方你根本不曉得那如果你們要在修法部分要去強化請告訴我們像類似這樣子的一個對象我們應該要怎麼去查核要怎麼修法方向應該怎麼做\n對 這大概有幾個部分一個部分是屬於人的核密的部分那這部分剛陳冠廷委員也在關切人的核密嘛 密等那第二個是人核密之後它的揭密的分類的程度這是第二個部分第三個部分就是文書文件它的核密也很重要那就我們國安單位來講在這一部分我們大概都有一套人的核密以及那個揭密的管制以及文件的機密整齊的劃分\n所以這個機制可能是有必要在各單位來更加強來建立起來因為你們已經有說過那表示現在總統府做得不好嘛因為這麼重要的可能各單位都可以來看這一方面有沒有更加強的地方所以當你們要修法的時候請注意不是無限的擴大然後不是把什麼里長啦宮廟啦什麼宗教啦或什麼全部統統要納入\n可是獨獨漏了很重要的全方面可能可以掌握很多機敏資料的這些單位跟人員而且也許你們根本不敢查可是發生最嚴重的卻是他們這個部分我們還是如果你有我們同意如果在國安上面有漏洞的時候你怎麼樣去強化或者去修正我們都贊成可是不能變成是一個\n在政治上面變成迫害的工具好不好我們沒有不敢查我跟委員說明一下我們是全面的清查那也沒有分黨派那才會有這些案子的出現好 局長你剛剛提到說這些案子的出現我想請教一下就我剛剛提到的總統府啊或者民進黨的這些前副主任他們是被檢舉還是我們主動發言這是個案我不能在這邊討論你只說他是被檢舉或發生或是被沒有這都還是這幾個案情這位是是\n那你像軍中的你們都可以說這個全部都是被檢舉的沒有沒有軍中的那是一個總數這個總數我們可以用總數來說明相關的趨勢但剛剛委員所提到的是個案的案情案況的內容這部分可能請容許委員我們有辦法公開討論局長為什麼這個很重要他如果說出被檢舉或者你們主動發現他對案情有什麼影響\n現在主要是我們有什麼影響現在主要是他涉及到個案我們就是不適合討論我們沒有要討論啊我們是說行使訴訟法的規定嘛行使訴訟法的規定因為因為他是被檢舉的跟跟這是案情的一部分這是發現的這是案情一部分這是差很多因為最重要的是像通常我們很多政府單位如果接到很多民眾的陳情料拆違件啊或什麼其實很多也都是他們通常都說是檢舉的我不知道為什麼你們在這個部分認為說這個案情有\n這是個案因為你現在發現這個是一個案子所以你把它當成個案可是未來如果它在很多周邊都發生的時候它就已經不是個案了我們希望國安局還是在這個部分其實要提出來如果這不是我們主動發現而是被檢舉的\n他的差別在哪裡是我們連在總統府有這樣的人的存在而且已經長達六年我們都沒有發現這是非常恐怖的事情你如果是要靠檢舉我覺得這是非常恐怖的事情因為你根本沒有辦法可以注意到匪諜就在我們的總統府裡面這個部分我們要特別提醒謝謝委員的提醒謝謝\n局長我在這裡可能也要提醒你一點因為剛剛我有看到那個在質詢的時候你沒有立場去要求我們的委員說他有各自的問題因為呢如果是公開的資訊我相信局長你沒有 更為說明一下\n你的本職本能他指稱的人是錯的他指稱的人是錯的錯的你應該跟他說是錯的可是不是告訴他說你這個有個資的問題因為我們一定來我們一定是搜尋公開的資訊或者有人提供資訊如果在這個部分應該局長的立場跟角色應該是你可以告訴他說那個是錯的而不是你去\n指導委員說你這個有牽涉到各自的問題所以這個部分我們還是請局長在這個部分因為國安對我們全國民眾都非常重要尤其像這一次關稅的問題我們看看新加坡的總理\n他告訴全國的民眾雖然新加坡只被剋了10%可是他跟全國的新加坡人民提到什麼我們可能現在處於不穩定的狀態我們可能會面臨戰爭戰爭會對我們有造成什麼樣的影響他是讓大家所有全民共同去面對而且\n是很實際的狀況他才被扣10%而且新加坡算是一個比較穩定的國家他也沒有一些戰爭的風險可是他已經告訴全國人民我們在世界的局勢當中我們可能要面臨這樣的局勢那如果以台灣的狀況其實我們更險峻不管是經濟不管是地緣政治我們的風險都是最高所以我們希望我們要怎麼讓大家都可以一致面對我們\n現在發生了困境 我們大家一致對外 好不好有請國安黨委 我們從你的業務報告裡面我們希望看到的是 希望我們的格局更高更遠 更廣 而且更國際化國安沒有分黨派 沒有分顏色 謝謝委員 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:01.910\n國安局蔡局長好謝主席王委員好局長好局長今天幾乎所有委員都有特別提到也關注到因為在我們的報告裡面也有提到就是說針對共諜的部分因為現在好像是過去沒有揭露還是現在越來越多\n\n00:30.529 --> 00:50.498\n是兩個都有也就是說一方面是委員也不斷的在指導我們有一些共諜案的相關手法樣態應該要予以揭露讓我們的國人可以更知道相關滲透的手法那以便來強化我們防範共諜的一個社會的韌性那另外一方面是中共確實在對台的滲透上越來越積極\n\n00:52.359 --> 01:07.311\n所以現在是越來越多的狀況那我想請教一下在報告裡面有提到2020年到現在目前為止我們共諜案起訴的人數大概159人嘛那是現役跟退役的軍人都有\n\n01:08.112 --> 01:33.010\n而且占比高達60%當然跟他們的敏感性還有兩岸關係的緊張所以他們的身份可能也比較容易發生可是這些都是被有查出來的剛剛也提到因為顧部長還有局長剛剛也提到高達87%接近九成都是我們保防教育可能做得還不錯所以都是由軍中自己檢舉才發現的那這159人當中有多少人\n\n01:38.410 --> 02:04.414\n判決確定定驗的那個過去五年剛剛有提到我們這邊所移送到國安團隊移送到檢查機關來進行審判偵辦的有159人被起訴那這大概佔了我們移送的人數的97%定驗的有多少定驗的是在過去五年有88個人有75個被定驗所以定驗率有85.23%\n\n02:08.855 --> 02:30.925\n85.23你是說88個人88個人定驗可是你有159人沒有因為他那個涉及到他審判的審理的期程是很長的所以他大概這159人有多少你把詳細的數據給我們好不好沒有問題就是說有這樣的部分他大概判決確定最重判多久\n\n02:31.896 --> 02:46.962\n最終判到20年有兩位最輕的咧最輕的可能一年的都有過去五年平均大概是四年七個月所以我們希望把相關的數據給我們就是你起訴了159位那現在已經定讞就是已經結束了你還沒有的大概有多少人把詳細的數據再給我們因為我們為什麼特別提出來是因為軍人在我們國家裡面尤其是現在其實他是非常重要的\n\n02:59.847 --> 03:03.150\n可是我們不斷不斷不斷的提醒社會大眾我們的業務報告裡面也只提軍人說他們都很有可能是共諜其實這個會對我們整個社會的一個認知或者他的一個所有的一些都會造成觀感上面的影響\n\n03:21.405 --> 03:43.401\n其實對於大家要不要再去當軍人其實這個也是一個很大的打擊我們來看看為什麼要特別提到因為你只提軍人每次好像會當逛蝶的也只有軍人沒有跟委員說明一下因為確實在比重上因為有現退役加起來有六成多比例確實很高而且它所凸顯的是中共對於我們國軍的滲透\n\n03:45.382 --> 03:51.205\n我們知道可是如果是一個好的國安團隊你的面向應該要更廣更何況更何況我們最近才看到的就是在最近發生的包括立法院前院長尤其坤辦公室的助理盛楚英這個爆出淪為共諜的部分他不但\n\n04:06.593 --> 04:15.579\n在立法院長的辦公室當助理因為他可以看到的可以知道的可以接觸到的機敏資料其實是非常多的接下來他還在很多我們委員裡面尤其是民進黨團內的很多立委他們也幾乎都是在國防外交委員會擔任委員的這樣子的助理\n\n04:29.227 --> 04:47.959\n所以包括羅美玲委員郭育琴委員許智傑委員羅志正委員等等剛剛也有委員提到大也希望自己的助理是經過查核的可是這個困難點可能還是存在我們剛剛為什麼要特別提到這樣子你今天不是只有軍人你現在連立法院\n\n04:48.499 --> 04:53.822\n立法院也不是只有國民黨的委員因為現在在罷免的過程當中通常都是指國民黨的委員就是中共同路人就是共匪就是共諜我們希望如果在社會的氛圍上面建立這樣子的意識形態其實對整個國家其實是不利的這個部分我們請國安團隊應該要更堅持\n\n05:13.094 --> 05:36.395\n另外我還要提到就是說其實現在更恐怖的是在總統府裡面也發現了剛剛雖然他現在是已經在調查的階段所以不方便透露可是既然是在調查階段表示這是存在的事實那裡面他吸收的成績非常高他包括民進黨民主學院的這個副主任他也陪\n\n05:37.436 --> 05:42.981\n賴副總統其實到訪過巴拉圭這是非常核心的人員才有辦法有的禮遇那還有包括總統他還擔任過總統府辦公室的姿意還有這個吳尚宇還有這個民進黨的這個\n\n05:54.272 --> 06:07.918\n鯉魚點特助黃曲榮這些其實他們目前都被羈押當中我們現在特別要提到的是剛剛你們說在查核的部分或者他的範圍其實是有所不足的如果是這樣說\n\n06:09.755 --> 06:30.506\n我想要請教局長因為在軍人的部分是由軍人的保防去負責他們的安全查核可是總統府是由我們國安單位那我們爆發出這樣的狀況局長你怎麼看那個總統府他還是一個獨立的行政機關那查核的部分不是由我這邊來那是由誰\n\n06:33.228 --> 06:46.575\n這應該總統府他自己有他一套管理的機制所以他現在不足的部分是什麼因為顯然總統府發生這樣的事而且已經長達六年的時間那他不足的部分是什麼因為你們說要修法那如果要在修法的過程當中面對這樣的問題因為他們比這些軍人他們知道的會更多因為他們來\n\n06:53.078 --> 07:01.125\n不是只有軍方的機敏資料而已他甚至全方位的包括我們的農業包括我們的聯繫症包括我們所有一切的一個佈置包括我們的基礎設施包括我們的政策等等其實他已經涵蓋是全面性的所以他可以看到的知道的會更多我們在這部分要怎麼加強因為你去審核查核助理一點意義都沒有他剛進來被你查核的時候他可能沒有問題\n\n07:19.520 --> 07:23.265\n可是它是被吸收的為什麼會被吸收的人越來越多這個才是我們最大的隱憂就像駭客一樣嘛大家都知道我們突破了多少我們查到多少駭客的資料可是比較恐怖的是我們查不到的啊\n\n07:34.901 --> 07:42.565\n他已經拿到多少資料或者他在什麼地方你根本不曉得那如果你們要在修法部分要去強化請告訴我們像類似這樣子的一個對象我們應該要怎麼去查核要怎麼修法方向應該怎麼做\n\n07:50.689 --> 08:15.788\n對這大概有幾個部分一個部分是屬於人的核密的部分那這部分剛陳冠廷委員也在關切人的核密嘛密等那第二個是人核密之後它的揭密的分類的程度這是第二個部分第三個部分就是文書文件它的核密也很重要那就我們國安單位來講在這一部分我們大概都有一套人的核密以及那個揭密的管制以及文件的機密整齊的劃分\n\n08:16.608 --> 08:23.192\n所以這個機制可能是有必要在各單位來更加強來建立起來因為你們已經有說過那表示現在總統府做得不好嘛因為這麼重要的可能各單位都可以來看這一方面有沒有更加強的地方所以當你們要修法的時候請注意不是無限的擴大然後不是把什麼里長啦宮廟啦什麼宗教啦或什麼全部統統要納入\n\n08:39.181 --> 08:51.705\n可是獨獨漏了很重要的全方面可能可以掌握很多機敏資料的這些單位跟人員而且也許你們根本不敢查可是發生最嚴重的卻是他們這個部分我們還是如果你有我們同意如果在國安上面有漏洞的時候你怎麼樣去強化或者去修正我們都贊成可是不能變成是一個\n\n09:07.049 --> 09:34.337\n在政治上面變成迫害的工具好不好我們沒有不敢查我跟委員說明一下我們是全面的清查那也沒有分黨派那才會有這些案子的出現好局長你剛剛提到說這些案子的出現我想請教一下就我剛剛提到的總統府啊或者民進黨的這些前副主任他們是被檢舉還是我們主動發言這是個案我不能在這邊討論你只說他是被檢舉或發生或是被沒有這都還是這幾個案情這位是是\n\n09:36.138 --> 09:59.889\n那你像軍中的你們都可以說這個全部都是被檢舉的沒有沒有軍中的那是一個總數這個總數我們可以用總數來說明相關的趨勢但剛剛委員所提到的是個案的案情案況的內容這部分可能請容許委員我們有辦法公開討論局長為什麼這個很重要他如果說出被檢舉或者你們主動發現他對案情有什麼影響\n\n10:01.534 --> 10:26.578\n現在主要是我們有什麼影響現在主要是他涉及到個案我們就是不適合討論我們沒有要討論啊我們是說行使訴訟法的規定嘛行使訴訟法的規定因為因為他是被檢舉的跟跟這是案情的一部分這是發現的這是案情一部分這是差很多因為最重要的是像通常我們很多政府單位如果接到很多民眾的陳情料拆違件啊或什麼其實很多也都是他們通常都說是檢舉的我不知道為什麼你們在這個部分認為說這個案情有\n\n10:30.299 --> 10:35.723\n這是個案因為你現在發現這個是一個案子所以你把它當成個案可是未來如果它在很多周邊都發生的時候它就已經不是個案了我們希望國安局還是在這個部分其實要提出來如果這不是我們主動發現而是被檢舉的\n\n10:50.774 --> 11:09.063\n他的差別在哪裡是我們連在總統府有這樣的人的存在而且已經長達六年我們都沒有發現這是非常恐怖的事情你如果是要靠檢舉我覺得這是非常恐怖的事情因為你根本沒有辦法可以注意到匪諜就在我們的總統府裡面這個部分我們要特別提醒謝謝委員的提醒謝謝\n\n11:14.165 --> 11:29.485\n局長我在這裡可能也要提醒你一點因為剛剛我有看到那個在質詢的時候你沒有立場去要求我們的委員說他有各自的問題因為呢如果是公開的資訊我相信局長你沒有更為說明一下\n\n11:31.721 --> 11:36.445\n你的本職本能他指稱的人是錯的他指稱的人是錯的錯的你應該跟他說是錯的可是不是告訴他說你這個有個資的問題因為我們一定來我們一定是搜尋公開的資訊或者有人提供資訊如果在這個部分應該局長的立場跟角色應該是你可以告訴他說那個是錯的而不是你去\n\n11:57.762 --> 12:03.385\n指導委員說你這個有牽涉到各自的問題所以這個部分我們還是請局長在這個部分因為國安對我們全國民眾都非常重要尤其像這一次關稅的問題我們看看新加坡的總理\n\n12:15.652 --> 12:18.515\n他告訴全國的民眾雖然新加坡只被剋了10%可是他跟全國的新加坡人民提到什麼我們可能現在處於不穩定的狀態我們可能會面臨戰爭戰爭會對我們有造成什麼樣的影響他是讓大家所有全民共同去面對而且\n\n12:36.132 --> 13:04.221\n是很實際的狀況他才被扣10%而且新加坡算是一個比較穩定的國家他也沒有一些戰爭的風險可是他已經告訴全國人民我們在世界的局勢當中我們可能要面臨這樣的局勢那如果以台灣的狀況其實我們更險峻不管是經濟不管是地緣政治我們的風險都是最高所以我們希望我們要怎麼讓大家都可以一致面對我們\n\n13:05.761 --> 13:22.399\n現在發生了困境我們大家一致對外好不好有請國安黨委我們從你的業務報告裡面我們希望看到的是希望我們的格局更高更遠更廣而且更國際化國安沒有分黨派沒有分顏色謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.91,"text":"國安局蔡局長好 謝主席 王委員好局長好 局長今天幾乎所有委員都有特別提到也關注到因為在我們的報告裡面也有提到就是說針對共諜的部分因為現在好像是過去沒有揭露還是現在越來越多"},{"start":30.529,"end":50.498,"text":"是兩個都有也就是說一方面是委員也不斷的在指導我們有一些共諜案的相關手法樣態應該要予以揭露讓我們的國人可以更知道相關滲透的手法那以便來強化我們防範共諜的一個社會的韌性那另外一方面是中共確實在對台的滲透上越來越積極"},{"start":52.359,"end":67.311,"text":"所以現在是越來越多的狀況那我想請教一下在報告裡面有提到2020年到現在目前為止我們共諜案起訴的人數大概159人嘛那是現役跟退役的軍人都有"},{"start":68.112,"end":93.01,"text":"而且占比高達60%當然跟他們的敏感性還有兩岸關係的緊張所以他們的身份可能也比較容易發生可是這些都是被有查出來的剛剛也提到因為顧部長還有局長剛剛也提到高達87%接近九成都是我們保防教育可能做得還不錯所以都是由軍中自己檢舉才發現的那這159人當中有多少人"},{"start":98.41,"end":124.414,"text":"判決確定定驗的那個過去五年剛剛有提到我們這邊所移送到國安團隊移送到檢查機關來進行審判偵辦的有159人被起訴那這大概佔了我們移送的人數的97%定驗的有多少定驗的是在過去五年有88個人有75個被定驗所以定驗率有85.23%"},{"start":128.855,"end":150.925,"text":"85.23你是說88個人88個人定驗可是你有159人沒有因為他那個涉及到他審判的審理的期程是很長的所以他大概這159人有多少你把詳細的數據給我們好不好沒有問題就是說有這樣的部分他大概判決確定最重判多久"},{"start":151.896,"end":166.962,"text":"最終判到20年有兩位最輕的咧最輕的可能一年的都有過去五年平均大概是四年七個月所以我們希望把相關的數據給我們就是你起訴了159位那現在已經定讞就是已經結束了你還沒有的大概有多少人把詳細的數據再給我們因為我們為什麼特別提出來是因為軍人在我們國家裡面尤其是現在其實他是非常重要的"},{"start":179.847,"end":183.15,"text":"可是我們不斷不斷不斷的提醒社會大眾我們的業務報告裡面也只提軍人說他們都很有可能是共諜其實這個會對我們整個社會的一個認知或者他的一個所有的一些都會造成觀感上面的影響"},{"start":201.405,"end":223.401,"text":"其實對於大家要不要再去當軍人 其實這個也是一個很大的打擊我們來看看為什麼要特別提到 因為你只提軍人每次好像會當逛蝶的也只有軍人沒有 跟委員說明一下 因為確實在比重上因為有現退役加起來有六成多 比例確實很高而且它所凸顯的是中共對於我們國軍的滲透"},{"start":225.382,"end":231.205,"text":"我們知道可是如果是一個好的國安團隊你的面向應該要更廣更何況更何況我們最近才看到的就是在最近發生的包括立法院前院長尤其坤辦公室的助理盛楚英這個爆出淪為共諜的部分他不但"},{"start":246.593,"end":255.579,"text":"在立法院長的辦公室當助理因為他可以看到的可以知道的可以接觸到的機敏資料其實是非常多的接下來他還在很多我們委員裡面尤其是民進黨團內的很多立委他們也幾乎都是在國防外交委員會擔任委員的這樣子的助理"},{"start":269.227,"end":287.959,"text":"所以包括羅美玲委員 郭育琴委員許智傑委員 羅志正委員等等剛剛也有委員提到 大也希望自己的助理是經過查核的可是這個困難點可能還是存在我們剛剛為什麼要特別提到這樣子你今天不是只有軍人你現在連立法院"},{"start":288.499,"end":293.822,"text":"立法院也不是只有國民黨的委員因為現在在罷免的過程當中通常都是指國民黨的委員就是中共同路人就是共匪就是共諜我們希望如果在社會的氛圍上面建立這樣子的意識形態其實對整個國家其實是不利的這個部分我們請國安團隊應該要更堅持"},{"start":313.094,"end":336.395,"text":"另外我還要提到就是說其實現在更恐怖的是在總統府裡面也發現了剛剛雖然他現在是已經在調查的階段所以不方便透露可是既然是在調查階段表示這是存在的事實那裡面他吸收的成績非常高他包括民進黨民主學院的這個副主任他也陪"},{"start":337.436,"end":342.981,"text":"賴副總統其實到訪過巴拉圭這是非常核心的人員才有辦法有的禮遇那還有包括總統他還擔任過總統府辦公室的姿意還有這個吳尚宇還有這個民進黨的這個"},{"start":354.272,"end":367.918,"text":"鯉魚點特助黃曲榮這些其實他們目前都被羈押當中我們現在特別要提到的是剛剛你們說在查核的部分或者他的範圍其實是有所不足的如果是這樣說"},{"start":369.755,"end":390.506,"text":"我想要請教局長因為在軍人的部分是由軍人的保防去負責他們的安全查核可是總統府是由我們國安單位那我們爆發出這樣的狀況局長你怎麼看那個總統府他還是一個獨立的行政機關那查核的部分不是由我這邊來那是由誰"},{"start":393.228,"end":406.575,"text":"這應該總統府他自己有他一套管理的機制所以他現在不足的部分是什麼因為顯然總統府發生這樣的事而且已經長達六年的時間那他不足的部分是什麼因為你們說要修法那如果要在修法的過程當中面對這樣的問題因為他們比這些軍人他們知道的會更多因為他們來"},{"start":413.078,"end":421.125,"text":"不是只有軍方的機敏資料而已他甚至全方位的包括我們的農業包括我們的聯繫症包括我們所有一切的一個佈置包括我們的基礎設施包括我們的政策等等其實他已經涵蓋是全面性的所以他可以看到的知道的會更多我們在這部分要怎麼加強因為你去審核查核助理一點意義都沒有他剛進來被你查核的時候他可能沒有問題"},{"start":439.52,"end":443.265,"text":"可是它是被吸收的為什麼會被吸收的人越來越多這個才是我們最大的隱憂就像駭客一樣嘛大家都知道我們突破了多少我們查到多少駭客的資料可是比較恐怖的是我們查不到的啊"},{"start":454.901,"end":462.565,"text":"他已經拿到多少資料或者他在什麼地方你根本不曉得那如果你們要在修法部分要去強化請告訴我們像類似這樣子的一個對象我們應該要怎麼去查核要怎麼修法方向應該怎麼做"},{"start":470.689,"end":495.788,"text":"對 這大概有幾個部分一個部分是屬於人的核密的部分那這部分剛陳冠廷委員也在關切人的核密嘛 密等那第二個是人核密之後它的揭密的分類的程度這是第二個部分第三個部分就是文書文件它的核密也很重要那就我們國安單位來講在這一部分我們大概都有一套人的核密以及那個揭密的管制以及文件的機密整齊的劃分"},{"start":496.608,"end":503.192,"text":"所以這個機制可能是有必要在各單位來更加強來建立起來因為你們已經有說過那表示現在總統府做得不好嘛因為這麼重要的可能各單位都可以來看這一方面有沒有更加強的地方所以當你們要修法的時候請注意不是無限的擴大然後不是把什麼里長啦宮廟啦什麼宗教啦或什麼全部統統要納入"},{"start":519.181,"end":531.705,"text":"可是獨獨漏了很重要的全方面可能可以掌握很多機敏資料的這些單位跟人員而且也許你們根本不敢查可是發生最嚴重的卻是他們這個部分我們還是如果你有我們同意如果在國安上面有漏洞的時候你怎麼樣去強化或者去修正我們都贊成可是不能變成是一個"},{"start":547.049,"end":574.337,"text":"在政治上面變成迫害的工具好不好我們沒有不敢查我跟委員說明一下我們是全面的清查那也沒有分黨派那才會有這些案子的出現好 局長你剛剛提到說這些案子的出現我想請教一下就我剛剛提到的總統府啊或者民進黨的這些前副主任他們是被檢舉還是我們主動發言這是個案我不能在這邊討論你只說他是被檢舉或發生或是被沒有這都還是這幾個案情這位是是"},{"start":576.138,"end":599.889,"text":"那你像軍中的你們都可以說這個全部都是被檢舉的沒有沒有軍中的那是一個總數這個總數我們可以用總數來說明相關的趨勢但剛剛委員所提到的是個案的案情案況的內容這部分可能請容許委員我們有辦法公開討論局長為什麼這個很重要他如果說出被檢舉或者你們主動發現他對案情有什麼影響"},{"start":601.534,"end":626.578,"text":"現在主要是我們有什麼影響現在主要是他涉及到個案我們就是不適合討論我們沒有要討論啊我們是說行使訴訟法的規定嘛行使訴訟法的規定因為因為他是被檢舉的跟跟這是案情的一部分這是發現的這是案情一部分這是差很多因為最重要的是像通常我們很多政府單位如果接到很多民眾的陳情料拆違件啊或什麼其實很多也都是他們通常都說是檢舉的我不知道為什麼你們在這個部分認為說這個案情有"},{"start":630.299,"end":635.723,"text":"這是個案因為你現在發現這個是一個案子所以你把它當成個案可是未來如果它在很多周邊都發生的時候它就已經不是個案了我們希望國安局還是在這個部分其實要提出來如果這不是我們主動發現而是被檢舉的"},{"start":650.774,"end":669.063,"text":"他的差別在哪裡是我們連在總統府有這樣的人的存在而且已經長達六年我們都沒有發現這是非常恐怖的事情你如果是要靠檢舉我覺得這是非常恐怖的事情因為你根本沒有辦法可以注意到匪諜就在我們的總統府裡面這個部分我們要特別提醒謝謝委員的提醒謝謝"},{"start":674.165,"end":689.485,"text":"局長我在這裡可能也要提醒你一點因為剛剛我有看到那個在質詢的時候你沒有立場去要求我們的委員說他有各自的問題因為呢如果是公開的資訊我相信局長你沒有 更為說明一下"},{"start":691.721,"end":696.445,"text":"你的本職本能他指稱的人是錯的他指稱的人是錯的錯的你應該跟他說是錯的可是不是告訴他說你這個有個資的問題因為我們一定來我們一定是搜尋公開的資訊或者有人提供資訊如果在這個部分應該局長的立場跟角色應該是你可以告訴他說那個是錯的而不是你去"},{"start":717.762,"end":723.385,"text":"指導委員說你這個有牽涉到各自的問題所以這個部分我們還是請局長在這個部分因為國安對我們全國民眾都非常重要尤其像這一次關稅的問題我們看看新加坡的總理"},{"start":735.652,"end":738.515,"text":"他告訴全國的民眾雖然新加坡只被剋了10%可是他跟全國的新加坡人民提到什麼我們可能現在處於不穩定的狀態我們可能會面臨戰爭戰爭會對我們有造成什麼樣的影響他是讓大家所有全民共同去面對而且"},{"start":756.132,"end":784.221,"text":"是很實際的狀況他才被扣10%而且新加坡算是一個比較穩定的國家他也沒有一些戰爭的風險可是他已經告訴全國人民我們在世界的局勢當中我們可能要面臨這樣的局勢那如果以台灣的狀況其實我們更險峻不管是經濟不管是地緣政治我們的風險都是最高所以我們希望我們要怎麼讓大家都可以一致面對我們"},{"start":785.761,"end":802.399,"text":"現在發生了困境 我們大家一致對外 好不好有請國安黨委 我們從你的業務報告裡面我們希望看到的是 希望我們的格局更高更遠 更廣 而且更國際化國安沒有分黨派 沒有分顏色 謝謝委員 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":496,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時39分）謝謝主席，麻煩請國安局蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：局長好。今天幾乎所有委員都特別提到也關注到，你們的報告裡面也有提到，就是針對共諜的部分，是過去沒有揭露，還是現在越來越多？"],["蔡局長明彥：兩個都有，也就是一方面是委員不斷地在指導我們，一些共諜案的相關手法、樣態應該要予以揭露，讓國人可以更知道相關滲透的手法，以便強化我們防範共諜的社會韌性。另外一方面是中共確實在對臺的滲透上越來越積極，一方面有……"],["馬委員文君：所以現在是越來越多的狀況？"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["馬委員文君：我想請教一下，報告裡面有提到從2020年到目前為止，共諜案起訴的人數大概159人，現役跟退役的軍人都有，而且占比高達60%，因為他們的敏感性還有兩岸關係緊張，他們的身分可能比較容易發生，可是這些都是有被查出來的。局長剛剛也提到高達87%、接近九成可能是我們的保防教育做得還不錯，所以都是由軍中自己檢舉才發現的。這159人當中，有多少人判決確定定讞？"],["蔡局長明彥：剛剛有提到過去5年國安團隊移送到檢察機關進行審判、偵辦的有159人被起訴，這大概占了移送人數的97%，所以起訴率……"],["馬委員文君：定讞的有多少？"],["蔡局長明彥：過去5年有88個人被定讞，所以定讞率有85.23%。"],["馬委員文君：你是說88個人？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["馬委員文君：88個人定讞，可是總共有159人。"],["蔡局長明彥：因為審理的期程很長。"],["馬委員文君：這159人有多少被定讞？你把詳細的數據給我們，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒問題。"],["馬委員文君：就是有這樣的部分，判決確定最重判多久？"],["蔡局長明彥：最重判到20年，有兩位。"],["馬委員文君：最輕的呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：最輕可能1年的都有，過去5年平均大概是4年7個月。"],["馬委員文君：我們希望把相關數據給我們，就是起訴了159位，現在已經定讞、已經結束的以及還沒有的大概有多少人，把詳細的數據再給我們。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，沒問題。"],["馬委員文君：我們為什麼特別提出來？因為軍人在我們國家裡面，尤其現在是非常重要的，可是你們不斷提醒社會大眾，而你們的業務報告裡面也只提軍人，說他們都很有可能是共諜，其實這個對整個社會的認知或者觀感都會造成影響。對於大家要不要再當軍人，這也是一個很大的打擊。為什麼要特別提到？因為你只提軍人，每次好像會當共諜的也只有軍人。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有！因為現、退役加起來有六成多，比例確實很高，而且所凸顯的是中共對於國軍的滲透。"],["馬委員文君：我們知道，如果是一個好的國安團隊，面向應該要更廣。"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["馬委員文君：更何況我們最近才看到，就是最近發生的立法院前院長游錫堃辦公室助理盛礎纓爆出淪為共諜案，他不但在立法院長辦公室當助理，因為可以看到的、可以知道的、可以接觸到的機敏資料非常多，接下來他還擔任很多委員的助理，尤其是民進黨團內的很多立委，他們幾乎都是在外交及國防委員會，包括羅美玲委員、郭昱晴委員、許智傑委員、羅致政委員等等。剛剛有委員提到，大家也希望自己的助理是經過查核的，可是這個困難點可能還是存在。為什麼要特別提到？今天不是只有軍人，現在連立法院也不是只有國民黨的委員，因為現在在罷免的過程當中，通常都是指國民黨的委員就是中共同路人、共匪、共諜。如果在社會的氛圍上建立這樣的意識型態，對整個國家是不利的，這個部分請國安團隊應該要更堅持的把關。"],["蔡局長明彥：當然。"],["馬委員文君：另外，我還要提，現在更恐怖的是，在總統府裡面也發現了，雖然現在已經在調查的階段，所以不方便透露。既然是在調查階段，表示這是存在的事實，裡面吸收的層級非常高，包括民進黨民主學院的副主任；擔任過總統府辦公室的諮議吳尚雨，陪賴副總統到訪過巴拉圭，這是非常核心的人員才有辦法有的禮遇；還有民進黨議員李余典的特助黃曲榮，他們目前都被羈押當中。剛剛你們說查核的部分或者範圍有所不足，如果是這樣，我想請教局長，因為軍人是由軍人的保防單位負責他們的安全查核，可是總統府是由國安單位，你們爆發出這樣的狀況，局長怎麼看？"],["蔡局長明彥：總統府是一個獨立的行政機關，查核的部分不是由我們來進行。"],["馬委員文君：那是由誰？"],["蔡局長明彥：總統府自己有一套管理的機制。"],["馬委員文君：所以它現在不足的部分是什麼？顯然總統府發生這樣的事已經長達6年的時間，不足的部分是什麼？因為你們說要修法，在修法的過程當中必須要面對這樣的問題。他們會比這些軍人知道的更多，因為不是只有接觸軍方的機敏資料而已，甚至全方位的，包括農業、內政、一切的布置、基礎設施及政策等，已經涵蓋全面，所以他可以看到的、知道的會更多，我們在這一部分要怎麼加強？因為審核、查核助理一點意義都沒有，他剛進來被你查核的時候可能沒有問題，可是後來卻被吸收。為什麼被吸收的人會越來越多？這個才是我們最大的隱憂。就像駭客一樣，大家都知道，我們突破了多少、查到多少駭客的資料，可是比較恐怖的是我們查不到的，他已經拿到多少資料或者在什麼地方，你根本不曉得！如果你們要修法去強化，請告訴我們類似這樣的對象，我們應該要怎麼去查核、要怎麼修法、方向應該怎麼做？"],["蔡局長明彥：這大概有幾個部分，一個部分是屬於人的核密，剛剛陳冠廷委員也在關切人的核密、密等。第二個是人核密之後，接密分類的程度，這是第二個部分。第三個部分就是文書、文件的核密也很重要。就國安單位來講，在這部分大概都有一套人的核密、接密的管制以及文件機密等級的劃分。"],["馬委員文君：對，我知道。"],["蔡局長明彥：這個機制可能各單位有必要更加強建立起來。"],["馬委員文君：我知道。你們已經有說過，表示現在總統府做得不好，因為這麼重要的、這麼高層的……"],["蔡局長明彥：可能各單位都可以來看這方面有沒有可以加強的地方。"],["馬委員文君：所以當你們要修法的時候，請注意，不是無限的擴大，然後不是把里長、宮廟、宗教或什麼全部通通要納入，可是獨獨漏了很重要、可能可以全方面掌握很多機敏資料的這些單位跟人員，也許你們根本不敢查，可是發生最嚴重的情況卻是他們。這個部分我們同意，如果在國安上有漏洞的時候，你怎麼樣去強化或者修正，我們都贊成，可是不能變成是一個在政治上迫害的工具，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們沒有不敢查，我們是全面清查，也沒有分黨派，才會有這些案子出現。謝謝委員。"],["馬委員文君：你剛剛提到這些案子的出現，我想請教一下，就我剛剛提到的總統府或者民進黨的這些前副主任，他們是被檢舉，還是你們主動發現？"],["蔡局長明彥：這是個案，我不能在這邊討論個案。"],["馬委員文君：你只要說是被檢舉或被……"],["蔡局長明彥：這都還是涉及到案情，不行！"],["馬委員文君：像軍中的，你們都可以說全部都是被檢舉的。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有！軍中的是一個總數，我們可以用總數來說明相關趨勢，但剛剛委員所提到的是個案案情、案況的內容，這部分請委員容許我沒有辦法公開討論。"],["馬委員文君：為什麼這個很重要？如果說出是被檢舉或者你們主動發現，對案情有什麼影響？告訴我們有什麼影響？"],["蔡局長明彥：現在主要是他涉及到個案，我們就不適合討論。"],["馬委員文君：我們沒有要討論啦，我們是說……"],["蔡局長明彥：這是刑事訴訟法的規定，我們不能違法，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：因為他是被檢舉的，這跟只是發現的差很多。"],["蔡局長明彥：這是案情的一部分。"],["馬委員文君：因為最重要的是，很多政府單位接到民眾陳情要拆違建或什麼，其實他們通常都說是檢舉的，我不知道為什麼你們在這個部分認為這跟案情是有涉及的。"],["蔡局長明彥：這是個案！"],["馬委員文君：因為現在發現這是一個案子，所以你把它當成個案，可是未來如果它在周邊都發生的時候，它就已經不是個案了，我們希望國安局還是在這個部分要提出來，如果這不是我們主動發現而是被檢舉的，它的差別在哪裡？我們連總統府有這樣的人存在，而且已經長達6年我們都沒有發現，這是非常恐怖的事情，你如果要靠檢舉，我覺得這是非常恐怖的事情！因為你根本沒有辦法注意到匪諜就在我們的總統府裡面，這一個部分我們要特別……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們不適合討論個案，謝謝委員的提醒，但不適合討論個案，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：另外，局長我在這裡可能也要提醒你一點，因為剛剛我有看到在質詢的時候，你沒有立場去要求我們的委員，說他有個資的問題，如果是公開的資訊，我相信局長你的本職本能……"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，跟委員說明一下……"],["馬委員文君：你的本職本能……"],["蔡局長明彥：不是、不是，他指稱的人是錯的！"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，錯的你應該跟他說是錯的。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我就是請他要注意個資。"],["馬委員文君：但不是告訴他，你這個有個資的問題。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，是個資。"],["馬委員文君：因為我們一定是搜尋公開的資訊，或者有人提供的資訊，在這個部分局長的立場跟角色應該是要……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，所以我在做善意的提醒。"],["馬委員文君：你可以告訴他那個是錯的……"],["蔡局長明彥：有！"],["馬委員文君：而不是你去指導委員，說你這個有牽涉到個資的問題。"],["蔡局長明彥：我沒有指導，我是在提醒，我怕會違法，我怕為了質詢而違法，這對委員不好。"],["馬委員文君：所以我們還是請局長在這個部分，因為國安對我們全國民眾都非常重要……"],["蔡局長明彥：當然！"],["馬委員文君：尤其像這一次關稅的問題，我們看看新加坡的總理，他告訴全國的民眾，雖然新加坡只被課了10%，可是他跟全國的新加坡人民提到什麼？我們可能現在處於不穩定的狀態、我們可能會面臨戰爭、戰爭會對我們造成什麼樣影響，他是讓所有全民共同去面對，而且是很實際的狀況，他才被扣10%，而且新加坡算是一個比較穩定的國家，他也沒有一些戰爭的風險，可是他已經告訴全國人民，我們在世界的局勢當中可能要面臨這樣的局勢。如果以臺灣的狀況，其實我們更險竣，不管是經濟、不管是地緣政治，我們的風險都是最高，所以我們要怎麼讓大家都可以一致面對現在發生的困境、大家一致對外，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，面對外在威脅，國家要團結沒有錯，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：尤其國安單位，我們從你的業務報告裡面希望看到你們的格局更高、更遠、更廣而且更國際化，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，國安沒有分黨派、沒有分顏色，謝謝委員。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員上臺質詢。","接下來由王定宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-6","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","馬文君","王定宇","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","沈伯洋","李坤城","王鴻薇","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00001"}}}