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00:00:49,373\n這29人裡面其實有中央機關的代表有地方政府的代表然後也有勞工團體雇主團體資方就資方團體跟專家學者都有因為發生了這麼多事情而且是7000多萬我是覺得說到底基金管理委員會有沒有這29人裡面有沒有任何一個人在開會的時候提出質疑過\n\n3\n00:00:53,220 --> 00:01:19,702\n我想我們其實在這一次的檢討裡面我們其實有說明我們其實是我也不想把責任都是說只是因為管理會的審查的狀況我們會來強化整個基金管理的機制我想知道說你這邊是中央政府8人地方政府3人共11人嘛那勞工團體僱主團體大概10個人專家學者這邊有我們的法律人才主計人才嗎\n\n4\n00:01:23,194 --> 00:01:51,964\n主要可能他們的專長是包含在就業服務或者是也會有一些是弱勢團體的代表那他們在他們自己特定的領域裡面所以這麼龐大的一個基金規模400多億而我之前還有到500多億那我是覺得說如果沒有一個所謂的專業的專門在管錢的人然後才會產生這些7000多萬的這些我們所謂的主總有代表在裡面是嗎有嗎有好那我比較想知道說因為主席就是部長嗎\n\n5\n00:01:53,183 --> 00:02:19,853\n對不對是所以等於是部長要全權負責這個7000多萬的事情啊不是嗎我想面對這個事情勞動部當然有一定的責任好那我們再來看一下就是我們審計部當然已經在查了那我就不再多講那我想知道說那就這個就暗地基金管理委員會的我們一直在質疑他是不是形同虛設的問題也就是說當初現有這個問題到底是誰正好他可以這樣這麼做你覺得呢\n\n6\n00:02:21,980 --> 00:02:44,607\n跟路人說明我不認為到有到尋同虛設想尋同虛設也對這個管理會的委員們不公平但是我們也認為這裡面很多管理的機制跟管理會運作其實我們覺得有可以更強化監督的空間可以去買禮品可以辦演唱會這些事情在你們在管理委員會開會的時候都沒有人去質疑這些事情嗎\n\n7\n00:02:45,807 --> 00:03:01,016\n29個人其實都沒有一個人來質疑過所以我們覺得其實在這個包括在會議的資料上面或者是其實相關的審議的過程裡面這也是為什麼我們定定審議我們接下來定定審議要點那來協助委員們然後做更強化的把關\n\n8\n00:03:01,696 --> 00:03:18,022\n那謝一龍這個案件如果你要怎麼來預防如果按照我們直接委員會這個這個層級的話跟路人說明我們其實接下來會在致用原則上面直接就明定不可以做跟業務無關的使用\n\n9\n00:03:18,602 --> 00:03:36,743\n對我有看到你的管理面什麼資訊公開面這些那在用途面我剛才講的是在用途面我們會來訂定基金的資用原則所以在資用原則上面我們希望就直接就把包括大家現在很詬病的禮品的採購或者是跟一些跟\n\n10\n00:03:37,827 --> 00:04:00,747\n比方說大家最詬病的是那個軌道燈的使用直接在這個職用原則上面就直接規定以後就是直接禁止的這甚至都不用進到委員會裡面我看到你們今天開了兩次會那我想知道你們開會有真正落實到檢討或者是說督促嗎當然其實我們在上一次的委員會裡面的時候\n\n11\n00:04:01,187 --> 00:04:29,266\n就已經是用新的強化把關的機制在運作包括提供資訊包括相關的審議了我有幾個建議就是說你可能勞動發展署這邊你的牽涉的議題非常的廣非常的複雜還可能牽涉到其他機關所以我是覺得說你們是不是應該也要分組像我們之前在我們原轉會好了就是我們之前蔡英文總統的那個原轉會他也會有分教育組有分土地組有分什麼組\n\n12\n00:04:29,986 --> 00:04:58,674\n所以當然我講老公的問題當然有很多種那29個人裡面是不是可以去分組把工作來消化不然那麼多資料給大家可是你有時間去看這些東西嗎你有時間去消化這些資料嗎所以我在想應該是你們要去專業化個別來討論這個所謂的層層負責或者說每一件事情來去看它的是不是符合所謂的法規所以我是覺得應該是\n\n13\n00:04:59,614 --> 00:05:19,644\n要這樣而不是是虛設一個29人在那裡可是29人到底在做什麼沒有人知道有人就像你上面投影片上面寫的我們從原本是5000萬以上會納入內控現在其實已經擴大到2000萬以上而且我們還會設定一個外部的這個外積的集合的機制這個部分是現在5000萬變2000萬是內控\n\n14\n00:05:22,165 --> 00:05:33,478\n可是我們還會設定一個外部的集合由法律跟會計專業背景的人來幫我們在這些特定大家特別關心的議題上面直接做集合這都是我們在強化整個基金管理上面的具體的做法\n\n15\n00:05:34,113 --> 00:05:52,872\n那我看到對啊那2000萬是很像看起來是比較嚴格可是實際上是更增添我們委員們的審議及監督上的難度因為會更多會更多量對不對本來以前是2000萬以上嘛現在是2000萬以上嘛所以會更複雜所以是不是這個部分你應該再去想我剛才所謂的分組的問題\n\n16\n00:05:55,981 --> 00:06:14,610\n最後因為我是原住民當然還是要聽原住民講話最近在1月份的時候有收到一封信就是關於我們原住民的就是就業服務這個部分那其實在原民會一直有一直有一個叫做原住民就業服務員大概是2007年設置的可是\n\n17\n00:06:15,911 --> 00:06:29,451\n勞動部這邊在2022年的時候成立了一個所謂也是就每兩萬人以上可以設立原住民特殊文化需求的公立就業服務機構也就是說這兩個單位其實是他們所做的事情是一樣的\n\n18\n00:06:30,552 --> 00:06:47,420\n所以會重複性會非常高所以我會覺得說就資源浪費上面或者是說我們所謂的資源整合上面我是覺得這個需要你們跟原民會來溝通或者是來努力因為我知道你們現在在青年職業這邊有針對青年人的也有執訓中心\n\n19\n00:06:48,320 --> 00:07:01,457\n可是原住民這邊到目前為止沒有針對專屬原住民的一個所謂的一個機構其實是可以的因為你在原民會有在勞動部這邊有這麼多的人力如果說合併在一起是不是可以更好可以更全面\n\n20\n00:07:02,495 --> 00:07:26,226\n跟瑞恩說明我們其實現在跟園民會是有一個跨部會的這個溝通的機制那我們也很樂意跟園民會在這方面來討論尤其是相關資源的設定因為工作性質雷同所以他們常常會去比如說我是屏東縣的園民會的就業服務員我是屏東縣政府的就業服務員可是他們會互相來抄取資料\n\n21\n00:07:27,586 --> 00:07:40,947\n或者是說為了報成果大家成果都是一樣的啊我的意思是說其實就是要去盤點不要做這些重複性的事情當然我們增加工作機會是很好所以台東化你也需要可是我的意思就是應該把這個兩個部會的\n\n22\n00:07:42,669 --> 00:08:07,983\n所謂就業服務能夠整合然後在中央的園民會那邊是不能預缺不補然後在地方是預缺可以補的又造成他們PITS上面的一些內心上面的一些比較會認為說怎麼地方的就業服務比較好所以即使這些部分都可以去溝通去協調可以嗎部長當然如果我們能夠做到更好包括跟地方上面的原住民的就業的資源中央\n\n23\n00:08:09,064 --> 00:08:14,094\n補助的就業的資源我們怎麼樣來做準這我們很樂意跟人民會起來討論這件事情好那我就期待謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7537\t8498\t主席有請部長部長早我今天就按基金的那個管理設置就是委員會這個設置我想詢問幾個問題就是說他現在這29人是如何產生的\n30834\t49373\t這29人裡面其實有中央機關的代表有地方政府的代表然後也有勞工團體雇主團體資方就資方團體跟專家學者都有因為發生了這麼多事情而且是7000多萬我是覺得說到底基金管理委員會有沒有這29人裡面有沒有任何一個人在開會的時候提出質疑過\n53220\t79702\t我想我們其實在這一次的檢討裡面我們其實有說明我們其實是我也不想把責任都是說只是因為管理會的審查的狀況我們會來強化整個基金管理的機制我想知道說你這邊是中央政府8人地方政府3人共11人嘛那勞工團體僱主團體大概10個人專家學者這邊有我們的法律人才主計人才嗎\n83194\t111964\t主要可能他們的專長是包含在就業服務或者是也會有一些是弱勢團體的代表那他們在他們自己特定的領域裡面所以這麼龐大的一個基金規模400多億而我之前還有到500多億那我是覺得說如果沒有一個所謂的專業的專門在管錢的人然後才會產生這些7000多萬的這些我們所謂的主總有代表在裡面是嗎有嗎有好那我比較想知道說因為主席就是部長嗎\n113183\t139853\t對不對是所以等於是部長要全權負責這個7000多萬的事情啊不是嗎我想面對這個事情勞動部當然有一定的責任好那我們再來看一下就是我們審計部當然已經在查了那我就不再多講那我想知道說那就這個就暗地基金管理委員會的我們一直在質疑他是不是形同虛設的問題也就是說當初現有這個問題到底是誰正好他可以這樣這麼做你覺得呢\n141980\t164607\t跟路人說明 我不認為到有到尋同虛設想尋同虛設也對這個管理會的委員們不公平但是我們也認為這裡面很多管理的機制跟管理會運作其實我們覺得有可以更強化監督的空間可以去買禮品 可以辦演唱會這些事情在你們在管理委員會開會的時候都沒有人去質疑這些事情嗎\n165807\t181016\t29個人其實都沒有一個人來質疑過所以我們覺得其實在這個包括在會議的資料上面或者是其實相關的審議的過程裡面這也是為什麼我們定定審議我們接下來定定審議要點那來協助委員們然後做更強化的把關\n181696\t198022\t那謝一龍這個案件如果你要怎麼來預防如果按照我們直接委員會這個這個層級的話跟路人說明我們其實接下來會在致用原則上面直接就明定不可以做跟業務無關的使用\n198602\t216743\t對我有看到你的管理面什麼資訊公開面這些那在用途面我剛才講的是在用途面我們會來訂定基金的資用原則所以在資用原則上面我們希望就直接就把包括大家現在很詬病的禮品的採購或者是跟一些跟\n217827\t240747\t比方說大家最詬病的是那個軌道燈的使用直接在這個職用原則上面就直接規定以後就是直接禁止的這甚至都不用進到委員會裡面我看到你們今天開了兩次會那我想知道你們開會有真正落實到檢討或者是說督促嗎當然其實我們在上一次的委員會裡面的時候\n241187\t269266\t就已經是用新的強化把關的機制在運作包括提供資訊包括相關的審議了我有幾個建議就是說你可能勞動發展署這邊你的牽涉的議題非常的廣非常的複雜還可能牽涉到其他機關所以我是覺得說你們是不是應該也要分組像我們之前在我們原轉會好了就是我們之前蔡英文總統的那個原轉會他也會有分教育組有分土地組有分什麼組\n269986\t298674\t所以當然我講老公的問題當然有很多種那29個人裡面是不是可以去分組把工作來消化不然那麼多資料給大家可是你有時間去看這些東西嗎你有時間去消化這些資料嗎所以我在想應該是你們要去專業化個別來討論這個所謂的層層負責或者說每一件事情來去看它的是不是符合所謂的法規所以我是覺得應該是\n299614\t319644\t要這樣而不是是虛設一個29人在那裡可是29人到底在做什麼沒有人知道有人就像你上面投影片上面寫的我們從原本是5000萬以上會納入內控現在其實已經擴大到2000萬以上而且我們還會設定一個外部的這個外積的集合的機制這個部分是現在5000萬變2000萬是內控\n322165\t333478\t可是我們還會設定一個外部的集合由法律跟會計專業背景的人來幫我們在這些特定大家特別關心的議題上面直接做集合這都是我們在強化整個基金管理上面的具體的做法\n334113\t352872\t那我看到對啊 那2000萬是很像看起來是比較嚴格 可是實際上是更增添我們委員們的審議及監督上的難度 因為會更多 會更多量對不對 本來以前是2000萬以上嘛 現在是2000萬以上嘛 所以會更複雜所以是不是這個部分 你應該再去想我剛才所謂的分組的問題\n355981\t374610\t最後因為我是原住民當然還是要聽原住民講話最近在1月份的時候有收到一封信就是關於我們原住民的就是就業服務這個部分那其實在原民會一直有一直有一個叫做原住民就業服務員大概是2007年設置的可是\n375911\t389451\t勞動部這邊在2022年的時候成立了一個所謂也是就每兩萬人以上可以設立原住民特殊文化需求的公立就業服務機構也就是說這兩個單位其實是他們所做的事情是一樣的\n390552\t407420\t所以會重複性會非常高所以我會覺得說就資源浪費上面或者是說我們所謂的資源整合上面我是覺得這個需要你們跟原民會來溝通或者是來努力因為我知道你們現在在青年職業這邊有針對青年人的也有執訓中心\n408320\t421457\t可是原住民這邊到目前為止沒有針對專屬原住民的一個所謂的一個機構其實是可以的因為你在原民會有在勞動部這邊有這麼多的人力如果說合併在一起是不是可以更好可以更全面\n422495\t446226\t跟瑞恩說明我們其實現在跟園民會是有一個跨部會的這個溝通的機制那我們也很樂意跟園民會在這方面來討論尤其是相關資源的設定因為工作性質雷同所以他們常常會去比如說我是屏東縣的園民會的就業服務員我是屏東縣政府的就業服務員可是他們會互相來抄取資料\n447586\t460947\t或者是說為了報成果大家成果都是一樣的啊我的意思是說其實就是要去盤點不要做這些重複性的事情當然我們增加工作機會是很好所以台東化你也需要可是我的意思就是應該把這個兩個部會的\n462669\t487983\t所謂就業服務能夠整合然後在中央的園民會那邊是不能預缺不補然後在地方是預缺可以補的又造成他們PITS上面的一些內心上面的一些比較會認為說怎麼地方的就業服務比較好所以即使這些部分都可以去溝通去協調可以嗎部長當然如果我們能夠做到更好包括跟地方上面的原住民的就業的資源中央\n489064\t494094\t補助的就業的資源 我們怎麼樣來做準 這我們很樂意跟人民會起來討論這件事情好 那我就期待 謝謝\n","txt":"主席有請部長部長早我今天就按基金的那個管理設置就是委員會這個設置我想詢問幾個問題就是說他現在這29人是如何產生的\n這29人裡面其實有中央機關的代表有地方政府的代表然後也有勞工團體雇主團體資方就資方團體跟專家學者都有因為發生了這麼多事情而且是7000多萬我是覺得說到底基金管理委員會有沒有這29人裡面有沒有任何一個人在開會的時候提出質疑過\n我想我們其實在這一次的檢討裡面我們其實有說明我們其實是我也不想把責任都是說只是因為管理會的審查的狀況我們會來強化整個基金管理的機制我想知道說你這邊是中央政府8人地方政府3人共11人嘛那勞工團體僱主團體大概10個人專家學者這邊有我們的法律人才主計人才嗎\n主要可能他們的專長是包含在就業服務或者是也會有一些是弱勢團體的代表那他們在他們自己特定的領域裡面所以這麼龐大的一個基金規模400多億而我之前還有到500多億那我是覺得說如果沒有一個所謂的專業的專門在管錢的人然後才會產生這些7000多萬的這些我們所謂的主總有代表在裡面是嗎有嗎有好那我比較想知道說因為主席就是部長嗎\n對不對是所以等於是部長要全權負責這個7000多萬的事情啊不是嗎我想面對這個事情勞動部當然有一定的責任好那我們再來看一下就是我們審計部當然已經在查了那我就不再多講那我想知道說那就這個就暗地基金管理委員會的我們一直在質疑他是不是形同虛設的問題也就是說當初現有這個問題到底是誰正好他可以這樣這麼做你覺得呢\n跟路人說明 我不認為到有到尋同虛設想尋同虛設也對這個管理會的委員們不公平但是我們也認為這裡面很多管理的機制跟管理會運作其實我們覺得有可以更強化監督的空間可以去買禮品 可以辦演唱會這些事情在你們在管理委員會開會的時候都沒有人去質疑這些事情嗎\n29個人其實都沒有一個人來質疑過所以我們覺得其實在這個包括在會議的資料上面或者是其實相關的審議的過程裡面這也是為什麼我們定定審議我們接下來定定審議要點那來協助委員們然後做更強化的把關\n那謝一龍這個案件如果你要怎麼來預防如果按照我們直接委員會這個這個層級的話跟路人說明我們其實接下來會在致用原則上面直接就明定不可以做跟業務無關的使用\n對我有看到你的管理面什麼資訊公開面這些那在用途面我剛才講的是在用途面我們會來訂定基金的資用原則所以在資用原則上面我們希望就直接就把包括大家現在很詬病的禮品的採購或者是跟一些跟\n比方說大家最詬病的是那個軌道燈的使用直接在這個職用原則上面就直接規定以後就是直接禁止的這甚至都不用進到委員會裡面我看到你們今天開了兩次會那我想知道你們開會有真正落實到檢討或者是說督促嗎當然其實我們在上一次的委員會裡面的時候\n就已經是用新的強化把關的機制在運作包括提供資訊包括相關的審議了我有幾個建議就是說你可能勞動發展署這邊你的牽涉的議題非常的廣非常的複雜還可能牽涉到其他機關所以我是覺得說你們是不是應該也要分組像我們之前在我們原轉會好了就是我們之前蔡英文總統的那個原轉會他也會有分教育組有分土地組有分什麼組\n所以當然我講老公的問題當然有很多種那29個人裡面是不是可以去分組把工作來消化不然那麼多資料給大家可是你有時間去看這些東西嗎你有時間去消化這些資料嗎所以我在想應該是你們要去專業化個別來討論這個所謂的層層負責或者說每一件事情來去看它的是不是符合所謂的法規所以我是覺得應該是\n要這樣而不是是虛設一個29人在那裡可是29人到底在做什麼沒有人知道有人就像你上面投影片上面寫的我們從原本是5000萬以上會納入內控現在其實已經擴大到2000萬以上而且我們還會設定一個外部的這個外積的集合的機制這個部分是現在5000萬變2000萬是內控\n可是我們還會設定一個外部的集合由法律跟會計專業背景的人來幫我們在這些特定大家特別關心的議題上面直接做集合這都是我們在強化整個基金管理上面的具體的做法\n那我看到對啊 那2000萬是很像看起來是比較嚴格 可是實際上是更增添我們委員們的審議及監督上的難度 因為會更多 會更多量對不對 本來以前是2000萬以上嘛 現在是2000萬以上嘛 所以會更複雜所以是不是這個部分 你應該再去想我剛才所謂的分組的問題\n最後因為我是原住民當然還是要聽原住民講話最近在1月份的時候有收到一封信就是關於我們原住民的就是就業服務這個部分那其實在原民會一直有一直有一個叫做原住民就業服務員大概是2007年設置的可是\n勞動部這邊在2022年的時候成立了一個所謂也是就每兩萬人以上可以設立原住民特殊文化需求的公立就業服務機構也就是說這兩個單位其實是他們所做的事情是一樣的\n所以會重複性會非常高所以我會覺得說就資源浪費上面或者是說我們所謂的資源整合上面我是覺得這個需要你們跟原民會來溝通或者是來努力因為我知道你們現在在青年職業這邊有針對青年人的也有執訓中心\n可是原住民這邊到目前為止沒有針對專屬原住民的一個所謂的一個機構其實是可以的因為你在原民會有在勞動部這邊有這麼多的人力如果說合併在一起是不是可以更好可以更全面\n跟瑞恩說明我們其實現在跟園民會是有一個跨部會的這個溝通的機制那我們也很樂意跟園民會在這方面來討論尤其是相關資源的設定因為工作性質雷同所以他們常常會去比如說我是屏東縣的園民會的就業服務員我是屏東縣政府的就業服務員可是他們會互相來抄取資料\n或者是說為了報成果大家成果都是一樣的啊我的意思是說其實就是要去盤點不要做這些重複性的事情當然我們增加工作機會是很好所以台東化你也需要可是我的意思就是應該把這個兩個部會的\n所謂就業服務能夠整合然後在中央的園民會那邊是不能預缺不補然後在地方是預缺可以補的又造成他們PITS上面的一些內心上面的一些比較會認為說怎麼地方的就業服務比較好所以即使這些部分都可以去溝通去協調可以嗎部長當然如果我們能夠做到更好包括跟地方上面的原住民的就業的資源中央\n補助的就業的資源 我們怎麼樣來做準 這我們很樂意跟人民會起來討論這件事情好 那我就期待 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.537 --> 00:08.498\n主席有請部長部長早我今天就按基金的那個管理設置就是委員會這個設置我想詢問幾個問題就是說他現在這29人是如何產生的\n\n00:30.834 --> 00:49.373\n這29人裡面其實有中央機關的代表有地方政府的代表然後也有勞工團體雇主團體資方就資方團體跟專家學者都有因為發生了這麼多事情而且是7000多萬我是覺得說到底基金管理委員會有沒有這29人裡面有沒有任何一個人在開會的時候提出質疑過\n\n00:53.220 --> 01:19.702\n我想我們其實在這一次的檢討裡面我們其實有說明我們其實是我也不想把責任都是說只是因為管理會的審查的狀況我們會來強化整個基金管理的機制我想知道說你這邊是中央政府8人地方政府3人共11人嘛那勞工團體僱主團體大概10個人專家學者這邊有我們的法律人才主計人才嗎\n\n01:23.194 --> 01:51.964\n主要可能他們的專長是包含在就業服務或者是也會有一些是弱勢團體的代表那他們在他們自己特定的領域裡面所以這麼龐大的一個基金規模400多億而我之前還有到500多億那我是覺得說如果沒有一個所謂的專業的專門在管錢的人然後才會產生這些7000多萬的這些我們所謂的主總有代表在裡面是嗎有嗎有好那我比較想知道說因為主席就是部長嗎\n\n01:53.183 --> 02:19.853\n對不對是所以等於是部長要全權負責這個7000多萬的事情啊不是嗎我想面對這個事情勞動部當然有一定的責任好那我們再來看一下就是我們審計部當然已經在查了那我就不再多講那我想知道說那就這個就暗地基金管理委員會的我們一直在質疑他是不是形同虛設的問題也就是說當初現有這個問題到底是誰正好他可以這樣這麼做你覺得呢\n\n02:21.980 --> 02:44.607\n跟路人說明我不認為到有到尋同虛設想尋同虛設也對這個管理會的委員們不公平但是我們也認為這裡面很多管理的機制跟管理會運作其實我們覺得有可以更強化監督的空間可以去買禮品可以辦演唱會這些事情在你們在管理委員會開會的時候都沒有人去質疑這些事情嗎\n\n02:45.807 --> 03:01.016\n29個人其實都沒有一個人來質疑過所以我們覺得其實在這個包括在會議的資料上面或者是其實相關的審議的過程裡面這也是為什麼我們定定審議我們接下來定定審議要點那來協助委員們然後做更強化的把關\n\n03:01.696 --> 03:18.022\n那謝一龍這個案件如果你要怎麼來預防如果按照我們直接委員會這個這個層級的話跟路人說明我們其實接下來會在致用原則上面直接就明定不可以做跟業務無關的使用\n\n03:18.602 --> 03:36.743\n對我有看到你的管理面什麼資訊公開面這些那在用途面我剛才講的是在用途面我們會來訂定基金的資用原則所以在資用原則上面我們希望就直接就把包括大家現在很詬病的禮品的採購或者是跟一些跟\n\n03:37.827 --> 04:00.747\n比方說大家最詬病的是那個軌道燈的使用直接在這個職用原則上面就直接規定以後就是直接禁止的這甚至都不用進到委員會裡面我看到你們今天開了兩次會那我想知道你們開會有真正落實到檢討或者是說督促嗎當然其實我們在上一次的委員會裡面的時候\n\n04:01.187 --> 04:29.266\n就已經是用新的強化把關的機制在運作包括提供資訊包括相關的審議了我有幾個建議就是說你可能勞動發展署這邊你的牽涉的議題非常的廣非常的複雜還可能牽涉到其他機關所以我是覺得說你們是不是應該也要分組像我們之前在我們原轉會好了就是我們之前蔡英文總統的那個原轉會他也會有分教育組有分土地組有分什麼組\n\n04:29.986 --> 04:58.674\n所以當然我講老公的問題當然有很多種那29個人裡面是不是可以去分組把工作來消化不然那麼多資料給大家可是你有時間去看這些東西嗎你有時間去消化這些資料嗎所以我在想應該是你們要去專業化個別來討論這個所謂的層層負責或者說每一件事情來去看它的是不是符合所謂的法規所以我是覺得應該是\n\n04:59.614 --> 05:19.644\n要這樣而不是是虛設一個29人在那裡可是29人到底在做什麼沒有人知道有人就像你上面投影片上面寫的我們從原本是5000萬以上會納入內控現在其實已經擴大到2000萬以上而且我們還會設定一個外部的這個外積的集合的機制這個部分是現在5000萬變2000萬是內控\n\n05:22.165 --> 05:33.478\n可是我們還會設定一個外部的集合由法律跟會計專業背景的人來幫我們在這些特定大家特別關心的議題上面直接做集合這都是我們在強化整個基金管理上面的具體的做法\n\n05:34.113 --> 05:52.872\n那我看到對啊那2000萬是很像看起來是比較嚴格可是實際上是更增添我們委員們的審議及監督上的難度因為會更多會更多量對不對本來以前是2000萬以上嘛現在是2000萬以上嘛所以會更複雜所以是不是這個部分你應該再去想我剛才所謂的分組的問題\n\n05:55.981 --> 06:14.610\n最後因為我是原住民當然還是要聽原住民講話最近在1月份的時候有收到一封信就是關於我們原住民的就是就業服務這個部分那其實在原民會一直有一直有一個叫做原住民就業服務員大概是2007年設置的可是\n\n06:15.911 --> 06:29.451\n勞動部這邊在2022年的時候成立了一個所謂也是就每兩萬人以上可以設立原住民特殊文化需求的公立就業服務機構也就是說這兩個單位其實是他們所做的事情是一樣的\n\n06:30.552 --> 06:47.420\n所以會重複性會非常高所以我會覺得說就資源浪費上面或者是說我們所謂的資源整合上面我是覺得這個需要你們跟原民會來溝通或者是來努力因為我知道你們現在在青年職業這邊有針對青年人的也有執訓中心\n\n06:48.320 --> 07:01.457\n可是原住民這邊到目前為止沒有針對專屬原住民的一個所謂的一個機構其實是可以的因為你在原民會有在勞動部這邊有這麼多的人力如果說合併在一起是不是可以更好可以更全面\n\n07:02.495 --> 07:26.226\n跟瑞恩說明我們其實現在跟園民會是有一個跨部會的這個溝通的機制那我們也很樂意跟園民會在這方面來討論尤其是相關資源的設定因為工作性質雷同所以他們常常會去比如說我是屏東縣的園民會的就業服務員我是屏東縣政府的就業服務員可是他們會互相來抄取資料\n\n07:27.586 --> 07:40.947\n或者是說為了報成果大家成果都是一樣的啊我的意思是說其實就是要去盤點不要做這些重複性的事情當然我們增加工作機會是很好所以台東化你也需要可是我的意思就是應該把這個兩個部會的\n\n07:42.669 --> 08:07.983\n所謂就業服務能夠整合然後在中央的園民會那邊是不能預缺不補然後在地方是預缺可以補的又造成他們PITS上面的一些內心上面的一些比較會認為說怎麼地方的就業服務比較好所以即使這些部分都可以去溝通去協調可以嗎部長當然如果我們能夠做到更好包括跟地方上面的原住民的就業的資源中央\n\n08:09.064 --> 08:14.094\n補助的就業的資源我們怎麼樣來做準這我們很樂意跟人民會起來討論這件事情好那我就期待謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.537,"end":8.498,"text":"主席有請部長部長早我今天就按基金的那個管理設置就是委員會這個設置我想詢問幾個問題就是說他現在這29人是如何產生的"},{"start":30.834,"end":49.373,"text":"這29人裡面其實有中央機關的代表有地方政府的代表然後也有勞工團體雇主團體資方就資方團體跟專家學者都有因為發生了這麼多事情而且是7000多萬我是覺得說到底基金管理委員會有沒有這29人裡面有沒有任何一個人在開會的時候提出質疑過"},{"start":53.22,"end":79.702,"text":"我想我們其實在這一次的檢討裡面我們其實有說明我們其實是我也不想把責任都是說只是因為管理會的審查的狀況我們會來強化整個基金管理的機制我想知道說你這邊是中央政府8人地方政府3人共11人嘛那勞工團體僱主團體大概10個人專家學者這邊有我們的法律人才主計人才嗎"},{"start":83.194,"end":111.964,"text":"主要可能他們的專長是包含在就業服務或者是也會有一些是弱勢團體的代表那他們在他們自己特定的領域裡面所以這麼龐大的一個基金規模400多億而我之前還有到500多億那我是覺得說如果沒有一個所謂的專業的專門在管錢的人然後才會產生這些7000多萬的這些我們所謂的主總有代表在裡面是嗎有嗎有好那我比較想知道說因為主席就是部長嗎"},{"start":113.183,"end":139.853,"text":"對不對是所以等於是部長要全權負責這個7000多萬的事情啊不是嗎我想面對這個事情勞動部當然有一定的責任好那我們再來看一下就是我們審計部當然已經在查了那我就不再多講那我想知道說那就這個就暗地基金管理委員會的我們一直在質疑他是不是形同虛設的問題也就是說當初現有這個問題到底是誰正好他可以這樣這麼做你覺得呢"},{"start":141.98,"end":164.607,"text":"跟路人說明 我不認為到有到尋同虛設想尋同虛設也對這個管理會的委員們不公平但是我們也認為這裡面很多管理的機制跟管理會運作其實我們覺得有可以更強化監督的空間可以去買禮品 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那2000萬是很像看起來是比較嚴格 可是實際上是更增添我們委員們的審議及監督上的難度 因為會更多 會更多量對不對 本來以前是2000萬以上嘛 現在是2000萬以上嘛 所以會更複雜所以是不是這個部分 你應該再去想我剛才所謂的分組的問題"},{"start":355.981,"end":374.61,"text":"最後因為我是原住民當然還是要聽原住民講話最近在1月份的時候有收到一封信就是關於我們原住民的就是就業服務這個部分那其實在原民會一直有一直有一個叫做原住民就業服務員大概是2007年設置的可是"},{"start":375.911,"end":389.451,"text":"勞動部這邊在2022年的時候成立了一個所謂也是就每兩萬人以上可以設立原住民特殊文化需求的公立就業服務機構也就是說這兩個單位其實是他們所做的事情是一樣的"},{"start":390.552,"end":407.42,"text":"所以會重複性會非常高所以我會覺得說就資源浪費上面或者是說我們所謂的資源整合上面我是覺得這個需要你們跟原民會來溝通或者是來努力因為我知道你們現在在青年職業這邊有針對青年人的也有執訓中心"},{"start":408.32,"end":421.457,"text":"可是原住民這邊到目前為止沒有針對專屬原住民的一個所謂的一個機構其實是可以的因為你在原民會有在勞動部這邊有這麼多的人力如果說合併在一起是不是可以更好可以更全面"},{"start":422.495,"end":446.226,"text":"跟瑞恩說明我們其實現在跟園民會是有一個跨部會的這個溝通的機制那我們也很樂意跟園民會在這方面來討論尤其是相關資源的設定因為工作性質雷同所以他們常常會去比如說我是屏東縣的園民會的就業服務員我是屏東縣政府的就業服務員可是他們會互相來抄取資料"},{"start":447.586,"end":460.947,"text":"或者是說為了報成果大家成果都是一樣的啊我的意思是說其實就是要去盤點不要做這些重複性的事情當然我們增加工作機會是很好所以台東化你也需要可是我的意思就是應該把這個兩個部會的"},{"start":462.669,"end":487.983,"text":"所謂就業服務能夠整合然後在中央的園民會那邊是不能預缺不補然後在地方是預缺可以補的又造成他們PITS上面的一些內心上面的一些比較會認為說怎麼地方的就業服務比較好所以即使這些部分都可以去溝通去協調可以嗎部長當然如果我們能夠做到更好包括跟地方上面的原住民的就業的資源中央"},{"start":489.064,"end":494.094,"text":"補助的就業的資源 我們怎麼樣來做準 這我們很樂意跟人民會起來討論這件事情好 那我就期待 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":637,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（10時48分）主席，請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：盧委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：部長早。我今天就就安基金的管理設置，就是委員會這個設置，我想詢問幾個問題，它現在這29人是如何產生的？"],["洪部長申翰：這29人裡面其實有中央機關的代表，也有地方政府的代表，然後也有勞工團體、雇主團體，就是資方團體跟專家學者都有。"],["盧委員縣一：因為發生了這麼多事情，而且是七千多萬，我是覺得到底基金管理委員會有沒有……這29人裡面有沒有任何一個人在開會的時候提出質疑過？"],["洪部長申翰：我想我們在這一次的檢討裡面，我們其實有說明，我也不想把責任都說只是因為管理會的審查狀況，我們會來強化整個基金管理的機制。"],["盧委員縣一：我想知道說你這邊是中央政府8人，地方政府3人，一共11人，那勞工團體、雇主團體大概10個人，專家學者這邊有我們的法律人才、主計人才嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：主要可能他們的專長是在就業服務，或者也會有一些是弱勢團體的代表，他們在他們自己特定的領域裡面……"],["盧委員縣一：所以這麼龐大的一個基金，規模四百多億，之前還有到五百多億，那我是覺得說，如果沒有一個所謂專門在管錢的人，然後才會產生七千多萬這些所謂的……"],["洪部長申翰：主總有代表在裡面。"],["盧委員縣一：是嗎？有嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：有。"],["盧委員縣一：那我比較想知道說，因為主席就是部長，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["盧委員縣一：所以等於是部長要全權負責這七千多萬的事情，不是嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我想面對這個事情勞動部當然有一定的責任。"],["盧委員縣一：我們再來看一下，審計部當然已經在查，我就不再多講，但我想知道，我們也一直在質疑這個就業安定基金管理委員會是不是有形容虛設的問題，也就是說，當初謝宜容這個問題到底是誰縱容他可以這麼做？你覺得呢？"],["洪部長申翰：跟盧委員說明，我不認為有到形同虛設，講「形同虛設」也對這個管理委員會的委員們不公平，但是我們也認為這裡面很多管理的機制跟管理委員會的運作有可以更強化監督的空間。"],["盧委員縣一：可以去買禮品、可以辦演唱會，你們在管理委員會開會的時候都沒有人去質疑這些事情嗎？29個人都沒有一個人質疑過嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：所以我們覺得，包括在會議的資料上面，或是在相關審議的過程裡面，這也是為什麼我們接下來要訂定審議要點以協助委員會們做更強化的把關。"],["盧委員縣一：對於謝宜容這個案件，如果就基金管理委員會這個層級來說的話你要怎麼預防？"],["洪部長申翰：跟盧委員說明，我們接下來其實會在支用原則上面直接明定不可以做跟業務無關的使用。"],["盧委員縣一：對，我有看到你的「管理面」、「資訊公開面」這些……"],["洪部長申翰：對，我剛剛講的是在「用途面」，我們會來訂定基金的支用原則，所以在支用原則上面，我們希望直接就把，包括大家現在很詬病的禮品採購，或者是一些跟……比方說大家最詬病的是軌道燈的使用，就會直接在這個支用原則上面規定，以後就是直接禁止了，甚至都不用進到委員會裡面。"],["盧委員縣一：我看到你們今年開了兩次會，我想知道你們開會有真正落實到檢討或者是督促嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然，其實我們在上一次的委員會裡面就已經是用新的強化把關機制在運作，包括提供資訊，包括相關的審議。"],["盧委員縣一：我有幾個建議，勞動力發展署這邊牽涉的議題非常地廣、非常地複雜，可能還牽涉到其他機關，所以我是覺得你們是不是也應該要分組，像我們之前在原轉會，就是蔡英文總統的那個原轉會，它也有分教育組、土地組或什麼組，所以……當然我講過，勞工的問題有很多種，29個人裡面是不是可以去分組，把工作來消化，不然那麼多資料給大家，可是你有時間去看這些東西嗎？你有時間去消化這些資料嗎？所以我在想應該是你們要去專業化，個別去討論這個所謂的層層負責，或者是每一件事情去看它是不是符合所謂的法規，我是覺得應該要這樣，而不是虛設一個29人在那裡，可是29人到底在做什麼沒有人知道。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，就像你在投影片上面寫的，我們從原本5,000萬以上的會納入內控，現在其實已經擴大到2,000萬以上了，而且我們還會設定一個外部的稽核機制，這個部分是……現在的5,000萬變2,000萬是內控，可是我們還會設定一個外部的稽核，由具法律跟會計專業背景的人來幫我們在這些特定、大家特別關心的議題上面直接做稽核，這都是我們在強化整個基金管理上面的具體作做法。"],["盧委員縣一：2,000萬看起來好像是比較嚴格，可是實際上是更增添委員們的審議及監督上的難度，因為量會更多，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["盧委員縣一：因為以前是5,000萬以上嘛，現在是2,000萬以上，所以會更複雜，這個部分是不是請你再去想我剛剛所說的分組問題？"],["洪部長申翰：是，我們會……"],["盧委員縣一：因為我是原住民當然還是要替原住民講話，最近在1月的時候有收到一封信，就是關於我們原住民就業服務的部分，其實原民會一直有一個叫做原住民就業服務員的工作，大概是2007年設置的，可是勞動部在2022年的時候又成立了一個，每2萬人以上可以設立原住民特殊文化需求的公立就業服務機構。也就是說，這兩個單位所做的事情其實是一樣的，所以重複性會非常高，所以我會覺得，就資源浪費上面，或者是所謂資源整合上面，我是覺得這個需要你們跟原民會溝通或努力。我知道你們現在在青年職涯這邊有針對青年人的，也有職訓中心，可是我們原住民這邊到目前為止，都沒有專屬於原住民的機構，但這其實是可以的，因為你在原民會有，在勞動部這邊有這麼多人力，如果合併在一起是不是可以更好、可以更全面？"],["洪部長申翰：跟盧委員說明，我們現在跟原民會其實有一個跨部會的溝通機制，我們也很樂意跟原民會就這方面來討論，尤其是相關資源的設定……"],["盧委員縣一：對，我要提醒部長的是，因為他們的工作性質雷同，所以他們常常會去……比如說我是屏東縣原民會的就業服務員，他是屏東縣政府的就業服務員，可是資料會互相抄來抄去，或者是說，為了報成果，大家的成果都是一樣的。我的意思是說，其實就是要去盤點，不要做這些重複性的事情，當然，增加我們的工作機會是很好，臺東、花蓮也需要，可是我的意思是，應該把這兩個部會的就業服務員整合，在中央的原民會那邊是遇缺不補，在地方則是遇缺可以補，這會造成他們彼此在內心上面的比較，會認為怎麼地方的就業服務員比較好？所以這些部分其實都可以去溝通、協調，可以嗎？部長。"],["洪部長申翰：當然，如果我們能做到更好，包括跟地方上原住民就業的資源、中央補助的就業資源，我們會怎麼做轉銜，這些我們是很樂意原民會一起來討論這件事情。"],["盧委員縣一：好，那我就期待了。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["盧委員縣一：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝盧委員、謝謝部長。","接續請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","盧縣一","洪孟楷","王正旭","黃秀芳","陳瑩","劉建國","廖先翔","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱若華","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00005"}}}