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{\"word\": \"繼\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 1171.162, \"end\": 1171.322, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"油\", \"start\": 1171.322, \"end\": 1171.462, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"辛\", \"start\": 1171.462, \"end\": 1171.622, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"苦\", \"start\": 1171.622, \"end\": 1171.702, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 1171.702, \"end\": 1171.843, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 1171.843, \"end\": 1172.163, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1172.163, \"end\": 1173.485, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1173.485, \"end\": 1173.705, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1173.705, \"end\": 1173.885, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 1173.885, \"end\": 1174.025, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 1174.025, \"end\": 1174.246, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"休\", \"start\": 1174.246, \"end\": 1174.426, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"息\", \"start\": 1174.426, \"end\": 1174.586, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 1174.586, \"end\": 1174.746, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 1174.746, \"end\": 1174.766, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"鐘\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,438 --> 00:00:36,788\n謝謝主席在我進入質詢之前我也有權宜問題要表達一下我非常支持剛剛主席所裁示還有王洪瑋委員所說的如果說來列席委員會被尋的官員要經一定程序的請假這是尊重委員會也是尊重召委所以今天如果有部分的官員沒有尋這樣子的程序是到現場主席剛剛召委才說才知道請假的話那當然不應該\n\n2\n00:00:37,648 --> 00:00:59,359\n要檢討那要譴責我也保留我也覺得OK啦這是共同的決定那同樣我就要想到4月2號那一天上週三我們的排案召委叫做莊瑞雄委員他排案的是國會擴建簽件的進度報告邀請列席的官員是周萬來秘書長以及議事處的高百祥處長而當天呢\n\n3\n00:01:02,649 --> 00:01:25,131\n現在坐在這裡的是吳昭偉當天是莊瑞雄委員他七點就坐在這裡等著開會了到開會前他手上拿著出席名單還是周萬來秘書長跟高處長沒有請假沒有請假所以我們的委員都很認真提早到場準備諮詢可是呢居然會議時間開始昭偉才收到一張\n\n4\n00:01:27,010 --> 00:01:53,964\n韓國瑜院長燙金的一個書函替周萬來秘書長請假所以如果比較這個標準當天當然在場的委員會的委員當然多數是民進黨的委員我們認為這就是不應當就同樣的標準居然是比今天的狀況還離譜喔主席還是今天到場的時候請假單已經有就是說已經有載明哪些人沒有辦法來\n\n5\n00:01:55,104 --> 00:02:07,500\n當天的狀況是我們都在這裡請假單沒有周恩來要來高百祥要來可是主席在那裡要已經宣布開會才姍姍來遲的一張還是由院長替秘書長請假\n\n6\n00:02:10,261 --> 00:02:31,211\n這當然該譴責同樣的標準當然該譴責更何況當天韓院長的請假函居然是引用立法院各委員會組織法第二條為了替周恩來請假什麼離譜的法條都可以來硬掰胡扯\n\n7\n00:02:32,455 --> 00:02:46,259\n意思是說他當天引用的法條是說以後我講白話文以後委員會排案審查的議案必須是由院會交付如果這樣成立的話主席今天沒有辦法排這個案欸因為這個專案報告並沒有經院會交付欸\n\n8\n00:02:51,101 --> 00:03:15,066\n立法院每天各個委員會因應重大的事件因應大家關心的議案召委的排案權當然可以排專案報告就如同今天吳召委所排的案子應當好好探討言論自由啊那為什麼當天韓國瑜院長為了護航周恩來為了護航義士不公的人員然後引用錯誤的法條\n\n9\n00:03:16,989 --> 00:03:41,715\n給予他們不用來規避迴避監督的這個保護傘更進一步的剝奪了立法院委員排案的職權審議議案的職權如果那天韓國瑜院長引用的法條成立的話今天很遺憾啊這個專案報告沒有院會交付也不能排啊\n\n10\n00:03:42,754 --> 00:03:57,725\n所以不要來剝奪立法委員的排案自由不要來剝奪立法委員的言論自由所以我同樣一樣的標準該譴責今天沒有經請假程序就沒有來的官員該譴責該檢討但是當天\n\n11\n00:04:03,001 --> 00:04:25,220\n更加的嚴重離譜的開會之後才讓教委收到一張燙金的院長代替請假以後請問可以由卓院長行政院長在各個委員會開會當天然後現場提一個卓榮泰院長替法務部長鄭明謙請假卓榮泰院長替我們陸委會梁文傑副主委請假不能這樣嘛\n\n12\n00:04:27,938 --> 00:04:53,055\n所以就程序論程序該譴責就譴責標準一致就如同我今天要講的言論自由一樣好謝謝主席不好意思我表達了我的意見那沒問題就這個部分我想說我這邊會思考一下看將來沒關係我們都尊重您的採釋我只是說大家委員會標準一致今天各位委員的發言我也都尊重那我們的委員會是這樣因為我當召委就是部會首長\n\n13\n00:04:54,116 --> 00:05:16,621\n不是不能請假如果真的有事情當然是可以請假那我們以後大概就是一個方式嘛就是我們可能多久前告訴我然後讓我了解一下理由就這樣就好我從來不會認為不能請假而且我對於制度的要求就是一體適用不管是我們立法院的同仁或者是其他院的\n\n14\n00:05:17,537 --> 00:05:37,987\n同仁都一樣就是一體適用非常謝謝主席不愧是檢察官所以我相信你一定會支持當天立法院民進黨團在這個會議上譴責周萬來的提案一體適用我們先定一個制度出來我們先講定一個制度以後就照那個制度走那如果之前沒有那個制度\n\n15\n00:05:38,527 --> 00:05:39,388\n其實今天談的主題就跟我剛剛說的\n\n16\n00:05:57,364 --> 00:06:12,110\n這個立法委員的排案自由也不容剝奪那言論自由也不是無法五天立法委員的排案自由不可剝奪但是他會受限於一些當然如果有法規排除的就不宜列案嘛\n\n17\n00:06:12,930 --> 00:06:31,622\n但是言論自由一樣不是因為它是自由就可以無法無天它同樣要受制於法規的規範所以鼓吹戰爭仇恨及暴力都是法所不容就是世界皆准的不是只有在台灣我多次在委員會分享\n\n18\n00:06:33,104 --> 00:06:50,692\n吳思瑤我個人從政是因為鄭南榮先生的自焚那時候我十多歲爭取百分之百的言論自由在那個時代對於一個青少年吳思瑤來講我是無比的震撼因此在公共事務的堅持跟捍衛上我們要爭取百分之百的自由\n\n19\n00:06:51,667 --> 00:07:10,296\n但是呢以剛剛國民黨的委員的發言我真的要很遺憾的說當年鄭南榮先生之所以選擇非常極端的手段結束了他的生命來捍衛彰顯台灣需要言論自由當初他對抗的就是執政的威權獨裁的中國國民黨到今天我要說言論自由有兩種\n\n20\n00:07:16,408 --> 00:07:38,204\n一種是絕對的言論自由人權的言論自由另外一種是被政客政黨濫用以政治為目的來操作的言論自由就這個標準來看大家心中有個判準今天剛剛大家都垂詢了陸委會的副主委我要說中配也有兩種\n\n21\n00:07:39,676 --> 00:07:55,833\n一種是在台灣釋放的支持武統血洗台灣的這種中配當然依法規我支持公權力來執行另外一種中配是復查柏中你知道嗎\n\n22\n00:07:57,473 --> 00:08:14,663\n這個出版社的負責人他是中配他在台灣就因為出版了他的出版社出版了一些中國不愛不喜歡的出版品他到中國去被抓被監禁前陣子被判重刑他沒有經過公開的審判\n\n23\n00:08:16,054 --> 00:08:37,282\n陸配有兩種國民黨人為什麼支持的是要血洗台灣鼓吹戰爭的陸配而我沒有看到國民黨的任何人出來聲援支持復查他同樣是陸配他在中國遭受的司法迫害國民黨人沒有人站出來替他說話所以說國民黨沒有變\n\n24\n00:08:40,441 --> 00:09:08,554\n本質上沒有變把言論自由拿來作為政治操弄的工具這一點沒有變但國民黨某種程度也變了過去的國民黨反共現在的國民黨不反共我今天所說的任何話是我的言論自由我願意受公平這是言論自由的範疇但是我沒有逾越任何法律的規範下頁部長您知道有國有器官這紀錄片嗎\n\n25\n00:09:11,909 --> 00:09:24,827\n很抱歉我沒有看過這一部紀錄片是加拿大的紀錄片花了七年的時間他們拍攝了而且是具體的一個軍醫啊他是親眼目擊者\n\n26\n00:09:26,125 --> 00:09:47,925\n當事者他的見證中國為了高官可以延壽為了高官的生命要延長不惜對這些被迫害者多數是法輪功的異議分子進行器官的活摘這部紀錄片拍攝七年前陣子我們都還希望他能夠獲得奧斯卡的紀錄片的提名\n\n27\n00:09:51,127 --> 00:10:18,741\n那這個紀錄片呢在台灣各縣是播放在澎湖播放的時候受到恐嚇說要如果你敢播的話呢就要給你放什麼樣的炸彈還是什麼的但是澎湖縣政府不受威脅他們認為表意自由言論自由創意創作自由不容被打壓這是在澎湖下一頁但是換了到台北市\n\n28\n00:10:19,821 --> 00:10:45,043\n您知道嗎同樣的一部片在台北市是青年局辦的本來要播後來就喊咔了同樣的理由是說他們也接獲了恐嚇性揚言要在播放電影的現場進行槍擊投擲汽油彈所以台北市政府就決定喊咔不辦他基本上受到的恐嚇跟澎湖是一樣的我在這裡沒有探討\n\n29\n00:10:46,614 --> 00:11:09,157\n縣市政府的決策但我要說的是兩個縣市政府他對於看待這件事情的立場是不同的這就是判準的自由以及依法執行有不同狀況的判準但我要問如果這一個打恐嚇電話的人說我要來槍擊要來汽油彈這是言論自由嗎\n\n30\n00:11:11,192 --> 00:11:19,498\n當然不是言論自由嘛對不對所以台北市政府就基於這個他認為市民的安全更重要他認為那個當下要喊卡\n\n31\n00:11:20,973 --> 00:11:49,778\n我用這個案例來分享就是公權力的指使也就是我們在言論自由如果對於公共利益造成及時危險迫害重大而且是及時的話基於公共利益政府公權力是可以採取作為的所以以國有器官的這件事情台北市政府一度喊卡我非常希望台北市政府能夠來捍衛創作自由讓它可以恢復播放\n\n32\n00:11:50,731 --> 00:12:16,628\n但我不評論市政府的作為但我要說的公權力在那個當下他有他判準的因為恐嚇要暴力丟汽油彈槍擊就不是言論自由嘛對不對他就是犯罪嘛我們要預防嘛所以說所謂的國家安全跟言論自由他不是單選題他有很多複雜的問題但是我希望台灣的政治工作者立法委員不要簡單化\n\n33\n00:12:18,311 --> 00:12:45,184\n不要政治化下一頁言論自由應有限制是放諸四海皆准我上次也分享過不管是聯合國的公民與政治權利公約或者是聯合國的言論自由特別報告我今天特別找出來的是這個聯合國的言論自由特別報告2001年就頒布了都再一次的揭示鼓吹戰爭仇恨煽動歧視等言論都應當\n\n34\n00:12:47,685 --> 00:12:59,734\n在民主的程序下去進行必要的限制國際的規範去這樣下業我今天也花了很多時間我去整理了各國的立法\n\n35\n00:13:00,868 --> 00:13:27,022\n德國禁止宣揚納粹的意識形態明確的在他們的刑法來規範面對歷史的傷痕要慎防種族仇恨的意識所以德國的刑法針對這些納粹的言論鼓吹都是有法的規範跟限制也有刑責下一頁看看英國對於煽動恐怖主義\n\n36\n00:13:28,291 --> 00:13:41,267\n也是在特別立了一個恐怖主義法2006年所以任何的煽動恐怖主義行為的言論就屬犯罪這是英國的立法\n\n37\n00:13:42,267 --> 00:14:10,118\n要有重罪15年下一頁看看法國他們同樣刑法來禁止鼓吹恐怖主義的行為而且更與時俱進因為現在的社群網路的使用非常的發達它造成的危害是更及時的所以法國甚至進一步的在刑法的修正當中嚴格針對網路煽動或鼓吹恐怖主義的言論是加重刑罰的再下一頁\n\n38\n00:14:12,975 --> 00:14:34,981\n芬蘭在世界都被認可是自由度非常高的自由民主人權的國家但是芬蘭也有長期以來因為地緣政治承受戰爭的這種威嚇所以他們特別在刑法當中針對軍事或政治危機會被煽動戰爭也處以重刑\n\n39\n00:14:39,262 --> 00:14:56,879\n這是芬蘭跟台灣的狀況非常接近下一頁日本日本不管是中央的立法仇恨言論對策法或是地方縣市政府對於仇恨言論都有不同程度的立法來予以禁止再下一頁\n\n40\n00:14:58,052 --> 00:15:23,168\n當然我分享過美國最高法院九位大法官已自覺對於TikTok的禁令是核限的他們認為國家安全的風險跟TikTok1.7億用戶的自由權利孰高孰低他們選擇了國家安全這是最新的一個判例這些判例都告訴我們什麼呢夏業\n\n41\n00:15:24,574 --> 00:15:51,389\n台灣跟國際接軌言論自由不論是保障面人權面絕對百分之百言論自由的那個面向憲法層次的或是國際公約層次的不論在保障或是必要的限制立法限制針對仇恨戰爭暴力等等都是截然所以台灣的國內法的規範有違逆國際局勢或是台灣有因為這樣就戒嚴了嗎部長\n\n42\n00:15:55,202 --> 00:16:15,897\n我希望你們下次報告的時候都可以把國際法規一個一個來分享給國人跟立法委員我說的都對嘛不管今天我們講的兩岸人民關係條例入出國移民法或者是刑法對於暴力仇恨歧視跟鼓吹戰爭就是與法所不容而公權力當然要依法來執法好下一頁\n\n43\n00:16:17,796 --> 00:16:39,219\n我甚至要舉一個大法官釋字623號我們廳長可能比較熟悉他是針對為了防止消敏兒少性交易所以對於憲法保障的言論自由非絕對做出必要的因為他影響兒童的身心發展的重大公益\n\n44\n00:16:39,759 --> 00:17:04,318\n所以必須對言論自由採取必要的限制廳長你有沒有就這個部分簡要的跟大家分享因為大家可能都在講國家安全的那一塊我最後特別針對兒少的這一塊我們過去的大法官的解釋也都告訴我們保障言論自由非常重要但是對於傷害兒童身心發展的也是需要必進行管制的來廳長你可不可以\n\n45\n00:17:05,879 --> 00:17:34,331\n剪刀剪刀說明嗎最後解釋最主要是針對那個兒少性交易防制條例29條是不是規定違憲做出來的解釋大法官也在闡釋就是說其實這個性交易的這個也是屬於商業言論所提供的訊息相關的廣告這樣子那為了保障他的內容必須是真實無誤導性而且交易目的交易合法為目的\n\n46\n00:17:35,111 --> 00:17:53,025\n那所以應該受到憲法言論自由的保障但是同時也揭示言論自由的保障並不是毫無範圍的全部保護的可以用法律來明確規定所以我們的合照相關的法規並沒有違憲嗎它是合憲性的下一頁\n\n47\n00:17:53,906 --> 00:18:13,187\n所以這是我最終的一個結論我上一次質詢的時候我也拿了這一頁但很不好意思我也很遺憾我的言論自由被斷章取義了被某些黨派的委員去剪成影片說吳思瑤說言論自由要嚴格管制我說的是說對於言論自由的限制\n\n48\n00:18:14,181 --> 00:18:32,756\n要嚴格非常嚴謹非常嚴謹的去予以限制他的目的需要為重大破戒市政府利益就如同剛剛的兒少的事件或者是台北市政府針對國有器官他認為公權利益可能會有公共安全的危險對不對而且首都與目的之間必須有重要的關聯\n\n49\n00:18:33,917 --> 00:18:56,967\n所以我希望透過這些國際案例的分享國內法規的檢視以及我們大家都能夠判準的一個基礎的紅線我相信你去努力問不管是賣菜的朋友還是坐捷運的上班族言論自由是什麼很重要很重要言論自由沒有人可以強害在自由民主的台灣大家都有這樣子的共識但是\n\n50\n00:18:57,907 --> 00:19:16,324\n有那個自由不可以去說要台領導幾幾歲啊不可以說叫我過來打台灣血洗台灣這是正常的一般的公民朋友我們的公民素養是非常高的所以謝謝主席今天排這個案讓我們可以進一步的探討我也希望大家能夠站在法裡面來看待這個嚴肅的問題\n\n51\n00:19:18,986 --> 00:19:34,766\n鄭南榮是犧牲了他的生命來爭取跟捍衛言論自由所以這珍貴的言論自由不能被政治所誤用跟濫用這是我的開場也是我的結論好我們繼續加油辛苦大家謝謝好謝謝那我們接下來休息五分鐘\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8438\t36788\t謝謝主席在我進入質詢之前我也有權宜問題要表達一下我非常支持剛剛主席所裁示還有王洪瑋委員所說的如果說來列席委員會被尋的官員要經一定程序的請假這是尊重委員會也是尊重召委所以今天如果有部分的官員沒有尋這樣子的程序是到現場主席剛剛召委才說才知道請假的話那當然不應該\n37648\t59359\t要檢討那要譴責我也保留我也覺得OK啦這是共同的決定那同樣我就要想到4月2號那一天上週三我們的排案召委叫做莊瑞雄委員他排案的是國會擴建簽件的進度報告邀請列席的官員是周萬來秘書長以及議事處的高百祥處長而當天呢\n62649\t85131\t現在坐在這裡的是吳昭偉 當天是莊瑞雄委員他七點就坐在這裡等著開會了到開會前 他手上拿著出席名單還是周萬來秘書長跟高處長 沒有請假 沒有請假所以我們的委員都很認真提早到場準備諮詢可是呢 居然會議時間開始昭偉才收到一張\n87010\t113964\t韓國瑜院長燙金的一個書函替周萬來秘書長請假所以如果比較這個標準當天當然在場的委員會的委員當然多數是民進黨的委員我們認為這就是不應當就同樣的標準居然是比今天的狀況還離譜喔主席還是今天到場的時候請假單已經有就是說已經有載明哪些人沒有辦法來\n115104\t127500\t當天的狀況是我們都在這裡請假單沒有周恩來要來 高百祥要來可是主席在那裡要已經宣布開會才姍姍來遲的一張還是由院長替秘書長請假\n130261\t151211\t這當然該譴責 同樣的標準當然該譴責 更何況當天韓院長的請假函居然是引用立法院各委員會組織法第二條為了替周恩來請假 什麼離譜的法條都可以來硬掰胡扯\n152455\t166259\t意思是說他當天引用的法條是說以後 我講白話文以後委員會排案審查的議案必須是由院會交付如果這樣成立的話主席今天沒有辦法排這個案欸因為這個專案報告並沒有經院會交付欸\n171101\t195066\t立法院每天各個委員會因應重大的事件因應大家關心的議案 召委的排案權當然可以排專案報告就如同今天吳召委所排的案子應當好好探討言論自由啊那為什麼當天韓國瑜院長為了護航周恩來為了護航義士不公的人員然後引用錯誤的法條\n196989\t221715\t給予他們不用來規避迴避監督的這個保護傘更進一步的剝奪了立法院委員排案的職權審議議案的職權如果那天韓國瑜院長引用的法條成立的話今天很遺憾啊這個專案報告沒有院會交付也不能排啊\n222754\t237725\t所以不要來剝奪立法委員的排案自由不要來剝奪立法委員的言論自由所以我同樣一樣的標準該譴責今天沒有經請假程序就沒有來的官員該譴責該檢討但是當天\n243001\t265220\t更加的嚴重離譜的開會之後才讓教委收到一張燙金的院長代替請假以後請問可以由卓院長行政院長在各個委員會開會當天然後現場提一個卓榮泰院長替法務部長鄭明謙請假卓榮泰院長替我們陸委會梁文傑副主委請假不能這樣嘛\n267938\t293055\t所以就程序 論程序 該譴責就譴責 標準一致就如同我今天要講的言論自由一樣好 謝謝主席 不好意思我表達了我的意見那沒問題 就這個部分我想說我這邊會思考一下看將來沒關係 我們都尊重您的採釋我只是說大家委員會標準一致今天各位委員的發言我也都尊重那我們的委員會是這樣 因為我當召委就是部會首長\n294116\t316621\t不是不能請假 如果真的有事情當然是可以請假那我們以後大概就是一個方式嘛就是我們可能多久前告訴我 然後讓我了解一下理由就這樣就好我從來不會認為不能請假而且我對於制度的要求就是一體適用不管是我們立法院的同仁或者是其他院的\n317537\t337987\t同仁都一樣就是一體適用非常謝謝主席不愧是檢察官所以我相信你一定會支持當天立法院民進黨團在這個會議上譴責周萬來的提案一體適用我們先定一個制度出來我們先講定一個制度以後就照那個制度走那如果之前沒有那個制度\n338527\t339388\t其實今天談的主題就跟我剛剛說的\n357364\t372110\t這個立法委員的排案自由也不容剝奪那言論自由也不是無法五天立法委員的排案自由不可剝奪但是他會受限於一些當然如果有法規排除的就不宜列案嘛\n372930\t391622\t但是言論自由一樣不是因為它是自由就可以無法無天它同樣要受制於法規的規範所以鼓吹戰爭仇恨及暴力都是法所不容就是世界皆准的不是只有在台灣我多次在委員會分享\n393104\t410692\t吳思瑤我個人從政是因為鄭南榮先生的自焚那時候我十多歲爭取百分之百的言論自由在那個時代對於一個青少年吳思瑤來講我是無比的震撼因此在公共事務的堅持跟捍衛上我們要爭取百分之百的自由\n411667\t430296\t但是呢以剛剛國民黨的委員的發言我真的要很遺憾的說當年鄭南榮先生之所以選擇非常極端的手段結束了他的生命來捍衛彰顯台灣需要言論自由當初他對抗的就是執政的威權獨裁的中國國民黨到今天我要說言論自由有兩種\n436408\t458204\t一種是絕對的言論自由人權的言論自由另外一種是被政客政黨濫用以政治為目的來操作的言論自由就這個標準來看大家心中有個判準今天剛剛大家都垂詢了陸委會的副主委我要說中配也有兩種\n459676\t475833\t一種是在台灣釋放的 支持武統血洗台灣的這種中配當然依法規 我支持公權力來執行另外一種中配是復查 柏中你知道嗎\n477473\t494663\t這個出版社的負責人他是中配他在台灣就因為出版了他的出版社出版了一些中國不愛不喜歡的出版品他到中國去被抓被監禁前陣子被判重刑他沒有經過公開的審判\n496054\t517282\t陸配有兩種國民黨人為什麼支持的是要血洗台灣鼓吹戰爭的陸配而我沒有看到國民黨的任何人出來聲援支持復查他同樣是陸配他在中國遭受的司法迫害國民黨人沒有人站出來替他說話所以說國民黨沒有變\n520441\t548554\t本質上沒有變把言論自由拿來作為政治操弄的工具這一點沒有變但國民黨某種程度也變了過去的國民黨反共現在的國民黨不反共我今天所說的任何話是我的言論自由我願意受公平這是言論自由的範疇但是我沒有逾越任何法律的規範下頁部長您知道有國有器官這紀錄片嗎\n551909\t564827\t很抱歉我沒有看過這一部紀錄片是加拿大的紀錄片花了七年的時間他們拍攝了而且是具體的一個軍醫啊他是親眼目擊者\n566125\t587925\t當事者他的見證中國為了高官可以延壽為了高官的生命要延長不惜對這些被迫害者多數是法輪功的異議分子進行器官的活摘這部紀錄片拍攝七年前陣子我們都還希望他能夠獲得奧斯卡的紀錄片的提名\n591127\t618741\t那這個紀錄片呢在台灣各縣是播放在澎湖播放的時候受到恐嚇說要如果你敢播的話呢就要給你放什麼樣的炸彈還是什麼的但是澎湖縣政府不受威脅他們認為表意自由言論自由創意創作自由不容被打壓這是在澎湖下一頁但是換了到台北市\n619821\t645043\t您知道嗎 同樣的一部片在台北市是青年局辦的 本來要播後來就喊咔了同樣的理由是說他們也接獲了恐嚇性揚言要在播放電影的現場進行槍擊投擲汽油彈所以台北市政府就決定喊咔不辦他基本上受到的恐嚇跟澎湖是一樣的我在這裡沒有探討\n646614\t669157\t縣市政府的決策但我要說的是兩個縣市政府他對於看待這件事情的立場是不同的這就是判準的自由以及依法執行有不同狀況的判準但我要問如果這一個打恐嚇電話的人說我要來槍擊要來汽油彈這是言論自由嗎\n671192\t679498\t當然不是言論自由嘛 對不對所以台北市政府就基於這個他認為市民的安全更重要他認為那個當下要喊卡\n680973\t709778\t我用這個案例來分享就是公權力的指使也就是我們在言論自由如果對於公共利益造成及時危險迫害重大而且是及時的話基於公共利益政府公權力是可以採取作為的所以以國有器官的這件事情台北市政府一度喊卡我非常希望台北市政府能夠來捍衛創作自由讓它可以恢復播放\n710731\t736628\t但我不評論市政府的作為但我要說的公權力在那個當下他有他判準的因為恐嚇要暴力丟汽油彈槍擊就不是言論自由嘛對不對他就是犯罪嘛我們要預防嘛所以說所謂的國家安全跟言論自由他不是單選題他有很多複雜的問題但是我希望台灣的政治工作者立法委員不要簡單化\n738311\t765184\t不要政治化下一頁言論自由應有限制是放諸四海皆准我上次也分享過不管是聯合國的公民與政治權利公約或者是聯合國的言論自由特別報告我今天特別找出來的是這個聯合國的言論自由特別報告2001年就頒布了都再一次的揭示鼓吹戰爭仇恨煽動歧視等言論都應當\n767685\t779734\t在民主的程序下去進行必要的限制國際的規範去這樣下業我今天也花了很多時間我去整理了各國的立法\n780868\t807022\t德國禁止宣揚納粹的意識形態明確的在他們的刑法來規範面對歷史的傷痕要慎防種族仇恨的意識所以德國的刑法針對這些納粹的言論鼓吹都是有法的規範跟限制也有刑責下一頁看看英國對於煽動恐怖主義\n808291\t821267\t也是在特別立了一個恐怖主義法2006年所以任何的煽動恐怖主義行為的言論就屬犯罪這是英國的立法\n822267\t850118\t要有重罪15年下一頁看看法國他們同樣刑法來禁止鼓吹恐怖主義的行為而且更與時俱進因為現在的社群網路的使用非常的發達它造成的危害是更及時的所以法國甚至進一步的在刑法的修正當中嚴格針對網路煽動或鼓吹恐怖主義的言論是加重刑罰的再下一頁\n852975\t874981\t芬蘭在世界都被認可是自由度非常高的自由民主人權的國家但是芬蘭也有長期以來因為地緣政治承受戰爭的這種威嚇所以他們特別在刑法當中針對軍事或政治危機會被煽動戰爭也處以重刑\n879262\t896879\t這是芬蘭跟台灣的狀況非常接近下一頁日本日本不管是中央的立法仇恨言論對策法或是地方縣市政府對於仇恨言論都有不同程度的立法來予以禁止再下一頁\n898052\t923168\t當然我分享過美國最高法院九位大法官已自覺對於TikTok的禁令是核限的他們認為國家安全的風險跟TikTok1.7億用戶的自由權利 孰高孰低他們選擇了國家安全 這是最新的一個判例這些判例都告訴我們什麼呢 夏業\n924574\t951389\t台灣跟國際接軌言論自由不論是保障面人權面絕對百分之百言論自由的那個面向憲法層次的或是國際公約層次的不論在保障或是必要的限制立法限制針對仇恨戰爭暴力等等都是截然所以台灣的國內法的規範有違逆國際局勢或是台灣有因為這樣就戒嚴了嗎部長\n955202\t975897\t我希望你們下次報告的時候都可以把國際法規一個一個來分享給國人跟立法委員我說的都對嘛不管今天我們講的兩岸人民關係條例入出國移民法或者是刑法對於暴力仇恨歧視跟鼓吹戰爭就是與法所不容而公權力當然要依法來執法好 下一頁\n977796\t999219\t我甚至要舉一個大法官釋字623號我們廳長可能比較熟悉他是針對為了防止消敏兒少性交易所以對於憲法保障的言論自由非絕對做出必要的因為他影響兒童的身心發展的重大公益\n999759\t1024318\t所以必須對言論自由採取必要的限制廳長你有沒有就這個部分簡要的跟大家分享因為大家可能都在講國家安全的那一塊我最後特別針對兒少的這一塊我們過去的大法官的解釋也都告訴我們保障言論自由非常重要但是對於傷害兒童身心發展的也是需要必進行管制的來廳長你可不可以\n1025879\t1054331\t剪刀剪刀說明嗎最後解釋最主要是針對那個兒少性交易防制條例29條是不是規定違憲做出來的解釋大法官也在闡釋就是說其實這個性交易的這個也是屬於商業言論所提供的訊息相關的廣告這樣子那為了保障他的內容必須是真實無誤導性而且交易目的交易合法為目的\n1055111\t1073025\t那所以應該受到憲法言論自由的保障但是同時也揭示言論自由的保障並不是毫無範圍的全部保護的可以用法律來明確規定所以我們的合照相關的法規並沒有違憲嗎它是合憲性的下一頁\n1073906\t1093187\t所以這是我最終的一個結論我上一次質詢的時候我也拿了這一頁但很不好意思我也很遺憾我的言論自由被斷章取義了被某些黨派的委員去剪成影片說吳思瑤說言論自由要嚴格管制我說的是說對於言論自由的限制\n1094181\t1112756\t要嚴格非常嚴謹非常嚴謹的去予以限制他的目的需要為重大破戒市政府利益就如同剛剛的兒少的事件或者是台北市政府針對國有器官他認為公權利益可能會有公共安全的危險對不對而且首都與目的之間必須有重要的關聯\n1113917\t1136967\t所以我希望透過這些國際案例的分享 國內法規的檢視以及我們大家都能夠判準的一個基礎的紅線我相信你去努力問 不管是賣菜的朋友 還是坐捷運的上班族言論自由是什麼 很重要很重要 言論自由沒有人可以強害在自由民主的台灣 大家都有這樣子的共識 但是\n1137907\t1156324\t有那個自由 不可以去說要台領導幾幾歲啊 不可以說叫我過來打台灣 血洗台灣這是正常的一般的公民朋友 我們的公民素養是非常高的所以謝謝主席今天排這個案 讓我們可以進一步的探討我也希望大家能夠站在法裡面 來看待這個嚴肅的問題\n1158986\t1174766\t鄭南榮是犧牲了他的生命來爭取跟捍衛言論自由所以這珍貴的言論自由不能被政治所誤用跟濫用這是我的開場 也是我的結論好 我們繼續加油 辛苦大家 謝謝好 謝謝 那我們接下來休息五分鐘\n","txt":"謝謝主席在我進入質詢之前我也有權宜問題要表達一下我非常支持剛剛主席所裁示還有王洪瑋委員所說的如果說來列席委員會被尋的官員要經一定程序的請假這是尊重委員會也是尊重召委所以今天如果有部分的官員沒有尋這樣子的程序是到現場主席剛剛召委才說才知道請假的話那當然不應該\n要檢討那要譴責我也保留我也覺得OK啦這是共同的決定那同樣我就要想到4月2號那一天上週三我們的排案召委叫做莊瑞雄委員他排案的是國會擴建簽件的進度報告邀請列席的官員是周萬來秘書長以及議事處的高百祥處長而當天呢\n現在坐在這裡的是吳昭偉 當天是莊瑞雄委員他七點就坐在這裡等著開會了到開會前 他手上拿著出席名單還是周萬來秘書長跟高處長 沒有請假 沒有請假所以我們的委員都很認真提早到場準備諮詢可是呢 居然會議時間開始昭偉才收到一張\n韓國瑜院長燙金的一個書函替周萬來秘書長請假所以如果比較這個標準當天當然在場的委員會的委員當然多數是民進黨的委員我們認為這就是不應當就同樣的標準居然是比今天的狀況還離譜喔主席還是今天到場的時候請假單已經有就是說已經有載明哪些人沒有辦法來\n當天的狀況是我們都在這裡請假單沒有周恩來要來 高百祥要來可是主席在那裡要已經宣布開會才姍姍來遲的一張還是由院長替秘書長請假\n這當然該譴責 同樣的標準當然該譴責 更何況當天韓院長的請假函居然是引用立法院各委員會組織法第二條為了替周恩來請假 什麼離譜的法條都可以來硬掰胡扯\n意思是說他當天引用的法條是說以後 我講白話文以後委員會排案審查的議案必須是由院會交付如果這樣成立的話主席今天沒有辦法排這個案欸因為這個專案報告並沒有經院會交付欸\n立法院每天各個委員會因應重大的事件因應大家關心的議案 召委的排案權當然可以排專案報告就如同今天吳召委所排的案子應當好好探討言論自由啊那為什麼當天韓國瑜院長為了護航周恩來為了護航義士不公的人員然後引用錯誤的法條\n給予他們不用來規避迴避監督的這個保護傘更進一步的剝奪了立法院委員排案的職權審議議案的職權如果那天韓國瑜院長引用的法條成立的話今天很遺憾啊這個專案報告沒有院會交付也不能排啊\n所以不要來剝奪立法委員的排案自由不要來剝奪立法委員的言論自由所以我同樣一樣的標準該譴責今天沒有經請假程序就沒有來的官員該譴責該檢討但是當天\n更加的嚴重離譜的開會之後才讓教委收到一張燙金的院長代替請假以後請問可以由卓院長行政院長在各個委員會開會當天然後現場提一個卓榮泰院長替法務部長鄭明謙請假卓榮泰院長替我們陸委會梁文傑副主委請假不能這樣嘛\n所以就程序 論程序 該譴責就譴責 標準一致就如同我今天要講的言論自由一樣好 謝謝主席 不好意思我表達了我的意見那沒問題 就這個部分我想說我這邊會思考一下看將來沒關係 我們都尊重您的採釋我只是說大家委員會標準一致今天各位委員的發言我也都尊重那我們的委員會是這樣 因為我當召委就是部會首長\n不是不能請假 如果真的有事情當然是可以請假那我們以後大概就是一個方式嘛就是我們可能多久前告訴我 然後讓我了解一下理由就這樣就好我從來不會認為不能請假而且我對於制度的要求就是一體適用不管是我們立法院的同仁或者是其他院的\n同仁都一樣就是一體適用非常謝謝主席不愧是檢察官所以我相信你一定會支持當天立法院民進黨團在這個會議上譴責周萬來的提案一體適用我們先定一個制度出來我們先講定一個制度以後就照那個制度走那如果之前沒有那個制度\n其實今天談的主題就跟我剛剛說的\n這個立法委員的排案自由也不容剝奪那言論自由也不是無法五天立法委員的排案自由不可剝奪但是他會受限於一些當然如果有法規排除的就不宜列案嘛\n但是言論自由一樣不是因為它是自由就可以無法無天它同樣要受制於法規的規範所以鼓吹戰爭仇恨及暴力都是法所不容就是世界皆准的不是只有在台灣我多次在委員會分享\n吳思瑤我個人從政是因為鄭南榮先生的自焚那時候我十多歲爭取百分之百的言論自由在那個時代對於一個青少年吳思瑤來講我是無比的震撼因此在公共事務的堅持跟捍衛上我們要爭取百分之百的自由\n但是呢以剛剛國民黨的委員的發言我真的要很遺憾的說當年鄭南榮先生之所以選擇非常極端的手段結束了他的生命來捍衛彰顯台灣需要言論自由當初他對抗的就是執政的威權獨裁的中國國民黨到今天我要說言論自由有兩種\n一種是絕對的言論自由人權的言論自由另外一種是被政客政黨濫用以政治為目的來操作的言論自由就這個標準來看大家心中有個判準今天剛剛大家都垂詢了陸委會的副主委我要說中配也有兩種\n一種是在台灣釋放的 支持武統血洗台灣的這種中配當然依法規 我支持公權力來執行另外一種中配是復查 柏中你知道嗎\n這個出版社的負責人他是中配他在台灣就因為出版了他的出版社出版了一些中國不愛不喜歡的出版品他到中國去被抓被監禁前陣子被判重刑他沒有經過公開的審判\n陸配有兩種國民黨人為什麼支持的是要血洗台灣鼓吹戰爭的陸配而我沒有看到國民黨的任何人出來聲援支持復查他同樣是陸配他在中國遭受的司法迫害國民黨人沒有人站出來替他說話所以說國民黨沒有變\n本質上沒有變把言論自由拿來作為政治操弄的工具這一點沒有變但國民黨某種程度也變了過去的國民黨反共現在的國民黨不反共我今天所說的任何話是我的言論自由我願意受公平這是言論自由的範疇但是我沒有逾越任何法律的規範下頁部長您知道有國有器官這紀錄片嗎\n很抱歉我沒有看過這一部紀錄片是加拿大的紀錄片花了七年的時間他們拍攝了而且是具體的一個軍醫啊他是親眼目擊者\n當事者他的見證中國為了高官可以延壽為了高官的生命要延長不惜對這些被迫害者多數是法輪功的異議分子進行器官的活摘這部紀錄片拍攝七年前陣子我們都還希望他能夠獲得奧斯卡的紀錄片的提名\n那這個紀錄片呢在台灣各縣是播放在澎湖播放的時候受到恐嚇說要如果你敢播的話呢就要給你放什麼樣的炸彈還是什麼的但是澎湖縣政府不受威脅他們認為表意自由言論自由創意創作自由不容被打壓這是在澎湖下一頁但是換了到台北市\n您知道嗎 同樣的一部片在台北市是青年局辦的 本來要播後來就喊咔了同樣的理由是說他們也接獲了恐嚇性揚言要在播放電影的現場進行槍擊投擲汽油彈所以台北市政府就決定喊咔不辦他基本上受到的恐嚇跟澎湖是一樣的我在這裡沒有探討\n縣市政府的決策但我要說的是兩個縣市政府他對於看待這件事情的立場是不同的這就是判準的自由以及依法執行有不同狀況的判準但我要問如果這一個打恐嚇電話的人說我要來槍擊要來汽油彈這是言論自由嗎\n當然不是言論自由嘛 對不對所以台北市政府就基於這個他認為市民的安全更重要他認為那個當下要喊卡\n我用這個案例來分享就是公權力的指使也就是我們在言論自由如果對於公共利益造成及時危險迫害重大而且是及時的話基於公共利益政府公權力是可以採取作為的所以以國有器官的這件事情台北市政府一度喊卡我非常希望台北市政府能夠來捍衛創作自由讓它可以恢復播放\n但我不評論市政府的作為但我要說的公權力在那個當下他有他判準的因為恐嚇要暴力丟汽油彈槍擊就不是言論自由嘛對不對他就是犯罪嘛我們要預防嘛所以說所謂的國家安全跟言論自由他不是單選題他有很多複雜的問題但是我希望台灣的政治工作者立法委員不要簡單化\n不要政治化下一頁言論自由應有限制是放諸四海皆准我上次也分享過不管是聯合國的公民與政治權利公約或者是聯合國的言論自由特別報告我今天特別找出來的是這個聯合國的言論自由特別報告2001年就頒布了都再一次的揭示鼓吹戰爭仇恨煽動歧視等言論都應當\n在民主的程序下去進行必要的限制國際的規範去這樣下業我今天也花了很多時間我去整理了各國的立法\n德國禁止宣揚納粹的意識形態明確的在他們的刑法來規範面對歷史的傷痕要慎防種族仇恨的意識所以德國的刑法針對這些納粹的言論鼓吹都是有法的規範跟限制也有刑責下一頁看看英國對於煽動恐怖主義\n也是在特別立了一個恐怖主義法2006年所以任何的煽動恐怖主義行為的言論就屬犯罪這是英國的立法\n要有重罪15年下一頁看看法國他們同樣刑法來禁止鼓吹恐怖主義的行為而且更與時俱進因為現在的社群網路的使用非常的發達它造成的危害是更及時的所以法國甚至進一步的在刑法的修正當中嚴格針對網路煽動或鼓吹恐怖主義的言論是加重刑罰的再下一頁\n芬蘭在世界都被認可是自由度非常高的自由民主人權的國家但是芬蘭也有長期以來因為地緣政治承受戰爭的這種威嚇所以他們特別在刑法當中針對軍事或政治危機會被煽動戰爭也處以重刑\n這是芬蘭跟台灣的狀況非常接近下一頁日本日本不管是中央的立法仇恨言論對策法或是地方縣市政府對於仇恨言論都有不同程度的立法來予以禁止再下一頁\n當然我分享過美國最高法院九位大法官已自覺對於TikTok的禁令是核限的他們認為國家安全的風險跟TikTok1.7億用戶的自由權利 孰高孰低他們選擇了國家安全 這是最新的一個判例這些判例都告訴我們什麼呢 夏業\n台灣跟國際接軌言論自由不論是保障面人權面絕對百分之百言論自由的那個面向憲法層次的或是國際公約層次的不論在保障或是必要的限制立法限制針對仇恨戰爭暴力等等都是截然所以台灣的國內法的規範有違逆國際局勢或是台灣有因為這樣就戒嚴了嗎部長\n我希望你們下次報告的時候都可以把國際法規一個一個來分享給國人跟立法委員我說的都對嘛不管今天我們講的兩岸人民關係條例入出國移民法或者是刑法對於暴力仇恨歧視跟鼓吹戰爭就是與法所不容而公權力當然要依法來執法好 下一頁\n我甚至要舉一個大法官釋字623號我們廳長可能比較熟悉他是針對為了防止消敏兒少性交易所以對於憲法保障的言論自由非絕對做出必要的因為他影響兒童的身心發展的重大公益\n所以必須對言論自由採取必要的限制廳長你有沒有就這個部分簡要的跟大家分享因為大家可能都在講國家安全的那一塊我最後特別針對兒少的這一塊我們過去的大法官的解釋也都告訴我們保障言論自由非常重要但是對於傷害兒童身心發展的也是需要必進行管制的來廳長你可不可以\n剪刀剪刀說明嗎最後解釋最主要是針對那個兒少性交易防制條例29條是不是規定違憲做出來的解釋大法官也在闡釋就是說其實這個性交易的這個也是屬於商業言論所提供的訊息相關的廣告這樣子那為了保障他的內容必須是真實無誤導性而且交易目的交易合法為目的\n那所以應該受到憲法言論自由的保障但是同時也揭示言論自由的保障並不是毫無範圍的全部保護的可以用法律來明確規定所以我們的合照相關的法規並沒有違憲嗎它是合憲性的下一頁\n所以這是我最終的一個結論我上一次質詢的時候我也拿了這一頁但很不好意思我也很遺憾我的言論自由被斷章取義了被某些黨派的委員去剪成影片說吳思瑤說言論自由要嚴格管制我說的是說對於言論自由的限制\n要嚴格非常嚴謹非常嚴謹的去予以限制他的目的需要為重大破戒市政府利益就如同剛剛的兒少的事件或者是台北市政府針對國有器官他認為公權利益可能會有公共安全的危險對不對而且首都與目的之間必須有重要的關聯\n所以我希望透過這些國際案例的分享 國內法規的檢視以及我們大家都能夠判準的一個基礎的紅線我相信你去努力問 不管是賣菜的朋友 還是坐捷運的上班族言論自由是什麼 很重要很重要 言論自由沒有人可以強害在自由民主的台灣 大家都有這樣子的共識 但是\n有那個自由 不可以去說要台領導幾幾歲啊 不可以說叫我過來打台灣 血洗台灣這是正常的一般的公民朋友 我們的公民素養是非常高的所以謝謝主席今天排這個案 讓我們可以進一步的探討我也希望大家能夠站在法裡面 來看待這個嚴肅的問題\n鄭南榮是犧牲了他的生命來爭取跟捍衛言論自由所以這珍貴的言論自由不能被政治所誤用跟濫用這是我的開場 也是我的結論好 我們繼續加油 辛苦大家 謝謝好 謝謝 那我們接下來休息五分鐘\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.438 --> 00:36.788\n謝謝主席在我進入質詢之前我也有權宜問題要表達一下我非常支持剛剛主席所裁示還有王洪瑋委員所說的如果說來列席委員會被尋的官員要經一定程序的請假這是尊重委員會也是尊重召委所以今天如果有部分的官員沒有尋這樣子的程序是到現場主席剛剛召委才說才知道請假的話那當然不應該\n\n00:37.648 --> 00:59.359\n要檢討那要譴責我也保留我也覺得OK啦這是共同的決定那同樣我就要想到4月2號那一天上週三我們的排案召委叫做莊瑞雄委員他排案的是國會擴建簽件的進度報告邀請列席的官員是周萬來秘書長以及議事處的高百祥處長而當天呢\n\n01:02.649 --> 01:25.131\n現在坐在這裡的是吳昭偉當天是莊瑞雄委員他七點就坐在這裡等著開會了到開會前他手上拿著出席名單還是周萬來秘書長跟高處長沒有請假沒有請假所以我們的委員都很認真提早到場準備諮詢可是呢居然會議時間開始昭偉才收到一張\n\n01:27.010 --> 01:53.964\n韓國瑜院長燙金的一個書函替周萬來秘書長請假所以如果比較這個標準當天當然在場的委員會的委員當然多數是民進黨的委員我們認為這就是不應當就同樣的標準居然是比今天的狀況還離譜喔主席還是今天到場的時候請假單已經有就是說已經有載明哪些人沒有辦法來\n\n01:55.104 --> 02:07.500\n當天的狀況是我們都在這裡請假單沒有周恩來要來高百祥要來可是主席在那裡要已經宣布開會才姍姍來遲的一張還是由院長替秘書長請假\n\n02:10.261 --> 02:31.211\n這當然該譴責同樣的標準當然該譴責更何況當天韓院長的請假函居然是引用立法院各委員會組織法第二條為了替周恩來請假什麼離譜的法條都可以來硬掰胡扯\n\n02:32.455 --> 02:46.259\n意思是說他當天引用的法條是說以後我講白話文以後委員會排案審查的議案必須是由院會交付如果這樣成立的話主席今天沒有辦法排這個案欸因為這個專案報告並沒有經院會交付欸\n\n02:51.101 --> 03:15.066\n立法院每天各個委員會因應重大的事件因應大家關心的議案召委的排案權當然可以排專案報告就如同今天吳召委所排的案子應當好好探討言論自由啊那為什麼當天韓國瑜院長為了護航周恩來為了護航義士不公的人員然後引用錯誤的法條\n\n03:16.989 --> 03:41.715\n給予他們不用來規避迴避監督的這個保護傘更進一步的剝奪了立法院委員排案的職權審議議案的職權如果那天韓國瑜院長引用的法條成立的話今天很遺憾啊這個專案報告沒有院會交付也不能排啊\n\n03:42.754 --> 03:57.725\n所以不要來剝奪立法委員的排案自由不要來剝奪立法委員的言論自由所以我同樣一樣的標準該譴責今天沒有經請假程序就沒有來的官員該譴責該檢討但是當天\n\n04:03.001 --> 04:25.220\n更加的嚴重離譜的開會之後才讓教委收到一張燙金的院長代替請假以後請問可以由卓院長行政院長在各個委員會開會當天然後現場提一個卓榮泰院長替法務部長鄭明謙請假卓榮泰院長替我們陸委會梁文傑副主委請假不能這樣嘛\n\n04:27.938 --> 04:53.055\n所以就程序論程序該譴責就譴責標準一致就如同我今天要講的言論自由一樣好謝謝主席不好意思我表達了我的意見那沒問題就這個部分我想說我這邊會思考一下看將來沒關係我們都尊重您的採釋我只是說大家委員會標準一致今天各位委員的發言我也都尊重那我們的委員會是這樣因為我當召委就是部會首長\n\n04:54.116 --> 05:16.621\n不是不能請假如果真的有事情當然是可以請假那我們以後大概就是一個方式嘛就是我們可能多久前告訴我然後讓我了解一下理由就這樣就好我從來不會認為不能請假而且我對於制度的要求就是一體適用不管是我們立法院的同仁或者是其他院的\n\n05:17.537 --> 05:37.987\n同仁都一樣就是一體適用非常謝謝主席不愧是檢察官所以我相信你一定會支持當天立法院民進黨團在這個會議上譴責周萬來的提案一體適用我們先定一個制度出來我們先講定一個制度以後就照那個制度走那如果之前沒有那個制度\n\n05:38.527 --> 05:39.388\n其實今天談的主題就跟我剛剛說的\n\n05:57.364 --> 06:12.110\n這個立法委員的排案自由也不容剝奪那言論自由也不是無法五天立法委員的排案自由不可剝奪但是他會受限於一些當然如果有法規排除的就不宜列案嘛\n\n06:12.930 --> 06:31.622\n但是言論自由一樣不是因為它是自由就可以無法無天它同樣要受制於法規的規範所以鼓吹戰爭仇恨及暴力都是法所不容就是世界皆准的不是只有在台灣我多次在委員會分享\n\n06:33.104 --> 06:50.692\n吳思瑤我個人從政是因為鄭南榮先生的自焚那時候我十多歲爭取百分之百的言論自由在那個時代對於一個青少年吳思瑤來講我是無比的震撼因此在公共事務的堅持跟捍衛上我們要爭取百分之百的自由\n\n06:51.667 --> 07:10.296\n但是呢以剛剛國民黨的委員的發言我真的要很遺憾的說當年鄭南榮先生之所以選擇非常極端的手段結束了他的生命來捍衛彰顯台灣需要言論自由當初他對抗的就是執政的威權獨裁的中國國民黨到今天我要說言論自由有兩種\n\n07:16.408 --> 07:38.204\n一種是絕對的言論自由人權的言論自由另外一種是被政客政黨濫用以政治為目的來操作的言論自由就這個標準來看大家心中有個判準今天剛剛大家都垂詢了陸委會的副主委我要說中配也有兩種\n\n07:39.676 --> 07:55.833\n一種是在台灣釋放的支持武統血洗台灣的這種中配當然依法規我支持公權力來執行另外一種中配是復查柏中你知道嗎\n\n07:57.473 --> 08:14.663\n這個出版社的負責人他是中配他在台灣就因為出版了他的出版社出版了一些中國不愛不喜歡的出版品他到中國去被抓被監禁前陣子被判重刑他沒有經過公開的審判\n\n08:16.054 --> 08:37.282\n陸配有兩種國民黨人為什麼支持的是要血洗台灣鼓吹戰爭的陸配而我沒有看到國民黨的任何人出來聲援支持復查他同樣是陸配他在中國遭受的司法迫害國民黨人沒有人站出來替他說話所以說國民黨沒有變\n\n08:40.441 --> 09:08.554\n本質上沒有變把言論自由拿來作為政治操弄的工具這一點沒有變但國民黨某種程度也變了過去的國民黨反共現在的國民黨不反共我今天所說的任何話是我的言論自由我願意受公平這是言論自由的範疇但是我沒有逾越任何法律的規範下頁部長您知道有國有器官這紀錄片嗎\n\n09:11.909 --> 09:24.827\n很抱歉我沒有看過這一部紀錄片是加拿大的紀錄片花了七年的時間他們拍攝了而且是具體的一個軍醫啊他是親眼目擊者\n\n09:26.125 --> 09:47.925\n當事者他的見證中國為了高官可以延壽為了高官的生命要延長不惜對這些被迫害者多數是法輪功的異議分子進行器官的活摘這部紀錄片拍攝七年前陣子我們都還希望他能夠獲得奧斯卡的紀錄片的提名\n\n09:51.127 --> 10:18.741\n那這個紀錄片呢在台灣各縣是播放在澎湖播放的時候受到恐嚇說要如果你敢播的話呢就要給你放什麼樣的炸彈還是什麼的但是澎湖縣政府不受威脅他們認為表意自由言論自由創意創作自由不容被打壓這是在澎湖下一頁但是換了到台北市\n\n10:19.821 --> 10:45.043\n您知道嗎同樣的一部片在台北市是青年局辦的本來要播後來就喊咔了同樣的理由是說他們也接獲了恐嚇性揚言要在播放電影的現場進行槍擊投擲汽油彈所以台北市政府就決定喊咔不辦他基本上受到的恐嚇跟澎湖是一樣的我在這裡沒有探討\n\n10:46.614 --> 11:09.157\n縣市政府的決策但我要說的是兩個縣市政府他對於看待這件事情的立場是不同的這就是判準的自由以及依法執行有不同狀況的判準但我要問如果這一個打恐嚇電話的人說我要來槍擊要來汽油彈這是言論自由嗎\n\n11:11.192 --> 11:19.498\n當然不是言論自由嘛對不對所以台北市政府就基於這個他認為市民的安全更重要他認為那個當下要喊卡\n\n11:20.973 --> 11:49.778\n我用這個案例來分享就是公權力的指使也就是我們在言論自由如果對於公共利益造成及時危險迫害重大而且是及時的話基於公共利益政府公權力是可以採取作為的所以以國有器官的這件事情台北市政府一度喊卡我非常希望台北市政府能夠來捍衛創作自由讓它可以恢復播放\n\n11:50.731 --> 12:16.628\n但我不評論市政府的作為但我要說的公權力在那個當下他有他判準的因為恐嚇要暴力丟汽油彈槍擊就不是言論自由嘛對不對他就是犯罪嘛我們要預防嘛所以說所謂的國家安全跟言論自由他不是單選題他有很多複雜的問題但是我希望台灣的政治工作者立法委員不要簡單化\n\n12:18.311 --> 12:45.184\n不要政治化下一頁言論自由應有限制是放諸四海皆准我上次也分享過不管是聯合國的公民與政治權利公約或者是聯合國的言論自由特別報告我今天特別找出來的是這個聯合國的言論自由特別報告2001年就頒布了都再一次的揭示鼓吹戰爭仇恨煽動歧視等言論都應當\n\n12:47.685 --> 12:59.734\n在民主的程序下去進行必要的限制國際的規範去這樣下業我今天也花了很多時間我去整理了各國的立法\n\n13:00.868 --> 13:27.022\n德國禁止宣揚納粹的意識形態明確的在他們的刑法來規範面對歷史的傷痕要慎防種族仇恨的意識所以德國的刑法針對這些納粹的言論鼓吹都是有法的規範跟限制也有刑責下一頁看看英國對於煽動恐怖主義\n\n13:28.291 --> 13:41.267\n也是在特別立了一個恐怖主義法2006年所以任何的煽動恐怖主義行為的言論就屬犯罪這是英國的立法\n\n13:42.267 --> 14:10.118\n要有重罪15年下一頁看看法國他們同樣刑法來禁止鼓吹恐怖主義的行為而且更與時俱進因為現在的社群網路的使用非常的發達它造成的危害是更及時的所以法國甚至進一步的在刑法的修正當中嚴格針對網路煽動或鼓吹恐怖主義的言論是加重刑罰的再下一頁\n\n14:12.975 --> 14:34.981\n芬蘭在世界都被認可是自由度非常高的自由民主人權的國家但是芬蘭也有長期以來因為地緣政治承受戰爭的這種威嚇所以他們特別在刑法當中針對軍事或政治危機會被煽動戰爭也處以重刑\n\n14:39.262 --> 14:56.879\n這是芬蘭跟台灣的狀況非常接近下一頁日本日本不管是中央的立法仇恨言論對策法或是地方縣市政府對於仇恨言論都有不同程度的立法來予以禁止再下一頁\n\n14:58.052 --> 15:23.168\n當然我分享過美國最高法院九位大法官已自覺對於TikTok的禁令是核限的他們認為國家安全的風險跟TikTok1.7億用戶的自由權利孰高孰低他們選擇了國家安全這是最新的一個判例這些判例都告訴我們什麼呢夏業\n\n15:24.574 --> 15:51.389\n台灣跟國際接軌言論自由不論是保障面人權面絕對百分之百言論自由的那個面向憲法層次的或是國際公約層次的不論在保障或是必要的限制立法限制針對仇恨戰爭暴力等等都是截然所以台灣的國內法的規範有違逆國際局勢或是台灣有因為這樣就戒嚴了嗎部長\n\n15:55.202 --> 16:15.897\n我希望你們下次報告的時候都可以把國際法規一個一個來分享給國人跟立法委員我說的都對嘛不管今天我們講的兩岸人民關係條例入出國移民法或者是刑法對於暴力仇恨歧視跟鼓吹戰爭就是與法所不容而公權力當然要依法來執法好下一頁\n\n16:17.796 --> 16:39.219\n我甚至要舉一個大法官釋字623號我們廳長可能比較熟悉他是針對為了防止消敏兒少性交易所以對於憲法保障的言論自由非絕對做出必要的因為他影響兒童的身心發展的重大公益\n\n16:39.759 --> 17:04.318\n所以必須對言論自由採取必要的限制廳長你有沒有就這個部分簡要的跟大家分享因為大家可能都在講國家安全的那一塊我最後特別針對兒少的這一塊我們過去的大法官的解釋也都告訴我們保障言論自由非常重要但是對於傷害兒童身心發展的也是需要必進行管制的來廳長你可不可以\n\n17:05.879 --> 17:34.331\n剪刀剪刀說明嗎最後解釋最主要是針對那個兒少性交易防制條例29條是不是規定違憲做出來的解釋大法官也在闡釋就是說其實這個性交易的這個也是屬於商業言論所提供的訊息相關的廣告這樣子那為了保障他的內容必須是真實無誤導性而且交易目的交易合法為目的\n\n17:35.111 --> 17:53.025\n那所以應該受到憲法言論自由的保障但是同時也揭示言論自由的保障並不是毫無範圍的全部保護的可以用法律來明確規定所以我們的合照相關的法規並沒有違憲嗎它是合憲性的下一頁\n\n17:53.906 --> 18:13.187\n所以這是我最終的一個結論我上一次質詢的時候我也拿了這一頁但很不好意思我也很遺憾我的言論自由被斷章取義了被某些黨派的委員去剪成影片說吳思瑤說言論自由要嚴格管制我說的是說對於言論自由的限制\n\n18:14.181 --> 18:32.756\n要嚴格非常嚴謹非常嚴謹的去予以限制他的目的需要為重大破戒市政府利益就如同剛剛的兒少的事件或者是台北市政府針對國有器官他認為公權利益可能會有公共安全的危險對不對而且首都與目的之間必須有重要的關聯\n\n18:33.917 --> 18:56.967\n所以我希望透過這些國際案例的分享國內法規的檢視以及我們大家都能夠判準的一個基礎的紅線我相信你去努力問不管是賣菜的朋友還是坐捷運的上班族言論自由是什麼很重要很重要言論自由沒有人可以強害在自由民主的台灣大家都有這樣子的共識但是\n\n18:57.907 --> 19:16.324\n有那個自由不可以去說要台領導幾幾歲啊不可以說叫我過來打台灣血洗台灣這是正常的一般的公民朋友我們的公民素養是非常高的所以謝謝主席今天排這個案讓我們可以進一步的探討我也希望大家能夠站在法裡面來看待這個嚴肅的問題\n\n19:18.986 --> 19:34.766\n鄭南榮是犧牲了他的生命來爭取跟捍衛言論自由所以這珍貴的言論自由不能被政治所誤用跟濫用這是我的開場也是我的結論好我們繼續加油辛苦大家謝謝好謝謝那我們接下來休息五分鐘\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.438,"end":36.788,"text":"謝謝主席在我進入質詢之前我也有權宜問題要表達一下我非常支持剛剛主席所裁示還有王洪瑋委員所說的如果說來列席委員會被尋的官員要經一定程序的請假這是尊重委員會也是尊重召委所以今天如果有部分的官員沒有尋這樣子的程序是到現場主席剛剛召委才說才知道請假的話那當然不應該"},{"start":37.648,"end":59.359,"text":"要檢討那要譴責我也保留我也覺得OK啦這是共同的決定那同樣我就要想到4月2號那一天上週三我們的排案召委叫做莊瑞雄委員他排案的是國會擴建簽件的進度報告邀請列席的官員是周萬來秘書長以及議事處的高百祥處長而當天呢"},{"start":62.649,"end":85.131,"text":"現在坐在這裡的是吳昭偉 當天是莊瑞雄委員他七點就坐在這裡等著開會了到開會前 他手上拿著出席名單還是周萬來秘書長跟高處長 沒有請假 沒有請假所以我們的委員都很認真提早到場準備諮詢可是呢 居然會議時間開始昭偉才收到一張"},{"start":87.01,"end":113.964,"text":"韓國瑜院長燙金的一個書函替周萬來秘書長請假所以如果比較這個標準當天當然在場的委員會的委員當然多數是民進黨的委員我們認為這就是不應當就同樣的標準居然是比今天的狀況還離譜喔主席還是今天到場的時候請假單已經有就是說已經有載明哪些人沒有辦法來"},{"start":115.104,"end":127.5,"text":"當天的狀況是我們都在這裡請假單沒有周恩來要來 高百祥要來可是主席在那裡要已經宣布開會才姍姍來遲的一張還是由院長替秘書長請假"},{"start":130.261,"end":151.211,"text":"這當然該譴責 同樣的標準當然該譴責 更何況當天韓院長的請假函居然是引用立法院各委員會組織法第二條為了替周恩來請假 什麼離譜的法條都可以來硬掰胡扯"},{"start":152.455,"end":166.259,"text":"意思是說他當天引用的法條是說以後 我講白話文以後委員會排案審查的議案必須是由院會交付如果這樣成立的話主席今天沒有辦法排這個案欸因為這個專案報告並沒有經院會交付欸"},{"start":171.101,"end":195.066,"text":"立法院每天各個委員會因應重大的事件因應大家關心的議案 召委的排案權當然可以排專案報告就如同今天吳召委所排的案子應當好好探討言論自由啊那為什麼當天韓國瑜院長為了護航周恩來為了護航義士不公的人員然後引用錯誤的法條"},{"start":196.989,"end":221.715,"text":"給予他們不用來規避迴避監督的這個保護傘更進一步的剝奪了立法院委員排案的職權審議議案的職權如果那天韓國瑜院長引用的法條成立的話今天很遺憾啊這個專案報告沒有院會交付也不能排啊"},{"start":222.754,"end":237.725,"text":"所以不要來剝奪立法委員的排案自由不要來剝奪立法委員的言論自由所以我同樣一樣的標準該譴責今天沒有經請假程序就沒有來的官員該譴責該檢討但是當天"},{"start":243.001,"end":265.22,"text":"更加的嚴重離譜的開會之後才讓教委收到一張燙金的院長代替請假以後請問可以由卓院長行政院長在各個委員會開會當天然後現場提一個卓榮泰院長替法務部長鄭明謙請假卓榮泰院長替我們陸委會梁文傑副主委請假不能這樣嘛"},{"start":267.938,"end":293.055,"text":"所以就程序 論程序 該譴責就譴責 標準一致就如同我今天要講的言論自由一樣好 謝謝主席 不好意思我表達了我的意見那沒問題 就這個部分我想說我這邊會思考一下看將來沒關係 我們都尊重您的採釋我只是說大家委員會標準一致今天各位委員的發言我也都尊重那我們的委員會是這樣 因為我當召委就是部會首長"},{"start":294.116,"end":316.621,"text":"不是不能請假 如果真的有事情當然是可以請假那我們以後大概就是一個方式嘛就是我們可能多久前告訴我 然後讓我了解一下理由就這樣就好我從來不會認為不能請假而且我對於制度的要求就是一體適用不管是我們立法院的同仁或者是其他院的"},{"start":317.537,"end":337.987,"text":"同仁都一樣就是一體適用非常謝謝主席不愧是檢察官所以我相信你一定會支持當天立法院民進黨團在這個會議上譴責周萬來的提案一體適用我們先定一個制度出來我們先講定一個制度以後就照那個制度走那如果之前沒有那個制度"},{"start":338.527,"end":339.388,"text":"其實今天談的主題就跟我剛剛說的"},{"start":357.364,"end":372.11,"text":"這個立法委員的排案自由也不容剝奪那言論自由也不是無法五天立法委員的排案自由不可剝奪但是他會受限於一些當然如果有法規排除的就不宜列案嘛"},{"start":372.93,"end":391.622,"text":"但是言論自由一樣不是因為它是自由就可以無法無天它同樣要受制於法規的規範所以鼓吹戰爭仇恨及暴力都是法所不容就是世界皆准的不是只有在台灣我多次在委員會分享"},{"start":393.104,"end":410.692,"text":"吳思瑤我個人從政是因為鄭南榮先生的自焚那時候我十多歲爭取百分之百的言論自由在那個時代對於一個青少年吳思瑤來講我是無比的震撼因此在公共事務的堅持跟捍衛上我們要爭取百分之百的自由"},{"start":411.667,"end":430.296,"text":"但是呢以剛剛國民黨的委員的發言我真的要很遺憾的說當年鄭南榮先生之所以選擇非常極端的手段結束了他的生命來捍衛彰顯台灣需要言論自由當初他對抗的就是執政的威權獨裁的中國國民黨到今天我要說言論自由有兩種"},{"start":436.408,"end":458.204,"text":"一種是絕對的言論自由人權的言論自由另外一種是被政客政黨濫用以政治為目的來操作的言論自由就這個標準來看大家心中有個判準今天剛剛大家都垂詢了陸委會的副主委我要說中配也有兩種"},{"start":459.676,"end":475.833,"text":"一種是在台灣釋放的 支持武統血洗台灣的這種中配當然依法規 我支持公權力來執行另外一種中配是復查 柏中你知道嗎"},{"start":477.473,"end":494.663,"text":"這個出版社的負責人他是中配他在台灣就因為出版了他的出版社出版了一些中國不愛不喜歡的出版品他到中國去被抓被監禁前陣子被判重刑他沒有經過公開的審判"},{"start":496.054,"end":517.282,"text":"陸配有兩種國民黨人為什麼支持的是要血洗台灣鼓吹戰爭的陸配而我沒有看到國民黨的任何人出來聲援支持復查他同樣是陸配他在中國遭受的司法迫害國民黨人沒有人站出來替他說話所以說國民黨沒有變"},{"start":520.441,"end":548.554,"text":"本質上沒有變把言論自由拿來作為政治操弄的工具這一點沒有變但國民黨某種程度也變了過去的國民黨反共現在的國民黨不反共我今天所說的任何話是我的言論自由我願意受公平這是言論自由的範疇但是我沒有逾越任何法律的規範下頁部長您知道有國有器官這紀錄片嗎"},{"start":551.909,"end":564.827,"text":"很抱歉我沒有看過這一部紀錄片是加拿大的紀錄片花了七年的時間他們拍攝了而且是具體的一個軍醫啊他是親眼目擊者"},{"start":566.125,"end":587.925,"text":"當事者他的見證中國為了高官可以延壽為了高官的生命要延長不惜對這些被迫害者多數是法輪功的異議分子進行器官的活摘這部紀錄片拍攝七年前陣子我們都還希望他能夠獲得奧斯卡的紀錄片的提名"},{"start":591.127,"end":618.741,"text":"那這個紀錄片呢在台灣各縣是播放在澎湖播放的時候受到恐嚇說要如果你敢播的話呢就要給你放什麼樣的炸彈還是什麼的但是澎湖縣政府不受威脅他們認為表意自由言論自由創意創作自由不容被打壓這是在澎湖下一頁但是換了到台北市"},{"start":619.821,"end":645.043,"text":"您知道嗎 同樣的一部片在台北市是青年局辦的 本來要播後來就喊咔了同樣的理由是說他們也接獲了恐嚇性揚言要在播放電影的現場進行槍擊投擲汽油彈所以台北市政府就決定喊咔不辦他基本上受到的恐嚇跟澎湖是一樣的我在這裡沒有探討"},{"start":646.614,"end":669.157,"text":"縣市政府的決策但我要說的是兩個縣市政府他對於看待這件事情的立場是不同的這就是判準的自由以及依法執行有不同狀況的判準但我要問如果這一個打恐嚇電話的人說我要來槍擊要來汽油彈這是言論自由嗎"},{"start":671.192,"end":679.498,"text":"當然不是言論自由嘛 對不對所以台北市政府就基於這個他認為市民的安全更重要他認為那個當下要喊卡"},{"start":680.973,"end":709.778,"text":"我用這個案例來分享就是公權力的指使也就是我們在言論自由如果對於公共利益造成及時危險迫害重大而且是及時的話基於公共利益政府公權力是可以採取作為的所以以國有器官的這件事情台北市政府一度喊卡我非常希望台北市政府能夠來捍衛創作自由讓它可以恢復播放"},{"start":710.731,"end":736.628,"text":"但我不評論市政府的作為但我要說的公權力在那個當下他有他判準的因為恐嚇要暴力丟汽油彈槍擊就不是言論自由嘛對不對他就是犯罪嘛我們要預防嘛所以說所謂的國家安全跟言論自由他不是單選題他有很多複雜的問題但是我希望台灣的政治工作者立法委員不要簡單化"},{"start":738.311,"end":765.184,"text":"不要政治化下一頁言論自由應有限制是放諸四海皆准我上次也分享過不管是聯合國的公民與政治權利公約或者是聯合國的言論自由特別報告我今天特別找出來的是這個聯合國的言論自由特別報告2001年就頒布了都再一次的揭示鼓吹戰爭仇恨煽動歧視等言論都應當"},{"start":767.685,"end":779.734,"text":"在民主的程序下去進行必要的限制國際的規範去這樣下業我今天也花了很多時間我去整理了各國的立法"},{"start":780.868,"end":807.022,"text":"德國禁止宣揚納粹的意識形態明確的在他們的刑法來規範面對歷史的傷痕要慎防種族仇恨的意識所以德國的刑法針對這些納粹的言論鼓吹都是有法的規範跟限制也有刑責下一頁看看英國對於煽動恐怖主義"},{"start":808.291,"end":821.267,"text":"也是在特別立了一個恐怖主義法2006年所以任何的煽動恐怖主義行為的言論就屬犯罪這是英國的立法"},{"start":822.267,"end":850.118,"text":"要有重罪15年下一頁看看法國他們同樣刑法來禁止鼓吹恐怖主義的行為而且更與時俱進因為現在的社群網路的使用非常的發達它造成的危害是更及時的所以法國甚至進一步的在刑法的修正當中嚴格針對網路煽動或鼓吹恐怖主義的言論是加重刑罰的再下一頁"},{"start":852.975,"end":874.981,"text":"芬蘭在世界都被認可是自由度非常高的自由民主人權的國家但是芬蘭也有長期以來因為地緣政治承受戰爭的這種威嚇所以他們特別在刑法當中針對軍事或政治危機會被煽動戰爭也處以重刑"},{"start":879.262,"end":896.879,"text":"這是芬蘭跟台灣的狀況非常接近下一頁日本日本不管是中央的立法仇恨言論對策法或是地方縣市政府對於仇恨言論都有不同程度的立法來予以禁止再下一頁"},{"start":898.052,"end":923.168,"text":"當然我分享過美國最高法院九位大法官已自覺對於TikTok的禁令是核限的他們認為國家安全的風險跟TikTok1.7億用戶的自由權利 孰高孰低他們選擇了國家安全 這是最新的一個判例這些判例都告訴我們什麼呢 夏業"},{"start":924.574,"end":951.389,"text":"台灣跟國際接軌言論自由不論是保障面人權面絕對百分之百言論自由的那個面向憲法層次的或是國際公約層次的不論在保障或是必要的限制立法限制針對仇恨戰爭暴力等等都是截然所以台灣的國內法的規範有違逆國際局勢或是台灣有因為這樣就戒嚴了嗎部長"},{"start":955.202,"end":975.897,"text":"我希望你們下次報告的時候都可以把國際法規一個一個來分享給國人跟立法委員我說的都對嘛不管今天我們講的兩岸人民關係條例入出國移民法或者是刑法對於暴力仇恨歧視跟鼓吹戰爭就是與法所不容而公權力當然要依法來執法好 下一頁"},{"start":977.796,"end":999.219,"text":"我甚至要舉一個大法官釋字623號我們廳長可能比較熟悉他是針對為了防止消敏兒少性交易所以對於憲法保障的言論自由非絕對做出必要的因為他影響兒童的身心發展的重大公益"},{"start":999.759,"end":1024.318,"text":"所以必須對言論自由採取必要的限制廳長你有沒有就這個部分簡要的跟大家分享因為大家可能都在講國家安全的那一塊我最後特別針對兒少的這一塊我們過去的大法官的解釋也都告訴我們保障言論自由非常重要但是對於傷害兒童身心發展的也是需要必進行管制的來廳長你可不可以"},{"start":1025.879,"end":1054.331,"text":"剪刀剪刀說明嗎最後解釋最主要是針對那個兒少性交易防制條例29條是不是規定違憲做出來的解釋大法官也在闡釋就是說其實這個性交易的這個也是屬於商業言論所提供的訊息相關的廣告這樣子那為了保障他的內容必須是真實無誤導性而且交易目的交易合法為目的"},{"start":1055.111,"end":1073.025,"text":"那所以應該受到憲法言論自由的保障但是同時也揭示言論自由的保障並不是毫無範圍的全部保護的可以用法律來明確規定所以我們的合照相關的法規並沒有違憲嗎它是合憲性的下一頁"},{"start":1073.906,"end":1093.187,"text":"所以這是我最終的一個結論我上一次質詢的時候我也拿了這一頁但很不好意思我也很遺憾我的言論自由被斷章取義了被某些黨派的委員去剪成影片說吳思瑤說言論自由要嚴格管制我說的是說對於言論自由的限制"},{"start":1094.181,"end":1112.756,"text":"要嚴格非常嚴謹非常嚴謹的去予以限制他的目的需要為重大破戒市政府利益就如同剛剛的兒少的事件或者是台北市政府針對國有器官他認為公權利益可能會有公共安全的危險對不對而且首都與目的之間必須有重要的關聯"},{"start":1113.917,"end":1136.967,"text":"所以我希望透過這些國際案例的分享 國內法規的檢視以及我們大家都能夠判準的一個基礎的紅線我相信你去努力問 不管是賣菜的朋友 還是坐捷運的上班族言論自由是什麼 很重要很重要 言論自由沒有人可以強害在自由民主的台灣 大家都有這樣子的共識 但是"},{"start":1137.907,"end":1156.324,"text":"有那個自由 不可以去說要台領導幾幾歲啊 不可以說叫我過來打台灣 血洗台灣這是正常的一般的公民朋友 我們的公民素養是非常高的所以謝謝主席今天排這個案 讓我們可以進一步的探討我也希望大家能夠站在法裡面 來看待這個嚴肅的問題"},{"start":1158.986,"end":1174.766,"text":"鄭南榮是犧牲了他的生命來爭取跟捍衛言論自由所以這珍貴的言論自由不能被政治所誤用跟濫用這是我的開場 也是我的結論好 我們繼續加油 辛苦大家 謝謝好 謝謝 那我們接下來休息五分鐘"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":609,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時57分）謝謝主席。在我進入質詢之前，我也有權宜問題要表達一下，我非常支持剛剛主席所裁示，還有王鴻薇委員所說的，如果說來列席委員會備詢的官員要經一定程序的請假，這是尊重委員會，也是尊重召委，所以今天如果有部分的官員沒有循這樣子的程序，剛剛召委說，是到現場才知道請假的話，那當然不應該，要檢討；那要譴責，我也保留，我也覺得OK啦！這是共同的決定。","同樣我就想到4月2號上週三那一天，我們的排案召委叫做莊瑞雄委員，他排的案是國會擴建、遷建的進度報告，邀請列席的官員是周萬來秘書長以及議事處的高百祥處長，現在坐在這裡的是吳召委，而當天是莊瑞雄委員，他7點就坐在這裡等著開會了，到開會前，他手上拿的出席名單還是周萬來秘書長跟高處長，沒有請假，所以我們的委員都很認真提早到場準備質詢，可是居然會議時間開始召委才收到一張韓國瑜院長燙金的書函，替周萬來秘書長請假。所以如果比照這個標準，當天當然在場的委員會委員多數是民進黨的委員，我們認為這是不應當，就同樣的標準，居然是比今天的狀況還離譜喔！主席還是今天到場的時候，請假單已經有載明哪些人沒有辦法來，當天的狀況是我們都在這裡，沒有請假單，周萬來要來、高百祥要來，可是主席在那裡已經宣布開會才姍姍來遲的一張，還是由院長替秘書長請假，這當然該譴責，同樣的標準，當然該譴責。更何況當天韓院長的請假函居然是引用立法院各委員會組織法第二條，為了替周萬來請假，什麼離譜的法條都可以來硬掰胡扯，他當天引用的法條的意思是說，我講白話文，以後委員會排案審查的議案必須是由院會交付，如果這樣成立的話，主席今天沒有辦法排這個案耶！因為這個專案報告並沒有經院會交付。立法院每天各個委員會因應重大的事件、因應大家關心的議案，召委的排案權當然可以排專案報告，就如同今天吳召委所排的案子，應當好好探討言論自由啊！為什麼當天韓國瑜院長為了護航周萬來、為了護航議事不公的人員，然後引用錯誤的法條，給予他們不用來規避、迴避監督的保護傘，更進一步剝奪了立法院委員排案的職權、審議議案的職權，如果那天韓國瑜院長引用的法條成立的話，今天很遺憾，這個專案報告沒有院會交付，也不能排啊！所以不要來剝奪立法委員的排案自由，不要來剝奪立法委員的言論自由，所以我用一樣的標準，今天沒有經請假程序就沒有來的官員，該譴責！該檢討！但是當天更加嚴重離譜的是在開會之後才讓召委收到一張燙金的院長代替請假，請問以後可以由行政院卓院長在各個委員會開會當天，現場提一個卓榮泰院長替法務部長鄭銘謙請假、卓榮泰院長替陸委會梁文傑副主委請假？不能這樣嘛！所以就程序論程序，該譴責就譴責，標準一致，就如同我今天要講的言論自由一樣。謝謝主席，不好意思，我表達了我的意見。"],["主席：沒問題，就這個部分，我想我這邊會思考一下，看將來……"],["吳委員思瑤：沒關係，我們都尊重你的裁示，我只是說大家委員會標準一致。"],["主席：今天多位委員的發言，我也都尊重。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝、謝謝。"],["主席：我們的委員會是這樣，因為我當召委，部會首長不是不能請假，如果真的有事情，當然是可以請假。"],["吳委員思瑤：當然，是，要循程序。"],["主席：我們以後大概就是用一個方式，可能多久前告訴我，讓我瞭解一下理由，這樣就好。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，沒問題。其實遊戲規則大家都知道，沒錯。"],["主席：我從來不會認為不能請假。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，沒錯。"],["主席：而且我對於制度的要求就是一體適用……"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝主席、謝謝召委，沒有錯，謝謝。"],["主席：不管是我們立法院的同仁或者是其他院的同仁都一樣，就是一體適用，我今天的想法是這樣。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，一體適用，非常謝謝主席，不愧是檢察官，所以我相信你一定會支持當天立法院民進黨團在這個會議上譴責周萬來的提案，一體適用，謝謝您，沒問題……"],["主席：我們先訂一個制度出來，以後就照那個制度走……"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，我請鄭部長，還有程廳長。"],["主席：如果之前沒有那個制度，我們不知道，因為以前有沒有這個慣例，至少我們現在開始有一個制度，大家都照著這樣走。"],["吳委員思瑤：一定有慣例跟制度啦！我們在立法院都知道，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請問要請哪一位？"],["吳委員思瑤：我請部長跟廳長。"],["主席：麻煩部長、廳長。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝主席。其實今天談的主題就跟我剛剛說的，立法委員的排案自由不容剝奪，言論自由也不是無法無天，立法委員的排案自由不可剝奪，但是它會受限於一些……當然如果有法規排除的就不宜列案，言論自由一樣，不是因為它是自由，就可以無法無天，同樣要受制於法規的規範，所以鼓吹戰爭、仇恨及暴力都是法所不容，這是世界皆準的，不是只有在臺灣。","我多次在委員會分享，我吳思瑤個人從政是因為鄭南榕先生的自焚，那時候我十多歲，爭取百分之百的言論自由，在那個時代，對於一個青少年的吳思瑤來講，我是無比地震撼，因此在公共事務的堅持跟捍衛上，我們要爭取百分之百的自由。但是以剛剛國民黨委員的發言，我真的要很遺憾地說，當年鄭南榕先生之所以選擇非常極端的手段，結束了他的生命來捍衛、彰顯臺灣需要言論自由，當初他對抗的就是執政威權獨裁的中國國民黨。到今天，我要說言論自由有兩種，一種是絕對的言論自由、人權的言論自由，另外一種是被政客、政黨濫用以政治為目的來操作的言論自由，就這個標準來看，大家心中有個判準。今天剛剛大家都垂詢了陸委會的副主委，我要說中配也有兩種，一種是在臺灣釋放支持武統、血洗臺灣的這種中配，當然依法規我支持公權力來執行；另外一種中配是富察，部長，你知道嘛！即出版社的負責人，他是中配，在臺灣就因為他的出版社出版了一些中國不愛、不喜歡的出版品，他到中國去被抓、被監禁，前陣子被判重刑，他沒有經過公開的審判。陸配有兩種，國民黨為什麼支持的是要血洗臺灣、鼓吹戰爭的陸配？而我沒有看到國民黨的任何人出來聲援、支持富察，同樣是陸配，他在中國遭受司法迫害，國民黨沒有人站出來替他說話，所以說國民黨沒有變，本質上沒有變，把言論自由拿來作為政治操弄的工具，這一點沒有變！但國民黨某種程度也變了，過去的國民黨反共，現在的國民黨不反共，我今天所說的任何話是我的言論自由，我願意受公評，這是言論自由的範疇，但是我沒有逾越任何法律的規範。","部長，您知道「國有器官」這部紀錄片嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：很抱歉，我沒有看過。"],["吳委員思瑤：這部紀錄片是加拿大的紀錄片，花了7年的時間，他們具體拍攝了一個軍醫，他是親眼目擊者、當事者，他見證中國高官為了可以延壽、為了高官的生命要延長，不惜對這些被迫害者，多數是法輪功的異議分子進行器官的活摘，這部紀錄片拍攝7年，前陣子我們都還希望他能夠獲得奧斯卡紀錄片的提名，這個紀錄片在臺灣各縣市播放，在澎湖播放的時候受到恐嚇說：如果你敢播的話，就要給你放炸彈還是什麼的。但是澎湖縣政府不受威脅，他們認為表意自由、言論自由、創作自由不容被打壓，這是在澎湖。但是換到臺北市，您知道嗎？同樣的一部片，在臺北市是青年局辦的，本來要播，後來就喊卡了，同樣的理由是他們也接獲了恐嚇信，揚言要在播放電影的現場進行槍擊、投擲汽油彈，所以臺北市政府就決定喊卡不辦，基本上它受到的恐嚇跟澎湖是一樣的。","我在這裡沒有探討縣市政府的決策，但我要說的是兩個縣市政府看待這件事情的立場是不同的，這就是判準的自由，以及依法執行有不同狀況的判準。但我要問，如果這一個打恐嚇電話的人說：我要來槍擊、要來投擲汽油彈。這是言論自由嗎？當然不是言論自由嘛，對不對？臺北市政府就基於這個，他們認為市民的安全更重要，認為那個當下要喊卡，我用這個案例來分享公權力的行使，也就是我們在言論自由，如果對於公共利益造成即時、危險、迫害、重大，而且是即時的話，基於公共利益，政府公權力是可以採取作為的。以「國有器官」的這件事情，臺北市政府一度喊卡，我非常希望臺北市政府能夠捍衛創作自由，讓它可以恢復播放，我不評論市政府的作為，但我要說的公權力在那個當下有他們的判準，因為恐嚇要暴力、丟汽油彈、槍擊，就不是言論自由嘛，對不對？這就是犯罪嘛！我們要預防嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是犯罪，這是恐嚇公眾罪。"],["吳委員思瑤：是！所謂的國家安全跟言論自由不是單選題，它有很多複雜的問題，但是我希望臺灣的政治工作者、立法委員不要簡單化、不要政治化。言論自由應有限制，是放諸四海皆準，我上次也分享過，不管是聯合國公民與政治權利國際公約，或者是聯合國言論自由特別報告，我今天特別找出來的是聯合國言論自由特別報告2001年就頒布了，再一次揭示鼓吹戰爭、仇恨、煽動、歧視等言論都應當在民主程序下進行必要的限制，國際規範是這樣。我今天也花了很多時間整理各國的立法，德國禁止宣揚納粹的意識型態，明確在他們的刑法規範，面對歷史傷痕，慎防種族仇恨意識，所以德國刑法針對這些納粹言論的鼓吹都是有法的規範跟限制，也有刑責。看看英國，對於煽動恐怖主義，2006年也特別立了恐怖主義法，所以任何煽動恐怖主義行為的言論就屬犯罪，這是英國的立法，重罪15年。看看法國，他們同樣以刑法禁止鼓吹恐怖主義行為，而且更與時俱進，因為現在社群網路的使用非常發達，它造成的危害是更即時的，所以法國甚至進一步在刑法修正當中，嚴格針對網路煽動或鼓吹恐怖主義的言論加重刑罰。芬蘭在世界都被認可是自由度非常高的自由民主人權國家，但是芬蘭長期以來也因為地緣政治承受戰爭的威嚇，所以他們特別在刑法當中針對軍事或政治危機期間煽動戰爭處以重刑，芬蘭與臺灣的狀況非常接近。而日本不管是中央立法通過仇恨言論對策法，或是地方縣市政府對於仇恨言論都有不同程度的立法予以禁止。當然我分享過美國最高法院9位大法官一致決對於TikTok的禁令是合憲的，他們認為國家安全的風險跟TikTok所涉1.7億用戶的自由權利孰高孰低，他們選擇了國家安全，這是最新的判例，這些判例都告訴我們什麼呢？臺灣跟國際接軌，言論自由不論是保障面、人權面，絕對百分之百是言論自由的面向，憲法層次的或是國際公約層次的，不論在保障或是必要的限制，立法限制針對仇恨、戰爭、暴力等等皆然，所以臺灣國內法的規範有違逆國際趨勢或是臺灣有因為這樣就戒嚴了嗎？","部長，我希望你們下次報告的時候都可以把國際法規一個一個來分享給國人跟立法委員，我說的都對嗎？不管今天我們講的兩岸人民關係條例、入出國及移民法或者是刑法，對於暴力、仇恨、歧視跟鼓吹戰爭就是於法所不容，而公權力當然要依法執法。","我甚至要舉一個大法官釋字第623號，廳長可能比較熟悉，它是針對為了防制、消弭兒少性交易，所以對於憲法保障的言論自由非絕對做出必要的……因為它會影響兒童身心發展的重大公益，所以必須對言論自由採取必要的限制。廳長，要不要就這個部分簡要地跟大家分享，因為大家可能都在講國家安全的那一塊，我最後特別針對兒少的這一塊，過去大法官解釋也都告訴我們，保障言論自由非常重要，但是對於傷害兒童身心發展的也是需要進行管制，廳長，可不可以簡要說明嗎？"],["程廳長怡怡：是，謝謝委員。這號解釋最主要是針對兒少性交易防制條例第二十九條是不是規定違憲做出來的解釋，大法官闡釋其實性交易也是屬於商業言論所提供訊息之相關廣告，為了保障它的內容必須是真實無誤導性，而且以交易合法為目的，所以應該受到憲法言論自由的保障。但是同時也揭示言論自由的保障並不是毫無範圍、全部保護的，可以用法律來明確規定對它加以限制，所以宣告它是合憲。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以我們兒少相關法規並沒有違憲，它是合憲性的。","這是我最終的結論，我上一次質詢的時候也拿了這一頁，但很不好意思，我也很遺憾我的言論自由被斷章取義了，被某些黨派的委員剪成影片，認為吳思瑤說言論自由要嚴格管制。而我說的是，對於言論自由的限制要嚴格、非常嚴謹地予以限制，它的目的要為重大迫切之政府利益，就如同剛剛的兒少事件，或者是臺北市政府針對「國有器官」，它認為公權力可能會有公共安全的危險，對不對？而且手段與目的之間必須有重要的關聯。所以我希望透過這些國際案例的分享、國內法規的檢視，以及我們大家都能夠判準的一個基礎紅線，我相信你去路上問，不管是買菜的朋友還是坐捷運的上班族，言論自由是什麼？很重要、很重要，言論自由沒有人可以戕害，在自由民主的臺灣，大家都有這樣子的共識，但是言論自由不能說要殺你們全家、不能說叫阿共過來打臺灣、血洗臺灣，這是正常的一般公民朋友……我們的公民素養是非常高的。","所以謝謝主席今天排這個案，讓我們可以進一步的探討，我也希望大家能夠站在法理面來看待這個嚴肅的問題，鄭南榕是犧牲了他的生命來爭取跟捍衛言論自由，所以這珍貴的言論自由不能被政治所誤用跟濫用，這是我的開場，也是我的結論，我們繼續加油，辛苦大家，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。我們接下來休息5分鐘。","休息（11時16分）","繼續開會（11時22分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","下一位我們請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","莊瑞雄","林倩綺","王義川","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","許宇甄","羅智強","張啓楷"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育\n部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相\n關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00004"}}}