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\"的\", \"start\": 362.008, \"end\": 363.008, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 363.008, \"end\": 363.509, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 363.509, \"end\": 363.849, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 363.849, \"end\": 364.269, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"須\"}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 364.269, \"end\": 364.509, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 364.509, \"end\": 365.009, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 365.009, \"end\": 365.15, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 365.15, \"end\": 365.27, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 365.27, \"end\": 365.37, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"判\", \"start\": 365.37, \"end\": 366.11, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 366.11, \"end\": 366.29, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 366.29, \"end\": 366.45, \"score\": 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\"end\": 390.288, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 390.288, \"end\": 390.568, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 390.568, \"end\": 391.408, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"慮\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 391.408, \"end\": 391.668, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 391.668, \"end\": 391.988, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 391.988, \"end\": 392.829, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 392.829, \"end\": 393.929, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 393.929, \"end\": 394.789, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"帶\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"霸\", \"start\": 394.789, \"end\": 394.95, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"凌\", \"start\": 394.95, \"end\": 395.11, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 395.11, \"end\": 396.29, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 396.29, \"end\": 397.13, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 397.13, \"end\": 397.23, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 397.23, \"end\": 397.41, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 397.41, \"end\": 397.931, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 397.931, \"end\": 398.131, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 398.131, \"end\": 398.351, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 398.351, \"end\": 398.571, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 398.571, \"end\": 398.591, \"score\": 0.927}]}, {\"start\": 399.091, \"end\": 413.348, \"text\": \"那依據目前預告的草案裡面這個草案裡面針對於如何能夠在調查過程裡面在進入司法程序之前萬一萬一這個申訴的機制不夠完整的話可能造成這個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 399.091, \"end\": 399.211, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 399.211, \"end\": 399.512, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 399.512, 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{\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 404.077, \"end\": 404.217, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 404.217, \"end\": 404.578, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 404.578, \"end\": 404.998, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 404.998, \"end\": 405.358, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 405.358, \"end\": 405.679, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 405.679, \"end\": 405.979, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 405.979, \"end\": 406.52, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"入\", \"start\": 406.52, \"end\": 406.78, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 406.78, \"end\": 406.9, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 406.9, \"end\": 407.101, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 407.101, \"end\": 407.301, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"序\", \"start\": 407.301, \"end\": 407.441, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 407.441, \"end\": 407.621, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 407.621, \"end\": 409.083, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 409.083, \"end\": 409.904, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 409.904, \"end\": 410.344, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 410.344, \"end\": 410.825, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"訴\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 410.825, \"end\": 411.245, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 411.245, \"end\": 411.586, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 411.586, \"end\": 411.846, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 411.846, \"end\": 412.066, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 412.066, \"end\": 412.206, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 412.206, \"end\": 412.847, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 412.847, \"end\": 412.967, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 412.967, \"end\": 413.087, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"造\", \"start\": 413.087, \"end\": 413.328, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 413.328, \"end\": 413.348, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}]}, {\"start\": 415.79, \"end\": 442.916, \"text\": \"帶來的影響會更大所以包括說以前就是要連續性那如果不是連續性的話就是情節重大的情形之下就可以有機會來針對霸凌防治的問題做一個更完整的規劃那請問一下如果是有所謂的這個情節重大的部分萬一第一次判定是認為不需要的話那後面還有沒有救治的機制可以讓他做得更完整這部分部長的意見如何\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"帶\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 415.79, \"end\": 415.89, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 415.89, \"end\": 416.45, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"響\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 416.45, \"end\": 416.67, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 416.67, \"end\": 417.09, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 417.09, \"end\": 417.27, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 417.27, \"end\": 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00:01:07,746\n總統他提出了相關的這個關稅的處理模式以後相信對所有的國家造成的影響都非常的大那在這邊也知道說勞動部也提出了四大因應的措施來處理那這個四大因應措施裡面我想部長也利用媒體跟大家做了說明那這邊想要多了解一下部長\n\n4\n00:01:08,906 --> 00:01:34,439\n當初有提到所謂的主動訪視的部分那我就依序來請部長再針對於勞動部是否能夠掌握目前相關如果產業受到影響的無薪假還有失業的情形的掌握狀況第二點部分就是哪一些產業適合趕快來主動出擊的我相信產業的這個屬性不同它所造成的衝擊也是不太一樣\n\n5\n00:01:35,439 --> 00:01:47,764\n那另外就是大家很關心如果事業單位他領取了相關的補助後來他又發生了這個違反相關的這些要求的話那勞動部有沒有哪些的\n\n6\n00:01:50,103 --> 00:02:07,114\n好那個跟跟網友說明確實我們其實現在非常非常關注其實可能產業會受到衝擊產業受到衝擊之後後面可能就會是機會受到衝擊所以我們現在會先以我們會先優先是鎖定\n\n7\n00:02:09,955 --> 00:02:35,686\n有高的風險會遭遇到這次關稅衝擊的幾個產業就像之前大家講到包括像機械業汽車零組件然後甚至現在大家講到像水五金像塑膠石化業等等等我們會先鎖定這些相關的產業那包括這些產業下面的相關的工會所以目前我們其實已經在主動的\n\n8\n00:02:36,986 --> 00:02:52,641\n跟這些工會來進行聯繫那也包括如果有相關的資訊的話我們就會主動的來訪視跟確認這訪視當然因為勞動部其實我們有很多的這個包括法案署下面有很多的分署\n\n9\n00:02:53,482 --> 00:03:06,958\n那有些訪視我自己接下來也有相關的訪視的行程來一一的來聽尤其是像中部或者是在南部其實會有一些我們的出口製造業他有可能最最容易受到影響的部分我們會來訪視那\n\n10\n00:03:10,106 --> 00:03:29,186\n所以這個部分我們目前會把這個衝擊的回報的機制給建立起來這裡面我們會跟包括地方政府包括跟工會包括跟我們分屬甚至跟我們產業界裡面的工協會來去做合作所以現在可能大家在媒體上面就會看到有一些相關\n\n11\n00:03:29,887 --> 00:03:45,767\n的新聞出現有這些新聞出現的話我們也會有機制就立即的去做確認到底現在有沒有所謂的減班休息或者是解僱的狀況出現我們會把我們現在正在這個禮拜正在把這個機制相對完整的建立起來知道部長已經很忙碌了\n\n12\n00:03:46,988 --> 00:04:05,674\n我相信部裡面的時候通常也都非常忙碌不過看起來有這個需求的話可能還是要請部長能夠再抽空多了解一下主動出擊也去關心更多的這些產業跟相關的勞動朋友的權益的這些部分如何再做更好的維持這是有關於\n\n13\n00:04:07,354 --> 00:04:35,572\n這個部分那另外救安基金的處理的過程裡面今天其實大家都非常熱烈在討論當中那部長能不能夠再稍微說明一下是不是能夠維持由行政院來編列公務預算規定這個處理方式有沒有做經過今天早上其他委員的討論以後有沒有希望再做調整的部分那另外如果最後司法判決有違施的話\n\n14\n00:04:36,232 --> 00:04:54,604\n那勞動部應該要如何來救責好跟萬元說明齁勞動部是行政部門所以我們必須照審計部給我們的相關審計的結果跟相關的規範的做法來做後續的作業那以編列\n\n15\n00:04:56,752 --> 00:05:21,159\n明年之後的公務預算來歸電是過去被認定為修正減劣的時候的做法之一可是具體的做法我們願意來跟行政院包括審計跟主計我們願意再來做一些相關的討論但我知道現在會有些人會說啊那你這不就是還是是用全民的稅金來去歸電嗎可是我必須說確實過去在被認定為修正減劣的狀況之下這是\n\n16\n00:05:26,340 --> 00:05:52,949\n去處理這個這樣會計上面決算上面的帳戶上修正的方法之一但我們也可以也願意再來跟大家來做做討論那我應該講到是說因為大家現在也很關注就是關於責任的追究然後那責任的追究部分現在包括監察院包括檢調司法都在查如果\n\n17\n00:05:55,824 --> 00:06:08,412\n這個檢調司法最後判定是有所謂非法隱私或者是有違法的人謀不章的話當然我們必須依照這個司法的判決去做相關的追究跟追討他的財務責任\n\n18\n00:06:09,380 --> 00:06:38,591\n好那因為我們了解這個前分署長謝育榮在這個過程裡面他也造成了另外一個霸凌的問題那個霸凌的問題我目前也在透過修法希望能夠把一些內容可以做得更完整那目前的草案裡面也了解說如果能夠考慮很多相關在這個職場當中帶來這個霸凌的問題能夠做得更完整更好\n\n19\n00:06:39,091 --> 00:06:53,348\n那依據目前預告的草案裡面這個草案裡面針對於如何能夠在調查過程裡面在進入司法程序之前萬一萬一這個申訴的機制不夠完整的話可能造成這個\n\n20\n00:06:55,790 --> 00:07:22,916\n帶來的影響會更大所以包括說以前就是要連續性那如果不是連續性的話就是情節重大的情形之下就可以有機會來針對霸凌防治的問題做一個更完整的規劃那請問一下如果是有所謂的這個情節重大的部分萬一第一次判定是認為不需要的話那後面還有沒有救治的機制可以讓他做得更完整這部分部長的意見如何\n\n21\n00:07:25,016 --> 00:07:44,575\n其實我們針對在大零的定義上面的情節重大主要是針對過去其實會有一些法院的判例這法院的判例裡面都會要求它是有持續性所以會有一些案例因為看起來它不是持續的所以會被法院判定為好像這不是霸零的狀況可是我們在這裡面把情節重大這部分給定義\n\n22\n00:07:45,616 --> 00:08:04,057\n這個單數給定出來的時候如果有單一一次或個別次數的這個情節重大的發生的話不一定一定非得要是所謂的連續性或反覆發生的狀況那等於是在霸凌的整體的定義上面能夠一個更完整的去建構我們霸凌的相關的防治\n\n23\n00:08:04,858 --> 00:08:23,448\n那這是第一個事情那第二個事情是說目前在我們目前這個草案裡面的修法版本是如果你是事業單位裡面的最高負責人的話那當然是直接進到這個地方的勞工局去做相關的調查跟申訴這部分是很明確的對\n\n24\n00:08:24,628 --> 00:08:52,310\n是所以如果將來需要的話可能也要麻煩埠裡面是不是能夠設立類似那種裁決委員會或第三公正的單位來處理相關的這些後續我們其實這個我們其實因為在這個進攻法的修法裡面他其實有相關的相對應的這個性評會來處理所以我們當然現在也在考慮跟討論怎麼讓因為我們不希望企業他要自己要去設立\n\n25\n00:08:53,291 --> 00:09:20,049\n可能很多個類似的委員會好像部分委員會處理性貧部分委員處理霸凌其實很多企業可能也沒辦法所以怎麼樣來協助企業把這些相關的功能可以整合把這功能給整合有些部分包括處理性騷擾性貧那他同時也有處理霸凌的功能我們可能要協助企業把這些功能給整合他才能夠比較好的去運作不然太分散的話可能對很多企業來說尤其台灣這麼多的中小微企業也不一定受得了\n\n26\n00:09:20,829 --> 00:09:42,721\n的確這個企業的治理的部分這部分未來可能面對的問題會更多如果好的方法的話可以減少他們的困擾那很快再請教一下有關於我們知道目前在醫界或者是醫院裡面碰到一個蠻困難的問題就是這個護理人力的不足那這邊有沒有\n\n27\n00:09:44,702 --> 00:10:10,398\n考慮到未來在針對於這個開放資深移工擔任副佐的進度的部分目前掌握的狀況如何那我們也了解這樣當然對於護理的專業人力的安排可能會造成他們就業上的衝擊那這方面不曉得有沒有什麼因應措施在準備當中其實我想這部分他這個目前是在預告中\n\n28\n00:10:11,325 --> 00:10:26,706\n那只是我們這個其實他是用讓資深移工來轉為所謂的這個中階的互助可是對於中階的互助其實我們是有設定門檻的包括薪資門檻包括技能門檻甚至包括語言上面都有門檻並不是沒有門檻的\n\n29\n00:10:27,867 --> 00:10:52,797\n那相關的配套當然我們認為現在當然衛福部也在做衛福部來做這樣的申請我們也希望衛福部可以把說到底這跟專業跟護理師就護佐跟護理師之間那個工作的分工的界面其實應該要把它設定清楚那這也是相關的配套才能讓這個分工或者衛福部當初來跟勞動部提出這樣的申請的時候怎麼樣這個分工可以真的是有效是\n\n30\n00:10:53,297 --> 00:11:11,789\n好因為接過來下一個問題就是有關於很快可以請部長稍微說明一下關於職聘的部分我們也知道透過職聘可以讓不管是農業或者是機構看護職工的義工的部分可以有更迅速的因應現在的這些\n\n31\n00:11:15,751 --> 00:11:37,781\n請部長也說明一下跟印度啊或者是原來的這些移工的國家有談論到這部分有的因為立法院其實對於在印度移工的引進上面非常關心職聘的問題所以我們其實也把就是臺灣我們臺方希望在職聘上面的期待很清楚的來跟印方來表達\n\n32\n00:11:39,660 --> 00:12:03,981\n那但是現在確實大家是在這個執行面的技術上面的狀況大家還在做一些磋商但是我們但是因為國會也非常關注所以我們也好幾度的在跟印方來表達我們其實對於在台印之間的移工引進的問題上面我們對於執聘上面的期待好那今天就用這些問題來跟部長請教謝謝謝謝王議員謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1231\t11908\t請黃振旭委員質詢謝謝主席我們有請洪部長\n17406\t42174\t王委員好部長好今天接續著剛剛很多委員針對今天的主題就基金後續的處置那早上大家也都有聽到包括我們審計部還有主席總書的說明那當然部長也做了非常完整的說明不過開始之前還是針對關稅的部分先來請教一下部長我們也知道自從這個川普\n43815\t67746\t總統他提出了相關的這個關稅的處理模式以後相信對所有的國家造成的影響都非常的大那在這邊也知道說勞動部也提出了四大因應的措施來處理那這個四大因應措施裡面我想部長也利用媒體跟大家做了說明那這邊想要多了解一下部長\n68906\t94439\t當初有提到所謂的主動訪視的部分那我就依序來請部長再針對於勞動部是否能夠掌握目前相關如果產業受到影響的無薪假還有失業的情形的掌握狀況第二點部分就是哪一些產業適合趕快來主動出擊的我相信產業的這個屬性不同它所造成的衝擊也是不太一樣\n95439\t107764\t那另外就是大家很關心如果事業單位他領取了相關的補助後來他又發生了這個違反相關的這些要求的話那勞動部有沒有哪些的\n110103\t127114\t好那個跟跟網友說明確實我們其實現在非常非常關注其實可能產業會受到衝擊產業受到衝擊之後後面可能就會是機會受到衝擊所以我們現在會先以我們會先優先是鎖定\n129955\t155686\t有高的風險會遭遇到這次關稅衝擊的幾個產業就像之前大家講到包括像機械業 汽車零組件然後甚至現在大家講到像水五金像塑膠石化業等等等我們會先鎖定這些相關的產業那包括這些產業下面的相關的工會所以目前我們其實已經在主動的\n156986\t172641\t跟這些工會來進行聯繫那也包括如果有相關的資訊的話我們就會主動的來訪視跟確認這訪視當然因為勞動部其實我們有很多的這個包括法案署下面有很多的分署\n173482\t186958\t那有些訪視我自己接下來也有相關的訪視的行程來一一的來聽尤其是像中部或者是在南部其實會有一些我們的出口製造業他有可能最最容易受到影響的部分我們會來訪視那\n190106\t209186\t所以這個部分我們目前會把這個衝擊的回報的機制給建立起來這裡面我們會跟包括地方政府包括跟工會包括跟我們分屬甚至跟我們產業界裡面的工協會來去做合作所以現在可能大家在媒體上面就會看到有一些相關\n209887\t225767\t的新聞出現有這些新聞出現的話我們也會有機制就立即的去做確認到底現在有沒有所謂的減班休息或者是解僱的狀況出現我們會把我們現在正在這個禮拜正在把這個機制相對完整的建立起來知道部長已經很忙碌了\n226988\t245674\t我相信部裡面的時候通常也都非常忙碌不過看起來有這個需求的話可能還是要請部長能夠再抽空多了解一下主動出擊也去關心更多的這些產業跟相關的勞動朋友的權益的這些部分如何再做更好的維持這是有關於\n247354\t275572\t這個部分那另外救安基金的處理的過程裡面今天其實大家都非常熱烈在討論當中那部長能不能夠再稍微說明一下是不是能夠維持由行政院來編列公務預算規定這個處理方式有沒有做經過今天早上其他委員的討論以後有沒有希望再做調整的部分那另外如果最後司法判決有違施的話\n276232\t294604\t那勞動部應該要如何來救責好跟萬元說明齁勞動部是行政部門所以我們必須照審計部給我們的相關審計的結果跟相關的規範的做法來做後續的作業那以編列\n296752\t321159\t明年之後的公務預算來歸電是過去被認定為修正減劣的時候的做法之一可是具體的做法我們願意來跟行政院包括審計跟主計我們願意再來做一些相關的討論但我知道現在會有些人會說啊那你這不就是還是是用全民的稅金來去歸電嗎可是我必須說確實過去在被認定為修正減劣的狀況之下這是\n326340\t352949\t去處理這個這樣會計上面決算上面的帳戶上修正的方法之一但我們也可以也願意再來跟大家來做做討論那我應該講到是說因為大家現在也很關注就是關於責任的追究然後那責任的追究部分現在包括監察院包括檢調司法都在查如果\n355824\t368412\t這個檢調司法最後判定是有所謂非法隱私或者是有違法的人謀不章的話當然我們必須依照這個司法的判決去做相關的追究跟追討他的財務責任\n369380\t398591\t好 那因為我們了解這個前分署長謝育榮在這個過程裡面他也造成了另外一個霸凌的問題那個霸凌的問題我目前也在透過修法希望能夠把一些內容可以做得更完整那目前的草案裡面也了解說如果能夠考慮很多相關在這個職場當中帶來這個霸凌的問題能夠做得更完整更好\n399091\t413348\t那依據目前預告的草案裡面這個草案裡面針對於如何能夠在調查過程裡面在進入司法程序之前萬一萬一這個申訴的機制不夠完整的話可能造成這個\n415790\t442916\t帶來的影響會更大所以包括說以前就是要連續性那如果不是連續性的話就是情節重大的情形之下就可以有機會來針對霸凌防治的問題做一個更完整的規劃那請問一下如果是有所謂的這個情節重大的部分萬一第一次判定是認為不需要的話那後面還有沒有救治的機制可以讓他做得更完整這部分部長的意見如何\n445016\t464575\t其實我們針對在大零的定義上面的情節重大主要是針對過去其實會有一些法院的判例這法院的判例裡面都會要求它是有持續性所以會有一些案例因為看起來它不是持續的所以會被法院判定為好像這不是霸零的狀況可是我們在這裡面把情節重大這部分給定義\n465616\t484057\t這個單數給定出來的時候如果有單一一次或個別次數的這個情節重大的發生的話不一定一定非得要是所謂的連續性或反覆發生的狀況那等於是在霸凌的整體的定義上面能夠一個更完整的去建構我們霸凌的相關的防治\n484858\t503448\t那這是第一個事情那第二個事情是說目前在我們目前這個草案裡面的修法版本是如果你是事業單位裡面的最高負責人的話那當然是直接進到這個地方的勞工局去做相關的調查跟申訴這部分是很明確的 對\n504628\t532310\t是 所以如果將來需要的話可能也要麻煩埠裡面是不是能夠設立類似那種裁決委員會或第三公正的單位來處理相關的這些後續我們其實這個我們其實因為在這個進攻法的修法裡面他其實有相關的相對應的這個性評會來處理所以我們當然現在也在考慮跟討論怎麼讓因為我們不希望企業他要自己要去設立\n533291\t560049\t可能很多個類似的委員會好像部分委員會處理性貧部分委員處理霸凌其實很多企業可能也沒辦法所以怎麼樣來協助企業把這些相關的功能可以整合把這功能給整合有些部分包括處理性騷擾性貧那他同時也有處理霸凌的功能我們可能要協助企業把這些功能給整合他才能夠比較好的去運作不然太分散的話可能對很多企業來說尤其台灣這麼多的中小微企業也不一定受得了\n560829\t582721\t的確這個企業的治理的部分這部分未來可能面對的問題會更多如果好的方法的話可以減少他們的困擾那很快再請教一下有關於我們知道目前在醫界或者是醫院裡面碰到一個蠻困難的問題就是這個護理人力的不足那這邊有沒有\n584702\t610398\t考慮到未來在針對於這個開放資深移工擔任副佐的進度的部分目前掌握的狀況如何那我們也了解這樣當然對於護理的專業人力的安排可能會造成他們就業上的衝擊那這方面不曉得有沒有什麼因應措施在準備當中其實我想這部分他這個目前是在預告中\n611325\t626706\t那只是我們這個其實他是用讓資深移工來轉為所謂的這個中階的互助可是對於中階的互助其實我們是有設定門檻的包括薪資門檻包括技能門檻甚至包括語言上面都有門檻並不是沒有門檻的\n627867\t652797\t那相關的配套當然我們認為現在當然衛福部也在做衛福部來做這樣的申請我們也希望衛福部可以把說到底這跟專業跟護理師就護佐跟護理師之間那個工作的分工的界面其實應該要把它設定清楚那這也是相關的配套才能讓這個分工或者衛福部當初來跟勞動部提出這樣的申請的時候怎麼樣這個分工可以真的是有效是\n653297\t671789\t好因為接過來下一個問題就是有關於很快可以請部長稍微說明一下關於職聘的部分我們也知道透過職聘可以讓不管是農業或者是機構看護職工的義工的部分可以有更迅速的因應現在的這些\n675751\t697781\t請部長也說明一下跟印度啊或者是原來的這些移工的國家有談論到這部分有的因為立法院其實對於在印度移工的引進上面非常關心職聘的問題所以我們其實也把就是臺灣我們臺方希望在職聘上面的期待很清楚的來跟印方來表達\n699660\t723981\t那但是現在確實大家是在這個執行面的技術上面的狀況大家還在做一些磋商但是我們但是因為國會也非常關注所以我們也好幾度的在跟印方來表達我們其實對於在台印之間的移工引進的問題上面我們對於執聘上面的期待好那今天就用這些問題來跟部長請教謝謝謝謝王議員 謝謝部長\n","txt":"請黃振旭委員質詢謝謝主席我們有請洪部長\n王委員好部長好今天接續著剛剛很多委員針對今天的主題就基金後續的處置那早上大家也都有聽到包括我們審計部還有主席總書的說明那當然部長也做了非常完整的說明不過開始之前還是針對關稅的部分先來請教一下部長我們也知道自從這個川普\n總統他提出了相關的這個關稅的處理模式以後相信對所有的國家造成的影響都非常的大那在這邊也知道說勞動部也提出了四大因應的措施來處理那這個四大因應措施裡面我想部長也利用媒體跟大家做了說明那這邊想要多了解一下部長\n當初有提到所謂的主動訪視的部分那我就依序來請部長再針對於勞動部是否能夠掌握目前相關如果產業受到影響的無薪假還有失業的情形的掌握狀況第二點部分就是哪一些產業適合趕快來主動出擊的我相信產業的這個屬性不同它所造成的衝擊也是不太一樣\n那另外就是大家很關心如果事業單位他領取了相關的補助後來他又發生了這個違反相關的這些要求的話那勞動部有沒有哪些的\n好那個跟跟網友說明確實我們其實現在非常非常關注其實可能產業會受到衝擊產業受到衝擊之後後面可能就會是機會受到衝擊所以我們現在會先以我們會先優先是鎖定\n有高的風險會遭遇到這次關稅衝擊的幾個產業就像之前大家講到包括像機械業 汽車零組件然後甚至現在大家講到像水五金像塑膠石化業等等等我們會先鎖定這些相關的產業那包括這些產業下面的相關的工會所以目前我們其實已經在主動的\n跟這些工會來進行聯繫那也包括如果有相關的資訊的話我們就會主動的來訪視跟確認這訪視當然因為勞動部其實我們有很多的這個包括法案署下面有很多的分署\n那有些訪視我自己接下來也有相關的訪視的行程來一一的來聽尤其是像中部或者是在南部其實會有一些我們的出口製造業他有可能最最容易受到影響的部分我們會來訪視那\n所以這個部分我們目前會把這個衝擊的回報的機制給建立起來這裡面我們會跟包括地方政府包括跟工會包括跟我們分屬甚至跟我們產業界裡面的工協會來去做合作所以現在可能大家在媒體上面就會看到有一些相關\n的新聞出現有這些新聞出現的話我們也會有機制就立即的去做確認到底現在有沒有所謂的減班休息或者是解僱的狀況出現我們會把我們現在正在這個禮拜正在把這個機制相對完整的建立起來知道部長已經很忙碌了\n我相信部裡面的時候通常也都非常忙碌不過看起來有這個需求的話可能還是要請部長能夠再抽空多了解一下主動出擊也去關心更多的這些產業跟相關的勞動朋友的權益的這些部分如何再做更好的維持這是有關於\n這個部分那另外救安基金的處理的過程裡面今天其實大家都非常熱烈在討論當中那部長能不能夠再稍微說明一下是不是能夠維持由行政院來編列公務預算規定這個處理方式有沒有做經過今天早上其他委員的討論以後有沒有希望再做調整的部分那另外如果最後司法判決有違施的話\n那勞動部應該要如何來救責好跟萬元說明齁勞動部是行政部門所以我們必須照審計部給我們的相關審計的結果跟相關的規範的做法來做後續的作業那以編列\n明年之後的公務預算來歸電是過去被認定為修正減劣的時候的做法之一可是具體的做法我們願意來跟行政院包括審計跟主計我們願意再來做一些相關的討論但我知道現在會有些人會說啊那你這不就是還是是用全民的稅金來去歸電嗎可是我必須說確實過去在被認定為修正減劣的狀況之下這是\n去處理這個這樣會計上面決算上面的帳戶上修正的方法之一但我們也可以也願意再來跟大家來做做討論那我應該講到是說因為大家現在也很關注就是關於責任的追究然後那責任的追究部分現在包括監察院包括檢調司法都在查如果\n這個檢調司法最後判定是有所謂非法隱私或者是有違法的人謀不章的話當然我們必須依照這個司法的判決去做相關的追究跟追討他的財務責任\n好 那因為我們了解這個前分署長謝育榮在這個過程裡面他也造成了另外一個霸凌的問題那個霸凌的問題我目前也在透過修法希望能夠把一些內容可以做得更完整那目前的草案裡面也了解說如果能夠考慮很多相關在這個職場當中帶來這個霸凌的問題能夠做得更完整更好\n那依據目前預告的草案裡面這個草案裡面針對於如何能夠在調查過程裡面在進入司法程序之前萬一萬一這個申訴的機制不夠完整的話可能造成這個\n帶來的影響會更大所以包括說以前就是要連續性那如果不是連續性的話就是情節重大的情形之下就可以有機會來針對霸凌防治的問題做一個更完整的規劃那請問一下如果是有所謂的這個情節重大的部分萬一第一次判定是認為不需要的話那後面還有沒有救治的機制可以讓他做得更完整這部分部長的意見如何\n其實我們針對在大零的定義上面的情節重大主要是針對過去其實會有一些法院的判例這法院的判例裡面都會要求它是有持續性所以會有一些案例因為看起來它不是持續的所以會被法院判定為好像這不是霸零的狀況可是我們在這裡面把情節重大這部分給定義\n這個單數給定出來的時候如果有單一一次或個別次數的這個情節重大的發生的話不一定一定非得要是所謂的連續性或反覆發生的狀況那等於是在霸凌的整體的定義上面能夠一個更完整的去建構我們霸凌的相關的防治\n那這是第一個事情那第二個事情是說目前在我們目前這個草案裡面的修法版本是如果你是事業單位裡面的最高負責人的話那當然是直接進到這個地方的勞工局去做相關的調查跟申訴這部分是很明確的 對\n是 所以如果將來需要的話可能也要麻煩埠裡面是不是能夠設立類似那種裁決委員會或第三公正的單位來處理相關的這些後續我們其實這個我們其實因為在這個進攻法的修法裡面他其實有相關的相對應的這個性評會來處理所以我們當然現在也在考慮跟討論怎麼讓因為我們不希望企業他要自己要去設立\n可能很多個類似的委員會好像部分委員會處理性貧部分委員處理霸凌其實很多企業可能也沒辦法所以怎麼樣來協助企業把這些相關的功能可以整合把這功能給整合有些部分包括處理性騷擾性貧那他同時也有處理霸凌的功能我們可能要協助企業把這些功能給整合他才能夠比較好的去運作不然太分散的話可能對很多企業來說尤其台灣這麼多的中小微企業也不一定受得了\n的確這個企業的治理的部分這部分未來可能面對的問題會更多如果好的方法的話可以減少他們的困擾那很快再請教一下有關於我們知道目前在醫界或者是醫院裡面碰到一個蠻困難的問題就是這個護理人力的不足那這邊有沒有\n考慮到未來在針對於這個開放資深移工擔任副佐的進度的部分目前掌握的狀況如何那我們也了解這樣當然對於護理的專業人力的安排可能會造成他們就業上的衝擊那這方面不曉得有沒有什麼因應措施在準備當中其實我想這部分他這個目前是在預告中\n那只是我們這個其實他是用讓資深移工來轉為所謂的這個中階的互助可是對於中階的互助其實我們是有設定門檻的包括薪資門檻包括技能門檻甚至包括語言上面都有門檻並不是沒有門檻的\n那相關的配套當然我們認為現在當然衛福部也在做衛福部來做這樣的申請我們也希望衛福部可以把說到底這跟專業跟護理師就護佐跟護理師之間那個工作的分工的界面其實應該要把它設定清楚那這也是相關的配套才能讓這個分工或者衛福部當初來跟勞動部提出這樣的申請的時候怎麼樣這個分工可以真的是有效是\n好因為接過來下一個問題就是有關於很快可以請部長稍微說明一下關於職聘的部分我們也知道透過職聘可以讓不管是農業或者是機構看護職工的義工的部分可以有更迅速的因應現在的這些\n請部長也說明一下跟印度啊或者是原來的這些移工的國家有談論到這部分有的因為立法院其實對於在印度移工的引進上面非常關心職聘的問題所以我們其實也把就是臺灣我們臺方希望在職聘上面的期待很清楚的來跟印方來表達\n那但是現在確實大家是在這個執行面的技術上面的狀況大家還在做一些磋商但是我們但是因為國會也非常關注所以我們也好幾度的在跟印方來表達我們其實對於在台印之間的移工引進的問題上面我們對於執聘上面的期待好那今天就用這些問題來跟部長請教謝謝謝謝王議員 謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.231 --> 00:11.908\n請黃振旭委員質詢謝謝主席我們有請洪部長\n\n00:17.406 --> 00:42.174\n王委員好部長好今天接續著剛剛很多委員針對今天的主題就基金後續的處置那早上大家也都有聽到包括我們審計部還有主席總書的說明那當然部長也做了非常完整的說明不過開始之前還是針對關稅的部分先來請教一下部長我們也知道自從這個川普\n\n00:43.815 --> 01:07.746\n總統他提出了相關的這個關稅的處理模式以後相信對所有的國家造成的影響都非常的大那在這邊也知道說勞動部也提出了四大因應的措施來處理那這個四大因應措施裡面我想部長也利用媒體跟大家做了說明那這邊想要多了解一下部長\n\n01:08.906 --> 01:34.439\n當初有提到所謂的主動訪視的部分那我就依序來請部長再針對於勞動部是否能夠掌握目前相關如果產業受到影響的無薪假還有失業的情形的掌握狀況第二點部分就是哪一些產業適合趕快來主動出擊的我相信產業的這個屬性不同它所造成的衝擊也是不太一樣\n\n01:35.439 --> 01:47.764\n那另外就是大家很關心如果事業單位他領取了相關的補助後來他又發生了這個違反相關的這些要求的話那勞動部有沒有哪些的\n\n01:50.103 --> 02:07.114\n好那個跟跟網友說明確實我們其實現在非常非常關注其實可能產業會受到衝擊產業受到衝擊之後後面可能就會是機會受到衝擊所以我們現在會先以我們會先優先是鎖定\n\n02:09.955 --> 02:35.686\n有高的風險會遭遇到這次關稅衝擊的幾個產業就像之前大家講到包括像機械業汽車零組件然後甚至現在大家講到像水五金像塑膠石化業等等等我們會先鎖定這些相關的產業那包括這些產業下面的相關的工會所以目前我們其實已經在主動的\n\n02:36.986 --> 02:52.641\n跟這些工會來進行聯繫那也包括如果有相關的資訊的話我們就會主動的來訪視跟確認這訪視當然因為勞動部其實我們有很多的這個包括法案署下面有很多的分署\n\n02:53.482 --> 03:06.958\n那有些訪視我自己接下來也有相關的訪視的行程來一一的來聽尤其是像中部或者是在南部其實會有一些我們的出口製造業他有可能最最容易受到影響的部分我們會來訪視那\n\n03:10.106 --> 03:29.186\n所以這個部分我們目前會把這個衝擊的回報的機制給建立起來這裡面我們會跟包括地方政府包括跟工會包括跟我們分屬甚至跟我們產業界裡面的工協會來去做合作所以現在可能大家在媒體上面就會看到有一些相關\n\n03:29.887 --> 03:45.767\n的新聞出現有這些新聞出現的話我們也會有機制就立即的去做確認到底現在有沒有所謂的減班休息或者是解僱的狀況出現我們會把我們現在正在這個禮拜正在把這個機制相對完整的建立起來知道部長已經很忙碌了\n\n03:46.988 --> 04:05.674\n我相信部裡面的時候通常也都非常忙碌不過看起來有這個需求的話可能還是要請部長能夠再抽空多了解一下主動出擊也去關心更多的這些產業跟相關的勞動朋友的權益的這些部分如何再做更好的維持這是有關於\n\n04:07.354 --> 04:35.572\n這個部分那另外救安基金的處理的過程裡面今天其實大家都非常熱烈在討論當中那部長能不能夠再稍微說明一下是不是能夠維持由行政院來編列公務預算規定這個處理方式有沒有做經過今天早上其他委員的討論以後有沒有希望再做調整的部分那另外如果最後司法判決有違施的話\n\n04:36.232 --> 04:54.604\n那勞動部應該要如何來救責好跟萬元說明齁勞動部是行政部門所以我們必須照審計部給我們的相關審計的結果跟相關的規範的做法來做後續的作業那以編列\n\n04:56.752 --> 05:21.159\n明年之後的公務預算來歸電是過去被認定為修正減劣的時候的做法之一可是具體的做法我們願意來跟行政院包括審計跟主計我們願意再來做一些相關的討論但我知道現在會有些人會說啊那你這不就是還是是用全民的稅金來去歸電嗎可是我必須說確實過去在被認定為修正減劣的狀況之下這是\n\n05:26.340 --> 05:52.949\n去處理這個這樣會計上面決算上面的帳戶上修正的方法之一但我們也可以也願意再來跟大家來做做討論那我應該講到是說因為大家現在也很關注就是關於責任的追究然後那責任的追究部分現在包括監察院包括檢調司法都在查如果\n\n05:55.824 --> 06:08.412\n這個檢調司法最後判定是有所謂非法隱私或者是有違法的人謀不章的話當然我們必須依照這個司法的判決去做相關的追究跟追討他的財務責任\n\n06:09.380 --> 06:38.591\n好那因為我們了解這個前分署長謝育榮在這個過程裡面他也造成了另外一個霸凌的問題那個霸凌的問題我目前也在透過修法希望能夠把一些內容可以做得更完整那目前的草案裡面也了解說如果能夠考慮很多相關在這個職場當中帶來這個霸凌的問題能夠做得更完整更好\n\n06:39.091 --> 06:53.348\n那依據目前預告的草案裡面這個草案裡面針對於如何能夠在調查過程裡面在進入司法程序之前萬一萬一這個申訴的機制不夠完整的話可能造成這個\n\n06:55.790 --> 07:22.916\n帶來的影響會更大所以包括說以前就是要連續性那如果不是連續性的話就是情節重大的情形之下就可以有機會來針對霸凌防治的問題做一個更完整的規劃那請問一下如果是有所謂的這個情節重大的部分萬一第一次判定是認為不需要的話那後面還有沒有救治的機制可以讓他做得更完整這部分部長的意見如何\n\n07:25.016 --> 07:44.575\n其實我們針對在大零的定義上面的情節重大主要是針對過去其實會有一些法院的判例這法院的判例裡面都會要求它是有持續性所以會有一些案例因為看起來它不是持續的所以會被法院判定為好像這不是霸零的狀況可是我們在這裡面把情節重大這部分給定義\n\n07:45.616 --> 08:04.057\n這個單數給定出來的時候如果有單一一次或個別次數的這個情節重大的發生的話不一定一定非得要是所謂的連續性或反覆發生的狀況那等於是在霸凌的整體的定義上面能夠一個更完整的去建構我們霸凌的相關的防治\n\n08:04.858 --> 08:23.448\n那這是第一個事情那第二個事情是說目前在我們目前這個草案裡面的修法版本是如果你是事業單位裡面的最高負責人的話那當然是直接進到這個地方的勞工局去做相關的調查跟申訴這部分是很明確的對\n\n08:24.628 --> 08:52.310\n是所以如果將來需要的話可能也要麻煩埠裡面是不是能夠設立類似那種裁決委員會或第三公正的單位來處理相關的這些後續我們其實這個我們其實因為在這個進攻法的修法裡面他其實有相關的相對應的這個性評會來處理所以我們當然現在也在考慮跟討論怎麼讓因為我們不希望企業他要自己要去設立\n\n08:53.291 --> 09:20.049\n可能很多個類似的委員會好像部分委員會處理性貧部分委員處理霸凌其實很多企業可能也沒辦法所以怎麼樣來協助企業把這些相關的功能可以整合把這功能給整合有些部分包括處理性騷擾性貧那他同時也有處理霸凌的功能我們可能要協助企業把這些功能給整合他才能夠比較好的去運作不然太分散的話可能對很多企業來說尤其台灣這麼多的中小微企業也不一定受得了\n\n09:20.829 --> 09:42.721\n的確這個企業的治理的部分這部分未來可能面對的問題會更多如果好的方法的話可以減少他們的困擾那很快再請教一下有關於我們知道目前在醫界或者是醫院裡面碰到一個蠻困難的問題就是這個護理人力的不足那這邊有沒有\n\n09:44.702 --> 10:10.398\n考慮到未來在針對於這個開放資深移工擔任副佐的進度的部分目前掌握的狀況如何那我們也了解這樣當然對於護理的專業人力的安排可能會造成他們就業上的衝擊那這方面不曉得有沒有什麼因應措施在準備當中其實我想這部分他這個目前是在預告中\n\n10:11.325 --> 10:26.706\n那只是我們這個其實他是用讓資深移工來轉為所謂的這個中階的互助可是對於中階的互助其實我們是有設定門檻的包括薪資門檻包括技能門檻甚至包括語言上面都有門檻並不是沒有門檻的\n\n10:27.867 --> 10:52.797\n那相關的配套當然我們認為現在當然衛福部也在做衛福部來做這樣的申請我們也希望衛福部可以把說到底這跟專業跟護理師就護佐跟護理師之間那個工作的分工的界面其實應該要把它設定清楚那這也是相關的配套才能讓這個分工或者衛福部當初來跟勞動部提出這樣的申請的時候怎麼樣這個分工可以真的是有效是\n\n10:53.297 --> 11:11.789\n好因為接過來下一個問題就是有關於很快可以請部長稍微說明一下關於職聘的部分我們也知道透過職聘可以讓不管是農業或者是機構看護職工的義工的部分可以有更迅速的因應現在的這些\n\n11:15.751 --> 11:37.781\n請部長也說明一下跟印度啊或者是原來的這些移工的國家有談論到這部分有的因為立法院其實對於在印度移工的引進上面非常關心職聘的問題所以我們其實也把就是臺灣我們臺方希望在職聘上面的期待很清楚的來跟印方來表達\n\n11:39.660 --> 12:03.981\n那但是現在確實大家是在這個執行面的技術上面的狀況大家還在做一些磋商但是我們但是因為國會也非常關注所以我們也好幾度的在跟印方來表達我們其實對於在台印之間的移工引進的問題上面我們對於執聘上面的期待好那今天就用這些問題來跟部長請教謝謝謝謝王議員謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.231,"end":11.908,"text":"請黃振旭委員質詢謝謝主席我們有請洪部長"},{"start":17.406,"end":42.174,"text":"王委員好部長好今天接續著剛剛很多委員針對今天的主題就基金後續的處置那早上大家也都有聽到包括我們審計部還有主席總書的說明那當然部長也做了非常完整的說明不過開始之前還是針對關稅的部分先來請教一下部長我們也知道自從這個川普"},{"start":43.815,"end":67.746,"text":"總統他提出了相關的這個關稅的處理模式以後相信對所有的國家造成的影響都非常的大那在這邊也知道說勞動部也提出了四大因應的措施來處理那這個四大因應措施裡面我想部長也利用媒體跟大家做了說明那這邊想要多了解一下部長"},{"start":68.906,"end":94.439,"text":"當初有提到所謂的主動訪視的部分那我就依序來請部長再針對於勞動部是否能夠掌握目前相關如果產業受到影響的無薪假還有失業的情形的掌握狀況第二點部分就是哪一些產業適合趕快來主動出擊的我相信產業的這個屬性不同它所造成的衝擊也是不太一樣"},{"start":95.439,"end":107.764,"text":"那另外就是大家很關心如果事業單位他領取了相關的補助後來他又發生了這個違反相關的這些要求的話那勞動部有沒有哪些的"},{"start":110.103,"end":127.114,"text":"好那個跟跟網友說明確實我們其實現在非常非常關注其實可能產業會受到衝擊產業受到衝擊之後後面可能就會是機會受到衝擊所以我們現在會先以我們會先優先是鎖定"},{"start":129.955,"end":155.686,"text":"有高的風險會遭遇到這次關稅衝擊的幾個產業就像之前大家講到包括像機械業 汽車零組件然後甚至現在大家講到像水五金像塑膠石化業等等等我們會先鎖定這些相關的產業那包括這些產業下面的相關的工會所以目前我們其實已經在主動的"},{"start":156.986,"end":172.641,"text":"跟這些工會來進行聯繫那也包括如果有相關的資訊的話我們就會主動的來訪視跟確認這訪視當然因為勞動部其實我們有很多的這個包括法案署下面有很多的分署"},{"start":173.482,"end":186.958,"text":"那有些訪視我自己接下來也有相關的訪視的行程來一一的來聽尤其是像中部或者是在南部其實會有一些我們的出口製造業他有可能最最容易受到影響的部分我們會來訪視那"},{"start":190.106,"end":209.186,"text":"所以這個部分我們目前會把這個衝擊的回報的機制給建立起來這裡面我們會跟包括地方政府包括跟工會包括跟我們分屬甚至跟我們產業界裡面的工協會來去做合作所以現在可能大家在媒體上面就會看到有一些相關"},{"start":209.887,"end":225.767,"text":"的新聞出現有這些新聞出現的話我們也會有機制就立即的去做確認到底現在有沒有所謂的減班休息或者是解僱的狀況出現我們會把我們現在正在這個禮拜正在把這個機制相對完整的建立起來知道部長已經很忙碌了"},{"start":226.988,"end":245.674,"text":"我相信部裡面的時候通常也都非常忙碌不過看起來有這個需求的話可能還是要請部長能夠再抽空多了解一下主動出擊也去關心更多的這些產業跟相關的勞動朋友的權益的這些部分如何再做更好的維持這是有關於"},{"start":247.354,"end":275.572,"text":"這個部分那另外救安基金的處理的過程裡面今天其實大家都非常熱烈在討論當中那部長能不能夠再稍微說明一下是不是能夠維持由行政院來編列公務預算規定這個處理方式有沒有做經過今天早上其他委員的討論以後有沒有希望再做調整的部分那另外如果最後司法判決有違施的話"},{"start":276.232,"end":294.604,"text":"那勞動部應該要如何來救責好跟萬元說明齁勞動部是行政部門所以我們必須照審計部給我們的相關審計的結果跟相關的規範的做法來做後續的作業那以編列"},{"start":296.752,"end":321.159,"text":"明年之後的公務預算來歸電是過去被認定為修正減劣的時候的做法之一可是具體的做法我們願意來跟行政院包括審計跟主計我們願意再來做一些相關的討論但我知道現在會有些人會說啊那你這不就是還是是用全民的稅金來去歸電嗎可是我必須說確實過去在被認定為修正減劣的狀況之下這是"},{"start":326.34,"end":352.949,"text":"去處理這個這樣會計上面決算上面的帳戶上修正的方法之一但我們也可以也願意再來跟大家來做做討論那我應該講到是說因為大家現在也很關注就是關於責任的追究然後那責任的追究部分現在包括監察院包括檢調司法都在查如果"},{"start":355.824,"end":368.412,"text":"這個檢調司法最後判定是有所謂非法隱私或者是有違法的人謀不章的話當然我們必須依照這個司法的判決去做相關的追究跟追討他的財務責任"},{"start":369.38,"end":398.591,"text":"好 那因為我們了解這個前分署長謝育榮在這個過程裡面他也造成了另外一個霸凌的問題那個霸凌的問題我目前也在透過修法希望能夠把一些內容可以做得更完整那目前的草案裡面也了解說如果能夠考慮很多相關在這個職場當中帶來這個霸凌的問題能夠做得更完整更好"},{"start":399.091,"end":413.348,"text":"那依據目前預告的草案裡面這個草案裡面針對於如何能夠在調查過程裡面在進入司法程序之前萬一萬一這個申訴的機制不夠完整的話可能造成這個"},{"start":415.79,"end":442.916,"text":"帶來的影響會更大所以包括說以前就是要連續性那如果不是連續性的話就是情節重大的情形之下就可以有機會來針對霸凌防治的問題做一個更完整的規劃那請問一下如果是有所謂的這個情節重大的部分萬一第一次判定是認為不需要的話那後面還有沒有救治的機制可以讓他做得更完整這部分部長的意見如何"},{"start":445.016,"end":464.575,"text":"其實我們針對在大零的定義上面的情節重大主要是針對過去其實會有一些法院的判例這法院的判例裡面都會要求它是有持續性所以會有一些案例因為看起來它不是持續的所以會被法院判定為好像這不是霸零的狀況可是我們在這裡面把情節重大這部分給定義"},{"start":465.616,"end":484.057,"text":"這個單數給定出來的時候如果有單一一次或個別次數的這個情節重大的發生的話不一定一定非得要是所謂的連續性或反覆發生的狀況那等於是在霸凌的整體的定義上面能夠一個更完整的去建構我們霸凌的相關的防治"},{"start":484.858,"end":503.448,"text":"那這是第一個事情那第二個事情是說目前在我們目前這個草案裡面的修法版本是如果你是事業單位裡面的最高負責人的話那當然是直接進到這個地方的勞工局去做相關的調查跟申訴這部分是很明確的 對"},{"start":504.628,"end":532.31,"text":"是 所以如果將來需要的話可能也要麻煩埠裡面是不是能夠設立類似那種裁決委員會或第三公正的單位來處理相關的這些後續我們其實這個我們其實因為在這個進攻法的修法裡面他其實有相關的相對應的這個性評會來處理所以我們當然現在也在考慮跟討論怎麼讓因為我們不希望企業他要自己要去設立"},{"start":533.291,"end":560.049,"text":"可能很多個類似的委員會好像部分委員會處理性貧部分委員處理霸凌其實很多企業可能也沒辦法所以怎麼樣來協助企業把這些相關的功能可以整合把這功能給整合有些部分包括處理性騷擾性貧那他同時也有處理霸凌的功能我們可能要協助企業把這些功能給整合他才能夠比較好的去運作不然太分散的話可能對很多企業來說尤其台灣這麼多的中小微企業也不一定受得了"},{"start":560.829,"end":582.721,"text":"的確這個企業的治理的部分這部分未來可能面對的問題會更多如果好的方法的話可以減少他們的困擾那很快再請教一下有關於我們知道目前在醫界或者是醫院裡面碰到一個蠻困難的問題就是這個護理人力的不足那這邊有沒有"},{"start":584.702,"end":610.398,"text":"考慮到未來在針對於這個開放資深移工擔任副佐的進度的部分目前掌握的狀況如何那我們也了解這樣當然對於護理的專業人力的安排可能會造成他們就業上的衝擊那這方面不曉得有沒有什麼因應措施在準備當中其實我想這部分他這個目前是在預告中"},{"start":611.325,"end":626.706,"text":"那只是我們這個其實他是用讓資深移工來轉為所謂的這個中階的互助可是對於中階的互助其實我們是有設定門檻的包括薪資門檻包括技能門檻甚至包括語言上面都有門檻並不是沒有門檻的"},{"start":627.867,"end":652.797,"text":"那相關的配套當然我們認為現在當然衛福部也在做衛福部來做這樣的申請我們也希望衛福部可以把說到底這跟專業跟護理師就護佐跟護理師之間那個工作的分工的界面其實應該要把它設定清楚那這也是相關的配套才能讓這個分工或者衛福部當初來跟勞動部提出這樣的申請的時候怎麼樣這個分工可以真的是有效是"},{"start":653.297,"end":671.789,"text":"好因為接過來下一個問題就是有關於很快可以請部長稍微說明一下關於職聘的部分我們也知道透過職聘可以讓不管是農業或者是機構看護職工的義工的部分可以有更迅速的因應現在的這些"},{"start":675.751,"end":697.781,"text":"請部長也說明一下跟印度啊或者是原來的這些移工的國家有談論到這部分有的因為立法院其實對於在印度移工的引進上面非常關心職聘的問題所以我們其實也把就是臺灣我們臺方希望在職聘上面的期待很清楚的來跟印方來表達"},{"start":699.66,"end":723.981,"text":"那但是現在確實大家是在這個執行面的技術上面的狀況大家還在做一些磋商但是我們但是因為國會也非常關注所以我們也好幾度的在跟印方來表達我們其實對於在台印之間的移工引進的問題上面我們對於執聘上面的期待好那今天就用這些問題來跟部長請教謝謝謝謝王議員 謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":726,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時22分）謝謝主席。我們有請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好。接續著剛剛很多委員針對今天的主題就業安定基金後續的處置，早上大家也都有聽到，包括審計部還有主計總處的說明，當然部長也做了非常完整的說明，不過開始之前，還是針對關稅的部分先來請教一下部長，我們也知道，自從川普總統提出了相關的關稅處理模式之後，相信對所有國家造成的影響都非常大，勞動部也提出了四大因應措施來處理，這四大因應措施，部長也利用媒體跟大家做了說明，這邊想要多了解一下部長當初有提到主動訪視的部分，我就依序來請部長，針對勞動部是否能夠掌握目前相關產業受到影響的無薪假，還有失業情形的掌握狀況，第二點部分是哪些產業適合趕快來主動出擊，我相信產業的屬性不同，造成的衝擊也是不太一樣。","另外是大家很關心，如果事業單位領取了相關的補助，後來又發生了違反相關要求的話，勞動部有沒有哪些因應措施？"],["洪部長申翰：跟王委員說明，確實我們現在非常非常關注產業所可能會受到的衝擊。因為產業受到衝擊之後，後面可能是就業機會受到衝擊，所以我們現在會優先鎖定有高風險遭遇到這次關稅衝擊的幾個產業，就像之前大家講到，包括像機械業、汽車零組件，甚至現在大家講到像水五金、塑膠、石化業等等，我們會先鎖定這些相關的產業，包括這些產業下面的相關公會。所以目前我們其實已經在主動的跟這些公會來進行聯繫，如果有相關資訊的話，我們就會主動訪視跟確認。關於訪視，其實勞動部有很多的，包括發展署下面有很多的分署，我自己接下來也有相關的訪視行程要一一地來聽，尤其是像中部或者是在南部，我們其實會有一些出口製造業，它有可能是最容易受到影響的部分，我們會來訪視。","關於這個部分，我們目前會把衝擊的回報機制給建立起來，這裡面我們會跟包括地方政府、包括跟公會、包括跟我們分署，甚至跟產業界的公協會來合作。所以現在可能大家在媒體上面就會看到有一些相關的新聞出現，有這些新聞出現的話，我們也會有機制去做立即的確認到底現在有沒有所謂的減班休息或者是解僱的狀況出現？我們這一個禮拜正在把這個機制相對完整的建立起來。"],["王委員正旭：我知道部長已經很忙碌了，我相信部裡面的所有同仁也都非常忙碌，不過看起來有這個需求的話，可能還是要請部長能夠再抽空多了解一下，主動出擊，也去關心更多的這些產業跟相關的勞動朋友權益的部分，看如何能夠再做更好的維持，這是有關於這個部分。","另外就安基金處理的過程裡面，今天其實大家都非常熱烈討論，部長能不能夠再稍微說明一下，是不是仍然維持由行政院來編列公務預算歸墊？這個處理方式有沒有做……經過今天早上其他委員的討論以後，有沒有希望再做調整的部分？另外，如果最後司法判決有違失的話，勞動部要如何來究責？"],["洪部長申翰：跟王委員說明，勞動部是行政部門，所以我們必須依照審計部給我們的相關審計結果跟相關規範作法來做後續的作業。以編列明年之後的公務預算來歸墊，是過去被認定為修正減列的作法之一，可是具體的作法，我們願意再來跟行政院包括審計跟主計做一些的討論，當然我知道現在有些人會說你這不就還是用全民的稅金來去歸墊嗎？可是我必須說，確實過去在被認定為修正減列的狀況之下，是去處理會計上面、決算上面的帳務上修正的方法之一，我們也可以也願意再來跟大家來做討論。委員剛才講到的是，因為大家現在也很關注責任的追究，責任追究的部分，現在包括監察院、包括檢、調、司法都在查，如果檢、調、司法最後判定是有所謂非法營私，或者是有違法的人謀不臧的話，當然我們就必須依照司法判決，去做相關的追究跟追討他的財務責任。"],["王委員正旭：好，因為我們了解前分署長謝宜容在這個過程裡面，也造成了另外的霸凌問題。那個霸凌的問題，我目前也在透過修法，希望能夠把一些內容可以做得更完整，目前的草案裡面也了解說如何能夠考慮很多相關在職掌當中帶來的霸凌問題，能夠做得更完整、更好。依據目前預告的所有草案裡面，針對於如何能夠在調查過程裡面、在進入司法程序之前，萬一這個申訴機制不夠完整的話，可能帶來的影響會更大，包括以前是要連續性，如果不是連續性的話，就是情節重大的情形之下，就可以有機會來針對霸凌防制的問題做一個更完整的規劃。請問一下，如果是有所謂情節重大的部分，萬一第一次判定是認為不需要的話，那後面還有沒有救治的機制，可以讓他做得更完整？這部分部長的意見如何？"],["洪部長申翰：其實我們針對在定義霸凌上的情節重大，主要是針對……過去其實會有一些法院的判例，這些法院判例裡面都會要求它是有持續性，所以會有一些案例，因為看起來它不是持續的，所以會被法院判定為好像不是霸凌的狀況。可是我們在這裡面把情節重大這個但書給定義出來的時候，如果有單一、一次或個別次數的情節重大的發生的話，不一定非得要是所謂的連續性或反覆發生的狀況，那等於是在霸凌的整體定義上面，能夠更完整的去建構霸凌相關的防制，這是第一件事情。","第二件事情，目前在我們草案裡面的修法版本，如果你是事業單位裡面的最高負責人的話，當然是直接進到地方的勞工局去做相關的調查跟申訴，這部分是很明確的。"],["王委員正旭：是，所以如果將來需要的話，可能也要麻煩部裡面是不是能夠設立類似裁決委員會或第三公證的單位來處理相關的這些後續？"],["洪部長申翰：性工法的修法裡面其實有相對應的性平會來處理，所以我們現在也在考慮跟討論怎麼樣……因為我們不希望企業要自己去設立可能很多個類似的委員會，好像部分委員會處理性平、某個部分的委員會處理霸凌，其實很多企業可能也沒辦法。所以怎麼樣來協助企業把這些相關的功能可以整合？有些部分包括處理性騷擾、性平，他同時也有處理霸凌的功能，我們可能要協助企業把這些功能整合，他才能夠比較好的去運作，不然太分散的話，對很多企業來說，尤其臺灣這麼多的中小微企業，可能也不一定受得了。"],["王委員正旭：是，的確企業治理的部分，這部分未來可能面對的問題會更多，如果有好的方法，就可以減少這方面的困擾。很快再請教一下，我們知道目前在醫界或者是醫院服務時碰到一個滿困難的問題，就是護理人力的不足，這邊有沒有考慮未來針對於開放資深移工擔任護佐進度的部分，你們目前掌握的狀況如何？我們也了解這樣對於護理專業人力的安排可能會造成他們就業上的衝擊，這方面不曉得有沒有什麼因應措施在準備當中？"],["洪部長申翰：關於這部分，目前是在預告中，其實他是讓資深移工轉為中階的護佐。可是對於中階的護佐，其實我們是有設定門檻的，包括薪資門檻，包括技能門檻，甚至包括語言上面都有門檻，並不是沒有門檻的。至於相關的配套，衛福部也在做這樣的申請，我們也希望衛福部可以把護佐跟護理師之間關於工作分工的介面，其實應該要把它設定清楚，這也是相關的配套，才能讓這個分工……或者衛福部當初來跟勞動部提出申請的時候，怎麼樣讓這個分工可以真的有效。"],["王委員正旭：好。接下來下一個問題，請部長稍微說明一下關於直聘的部分，我們也知道，透過直聘，可以讓不管是農業或者是機構看護移工的部分可以更迅速因應現在這些問題，這部分請部長也說明一下，跟印度或者是原來這些移工的國家有談論到這部分嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：有的，因為立法院對於印度移工的引進非常關心直聘的問題。所以我們其實也把我們臺方希望在直聘上面的期待很清楚地跟印方表達。但是現在確實大家在執行面的技術狀況，大家還在做一些磋商，因為國會也非常關注，所以我們有好幾度再跟印方表達我們在臺印之間移工引進的問題上面，我們對於直聘的期待。"],["王委員正旭：好，今天就用這些問題來跟部長請教，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝部長。","等一下在蘇清泉委員質詢完畢後，我們處理臨時提案。"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：下一位請蘇召委詢答，請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","盧縣一","洪孟楷","王正旭","黃秀芳","陳瑩","劉建國","廖先翔","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱若華","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00005"}}}