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{\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 169.591, \"end\": 196.325, \"text\": \"因為那個就業部長我在高鐵上跟他同車他也一直在抱怨說統三下來的錢到底我分到多少是不是這樣所以他也不曉得要怎麼做行政院也不曉得要怎麼做是不是這樣就是對目前就是有一個636億不明確是要刪減什麼項目好那你現在互利也沒有過了那你們現在怎麼辦\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 169.591, \"end\": 170.211, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 170.211, \"end\": 171.552, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 171.552, \"end\": 171.752, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 171.752, \"end\": 172.332, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 172.332, \"end\": 172.472, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 172.472, \"end\": 172.633, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 172.633, \"end\": 172.953, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"鐵\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 172.953, \"end\": 173.513, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 173.513, \"end\": 173.613, \"score\": 0.942}, 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{\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 230.705, \"end\": 230.805, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 230.805, \"end\": 230.906, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"六\", \"start\": 230.906, \"end\": 230.966, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"百\", \"start\": 230.966, \"end\": 232.449, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 232.449, \"end\": 232.589, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 232.589, \"end\": 232.689, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 232.689, \"end\": 233.29, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 233.29, \"end\": 233.411, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 233.411, \"end\": 233.591, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 233.591, \"end\": 233.751, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 233.751, \"end\": 233.852, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 233.852, \"end\": 233.912, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 868.402, \"end\": 868.482, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 868.482, \"end\": 868.522, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 868.522, \"end\": 869.503, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 869.503, \"end\": 869.523, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,998 --> 00:00:04,761\n我們下一位請蘇昭偉詢答請謝謝主席我請我們副審計長跟副組計長\n\n2\n00:00:32,392 --> 00:00:56,329\n主席總署嘛你是行政議員是你副審議長你是鑑產議員今天在這裡說鑑產議員鑑產議員你就是鑑產議員你都這樣撒來撒去好我們這個預算編列到預算執行到結算之後我要請問主席處你們的主席總署你們的角色是什麼\n\n3\n00:00:58,005 --> 00:01:16,665\n跟我們報告就是說基本上從預算籌編開始那我們就是會請各部會來提需求那我們就是會進行會診那會再區分他如果是屬於公共建設科技等等會有一些先期\n\n4\n00:01:18,026 --> 00:01:41,599\n計畫的這個審議機關像國發會科科技部等等那最後我們就把這個會診的結果經過一個會議審查以後提報到行政院院會院會通過以後就送立法院大概我們的角色是這樣所以你們是先前譬如說明年115年的預算你們現在就開始在張羅嗎那你們開始邊邊邊你們是負責前半段嗎\n\n5\n00:01:46,104 --> 00:02:06,807\n那各個部會怎麼編怎麼編這樣嘛後來大家上行政院院會後通過再上過來立法院嘛那立法院審查像這次有一些凍結的有一些核酸的那你們再報回去之後請問你們是怎麼分配\n\n6\n00:02:07,935 --> 00:02:21,022\n我看那邊主席長都在哀哀說什麼沒辦法分配沒辦法凍結的他沒有辦法分配到底這是怎麼一回事你要講清楚因為沒有多少人聽得懂\n\n7\n00:02:21,941 --> 00:02:22,621\n所以你就卡在哪裡?\n\n8\n00:02:49,591 --> 00:03:16,325\n因為那個就業部長我在高鐵上跟他同車他也一直在抱怨說統三下來的錢到底我分到多少是不是這樣所以他也不曉得要怎麼做行政院也不曉得要怎麼做是不是這樣就是對目前就是有一個636億不明確是要刪減什麼項目好那你現在互利也沒有過了那你們現在怎麼辦\n\n9\n00:03:18,962 --> 00:03:47,135\n現在基本上就是說就跟那個剛剛部長講的是一樣的問題嘛那種有的刪有的動那再來就3到600多億那個怎麼分法定部要分到多少要分到多少是不是這樣就是跟委員報告就是因為這個636億的不確定性就連動到後面要採取什麼的措施就變成一種困難\n\n10\n00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:53,932\n所以現在已經四月了你們現在怎麼辦因為六百多一直還是不確定所以勒\n\n11\n00:03:59,844 --> 00:04:07,027\n所以現在就是說我一直叫勞動部叫衛務部趕快來申請解凍但是解凍是另外一個啦這個600多億是統3的嘛是不是要講清楚喔對就是900多億裡面有明確項目的扣除以後還有636億是不明確所以是3的嘛是3減的部分\n\n12\n00:04:29,157 --> 00:04:30,100\n所以這張卡在這裡不知道要怎麼錄是好那\n\n13\n00:04:34,715 --> 00:04:57,621\n審計部你的感受是什麼跟委員報告就是大院審議中央政府總預算案通過了像總統如果公佈之後他們各部會就會把那個每個月的分配預算都會分配分配之後審計部的主要的職長之一就是會監督預算執行\n\n14\n00:05:02,162 --> 00:05:15,167\n從這個會計年度一開始到結束我們都是包括平常的會計報告的審核分配預算的查核到實際的派員就地去財務搜索抽查另外一部分是專案調查\n\n15\n00:05:16,707 --> 00:05:27,743\n所以你114年的預算現在互裔也沒過了所以呢現在總統府也公佈了所以你是114年按頁\n\n16\n00:05:30,902 --> 00:05:57,805\n跟攤每個月都有在追蹤考核是這樣嗎每個月都有審核還是等到115年都不料啊我們的審核包括書面審核書面審核就平常破櫃資訊系統跟機關送過來的會計報告我們也會線上去看他的交易憑證這個是平常就在做然後也要例行派員到各部會去就地抽查\n\n17\n00:05:59,126 --> 00:06:22,261\n這個是從年頭到年尾都好那剛剛主計處那邊講的600多億未定那你們怎麼弄我們根據他確定的就是他們確定的不會確定的我們根據那個數字來所以主計處你現在那個600多億你說未定你們現在要怎麼談你還沒有ideaIhavenoidea\n\n18\n00:06:23,340 --> 00:06:51,014\n就是說因為這個不確定涉及到行政跟立法的這個部分所以變成他沒有辦法透過行政部門這一邊獨立去解決這個問題所以這個變成說可能就必須有看是不是透過進一步的協商還是什麼就必須行政立法再度的來處理這個問題好了解好那你們兩個請回吧部長瑪莉亞\n\n19\n00:07:01,338 --> 00:07:29,255\n書人好今天要講的這個題目事實上也不是你任上花生的啦這是去年甚至前年的事情那你是一個政務官嘛那你講白一點你拍拍屁股就可以走人啦對不對所以受苦受難的是我們勞動部這些事務官公務人員我覺得他們是很辛苦的他們的士氣蠻低迷的\n\n20\n00:07:30,575 --> 00:07:42,001\n那你大家又有人搶你有在搶嗎我不知道啦搶那個公園是我們部裡面最重要的資產\n\n21\n00:07:43,359 --> 00:08:10,186\n沒有公務人員是我們的資產國家的財產我們都要疼惜啦這個是不管藍執政不管綠執政這些公務人員他們都是要幹到退休的那我是一直覺得我們公務人員好不容易拆車拆到要死然後課高考課特考課薪水那麼低來這邊天天被罵我是覺得那是我不太想幹啦\n\n22\n00:08:11,906 --> 00:08:38,813\n真的真的所以我們要跟他們加油啦跟他們打氣那因為以前真的是有點脫序那現在你來就更嚴格所以一磚一瓦都管得那麼嚴我是覺得有時候也要檢討啦也是要幫他練的啦一陣緊一陣鬆另外也是一樣啦所以我建議就是好好的來\n\n23\n00:08:42,053 --> 00:08:54,960\n檢討檢討啦我看你從上任到現在都非常戰爭津津啊我有問你好幾次啊你說你都用那個聖上仙術在維持我不曉得真的還假的\n\n24\n00:08:56,496 --> 00:09:22,777\n好我問一個我們現在救援基金現在是現在有多少錢現在目前有400多億那這一次這個美國川普這樣亂搞那我們已經很多有中部的一些譬如說紡織的或者是做螺絲的他們已經被美國的客戶已經通知說先不要出貨三個月\n\n25\n00:09:24,128 --> 00:09:28,012\n我現在問說要不要出路三個,大家就不理我不慷慨了嘛馬上出問題啊\n\n26\n00:09:32,946 --> 00:09:52,923\n那換無薪假也罷領半薪也罷你們現在是打算怎麼去幫助這些勞工這個最實際喔跟蘇緯說明喔確實在這個禮拜裡面陸陸續續其實聽到一些來自包括美國的進口商跟我們台灣的製造商或出口商開始有一些在討論訂單上面的變動的狀況這是有的\n\n27\n00:09:56,306 --> 00:10:23,317\n那當然下一步會看這一些台灣的廠商他有些他可能會調動他的產線有些他可能會做他自己內部上面相關排班的調整可是我要說的是說我們是很不希望是走到比方說會是解雇的這個狀況或者是大量解雇那我們當然也會我們會在相關的機制上面做一些把關我們也不希望企業來濫用像這個減班休息的做法\n\n28\n00:10:25,092 --> 00:10:38,191\n俗稱減班休息有人會俗稱無薪假可是他並不是真的無薪因為台灣的減班休息其實都是要還是要給最低工資的那是要給最低工資但是如果最低工資這一段你們有沒有補沒有\n\n29\n00:10:41,454 --> 00:11:04,421\n如果有準備休息的狀況的話我們其實有相對應包括像充電才出發或者是有一些包括像雇用安定的措施來可能可以來去協助這個勞工他在收入上面的做法我們其實過去是有包括疫情的時候金融海嘯的時候是有這樣的經驗那我們也把過去的這些措施這些措施都還在\n\n30\n00:11:04,901 --> 00:11:26,130\n但我們也在規劃一個更針對目前關稅因應關稅的版本來去更清楚的因地制宜或者是來去設定現有的情境下面怎麼樣包括它的適用範圍甚至會不會在某些部分需要支持力度的加碼其實我們都在目前在做一個這樣子量身訂做的設定\n\n31\n00:11:28,211 --> 00:11:36,259\n好那我們百姓共和國一般民眾的情感每次都在問你這次要怎麼退回來我是認為像這個是\n\n32\n00:11:45,031 --> 00:12:11,448\n再出發的這個是乍臨的再下一張你要去追這些錢回來勢必要有有憑有據嘛你不能說你部長想說要跟人家賺錢你是平常要跟人家賺錢所以一定要換你判斷說他有安若端有福利或是說有總保私囊這個一定要判決你才能辦法去要嘛對不對部長是不是這樣我們如果要跟個人\n\n33\n00:12:12,669 --> 00:12:41,258\n包括甚至包括決策者要去做相關的追究或追討的話當然要有法律上面的依據他如果沒有把錢放在自己的口袋裡面你會說他是圖利啊怎麼樣不然的話你要去最後要去把他追錢窩香沒有那麼簡單耶所以就是看說還是要看有沒有法律上面的依據如果有這個法律上的依據的話那當然該怎麼做就要怎麼做啊\n\n34\n00:12:42,708 --> 00:12:49,001\n可是前提是所以這是為什麼我們說我們會來配合檢調或司法的結果來做相關的追究\n\n35\n00:12:50,758 --> 00:13:17,383\n像陳基普講的說要等到他判刑現在都起訴嘛起訴之後一審、二審、三審要不然到底判定沒有兩三年搞不定啦就我們目前看到檢調的起訴書上面的內容的話如果剛才蘇緣講的是謝前分署長的狀況的話看起來他在檢調寫的上面他已經把他不罰所得其實已經有返還了\n\n36\n00:13:18,220 --> 00:13:21,370\n好像有一百萬拿多少就繳出去應該不是這個數字兩萬多塊\n\n37\n00:13:26,488 --> 00:13:47,973\n所以那個前部長前前部長跟鋁派界定我看他只有唱歌而已啊我看他沒有幹瑕事啊所以那個要怎麼去追尋我是覺得大家情感歸情感啦不然還是要回歸講道理跟回歸法治面啦所以法務部那個那個審計部叫你要從邊或者怎麼樣這個也都可以理解啦\n\n38\n00:13:57,393 --> 00:14:18,855\n不過汪洋普勞你往後的要更嚴格我認為你是不會你是很嚴的像現在這種脫序的行為我是當然是不對啦所以我再次的跟我們勞動部我們公務員加油然後要請部長\n\n39\n00:14:24,099 --> 00:14:29,523\n我會很謝謝我們公務的同仁因為他們是最辛苦的謝謝好謝謝蘇青委員的發言謝謝部長的答案\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2998\t4761\t我們下一位請蘇昭偉詢答請謝謝主席我請我們副審計長跟副組計長\n32392\t56329\t主席總署嘛 你是行政議員是你副審議長 你是鑑產議員今天在這裡說鑑產議員 鑑產議員你就是鑑產議員 你都這樣撒來撒去好 我們這個預算編列到預算執行到結算之後我要請問主席處你們的 主席總署你們的角色是什麼\n58005\t76665\t跟我們報告就是說基本上從預算籌編開始那我們就是會請各部會來提需求那我們就是會進行會診那會再區分他如果是屬於公共建設科技等等會有一些先期\n78026\t101599\t計畫的這個審議機關像國發會科科技部等等那最後我們就把這個會診的結果經過一個會議審查以後提報到行政院院會院會通過以後就送立法院大概我們的角色是這樣所以你們是先前譬如說明年115年的預算你們現在就開始在張羅嗎那你們開始邊邊邊你們是負責前半段嗎\n106104\t126807\t那各個部會怎麼編怎麼編 這樣嘛後來大家上行政院 院會後通過 再上過來立法院嘛那立法院審查像這次有一些凍結的 有一些核酸的那你們再報回去之後 請問你們是怎麼分配\n127935\t141022\t我看那邊主席長都在哀哀說什麼沒辦法分配沒辦法凍結的他沒有辦法分配到底這是怎麼一回事你要講清楚因為沒有多少人聽得懂\n141941\t142621\t所以你就卡在哪裡?\n169591\t196325\t因為那個就業部長我在高鐵上跟他同車他也一直在抱怨說統三下來的錢到底我分到多少是不是這樣所以他也不曉得要怎麼做行政院也不曉得要怎麼做是不是這樣就是對目前就是有一個636億不明確是要刪減什麼項目好那你現在互利也沒有過了那你們現在怎麼辦\n198962\t227135\t現在基本上就是說就跟那個剛剛部長講的是一樣的問題嘛那種有的刪有的動那再來就3到600多億那個怎麼分法定部要分到多少要分到多少是不是這樣就是跟委員報告就是因為這個636億的不確定性就連動到後面要採取什麼的措施就變成一種困難\n228200\t233932\t所以現在已經四月了 你們現在怎麼辦因為六百多一直還是不確定所以勒\n239844\t247027\t所以現在就是說我一直叫勞動部叫衛務部趕快來申請解凍但是解凍是另外一個啦這個600多億是統3的嘛是不是要講清楚喔對就是900多億裡面有明確項目的扣除以後還有636億是不明確所以是3的嘛是3減的部分\n269157\t270100\t所以這張卡在這裡不知道要怎麼錄是好那\n274715\t297621\t審計部你的感受是什麼跟委員報告就是大院審議中央政府總預算案通過了像總統如果公佈之後他們各部會就會把那個每個月的分配預算都會分配分配之後審計部的主要的職長之一就是會監督預算執行\n302162\t315167\t從這個會計年度一開始到結束我們都是包括平常的會計報告的審核分配預算的查核到實際的派員就地去財務搜索抽查另外一部分是專案調查\n316707\t327743\t所以你114年的預算現在互裔也沒過了所以呢現在總統府也公佈了所以你是114年按頁\n330902\t357805\t跟攤每個月都有在追蹤考核是這樣嗎每個月都有審核還是等到115年都不料啊我們的審核包括書面審核書面審核就平常破櫃資訊系統跟機關送過來的會計報告我們也會線上去看他的交易憑證這個是平常就在做然後也要例行派員到各部會去就地抽查\n359126\t382261\t這個是從年頭到年尾都好那剛剛主計處那邊講的600多億未定那你們怎麼弄我們根據他確定的就是他們確定的不會確定的我們根據那個數字來所以主計處你現在那個600多億你說未定你們現在要怎麼談你還沒有ideaI have no idea\n383340\t411014\t就是說因為這個不確定涉及到行政跟立法的這個部分所以變成他沒有辦法透過行政部門這一邊獨立去解決這個問題所以這個變成說可能就必須有看是不是透過進一步的協商還是什麼就必須行政立法再度的來處理這個問題好 了解好 那你們兩個請回吧部長 瑪莉亞\n421338\t449255\t書人好今天要講的這個題目事實上也不是你任上花生的啦這是去年甚至前年的事情那你是一個政務官嘛那你講白一點你拍拍屁股就可以走人啦對不對所以受苦受難的是我們勞動部這些事務官公務人員我覺得他們是很辛苦的他們的士氣蠻低迷的\n450575\t462001\t那你大家又有人搶 你有在搶嗎 我不知道啦搶那個公園是我們部裡面最重要的資產\n463359\t490186\t沒有 公務人員是我們的資產 國家的財產我們都要疼惜啦這個是不管藍執政 不管綠執政這些公務人員他們都是要幹到退休的那我是一直覺得我們公務人員好不容易拆車拆到要死然後課高考 課特考 課薪水那麼低來這邊天天被罵 我是覺得那是我不太想幹啦\n491906\t518813\t真的真的所以我們要跟他們加油啦跟他們打氣那因為以前真的是有點脫序那現在你來就更嚴格所以一磚一瓦都管得那麼嚴我是覺得有時候也要檢討啦也是要幫他練的啦一陣緊一陣鬆另外也是一樣啦所以我建議就是好好的來\n522053\t534960\t檢討檢討啦我看你從上任到現在都非常戰爭津津啊我有問你好幾次啊你說你都用那個聖上仙術在維持我不曉得真的還假的\n536496\t562777\t好我問一個我們現在救援基金現在是現在有多少錢現在目前有400多億那這一次這個美國川普這樣亂搞那我們已經很多有中部的一些譬如說紡織的或者是做螺絲的他們已經被美國的客戶已經通知說先不要出貨三個月\n564128\t568012\t我現在問說要不要出路三個,大家就不理我不慷慨了嘛馬上出問題啊\n572946\t592923\t那換無薪假也罷 領半薪也罷你們現在是打算怎麼去幫助這些勞工 這個最實際喔跟蘇緯說明喔 確實在這個禮拜裡面陸陸續續其實聽到一些來自包括美國的進口商跟我們台灣的製造商或出口商開始有一些在討論訂單上面的變動的狀況 這是有的\n596306\t623317\t那當然下一步會看這一些台灣的廠商他有些他可能會調動他的產線有些他可能會做他自己內部上面相關排班的調整可是我要說的是說我們是很不希望是走到比方說會是解雇的這個狀況或者是大量解雇那我們當然也會我們會在相關的機制上面做一些把關我們也不希望企業來濫用像這個減班休息的做法\n625092\t638191\t俗稱減班休息有人會俗稱無薪假可是他並不是真的無薪因為台灣的減班休息其實都是要還是要給最低工資的那是要給最低工資但是如果最低工資這一段你們有沒有補沒有\n641454\t664421\t如果有準備休息的狀況的話我們其實有相對應包括像充電才出發或者是有一些包括像雇用安定的措施來可能可以來去協助這個勞工他在收入上面的做法我們其實過去是有包括疫情的時候金融海嘯的時候是有這樣的經驗那我們也把過去的這些措施這些措施都還在\n664901\t686130\t但我們也在規劃一個更針對目前關稅因應關稅的版本來去更清楚的因地制宜或者是來去設定現有的情境下面怎麼樣包括它的適用範圍甚至會不會在某些部分需要支持力度的加碼其實我們都在目前在做一個這樣子量身訂做的設定\n688211\t696259\t好 那我們百姓 共和國一般民眾的情感每次都在問你這次要怎麼退回來我是認為 像這個是\n705031\t731448\t再出發的這個是乍臨的 再下一張你要去追這些錢回來勢必要有有憑有據嘛你不能說你部長想說要跟人家賺錢 你是平常要跟人家賺錢所以一定要 換你判斷說他有安若端有福利或是說有總保私囊這個一定要判決你才能辦法去要嘛 對不對 部長是不是這樣我們如果要跟個人\n732669\t761258\t包括甚至包括決策者要去做相關的追究或追討的話當然要有法律上面的依據他如果沒有把錢放在自己的口袋裡面你會說他是圖利啊怎麼樣不然的話你要去最後要去把他追錢窩香沒有那麼簡單耶所以就是看說還是要看有沒有法律上面的依據如果有這個法律上的依據的話那當然該怎麼做就要怎麼做啊\n762708\t769001\t可是前提是所以這是為什麼我們說我們會來配合檢調或司法的結果來做相關的追究\n770758\t797383\t像陳基普講的說要等到他判刑現在都起訴嘛起訴之後一審、二審、三審要不然到底判定沒有兩三年搞不定啦就我們目前看到檢調的起訴書上面的內容的話如果剛才蘇緣講的是謝前分署長的狀況的話看起來他在檢調寫的上面他已經把他不罰所得其實已經有返還了\n798220\t801370\t好像有一百萬拿多少就繳出去應該不是這個數字兩萬多塊\n806488\t827973\t所以那個前部長 前前部長跟鋁派界定我看他只有唱歌而已啊我看他沒有幹瑕事啊所以那個要怎麼去追尋我是覺得大家情感歸情感啦不然還是要回歸講道理跟回歸法治面啦所以法務部 那個那個 審計部叫你要從邊或者怎麼樣這個也都可以理解啦\n837393\t858855\t不過汪洋普勞你往後的要更嚴格我認為你是不會你是很嚴的像現在這種脫序的行為我是當然是不對啦所以我再次的跟我們勞動部我們公務員加油然後要請部長\n864099\t869523\t我會很謝謝我們公務的同仁因為他們是最辛苦的謝謝好 謝謝蘇青委員的發言謝謝部長的答案\n","txt":"我們下一位請蘇昭偉詢答請謝謝主席我請我們副審計長跟副組計長\n主席總署嘛 你是行政議員是你副審議長 你是鑑產議員今天在這裡說鑑產議員 鑑產議員你就是鑑產議員 你都這樣撒來撒去好 我們這個預算編列到預算執行到結算之後我要請問主席處你們的 主席總署你們的角色是什麼\n跟我們報告就是說基本上從預算籌編開始那我們就是會請各部會來提需求那我們就是會進行會診那會再區分他如果是屬於公共建設科技等等會有一些先期\n計畫的這個審議機關像國發會科科技部等等那最後我們就把這個會診的結果經過一個會議審查以後提報到行政院院會院會通過以後就送立法院大概我們的角色是這樣所以你們是先前譬如說明年115年的預算你們現在就開始在張羅嗎那你們開始邊邊邊你們是負責前半段嗎\n那各個部會怎麼編怎麼編 這樣嘛後來大家上行政院 院會後通過 再上過來立法院嘛那立法院審查像這次有一些凍結的 有一些核酸的那你們再報回去之後 請問你們是怎麼分配\n我看那邊主席長都在哀哀說什麼沒辦法分配沒辦法凍結的他沒有辦法分配到底這是怎麼一回事你要講清楚因為沒有多少人聽得懂\n所以你就卡在哪裡?\n因為那個就業部長我在高鐵上跟他同車他也一直在抱怨說統三下來的錢到底我分到多少是不是這樣所以他也不曉得要怎麼做行政院也不曉得要怎麼做是不是這樣就是對目前就是有一個636億不明確是要刪減什麼項目好那你現在互利也沒有過了那你們現在怎麼辦\n現在基本上就是說就跟那個剛剛部長講的是一樣的問題嘛那種有的刪有的動那再來就3到600多億那個怎麼分法定部要分到多少要分到多少是不是這樣就是跟委員報告就是因為這個636億的不確定性就連動到後面要採取什麼的措施就變成一種困難\n所以現在已經四月了 你們現在怎麼辦因為六百多一直還是不確定所以勒\n所以現在就是說我一直叫勞動部叫衛務部趕快來申請解凍但是解凍是另外一個啦這個600多億是統3的嘛是不是要講清楚喔對就是900多億裡面有明確項目的扣除以後還有636億是不明確所以是3的嘛是3減的部分\n所以這張卡在這裡不知道要怎麼錄是好那\n審計部你的感受是什麼跟委員報告就是大院審議中央政府總預算案通過了像總統如果公佈之後他們各部會就會把那個每個月的分配預算都會分配分配之後審計部的主要的職長之一就是會監督預算執行\n從這個會計年度一開始到結束我們都是包括平常的會計報告的審核分配預算的查核到實際的派員就地去財務搜索抽查另外一部分是專案調查\n所以你114年的預算現在互裔也沒過了所以呢現在總統府也公佈了所以你是114年按頁\n跟攤每個月都有在追蹤考核是這樣嗎每個月都有審核還是等到115年都不料啊我們的審核包括書面審核書面審核就平常破櫃資訊系統跟機關送過來的會計報告我們也會線上去看他的交易憑證這個是平常就在做然後也要例行派員到各部會去就地抽查\n這個是從年頭到年尾都好那剛剛主計處那邊講的600多億未定那你們怎麼弄我們根據他確定的就是他們確定的不會確定的我們根據那個數字來所以主計處你現在那個600多億你說未定你們現在要怎麼談你還沒有ideaI have no idea\n就是說因為這個不確定涉及到行政跟立法的這個部分所以變成他沒有辦法透過行政部門這一邊獨立去解決這個問題所以這個變成說可能就必須有看是不是透過進一步的協商還是什麼就必須行政立法再度的來處理這個問題好 了解好 那你們兩個請回吧部長 瑪莉亞\n書人好今天要講的這個題目事實上也不是你任上花生的啦這是去年甚至前年的事情那你是一個政務官嘛那你講白一點你拍拍屁股就可以走人啦對不對所以受苦受難的是我們勞動部這些事務官公務人員我覺得他們是很辛苦的他們的士氣蠻低迷的\n那你大家又有人搶 你有在搶嗎 我不知道啦搶那個公園是我們部裡面最重要的資產\n沒有 公務人員是我們的資產 國家的財產我們都要疼惜啦這個是不管藍執政 不管綠執政這些公務人員他們都是要幹到退休的那我是一直覺得我們公務人員好不容易拆車拆到要死然後課高考 課特考 課薪水那麼低來這邊天天被罵 我是覺得那是我不太想幹啦\n真的真的所以我們要跟他們加油啦跟他們打氣那因為以前真的是有點脫序那現在你來就更嚴格所以一磚一瓦都管得那麼嚴我是覺得有時候也要檢討啦也是要幫他練的啦一陣緊一陣鬆另外也是一樣啦所以我建議就是好好的來\n檢討檢討啦我看你從上任到現在都非常戰爭津津啊我有問你好幾次啊你說你都用那個聖上仙術在維持我不曉得真的還假的\n好我問一個我們現在救援基金現在是現在有多少錢現在目前有400多億那這一次這個美國川普這樣亂搞那我們已經很多有中部的一些譬如說紡織的或者是做螺絲的他們已經被美國的客戶已經通知說先不要出貨三個月\n我現在問說要不要出路三個,大家就不理我不慷慨了嘛馬上出問題啊\n那換無薪假也罷 領半薪也罷你們現在是打算怎麼去幫助這些勞工 這個最實際喔跟蘇緯說明喔 確實在這個禮拜裡面陸陸續續其實聽到一些來自包括美國的進口商跟我們台灣的製造商或出口商開始有一些在討論訂單上面的變動的狀況 這是有的\n那當然下一步會看這一些台灣的廠商他有些他可能會調動他的產線有些他可能會做他自己內部上面相關排班的調整可是我要說的是說我們是很不希望是走到比方說會是解雇的這個狀況或者是大量解雇那我們當然也會我們會在相關的機制上面做一些把關我們也不希望企業來濫用像這個減班休息的做法\n俗稱減班休息有人會俗稱無薪假可是他並不是真的無薪因為台灣的減班休息其實都是要還是要給最低工資的那是要給最低工資但是如果最低工資這一段你們有沒有補沒有\n如果有準備休息的狀況的話我們其實有相對應包括像充電才出發或者是有一些包括像雇用安定的措施來可能可以來去協助這個勞工他在收入上面的做法我們其實過去是有包括疫情的時候金融海嘯的時候是有這樣的經驗那我們也把過去的這些措施這些措施都還在\n但我們也在規劃一個更針對目前關稅因應關稅的版本來去更清楚的因地制宜或者是來去設定現有的情境下面怎麼樣包括它的適用範圍甚至會不會在某些部分需要支持力度的加碼其實我們都在目前在做一個這樣子量身訂做的設定\n好 那我們百姓 共和國一般民眾的情感每次都在問你這次要怎麼退回來我是認為 像這個是\n再出發的這個是乍臨的 再下一張你要去追這些錢回來勢必要有有憑有據嘛你不能說你部長想說要跟人家賺錢 你是平常要跟人家賺錢所以一定要 換你判斷說他有安若端有福利或是說有總保私囊這個一定要判決你才能辦法去要嘛 對不對 部長是不是這樣我們如果要跟個人\n包括甚至包括決策者要去做相關的追究或追討的話當然要有法律上面的依據他如果沒有把錢放在自己的口袋裡面你會說他是圖利啊怎麼樣不然的話你要去最後要去把他追錢窩香沒有那麼簡單耶所以就是看說還是要看有沒有法律上面的依據如果有這個法律上的依據的話那當然該怎麼做就要怎麼做啊\n可是前提是所以這是為什麼我們說我們會來配合檢調或司法的結果來做相關的追究\n像陳基普講的說要等到他判刑現在都起訴嘛起訴之後一審、二審、三審要不然到底判定沒有兩三年搞不定啦就我們目前看到檢調的起訴書上面的內容的話如果剛才蘇緣講的是謝前分署長的狀況的話看起來他在檢調寫的上面他已經把他不罰所得其實已經有返還了\n好像有一百萬拿多少就繳出去應該不是這個數字兩萬多塊\n所以那個前部長 前前部長跟鋁派界定我看他只有唱歌而已啊我看他沒有幹瑕事啊所以那個要怎麼去追尋我是覺得大家情感歸情感啦不然還是要回歸講道理跟回歸法治面啦所以法務部 那個那個 審計部叫你要從邊或者怎麼樣這個也都可以理解啦\n不過汪洋普勞你往後的要更嚴格我認為你是不會你是很嚴的像現在這種脫序的行為我是當然是不對啦所以我再次的跟我們勞動部我們公務員加油然後要請部長\n我會很謝謝我們公務的同仁因為他們是最辛苦的謝謝好 謝謝蘇青委員的發言謝謝部長的答案\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.998 --> 00:04.761\n我們下一位請蘇昭偉詢答請謝謝主席我請我們副審計長跟副組計長\n\n00:32.392 --> 00:56.329\n主席總署嘛你是行政議員是你副審議長你是鑑產議員今天在這裡說鑑產議員鑑產議員你就是鑑產議員你都這樣撒來撒去好我們這個預算編列到預算執行到結算之後我要請問主席處你們的主席總署你們的角色是什麼\n\n00:58.005 --> 01:16.665\n跟我們報告就是說基本上從預算籌編開始那我們就是會請各部會來提需求那我們就是會進行會診那會再區分他如果是屬於公共建設科技等等會有一些先期\n\n01:18.026 --> 01:41.599\n計畫的這個審議機關像國發會科科技部等等那最後我們就把這個會診的結果經過一個會議審查以後提報到行政院院會院會通過以後就送立法院大概我們的角色是這樣所以你們是先前譬如說明年115年的預算你們現在就開始在張羅嗎那你們開始邊邊邊你們是負責前半段嗎\n\n01:46.104 --> 02:06.807\n那各個部會怎麼編怎麼編這樣嘛後來大家上行政院院會後通過再上過來立法院嘛那立法院審查像這次有一些凍結的有一些核酸的那你們再報回去之後請問你們是怎麼分配\n\n02:07.935 --> 02:21.022\n我看那邊主席長都在哀哀說什麼沒辦法分配沒辦法凍結的他沒有辦法分配到底這是怎麼一回事你要講清楚因為沒有多少人聽得懂\n\n02:21.941 --> 02:22.621\n所以你就卡在哪裡?\n\n02:49.591 --> 03:16.325\n因為那個就業部長我在高鐵上跟他同車他也一直在抱怨說統三下來的錢到底我分到多少是不是這樣所以他也不曉得要怎麼做行政院也不曉得要怎麼做是不是這樣就是對目前就是有一個636億不明確是要刪減什麼項目好那你現在互利也沒有過了那你們現在怎麼辦\n\n03:18.962 --> 03:47.135\n現在基本上就是說就跟那個剛剛部長講的是一樣的問題嘛那種有的刪有的動那再來就3到600多億那個怎麼分法定部要分到多少要分到多少是不是這樣就是跟委員報告就是因為這個636億的不確定性就連動到後面要採取什麼的措施就變成一種困難\n\n03:48.200 --> 03:53.932\n所以現在已經四月了你們現在怎麼辦因為六百多一直還是不確定所以勒\n\n03:59.844 --> 04:07.027\n所以現在就是說我一直叫勞動部叫衛務部趕快來申請解凍但是解凍是另外一個啦這個600多億是統3的嘛是不是要講清楚喔對就是900多億裡面有明確項目的扣除以後還有636億是不明確所以是3的嘛是3減的部分\n\n04:29.157 --> 04:30.100\n所以這張卡在這裡不知道要怎麼錄是好那\n\n04:34.715 --> 04:57.621\n審計部你的感受是什麼跟委員報告就是大院審議中央政府總預算案通過了像總統如果公佈之後他們各部會就會把那個每個月的分配預算都會分配分配之後審計部的主要的職長之一就是會監督預算執行\n\n05:02.162 --> 05:15.167\n從這個會計年度一開始到結束我們都是包括平常的會計報告的審核分配預算的查核到實際的派員就地去財務搜索抽查另外一部分是專案調查\n\n05:16.707 --> 05:27.743\n所以你114年的預算現在互裔也沒過了所以呢現在總統府也公佈了所以你是114年按頁\n\n05:30.902 --> 05:57.805\n跟攤每個月都有在追蹤考核是這樣嗎每個月都有審核還是等到115年都不料啊我們的審核包括書面審核書面審核就平常破櫃資訊系統跟機關送過來的會計報告我們也會線上去看他的交易憑證這個是平常就在做然後也要例行派員到各部會去就地抽查\n\n05:59.126 --> 06:22.261\n這個是從年頭到年尾都好那剛剛主計處那邊講的600多億未定那你們怎麼弄我們根據他確定的就是他們確定的不會確定的我們根據那個數字來所以主計處你現在那個600多億你說未定你們現在要怎麼談你還沒有ideaIhavenoidea\n\n06:23.340 --> 06:51.014\n就是說因為這個不確定涉及到行政跟立法的這個部分所以變成他沒有辦法透過行政部門這一邊獨立去解決這個問題所以這個變成說可能就必須有看是不是透過進一步的協商還是什麼就必須行政立法再度的來處理這個問題好了解好那你們兩個請回吧部長瑪莉亞\n\n07:01.338 --> 07:29.255\n書人好今天要講的這個題目事實上也不是你任上花生的啦這是去年甚至前年的事情那你是一個政務官嘛那你講白一點你拍拍屁股就可以走人啦對不對所以受苦受難的是我們勞動部這些事務官公務人員我覺得他們是很辛苦的他們的士氣蠻低迷的\n\n07:30.575 --> 07:42.001\n那你大家又有人搶你有在搶嗎我不知道啦搶那個公園是我們部裡面最重要的資產\n\n07:43.359 --> 08:10.186\n沒有公務人員是我們的資產國家的財產我們都要疼惜啦這個是不管藍執政不管綠執政這些公務人員他們都是要幹到退休的那我是一直覺得我們公務人員好不容易拆車拆到要死然後課高考課特考課薪水那麼低來這邊天天被罵我是覺得那是我不太想幹啦\n\n08:11.906 --> 08:38.813\n真的真的所以我們要跟他們加油啦跟他們打氣那因為以前真的是有點脫序那現在你來就更嚴格所以一磚一瓦都管得那麼嚴我是覺得有時候也要檢討啦也是要幫他練的啦一陣緊一陣鬆另外也是一樣啦所以我建議就是好好的來\n\n08:42.053 --> 08:54.960\n檢討檢討啦我看你從上任到現在都非常戰爭津津啊我有問你好幾次啊你說你都用那個聖上仙術在維持我不曉得真的還假的\n\n08:56.496 --> 09:22.777\n好我問一個我們現在救援基金現在是現在有多少錢現在目前有400多億那這一次這個美國川普這樣亂搞那我們已經很多有中部的一些譬如說紡織的或者是做螺絲的他們已經被美國的客戶已經通知說先不要出貨三個月\n\n09:24.128 --> 09:28.012\n我現在問說要不要出路三個,大家就不理我不慷慨了嘛馬上出問題啊\n\n09:32.946 --> 09:52.923\n那換無薪假也罷領半薪也罷你們現在是打算怎麼去幫助這些勞工這個最實際喔跟蘇緯說明喔確實在這個禮拜裡面陸陸續續其實聽到一些來自包括美國的進口商跟我們台灣的製造商或出口商開始有一些在討論訂單上面的變動的狀況這是有的\n\n09:56.306 --> 10:23.317\n那當然下一步會看這一些台灣的廠商他有些他可能會調動他的產線有些他可能會做他自己內部上面相關排班的調整可是我要說的是說我們是很不希望是走到比方說會是解雇的這個狀況或者是大量解雇那我們當然也會我們會在相關的機制上面做一些把關我們也不希望企業來濫用像這個減班休息的做法\n\n10:25.092 --> 10:38.191\n俗稱減班休息有人會俗稱無薪假可是他並不是真的無薪因為台灣的減班休息其實都是要還是要給最低工資的那是要給最低工資但是如果最低工資這一段你們有沒有補沒有\n\n10:41.454 --> 11:04.421\n如果有準備休息的狀況的話我們其實有相對應包括像充電才出發或者是有一些包括像雇用安定的措施來可能可以來去協助這個勞工他在收入上面的做法我們其實過去是有包括疫情的時候金融海嘯的時候是有這樣的經驗那我們也把過去的這些措施這些措施都還在\n\n11:04.901 --> 11:26.130\n但我們也在規劃一個更針對目前關稅因應關稅的版本來去更清楚的因地制宜或者是來去設定現有的情境下面怎麼樣包括它的適用範圍甚至會不會在某些部分需要支持力度的加碼其實我們都在目前在做一個這樣子量身訂做的設定\n\n11:28.211 --> 11:36.259\n好那我們百姓共和國一般民眾的情感每次都在問你這次要怎麼退回來我是認為像這個是\n\n11:45.031 --> 12:11.448\n再出發的這個是乍臨的再下一張你要去追這些錢回來勢必要有有憑有據嘛你不能說你部長想說要跟人家賺錢你是平常要跟人家賺錢所以一定要換你判斷說他有安若端有福利或是說有總保私囊這個一定要判決你才能辦法去要嘛對不對部長是不是這樣我們如果要跟個人\n\n12:12.669 --> 12:41.258\n包括甚至包括決策者要去做相關的追究或追討的話當然要有法律上面的依據他如果沒有把錢放在自己的口袋裡面你會說他是圖利啊怎麼樣不然的話你要去最後要去把他追錢窩香沒有那麼簡單耶所以就是看說還是要看有沒有法律上面的依據如果有這個法律上的依據的話那當然該怎麼做就要怎麼做啊\n\n12:42.708 --> 12:49.001\n可是前提是所以這是為什麼我們說我們會來配合檢調或司法的結果來做相關的追究\n\n12:50.758 --> 13:17.383\n像陳基普講的說要等到他判刑現在都起訴嘛起訴之後一審、二審、三審要不然到底判定沒有兩三年搞不定啦就我們目前看到檢調的起訴書上面的內容的話如果剛才蘇緣講的是謝前分署長的狀況的話看起來他在檢調寫的上面他已經把他不罰所得其實已經有返還了\n\n13:18.220 --> 13:21.370\n好像有一百萬拿多少就繳出去應該不是這個數字兩萬多塊\n\n13:26.488 --> 13:47.973\n所以那個前部長前前部長跟鋁派界定我看他只有唱歌而已啊我看他沒有幹瑕事啊所以那個要怎麼去追尋我是覺得大家情感歸情感啦不然還是要回歸講道理跟回歸法治面啦所以法務部那個那個審計部叫你要從邊或者怎麼樣這個也都可以理解啦\n\n13:57.393 --> 14:18.855\n不過汪洋普勞你往後的要更嚴格我認為你是不會你是很嚴的像現在這種脫序的行為我是當然是不對啦所以我再次的跟我們勞動部我們公務員加油然後要請部長\n\n14:24.099 --> 14:29.523\n我會很謝謝我們公務的同仁因為他們是最辛苦的謝謝好謝謝蘇青委員的發言謝謝部長的答案\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.998,"end":4.761,"text":"我們下一位請蘇昭偉詢答請謝謝主席我請我們副審計長跟副組計長"},{"start":32.392,"end":56.329,"text":"主席總署嘛 你是行政議員是你副審議長 你是鑑產議員今天在這裡說鑑產議員 鑑產議員你就是鑑產議員 你都這樣撒來撒去好 我們這個預算編列到預算執行到結算之後我要請問主席處你們的 主席總署你們的角色是什麼"},{"start":58.005,"end":76.665,"text":"跟我們報告就是說基本上從預算籌編開始那我們就是會請各部會來提需求那我們就是會進行會診那會再區分他如果是屬於公共建設科技等等會有一些先期"},{"start":78.026,"end":101.599,"text":"計畫的這個審議機關像國發會科科技部等等那最後我們就把這個會診的結果經過一個會議審查以後提報到行政院院會院會通過以後就送立法院大概我們的角色是這樣所以你們是先前譬如說明年115年的預算你們現在就開始在張羅嗎那你們開始邊邊邊你們是負責前半段嗎"},{"start":106.104,"end":126.807,"text":"那各個部會怎麼編怎麼編 這樣嘛後來大家上行政院 院會後通過 再上過來立法院嘛那立法院審查像這次有一些凍結的 有一些核酸的那你們再報回去之後 請問你們是怎麼分配"},{"start":127.935,"end":141.022,"text":"我看那邊主席長都在哀哀說什麼沒辦法分配沒辦法凍結的他沒有辦法分配到底這是怎麼一回事你要講清楚因為沒有多少人聽得懂"},{"start":141.941,"end":142.621,"text":"所以你就卡在哪裡?"},{"start":169.591,"end":196.325,"text":"因為那個就業部長我在高鐵上跟他同車他也一直在抱怨說統三下來的錢到底我分到多少是不是這樣所以他也不曉得要怎麼做行政院也不曉得要怎麼做是不是這樣就是對目前就是有一個636億不明確是要刪減什麼項目好那你現在互利也沒有過了那你們現在怎麼辦"},{"start":198.962,"end":227.135,"text":"現在基本上就是說就跟那個剛剛部長講的是一樣的問題嘛那種有的刪有的動那再來就3到600多億那個怎麼分法定部要分到多少要分到多少是不是這樣就是跟委員報告就是因為這個636億的不確定性就連動到後面要採取什麼的措施就變成一種困難"},{"start":228.2,"end":233.932,"text":"所以現在已經四月了 你們現在怎麼辦因為六百多一直還是不確定所以勒"},{"start":239.844,"end":247.027,"text":"所以現在就是說我一直叫勞動部叫衛務部趕快來申請解凍但是解凍是另外一個啦這個600多億是統3的嘛是不是要講清楚喔對就是900多億裡面有明確項目的扣除以後還有636億是不明確所以是3的嘛是3減的部分"},{"start":269.157,"end":270.1,"text":"所以這張卡在這裡不知道要怎麼錄是好那"},{"start":274.715,"end":297.621,"text":"審計部你的感受是什麼跟委員報告就是大院審議中央政府總預算案通過了像總統如果公佈之後他們各部會就會把那個每個月的分配預算都會分配分配之後審計部的主要的職長之一就是會監督預算執行"},{"start":302.162,"end":315.167,"text":"從這個會計年度一開始到結束我們都是包括平常的會計報告的審核分配預算的查核到實際的派員就地去財務搜索抽查另外一部分是專案調查"},{"start":316.707,"end":327.743,"text":"所以你114年的預算現在互裔也沒過了所以呢現在總統府也公佈了所以你是114年按頁"},{"start":330.902,"end":357.805,"text":"跟攤每個月都有在追蹤考核是這樣嗎每個月都有審核還是等到115年都不料啊我們的審核包括書面審核書面審核就平常破櫃資訊系統跟機關送過來的會計報告我們也會線上去看他的交易憑證這個是平常就在做然後也要例行派員到各部會去就地抽查"},{"start":359.126,"end":382.261,"text":"這個是從年頭到年尾都好那剛剛主計處那邊講的600多億未定那你們怎麼弄我們根據他確定的就是他們確定的不會確定的我們根據那個數字來所以主計處你現在那個600多億你說未定你們現在要怎麼談你還沒有ideaI have no idea"},{"start":383.34,"end":411.014,"text":"就是說因為這個不確定涉及到行政跟立法的這個部分所以變成他沒有辦法透過行政部門這一邊獨立去解決這個問題所以這個變成說可能就必須有看是不是透過進一步的協商還是什麼就必須行政立法再度的來處理這個問題好 了解好 那你們兩個請回吧部長 瑪莉亞"},{"start":421.338,"end":449.255,"text":"書人好今天要講的這個題目事實上也不是你任上花生的啦這是去年甚至前年的事情那你是一個政務官嘛那你講白一點你拍拍屁股就可以走人啦對不對所以受苦受難的是我們勞動部這些事務官公務人員我覺得他們是很辛苦的他們的士氣蠻低迷的"},{"start":450.575,"end":462.001,"text":"那你大家又有人搶 你有在搶嗎 我不知道啦搶那個公園是我們部裡面最重要的資產"},{"start":463.359,"end":490.186,"text":"沒有 公務人員是我們的資產 國家的財產我們都要疼惜啦這個是不管藍執政 不管綠執政這些公務人員他們都是要幹到退休的那我是一直覺得我們公務人員好不容易拆車拆到要死然後課高考 課特考 課薪水那麼低來這邊天天被罵 我是覺得那是我不太想幹啦"},{"start":491.906,"end":518.813,"text":"真的真的所以我們要跟他們加油啦跟他們打氣那因為以前真的是有點脫序那現在你來就更嚴格所以一磚一瓦都管得那麼嚴我是覺得有時候也要檢討啦也是要幫他練的啦一陣緊一陣鬆另外也是一樣啦所以我建議就是好好的來"},{"start":522.053,"end":534.96,"text":"檢討檢討啦我看你從上任到現在都非常戰爭津津啊我有問你好幾次啊你說你都用那個聖上仙術在維持我不曉得真的還假的"},{"start":536.496,"end":562.777,"text":"好我問一個我們現在救援基金現在是現在有多少錢現在目前有400多億那這一次這個美國川普這樣亂搞那我們已經很多有中部的一些譬如說紡織的或者是做螺絲的他們已經被美國的客戶已經通知說先不要出貨三個月"},{"start":564.128,"end":568.012,"text":"我現在問說要不要出路三個,大家就不理我不慷慨了嘛馬上出問題啊"},{"start":572.946,"end":592.923,"text":"那換無薪假也罷 領半薪也罷你們現在是打算怎麼去幫助這些勞工 這個最實際喔跟蘇緯說明喔 確實在這個禮拜裡面陸陸續續其實聽到一些來自包括美國的進口商跟我們台灣的製造商或出口商開始有一些在討論訂單上面的變動的狀況 這是有的"},{"start":596.306,"end":623.317,"text":"那當然下一步會看這一些台灣的廠商他有些他可能會調動他的產線有些他可能會做他自己內部上面相關排班的調整可是我要說的是說我們是很不希望是走到比方說會是解雇的這個狀況或者是大量解雇那我們當然也會我們會在相關的機制上面做一些把關我們也不希望企業來濫用像這個減班休息的做法"},{"start":625.092,"end":638.191,"text":"俗稱減班休息有人會俗稱無薪假可是他並不是真的無薪因為台灣的減班休息其實都是要還是要給最低工資的那是要給最低工資但是如果最低工資這一段你們有沒有補沒有"},{"start":641.454,"end":664.421,"text":"如果有準備休息的狀況的話我們其實有相對應包括像充電才出發或者是有一些包括像雇用安定的措施來可能可以來去協助這個勞工他在收入上面的做法我們其實過去是有包括疫情的時候金融海嘯的時候是有這樣的經驗那我們也把過去的這些措施這些措施都還在"},{"start":664.901,"end":686.13,"text":"但我們也在規劃一個更針對目前關稅因應關稅的版本來去更清楚的因地制宜或者是來去設定現有的情境下面怎麼樣包括它的適用範圍甚至會不會在某些部分需要支持力度的加碼其實我們都在目前在做一個這樣子量身訂做的設定"},{"start":688.211,"end":696.259,"text":"好 那我們百姓 共和國一般民眾的情感每次都在問你這次要怎麼退回來我是認為 像這個是"},{"start":705.031,"end":731.448,"text":"再出發的這個是乍臨的 再下一張你要去追這些錢回來勢必要有有憑有據嘛你不能說你部長想說要跟人家賺錢 你是平常要跟人家賺錢所以一定要 換你判斷說他有安若端有福利或是說有總保私囊這個一定要判決你才能辦法去要嘛 對不對 部長是不是這樣我們如果要跟個人"},{"start":732.669,"end":761.258,"text":"包括甚至包括決策者要去做相關的追究或追討的話當然要有法律上面的依據他如果沒有把錢放在自己的口袋裡面你會說他是圖利啊怎麼樣不然的話你要去最後要去把他追錢窩香沒有那麼簡單耶所以就是看說還是要看有沒有法律上面的依據如果有這個法律上的依據的話那當然該怎麼做就要怎麼做啊"},{"start":762.708,"end":769.001,"text":"可是前提是所以這是為什麼我們說我們會來配合檢調或司法的結果來做相關的追究"},{"start":770.758,"end":797.383,"text":"像陳基普講的說要等到他判刑現在都起訴嘛起訴之後一審、二審、三審要不然到底判定沒有兩三年搞不定啦就我們目前看到檢調的起訴書上面的內容的話如果剛才蘇緣講的是謝前分署長的狀況的話看起來他在檢調寫的上面他已經把他不罰所得其實已經有返還了"},{"start":798.22,"end":801.37,"text":"好像有一百萬拿多少就繳出去應該不是這個數字兩萬多塊"},{"start":806.488,"end":827.973,"text":"所以那個前部長 前前部長跟鋁派界定我看他只有唱歌而已啊我看他沒有幹瑕事啊所以那個要怎麼去追尋我是覺得大家情感歸情感啦不然還是要回歸講道理跟回歸法治面啦所以法務部 那個那個 審計部叫你要從邊或者怎麼樣這個也都可以理解啦"},{"start":837.393,"end":858.855,"text":"不過汪洋普勞你往後的要更嚴格我認為你是不會你是很嚴的像現在這種脫序的行為我是當然是不對啦所以我再次的跟我們勞動部我們公務員加油然後要請部長"},{"start":864.099,"end":869.523,"text":"我會很謝謝我們公務的同仁因為他們是最辛苦的謝謝好 謝謝蘇青委員的發言謝謝部長的答案"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":750,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（11時34分）謝謝主席，我請副審計長跟副主計長。"],["李副審計長順保：召委好。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：召委好。"],["蘇委員清泉：副主計長是主計總處嘛，你是行政院的？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：副審計長是監察院的？"],["李副審計長順保：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：今天一直在說監察院、監察院，你就是監察院的，你還在推來推去。","好，從預算編列到預算執行、到決算之後，我要請問主計總處，你們的角色是什麼？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，基本上從預算籌編開始，我們就會請各部會提需求，我們就會進行彙整，再進行區分。如果是屬於公共建設、科技等等，會有一些先期計畫的審議機關，像國發會、科技部等等。最後我們就把彙整的結果經過會議審查以後，提報到行政院院會；院會通過以後就送立法院，大概我們的角色是這樣。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以你們是先前，譬如說，明（115）年的預算，你們現在就開始在張羅，你們就開始編，你們是負責前半段，之後交各個部會怎麼編列，然後再送去行政院，院會通過了再送過來立法院？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：立法院審查，像這一次有一些凍結的、有一些核刪的，你們再報回去之後，請問你們是怎麼分配？主計長說沒辦法分配，凍結的部分他沒有辦法分配，到底這是怎麼一回事？你要講清楚，因為沒有多少人聽得懂啦！"],["陳副主計長慧娟：就是說，基本上到了立法院，刪減的數字是多少，是要依照立法院三讀審議的結果去計算。這一次主要是因為審議的結果裡面有636億沒有指定哪一個科目，對主計總處來講，我們不能幫立法院決定那個科目，基本上是這個問題。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以就卡在那裡？因為我在高鐵上跟教育部長同車，他也一直在complain說統刪下來的錢到底他分到多少，是不是這樣？所以他也不曉得要怎麼做，行政院不曉得要怎麼做，是不是這樣？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對，目前就是有一個636億不明確是要刪減什麼項目。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，現在覆議也沒有過，那你們現在怎麼辦？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：現在基本上就是說……"],["蘇委員清泉：這跟剛剛部長講的是一樣的問題！有的刪、有的凍，再來就是刪掉的六百多億要怎麼分？勞動部要分到多少、教育部要分到多少？是不是這樣？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，就是因為這個636億的不確定性，就連動到後面要採取什麼措施變成一種困難！"],["蘇委員清泉：所以現在已經4月了，你們現在怎麼辦？就繼續卡在那裡？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：就因為六百多億一直還是不確定。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以呢？身為召委，我要知道你們再來要怎麼做，我一直叫勞動部、叫衛福部趕快來申請解凍。但是解凍是另外一個，這個六百多億是統刪的，是不是？要講清楚喔！"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對，就是九百多億裡面有明確項目的扣除以後，還有636億是不明確的。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以是刪的嘛？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是刪減的部分。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以就卡在這裡，不知道要怎麼辦？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，審計部的角色是什麼？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，大院審議中央政府總預算案通過了，總統如果公布之後，各部會就會分配每一個月的預算，分配之後審計部的主要職掌之一就是會監督預算執行，從會計年度一開始到結束，包括平常會計報告的審核、分配預算的查核，到實際派員就地去財務收支抽查，另外一部分是專案調查。"],["蘇委員清泉：114年的預算覆議也沒過，現在總統府也公布了。"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以你是114年按月在攤，每個月都有在追蹤考核，是這樣嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：每個月都有審。"],["蘇委員清泉：還是等到115年都弄完了，事後才在……"],["李副審計長順保：沒有、沒有，我們的審核包括書面審核，書面審核就是平常透過資訊系統，跟機關送過來的會計報告，我們也會線上去看它的交易憑證，這個是平常就在做的。然後也要例行派員到各部會去就地抽查，這個是從年頭到年尾都這樣做。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，剛剛主計處說有六百多億未定，那你們怎麼弄？"],["李副審計長順保：我們根據他所確定的，就是部會確定的，我們根據那個數字。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以主計處說的那個未定的六百多億，你們現在要怎麼攤？你們還沒有idea？就是I have no idea，這樣嗎？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：因為這個不確定涉及到行政跟立法的部分，所以變成行政部門沒有辦法獨立去解決這個問題，所以這個變成必須看是不是透過進一步的協商還是什麼，就是必須行政、立法再度來處理這個問題。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，了解。你們兩個請回吧！","部長，換你了。"],["洪部長申翰：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：今天要講的這個題目事實上也不是你任上發生的，這是去年，甚至前年的事情了。你是一個政務官，講白一點，你拍拍屁股就可以走人了，對不對？所以受苦受難的是勞動部這些事務官、公務人員，我覺得他們是很辛苦，他們的士氣滿低迷的，你有沒有在整他們，我不知道啦！"],["洪部長申翰：沒有啦！公務員是我們部裡面最重要的資產。"],["蘇委員清泉：公務人員是我們的資產，國家的財產，我們都要疼惜啦！"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個不管藍執政、不管綠執政，公務人員他們都是要幹到退休的！"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：我一直覺得公務人員讀書讀到死去活來，好不容易考高考、考特考通過，可是薪水又那麼低，天天來這邊被罵，我覺得要是我，我也不太想幹啦！真的！所以我們也要給他們加油，給他們打氣。"],["洪部長申翰：是，當然。"],["蘇委員清泉：以前真的有點脫序，現在你來就更嚴格，所以你們連一磚一瓦都管得那麼嚴，我覺得有時候要檢討啦！有時候要放寬一點啦！一陣緊、一陣鬆！立法院也是一樣啦！所以我建議就是好好的檢討、檢討啦！我看你從上任到現在都非常戰戰兢兢，我問你好幾次，你說都用腎上腺素在維持，我不曉得真的還假的。就安基金現在有多少錢？"],["洪部長申翰：目前有四百多億。"],["蘇委員清泉：這一次美國川普這樣亂搞，中部已經有一些紡織業者或螺絲業者被美國客戶通知先不要出貨三個月！如果不出貨三個月，大家就沒工作了，馬上出問題。放無薪假也罷、領半薪也罷，你們現在打算怎麼幫助這些勞工？這個是最實際的問題！"],["洪部長申翰：跟蘇委員說明，確實在這一個禮拜陸陸續續聽到一些，包括美國的進口商跟臺灣的製造商或出口商，開始有一些在討論訂單上面變動的狀況，這是有的。當然，下一步就看這些臺灣廠商的因應，可能會調動產線，有些可能做內部排班的調整。當然，我們很不希望走上解僱或大量解僱的狀況，所以我們會在相關機制上做把關，也不希望企業濫用減班休息。減班休息有人會俗稱無薪假，可是並不是真的無薪，因為臺灣的減班休息還是要給最低工資，但是如果……"],["蘇委員清泉：最低工資這一塊，你們有沒有補助？"],["洪部長申翰：如果減班休息的話，我們其實有相對應措施，像充電再出發或僱用安定措施可以協助勞工有收入，過去在疫情、金融海嘯時有這樣的經驗，這些措施都還在，但我們也在規劃針對目前關稅的因應版本，做更清楚的因地制宜，或設定在現有的情境下，包括它的適用範圍，甚至會不會在某些部分需要支持力度的加碼？其實我們目前都在做這樣子量身訂做的設定。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，站在百姓跟一般民眾的情感，所以我們一直在問你這些錢要怎麼追回來？我認為你要去追這些錢回來，勢必要有憑有據，不能說部長想要跟人家追錢，但是憑什麼要跟人家追錢？所以一定要法院判定有圖利或中飽私囊，這個一定要有判決才能辦法去要，部長，是不是這樣？"],["洪部長申翰：是，我們如果要跟個人，甚至包括對決策者做相關的追究或追討，當然要有法律的依據。"],["蘇委員清泉：如果他沒有把錢放在自己的口袋，除非判定有圖利，不然要向他追錢，我想沒有那麼簡單。"],["洪部長申翰：所以還是要看有沒有法律依據，如果有法律依據，當然該怎麼做就要怎麼做，這就是為什麼我們會配合檢調或司法的結果來做相關的追究。"],["蘇委員清泉：像審計部講的要等到判刑，但現在才起訴，起訴後有一審、二審、三審，之後才有判定，沒有兩、三年搞不定。"],["洪部長申翰：跟蘇委員報告，就我們目前看到檢調起訴書的內容，如果剛剛蘇委員講的是謝前分署長的狀況，檢調寫他已經返還不法所得了。"],["蘇委員清泉：好像繳100萬出去了？"],["洪部長申翰：應該不是這個數字，是兩萬多塊。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以前前部長的情況就更難界定，我看他只有唱歌而已，也沒有幹啥事，所以要怎麼去追錢？我覺得情感歸情感，不過還是要回歸道理跟法治面，所以審計部要求重編等等，這個也都可以理解。亡羊補牢起見，往後你們要更嚴格，我認為你是很嚴格的，像勞動部過去那種脫序的行為當然不對，所以我要再次講勞動部的公務人員們加油！也請部長要好好地幹，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：我也很謝謝我們的公務同仁，因為他們是最辛苦的，謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員的發言，謝謝部長答詢。"],["主席（蘇委員清泉）：好，現在處理臨時提案，總共有四案，請一併宣讀。","一、","依決算法第26條、第26-1條及第27條分別規定：「審計長於中央政府總決算送達後三個月內完成其審核，編造最終審定數額表，並提出審核報告於立法院。」、「審計長應於會計年度中將政府之半年結算報告，於政府提出後一個月內完成其查核，並提出查核報告於立法院。」、「立法院對審核報告中有關預算之執行、政策之實施及特別事件之審核、救濟等事項，予以審議。立法院審議時，審計長應答覆質詢，並提供資料；對原編造決算之機關，於必要時，亦得通知其列席備詢，或提供資料。」又審計法第34條第3項規定：「立法院、監察院或兩院中之各委員會，審議前項報告，如有諮詢或需要有關審核之資料，審計長應答復或提供之。」爰請審計部於2周內提供就業安定基金109年度至113年度相關審核之資料（含審計部及原編造決算之機關間之往來函文及附件）與查核報告及審核報告之內容及出處。","提案人：陳菁徽　　蘇清泉　　邱鎮軍","二、","案由：","有鑑於行政院近日函送立法院之工會法修正草案內容中，對基層廠場人員新增籌組工會之規範略以，乃包含需辦理稅籍登記，以及專責會計人員等條件，此舉實讓基層勞工有感在勞工團結權之行使徒增阻礙。更甚，該草案內容更與國際勞工組織ILO第87號公約所保障勞動者成立與加入組織之結社自由，明訂應採自由主義不得有事前之許可程序所嚴重相悖，並有助長企業弱化特定工會實力之不當勞動行為的效果，更容易衍生雇主經營權凌駕勞工團結權之虞。復以，監察院人權委員會日前甫對於廠場工廠在工會需以獨立會計之要件，更有認定與ILO第98號公約對團結權保障未盡相符。是以，考量該工會法修法之舉，所對我國勞工權利之侵損，以及對我國在自願加入「公民與政治權利國際公約」及「經濟社會文化權利國際公約」兩公約並受後續評鑑之不利益，並徒增兩公約規範勞工對於何種方式進行工會的組織，僅受關係組織規章之限制，特決議要求勞動部需於一個月內啟動辦理完善之社會對話作業，並於各縣市辦理修法意見公聽會並蒐集各基層勞工心聲，俟後並於半年內向本委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　蘇清泉　　廖偉翔　　邱鎮軍　　王育敏　　盧縣一","三、","案由：","根據勞動及職業安全衛生研究所的研究，彈性化育嬰假制度可以滿足受僱者照顧孩子之需求並降低未來重返職場的困難，避免受僱者因無收入而面臨經濟壓力，且有助於提高男性受僱者育嬰假的使用率。勞動部去年試辦彈性育嬰假，據統計共89家公私企業參與、182人提出申請，申請天數以3天為主，試辦成效不佳，有待檢討。去年係以勞動部發函給有意願參與的公私部門單位方式進行辦理，然而，民間企業或有經營上的難處而難以一蹴可幾，相比之下，公部門應作為推動友善育兒政策的表率，比起只是發函詢問意願，勞動部應積極向行政院、人事總處提出要求，進一步將公部門單位均先行納入試辦計畫，才能由點成線、由線成面於所有公部門試辦彈性育嬰假制度，爰提案要求勞動部於三個月內協調有關單位，完成公部門機構納入試辦計畫之規劃。","提案人：陳菁徽　　蘇清泉　　邱鎮軍","四、","案由：就業安定基金的設置目的在於推動國人職業訓練、就業輔導及失業救助。然而，勞動部及所屬機關長期濫用該基金，嚴重偏離設立宗旨。根據審計部於今年3月21日向勞動部發函指出，109年至112年間，就業安定基金有高達72,246,254元的支出不符基金設置目的及用途，包括製作勞動形象影片、經營臉書粉絲團、辦理喬遷活動、發放春節紅包袋及三節禮品等，均屬不當支出，審計部認定應予收回。然而，勞動部至今未主動啟動內部行政調查與懲處程序，亦未將案件移送檢察機關偵辦，嚴重影響政府財政紀律與社會信任。爰此，提案要求勞動部應立即啟動行政調查，查明相關責任人，並依據《公務員懲戒法》將涉案人員移送懲戒法庭處理，此外，應主動將案件及相關物證移送檢察機關偵辦，以確保相關違法行為能受到適當法律處置。勞動部應於一個月內完成上述事項，並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會報告辦理情形，以確保就業安定基金真正用於保障國人就業權益，落實基金設置宗旨。","提案人：陳菁徽　　邱鎮軍　　蘇清泉"],["主席：好，我們一件一件處理。","請問第1案，行政單位有沒有意見？"],["李副審計長順保：報告主席跟各位委員，第1案跟審計部有關。倒數第四行，建議文字修正：「爰請審計長」建議改成「爰請審計部」；「於兩週內提供就業安定基金109年度至113年度相關審核之資料」，「之資料」建議用法定用語，就是「相關審核通知」。至於括號裡面的文字建議都劃掉，因為審核通知的附件都有包括這些資料。「與查核報告」留著；「及審核報告之內容及出處」，像113年度審核報告還沒有編，所以兩個禮拜內是不可能提供的，建議把「及審核報告之內容及出處」文字刪除，謝謝。"],["主席：陳委員，你有意見嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：因為審計部剛剛講到括號裡面的內容全部都已經有包含了，所以也沒有刪的必要吧？"],["李副審計長順保：文字上我們是這樣建議，尊重委員最後的決定。"],["陳委員菁徽：我覺得可以保留括號裡面的內容，其他的照您的建議修改，好嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：我們是建議這樣調整，整個審核通知就包括附件及內容，都會附在裡面。沒關係，我們配合處理。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。"],["主席：你後面改的地方再唸一遍。副審計長，你再唸一遍。"],["李副審計長順保：「爰請審計部於2週內提供就業安定基金109年度至113年度相關審核通知（含審計部及……)」，建議「原編造決算之機關」不寫，就是「(……及相關機關間之往來函文及附件）與查核報告」。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，這樣可以，謝謝。"],["主席：第1案修改後通過。","第2案，針對第2案明天會有公聽會。"],["王司長厚偉：跟委員報告，有關廠場工會的修法，我們是依據憲法法庭判決第7號，兩年內要在母法上明定。我們參考憲法法庭的判決，也認為應合理限制廠場工會成立，要求一定要有人事跟會計獨立，避免勞勞相爭，從而產生很多會務假，如此可能造成更多的勞方衝突，所以我們認為這樣的規範是合理的。當初我們在訂的時候也有過對話，並邀請勞資雙方都來表達意見，大致的方向也都朝向把它移到母法這個方向，所以這個修正條文已經送到委員會來了。針對這個提案，能不能只留下蒐集基層勞工的意見？我覺得可以，我們再來蒐集一下勞工的意見。","至於社會對話，把勞資雙方再找來討論，由於資方對工會的成立有他們本身的一些看法，也因為有會務假的問題，若再把勞資雙方找來對話，對於修法來說其實比較沒有需要。所以可不可以留下最後那句「蒐集各基層勞工心聲」，然後前面那一段「啟動辦理完善之社會對話作業，並於各縣市辦理修法意見公聽會」就不要放？"],["陳委員菁徽：蘇召委、邱鎮軍委員以及我都有接到一些團體的陳情，他們是希望跟你們對話，不是跟資方對話，所以……"],["王司長厚偉：社會各界就會有……"],["陳委員菁徽：對，應該是說他們還是希望可以表達他們的聲音。"],["洪部長申翰：跟陳委員說明，如果要辦理社會對話作業的話，那麼所謂社會對話就會有資方。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得都可以，因為我們只要邀請來，讓大家有意見可以表達。當然我們沒有預設立場，聽一下大家的意見，綜合起來再做決定。"],["洪部長申翰：可不可以讓我們來蒐集勞資雙方意見？"],["邱委員鎮軍：你要怎麼蒐集？"],["洪部長申翰：我們用各種方式蒐集到之後，因為我想跟委員……"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，公聽會也是一種嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：因為明天就會有公聽會？"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，明天不是就要開了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：明天就有公聽會，其實就會來嘛！"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，那個就可以把它當作是……"],["洪部長申翰：如果明天辦完公聽會就是一種蒐集的話，這個我們也OK。"],["王委員育敏：其實這個議題我覺得比較是你們跟工會的溝通，到底有沒有真的進行相關的溝通？因為當時知道委員會要排這個案子的時候，的確有很多地方的工會團體是很緊張的。因為他們覺得長期以來，如果說它有各地分會，大概都是由總公司那邊的工會代表，但是它代表不代表他們地方的一些聲音跟意見，所以這個議題我相信你們也理解。這件事情其實不用那麼地匆忙，你們那時候想要很快在委員會過，但是這件事情有那麼急嗎？我個人覺得沒有到那麼急，你其實可以再多蒐集大家的意見。基本上工會的成立是希望可以達到多元聲音的表達，而不是制約成一種聲音，或者是說這一個工會可能因為資方比較是去跟它溝通，然後就會變成跟資方的立場靠近，但是其他比較遠的、在地的那些員工的心聲反而下情都沒有上達，我想部長你自己過去跟勞工團體有一些接觸，重點是在這邊，要怎麼避免防止這樣的情況發生。"],["洪部長申翰：跟王委員說明，第一個，確實這一題在工會界是有不太一樣的看法，就是正反都有，正反的意見其實我們也都有掌握。就時效上面的話，確實有一些時間的壓力，因為這個修法是來自於憲法法庭的判決，憲法法庭是判兩年內那個辦法會失效，所以有一點時間壓力的點是來自於憲法法庭。它應該是5月17日會失效，所以我們在時間點上，希望能夠在這段時間趕快來處理相關問題的原因是這樣子。當然也很謝謝委員會明天辦相關的公聽會，讓大家的意見可以並陳，我的意思是說，其實各界的意見都清楚，我們也可以看明天公聽會的狀況，可是我們自己覺得時間上不宜再多拖，因為多拖的狀況下，可能會讓這個部分變成沒有相關的規範，然後衍生後續的一些問題。主要時間點的原因是在這件事情上面，因為憲法法庭是判5月17日原本的辦法就會失效。"],["王委員育敏：所以你們應該要更提前作業，為什麼那麼匆忙，壓縮到現在然後才急急忙忙？"],["洪部長申翰：是，我們現在就是希望能在那之前完成，因為這個修法本身，其實就是修工會法六之一的單條。"],["王委員育敏：但我覺得有共識比較重要，不是急著那兩年嘛！你修不好，引發更大的問題跟反彈……"],["洪部長申翰：但是如果出現了空窗，那個空窗可能衍生的問題會更不好處理，因為等於相關規範消失了。"],["王委員育敏：應該還好。"],["洪部長申翰：王委員，其實這件事情需要有一定的規範，當然內容怎樣我們可以討論，我是說內容可以討論，可是時間點上，我們真的認為有時間上的緊迫性！"],["主席：好，今天這個臨時提案你要怎麼改？"],["洪部長申翰：可不可以改成「特決議要求勞動部在一個月內蒐集各勞資」？或者不要寫「勞資」，就是「蒐集各界勞工意見」？然後後面「半年內向本委員會提交書面報告」應該沒有問題，好不好？"],["主席：再唸一遍好了。"],["洪部長申翰：就是最後……"],["王委員育敏：半年內，我覺得這應該不用趕嘛！你剛剛那麼急著修法，現在是半年內都沒有異議？"],["洪部長申翰：對，但這是原本的文字。"],["王委員育敏：如果按照剛剛……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你剛剛不是說到5月17日，你們有時間壓力？現在又半年後才提交書面報告？"],["洪部長申翰：半年是上面寫的，最後一句話改成一個月我們也可以啊！就是最後一句話改成「一個月內向本委員會提交書面報告」。"],["王委員育敏：一個月？"],["陳委員菁徽：如果我們衛環委員會辦一場，你們也辦一場，這樣子你們做得到嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以辦，可以。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，那就各辦一場。"],["洪部長申翰：衛環委員會明天辦，對不對？那我們也可以辦一場。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。"],["主席：你們是勞動部自己辦就對了？"],["洪部長申翰：對，可以。"],["主席：陳委員，照他這樣修正可以嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：可以，就一人辦一場。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：第2案照修改後通過。","第3案。"],["黃司長維琛：第3案的部分在這邊跟委員報告。陳委員、蘇委員、邱委員的提案是希望所有的公部門都來做彈性育嬰留停的試辦計畫，這邊是讓所有公部門都要先納進來試辦，在3個月裡面要來協調有關單位，並且重點是說要完成。但是這個部分涉及到其他的單位，還有軍公教，因為育嬰留職停薪有涉及到軍公教，都適用這個法令，所以要能夠完成這件事情，可能其他單位會有我們現在想不到的問題或者是會遇到困難。所以是不是建議在3個月內「協調」改成「會商」有關單位，然後把「完成」改成「研議」？就是有4個字，把「協調」改成「會商」有關單位，然後是「研議公部門機構納入試辦計畫之規劃」。"],["陳委員菁徽：可以，不過這是部長一直想做的事情嘛！所以我們……"],["洪部長申翰：是，所以陳委員這個提案的概念我是贊成的，只是就時間點上，能不能夠在3個月內完成協調全臺灣這麼多公部門？這件事情我們覺得不一定可以，可是我們想做的其實不只是公部門，我們甚至想往私部門去。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，那就照你們的建議修改，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：我請問一下部長，育嬰假一般是半年，那現在……"],["洪部長申翰：育嬰留停。"],["主席：留停？"],["洪部長申翰：對，半年。"],["主席：你這個好像要改成可以單天請？一天一天請？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["主席：這樣不就要搞好幾年？"],["洪部長申翰：不是。現在大家倡議的概念total還是6個月，不過可能部分的留停變成可以單天請，但還是在原本6個月的部分。"],["主席：還是在183天內就對了？"],["洪部長申翰：對，不是再外加的，概念是這樣子。"],["主席：第3案修正後通過。","第4案。"],["周處長志信：主席以及各位委員。關於第4案的部分，因為審計部的審查報告也要求本部追究相關責任，同時在提案裡面也有提到移送懲戒法庭。按照懲戒法規定，本部對於薦任九職等以下才有辦法直接移送懲戒法院，只要是簡任以上的，按照程序我們要先移送給監察院，監察院調查認為有違法失職以後提起彈劾案，移送給懲戒法庭。目前監察院已經立案調查了，剛剛部長在答詢的時候也有提到。","至於司法偵辦的部分，本部在第一時間，新北地檢署及臺北地檢署在偵辦的時候，本部已經積極配合偵辦，相關的證卷資料都已經提供給新北檢以及臺北地檢。新北檢最近針對北分署謝宜容的部分已經提起公訴，所以要求本部把案件跟相關卷證再移給檢察官來偵辦，這部分在實務上我們可能會有困難。所以這個提案我們建議可以修正為「爰此，提案要求勞動部應依審計部審查報告追究相關責任，並積極配合監察院及司法機關偵辦，以確保相關違法行為能受到適當法律處置。勞動部應於兩個月內完成上述事項，並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會報告辦理情形，以確保就業安定基金真正用於保障國人就業權益，落實基金設置宗旨」，以上。"],["主席：把你建議修改的跟提案委員說明，休息2分鐘。","休息（12時8分）","繼續開會（12時10分）"],["主席：好，到底是……"],["在場人員：第4案……"],["洪部長申翰：第4案我們的修正意見，剛剛有跟陳菁徽委員說明。"],["主席：要不要唸一下？"],["洪部長申翰：我們再唸一次，好不好？"],["主席：好，再唸一次。"],["洪部長申翰：「爰此，提案要求勞動部應依審計部審查報告追究相關責任，並積極配合監察院及司法機關偵辦」，然後懲戒法跟懲戒法庭的部分刪掉，接上「以確保相關違法行為能受到適當法律處置。勞動部應於兩個月內完成上述事項」。"],["主席：照修正後通過。","臨時提案全部處理完畢。我們中午不休息，要吃便當的就吃便當。","請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","盧縣一","洪孟楷","王正旭","黃秀芳","陳瑩","劉建國","廖先翔","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱若華","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00005"}}}