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\"start\": 1019.167, \"end\": 1019.348, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"坤\", \"start\": 1019.348, \"end\": 1019.588, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"旗\", \"start\": 1019.588, \"end\": 1019.769, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1019.769, \"end\": 1019.909, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 1019.909, \"end\": 1019.929, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,482 --> 00:00:16,030\n好謝謝主席那有請法務部部長政部長還有教育部張亮萬堅次長謝謝好次長部長午安\n\n2\n00:00:27,813 --> 00:00:57,035\n好我還是想要談一下言論自由因為我看到邱垂正主委談的是配合統戰那梁文傑副主委談的是國家忠誠那我認為台灣一向對於軍公教我們有非常好的照顧跟相關的就業的保障所以我們對於軍公教他們在國家忠誠度的要求這件事情我想請教育部先表達一下你對教育人員在國家忠誠這件事情上的態度\n\n3\n00:00:57,395 --> 00:01:11,976\n我們當然這個本來按照這個教師法跟相關的法令就是對於培養學生的國家意識或者是國家的這個認同都是非常重要的一個場所在學校所以老師正扮演這樣角色\n\n4\n00:01:12,996 --> 00:01:39,235\n那如果老師扮演這樣的角色我們當然對於老師上所謂敵對國家的官方媒體我的定義是這樣敵對國家的官方媒體發表配合統戰的言論表達出他對於國家認同的不忠誠然後再加上我們收到民間的檢舉信然後你們有相關的行政調查並且發函給地方縣市政府去做相關的調查跟處理以上我的邏輯是對的嗎是的並不妥\n\n5\n00:01:41,036 --> 00:01:54,536\n所以並無不妥嘛而且我們目前我們現在不管台北市政府處理的態度我認為教育部要有自己的態度我想要問一下次長目前在我們的教育人員任用條例第三條裡面就有談到所謂的忠誠義務對吧\n\n6\n00:01:56,058 --> 00:02:13,064\n好那在教師法的第四章裡面呢根據所謂停聘解聘不續聘的要件有談到老師在言論上的法律底線是好這個是我們辦公室研究後的結果你認為這件事情如果我們拿出來談我們希望不要針對歐老師單一事件我們認為在國家認同上\n\n7\n00:02:14,865 --> 00:02:26,513\n這麼多年發展下來每一個人有自己的選擇跟態度但是對於目前台灣的中央政府已經定調為中國是境外敵對勢力的情況下教育部未來在這塊如何補強\n\n8\n00:02:27,814 --> 00:02:56,648\n對我們將來當然會來加強各種這個有關怎麼樣去實踐教師專業另外呢就是在言論的自由上如何去界定這個界線要有一個比較明確的地方譬如說剛才我提到就是說當然歐老師在中共的官方也是所謂現在國安單位定義為境外敵對勢力的官媒裡面去發表他的言論他的主張基本上\n\n9\n00:02:57,108 --> 00:03:22,897\n只要不違反我們的國安相關的法令他有他的言論自由但是內容妥當與否就是這個是問題就是說他引起台灣社會的高度很多不認同那產生的批評我覺得這個也是歐老師他必須去面對的不是說如果有外界有批評或者說有檢舉政府去調查就是去干涉言論自由我想這是兩碼事啦言論自由是被保障的\n\n10\n00:03:23,297 --> 00:03:41,392\n但是他的言行是否違反專業倫理是否跟教育基本法的精神這個教育中立以及教師法相關的規定是否符合我覺得這個是必須要去言行內容是自由被保障的但是他妥以不妥他是要被檢視的\n\n11\n00:03:42,233 --> 00:04:08,721\n好謝謝次長提到所謂專業倫理事實上在我們台灣的教育現場一直都沒有所謂的教育專業倫理準則我們有非常多的法不管是教師法教育人員任用條例保障老師們的權利同時也規範老師的義務但是對於專業倫理這件事情一直在台灣的教育現場是缺乏的但如果回到這一次國家認同還有所謂的配合統戰這件事情或是未來會有更多我認為歐老師絕對不會是最後一位老師\n\n12\n00:04:09,781 --> 00:04:31,581\n那我們如何站在保護國安然後奠定國家認同的程度上我覺得我們未來有機會進一步討論教師專業倫理準則這件事情我想聽一下次長是不是可以簡單回覆一下我們尊重立法院的意見事實上目前就是根據這個剛才我提到教師自主自律我們在報告裡面提到說中華民國教師專業標準指引\n\n13\n00:04:33,303 --> 00:04:50,344\n還有全國教師會裡面有訂定的全國教師的自律公約都有提到行政中立專業責任的問題譬如說在專業表現的指標上他不得利用職權來教導或要求學生支持特定的政黨或候選人也不能支持特定的意識形態那這個\n\n14\n00:04:51,905 --> 00:05:15,339\n這個是不是不得違背這個倫理的行為我想這個呢就是一個比較像倫理性的規範所以剛才我一直強調歐老師有他的言論自由但是他的言論的內容引起批評他必須去面對是否適合所以後來北一女他們也要求學校的教職員不得接受中共官媒的採訪\n\n15\n00:05:15,959 --> 00:05:29,006\n可是我認為其實是整個對國家認同國家忠誠的問題還有配合統戰這件事情可能在一般的教職員現場現行的教職人員的認知可能都有普遍的差異我想在後續我們要再加強那至於教師倫理準則我們還是希望有機會跟你們討論\n\n16\n00:05:32,208 --> 00:06:00,611\n雖然剛剛次長已經講了有所謂教育人員專業指引的部分包含中立的部分但我認為普遍在現場的認知絕對有很大落差好嗎好這個部分我們就先講我們會繼續往下追蹤下一個部長兩位都還請留步我們今天要來司法委員會裡面談教育這件事情因為跟法務部有關我們在看到創意私房的案子裡面呢辦公室注意到了有一個行為人的身份非常的特別我來跟兩位說明\n\n17\n00:06:02,172 --> 00:06:13,380\n這個人他下一張這位老師根據檢方的起訴書有一位誠信男子從民國104年起在台北市多家補習班任教並且從108年起開始在某一個國小擔任帶課老師\n\n18\n00:06:17,483 --> 00:06:44,739\n他在110年8月到112年7月之間多次邀約國小學生爬山爬完山之後去他的住處浴室洗澡趁機偷拍少女洗澡的影片那當然後續就做了很多數位犯罪所以才會在這一次的調查當中我們在看到判決書裡面有相關的案例這個是真實的案例不是我捏造的我要強調一次他是現行學校的代課老師\n\n19\n00:06:46,417 --> 00:07:08,973\n也就是說他在被查獲這個事情之前沒有人知道他在對孩子們下手做這件事情等到創意私房案爆發了檢察官發現有這個加害人那檢察官就要開始去調查對嗎調查到起訴通常平均值會多少會多久假設我抓六個月好不好\n\n20\n00:07:09,693 --> 00:07:36,232\n部長假設我住在六個月從開始調查到獲得起訴假設會有六個月這六個月的狀況裡面這個人會不會繼續在學校教書這部分因為我們會通報要依據兒少性剝削條部長你要確定喔你確定你們法務部會通報你們只會好就是下一張沒錯來下一張部長你講對了你們會通報社政系統\n\n21\n00:07:37,092 --> 00:07:59,816\n社政系統根據兒少法49條根據兒少性剝削防務部的檢調單位這邊確實要通報就是一旦查析但是這個通報的系統是為了啟動被害人保護機制什麼叫被害人保護如果他需要相關的心理輔導社會資源的救助或者是他的原生家庭出現任何的困難問題導致於等等等等\n\n22\n00:08:00,196 --> 00:08:19,142\n孩子因為這個事情所受到的傷害我們在社政系統就會啟動保護機制我們的通報的原因是為了這個我們並沒有回頭去影響檢察官正在進行的調查但同步要回到教育部來在此時此刻社政系統知道了但教育部毫不知情教育系統毫不知情\n\n23\n00:08:19,902 --> 00:08:35,949\n這個是現行的困境我要講的是這一位誠信老師假設在過往的法律當中有一件事情很重要我們要針對現行的教職人員要定期的進六個系統去查對不對\n\n24\n00:08:37,049 --> 00:08:51,288\n但是過往就有案例有很多縣市政府很多學校並不會定期的去查所以我剛剛為什麼問法務部長在這個調查的過程當中假設是這六個假設是平均只是六個月好了知悉到起訴假設我就抓最短六個月\n\n25\n00:08:52,574 --> 00:09:18,074\n我們給檢察官好的工作時間辦案時間去調查這六個月當中學校系統毫不知情教育部毫不知情我不會說是法務部的錯我不會說是檢察系統的錯我會說過去沒有這個形態的犯罪導致於過往不知道原來法務系統要跟教育部系統做這樣的嫁接對嗎因為它是新形態的犯罪好那回過頭來看我們可以做什麼事情下一段我們現在想要積極的建議而且我認為兩個部會必須要主動開啟討論\n\n26\n00:09:21,477 --> 00:09:29,545\n我們希望司法系統一旦查析或者開始起訴而上性剝削條例的行為人要如何通報教育系統讓教育系統去做勾結開啟行政調查但是我並沒有要在這個調查的檢察官調查期間讓這個人失業我沒有要這樣\n\n27\n00:09:42,717 --> 00:09:58,921\n但是我認為要讓這個人積極的離開小孩什麼叫離開小孩我知道教育系統現在最常做的是把這個人就派去教育局他就碰不到小孩了對不對但是他依然要配合司法調查對嗎或者是呢把他放在學校裡面的行政職但這邊我打一個問號因為行政職還是會接觸到小孩\n\n28\n00:10:02,802 --> 00:10:30,896\n可是一旦教育系統知道了這件事情必須要開啟行政調查但現在可怕的就是檢調單位沒有法源依據沒有義務要去跟教育系統通報這件事情你們確實跟社政做了通報而且一直以來都做得很好但教育端怎麼怎麼辦以我剛剛那個陳老師的案例他就繼續在學校當代課老師他繼續用邀請學生去爬山然後去他家洗澡然後偷拍照繼續做這個事情我們怎麼辦\n\n29\n00:10:32,279 --> 00:10:56,766\n我想那個陳委員就是你提的那部分那個檢查系統他是依照這個幼照法是不是有兒少權法兒少權法49條他只會通報社政對對那我們本來認為說社政其實跟這個教育行政就是都同樣政府應該是不會的不會的市長不會的那如果說是法令的缺漏造成這個部分有缺漏那當然我們也會啟動相關的包括教師法\n\n30\n00:10:57,947 --> 00:11:11,802\n針對全國教師還有幼兒幼照法學前教育的部分我們如果有必要修法我們去研議來把它這個能夠同步勾結讓這個犯罪嫌疑人在調查階段遠離孩子\n\n31\n00:11:12,483 --> 00:11:39,131\n市長這樣好不好我認為修法真的太慢了主席不好意思我超過一點點時間因為這個問題現在真的很難解我認為修法太慢了我剛剛的建議是我們可不可以快速建立一個不要增加檢察官辦案壓力也不要增加檢察官辦案複雜度的一個通報系統讓檢察官可以第一時間一旦查獲我認為是一旦查獲就要除了告知前一個頭影片除了告知社政系統之外我們要同步告知教育系統\n\n32\n00:11:40,271 --> 00:11:56,098\n那教育部這邊也要趕快出現一個窗口或是趕快設計一個平台在行政調查的部分就已經可以讓學校是掌握了那教育部你們透過國教署的系統發給地方教育局處地方教育局處就不能推託他就要趕快發給學校趕快讓這個人離開現場這個來來回回的公文搞不好都要超過一個月\n\n33\n00:12:02,441 --> 00:12:10,170\n那如果要再去修法我都覺得太難了但是我的認知是其實做行政的行為就可以了這是我的認知不知道部長跟次長你們覺得呢\n\n34\n00:12:12,931 --> 00:12:37,754\n各位包括那個案件偵查中我們是沒辦法去通報就是加害人的這一部分可是沒有我們回到前一張設計我們那個是通報那個被害人對但是加害人因為那個案件還沒有確認是他這個行為的一個確認所以等一下所以部長的意思要等到判刑要到司法起訴到起訴所以你認為好下一張所以你認為起訴就可以\n\n35\n00:12:38,274 --> 00:12:53,153\n起訴這個部分再來研議看看有沒有辦法去通不用研議啦那個部長我要求求你拜託因為現在兒少網路性剝削的犯罪樣態已經遠離我們這個世代的人越來越遠了我不知道現場在座最年輕的是誰\n\n36\n00:12:54,349 --> 00:13:12,421\n我現在自己都已經快要50歲了可是我的小孩在網路上他就算他不是犯罪的人他也不是去加害人但是他也不是被害人但是孩子們現在在網路上所接觸到的各式各樣的拐騙行為就很可能讓他們淪為是那個被害人但學校系統毫無知情這件事情我們真的還要再研議嗎\n\n37\n00:13:13,542 --> 00:13:39,939\n就是嚴厲那個聯繫的機制那個我們贊同是委員的意見嘛在起訴的話我們就可以通報那我們嚴厲看如何再做跟交易單位還有怎麼做我們有沒有機會在一個月內我們辦公室可以邀請法務部跟交易部一起來開會討論這件事情一個月內我們辦公室會積極的拜託你們跟你們一起討論等一下你的幕僚要看起來跟你切切私隱一下這個法規的主管機關是衛福部\n\n38\n00:13:41,615 --> 00:13:44,263\n不是不是不是等一下主席我真的對不起你但是你讓我講完\n\n39\n00:13:46,127 --> 00:14:13,204\n兒少法49條或者是兒少性剝削站在保護被害人的機制他當然是會服補可是你不要忘了我剛剛講的是那個老師他就是不適任老師可是全世界只有那個檢察官知道他是那個不適任老師因為他正在查獲的階段他甚至都還不到起訴可能只有他身邊的人知道說這個人是老師然後他對小孩做了這個事情還有只有那個檢察官知道還有陪同那個檢察官一起辦案的警察知道沒有人知道\n\n40\n00:14:14,105 --> 00:14:27,014\n我要講的是關鍵是再回到前一張我真的不應該這麼激動但是我要說的是在前一張這個陳老師他就是在那個判決書裡面我們看到是這個樣態他的犯罪期間長達多久110年到112年連續兩年的期間那如果要等到所謂的\n\n41\n00:14:35,393 --> 00:15:02,247\n你們要在研議或是你們要法源依據沒有辦法做任何行政措施我們要放任小孩置於這樣的狼爪風險之中嗎我要講的是沒有人知道然後檢察官他不能打一通電話去給任何縣市教育局處說我手上有一個案例你們要注意他不能做這個事情所以你們要讓這些有良心的檢察官不知道他下一步該怎麼辦嗎這個是偵查不公開的一個問題我知道所以他不能做這個事情所以我們現在有保護被害人那一步機制已經啟動了\n\n42\n00:15:03,567 --> 00:15:16,761\n我現在是部長次長你一定懂我的意思我們要讓那樣不適任的老師他是徹徹底底的不適任吧而且我要講更可怕的是那當然法務部這邊他是因為那個有分查不分查那我們在行政通報上\n\n43\n00:15:19,404 --> 00:15:46,121\n我們在做可以做非處分的一些行政調度來講那這個部分我們跟法務部會後來看看有沒有辦法有一個通報機制我們不是確認說這個犯罪嫌疑人是否犯罪但事實上有關不適任教師他的判定不是以他犯罪與否而是他行為與否如果他行為上已經有造成被害人當然在通報上我們會請檢察官看有沒有什麼方式能夠\n\n44\n00:15:46,741 --> 00:16:05,743\n我不要再假裝工作給檢察官我認為我們真的認真坐下來討論我們辦公室很願意跟兩個部會坐下來討論站在保護而上的立場我當然知道衛福部那邊已經有做事了可是在教育系統我要再次強調這件事情從頭到尾教育系統都不會知道甚至回到他起訴後他被起訴囉\n\n45\n00:16:07,521 --> 00:16:22,991\n還沒判刑確定以前你們教育系統也不會知道我再講一次還沒有被判刑確定以前教育系統也不會知道我再回到我手上有一張紙主席我真的對不起你但是讓我講完我們現在所有現行的老師\n\n46\n00:16:24,472 --> 00:16:53,346\n我們現在所有現行的老師他們如果要被查在系統裡面他有沒有不適任的問題有非常多系統可以查可是呢一個是剛聘任要剛進去的人我會被調查陳培宇要進去某個地方interviewinterview完確定我可以進去要查那我要進去的時候我可能沒有問題另外一個是要做定期調查現在很多縣市政府是沒有好好在做定期調查的所以我陳培宇被請進去教書之後我可能中間的犯罪都不會有任何人知道只要那個縣市政府疏於定期調查\n\n47\n00:16:55,157 --> 00:16:59,929\n好嗎?好,謝謝主席,不好意思,謝謝兩位,謝謝我們下一位請富坤旗委員發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6482\t16030\t好 謝謝主席 那有請法務部部長 政部長 還有教育部張亮萬堅次長 謝謝好 次長 部長午安\n27813\t57035\t好 我還是想要談一下言論自由因為我看到邱垂正主委談的是配合統戰那梁文傑副主委談的是國家忠誠那我認為台灣一向對於軍公教我們有非常好的照顧跟相關的就業的保障所以我們對於軍公教他們在國家忠誠度的要求這件事情我想請教育部先表達一下你對教育人員在國家忠誠這件事情上的態度\n57395\t71976\t我們當然這個本來按照這個教師法跟相關的法令就是對於培養學生的國家意識或者是國家的這個認同都是非常重要的一個場所在學校所以老師正扮演這樣角色\n72996\t99235\t那如果老師扮演這樣的角色我們當然對於老師上所謂敵對國家的官方媒體我的定義是這樣敵對國家的官方媒體發表配合統戰的言論表達出他對於國家認同的不忠誠然後再加上我們收到民間的檢舉信然後你們有相關的行政調查並且發函給地方縣市政府去做相關的調查跟處理以上我的邏輯是對的嗎是的並不妥\n101036\t114536\t所以並無不妥嘛而且我們目前我們現在不管台北市政府處理的態度我認為教育部要有自己的態度我想要問一下次長目前在我們的教育人員任用條例第三條裡面就有談到所謂的忠誠義務對吧\n116058\t133064\t好 那在教師法的第四章裡面呢根據所謂停聘解聘不續聘的要件有談到老師在言論上的法律底線是好 這個是我們辦公室研究後的結果你認為這件事情如果我們拿出來談我們希望不要針對歐老師單一事件我們認為在國家認同上\n134865\t146513\t這麼多年發展下來每一個人有自己的選擇跟態度但是對於目前台灣的中央政府已經定調為中國是境外敵對勢力的情況下教育部未來在這塊如何補強\n147814\t176648\t對我們將來當然會來加強各種這個有關怎麼樣去實踐教師專業另外呢就是在言論的自由上如何去界定這個界線要有一個比較明確的地方譬如說剛才我提到就是說當然歐老師在中共的官方也是所謂現在國安單位定義為境外敵對勢力的官媒裡面去發表他的言論他的主張基本上\n177108\t202897\t只要不違反我們的國安相關的法令他有他的言論自由但是內容妥當與否就是這個是問題就是說他引起台灣社會的高度很多不認同那產生的批評我覺得這個也是歐老師他必須去面對的不是說如果有外界有批評或者說有檢舉政府去調查就是去干涉言論自由我想這是兩碼事啦言論自由是被保障的\n203297\t221392\t但是他的言行是否違反專業倫理是否跟教育基本法的精神這個教育中立以及教師法相關的規定是否符合我覺得這個是必須要去言行內容是自由被保障的但是他妥以不妥他是要被檢視的\n222233\t248721\t好 謝謝次長提到所謂專業倫理事實上在我們台灣的教育現場一直都沒有所謂的教育專業倫理準則我們有非常多的法不管是教師法 教育人員任用條例保障老師們的權利同時也規範老師的義務但是對於專業倫理這件事情一直在台灣的教育現場是缺乏的但如果回到這一次國家認同還有所謂的配合統戰這件事情或是未來會有更多我認為歐老師絕對不會是最後一位老師\n249781\t271581\t那我們如何站在保護國安然後奠定國家認同的程度上我覺得我們未來有機會進一步討論教師專業倫理準則這件事情我想聽一下次長是不是可以簡單回覆一下我們尊重立法院的意見事實上目前就是根據這個剛才我提到教師自主自律我們在報告裡面提到說中華民國教師專業標準指引\n273303\t290344\t還有全國教師會裡面有訂定的全國教師的自律公約都有提到行政中立專業責任的問題譬如說在專業表現的指標上他不得利用職權來教導或要求學生支持特定的政黨或候選人也不能支持特定的意識形態那這個\n291905\t315339\t這個是不是不得違背這個倫理的行為我想這個呢就是一個比較像倫理性的規範所以剛才我一直強調歐老師有他的言論自由但是他的言論的內容引起批評他必須去面對是否適合所以後來北一女他們也要求學校的教職員不得接受中共官媒的採訪\n315959\t329006\t可是我認為其實是整個對國家認同國家忠誠的問題還有配合統戰這件事情可能在一般的教職員現場現行的教職人員的認知可能都有普遍的差異我想在後續我們要再加強那至於教師倫理準則我們還是希望有機會跟你們討論\n332208\t360611\t雖然剛剛次長已經講了有所謂教育人員專業指引的部分包含中立的部分但我認為普遍在現場的認知絕對有很大落差好嗎好這個部分我們就先講我們會繼續往下追蹤下一個部長兩位都還請留步我們今天要來司法委員會裡面談教育這件事情因為跟法務部有關我們在看到創意私房的案子裡面呢辦公室注意到了有一個行為人的身份非常的特別我來跟兩位說明\n362172\t373380\t這個人他下一張這位老師根據檢方的起訴書有一位誠信男子從民國104年起在台北市多家補習班任教並且從108年起開始在某一個國小擔任帶課老師\n377483\t404739\t他在110年8月到112年7月之間多次邀約國小學生爬山爬完山之後去他的住處浴室洗澡趁機偷拍少女洗澡的影片那當然後續就做了很多數位犯罪所以才會在這一次的調查當中我們在看到判決書裡面有相關的案例這個是真實的案例不是我捏造的我要強調一次他是現行學校的代課老師\n406417\t428973\t也就是說他在被查獲這個事情之前沒有人知道他在對孩子們下手做這件事情等到創意私房案爆發了檢察官發現有這個加害人那檢察官就要開始去調查對嗎調查到起訴通常平均值會多少會多久假設我抓六個月好不好\n429693\t456232\t部長假設我住在六個月從開始調查到獲得起訴假設會有六個月這六個月的狀況裡面這個人會不會繼續在學校教書這部分因為我們會通報要依據兒少性剝削條部長你要確定喔你確定你們法務部會通報你們只會好就是下一張沒錯來下一張部長你講對了你們會通報社政系統\n457092\t479816\t社政系統根據兒少法49條根據兒少性剝削防務部的檢調單位這邊確實要通報就是一旦查析但是這個通報的系統是為了啟動被害人保護機制什麼叫被害人保護如果他需要相關的心理輔導社會資源的救助或者是他的原生家庭出現任何的困難問題導致於等等等等\n480196\t499142\t孩子因為這個事情所受到的傷害我們在社政系統就會啟動保護機制我們的通報的原因是為了這個我們並沒有回頭去影響檢察官正在進行的調查但同步要回到教育部來在此時此刻社政系統知道了但教育部毫不知情教育系統毫不知情\n499902\t515949\t這個是現行的困境我要講的是這一位誠信老師假設在過往的法律當中有一件事情很重要我們要針對現行的教職人員要定期的進六個系統去查對不對\n517049\t531288\t但是過往就有案例有很多縣市政府很多學校並不會定期的去查所以我剛剛為什麼問法務部長在這個調查的過程當中假設是這六個假設是平均只是六個月好了知悉到起訴假設我就抓最短六個月\n532574\t558074\t我們給檢察官好的工作時間辦案時間去調查這六個月當中學校系統毫不知情教育部毫不知情我不會說是法務部的錯我不會說是檢察系統的錯我會說過去沒有這個形態的犯罪導致於過往不知道原來法務系統要跟教育部系統做這樣的嫁接 對嗎因為它是新形態的犯罪好 那回過頭來看我們可以做什麼事情下一段我們現在想要積極的建議而且我認為兩個部會必須要主動開啟討論\n561477\t569545\t我們希望司法系統一旦查析或者開始起訴而上性剝削條例的行為人要如何通報教育系統讓教育系統去做勾結開啟行政調查但是我並沒有要在這個調查的檢察官調查期間讓這個人失業我沒有要這樣\n582717\t598921\t但是我認為要讓這個人積極的離開小孩什麼叫離開小孩我知道教育系統現在最常做的是把這個人就派去教育局他就碰不到小孩了對不對但是他依然要配合司法調查對嗎或者是呢把他放在學校裡面的行政職但這邊我打一個問號因為行政職還是會接觸到小孩\n602802\t630896\t可是一旦教育系統知道了這件事情必須要開啟行政調查但現在可怕的就是檢調單位沒有法源依據沒有義務要去跟教育系統通報這件事情你們確實跟社政做了通報而且一直以來都做得很好但教育端怎麼怎麼辦以我剛剛那個陳老師的案例他就繼續在學校當代課老師他繼續用邀請學生去爬山然後去他家洗澡然後偷拍照繼續做這個事情我們怎麼辦\n632279\t656766\t我想那個陳委員就是你提的那部分那個檢查系統他是依照這個幼照法是不是有兒少權法 兒少權法49條他只會通報社政對對那我們本來認為說社政其實跟這個教育行政就是都同樣政府應該是不會的不會的市長不會的那如果說是法令的缺漏造成這個部分有缺漏那當然我們也會啟動相關的包括教師法\n657947\t671802\t針對全國教師還有幼兒幼照法學前教育的部分我們如果有必要修法我們去研議來把它這個能夠同步勾結讓這個犯罪嫌疑人在調查階段遠離孩子\n672483\t699131\t市長這樣好不好我認為修法真的太慢了主席不好意思我超過一點點時間因為這個問題現在真的很難解我認為修法太慢了我剛剛的建議是我們可不可以快速建立一個不要增加檢察官辦案壓力也不要增加檢察官辦案複雜度的一個通報系統讓檢察官可以第一時間一旦查獲我認為是一旦查獲就要除了告知前一個頭影片除了告知社政系統之外我們要同步告知教育系統\n700271\t716098\t那教育部這邊也要趕快出現一個窗口或是趕快設計一個平台在行政調查的部分就已經可以讓學校是掌握了那教育部你們透過國教署的系統發給地方教育局處地方教育局處就不能推託他就要趕快發給學校趕快讓這個人離開現場這個來來回回的公文搞不好都要超過一個月\n722441\t730170\t那如果要再去修法我都覺得太難了但是我的認知是其實做行政的行為就可以了這是我的認知不知道部長跟次長你們覺得呢\n732931\t757754\t各位包括那個案件偵查中我們是沒辦法去通報就是加害人的這一部分可是沒有 我們回到前一張設計我們那個是通報那個被害人對 但是加害人因為那個案件還沒有確認是他這個行為的一個確認所以等一下 所以部長的意思要等到判刑要到司法 起訴到起訴 所以你認為好 下一張 所以你認為起訴就可以\n758274\t773153\t起訴這個部分 再來研議看看有沒有辦法去通不用研議啦 那個部長我要求求你 拜託因為現在兒少網路性剝削的犯罪樣態已經遠離我們這個世代的人越來越遠了我不知道現場在座最年輕的是誰\n774349\t792421\t我現在自己都已經快要50歲了可是我的小孩在網路上他就算他不是犯罪的人他也不是去加害人但是他也不是被害人但是孩子們現在在網路上所接觸到的各式各樣的拐騙行為就很可能讓他們淪為是那個被害人但學校系統毫無知情這件事情我們真的還要再研議嗎\n793542\t819939\t就是嚴厲那個聯繫的機制那個我們贊同是委員的意見嘛在起訴的話我們就可以通報那我們嚴厲看如何再做跟交易單位還有怎麼做我們有沒有機會在一個月內我們辦公室可以邀請法務部跟交易部一起來開會討論這件事情一個月內我們辦公室會積極的拜託你們跟你們一起討論等一下你的幕僚要看起來跟你切切私隱一下這個法規的主管機關是衛福部\n821615\t824263\t不是不是不是等一下主席我真的對不起你但是你讓我講完\n826127\t853204\t兒少法49條或者是兒少性剝削站在保護被害人的機制他當然是會服補可是你不要忘了我剛剛講的是那個老師他就是不適任老師可是全世界只有那個檢察官知道他是那個不適任老師因為他正在查獲的階段他甚至都還不到起訴可能只有他身邊的人知道說這個人是老師然後他對小孩做了這個事情還有只有那個檢察官知道還有陪同那個檢察官一起辦案的警察知道沒有人知道\n854105\t867014\t我要講的是關鍵是再回到前一張我真的不應該這麼激動但是我要說的是在前一張這個陳老師他就是在那個判決書裡面我們看到是這個樣態他的犯罪期間長達多久110年到112年連續兩年的期間那如果要等到所謂的\n875393\t902247\t你們要在研議或是你們要法源依據沒有辦法做任何行政措施我們要放任小孩置於這樣的狼爪風險之中嗎我要講的是沒有人知道然後檢察官他不能打一通電話去給任何縣市教育局處說我手上有一個案例你們要注意他不能做這個事情所以你們要讓這些有良心的檢察官不知道他下一步該怎麼辦嗎這個是偵查不公開的一個問題我知道所以他不能做這個事情所以我們現在有保護被害人那一步機制已經啟動了\n903567\t916761\t我現在是部長次長你一定懂我的意思我們要讓那樣不適任的老師他是徹徹底底的不適任吧而且我要講更可怕的是那當然法務部這邊他是因為那個有分查不分查那我們在行政通報上\n919404\t946121\t我們在做可以做非處分的一些行政調度來講那這個部分我們跟法務部會後來看看有沒有辦法有一個通報機制我們不是確認說這個犯罪嫌疑人是否犯罪但事實上有關不適任教師他的判定不是以他犯罪與否而是他行為與否如果他行為上已經有造成被害人當然在通報上我們會請檢察官看有沒有什麼方式能夠\n946741\t965743\t我不要再假裝工作給檢察官我認為我們真的認真坐下來討論我們辦公室很願意跟兩個部會坐下來討論站在保護而上的立場我當然知道衛福部那邊已經有做事了可是在教育系統我要再次強調這件事情從頭到尾教育系統都不會知道甚至回到他起訴後他被起訴囉\n967521\t982991\t還沒判刑確定以前你們教育系統也不會知道我再講一次還沒有被判刑確定以前教育系統也不會知道我再回到我手上有一張紙主席我真的對不起你但是讓我講完我們現在所有現行的老師\n984472\t1013346\t我們現在所有現行的老師他們如果要被查在系統裡面他有沒有不適任的問題有非常多系統可以查可是呢一個是剛聘任要剛進去的人我會被調查陳培宇要進去某個地方interviewinterview完確定我可以進去要查那我要進去的時候我可能沒有問題另外一個是要做定期調查現在很多縣市政府是沒有好好在做定期調查的所以我陳培宇被請進去教書之後我可能中間的犯罪都不會有任何人知道只要那個縣市政府疏於定期調查\n1015157\t1019929\t好嗎?好,謝謝主席,不好意思,謝謝兩位,謝謝我們下一位請富坤旗委員發言\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 那有請法務部部長 政部長 還有教育部張亮萬堅次長 謝謝好 次長 部長午安\n好 我還是想要談一下言論自由因為我看到邱垂正主委談的是配合統戰那梁文傑副主委談的是國家忠誠那我認為台灣一向對於軍公教我們有非常好的照顧跟相關的就業的保障所以我們對於軍公教他們在國家忠誠度的要求這件事情我想請教育部先表達一下你對教育人員在國家忠誠這件事情上的態度\n我們當然這個本來按照這個教師法跟相關的法令就是對於培養學生的國家意識或者是國家的這個認同都是非常重要的一個場所在學校所以老師正扮演這樣角色\n那如果老師扮演這樣的角色我們當然對於老師上所謂敵對國家的官方媒體我的定義是這樣敵對國家的官方媒體發表配合統戰的言論表達出他對於國家認同的不忠誠然後再加上我們收到民間的檢舉信然後你們有相關的行政調查並且發函給地方縣市政府去做相關的調查跟處理以上我的邏輯是對的嗎是的並不妥\n所以並無不妥嘛而且我們目前我們現在不管台北市政府處理的態度我認為教育部要有自己的態度我想要問一下次長目前在我們的教育人員任用條例第三條裡面就有談到所謂的忠誠義務對吧\n好 那在教師法的第四章裡面呢根據所謂停聘解聘不續聘的要件有談到老師在言論上的法律底線是好 這個是我們辦公室研究後的結果你認為這件事情如果我們拿出來談我們希望不要針對歐老師單一事件我們認為在國家認同上\n這麼多年發展下來每一個人有自己的選擇跟態度但是對於目前台灣的中央政府已經定調為中國是境外敵對勢力的情況下教育部未來在這塊如何補強\n對我們將來當然會來加強各種這個有關怎麼樣去實踐教師專業另外呢就是在言論的自由上如何去界定這個界線要有一個比較明確的地方譬如說剛才我提到就是說當然歐老師在中共的官方也是所謂現在國安單位定義為境外敵對勢力的官媒裡面去發表他的言論他的主張基本上\n只要不違反我們的國安相關的法令他有他的言論自由但是內容妥當與否就是這個是問題就是說他引起台灣社會的高度很多不認同那產生的批評我覺得這個也是歐老師他必須去面對的不是說如果有外界有批評或者說有檢舉政府去調查就是去干涉言論自由我想這是兩碼事啦言論自由是被保障的\n但是他的言行是否違反專業倫理是否跟教育基本法的精神這個教育中立以及教師法相關的規定是否符合我覺得這個是必須要去言行內容是自由被保障的但是他妥以不妥他是要被檢視的\n好 謝謝次長提到所謂專業倫理事實上在我們台灣的教育現場一直都沒有所謂的教育專業倫理準則我們有非常多的法不管是教師法 教育人員任用條例保障老師們的權利同時也規範老師的義務但是對於專業倫理這件事情一直在台灣的教育現場是缺乏的但如果回到這一次國家認同還有所謂的配合統戰這件事情或是未來會有更多我認為歐老師絕對不會是最後一位老師\n那我們如何站在保護國安然後奠定國家認同的程度上我覺得我們未來有機會進一步討論教師專業倫理準則這件事情我想聽一下次長是不是可以簡單回覆一下我們尊重立法院的意見事實上目前就是根據這個剛才我提到教師自主自律我們在報告裡面提到說中華民國教師專業標準指引\n還有全國教師會裡面有訂定的全國教師的自律公約都有提到行政中立專業責任的問題譬如說在專業表現的指標上他不得利用職權來教導或要求學生支持特定的政黨或候選人也不能支持特定的意識形態那這個\n這個是不是不得違背這個倫理的行為我想這個呢就是一個比較像倫理性的規範所以剛才我一直強調歐老師有他的言論自由但是他的言論的內容引起批評他必須去面對是否適合所以後來北一女他們也要求學校的教職員不得接受中共官媒的採訪\n可是我認為其實是整個對國家認同國家忠誠的問題還有配合統戰這件事情可能在一般的教職員現場現行的教職人員的認知可能都有普遍的差異我想在後續我們要再加強那至於教師倫理準則我們還是希望有機會跟你們討論\n雖然剛剛次長已經講了有所謂教育人員專業指引的部分包含中立的部分但我認為普遍在現場的認知絕對有很大落差好嗎好這個部分我們就先講我們會繼續往下追蹤下一個部長兩位都還請留步我們今天要來司法委員會裡面談教育這件事情因為跟法務部有關我們在看到創意私房的案子裡面呢辦公室注意到了有一個行為人的身份非常的特別我來跟兩位說明\n這個人他下一張這位老師根據檢方的起訴書有一位誠信男子從民國104年起在台北市多家補習班任教並且從108年起開始在某一個國小擔任帶課老師\n他在110年8月到112年7月之間多次邀約國小學生爬山爬完山之後去他的住處浴室洗澡趁機偷拍少女洗澡的影片那當然後續就做了很多數位犯罪所以才會在這一次的調查當中我們在看到判決書裡面有相關的案例這個是真實的案例不是我捏造的我要強調一次他是現行學校的代課老師\n也就是說他在被查獲這個事情之前沒有人知道他在對孩子們下手做這件事情等到創意私房案爆發了檢察官發現有這個加害人那檢察官就要開始去調查對嗎調查到起訴通常平均值會多少會多久假設我抓六個月好不好\n部長假設我住在六個月從開始調查到獲得起訴假設會有六個月這六個月的狀況裡面這個人會不會繼續在學校教書這部分因為我們會通報要依據兒少性剝削條部長你要確定喔你確定你們法務部會通報你們只會好就是下一張沒錯來下一張部長你講對了你們會通報社政系統\n社政系統根據兒少法49條根據兒少性剝削防務部的檢調單位這邊確實要通報就是一旦查析但是這個通報的系統是為了啟動被害人保護機制什麼叫被害人保護如果他需要相關的心理輔導社會資源的救助或者是他的原生家庭出現任何的困難問題導致於等等等等\n孩子因為這個事情所受到的傷害我們在社政系統就會啟動保護機制我們的通報的原因是為了這個我們並沒有回頭去影響檢察官正在進行的調查但同步要回到教育部來在此時此刻社政系統知道了但教育部毫不知情教育系統毫不知情\n這個是現行的困境我要講的是這一位誠信老師假設在過往的法律當中有一件事情很重要我們要針對現行的教職人員要定期的進六個系統去查對不對\n但是過往就有案例有很多縣市政府很多學校並不會定期的去查所以我剛剛為什麼問法務部長在這個調查的過程當中假設是這六個假設是平均只是六個月好了知悉到起訴假設我就抓最短六個月\n我們給檢察官好的工作時間辦案時間去調查這六個月當中學校系統毫不知情教育部毫不知情我不會說是法務部的錯我不會說是檢察系統的錯我會說過去沒有這個形態的犯罪導致於過往不知道原來法務系統要跟教育部系統做這樣的嫁接 對嗎因為它是新形態的犯罪好 那回過頭來看我們可以做什麼事情下一段我們現在想要積極的建議而且我認為兩個部會必須要主動開啟討論\n我們希望司法系統一旦查析或者開始起訴而上性剝削條例的行為人要如何通報教育系統讓教育系統去做勾結開啟行政調查但是我並沒有要在這個調查的檢察官調查期間讓這個人失業我沒有要這樣\n但是我認為要讓這個人積極的離開小孩什麼叫離開小孩我知道教育系統現在最常做的是把這個人就派去教育局他就碰不到小孩了對不對但是他依然要配合司法調查對嗎或者是呢把他放在學校裡面的行政職但這邊我打一個問號因為行政職還是會接觸到小孩\n可是一旦教育系統知道了這件事情必須要開啟行政調查但現在可怕的就是檢調單位沒有法源依據沒有義務要去跟教育系統通報這件事情你們確實跟社政做了通報而且一直以來都做得很好但教育端怎麼怎麼辦以我剛剛那個陳老師的案例他就繼續在學校當代課老師他繼續用邀請學生去爬山然後去他家洗澡然後偷拍照繼續做這個事情我們怎麼辦\n我想那個陳委員就是你提的那部分那個檢查系統他是依照這個幼照法是不是有兒少權法 兒少權法49條他只會通報社政對對那我們本來認為說社政其實跟這個教育行政就是都同樣政府應該是不會的不會的市長不會的那如果說是法令的缺漏造成這個部分有缺漏那當然我們也會啟動相關的包括教師法\n針對全國教師還有幼兒幼照法學前教育的部分我們如果有必要修法我們去研議來把它這個能夠同步勾結讓這個犯罪嫌疑人在調查階段遠離孩子\n市長這樣好不好我認為修法真的太慢了主席不好意思我超過一點點時間因為這個問題現在真的很難解我認為修法太慢了我剛剛的建議是我們可不可以快速建立一個不要增加檢察官辦案壓力也不要增加檢察官辦案複雜度的一個通報系統讓檢察官可以第一時間一旦查獲我認為是一旦查獲就要除了告知前一個頭影片除了告知社政系統之外我們要同步告知教育系統\n那教育部這邊也要趕快出現一個窗口或是趕快設計一個平台在行政調查的部分就已經可以讓學校是掌握了那教育部你們透過國教署的系統發給地方教育局處地方教育局處就不能推託他就要趕快發給學校趕快讓這個人離開現場這個來來回回的公文搞不好都要超過一個月\n那如果要再去修法我都覺得太難了但是我的認知是其實做行政的行為就可以了這是我的認知不知道部長跟次長你們覺得呢\n各位包括那個案件偵查中我們是沒辦法去通報就是加害人的這一部分可是沒有 我們回到前一張設計我們那個是通報那個被害人對 但是加害人因為那個案件還沒有確認是他這個行為的一個確認所以等一下 所以部長的意思要等到判刑要到司法 起訴到起訴 所以你認為好 下一張 所以你認為起訴就可以\n起訴這個部分 再來研議看看有沒有辦法去通不用研議啦 那個部長我要求求你 拜託因為現在兒少網路性剝削的犯罪樣態已經遠離我們這個世代的人越來越遠了我不知道現場在座最年輕的是誰\n我現在自己都已經快要50歲了可是我的小孩在網路上他就算他不是犯罪的人他也不是去加害人但是他也不是被害人但是孩子們現在在網路上所接觸到的各式各樣的拐騙行為就很可能讓他們淪為是那個被害人但學校系統毫無知情這件事情我們真的還要再研議嗎\n就是嚴厲那個聯繫的機制那個我們贊同是委員的意見嘛在起訴的話我們就可以通報那我們嚴厲看如何再做跟交易單位還有怎麼做我們有沒有機會在一個月內我們辦公室可以邀請法務部跟交易部一起來開會討論這件事情一個月內我們辦公室會積極的拜託你們跟你們一起討論等一下你的幕僚要看起來跟你切切私隱一下這個法規的主管機關是衛福部\n不是不是不是等一下主席我真的對不起你但是你讓我講完\n兒少法49條或者是兒少性剝削站在保護被害人的機制他當然是會服補可是你不要忘了我剛剛講的是那個老師他就是不適任老師可是全世界只有那個檢察官知道他是那個不適任老師因為他正在查獲的階段他甚至都還不到起訴可能只有他身邊的人知道說這個人是老師然後他對小孩做了這個事情還有只有那個檢察官知道還有陪同那個檢察官一起辦案的警察知道沒有人知道\n我要講的是關鍵是再回到前一張我真的不應該這麼激動但是我要說的是在前一張這個陳老師他就是在那個判決書裡面我們看到是這個樣態他的犯罪期間長達多久110年到112年連續兩年的期間那如果要等到所謂的\n你們要在研議或是你們要法源依據沒有辦法做任何行政措施我們要放任小孩置於這樣的狼爪風險之中嗎我要講的是沒有人知道然後檢察官他不能打一通電話去給任何縣市教育局處說我手上有一個案例你們要注意他不能做這個事情所以你們要讓這些有良心的檢察官不知道他下一步該怎麼辦嗎這個是偵查不公開的一個問題我知道所以他不能做這個事情所以我們現在有保護被害人那一步機制已經啟動了\n我現在是部長次長你一定懂我的意思我們要讓那樣不適任的老師他是徹徹底底的不適任吧而且我要講更可怕的是那當然法務部這邊他是因為那個有分查不分查那我們在行政通報上\n我們在做可以做非處分的一些行政調度來講那這個部分我們跟法務部會後來看看有沒有辦法有一個通報機制我們不是確認說這個犯罪嫌疑人是否犯罪但事實上有關不適任教師他的判定不是以他犯罪與否而是他行為與否如果他行為上已經有造成被害人當然在通報上我們會請檢察官看有沒有什麼方式能夠\n我不要再假裝工作給檢察官我認為我們真的認真坐下來討論我們辦公室很願意跟兩個部會坐下來討論站在保護而上的立場我當然知道衛福部那邊已經有做事了可是在教育系統我要再次強調這件事情從頭到尾教育系統都不會知道甚至回到他起訴後他被起訴囉\n還沒判刑確定以前你們教育系統也不會知道我再講一次還沒有被判刑確定以前教育系統也不會知道我再回到我手上有一張紙主席我真的對不起你但是讓我講完我們現在所有現行的老師\n我們現在所有現行的老師他們如果要被查在系統裡面他有沒有不適任的問題有非常多系統可以查可是呢一個是剛聘任要剛進去的人我會被調查陳培宇要進去某個地方interviewinterview完確定我可以進去要查那我要進去的時候我可能沒有問題另外一個是要做定期調查現在很多縣市政府是沒有好好在做定期調查的所以我陳培宇被請進去教書之後我可能中間的犯罪都不會有任何人知道只要那個縣市政府疏於定期調查\n好嗎?好,謝謝主席,不好意思,謝謝兩位,謝謝我們下一位請富坤旗委員發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.482 --> 00:16.030\n好謝謝主席那有請法務部部長政部長還有教育部張亮萬堅次長謝謝好次長部長午安\n\n00:27.813 --> 00:57.035\n好我還是想要談一下言論自由因為我看到邱垂正主委談的是配合統戰那梁文傑副主委談的是國家忠誠那我認為台灣一向對於軍公教我們有非常好的照顧跟相關的就業的保障所以我們對於軍公教他們在國家忠誠度的要求這件事情我想請教育部先表達一下你對教育人員在國家忠誠這件事情上的態度\n\n00:57.395 --> 01:11.976\n我們當然這個本來按照這個教師法跟相關的法令就是對於培養學生的國家意識或者是國家的這個認同都是非常重要的一個場所在學校所以老師正扮演這樣角色\n\n01:12.996 --> 01:39.235\n那如果老師扮演這樣的角色我們當然對於老師上所謂敵對國家的官方媒體我的定義是這樣敵對國家的官方媒體發表配合統戰的言論表達出他對於國家認同的不忠誠然後再加上我們收到民間的檢舉信然後你們有相關的行政調查並且發函給地方縣市政府去做相關的調查跟處理以上我的邏輯是對的嗎是的並不妥\n\n01:41.036 --> 01:54.536\n所以並無不妥嘛而且我們目前我們現在不管台北市政府處理的態度我認為教育部要有自己的態度我想要問一下次長目前在我們的教育人員任用條例第三條裡面就有談到所謂的忠誠義務對吧\n\n01:56.058 --> 02:13.064\n好那在教師法的第四章裡面呢根據所謂停聘解聘不續聘的要件有談到老師在言論上的法律底線是好這個是我們辦公室研究後的結果你認為這件事情如果我們拿出來談我們希望不要針對歐老師單一事件我們認為在國家認同上\n\n02:14.865 --> 02:26.513\n這麼多年發展下來每一個人有自己的選擇跟態度但是對於目前台灣的中央政府已經定調為中國是境外敵對勢力的情況下教育部未來在這塊如何補強\n\n02:27.814 --> 02:56.648\n對我們將來當然會來加強各種這個有關怎麼樣去實踐教師專業另外呢就是在言論的自由上如何去界定這個界線要有一個比較明確的地方譬如說剛才我提到就是說當然歐老師在中共的官方也是所謂現在國安單位定義為境外敵對勢力的官媒裡面去發表他的言論他的主張基本上\n\n02:57.108 --> 03:22.897\n只要不違反我們的國安相關的法令他有他的言論自由但是內容妥當與否就是這個是問題就是說他引起台灣社會的高度很多不認同那產生的批評我覺得這個也是歐老師他必須去面對的不是說如果有外界有批評或者說有檢舉政府去調查就是去干涉言論自由我想這是兩碼事啦言論自由是被保障的\n\n03:23.297 --> 03:41.392\n但是他的言行是否違反專業倫理是否跟教育基本法的精神這個教育中立以及教師法相關的規定是否符合我覺得這個是必須要去言行內容是自由被保障的但是他妥以不妥他是要被檢視的\n\n03:42.233 --> 04:08.721\n好謝謝次長提到所謂專業倫理事實上在我們台灣的教育現場一直都沒有所謂的教育專業倫理準則我們有非常多的法不管是教師法教育人員任用條例保障老師們的權利同時也規範老師的義務但是對於專業倫理這件事情一直在台灣的教育現場是缺乏的但如果回到這一次國家認同還有所謂的配合統戰這件事情或是未來會有更多我認為歐老師絕對不會是最後一位老師\n\n04:09.781 --> 04:31.581\n那我們如何站在保護國安然後奠定國家認同的程度上我覺得我們未來有機會進一步討論教師專業倫理準則這件事情我想聽一下次長是不是可以簡單回覆一下我們尊重立法院的意見事實上目前就是根據這個剛才我提到教師自主自律我們在報告裡面提到說中華民國教師專業標準指引\n\n04:33.303 --> 04:50.344\n還有全國教師會裡面有訂定的全國教師的自律公約都有提到行政中立專業責任的問題譬如說在專業表現的指標上他不得利用職權來教導或要求學生支持特定的政黨或候選人也不能支持特定的意識形態那這個\n\n04:51.905 --> 05:15.339\n這個是不是不得違背這個倫理的行為我想這個呢就是一個比較像倫理性的規範所以剛才我一直強調歐老師有他的言論自由但是他的言論的內容引起批評他必須去面對是否適合所以後來北一女他們也要求學校的教職員不得接受中共官媒的採訪\n\n05:15.959 --> 05:29.006\n可是我認為其實是整個對國家認同國家忠誠的問題還有配合統戰這件事情可能在一般的教職員現場現行的教職人員的認知可能都有普遍的差異我想在後續我們要再加強那至於教師倫理準則我們還是希望有機會跟你們討論\n\n05:32.208 --> 06:00.611\n雖然剛剛次長已經講了有所謂教育人員專業指引的部分包含中立的部分但我認為普遍在現場的認知絕對有很大落差好嗎好這個部分我們就先講我們會繼續往下追蹤下一個部長兩位都還請留步我們今天要來司法委員會裡面談教育這件事情因為跟法務部有關我們在看到創意私房的案子裡面呢辦公室注意到了有一個行為人的身份非常的特別我來跟兩位說明\n\n06:02.172 --> 06:13.380\n這個人他下一張這位老師根據檢方的起訴書有一位誠信男子從民國104年起在台北市多家補習班任教並且從108年起開始在某一個國小擔任帶課老師\n\n06:17.483 --> 06:44.739\n他在110年8月到112年7月之間多次邀約國小學生爬山爬完山之後去他的住處浴室洗澡趁機偷拍少女洗澡的影片那當然後續就做了很多數位犯罪所以才會在這一次的調查當中我們在看到判決書裡面有相關的案例這個是真實的案例不是我捏造的我要強調一次他是現行學校的代課老師\n\n06:46.417 --> 07:08.973\n也就是說他在被查獲這個事情之前沒有人知道他在對孩子們下手做這件事情等到創意私房案爆發了檢察官發現有這個加害人那檢察官就要開始去調查對嗎調查到起訴通常平均值會多少會多久假設我抓六個月好不好\n\n07:09.693 --> 07:36.232\n部長假設我住在六個月從開始調查到獲得起訴假設會有六個月這六個月的狀況裡面這個人會不會繼續在學校教書這部分因為我們會通報要依據兒少性剝削條部長你要確定喔你確定你們法務部會通報你們只會好就是下一張沒錯來下一張部長你講對了你們會通報社政系統\n\n07:37.092 --> 07:59.816\n社政系統根據兒少法49條根據兒少性剝削防務部的檢調單位這邊確實要通報就是一旦查析但是這個通報的系統是為了啟動被害人保護機制什麼叫被害人保護如果他需要相關的心理輔導社會資源的救助或者是他的原生家庭出現任何的困難問題導致於等等等等\n\n08:00.196 --> 08:19.142\n孩子因為這個事情所受到的傷害我們在社政系統就會啟動保護機制我們的通報的原因是為了這個我們並沒有回頭去影響檢察官正在進行的調查但同步要回到教育部來在此時此刻社政系統知道了但教育部毫不知情教育系統毫不知情\n\n08:19.902 --> 08:35.949\n這個是現行的困境我要講的是這一位誠信老師假設在過往的法律當中有一件事情很重要我們要針對現行的教職人員要定期的進六個系統去查對不對\n\n08:37.049 --> 08:51.288\n但是過往就有案例有很多縣市政府很多學校並不會定期的去查所以我剛剛為什麼問法務部長在這個調查的過程當中假設是這六個假設是平均只是六個月好了知悉到起訴假設我就抓最短六個月\n\n08:52.574 --> 09:18.074\n我們給檢察官好的工作時間辦案時間去調查這六個月當中學校系統毫不知情教育部毫不知情我不會說是法務部的錯我不會說是檢察系統的錯我會說過去沒有這個形態的犯罪導致於過往不知道原來法務系統要跟教育部系統做這樣的嫁接對嗎因為它是新形態的犯罪好那回過頭來看我們可以做什麼事情下一段我們現在想要積極的建議而且我認為兩個部會必須要主動開啟討論\n\n09:21.477 --> 09:29.545\n我們希望司法系統一旦查析或者開始起訴而上性剝削條例的行為人要如何通報教育系統讓教育系統去做勾結開啟行政調查但是我並沒有要在這個調查的檢察官調查期間讓這個人失業我沒有要這樣\n\n09:42.717 --> 09:58.921\n但是我認為要讓這個人積極的離開小孩什麼叫離開小孩我知道教育系統現在最常做的是把這個人就派去教育局他就碰不到小孩了對不對但是他依然要配合司法調查對嗎或者是呢把他放在學校裡面的行政職但這邊我打一個問號因為行政職還是會接觸到小孩\n\n10:02.802 --> 10:30.896\n可是一旦教育系統知道了這件事情必須要開啟行政調查但現在可怕的就是檢調單位沒有法源依據沒有義務要去跟教育系統通報這件事情你們確實跟社政做了通報而且一直以來都做得很好但教育端怎麼怎麼辦以我剛剛那個陳老師的案例他就繼續在學校當代課老師他繼續用邀請學生去爬山然後去他家洗澡然後偷拍照繼續做這個事情我們怎麼辦\n\n10:32.279 --> 10:56.766\n我想那個陳委員就是你提的那部分那個檢查系統他是依照這個幼照法是不是有兒少權法兒少權法49條他只會通報社政對對那我們本來認為說社政其實跟這個教育行政就是都同樣政府應該是不會的不會的市長不會的那如果說是法令的缺漏造成這個部分有缺漏那當然我們也會啟動相關的包括教師法\n\n10:57.947 --> 11:11.802\n針對全國教師還有幼兒幼照法學前教育的部分我們如果有必要修法我們去研議來把它這個能夠同步勾結讓這個犯罪嫌疑人在調查階段遠離孩子\n\n11:12.483 --> 11:39.131\n市長這樣好不好我認為修法真的太慢了主席不好意思我超過一點點時間因為這個問題現在真的很難解我認為修法太慢了我剛剛的建議是我們可不可以快速建立一個不要增加檢察官辦案壓力也不要增加檢察官辦案複雜度的一個通報系統讓檢察官可以第一時間一旦查獲我認為是一旦查獲就要除了告知前一個頭影片除了告知社政系統之外我們要同步告知教育系統\n\n11:40.271 --> 11:56.098\n那教育部這邊也要趕快出現一個窗口或是趕快設計一個平台在行政調查的部分就已經可以讓學校是掌握了那教育部你們透過國教署的系統發給地方教育局處地方教育局處就不能推託他就要趕快發給學校趕快讓這個人離開現場這個來來回回的公文搞不好都要超過一個月\n\n12:02.441 --> 12:10.170\n那如果要再去修法我都覺得太難了但是我的認知是其實做行政的行為就可以了這是我的認知不知道部長跟次長你們覺得呢\n\n12:12.931 --> 12:37.754\n各位包括那個案件偵查中我們是沒辦法去通報就是加害人的這一部分可是沒有我們回到前一張設計我們那個是通報那個被害人對但是加害人因為那個案件還沒有確認是他這個行為的一個確認所以等一下所以部長的意思要等到判刑要到司法起訴到起訴所以你認為好下一張所以你認為起訴就可以\n\n12:38.274 --> 12:53.153\n起訴這個部分再來研議看看有沒有辦法去通不用研議啦那個部長我要求求你拜託因為現在兒少網路性剝削的犯罪樣態已經遠離我們這個世代的人越來越遠了我不知道現場在座最年輕的是誰\n\n12:54.349 --> 13:12.421\n我現在自己都已經快要50歲了可是我的小孩在網路上他就算他不是犯罪的人他也不是去加害人但是他也不是被害人但是孩子們現在在網路上所接觸到的各式各樣的拐騙行為就很可能讓他們淪為是那個被害人但學校系統毫無知情這件事情我們真的還要再研議嗎\n\n13:13.542 --> 13:39.939\n就是嚴厲那個聯繫的機制那個我們贊同是委員的意見嘛在起訴的話我們就可以通報那我們嚴厲看如何再做跟交易單位還有怎麼做我們有沒有機會在一個月內我們辦公室可以邀請法務部跟交易部一起來開會討論這件事情一個月內我們辦公室會積極的拜託你們跟你們一起討論等一下你的幕僚要看起來跟你切切私隱一下這個法規的主管機關是衛福部\n\n13:41.615 --> 13:44.263\n不是不是不是等一下主席我真的對不起你但是你讓我講完\n\n13:46.127 --> 14:13.204\n兒少法49條或者是兒少性剝削站在保護被害人的機制他當然是會服補可是你不要忘了我剛剛講的是那個老師他就是不適任老師可是全世界只有那個檢察官知道他是那個不適任老師因為他正在查獲的階段他甚至都還不到起訴可能只有他身邊的人知道說這個人是老師然後他對小孩做了這個事情還有只有那個檢察官知道還有陪同那個檢察官一起辦案的警察知道沒有人知道\n\n14:14.105 --> 14:27.014\n我要講的是關鍵是再回到前一張我真的不應該這麼激動但是我要說的是在前一張這個陳老師他就是在那個判決書裡面我們看到是這個樣態他的犯罪期間長達多久110年到112年連續兩年的期間那如果要等到所謂的\n\n14:35.393 --> 15:02.247\n你們要在研議或是你們要法源依據沒有辦法做任何行政措施我們要放任小孩置於這樣的狼爪風險之中嗎我要講的是沒有人知道然後檢察官他不能打一通電話去給任何縣市教育局處說我手上有一個案例你們要注意他不能做這個事情所以你們要讓這些有良心的檢察官不知道他下一步該怎麼辦嗎這個是偵查不公開的一個問題我知道所以他不能做這個事情所以我們現在有保護被害人那一步機制已經啟動了\n\n15:03.567 --> 15:16.761\n我現在是部長次長你一定懂我的意思我們要讓那樣不適任的老師他是徹徹底底的不適任吧而且我要講更可怕的是那當然法務部這邊他是因為那個有分查不分查那我們在行政通報上\n\n15:19.404 --> 15:46.121\n我們在做可以做非處分的一些行政調度來講那這個部分我們跟法務部會後來看看有沒有辦法有一個通報機制我們不是確認說這個犯罪嫌疑人是否犯罪但事實上有關不適任教師他的判定不是以他犯罪與否而是他行為與否如果他行為上已經有造成被害人當然在通報上我們會請檢察官看有沒有什麼方式能夠\n\n15:46.741 --> 16:05.743\n我不要再假裝工作給檢察官我認為我們真的認真坐下來討論我們辦公室很願意跟兩個部會坐下來討論站在保護而上的立場我當然知道衛福部那邊已經有做事了可是在教育系統我要再次強調這件事情從頭到尾教育系統都不會知道甚至回到他起訴後他被起訴囉\n\n16:07.521 --> 16:22.991\n還沒判刑確定以前你們教育系統也不會知道我再講一次還沒有被判刑確定以前教育系統也不會知道我再回到我手上有一張紙主席我真的對不起你但是讓我講完我們現在所有現行的老師\n\n16:24.472 --> 16:53.346\n我們現在所有現行的老師他們如果要被查在系統裡面他有沒有不適任的問題有非常多系統可以查可是呢一個是剛聘任要剛進去的人我會被調查陳培宇要進去某個地方interviewinterview完確定我可以進去要查那我要進去的時候我可能沒有問題另外一個是要做定期調查現在很多縣市政府是沒有好好在做定期調查的所以我陳培宇被請進去教書之後我可能中間的犯罪都不會有任何人知道只要那個縣市政府疏於定期調查\n\n16:55.157 --> 16:59.929\n好嗎?好,謝謝主席,不好意思,謝謝兩位,謝謝我們下一位請富坤旗委員發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.482,"end":16.03,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請法務部部長 政部長 還有教育部張亮萬堅次長 謝謝好 次長 部長午安"},{"start":27.813,"end":57.035,"text":"好 我還是想要談一下言論自由因為我看到邱垂正主委談的是配合統戰那梁文傑副主委談的是國家忠誠那我認為台灣一向對於軍公教我們有非常好的照顧跟相關的就業的保障所以我們對於軍公教他們在國家忠誠度的要求這件事情我想請教育部先表達一下你對教育人員在國家忠誠這件事情上的態度"},{"start":57.395,"end":71.976,"text":"我們當然這個本來按照這個教師法跟相關的法令就是對於培養學生的國家意識或者是國家的這個認同都是非常重要的一個場所在學校所以老師正扮演這樣角色"},{"start":72.996,"end":99.235,"text":"那如果老師扮演這樣的角色我們當然對於老師上所謂敵對國家的官方媒體我的定義是這樣敵對國家的官方媒體發表配合統戰的言論表達出他對於國家認同的不忠誠然後再加上我們收到民間的檢舉信然後你們有相關的行政調查並且發函給地方縣市政府去做相關的調查跟處理以上我的邏輯是對的嗎是的並不妥"},{"start":101.036,"end":114.536,"text":"所以並無不妥嘛而且我們目前我們現在不管台北市政府處理的態度我認為教育部要有自己的態度我想要問一下次長目前在我們的教育人員任用條例第三條裡面就有談到所謂的忠誠義務對吧"},{"start":116.058,"end":133.064,"text":"好 那在教師法的第四章裡面呢根據所謂停聘解聘不續聘的要件有談到老師在言論上的法律底線是好 這個是我們辦公室研究後的結果你認為這件事情如果我們拿出來談我們希望不要針對歐老師單一事件我們認為在國家認同上"},{"start":134.865,"end":146.513,"text":"這麼多年發展下來每一個人有自己的選擇跟態度但是對於目前台灣的中央政府已經定調為中國是境外敵對勢力的情況下教育部未來在這塊如何補強"},{"start":147.814,"end":176.648,"text":"對我們將來當然會來加強各種這個有關怎麼樣去實踐教師專業另外呢就是在言論的自由上如何去界定這個界線要有一個比較明確的地方譬如說剛才我提到就是說當然歐老師在中共的官方也是所謂現在國安單位定義為境外敵對勢力的官媒裡面去發表他的言論他的主張基本上"},{"start":177.108,"end":202.897,"text":"只要不違反我們的國安相關的法令他有他的言論自由但是內容妥當與否就是這個是問題就是說他引起台灣社會的高度很多不認同那產生的批評我覺得這個也是歐老師他必須去面對的不是說如果有外界有批評或者說有檢舉政府去調查就是去干涉言論自由我想這是兩碼事啦言論自由是被保障的"},{"start":203.297,"end":221.392,"text":"但是他的言行是否違反專業倫理是否跟教育基本法的精神這個教育中立以及教師法相關的規定是否符合我覺得這個是必須要去言行內容是自由被保障的但是他妥以不妥他是要被檢視的"},{"start":222.233,"end":248.721,"text":"好 謝謝次長提到所謂專業倫理事實上在我們台灣的教育現場一直都沒有所謂的教育專業倫理準則我們有非常多的法不管是教師法 教育人員任用條例保障老師們的權利同時也規範老師的義務但是對於專業倫理這件事情一直在台灣的教育現場是缺乏的但如果回到這一次國家認同還有所謂的配合統戰這件事情或是未來會有更多我認為歐老師絕對不會是最後一位老師"},{"start":249.781,"end":271.581,"text":"那我們如何站在保護國安然後奠定國家認同的程度上我覺得我們未來有機會進一步討論教師專業倫理準則這件事情我想聽一下次長是不是可以簡單回覆一下我們尊重立法院的意見事實上目前就是根據這個剛才我提到教師自主自律我們在報告裡面提到說中華民國教師專業標準指引"},{"start":273.303,"end":290.344,"text":"還有全國教師會裡面有訂定的全國教師的自律公約都有提到行政中立專業責任的問題譬如說在專業表現的指標上他不得利用職權來教導或要求學生支持特定的政黨或候選人也不能支持特定的意識形態那這個"},{"start":291.905,"end":315.339,"text":"這個是不是不得違背這個倫理的行為我想這個呢就是一個比較像倫理性的規範所以剛才我一直強調歐老師有他的言論自由但是他的言論的內容引起批評他必須去面對是否適合所以後來北一女他們也要求學校的教職員不得接受中共官媒的採訪"},{"start":315.959,"end":329.006,"text":"可是我認為其實是整個對國家認同國家忠誠的問題還有配合統戰這件事情可能在一般的教職員現場現行的教職人員的認知可能都有普遍的差異我想在後續我們要再加強那至於教師倫理準則我們還是希望有機會跟你們討論"},{"start":332.208,"end":360.611,"text":"雖然剛剛次長已經講了有所謂教育人員專業指引的部分包含中立的部分但我認為普遍在現場的認知絕對有很大落差好嗎好這個部分我們就先講我們會繼續往下追蹤下一個部長兩位都還請留步我們今天要來司法委員會裡面談教育這件事情因為跟法務部有關我們在看到創意私房的案子裡面呢辦公室注意到了有一個行為人的身份非常的特別我來跟兩位說明"},{"start":362.172,"end":373.38,"text":"這個人他下一張這位老師根據檢方的起訴書有一位誠信男子從民國104年起在台北市多家補習班任教並且從108年起開始在某一個國小擔任帶課老師"},{"start":377.483,"end":404.739,"text":"他在110年8月到112年7月之間多次邀約國小學生爬山爬完山之後去他的住處浴室洗澡趁機偷拍少女洗澡的影片那當然後續就做了很多數位犯罪所以才會在這一次的調查當中我們在看到判決書裡面有相關的案例這個是真實的案例不是我捏造的我要強調一次他是現行學校的代課老師"},{"start":406.417,"end":428.973,"text":"也就是說他在被查獲這個事情之前沒有人知道他在對孩子們下手做這件事情等到創意私房案爆發了檢察官發現有這個加害人那檢察官就要開始去調查對嗎調查到起訴通常平均值會多少會多久假設我抓六個月好不好"},{"start":429.693,"end":456.232,"text":"部長假設我住在六個月從開始調查到獲得起訴假設會有六個月這六個月的狀況裡面這個人會不會繼續在學校教書這部分因為我們會通報要依據兒少性剝削條部長你要確定喔你確定你們法務部會通報你們只會好就是下一張沒錯來下一張部長你講對了你們會通報社政系統"},{"start":457.092,"end":479.816,"text":"社政系統根據兒少法49條根據兒少性剝削防務部的檢調單位這邊確實要通報就是一旦查析但是這個通報的系統是為了啟動被害人保護機制什麼叫被害人保護如果他需要相關的心理輔導社會資源的救助或者是他的原生家庭出現任何的困難問題導致於等等等等"},{"start":480.196,"end":499.142,"text":"孩子因為這個事情所受到的傷害我們在社政系統就會啟動保護機制我們的通報的原因是為了這個我們並沒有回頭去影響檢察官正在進行的調查但同步要回到教育部來在此時此刻社政系統知道了但教育部毫不知情教育系統毫不知情"},{"start":499.902,"end":515.949,"text":"這個是現行的困境我要講的是這一位誠信老師假設在過往的法律當中有一件事情很重要我們要針對現行的教職人員要定期的進六個系統去查對不對"},{"start":517.049,"end":531.288,"text":"但是過往就有案例有很多縣市政府很多學校並不會定期的去查所以我剛剛為什麼問法務部長在這個調查的過程當中假設是這六個假設是平均只是六個月好了知悉到起訴假設我就抓最短六個月"},{"start":532.574,"end":558.074,"text":"我們給檢察官好的工作時間辦案時間去調查這六個月當中學校系統毫不知情教育部毫不知情我不會說是法務部的錯我不會說是檢察系統的錯我會說過去沒有這個形態的犯罪導致於過往不知道原來法務系統要跟教育部系統做這樣的嫁接 對嗎因為它是新形態的犯罪好 那回過頭來看我們可以做什麼事情下一段我們現在想要積極的建議而且我認為兩個部會必須要主動開啟討論"},{"start":561.477,"end":569.545,"text":"我們希望司法系統一旦查析或者開始起訴而上性剝削條例的行為人要如何通報教育系統讓教育系統去做勾結開啟行政調查但是我並沒有要在這個調查的檢察官調查期間讓這個人失業我沒有要這樣"},{"start":582.717,"end":598.921,"text":"但是我認為要讓這個人積極的離開小孩什麼叫離開小孩我知道教育系統現在最常做的是把這個人就派去教育局他就碰不到小孩了對不對但是他依然要配合司法調查對嗎或者是呢把他放在學校裡面的行政職但這邊我打一個問號因為行政職還是會接觸到小孩"},{"start":602.802,"end":630.896,"text":"可是一旦教育系統知道了這件事情必須要開啟行政調查但現在可怕的就是檢調單位沒有法源依據沒有義務要去跟教育系統通報這件事情你們確實跟社政做了通報而且一直以來都做得很好但教育端怎麼怎麼辦以我剛剛那個陳老師的案例他就繼續在學校當代課老師他繼續用邀請學生去爬山然後去他家洗澡然後偷拍照繼續做這個事情我們怎麼辦"},{"start":632.279,"end":656.766,"text":"我想那個陳委員就是你提的那部分那個檢查系統他是依照這個幼照法是不是有兒少權法 兒少權法49條他只會通報社政對對那我們本來認為說社政其實跟這個教育行政就是都同樣政府應該是不會的不會的市長不會的那如果說是法令的缺漏造成這個部分有缺漏那當然我們也會啟動相關的包括教師法"},{"start":657.947,"end":671.802,"text":"針對全國教師還有幼兒幼照法學前教育的部分我們如果有必要修法我們去研議來把它這個能夠同步勾結讓這個犯罪嫌疑人在調查階段遠離孩子"},{"start":672.483,"end":699.131,"text":"市長這樣好不好我認為修法真的太慢了主席不好意思我超過一點點時間因為這個問題現在真的很難解我認為修法太慢了我剛剛的建議是我們可不可以快速建立一個不要增加檢察官辦案壓力也不要增加檢察官辦案複雜度的一個通報系統讓檢察官可以第一時間一旦查獲我認為是一旦查獲就要除了告知前一個頭影片除了告知社政系統之外我們要同步告知教育系統"},{"start":700.271,"end":716.098,"text":"那教育部這邊也要趕快出現一個窗口或是趕快設計一個平台在行政調查的部分就已經可以讓學校是掌握了那教育部你們透過國教署的系統發給地方教育局處地方教育局處就不能推託他就要趕快發給學校趕快讓這個人離開現場這個來來回回的公文搞不好都要超過一個月"},{"start":722.441,"end":730.17,"text":"那如果要再去修法我都覺得太難了但是我的認知是其實做行政的行為就可以了這是我的認知不知道部長跟次長你們覺得呢"},{"start":732.931,"end":757.754,"text":"各位包括那個案件偵查中我們是沒辦法去通報就是加害人的這一部分可是沒有 我們回到前一張設計我們那個是通報那個被害人對 但是加害人因為那個案件還沒有確認是他這個行為的一個確認所以等一下 所以部長的意思要等到判刑要到司法 起訴到起訴 所以你認為好 下一張 所以你認為起訴就可以"},{"start":758.274,"end":773.153,"text":"起訴這個部分 再來研議看看有沒有辦法去通不用研議啦 那個部長我要求求你 拜託因為現在兒少網路性剝削的犯罪樣態已經遠離我們這個世代的人越來越遠了我不知道現場在座最年輕的是誰"},{"start":774.349,"end":792.421,"text":"我現在自己都已經快要50歲了可是我的小孩在網路上他就算他不是犯罪的人他也不是去加害人但是他也不是被害人但是孩子們現在在網路上所接觸到的各式各樣的拐騙行為就很可能讓他們淪為是那個被害人但學校系統毫無知情這件事情我們真的還要再研議嗎"},{"start":793.542,"end":819.939,"text":"就是嚴厲那個聯繫的機制那個我們贊同是委員的意見嘛在起訴的話我們就可以通報那我們嚴厲看如何再做跟交易單位還有怎麼做我們有沒有機會在一個月內我們辦公室可以邀請法務部跟交易部一起來開會討論這件事情一個月內我們辦公室會積極的拜託你們跟你們一起討論等一下你的幕僚要看起來跟你切切私隱一下這個法規的主管機關是衛福部"},{"start":821.615,"end":824.263,"text":"不是不是不是等一下主席我真的對不起你但是你讓我講完"},{"start":826.127,"end":853.204,"text":"兒少法49條或者是兒少性剝削站在保護被害人的機制他當然是會服補可是你不要忘了我剛剛講的是那個老師他就是不適任老師可是全世界只有那個檢察官知道他是那個不適任老師因為他正在查獲的階段他甚至都還不到起訴可能只有他身邊的人知道說這個人是老師然後他對小孩做了這個事情還有只有那個檢察官知道還有陪同那個檢察官一起辦案的警察知道沒有人知道"},{"start":854.105,"end":867.014,"text":"我要講的是關鍵是再回到前一張我真的不應該這麼激動但是我要說的是在前一張這個陳老師他就是在那個判決書裡面我們看到是這個樣態他的犯罪期間長達多久110年到112年連續兩年的期間那如果要等到所謂的"},{"start":875.393,"end":902.247,"text":"你們要在研議或是你們要法源依據沒有辦法做任何行政措施我們要放任小孩置於這樣的狼爪風險之中嗎我要講的是沒有人知道然後檢察官他不能打一通電話去給任何縣市教育局處說我手上有一個案例你們要注意他不能做這個事情所以你們要讓這些有良心的檢察官不知道他下一步該怎麼辦嗎這個是偵查不公開的一個問題我知道所以他不能做這個事情所以我們現在有保護被害人那一步機制已經啟動了"},{"start":903.567,"end":916.761,"text":"我現在是部長次長你一定懂我的意思我們要讓那樣不適任的老師他是徹徹底底的不適任吧而且我要講更可怕的是那當然法務部這邊他是因為那個有分查不分查那我們在行政通報上"},{"start":919.404,"end":946.121,"text":"我們在做可以做非處分的一些行政調度來講那這個部分我們跟法務部會後來看看有沒有辦法有一個通報機制我們不是確認說這個犯罪嫌疑人是否犯罪但事實上有關不適任教師他的判定不是以他犯罪與否而是他行為與否如果他行為上已經有造成被害人當然在通報上我們會請檢察官看有沒有什麼方式能夠"},{"start":946.741,"end":965.743,"text":"我不要再假裝工作給檢察官我認為我們真的認真坐下來討論我們辦公室很願意跟兩個部會坐下來討論站在保護而上的立場我當然知道衛福部那邊已經有做事了可是在教育系統我要再次強調這件事情從頭到尾教育系統都不會知道甚至回到他起訴後他被起訴囉"},{"start":967.521,"end":982.991,"text":"還沒判刑確定以前你們教育系統也不會知道我再講一次還沒有被判刑確定以前教育系統也不會知道我再回到我手上有一張紙主席我真的對不起你但是讓我講完我們現在所有現行的老師"},{"start":984.472,"end":1013.346,"text":"我們現在所有現行的老師他們如果要被查在系統裡面他有沒有不適任的問題有非常多系統可以查可是呢一個是剛聘任要剛進去的人我會被調查陳培宇要進去某個地方interviewinterview完確定我可以進去要查那我要進去的時候我可能沒有問題另外一個是要做定期調查現在很多縣市政府是沒有好好在做定期調查的所以我陳培宇被請進去教書之後我可能中間的犯罪都不會有任何人知道只要那個縣市政府疏於定期調查"},{"start":1015.157,"end":1019.929,"text":"好嗎?好,謝謝主席,不好意思,謝謝兩位,謝謝我們下一位請富坤旗委員發言"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":770,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時42分）謝謝主席，有請法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["陳委員培瑜：還有教育部張廖萬堅次長，謝謝。"],["主席：政次。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長、部長午安。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["陳委員培瑜：我還是想要談一下言論自由，因為我看到邱垂正主委談的是配合統戰，梁文傑副主委談的是國家忠誠，我認為臺灣一向對於軍公教有非常好的照顧跟相關的就業保障，所以我們對於軍公教他們在國家忠誠度的要求這件事情，我想請教育部先表達一下你對教育人員在國家忠誠這件事情上的態度。"],["張廖次長萬堅：本來按照教師法跟相關的法令，對於培養學生的國家意識或者是國家的認同，學校都是非常重要的一個場所，所以老師正扮演這樣的角色。"],["陳委員培瑜：如果老師扮演這樣的角色，我們當然對於老師上所謂敵對國家的官方媒體，我的定義是這樣，敵對國家的官方媒體發表配合統戰的言論，表達出他對於國家認同的不忠誠，再加上我們收到民間的檢舉信，然後你們有相關的行政調查，並且發函給地方縣市政府去做相關的調查跟處理，以上我的邏輯是對的嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：是的，並無不妥。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以並無不妥嘛。而且我們先不管臺北市政府處理的態度，我認為教育部要有自己的態度，我想問一下次長，目前在我們的教育人員任用條例第三條裡面就有談到所謂的忠誠義務，對吧！"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：在教師法第四章裡面，根據所謂停聘、解聘、不續聘的要件，有談到老師在言論上的法律底線，這個是我們辦公室研究後的結果，你認為這件事情如果我們拿出來談，我們希望不要針對區老師單一事件，我們認為在國家認同上這麼多年發展下來，每一個人有自己的選擇跟態度，但是對於目前臺灣的中央政府已經定調為中國是境外敵對勢力的情況下，教育部未來如何補強這一塊？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們將來當然會加強實踐教師專業，另外就是言論自由如何界定，這個界線要有一個比較明確的規範。例如我剛才提到的，區老師在中共的官方媒體，也就是現在國安單位定義為境外敵對勢力的官媒發表他的言論、主張，基本上只要不違反我們的國安相關法令，他有他的言論自由，但是內容妥當與否？這是個問題。","他引起臺灣社會高度的不認同，因而產生批評，我覺得這也是區老師必須去面對的，並不是外界有所批評或者檢舉，政府去調查就是干涉言論自由，我想這是兩碼事啦！言論自由是被保障的，但是他的言行是否違反專業倫理？是否符合教育基本法的精神和教育中立？以及是否符合教師法的相關規定？我覺得言論內容是自由、被保障的，但是妥與不妥也是要被檢視的。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝次長提到所謂的專業倫理，事實上在臺灣的教育現場，一直都沒有所謂的教育專業倫理準則，我們有非常多法，不管是教師法、教育人員任用條例，除了保障老師們的權利，同時也規範老師的義務，但是專業倫理這件事情，在臺灣的教育現場一直是缺乏的。","如果回到這一次提到的國家認同，還有所謂的配合統戰這件事情，或許未來會有更多這樣的狀況，本席認為區老師絕對不會是最後一位。站在保護國安、奠定國家認同的基礎上，本席覺得未來有機會進一步討論教師專業倫理準則這件事情。次長是不是可以簡單回復一下？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們尊重立法院的意見。事實上目前除了剛才我提到的教師自主、自律，我們在報告裡面也有提到中華民國教師專業標準指引，還有全國教師會訂定的全國教師自律公約，裡面都有提到行政中立、專業責任的問題。例如在專業表現的指標上，他不得利用職權教導或要求學生支持特定政黨或候選人，也不能支持特定的意識形態，也不得違背教師倫理的行為，我想這就是一個比較像倫理性的規範。所以剛才我一直強調，區老師有他的言論自由，但是他的言論內容引起批評時，他就必須去面對這樣的言論是否適合。"],["陳委員培瑜：本席相信不管是所謂的……"],["張廖次長萬堅：所以後來北一女也要求學校的教職員不得接受中共官媒的採訪。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是本席認為，其實這是對國家認同、國家忠誠的問題，以及配合統戰這件事情，在一般的教育現場，現行的教職員認知可能都有普遍的差異，這些後續我們也要再加強。"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：至於教師倫理準則，我們還是希望有機會和你們討論。"],["張廖次長萬堅：可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：雖然剛剛次長已經說了，有所謂的教育人員專業指引，包含中立的部分，但本席認為現場的普遍認知絕對有很大的落差，好嗎？這個部分就先說到這裡，我們之後會繼續往下追蹤。請兩位留步，我們今天要來司法委員會談教育這件事情，因為和法務部有關。在創意私房這個案子裡面，我們辦公室注意到了，有一個行為人的身分非常特別，本席先向兩位說明一下，這是一位老師。","根據檢方的起訴書，有一位陳姓男子從民國104年起，在臺北市多家補習班任教，並且從108年開始，在某一個國小擔任代課老師，他在110年8月到112年7月之間，多次邀約國小學生爬山，爬完山之後去他的住處浴室洗澡，趁機偷拍少女洗澡的影片，當然後續做了很多數位犯罪，所以才會出現在這次的調查當中。我們在判決書裡面有看到相關案例，這是真實案例，不是本席捏造的。","本席要再強調一次，他是現行的學校代課老師，也就是說，他在被查獲之前，沒有人知道他對孩子們下手做這件事情。等到創意私房案爆發了，檢察官發現這個加害人，所以檢察官就開始調查，對嗎？從調查到起訴，通常平均值是多久？部長，假設是六個月，好不好？從開始調查到起訴假設是六個月，在這六個月當中，這個人會不會繼續在學校教書？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們會通報，要依據兒少性剝削防制條例……"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，你要確定喔！你確定法務部會通報？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是由檢察官通報。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，你說對了，你們會通報社政系統。根據兒少法第四十九條，根據兒少性剝削防制條例，法務部的檢調單位一旦查悉，確實要通報社政系統，但是這個通報系統是為了啟動被害人保護機制。什麼叫被害人保護？如果他需要相關的心理輔導、社會資源救助，或者是他的原生家庭出現任何困難、問題，導致有這樣的狀況等等，孩子因為這個事情受到傷害，社政系統就會啟動保護機制，我們通報的原因是這個，而且也不會回頭影響檢察官正在進行的調查。","但我們同時也要回到教育部的部分，在此時此刻，社政系統知道了，但教育部、教育系統毫不知情，這是現行的困境。本席要說的是，過往的法律當中有一件事情很重要，針對現行的教職人員，我們要定期進六個系統去查，對不對？但是過往也出現過案例，就是很多縣市政府、學校並不會定期去查。本席剛剛為什麼問法務部長？在這個調查過程當中，假設平均值是六個月好了，從知悉到起訴，假設抓最短六個月，我們給檢察官足夠的時間調查，但是在這六個月當中，學校系統、教育部毫不知情。","本席不會說這是法務部的錯，也不會說這是檢察系統的錯，本席會說因為過去沒有這個型態的犯罪，導致過往不知道，原來法務系統也要和教育系統做這樣的介接，對嗎？因為它是新型態的犯罪。回過頭來看，我們可以做什麼事情？我們現在想要積極建議，而且本席認為兩個部會必須主動開啟討論，我們希望司法系統一旦查悉或者起訴觸犯兒少性剝削條例的行為人時，要通報教育系統，讓教育系統去做勾稽，並開啟行政調查。","在檢察官調查期間，我們並不是要讓這個人失業，但是本席認為應該要讓這個人離開小孩。什麼叫離開小孩？本席知道教育系統現在最常做的，就是把這個人派去教育局，這樣他就碰不到小孩了，對不對？但是他依然要配合司法調查，對嗎？或者是把他調成學校的行政職，但這邊本席要打一個問號，因為行政職還是會接觸到小孩。一旦教育系統知道這件事情就必須開啟行政調查，但現在可怕的是，檢調單位沒有法源依據，沒有義務向教育系統通報。","你們確實向社政系統做了通報，而且一直以來都做的很好，但教育端怎麼辦？以本席剛剛提到的陳老師案例，他就是繼續在學校當代課老師，繼續邀請學生去爬山，然後去他家洗澡、偷拍照。我們該怎麼辦？"],["張廖次長萬堅：陳委員，你提的那個部分，檢察系統是依照兒少權法第四十九條。"],["陳委員培瑜：他只會通報社政系統。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。我們本來認為社政和教育行政同樣都是政府單位，應該是要通報的。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長，不會的。"],["張廖次長萬堅：如果是因為法令缺漏，造成這個部分有缺失，我們也會啟動相關的修法，包括教師法，這是針對全國教師的部分，還有幼照法，這是學前教育的部分。如果有必要修法，我們會去研議讓它能夠同步勾稽，讓這個犯罪嫌疑人在調查階段遠離孩子。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長，這樣好不好？本席認為修法真的太慢了。主席，不好意思，本席超過一點點時間，因為現在這個問題真的很難解。本席認為修法太慢了，所以本席剛剛的建議是，我們可不可以快速建立一個不會增加檢察官辦案壓力，也不要增加檢察官辦案複雜度的通報系統，讓檢察官可以在第一時間通報，本席認為一旦查獲，除了告知社政系統之外，也要同步告知教育系統。","教育部也要趕快建立一個窗口，或是趕快設計一個平台，行政調查的部分可以讓學校掌握，由教育部透過國教署的系統發給地方教育局處，地方教育局處不能推脫，他們要趕快發給學校，趕快讓這個人離開現場，因為公文來來回回搞不好會超過一個月。如果要再修法，本席覺得太難了，就本席的認知，其實做這樣的行政行為就可以了。部長和次長，你們覺得呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：在案件偵查中，我們沒辦法通報加害人這個部分。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們那個系統是通報被害人，但是加害人這邊，因為還沒有確認他有這個行為，所以我們是在……"],["陳委員培瑜：等一下。所以部長的意思是要等到判刑，要到司法……"],["鄭部長銘謙：起訴。"],["陳委員培瑜：你認為起訴就可以通知教育系統？"],["鄭部長銘謙：起訴之後。我們再來研議看看有沒有辦法通報。"],["陳委員培瑜：不用研議啦！部長，求求你，拜託！因為現在兒少網路性剝削的犯罪樣態已經離我們這個世代的人越來越遠，在座最年輕的是誰？本席現在已經快要50歲，我們的小孩在網路上漫遊，他不是犯罪的人，不是加害人，也不是被害人，可是孩子們現在在網路上會接觸到各式各樣的拐騙行為，這樣就很可能讓他們淪為被害人，但學校系統毫不知情。這件事情真的還要再研議嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：研議那個聯繫的機制。我們贊同委員的意見，起訴之後我們就可以通報，我們也會再研議如何和教育單位做一個……"],["陳委員培瑜：有沒有機會在一個月內，由我們辦公室邀請法務部和教育部一起開會討論這件事情？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，是。"],["張廖次長萬堅：可以，沒有問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：一個月內，我們辦公室會積極的拜託你們，和你們一起討論。等一下，你的幕僚好像要和你說什麼。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個法規的主管機關是衛福部。"],["陳委員培瑜：不是的。等一下，主席，本席真的對不起你，但請你讓本席說完。兒少法第四十九條，或者是兒少性剝削防制條例，如果是保護被害人的機制，當然是衛福部主管。可是你不要忘了本席剛剛說的那個案例，他就是不適任老師，可是全世界只有那個檢察官知道他是不適任老師，因為案件還在查獲的階段，甚至還不到可以起訴，可能只有他身邊的人知道這個人是老師，他對小孩做了這個事情。還有那個檢察官知道，以及陪同檢察官一起辦案的警察知道，然後就沒有人知道。","本席要說的關鍵是，本席真的不應該這麼激動，但本席要說的是，在那個判決書裡面，我們看到的就是這樣的樣態，他的犯罪期間長達多久？從110年到112年連續兩年，如果要等你們再研議，或是你們要有法源依據，現在沒有辦法做任何行政措施，難道我們要放任小孩處於這樣的狼爪風險之中嗎？","本席要說的是沒有人知道！檢察官不能打電話通知任何的縣市教育局處，現在本席手上就有一個案例，這部分你們要注意。因為他不能做這個事情！你們要讓這些有良心的檢察官，不知道下一步該怎麼辦嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是偵查不公開的問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：本席知道，所以他不能做這個事情。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以現在保護被害人的機制已經啟動了。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長，你一定懂本席的意思。那樣的不適任老師，他是徹徹底底不適任吧？而且更可怕的是……"],["張廖次長萬堅：不適任是行政處分啦！當然，法務部是因為偵查不公開的規定。"],["陳委員培瑜：本席懂，也完全理解。"],["張廖次長萬堅：在行政通報上，我們可以做非處分的一些行政調查，你說的是這個部分。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，本席說的就是這個部分。"],["張廖次長萬堅：針對這個部分，我們和法務部會後討論有沒有辦法建立一個通報機制。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，本席完全尊重偵查不公開。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們不是去確認這個犯罪嫌疑人是否犯罪。但事實上有關不適任教師的部分，他的判定不是以他犯罪與否而定，而是以他的行為與否而定。"],["陳委員培瑜：本席知道。但是……"],["張廖次長萬堅：如果因為他的行為已經造成有被害人，就通報這件事情，我們會請檢察官協助，看看有沒有什麼方式能夠……"],["陳委員培瑜：本席希望不要再增加工作給檢察官。本席認為我們真的要認真的坐下來討論，我們辦公室很願意和兩個部會坐下來討論。"],["張廖次長萬堅：可以啦！我們來討論看看。"],["陳委員培瑜：站在保護兒少的立場，本席當然知道衛福部已經有在做，可是在教育系統，本席要再次強調，這件事情從頭到尾教育系統都不會知道，甚至是他被起訴囉……"],["張廖次長萬堅：還沒有判刑確定前都不知道。"],["陳委員培瑜：還沒有判刑確定以前，教育系統不會知道。本席要再說一次，還沒有被判刑確定以前，教育系統不會知道。本席手上有一張紙，主席，本席真的對不起你，但是請讓本席說完。現在所有現職的老師，如果要查他有沒有不適任的問題，其實有非常多系統可以查。就像剛被聘任的人會被調查，例如陳培瑜到某個地方interview，確定可以任職之後就會先調查，但剛進去的時候可能沒有問題。另外一個就是要做定期調查，但現在很多縣市政府並沒有好好做定期調查，所以陳培瑜被請進去教書之後，可能中間的犯罪行為不會被任何人知道，只要那個縣市政府疏於定期調查。謝謝主席，不好意思。謝謝兩位，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請傅崐萁委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","莊瑞雄","林倩綺","王義川","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","許宇甄","羅智強","張啓楷"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育\n部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相\n關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00004"}}}