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667.344, \"end\": 667.364, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:03,532\n謝謝主席有請國安局蔡局長謝謝主席林委員好首先先請教局長最近吵的沸沸揚揚的共諜案的問題國安局在這一次的業務報告的書面資料的第八頁裡面有提到近兩年起訴的共諜案案件數量大幅的提升\n\n2\n00:00:29,153 --> 00:00:46,273\n那先請教局長案件數量大幅的提升主要的原因是因為國安局偵防手段的精進還是國人保防的意識及你們對中共諜報工作的密度有相對的提升呢因為都有一方面是中共的滲透的力度不斷的在強化\n\n3\n00:00:47,674 --> 00:01:13,195\n那鋪天蓋地的在對台灣進行相關的滲透跟共諜的部署那第二部分是當然我們國安情報機關也歷年來也累積了一些經驗那怎麼樣來在國安情報機關軍中保防單位檢查單位跟調查單位之間的合作也越來越密切這是第二部分那第三部分也跟其他委員有在報告的是也涉及到國人或我們軍中官兵弟兄他們的保防意識越來越強化\n\n4\n00:01:14,016 --> 00:01:42,774\n那也透過檢舉的方式讓我們有更多的訓員來針對這些相關的共諜案可以啟動我們的查查的動作好那根據統計113年發生的共諜案其實共起訴的64個人中有現役軍人就有28個那不就表示有差不多三分之二的共諜是非現役軍人但問題是長期來我們面對中共對台的諜報的手段我們是不是反而都把這個焦點和重點全部放在軍隊上面了\n\n5\n00:01:43,154 --> 00:02:04,152\n但實際上從統計的資料我們來看應該有一個大部分的共諜反而是退役軍人或者是民間人士那當然別的單位我們都不說了光是我們這次外交國防委員會就出了一個共諜連總統府裡面也有就是這些共諜大部分都是依據國安法還有貪污自罪條例來起訴是嗎\n\n6\n00:02:06,797 --> 00:02:28,357\n對就每個供電案可能要看的是他的案情還有他違反法律的要件是什麼那才有涉及到到底是適用哪一些的法律那這部分應該檢察機關他們會做一些評估那再採用相關適用的法律要件來進行相關的起訴的動作所以每個案情都不太一樣\n\n7\n00:02:28,897 --> 00:02:44,011\n好那我們看一下螢幕北席就整理出來了最近這幾年有關的共諜案被告的判刑的情況大部分我看這個判大部分都是一年半到八年之間當然也有到十三年的那我想問請教一下局長你認為這樣的刑期真的能夠產生有效的嚇阻的作用嗎\n\n8\n00:02:49,296 --> 00:03:11,670\n對剛剛應該是馬文君委員也有在提到說到底現在的定罪率是怎麼樣那我再跟他報告的是在過去這五年裡面那大概有88個人裡面有75個人是被判刑的那而且在過去這五年平均的刑責大概是四年七個月平均起來是如此\n\n9\n00:03:12,190 --> 00:03:29,329\n那這個跟2019年大院通過的國安法制有點關係因為在2019年之前大概判刑的刑責平均只有一年但是2019年國安法制修法之後有我剛剛提到的4.7年左右\n\n10\n00:03:30,870 --> 00:03:49,819\n這部分就是還是有一些法律規定的部分以共諜案這麼的頻繁以及中共這麼鋪天蓋地的對我們進行滲透就國安的立場來講我們當然會希望相關的法規有沒有什麼漏洞可以來強化那刑責怎麼樣來提升以便來達到更好的嚇阻效果\n\n11\n00:03:50,239 --> 00:04:16,362\n避免中共對我們的一個共諜的部署我們看一下像美國這幾年有一些比較受人矚目的敵諜的案件的判刑的案例我們看到這個刑期這一欄其實我們都可以發現其中美國對共諜的判刑普遍其實都比我國還要更重然後甚至有一個叫麥大志的他是美國主要的金火商的工程師因為像中共遞交美國核潛艦相關的靜音技術資料被判了24年\n\n12\n00:04:17,903 --> 00:04:35,148\n所以我想本席這邊列舉的案例其中有一部分還是美國中央情報局還有聯邦調查局的文職人員他們向中共傳遞機密的資訊那我們國安局內部是不是也有那個非軍職的文職人員呢那這樣的比例大概是多少呢\n\n13\n00:04:37,068 --> 00:05:03,055\n對這部分因為國安局是依照我們的國安局組織法的規定我們是軍文共用的一個並用的一個單位那現在軍文配筆的話一般都是在六四筆到七三筆之間在移動因為也許我也知道軍職人員他離退的速度會比較快所以他一直是在變動的大概是六四筆跟七三筆之間\n\n14\n00:05:04,736 --> 00:05:21,454\n那如果文職人員涉及泄密及共諜的問題的時候國安局其實還是需要有一些法律工具去降低泄密的風險嘛那目前國安局有沒有什麼更積極的法律工具及做法可以預防文職人員的泄密還有涉及共諜不法的情勢發生呢\n\n15\n00:05:22,515 --> 00:05:36,854\n對,我想我們不只是文職啦,軍職人員也一樣那我們對於國安局的人員我們有國家情報人員的相關安全查核的辦法那能夠做一個比較詳實的安全的查核那另外\n\n16\n00:05:37,975 --> 00:05:53,962\n本局的人員的相關的揭密的程度也都有非常明確的一個分類那文件的管理也都有相關核密的等級來避免到不必要的機密讓太多人來知道我的意思是做一些資訊的分流\n\n17\n00:05:55,563 --> 00:06:23,475\n那第二部分是我們的人員假如出國的話都有非常嚴格的一個申請的機制那即使出國回來也都有我們的移測的一個過程那來避免到人員可能到海外的時候遭到接觸或滲透那北協還是希望國安局對共諜問題務必要比任何的機關單位來得更謹慎畢竟你們是守護國家保密防諜網絡的第一道防線是應該的謝謝委員提醒我們\n\n18\n00:06:26,196 --> 00:06:31,557\n謝謝林議員上台的發言主席不好意思還有再給我一點時間好在這下一個議題川普這次宣布了關稅的問題讓全球的經濟重傷那對中國而言實際上關稅疊加起來會高於54%這樣的話是等於加速了美中經濟的脫鉤那我們知道國際之間的政治和經濟是連動的那請問局長\n\n19\n00:06:53,402 --> 00:07:08,232\n那你知道1930年代的時候美國的斯穆特霍利稅法對德國還有日本造成的影響那時候是因為陷入了經濟的困境助長了極端主義才讓納稅和軍國主義可以有機可乘那你們的書面報告也有說中國在新冠肺炎之後國內的經濟復甦情況不好\n\n20\n00:07:17,738 --> 00:07:34,397\n所以照這樣的話那是不是會影響中共執政的正當性那局長根據你了解一般像中國這種極權國家遇到經濟狀況不佳的時候這時候的內部民意的壓力通常他們會想說會做出什麼樣的事情呢\n\n21\n00:07:35,198 --> 00:07:56,403\n對,一般有兩種的推論,就是在一般的討論常常有一些爭辯、辯論一種是在你內部的經濟或社會比較不穩定的時候可能會對外製造一些危機或衝突來轉移內部的焦點利用這種民族主義的情緒來塑造這種愛國心,那維持政權的穩定那另外一種是因為內部已經夠嚴重了\n\n22\n00:07:58,243 --> 00:08:24,519\n不管是政治、經濟、社會的條件已經夠嚴重了、夠惡化了那你假如在這個時候在對外有一些比較冒進的動作的話很有可能更加深了民眾對於你的支持度的流失所以兩派的意見長期以來都有那至於經濟會不會去影響到中共後續的一些對外新興或者是挑興的新興新興的這種可能性的話那最主要的還是我們自己包括國軍或我們國安單位\n\n23\n00:08:25,319 --> 00:08:38,464\n能夠有聯合情監真的能量來關注到中共相關的軍事動態我想這一塊應該是最直接我們能夠自己來掌握的好那中國如果真的武力犯台的時候那美國總統川普有沒有承諾過會協防台灣呢\n\n24\n00:08:40,985 --> 00:09:08,985\n是不是沒有承諾過會協防台灣呢因為我記得他是不是說過說他們會對中國採取無法忍受的經濟制裁呢如果像這樣的話那未來因為川普提高關稅的問題造成美中兩國的經貿連結開始降低了那採取經濟制裁的手段其實對中國還會有用嗎還有美國經濟制裁的方式嚇阻中國武力犯台的效果會降低那這是不是都可以預期到的呢\n\n25\n00:09:10,018 --> 00:09:32,420\n就經濟的部分來講我想川普政府上來之後不管是在美日的峰會還是美國防長這一次到亞洲來訪問以及美國在很多雙多邊的部長級的會議當中都有特別提到對於台海和平穩定的重視也反對任何武力或片面使用武力\n\n26\n00:09:33,001 --> 00:09:59,022\n威脅的手段來改變台海現狀所以我想美國在維持區域印太地區的和平穩定的這個立場上長期來應該是有一貫性的委員提到的第二問題是有沒有可能在中共對外新興的過程當中不管是對台灣或對周邊國家國際社會怎麼樣來透過經濟制裁給他一些壓力讓他來升高他可能發動戰事的一個成本那這個部分一般來講必須要國際社會有高度的共識\n\n27\n00:09:59,702 --> 00:10:24,691\n才有辦法來執行這樣的一個經濟的施壓而且經濟的施壓也必須要能夠準確到位才有辦法對這一個可能發動戰爭的行為者來帶來壓力那我也只要注意一下在俄烏戰爭期間那俄國就確實承受到來自西方國家不小經濟制裁所帶來的一個壓力有些也許短期看不到但長期來講對於俄國的一個經濟發展它帶來的傷害是非常重大的\n\n28\n00:10:25,134 --> 00:10:38,580\n好因為我這次看了這次的業務的報告裡面有一個就是川普這次宣布關稅其實造成全球的驚恐的時候對台灣其實一個也是一個非常重大的國安的風險但是我覺得說這次的業務報告裡面為什麼沒有特別提到這個呢而且雖然經濟政策當然我知道這不是國安局的專業但是經濟絕對會對台灣產生政治和軍事上面密切的風險所以國安局還是有責任要提醒國人還要跟國人說清楚\n\n29\n00:10:54,426 --> 00:11:07,364\n所以我想說以後在這種業務報告上面內容務必還要再更周全一點好我們來加強但這次業務報告我們事實上在情勢分析的第一點我們談的就是川普的關稅政策對全球帶來的衝擊謝謝委員的提醒謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t3532\t謝謝主席有請國安局蔡局長謝謝主席林委員好首先先請教局長最近吵的沸沸揚揚的共諜案的問題國安局在這一次的業務報告的書面資料的第八頁裡面有提到近兩年起訴的共諜案案件數量大幅的提升\n29153\t46273\t那先請教局長案件數量大幅的提升主要的原因是因為國安局偵防手段的精進還是國人保防的意識及你們對中共諜報工作的密度有相對的提升呢因為都有一方面是中共的滲透的力度不斷的在強化\n47674\t73195\t那鋪天蓋地的在對台灣進行相關的滲透跟共諜的部署那第二部分是當然我們國安情報機關也歷年來也累積了一些經驗那怎麼樣來在國安情報機關軍中保防單位檢查單位跟調查單位之間的合作也越來越密切這是第二部分那第三部分也跟其他委員有在報告的是也涉及到國人或我們軍中官兵弟兄他們的保防意識越來越強化\n74016\t102774\t那也透過檢舉的方式讓我們有更多的訓員來針對這些相關的共諜案可以啟動我們的查查的動作好 那根據統計113年發生的共諜案其實共起訴的64個人中有現役軍人就有28個那不就表示有差不多三分之二的共諜是非現役軍人但問題是長期來我們面對中共對台的諜報的手段我們是不是反而都把這個焦點和重點全部放在軍隊上面了\n103154\t124152\t但實際上從統計的資料我們來看應該有一個大部分的共諜反而是退役軍人或者是民間人士那當然別的單位我們都不說了光是我們這次外交國防委員會就出了一個共諜連總統府裡面也有就是這些共諜大部分都是依據國安法還有貪污自罪條例來起訴是嗎\n126797\t148357\t對 就每個供電案可能要看的是他的案情還有他違反法律的要件是什麼那才有涉及到到底是適用哪一些的法律那這部分應該檢察機關他們會做一些評估那再採用相關適用的法律要件來進行相關的起訴的動作所以每個案情都不太一樣\n148897\t164011\t好 那我們看一下螢幕北席就整理出來了最近這幾年有關的共諜案被告的判刑的情況大部分我看這個判大部分都是一年半到八年之間當然也有到十三年的那我想問請教一下局長你認為這樣的刑期真的能夠產生有效的嚇阻的作用嗎\n169296\t191670\t對 剛剛應該是馬文君委員也有在提到說到底現在的定罪率是怎麼樣那我再跟他報告的是在過去這五年裡面那大概有88個人裡面有75個人是被判刑的那而且在過去這五年平均的刑責大概是四年七個月平均起來是如此\n192190\t209329\t那這個跟2019年大院通過的國安法制有點關係因為在2019年之前大概判刑的刑責平均只有一年但是2019年國安法制修法之後有我剛剛提到的4.7年左右\n210870\t229819\t這部分就是還是有一些法律規定的部分以共諜案這麼的頻繁以及中共這麼鋪天蓋地的對我們進行滲透就國安的立場來講我們當然會希望相關的法規有沒有什麼漏洞可以來強化那刑責怎麼樣來提升以便來達到更好的嚇阻效果\n230239\t256362\t避免中共對我們的一個共諜的部署我們看一下像美國這幾年有一些比較受人矚目的敵諜的案件的判刑的案例我們看到這個刑期這一欄其實我們都可以發現其中美國對共諜的判刑普遍其實都比我國還要更重然後甚至有一個叫麥大志的他是美國主要的金火商的工程師因為像中共遞交美國核潛艦相關的靜音技術資料被判了24年\n257903\t275148\t所以我想本席這邊列舉的案例其中有一部分還是美國中央情報局還有聯邦調查局的文職人員他們向中共傳遞機密的資訊那我們國安局內部是不是也有那個非軍職的文職人員呢那這樣的比例大概是多少呢\n277068\t303055\t對 這部分因為國安局是依照我們的國安局組織法的規定我們是軍文共用的一個 並用的一個單位那現在軍文配筆的話一般都是在六四筆到七三筆之間在移動因為也許我也知道軍職人員他離退的速度會比較快所以他一直是在變動的大概是六四筆跟七三筆之間\n304736\t321454\t那如果文職人員涉及泄密及共諜的問題的時候國安局其實還是需要有一些法律工具去降低泄密的風險嘛那目前國安局有沒有什麼更積極的法律工具及做法可以預防文職人員的泄密還有涉及共諜不法的情勢發生呢\n322515\t336854\t對,我想我們不只是文職啦,軍職人員也一樣那我們對於國安局的人員我們有國家情報人員的相關安全查核的辦法那能夠做一個比較詳實的安全的查核那另外\n337975\t353962\t本局的人員的相關的揭密的程度也都有非常明確的一個分類那文件的管理也都有相關核密的等級來避免到不必要的機密讓太多人來知道我的意思是做一些資訊的分流\n355563\t383475\t那第二部分是我們的人員假如出國的話都有非常嚴格的一個申請的機制那即使出國回來也都有我們的移測的一個過程那來避免到人員可能到海外的時候遭到接觸或滲透那北協還是希望國安局對共諜問題務必要比任何的機關單位來得更謹慎畢竟你們是守護國家保密防諜網絡的第一道防線是應該的謝謝委員提醒我們\n386196\t391557\t謝謝林議員上台的發言主席不好意思還有再給我一點時間好在這下一個議題川普這次宣布了關稅的問題讓全球的經濟重傷那對中國而言實際上關稅疊加起來會高於54%這樣的話是等於加速了美中經濟的脫鉤那我們知道國際之間的政治和經濟是連動的那請問局長\n413402\t428232\t那你知道1930年代的時候美國的斯穆特霍利稅法對德國還有日本造成的影響那時候是因為陷入了經濟的困境助長了極端主義才讓納稅和軍國主義可以有機可乘那你們的書面報告也有說中國在新冠肺炎之後國內的經濟復甦情況不好\n437738\t454397\t所以照這樣的話那是不是會影響中共執政的正當性那局長根據你了解一般像中國這種極權國家遇到經濟狀況不佳的時候這時候的內部民意的壓力通常他們會想說會做出什麼樣的事情呢\n455198\t476403\t對,一般有兩種的推論,就是在一般的討論常常有一些爭辯、辯論一種是在你內部的經濟或社會比較不穩定的時候可能會對外製造一些危機或衝突來轉移內部的焦點利用這種民族主義的情緒來塑造這種愛國心,那維持政權的穩定那另外一種是因為內部已經夠嚴重了\n478243\t504519\t不管是政治、經濟、社會的條件已經夠嚴重了、夠惡化了那你假如在這個時候在對外有一些比較冒進的動作的話很有可能更加深了民眾對於你的支持度的流失所以兩派的意見長期以來都有那至於經濟會不會去影響到中共後續的一些對外新興或者是挑興的新興新興的這種可能性的話那最主要的還是我們自己包括國軍或我們國安單位\n505319\t518464\t能夠有聯合情監真的能量來關注到中共相關的軍事動態我想這一塊應該是最直接我們能夠自己來掌握的好 那中國如果真的武力犯台的時候那美國總統川普有沒有承諾過會協防台灣呢\n520985\t548985\t是不是沒有承諾過會協防台灣呢因為我記得他是不是說過說他們會對中國採取無法忍受的經濟制裁呢如果像這樣的話那未來因為川普提高關稅的問題造成美中兩國的經貿連結開始降低了那採取經濟制裁的手段其實對中國還會有用嗎還有美國經濟制裁的方式嚇阻中國武力犯台的效果會降低那這是不是都可以預期到的呢\n550018\t572420\t就經濟的部分來講我想川普政府上來之後不管是在美日的峰會還是美國防長這一次到亞洲來訪問以及美國在很多雙多邊的部長級的會議當中都有特別提到對於台海和平穩定的重視也反對任何武力或片面使用武力\n573001\t599022\t威脅的手段來改變台海現狀所以我想美國在維持區域印太地區的和平穩定的這個立場上長期來應該是有一貫性的委員提到的第二問題是有沒有可能在中共對外新興的過程當中不管是對台灣或對周邊國家國際社會怎麼樣來透過經濟制裁給他一些壓力讓他來升高他可能發動戰事的一個成本那這個部分一般來講必須要國際社會有高度的共識\n599702\t624691\t才有辦法來執行這樣的一個經濟的施壓而且經濟的施壓也必須要能夠準確到位才有辦法對這一個可能發動戰爭的行為者來帶來壓力那我也只要注意一下在俄烏戰爭期間那俄國就確實承受到來自西方國家不小經濟制裁所帶來的一個壓力有些也許短期看不到但長期來講對於俄國的一個經濟發展它帶來的傷害是非常重大的\n625134\t638580\t好因為我這次看了這次的業務的報告裡面有一個就是川普這次宣布關稅其實造成全球的驚恐的時候對台灣其實一個也是一個非常重大的國安的風險但是我覺得說這次的業務報告裡面為什麼沒有特別提到這個呢而且雖然經濟政策當然我知道這不是國安局的專業但是經濟絕對會對台灣產生政治和軍事上面密切的風險所以國安局還是有責任要提醒國人還要跟國人說清楚\n654426\t667364\t所以我想說以後在這種業務報告上面內容務必還要再更周全一點好 我們來加強但這次業務報告我們事實上在情勢分析的第一點我們談的就是川普的關稅政策對全球帶來的衝擊謝謝委員的提醒 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請國安局蔡局長謝謝主席林委員好首先先請教局長最近吵的沸沸揚揚的共諜案的問題國安局在這一次的業務報告的書面資料的第八頁裡面有提到近兩年起訴的共諜案案件數量大幅的提升\n那先請教局長案件數量大幅的提升主要的原因是因為國安局偵防手段的精進還是國人保防的意識及你們對中共諜報工作的密度有相對的提升呢因為都有一方面是中共的滲透的力度不斷的在強化\n那鋪天蓋地的在對台灣進行相關的滲透跟共諜的部署那第二部分是當然我們國安情報機關也歷年來也累積了一些經驗那怎麼樣來在國安情報機關軍中保防單位檢查單位跟調查單位之間的合作也越來越密切這是第二部分那第三部分也跟其他委員有在報告的是也涉及到國人或我們軍中官兵弟兄他們的保防意識越來越強化\n那也透過檢舉的方式讓我們有更多的訓員來針對這些相關的共諜案可以啟動我們的查查的動作好 那根據統計113年發生的共諜案其實共起訴的64個人中有現役軍人就有28個那不就表示有差不多三分之二的共諜是非現役軍人但問題是長期來我們面對中共對台的諜報的手段我們是不是反而都把這個焦點和重點全部放在軍隊上面了\n但實際上從統計的資料我們來看應該有一個大部分的共諜反而是退役軍人或者是民間人士那當然別的單位我們都不說了光是我們這次外交國防委員會就出了一個共諜連總統府裡面也有就是這些共諜大部分都是依據國安法還有貪污自罪條例來起訴是嗎\n對 就每個供電案可能要看的是他的案情還有他違反法律的要件是什麼那才有涉及到到底是適用哪一些的法律那這部分應該檢察機關他們會做一些評估那再採用相關適用的法律要件來進行相關的起訴的動作所以每個案情都不太一樣\n好 那我們看一下螢幕北席就整理出來了最近這幾年有關的共諜案被告的判刑的情況大部分我看這個判大部分都是一年半到八年之間當然也有到十三年的那我想問請教一下局長你認為這樣的刑期真的能夠產生有效的嚇阻的作用嗎\n對 剛剛應該是馬文君委員也有在提到說到底現在的定罪率是怎麼樣那我再跟他報告的是在過去這五年裡面那大概有88個人裡面有75個人是被判刑的那而且在過去這五年平均的刑責大概是四年七個月平均起來是如此\n那這個跟2019年大院通過的國安法制有點關係因為在2019年之前大概判刑的刑責平均只有一年但是2019年國安法制修法之後有我剛剛提到的4.7年左右\n這部分就是還是有一些法律規定的部分以共諜案這麼的頻繁以及中共這麼鋪天蓋地的對我們進行滲透就國安的立場來講我們當然會希望相關的法規有沒有什麼漏洞可以來強化那刑責怎麼樣來提升以便來達到更好的嚇阻效果\n避免中共對我們的一個共諜的部署我們看一下像美國這幾年有一些比較受人矚目的敵諜的案件的判刑的案例我們看到這個刑期這一欄其實我們都可以發現其中美國對共諜的判刑普遍其實都比我國還要更重然後甚至有一個叫麥大志的他是美國主要的金火商的工程師因為像中共遞交美國核潛艦相關的靜音技術資料被判了24年\n所以我想本席這邊列舉的案例其中有一部分還是美國中央情報局還有聯邦調查局的文職人員他們向中共傳遞機密的資訊那我們國安局內部是不是也有那個非軍職的文職人員呢那這樣的比例大概是多少呢\n對 這部分因為國安局是依照我們的國安局組織法的規定我們是軍文共用的一個 並用的一個單位那現在軍文配筆的話一般都是在六四筆到七三筆之間在移動因為也許我也知道軍職人員他離退的速度會比較快所以他一直是在變動的大概是六四筆跟七三筆之間\n那如果文職人員涉及泄密及共諜的問題的時候國安局其實還是需要有一些法律工具去降低泄密的風險嘛那目前國安局有沒有什麼更積極的法律工具及做法可以預防文職人員的泄密還有涉及共諜不法的情勢發生呢\n對,我想我們不只是文職啦,軍職人員也一樣那我們對於國安局的人員我們有國家情報人員的相關安全查核的辦法那能夠做一個比較詳實的安全的查核那另外\n本局的人員的相關的揭密的程度也都有非常明確的一個分類那文件的管理也都有相關核密的等級來避免到不必要的機密讓太多人來知道我的意思是做一些資訊的分流\n那第二部分是我們的人員假如出國的話都有非常嚴格的一個申請的機制那即使出國回來也都有我們的移測的一個過程那來避免到人員可能到海外的時候遭到接觸或滲透那北協還是希望國安局對共諜問題務必要比任何的機關單位來得更謹慎畢竟你們是守護國家保密防諜網絡的第一道防線是應該的謝謝委員提醒我們\n謝謝林議員上台的發言主席不好意思還有再給我一點時間好在這下一個議題川普這次宣布了關稅的問題讓全球的經濟重傷那對中國而言實際上關稅疊加起來會高於54%這樣的話是等於加速了美中經濟的脫鉤那我們知道國際之間的政治和經濟是連動的那請問局長\n那你知道1930年代的時候美國的斯穆特霍利稅法對德國還有日本造成的影響那時候是因為陷入了經濟的困境助長了極端主義才讓納稅和軍國主義可以有機可乘那你們的書面報告也有說中國在新冠肺炎之後國內的經濟復甦情況不好\n所以照這樣的話那是不是會影響中共執政的正當性那局長根據你了解一般像中國這種極權國家遇到經濟狀況不佳的時候這時候的內部民意的壓力通常他們會想說會做出什麼樣的事情呢\n對,一般有兩種的推論,就是在一般的討論常常有一些爭辯、辯論一種是在你內部的經濟或社會比較不穩定的時候可能會對外製造一些危機或衝突來轉移內部的焦點利用這種民族主義的情緒來塑造這種愛國心,那維持政權的穩定那另外一種是因為內部已經夠嚴重了\n不管是政治、經濟、社會的條件已經夠嚴重了、夠惡化了那你假如在這個時候在對外有一些比較冒進的動作的話很有可能更加深了民眾對於你的支持度的流失所以兩派的意見長期以來都有那至於經濟會不會去影響到中共後續的一些對外新興或者是挑興的新興新興的這種可能性的話那最主要的還是我們自己包括國軍或我們國安單位\n能夠有聯合情監真的能量來關注到中共相關的軍事動態我想這一塊應該是最直接我們能夠自己來掌握的好 那中國如果真的武力犯台的時候那美國總統川普有沒有承諾過會協防台灣呢\n是不是沒有承諾過會協防台灣呢因為我記得他是不是說過說他們會對中國採取無法忍受的經濟制裁呢如果像這樣的話那未來因為川普提高關稅的問題造成美中兩國的經貿連結開始降低了那採取經濟制裁的手段其實對中國還會有用嗎還有美國經濟制裁的方式嚇阻中國武力犯台的效果會降低那這是不是都可以預期到的呢\n就經濟的部分來講我想川普政府上來之後不管是在美日的峰會還是美國防長這一次到亞洲來訪問以及美國在很多雙多邊的部長級的會議當中都有特別提到對於台海和平穩定的重視也反對任何武力或片面使用武力\n威脅的手段來改變台海現狀所以我想美國在維持區域印太地區的和平穩定的這個立場上長期來應該是有一貫性的委員提到的第二問題是有沒有可能在中共對外新興的過程當中不管是對台灣或對周邊國家國際社會怎麼樣來透過經濟制裁給他一些壓力讓他來升高他可能發動戰事的一個成本那這個部分一般來講必須要國際社會有高度的共識\n才有辦法來執行這樣的一個經濟的施壓而且經濟的施壓也必須要能夠準確到位才有辦法對這一個可能發動戰爭的行為者來帶來壓力那我也只要注意一下在俄烏戰爭期間那俄國就確實承受到來自西方國家不小經濟制裁所帶來的一個壓力有些也許短期看不到但長期來講對於俄國的一個經濟發展它帶來的傷害是非常重大的\n好因為我這次看了這次的業務的報告裡面有一個就是川普這次宣布關稅其實造成全球的驚恐的時候對台灣其實一個也是一個非常重大的國安的風險但是我覺得說這次的業務報告裡面為什麼沒有特別提到這個呢而且雖然經濟政策當然我知道這不是國安局的專業但是經濟絕對會對台灣產生政治和軍事上面密切的風險所以國安局還是有責任要提醒國人還要跟國人說清楚\n所以我想說以後在這種業務報告上面內容務必還要再更周全一點好 我們來加強但這次業務報告我們事實上在情勢分析的第一點我們談的就是川普的關稅政策對全球帶來的衝擊謝謝委員的提醒 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:03.532\n謝謝主席有請國安局蔡局長謝謝主席林委員好首先先請教局長最近吵的沸沸揚揚的共諜案的問題國安局在這一次的業務報告的書面資料的第八頁裡面有提到近兩年起訴的共諜案案件數量大幅的提升\n\n00:29.153 --> 00:46.273\n那先請教局長案件數量大幅的提升主要的原因是因為國安局偵防手段的精進還是國人保防的意識及你們對中共諜報工作的密度有相對的提升呢因為都有一方面是中共的滲透的力度不斷的在強化\n\n00:47.674 --> 01:13.195\n那鋪天蓋地的在對台灣進行相關的滲透跟共諜的部署那第二部分是當然我們國安情報機關也歷年來也累積了一些經驗那怎麼樣來在國安情報機關軍中保防單位檢查單位跟調查單位之間的合作也越來越密切這是第二部分那第三部分也跟其他委員有在報告的是也涉及到國人或我們軍中官兵弟兄他們的保防意識越來越強化\n\n01:14.016 --> 01:42.774\n那也透過檢舉的方式讓我們有更多的訓員來針對這些相關的共諜案可以啟動我們的查查的動作好那根據統計113年發生的共諜案其實共起訴的64個人中有現役軍人就有28個那不就表示有差不多三分之二的共諜是非現役軍人但問題是長期來我們面對中共對台的諜報的手段我們是不是反而都把這個焦點和重點全部放在軍隊上面了\n\n01:43.154 --> 02:04.152\n但實際上從統計的資料我們來看應該有一個大部分的共諜反而是退役軍人或者是民間人士那當然別的單位我們都不說了光是我們這次外交國防委員會就出了一個共諜連總統府裡面也有就是這些共諜大部分都是依據國安法還有貪污自罪條例來起訴是嗎\n\n02:06.797 --> 02:28.357\n對就每個供電案可能要看的是他的案情還有他違反法律的要件是什麼那才有涉及到到底是適用哪一些的法律那這部分應該檢察機關他們會做一些評估那再採用相關適用的法律要件來進行相關的起訴的動作所以每個案情都不太一樣\n\n02:28.897 --> 02:44.011\n好那我們看一下螢幕北席就整理出來了最近這幾年有關的共諜案被告的判刑的情況大部分我看這個判大部分都是一年半到八年之間當然也有到十三年的那我想問請教一下局長你認為這樣的刑期真的能夠產生有效的嚇阻的作用嗎\n\n02:49.296 --> 03:11.670\n對剛剛應該是馬文君委員也有在提到說到底現在的定罪率是怎麼樣那我再跟他報告的是在過去這五年裡面那大概有88個人裡面有75個人是被判刑的那而且在過去這五年平均的刑責大概是四年七個月平均起來是如此\n\n03:12.190 --> 03:29.329\n那這個跟2019年大院通過的國安法制有點關係因為在2019年之前大概判刑的刑責平均只有一年但是2019年國安法制修法之後有我剛剛提到的4.7年左右\n\n03:30.870 --> 03:49.819\n這部分就是還是有一些法律規定的部分以共諜案這麼的頻繁以及中共這麼鋪天蓋地的對我們進行滲透就國安的立場來講我們當然會希望相關的法規有沒有什麼漏洞可以來強化那刑責怎麼樣來提升以便來達到更好的嚇阻效果\n\n03:50.239 --> 04:16.362\n避免中共對我們的一個共諜的部署我們看一下像美國這幾年有一些比較受人矚目的敵諜的案件的判刑的案例我們看到這個刑期這一欄其實我們都可以發現其中美國對共諜的判刑普遍其實都比我國還要更重然後甚至有一個叫麥大志的他是美國主要的金火商的工程師因為像中共遞交美國核潛艦相關的靜音技術資料被判了24年\n\n04:17.903 --> 04:35.148\n所以我想本席這邊列舉的案例其中有一部分還是美國中央情報局還有聯邦調查局的文職人員他們向中共傳遞機密的資訊那我們國安局內部是不是也有那個非軍職的文職人員呢那這樣的比例大概是多少呢\n\n04:37.068 --> 05:03.055\n對這部分因為國安局是依照我們的國安局組織法的規定我們是軍文共用的一個並用的一個單位那現在軍文配筆的話一般都是在六四筆到七三筆之間在移動因為也許我也知道軍職人員他離退的速度會比較快所以他一直是在變動的大概是六四筆跟七三筆之間\n\n05:04.736 --> 05:21.454\n那如果文職人員涉及泄密及共諜的問題的時候國安局其實還是需要有一些法律工具去降低泄密的風險嘛那目前國安局有沒有什麼更積極的法律工具及做法可以預防文職人員的泄密還有涉及共諜不法的情勢發生呢\n\n05:22.515 --> 05:36.854\n對,我想我們不只是文職啦,軍職人員也一樣那我們對於國安局的人員我們有國家情報人員的相關安全查核的辦法那能夠做一個比較詳實的安全的查核那另外\n\n05:37.975 --> 05:53.962\n本局的人員的相關的揭密的程度也都有非常明確的一個分類那文件的管理也都有相關核密的等級來避免到不必要的機密讓太多人來知道我的意思是做一些資訊的分流\n\n05:55.563 --> 06:23.475\n那第二部分是我們的人員假如出國的話都有非常嚴格的一個申請的機制那即使出國回來也都有我們的移測的一個過程那來避免到人員可能到海外的時候遭到接觸或滲透那北協還是希望國安局對共諜問題務必要比任何的機關單位來得更謹慎畢竟你們是守護國家保密防諜網絡的第一道防線是應該的謝謝委員提醒我們\n\n06:26.196 --> 06:31.557\n謝謝林議員上台的發言主席不好意思還有再給我一點時間好在這下一個議題川普這次宣布了關稅的問題讓全球的經濟重傷那對中國而言實際上關稅疊加起來會高於54%這樣的話是等於加速了美中經濟的脫鉤那我們知道國際之間的政治和經濟是連動的那請問局長\n\n06:53.402 --> 07:08.232\n那你知道1930年代的時候美國的斯穆特霍利稅法對德國還有日本造成的影響那時候是因為陷入了經濟的困境助長了極端主義才讓納稅和軍國主義可以有機可乘那你們的書面報告也有說中國在新冠肺炎之後國內的經濟復甦情況不好\n\n07:17.738 --> 07:34.397\n所以照這樣的話那是不是會影響中共執政的正當性那局長根據你了解一般像中國這種極權國家遇到經濟狀況不佳的時候這時候的內部民意的壓力通常他們會想說會做出什麼樣的事情呢\n\n07:35.198 --> 07:56.403\n對,一般有兩種的推論,就是在一般的討論常常有一些爭辯、辯論一種是在你內部的經濟或社會比較不穩定的時候可能會對外製造一些危機或衝突來轉移內部的焦點利用這種民族主義的情緒來塑造這種愛國心,那維持政權的穩定那另外一種是因為內部已經夠嚴重了\n\n07:58.243 --> 08:24.519\n不管是政治、經濟、社會的條件已經夠嚴重了、夠惡化了那你假如在這個時候在對外有一些比較冒進的動作的話很有可能更加深了民眾對於你的支持度的流失所以兩派的意見長期以來都有那至於經濟會不會去影響到中共後續的一些對外新興或者是挑興的新興新興的這種可能性的話那最主要的還是我們自己包括國軍或我們國安單位\n\n08:25.319 --> 08:38.464\n能夠有聯合情監真的能量來關注到中共相關的軍事動態我想這一塊應該是最直接我們能夠自己來掌握的好那中國如果真的武力犯台的時候那美國總統川普有沒有承諾過會協防台灣呢\n\n08:40.985 --> 09:08.985\n是不是沒有承諾過會協防台灣呢因為我記得他是不是說過說他們會對中國採取無法忍受的經濟制裁呢如果像這樣的話那未來因為川普提高關稅的問題造成美中兩國的經貿連結開始降低了那採取經濟制裁的手段其實對中國還會有用嗎還有美國經濟制裁的方式嚇阻中國武力犯台的效果會降低那這是不是都可以預期到的呢\n\n09:10.018 --> 09:32.420\n就經濟的部分來講我想川普政府上來之後不管是在美日的峰會還是美國防長這一次到亞洲來訪問以及美國在很多雙多邊的部長級的會議當中都有特別提到對於台海和平穩定的重視也反對任何武力或片面使用武力\n\n09:33.001 --> 09:59.022\n威脅的手段來改變台海現狀所以我想美國在維持區域印太地區的和平穩定的這個立場上長期來應該是有一貫性的委員提到的第二問題是有沒有可能在中共對外新興的過程當中不管是對台灣或對周邊國家國際社會怎麼樣來透過經濟制裁給他一些壓力讓他來升高他可能發動戰事的一個成本那這個部分一般來講必須要國際社會有高度的共識\n\n09:59.702 --> 10:24.691\n才有辦法來執行這樣的一個經濟的施壓而且經濟的施壓也必須要能夠準確到位才有辦法對這一個可能發動戰爭的行為者來帶來壓力那我也只要注意一下在俄烏戰爭期間那俄國就確實承受到來自西方國家不小經濟制裁所帶來的一個壓力有些也許短期看不到但長期來講對於俄國的一個經濟發展它帶來的傷害是非常重大的\n\n10:25.134 --> 10:38.580\n好因為我這次看了這次的業務的報告裡面有一個就是川普這次宣布關稅其實造成全球的驚恐的時候對台灣其實一個也是一個非常重大的國安的風險但是我覺得說這次的業務報告裡面為什麼沒有特別提到這個呢而且雖然經濟政策當然我知道這不是國安局的專業但是經濟絕對會對台灣產生政治和軍事上面密切的風險所以國安局還是有責任要提醒國人還要跟國人說清楚\n\n10:54.426 --> 11:07.364\n所以我想說以後在這種業務報告上面內容務必還要再更周全一點好我們來加強但這次業務報告我們事實上在情勢分析的第一點我們談的就是川普的關稅政策對全球帶來的衝擊謝謝委員的提醒謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":3.532,"text":"謝謝主席有請國安局蔡局長謝謝主席林委員好首先先請教局長最近吵的沸沸揚揚的共諜案的問題國安局在這一次的業務報告的書面資料的第八頁裡面有提到近兩年起訴的共諜案案件數量大幅的提升"},{"start":29.153,"end":46.273,"text":"那先請教局長案件數量大幅的提升主要的原因是因為國安局偵防手段的精進還是國人保防的意識及你們對中共諜報工作的密度有相對的提升呢因為都有一方面是中共的滲透的力度不斷的在強化"},{"start":47.674,"end":73.195,"text":"那鋪天蓋地的在對台灣進行相關的滲透跟共諜的部署那第二部分是當然我們國安情報機關也歷年來也累積了一些經驗那怎麼樣來在國安情報機關軍中保防單位檢查單位跟調查單位之間的合作也越來越密切這是第二部分那第三部分也跟其他委員有在報告的是也涉及到國人或我們軍中官兵弟兄他們的保防意識越來越強化"},{"start":74.016,"end":102.774,"text":"那也透過檢舉的方式讓我們有更多的訓員來針對這些相關的共諜案可以啟動我們的查查的動作好 那根據統計113年發生的共諜案其實共起訴的64個人中有現役軍人就有28個那不就表示有差不多三分之二的共諜是非現役軍人但問題是長期來我們面對中共對台的諜報的手段我們是不是反而都把這個焦點和重點全部放在軍隊上面了"},{"start":103.154,"end":124.152,"text":"但實際上從統計的資料我們來看應該有一個大部分的共諜反而是退役軍人或者是民間人士那當然別的單位我們都不說了光是我們這次外交國防委員會就出了一個共諜連總統府裡面也有就是這些共諜大部分都是依據國安法還有貪污自罪條例來起訴是嗎"},{"start":126.797,"end":148.357,"text":"對 就每個供電案可能要看的是他的案情還有他違反法律的要件是什麼那才有涉及到到底是適用哪一些的法律那這部分應該檢察機關他們會做一些評估那再採用相關適用的法律要件來進行相關的起訴的動作所以每個案情都不太一樣"},{"start":148.897,"end":164.011,"text":"好 那我們看一下螢幕北席就整理出來了最近這幾年有關的共諜案被告的判刑的情況大部分我看這個判大部分都是一年半到八年之間當然也有到十三年的那我想問請教一下局長你認為這樣的刑期真的能夠產生有效的嚇阻的作用嗎"},{"start":169.296,"end":191.67,"text":"對 剛剛應該是馬文君委員也有在提到說到底現在的定罪率是怎麼樣那我再跟他報告的是在過去這五年裡面那大概有88個人裡面有75個人是被判刑的那而且在過去這五年平均的刑責大概是四年七個月平均起來是如此"},{"start":192.19,"end":209.329,"text":"那這個跟2019年大院通過的國安法制有點關係因為在2019年之前大概判刑的刑責平均只有一年但是2019年國安法制修法之後有我剛剛提到的4.7年左右"},{"start":210.87,"end":229.819,"text":"這部分就是還是有一些法律規定的部分以共諜案這麼的頻繁以及中共這麼鋪天蓋地的對我們進行滲透就國安的立場來講我們當然會希望相關的法規有沒有什麼漏洞可以來強化那刑責怎麼樣來提升以便來達到更好的嚇阻效果"},{"start":230.239,"end":256.362,"text":"避免中共對我們的一個共諜的部署我們看一下像美國這幾年有一些比較受人矚目的敵諜的案件的判刑的案例我們看到這個刑期這一欄其實我們都可以發現其中美國對共諜的判刑普遍其實都比我國還要更重然後甚至有一個叫麥大志的他是美國主要的金火商的工程師因為像中共遞交美國核潛艦相關的靜音技術資料被判了24年"},{"start":257.903,"end":275.148,"text":"所以我想本席這邊列舉的案例其中有一部分還是美國中央情報局還有聯邦調查局的文職人員他們向中共傳遞機密的資訊那我們國安局內部是不是也有那個非軍職的文職人員呢那這樣的比例大概是多少呢"},{"start":277.068,"end":303.055,"text":"對 這部分因為國安局是依照我們的國安局組織法的規定我們是軍文共用的一個 並用的一個單位那現在軍文配筆的話一般都是在六四筆到七三筆之間在移動因為也許我也知道軍職人員他離退的速度會比較快所以他一直是在變動的大概是六四筆跟七三筆之間"},{"start":304.736,"end":321.454,"text":"那如果文職人員涉及泄密及共諜的問題的時候國安局其實還是需要有一些法律工具去降低泄密的風險嘛那目前國安局有沒有什麼更積極的法律工具及做法可以預防文職人員的泄密還有涉及共諜不法的情勢發生呢"},{"start":322.515,"end":336.854,"text":"對,我想我們不只是文職啦,軍職人員也一樣那我們對於國安局的人員我們有國家情報人員的相關安全查核的辦法那能夠做一個比較詳實的安全的查核那另外"},{"start":337.975,"end":353.962,"text":"本局的人員的相關的揭密的程度也都有非常明確的一個分類那文件的管理也都有相關核密的等級來避免到不必要的機密讓太多人來知道我的意思是做一些資訊的分流"},{"start":355.563,"end":383.475,"text":"那第二部分是我們的人員假如出國的話都有非常嚴格的一個申請的機制那即使出國回來也都有我們的移測的一個過程那來避免到人員可能到海外的時候遭到接觸或滲透那北協還是希望國安局對共諜問題務必要比任何的機關單位來得更謹慎畢竟你們是守護國家保密防諜網絡的第一道防線是應該的謝謝委員提醒我們"},{"start":386.196,"end":391.557,"text":"謝謝林議員上台的發言主席不好意思還有再給我一點時間好在這下一個議題川普這次宣布了關稅的問題讓全球的經濟重傷那對中國而言實際上關稅疊加起來會高於54%這樣的話是等於加速了美中經濟的脫鉤那我們知道國際之間的政治和經濟是連動的那請問局長"},{"start":413.402,"end":428.232,"text":"那你知道1930年代的時候美國的斯穆特霍利稅法對德國還有日本造成的影響那時候是因為陷入了經濟的困境助長了極端主義才讓納稅和軍國主義可以有機可乘那你們的書面報告也有說中國在新冠肺炎之後國內的經濟復甦情況不好"},{"start":437.738,"end":454.397,"text":"所以照這樣的話那是不是會影響中共執政的正當性那局長根據你了解一般像中國這種極權國家遇到經濟狀況不佳的時候這時候的內部民意的壓力通常他們會想說會做出什麼樣的事情呢"},{"start":455.198,"end":476.403,"text":"對,一般有兩種的推論,就是在一般的討論常常有一些爭辯、辯論一種是在你內部的經濟或社會比較不穩定的時候可能會對外製造一些危機或衝突來轉移內部的焦點利用這種民族主義的情緒來塑造這種愛國心,那維持政權的穩定那另外一種是因為內部已經夠嚴重了"},{"start":478.243,"end":504.519,"text":"不管是政治、經濟、社會的條件已經夠嚴重了、夠惡化了那你假如在這個時候在對外有一些比較冒進的動作的話很有可能更加深了民眾對於你的支持度的流失所以兩派的意見長期以來都有那至於經濟會不會去影響到中共後續的一些對外新興或者是挑興的新興新興的這種可能性的話那最主要的還是我們自己包括國軍或我們國安單位"},{"start":505.319,"end":518.464,"text":"能夠有聯合情監真的能量來關注到中共相關的軍事動態我想這一塊應該是最直接我們能夠自己來掌握的好 那中國如果真的武力犯台的時候那美國總統川普有沒有承諾過會協防台灣呢"},{"start":520.985,"end":548.985,"text":"是不是沒有承諾過會協防台灣呢因為我記得他是不是說過說他們會對中國採取無法忍受的經濟制裁呢如果像這樣的話那未來因為川普提高關稅的問題造成美中兩國的經貿連結開始降低了那採取經濟制裁的手段其實對中國還會有用嗎還有美國經濟制裁的方式嚇阻中國武力犯台的效果會降低那這是不是都可以預期到的呢"},{"start":550.018,"end":572.42,"text":"就經濟的部分來講我想川普政府上來之後不管是在美日的峰會還是美國防長這一次到亞洲來訪問以及美國在很多雙多邊的部長級的會議當中都有特別提到對於台海和平穩定的重視也反對任何武力或片面使用武力"},{"start":573.001,"end":599.022,"text":"威脅的手段來改變台海現狀所以我想美國在維持區域印太地區的和平穩定的這個立場上長期來應該是有一貫性的委員提到的第二問題是有沒有可能在中共對外新興的過程當中不管是對台灣或對周邊國家國際社會怎麼樣來透過經濟制裁給他一些壓力讓他來升高他可能發動戰事的一個成本那這個部分一般來講必須要國際社會有高度的共識"},{"start":599.702,"end":624.691,"text":"才有辦法來執行這樣的一個經濟的施壓而且經濟的施壓也必須要能夠準確到位才有辦法對這一個可能發動戰爭的行為者來帶來壓力那我也只要注意一下在俄烏戰爭期間那俄國就確實承受到來自西方國家不小經濟制裁所帶來的一個壓力有些也許短期看不到但長期來講對於俄國的一個經濟發展它帶來的傷害是非常重大的"},{"start":625.134,"end":638.58,"text":"好因為我這次看了這次的業務的報告裡面有一個就是川普這次宣布關稅其實造成全球的驚恐的時候對台灣其實一個也是一個非常重大的國安的風險但是我覺得說這次的業務報告裡面為什麼沒有特別提到這個呢而且雖然經濟政策當然我知道這不是國安局的專業但是經濟絕對會對台灣產生政治和軍事上面密切的風險所以國安局還是有責任要提醒國人還要跟國人說清楚"},{"start":654.426,"end":667.364,"text":"所以我想說以後在這種業務報告上面內容務必還要再更周全一點好 我們來加強但這次業務報告我們事實上在情勢分析的第一點我們談的就是川普的關稅政策對全球帶來的衝擊謝謝委員的提醒 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":825,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（11時56分）謝謝主席，有請國安局蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，林委員好。"],["林委員憶君：首先請教局長，最近吵得沸沸揚揚共諜案的問題，國安局在這次的業務報告書面資料第8頁裡面有提到，近2年起訴的共諜案案件數量大幅提升，請教局長案件數量大幅提升主要的原因是因為國安局偵防手段的精進？還是國人保防的意識及你們對中共諜報工作的密度有提升？"],["蔡局長明彥：應該都有，一方面是中共滲透的力度不斷的在強化，鋪天蓋地的對臺灣進行滲透跟共諜的部署；第二部分，我們國安情報機關歷年來也累積了一些經驗，在國安情報機關、軍中保防單位、檢察單位跟調查單位之間的合作也越來越密切；第三部分，也有跟其他委員報告，涉及到國人或軍中官兵弟兄的保防意識越來越強化，也透過檢舉的方式，讓我們有更多的訊源來針對這些共諜案啟動查察的動作。"],["林委員憶君：根據統計113年發生的共諜案，共起訴的64個人中，現役軍人就有28個，不就表示差不多三分之二的共諜是非現役軍人？問題是長期以來，我們面對中共對臺諜報的手段，是不是反而都把焦點全部放在軍隊上面？實際上，從統計資料來看，應該有大部分共諜反而是退役軍人或者是民間人士，別的單位我們就不說了，光是我們這次外交及國防委員會就出了1個共諜，連總統府裡面也有，這些共諜大部分都是依據國安法還有貪污治罪條例來起訴，是嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，每個共諜案要看的是他的案情，還有他違反法律的要件是什麼，還有涉及到是適用哪一些的法律，這一部分檢察機關會做評估，採用適用的法律要件來進行起訴，所以每個案情都不太一樣。"],["林委員憶君：好，我們看一下螢幕，本席整理出最近這幾年共諜案被告判刑的情況，大部分判都是1年半到8年之間，當然也有到13年的，我想請教一下局長，你認為這樣的刑期真的能夠產生有效嚇阻的作用嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：剛剛應該是馬文君委員也有提到，現在的定罪率是怎樣？我跟他報告，在過去這5年裡面，大概88人裡面有75個人是被判刑的，而且在過去這5年平均刑責大概是4年7個月，這個跟2019年大院通過的國安法有點關係，因為在2019年之前，判刑的刑責大概都平均只有1年，但是2019年國安法修法之後，判刑大概是我提到的4.7年左右，所以這部分還是有法律規定，以共諜案這麼頻繁，以及中共鋪天蓋地對我們進行滲透，就國安的立場來講，我們當然會希望看相關的法規有沒有什麼漏洞可以來強化，刑責怎麼來提升，以便來達到更好的嚇阻效果，避免中共對我們共諜的部署。"],["林委員憶君：我們看一下美國這幾年有一些比較受人矚目敵諜案件的判刑案例，其中美國對共諜的判刑普遍都比我國還更重，有一個叫麥大志，他是美國主要軍火商的工程師，因為向中共遞交美國核潛艦相關的靜音技術資料被判了24年，本席列舉的案例，其中有一部分是美國中央情報局，還有聯邦調查局的文職人員，他們向中共傳遞機密的資訊，國安局內部是不是也有非軍職的文職人員，比例大概是多少？"],["蔡局長明彥：國安局是依照國安局組織法的規定，我們是軍文並用的單位，現在軍文配比的話，一般都是在六四比到七三比之間在移動，也許委員知道軍職人員離退的速度會比較快，所以一直是在變動的，大概是六四比跟七三比之間。"],["林委員憶君：好，如果文職人員涉及洩密及共諜問題的時候，國安局還是需要有法律工具去降低洩密的風險，目前國安局有沒有什麼更積極的法律工具及作法可以預防文職人員的洩密，還有涉及共諜不法的情事發生？"],["蔡局長明彥：不只是文職人員，軍職人員也一樣，我們對於國安局的人員有國家情報人員的安全查核的辦法，能夠做比較詳實的、安全的查核；另外，本局人員接密的程度，也都有非常明確的分類，文件的管理也都有核密的等級避免不必要的機密讓太多人知道，我的意思是做一些資訊的分流。","第二部分，我們的人員只要出國的話，都有非常嚴格的申請機制，即使出國回來，也都有移徹的過程，避免人員可能到海外的時候，遭到接觸或滲透。"],["林委員憶君：本席還是希望國安局對共諜問題務必要比任何的機關單位來得更謹慎……"],["蔡局長明彥：會。"],["林委員憶君：畢竟你們是守護國家保密防諜網絡的第一道防線。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，應該的，謝謝委員提醒我們。"],["主席：謝謝林憶君委員上臺發言，那……"],["林委員憶君：主席不好意思，還有議題要詢問，再給我一點時間。"],["主席：好。"],["林委員憶君：下一個議題，川普這次宣布關稅的問題，讓全球的經濟重傷，對中國而言，實際上關稅疊加起來會高於54%，等於加速了美、中經濟的脫鉤，我們知道國際之間的政治和經濟是連動的，請問局長，你知道1930年代的時候，美國的斯姆特─霍利稅法對德國還有日本造成的影響，那時候因為陷入了經濟的困境，助長極端主義，才讓納粹和軍國主義有機可趁，你們的書面報告也有說，中國在新冠肺炎之後，國內的經濟復甦情況不好，照這樣的話，是不是會影響中共執政的正當性？局長，根據你了解，像中國這種集權國家，遇到經濟狀況不佳的時候，這時候內部民意的壓力，通常他們會做出什麼的事情？"],["蔡局長明彥：一般會有2種的推論，這2種狀況常常有爭辯。一種是在內部的經濟或社會比較不穩定的時候，可能會對外製造危機或衝突，轉移內部的焦點，利用這種民族主義的情緒來塑造愛國心，維持政權的穩定；另外一種是因為內部已經夠嚴重，不管是政治、經濟、社會的條件已經夠嚴重、夠惡化了，假如在這個時候，對外有比較冒進的動作，很有可能更加深的民眾對於你的支持度流失，所以長期以來都有兩派的意見，至於經濟會不會去影響到中共後續的對外興釁的可能性的話，最主要的還是我們自己包括國軍或國安單位能夠有聯合情監偵的能量，來關注到中共的軍事動態，我想這一塊應該是最直接，我們能夠自己掌握的。"],["林委員憶君：中國如果真的武力犯臺的時候，美國總統川普有沒有承諾過會協防臺灣？是不是沒有承諾過？因為我記得他是不是說過他們會對中國採取無法忍受的經濟制裁？如果像這樣的話，因為川普提高關稅的問題，造成美、中兩國的經貿連結開始降低了，採取經濟制裁的手段，對中國還會有用嗎？美國經濟制裁的方式，嚇阻中國武力犯臺的效果會降低，這是不是都可以預期？"],["蔡局長明彥：就經濟的部分來講，我想川普政府上來之後，不管是在美、日的峰會，還是美國防長這一次到亞洲來訪問，以及美國在很多雙、多邊的部長級的會議當中，都有特別提到對於臺海和平穩定的重視，也反對任何武力或片面使用武力威脅的手段來改變臺海現狀，所以我想，美國在維持印太地區的和平、穩定的立場上，長期以來應該是有一貫性的。","委員提到的第二個問題，有沒有可能在中共對外興釁的過程當中，不管是對臺灣或對周邊國家，國際社會怎麼樣透過經濟制裁，給他一些壓力，讓他升高可能發動戰事的成本，這個部分一般來講，必須要國際社會有高度的共識，才有辦法執行經濟的施壓，而且經濟施壓也必須準確到位，才有辦法對可能發動戰爭的行為者帶來壓力。委員只要注意一下在俄烏戰爭期間，俄國就確實承受到來自西方國家經濟制裁所帶來的壓力，也許短期看不到，但長期來講，對於俄國的經濟發展，帶來的傷害是非常重大。"],["林委員憶君：因為我看這次的業務報告裡面有一個就是川普這次宣布關稅造成全球驚恐，對臺灣其實也是非常重大的國安風險，但是這次的業務報告裡面為什麼沒有特別提到這個？雖然經濟政策我知道這不是國安局的專業，但是經濟絕對會對臺灣產生政治和軍事上密切的風險，所以國安局還是有責任要提醒國人，要跟國人說清楚，所以我想以後在這種業務報告上面內容務必還要再更周全一點。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們來加強，但這次業務報告，我們在情勢分析的第一點，我們談的就是川普的關稅政策對全球帶來的衝擊，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["林委員憶君：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林憶君上臺質詢。","已登記質詢委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。委員口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內答復，委員另約定期限者，從其所定。以上如有涉及機密部分，請確實依相關保密規定辦理。","本日會議到此結束，散會。","散會（12時8分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-6","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","馬文君","王定宇","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","沈伯洋","李坤城","王鴻薇","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00001"}}}