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\"text\": \"7224萬你們有說要用公務預算去歸電嗎目前\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 400.145, \"end\": 400.245, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 400.245, \"end\": 400.745, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 400.745, \"end\": 400.825, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 400.825, \"end\": 400.865, \"score\": 0.473}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 400.865, \"end\": 400.885, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 400.885, \"end\": 401.025, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 401.025, \"end\": 401.045, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"歸\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 401.045, \"end\": 401.125, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 401.125, \"end\": 401.145, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 414.134, \"end\": 441.178, \"text\": 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00:00:31,206\n部長好今天就勞動部的這個救安基金違規使用的部分那我是希望未來不要再有這樣類似的狀況那針對這個之前這個基金使用不當的這樣的一個狀況那我想請教就是說我們這個\n\n3\n00:00:33,268 --> 00:00:50,811\n原本我們用救安基金好去從事可能就媒體文宣或者是購買一些紀念品那原本這個應該也許我看到主計好像這個是不是說原本應該是要在公務預算裡面的\n\n4\n00:00:51,852 --> 00:01:20,454\n那後來你們是用這個救安基金用救安基金來使用是審計會觀念不高那未來譬如說你們今年或者是明年原本一些媒宣這個文宣的這個部分啊或者是你們可能這個勞工的一些可能辦什麼樣的比賽那可能原本都用救安基金那你們未來如果這個救安基金不符合\n\n5\n00:01:21,174 --> 00:01:48,327\n這樣的一個規定的話那你們要怎麼去用公務預算那公務預算如果你們又編不足的話那你們這些業務要怎麼執行跟黃委員說明其實勞動部一直長期以來我們都有公務預算編列不足的狀況那這部分當然我們現在也跟主計跟行政院希望能夠合理的爭取至少在其他部會他們\n\n6\n00:01:49,568 --> 00:02:11,467\n用公務預算的部分請也讓我們是可以編在公務預算裡面不然我們過去其實常常我們的公務預算的規模反而是縮減的那才會變成說有一些業務的項目會變成是用救安基金來使用那就會衍生產生爭議的問題所以第一個我們其實在救安基金的改革裡面第一個開宗明義就是說希望能夠合理的爭取編列公務預算這是第一點\n\n7\n00:02:12,208 --> 00:02:23,473\n那第二點是我們也檢討了雖然剛才包括很謝謝這個審計部其實給我們的一些指導那我們會完全遵照審計的指導來進行可是我們自己也做了內部的檢討這個內部的檢討包括\n\n8\n00:02:27,267 --> 00:02:55,790\n我們自己確實認為這裡面會有一些管理機制不夠的問題所以我們也提出來了這個救安基金的強化管理的策進的方案也有部分我必須坦承說我自己覺得也有某些業務的執行可能有過於鋪張或者是效益不佳的問題我們也提出相關的檢討那剛剛很多委員也講到關於開口契約的問題我們其實也把相關的開口契約在去年12月的時候就直接完全的停下來了\n\n9\n00:02:57,051 --> 00:03:18,226\n也就是現在我們的開口契約不能夠再像過去這樣子的使用它的範圍這麼樣子可能彈性過大的狀況會不容易管理或不容易範定所以這些機制面的改革跟改進我們現在都在進行中而且已經改進了這部分就是希望要避免剛剛黃媛講的\n\n10\n00:03:19,907 --> 00:03:39,022\n未來再發生類似的事情我想其實這大家都不樂意見到所以我們用機制的方法用制度的方法來去杜絕過去可能大家不樂見看到的這些爭議這是我想這一段時間我們跟很多公務我們部裡面公務的同仁很努力的一個方向那現在也很有成果了\n\n11\n00:03:39,602 --> 00:03:59,970\n好那我們當然就是說不希望有再有類似這樣的狀況可是先決條件就是說你原本需要做的一些業務你可能就要在公務預算你就要把它編制要不然你變成說你公務預算你沒有錢那你當然就是說救安基金就類似一個小金庫那我可以可以從那邊這個用預算來來\n\n12\n00:04:03,411 --> 00:04:17,783\n支付然後可能你們辦一些活動我之前有參加過我們勞動部辦的勞工的歌唱比賽我有去看我沒有唱啦我有去看啦我覺得這對勞工來說很多勞工他們是真的非常喜歡唱歌\n\n13\n00:04:25,790 --> 00:04:54,003\n這真的這個不是只有勞工是所有人應該都很喜歡唱歌啦而且如果又有一個舞台的話其實對勞工來講他們是非常開心的那我覺得說那如果說未來當然我覺得救安基金後面已經被弄得好像有點就是說你們如果沒有用在正當的這個活動上面或正當的業務上面可能就會會讓人家詬病嘛那我覺得如果未來\n\n14\n00:04:55,303 --> 00:05:22,695\n該做的還是要做那再來就是說公務基金我覺得該編組你們就是要把它編組不要再去挪用不要再去挪用那個救安基金救安基金可能有它更大的一個功能花蓉我想跟你說救安基金確實對我們很多勞工不管是就業不管是很多的勞工的福祉非常非常重要我們為什麼現在希望做出一個更嚴格的管理規範的原因是因為我們真的不希望救安基金再被外界誤解\n\n15\n00:05:23,255 --> 00:05:42,823\n或者是被外界某種汙名化過去可能有些爭議但是我們就徹底的檢討了所以希望未來救安基金的使用它就是能夠讓大家覺得清清楚楚回到正軌那該能夠拿來幫助勞工的我們其實就好好的來去使用讓他能夠幫助勞工勞工也不用覺得這個錢好像是來自救安基金就會覺得\n\n16\n00:05:43,804 --> 00:06:01,762\n好像是不是來自一個不正當的地方沒有我們就在機制上面都已經改革了就是該做範定的該限制的我們就把它直接限制出來就救安基金可以使用的範圍是在哪裡我覺得你應該要把它規範得清楚就像剛剛大家講到我舉個例子就像\n\n17\n00:06:02,864 --> 00:06:19,024\n我們現在是把救安基金使用在它必須要是直接服務勞工的那些地點比方說你的救福站比方說你的訓練中心這是直接服務勞工的地方這個地方的運作你可以用救安基金我們認為這是幫助勞工有道理的\n\n18\n00:06:19,505 --> 00:06:39,004\n可是如果是我們這個可能分署或我們署裡面或我們部裡面的這些行政支出這不是直接服務勞工的我們未來就認為這個就不該使用救安基金它就該回到公務預算的編列來去做使用是不是直接服務勞工這一刀是切在這裡面的那至少我覺得這是相對清楚的一個切分\n\n19\n00:06:40,145 --> 00:06:41,145\n7224萬你們有說要用公務預算去歸電嗎目前\n\n20\n00:06:54,134 --> 00:07:21,178\n我們目前第一個還是是我們會依照審計的結果跟相關規範來做那用公務預算編列來規定是過去被判定修正檢列追回的時候的方法之一但具體的做法我們當然還是可以來跟行政院主計包括跟審計來討論可是過去公務預算規定確實是做法之一那如果說這個立法院這邊如果又不同意的話那你們怎麼辦\n\n21\n00:07:24,037 --> 00:07:45,967\n我們當然還是希望盡量的說明因為就目前審計的潘修正簡列裡面的話某個部分他的要去救安基金追回跟簡列其實第一個你還是會需要一些這個經費的來源所以我們也只能先盡量的說明但具體的做法我們會跟行政院這邊再做討論\n\n22\n00:07:46,547 --> 00:08:07,028\n好那另外我想請教部長就是說你們在4月7號有宣布一個多元陪伴照顧服務事辦計畫4月7號開始正式上路那我看到你們的那個服務這個計畫是只有編列35名的這個看護\n\n23\n00:08:08,650 --> 00:08:36,668\n那整個這個服務的這個金額就是24小時然後是落在2600到3500這中間那這個跟一般的這個可能移工的那個薪資可能一般人如果他在請那個移工的話其實可能薪資可能沒有那麼高那如果說申請那個台籍的看護的話薪資是差不多的再更高\n\n24\n00:08:37,709 --> 00:09:02,645\n其實是差不多的24小時差不多3000多啦3000多差不多也是落在這個中間我跟黃委員說明這個計畫確實現在是一個小規模的事辦計畫那當然相關的規定也好收費也好未來當然都還可以滾動的檢討來討論但是這個計畫有一個很重要的地方是它其實目前設定的主要是針對\n\n25\n00:09:03,706 --> 00:09:23,311\n那些臨時短期緊急的需求那可是如果在目前在自費市場上面如果是看到這些臨時短期緊急的話他可能他的收費會再比長時間再來的更高一點所以我們主要是目前是設定在這比方說會有一些他從醫院出院他還來不及接上長照\n\n26\n00:09:23,931 --> 00:09:53,246\n或者從醫院出院他的失能狀態還沒有辦法很清楚的判定沒有辦法申請到相關的這些長照的資源的他可以用這個計劃來做短期的銜接那這是主要的目的但我知道大家外界目前對價格的部分會再做一些討論我覺得你們可能要再做一些參考就是說參考其他的可能要去討論一下有時候訂這個價格下去我覺得可能\n\n27\n00:09:53,806 --> 00:10:17,018\n如果訂的太高我們一般的那種家庭是不是有辦法負荷那也許可能會造成其他的排擠啦我覺得說這個價格我覺得應該可以再去做一個討論那另外就是說你們4月1號開始試辦那你們預計是要試辦多久目前是試辦23年對多久\n\n28\n00:10:23,310 --> 00:10:26,639\n三年那你們多久會檢討一次我們應該\n\n29\n00:10:29,912 --> 00:10:59,000\n半年我們就會檢討半年會檢討一次因為我看你們其實規模也很小啊只有編列35名的開幕對它其實是一個小規模就很小我不知道說到底會有多少人來跟你們申請就是多少人會來申請這個我覺得會存疑耶目前六家的機構是有一些相關的其實已經來做申請了這樣子就是從4月7號開始已經有一些來陸陸續續來申請了但確實他們都會有一些他們特定的需求就是剛才說臨時短期緊急的一些需求是\n\n30\n00:10:59,580 --> 00:11:07,826\n好那我希望就是說半年後如果你們檢討完之後也可以讓我們知道就是說它到底成效是怎樣好沒問題好謝謝好謝謝謝謝方委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1452\t1873\t謝謝主席 我們請部長\n11428\t31206\t部長好 今天就勞動部的這個救安基金違規使用的部分那我是希望未來不要再有這樣類似的狀況那針對這個之前這個基金使用不當的這樣的一個狀況那我想請教就是說我們這個\n33268\t50811\t原本我們用救安基金好去從事可能就媒體文宣或者是購買一些紀念品那原本這個應該也許我看到主計好像這個是不是說原本應該是要在公務預算裡面的\n51852\t80454\t那後來你們是用這個救安基金用救安基金來使用是審計會觀念不高那未來譬如說你們今年或者是明年原本一些媒宣這個文宣的這個部分啊或者是你們可能這個勞工的一些可能辦什麼樣的比賽那可能原本都用救安基金那你們未來如果這個救安基金不符合\n81174\t108327\t這樣的一個規定的話那你們要怎麼去用公務預算那公務預算如果你們又編不足的話那你們這些業務要怎麼執行跟黃委員說明其實勞動部一直長期以來我們都有公務預算編列不足的狀況那這部分當然我們現在也跟主計跟行政院希望能夠合理的爭取至少在其他部會他們\n109568\t131467\t用公務預算的部分請也讓我們是可以編在公務預算裡面不然我們過去其實常常我們的公務預算的規模反而是縮減的那才會變成說有一些業務的項目會變成是用救安基金來使用那就會衍生產生爭議的問題所以第一個我們其實在救安基金的改革裡面第一個開宗明義就是說希望能夠合理的爭取編列公務預算這是第一點\n132208\t143473\t那第二點是我們也檢討了雖然剛才包括很謝謝這個審計部其實給我們的一些指導那我們會完全遵照審計的指導來進行可是我們自己也做了內部的檢討這個內部的檢討包括\n147267\t175790\t我們自己確實認為這裡面會有一些管理機制不夠的問題所以我們也提出來了這個救安基金的強化管理的策進的方案也有部分我必須坦承說我自己覺得也有某些業務的執行可能有過於鋪張或者是效益不佳的問題我們也提出相關的檢討那剛剛很多委員也講到關於開口契約的問題我們其實也把相關的開口契約在去年12月的時候就直接完全的停下來了\n177051\t198226\t也就是現在我們的開口契約不能夠再像過去這樣子的使用它的範圍這麼樣子可能彈性過大的狀況會不容易管理或不容易範定所以這些機制面的改革跟改進我們現在都在進行中而且已經改進了這部分就是希望要避免剛剛黃媛講的\n199907\t219022\t未來再發生類似的事情我想其實這大家都不樂意見到所以我們用機制的方法用制度的方法來去杜絕過去可能大家不樂見看到的這些爭議這是我想這一段時間我們跟很多公務我們部裡面公務的同仁很努力的一個方向那現在也很有成果了\n219602\t239970\t好那我們當然就是說不希望有再有類似這樣的狀況可是先決條件就是說你原本需要做的一些業務你可能就要在公務預算你就要把它編制要不然你變成說你公務預算你沒有錢那你當然就是說救安基金就類似一個小金庫那我可以可以從那邊這個用預算來來\n243411\t257783\t支付 然後可能你們辦一些活動我之前有參加過我們勞動部辦的勞工的歌唱比賽我有去看 我沒有唱啦 我有去看啦我覺得這對勞工來說 很多勞工他們是真的非常喜歡唱歌\n265790\t294003\t這真的這個不是只有勞工是所有人應該都很喜歡唱歌啦而且如果又有一個舞台的話其實對勞工來講他們是非常開心的那我覺得說那如果說未來當然我覺得救安基金後面已經被弄得好像有點就是說你們如果沒有用在正當的這個活動上面或正當的業務上面可能就會會讓人家詬病嘛那我覺得如果未來\n295303\t322695\t該做的還是要做那再來就是說公務基金我覺得該編組你們就是要把它編組不要再去挪用不要再去挪用那個救安基金救安基金可能有它更大的一個功能花蓉我想跟你說救安基金確實對我們很多勞工不管是就業不管是很多的勞工的福祉非常非常重要我們為什麼現在希望做出一個更嚴格的管理規範的原因是因為我們真的不希望救安基金再被外界誤解\n323255\t342823\t或者是被外界某種汙名化過去可能有些爭議但是我們就徹底的檢討了所以希望未來救安基金的使用它就是能夠讓大家覺得清清楚楚回到正軌那該能夠拿來幫助勞工的我們其實就好好的來去使用讓他能夠幫助勞工勞工也不用覺得這個錢好像是來自救安基金就會覺得\n343804\t361762\t好像是不是來自一個不正當的地方沒有我們就在機制上面都已經改革了就是該做範定的該限制的我們就把它直接限制出來就救安基金可以使用的範圍是在哪裡我覺得你應該要把它規範得清楚就像剛剛大家講到我舉個例子就像\n362864\t379024\t我們現在是把救安基金使用在它必須要是直接服務勞工的那些地點比方說你的救福站比方說你的訓練中心這是直接服務勞工的地方這個地方的運作你可以用救安基金我們認為這是幫助勞工有道理的\n379505\t399004\t可是如果是我們這個可能分署或我們署裡面或我們部裡面的這些行政支出這不是直接服務勞工的我們未來就認為這個就不該使用救安基金它就該回到公務預算的編列來去做使用是不是直接服務勞工這一刀是切在這裡面的那至少我覺得這是相對清楚的一個切分\n400145\t401145\t7224萬你們有說要用公務預算去歸電嗎目前\n414134\t441178\t我們目前第一個還是是我們會依照審計的結果跟相關規範來做那用公務預算編列來規定是過去被判定修正檢列追回的時候的方法之一但具體的做法我們當然還是可以來跟行政院主計包括跟審計來討論可是過去公務預算規定確實是做法之一那如果說這個立法院這邊如果又不同意的話那你們怎麼辦\n444037\t465967\t我們當然還是希望盡量的說明因為就目前審計的潘修正簡列裡面的話某個部分他的要去救安基金追回跟簡列其實第一個你還是會需要一些這個經費的來源所以我們也只能先盡量的說明但具體的做法我們會跟行政院這邊再做討論\n466547\t487028\t好那另外我想請教部長就是說你們在4月7號有宣布一個多元陪伴照顧服務事辦計畫4月7號開始正式上路那我看到你們的那個服務這個計畫是只有編列35名的這個看護\n488650\t516668\t那整個這個服務的這個金額就是24小時然後是落在2600到3500這中間那這個跟一般的這個可能移工的那個薪資可能一般人如果他在請那個移工的話其實可能薪資可能沒有那麼高那如果說申請那個台籍的看護的話薪資是差不多的再更高\n517709\t542645\t其實是差不多的24小時差不多3000多啦3000多差不多也是落在這個中間我跟黃委員說明這個計畫確實現在是一個小規模的事辦計畫那當然相關的規定也好收費也好未來當然都還可以滾動的檢討來討論但是這個計畫有一個很重要的地方是它其實目前設定的主要是針對\n543706\t563311\t那些臨時短期緊急的需求那可是如果在目前在自費市場上面如果是看到這些臨時短期緊急的話他可能他的收費會再比長時間再來的更高一點所以我們主要是目前是設定在這比方說會有一些他從醫院出院他還來不及接上長照\n563931\t593246\t或者從醫院出院他的失能狀態還沒有辦法很清楚的判定沒有辦法申請到相關的這些長照的資源的他可以用這個計劃來做短期的銜接那這是主要的目的但我知道大家外界目前對價格的部分會再做一些討論我覺得你們可能要再做一些參考就是說參考其他的可能要去討論一下有時候訂這個價格下去我覺得可能\n593806\t617018\t如果訂的太高我們一般的那種家庭是不是有辦法負荷那也許可能會造成其他的排擠啦我覺得說這個價格我覺得應該可以再去做一個討論那另外就是說你們4月1號開始試辦那你們預計是要試辦多久目前是試辦23年 對多久\n623310\t626639\t三年那你們多久會檢討一次我們應該\n629912\t659000\t半年我們就會檢討半年會檢討一次因為我看你們其實規模也很小啊只有編列35名的開幕對它其實是一個小規模就很小我不知道說到底會有多少人來跟你們申請就是多少人會來申請這個我覺得會存疑耶目前六家的機構是有一些相關的其實已經來做申請了這樣子就是從4月7號開始已經有一些來陸陸續續來申請了但確實他們都會有一些他們特定的需求就是剛才說臨時短期緊急的一些需求是\n659580\t667826\t好那我希望就是說半年後如果你們檢討完之後也可以讓我們知道就是說它到底成效是怎樣好沒問題好謝謝好謝謝謝謝方委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們請部長\n部長好 今天就勞動部的這個救安基金違規使用的部分那我是希望未來不要再有這樣類似的狀況那針對這個之前這個基金使用不當的這樣的一個狀況那我想請教就是說我們這個\n原本我們用救安基金好去從事可能就媒體文宣或者是購買一些紀念品那原本這個應該也許我看到主計好像這個是不是說原本應該是要在公務預算裡面的\n那後來你們是用這個救安基金用救安基金來使用是審計會觀念不高那未來譬如說你們今年或者是明年原本一些媒宣這個文宣的這個部分啊或者是你們可能這個勞工的一些可能辦什麼樣的比賽那可能原本都用救安基金那你們未來如果這個救安基金不符合\n這樣的一個規定的話那你們要怎麼去用公務預算那公務預算如果你們又編不足的話那你們這些業務要怎麼執行跟黃委員說明其實勞動部一直長期以來我們都有公務預算編列不足的狀況那這部分當然我們現在也跟主計跟行政院希望能夠合理的爭取至少在其他部會他們\n用公務預算的部分請也讓我們是可以編在公務預算裡面不然我們過去其實常常我們的公務預算的規模反而是縮減的那才會變成說有一些業務的項目會變成是用救安基金來使用那就會衍生產生爭議的問題所以第一個我們其實在救安基金的改革裡面第一個開宗明義就是說希望能夠合理的爭取編列公務預算這是第一點\n那第二點是我們也檢討了雖然剛才包括很謝謝這個審計部其實給我們的一些指導那我們會完全遵照審計的指導來進行可是我們自己也做了內部的檢討這個內部的檢討包括\n我們自己確實認為這裡面會有一些管理機制不夠的問題所以我們也提出來了這個救安基金的強化管理的策進的方案也有部分我必須坦承說我自己覺得也有某些業務的執行可能有過於鋪張或者是效益不佳的問題我們也提出相關的檢討那剛剛很多委員也講到關於開口契約的問題我們其實也把相關的開口契約在去年12月的時候就直接完全的停下來了\n也就是現在我們的開口契約不能夠再像過去這樣子的使用它的範圍這麼樣子可能彈性過大的狀況會不容易管理或不容易範定所以這些機制面的改革跟改進我們現在都在進行中而且已經改進了這部分就是希望要避免剛剛黃媛講的\n未來再發生類似的事情我想其實這大家都不樂意見到所以我們用機制的方法用制度的方法來去杜絕過去可能大家不樂見看到的這些爭議這是我想這一段時間我們跟很多公務我們部裡面公務的同仁很努力的一個方向那現在也很有成果了\n好那我們當然就是說不希望有再有類似這樣的狀況可是先決條件就是說你原本需要做的一些業務你可能就要在公務預算你就要把它編制要不然你變成說你公務預算你沒有錢那你當然就是說救安基金就類似一個小金庫那我可以可以從那邊這個用預算來來\n支付 然後可能你們辦一些活動我之前有參加過我們勞動部辦的勞工的歌唱比賽我有去看 我沒有唱啦 我有去看啦我覺得這對勞工來說 很多勞工他們是真的非常喜歡唱歌\n這真的這個不是只有勞工是所有人應該都很喜歡唱歌啦而且如果又有一個舞台的話其實對勞工來講他們是非常開心的那我覺得說那如果說未來當然我覺得救安基金後面已經被弄得好像有點就是說你們如果沒有用在正當的這個活動上面或正當的業務上面可能就會會讓人家詬病嘛那我覺得如果未來\n該做的還是要做那再來就是說公務基金我覺得該編組你們就是要把它編組不要再去挪用不要再去挪用那個救安基金救安基金可能有它更大的一個功能花蓉我想跟你說救安基金確實對我們很多勞工不管是就業不管是很多的勞工的福祉非常非常重要我們為什麼現在希望做出一個更嚴格的管理規範的原因是因為我們真的不希望救安基金再被外界誤解\n或者是被外界某種汙名化過去可能有些爭議但是我們就徹底的檢討了所以希望未來救安基金的使用它就是能夠讓大家覺得清清楚楚回到正軌那該能夠拿來幫助勞工的我們其實就好好的來去使用讓他能夠幫助勞工勞工也不用覺得這個錢好像是來自救安基金就會覺得\n好像是不是來自一個不正當的地方沒有我們就在機制上面都已經改革了就是該做範定的該限制的我們就把它直接限制出來就救安基金可以使用的範圍是在哪裡我覺得你應該要把它規範得清楚就像剛剛大家講到我舉個例子就像\n我們現在是把救安基金使用在它必須要是直接服務勞工的那些地點比方說你的救福站比方說你的訓練中心這是直接服務勞工的地方這個地方的運作你可以用救安基金我們認為這是幫助勞工有道理的\n可是如果是我們這個可能分署或我們署裡面或我們部裡面的這些行政支出這不是直接服務勞工的我們未來就認為這個就不該使用救安基金它就該回到公務預算的編列來去做使用是不是直接服務勞工這一刀是切在這裡面的那至少我覺得這是相對清楚的一個切分\n7224萬你們有說要用公務預算去歸電嗎目前\n我們目前第一個還是是我們會依照審計的結果跟相關規範來做那用公務預算編列來規定是過去被判定修正檢列追回的時候的方法之一但具體的做法我們當然還是可以來跟行政院主計包括跟審計來討論可是過去公務預算規定確實是做法之一那如果說這個立法院這邊如果又不同意的話那你們怎麼辦\n我們當然還是希望盡量的說明因為就目前審計的潘修正簡列裡面的話某個部分他的要去救安基金追回跟簡列其實第一個你還是會需要一些這個經費的來源所以我們也只能先盡量的說明但具體的做法我們會跟行政院這邊再做討論\n好那另外我想請教部長就是說你們在4月7號有宣布一個多元陪伴照顧服務事辦計畫4月7號開始正式上路那我看到你們的那個服務這個計畫是只有編列35名的這個看護\n那整個這個服務的這個金額就是24小時然後是落在2600到3500這中間那這個跟一般的這個可能移工的那個薪資可能一般人如果他在請那個移工的話其實可能薪資可能沒有那麼高那如果說申請那個台籍的看護的話薪資是差不多的再更高\n其實是差不多的24小時差不多3000多啦3000多差不多也是落在這個中間我跟黃委員說明這個計畫確實現在是一個小規模的事辦計畫那當然相關的規定也好收費也好未來當然都還可以滾動的檢討來討論但是這個計畫有一個很重要的地方是它其實目前設定的主要是針對\n那些臨時短期緊急的需求那可是如果在目前在自費市場上面如果是看到這些臨時短期緊急的話他可能他的收費會再比長時間再來的更高一點所以我們主要是目前是設定在這比方說會有一些他從醫院出院他還來不及接上長照\n或者從醫院出院他的失能狀態還沒有辦法很清楚的判定沒有辦法申請到相關的這些長照的資源的他可以用這個計劃來做短期的銜接那這是主要的目的但我知道大家外界目前對價格的部分會再做一些討論我覺得你們可能要再做一些參考就是說參考其他的可能要去討論一下有時候訂這個價格下去我覺得可能\n如果訂的太高我們一般的那種家庭是不是有辦法負荷那也許可能會造成其他的排擠啦我覺得說這個價格我覺得應該可以再去做一個討論那另外就是說你們4月1號開始試辦那你們預計是要試辦多久目前是試辦23年 對多久\n三年那你們多久會檢討一次我們應該\n半年我們就會檢討半年會檢討一次因為我看你們其實規模也很小啊只有編列35名的開幕對它其實是一個小規模就很小我不知道說到底會有多少人來跟你們申請就是多少人會來申請這個我覺得會存疑耶目前六家的機構是有一些相關的其實已經來做申請了這樣子就是從4月7號開始已經有一些來陸陸續續來申請了但確實他們都會有一些他們特定的需求就是剛才說臨時短期緊急的一些需求是\n好那我希望就是說半年後如果你們檢討完之後也可以讓我們知道就是說它到底成效是怎樣好沒問題好謝謝好謝謝謝謝方委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.452 --> 00:01.873\n謝謝主席我們請部長\n\n00:11.428 --> 00:31.206\n部長好今天就勞動部的這個救安基金違規使用的部分那我是希望未來不要再有這樣類似的狀況那針對這個之前這個基金使用不當的這樣的一個狀況那我想請教就是說我們這個\n\n00:33.268 --> 00:50.811\n原本我們用救安基金好去從事可能就媒體文宣或者是購買一些紀念品那原本這個應該也許我看到主計好像這個是不是說原本應該是要在公務預算裡面的\n\n00:51.852 --> 01:20.454\n那後來你們是用這個救安基金用救安基金來使用是審計會觀念不高那未來譬如說你們今年或者是明年原本一些媒宣這個文宣的這個部分啊或者是你們可能這個勞工的一些可能辦什麼樣的比賽那可能原本都用救安基金那你們未來如果這個救安基金不符合\n\n01:21.174 --> 01:48.327\n這樣的一個規定的話那你們要怎麼去用公務預算那公務預算如果你們又編不足的話那你們這些業務要怎麼執行跟黃委員說明其實勞動部一直長期以來我們都有公務預算編列不足的狀況那這部分當然我們現在也跟主計跟行政院希望能夠合理的爭取至少在其他部會他們\n\n01:49.568 --> 02:11.467\n用公務預算的部分請也讓我們是可以編在公務預算裡面不然我們過去其實常常我們的公務預算的規模反而是縮減的那才會變成說有一些業務的項目會變成是用救安基金來使用那就會衍生產生爭議的問題所以第一個我們其實在救安基金的改革裡面第一個開宗明義就是說希望能夠合理的爭取編列公務預算這是第一點\n\n02:12.208 --> 02:23.473\n那第二點是我們也檢討了雖然剛才包括很謝謝這個審計部其實給我們的一些指導那我們會完全遵照審計的指導來進行可是我們自己也做了內部的檢討這個內部的檢討包括\n\n02:27.267 --> 02:55.790\n我們自己確實認為這裡面會有一些管理機制不夠的問題所以我們也提出來了這個救安基金的強化管理的策進的方案也有部分我必須坦承說我自己覺得也有某些業務的執行可能有過於鋪張或者是效益不佳的問題我們也提出相關的檢討那剛剛很多委員也講到關於開口契約的問題我們其實也把相關的開口契約在去年12月的時候就直接完全的停下來了\n\n02:57.051 --> 03:18.226\n也就是現在我們的開口契約不能夠再像過去這樣子的使用它的範圍這麼樣子可能彈性過大的狀況會不容易管理或不容易範定所以這些機制面的改革跟改進我們現在都在進行中而且已經改進了這部分就是希望要避免剛剛黃媛講的\n\n03:19.907 --> 03:39.022\n未來再發生類似的事情我想其實這大家都不樂意見到所以我們用機制的方法用制度的方法來去杜絕過去可能大家不樂見看到的這些爭議這是我想這一段時間我們跟很多公務我們部裡面公務的同仁很努力的一個方向那現在也很有成果了\n\n03:39.602 --> 03:59.970\n好那我們當然就是說不希望有再有類似這樣的狀況可是先決條件就是說你原本需要做的一些業務你可能就要在公務預算你就要把它編制要不然你變成說你公務預算你沒有錢那你當然就是說救安基金就類似一個小金庫那我可以可以從那邊這個用預算來來\n\n04:03.411 --> 04:17.783\n支付然後可能你們辦一些活動我之前有參加過我們勞動部辦的勞工的歌唱比賽我有去看我沒有唱啦我有去看啦我覺得這對勞工來說很多勞工他們是真的非常喜歡唱歌\n\n04:25.790 --> 04:54.003\n這真的這個不是只有勞工是所有人應該都很喜歡唱歌啦而且如果又有一個舞台的話其實對勞工來講他們是非常開心的那我覺得說那如果說未來當然我覺得救安基金後面已經被弄得好像有點就是說你們如果沒有用在正當的這個活動上面或正當的業務上面可能就會會讓人家詬病嘛那我覺得如果未來\n\n04:55.303 --> 05:22.695\n該做的還是要做那再來就是說公務基金我覺得該編組你們就是要把它編組不要再去挪用不要再去挪用那個救安基金救安基金可能有它更大的一個功能花蓉我想跟你說救安基金確實對我們很多勞工不管是就業不管是很多的勞工的福祉非常非常重要我們為什麼現在希望做出一個更嚴格的管理規範的原因是因為我們真的不希望救安基金再被外界誤解\n\n05:23.255 --> 05:42.823\n或者是被外界某種汙名化過去可能有些爭議但是我們就徹底的檢討了所以希望未來救安基金的使用它就是能夠讓大家覺得清清楚楚回到正軌那該能夠拿來幫助勞工的我們其實就好好的來去使用讓他能夠幫助勞工勞工也不用覺得這個錢好像是來自救安基金就會覺得\n\n05:43.804 --> 06:01.762\n好像是不是來自一個不正當的地方沒有我們就在機制上面都已經改革了就是該做範定的該限制的我們就把它直接限制出來就救安基金可以使用的範圍是在哪裡我覺得你應該要把它規範得清楚就像剛剛大家講到我舉個例子就像\n\n06:02.864 --> 06:19.024\n我們現在是把救安基金使用在它必須要是直接服務勞工的那些地點比方說你的救福站比方說你的訓練中心這是直接服務勞工的地方這個地方的運作你可以用救安基金我們認為這是幫助勞工有道理的\n\n06:19.505 --> 06:39.004\n可是如果是我們這個可能分署或我們署裡面或我們部裡面的這些行政支出這不是直接服務勞工的我們未來就認為這個就不該使用救安基金它就該回到公務預算的編列來去做使用是不是直接服務勞工這一刀是切在這裡面的那至少我覺得這是相對清楚的一個切分\n\n06:40.145 --> 06:41.145\n7224萬你們有說要用公務預算去歸電嗎目前\n\n06:54.134 --> 07:21.178\n我們目前第一個還是是我們會依照審計的結果跟相關規範來做那用公務預算編列來規定是過去被判定修正檢列追回的時候的方法之一但具體的做法我們當然還是可以來跟行政院主計包括跟審計來討論可是過去公務預算規定確實是做法之一那如果說這個立法院這邊如果又不同意的話那你們怎麼辦\n\n07:24.037 --> 07:45.967\n我們當然還是希望盡量的說明因為就目前審計的潘修正簡列裡面的話某個部分他的要去救安基金追回跟簡列其實第一個你還是會需要一些這個經費的來源所以我們也只能先盡量的說明但具體的做法我們會跟行政院這邊再做討論\n\n07:46.547 --> 08:07.028\n好那另外我想請教部長就是說你們在4月7號有宣布一個多元陪伴照顧服務事辦計畫4月7號開始正式上路那我看到你們的那個服務這個計畫是只有編列35名的這個看護\n\n08:08.650 --> 08:36.668\n那整個這個服務的這個金額就是24小時然後是落在2600到3500這中間那這個跟一般的這個可能移工的那個薪資可能一般人如果他在請那個移工的話其實可能薪資可能沒有那麼高那如果說申請那個台籍的看護的話薪資是差不多的再更高\n\n08:37.709 --> 09:02.645\n其實是差不多的24小時差不多3000多啦3000多差不多也是落在這個中間我跟黃委員說明這個計畫確實現在是一個小規模的事辦計畫那當然相關的規定也好收費也好未來當然都還可以滾動的檢討來討論但是這個計畫有一個很重要的地方是它其實目前設定的主要是針對\n\n09:03.706 --> 09:23.311\n那些臨時短期緊急的需求那可是如果在目前在自費市場上面如果是看到這些臨時短期緊急的話他可能他的收費會再比長時間再來的更高一點所以我們主要是目前是設定在這比方說會有一些他從醫院出院他還來不及接上長照\n\n09:23.931 --> 09:53.246\n或者從醫院出院他的失能狀態還沒有辦法很清楚的判定沒有辦法申請到相關的這些長照的資源的他可以用這個計劃來做短期的銜接那這是主要的目的但我知道大家外界目前對價格的部分會再做一些討論我覺得你們可能要再做一些參考就是說參考其他的可能要去討論一下有時候訂這個價格下去我覺得可能\n\n09:53.806 --> 10:17.018\n如果訂的太高我們一般的那種家庭是不是有辦法負荷那也許可能會造成其他的排擠啦我覺得說這個價格我覺得應該可以再去做一個討論那另外就是說你們4月1號開始試辦那你們預計是要試辦多久目前是試辦23年對多久\n\n10:23.310 --> 10:26.639\n三年那你們多久會檢討一次我們應該\n\n10:29.912 --> 10:59.000\n半年我們就會檢討半年會檢討一次因為我看你們其實規模也很小啊只有編列35名的開幕對它其實是一個小規模就很小我不知道說到底會有多少人來跟你們申請就是多少人會來申請這個我覺得會存疑耶目前六家的機構是有一些相關的其實已經來做申請了這樣子就是從4月7號開始已經有一些來陸陸續續來申請了但確實他們都會有一些他們特定的需求就是剛才說臨時短期緊急的一些需求是\n\n10:59.580 --> 11:07.826\n好那我希望就是說半年後如果你們檢討完之後也可以讓我們知道就是說它到底成效是怎樣好沒問題好謝謝好謝謝謝謝方委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.452,"end":1.873,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請部長"},{"start":11.428,"end":31.206,"text":"部長好 今天就勞動部的這個救安基金違規使用的部分那我是希望未來不要再有這樣類似的狀況那針對這個之前這個基金使用不當的這樣的一個狀況那我想請教就是說我們這個"},{"start":33.268,"end":50.811,"text":"原本我們用救安基金好去從事可能就媒體文宣或者是購買一些紀念品那原本這個應該也許我看到主計好像這個是不是說原本應該是要在公務預算裡面的"},{"start":51.852,"end":80.454,"text":"那後來你們是用這個救安基金用救安基金來使用是審計會觀念不高那未來譬如說你們今年或者是明年原本一些媒宣這個文宣的這個部分啊或者是你們可能這個勞工的一些可能辦什麼樣的比賽那可能原本都用救安基金那你們未來如果這個救安基金不符合"},{"start":81.174,"end":108.327,"text":"這樣的一個規定的話那你們要怎麼去用公務預算那公務預算如果你們又編不足的話那你們這些業務要怎麼執行跟黃委員說明其實勞動部一直長期以來我們都有公務預算編列不足的狀況那這部分當然我們現在也跟主計跟行政院希望能夠合理的爭取至少在其他部會他們"},{"start":109.568,"end":131.467,"text":"用公務預算的部分請也讓我們是可以編在公務預算裡面不然我們過去其實常常我們的公務預算的規模反而是縮減的那才會變成說有一些業務的項目會變成是用救安基金來使用那就會衍生產生爭議的問題所以第一個我們其實在救安基金的改革裡面第一個開宗明義就是說希望能夠合理的爭取編列公務預算這是第一點"},{"start":132.208,"end":143.473,"text":"那第二點是我們也檢討了雖然剛才包括很謝謝這個審計部其實給我們的一些指導那我們會完全遵照審計的指導來進行可是我們自己也做了內部的檢討這個內部的檢討包括"},{"start":147.267,"end":175.79,"text":"我們自己確實認為這裡面會有一些管理機制不夠的問題所以我們也提出來了這個救安基金的強化管理的策進的方案也有部分我必須坦承說我自己覺得也有某些業務的執行可能有過於鋪張或者是效益不佳的問題我們也提出相關的檢討那剛剛很多委員也講到關於開口契約的問題我們其實也把相關的開口契約在去年12月的時候就直接完全的停下來了"},{"start":177.051,"end":198.226,"text":"也就是現在我們的開口契約不能夠再像過去這樣子的使用它的範圍這麼樣子可能彈性過大的狀況會不容易管理或不容易範定所以這些機制面的改革跟改進我們現在都在進行中而且已經改進了這部分就是希望要避免剛剛黃媛講的"},{"start":199.907,"end":219.022,"text":"未來再發生類似的事情我想其實這大家都不樂意見到所以我們用機制的方法用制度的方法來去杜絕過去可能大家不樂見看到的這些爭議這是我想這一段時間我們跟很多公務我們部裡面公務的同仁很努力的一個方向那現在也很有成果了"},{"start":219.602,"end":239.97,"text":"好那我們當然就是說不希望有再有類似這樣的狀況可是先決條件就是說你原本需要做的一些業務你可能就要在公務預算你就要把它編制要不然你變成說你公務預算你沒有錢那你當然就是說救安基金就類似一個小金庫那我可以可以從那邊這個用預算來來"},{"start":243.411,"end":257.783,"text":"支付 然後可能你們辦一些活動我之前有參加過我們勞動部辦的勞工的歌唱比賽我有去看 我沒有唱啦 我有去看啦我覺得這對勞工來說 很多勞工他們是真的非常喜歡唱歌"},{"start":265.79,"end":294.003,"text":"這真的這個不是只有勞工是所有人應該都很喜歡唱歌啦而且如果又有一個舞台的話其實對勞工來講他們是非常開心的那我覺得說那如果說未來當然我覺得救安基金後面已經被弄得好像有點就是說你們如果沒有用在正當的這個活動上面或正當的業務上面可能就會會讓人家詬病嘛那我覺得如果未來"},{"start":295.303,"end":322.695,"text":"該做的還是要做那再來就是說公務基金我覺得該編組你們就是要把它編組不要再去挪用不要再去挪用那個救安基金救安基金可能有它更大的一個功能花蓉我想跟你說救安基金確實對我們很多勞工不管是就業不管是很多的勞工的福祉非常非常重要我們為什麼現在希望做出一個更嚴格的管理規範的原因是因為我們真的不希望救安基金再被外界誤解"},{"start":323.255,"end":342.823,"text":"或者是被外界某種汙名化過去可能有些爭議但是我們就徹底的檢討了所以希望未來救安基金的使用它就是能夠讓大家覺得清清楚楚回到正軌那該能夠拿來幫助勞工的我們其實就好好的來去使用讓他能夠幫助勞工勞工也不用覺得這個錢好像是來自救安基金就會覺得"},{"start":343.804,"end":361.762,"text":"好像是不是來自一個不正當的地方沒有我們就在機制上面都已經改革了就是該做範定的該限制的我們就把它直接限制出來就救安基金可以使用的範圍是在哪裡我覺得你應該要把它規範得清楚就像剛剛大家講到我舉個例子就像"},{"start":362.864,"end":379.024,"text":"我們現在是把救安基金使用在它必須要是直接服務勞工的那些地點比方說你的救福站比方說你的訓練中心這是直接服務勞工的地方這個地方的運作你可以用救安基金我們認為這是幫助勞工有道理的"},{"start":379.505,"end":399.004,"text":"可是如果是我們這個可能分署或我們署裡面或我們部裡面的這些行政支出這不是直接服務勞工的我們未來就認為這個就不該使用救安基金它就該回到公務預算的編列來去做使用是不是直接服務勞工這一刀是切在這裡面的那至少我覺得這是相對清楚的一個切分"},{"start":400.145,"end":401.145,"text":"7224萬你們有說要用公務預算去歸電嗎目前"},{"start":414.134,"end":441.178,"text":"我們目前第一個還是是我們會依照審計的結果跟相關規範來做那用公務預算編列來規定是過去被判定修正檢列追回的時候的方法之一但具體的做法我們當然還是可以來跟行政院主計包括跟審計來討論可是過去公務預算規定確實是做法之一那如果說這個立法院這邊如果又不同意的話那你們怎麼辦"},{"start":444.037,"end":465.967,"text":"我們當然還是希望盡量的說明因為就目前審計的潘修正簡列裡面的話某個部分他的要去救安基金追回跟簡列其實第一個你還是會需要一些這個經費的來源所以我們也只能先盡量的說明但具體的做法我們會跟行政院這邊再做討論"},{"start":466.547,"end":487.028,"text":"好那另外我想請教部長就是說你們在4月7號有宣布一個多元陪伴照顧服務事辦計畫4月7號開始正式上路那我看到你們的那個服務這個計畫是只有編列35名的這個看護"},{"start":488.65,"end":516.668,"text":"那整個這個服務的這個金額就是24小時然後是落在2600到3500這中間那這個跟一般的這個可能移工的那個薪資可能一般人如果他在請那個移工的話其實可能薪資可能沒有那麼高那如果說申請那個台籍的看護的話薪資是差不多的再更高"},{"start":517.709,"end":542.645,"text":"其實是差不多的24小時差不多3000多啦3000多差不多也是落在這個中間我跟黃委員說明這個計畫確實現在是一個小規模的事辦計畫那當然相關的規定也好收費也好未來當然都還可以滾動的檢討來討論但是這個計畫有一個很重要的地方是它其實目前設定的主要是針對"},{"start":543.706,"end":563.311,"text":"那些臨時短期緊急的需求那可是如果在目前在自費市場上面如果是看到這些臨時短期緊急的話他可能他的收費會再比長時間再來的更高一點所以我們主要是目前是設定在這比方說會有一些他從醫院出院他還來不及接上長照"},{"start":563.931,"end":593.246,"text":"或者從醫院出院他的失能狀態還沒有辦法很清楚的判定沒有辦法申請到相關的這些長照的資源的他可以用這個計劃來做短期的銜接那這是主要的目的但我知道大家外界目前對價格的部分會再做一些討論我覺得你們可能要再做一些參考就是說參考其他的可能要去討論一下有時候訂這個價格下去我覺得可能"},{"start":593.806,"end":617.018,"text":"如果訂的太高我們一般的那種家庭是不是有辦法負荷那也許可能會造成其他的排擠啦我覺得說這個價格我覺得應該可以再去做一個討論那另外就是說你們4月1號開始試辦那你們預計是要試辦多久目前是試辦23年 對多久"},{"start":623.31,"end":626.639,"text":"三年那你們多久會檢討一次我們應該"},{"start":629.912,"end":659,"text":"半年我們就會檢討半年會檢討一次因為我看你們其實規模也很小啊只有編列35名的開幕對它其實是一個小規模就很小我不知道說到底會有多少人來跟你們申請就是多少人會來申請這個我覺得會存疑耶目前六家的機構是有一些相關的其實已經來做申請了這樣子就是從4月7號開始已經有一些來陸陸續續來申請了但確實他們都會有一些他們特定的需求就是剛才說臨時短期緊急的一些需求是"},{"start":659.58,"end":667.826,"text":"好那我希望就是說半年後如果你們檢討完之後也可以讓我們知道就是說它到底成效是怎樣好沒問題好謝謝好謝謝謝謝方委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":924,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（12時12分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["洪部長申翰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，今天就勞動部就安基金違規使用的部分，我是希望未來不要再有類似的狀況。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：針對之前基金使用不當的狀況，我想請教。你們用就安基金去從事媒體文宣或者是購買一些紀念品，審計單位是不是說原本應該要放在公務預算裡面，但後來你們是使用就安基金？"],["洪部長申翰：是，所以審計認為關聯不高。"],["黃委員秀芳：今年或者明年，你們一些媒宣、文宣的部分，或者要辦什麼樣的勞工比賽，可能原本都用就安基金，未來如果就安基金不符合規定的話，你們要怎麼去用公務預算支應？公務預算如果又編不足的話，你們這些業務要怎麼執行？"],["洪部長申翰：跟黃委員說明，其實勞動部長期以來都有公務預算編列不足的狀況，當然我們現在也跟主計跟行政院希望能夠合理地爭取！至少在其他部會用公務預算的部分，請讓我們也可以編在公務預算裡面！過去其實常常我們的公務預算規模反而是縮減的，才會有一些業務項目變成是用就安基金來使用，那就會衍生產生爭議的問題。所以第一個，我們在就安基金的改革裡面，開宗明義就說希望能夠合理地爭取編列公務預算，這是第一點。第二點，我們也檢討了，很謝謝審計部給我們的指導，我們會完全遵照審計的指導來進行，可是我們也做了內部檢討。這個內部檢討包括我們自己確實認為這裡面會有一些管理機制不夠的問題，所以我們也提出了就安基金強化管理的策進方案，我必須坦承說，我自己也覺得某些業務的執行可能有過於鋪張或者是效率不佳的問題，我們也提出相關的檢討。剛剛很多委員也講到關於開口契約的問題，其實開口契約在去年12月的時候就完全停下來了，也就是現在的開口契約不能夠再像過去那樣子使用，範圍彈性過大，會不容易管理或不容易範定，所以這些機制面的改革跟改進我們現在都在進行中，而且已經改進了這部分，就是希望避免剛剛黃委員所講的，未來再發生類似的事情，我想這個大家都不樂意見到。所以我們用機制、用制度去杜絕過去大家可能不樂見的爭議，這是這一段時間我們部裡面很多公務同仁很努力的一個方向，現在也很有成果了。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我們當然不希望再有類似的狀況，可是先決條件是原本需要做的一些業務經費，就要在公務預算編足，要不然公務預算沒有錢，讓就安基金變成小金庫，可以從那邊用預算來支付。然後你們辦的一些活動……我之前有參加過勞動部辦的勞工歌唱比賽，我有去看，但我沒有唱。對於勞工來說，很多勞工真的非常喜歡唱歌，當然不是只有勞工，所有人應該都很喜歡唱歌！如果又有一個舞臺的話，其實對勞工來講會非常開心。但就安基金後面已經被弄得好像有點……也就是說你們如果沒有用在正當的活動或正當的業務上，就會讓人家詬病！我覺得未來該做的還是要做。再來就是，公務預算該編足的你們就是要編足，不要再去挪用就安基金，就安基金可能有它更大的功能。"],["洪部長申翰：黃委員，我想跟你說明，就安基金確實對我們很多勞工來說，不管是就業，不管是很多的勞工福祉，它非常非常重要。我們現在希望做出一個更嚴格的管理規範的原因是，我們真的不希望就安基金再被外界誤解，或者是被外界某一種污名化！過去可能有一些爭議，但是我們已經澈底地檢討了！所以希望未來就安基金的使用能夠清清楚楚回到正軌，能夠拿來幫助勞工的，我們就好好地去使用，讓它能夠幫助勞工。勞工也不用因為錢來自就安基金，就覺得是不是來自不正當的地方？沒有！我們在機制上面都已經改革了，該做範定的、該限制的，我們就把它直接限制出來。"],["黃委員秀芳：就安基金可以使用的範圍在哪裡，我覺得你應該規範清楚。"],["洪部長申翰：好。我舉個例子，就像剛剛大家講到，我們現在是把就安基金使用在必須是直接服務勞工的那些地點，比方說就服站，比方說訓練中心，這是直接服務勞工的地方，這些地方的運作可以用就安基金，我們認為這些是用來幫助勞工，是有道理的。可是如果是我們的分署或署裡面或部裡面的行政支出，並不是直接服務勞工的，我們認為未來就不該使用就安基金，就該回到公務預算的編列去做使用。所以，是不是直接服務勞工這一刀是切在這裡面的，至少我覺得這是相對清楚的一個切分。"],["黃委員秀芳：我想請教，現在這7,224萬你們有說要用公務預算去歸墊？目前。"],["洪部長申翰：目前第一個，我們還是會依照審計的結果跟相關規範來做，用公務預算編列來歸墊是過去被判定修正減列追回的時候的方法之一，但具體的做法我們還是可以跟行政院主計，包括跟審計來討論，只是過去以公務預算歸墊確實是做法之一。"],["黃委員秀芳：如果立法院又不同意的話，你們怎麼辦？"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然還是希望儘量地說明，因為就目前審計判定的修正減列裡面，對於就安基金的追回跟減列，其實還是需要有一些經費來源，所以我們只能先儘量說明，但具體的做法我們會跟行政院再做討論。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。另外，我想請教部長，你們在4月7日宣布多元陪伴照顧服務試辦計畫，4月7日開始正式上路！我看到你們的服務計畫只編列35名看護，服務的金額就是24小時落在兩千六到三千五中間，跟一般移工的薪資，一般人聘請移工的薪資可能沒有那麼高，如果是申請臺籍看護的話，薪資是差不多的。"],["洪部長申翰：再更高。"],["黃委員秀芳：其實是差不多的，24小時差不多三千多，也是落在這中間。"],["洪部長申翰：我跟黃委員說明，這個計畫確實是一個小規模的試辦計畫，所以相關的規定也好，收費也好，未來當然還可以滾動的檢討來討論。但是這個計畫有一個很重要的地方是，它目前的設定主要是針對那些臨時、短期、緊急的需求，可是目前在自費市場上面，如果是看到這些臨時、短期、緊急的話，可能他的收費會比長時間再來得更高一點，所以我們目前主要是設定在這。比方說他從醫院出院還來不及接上長照，或者從醫院出院他的失能狀態還沒有辦法很清楚地判定，沒有辦法申請到相關長照資源的，他可以用這個計畫來做短期的銜接，這是主要的目的，當然我知道外界目前對價格的部分會再做一些討論。"],["黃委員秀芳：我覺得你們可能要再做一些參考，就是說參考其他的，可能要去討論一下，因為有時候價格訂下去，如果訂得太高，一般的家庭是不是有辦法負荷？也許會造成其他的排擠啦！我覺得這個價格應該可以再去做一個討論。"],["洪部長申翰：好。"],["黃委員秀芳：另外，你們在4月7日開始試辦，預計要試辦多久？"],["洪部長申翰：目前是試辦3年。"],["黃委員秀芳：多久？"],["洪部長申翰：3年。"],["黃委員秀芳：3年？你們多久會檢討一次？"],["洪部長申翰：半年我們就會檢討。"],["黃委員秀芳：半年會檢討一次？因為我看你們其實規模也很小啊！只有編列35名看護。"],["洪部長申翰：對，它其實是一個小規模……"],["黃委員秀芳：這個規模就很小，我不知道到底會有多少人來申請這個，我覺得會存疑！"],["洪部長申翰：目前的6家機構，有一些相關的其實已經來申請了，從4月7日開始，已經陸陸續續有來申請。但確實他們都會有一些特定的需求，就是剛才說臨時、短期、緊急的一些需求。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我希望半年後，如果你們檢討完之後，也可以讓我們知道到底成效是怎樣。"],["洪部長申翰：好，沒問題。"],["黃委員秀芳：好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝部長。","接續我們請陳瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","盧縣一","洪孟楷","王正旭","黃秀芳","陳瑩","劉建國","廖先翔","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱若華","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00005"}}}