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{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 625.077, \"end\": 625.157, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 625.157, \"end\": 625.177, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 625.177, \"end\": 625.197, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,114 --> 00:00:10,815\n謝謝主席陽勛發言邀請洪部長根據審計部日前報告指出針對我們就業案基金有高達7224萬元的支出它的用途跟法定的促進就業穩定勞工生活的宗旨明顯有不符\n\n2\n00:00:36,423 --> 00:00:57,236\n那該巨額款項的用途它不僅暴露出整個基金管理機制嚴重的疏失也更引發了社會大眾對於勞工權益基金是否遭到不當的一個挪用決策過程是否透明化等這些產生的疑慮那進而衝擊到勞工對政府的信任\n\n3\n00:00:57,876 --> 00:01:25,651\n其實這個安電基金老闆有出錢之後他的目的就是希望能夠將勞工的權益那麼能夠保障而且能夠穩定我們的勞動力那所以在這樣的一個情況之下呢本席要請教目前我們聽聞以及媒體報章上面據文室部長您說要編列公務預算進行規列規定是嗎\n\n4\n00:01:26,491 --> 00:01:46,028\n跟姚委員說明現在審計部的審計的結果是修正檢列並要追回那編列公務預算規定是過去如果被判定為修正檢列的時候的做法之一當然具體的做法我們也願意再跟\n\n5\n00:01:46,849 --> 00:02:09,135\n行政院跟審計部來做討論所以換句話說外面高度質疑的以公務預算明年度的預算來規定這個還沒有定案是不是我可以這麼解讀嗎我們可以來跟我是願意來跟我們願意跟行政院來討論但是勞動部我們是一個行政部門我們必須依照審計部的審計的結果\n\n6\n00:02:10,615 --> 00:02:36,654\n跟相關的規範來做後續的辦理你現在外界都認為你是要編列明年度的預算來規定這目前啦那你現在的說法這個是過去類似情境的做法之一那你現在的說法就是說你還希望能夠跟審計單位我們願意來跟行政院主計來做相關的討論這一筆錢到底要怎麼處理你現在最新的想法跟預計要怎麼做是不是如此\n\n7\n00:02:36,834 --> 00:02:57,782\n我們我們願意來跟大家討論但是都說編列公務預算規定是過去在遇到類似的相關的這個案子到目前為止你並不是一定要如此做而是還要經過討論等於可以這麼解讀我們可以來討論怎麼樣子做法能夠比較符合審計現在的這個樣子這樣子的結果但是這是做法之一\n\n8\n00:02:58,542 --> 00:03:24,788\n是之一所以我要給社會大眾了解我們也不希望社會大眾有很多疑慮也就是希望說大家好好做怎麼依法來做既然碰到了問題我們要怎麼樣去解決這個問題所以到目前為止在之前所說的本席再一次請教也就是說要用明列的公務預算來規定還沒有定案是不是可以如此的說呢這是做法之一對\n\n9\n00:03:26,570 --> 00:03:43,926\n所以不一定這麼做但我們會要來跟其實相關的單位來討論因為你現在是部長所以我們要了解目前的進度也就是還沒有決定哪一種方式是不是如此我們之前有說我們會來想要來爭取但是有說這是做法之一所以還沒有決定哪一種方式因為這個也要勞動部還沒有呈現出來嗎\n\n10\n00:03:45,767 --> 00:04:03,881\n我們之前有說我們想要爭取公務預算的規定因為這是過去遇到修正檢列並追回的時候的做法之一我們現在是要讓社會大眾了解我們政府預定要怎麼做所以現在您所提的這個是預定之一所以還沒有真正到最後決定要怎麼做是不是如此\n\n11\n00:04:05,418 --> 00:04:32,040\n我們會來討論會來討論所以還沒有決定嗎是不是還沒有定案我們可以這麼說這是我們做法預定的做法之一預定的做法之一所以你還有之二之三是不是如此因為你現在是行政部門所以還要跟相關單位來討論所以我們可以給社會大眾說之前您說的要編列明年度的預算公務預算來規定還不一定是這個方式還在討論中\n\n12\n00:04:34,382 --> 00:04:53,920\n對我們可以跟相關單位再討論你這個對我們就繼續來討論因為剛剛審計單位主計單位都有說明那麼您之前也說如果有狀況當然要配合整個司法的調查但是我們也了解到整個行政責任的釐清跟追究它畢竟會蠻長的一段時間曠日廢時\n\n13\n00:04:57,803 --> 00:05:20,244\n有很長的一個司法程序所以我還是建議也就是我們自己內部因為包括了之前發生的這個狀況審計單位也提出那可是未來在執行的這個當中我們要怎麼樣去執行那我們的內部是不是應該要去討論我們要怎麼做讓大家有所依歸請做說明\n\n14\n00:05:21,564 --> 00:05:34,573\n姚苑你講的跟我們做的是完全一樣的我們就是做了徹底的內部檢討這個徹底的內部檢討下我們其實已經把過去很多我們可能認為管理過於寬鬆\n\n15\n00:05:36,167 --> 00:05:56,049\n或者是我們在制度面機制面有問題的部分其實在今年初一月的時候就已經提出了改進跟改革的方案現在已經在執行中包括救安基金的管理的做法包括對開口企業的做法包括對宣傳品流向訂定相關的規範管理規範這些事情都已經完成\n\n16\n00:05:56,169 --> 00:06:18,050\n好把你們精進的方案請順便資料一份給本席那麼也就針對這個案子你們主動調查這個內部的行政調查嗎我們做了內部的徹底的檢討徹底的檢討那針對於確實有責任歸屬的部分呢有做處分或做整理嗎\n\n17\n00:06:19,652 --> 00:06:44,887\n關於責任歸屬當然有些部分如果責任歸屬的部分現在監察院在調查那我們完全的配合監察院完全的配合這是應當但是剛剛我們說的行政院我們所屬的勞動部是我們整個勞工非常重視的一個部門所以內部的行政調查本是認為你也應當要有內部的行政調查\n\n18\n00:06:46,629 --> 00:06:56,558\n權責歸屬應該要去理解我們其實做了徹底的內部的檢討檢討不代表你有做權責的歸屬啊關於權責的歸屬行政的歸屬的部分政務人員的行政的部分現在是由監察院跟檢調單位都在調查中\n\n19\n00:07:04,947 --> 00:07:26,593\n這就是本席剛才所說的因為司法的部分跨日會還要蠻長的時間我們也希望你內部可以去檢討的應該你可以去檢討我相信你有這個能力必須要徹底去檢討到底責任的歸屬啊也符合你未來在運用整個司法才有所依歸啊你要超前的去做嘛\n\n20\n00:07:27,173 --> 00:07:44,551\n你認同嗎是是喔是喔把你的責任歸屬給本席最後一個議題我功課給你因為全球暖化的問題我們看到呢這個夏季氣溫持續的在拉高那整個我們勞工的一個工作權的一個健康保障\n\n21\n00:07:45,191 --> 00:08:04,712\n那避免高氣溫的環境引發的熱疾病因為本席看到我們雖然有訂定危害的預防規定但是審計部給你查了2021年到2022年勞動部檢查的這個部分在戶外的失業單位違反的超過三成\n\n22\n00:08:05,333 --> 00:08:33,911\n分別是33.7度跟32.8度在這樣的情況之下你們又去檢查有193場次違規的是141場次它的違規是73%部長違規是73%所以在這樣的情況之下數字審計部已經告訴你了你要怎麼樣去調整你的熱危害的預防措施來保障整個勞工工作的安全跟健康\n\n23\n00:08:35,936 --> 00:08:54,251\n市委員其實為了熱危害大家都面臨同樣的問題那我們其實我們去年已經修了我們設施規則針對現場的戶外作業有立即危險沒有提供飲水沒有提供遮陽降溫措施我們就可以立即罰了所以你的立即罰結果審計單位告訴你是73%的你們去檢查190幾家你是141家是73%不符合不打你同意這樣子73%不符合嗎\n\n24\n00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:19,199\n報告委員過去是通知改善不改善才處罰那營燒工具的改善是比較能夠快速進行的那因為我們去年訂了這樣子比較嚴格的機制那事業單位就開始做一些改善我們有信心進來就做專案檢查讓這樣子熱危害違反的量態能夠降低\n\n25\n00:09:19,819 --> 00:09:42,155\n好部長您聽到這個說明但是給你的答案是審計單位說你們自己去檢查73%是不符合的所以針對這個議題因為生命誠可貴我們要好好照顧我們的勞工不管是這個工地方面怎麼去改善還是你們的督導我希望能夠以保障我們勞工的安全為基準\n\n26\n00:09:42,915 --> 00:10:07,120\n跟姚蕾說我其實非常關注這個問題那確實我們現在看到有一些戶外工作的業主其實對這個熱危害的觀念還不夠了解所以這裡面包括規範包括要讓大家產業界更了解這件事情我們會盡力來做這部分我們也不希望說一直罰一直罰你罰了也沒用你要讓大家有這個概念來保護我們的勞工嘛\n\n27\n00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:25,197\n罰當然是一個法規執行落實的手段但是我們不是說一定非得要靠罰可是重點是不是讓這些相關的規範能夠被落實罰是做法之一所以結果論是不滿意的73%的檢查是不合格的我們就有精進的方向好不好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8114\t10815\t謝謝主席 陽勛發言 邀請洪部長根據審計部日前報告指出針對我們就業案基金有高達7224萬元的支出它的用途跟法定的促進就業穩定勞工生活的宗旨明顯有不符\n36423\t57236\t那該巨額款項的用途它不僅暴露出整個基金管理機制嚴重的疏失也更引發了社會大眾對於勞工權益基金是否遭到不當的一個挪用決策過程是否透明化等這些產生的疑慮那進而衝擊到勞工對政府的信任\n57876\t85651\t其實這個安電基金老闆有出錢之後他的目的就是希望能夠將勞工的權益那麼能夠保障而且能夠穩定我們的勞動力那所以在這樣的一個情況之下呢本席要請教目前我們聽聞以及媒體報章上面據文室部長您說要編列公務預算進行規列規定是嗎\n86491\t106028\t跟姚委員說明現在審計部的審計的結果是修正檢列並要追回那編列公務預算規定是過去如果被判定為修正檢列的時候的做法之一當然具體的做法我們也願意再跟\n106849\t129135\t行政院跟審計部來做討論所以換句話說外面高度質疑的以公務預算明年度的預算來規定這個還沒有定案是不是我可以這麼解讀嗎我們可以來跟我是願意來跟我們願意跟行政院來討論但是勞動部我們是一個行政部門我們必須依照審計部的審計的結果\n130615\t156654\t跟相關的規範來做後續的辦理你現在外界都認為你是要編列明年度的預算來規定這目前啦那你現在的說法這個是過去類似情境的做法之一那你現在的說法就是說你還希望能夠跟審計單位我們願意來跟行政院主計來做相關的討論這一筆錢到底要怎麼處理你現在最新的想法跟預計要怎麼做是不是如此\n156834\t177782\t我們我們願意來跟大家討論但是都說編列公務預算規定是過去在遇到類似的相關的這個案子到目前為止你並不是一定要如此做而是還要經過討論等於可以這麼解讀我們可以來討論怎麼樣子做法能夠比較符合審計現在的這個樣子這樣子的結果但是這是做法之一\n178542\t204788\t是之一所以我要給社會大眾了解我們也不希望社會大眾有很多疑慮也就是希望說大家好好做怎麼依法來做既然碰到了問題我們要怎麼樣去解決這個問題所以到目前為止在之前所說的本席再一次請教也就是說要用明列的公務預算來規定還沒有定案是不是可以如此的說呢這是做法之一 對\n206570\t223926\t所以不一定這麼做但我們會要來跟其實相關的單位來討論因為你現在是部長所以我們要了解目前的進度也就是還沒有決定哪一種方式是不是如此我們之前有說我們會來想要來爭取但是有說這是做法之一所以還沒有決定哪一種方式因為這個也要勞動部還沒有呈現出來嗎\n225767\t243881\t我們之前有說我們想要爭取公務預算的規定因為這是過去遇到修正檢列並追回的時候的做法之一我們現在是要讓社會大眾了解我們政府預定要怎麼做所以現在您所提的這個是預定之一所以還沒有真正到最後決定要怎麼做是不是如此\n245418\t272040\t我們會來討論 會來討論所以還沒有決定嗎是不是還沒有定案我們可以這麼說這是我們做法預定的做法之一預定的做法之一所以你還有之二之三是不是如此因為你現在是行政部門所以還要跟相關單位來討論所以我們可以給社會大眾說之前您說的要編列明年度的預算公務預算來規定還不一定是這個方式還在討論中\n274382\t293920\t對 我們可以跟相關單位再討論你這個對 我們就繼續來討論因為剛剛審計單位 主計單位都有說明那麼您之前也說如果有狀況當然要配合整個司法的調查但是我們也了解到整個行政責任的釐清跟追究它畢竟會蠻長的一段時間 曠日廢時\n297803\t320244\t有很長的一個司法程序所以我還是建議也就是我們自己內部因為包括了之前發生的這個狀況審計單位也提出那可是未來在執行的這個當中我們要怎麼樣去執行那我們的內部是不是應該要去討論我們要怎麼做讓大家有所依歸請做說明\n321564\t334573\t姚苑你講的跟我們做的是完全一樣的我們就是做了徹底的內部檢討這個徹底的內部檢討下我們其實已經把過去很多我們可能認為管理過於寬鬆\n336167\t356049\t或者是我們在制度面機制面有問題的部分其實在今年初一月的時候就已經提出了改進跟改革的方案現在已經在執行中包括救安基金的管理的做法包括對開口企業的做法包括對宣傳品流向訂定相關的規範管理規範這些事情都已經完成\n356169\t378050\t好 把你們精進的方案 請順便資料一份給本席 那麼也就針對這個案子 你們主動調查這個內部的行政調查嗎我們做了內部的徹底的檢討徹底的檢討 那針對於確實有責任歸屬的部分呢 有做處分或做整理嗎\n379652\t404887\t關於責任歸屬當然有些部分如果責任歸屬的部分現在監察院在調查那我們完全的配合監察院完全的配合這是應當但是剛剛我們說的行政院我們所屬的勞動部是我們整個勞工非常重視的一個部門所以內部的行政調查本是認為你也應當要有內部的行政調查\n406629\t416558\t權責歸屬應該要去理解我們其實做了徹底的內部的檢討檢討不代表你有做權責的歸屬啊關於權責的歸屬行政的歸屬的部分政務人員的行政的部分現在是由監察院跟檢調單位都在調查中\n424947\t446593\t這就是本席剛才所說的因為司法的部分跨日會還要蠻長的時間我們也希望你內部可以去檢討的應該你可以去檢討我相信你有這個能力必須要徹底去檢討到底責任的歸屬啊也符合你未來在運用整個司法才有所依歸啊你要超前的去做嘛\n447173\t464551\t你認同嗎是是喔 是喔把你的責任歸屬給本席最後一個議題我功課給你因為全球暖化的問題我們看到呢這個夏季氣溫持續的在拉高那整個我們勞工的一個工作權的一個健康保障\n465191\t484712\t那避免高氣溫的環境引發的熱疾病因為本席看到我們雖然有訂定危害的預防規定但是審計部給你查了2021年到2022年勞動部檢查的這個部分在戶外的失業單位違反的超過三成\n485333\t513911\t分別是33.7度跟32.8度在這樣的情況之下你們又去檢查有193場次違規的是141場次它的違規是73%部長違規是73%所以在這樣的情況之下數字審計部已經告訴你了你要怎麼樣去調整你的熱危害的預防措施來保障整個勞工工作的安全跟健康\n515936\t534251\t市委員其實為了熱危害大家都面臨同樣的問題那我們其實我們去年已經修了我們設施規則針對現場的戶外作業有立即危險沒有提供飲水沒有提供遮陽降溫措施我們就可以立即罰了所以你的立即罰結果審計單位告訴你是73%的你們去檢查190幾家你是141家是73%不符合 不打你同意這樣子73%不符合嗎\n544400\t559199\t報告委員 過去是通知改善不改善才處罰那營燒工具的改善是比較能夠快速進行的那因為我們去年訂了這樣子比較嚴格的機制那事業單位就開始做一些改善我們有信心進來就做專案檢查讓這樣子熱危害違反的量態能夠降低\n559819\t582155\t好部長您聽到這個說明但是給你的答案是審計單位說你們自己去檢查73%是不符合的所以針對這個議題因為生命誠可貴我們要好好照顧我們的勞工不管是這個工地方面怎麼去改善還是你們的督導我希望能夠以保障我們勞工的安全為基準\n582915\t607120\t跟姚蕾說我其實非常關注這個問題那確實我們現在看到有一些戶外工作的業主其實對這個熱危害的觀念還不夠了解所以這裡面包括規範包括要讓大家產業界更了解這件事情我們會盡力來做這部分我們也不希望說一直罰一直罰你罰了也沒用你要讓大家有這個概念來保護我們的勞工嘛\n607840\t625197\t罰當然是一個法規執行落實的手段但是我們不是說一定非得要靠罰可是重點是不是讓這些相關的規範能夠被落實罰是做法之一所以結果論是不滿意的73%的檢查是不合格的我們就有精進的方向好不好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 陽勛發言 邀請洪部長根據審計部日前報告指出針對我們就業案基金有高達7224萬元的支出它的用途跟法定的促進就業穩定勞工生活的宗旨明顯有不符\n那該巨額款項的用途它不僅暴露出整個基金管理機制嚴重的疏失也更引發了社會大眾對於勞工權益基金是否遭到不當的一個挪用決策過程是否透明化等這些產生的疑慮那進而衝擊到勞工對政府的信任\n其實這個安電基金老闆有出錢之後他的目的就是希望能夠將勞工的權益那麼能夠保障而且能夠穩定我們的勞動力那所以在這樣的一個情況之下呢本席要請教目前我們聽聞以及媒體報章上面據文室部長您說要編列公務預算進行規列規定是嗎\n跟姚委員說明現在審計部的審計的結果是修正檢列並要追回那編列公務預算規定是過去如果被判定為修正檢列的時候的做法之一當然具體的做法我們也願意再跟\n行政院跟審計部來做討論所以換句話說外面高度質疑的以公務預算明年度的預算來規定這個還沒有定案是不是我可以這麼解讀嗎我們可以來跟我是願意來跟我們願意跟行政院來討論但是勞動部我們是一個行政部門我們必須依照審計部的審計的結果\n跟相關的規範來做後續的辦理你現在外界都認為你是要編列明年度的預算來規定這目前啦那你現在的說法這個是過去類似情境的做法之一那你現在的說法就是說你還希望能夠跟審計單位我們願意來跟行政院主計來做相關的討論這一筆錢到底要怎麼處理你現在最新的想法跟預計要怎麼做是不是如此\n我們我們願意來跟大家討論但是都說編列公務預算規定是過去在遇到類似的相關的這個案子到目前為止你並不是一定要如此做而是還要經過討論等於可以這麼解讀我們可以來討論怎麼樣子做法能夠比較符合審計現在的這個樣子這樣子的結果但是這是做法之一\n是之一所以我要給社會大眾了解我們也不希望社會大眾有很多疑慮也就是希望說大家好好做怎麼依法來做既然碰到了問題我們要怎麼樣去解決這個問題所以到目前為止在之前所說的本席再一次請教也就是說要用明列的公務預算來規定還沒有定案是不是可以如此的說呢這是做法之一 對\n所以不一定這麼做但我們會要來跟其實相關的單位來討論因為你現在是部長所以我們要了解目前的進度也就是還沒有決定哪一種方式是不是如此我們之前有說我們會來想要來爭取但是有說這是做法之一所以還沒有決定哪一種方式因為這個也要勞動部還沒有呈現出來嗎\n我們之前有說我們想要爭取公務預算的規定因為這是過去遇到修正檢列並追回的時候的做法之一我們現在是要讓社會大眾了解我們政府預定要怎麼做所以現在您所提的這個是預定之一所以還沒有真正到最後決定要怎麼做是不是如此\n我們會來討論 會來討論所以還沒有決定嗎是不是還沒有定案我們可以這麼說這是我們做法預定的做法之一預定的做法之一所以你還有之二之三是不是如此因為你現在是行政部門所以還要跟相關單位來討論所以我們可以給社會大眾說之前您說的要編列明年度的預算公務預算來規定還不一定是這個方式還在討論中\n對 我們可以跟相關單位再討論你這個對 我們就繼續來討論因為剛剛審計單位 主計單位都有說明那麼您之前也說如果有狀況當然要配合整個司法的調查但是我們也了解到整個行政責任的釐清跟追究它畢竟會蠻長的一段時間 曠日廢時\n有很長的一個司法程序所以我還是建議也就是我們自己內部因為包括了之前發生的這個狀況審計單位也提出那可是未來在執行的這個當中我們要怎麼樣去執行那我們的內部是不是應該要去討論我們要怎麼做讓大家有所依歸請做說明\n姚苑你講的跟我們做的是完全一樣的我們就是做了徹底的內部檢討這個徹底的內部檢討下我們其實已經把過去很多我們可能認為管理過於寬鬆\n或者是我們在制度面機制面有問題的部分其實在今年初一月的時候就已經提出了改進跟改革的方案現在已經在執行中包括救安基金的管理的做法包括對開口企業的做法包括對宣傳品流向訂定相關的規範管理規範這些事情都已經完成\n好 把你們精進的方案 請順便資料一份給本席 那麼也就針對這個案子 你們主動調查這個內部的行政調查嗎我們做了內部的徹底的檢討徹底的檢討 那針對於確實有責任歸屬的部分呢 有做處分或做整理嗎\n關於責任歸屬當然有些部分如果責任歸屬的部分現在監察院在調查那我們完全的配合監察院完全的配合這是應當但是剛剛我們說的行政院我們所屬的勞動部是我們整個勞工非常重視的一個部門所以內部的行政調查本是認為你也應當要有內部的行政調查\n權責歸屬應該要去理解我們其實做了徹底的內部的檢討檢討不代表你有做權責的歸屬啊關於權責的歸屬行政的歸屬的部分政務人員的行政的部分現在是由監察院跟檢調單位都在調查中\n這就是本席剛才所說的因為司法的部分跨日會還要蠻長的時間我們也希望你內部可以去檢討的應該你可以去檢討我相信你有這個能力必須要徹底去檢討到底責任的歸屬啊也符合你未來在運用整個司法才有所依歸啊你要超前的去做嘛\n你認同嗎是是喔 是喔把你的責任歸屬給本席最後一個議題我功課給你因為全球暖化的問題我們看到呢這個夏季氣溫持續的在拉高那整個我們勞工的一個工作權的一個健康保障\n那避免高氣溫的環境引發的熱疾病因為本席看到我們雖然有訂定危害的預防規定但是審計部給你查了2021年到2022年勞動部檢查的這個部分在戶外的失業單位違反的超過三成\n分別是33.7度跟32.8度在這樣的情況之下你們又去檢查有193場次違規的是141場次它的違規是73%部長違規是73%所以在這樣的情況之下數字審計部已經告訴你了你要怎麼樣去調整你的熱危害的預防措施來保障整個勞工工作的安全跟健康\n市委員其實為了熱危害大家都面臨同樣的問題那我們其實我們去年已經修了我們設施規則針對現場的戶外作業有立即危險沒有提供飲水沒有提供遮陽降溫措施我們就可以立即罰了所以你的立即罰結果審計單位告訴你是73%的你們去檢查190幾家你是141家是73%不符合 不打你同意這樣子73%不符合嗎\n報告委員 過去是通知改善不改善才處罰那營燒工具的改善是比較能夠快速進行的那因為我們去年訂了這樣子比較嚴格的機制那事業單位就開始做一些改善我們有信心進來就做專案檢查讓這樣子熱危害違反的量態能夠降低\n好部長您聽到這個說明但是給你的答案是審計單位說你們自己去檢查73%是不符合的所以針對這個議題因為生命誠可貴我們要好好照顧我們的勞工不管是這個工地方面怎麼去改善還是你們的督導我希望能夠以保障我們勞工的安全為基準\n跟姚蕾說我其實非常關注這個問題那確實我們現在看到有一些戶外工作的業主其實對這個熱危害的觀念還不夠了解所以這裡面包括規範包括要讓大家產業界更了解這件事情我們會盡力來做這部分我們也不希望說一直罰一直罰你罰了也沒用你要讓大家有這個概念來保護我們的勞工嘛\n罰當然是一個法規執行落實的手段但是我們不是說一定非得要靠罰可是重點是不是讓這些相關的規範能夠被落實罰是做法之一所以結果論是不滿意的73%的檢查是不合格的我們就有精進的方向好不好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.114 --> 00:10.815\n謝謝主席陽勛發言邀請洪部長根據審計部日前報告指出針對我們就業案基金有高達7224萬元的支出它的用途跟法定的促進就業穩定勞工生活的宗旨明顯有不符\n\n00:36.423 --> 00:57.236\n那該巨額款項的用途它不僅暴露出整個基金管理機制嚴重的疏失也更引發了社會大眾對於勞工權益基金是否遭到不當的一個挪用決策過程是否透明化等這些產生的疑慮那進而衝擊到勞工對政府的信任\n\n00:57.876 --> 01:25.651\n其實這個安電基金老闆有出錢之後他的目的就是希望能夠將勞工的權益那麼能夠保障而且能夠穩定我們的勞動力那所以在這樣的一個情況之下呢本席要請教目前我們聽聞以及媒體報章上面據文室部長您說要編列公務預算進行規列規定是嗎\n\n01:26.491 --> 01:46.028\n跟姚委員說明現在審計部的審計的結果是修正檢列並要追回那編列公務預算規定是過去如果被判定為修正檢列的時候的做法之一當然具體的做法我們也願意再跟\n\n01:46.849 --> 02:09.135\n行政院跟審計部來做討論所以換句話說外面高度質疑的以公務預算明年度的預算來規定這個還沒有定案是不是我可以這麼解讀嗎我們可以來跟我是願意來跟我們願意跟行政院來討論但是勞動部我們是一個行政部門我們必須依照審計部的審計的結果\n\n02:10.615 --> 02:36.654\n跟相關的規範來做後續的辦理你現在外界都認為你是要編列明年度的預算來規定這目前啦那你現在的說法這個是過去類似情境的做法之一那你現在的說法就是說你還希望能夠跟審計單位我們願意來跟行政院主計來做相關的討論這一筆錢到底要怎麼處理你現在最新的想法跟預計要怎麼做是不是如此\n\n02:36.834 --> 02:57.782\n我們我們願意來跟大家討論但是都說編列公務預算規定是過去在遇到類似的相關的這個案子到目前為止你並不是一定要如此做而是還要經過討論等於可以這麼解讀我們可以來討論怎麼樣子做法能夠比較符合審計現在的這個樣子這樣子的結果但是這是做法之一\n\n02:58.542 --> 03:24.788\n是之一所以我要給社會大眾了解我們也不希望社會大眾有很多疑慮也就是希望說大家好好做怎麼依法來做既然碰到了問題我們要怎麼樣去解決這個問題所以到目前為止在之前所說的本席再一次請教也就是說要用明列的公務預算來規定還沒有定案是不是可以如此的說呢這是做法之一對\n\n03:26.570 --> 03:43.926\n所以不一定這麼做但我們會要來跟其實相關的單位來討論因為你現在是部長所以我們要了解目前的進度也就是還沒有決定哪一種方式是不是如此我們之前有說我們會來想要來爭取但是有說這是做法之一所以還沒有決定哪一種方式因為這個也要勞動部還沒有呈現出來嗎\n\n03:45.767 --> 04:03.881\n我們之前有說我們想要爭取公務預算的規定因為這是過去遇到修正檢列並追回的時候的做法之一我們現在是要讓社會大眾了解我們政府預定要怎麼做所以現在您所提的這個是預定之一所以還沒有真正到最後決定要怎麼做是不是如此\n\n04:05.418 --> 04:32.040\n我們會來討論會來討論所以還沒有決定嗎是不是還沒有定案我們可以這麼說這是我們做法預定的做法之一預定的做法之一所以你還有之二之三是不是如此因為你現在是行政部門所以還要跟相關單位來討論所以我們可以給社會大眾說之前您說的要編列明年度的預算公務預算來規定還不一定是這個方式還在討論中\n\n04:34.382 --> 04:53.920\n對我們可以跟相關單位再討論你這個對我們就繼續來討論因為剛剛審計單位主計單位都有說明那麼您之前也說如果有狀況當然要配合整個司法的調查但是我們也了解到整個行政責任的釐清跟追究它畢竟會蠻長的一段時間曠日廢時\n\n04:57.803 --> 05:20.244\n有很長的一個司法程序所以我還是建議也就是我們自己內部因為包括了之前發生的這個狀況審計單位也提出那可是未來在執行的這個當中我們要怎麼樣去執行那我們的內部是不是應該要去討論我們要怎麼做讓大家有所依歸請做說明\n\n05:21.564 --> 05:34.573\n姚苑你講的跟我們做的是完全一樣的我們就是做了徹底的內部檢討這個徹底的內部檢討下我們其實已經把過去很多我們可能認為管理過於寬鬆\n\n05:36.167 --> 05:56.049\n或者是我們在制度面機制面有問題的部分其實在今年初一月的時候就已經提出了改進跟改革的方案現在已經在執行中包括救安基金的管理的做法包括對開口企業的做法包括對宣傳品流向訂定相關的規範管理規範這些事情都已經完成\n\n05:56.169 --> 06:18.050\n好把你們精進的方案請順便資料一份給本席那麼也就針對這個案子你們主動調查這個內部的行政調查嗎我們做了內部的徹底的檢討徹底的檢討那針對於確實有責任歸屬的部分呢有做處分或做整理嗎\n\n06:19.652 --> 06:44.887\n關於責任歸屬當然有些部分如果責任歸屬的部分現在監察院在調查那我們完全的配合監察院完全的配合這是應當但是剛剛我們說的行政院我們所屬的勞動部是我們整個勞工非常重視的一個部門所以內部的行政調查本是認為你也應當要有內部的行政調查\n\n06:46.629 --> 06:56.558\n權責歸屬應該要去理解我們其實做了徹底的內部的檢討檢討不代表你有做權責的歸屬啊關於權責的歸屬行政的歸屬的部分政務人員的行政的部分現在是由監察院跟檢調單位都在調查中\n\n07:04.947 --> 07:26.593\n這就是本席剛才所說的因為司法的部分跨日會還要蠻長的時間我們也希望你內部可以去檢討的應該你可以去檢討我相信你有這個能力必須要徹底去檢討到底責任的歸屬啊也符合你未來在運用整個司法才有所依歸啊你要超前的去做嘛\n\n07:27.173 --> 07:44.551\n你認同嗎是是喔是喔把你的責任歸屬給本席最後一個議題我功課給你因為全球暖化的問題我們看到呢這個夏季氣溫持續的在拉高那整個我們勞工的一個工作權的一個健康保障\n\n07:45.191 --> 08:04.712\n那避免高氣溫的環境引發的熱疾病因為本席看到我們雖然有訂定危害的預防規定但是審計部給你查了2021年到2022年勞動部檢查的這個部分在戶外的失業單位違反的超過三成\n\n08:05.333 --> 08:33.911\n分別是33.7度跟32.8度在這樣的情況之下你們又去檢查有193場次違規的是141場次它的違規是73%部長違規是73%所以在這樣的情況之下數字審計部已經告訴你了你要怎麼樣去調整你的熱危害的預防措施來保障整個勞工工作的安全跟健康\n\n08:35.936 --> 08:54.251\n市委員其實為了熱危害大家都面臨同樣的問題那我們其實我們去年已經修了我們設施規則針對現場的戶外作業有立即危險沒有提供飲水沒有提供遮陽降溫措施我們就可以立即罰了所以你的立即罰結果審計單位告訴你是73%的你們去檢查190幾家你是141家是73%不符合不打你同意這樣子73%不符合嗎\n\n09:04.400 --> 09:19.199\n報告委員過去是通知改善不改善才處罰那營燒工具的改善是比較能夠快速進行的那因為我們去年訂了這樣子比較嚴格的機制那事業單位就開始做一些改善我們有信心進來就做專案檢查讓這樣子熱危害違反的量態能夠降低\n\n09:19.819 --> 09:42.155\n好部長您聽到這個說明但是給你的答案是審計單位說你們自己去檢查73%是不符合的所以針對這個議題因為生命誠可貴我們要好好照顧我們的勞工不管是這個工地方面怎麼去改善還是你們的督導我希望能夠以保障我們勞工的安全為基準\n\n09:42.915 --> 10:07.120\n跟姚蕾說我其實非常關注這個問題那確實我們現在看到有一些戶外工作的業主其實對這個熱危害的觀念還不夠了解所以這裡面包括規範包括要讓大家產業界更了解這件事情我們會盡力來做這部分我們也不希望說一直罰一直罰你罰了也沒用你要讓大家有這個概念來保護我們的勞工嘛\n\n10:07.840 --> 10:25.197\n罰當然是一個法規執行落實的手段但是我們不是說一定非得要靠罰可是重點是不是讓這些相關的規範能夠被落實罰是做法之一所以結果論是不滿意的73%的檢查是不合格的我們就有精進的方向好不好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.114,"end":10.815,"text":"謝謝主席 陽勛發言 邀請洪部長根據審計部日前報告指出針對我們就業案基金有高達7224萬元的支出它的用途跟法定的促進就業穩定勞工生活的宗旨明顯有不符"},{"start":36.423,"end":57.236,"text":"那該巨額款項的用途它不僅暴露出整個基金管理機制嚴重的疏失也更引發了社會大眾對於勞工權益基金是否遭到不當的一個挪用決策過程是否透明化等這些產生的疑慮那進而衝擊到勞工對政府的信任"},{"start":57.876,"end":85.651,"text":"其實這個安電基金老闆有出錢之後他的目的就是希望能夠將勞工的權益那麼能夠保障而且能夠穩定我們的勞動力那所以在這樣的一個情況之下呢本席要請教目前我們聽聞以及媒體報章上面據文室部長您說要編列公務預算進行規列規定是嗎"},{"start":86.491,"end":106.028,"text":"跟姚委員說明現在審計部的審計的結果是修正檢列並要追回那編列公務預算規定是過去如果被判定為修正檢列的時候的做法之一當然具體的做法我們也願意再跟"},{"start":106.849,"end":129.135,"text":"行政院跟審計部來做討論所以換句話說外面高度質疑的以公務預算明年度的預算來規定這個還沒有定案是不是我可以這麼解讀嗎我們可以來跟我是願意來跟我們願意跟行政院來討論但是勞動部我們是一個行政部門我們必須依照審計部的審計的結果"},{"start":130.615,"end":156.654,"text":"跟相關的規範來做後續的辦理你現在外界都認為你是要編列明年度的預算來規定這目前啦那你現在的說法這個是過去類似情境的做法之一那你現在的說法就是說你還希望能夠跟審計單位我們願意來跟行政院主計來做相關的討論這一筆錢到底要怎麼處理你現在最新的想法跟預計要怎麼做是不是如此"},{"start":156.834,"end":177.782,"text":"我們我們願意來跟大家討論但是都說編列公務預算規定是過去在遇到類似的相關的這個案子到目前為止你並不是一定要如此做而是還要經過討論等於可以這麼解讀我們可以來討論怎麼樣子做法能夠比較符合審計現在的這個樣子這樣子的結果但是這是做法之一"},{"start":178.542,"end":204.788,"text":"是之一所以我要給社會大眾了解我們也不希望社會大眾有很多疑慮也就是希望說大家好好做怎麼依法來做既然碰到了問題我們要怎麼樣去解決這個問題所以到目前為止在之前所說的本席再一次請教也就是說要用明列的公務預算來規定還沒有定案是不是可以如此的說呢這是做法之一 對"},{"start":206.57,"end":223.926,"text":"所以不一定這麼做但我們會要來跟其實相關的單位來討論因為你現在是部長所以我們要了解目前的進度也就是還沒有決定哪一種方式是不是如此我們之前有說我們會來想要來爭取但是有說這是做法之一所以還沒有決定哪一種方式因為這個也要勞動部還沒有呈現出來嗎"},{"start":225.767,"end":243.881,"text":"我們之前有說我們想要爭取公務預算的規定因為這是過去遇到修正檢列並追回的時候的做法之一我們現在是要讓社會大眾了解我們政府預定要怎麼做所以現在您所提的這個是預定之一所以還沒有真正到最後決定要怎麼做是不是如此"},{"start":245.418,"end":272.04,"text":"我們會來討論 會來討論所以還沒有決定嗎是不是還沒有定案我們可以這麼說這是我們做法預定的做法之一預定的做法之一所以你還有之二之三是不是如此因為你現在是行政部門所以還要跟相關單位來討論所以我們可以給社會大眾說之前您說的要編列明年度的預算公務預算來規定還不一定是這個方式還在討論中"},{"start":274.382,"end":293.92,"text":"對 我們可以跟相關單位再討論你這個對 我們就繼續來討論因為剛剛審計單位 主計單位都有說明那麼您之前也說如果有狀況當然要配合整個司法的調查但是我們也了解到整個行政責任的釐清跟追究它畢竟會蠻長的一段時間 曠日廢時"},{"start":297.803,"end":320.244,"text":"有很長的一個司法程序所以我還是建議也就是我們自己內部因為包括了之前發生的這個狀況審計單位也提出那可是未來在執行的這個當中我們要怎麼樣去執行那我們的內部是不是應該要去討論我們要怎麼做讓大家有所依歸請做說明"},{"start":321.564,"end":334.573,"text":"姚苑你講的跟我們做的是完全一樣的我們就是做了徹底的內部檢討這個徹底的內部檢討下我們其實已經把過去很多我們可能認為管理過於寬鬆"},{"start":336.167,"end":356.049,"text":"或者是我們在制度面機制面有問題的部分其實在今年初一月的時候就已經提出了改進跟改革的方案現在已經在執行中包括救安基金的管理的做法包括對開口企業的做法包括對宣傳品流向訂定相關的規範管理規範這些事情都已經完成"},{"start":356.169,"end":378.05,"text":"好 把你們精進的方案 請順便資料一份給本席 那麼也就針對這個案子 你們主動調查這個內部的行政調查嗎我們做了內部的徹底的檢討徹底的檢討 那針對於確實有責任歸屬的部分呢 有做處分或做整理嗎"},{"start":379.652,"end":404.887,"text":"關於責任歸屬當然有些部分如果責任歸屬的部分現在監察院在調查那我們完全的配合監察院完全的配合這是應當但是剛剛我們說的行政院我們所屬的勞動部是我們整個勞工非常重視的一個部門所以內部的行政調查本是認為你也應當要有內部的行政調查"},{"start":406.629,"end":416.558,"text":"權責歸屬應該要去理解我們其實做了徹底的內部的檢討檢討不代表你有做權責的歸屬啊關於權責的歸屬行政的歸屬的部分政務人員的行政的部分現在是由監察院跟檢調單位都在調查中"},{"start":424.947,"end":446.593,"text":"這就是本席剛才所說的因為司法的部分跨日會還要蠻長的時間我們也希望你內部可以去檢討的應該你可以去檢討我相信你有這個能力必須要徹底去檢討到底責任的歸屬啊也符合你未來在運用整個司法才有所依歸啊你要超前的去做嘛"},{"start":447.173,"end":464.551,"text":"你認同嗎是是喔 是喔把你的責任歸屬給本席最後一個議題我功課給你因為全球暖化的問題我們看到呢這個夏季氣溫持續的在拉高那整個我們勞工的一個工作權的一個健康保障"},{"start":465.191,"end":484.712,"text":"那避免高氣溫的環境引發的熱疾病因為本席看到我們雖然有訂定危害的預防規定但是審計部給你查了2021年到2022年勞動部檢查的這個部分在戶外的失業單位違反的超過三成"},{"start":485.333,"end":513.911,"text":"分別是33.7度跟32.8度在這樣的情況之下你們又去檢查有193場次違規的是141場次它的違規是73%部長違規是73%所以在這樣的情況之下數字審計部已經告訴你了你要怎麼樣去調整你的熱危害的預防措施來保障整個勞工工作的安全跟健康"},{"start":515.936,"end":534.251,"text":"市委員其實為了熱危害大家都面臨同樣的問題那我們其實我們去年已經修了我們設施規則針對現場的戶外作業有立即危險沒有提供飲水沒有提供遮陽降溫措施我們就可以立即罰了所以你的立即罰結果審計單位告訴你是73%的你們去檢查190幾家你是141家是73%不符合 不打你同意這樣子73%不符合嗎"},{"start":544.4,"end":559.199,"text":"報告委員 過去是通知改善不改善才處罰那營燒工具的改善是比較能夠快速進行的那因為我們去年訂了這樣子比較嚴格的機制那事業單位就開始做一些改善我們有信心進來就做專案檢查讓這樣子熱危害違反的量態能夠降低"},{"start":559.819,"end":582.155,"text":"好部長您聽到這個說明但是給你的答案是審計單位說你們自己去檢查73%是不符合的所以針對這個議題因為生命誠可貴我們要好好照顧我們的勞工不管是這個工地方面怎麼去改善還是你們的督導我希望能夠以保障我們勞工的安全為基準"},{"start":582.915,"end":607.12,"text":"跟姚蕾說我其實非常關注這個問題那確實我們現在看到有一些戶外工作的業主其實對這個熱危害的觀念還不夠了解所以這裡面包括規範包括要讓大家產業界更了解這件事情我們會盡力來做這部分我們也不希望說一直罰一直罰你罰了也沒用你要讓大家有這個概念來保護我們的勞工嘛"},{"start":607.84,"end":625.197,"text":"罰當然是一個法規執行落實的手段但是我們不是說一定非得要靠罰可是重點是不是讓這些相關的規範能夠被落實罰是做法之一所以結果論是不滿意的73%的檢查是不合格的我們就有精進的方向好不好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1230,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時3分）謝謝主席。楊瓊瓔發言，邀請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。部長，根據審計部日前報告指出，針對就業安定基金有高達7,224萬元的支出，它的用途跟法定促進就業、穩定勞工生活的宗旨明顯有不符，該鉅額款項的用途不僅暴露出整個基金管理機制嚴重的疏失，更引發了社會大眾對於勞工權益基金是否遭到不當挪用、決策過程是否透明化等產生疑慮，進而衝擊到勞工對政府的信任。其實安定基金在老闆有出錢之後，其目的希望能夠保障勞工的權益，而且能夠穩定我們的勞動力。在這樣的一個情況之下，本席要請教目前聽聞以及媒體報紙上面，據聞部長，您說要編列公務預算以進行歸墊，是嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟楊委員說明，現在審計部審計的結果是修正、減列並要追回。編列公務預算歸墊是過去如果被判定為修正、減列時的作法之一，當然具體的作法我們也願意再跟行政院、審計部來做討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以換句話說，外面高度質疑以明年度公務預算來歸墊的部分還沒有定案，是不是？我可以這麼解讀嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們願意跟行政院來討論，但是勞動部是一個行政部門，我們必須依照審計部的審計結果跟相關的規範來做後續的辦理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，但現在外界都認為你是要編列明年度的預算來歸墊，那你現在的說法……"],["洪部長申翰：這是以過去類似情境的作法之一。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在的說法是還希望能夠跟審計單位……"],["洪部長申翰：我們願意跟行政院、主計來做相關的討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：跟行政院討論這一筆錢到底要怎麼處理，你現在最新的想法跟預計要怎麼做，是不是如此？"],["洪部長申翰：我們願意跟大家討論，但是編列公務預算歸墊是過去在遇到類似的相關……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以這個案子到目前為止，你並不是一定要如此做而是還要經過討論，本席可以這麼解讀嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以來討論什麼樣的作法能夠比較符合審計現在的結果，但是這是作法之一。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是之一嘛！所以我要讓社會大眾了解，我們也不希望社會大眾有很多疑慮，也希望大家好好做、怎麼依法來做，既然碰到了問題，我們要怎麼樣去解決這個問題。所以到目前為止，本席再一次請教，針對之前所說要用明年的公務預算來歸墊一事還沒有定案，是不是可以如此的說呢？"],["洪部長申翰：這是作法之一。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以不一定這麼做？"],["洪部長申翰：但我們要跟相關的單位來討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你現在是部長，所以我們要了解目前的進度，也就是還沒有決定哪一種方式，是不是如此？"],["洪部長申翰：我們之前有說會想要來爭取，但是這是作法之一。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以還沒有決定哪一種方式？勞動部還沒有呈現出來嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們之前有說想要爭取公務預算來歸墊，因為這是過去遇到修正、減列並追回時候的作法之一。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，我們現在是要讓社會大眾了解政府預定要怎麼做，所以現在您所提的是預定之一，還沒有真正決定最後要怎麼做，是不是如此？"],["洪部長申翰：我們會來討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會來討論，所以還沒有決定、還沒有定案？我們可以這麼說。"],["洪部長申翰：這是我們預定作法之一。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你還有之二、之三，是不是如此？"],["洪部長申翰：之二、之三我們還是要討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你現在是行政部門……還要跟相關單位來討論，所以我們可以跟社會大眾說：之前您說要編列明年度的預算公務預算來歸墊，還不一定是這個方式、還在討論中？"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們可以跟相關單位再討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你這個「對」，我們就繼續來討論。因為剛剛審計單位、主計單位有說明，而您之前也說如果有狀況當然要配合整個司法的調查，但是我們也了解到整個行政責任的釐清跟追究畢竟會花滿長的一段時間，曠日費時，因為有很長的司法程序，所以我還是建議，包括之前發生的這個狀況，審計單位也有提出，可是未來在執行的過程當中，你們內部是不是應該要去討論怎麼執行才能讓大家有所依歸，請做說明。"],["洪部長申翰：楊委員，你講的跟我們做的是完全一樣的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：非常好，請說明。"],["洪部長申翰：我們澈底做了內部檢討，在檢討之下已經把過去很多認為可能管理過於寬鬆或在制度面、機制面有問題的部分，其實在今年一月的時候提出了改進跟改革的方案，現在已經在執行中，包括就安基金管理的作法、開口契約的作法、宣傳品流向訂定相關的管理規範等，這些事情都已經完成。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請把你們精進的方案給本席一份書面資料。"],["洪部長申翰：沒有問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：針對這個案子，你們主動做了內部的行政調查嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們做了內部澈底的檢討。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：針對於確實有責任歸屬的部分，有做處分或整理嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然如果有責任歸屬的部分，現在監察院在調查，我們完全地配合監察院、檢調的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：完全的配合這是應當，但是行政院勞動部是整個勞工非常重視的部門，所以本席認為您也應當要有內部的行政調查，權責歸屬也應該要去理解。"],["洪部長申翰：楊委員，我們其實做了澈底的內部檢討。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：檢討不代表你有做權責的歸屬啊！真的有誤的時候要怎麼做呢？"],["洪部長申翰：關於權責的歸屬、行政的歸屬、政務人員的行政部分，現在都由監察院跟檢調單位在調查中。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個就是本席剛才所說的，因為司法的部分曠日廢時還需要滿長的時間，我們希望內部可以去檢討的應該可以先去檢討，我相信你有這個能力。"],["洪部長申翰：是，我們會澈底的檢討。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：必須要澈底去檢討到底責任的歸屬是如何？以符合未來在因應整個司法時才有所依歸，你要超前地去做，認同嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，把你的責任歸屬資料給本席。","最後一個議題，我給你功課。因為全球暖化的問題，我們看到夏季氣溫持續拉高，關乎勞工的工作權及健康保障，必須避免高氣溫的環境引發熱疾病。因為本席看到雖然有訂定危害預防規定，但是審計部查核勞動部從2021年到2022年執行戶外的作業，事業單位違反規定的超過三成，分別是33.7%跟32.8%，在這樣的情況之下你們又去檢查，有193場次中違規是141場次占73%，部長，違規是73%！"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以目前審計部已經提出數字了，你要怎麼樣去調整熱危害預防措施，來保障整個勞工工作的安全跟健康？"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員。為了熱危害大家都面臨同樣的問題，其實我們去年已經修了設施規則，針對現場的戶外作業有立即危險，沒有提供飲水、沒有提供遮陽及降溫措施者，我們就可以立即罰了，所以……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們立即罰，結果審計單位說你們去檢查193家，有141家占73%是不符合，部長，你同意73%不符合嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，過去是通知改善，不改善才處罰，營造工地改善是比較能夠快速進行，也因為我們去年訂了比較嚴格的預防機制，事業單位就開始做一些改善，我們有信心今年再做專案檢查時，能夠讓違反熱危害的樣態降低。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，您聽到這個說明，但是給你的答案是，審計單位說你們自己去檢查有73%是不符合的，針對這個議題，因為生命誠可貴，我們要好好照顧我們的勞工，不管是怎麼去改善工地方面還是你們的督導方面，我希望能夠以保障我們勞工的安全為基準，好嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟楊委員說明，我其實非常關注這個問題，確實我們現在看到有一些戶外工作的業主對熱危害的觀念還不夠了解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：加速去宣導好不好？要讓大家有這個概念。"],["洪部長申翰：所以包括規範、要讓產業界更了解這件事情，我們會盡力來做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：加速去宣導。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們也不希望一直罰、一直罰，因為罰了也沒用，重點是要讓大家有這個概念來保護我們的勞工。"],["洪部長申翰：罰當然是執行、落實法規的一個手段，但是我們不是一定非得靠罰。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，你這句話就對了。"],["洪部長申翰：可是重點是讓這些相關的規範能夠被落實，罰是作法之一。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以結果論是不滿意的，73%的檢查是不合格的，我們就有精進的方向。謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員、謝謝部長。","涂權吉委員改書面質詢。","接續請楊曜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","盧縣一","洪孟楷","王正旭","黃秀芳","陳瑩","劉建國","廖先翔","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱若華","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00005"}}}