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\"start\": 99.134, \"end\": 99.735, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 99.735, \"end\": 99.875, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 99.875, \"end\": 100.035, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 100.035, \"end\": 100.335, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 100.335, \"end\": 100.496, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 100.496, \"end\": 100.756, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 100.756, \"end\": 101.176, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 101.176, \"end\": 101.357, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 101.357, \"end\": 101.737, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"廢\"}, {\"word\": \"除\", \"start\": 101.737, \"end\": 101.937, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"刑\", \"start\": 101.937, \"end\": 102.138, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 102.138, \"end\": 102.218, \"score\": 0.77}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 102.218, \"end\": 102.238, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"活\", \"start\": 102.238, \"end\": 102.258, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 102.258, \"end\": 102.278, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"實\"}]}, {\"start\": 104.961, \"end\": 127.032, \"text\": \"我一直在追求的就是所謂的百分之百言論自由所以今天很多民進黨委員來這邊講說鄭南榮多麼啟發他其實鄭南榮一直他的言論他所謂的言論自由一直是我追求的一個重點所以他所說的在面對槍口之下他也是追求百分之百言論自由或是像楊兆所說的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 104.961, \"end\": 105.121, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 105.121, \"end\": 105.261, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 105.261, \"end\": 105.421, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 105.421, \"end\": 105.741, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"追\", \"start\": 105.741, \"end\": 105.962, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"求\", \"start\": 105.962, \"end\": 106.202, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 106.202, \"end\": 106.562, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 106.562, 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\"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 564.646, \"end\": 564.766, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 564.766, \"end\": 564.986, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 564.986, \"end\": 565.767, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 565.767, \"end\": 565.928, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 565.928, \"end\": 566.408, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 566.408, \"end\": 566.508, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 566.508, \"end\": 566.628, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 566.628, \"end\": 566.769, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"育\", \"start\": 566.769, \"end\": 566.869, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 566.869, \"end\": 567.029, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 567.029, \"end\": 569.012, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, {\"word\": \"劉\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 569.012, \"end\": 569.372, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 569.372, \"end\": 569.793, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 569.793, \"end\": 570.133, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 570.133, \"end\": 570.353, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 570.353, \"end\": 570.934, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 570.934, \"end\": 572.116, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 572.116, \"end\": 572.296, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 572.296, \"end\": 572.476, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 572.476, \"end\": 572.496, \"score\": 0.907}]}, {\"start\": 573.601, \"end\": 588.458, \"text\": \"老師怎麼教學生 要學生怎麼遵循就我剛剛講的 這各種都是不一樣啊所以 好吧 反正這個不是教育部講 所以我也不適合問次長說有部長在台上喊台灣國 這個大家想法是怎麼樣\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"老\", \"start\": 573.601, \"end\": 574.122, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"師\"}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 574.122, \"end\": 574.362, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 574.362, \"end\": 574.602, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 574.602, \"end\": 574.822, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 574.822, \"end\": 575.343, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 575.343, \"end\": 575.603, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 575.603, \"end\": 575.864, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 575.864, \"end\": 576.104, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 576.104, \"end\": 576.384, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"遵\", \"start\": 576.384, \"end\": 576.624, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"循\", \"start\": 576.624, \"end\": 577.205, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 577.205, \"end\": 577.325, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 577.325, \"end\": 577.866, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 577.866, \"end\": 578.206, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 578.206, \"end\": 578.547, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 578.547, \"end\": 578.687, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 578.687, \"end\": 578.867, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 578.867, \"end\": 579.007, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 579.007, \"end\": 579.368, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 579.368, \"end\": 580.068, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 580.068, \"end\": 580.249, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 580.249, \"end\": 580.929, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 580.929, \"end\": 581.049, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"吧\", \"start\": 581.049, \"end\": 581.35, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 581.35, \"end\": 581.47, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 581.47, \"end\": 581.91, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 581.91, \"end\": 582.01, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 582.01, \"end\": 582.171, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 582.171, \"end\": 582.311, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"育\", \"start\": 582.311, \"end\": 582.391, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 582.391, \"end\": 582.551, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 582.551, \"end\": 582.751, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 582.751, \"end\": 583.472, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 583.472, \"end\": 583.592, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 583.592, \"end\": 583.732, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 583.732, \"end\": 584.033, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"適\"}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 584.033, \"end\": 584.393, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 584.393, \"end\": 585.414, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 585.414, \"end\": 585.615, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 585.615, \"end\": 585.995, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 585.995, \"end\": 586.215, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 586.215, \"end\": 586.355, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 586.355, \"end\": 586.536, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"喊\", \"start\": 586.536, \"end\": 586.736, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 586.736, \"end\": 586.876, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 586.876, \"end\": 587.697, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 587.697, \"end\": 587.917, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 587.917, \"end\": 588.137, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 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\"start\": 678.041, \"end\": 678.141, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 678.141, \"end\": 679.821, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"範\"}, {\"word\": \"鼓\", \"start\": 679.821, \"end\": 680.021, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"吹\", \"start\": 680.021, \"end\": 680.781, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"戰\"}, {\"word\": \"爭\"}, {\"word\": \"罪\", \"start\": 680.781, \"end\": 683.562, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 683.562, \"end\": 683.742, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 683.742, \"end\": 683.762, \"score\": 0.911}]}, {\"start\": 690.134, \"end\": 700.839, \"text\": \"這份委員報告,那個現刑法有可能涉及到鼓吹戰爭的言論,包括就是仇恨性的言論,這個譬如說刑法100條、101條、103條、309、310、還有153條,還有涉違法的63條。309、310,公然侮辱舉報。這就是妨害名譽這部分,都有涉及仇恨性的言論。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"份\", \"start\": 690.134, \"end\": 690.354, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 690.354, \"end\": 690.754, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, 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\"end\": 699.679, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"譽\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 699.679, \"end\": 699.759, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 699.759, \"end\": 699.839, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 699.839, \"end\": 700.039, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 700.039, \"end\": 700.179, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"涉\", \"start\": 700.179, \"end\": 700.259, \"score\": 0.739}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 700.259, \"end\": 700.279, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"仇\", \"start\": 700.279, \"end\": 700.499, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"恨\", \"start\": 700.499, \"end\": 700.639, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 700.639, \"end\": 700.679, \"score\": 0.497}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 700.679, \"end\": 700.819, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 700.819, \"end\": 700.839, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 714.192, \"end\": 740.649, \"text\": \"誹謗跟供罕無辱這是仇恨性的言論這跟骨髓戰爭有什麼關係309、310不可能啦骨髓戰爭的言論這部分骨髓戰爭的言論的話我們看可以更明確化但是有涉及的條文是有這些跟仇恨性的言論部長你這樣講太包沾包海了這講出去會被念法律的人笑啦我說實在話我想這個我們就可能我說可能有涉及到這部分仇恨性言論因為這個戰爭有這些仇恨性的言論\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"誹\"}, {\"word\": \"謗\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 714.192, \"end\": 714.873, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 714.873, \"end\": 715.013, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"罕\", \"start\": 715.013, \"end\": 715.093, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"無\", \"start\": 715.093, \"end\": 715.533, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"辱\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 715.533, \"end\": 716.133, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"仇\", \"start\": 716.133, \"end\": 716.334, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"恨\", \"start\": 716.334, \"end\": 716.534, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 716.534, \"end\": 716.714, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 716.714, \"end\": 716.834, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 716.834, \"end\": 717.294, \"score\": 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蔣無統這個部分呢怎麼會沒有違法這個公正公約第20條就他們也念了公正公約20條的條文結果他念的條文跟他講的解釋完全不一樣他連法律都沒有搞懂公正公約20條任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳應以法律禁止之也就是說公正公約20條他所刻意的義務是國家必須訂出法律\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"鼓\", \"start\": 813.297, \"end\": 813.477, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"吹\", \"start\": 813.477, \"end\": 813.997, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"蔣\"}, {\"word\": \"無\", \"start\": 813.997, \"end\": 814.978, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 814.978, \"end\": 815.158, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 815.158, \"end\": 815.278, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 815.278, \"end\": 815.438, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 815.438, \"end\": 815.698, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 815.698, \"end\": 815.798, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 815.798, \"end\": 816.098, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"違\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 816.098, \"end\": 816.418, 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00:00:15,168\n我們麻煩教育部正次陸委會副主委法務部長還有司法院廳長教育部陸委會法務部還有司法院\n\n2\n00:00:19,278 --> 00:00:45,066\n好那首先我先破題的簡單講一下就是因為我們其實這段時間我受夠了很多不明的不明的這些網軍總之對我們的發言斷章取義所以我先在這邊先說明一下第一個我今天所有的質詢都不針對個案那你們也請不要用個案來回答我第二個對於所有\n\n3\n00:00:46,414 --> 00:01:03,634\n只要是對我們這塊土地的有侵害的外來武力我們都予以反抗我們一定都會出來反抗而且所有希望以武力來顛覆我們這塊土地的我們都予以譴責但是呢回過頭來我講到\n\n4\n00:01:05,373 --> 00:01:25,738\n重點但是有些言論雖然不被我們所能接受但是不代表國家就可以動用公權力來加以限制他發言的理由也就是有一些言論他不被我們喜歡但是是不是有到達違法或用法律加以處罰其實這兩個東西是完全不同層次的\n\n5\n00:01:26,678 --> 00:01:42,278\n的概念所以我自己在上個會期的時候我有提到在1990年的時候我自己參加野百合學運一直到後續也有廢紙動力勘案次序臨時條款然後後來我再去參加了廢除刑法100條的活動其實\n\n6\n00:01:44,961 --> 00:02:07,032\n我一直在追求的就是所謂的百分之百言論自由所以今天很多民進黨委員來這邊講說鄭南榮多麼啟發他其實鄭南榮一直他的言論他所謂的言論自由一直是我追求的一個重點所以他所說的在面對槍口之下他也是追求百分之百言論自由或是像楊兆所說的\n\n7\n00:02:08,192 --> 00:02:24,276\n鄭南榮到死他都還是堅守百分之百言論自由我想說這些東西現在目前在有一些民進黨的政客的嘴裡面其實我覺得他們是在褻瀆鄭南榮的精神我想先提一下當年為什麼參加廢物刑法100條\n\n8\n00:02:28,874 --> 00:02:48,154\n的這個活動當然當時那個主要原因是因為當時我的學校導師是劉初之教授他先生是林三田那林三田本來就是廢族刑法100條的領先人所以一直以來我們都是追隨著他們而且我們希望當時流亡在海外的異議分子能夠平安的回到台灣我們當時是這樣\n\n9\n00:02:49,756 --> 00:03:15,395\n我們的都在追求這個甚至在刑法100條在修正之前其他第二項根本就是一個思想犯的控制那他第一項他在修正之後也加上了許多必須要強暴脅迫的實際行為這時候才會加以限制所以我們在這麼久以前就知道要去廢除刑法100條來追求我們人民的言論自由為什麼到今天反而走回頭路\n\n10\n00:03:16,155 --> 00:03:24,498\n那我想請問一下法務部跟司法院如果有人在網路上面發表說我要顛覆賴清德政府請問這有沒有成立內亂罪這應該很簡單吧請問這有沒有成立內亂罪\n\n11\n00:03:41,072 --> 00:04:10,407\n好就是沒有成立內亂罪嘛對不對我想這結論我想這非常簡單啦所以呢其實賴總統他前天說的他說任何鼓吹剝奪台灣人民自由主張讓中華民國台灣消失的倡議都不是台灣社會能夠接受的言論自由而百分之百的言論自由更不是利用自由來消滅自由基本上啊我大部分還是認同賴總統說的話畢竟沒有國家了那大家也就無所依附了嘛\n\n12\n00:04:11,047 --> 00:04:28,700\n所以講台灣消失的言論不會被主流民意所接受但是違不違法這是另外一回事我再講一次很多言論不被主流民意所接受但是違不違法是另外一個層次的問題所以呢\n\n13\n00:04:31,618 --> 00:04:59,397\n我想言論自由的界限在哪裡這個很重要我們必須告訴人民什麼能講什麼不能講但是政府對於這個東西似乎是完全沒有很明確的規範就像這次法務部你們跟司法院都有提到的4至445號跟644號其實他已經講得很明確了就是說國家不可以單純因為集會遊行的團體主張共產主義或分裂國土\n\n14\n00:05:00,297 --> 00:05:25,828\n不能因為主張這個就限制他們或拒絕他們集會遊行的許可所以從這個四字我們很能夠明確的了解就是所謂限制人民的言論自由它必須要有兩個要件第一個要明確所以我們法律要有明確性第二個要有立即的危險所以當有這兩個的時候你加以限制是完全正確的但是今天如果不是的情況下\n\n15\n00:05:27,188 --> 00:05:37,786\n那實際不應該立法加以限制啊你只能說他是一個不入流一個不好的言論但是不至於到我們要用法律去規範他嘛所以呢\n\n16\n00:05:40,233 --> 00:05:56,460\n過去民進黨追求100%研究結果但到今天似乎又變了那我再請教一下教育部政次我想請教一下部長最近的發言他認為說教育人員在教學的時候要讓青少年具有國家主權的意識要確保國家認同\n\n17\n00:05:59,941 --> 00:06:19,996\n我跟你說我認同這一句話因為我從小我爸爸就告訴我叫我做到兩件事愛國還有孝順這我公開講過很多次我爸從小就叫我這兩件事一定要做到所以我對於國家認同對於愛國我是非常重視這個行為好那我請教一下部長這麼說那鄭次郭想請教你\n\n18\n00:06:22,458 --> 00:06:49,247\n今天你們要求老師跟學生要這麼做要求老師要這麼宣導那我請教您一個問題所謂的國家認同是一憲法所講的中華民國還是二兩岸人民關係所講的台灣地區以及大陸地區或是三台獨就是台灣獨立主權獨立的台灣國還是四蔡英文政府她所說的堅持維持現狀的台灣還是五\n\n19\n00:06:52,443 --> 00:07:17,815\n小時候課本寫了做個堂堂正任中國人請問這五個是哪一個叫做是我們的國家認同我想部長已經講得很清楚那你等於沒回答我他就是中華民國的教育工作者你等於沒回答我請問一下這五個是哪一個我講一個最簡單您今天貴為次長您也是政治人物出身我非常尊重您但是如果貴為政次而且是政治人物出身的人都無法告訴我所謂的國家認同\n\n20\n00:07:20,333 --> 00:07:47,558\n愛國到底愛的是什麼樣的到底是什麼我剛剛講的就五個這五個也是非常明確第一個憲法第二個兩岸人民關係條例第三個大家講的台獨第四個蔡英文前總統所說的維持現狀的台灣第五個還是小時候課本說的台灣真正的中國人這五個是哪一個我要效忠哪一個或我要認同哪一個那個才叫做符合教育部部長所說的國家認同請教次長他有講到憲法嗎\n\n21\n00:07:50,054 --> 00:08:00,432\n所以呢我剛才在報告的時候也有提到我們享用的言論自由是根據憲法第二條這五個選項很簡單嘛憲法上現在是中華民國嘛\n\n22\n00:08:02,430 --> 00:08:25,407\n所以今天你說的是你認為部長所說的國家認同是憲法的中華民國我以為你秀出來就有提到不要忘掉身為一個中華民國的教育工作者所以這個講得很清楚沒有問題沒關係我剛剛就講有五個但是今天似乎實際上在政治圈大家不是這麼講\n\n23\n00:08:27,729 --> 00:08:50,686\n還有人大言不慚的說中華民國憲法是災難本來一開始說中華民國是災難後來趕快改口說中華民國憲法是災難那我這不講誰大家也都知道所以現在其實我跟各位報告搞到今天所謂的國家認同都只能講台灣你不能講別的你講台灣以外就叫做中共同路人所以打球打贏的台灣隊打輸的叫中華隊\n\n24\n00:08:51,907 --> 00:09:15,689\n這只會出現在荒謬的台灣才有這個狀況其實這很離譜但是我還是跟各位說我不討厭民進黨的人我不痛恨他們但是我超級熱愛這塊土地所以我認為我就是熱愛這塊土地所以我從小就認為愛國是一件很重要的事情可是你今天反而混淆了我到底我的國家認同要在哪裡那如果說今天連\n\n25\n00:09:17,156 --> 00:09:32,496\n上面的長官們自己都搞不清楚都無法確定了或是說的跟做的不一樣就像部長在喊說台灣國的什麼什麼這是部長不是教育部長啦連劉部長都說了我們台灣國怎麼樣那我要\n\n26\n00:09:33,601 --> 00:09:48,458\n老師怎麼教學生要學生怎麼遵循就我剛剛講的這各種都是不一樣啊所以好吧反正這個不是教育部講所以我也不適合問次長說有部長在台上喊台灣國這個大家想法是怎麼樣\n\n27\n00:09:49,919 --> 00:10:15,433\n所以我覺得這種搞下去台灣變成很對立的社會似乎你不認同民進黨口中所說的那個國家的那個概念或他的定義那你就是中共同路人事實上我剛剛講的我不恨民進黨員我以前也很堅持的支持民進黨的青年情障礙鄉土但是今天他變了是他變了不是我變了\n\n28\n00:10:17,588 --> 00:10:42,235\n他對這塊的土地熱愛其實我是已經看不到了那我再跟各位報告一件事情DPPS前幾天的網路投票其實有77.4%的人認為戴總統上任之後言論自由被限縮很多9.3%認為被限縮了一些也就是說超過8成5的民眾感受言論自由的限制是比過去更嚴重這個請給各位參考一下\n\n29\n00:10:43,215 --> 00:11:00,949\n這個不是我所追求的百分之百言論自由也不是我一生尊崇的鄭南榮他的言論自由所會引導出今天台灣的這個現狀所以一些言論即使在言論的市場不被大家喜歡但是不代表它就是違法\n\n30\n00:11:01,897 --> 00:11:23,762\n不被人民喜歡的言論他也不代表就會動搖台灣現在的安全跟國際的現狀所以我想這給各位講一下那我再請教一個問題法務部跟司法院我請教一下我國目前有沒有規範鼓吹戰爭罪請回答\n\n31\n00:11:30,134 --> 00:11:40,839\n這份委員報告,那個現刑法有可能涉及到鼓吹戰爭的言論,包括就是仇恨性的言論,這個譬如說刑法100條、101條、103條、309、310、還有153條,還有涉違法的63條。309、310,公然侮辱舉報。這就是妨害名譽這部分,都有涉及仇恨性的言論。\n\n32\n00:11:54,192 --> 00:12:20,649\n誹謗跟供罕無辱這是仇恨性的言論這跟骨髓戰爭有什麼關係309、310不可能啦骨髓戰爭的言論這部分骨髓戰爭的言論的話我們看可以更明確化但是有涉及的條文是有這些跟仇恨性的言論部長你這樣講太包沾包海了這講出去會被念法律的人笑啦我說實在話我想這個我們就可能我說可能有涉及到這部分仇恨性言論因為這個戰爭有這些仇恨性的言論\n\n33\n00:12:21,709 --> 00:12:46,489\n這個講仇恨性能夠講一個就是戰爭簡單來說就是譬如說有人喊武統這個我國目前到底有沒有制定這個法律有沒有那還是廳長如果部長你總是搞不清楚那廳長呢我不會搞不清楚啦那個我已經好那你跟我說哪一條你再跟我說一次哪309、310講出去線上看到的法官檢察官應該會笑出聲音那我們就先說在那個整個一個內亂外患通某開戰這部分嘛\n\n34\n00:12:50,017 --> 00:13:06,850\n這跟鼓吹沒有關係啊我來跟各位報告至少我自己基本認為啦目前我國並沒有就鼓吹戰爭這個行為加以立法那我再跟各位報告一下我國是成文法國家\n\n35\n00:13:07,791 --> 00:13:32,637\n以及我國的罪行法定原則也就是你的行為除非法律有規範他犯罪否則基本上他是不會構成犯罪所以我國是堅守罪行法定主義以及純文法國家的這個概念那今天有兩位民進黨的委員一位省姓委員一位無姓委員他們兩位一直在講公正公約二十條他說某人\n\n36\n00:13:33,297 --> 00:13:59,948\n鼓吹蔣無統這個部分呢怎麼會沒有違法這個公正公約第20條就他們也念了公正公約20條的條文結果他念的條文跟他講的解釋完全不一樣他連法律都沒有搞懂公正公約20條任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳應以法律禁止之也就是說公正公約20條他所刻意的義務是國家必須訂出法律\n\n37\n00:14:01,048 --> 00:14:28,951\n是這個規定國家必須定出法律而不是告訴人民說你講這個就是違法什麼情況下會違法就是當國家定出法律之後人民加以違法那叫做違法這叫做所以這就回到我剛說的這是我國的罪行法定主義是這樣所以呢今天這兩位委員一直提公正公約二十條所以今天有人在網路上面講梧桐兩個字這個是違法\n\n38\n00:14:30,472 --> 00:14:58,032\n其實這是完全錯誤的概念這個也是對於法律認知的思考的跳躍這個邏輯完全中斷思考的跳躍才會發生這個說法所以公正公約二十條第一項我們該檢討的是什麼是過去的立法院以及過去不管藍綠執政的行政單位為什麼沒有趕快把這個法律立出來為什麼沒有2009年公正公約就已經生效了為什麼\n\n39\n00:14:59,893 --> 00:15:27,906\n十幾年下來國家卻沒有把這條法律立出來結果今天有某一個人他在網路上面講了這句話之後你就說這個違反公正公約20條可是公正公約20條他是要求國家去立這個法律我想這很明確那至於說有一些人他要思考跳躍的去解釋法律那我就予以尊重所以又回到我剛剛說的我國目前沒有鼓吹戰爭罪嘛\n\n40\n00:15:28,766 --> 00:15:50,576\n至少從構成要件來看有嗎好那不管有沒有那我再請教一下有網紅啊在他的歌曲裡面就是要求中國大陸求你趕快打過來你到底打不打那請問一下這個有沒有違反違反法律規定這個是不是鼓吹戰爭我想請教兩位\n\n41\n00:15:56,052 --> 00:16:24,695\n好吧那沒有辦法回答就算了我想我們不能always雙標在面對國人尤其是法律跟制度應該長治久安你一方面可以說有人在講武統或武裝那個我也很討厭那個言論我也絕對譴責講這些話的人但是他在法律上面要怎麼去定位法律是不是要符合法律明確性告訴大家言論自由的界限在哪裡而不是今天你非我族類那你就違法\n\n42\n00:16:25,456 --> 00:16:44,038\n你是我同一掛人所以你今天你講叫中國大陸趕快打過來你到底打不打啊就沒事所以我在這邊必須點出這個從法律的角度來告訴大家公正公約第一個被很多政客自己隨便亂誤解公正公約它刻意的對象是國家以及行政機關、立法機關\n\n43\n00:16:45,459 --> 00:17:10,873\n那今天我國只要還沒有完成這個立法程序之前人民你不能說他這個行為違法你可以說他不道德你可以說他這樣不好你可以說我譴責你這個說法但是你沒辦法說他違法我在這邊跟各位做這樣的報告好那我這次跟法務部要資料部長啊我給你請教一下說啊到底你這個鼓吹戰爭罪什麼時候要立法你們給我的回覆是研修小組在113年4月2號已經開過有開過一次\n\n44\n00:17:14,395 --> 00:17:26,486\n那現在一年多了啊那到現在到底是怎麼樣卻沒看到第二個我跟你要資料你又給我回覆說不提供會議紀錄因為依據政府資訊公開法18條第一項第三款這個\n\n45\n00:17:30,478 --> 00:17:47,393\n這個研修紀錄是不能公開的但是請你看一下那一條有一個但書那一條的但書就是跟公益有必要的時候得公開那我今天覺得這個東西跟我們國人言論自由的範圍有非常大的關聯性跟公益也有關聯性\n\n46\n00:17:48,334 --> 00:18:03,146\n甚至一個人他到底在網路上面能講什麼不能講什麼或者是有人講被辦有人講沒事那到底範圍界限在哪裡這毫不明確所以我還是認為說下次我還是會形容跟你們一樣但是我想說如果你再跟我說這個\n\n47\n00:18:05,968 --> 00:18:31,826\n你要提這個政府資訊公開法來不給我的話我想說這個跟公益有關我還是希望你們能夠公開另外一年多了這東西到現在沒有進度這也是我想要點出來讓大家知道法務部這一塊你就是怠惰在處理這個事情最後我想請不好意思喔耽誤到大家的時間最後我想請問一下那個陸委會\n\n48\n00:18:33,686 --> 00:19:02,471\n陸委會我有拜讀你們的資料還有剛剛陸委會主委也有提到剛剛在做口頭報告的時候也有提到一個點就是說你說陸配的言論自由程度跟公民不同因為要有較高的管制那這個我不評論我都予以尊重因為你說這個是境外敵對勢力等等的這個說法所以必須對他們有高強度的管制我先不評論這件事情我想要請教你的那所謂的陸配的定義\n\n49\n00:19:04,371 --> 00:19:31,802\n第一個如果只有居留權的陸配才要高強度的管制嗎還是第二個取得身份證後的陸配也要高強度的管制第三個如果是中國大陸出生成長受教育但是事後入籍他國或港澳然後再與我國人結婚那這三種請問一下這個管制上面是一致適用高強度管制還是有所區別請教副主委\n\n50\n00:19:33,393 --> 00:19:55,606\n如果他只有居留權他能夠住在台灣是因為我們特許他我們給他特許讓你住在台灣但我們可以隨時取消這個特許權所以他的管制就會比較更高一點譬如說他不一定要居留也許他是來停留或者是來觀光\n\n51\n00:19:56,869 --> 00:20:17,020\n他講出類似可以會違背國家利益或是干擾社會秩序的言論那我們就不歡迎那他如果拿到身份證或是定居但我們在定居留許可辦法之中也有相對的條文至於你說第三種狀況是說他\n\n52\n00:20:21,903 --> 00:20:46,013\n中國大陸人士他拿到美國籍然後跟台灣人結婚那我們會看他說拿到美國籍或是拿到其他國家國籍有多久的時間基本上我們會用五年來算就是說你拿到其他國家的國籍五年之後我才四年之後我才確認你可能已經放棄了中國的國籍了這樣\n\n53\n00:20:49,358 --> 00:20:57,134\n第一個只有居留證的陸配你們認為是要比較高強度的管制那有身份證的我剛剛沒有聽清楚有身份證的話你們怎麼認定\n\n54\n00:20:58,086 --> 00:21:23,501\n有身份證的話因為我們在定居留尋可辦法裡面也有相應的條文跟這個居留的部分是有點類似所以這個部分應該是這麼說就是台灣跟大陸之間它的狀況很特殊所以我們在兩岸條例從一開始設計的時候它就跟國籍法不一樣\n\n55\n00:21:24,221 --> 00:21:53,604\n我們在處理兩岸人民關係的時候跟台灣跟其他國家是不同我也認同我的意思是說我都沒有意見啦就是說台灣跟中國大陸之間的關係很特別這個我OK但是我的意思是說不管怎麼樣對人民我們的任何行政處分都要明確嘛法律明確性原則這是一個法律最基本的概念所以呢我現在確認的是第一個有居留權的陸配這個管制上面會比較嚴格那我剛剛請教的如果您有身份證的當初的陸配\n\n56\n00:21:54,224 --> 00:22:18,871\n那這個要不要嚴格我只是要問這個問題而已應該是這樣講就是我們既然給他身分證原則上我們是把他當作是中華民國國民就是他的言論自由的審查程度不會像只有居留權的陸配那麼高好像得到這個有他國籍的這些就是以四年來當作判斷的標準那這個我可以了解\n\n57\n00:22:19,491 --> 00:22:41,255\n好那最後我還是一樣就是說我提到一個我還是反對任何武統言論或者是只要有任何武力要對我們這塊土地要侵害我都願意出來對抗所以不要扣我們什麼帽子只要不認同民進黨就叫舔共沒有這種事情啦台灣是大家的台灣是我們熱愛的這塊土地不是我不認同你的邏輯那我就是\n\n58\n00:22:41,855 --> 00:22:53,771\n那個誰的同路人我跟你講這個就是把人民二分法搞激烈對抗然後獲取政治利益而已啦這其實很沒水準啦所以但是呢不管怎麼樣我覺得我對言論自由的追求\n\n59\n00:22:55,530 --> 00:23:15,629\n還是一樣百分之百言論自由但是我不容許任何政府或個人假借民主的名義或抗中保台口號的名義或國家安全的名義在沒有法律授權法律明確性的情況下去侵害人民在憲法第11條的言論自由的基本人權\n\n60\n00:23:16,144 --> 00:23:38,963\n那就是看誰是人民啊我們現在這次處理的幾位他們都不是我們那個副主委我已經說了我一開始就說我不講個案那我剛所謂的百分之百的言論自由我絕對沒有排除掉所謂的人民所以我跟你講我從年輕二十幾歲的時候就在\n\n61\n00:23:39,824 --> 00:24:05,819\n十幾歲跟著野百合學院二十幾歲跟著廢書刑法一百條我一路這樣走過來那我們以前追求的是什麼對啊那今天鄭楠榮變成很多人的提款機但是他還是我心裡面我覺得我堅持的理想啊那你今天你要扣這個帽子扣別人講一些有沒有我不是不太能接受但我也尊重各位的的發言的內容鄭楠榮是前輩啊但是他並不是神主派\n\n62\n00:24:06,826 --> 00:24:11,486\n我沒有說要繩子款我說大家不要把它當作提款機來用好那謝謝各位\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n570\t15168\t我們麻煩教育部正次 陸委會副主委 法務部長還有司法院廳長教育部陸委會 法務部還有司法院\n19278\t45066\t好那首先我先破題的簡單講一下就是因為我們其實這段時間我受夠了很多不明的不明的這些網軍總之對我們的發言斷章取義所以我先在這邊先說明一下第一個我今天所有的質詢都不針對個案那你們也請不要用個案來回答我第二個對於所有\n46414\t63634\t只要是對我們這塊土地的有侵害的外來武力我們都予以反抗我們一定都會出來反抗而且所有希望以武力來顛覆我們這塊土地的我們都予以譴責但是呢 回過頭來我講到\n65373\t85738\t重點但是有些言論雖然不被我們所能接受但是不代表國家就可以動用公權力來加以限制他發言的理由也就是有一些言論他不被我們喜歡但是是不是有到達違法或用法律加以處罰其實這兩個東西是完全不同層次的\n86678\t102278\t的概念所以我自己在上個會期的時候我有提到在1990年的時候我自己參加野百合學運一直到後續也有廢紙動力勘案次序臨時條款然後後來我再去參加了廢除刑法100條的活動其實\n104961\t127032\t我一直在追求的就是所謂的百分之百言論自由所以今天很多民進黨委員來這邊講說鄭南榮多麼啟發他其實鄭南榮一直他的言論他所謂的言論自由一直是我追求的一個重點所以他所說的在面對槍口之下他也是追求百分之百言論自由或是像楊兆所說的\n128192\t144276\t鄭南榮到死他都還是堅守百分之百言論自由我想說這些東西現在目前在有一些民進黨的政客的嘴裡面其實我覺得他們是在褻瀆鄭南榮的精神我想先提一下 當年為什麼參加廢物刑法100條\n148874\t168154\t的這個活動當然當時那個主要原因是因為當時我的學校導師是劉初之教授他先生是林三田那林三田本來就是廢族刑法100條的領先人所以一直以來我們都是追隨著他們而且我們希望當時流亡在海外的異議分子能夠平安的回到台灣我們當時是這樣\n169756\t195395\t我們的都在追求這個甚至在刑法100條在修正之前其他第二項根本就是一個思想犯的控制那他第一項他在修正之後也加上了許多必須要強暴脅迫的實際行為這時候才會加以限制所以我們在這麼久以前就知道要去廢除刑法100條來追求我們人民的言論自由為什麼到今天反而走回頭路\n196155\t204498\t那我想請問一下法務部跟司法院如果有人在網路上面發表說我要顛覆賴清德政府請問這有沒有成立內亂罪這應該很簡單吧請問這有沒有成立內亂罪\n221072\t250407\t好 就是沒有成立內亂罪嘛 對不對我想這結論 我想這非常簡單啦所以呢 其實賴總統他前天說的他說任何鼓吹剝奪台灣人民自由主張讓中華民國台灣消失的倡議都不是台灣社會能夠接受的言論自由而百分之百的言論自由 更不是利用自由來消滅自由基本上啊 我大部分還是認同賴總統說的話畢竟沒有國家了 那大家也就無所依附了嘛\n251047\t268700\t所以講台灣消失的言論不會被主流民意所接受但是違不違法這是另外一回事我再講一次很多言論不被主流民意所接受但是違不違法是另外一個層次的問題所以呢\n271618\t299397\t我想言論自由的界限在哪裡 這個很重要我們必須告訴人民 什麼能講 什麼不能講但是政府對於這個東西 似乎是完全沒有很明確的規範就像這次法務部你們跟司法院都有提到的4至445號跟644號其實他已經講得很明確了就是說國家不可以單純因為集會遊行的團體主張共產主義或分裂國土\n300297\t325828\t不能因為主張這個就限制他們或拒絕他們集會遊行的許可所以從這個四字我們很能夠明確的了解就是所謂限制人民的言論自由它必須要有兩個要件第一個要明確所以我們法律要有明確性第二個要有立即的危險所以當有這兩個的時候你加以限制是完全正確的但是今天如果不是的情況下\n327188\t337786\t那實際不應該立法加以限制啊你只能說他是一個不入流一個不好的言論但是不至於到我們要用法律去規範他嘛所以呢\n340233\t356460\t過去民進黨追求100%研究結果 但到今天似乎又變了那我再請教一下教育部政次我想請教一下 部長最近的發言他認為說 教育人員在教學的時候要讓青少年具有國家主權的意識要確保國家認同\n359941\t379996\t我跟你說我認同這一句話因為我從小我爸爸就告訴我叫我做到兩件事愛國還有孝順這我公開講過很多次我爸從小就叫我這兩件事一定要做到所以我對於國家認同對於愛國我是非常重視這個行為好那我請教一下部長這麼說那鄭次郭想請教你\n382458\t409247\t今天你們要求老師跟學生要這麼做要求老師要這麼宣導那我請教您一個問題所謂的國家認同是一憲法所講的中華民國還是二兩岸人民關係所講的台灣地區以及大陸地區或是三台獨就是台灣獨立主權獨立的台灣國還是四蔡英文政府她所說的堅持維持現狀的台灣還是五\n412443\t437815\t小時候課本寫了做個堂堂正任中國人請問這五個是哪一個叫做是我們的國家認同我想部長已經講得很清楚那你等於沒回答我他就是中華民國的教育工作者你等於沒回答我請問一下這五個是哪一個我講一個最簡單您今天貴為次長您也是政治人物出身我非常尊重您但是如果貴為政次而且是政治人物出身的人都無法告訴我所謂的國家認同\n440333\t467558\t愛國到底愛的是什麼樣的到底是什麼我剛剛講的就五個這五個也是非常明確第一個憲法第二個兩岸人民關係條例第三個大家講的台獨第四個蔡英文前總統所說的維持現狀的台灣第五個還是小時候課本說的台灣真正的中國人這五個是哪一個我要效忠哪一個或我要認同哪一個那個才叫做符合教育部部長所說的國家認同請教次長他有講到憲法嗎\n470054\t480432\t所以呢我剛才在報告的時候也有提到我們享用的言論自由是根據憲法第二條這五個選項很簡單嘛憲法上現在是中華民國嘛\n482430\t505407\t所以今天你說的是你認為部長所說的國家認同是憲法的中華民國我以為你秀出來就有提到不要忘掉身為一個中華民國的教育工作者所以這個講得很清楚沒有問題沒關係我剛剛就講有五個但是今天似乎實際上在政治圈大家不是這麼講\n507729\t530686\t還有人大言不慚的說中華民國憲法是災難本來一開始說中華民國是災難後來趕快改口說中華民國憲法是災難那我這不講誰大家也都知道所以現在其實我跟各位報告搞到今天所謂的國家認同都只能講台灣你不能講別的你講台灣以外就叫做中共同路人所以打球打贏的台灣隊打輸的叫中華隊\n531907\t555689\t這只會出現在荒謬的台灣才有這個狀況其實這很離譜但是我還是跟各位說我不討厭民進黨的人我不痛恨他們但是我超級熱愛這塊土地所以我認為我就是熱愛這塊土地所以我從小就認為愛國是一件很重要的事情可是你今天反而混淆了我到底我的國家認同要在哪裡那如果說今天連\n557156\t572496\t上面的長官們自己都搞不清楚都無法確定了或是說的跟做的不一樣就像部長在喊說台灣國的什麼什麼這是部長 不是教育部長啦連劉部長都說了我們台灣國怎麼樣那我要\n573601\t588458\t老師怎麼教學生 要學生怎麼遵循就我剛剛講的 這各種都是不一樣啊所以 好吧 反正這個不是教育部講 所以我也不適合問次長說有部長在台上喊台灣國 這個大家想法是怎麼樣\n589919\t615433\t所以我覺得這種搞下去台灣變成很對立的社會似乎你不認同民進黨口中所說的那個國家的那個概念或他的定義那你就是中共同路人事實上我剛剛講的我不恨民進黨員我以前也很堅持的支持民進黨的青年情障礙鄉土但是今天他變了是他變了不是我變了\n617588\t642235\t他對這塊的土地熱愛 其實我是已經看不到了那我再跟各位報告一件事情DPPS前幾天的網路投票其實有77.4%的人認為戴總統上任之後言論自由被限縮很多9.3%認為被限縮了一些也就是說超過8成5的民眾感受言論自由的限制是比過去更嚴重這個請給各位參考一下\n643215\t660949\t這個不是我所追求的百分之百言論自由也不是我一生尊崇的鄭南榮他的言論自由所會引導出今天台灣的這個現狀所以一些言論即使在言論的市場不被大家喜歡但是不代表它就是違法\n661897\t683762\t不被人民喜歡的言論他也不代表就會動搖台灣現在的安全跟國際的現狀所以我想這給各位講一下那我再請教一個問題法務部跟司法院我請教一下我國目前有沒有規範鼓吹戰爭罪請回答\n690134\t700839\t這份委員報告,那個現刑法有可能涉及到鼓吹戰爭的言論,包括就是仇恨性的言論,這個譬如說刑法100條、101條、103條、309、310、還有153條,還有涉違法的63條。309、310,公然侮辱舉報。這就是妨害名譽這部分,都有涉及仇恨性的言論。\n714192\t740649\t誹謗跟供罕無辱這是仇恨性的言論這跟骨髓戰爭有什麼關係309、310不可能啦骨髓戰爭的言論這部分骨髓戰爭的言論的話我們看可以更明確化但是有涉及的條文是有這些跟仇恨性的言論部長你這樣講太包沾包海了這講出去會被念法律的人笑啦我說實在話我想這個我們就可能我說可能有涉及到這部分仇恨性言論因為這個戰爭有這些仇恨性的言論\n741709\t766489\t這個講仇恨性能夠講一個就是戰爭簡單來說就是譬如說有人喊武統這個我國目前到底有沒有制定這個法律有沒有那還是廳長如果部長你總是搞不清楚那廳長呢我不會搞不清楚啦那個我已經好那你跟我說哪一條你再跟我說一次哪309、310講出去線上看到的法官檢察官應該會笑出聲音那我們就先說在那個整個一個內亂外患通某開戰這部分嘛\n770017\t786850\t這跟鼓吹沒有關係啊我來跟各位報告 至少我自己基本認為啦目前我國並沒有就鼓吹戰爭這個行為加以立法那我再跟各位報告一下 我國是成文法國家\n787791\t812637\t以及我國的罪行法定原則也就是你的行為除非法律有規範他犯罪否則基本上他是不會構成犯罪所以我國是堅守罪行法定主義以及純文法國家的這個概念那今天有兩位民進黨的委員一位省姓委員一位無姓委員他們兩位一直在講公正公約二十條他說某人\n813297\t839948\t鼓吹 蔣無統這個部分呢怎麼會沒有違法這個公正公約第20條就他們也念了公正公約20條的條文結果他念的條文跟他講的解釋完全不一樣他連法律都沒有搞懂公正公約20條任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳應以法律禁止之也就是說公正公約20條他所刻意的義務是國家必須訂出法律\n841048\t868951\t是這個規定國家必須定出法律而不是告訴人民說你講這個就是違法什麼情況下會違法就是當國家定出法律之後人民加以違法那叫做違法這叫做所以這就回到我剛說的這是我國的罪行法定主義是這樣所以呢今天這兩位委員一直提公正公約二十條所以今天有人在網路上面講梧桐兩個字這個是違法\n870472\t898032\t其實這是完全錯誤的概念這個也是對於法律認知的思考的跳躍這個邏輯完全中斷思考的跳躍才會發生這個說法所以公正公約二十條第一項我們該檢討的是什麼是過去的立法院以及過去不管藍綠執政的行政單位為什麼沒有趕快把這個法律立出來為什麼沒有2009年公正公約就已經生效了為什麼\n899893\t927906\t十幾年下來國家卻沒有把這條法律立出來結果今天有某一個人他在網路上面講了這句話之後你就說這個違反公正公約20條可是公正公約20條他是要求國家去立這個法律我想這很明確那至於說有一些人他要思考跳躍的去解釋法律那我就予以尊重所以又回到我剛剛說的我國目前沒有鼓吹戰爭罪嘛\n928766\t950576\t至少從構成要件來看 有嗎好 那不管有沒有 那我再請教一下有網紅啊 在他的歌曲裡面 就是要求中國大陸求你趕快打過來 你到底打不打那請問一下 這個有沒有違反 違反法律規定這個是不是鼓吹戰爭我想請教兩位\n956052\t984695\t好吧 那沒有辦法回答就算了我想我們不能always雙標在面對國人尤其是法律跟制度應該長治久安你一方面可以說有人在講武統或武裝那個我也很討厭那個言論我也絕對譴責講這些話的人但是他在法律上面要怎麼去定位法律是不是要符合法律明確性告訴大家言論自由的界限在哪裡而不是今天你非我族類 那你就違法\n985456\t1004038\t你是我同一掛人所以你今天你講叫中國大陸趕快打過來你到底打不打啊就沒事所以我在這邊必須點出這個從法律的角度來告訴大家公正公約第一個被很多政客自己隨便亂誤解公正公約它刻意的對象是國家以及行政機關、立法機關\n1005459\t1030873\t那今天我國只要還沒有完成這個立法程序之前人民你不能說他這個行為違法你可以說他不道德你可以說他這樣不好你可以說我譴責你這個說法但是你沒辦法說他違法我在這邊跟各位做這樣的報告好那我這次跟法務部要資料部長啊我給你請教一下說啊到底你這個鼓吹戰爭罪什麼時候要立法你們給我的回覆是研修小組在113年4月2號已經開過有開過一次\n1034395\t1046486\t那現在一年多了啊那到現在到底是怎麼樣卻沒看到第二個我跟你要資料你又給我回覆說不提供會議紀錄因為依據政府資訊公開法18條第一項第三款這個\n1050478\t1067393\t這個研修紀錄是不能公開的但是請你看一下那一條有一個但書那一條的但書就是跟公益有必要的時候得公開那我今天覺得這個東西跟我們國人言論自由的範圍有非常大的關聯性跟公益也有關聯性\n1068334\t1083146\t甚至一個人他到底在網路上面能講什麼不能講什麼或者是有人講被辦有人講沒事那到底範圍界限在哪裡這毫不明確所以我還是認為說下次我還是會形容跟你們一樣但是我想說如果你再跟我說這個\n1085968\t1111826\t你要提這個政府資訊公開法來不給我的話我想說這個跟公益有關我還是希望你們能夠公開另外一年多了這東西到現在沒有進度這也是我想要點出來讓大家知道法務部這一塊你就是怠惰在處理這個事情最後我想請 不好意思喔耽誤到大家的時間最後我想請問一下那個陸委會\n1113686\t1142471\t陸委會我有拜讀你們的資料還有剛剛陸委會主委也有提到剛剛在做口頭報告的時候也有提到一個點就是說你說陸配的言論自由程度跟公民不同因為要有較高的管制那這個我不評論我都予以尊重因為你說這個是境外敵對勢力等等的這個說法所以必須對他們有高強度的管制我先不評論這件事情我想要請教你的那所謂的陸配的定義\n1144371\t1171802\t第一個如果只有居留權的陸配才要高強度的管制嗎還是第二個取得身份證後的陸配也要高強度的管制第三個如果是中國大陸出生成長受教育但是事後入籍他國或港澳然後再與我國人結婚那這三種請問一下這個管制上面是一致適用高強度管制還是有所區別請教副主委\n1173393\t1195606\t如果他只有居留權 他能夠住在台灣是因為我們特許他我們給他特許讓你住在台灣 但我們可以隨時取消這個特許權所以他的管制就會比較更高一點譬如說他不一定要居留 也許他是來停留或者是來觀光\n1196869\t1217020\t他講出類似可以會違背國家利益或是干擾社會秩序的言論那我們就不歡迎那他如果拿到身份證或是定居但我們在定居留許可辦法之中也有相對的條文至於你說第三種狀況是說他\n1221903\t1246013\t中國大陸人士他拿到美國籍然後跟台灣人結婚那我們會看他說拿到美國籍或是拿到其他國家國籍有多久的時間基本上我們會用五年來算就是說你拿到其他國家的國籍五年之後我才四年之後我才確認你可能已經放棄了中國的國籍了這樣\n1249358\t1257134\t第一個只有居留證的陸配你們認為是要比較高強度的管制那有身份證的我剛剛沒有聽清楚有身份證的話你們怎麼認定\n1258086\t1283501\t有身份證的話 因為我們在定居留尋可辦法裡面也有相應的條文跟這個居留的部分是有點類似所以這個部分應該是這麼說就是台灣跟大陸之間它的狀況很特殊所以我們在兩岸條例從一開始設計的時候它就跟國籍法不一樣\n1284221\t1313604\t我們在處理兩岸人民關係的時候跟台灣跟其他國家是不同我也認同我的意思是說我都沒有意見啦就是說台灣跟中國大陸之間的關係很特別這個我OK但是我的意思是說不管怎麼樣對人民我們的任何行政處分都要明確嘛法律明確性原則這是一個法律最基本的概念所以呢我現在確認的是第一個有居留權的陸配這個管制上面會比較嚴格那我剛剛請教的如果您有身份證的當初的陸配\n1314224\t1338871\t那這個要不要嚴格我只是要問這個問題而已應該是這樣講就是我們既然給他身分證原則上我們是把他當作是中華民國國民就是他的言論自由的審查程度不會像只有居留權的陸配那麼高好像得到這個有他國籍的這些就是以四年來當作判斷的標準那這個我可以了解\n1339491\t1361255\t好那最後我還是一樣就是說我提到一個我還是反對任何武統言論或者是只要有任何武力要對我們這塊土地要侵害我都願意出來對抗所以不要扣我們什麼帽子只要不認同民進黨就叫舔共沒有這種事情啦台灣是大家的台灣是我們熱愛的這塊土地不是我不認同你的邏輯那我就是\n1361855\t1373771\t那個誰的同路人我跟你講這個就是把人民二分法搞激烈對抗然後獲取政治利益而已啦這其實很沒水準啦所以但是呢不管怎麼樣我覺得我對言論自由的追求\n1375530\t1395629\t還是一樣百分之百言論自由但是我不容許任何政府或個人假借民主的名義或抗中保台口號的名義或國家安全的名義在沒有法律授權法律明確性的情況下去侵害人民在憲法第11條的言論自由的基本人權\n1396144\t1418963\t那就是看誰是人民啊我們現在這次處理的幾位 他們都不是我們那個 副主委我已經說了 我一開始就說我不講個案那我剛所謂的百分之百的言論自由我絕對沒有排除掉所謂的人民所以我跟你講 我從年輕二十幾歲的時候就在\n1419824\t1445819\t十幾歲跟著野百合學院二十幾歲跟著廢書刑法一百條我一路這樣走過來那我們以前追求的是什麼對啊那今天鄭楠榮變成很多人的提款機但是他還是我心裡面我覺得我堅持的理想啊那你今天你要扣這個帽子扣別人講一些有沒有我不是不太能接受但我也尊重各位的的發言的內容鄭楠榮是前輩啊但是他並不是神主派\n1446826\t1451486\t我沒有說要繩子款 我說大家不要把它當作提款機來用好 那謝謝各位\n","txt":"我們麻煩教育部正次 陸委會副主委 法務部長還有司法院廳長教育部陸委會 法務部還有司法院\n好那首先我先破題的簡單講一下就是因為我們其實這段時間我受夠了很多不明的不明的這些網軍總之對我們的發言斷章取義所以我先在這邊先說明一下第一個我今天所有的質詢都不針對個案那你們也請不要用個案來回答我第二個對於所有\n只要是對我們這塊土地的有侵害的外來武力我們都予以反抗我們一定都會出來反抗而且所有希望以武力來顛覆我們這塊土地的我們都予以譴責但是呢 回過頭來我講到\n重點但是有些言論雖然不被我們所能接受但是不代表國家就可以動用公權力來加以限制他發言的理由也就是有一些言論他不被我們喜歡但是是不是有到達違法或用法律加以處罰其實這兩個東西是完全不同層次的\n的概念所以我自己在上個會期的時候我有提到在1990年的時候我自己參加野百合學運一直到後續也有廢紙動力勘案次序臨時條款然後後來我再去參加了廢除刑法100條的活動其實\n我一直在追求的就是所謂的百分之百言論自由所以今天很多民進黨委員來這邊講說鄭南榮多麼啟發他其實鄭南榮一直他的言論他所謂的言論自由一直是我追求的一個重點所以他所說的在面對槍口之下他也是追求百分之百言論自由或是像楊兆所說的\n鄭南榮到死他都還是堅守百分之百言論自由我想說這些東西現在目前在有一些民進黨的政客的嘴裡面其實我覺得他們是在褻瀆鄭南榮的精神我想先提一下 當年為什麼參加廢物刑法100條\n的這個活動當然當時那個主要原因是因為當時我的學校導師是劉初之教授他先生是林三田那林三田本來就是廢族刑法100條的領先人所以一直以來我們都是追隨著他們而且我們希望當時流亡在海外的異議分子能夠平安的回到台灣我們當時是這樣\n我們的都在追求這個甚至在刑法100條在修正之前其他第二項根本就是一個思想犯的控制那他第一項他在修正之後也加上了許多必須要強暴脅迫的實際行為這時候才會加以限制所以我們在這麼久以前就知道要去廢除刑法100條來追求我們人民的言論自由為什麼到今天反而走回頭路\n那我想請問一下法務部跟司法院如果有人在網路上面發表說我要顛覆賴清德政府請問這有沒有成立內亂罪這應該很簡單吧請問這有沒有成立內亂罪\n好 就是沒有成立內亂罪嘛 對不對我想這結論 我想這非常簡單啦所以呢 其實賴總統他前天說的他說任何鼓吹剝奪台灣人民自由主張讓中華民國台灣消失的倡議都不是台灣社會能夠接受的言論自由而百分之百的言論自由 更不是利用自由來消滅自由基本上啊 我大部分還是認同賴總統說的話畢竟沒有國家了 那大家也就無所依附了嘛\n所以講台灣消失的言論不會被主流民意所接受但是違不違法這是另外一回事我再講一次很多言論不被主流民意所接受但是違不違法是另外一個層次的問題所以呢\n我想言論自由的界限在哪裡 這個很重要我們必須告訴人民 什麼能講 什麼不能講但是政府對於這個東西 似乎是完全沒有很明確的規範就像這次法務部你們跟司法院都有提到的4至445號跟644號其實他已經講得很明確了就是說國家不可以單純因為集會遊行的團體主張共產主義或分裂國土\n不能因為主張這個就限制他們或拒絕他們集會遊行的許可所以從這個四字我們很能夠明確的了解就是所謂限制人民的言論自由它必須要有兩個要件第一個要明確所以我們法律要有明確性第二個要有立即的危險所以當有這兩個的時候你加以限制是完全正確的但是今天如果不是的情況下\n那實際不應該立法加以限制啊你只能說他是一個不入流一個不好的言論但是不至於到我們要用法律去規範他嘛所以呢\n過去民進黨追求100%研究結果 但到今天似乎又變了那我再請教一下教育部政次我想請教一下 部長最近的發言他認為說 教育人員在教學的時候要讓青少年具有國家主權的意識要確保國家認同\n我跟你說我認同這一句話因為我從小我爸爸就告訴我叫我做到兩件事愛國還有孝順這我公開講過很多次我爸從小就叫我這兩件事一定要做到所以我對於國家認同對於愛國我是非常重視這個行為好那我請教一下部長這麼說那鄭次郭想請教你\n今天你們要求老師跟學生要這麼做要求老師要這麼宣導那我請教您一個問題所謂的國家認同是一憲法所講的中華民國還是二兩岸人民關係所講的台灣地區以及大陸地區或是三台獨就是台灣獨立主權獨立的台灣國還是四蔡英文政府她所說的堅持維持現狀的台灣還是五\n小時候課本寫了做個堂堂正任中國人請問這五個是哪一個叫做是我們的國家認同我想部長已經講得很清楚那你等於沒回答我他就是中華民國的教育工作者你等於沒回答我請問一下這五個是哪一個我講一個最簡單您今天貴為次長您也是政治人物出身我非常尊重您但是如果貴為政次而且是政治人物出身的人都無法告訴我所謂的國家認同\n愛國到底愛的是什麼樣的到底是什麼我剛剛講的就五個這五個也是非常明確第一個憲法第二個兩岸人民關係條例第三個大家講的台獨第四個蔡英文前總統所說的維持現狀的台灣第五個還是小時候課本說的台灣真正的中國人這五個是哪一個我要效忠哪一個或我要認同哪一個那個才叫做符合教育部部長所說的國家認同請教次長他有講到憲法嗎\n所以呢我剛才在報告的時候也有提到我們享用的言論自由是根據憲法第二條這五個選項很簡單嘛憲法上現在是中華民國嘛\n所以今天你說的是你認為部長所說的國家認同是憲法的中華民國我以為你秀出來就有提到不要忘掉身為一個中華民國的教育工作者所以這個講得很清楚沒有問題沒關係我剛剛就講有五個但是今天似乎實際上在政治圈大家不是這麼講\n還有人大言不慚的說中華民國憲法是災難本來一開始說中華民國是災難後來趕快改口說中華民國憲法是災難那我這不講誰大家也都知道所以現在其實我跟各位報告搞到今天所謂的國家認同都只能講台灣你不能講別的你講台灣以外就叫做中共同路人所以打球打贏的台灣隊打輸的叫中華隊\n這只會出現在荒謬的台灣才有這個狀況其實這很離譜但是我還是跟各位說我不討厭民進黨的人我不痛恨他們但是我超級熱愛這塊土地所以我認為我就是熱愛這塊土地所以我從小就認為愛國是一件很重要的事情可是你今天反而混淆了我到底我的國家認同要在哪裡那如果說今天連\n上面的長官們自己都搞不清楚都無法確定了或是說的跟做的不一樣就像部長在喊說台灣國的什麼什麼這是部長 不是教育部長啦連劉部長都說了我們台灣國怎麼樣那我要\n老師怎麼教學生 要學生怎麼遵循就我剛剛講的 這各種都是不一樣啊所以 好吧 反正這個不是教育部講 所以我也不適合問次長說有部長在台上喊台灣國 這個大家想法是怎麼樣\n所以我覺得這種搞下去台灣變成很對立的社會似乎你不認同民進黨口中所說的那個國家的那個概念或他的定義那你就是中共同路人事實上我剛剛講的我不恨民進黨員我以前也很堅持的支持民進黨的青年情障礙鄉土但是今天他變了是他變了不是我變了\n他對這塊的土地熱愛 其實我是已經看不到了那我再跟各位報告一件事情DPPS前幾天的網路投票其實有77.4%的人認為戴總統上任之後言論自由被限縮很多9.3%認為被限縮了一些也就是說超過8成5的民眾感受言論自由的限制是比過去更嚴重這個請給各位參考一下\n這個不是我所追求的百分之百言論自由也不是我一生尊崇的鄭南榮他的言論自由所會引導出今天台灣的這個現狀所以一些言論即使在言論的市場不被大家喜歡但是不代表它就是違法\n不被人民喜歡的言論他也不代表就會動搖台灣現在的安全跟國際的現狀所以我想這給各位講一下那我再請教一個問題法務部跟司法院我請教一下我國目前有沒有規範鼓吹戰爭罪請回答\n這份委員報告,那個現刑法有可能涉及到鼓吹戰爭的言論,包括就是仇恨性的言論,這個譬如說刑法100條、101條、103條、309、310、還有153條,還有涉違法的63條。309、310,公然侮辱舉報。這就是妨害名譽這部分,都有涉及仇恨性的言論。\n誹謗跟供罕無辱這是仇恨性的言論這跟骨髓戰爭有什麼關係309、310不可能啦骨髓戰爭的言論這部分骨髓戰爭的言論的話我們看可以更明確化但是有涉及的條文是有這些跟仇恨性的言論部長你這樣講太包沾包海了這講出去會被念法律的人笑啦我說實在話我想這個我們就可能我說可能有涉及到這部分仇恨性言論因為這個戰爭有這些仇恨性的言論\n這個講仇恨性能夠講一個就是戰爭簡單來說就是譬如說有人喊武統這個我國目前到底有沒有制定這個法律有沒有那還是廳長如果部長你總是搞不清楚那廳長呢我不會搞不清楚啦那個我已經好那你跟我說哪一條你再跟我說一次哪309、310講出去線上看到的法官檢察官應該會笑出聲音那我們就先說在那個整個一個內亂外患通某開戰這部分嘛\n這跟鼓吹沒有關係啊我來跟各位報告 至少我自己基本認為啦目前我國並沒有就鼓吹戰爭這個行為加以立法那我再跟各位報告一下 我國是成文法國家\n以及我國的罪行法定原則也就是你的行為除非法律有規範他犯罪否則基本上他是不會構成犯罪所以我國是堅守罪行法定主義以及純文法國家的這個概念那今天有兩位民進黨的委員一位省姓委員一位無姓委員他們兩位一直在講公正公約二十條他說某人\n鼓吹 蔣無統這個部分呢怎麼會沒有違法這個公正公約第20條就他們也念了公正公約20條的條文結果他念的條文跟他講的解釋完全不一樣他連法律都沒有搞懂公正公約20條任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳應以法律禁止之也就是說公正公約20條他所刻意的義務是國家必須訂出法律\n是這個規定國家必須定出法律而不是告訴人民說你講這個就是違法什麼情況下會違法就是當國家定出法律之後人民加以違法那叫做違法這叫做所以這就回到我剛說的這是我國的罪行法定主義是這樣所以呢今天這兩位委員一直提公正公約二十條所以今天有人在網路上面講梧桐兩個字這個是違法\n其實這是完全錯誤的概念這個也是對於法律認知的思考的跳躍這個邏輯完全中斷思考的跳躍才會發生這個說法所以公正公約二十條第一項我們該檢討的是什麼是過去的立法院以及過去不管藍綠執政的行政單位為什麼沒有趕快把這個法律立出來為什麼沒有2009年公正公約就已經生效了為什麼\n十幾年下來國家卻沒有把這條法律立出來結果今天有某一個人他在網路上面講了這句話之後你就說這個違反公正公約20條可是公正公約20條他是要求國家去立這個法律我想這很明確那至於說有一些人他要思考跳躍的去解釋法律那我就予以尊重所以又回到我剛剛說的我國目前沒有鼓吹戰爭罪嘛\n至少從構成要件來看 有嗎好 那不管有沒有 那我再請教一下有網紅啊 在他的歌曲裡面 就是要求中國大陸求你趕快打過來 你到底打不打那請問一下 這個有沒有違反 違反法律規定這個是不是鼓吹戰爭我想請教兩位\n好吧 那沒有辦法回答就算了我想我們不能always雙標在面對國人尤其是法律跟制度應該長治久安你一方面可以說有人在講武統或武裝那個我也很討厭那個言論我也絕對譴責講這些話的人但是他在法律上面要怎麼去定位法律是不是要符合法律明確性告訴大家言論自由的界限在哪裡而不是今天你非我族類 那你就違法\n你是我同一掛人所以你今天你講叫中國大陸趕快打過來你到底打不打啊就沒事所以我在這邊必須點出這個從法律的角度來告訴大家公正公約第一個被很多政客自己隨便亂誤解公正公約它刻意的對象是國家以及行政機關、立法機關\n那今天我國只要還沒有完成這個立法程序之前人民你不能說他這個行為違法你可以說他不道德你可以說他這樣不好你可以說我譴責你這個說法但是你沒辦法說他違法我在這邊跟各位做這樣的報告好那我這次跟法務部要資料部長啊我給你請教一下說啊到底你這個鼓吹戰爭罪什麼時候要立法你們給我的回覆是研修小組在113年4月2號已經開過有開過一次\n那現在一年多了啊那到現在到底是怎麼樣卻沒看到第二個我跟你要資料你又給我回覆說不提供會議紀錄因為依據政府資訊公開法18條第一項第三款這個\n這個研修紀錄是不能公開的但是請你看一下那一條有一個但書那一條的但書就是跟公益有必要的時候得公開那我今天覺得這個東西跟我們國人言論自由的範圍有非常大的關聯性跟公益也有關聯性\n甚至一個人他到底在網路上面能講什麼不能講什麼或者是有人講被辦有人講沒事那到底範圍界限在哪裡這毫不明確所以我還是認為說下次我還是會形容跟你們一樣但是我想說如果你再跟我說這個\n你要提這個政府資訊公開法來不給我的話我想說這個跟公益有關我還是希望你們能夠公開另外一年多了這東西到現在沒有進度這也是我想要點出來讓大家知道法務部這一塊你就是怠惰在處理這個事情最後我想請 不好意思喔耽誤到大家的時間最後我想請問一下那個陸委會\n陸委會我有拜讀你們的資料還有剛剛陸委會主委也有提到剛剛在做口頭報告的時候也有提到一個點就是說你說陸配的言論自由程度跟公民不同因為要有較高的管制那這個我不評論我都予以尊重因為你說這個是境外敵對勢力等等的這個說法所以必須對他們有高強度的管制我先不評論這件事情我想要請教你的那所謂的陸配的定義\n第一個如果只有居留權的陸配才要高強度的管制嗎還是第二個取得身份證後的陸配也要高強度的管制第三個如果是中國大陸出生成長受教育但是事後入籍他國或港澳然後再與我國人結婚那這三種請問一下這個管制上面是一致適用高強度管制還是有所區別請教副主委\n如果他只有居留權 他能夠住在台灣是因為我們特許他我們給他特許讓你住在台灣 但我們可以隨時取消這個特許權所以他的管制就會比較更高一點譬如說他不一定要居留 也許他是來停留或者是來觀光\n他講出類似可以會違背國家利益或是干擾社會秩序的言論那我們就不歡迎那他如果拿到身份證或是定居但我們在定居留許可辦法之中也有相對的條文至於你說第三種狀況是說他\n中國大陸人士他拿到美國籍然後跟台灣人結婚那我們會看他說拿到美國籍或是拿到其他國家國籍有多久的時間基本上我們會用五年來算就是說你拿到其他國家的國籍五年之後我才四年之後我才確認你可能已經放棄了中國的國籍了這樣\n第一個只有居留證的陸配你們認為是要比較高強度的管制那有身份證的我剛剛沒有聽清楚有身份證的話你們怎麼認定\n有身份證的話 因為我們在定居留尋可辦法裡面也有相應的條文跟這個居留的部分是有點類似所以這個部分應該是這麼說就是台灣跟大陸之間它的狀況很特殊所以我們在兩岸條例從一開始設計的時候它就跟國籍法不一樣\n我們在處理兩岸人民關係的時候跟台灣跟其他國家是不同我也認同我的意思是說我都沒有意見啦就是說台灣跟中國大陸之間的關係很特別這個我OK但是我的意思是說不管怎麼樣對人民我們的任何行政處分都要明確嘛法律明確性原則這是一個法律最基本的概念所以呢我現在確認的是第一個有居留權的陸配這個管制上面會比較嚴格那我剛剛請教的如果您有身份證的當初的陸配\n那這個要不要嚴格我只是要問這個問題而已應該是這樣講就是我們既然給他身分證原則上我們是把他當作是中華民國國民就是他的言論自由的審查程度不會像只有居留權的陸配那麼高好像得到這個有他國籍的這些就是以四年來當作判斷的標準那這個我可以了解\n好那最後我還是一樣就是說我提到一個我還是反對任何武統言論或者是只要有任何武力要對我們這塊土地要侵害我都願意出來對抗所以不要扣我們什麼帽子只要不認同民進黨就叫舔共沒有這種事情啦台灣是大家的台灣是我們熱愛的這塊土地不是我不認同你的邏輯那我就是\n那個誰的同路人我跟你講這個就是把人民二分法搞激烈對抗然後獲取政治利益而已啦這其實很沒水準啦所以但是呢不管怎麼樣我覺得我對言論自由的追求\n還是一樣百分之百言論自由但是我不容許任何政府或個人假借民主的名義或抗中保台口號的名義或國家安全的名義在沒有法律授權法律明確性的情況下去侵害人民在憲法第11條的言論自由的基本人權\n那就是看誰是人民啊我們現在這次處理的幾位 他們都不是我們那個 副主委我已經說了 我一開始就說我不講個案那我剛所謂的百分之百的言論自由我絕對沒有排除掉所謂的人民所以我跟你講 我從年輕二十幾歲的時候就在\n十幾歲跟著野百合學院二十幾歲跟著廢書刑法一百條我一路這樣走過來那我們以前追求的是什麼對啊那今天鄭楠榮變成很多人的提款機但是他還是我心裡面我覺得我堅持的理想啊那你今天你要扣這個帽子扣別人講一些有沒有我不是不太能接受但我也尊重各位的的發言的內容鄭楠榮是前輩啊但是他並不是神主派\n我沒有說要繩子款 我說大家不要把它當作提款機來用好 那謝謝各位\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.570 --> 00:15.168\n我們麻煩教育部正次陸委會副主委法務部長還有司法院廳長教育部陸委會法務部還有司法院\n\n00:19.278 --> 00:45.066\n好那首先我先破題的簡單講一下就是因為我們其實這段時間我受夠了很多不明的不明的這些網軍總之對我們的發言斷章取義所以我先在這邊先說明一下第一個我今天所有的質詢都不針對個案那你們也請不要用個案來回答我第二個對於所有\n\n00:46.414 --> 01:03.634\n只要是對我們這塊土地的有侵害的外來武力我們都予以反抗我們一定都會出來反抗而且所有希望以武力來顛覆我們這塊土地的我們都予以譴責但是呢回過頭來我講到\n\n01:05.373 --> 01:25.738\n重點但是有些言論雖然不被我們所能接受但是不代表國家就可以動用公權力來加以限制他發言的理由也就是有一些言論他不被我們喜歡但是是不是有到達違法或用法律加以處罰其實這兩個東西是完全不同層次的\n\n01:26.678 --> 01:42.278\n的概念所以我自己在上個會期的時候我有提到在1990年的時候我自己參加野百合學運一直到後續也有廢紙動力勘案次序臨時條款然後後來我再去參加了廢除刑法100條的活動其實\n\n01:44.961 --> 02:07.032\n我一直在追求的就是所謂的百分之百言論自由所以今天很多民進黨委員來這邊講說鄭南榮多麼啟發他其實鄭南榮一直他的言論他所謂的言論自由一直是我追求的一個重點所以他所說的在面對槍口之下他也是追求百分之百言論自由或是像楊兆所說的\n\n02:08.192 --> 02:24.276\n鄭南榮到死他都還是堅守百分之百言論自由我想說這些東西現在目前在有一些民進黨的政客的嘴裡面其實我覺得他們是在褻瀆鄭南榮的精神我想先提一下當年為什麼參加廢物刑法100條\n\n02:28.874 --> 02:48.154\n的這個活動當然當時那個主要原因是因為當時我的學校導師是劉初之教授他先生是林三田那林三田本來就是廢族刑法100條的領先人所以一直以來我們都是追隨著他們而且我們希望當時流亡在海外的異議分子能夠平安的回到台灣我們當時是這樣\n\n02:49.756 --> 03:15.395\n我們的都在追求這個甚至在刑法100條在修正之前其他第二項根本就是一個思想犯的控制那他第一項他在修正之後也加上了許多必須要強暴脅迫的實際行為這時候才會加以限制所以我們在這麼久以前就知道要去廢除刑法100條來追求我們人民的言論自由為什麼到今天反而走回頭路\n\n03:16.155 --> 03:24.498\n那我想請問一下法務部跟司法院如果有人在網路上面發表說我要顛覆賴清德政府請問這有沒有成立內亂罪這應該很簡單吧請問這有沒有成立內亂罪\n\n03:41.072 --> 04:10.407\n好就是沒有成立內亂罪嘛對不對我想這結論我想這非常簡單啦所以呢其實賴總統他前天說的他說任何鼓吹剝奪台灣人民自由主張讓中華民國台灣消失的倡議都不是台灣社會能夠接受的言論自由而百分之百的言論自由更不是利用自由來消滅自由基本上啊我大部分還是認同賴總統說的話畢竟沒有國家了那大家也就無所依附了嘛\n\n04:11.047 --> 04:28.700\n所以講台灣消失的言論不會被主流民意所接受但是違不違法這是另外一回事我再講一次很多言論不被主流民意所接受但是違不違法是另外一個層次的問題所以呢\n\n04:31.618 --> 04:59.397\n我想言論自由的界限在哪裡這個很重要我們必須告訴人民什麼能講什麼不能講但是政府對於這個東西似乎是完全沒有很明確的規範就像這次法務部你們跟司法院都有提到的4至445號跟644號其實他已經講得很明確了就是說國家不可以單純因為集會遊行的團體主張共產主義或分裂國土\n\n05:00.297 --> 05:25.828\n不能因為主張這個就限制他們或拒絕他們集會遊行的許可所以從這個四字我們很能夠明確的了解就是所謂限制人民的言論自由它必須要有兩個要件第一個要明確所以我們法律要有明確性第二個要有立即的危險所以當有這兩個的時候你加以限制是完全正確的但是今天如果不是的情況下\n\n05:27.188 --> 05:37.786\n那實際不應該立法加以限制啊你只能說他是一個不入流一個不好的言論但是不至於到我們要用法律去規範他嘛所以呢\n\n05:40.233 --> 05:56.460\n過去民進黨追求100%研究結果但到今天似乎又變了那我再請教一下教育部政次我想請教一下部長最近的發言他認為說教育人員在教學的時候要讓青少年具有國家主權的意識要確保國家認同\n\n05:59.941 --> 06:19.996\n我跟你說我認同這一句話因為我從小我爸爸就告訴我叫我做到兩件事愛國還有孝順這我公開講過很多次我爸從小就叫我這兩件事一定要做到所以我對於國家認同對於愛國我是非常重視這個行為好那我請教一下部長這麼說那鄭次郭想請教你\n\n06:22.458 --> 06:49.247\n今天你們要求老師跟學生要這麼做要求老師要這麼宣導那我請教您一個問題所謂的國家認同是一憲法所講的中華民國還是二兩岸人民關係所講的台灣地區以及大陸地區或是三台獨就是台灣獨立主權獨立的台灣國還是四蔡英文政府她所說的堅持維持現狀的台灣還是五\n\n06:52.443 --> 07:17.815\n小時候課本寫了做個堂堂正任中國人請問這五個是哪一個叫做是我們的國家認同我想部長已經講得很清楚那你等於沒回答我他就是中華民國的教育工作者你等於沒回答我請問一下這五個是哪一個我講一個最簡單您今天貴為次長您也是政治人物出身我非常尊重您但是如果貴為政次而且是政治人物出身的人都無法告訴我所謂的國家認同\n\n07:20.333 --> 07:47.558\n愛國到底愛的是什麼樣的到底是什麼我剛剛講的就五個這五個也是非常明確第一個憲法第二個兩岸人民關係條例第三個大家講的台獨第四個蔡英文前總統所說的維持現狀的台灣第五個還是小時候課本說的台灣真正的中國人這五個是哪一個我要效忠哪一個或我要認同哪一個那個才叫做符合教育部部長所說的國家認同請教次長他有講到憲法嗎\n\n07:50.054 --> 08:00.432\n所以呢我剛才在報告的時候也有提到我們享用的言論自由是根據憲法第二條這五個選項很簡單嘛憲法上現在是中華民國嘛\n\n08:02.430 --> 08:25.407\n所以今天你說的是你認為部長所說的國家認同是憲法的中華民國我以為你秀出來就有提到不要忘掉身為一個中華民國的教育工作者所以這個講得很清楚沒有問題沒關係我剛剛就講有五個但是今天似乎實際上在政治圈大家不是這麼講\n\n08:27.729 --> 08:50.686\n還有人大言不慚的說中華民國憲法是災難本來一開始說中華民國是災難後來趕快改口說中華民國憲法是災難那我這不講誰大家也都知道所以現在其實我跟各位報告搞到今天所謂的國家認同都只能講台灣你不能講別的你講台灣以外就叫做中共同路人所以打球打贏的台灣隊打輸的叫中華隊\n\n08:51.907 --> 09:15.689\n這只會出現在荒謬的台灣才有這個狀況其實這很離譜但是我還是跟各位說我不討厭民進黨的人我不痛恨他們但是我超級熱愛這塊土地所以我認為我就是熱愛這塊土地所以我從小就認為愛國是一件很重要的事情可是你今天反而混淆了我到底我的國家認同要在哪裡那如果說今天連\n\n09:17.156 --> 09:32.496\n上面的長官們自己都搞不清楚都無法確定了或是說的跟做的不一樣就像部長在喊說台灣國的什麼什麼這是部長不是教育部長啦連劉部長都說了我們台灣國怎麼樣那我要\n\n09:33.601 --> 09:48.458\n老師怎麼教學生要學生怎麼遵循就我剛剛講的這各種都是不一樣啊所以好吧反正這個不是教育部講所以我也不適合問次長說有部長在台上喊台灣國這個大家想法是怎麼樣\n\n09:49.919 --> 10:15.433\n所以我覺得這種搞下去台灣變成很對立的社會似乎你不認同民進黨口中所說的那個國家的那個概念或他的定義那你就是中共同路人事實上我剛剛講的我不恨民進黨員我以前也很堅持的支持民進黨的青年情障礙鄉土但是今天他變了是他變了不是我變了\n\n10:17.588 --> 10:42.235\n他對這塊的土地熱愛其實我是已經看不到了那我再跟各位報告一件事情DPPS前幾天的網路投票其實有77.4%的人認為戴總統上任之後言論自由被限縮很多9.3%認為被限縮了一些也就是說超過8成5的民眾感受言論自由的限制是比過去更嚴重這個請給各位參考一下\n\n10:43.215 --> 11:00.949\n這個不是我所追求的百分之百言論自由也不是我一生尊崇的鄭南榮他的言論自由所會引導出今天台灣的這個現狀所以一些言論即使在言論的市場不被大家喜歡但是不代表它就是違法\n\n11:01.897 --> 11:23.762\n不被人民喜歡的言論他也不代表就會動搖台灣現在的安全跟國際的現狀所以我想這給各位講一下那我再請教一個問題法務部跟司法院我請教一下我國目前有沒有規範鼓吹戰爭罪請回答\n\n11:30.134 --> 11:40.839\n這份委員報告,那個現刑法有可能涉及到鼓吹戰爭的言論,包括就是仇恨性的言論,這個譬如說刑法100條、101條、103條、309、310、還有153條,還有涉違法的63條。309、310,公然侮辱舉報。這就是妨害名譽這部分,都有涉及仇恨性的言論。\n\n11:54.192 --> 12:20.649\n誹謗跟供罕無辱這是仇恨性的言論這跟骨髓戰爭有什麼關係309、310不可能啦骨髓戰爭的言論這部分骨髓戰爭的言論的話我們看可以更明確化但是有涉及的條文是有這些跟仇恨性的言論部長你這樣講太包沾包海了這講出去會被念法律的人笑啦我說實在話我想這個我們就可能我說可能有涉及到這部分仇恨性言論因為這個戰爭有這些仇恨性的言論\n\n12:21.709 --> 12:46.489\n這個講仇恨性能夠講一個就是戰爭簡單來說就是譬如說有人喊武統這個我國目前到底有沒有制定這個法律有沒有那還是廳長如果部長你總是搞不清楚那廳長呢我不會搞不清楚啦那個我已經好那你跟我說哪一條你再跟我說一次哪309、310講出去線上看到的法官檢察官應該會笑出聲音那我們就先說在那個整個一個內亂外患通某開戰這部分嘛\n\n12:50.017 --> 13:06.850\n這跟鼓吹沒有關係啊我來跟各位報告至少我自己基本認為啦目前我國並沒有就鼓吹戰爭這個行為加以立法那我再跟各位報告一下我國是成文法國家\n\n13:07.791 --> 13:32.637\n以及我國的罪行法定原則也就是你的行為除非法律有規範他犯罪否則基本上他是不會構成犯罪所以我國是堅守罪行法定主義以及純文法國家的這個概念那今天有兩位民進黨的委員一位省姓委員一位無姓委員他們兩位一直在講公正公約二十條他說某人\n\n13:33.297 --> 13:59.948\n鼓吹蔣無統這個部分呢怎麼會沒有違法這個公正公約第20條就他們也念了公正公約20條的條文結果他念的條文跟他講的解釋完全不一樣他連法律都沒有搞懂公正公約20條任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳應以法律禁止之也就是說公正公約20條他所刻意的義務是國家必須訂出法律\n\n14:01.048 --> 14:28.951\n是這個規定國家必須定出法律而不是告訴人民說你講這個就是違法什麼情況下會違法就是當國家定出法律之後人民加以違法那叫做違法這叫做所以這就回到我剛說的這是我國的罪行法定主義是這樣所以呢今天這兩位委員一直提公正公約二十條所以今天有人在網路上面講梧桐兩個字這個是違法\n\n14:30.472 --> 14:58.032\n其實這是完全錯誤的概念這個也是對於法律認知的思考的跳躍這個邏輯完全中斷思考的跳躍才會發生這個說法所以公正公約二十條第一項我們該檢討的是什麼是過去的立法院以及過去不管藍綠執政的行政單位為什麼沒有趕快把這個法律立出來為什麼沒有2009年公正公約就已經生效了為什麼\n\n14:59.893 --> 15:27.906\n十幾年下來國家卻沒有把這條法律立出來結果今天有某一個人他在網路上面講了這句話之後你就說這個違反公正公約20條可是公正公約20條他是要求國家去立這個法律我想這很明確那至於說有一些人他要思考跳躍的去解釋法律那我就予以尊重所以又回到我剛剛說的我國目前沒有鼓吹戰爭罪嘛\n\n15:28.766 --> 15:50.576\n至少從構成要件來看有嗎好那不管有沒有那我再請教一下有網紅啊在他的歌曲裡面就是要求中國大陸求你趕快打過來你到底打不打那請問一下這個有沒有違反違反法律規定這個是不是鼓吹戰爭我想請教兩位\n\n15:56.052 --> 16:24.695\n好吧那沒有辦法回答就算了我想我們不能always雙標在面對國人尤其是法律跟制度應該長治久安你一方面可以說有人在講武統或武裝那個我也很討厭那個言論我也絕對譴責講這些話的人但是他在法律上面要怎麼去定位法律是不是要符合法律明確性告訴大家言論自由的界限在哪裡而不是今天你非我族類那你就違法\n\n16:25.456 --> 16:44.038\n你是我同一掛人所以你今天你講叫中國大陸趕快打過來你到底打不打啊就沒事所以我在這邊必須點出這個從法律的角度來告訴大家公正公約第一個被很多政客自己隨便亂誤解公正公約它刻意的對象是國家以及行政機關、立法機關\n\n16:45.459 --> 17:10.873\n那今天我國只要還沒有完成這個立法程序之前人民你不能說他這個行為違法你可以說他不道德你可以說他這樣不好你可以說我譴責你這個說法但是你沒辦法說他違法我在這邊跟各位做這樣的報告好那我這次跟法務部要資料部長啊我給你請教一下說啊到底你這個鼓吹戰爭罪什麼時候要立法你們給我的回覆是研修小組在113年4月2號已經開過有開過一次\n\n17:14.395 --> 17:26.486\n那現在一年多了啊那到現在到底是怎麼樣卻沒看到第二個我跟你要資料你又給我回覆說不提供會議紀錄因為依據政府資訊公開法18條第一項第三款這個\n\n17:30.478 --> 17:47.393\n這個研修紀錄是不能公開的但是請你看一下那一條有一個但書那一條的但書就是跟公益有必要的時候得公開那我今天覺得這個東西跟我們國人言論自由的範圍有非常大的關聯性跟公益也有關聯性\n\n17:48.334 --> 18:03.146\n甚至一個人他到底在網路上面能講什麼不能講什麼或者是有人講被辦有人講沒事那到底範圍界限在哪裡這毫不明確所以我還是認為說下次我還是會形容跟你們一樣但是我想說如果你再跟我說這個\n\n18:05.968 --> 18:31.826\n你要提這個政府資訊公開法來不給我的話我想說這個跟公益有關我還是希望你們能夠公開另外一年多了這東西到現在沒有進度這也是我想要點出來讓大家知道法務部這一塊你就是怠惰在處理這個事情最後我想請不好意思喔耽誤到大家的時間最後我想請問一下那個陸委會\n\n18:33.686 --> 19:02.471\n陸委會我有拜讀你們的資料還有剛剛陸委會主委也有提到剛剛在做口頭報告的時候也有提到一個點就是說你說陸配的言論自由程度跟公民不同因為要有較高的管制那這個我不評論我都予以尊重因為你說這個是境外敵對勢力等等的這個說法所以必須對他們有高強度的管制我先不評論這件事情我想要請教你的那所謂的陸配的定義\n\n19:04.371 --> 19:31.802\n第一個如果只有居留權的陸配才要高強度的管制嗎還是第二個取得身份證後的陸配也要高強度的管制第三個如果是中國大陸出生成長受教育但是事後入籍他國或港澳然後再與我國人結婚那這三種請問一下這個管制上面是一致適用高強度管制還是有所區別請教副主委\n\n19:33.393 --> 19:55.606\n如果他只有居留權他能夠住在台灣是因為我們特許他我們給他特許讓你住在台灣但我們可以隨時取消這個特許權所以他的管制就會比較更高一點譬如說他不一定要居留也許他是來停留或者是來觀光\n\n19:56.869 --> 20:17.020\n他講出類似可以會違背國家利益或是干擾社會秩序的言論那我們就不歡迎那他如果拿到身份證或是定居但我們在定居留許可辦法之中也有相對的條文至於你說第三種狀況是說他\n\n20:21.903 --> 20:46.013\n中國大陸人士他拿到美國籍然後跟台灣人結婚那我們會看他說拿到美國籍或是拿到其他國家國籍有多久的時間基本上我們會用五年來算就是說你拿到其他國家的國籍五年之後我才四年之後我才確認你可能已經放棄了中國的國籍了這樣\n\n20:49.358 --> 20:57.134\n第一個只有居留證的陸配你們認為是要比較高強度的管制那有身份證的我剛剛沒有聽清楚有身份證的話你們怎麼認定\n\n20:58.086 --> 21:23.501\n有身份證的話因為我們在定居留尋可辦法裡面也有相應的條文跟這個居留的部分是有點類似所以這個部分應該是這麼說就是台灣跟大陸之間它的狀況很特殊所以我們在兩岸條例從一開始設計的時候它就跟國籍法不一樣\n\n21:24.221 --> 21:53.604\n我們在處理兩岸人民關係的時候跟台灣跟其他國家是不同我也認同我的意思是說我都沒有意見啦就是說台灣跟中國大陸之間的關係很特別這個我OK但是我的意思是說不管怎麼樣對人民我們的任何行政處分都要明確嘛法律明確性原則這是一個法律最基本的概念所以呢我現在確認的是第一個有居留權的陸配這個管制上面會比較嚴格那我剛剛請教的如果您有身份證的當初的陸配\n\n21:54.224 --> 22:18.871\n那這個要不要嚴格我只是要問這個問題而已應該是這樣講就是我們既然給他身分證原則上我們是把他當作是中華民國國民就是他的言論自由的審查程度不會像只有居留權的陸配那麼高好像得到這個有他國籍的這些就是以四年來當作判斷的標準那這個我可以了解\n\n22:19.491 --> 22:41.255\n好那最後我還是一樣就是說我提到一個我還是反對任何武統言論或者是只要有任何武力要對我們這塊土地要侵害我都願意出來對抗所以不要扣我們什麼帽子只要不認同民進黨就叫舔共沒有這種事情啦台灣是大家的台灣是我們熱愛的這塊土地不是我不認同你的邏輯那我就是\n\n22:41.855 --> 22:53.771\n那個誰的同路人我跟你講這個就是把人民二分法搞激烈對抗然後獲取政治利益而已啦這其實很沒水準啦所以但是呢不管怎麼樣我覺得我對言論自由的追求\n\n22:55.530 --> 23:15.629\n還是一樣百分之百言論自由但是我不容許任何政府或個人假借民主的名義或抗中保台口號的名義或國家安全的名義在沒有法律授權法律明確性的情況下去侵害人民在憲法第11條的言論自由的基本人權\n\n23:16.144 --> 23:38.963\n那就是看誰是人民啊我們現在這次處理的幾位他們都不是我們那個副主委我已經說了我一開始就說我不講個案那我剛所謂的百分之百的言論自由我絕對沒有排除掉所謂的人民所以我跟你講我從年輕二十幾歲的時候就在\n\n23:39.824 --> 24:05.819\n十幾歲跟著野百合學院二十幾歲跟著廢書刑法一百條我一路這樣走過來那我們以前追求的是什麼對啊那今天鄭楠榮變成很多人的提款機但是他還是我心裡面我覺得我堅持的理想啊那你今天你要扣這個帽子扣別人講一些有沒有我不是不太能接受但我也尊重各位的的發言的內容鄭楠榮是前輩啊但是他並不是神主派\n\n24:06.826 --> 24:11.486\n我沒有說要繩子款我說大家不要把它當作提款機來用好那謝謝各位\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.57,"end":15.168,"text":"我們麻煩教育部正次 陸委會副主委 法務部長還有司法院廳長教育部陸委會 法務部還有司法院"},{"start":19.278,"end":45.066,"text":"好那首先我先破題的簡單講一下就是因為我們其實這段時間我受夠了很多不明的不明的這些網軍總之對我們的發言斷章取義所以我先在這邊先說明一下第一個我今天所有的質詢都不針對個案那你們也請不要用個案來回答我第二個對於所有"},{"start":46.414,"end":63.634,"text":"只要是對我們這塊土地的有侵害的外來武力我們都予以反抗我們一定都會出來反抗而且所有希望以武力來顛覆我們這塊土地的我們都予以譴責但是呢 回過頭來我講到"},{"start":65.373,"end":85.738,"text":"重點但是有些言論雖然不被我們所能接受但是不代表國家就可以動用公權力來加以限制他發言的理由也就是有一些言論他不被我們喜歡但是是不是有到達違法或用法律加以處罰其實這兩個東西是完全不同層次的"},{"start":86.678,"end":102.278,"text":"的概念所以我自己在上個會期的時候我有提到在1990年的時候我自己參加野百合學運一直到後續也有廢紙動力勘案次序臨時條款然後後來我再去參加了廢除刑法100條的活動其實"},{"start":104.961,"end":127.032,"text":"我一直在追求的就是所謂的百分之百言論自由所以今天很多民進黨委員來這邊講說鄭南榮多麼啟發他其實鄭南榮一直他的言論他所謂的言論自由一直是我追求的一個重點所以他所說的在面對槍口之下他也是追求百分之百言論自由或是像楊兆所說的"},{"start":128.192,"end":144.276,"text":"鄭南榮到死他都還是堅守百分之百言論自由我想說這些東西現在目前在有一些民進黨的政客的嘴裡面其實我覺得他們是在褻瀆鄭南榮的精神我想先提一下 當年為什麼參加廢物刑法100條"},{"start":148.874,"end":168.154,"text":"的這個活動當然當時那個主要原因是因為當時我的學校導師是劉初之教授他先生是林三田那林三田本來就是廢族刑法100條的領先人所以一直以來我們都是追隨著他們而且我們希望當時流亡在海外的異議分子能夠平安的回到台灣我們當時是這樣"},{"start":169.756,"end":195.395,"text":"我們的都在追求這個甚至在刑法100條在修正之前其他第二項根本就是一個思想犯的控制那他第一項他在修正之後也加上了許多必須要強暴脅迫的實際行為這時候才會加以限制所以我們在這麼久以前就知道要去廢除刑法100條來追求我們人民的言論自由為什麼到今天反而走回頭路"},{"start":196.155,"end":204.498,"text":"那我想請問一下法務部跟司法院如果有人在網路上面發表說我要顛覆賴清德政府請問這有沒有成立內亂罪這應該很簡單吧請問這有沒有成立內亂罪"},{"start":221.072,"end":250.407,"text":"好 就是沒有成立內亂罪嘛 對不對我想這結論 我想這非常簡單啦所以呢 其實賴總統他前天說的他說任何鼓吹剝奪台灣人民自由主張讓中華民國台灣消失的倡議都不是台灣社會能夠接受的言論自由而百分之百的言論自由 更不是利用自由來消滅自由基本上啊 我大部分還是認同賴總統說的話畢竟沒有國家了 那大家也就無所依附了嘛"},{"start":251.047,"end":268.7,"text":"所以講台灣消失的言論不會被主流民意所接受但是違不違法這是另外一回事我再講一次很多言論不被主流民意所接受但是違不違法是另外一個層次的問題所以呢"},{"start":271.618,"end":299.397,"text":"我想言論自由的界限在哪裡 這個很重要我們必須告訴人民 什麼能講 什麼不能講但是政府對於這個東西 似乎是完全沒有很明確的規範就像這次法務部你們跟司法院都有提到的4至445號跟644號其實他已經講得很明確了就是說國家不可以單純因為集會遊行的團體主張共產主義或分裂國土"},{"start":300.297,"end":325.828,"text":"不能因為主張這個就限制他們或拒絕他們集會遊行的許可所以從這個四字我們很能夠明確的了解就是所謂限制人民的言論自由它必須要有兩個要件第一個要明確所以我們法律要有明確性第二個要有立即的危險所以當有這兩個的時候你加以限制是完全正確的但是今天如果不是的情況下"},{"start":327.188,"end":337.786,"text":"那實際不應該立法加以限制啊你只能說他是一個不入流一個不好的言論但是不至於到我們要用法律去規範他嘛所以呢"},{"start":340.233,"end":356.46,"text":"過去民進黨追求100%研究結果 但到今天似乎又變了那我再請教一下教育部政次我想請教一下 部長最近的發言他認為說 教育人員在教學的時候要讓青少年具有國家主權的意識要確保國家認同"},{"start":359.941,"end":379.996,"text":"我跟你說我認同這一句話因為我從小我爸爸就告訴我叫我做到兩件事愛國還有孝順這我公開講過很多次我爸從小就叫我這兩件事一定要做到所以我對於國家認同對於愛國我是非常重視這個行為好那我請教一下部長這麼說那鄭次郭想請教你"},{"start":382.458,"end":409.247,"text":"今天你們要求老師跟學生要這麼做要求老師要這麼宣導那我請教您一個問題所謂的國家認同是一憲法所講的中華民國還是二兩岸人民關係所講的台灣地區以及大陸地區或是三台獨就是台灣獨立主權獨立的台灣國還是四蔡英文政府她所說的堅持維持現狀的台灣還是五"},{"start":412.443,"end":437.815,"text":"小時候課本寫了做個堂堂正任中國人請問這五個是哪一個叫做是我們的國家認同我想部長已經講得很清楚那你等於沒回答我他就是中華民國的教育工作者你等於沒回答我請問一下這五個是哪一個我講一個最簡單您今天貴為次長您也是政治人物出身我非常尊重您但是如果貴為政次而且是政治人物出身的人都無法告訴我所謂的國家認同"},{"start":440.333,"end":467.558,"text":"愛國到底愛的是什麼樣的到底是什麼我剛剛講的就五個這五個也是非常明確第一個憲法第二個兩岸人民關係條例第三個大家講的台獨第四個蔡英文前總統所說的維持現狀的台灣第五個還是小時候課本說的台灣真正的中國人這五個是哪一個我要效忠哪一個或我要認同哪一個那個才叫做符合教育部部長所說的國家認同請教次長他有講到憲法嗎"},{"start":470.054,"end":480.432,"text":"所以呢我剛才在報告的時候也有提到我們享用的言論自由是根據憲法第二條這五個選項很簡單嘛憲法上現在是中華民國嘛"},{"start":482.43,"end":505.407,"text":"所以今天你說的是你認為部長所說的國家認同是憲法的中華民國我以為你秀出來就有提到不要忘掉身為一個中華民國的教育工作者所以這個講得很清楚沒有問題沒關係我剛剛就講有五個但是今天似乎實際上在政治圈大家不是這麼講"},{"start":507.729,"end":530.686,"text":"還有人大言不慚的說中華民國憲法是災難本來一開始說中華民國是災難後來趕快改口說中華民國憲法是災難那我這不講誰大家也都知道所以現在其實我跟各位報告搞到今天所謂的國家認同都只能講台灣你不能講別的你講台灣以外就叫做中共同路人所以打球打贏的台灣隊打輸的叫中華隊"},{"start":531.907,"end":555.689,"text":"這只會出現在荒謬的台灣才有這個狀況其實這很離譜但是我還是跟各位說我不討厭民進黨的人我不痛恨他們但是我超級熱愛這塊土地所以我認為我就是熱愛這塊土地所以我從小就認為愛國是一件很重要的事情可是你今天反而混淆了我到底我的國家認同要在哪裡那如果說今天連"},{"start":557.156,"end":572.496,"text":"上面的長官們自己都搞不清楚都無法確定了或是說的跟做的不一樣就像部長在喊說台灣國的什麼什麼這是部長 不是教育部長啦連劉部長都說了我們台灣國怎麼樣那我要"},{"start":573.601,"end":588.458,"text":"老師怎麼教學生 要學生怎麼遵循就我剛剛講的 這各種都是不一樣啊所以 好吧 反正這個不是教育部講 所以我也不適合問次長說有部長在台上喊台灣國 這個大家想法是怎麼樣"},{"start":589.919,"end":615.433,"text":"所以我覺得這種搞下去台灣變成很對立的社會似乎你不認同民進黨口中所說的那個國家的那個概念或他的定義那你就是中共同路人事實上我剛剛講的我不恨民進黨員我以前也很堅持的支持民進黨的青年情障礙鄉土但是今天他變了是他變了不是我變了"},{"start":617.588,"end":642.235,"text":"他對這塊的土地熱愛 其實我是已經看不到了那我再跟各位報告一件事情DPPS前幾天的網路投票其實有77.4%的人認為戴總統上任之後言論自由被限縮很多9.3%認為被限縮了一些也就是說超過8成5的民眾感受言論自由的限制是比過去更嚴重這個請給各位參考一下"},{"start":643.215,"end":660.949,"text":"這個不是我所追求的百分之百言論自由也不是我一生尊崇的鄭南榮他的言論自由所會引導出今天台灣的這個現狀所以一些言論即使在言論的市場不被大家喜歡但是不代表它就是違法"},{"start":661.897,"end":683.762,"text":"不被人民喜歡的言論他也不代表就會動搖台灣現在的安全跟國際的現狀所以我想這給各位講一下那我再請教一個問題法務部跟司法院我請教一下我國目前有沒有規範鼓吹戰爭罪請回答"},{"start":690.134,"end":700.839,"text":"這份委員報告,那個現刑法有可能涉及到鼓吹戰爭的言論,包括就是仇恨性的言論,這個譬如說刑法100條、101條、103條、309、310、還有153條,還有涉違法的63條。309、310,公然侮辱舉報。這就是妨害名譽這部分,都有涉及仇恨性的言論。"},{"start":714.192,"end":740.649,"text":"誹謗跟供罕無辱這是仇恨性的言論這跟骨髓戰爭有什麼關係309、310不可能啦骨髓戰爭的言論這部分骨髓戰爭的言論的話我們看可以更明確化但是有涉及的條文是有這些跟仇恨性的言論部長你這樣講太包沾包海了這講出去會被念法律的人笑啦我說實在話我想這個我們就可能我說可能有涉及到這部分仇恨性言論因為這個戰爭有這些仇恨性的言論"},{"start":741.709,"end":766.489,"text":"這個講仇恨性能夠講一個就是戰爭簡單來說就是譬如說有人喊武統這個我國目前到底有沒有制定這個法律有沒有那還是廳長如果部長你總是搞不清楚那廳長呢我不會搞不清楚啦那個我已經好那你跟我說哪一條你再跟我說一次哪309、310講出去線上看到的法官檢察官應該會笑出聲音那我們就先說在那個整個一個內亂外患通某開戰這部分嘛"},{"start":770.017,"end":786.85,"text":"這跟鼓吹沒有關係啊我來跟各位報告 至少我自己基本認為啦目前我國並沒有就鼓吹戰爭這個行為加以立法那我再跟各位報告一下 我國是成文法國家"},{"start":787.791,"end":812.637,"text":"以及我國的罪行法定原則也就是你的行為除非法律有規範他犯罪否則基本上他是不會構成犯罪所以我國是堅守罪行法定主義以及純文法國家的這個概念那今天有兩位民進黨的委員一位省姓委員一位無姓委員他們兩位一直在講公正公約二十條他說某人"},{"start":813.297,"end":839.948,"text":"鼓吹 蔣無統這個部分呢怎麼會沒有違法這個公正公約第20條就他們也念了公正公約20條的條文結果他念的條文跟他講的解釋完全不一樣他連法律都沒有搞懂公正公約20條任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳應以法律禁止之也就是說公正公約20條他所刻意的義務是國家必須訂出法律"},{"start":841.048,"end":868.951,"text":"是這個規定國家必須定出法律而不是告訴人民說你講這個就是違法什麼情況下會違法就是當國家定出法律之後人民加以違法那叫做違法這叫做所以這就回到我剛說的這是我國的罪行法定主義是這樣所以呢今天這兩位委員一直提公正公約二十條所以今天有人在網路上面講梧桐兩個字這個是違法"},{"start":870.472,"end":898.032,"text":"其實這是完全錯誤的概念這個也是對於法律認知的思考的跳躍這個邏輯完全中斷思考的跳躍才會發生這個說法所以公正公約二十條第一項我們該檢討的是什麼是過去的立法院以及過去不管藍綠執政的行政單位為什麼沒有趕快把這個法律立出來為什麼沒有2009年公正公約就已經生效了為什麼"},{"start":899.893,"end":927.906,"text":"十幾年下來國家卻沒有把這條法律立出來結果今天有某一個人他在網路上面講了這句話之後你就說這個違反公正公約20條可是公正公約20條他是要求國家去立這個法律我想這很明確那至於說有一些人他要思考跳躍的去解釋法律那我就予以尊重所以又回到我剛剛說的我國目前沒有鼓吹戰爭罪嘛"},{"start":928.766,"end":950.576,"text":"至少從構成要件來看 有嗎好 那不管有沒有 那我再請教一下有網紅啊 在他的歌曲裡面 就是要求中國大陸求你趕快打過來 你到底打不打那請問一下 這個有沒有違反 違反法律規定這個是不是鼓吹戰爭我想請教兩位"},{"start":956.052,"end":984.695,"text":"好吧 那沒有辦法回答就算了我想我們不能always雙標在面對國人尤其是法律跟制度應該長治久安你一方面可以說有人在講武統或武裝那個我也很討厭那個言論我也絕對譴責講這些話的人但是他在法律上面要怎麼去定位法律是不是要符合法律明確性告訴大家言論自由的界限在哪裡而不是今天你非我族類 那你就違法"},{"start":985.456,"end":1004.038,"text":"你是我同一掛人所以你今天你講叫中國大陸趕快打過來你到底打不打啊就沒事所以我在這邊必須點出這個從法律的角度來告訴大家公正公約第一個被很多政客自己隨便亂誤解公正公約它刻意的對象是國家以及行政機關、立法機關"},{"start":1005.459,"end":1030.873,"text":"那今天我國只要還沒有完成這個立法程序之前人民你不能說他這個行為違法你可以說他不道德你可以說他這樣不好你可以說我譴責你這個說法但是你沒辦法說他違法我在這邊跟各位做這樣的報告好那我這次跟法務部要資料部長啊我給你請教一下說啊到底你這個鼓吹戰爭罪什麼時候要立法你們給我的回覆是研修小組在113年4月2號已經開過有開過一次"},{"start":1034.395,"end":1046.486,"text":"那現在一年多了啊那到現在到底是怎麼樣卻沒看到第二個我跟你要資料你又給我回覆說不提供會議紀錄因為依據政府資訊公開法18條第一項第三款這個"},{"start":1050.478,"end":1067.393,"text":"這個研修紀錄是不能公開的但是請你看一下那一條有一個但書那一條的但書就是跟公益有必要的時候得公開那我今天覺得這個東西跟我們國人言論自由的範圍有非常大的關聯性跟公益也有關聯性"},{"start":1068.334,"end":1083.146,"text":"甚至一個人他到底在網路上面能講什麼不能講什麼或者是有人講被辦有人講沒事那到底範圍界限在哪裡這毫不明確所以我還是認為說下次我還是會形容跟你們一樣但是我想說如果你再跟我說這個"},{"start":1085.968,"end":1111.826,"text":"你要提這個政府資訊公開法來不給我的話我想說這個跟公益有關我還是希望你們能夠公開另外一年多了這東西到現在沒有進度這也是我想要點出來讓大家知道法務部這一塊你就是怠惰在處理這個事情最後我想請 不好意思喔耽誤到大家的時間最後我想請問一下那個陸委會"},{"start":1113.686,"end":1142.471,"text":"陸委會我有拜讀你們的資料還有剛剛陸委會主委也有提到剛剛在做口頭報告的時候也有提到一個點就是說你說陸配的言論自由程度跟公民不同因為要有較高的管制那這個我不評論我都予以尊重因為你說這個是境外敵對勢力等等的這個說法所以必須對他們有高強度的管制我先不評論這件事情我想要請教你的那所謂的陸配的定義"},{"start":1144.371,"end":1171.802,"text":"第一個如果只有居留權的陸配才要高強度的管制嗎還是第二個取得身份證後的陸配也要高強度的管制第三個如果是中國大陸出生成長受教育但是事後入籍他國或港澳然後再與我國人結婚那這三種請問一下這個管制上面是一致適用高強度管制還是有所區別請教副主委"},{"start":1173.393,"end":1195.606,"text":"如果他只有居留權 他能夠住在台灣是因為我們特許他我們給他特許讓你住在台灣 但我們可以隨時取消這個特許權所以他的管制就會比較更高一點譬如說他不一定要居留 也許他是來停留或者是來觀光"},{"start":1196.869,"end":1217.02,"text":"他講出類似可以會違背國家利益或是干擾社會秩序的言論那我們就不歡迎那他如果拿到身份證或是定居但我們在定居留許可辦法之中也有相對的條文至於你說第三種狀況是說他"},{"start":1221.903,"end":1246.013,"text":"中國大陸人士他拿到美國籍然後跟台灣人結婚那我們會看他說拿到美國籍或是拿到其他國家國籍有多久的時間基本上我們會用五年來算就是說你拿到其他國家的國籍五年之後我才四年之後我才確認你可能已經放棄了中國的國籍了這樣"},{"start":1249.358,"end":1257.134,"text":"第一個只有居留證的陸配你們認為是要比較高強度的管制那有身份證的我剛剛沒有聽清楚有身份證的話你們怎麼認定"},{"start":1258.086,"end":1283.501,"text":"有身份證的話 因為我們在定居留尋可辦法裡面也有相應的條文跟這個居留的部分是有點類似所以這個部分應該是這麼說就是台灣跟大陸之間它的狀況很特殊所以我們在兩岸條例從一開始設計的時候它就跟國籍法不一樣"},{"start":1284.221,"end":1313.604,"text":"我們在處理兩岸人民關係的時候跟台灣跟其他國家是不同我也認同我的意思是說我都沒有意見啦就是說台灣跟中國大陸之間的關係很特別這個我OK但是我的意思是說不管怎麼樣對人民我們的任何行政處分都要明確嘛法律明確性原則這是一個法律最基本的概念所以呢我現在確認的是第一個有居留權的陸配這個管制上面會比較嚴格那我剛剛請教的如果您有身份證的當初的陸配"},{"start":1314.224,"end":1338.871,"text":"那這個要不要嚴格我只是要問這個問題而已應該是這樣講就是我們既然給他身分證原則上我們是把他當作是中華民國國民就是他的言論自由的審查程度不會像只有居留權的陸配那麼高好像得到這個有他國籍的這些就是以四年來當作判斷的標準那這個我可以了解"},{"start":1339.491,"end":1361.255,"text":"好那最後我還是一樣就是說我提到一個我還是反對任何武統言論或者是只要有任何武力要對我們這塊土地要侵害我都願意出來對抗所以不要扣我們什麼帽子只要不認同民進黨就叫舔共沒有這種事情啦台灣是大家的台灣是我們熱愛的這塊土地不是我不認同你的邏輯那我就是"},{"start":1361.855,"end":1373.771,"text":"那個誰的同路人我跟你講這個就是把人民二分法搞激烈對抗然後獲取政治利益而已啦這其實很沒水準啦所以但是呢不管怎麼樣我覺得我對言論自由的追求"},{"start":1375.53,"end":1395.629,"text":"還是一樣百分之百言論自由但是我不容許任何政府或個人假借民主的名義或抗中保台口號的名義或國家安全的名義在沒有法律授權法律明確性的情況下去侵害人民在憲法第11條的言論自由的基本人權"},{"start":1396.144,"end":1418.963,"text":"那就是看誰是人民啊我們現在這次處理的幾位 他們都不是我們那個 副主委我已經說了 我一開始就說我不講個案那我剛所謂的百分之百的言論自由我絕對沒有排除掉所謂的人民所以我跟你講 我從年輕二十幾歲的時候就在"},{"start":1419.824,"end":1445.819,"text":"十幾歲跟著野百合學院二十幾歲跟著廢書刑法一百條我一路這樣走過來那我們以前追求的是什麼對啊那今天鄭楠榮變成很多人的提款機但是他還是我心裡面我覺得我堅持的理想啊那你今天你要扣這個帽子扣別人講一些有沒有我不是不太能接受但我也尊重各位的的發言的內容鄭楠榮是前輩啊但是他並不是神主派"},{"start":1446.826,"end":1451.486,"text":"我沒有說要繩子款 我說大家不要把它當作提款機來用好 那謝謝各位"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":996,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（12時27分）麻煩請教育部政次、陸委會副主委、法務部部長及司法院廳長。"],["主席：請教育部、陸委會、法務部及司法院。"],["吳委員宗憲：首先我先簡單破題講一下，這段時間我受夠了很多不明的網軍，總是對我們的發言斷章取義，所以我現在先說明一下，第一個，我今天所有的質詢都不針對個案，你們也請不要用個案來回答我；第二個，對於所有只要是對我們這塊土地有侵害的外來武力，我們都予以反抗，我們一定都會出來反抗，而且對於所有希望以武力來顛覆我們這塊土地的人，我們都予以譴責。回過頭來我講到重點，但是有些言論雖然不被我們所能接受，但是不代表國家就可以動用公權力來加以限制他發言的理由。比如有些言論不被我們喜歡，但是是不是有到達違法，或用法律加以處罰？其實這兩個東西是完全不同層次的概念，所以我在上個會期的時候有提到，我自己在1990年的時候參加野百合學運，一直到後續也有廢止動員戡亂時期臨時條款，後來我再參加廢除刑法一百條的活動。其實我一直在追求的就是所謂百分之百的言論自由，所以今天很多民進黨委員在這邊講鄭南榕多麼啟發他，其實鄭南榕所謂的言論自由一直是我追求的一個重點，他所說的在面對槍口之下，他也是追求百分之百言論自由，或是像楊照所說的，鄭南榕到死都還是堅守百分之百的言論自由。我想這些東西現在在一些民進黨政客的嘴裡面，其實我覺得他們是在褻瀆鄭南榕的精神。","我繼續提一下，當年為什麼我會參加廢除刑法第一百條的活動，主要原因是因為當時我的學校導師是劉初枝教授，他先生是林山田，林山田本來就是廢除刑法第一百條的領銜人，所以一直以來我們都是追隨著他們，而且我們希望當時流亡在海外的異議分子能夠平安的回到臺灣，我們當時是這樣，我們都在追求這個。但是在刑法第一百條修正之前，其實第二項根本就是一個思想犯的控制，第一項在修正之後，也加上了許多必須要有強暴脅迫的實際行為，這時候才會加以限制。所以我們在這麼久以前就知道要去廢除刑法第一百條來追求人民的言論自由，為什麼到今天反而走回頭路？我想請問一下法務部跟司法院，如果有人在網路上面發表要顛覆賴清德政府，請問這有沒有成立內亂罪？這應該很簡單吧？請問這有沒有成立內亂罪？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是屬於單純的主張而已。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，就是沒有成立內亂罪嘛，對不對？我想這個結論非常簡單。所以其實賴總統前天說的，他說任何鼓吹剝奪臺灣人民自由，主張讓中華民國臺灣消失的倡議，都不是臺灣社會能夠接受的言論自由，而百分之百的言論自由更不是利用自由來消滅自由。基本上，我大部分還是認同賴總統說的話，畢竟沒有國家了，那大家也就無所依附了嘛。所以要講臺灣消失的言論，這不會被主流民意所接受，但是違不違法是另外一回事。我再講一次，很多言論不被主流民意所接受，但是違不違法，這是另外一個層次的問題。","事實上，言論自由的界限在哪裡？這個很重要，我們必須告訴人民什麼能講、什麼不能講，但是政府對於這個東西卻似乎完全沒有很明確的規範，就像這次法務部跟司法院都有提到的釋字445號跟644號，其實它已經講得很明確了，國家不可以單純因為集會遊行團體主張「共產主義或分裂國土」為理由，不能因為主張這個就限制他們或拒絕他們集會遊行的許可。所以我們從這個釋字可以很明確的了解，所謂限制人民的言論自由必須要有兩個要件，第一個要明確，我們法律要有明確性；第二個要有立即的危險。所以當有這兩個要件的時候，你加以限制是完全正確的嘛，但是今天如果不是的情況下，其實是不應該立法加以限制，你只能說它是一個不入流、一個不好的言論，但是不至於到我們要用法律去規範嘛。所以過去民進黨追求百分之百言論自由，但到今天似乎又變了。","繼續請教教育部政次，有關部長最近的發言，他認為教育人員在教學的時候要讓青少年具有國家主權的意識，要確保國家認同。我認同這一句話，因為我從小我爸爸就告訴我，叫我做到兩件事就是愛國和孝順，這我公開講過很多次，我爸從小就叫我這兩件事一定要做到，所以我對於國家認同、對於愛國，我是非常重視這個行為。我請教一下，部長這麼說了，我請教政次，今天你們要求老師跟學生要這麼做，要求老師要這麼宣導，那我請教您一個問題，所謂的國家認同是以下哪一個？一、憲法所講的中華民國？二、兩岸人民關係所講的臺灣地區以及大陸地區？三、臺獨，也就是臺灣獨立、主權獨立的臺灣國？四、蔡英文政府所說的堅持維持現狀的臺灣？五、小時候課本寫的做個堂堂正正的中國人。請問這五個哪一個是我們的國家認同？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想部長已經講得很清楚嘛……"],["吳委員宗憲：那你等於沒回答我啊！"],["張廖次長萬堅：他就是中華民國的教育工作者嘛！"],["吳委員宗憲：你等於沒回答我！請問這五個是哪一個？我講一個最簡單的，您今天貴為次長，你也是政治人物出身，我非常尊重您，但是如果貴為政次，而且是政治人物出身的人，都無法告訴我所謂的國家認同，愛國到底愛的是什麼樣的？我剛講的就五個，這五個也是非常明確……"],["張廖次長萬堅：是中華民國臺灣……"],["吳委員宗憲：第一個是憲法；第二個是兩岸人民關係條例；第三個是大家講的臺獨；第四個是蔡英文前總統所說的維持現狀的臺灣；還是第五個，小時候課本說的堂堂正正的中國人？這五個是哪一個？我要效忠哪一個？或我要認同哪一個？那個才叫做符合教育部部長所說的國家認同？請教次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：你有講到憲法嘛！"],["吳委員宗憲：所以呢？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我剛才在報告的時候有提到，就是我們講的言論自由是根據憲法第二條……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，這五個選項很簡單嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：在憲法上，現在是中華民國嘛！"],["吳委員宗憲：好，所以呢？今天你說的是，部長你認為的國家認同是憲法的中華民國？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，你簡報秀出來的就有提到嘛，不要忘掉身為一個中華民國的教育工作者，所以這個講的很清楚，沒有問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那沒關係，我剛就講有五個。但是今天似乎實際上在政治圈大家不是這麼講啦，還有人大言不慚的說中華民國憲法是災難，本來一開始說中華民國是災難，後來趕快改口說中華民國憲法是災難，我就不講誰，大家也都知道。","現在我跟各位報告，搞到今天所謂的國家認同都只能講臺灣，你不能講別的，你講臺灣以外，就叫做中共同路人，所以打球打贏叫臺灣隊，打輸的叫中華隊，這只會出現在荒謬的臺灣才有這個狀況，其實這很離譜。但是我還是跟各位說，我不討厭民進黨的人，我不痛恨他們，但是我超級熱愛這塊土地，我就是熱愛這塊土地，所以我從小認為愛國是很重要的事情，可是你今天反而混淆了我，到底我的國家認同要在哪裡？如果今天連上面的長官們自己都搞不清楚，都無法確定了，或是說的跟做的不一樣，就像部長在喊說臺灣國的什麼什麼……這是部長說的，不是教育部長，連劉部長都說了我們臺灣國怎麼樣，那試問老師要怎麼教學生？學生要怎麼遵循？就我剛講的，這各種都是不一樣啊！","好吧，反正這個不是教育部長說的，所以我也不適合問次長對於有部長在台上喊臺灣國的想法是怎麼樣，我是覺得這樣搞下去臺灣會變得很對立，是對立的社會，似乎你不認同民進黨口中所說的那個國家的概念或定義的話，那你就是中共同路人。事實上我剛講的，我不恨民進黨員，我以前很堅持支持民進黨的「清廉、勤政、愛鄉土」，但是今天他們變了，是他們變了，不是我變了，他們對這塊土地的熱愛，其實我已經看不到了。","我再跟各位報告一件事情，TVBS前幾天的網路投票，有77.4%的人認為賴總統上任之後，言論自由被限縮很多，9.3%認為被限縮了一些。也就是說超過八成五的民眾感受言論自由的限制是比過去更嚴重，這個給各位參考一下，這個不是我所追求的百分之百言論自由，也不是我一生遵從鄭南榕的言論自由所引導出今天臺灣的這個現狀。所以一些言論即使在言論的市場不被大家喜歡，但是不代表它就是違法，不被人民喜歡的言論，它也不代表就會動搖臺灣現在的安全跟國際的現狀。","我再請教法務部跟司法院，我國目前有沒有規範鼓吹戰爭罪？請回答。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，現行法有可能涉及到鼓吹戰爭的言論，包括仇恨性言論，譬如刑法第一百條、第一百零一條、第第一百零三條、第三百零九條、第三百十條、第一百十五條，還有社維法的第六十三條……"],["吳委員宗憲：第三百零九條、第三百十條？公然侮辱誹謗？"],["鄭部長銘謙：妨害名譽這部分都有涉及仇恨性的言論……"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有啦！誹謗跟公然侮辱跟鼓吹戰爭有什麼關係？"],["鄭部長銘謙：仇恨性的言論……"],["吳委員宗憲：第三百零九條、第三百十條……"],["鄭部長銘謙：鼓吹戰爭的言論這部分，我們當然可以更明確化，但是有涉及的條文是有這些，跟仇恨性的言論。"],["吳委員宗憲：我覺得部長你這樣講太包山包海了，這講出去會被唸法律的人笑啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我是說可能有涉及到這部分，仇恨性言論，因為戰爭有時候就有仇恨性的言論。"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有講仇恨性，我講的就是戰爭，簡單來說譬如有人喊武統，我國目前到底有沒有制定這個法律？有沒有？如果部長總是搞不清楚，那廳長呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不會搞不清楚啦，我已經……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那你跟我說哪一條，你再跟我說一次，第三百零九條、第三百十條講出去，線上看到的法官、檢察官應該會笑出聲音。"],["鄭部長銘謙：那我們就講內亂外患、通謀開戰罪這部分嘛，還有散布謠言，我想這部分……"],["吳委員宗憲：這跟鼓吹沒有關係啊！好，沒關係，我來跟各位報告，至少我自己基本認為，目前我國並沒有就鼓吹戰爭這個行為加以立法。我再跟各位報告一下，我國是成文法國家，以及我國的罪行法定原則，也就是你的行為除非法律有規範是犯罪的，否則基本上是不會構成犯罪，所以我國是堅守罪行法定主義以及成文法國家的這個概念。今天有兩位民進黨的委員，一位沈姓委員、一位吳姓委員，他們兩位一直在講公政公約第二十條，他說某人鼓吹講武統，這個部分怎麼會沒有違法？這是公政公約第二十條，他們也唸了公政公約第二十條的條文，結果他唸的條文跟他講的解釋完全不一樣，他連法律都沒有搞懂。公政公約第二十條是任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳應以法律禁止之。也就是公政公約二十條所課予的義務是國家必須制定出法律，是這個規定，國家必須制定出法律，而不是告訴人民，你講這個就是違法。什麼情況下會違法？就是當國家制定出法律之後，人民加以違反，那叫做違法，所以這就回到我剛才說的，這是我國的罪行法定主義，是這樣的。今天這兩位委員一直提公政公約第二十條，所以今天有人在網路上面講武統兩個字，就說這個是違法，其實這是完全錯誤的概念，這個也是對於法律認知思考跳躍，這個邏輯完全中斷，思考跳躍才會發生這個說法。所以對於公政公約第二十條第一項，我們該檢討的是什麼？過去的立法院以及過去不管藍綠執政的行政單位，為什麼沒有趕快把這個法律立出來？為什麼沒有？2009年公政公約就已經生效了，為什麼十幾年下來，國家卻沒有把這條法律立出來？結果今天有某一個人在網路上面講了這句話之後，你就說這個違反公政公約第二十條，可是公政公約第二十條是要求國家去立這個法律，我想這個是很明確的，至於有一些人要思考跳躍的去解釋法律，那我就予以尊重。所以又回到我剛剛說的，我國目前沒有鼓吹戰爭罪嘛，至少從構成要件來看有嗎？","那不管有沒有，我再請教一下。有網紅在他的歌曲裡面要求中國大陸，他說：求你趕快打過來，你到底打不打？請問這個有沒有違反法律規定？這個是不是鼓吹戰爭？我想請教兩位。好吧，沒有辦法回答就算了。我想我們不能always雙標在面對國人，尤其是法律跟制度應該長治久安，你一方面說有人在講武統或武裝，我也很討厭那個言論，我也絕對譴責講這些話的人，但是這在法律上面要怎麼去定位，法律是不是要符合法律明確性，告訴大家言論自由的界線在哪裡，而不是今天你非我族類，那你就違法，你是我同一掛人，所以你今天叫中國大陸趕快打過來，問他到底打不打，結果卻沒事。我今天必須點出這個，從法律的角度來告訴大家，公政公約被很多政客自己隨便亂誤解，公政公約課予的對象是國家以及行政機關、立法機關，今天我國只要還沒有完成這個立法程序之前，你不能說人民他這個行為違法，你可以說他不道德，你可以說他這樣不好，你可以說要譴責他這個說法，但是你沒辦法說他違法，我特地跟各位做這樣的報告。","另外，我這次跟法務部要資料，我請教部長到底這個鼓吹戰爭罪什麼時候要立法？你們給我的回覆是研修小組在113年4月2日已經開過一次會，現在過了一年多了，現在到底是怎麼樣卻沒看到。第二個，我給你要資料，你又回覆我不提供會議紀錄，因為依據政府資訊公開法第十八條第一項第三款，研修紀錄是不能公開的，但是請你看一下那個條文有一個但書，那個但書就是跟公益有必要的時候得公開，我今天覺得這個東西跟我們國人言論自由的範圍有非常大的關聯性，跟公益也有關聯性，甚至一個人到底能在網路上面講什麼、不能講什麼，或者是有人講了被辦，有人講了卻沒事，到底範圍界限在哪裡，這部分毫不明確，所以我下次還是會再行文跟你們要；如果你再跟我提政府資訊公開法而不給我的話，我覺得這個跟公益有關，我還是希望你們能夠公開。另外都已經一年多了，這部分到現在都沒有進度，這也是我想要點出來的，讓大家知道法務部在這一塊事情的處理上就是在怠惰。","不好意思耽誤到大家的時間。最後，我想請問一下陸委會，我有拜讀你們的資料，副主委剛剛在口頭報告的時候也提到一個點，你說陸配的言論自由程度跟公民不同，需要有較高的管制，這個部分我不評論，也都予以尊重，因為你說這個是境外敵對勢力等等，所以必須對他們有高強度的管制，我就先不評論這件事情。但是我想請教你對陸配的定義，第一個，只有居留權的陸配才需要高強度的管制？第二個，取得身分證後的陸配也要高強度的管制嗎？第三個，如果是在中國大陸出生、成長、受教育，但後來入籍他國或港澳，然後再與我國人結婚。請教副主委，這三種在管制上面是一致適用高強度管制，還是有所區別？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：如果他只有居留權，他能夠住在臺灣是因為我們給他特許，讓他住在臺灣，當然我們可以隨時取消這個特許權。"],["吳委員宗憲：是。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：所以對他的管制就會比較更高一點，他不一定要居留，也許他來是停留或是觀光，如果他講出類似違背國家利益或者干擾社會秩序的言論，那我們就不歡迎；但如果他拿到身分證或是定居，我們在定居留許可辦法中也有相對的條文。至於委員說的第三種狀況，是指中國大陸人士拿到美國籍，然後跟臺灣人結婚，那我們會看他拿到美國籍或是其他國家的國籍有多久的時間，基本上我們會用四年來算，就是你拿到其他國家的國籍四年之後，我們才確認你可能已經放棄了中國的國籍。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以我們這邊先了解一下，第一個，對於只有居留證的陸配，你們認為要有比較高強度的管制，但對持有身分證的部分，我剛沒有聽清楚，請問你們怎麼認定？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對於有身分證者，我們在定居留許可辦法裡面也有相應的條文，跟居留的部分有點類似；這個部分應該這麼說，就是臺灣跟大陸之間的狀況很特殊，所以我們的兩岸條例從一開始設計的時候，它就跟國籍法不一樣，我們在處理兩岸人民關係的時候，跟臺灣與其他國家的是不同……"],["吳委員宗憲：這個我都沒有意見，我也都認同，副主委不用解釋，臺灣跟中國大陸之間的關係很特別，這個OK，我的意思是，不管怎麼樣，我們對人民任何的行政處分都要明確，法律明確性原則是法律最基本的概念。所以我現在要確認的是，第一個，對有居留權的陸配管制會比較嚴格，而我剛剛請教的是對領有身分證的陸配要不要嚴格？我只是要問這個問題而已！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：應該是這樣講，我們既然給他身分證，原則上，我們是把他當作是中華民國國民……"],["吳委員宗憲：對他的言論自由的審查程度不會像只有居留權的陸配那麼高？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：有他國國籍的部分就是以四年來當作判斷的標準？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，這個我可以了解。最後，我要提的是，我還是反對任何武統言論，只要有任何武力要侵害對我們這塊土地，我都願意出來對抗，所以不要扣我們什麼帽子，只要不認同民進黨就叫舔共，沒有這種事情！臺灣是大家的，臺灣是我們熱愛的這塊土地，不是我不認同你的邏輯，那我就是那個誰的同路人。我跟你講，這個就是把人民二分法，搞激烈對抗，然後獲取政治利益而已，這其實很沒水準！不管怎麼樣，我對言論自由的追求還是一樣百分之百的言論自由，但我也不容許任何政府或個人假借民主的名義，或抗中保臺口號的名義，或國家安全的名義，在沒有法律授權、沒有法律明確性的情況下，去侵害憲法第十一條所保障的人民言論自由的基本人權。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：那就看誰是人民，我們這一次處理的幾位，他們都不是我們的人民，不是中華民國的國民。"],["吳委員宗憲：副主委，我一開始就已經說了，我不講個案，我剛剛所謂的百分之百的言論自由，我絕對沒有排除掉所謂的人民。我跟你講，我在十幾歲的時候就跟著野百合學運，二十幾歲跟著廢除刑法一百條，一路這樣走過來……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我也是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們以前追求的是什麼？今天鄭南榕變成很多人的提款機，但他還是我心裡面所堅持的理想；今天你要扣別人這個帽子，講一些有的沒有的，我是不太能接受，但我尊重各位的發言內容。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：鄭南榕是前輩，但他並不是神主牌。"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有說他神主牌，我是說大家不要把他當作提款機來用。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝各位。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：接下來，我們請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","莊瑞雄","林倩綺","王義川","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","許宇甄","羅智強","張啓楷"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育\n部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相\n關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00004"}}}