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\"end\": 717.416, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 717.416, \"end\": 717.537, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"恩\", \"start\": 717.537, \"end\": 717.557, \"score\": 0.017}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,795 --> 00:00:07,864\n谢谢赵伟我们现在请院长好有请廖院长\n\n2\n00:00:11,138 --> 00:00:39,435\n各位委員早院長早明年六月你大概就是任期期滿了嘛所以應該是在現在謝謝OK好像送了一口雞蛋薯饅頭了所以距離今年六月的時候你們應該就開始成立的院長的臨選委員會嘛應該沒錯吧應該提前一年有個院長臨選委員會我們還是希望他還是能夠來秉持一個公正公開的原則不要像你上任之前有一堆的風風雨雨有一些政治因素的一個介入我們還是希望能夠\n\n3\n00:00:40,516 --> 00:00:54,968\n也很平顺因为相对于你翁晴院长跟你比起来的话你的平和没有涉入政治等等来说应该还给中研院一个比较公平干净的一个空间这是一个期许好大家不用担心我的问题到此结束来\n\n4\n00:00:57,149 --> 00:01:21,782\n不要愿意还是锁定在这个院长啊你在全国的校长会议里面提到我觉得你讲的东西非常的有道理啊就是台湾学术界都是跟社会脱钩而且制度偏重防弊解决问题对社会贡献才是有一个最大的一个目标所以不要去看论文的排名这是你当初所提到的嘛在全国校长会议我想很多人都深有同感而且您说要走出苏氏圈院长我真的要说啊\n\n5\n00:01:22,122 --> 00:01:48,084\n你走出舒适圈这句话让很多院长很感慨因为中研院一定是所有人大家最羡慕的目标好不好各位你们几乎已经如果要做学术的话中研院绝对是一个大家非常向往的地方我现在要请问的就是当你提到这句话的时候其实你有反映在你们中研院内部的一些升等制度上面吗我们来看一下中研院的这个所谓的升等标准里面来看其实呢第六条里面\n\n6\n00:01:49,005 --> 00:02:00,921\npaper的产量虽然说你们认为要研究价值里面的部分要对这个社会的问题的解决等等但是无可厚非的还是在这个paper的产量来说这点院长应该不否认吧\n\n7\n00:02:01,755 --> 00:02:20,741\n喔對不起這個好像不是這樣解釋的好那請說我們希望說在審查的時候不要單以paper的數量甚至我期許這個審查的時候不要side這個到底發了多少paper而是要講說這邊paper做了什麼貢獻\n\n8\n00:02:22,021 --> 00:02:48,904\n但是呢这就是我要问的嘛这是所有人都要问的因为我刚刚说你讲这句话深有同感但是所有的学界要说应该展现透过学术研究的成果来影响他人的可能性你如何来界定这个所谓的影响力而且你考核多久才有目前为止看不到我十年后才看得到这个部分你如何来界定因为这个就是中研院所以我们特别调出来看看你所东西有没有办法反映在你们自己院内的生存制度上面\n\n9\n00:02:49,544 --> 00:03:05,133\n這考核上面我們是強調有兩個部分一個是客觀的證據就是您所提的說你怎麼樣求證另外一方面我們更要強調是要主觀的判斷身為一個學者特別是做音樂的學者應該有主觀的判斷說我認為這個是好的或者我認為這個還沒有達標所以我們要強調這個方向\n\n10\n00:03:11,176 --> 00:03:33,196\n我觉得我还是很希望能够更具体的方法特别是对于社会社会贡献的东西到底如何来界定因为任何东西都要有一个量化的方法从主观的一个判断那我们就要看看你说的你这些的升等的领选的小组里面到底又是如何这才是为什么我们在大学里面大家很难突破这一点你讲的都非常的好可是十几年来\n\n11\n00:03:33,596 --> 00:04:00,425\n大学没有办法因为在没有办法看出他这个contribution特别是social这个部分里面的时候我们只好很被迫要用量的方法来做一个处理所以这叫慢慢的推动当然是所以说我说十年你已经解出来但是这个真的要把它落实其实非常困难所以我们期望在这个中原的部分能够引申作则然后特别是我还是要强调为什么要这么讲因为我们政府目前很多的经费我已经不断在讲技术发展的部分是45%应用研究是20%\n\n12\n00:04:03,266 --> 00:04:26,677\n真正到基础研究已经降到虽然说这个资源好像是有多但是你知道这个比例来说特别是基础研究相对于过去来说其实政府投注的比例是低的所以在这个原则之下面你怎么会认为大家会认为说我应该就是好好来来这边而且是对社会有贡献我觉得这个部分是政府的做法跟我们所希望达到的\n\n13\n00:04:27,037 --> 00:04:49,154\n这个东西是还是有一个落差的好吧希望说政府要加强这个当然是这个样子啊可是要数据就可以告诉你啊那特别是提到这个学术的交流我也刚刚看到你有提到的就是说有一篇但社会人文著作当中你有特别提到台湾跟中国之间的外交的关系但是呢我要请问一下院长啊之前教育部虽然你不归教育管但是教育部来管\n\n14\n00:04:49,594 --> 00:05:02,100\n然後呢但是你知道他也嚴格的限制了幾個學校是未來是完全是禁止的完全是禁止的但是呢這幾個禁止的學校裡面其實有社會人文跟這個領域裡面當中我想請問院長我也調出來了我們來看一下這其實有很多是不錯的學校中研院跟中國大陸具有他們所條列的黨政軍的學校交流狀況其實也有不少院長你認為是跟他們交流裡面你真的就會被統戰嗎\n\n15\n00:05:15,164 --> 00:05:30,885\n我們的交流裡面大部分都是研究人員主動跟對方一起合作的項目這方面我們具體的交流的方式跟經驗我們沒有說控管很清楚至於說\n\n16\n00:05:33,548 --> 00:05:56,545\n所以你会发落教育部的脚步吗因为这几个学校里面包括这个哈尔滨工程大学南京航太如果你要做这个领域的话他们其实彼此之间做学术上面的一个交流过去到现在我们也做过很多的学术交流我不觉得我过去会认为我会被他们做什么样的一个影响你认为中研院要发落这个教育部的脚步跟这十个学校过去也跟你们教的学校也完全禁止吗任何部分都禁止吗\n\n17\n00:05:57,465 --> 00:06:22,741\n這部分我們中研院做的比較少這個航空或工業不是我是說你會follow教育部的腳步禁止跟這十個學校來做部分嗎這是教育部中研院呢我們要follow政府的規定只要政府有規定我們只好就這樣做但是你贊同嗎那我們要看裡面的內容裡面內容就是你問過嘛所有的你們去過學術教的部分純粹就是在這個學術的裡面來做這個層面嗎\n\n18\n00:06:25,142 --> 00:06:41,013\n这七个学校我们的交流我不觉得很多所以你们虽然不亏教育部管你是亏总统府来管所以你认为未来在这个学术的交流部分里面你们就尽量往别的地方去而不跟这十个学校来做更进一步的一个流动\n\n19\n00:06:41,693 --> 00:06:45,936\n不是這個怎麼做是要看說我們怎麼樣避免跟人家交流所產生的壞處不會有的不是不會有就是你們中研院每個人在做學術部分我相信都會恪守學術上面的一個原則對我個人來說\n\n20\n00:06:57,964 --> 00:07:20,580\n我们都认为在做交流部分纯粹就是在做不同的就是很单纯的一个学术只是因为他们后面有党政军的一个色彩然后呢就影响这个部分我觉得就像你说的还是看交流内涵的一个层面而不是用一个具体的一个什么学校里面就完全是否定这样子的过去的一些研究上面的一个配合跟合作这是我要强调的好不好\n\n21\n00:07:21,681 --> 00:07:48,860\n然后呢接下来我还是要特别提到了有关于核能的部分因为你现在是我们环境变迁的这个小组当中的其中的一员然后呢你也不断的认为说核能当然是有这个优点也有一个缺点然后呢中研院其实已经特别提到有关于核安的问题你特别提到了你们对于第三plus代跟第四代在这个核分裂的反应磁器的安全度上你们认为其实是应该蛮安全的但是呢我再进这没有错吧\n\n22\n00:07:50,648 --> 00:08:10,364\n是否安全因為我們不是這個主管機關我們沒有辦法到現場去查核我們是就研究的層面我們是說技術上是可以把它變成很安全那是否我們現在的現有的場地技術上可以變安全所以說你有給政府技術是可行對技術是可行但是都還沒有開始做因為我後面再特別去調有關於你們中研院的一個計畫你們現在告訴我你們沒有這樣子的我們沒有這樣子完全沒有這個未來也不討論因為未來也不考慮\n\n23\n00:08:19,451 --> 00:08:36,833\n因為我們沒有這樣的人才所以沒有辦法這樣做對所以你們沒有辦法在這一塊多做一些的一個貢獻然後呢我們特別提到的但是呢有關於減碳目標我看你們有環境變遷的小組我剛剛看了一下很顯然並沒有往這一方面來做因為\n\n24\n00:08:37,654 --> 00:08:49,866\n我们过去来说我问过你你认为2030年有没有办法达到减碳你认为有点困难那赖总统还特别提到又提出一个2035的目标来做一个接轨院长以你目前来看是不是还是很困难\n\n25\n00:08:51,506 --> 00:09:07,952\n現在國際情勢瞬息萬變絕對萬變股票從川普昨天不到幾個小時當中完全大翻轉萬變所以我想我們要預測未來這個減碳會多少是非常困難的但是我們要強調說減碳是長期目標\n\n26\n00:09:11,053 --> 00:09:26,901\n絕對是長期目標但是以你目前來去看你就有這樣的一個機會嘛從2030你說沒有可能2035你要看看在美國在巴西他們都提出了這樣子的一個方式看到巴西在減碳這是他們的目標美國甚至認為要再減61%到66%以你目前的這個預估因為你畢竟在這個小組當中你也某種程度呼應了童子賢董事長的一個說法所以你認為2035來說的話你覺得機會大不大\n\n27\n00:09:38,854 --> 00:09:54,925\n我想我們不是談20重點不是要短期我們一再強調重點是要長期我們幫他檢探因為最新的研究至少這個越來越多的研究資料顯示全世界最糟的狀況不是在2030不是2035也不是2050是2075到\n\n28\n00:09:58,968 --> 00:10:02,611\n你當初很明確的說2030對台灣來說是有點困難即使再延後五年很顯然這樣一個目標只是我們的目標要實際做到還有非常多條件的配合這點你應該是可以同意吧那要看怎麼做嘛那當然是以目前的做法來看的話我個人覺得\n\n29\n00:10:23,149 --> 00:10:40,498\n是有点困难我们光是在讨论这些部分草野之间其实没有太大的一个讨论空间任何的议题里面只要被卡上一个到底要不要恢复核能核能到底是如何我们都已经没有空间我觉得这是我们在在这个部分里面在讨论的时候其实我个人认为颇为\n\n30\n00:10:42,259 --> 00:10:59,548\n难过的一个部分因为我们没有太多正向可以合理思考的空间最后我只用30秒的时间我还是要提醒院长一下因为中研院也是有AI推动的办公室里面有成立的几个不同的一个面向我刚刚看到你的简报但是我还是要提醒很重要的一点就是有关于AI\n\n31\n00:11:00,168 --> 00:11:03,910\n他目前為止已經從國科會目前可能是速發部要來做這樣的一個處理但是呢很多我們認為在AN基本法裡面應該最需要的就是有關於法律授權還有規範基本的權的評估目前為止我們目前為在這部法裡面是空缺的我只是期許因為我們中研院有非常多的不管是學界法界業界裡面你們都可以跨領域來做這個部分所以呢中研院應該\n\n32\n00:11:27,483 --> 00:11:28,664\n好谢谢提醒谢谢\n\n33\n00:11:56,547 --> 00:11:57,557\n好謝謝柯之恩\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4795\t7864\t谢谢赵伟我们现在请院长好有请廖院长\n11138\t39435\t各位委員早院長早明年六月你大概就是任期期滿了嘛所以應該是在現在謝謝OK好像送了一口雞蛋薯饅頭了所以距離今年六月的時候你們應該就開始成立的院長的臨選委員會嘛應該沒錯吧應該提前一年有個院長臨選委員會我們還是希望他還是能夠來秉持一個公正公開的原則不要像你上任之前有一堆的風風雨雨有一些政治因素的一個介入我們還是希望能夠\n40516\t54968\t也很平顺因为相对于你翁晴院长跟你比起来的话你的平和没有涉入政治等等来说应该还给中研院一个比较公平干净的一个空间这是一个期许好大家不用担心我的问题到此结束来\n57149\t81782\t不要愿意还是锁定在这个院长啊你在全国的校长会议里面提到我觉得你讲的东西非常的有道理啊就是台湾学术界都是跟社会脱钩而且制度偏重防弊解决问题对社会贡献才是有一个最大的一个目标所以不要去看论文的排名这是你当初所提到的嘛在全国校长会议我想很多人都深有同感而且您说要走出苏氏圈院长我真的要说啊\n82122\t108084\t你走出舒适圈这句话让很多院长很感慨因为中研院一定是所有人大家最羡慕的目标好不好各位你们几乎已经如果要做学术的话中研院绝对是一个大家非常向往的地方我现在要请问的就是当你提到这句话的时候其实你有反映在你们中研院内部的一些升等制度上面吗我们来看一下中研院的这个所谓的升等标准里面来看其实呢第六条里面\n109005\t120921\tpaper的产量虽然说你们认为要研究价值里面的部分要对这个社会的问题的解决等等但是无可厚非的还是在这个paper的产量来说这点院长应该不否认吧\n121755\t140741\t喔 對不起 這個好像不是這樣解釋的好 那請說我們希望說在審查的時候不要單以paper的數量甚至我期許這個審查的時候不要side這個到底發了多少paper而是要講說這邊paper做了什麼貢獻\n142021\t168904\t但是呢这就是我要问的嘛这是所有人都要问的因为我刚刚说你讲这句话深有同感但是所有的学界要说应该展现透过学术研究的成果来影响他人的可能性你如何来界定这个所谓的影响力而且你考核多久才有目前为止看不到我十年后才看得到这个部分你如何来界定因为这个就是中研院所以我们特别调出来看看你所东西有没有办法反映在你们自己院内的生存制度上面\n169544\t185133\t這考核上面我們是強調有兩個部分一個是客觀的證據就是您所提的說你怎麼樣求證另外一方面我們更要強調是要主觀的判斷身為一個學者特別是做音樂的學者應該有主觀的判斷說我認為這個是好的或者我認為這個還沒有達標所以我們要強調這個方向\n191176\t213196\t我觉得我还是很希望能够更具体的方法特别是对于社会社会贡献的东西到底如何来界定因为任何东西都要有一个量化的方法从主观的一个判断那我们就要看看你说的你这些的升等的领选的小组里面到底又是如何这才是为什么我们在大学里面大家很难突破这一点你讲的都非常的好可是十几年来\n213596\t240425\t大学没有办法因为在没有办法看出他这个contribution特别是social这个部分里面的时候我们只好很被迫要用量的方法来做一个处理所以这叫慢慢的推动当然是所以说我说十年你已经解出来但是这个真的要把它落实其实非常困难所以我们期望在这个中原的部分能够引申作则然后特别是我还是要强调为什么要这么讲因为我们政府目前很多的经费我已经不断在讲技术发展的部分是45%应用研究是20%\n243266\t266677\t真正到基础研究已经降到虽然说这个资源好像是有多但是你知道这个比例来说特别是基础研究相对于过去来说其实政府投注的比例是低的所以在这个原则之下面你怎么会认为大家会认为说我应该就是好好来来这边而且是对社会有贡献我觉得这个部分是政府的做法跟我们所希望达到的\n267037\t289154\t这个东西是还是有一个落差的好吧希望说政府要加强这个当然是这个样子啊可是要数据就可以告诉你啊那特别是提到这个学术的交流我也刚刚看到你有提到的就是说有一篇但社会人文著作当中你有特别提到台湾跟中国之间的外交的关系但是呢我要请问一下院长啊之前教育部虽然你不归教育管但是教育部来管\n289594\t302100\t然後呢但是你知道他也嚴格的限制了幾個學校是未來是完全是禁止的完全是禁止的但是呢這幾個禁止的學校裡面其實有社會人文跟這個領域裡面當中我想請問院長我也調出來了我們來看一下這其實有很多是不錯的學校中研院跟中國大陸具有他們所條列的黨政軍的學校交流狀況其實也有不少院長你認為是跟他們交流裡面你真的就會被統戰嗎\n315164\t330885\t我們的交流裡面大部分都是研究人員主動跟對方一起合作的項目這方面我們具體的交流的方式跟經驗我們沒有說控管很清楚至於說\n333548\t356545\t所以你会发落教育部的脚步吗因为这几个学校里面包括这个哈尔滨工程大学南京航太如果你要做这个领域的话他们其实彼此之间做学术上面的一个交流过去到现在我们也做过很多的学术交流我不觉得我过去会认为我会被他们做什么样的一个影响你认为中研院要发落这个教育部的脚步跟这十个学校过去也跟你们教的学校也完全禁止吗任何部分都禁止吗\n357465\t382741\t這部分我們中研院做的比較少這個航空或工業不是我是說你會follow教育部的腳步禁止跟這十個學校來做部分嗎這是教育部中研院呢我們要follow政府的規定只要政府有規定我們只好就這樣做但是你贊同嗎那我們要看裡面的內容裡面內容就是你問過嘛所有的你們去過學術教的部分純粹就是在這個學術的裡面來做這個層面嗎\n385142\t401013\t这七个学校我们的交流我不觉得很多所以你们虽然不亏教育部管你是亏总统府来管所以你认为未来在这个学术的交流部分里面你们就尽量往别的地方去而不跟这十个学校来做更进一步的一个流动\n401693\t405936\t不是這個怎麼做是要看說我們怎麼樣避免跟人家交流所產生的壞處不會有的不是不會有就是你們中研院每個人在做學術部分我相信都會恪守學術上面的一個原則對我個人來說\n417964\t440580\t我们都认为在做交流部分纯粹就是在做不同的就是很单纯的一个学术只是因为他们后面有党政军的一个色彩然后呢就影响这个部分我觉得就像你说的还是看交流内涵的一个层面而不是用一个具体的一个什么学校里面就完全是否定这样子的过去的一些研究上面的一个配合跟合作这是我要强调的好不好\n441681\t468860\t然后呢接下来我还是要特别提到了有关于核能的部分因为你现在是我们环境变迁的这个小组当中的其中的一员然后呢你也不断的认为说核能当然是有这个优点也有一个缺点然后呢中研院其实已经特别提到有关于核安的问题你特别提到了你们对于第三plus代跟第四代在这个核分裂的反应磁器的安全度上你们认为其实是应该蛮安全的但是呢我再进这没有错吧\n470648\t490364\t是否安全因為我們不是這個主管機關我們沒有辦法到現場去查核我們是就研究的層面我們是說技術上是可以把它變成很安全那是否我們現在的現有的場地技術上可以變安全所以說你有給政府技術是可行對 技術是可行但是都還沒有開始做因為我後面再特別去調有關於你們中研院的一個計畫你們現在告訴我你們沒有這樣子的我們沒有這樣子完全沒有這個未來也不討論因為未來也不考慮\n499451\t516833\t因為我們沒有這樣的人才所以沒有辦法這樣做對所以你們沒有辦法在這一塊多做一些的一個貢獻然後呢我們特別提到的但是呢有關於減碳目標我看你們有環境變遷的小組我剛剛看了一下很顯然並沒有往這一方面來做因為\n517654\t529866\t我们过去来说我问过你你认为2030年有没有办法达到减碳你认为有点困难那赖总统还特别提到又提出一个2035的目标来做一个接轨院长以你目前来看是不是还是很困难\n531506\t547952\t現在國際情勢瞬息萬變絕對萬變股票從川普昨天不到幾個小時當中完全大翻轉萬變所以我想我們要預測未來這個減碳會多少是非常困難的但是我們要強調說減碳是長期目標\n551053\t566901\t絕對是長期目標但是以你目前來去看你就有這樣的一個機會嘛從2030你說沒有可能2035你要看看在美國在巴西他們都提出了這樣子的一個方式看到巴西在減碳這是他們的目標美國甚至認為要再減61%到66%以你目前的這個預估因為你畢竟在這個小組當中你也某種程度呼應了童子賢董事長的一個說法所以你認為2035來說的話你覺得機會大不大\n578854\t594925\t我想我們不是談20 重點不是要短期我們一再強調重點是要長期我們幫他檢探因為最新的研究至少這個越來越多的研究資料顯示全世界最糟的狀況不是在2030不是2035也不是2050是2075到\n598968\t602611\t你當初很明確的說2030對台灣來說是有點困難即使再延後五年很顯然這樣一個目標只是我們的目標要實際做到還有非常多條件的配合這點你應該是可以同意吧那要看怎麼做嘛那當然是以目前的做法來看的話我個人覺得\n623149\t640498\t是有点困难我们光是在讨论这些部分草野之间其实没有太大的一个讨论空间任何的议题里面只要被卡上一个到底要不要恢复核能核能到底是如何我们都已经没有空间我觉得这是我们在在这个部分里面在讨论的时候其实我个人认为颇为\n642259\t659548\t难过的一个部分因为我们没有太多正向可以合理思考的空间最后我只用30秒的时间我还是要提醒院长一下因为中研院也是有AI推动的办公室里面有成立的几个不同的一个面向我刚刚看到你的简报但是我还是要提醒很重要的一点就是有关于AI\n660168\t663910\t他目前為止已經從國科會目前可能是速發部要來做這樣的一個處理但是呢很多我們認為在AN基本法裡面應該最需要的就是有關於法律授權還有規範基本的權的評估目前為止我們目前為在這部法裡面是空缺的我只是期許因為我們中研院有非常多的不管是學界法界業界裡面你們都可以跨領域來做這個部分所以呢中研院應該\n687483\t688664\t好 谢谢提醒谢谢\n716547\t717557\t好謝謝柯之恩\n","txt":"谢谢赵伟我们现在请院长好有请廖院长\n各位委員早院長早明年六月你大概就是任期期滿了嘛所以應該是在現在謝謝OK好像送了一口雞蛋薯饅頭了所以距離今年六月的時候你們應該就開始成立的院長的臨選委員會嘛應該沒錯吧應該提前一年有個院長臨選委員會我們還是希望他還是能夠來秉持一個公正公開的原則不要像你上任之前有一堆的風風雨雨有一些政治因素的一個介入我們還是希望能夠\n也很平顺因为相对于你翁晴院长跟你比起来的话你的平和没有涉入政治等等来说应该还给中研院一个比较公平干净的一个空间这是一个期许好大家不用担心我的问题到此结束来\n不要愿意还是锁定在这个院长啊你在全国的校长会议里面提到我觉得你讲的东西非常的有道理啊就是台湾学术界都是跟社会脱钩而且制度偏重防弊解决问题对社会贡献才是有一个最大的一个目标所以不要去看论文的排名这是你当初所提到的嘛在全国校长会议我想很多人都深有同感而且您说要走出苏氏圈院长我真的要说啊\n你走出舒适圈这句话让很多院长很感慨因为中研院一定是所有人大家最羡慕的目标好不好各位你们几乎已经如果要做学术的话中研院绝对是一个大家非常向往的地方我现在要请问的就是当你提到这句话的时候其实你有反映在你们中研院内部的一些升等制度上面吗我们来看一下中研院的这个所谓的升等标准里面来看其实呢第六条里面\npaper的产量虽然说你们认为要研究价值里面的部分要对这个社会的问题的解决等等但是无可厚非的还是在这个paper的产量来说这点院长应该不否认吧\n喔 對不起 這個好像不是這樣解釋的好 那請說我們希望說在審查的時候不要單以paper的數量甚至我期許這個審查的時候不要side這個到底發了多少paper而是要講說這邊paper做了什麼貢獻\n但是呢这就是我要问的嘛这是所有人都要问的因为我刚刚说你讲这句话深有同感但是所有的学界要说应该展现透过学术研究的成果来影响他人的可能性你如何来界定这个所谓的影响力而且你考核多久才有目前为止看不到我十年后才看得到这个部分你如何来界定因为这个就是中研院所以我们特别调出来看看你所东西有没有办法反映在你们自己院内的生存制度上面\n這考核上面我們是強調有兩個部分一個是客觀的證據就是您所提的說你怎麼樣求證另外一方面我們更要強調是要主觀的判斷身為一個學者特別是做音樂的學者應該有主觀的判斷說我認為這個是好的或者我認為這個還沒有達標所以我們要強調這個方向\n我觉得我还是很希望能够更具体的方法特别是对于社会社会贡献的东西到底如何来界定因为任何东西都要有一个量化的方法从主观的一个判断那我们就要看看你说的你这些的升等的领选的小组里面到底又是如何这才是为什么我们在大学里面大家很难突破这一点你讲的都非常的好可是十几年来\n大学没有办法因为在没有办法看出他这个contribution特别是social这个部分里面的时候我们只好很被迫要用量的方法来做一个处理所以这叫慢慢的推动当然是所以说我说十年你已经解出来但是这个真的要把它落实其实非常困难所以我们期望在这个中原的部分能够引申作则然后特别是我还是要强调为什么要这么讲因为我们政府目前很多的经费我已经不断在讲技术发展的部分是45%应用研究是20%\n真正到基础研究已经降到虽然说这个资源好像是有多但是你知道这个比例来说特别是基础研究相对于过去来说其实政府投注的比例是低的所以在这个原则之下面你怎么会认为大家会认为说我应该就是好好来来这边而且是对社会有贡献我觉得这个部分是政府的做法跟我们所希望达到的\n这个东西是还是有一个落差的好吧希望说政府要加强这个当然是这个样子啊可是要数据就可以告诉你啊那特别是提到这个学术的交流我也刚刚看到你有提到的就是说有一篇但社会人文著作当中你有特别提到台湾跟中国之间的外交的关系但是呢我要请问一下院长啊之前教育部虽然你不归教育管但是教育部来管\n然後呢但是你知道他也嚴格的限制了幾個學校是未來是完全是禁止的完全是禁止的但是呢這幾個禁止的學校裡面其實有社會人文跟這個領域裡面當中我想請問院長我也調出來了我們來看一下這其實有很多是不錯的學校中研院跟中國大陸具有他們所條列的黨政軍的學校交流狀況其實也有不少院長你認為是跟他們交流裡面你真的就會被統戰嗎\n我們的交流裡面大部分都是研究人員主動跟對方一起合作的項目這方面我們具體的交流的方式跟經驗我們沒有說控管很清楚至於說\n所以你会发落教育部的脚步吗因为这几个学校里面包括这个哈尔滨工程大学南京航太如果你要做这个领域的话他们其实彼此之间做学术上面的一个交流过去到现在我们也做过很多的学术交流我不觉得我过去会认为我会被他们做什么样的一个影响你认为中研院要发落这个教育部的脚步跟这十个学校过去也跟你们教的学校也完全禁止吗任何部分都禁止吗\n這部分我們中研院做的比較少這個航空或工業不是我是說你會follow教育部的腳步禁止跟這十個學校來做部分嗎這是教育部中研院呢我們要follow政府的規定只要政府有規定我們只好就這樣做但是你贊同嗎那我們要看裡面的內容裡面內容就是你問過嘛所有的你們去過學術教的部分純粹就是在這個學術的裡面來做這個層面嗎\n这七个学校我们的交流我不觉得很多所以你们虽然不亏教育部管你是亏总统府来管所以你认为未来在这个学术的交流部分里面你们就尽量往别的地方去而不跟这十个学校来做更进一步的一个流动\n不是這個怎麼做是要看說我們怎麼樣避免跟人家交流所產生的壞處不會有的不是不會有就是你們中研院每個人在做學術部分我相信都會恪守學術上面的一個原則對我個人來說\n我们都认为在做交流部分纯粹就是在做不同的就是很单纯的一个学术只是因为他们后面有党政军的一个色彩然后呢就影响这个部分我觉得就像你说的还是看交流内涵的一个层面而不是用一个具体的一个什么学校里面就完全是否定这样子的过去的一些研究上面的一个配合跟合作这是我要强调的好不好\n然后呢接下来我还是要特别提到了有关于核能的部分因为你现在是我们环境变迁的这个小组当中的其中的一员然后呢你也不断的认为说核能当然是有这个优点也有一个缺点然后呢中研院其实已经特别提到有关于核安的问题你特别提到了你们对于第三plus代跟第四代在这个核分裂的反应磁器的安全度上你们认为其实是应该蛮安全的但是呢我再进这没有错吧\n是否安全因為我們不是這個主管機關我們沒有辦法到現場去查核我們是就研究的層面我們是說技術上是可以把它變成很安全那是否我們現在的現有的場地技術上可以變安全所以說你有給政府技術是可行對 技術是可行但是都還沒有開始做因為我後面再特別去調有關於你們中研院的一個計畫你們現在告訴我你們沒有這樣子的我們沒有這樣子完全沒有這個未來也不討論因為未來也不考慮\n因為我們沒有這樣的人才所以沒有辦法這樣做對所以你們沒有辦法在這一塊多做一些的一個貢獻然後呢我們特別提到的但是呢有關於減碳目標我看你們有環境變遷的小組我剛剛看了一下很顯然並沒有往這一方面來做因為\n我们过去来说我问过你你认为2030年有没有办法达到减碳你认为有点困难那赖总统还特别提到又提出一个2035的目标来做一个接轨院长以你目前来看是不是还是很困难\n現在國際情勢瞬息萬變絕對萬變股票從川普昨天不到幾個小時當中完全大翻轉萬變所以我想我們要預測未來這個減碳會多少是非常困難的但是我們要強調說減碳是長期目標\n絕對是長期目標但是以你目前來去看你就有這樣的一個機會嘛從2030你說沒有可能2035你要看看在美國在巴西他們都提出了這樣子的一個方式看到巴西在減碳這是他們的目標美國甚至認為要再減61%到66%以你目前的這個預估因為你畢竟在這個小組當中你也某種程度呼應了童子賢董事長的一個說法所以你認為2035來說的話你覺得機會大不大\n我想我們不是談20 重點不是要短期我們一再強調重點是要長期我們幫他檢探因為最新的研究至少這個越來越多的研究資料顯示全世界最糟的狀況不是在2030不是2035也不是2050是2075到\n你當初很明確的說2030對台灣來說是有點困難即使再延後五年很顯然這樣一個目標只是我們的目標要實際做到還有非常多條件的配合這點你應該是可以同意吧那要看怎麼做嘛那當然是以目前的做法來看的話我個人覺得\n是有点困难我们光是在讨论这些部分草野之间其实没有太大的一个讨论空间任何的议题里面只要被卡上一个到底要不要恢复核能核能到底是如何我们都已经没有空间我觉得这是我们在在这个部分里面在讨论的时候其实我个人认为颇为\n难过的一个部分因为我们没有太多正向可以合理思考的空间最后我只用30秒的时间我还是要提醒院长一下因为中研院也是有AI推动的办公室里面有成立的几个不同的一个面向我刚刚看到你的简报但是我还是要提醒很重要的一点就是有关于AI\n他目前為止已經從國科會目前可能是速發部要來做這樣的一個處理但是呢很多我們認為在AN基本法裡面應該最需要的就是有關於法律授權還有規範基本的權的評估目前為止我們目前為在這部法裡面是空缺的我只是期許因為我們中研院有非常多的不管是學界法界業界裡面你們都可以跨領域來做這個部分所以呢中研院應該\n好 谢谢提醒谢谢\n好謝謝柯之恩\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.795 --> 00:07.864\n谢谢赵伟我们现在请院长好有请廖院长\n\n00:11.138 --> 00:39.435\n各位委員早院長早明年六月你大概就是任期期滿了嘛所以應該是在現在謝謝OK好像送了一口雞蛋薯饅頭了所以距離今年六月的時候你們應該就開始成立的院長的臨選委員會嘛應該沒錯吧應該提前一年有個院長臨選委員會我們還是希望他還是能夠來秉持一個公正公開的原則不要像你上任之前有一堆的風風雨雨有一些政治因素的一個介入我們還是希望能夠\n\n00:40.516 --> 00:54.968\n也很平顺因为相对于你翁晴院长跟你比起来的话你的平和没有涉入政治等等来说应该还给中研院一个比较公平干净的一个空间这是一个期许好大家不用担心我的问题到此结束来\n\n00:57.149 --> 01:21.782\n不要愿意还是锁定在这个院长啊你在全国的校长会议里面提到我觉得你讲的东西非常的有道理啊就是台湾学术界都是跟社会脱钩而且制度偏重防弊解决问题对社会贡献才是有一个最大的一个目标所以不要去看论文的排名这是你当初所提到的嘛在全国校长会议我想很多人都深有同感而且您说要走出苏氏圈院长我真的要说啊\n\n01:22.122 --> 01:48.084\n你走出舒适圈这句话让很多院长很感慨因为中研院一定是所有人大家最羡慕的目标好不好各位你们几乎已经如果要做学术的话中研院绝对是一个大家非常向往的地方我现在要请问的就是当你提到这句话的时候其实你有反映在你们中研院内部的一些升等制度上面吗我们来看一下中研院的这个所谓的升等标准里面来看其实呢第六条里面\n\n01:49.005 --> 02:00.921\npaper的产量虽然说你们认为要研究价值里面的部分要对这个社会的问题的解决等等但是无可厚非的还是在这个paper的产量来说这点院长应该不否认吧\n\n02:01.755 --> 02:20.741\n喔對不起這個好像不是這樣解釋的好那請說我們希望說在審查的時候不要單以paper的數量甚至我期許這個審查的時候不要side這個到底發了多少paper而是要講說這邊paper做了什麼貢獻\n\n02:22.021 --> 02:48.904\n但是呢这就是我要问的嘛这是所有人都要问的因为我刚刚说你讲这句话深有同感但是所有的学界要说应该展现透过学术研究的成果来影响他人的可能性你如何来界定这个所谓的影响力而且你考核多久才有目前为止看不到我十年后才看得到这个部分你如何来界定因为这个就是中研院所以我们特别调出来看看你所东西有没有办法反映在你们自己院内的生存制度上面\n\n02:49.544 --> 03:05.133\n這考核上面我們是強調有兩個部分一個是客觀的證據就是您所提的說你怎麼樣求證另外一方面我們更要強調是要主觀的判斷身為一個學者特別是做音樂的學者應該有主觀的判斷說我認為這個是好的或者我認為這個還沒有達標所以我們要強調這個方向\n\n03:11.176 --> 03:33.196\n我觉得我还是很希望能够更具体的方法特别是对于社会社会贡献的东西到底如何来界定因为任何东西都要有一个量化的方法从主观的一个判断那我们就要看看你说的你这些的升等的领选的小组里面到底又是如何这才是为什么我们在大学里面大家很难突破这一点你讲的都非常的好可是十几年来\n\n03:33.596 --> 04:00.425\n大学没有办法因为在没有办法看出他这个contribution特别是social这个部分里面的时候我们只好很被迫要用量的方法来做一个处理所以这叫慢慢的推动当然是所以说我说十年你已经解出来但是这个真的要把它落实其实非常困难所以我们期望在这个中原的部分能够引申作则然后特别是我还是要强调为什么要这么讲因为我们政府目前很多的经费我已经不断在讲技术发展的部分是45%应用研究是20%\n\n04:03.266 --> 04:26.677\n真正到基础研究已经降到虽然说这个资源好像是有多但是你知道这个比例来说特别是基础研究相对于过去来说其实政府投注的比例是低的所以在这个原则之下面你怎么会认为大家会认为说我应该就是好好来来这边而且是对社会有贡献我觉得这个部分是政府的做法跟我们所希望达到的\n\n04:27.037 --> 04:49.154\n这个东西是还是有一个落差的好吧希望说政府要加强这个当然是这个样子啊可是要数据就可以告诉你啊那特别是提到这个学术的交流我也刚刚看到你有提到的就是说有一篇但社会人文著作当中你有特别提到台湾跟中国之间的外交的关系但是呢我要请问一下院长啊之前教育部虽然你不归教育管但是教育部来管\n\n04:49.594 --> 05:02.100\n然後呢但是你知道他也嚴格的限制了幾個學校是未來是完全是禁止的完全是禁止的但是呢這幾個禁止的學校裡面其實有社會人文跟這個領域裡面當中我想請問院長我也調出來了我們來看一下這其實有很多是不錯的學校中研院跟中國大陸具有他們所條列的黨政軍的學校交流狀況其實也有不少院長你認為是跟他們交流裡面你真的就會被統戰嗎\n\n05:15.164 --> 05:30.885\n我們的交流裡面大部分都是研究人員主動跟對方一起合作的項目這方面我們具體的交流的方式跟經驗我們沒有說控管很清楚至於說\n\n05:33.548 --> 05:56.545\n所以你会发落教育部的脚步吗因为这几个学校里面包括这个哈尔滨工程大学南京航太如果你要做这个领域的话他们其实彼此之间做学术上面的一个交流过去到现在我们也做过很多的学术交流我不觉得我过去会认为我会被他们做什么样的一个影响你认为中研院要发落这个教育部的脚步跟这十个学校过去也跟你们教的学校也完全禁止吗任何部分都禁止吗\n\n05:57.465 --> 06:22.741\n這部分我們中研院做的比較少這個航空或工業不是我是說你會follow教育部的腳步禁止跟這十個學校來做部分嗎這是教育部中研院呢我們要follow政府的規定只要政府有規定我們只好就這樣做但是你贊同嗎那我們要看裡面的內容裡面內容就是你問過嘛所有的你們去過學術教的部分純粹就是在這個學術的裡面來做這個層面嗎\n\n06:25.142 --> 06:41.013\n这七个学校我们的交流我不觉得很多所以你们虽然不亏教育部管你是亏总统府来管所以你认为未来在这个学术的交流部分里面你们就尽量往别的地方去而不跟这十个学校来做更进一步的一个流动\n\n06:41.693 --> 06:45.936\n不是這個怎麼做是要看說我們怎麼樣避免跟人家交流所產生的壞處不會有的不是不會有就是你們中研院每個人在做學術部分我相信都會恪守學術上面的一個原則對我個人來說\n\n06:57.964 --> 07:20.580\n我们都认为在做交流部分纯粹就是在做不同的就是很单纯的一个学术只是因为他们后面有党政军的一个色彩然后呢就影响这个部分我觉得就像你说的还是看交流内涵的一个层面而不是用一个具体的一个什么学校里面就完全是否定这样子的过去的一些研究上面的一个配合跟合作这是我要强调的好不好\n\n07:21.681 --> 07:48.860\n然后呢接下来我还是要特别提到了有关于核能的部分因为你现在是我们环境变迁的这个小组当中的其中的一员然后呢你也不断的认为说核能当然是有这个优点也有一个缺点然后呢中研院其实已经特别提到有关于核安的问题你特别提到了你们对于第三plus代跟第四代在这个核分裂的反应磁器的安全度上你们认为其实是应该蛮安全的但是呢我再进这没有错吧\n\n07:50.648 --> 08:10.364\n是否安全因為我們不是這個主管機關我們沒有辦法到現場去查核我們是就研究的層面我們是說技術上是可以把它變成很安全那是否我們現在的現有的場地技術上可以變安全所以說你有給政府技術是可行對技術是可行但是都還沒有開始做因為我後面再特別去調有關於你們中研院的一個計畫你們現在告訴我你們沒有這樣子的我們沒有這樣子完全沒有這個未來也不討論因為未來也不考慮\n\n08:19.451 --> 08:36.833\n因為我們沒有這樣的人才所以沒有辦法這樣做對所以你們沒有辦法在這一塊多做一些的一個貢獻然後呢我們特別提到的但是呢有關於減碳目標我看你們有環境變遷的小組我剛剛看了一下很顯然並沒有往這一方面來做因為\n\n08:37.654 --> 08:49.866\n我们过去来说我问过你你认为2030年有没有办法达到减碳你认为有点困难那赖总统还特别提到又提出一个2035的目标来做一个接轨院长以你目前来看是不是还是很困难\n\n08:51.506 --> 09:07.952\n現在國際情勢瞬息萬變絕對萬變股票從川普昨天不到幾個小時當中完全大翻轉萬變所以我想我們要預測未來這個減碳會多少是非常困難的但是我們要強調說減碳是長期目標\n\n09:11.053 --> 09:26.901\n絕對是長期目標但是以你目前來去看你就有這樣的一個機會嘛從2030你說沒有可能2035你要看看在美國在巴西他們都提出了這樣子的一個方式看到巴西在減碳這是他們的目標美國甚至認為要再減61%到66%以你目前的這個預估因為你畢竟在這個小組當中你也某種程度呼應了童子賢董事長的一個說法所以你認為2035來說的話你覺得機會大不大\n\n09:38.854 --> 09:54.925\n我想我們不是談20重點不是要短期我們一再強調重點是要長期我們幫他檢探因為最新的研究至少這個越來越多的研究資料顯示全世界最糟的狀況不是在2030不是2035也不是2050是2075到\n\n09:58.968 --> 10:02.611\n你當初很明確的說2030對台灣來說是有點困難即使再延後五年很顯然這樣一個目標只是我們的目標要實際做到還有非常多條件的配合這點你應該是可以同意吧那要看怎麼做嘛那當然是以目前的做法來看的話我個人覺得\n\n10:23.149 --> 10:40.498\n是有点困难我们光是在讨论这些部分草野之间其实没有太大的一个讨论空间任何的议题里面只要被卡上一个到底要不要恢复核能核能到底是如何我们都已经没有空间我觉得这是我们在在这个部分里面在讨论的时候其实我个人认为颇为\n\n10:42.259 --> 10:59.548\n难过的一个部分因为我们没有太多正向可以合理思考的空间最后我只用30秒的时间我还是要提醒院长一下因为中研院也是有AI推动的办公室里面有成立的几个不同的一个面向我刚刚看到你的简报但是我还是要提醒很重要的一点就是有关于AI\n\n11:00.168 --> 11:03.910\n他目前為止已經從國科會目前可能是速發部要來做這樣的一個處理但是呢很多我們認為在AN基本法裡面應該最需要的就是有關於法律授權還有規範基本的權的評估目前為止我們目前為在這部法裡面是空缺的我只是期許因為我們中研院有非常多的不管是學界法界業界裡面你們都可以跨領域來做這個部分所以呢中研院應該\n\n11:27.483 --> 11:28.664\n好谢谢提醒谢谢\n\n11:56.547 --> 11:57.557\n好謝謝柯之恩\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.795,"end":7.864,"text":"谢谢赵伟我们现在请院长好有请廖院长"},{"start":11.138,"end":39.435,"text":"各位委員早院長早明年六月你大概就是任期期滿了嘛所以應該是在現在謝謝OK好像送了一口雞蛋薯饅頭了所以距離今年六月的時候你們應該就開始成立的院長的臨選委員會嘛應該沒錯吧應該提前一年有個院長臨選委員會我們還是希望他還是能夠來秉持一個公正公開的原則不要像你上任之前有一堆的風風雨雨有一些政治因素的一個介入我們還是希望能夠"},{"start":40.516,"end":54.968,"text":"也很平顺因为相对于你翁晴院长跟你比起来的话你的平和没有涉入政治等等来说应该还给中研院一个比较公平干净的一个空间这是一个期许好大家不用担心我的问题到此结束来"},{"start":57.149,"end":81.782,"text":"不要愿意还是锁定在这个院长啊你在全国的校长会议里面提到我觉得你讲的东西非常的有道理啊就是台湾学术界都是跟社会脱钩而且制度偏重防弊解决问题对社会贡献才是有一个最大的一个目标所以不要去看论文的排名这是你当初所提到的嘛在全国校长会议我想很多人都深有同感而且您说要走出苏氏圈院长我真的要说啊"},{"start":82.122,"end":108.084,"text":"你走出舒适圈这句话让很多院长很感慨因为中研院一定是所有人大家最羡慕的目标好不好各位你们几乎已经如果要做学术的话中研院绝对是一个大家非常向往的地方我现在要请问的就是当你提到这句话的时候其实你有反映在你们中研院内部的一些升等制度上面吗我们来看一下中研院的这个所谓的升等标准里面来看其实呢第六条里面"},{"start":109.005,"end":120.921,"text":"paper的产量虽然说你们认为要研究价值里面的部分要对这个社会的问题的解决等等但是无可厚非的还是在这个paper的产量来说这点院长应该不否认吧"},{"start":121.755,"end":140.741,"text":"喔 對不起 這個好像不是這樣解釋的好 那請說我們希望說在審查的時候不要單以paper的數量甚至我期許這個審查的時候不要side這個到底發了多少paper而是要講說這邊paper做了什麼貢獻"},{"start":142.021,"end":168.904,"text":"但是呢这就是我要问的嘛这是所有人都要问的因为我刚刚说你讲这句话深有同感但是所有的学界要说应该展现透过学术研究的成果来影响他人的可能性你如何来界定这个所谓的影响力而且你考核多久才有目前为止看不到我十年后才看得到这个部分你如何来界定因为这个就是中研院所以我们特别调出来看看你所东西有没有办法反映在你们自己院内的生存制度上面"},{"start":169.544,"end":185.133,"text":"這考核上面我們是強調有兩個部分一個是客觀的證據就是您所提的說你怎麼樣求證另外一方面我們更要強調是要主觀的判斷身為一個學者特別是做音樂的學者應該有主觀的判斷說我認為這個是好的或者我認為這個還沒有達標所以我們要強調這個方向"},{"start":191.176,"end":213.196,"text":"我觉得我还是很希望能够更具体的方法特别是对于社会社会贡献的东西到底如何来界定因为任何东西都要有一个量化的方法从主观的一个判断那我们就要看看你说的你这些的升等的领选的小组里面到底又是如何这才是为什么我们在大学里面大家很难突破这一点你讲的都非常的好可是十几年来"},{"start":213.596,"end":240.425,"text":"大学没有办法因为在没有办法看出他这个contribution特别是social这个部分里面的时候我们只好很被迫要用量的方法来做一个处理所以这叫慢慢的推动当然是所以说我说十年你已经解出来但是这个真的要把它落实其实非常困难所以我们期望在这个中原的部分能够引申作则然后特别是我还是要强调为什么要这么讲因为我们政府目前很多的经费我已经不断在讲技术发展的部分是45%应用研究是20%"},{"start":243.266,"end":266.677,"text":"真正到基础研究已经降到虽然说这个资源好像是有多但是你知道这个比例来说特别是基础研究相对于过去来说其实政府投注的比例是低的所以在这个原则之下面你怎么会认为大家会认为说我应该就是好好来来这边而且是对社会有贡献我觉得这个部分是政府的做法跟我们所希望达到的"},{"start":267.037,"end":289.154,"text":"这个东西是还是有一个落差的好吧希望说政府要加强这个当然是这个样子啊可是要数据就可以告诉你啊那特别是提到这个学术的交流我也刚刚看到你有提到的就是说有一篇但社会人文著作当中你有特别提到台湾跟中国之间的外交的关系但是呢我要请问一下院长啊之前教育部虽然你不归教育管但是教育部来管"},{"start":289.594,"end":302.1,"text":"然後呢但是你知道他也嚴格的限制了幾個學校是未來是完全是禁止的完全是禁止的但是呢這幾個禁止的學校裡面其實有社會人文跟這個領域裡面當中我想請問院長我也調出來了我們來看一下這其實有很多是不錯的學校中研院跟中國大陸具有他們所條列的黨政軍的學校交流狀況其實也有不少院長你認為是跟他們交流裡面你真的就會被統戰嗎"},{"start":315.164,"end":330.885,"text":"我們的交流裡面大部分都是研究人員主動跟對方一起合作的項目這方面我們具體的交流的方式跟經驗我們沒有說控管很清楚至於說"},{"start":333.548,"end":356.545,"text":"所以你会发落教育部的脚步吗因为这几个学校里面包括这个哈尔滨工程大学南京航太如果你要做这个领域的话他们其实彼此之间做学术上面的一个交流过去到现在我们也做过很多的学术交流我不觉得我过去会认为我会被他们做什么样的一个影响你认为中研院要发落这个教育部的脚步跟这十个学校过去也跟你们教的学校也完全禁止吗任何部分都禁止吗"},{"start":357.465,"end":382.741,"text":"這部分我們中研院做的比較少這個航空或工業不是我是說你會follow教育部的腳步禁止跟這十個學校來做部分嗎這是教育部中研院呢我們要follow政府的規定只要政府有規定我們只好就這樣做但是你贊同嗎那我們要看裡面的內容裡面內容就是你問過嘛所有的你們去過學術教的部分純粹就是在這個學術的裡面來做這個層面嗎"},{"start":385.142,"end":401.013,"text":"这七个学校我们的交流我不觉得很多所以你们虽然不亏教育部管你是亏总统府来管所以你认为未来在这个学术的交流部分里面你们就尽量往别的地方去而不跟这十个学校来做更进一步的一个流动"},{"start":401.693,"end":405.936,"text":"不是這個怎麼做是要看說我們怎麼樣避免跟人家交流所產生的壞處不會有的不是不會有就是你們中研院每個人在做學術部分我相信都會恪守學術上面的一個原則對我個人來說"},{"start":417.964,"end":440.58,"text":"我们都认为在做交流部分纯粹就是在做不同的就是很单纯的一个学术只是因为他们后面有党政军的一个色彩然后呢就影响这个部分我觉得就像你说的还是看交流内涵的一个层面而不是用一个具体的一个什么学校里面就完全是否定这样子的过去的一些研究上面的一个配合跟合作这是我要强调的好不好"},{"start":441.681,"end":468.86,"text":"然后呢接下来我还是要特别提到了有关于核能的部分因为你现在是我们环境变迁的这个小组当中的其中的一员然后呢你也不断的认为说核能当然是有这个优点也有一个缺点然后呢中研院其实已经特别提到有关于核安的问题你特别提到了你们对于第三plus代跟第四代在这个核分裂的反应磁器的安全度上你们认为其实是应该蛮安全的但是呢我再进这没有错吧"},{"start":470.648,"end":490.364,"text":"是否安全因為我們不是這個主管機關我們沒有辦法到現場去查核我們是就研究的層面我們是說技術上是可以把它變成很安全那是否我們現在的現有的場地技術上可以變安全所以說你有給政府技術是可行對 技術是可行但是都還沒有開始做因為我後面再特別去調有關於你們中研院的一個計畫你們現在告訴我你們沒有這樣子的我們沒有這樣子完全沒有這個未來也不討論因為未來也不考慮"},{"start":499.451,"end":516.833,"text":"因為我們沒有這樣的人才所以沒有辦法這樣做對所以你們沒有辦法在這一塊多做一些的一個貢獻然後呢我們特別提到的但是呢有關於減碳目標我看你們有環境變遷的小組我剛剛看了一下很顯然並沒有往這一方面來做因為"},{"start":517.654,"end":529.866,"text":"我们过去来说我问过你你认为2030年有没有办法达到减碳你认为有点困难那赖总统还特别提到又提出一个2035的目标来做一个接轨院长以你目前来看是不是还是很困难"},{"start":531.506,"end":547.952,"text":"現在國際情勢瞬息萬變絕對萬變股票從川普昨天不到幾個小時當中完全大翻轉萬變所以我想我們要預測未來這個減碳會多少是非常困難的但是我們要強調說減碳是長期目標"},{"start":551.053,"end":566.901,"text":"絕對是長期目標但是以你目前來去看你就有這樣的一個機會嘛從2030你說沒有可能2035你要看看在美國在巴西他們都提出了這樣子的一個方式看到巴西在減碳這是他們的目標美國甚至認為要再減61%到66%以你目前的這個預估因為你畢竟在這個小組當中你也某種程度呼應了童子賢董事長的一個說法所以你認為2035來說的話你覺得機會大不大"},{"start":578.854,"end":594.925,"text":"我想我們不是談20 重點不是要短期我們一再強調重點是要長期我們幫他檢探因為最新的研究至少這個越來越多的研究資料顯示全世界最糟的狀況不是在2030不是2035也不是2050是2075到"},{"start":598.968,"end":602.611,"text":"你當初很明確的說2030對台灣來說是有點困難即使再延後五年很顯然這樣一個目標只是我們的目標要實際做到還有非常多條件的配合這點你應該是可以同意吧那要看怎麼做嘛那當然是以目前的做法來看的話我個人覺得"},{"start":623.149,"end":640.498,"text":"是有点困难我们光是在讨论这些部分草野之间其实没有太大的一个讨论空间任何的议题里面只要被卡上一个到底要不要恢复核能核能到底是如何我们都已经没有空间我觉得这是我们在在这个部分里面在讨论的时候其实我个人认为颇为"},{"start":642.259,"end":659.548,"text":"难过的一个部分因为我们没有太多正向可以合理思考的空间最后我只用30秒的时间我还是要提醒院长一下因为中研院也是有AI推动的办公室里面有成立的几个不同的一个面向我刚刚看到你的简报但是我还是要提醒很重要的一点就是有关于AI"},{"start":660.168,"end":663.91,"text":"他目前為止已經從國科會目前可能是速發部要來做這樣的一個處理但是呢很多我們認為在AN基本法裡面應該最需要的就是有關於法律授權還有規範基本的權的評估目前為止我們目前為在這部法裡面是空缺的我只是期許因為我們中研院有非常多的不管是學界法界業界裡面你們都可以跨領域來做這個部分所以呢中研院應該"},{"start":687.483,"end":688.664,"text":"好 谢谢提醒谢谢"},{"start":716.547,"end":717.557,"text":"好謝謝柯之恩"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":117,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時30分）謝謝召委，請院長。"],["主席：有請廖院長。"],["廖院長俊智：柯委員早。"],["柯委員志恩：院長早。明年6月你大概就任期期滿了嘛，所以應該是在現在……"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝。"],["柯委員志恩：謝謝？OK，好像鬆了一口氣要數饅頭了，所以今年6月的時候你們應該就要開始成立院長遴選委員會了嘛，應該沒錯吧？應該提前一年就會有個院長遴選委員會。"],["廖院長俊智：是。"],["柯委員志恩：我們還是希望它能夠來秉持著公正、公開的原則，不要像你上任之前有一堆的風風雨雨、有一些政治因素的介入，我們還是希望能夠一切很平順，因為相對於你，翁前院長跟你比起來的話，你的平和、沒有涉入政治等等來說，應該還給中研院一個比較公平、乾淨的空間，這是一個期許。大家不用擔心，我的問題到此結束。","我還是鎖定在院長，你在全國校長會議裡面提到的，我覺得你講的東西非常有道理，就是臺灣學術界跟社會脫鉤且制度偏重防弊，解決問題、貢獻社會才應該是最大的目標，所以不要去看論文的排名，這是你當初在全國校長會議所提到的嘛，我想很多人都深有同感，而且您說要走出舒適圈，院長，我真的要說，走出舒適圈這句話讓很多院長很感慨，因為中研院一定是所有人最羨慕的目標，各位，如果要做學術的話，中研院絕對是一個大家非常嚮往的地方。我現在要請問的就是，當你提到這句話的時候，你有反映在中研院內部的一些升等制度上面嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["柯委員志恩：我們來看一下，以中央研究院研究人員新聘、續聘、升等及特聘審議作業要點第六條來看，有關paper的產量，雖然你們認為要有研究價值，還有對社會問題的解決等等，但是無可厚非的，還是會以paper的產量來看，這點院長應該不否認吧？"],["廖院長俊智：對不起，這個好像不是這樣解釋的。"],["柯委員志恩：好，那請說。"],["廖院長俊智：我們希望在審查的時候不要單以paper的數量，甚至我期許審查的時候不要cite到底發了多少paper，而是要說這篇paper做了什麼貢獻、它的角色是什麼……"],["柯委員志恩：是，但是這就是我要問的嘛，這也是所有人都要問的，因為我剛剛說你講這句話深有同感，但是所有的學界要說，應該展現透過學術研究的成果來影響他人的可能性，你如何來界定這個所謂的影響力？而且你的考核都索久才有，目前為止看不到，我10年後才看得到這個部分，你如何來界定？因為這個就是中研院，所以我們特別調出來，看看你所說的東西有沒有辦法反映在你們自己院內的升等制度上面。"],["廖院長俊智：在考核上面，我們是強調兩個部分，一個是客觀的證據，就是您所提的怎麼樣求證；另外一方面，我們更要強調的是主觀的判斷，身為一個學者，特別是中研院的學者，應該要有主觀的判斷，我認為這個是好的或者我認為這個還沒有達標，所以我們要強調這個方向。"],["柯委員志恩：我覺得我還是很希望能夠有更具體的方法，特別是對於社會貢獻，social contribution這個東西到底如何來界定，因為任何東西都要有一個量化的方法，這種主觀的判斷，那我們就要看看你說的跟你這些升等遴選小組裡面到底又是如何，這才是為什麼在大學裡面大家很難突破這一點，你講的都非常好，可是這十幾年來，大學沒有辦法，因為沒有辦法看出這個contribution，特別是在social這個部分的時候，我們只好很被迫要用量的方法來做一個處理，所以說……"],["廖院長俊智：這就要慢慢地推動，這沒辦法馬上……"],["柯委員志恩：當然是，所以我說10年，你已經指出來，但是這個真的要把它落實其實非常困難，所以我們期望在中研院的部分能夠以身作則。"],["廖院長俊智：是。"],["柯委員志恩：特別是我還是要強調，我已經不斷的在講，以我們政府目前投入經費的比率來看，技術發展部分是45%，應用研究是28%，真正到基礎研究的經費已經下降了，雖然這個資源看起來好像是有多，但是以這個比率來說，特別是基礎研究，相對於過去，其實政府投資的比率是低的……"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["柯委員志恩：所以在這個原則之下，大家會認為我應該就是好好的來這邊，而且是對社會有貢獻，我覺得政府的作法跟我們所希望達到的，這個中間還是有一個落差，好不好？"],["廖院長俊智：是，我們希望政府要加強……"],["柯委員志恩：當然是這個樣子啊！可是這個數據就可以告訴你，特別是提到學術的交流，我剛剛也看到你有提到的就是，有一篇社會人文著作當中，你有特別提到臺灣跟中國之間的外交關係，但是我要請問一下院長，之前教育部，雖然你不歸教育部管，但是你知道，教育部也嚴格的限制了幾個學校未來是完全禁止交流的，但是這幾個被禁止的學校當中其實也有社會人文的領域，我想請問院長，我也調出來了，我們來看一下，其中有很多是不錯的學校，中研院跟中國大陸具黨政軍背景的學校交流的狀況其實也有不少，院長，你認為跟他們的交流裡面，你真的就會被統戰嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：我們的交流裡面，大部分都是研究人員主動跟對方一起合作項目，這方面我們具體的交流方式跟經驗，我們沒有控管得很清楚，所以這方面，至於教育部所規定……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你會follow教育部的腳步嗎？這幾個學校裡面，包括哈爾濱工程大學、南京航太，如果你要做這個領域的話，他們其實彼此之間做學術上面的交流，過去到現在我們也做過很多學術交流，我不覺得過去雙方交流，我會被他們做什麼樣的影響。你認為中研院要follow教育部的腳步，跟過去也跟你們交流的這10個學校，也完全禁止嗎？任何的部分都禁止嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：這部分我們中研院做得比較少，航空工業這方面……"],["柯委員志恩：不是，我是說你會follow教育部的腳步，禁止跟這10個學校來做交流嗎？這是教育部的禁令，你們中研院呢？"],["廖院長俊智：我們要follow政府的規定，只要政府有規定，我們只好就這樣做。"],["柯委員志恩：但是你贊同嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：我們要看裡面的內容……"],["柯委員志恩：裡面的內容就是你問過嘛，所有你們去過學術交流的部分，純粹就是在這個學術的裡面來做這個層面嘛。"],["廖院長俊智：我們和這7個學校的交流，我不覺得很多。"],["柯委員志恩：所以呢？你們雖然不歸教育部管，你是歸總統府來管，所以你認為未來在學術交流的部分，你們就儘量往別的地方去，而不跟這10個學校來做更進一步的流動？"],["廖院長俊智：不是，這個怎麼做，是要看我們怎麼樣避免跟人家交流所產生的壞處，這是我們要想的。"],["柯委員志恩：不會有的。不是不會有，就是你們中研院每個人在做學術的部分，我相信都會恪守學術上面的原則。"],["廖院長俊智：對，我們希望能夠這樣子。"],["柯委員志恩：對我個人來說，我們都認為在做交流的部分，純粹就是在做不同的，就是很單純的一個學術，只是因為他們後面有黨政軍的色彩，然後就影響這個部分。我覺得就像你說的，還是看交流內涵的層面，而不是就一個具體的，一個什麼學校裡面就完全否定這樣子過去的一些研究上面的配合跟合作，這是我要強調的，好不好？","接下來我要特別提到有關於核能的部分，因為你現在是我們環境變遷小組當中的其中一員，然後你也不斷的認為核能當然是有優點，也有缺點，然後中研院其實也已經特別提到有關於核安的問題，你特別提到了，在第3+代跟第4代核分裂反應器的安全性上面，你們認為應該是蠻安全的，這個沒有錯吧？"],["廖院長俊智：是否安全，因為我們不是主管機關，我們沒有辦法到現場去查核，我們的意思是說……"],["柯委員志恩：就研究的層面。"],["廖院長俊智：我們是說技術上是可以把它變成很安全，是否我們現在現有的廠址是否安全……"],["柯委員志恩：技術上可以變安全，所以說你有給政府……"],["廖院長俊智：技術是可行，技術是可行……"],["柯委員志恩：對，但是都還沒開始做，因為我後面還再特別去調，有關於你們中研院的一個計畫，你們現在告訴我，你們沒有這樣子的……"],["廖院長俊智：我們沒有這樣的……"],["柯委員志恩：完全沒有這個部分，未來也不討論，未來也不考慮？"],["廖院長俊智：因為我們沒有這樣的人才，所以沒有辦法這樣做。"],["柯委員志恩：對，所以你們沒有辦法在這一塊多做出一些貢獻，但是有關於減碳的目標，我看你們有環境變遷的小組，我剛剛看了一下，很顯然並沒有往這一方面來做。因為過去我問過你，你認為2030年有沒有辦法達到減碳，你認為有點困難，賴總統又特別提出一個2035年要接軌國際的減碳目標，院長，以你目前來看，是不是還是很困難？"],["廖院長俊智：現在國際情勢瞬息萬變，特別是這幾天……"],["柯委員志恩：絕對萬變，股票從川普昨天不到幾個小時當中完全大翻轉，萬變。"],["廖院長俊智：是，所以我想我們要預測未來減碳會多少是非常困難的，但是我們要強調的是，減碳是一個長期目標，全世界……"],["柯委員志恩：絕對是長期目標，但是以你目前來看，你覺得有這樣的機會嗎？到2030年你說沒有可能，到2035年，你要看看美國、巴西，他們都提出了這樣的減碳目標，你看到了巴西在減碳，這是他們的目標，美國甚至認為要再減61%到66%，以你目前的預估，因為你畢竟在這個小組當中，你也某種程度呼應了童子賢董事長的說法，所以你認為到2035來說的話，你覺得機會大不大？"],["廖院長俊智：我想我們不是談2030或是2035，重點不是在短期，我們一再強調，重點是要長期有沒有辦法減碳。因為最新的研究，至少越來越多的研究資料顯示，全世界最糟的狀況不是在2030，不是在2035，也不是2050，是2075到2085、2095……"],["柯委員志恩：好了，院長你講得有點太遠，你講到2075，對不起……"],["廖院長俊智：因為那個時候是真正全人類的最大危機。"],["柯委員志恩：所以我只問你，我只問你，你當初很明確地說2030對臺灣來說是有點困難，即使再延後5年，很顯然這樣的一個目標只是我們的目標，要實際做到還有非常多條件的配合，這點你應該可以同意吧？"],["廖院長俊智：那要看怎麼做，當然假如你不計一切成本的話……"],["柯委員志恩：以目前的作法來看的話，我個人覺得是有點困難，我們光是在討論這些部分，朝野之間其實沒有太大的討論空間，任何的議題只要被卡上一個到底要不要恢復核能？核能到底是如何？我們都已經沒有討論的空間，我覺得這是我們在討論這個事情的時候，我個人認為頗為難過的部分，因為我們沒有太多可以正向合理思考的空間。","最後，我還要用30秒的時間提醒院長一下，因為中研院也有AI推動辦公室，你們也成立了幾個不同的面向，我剛剛看到你的簡報，但是我還是要提醒，很重要的一點就是有關於AI目前為止已經從國科會可能要移到由數發部來主政，但是很多我們認為在AI基本法裡面最需要的就是有關於法律的授權，還有規範基本權的評估，目前為止在這部法裡面是空缺的。我只是期許，因為我們中研院有非常多的，不管是學界、法界、業界，你們都可以跨領域來整合，所以中研院應該負起這樣的責任，可是你剛剛所提出的五個面向當中，很顯然我剛剛提到的這一些很基本的，有關於法律的依據、相關的配套等等，我們目前為止還是沒有看到。所以期許院長，未來在你們推動AI辦公室的過程當中，應該好好地來做一個跨界整合的領頭羊，這樣我們或許才有辦法讓這個基本大法裡面的基本原則可以受到大家的重視。"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝提醒。"],["柯委員志恩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩委員，院長請回。","接下來請劉書彬委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-6","speakers":["林宜瑾","林沛祥","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","張雅琳","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","翁曉玲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00001"}}}