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\"text\": \"那這個是一個危機所以現在除了我們要擋下這個危機之外因為畢竟這個我記得陳玉正委員跟陳學生委員並沒有在這個被公民團體罷免的名單裡但無論如何這個法案是有可能會去被推行的有可能是國民黨想要通過的而這個就會造成危機你在談判的時候結果裡面的人跟你講說我們現在台灣準備要討論這個離島建設條例我們準備要讓離島中國的公司進來不用受到審查中國的人進來不用受到審查\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 208.266, \"end\": 208.566, \"score\": 0.653}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 208.566, \"end\": 208.666, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 208.666, \"end\": 208.847, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"危\", \"start\": 208.847, \"end\": 209.767, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 209.767, \"end\": 209.887, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 209.887, \"end\": 210.108, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 210.108, \"end\": 210.368, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"除\", \"start\": 210.368, \"end\": 210.528, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 210.528, \"end\": 210.608, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 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\"start\": 360.517, \"end\": 360.537, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 361.778, \"end\": 376.312, \"text\": \"所以我現在想要問的事情就是說如果我們今天這九十天之內因為看起來美國非常重視稀產地那現在有這個也不算是後門就算是有個行政的彈性在這邊但這個彈性別人可能就會質疑說你這個重要製程你的認定標準是什麼我們這個標準如果講得夠清楚就能夠去擋下說\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 361.778, \"end\": 361.878, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 361.878, \"end\": 362.058, \"score\": 0.733}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 362.058, \"end\": 362.319, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 362.319, \"end\": 362.459, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 362.459, \"end\": 362.619, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 362.619, \"end\": 362.859, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 362.859, \"end\": 362.979, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 362.979, \"end\": 363.099, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 363.099, \"end\": 363.219, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 363.219, \"end\": 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\"單\"}, {\"word\": \"筆\"}, {\"word\": \"甚\", \"start\": 447.929, \"end\": 448.189, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 448.189, \"end\": 448.349, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 448.349, \"end\": 448.469, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 448.469, \"end\": 448.689, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 448.689, \"end\": 448.85, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 448.85, \"end\": 449.53, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"停\", \"start\": 449.53, \"end\": 449.75, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"止\", \"start\": 449.75, \"end\": 449.95, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 449.95, \"end\": 450.691, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 450.691, \"end\": 450.871, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"口\", \"start\": 450.871, \"end\": 451.011, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 451.011, \"end\": 451.411, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"格\", \"start\": 451.411, \"end\": 451.832, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 451.832, \"end\": 452.212, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 452.212, \"end\": 452.412, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 452.412, \"end\": 452.572, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 452.572, \"end\": 452.752, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 452.752, \"end\": 453.233, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 453.233, \"end\": 453.393, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 453.393, \"end\": 453.673, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 453.673, \"end\": 453.833, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 453.833, \"end\": 454.534, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 454.534, \"end\": 454.774, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 454.774, \"end\": 454.794, \"score\": 0.97}]}, {\"start\": 455.014, \"end\": 474.886, \"text\": \"那我這樣聽起來的話 金流算是一個重要的認定標準金流的異常那除了金流的異常之外 我在想的事情就是因為貨品這邊呢 可能會比較容易那我之前在總質詢的時候 我就有在問這個貿易法第13條那裡面有這個 我講前兩個就好戰略性高科技貨品出口跟這個軍用兩用貨品技術出口管制清單\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 455.014, \"end\": 455.114, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 455.114, \"end\": 455.574, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 455.574, \"end\": 455.794, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 455.794, \"end\": 456.075, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 456.075, \"end\": 456.275, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"流\", \"start\": 456.275, \"end\": 456.715, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 456.715, \"end\": 456.875, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 456.875, \"end\": 456.995, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 456.995, \"end\": 457.255, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 457.255, \"end\": 457.435, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 457.435, \"end\": 457.576, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 457.576, \"end\": 457.816, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 457.816, \"end\": 458.196, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 458.196, \"end\": 458.956, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 458.956, \"end\": 459.116, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"流\", \"start\": 459.116, \"end\": 459.256, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 459.256, \"end\": 459.577, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"異\"}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 459.577, \"end\": 460.197, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 460.197, \"end\": 460.357, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"除\", \"start\": 460.357, \"end\": 460.477, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 460.477, \"end\": 460.617, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 462.618, \"end\": 462.979, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 462.979, \"end\": 463.419, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"貨\"}, {\"word\": \"品\", \"start\": 463.419, \"end\": 463.879, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 463.879, \"end\": 463.999, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 463.999, \"end\": 464.099, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 464.099, \"end\": 464.299, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 464.299, \"end\": 464.52, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 464.52, \"end\": 464.74, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"易\", \"start\": 464.74, \"end\": 465.14, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 465.14, \"end\": 465.24, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 465.24, \"end\": 465.36, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 465.36, \"end\": 465.46, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 465.46, \"end\": 465.6, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 465.6, \"end\": 466.14, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 466.14, \"end\": 466.361, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 466.361, \"end\": 466.381, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 466.381, \"end\": 466.541, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 466.541, \"end\": 466.921, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 466.921, \"end\": 467.081, \"score\": 0.774}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 467.081, \"end\": 467.461, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"貿\"}, {\"word\": \"易\", \"start\": 467.461, \"end\": 467.601, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 467.601, \"end\": 467.761, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 467.761, \"end\": 468.742, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 468.742, \"end\": 468.922, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 468.922, \"end\": 469.062, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 469.062, \"end\": 469.603, \"score\": 0.756}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 469.603, \"end\": 469.883, \"score\": 0.639}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 469.883, \"end\": 470.303, \"score\": 0.692}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 470.303, \"end\": 470.443, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 470.443, \"end\": 470.983, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"戰\"}, {\"word\": \"略\", \"start\": 470.983, \"end\": 471.143, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 471.143, \"end\": 471.324, \"score\": 0.728}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 471.324, \"end\": 471.484, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"科\", \"start\": 471.484, \"end\": 471.624, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"技\", \"start\": 471.624, \"end\": 471.944, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"貨\"}, {\"word\": \"品\", \"start\": 471.944, \"end\": 472.104, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 472.104, \"end\": 472.304, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"口\", \"start\": 472.304, \"end\": 472.464, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 472.464, \"end\": 473.024, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 473.024, \"end\": 473.385, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 473.385, \"end\": 473.745, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"貨\"}, {\"word\": \"品\", \"start\": 473.745, \"end\": 473.905, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"技\", \"start\": 473.905, \"end\": 474.265, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"術\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 474.265, \"end\": 474.425, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"口\", \"start\": 474.425, \"end\": 474.565, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 474.565, \"end\": 474.725, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 474.725, \"end\": 474.866, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 474.866, \"end\": 474.886, \"score\": 0.007}, {\"word\": \"單\"}]}, {\"start\": 475.766, \"end\": 504.495, \"text\": \"那因為我記得好像是昨天還前天剛好在國科會他們有一個相關的討論然後有一個美國商務部的這個官員是他已經做了三十幾年三十年了他已經退休了他有來台灣做一個內部的這個演講但是在國科會那裡那他就有講到一件事情就是說他認為貨品相關的就像剛剛這個次長講的可以有一些標準出來那有標準出來的話你根據什麼標準這樣你可以去對外說你看我們這邊並沒有息產地的問題但他說有一個部分他一直覺得很困擾就是技術\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 475.766, \"end\": 475.866, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 475.866, \"end\": 476.006, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 476.006, \"end\": 476.206, \"score\": 0.69}, {\"word\": \"記\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 476.206, \"end\": 476.286, \"score\": 0.731}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 476.286, \"end\": 476.386, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 476.386, \"end\": 476.446, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 476.446, \"end\": 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00:00:41,614\n你好那這個關稅的問題其實這幾天我覺得炒作是真的非常的多那我個人是感受到非常的痛心為什麼呢就是因為這幾天關稅說真的它本來就是一個長期的談判但是我們可以看到在我們這一邊即使是在立法院不斷的有人用這樣的一個方式去炒作這樣的一個政治議題甚至可以看到有人說什麼這個在野省下當時多少的預算就是為了當救命的基金\n\n3\n00:00:42,395 --> 00:00:57,175\n叫台積電連電要來這邊報告啦等等之類的我覺得這種政治操作其實說真的讓我們這些正常的討論沒有辦法持續下去這一點是讓我覺得非常的難過那更不要講說在外面很多政治人物就一直在講說我們要跟中國市場融合\n\n4\n00:00:58,076 --> 00:01:17,219\n我記得國民黨的總召都還在講說這一個是不是要中國的遊客趙少康其實也有講一樣的話我現在比較擔心的事情就是說我們現在是要出去談判的人我們也是雖然現在也有90天我們要出去談的時候對於我們這個國內的聲音其實不是很一致\n\n5\n00:01:18,139 --> 00:01:45,100\n雖然現在執政黨像剛剛這個前面都有提到不管是這個全美的21倡議啦還有剛剛定宇我們有提到的就是說目前我們總統的這個談話啦投書啦這些事情我們本來是穩定的但現在有一群人等於是在扯後腿啦這一群人呢等於一直在講說我們跟中國站在一起到底有什麼問題啊這一件事情呢會形成我們很大的一個loss因為不管怎麼講今天有兩件事情第一個是順差的問題必須要被解決\n\n6\n00:01:45,880 --> 00:02:13,476\n所以呢我看到總統的投書有特別提到到底要做什麼樣的採購但第二個問題最重要的就還是經濟安全那經濟安全這件事情呢目前來講看起來就是選錯的人關稅一二五那如果說我們今天決定假設有國內有一直很大的一個聲音告訴我們說要跟中國站在一起這會是我們非常大的危機因為這就等於你沒有去加入這一個非紅的供應鏈等於你不重視經濟的安全\n\n7\n00:02:14,136 --> 00:02:39,005\n所以我從這一個我去年就已經問過部長經濟部部長那我在總質詢也有再問過一次那一次問的主要是跟淘寶有關還有跟算能科技有關的這個洗產地的問題那這邊呢我想問的就是這一個不過在這個之前我還要再講一下就是我覺得這是一個核心問題我覺得一定要去注意就是這個去年這一個呢也是陳韻甄委員跟陳學生委員他們呢提了這個離島建設條例裡面的第六項\n\n8\n00:02:42,577 --> 00:03:00,927\n他有提到說這一個呢中國的這一個呢人民法人團體機構資金物品商務勞務或服務進出離島自由貿易示範區有沒有然後呢他的許可條件與程序呢等於呢由會商各離島縣政府自己來擬定這就是一個息產地的一個規定\n\n9\n00:03:02,068 --> 00:03:27,325\n等於是說我們現在要防止習產地我等一下要持續的重點就是要怎麼去防止但現在是有人不斷在開後門用這樣的一個方式我們先不要講人員的管理人員的管理光是我的附中草案就已經被擋了44次然後還有我們的關鍵技術我在我的兩岸條例的修正裡面我們關鍵技術還有關鍵的基礎人員要怎麼去做管制這個都已經被擋這個就算了離島建設條例是直接開後門\n\n10\n00:03:28,266 --> 00:03:50,824\n那這個是一個危機所以現在除了我們要擋下這個危機之外因為畢竟這個我記得陳玉正委員跟陳學生委員並沒有在這個被公民團體罷免的名單裡但無論如何這個法案是有可能會去被推行的有可能是國民黨想要通過的而這個就會造成危機你在談判的時候結果裡面的人跟你講說我們現在台灣準備要討論這個離島建設條例我們準備要讓離島中國的公司進來不用受到審查中國的人進來不用受到審查\n\n11\n00:03:57,910 --> 00:04:20,888\n那這樣的話要怎麼去做對外的談判所以呢這個剛剛我看前面馬文君委員其實也有提到說什麼這個我們現在到底這個南向到哪裡去啦或什麼之類的我覺得有時候我們在討論這件事情的時候真的必須要具備一般的知識我們台灣現在呢可以看到這個紅線的部分是我們對中國的投資是不斷地在下降我們對其他國家的投資是不斷地在上升從20\n\n12\n00:04:23,831 --> 00:04:46,193\n18、19年開始我們對於東協也開始往上升我們對於美加末開始往上升對於中國跟香港開始下降這跟現在有沒有關稅根本就沒有關係這是這89年以來我們政府最重要的一個大政策而這個政策一直都在推行當中所以台積電今天去赴美投資也就是只不過是這樣的一環但這三天我看到很大量的政治操作我看到經濟部是有挺住啦\n\n13\n00:04:46,573 --> 00:05:01,495\n但這個政策操作就是在講說台積電都已經去美國了為什麼沒有換到什麼東西等等之類的沒有這是這八九年以來我們政府一貫的政策就是我們必須要去風險化我們不能夠跟中國綁在一起跟中國綁在一起就是會出問題\n\n14\n00:05:02,637 --> 00:05:19,315\n那現在的這些漏洞呢除了我們要擋下這個藍白現在可能想要去主推這些有的沒的法案之外我認為有一個關鍵就是我們現行的規定的習產地有沒有辦法擋下來所以我看一下像這個是這個原產地證明書及加工證明書的管理辦法\n\n15\n00:05:21,016 --> 00:05:43,780\n這個我看署長這個副署長或者次長都可以看一下在這個第二款因為他說貨品加工或製造這邊我們先不講技術先講最終貨品它的附加價值超過35%或特定貨品已符合貿易署公告的重要製程前面這個附加價值率是有公式的所以既然有公式的話你就一翻兩瞪眼企業也好遵循你今天去跟美國談判的時候也可以講說我們根據這個來認定什麼叫做MIT\n\n16\n00:05:46,881 --> 00:06:00,537\n所以其產地的問題怎麼去擋下但後面有這個叫做特定貨品已符合貿易署公告那這個就變成有一個空間變成說他可以去認定那當然這個有空間有彈性本來在行政機關不是壞事\n\n17\n00:06:01,778 --> 00:06:16,312\n所以我現在想要問的事情就是說如果我們今天這九十天之內因為看起來美國非常重視稀產地那現在有這個也不算是後門就算是有個行政的彈性在這邊但這個彈性別人可能就會質疑說你這個重要製程你的認定標準是什麼我們這個標準如果講得夠清楚就能夠去擋下說\n\n18\n00:06:23,058 --> 00:06:42,440\n那這個洗產地的疑慮很明顯台灣是沒有的所以不知道看是次長還是副處長針對這一點就是這一個我們現在有沒有什麼好的標準慢慢在進行當中如果說這個是需要機密會議再討論或者說對外談判先不要講出來的話我們可以另外再安排沒有關係但是就可以跟國人公開的回答就可以\n\n19\n00:06:42,500 --> 00:07:07,334\n是謝謝委員的指教委員非常關心未來有沒有洗產地的問題實際上呢我們從今年的二月份就已經開始在實施相關的規定我們有做對自中國進口的這個產品做監測首先看它的這個金額進口的金額還有進口的量是不是有異常同時呢我們也是跟相同的產品去跟蘇美\n\n20\n00:07:08,715 --> 00:07:34,794\n的這個部分的去做勾結任何有問題的話我們就會去了解這個實際的狀況那如果未來廠商有違反息產地的這些相關的規定的話根據貿易法我們可以給處罰最高可以罰到300萬單筆甚至呢我們可以停止他這個進出口的資格所以這個機制呢其實現在已經是在進行了\n\n21\n00:07:35,014 --> 00:07:54,886\n那我這樣聽起來的話金流算是一個重要的認定標準金流的異常那除了金流的異常之外我在想的事情就是因為貨品這邊呢可能會比較容易那我之前在總質詢的時候我就有在問這個貿易法第13條那裡面有這個我講前兩個就好戰略性高科技貨品出口跟這個軍用兩用貨品技術出口管制清單\n\n22\n00:07:55,766 --> 00:08:24,495\n那因為我記得好像是昨天還前天剛好在國科會他們有一個相關的討論然後有一個美國商務部的這個官員是他已經做了三十幾年三十年了他已經退休了他有來台灣做一個內部的這個演講但是在國科會那裡那他就有講到一件事情就是說他認為貨品相關的就像剛剛這個次長講的可以有一些標準出來那有標準出來的話你根據什麼標準這樣你可以去對外說你看我們這邊並沒有息產地的問題但他說有一個部分他一直覺得很困擾就是技術\n\n23\n00:08:26,216 --> 00:08:43,318\n比如說晶片因為他說技術現在進展得太快了所以他說以前美國商務部就是說他們一直在思考一件事情就是他們內部有專業團隊而這個專業團隊不是指經貿專業團隊指的是那個技術就是他對半導體特別了解所以他可以看得出來有沒有問題\n\n24\n00:08:44,119 --> 00:09:07,806\n所以像之前輝達其實像美國現在技術它已經有一個很高度的管制那輝達為了要不符合那一個所謂的高標準它還要降低它的那一個晶片然後再出口到這個中國去所以台灣現在在這個部分就是說我們對於這樣的一個團隊其實沒有說要求一定要在經濟部裡面但是不管是在國安的團隊裡面還是在國科會裡面這個方向現在是否有\n\n25\n00:09:08,487 --> 00:09:36,637\n是有關於技術的部分我們已經公布了兩波的國家核心關鍵技術現在總計有32項那這個部分呢包括了相關的行政部門我們都有跨部會的一個機制在討論那貿易署的經濟部的部分因為最主要是貨品的出口管制所以在科技的部分我們跟國科會還有其他的單位都有固定的在做討論如何防範台灣的高科技外流\n\n26\n00:09:37,517 --> 00:10:04,884\n那這邊我覺得還有兩個細項就是說我們在跟國科會有一定的討論那國科會這邊在內部我看到他們裡面內部這些政府相關的這些他的智庫他有提出一些建議這些建議裡面包含我剛剛講的除了這個技術它的更新要更快之外因為我覺得速度真的很重要就像我去年在質詢的時候那時候就發現華為其實還沒有到我們的清單上所以我就說這個速度太慢了那技術的速度一定要比這個還要再更快這是第一點\n\n27\n00:10:05,584 --> 00:10:31,600\n第二點就是人流啦就是說我們剛剛有提到金流的異常現在有提到技術要怎麼外流但人會帶著技術走嘛所以人要怎麼做就是說今天在什麼樣背景的人要怎麼去做背景的審查之外什麼樣的行為我看到美國現在的做法就是什麼樣的行為你就已經預設你就有可能是在export就deemedexport就是預設你可能會把技術帶出去然後做相關的管制那這個部分我是有先針對這幾個條文\n\n28\n00:10:33,781 --> 00:10:52,660\n還有國安法相關的條文要做出一些修正但這個可能也要等到國科會提出一些願板那我在總質詢的時候其實有提到說這個願板要趕快出來那現在畢竟你看說我們現在是90天嘛這90天之內如果我們能夠更把這些跟經濟安全有關的法案願板出來迅速討論通過的話我覺得這個對我們談判的空間一定會有幫助啦\n\n29\n00:10:55,663 --> 00:11:02,117\n是的好那這個這個我可能就已經沒時間問了而且但是我最後一個問題問一下這個民企司長不好意思\n\n30\n00:11:11,518 --> 00:11:31,192\n因為最近我們有看到美國在做一些相關的民調,就是圓屋這件事情,還有對於北約的態度。那民主黨跟共和黨還是會有一些分歧。因為以前我們在外交上面就一直提到說要怎麼去做這些溝通交流。我覺得我們外交部對於智庫的部分真的是越做越好,組織的部分也是。\n\n31\n00:11:31,952 --> 00:11:46,797\n那公眾的部分呢喬爾會雖然有幫忙但我覺得主力應該在外交部那現在等於說我覺得現在世界各國民眾對於一些特定議題的想法會跟著政黨走在台灣也是這個樣子那目前我們現在對於這一個不同黨派的這個溝通策略分頭併進的狀況如何\n\n32\n00:11:48,581 --> 00:12:08,511\n我們當然是說對於這個像我們重要的友邦當然是說他們所有的這個不同的這個黨派我們都會有所接觸那麼我們尤其是說當然我們不可避免還是跟執政的這個團隊有更多的這個互動但是我們也沒有說這個在野的就不溝通\n\n33\n00:12:09,711 --> 00:12:31,170\n但是現在外交部的一個跟溝通,跟民眾的,像剛剛委員所提到的,我們的形象的形塑,遇到一個很大的問題,就是櫃院凍傷我們的相關預算。有一個海外的傷到腹的。等於是完全沒有的時候,其實在外管上面進行相關的工作非常的困難。\n\n34\n00:12:31,750 --> 00:12:59,410\n那尤其是在一些地方其實在我們的外交擴展上面可能是有一些這個比較自愛難行的地方所以我們希望能夠加強跟民眾的溝通但是這個事情因為大院把這個刪減掉後我們真的進行上面非常非常的這個也是我現在比較擔心的一件事因為我從去年質詢的時候就一直在講除了組織之外人民的溝通很重要因為人民他態度一旦轉變政治人物必須要跟著做所以我們對人民的溝通其實很需要這些媒宣相關的費用然後\n\n35\n00:13:00,331 --> 00:13:03,634\n這個我們在努力看能不能立法院有些變化不好意思主席佔用時間謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n609\t2531\t謝謝主席有請經濟部次長還有副署長謝謝委員好\n12231\t41614\t你好那這個關稅的問題其實這幾天我覺得炒作是真的非常的多那我個人是感受到非常的痛心為什麼呢就是因為這幾天關稅說真的它本來就是一個長期的談判但是我們可以看到在我們這一邊即使是在立法院不斷的有人用這樣的一個方式去炒作這樣的一個政治議題甚至可以看到有人說什麼這個在野省下當時多少的預算就是為了當救命的基金\n42395\t57175\t叫台積電連電要來這邊報告啦等等之類的我覺得這種政治操作其實說真的讓我們這些正常的討論沒有辦法持續下去這一點是讓我覺得非常的難過那更不要講說在外面很多政治人物就一直在講說我們要跟中國市場融合\n58076\t77219\t我記得國民黨的總召都還在講說這一個是不是要中國的遊客趙少康其實也有講一樣的話我現在比較擔心的事情就是說我們現在是要出去談判的人我們也是雖然現在也有90天我們要出去談的時候對於我們這個國內的聲音其實不是很一致\n78139\t105100\t雖然現在執政黨像剛剛這個前面都有提到不管是這個全美的21倡議啦還有剛剛定宇我們有提到的就是說目前我們總統的這個談話啦投書啦這些事情我們本來是穩定的但現在有一群人等於是在扯後腿啦這一群人呢等於一直在講說我們跟中國站在一起到底有什麼問題啊這一件事情呢會形成我們很大的一個loss因為不管怎麼講今天有兩件事情第一個是順差的問題必須要被解決\n105880\t133476\t所以呢我看到總統的投書有特別提到到底要做什麼樣的採購但第二個問題最重要的就還是經濟安全那經濟安全這件事情呢目前來講看起來就是選錯的人關稅一二五那如果說我們今天決定假設有國內有一直很大的一個聲音告訴我們說要跟中國站在一起這會是我們非常大的危機因為這就等於你沒有去加入這一個非紅的供應鏈等於你不重視經濟的安全\n134136\t159005\t所以我從這一個我去年就已經問過部長經濟部部長那我在總質詢也有再問過一次那一次問的主要是跟淘寶有關還有跟算能科技有關的這個洗產地的問題那這邊呢我想問的就是這一個不過在這個之前我還要再講一下就是我覺得這是一個核心問題我覺得一定要去注意就是這個去年這一個呢也是陳韻甄委員跟陳學生委員他們呢提了這個離島建設條例裡面的第六項\n162577\t180927\t他有提到說這一個呢中國的這一個呢人民法人團體機構資金物品商務勞務或服務進出離島自由貿易示範區有沒有然後呢他的許可條件與程序呢等於呢由會商各離島縣政府自己來擬定這就是一個息產地的一個規定\n182068\t207325\t等於是說我們現在要防止習產地我等一下要持續的重點就是要怎麼去防止但現在是有人不斷在開後門用這樣的一個方式我們先不要講人員的管理人員的管理光是我的附中草案就已經被擋了44次然後還有我們的關鍵技術我在我的兩岸條例的修正裡面我們關鍵技術還有關鍵的基礎人員要怎麼去做管制這個都已經被擋這個就算了離島建設條例是直接開後門\n208266\t230824\t那這個是一個危機所以現在除了我們要擋下這個危機之外因為畢竟這個我記得陳玉正委員跟陳學生委員並沒有在這個被公民團體罷免的名單裡但無論如何這個法案是有可能會去被推行的有可能是國民黨想要通過的而這個就會造成危機你在談判的時候結果裡面的人跟你講說我們現在台灣準備要討論這個離島建設條例我們準備要讓離島中國的公司進來不用受到審查中國的人進來不用受到審查\n237910\t260888\t那這樣的話要怎麼去做對外的談判所以呢這個剛剛我看前面馬文君委員其實也有提到說什麼這個我們現在到底這個南向到哪裡去啦或什麼之類的我覺得有時候我們在討論這件事情的時候真的必須要具備一般的知識我們台灣現在呢可以看到這個紅線的部分是我們對中國的投資是不斷地在下降我們對其他國家的投資是不斷地在上升從20\n263831\t286193\t18、19年開始我們對於東協也開始往上升我們對於美加末開始往上升對於中國跟香港開始下降這跟現在有沒有關稅根本就沒有關係這是這89年以來我們政府最重要的一個大政策而這個政策一直都在推行當中所以台積電今天去赴美投資也就是只不過是這樣的一環但這三天我看到很大量的政治操作我看到經濟部是有挺住啦\n286573\t301495\t但這個政策操作就是在講說台積電都已經去美國了為什麼沒有換到什麼東西等等之類的沒有這是這八九年以來我們政府一貫的政策就是我們必須要去風險化我們不能夠跟中國綁在一起跟中國綁在一起就是會出問題\n302637\t319315\t那現在的這些漏洞呢除了我們要擋下這個藍白現在可能想要去主推這些有的沒的法案之外我認為有一個關鍵就是我們現行的規定的習產地有沒有辦法擋下來所以我看一下像這個是這個原產地證明書及加工證明書的管理辦法\n321016\t343780\t這個我看署長這個副署長或者次長都可以看一下在這個第二款因為他說貨品加工或製造這邊我們先不講技術先講最終貨品它的附加價值超過35%或特定貨品已符合貿易署公告的重要製程前面這個附加價值率是有公式的所以既然有公式的話你就一翻兩瞪眼企業也好遵循你今天去跟美國談判的時候也可以講說我們根據這個來認定什麼叫做MIT\n346881\t360537\t所以其產地的問題怎麼去擋下但後面有這個叫做特定貨品已符合貿易署公告那這個就變成有一個空間變成說他可以去認定那當然這個有空間有彈性本來在行政機關不是壞事\n361778\t376312\t所以我現在想要問的事情就是說如果我們今天這九十天之內因為看起來美國非常重視稀產地那現在有這個也不算是後門就算是有個行政的彈性在這邊但這個彈性別人可能就會質疑說你這個重要製程你的認定標準是什麼我們這個標準如果講得夠清楚就能夠去擋下說\n383058\t402440\t那這個洗產地的疑慮很明顯台灣是沒有的所以不知道看是次長還是副處長針對這一點就是這一個我們現在有沒有什麼好的標準慢慢在進行當中如果說這個是需要機密會議再討論或者說對外談判先不要講出來的話我們可以另外再安排沒有關係但是就可以跟國人公開的回答就可以\n402500\t427334\t是謝謝委員的指教委員非常關心未來有沒有洗產地的問題實際上呢我們從今年的二月份就已經開始在實施相關的規定我們有做對自中國進口的這個產品做監測首先看它的這個金額進口的金額還有進口的量是不是有異常同時呢我們也是跟相同的產品去跟蘇美\n428715\t454794\t的這個部分的去做勾結任何有問題的話我們就會去了解這個實際的狀況那如果未來廠商有違反息產地的這些相關的規定的話根據貿易法我們可以給處罰最高可以罰到300萬單筆甚至呢我們可以停止他這個進出口的資格所以這個機制呢其實現在已經是在進行了\n455014\t474886\t那我這樣聽起來的話 金流算是一個重要的認定標準金流的異常那除了金流的異常之外 我在想的事情就是因為貨品這邊呢 可能會比較容易那我之前在總質詢的時候 我就有在問這個貿易法第13條那裡面有這個 我講前兩個就好戰略性高科技貨品出口跟這個軍用兩用貨品技術出口管制清單\n475766\t504495\t那因為我記得好像是昨天還前天剛好在國科會他們有一個相關的討論然後有一個美國商務部的這個官員是他已經做了三十幾年三十年了他已經退休了他有來台灣做一個內部的這個演講但是在國科會那裡那他就有講到一件事情就是說他認為貨品相關的就像剛剛這個次長講的可以有一些標準出來那有標準出來的話你根據什麼標準這樣你可以去對外說你看我們這邊並沒有息產地的問題但他說有一個部分他一直覺得很困擾就是技術\n506216\t523318\t比如說晶片因為他說技術現在進展得太快了所以他說以前美國商務部就是說他們一直在思考一件事情就是他們內部有專業團隊而這個專業團隊不是指經貿專業團隊指的是那個技術就是他對半導體特別了解所以他可以看得出來有沒有問題\n524119\t547806\t所以像之前輝達其實像美國現在技術它已經有一個很高度的管制那輝達為了要不符合那一個所謂的高標準它還要降低它的那一個晶片然後再出口到這個中國去所以台灣現在在這個部分就是說我們對於這樣的一個團隊其實沒有說要求一定要在經濟部裡面但是不管是在國安的團隊裡面還是在國科會裡面這個方向現在是否有\n548487\t576637\t是有關於技術的部分我們已經公布了兩波的國家核心關鍵技術現在總計有32項那這個部分呢包括了相關的行政部門我們都有跨部會的一個機制在討論那貿易署的經濟部的部分因為最主要是貨品的出口管制所以在科技的部分我們跟國科會還有其他的單位都有固定的在做討論如何防範台灣的高科技外流\n577517\t604884\t那這邊我覺得還有兩個細項就是說我們在跟國科會有一定的討論那國科會這邊在內部我看到他們裡面內部這些政府相關的這些他的智庫他有提出一些建議這些建議裡面包含我剛剛講的除了這個技術它的更新要更快之外因為我覺得速度真的很重要就像我去年在質詢的時候那時候就發現華為其實還沒有到我們的清單上所以我就說這個速度太慢了那技術的速度一定要比這個還要再更快這是第一點\n605584\t631600\t第二點就是人流啦就是說我們剛剛有提到金流的異常現在有提到技術要怎麼外流但人會帶著技術走嘛所以人要怎麼做就是說今天在什麼樣背景的人要怎麼去做背景的審查之外什麼樣的行為我看到美國現在的做法就是什麼樣的行為你就已經預設你就有可能是在export就deemed export就是預設你可能會把技術帶出去然後做相關的管制那這個部分我是有先針對這幾個條文\n633781\t652660\t還有國安法相關的條文要做出一些修正但這個可能也要等到國科會提出一些願板那我在總質詢的時候其實有提到說這個願板要趕快出來那現在畢竟你看說我們現在是90天嘛這90天之內如果我們能夠更把這些跟經濟安全有關的法案願板出來迅速討論通過的話我覺得這個對我們談判的空間一定會有幫助啦\n655663\t662117\t是的好那這個這個我可能就已經沒時間問了而且但是我最後一個問題問一下這個民企司長不好意思\n671518\t691192\t因為最近我們有看到美國在做一些相關的民調,就是圓屋這件事情,還有對於北約的態度。那民主黨跟共和黨還是會有一些分歧。因為以前我們在外交上面就一直提到說要怎麼去做這些溝通交流。我覺得我們外交部對於智庫的部分真的是越做越好,組織的部分也是。\n691952\t706797\t那公眾的部分呢喬爾會雖然有幫忙但我覺得主力應該在外交部那現在等於說我覺得現在世界各國民眾對於一些特定議題的想法會跟著政黨走在台灣也是這個樣子那目前我們現在對於這一個不同黨派的這個溝通策略分頭併進的狀況如何\n708581\t728511\t我們當然是說對於這個像我們重要的友邦當然是說他們所有的這個不同的這個黨派我們都會有所接觸那麼我們尤其是說當然我們不可避免還是跟執政的這個團隊有更多的這個互動但是我們也沒有說這個在野的就不溝通\n729711\t751170\t但是現在外交部的一個跟溝通,跟民眾的,像剛剛委員所提到的,我們的形象的形塑,遇到一個很大的問題,就是櫃院凍傷我們的相關預算。有一個海外的傷到腹的。等於是完全沒有的時候,其實在外管上面進行相關的工作非常的困難。\n751750\t779410\t那尤其是在一些地方其實在我們的外交擴展上面可能是有一些這個比較自愛難行的地方所以我們希望能夠加強跟民眾的溝通但是這個事情因為大院把這個刪減掉後我們真的進行上面非常非常的這個也是我現在比較擔心的一件事因為我從去年質詢的時候就一直在講除了組織之外人民的溝通很重要因為人民他態度一旦轉變政治人物必須要跟著做所以我們對人民的溝通其實很需要這些媒宣相關的費用然後\n780331\t783634\t這個我們在努力看能不能立法院有些變化不好意思主席佔用時間謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請經濟部次長還有副署長謝謝委員好\n你好那這個關稅的問題其實這幾天我覺得炒作是真的非常的多那我個人是感受到非常的痛心為什麼呢就是因為這幾天關稅說真的它本來就是一個長期的談判但是我們可以看到在我們這一邊即使是在立法院不斷的有人用這樣的一個方式去炒作這樣的一個政治議題甚至可以看到有人說什麼這個在野省下當時多少的預算就是為了當救命的基金\n叫台積電連電要來這邊報告啦等等之類的我覺得這種政治操作其實說真的讓我們這些正常的討論沒有辦法持續下去這一點是讓我覺得非常的難過那更不要講說在外面很多政治人物就一直在講說我們要跟中國市場融合\n我記得國民黨的總召都還在講說這一個是不是要中國的遊客趙少康其實也有講一樣的話我現在比較擔心的事情就是說我們現在是要出去談判的人我們也是雖然現在也有90天我們要出去談的時候對於我們這個國內的聲音其實不是很一致\n雖然現在執政黨像剛剛這個前面都有提到不管是這個全美的21倡議啦還有剛剛定宇我們有提到的就是說目前我們總統的這個談話啦投書啦這些事情我們本來是穩定的但現在有一群人等於是在扯後腿啦這一群人呢等於一直在講說我們跟中國站在一起到底有什麼問題啊這一件事情呢會形成我們很大的一個loss因為不管怎麼講今天有兩件事情第一個是順差的問題必須要被解決\n所以呢我看到總統的投書有特別提到到底要做什麼樣的採購但第二個問題最重要的就還是經濟安全那經濟安全這件事情呢目前來講看起來就是選錯的人關稅一二五那如果說我們今天決定假設有國內有一直很大的一個聲音告訴我們說要跟中國站在一起這會是我們非常大的危機因為這就等於你沒有去加入這一個非紅的供應鏈等於你不重視經濟的安全\n所以我從這一個我去年就已經問過部長經濟部部長那我在總質詢也有再問過一次那一次問的主要是跟淘寶有關還有跟算能科技有關的這個洗產地的問題那這邊呢我想問的就是這一個不過在這個之前我還要再講一下就是我覺得這是一個核心問題我覺得一定要去注意就是這個去年這一個呢也是陳韻甄委員跟陳學生委員他們呢提了這個離島建設條例裡面的第六項\n他有提到說這一個呢中國的這一個呢人民法人團體機構資金物品商務勞務或服務進出離島自由貿易示範區有沒有然後呢他的許可條件與程序呢等於呢由會商各離島縣政府自己來擬定這就是一個息產地的一個規定\n等於是說我們現在要防止習產地我等一下要持續的重點就是要怎麼去防止但現在是有人不斷在開後門用這樣的一個方式我們先不要講人員的管理人員的管理光是我的附中草案就已經被擋了44次然後還有我們的關鍵技術我在我的兩岸條例的修正裡面我們關鍵技術還有關鍵的基礎人員要怎麼去做管制這個都已經被擋這個就算了離島建設條例是直接開後門\n那這個是一個危機所以現在除了我們要擋下這個危機之外因為畢竟這個我記得陳玉正委員跟陳學生委員並沒有在這個被公民團體罷免的名單裡但無論如何這個法案是有可能會去被推行的有可能是國民黨想要通過的而這個就會造成危機你在談判的時候結果裡面的人跟你講說我們現在台灣準備要討論這個離島建設條例我們準備要讓離島中國的公司進來不用受到審查中國的人進來不用受到審查\n那這樣的話要怎麼去做對外的談判所以呢這個剛剛我看前面馬文君委員其實也有提到說什麼這個我們現在到底這個南向到哪裡去啦或什麼之類的我覺得有時候我們在討論這件事情的時候真的必須要具備一般的知識我們台灣現在呢可以看到這個紅線的部分是我們對中國的投資是不斷地在下降我們對其他國家的投資是不斷地在上升從20\n18、19年開始我們對於東協也開始往上升我們對於美加末開始往上升對於中國跟香港開始下降這跟現在有沒有關稅根本就沒有關係這是這89年以來我們政府最重要的一個大政策而這個政策一直都在推行當中所以台積電今天去赴美投資也就是只不過是這樣的一環但這三天我看到很大量的政治操作我看到經濟部是有挺住啦\n但這個政策操作就是在講說台積電都已經去美國了為什麼沒有換到什麼東西等等之類的沒有這是這八九年以來我們政府一貫的政策就是我們必須要去風險化我們不能夠跟中國綁在一起跟中國綁在一起就是會出問題\n那現在的這些漏洞呢除了我們要擋下這個藍白現在可能想要去主推這些有的沒的法案之外我認為有一個關鍵就是我們現行的規定的習產地有沒有辦法擋下來所以我看一下像這個是這個原產地證明書及加工證明書的管理辦法\n這個我看署長這個副署長或者次長都可以看一下在這個第二款因為他說貨品加工或製造這邊我們先不講技術先講最終貨品它的附加價值超過35%或特定貨品已符合貿易署公告的重要製程前面這個附加價值率是有公式的所以既然有公式的話你就一翻兩瞪眼企業也好遵循你今天去跟美國談判的時候也可以講說我們根據這個來認定什麼叫做MIT\n所以其產地的問題怎麼去擋下但後面有這個叫做特定貨品已符合貿易署公告那這個就變成有一個空間變成說他可以去認定那當然這個有空間有彈性本來在行政機關不是壞事\n所以我現在想要問的事情就是說如果我們今天這九十天之內因為看起來美國非常重視稀產地那現在有這個也不算是後門就算是有個行政的彈性在這邊但這個彈性別人可能就會質疑說你這個重要製程你的認定標準是什麼我們這個標準如果講得夠清楚就能夠去擋下說\n那這個洗產地的疑慮很明顯台灣是沒有的所以不知道看是次長還是副處長針對這一點就是這一個我們現在有沒有什麼好的標準慢慢在進行當中如果說這個是需要機密會議再討論或者說對外談判先不要講出來的話我們可以另外再安排沒有關係但是就可以跟國人公開的回答就可以\n是謝謝委員的指教委員非常關心未來有沒有洗產地的問題實際上呢我們從今年的二月份就已經開始在實施相關的規定我們有做對自中國進口的這個產品做監測首先看它的這個金額進口的金額還有進口的量是不是有異常同時呢我們也是跟相同的產品去跟蘇美\n的這個部分的去做勾結任何有問題的話我們就會去了解這個實際的狀況那如果未來廠商有違反息產地的這些相關的規定的話根據貿易法我們可以給處罰最高可以罰到300萬單筆甚至呢我們可以停止他這個進出口的資格所以這個機制呢其實現在已經是在進行了\n那我這樣聽起來的話 金流算是一個重要的認定標準金流的異常那除了金流的異常之外 我在想的事情就是因為貨品這邊呢 可能會比較容易那我之前在總質詢的時候 我就有在問這個貿易法第13條那裡面有這個 我講前兩個就好戰略性高科技貨品出口跟這個軍用兩用貨品技術出口管制清單\n那因為我記得好像是昨天還前天剛好在國科會他們有一個相關的討論然後有一個美國商務部的這個官員是他已經做了三十幾年三十年了他已經退休了他有來台灣做一個內部的這個演講但是在國科會那裡那他就有講到一件事情就是說他認為貨品相關的就像剛剛這個次長講的可以有一些標準出來那有標準出來的話你根據什麼標準這樣你可以去對外說你看我們這邊並沒有息產地的問題但他說有一個部分他一直覺得很困擾就是技術\n比如說晶片因為他說技術現在進展得太快了所以他說以前美國商務部就是說他們一直在思考一件事情就是他們內部有專業團隊而這個專業團隊不是指經貿專業團隊指的是那個技術就是他對半導體特別了解所以他可以看得出來有沒有問題\n所以像之前輝達其實像美國現在技術它已經有一個很高度的管制那輝達為了要不符合那一個所謂的高標準它還要降低它的那一個晶片然後再出口到這個中國去所以台灣現在在這個部分就是說我們對於這樣的一個團隊其實沒有說要求一定要在經濟部裡面但是不管是在國安的團隊裡面還是在國科會裡面這個方向現在是否有\n是有關於技術的部分我們已經公布了兩波的國家核心關鍵技術現在總計有32項那這個部分呢包括了相關的行政部門我們都有跨部會的一個機制在討論那貿易署的經濟部的部分因為最主要是貨品的出口管制所以在科技的部分我們跟國科會還有其他的單位都有固定的在做討論如何防範台灣的高科技外流\n那這邊我覺得還有兩個細項就是說我們在跟國科會有一定的討論那國科會這邊在內部我看到他們裡面內部這些政府相關的這些他的智庫他有提出一些建議這些建議裡面包含我剛剛講的除了這個技術它的更新要更快之外因為我覺得速度真的很重要就像我去年在質詢的時候那時候就發現華為其實還沒有到我們的清單上所以我就說這個速度太慢了那技術的速度一定要比這個還要再更快這是第一點\n第二點就是人流啦就是說我們剛剛有提到金流的異常現在有提到技術要怎麼外流但人會帶著技術走嘛所以人要怎麼做就是說今天在什麼樣背景的人要怎麼去做背景的審查之外什麼樣的行為我看到美國現在的做法就是什麼樣的行為你就已經預設你就有可能是在export就deemed export就是預設你可能會把技術帶出去然後做相關的管制那這個部分我是有先針對這幾個條文\n還有國安法相關的條文要做出一些修正但這個可能也要等到國科會提出一些願板那我在總質詢的時候其實有提到說這個願板要趕快出來那現在畢竟你看說我們現在是90天嘛這90天之內如果我們能夠更把這些跟經濟安全有關的法案願板出來迅速討論通過的話我覺得這個對我們談判的空間一定會有幫助啦\n是的好那這個這個我可能就已經沒時間問了而且但是我最後一個問題問一下這個民企司長不好意思\n因為最近我們有看到美國在做一些相關的民調,就是圓屋這件事情,還有對於北約的態度。那民主黨跟共和黨還是會有一些分歧。因為以前我們在外交上面就一直提到說要怎麼去做這些溝通交流。我覺得我們外交部對於智庫的部分真的是越做越好,組織的部分也是。\n那公眾的部分呢喬爾會雖然有幫忙但我覺得主力應該在外交部那現在等於說我覺得現在世界各國民眾對於一些特定議題的想法會跟著政黨走在台灣也是這個樣子那目前我們現在對於這一個不同黨派的這個溝通策略分頭併進的狀況如何\n我們當然是說對於這個像我們重要的友邦當然是說他們所有的這個不同的這個黨派我們都會有所接觸那麼我們尤其是說當然我們不可避免還是跟執政的這個團隊有更多的這個互動但是我們也沒有說這個在野的就不溝通\n但是現在外交部的一個跟溝通,跟民眾的,像剛剛委員所提到的,我們的形象的形塑,遇到一個很大的問題,就是櫃院凍傷我們的相關預算。有一個海外的傷到腹的。等於是完全沒有的時候,其實在外管上面進行相關的工作非常的困難。\n那尤其是在一些地方其實在我們的外交擴展上面可能是有一些這個比較自愛難行的地方所以我們希望能夠加強跟民眾的溝通但是這個事情因為大院把這個刪減掉後我們真的進行上面非常非常的這個也是我現在比較擔心的一件事因為我從去年質詢的時候就一直在講除了組織之外人民的溝通很重要因為人民他態度一旦轉變政治人物必須要跟著做所以我們對人民的溝通其實很需要這些媒宣相關的費用然後\n這個我們在努力看能不能立法院有些變化不好意思主席佔用時間謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.609 --> 00:02.531\n謝謝主席有請經濟部次長還有副署長謝謝委員好\n\n00:12.231 --> 00:41.614\n你好那這個關稅的問題其實這幾天我覺得炒作是真的非常的多那我個人是感受到非常的痛心為什麼呢就是因為這幾天關稅說真的它本來就是一個長期的談判但是我們可以看到在我們這一邊即使是在立法院不斷的有人用這樣的一個方式去炒作這樣的一個政治議題甚至可以看到有人說什麼這個在野省下當時多少的預算就是為了當救命的基金\n\n00:42.395 --> 00:57.175\n叫台積電連電要來這邊報告啦等等之類的我覺得這種政治操作其實說真的讓我們這些正常的討論沒有辦法持續下去這一點是讓我覺得非常的難過那更不要講說在外面很多政治人物就一直在講說我們要跟中國市場融合\n\n00:58.076 --> 01:17.219\n我記得國民黨的總召都還在講說這一個是不是要中國的遊客趙少康其實也有講一樣的話我現在比較擔心的事情就是說我們現在是要出去談判的人我們也是雖然現在也有90天我們要出去談的時候對於我們這個國內的聲音其實不是很一致\n\n01:18.139 --> 01:45.100\n雖然現在執政黨像剛剛這個前面都有提到不管是這個全美的21倡議啦還有剛剛定宇我們有提到的就是說目前我們總統的這個談話啦投書啦這些事情我們本來是穩定的但現在有一群人等於是在扯後腿啦這一群人呢等於一直在講說我們跟中國站在一起到底有什麼問題啊這一件事情呢會形成我們很大的一個loss因為不管怎麼講今天有兩件事情第一個是順差的問題必須要被解決\n\n01:45.880 --> 02:13.476\n所以呢我看到總統的投書有特別提到到底要做什麼樣的採購但第二個問題最重要的就還是經濟安全那經濟安全這件事情呢目前來講看起來就是選錯的人關稅一二五那如果說我們今天決定假設有國內有一直很大的一個聲音告訴我們說要跟中國站在一起這會是我們非常大的危機因為這就等於你沒有去加入這一個非紅的供應鏈等於你不重視經濟的安全\n\n02:14.136 --> 02:39.005\n所以我從這一個我去年就已經問過部長經濟部部長那我在總質詢也有再問過一次那一次問的主要是跟淘寶有關還有跟算能科技有關的這個洗產地的問題那這邊呢我想問的就是這一個不過在這個之前我還要再講一下就是我覺得這是一個核心問題我覺得一定要去注意就是這個去年這一個呢也是陳韻甄委員跟陳學生委員他們呢提了這個離島建設條例裡面的第六項\n\n02:42.577 --> 03:00.927\n他有提到說這一個呢中國的這一個呢人民法人團體機構資金物品商務勞務或服務進出離島自由貿易示範區有沒有然後呢他的許可條件與程序呢等於呢由會商各離島縣政府自己來擬定這就是一個息產地的一個規定\n\n03:02.068 --> 03:27.325\n等於是說我們現在要防止習產地我等一下要持續的重點就是要怎麼去防止但現在是有人不斷在開後門用這樣的一個方式我們先不要講人員的管理人員的管理光是我的附中草案就已經被擋了44次然後還有我們的關鍵技術我在我的兩岸條例的修正裡面我們關鍵技術還有關鍵的基礎人員要怎麼去做管制這個都已經被擋這個就算了離島建設條例是直接開後門\n\n03:28.266 --> 03:50.824\n那這個是一個危機所以現在除了我們要擋下這個危機之外因為畢竟這個我記得陳玉正委員跟陳學生委員並沒有在這個被公民團體罷免的名單裡但無論如何這個法案是有可能會去被推行的有可能是國民黨想要通過的而這個就會造成危機你在談判的時候結果裡面的人跟你講說我們現在台灣準備要討論這個離島建設條例我們準備要讓離島中國的公司進來不用受到審查中國的人進來不用受到審查\n\n03:57.910 --> 04:20.888\n那這樣的話要怎麼去做對外的談判所以呢這個剛剛我看前面馬文君委員其實也有提到說什麼這個我們現在到底這個南向到哪裡去啦或什麼之類的我覺得有時候我們在討論這件事情的時候真的必須要具備一般的知識我們台灣現在呢可以看到這個紅線的部分是我們對中國的投資是不斷地在下降我們對其他國家的投資是不斷地在上升從20\n\n04:23.831 --> 04:46.193\n18、19年開始我們對於東協也開始往上升我們對於美加末開始往上升對於中國跟香港開始下降這跟現在有沒有關稅根本就沒有關係這是這89年以來我們政府最重要的一個大政策而這個政策一直都在推行當中所以台積電今天去赴美投資也就是只不過是這樣的一環但這三天我看到很大量的政治操作我看到經濟部是有挺住啦\n\n04:46.573 --> 05:01.495\n但這個政策操作就是在講說台積電都已經去美國了為什麼沒有換到什麼東西等等之類的沒有這是這八九年以來我們政府一貫的政策就是我們必須要去風險化我們不能夠跟中國綁在一起跟中國綁在一起就是會出問題\n\n05:02.637 --> 05:19.315\n那現在的這些漏洞呢除了我們要擋下這個藍白現在可能想要去主推這些有的沒的法案之外我認為有一個關鍵就是我們現行的規定的習產地有沒有辦法擋下來所以我看一下像這個是這個原產地證明書及加工證明書的管理辦法\n\n05:21.016 --> 05:43.780\n這個我看署長這個副署長或者次長都可以看一下在這個第二款因為他說貨品加工或製造這邊我們先不講技術先講最終貨品它的附加價值超過35%或特定貨品已符合貿易署公告的重要製程前面這個附加價值率是有公式的所以既然有公式的話你就一翻兩瞪眼企業也好遵循你今天去跟美國談判的時候也可以講說我們根據這個來認定什麼叫做MIT\n\n05:46.881 --> 06:00.537\n所以其產地的問題怎麼去擋下但後面有這個叫做特定貨品已符合貿易署公告那這個就變成有一個空間變成說他可以去認定那當然這個有空間有彈性本來在行政機關不是壞事\n\n06:01.778 --> 06:16.312\n所以我現在想要問的事情就是說如果我們今天這九十天之內因為看起來美國非常重視稀產地那現在有這個也不算是後門就算是有個行政的彈性在這邊但這個彈性別人可能就會質疑說你這個重要製程你的認定標準是什麼我們這個標準如果講得夠清楚就能夠去擋下說\n\n06:23.058 --> 06:42.440\n那這個洗產地的疑慮很明顯台灣是沒有的所以不知道看是次長還是副處長針對這一點就是這一個我們現在有沒有什麼好的標準慢慢在進行當中如果說這個是需要機密會議再討論或者說對外談判先不要講出來的話我們可以另外再安排沒有關係但是就可以跟國人公開的回答就可以\n\n06:42.500 --> 07:07.334\n是謝謝委員的指教委員非常關心未來有沒有洗產地的問題實際上呢我們從今年的二月份就已經開始在實施相關的規定我們有做對自中國進口的這個產品做監測首先看它的這個金額進口的金額還有進口的量是不是有異常同時呢我們也是跟相同的產品去跟蘇美\n\n07:08.715 --> 07:34.794\n的這個部分的去做勾結任何有問題的話我們就會去了解這個實際的狀況那如果未來廠商有違反息產地的這些相關的規定的話根據貿易法我們可以給處罰最高可以罰到300萬單筆甚至呢我們可以停止他這個進出口的資格所以這個機制呢其實現在已經是在進行了\n\n07:35.014 --> 07:54.886\n那我這樣聽起來的話金流算是一個重要的認定標準金流的異常那除了金流的異常之外我在想的事情就是因為貨品這邊呢可能會比較容易那我之前在總質詢的時候我就有在問這個貿易法第13條那裡面有這個我講前兩個就好戰略性高科技貨品出口跟這個軍用兩用貨品技術出口管制清單\n\n07:55.766 --> 08:24.495\n那因為我記得好像是昨天還前天剛好在國科會他們有一個相關的討論然後有一個美國商務部的這個官員是他已經做了三十幾年三十年了他已經退休了他有來台灣做一個內部的這個演講但是在國科會那裡那他就有講到一件事情就是說他認為貨品相關的就像剛剛這個次長講的可以有一些標準出來那有標準出來的話你根據什麼標準這樣你可以去對外說你看我們這邊並沒有息產地的問題但他說有一個部分他一直覺得很困擾就是技術\n\n08:26.216 --> 08:43.318\n比如說晶片因為他說技術現在進展得太快了所以他說以前美國商務部就是說他們一直在思考一件事情就是他們內部有專業團隊而這個專業團隊不是指經貿專業團隊指的是那個技術就是他對半導體特別了解所以他可以看得出來有沒有問題\n\n08:44.119 --> 09:07.806\n所以像之前輝達其實像美國現在技術它已經有一個很高度的管制那輝達為了要不符合那一個所謂的高標準它還要降低它的那一個晶片然後再出口到這個中國去所以台灣現在在這個部分就是說我們對於這樣的一個團隊其實沒有說要求一定要在經濟部裡面但是不管是在國安的團隊裡面還是在國科會裡面這個方向現在是否有\n\n09:08.487 --> 09:36.637\n是有關於技術的部分我們已經公布了兩波的國家核心關鍵技術現在總計有32項那這個部分呢包括了相關的行政部門我們都有跨部會的一個機制在討論那貿易署的經濟部的部分因為最主要是貨品的出口管制所以在科技的部分我們跟國科會還有其他的單位都有固定的在做討論如何防範台灣的高科技外流\n\n09:37.517 --> 10:04.884\n那這邊我覺得還有兩個細項就是說我們在跟國科會有一定的討論那國科會這邊在內部我看到他們裡面內部這些政府相關的這些他的智庫他有提出一些建議這些建議裡面包含我剛剛講的除了這個技術它的更新要更快之外因為我覺得速度真的很重要就像我去年在質詢的時候那時候就發現華為其實還沒有到我們的清單上所以我就說這個速度太慢了那技術的速度一定要比這個還要再更快這是第一點\n\n10:05.584 --> 10:31.600\n第二點就是人流啦就是說我們剛剛有提到金流的異常現在有提到技術要怎麼外流但人會帶著技術走嘛所以人要怎麼做就是說今天在什麼樣背景的人要怎麼去做背景的審查之外什麼樣的行為我看到美國現在的做法就是什麼樣的行為你就已經預設你就有可能是在export就deemedexport就是預設你可能會把技術帶出去然後做相關的管制那這個部分我是有先針對這幾個條文\n\n10:33.781 --> 10:52.660\n還有國安法相關的條文要做出一些修正但這個可能也要等到國科會提出一些願板那我在總質詢的時候其實有提到說這個願板要趕快出來那現在畢竟你看說我們現在是90天嘛這90天之內如果我們能夠更把這些跟經濟安全有關的法案願板出來迅速討論通過的話我覺得這個對我們談判的空間一定會有幫助啦\n\n10:55.663 --> 11:02.117\n是的好那這個這個我可能就已經沒時間問了而且但是我最後一個問題問一下這個民企司長不好意思\n\n11:11.518 --> 11:31.192\n因為最近我們有看到美國在做一些相關的民調,就是圓屋這件事情,還有對於北約的態度。那民主黨跟共和黨還是會有一些分歧。因為以前我們在外交上面就一直提到說要怎麼去做這些溝通交流。我覺得我們外交部對於智庫的部分真的是越做越好,組織的部分也是。\n\n11:31.952 --> 11:46.797\n那公眾的部分呢喬爾會雖然有幫忙但我覺得主力應該在外交部那現在等於說我覺得現在世界各國民眾對於一些特定議題的想法會跟著政黨走在台灣也是這個樣子那目前我們現在對於這一個不同黨派的這個溝通策略分頭併進的狀況如何\n\n11:48.581 --> 12:08.511\n我們當然是說對於這個像我們重要的友邦當然是說他們所有的這個不同的這個黨派我們都會有所接觸那麼我們尤其是說當然我們不可避免還是跟執政的這個團隊有更多的這個互動但是我們也沒有說這個在野的就不溝通\n\n12:09.711 --> 12:31.170\n但是現在外交部的一個跟溝通,跟民眾的,像剛剛委員所提到的,我們的形象的形塑,遇到一個很大的問題,就是櫃院凍傷我們的相關預算。有一個海外的傷到腹的。等於是完全沒有的時候,其實在外管上面進行相關的工作非常的困難。\n\n12:31.750 --> 12:59.410\n那尤其是在一些地方其實在我們的外交擴展上面可能是有一些這個比較自愛難行的地方所以我們希望能夠加強跟民眾的溝通但是這個事情因為大院把這個刪減掉後我們真的進行上面非常非常的這個也是我現在比較擔心的一件事因為我從去年質詢的時候就一直在講除了組織之外人民的溝通很重要因為人民他態度一旦轉變政治人物必須要跟著做所以我們對人民的溝通其實很需要這些媒宣相關的費用然後\n\n13:00.331 --> 13:03.634\n這個我們在努力看能不能立法院有些變化不好意思主席佔用時間謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.609,"end":2.531,"text":"謝謝主席有請經濟部次長還有副署長謝謝委員好"},{"start":12.231,"end":41.614,"text":"你好那這個關稅的問題其實這幾天我覺得炒作是真的非常的多那我個人是感受到非常的痛心為什麼呢就是因為這幾天關稅說真的它本來就是一個長期的談判但是我們可以看到在我們這一邊即使是在立法院不斷的有人用這樣的一個方式去炒作這樣的一個政治議題甚至可以看到有人說什麼這個在野省下當時多少的預算就是為了當救命的基金"},{"start":42.395,"end":57.175,"text":"叫台積電連電要來這邊報告啦等等之類的我覺得這種政治操作其實說真的讓我們這些正常的討論沒有辦法持續下去這一點是讓我覺得非常的難過那更不要講說在外面很多政治人物就一直在講說我們要跟中國市場融合"},{"start":58.076,"end":77.219,"text":"我記得國民黨的總召都還在講說這一個是不是要中國的遊客趙少康其實也有講一樣的話我現在比較擔心的事情就是說我們現在是要出去談判的人我們也是雖然現在也有90天我們要出去談的時候對於我們這個國內的聲音其實不是很一致"},{"start":78.139,"end":105.1,"text":"雖然現在執政黨像剛剛這個前面都有提到不管是這個全美的21倡議啦還有剛剛定宇我們有提到的就是說目前我們總統的這個談話啦投書啦這些事情我們本來是穩定的但現在有一群人等於是在扯後腿啦這一群人呢等於一直在講說我們跟中國站在一起到底有什麼問題啊這一件事情呢會形成我們很大的一個loss因為不管怎麼講今天有兩件事情第一個是順差的問題必須要被解決"},{"start":105.88,"end":133.476,"text":"所以呢我看到總統的投書有特別提到到底要做什麼樣的採購但第二個問題最重要的就還是經濟安全那經濟安全這件事情呢目前來講看起來就是選錯的人關稅一二五那如果說我們今天決定假設有國內有一直很大的一個聲音告訴我們說要跟中國站在一起這會是我們非常大的危機因為這就等於你沒有去加入這一個非紅的供應鏈等於你不重視經濟的安全"},{"start":134.136,"end":159.005,"text":"所以我從這一個我去年就已經問過部長經濟部部長那我在總質詢也有再問過一次那一次問的主要是跟淘寶有關還有跟算能科技有關的這個洗產地的問題那這邊呢我想問的就是這一個不過在這個之前我還要再講一下就是我覺得這是一個核心問題我覺得一定要去注意就是這個去年這一個呢也是陳韻甄委員跟陳學生委員他們呢提了這個離島建設條例裡面的第六項"},{"start":162.577,"end":180.927,"text":"他有提到說這一個呢中國的這一個呢人民法人團體機構資金物品商務勞務或服務進出離島自由貿易示範區有沒有然後呢他的許可條件與程序呢等於呢由會商各離島縣政府自己來擬定這就是一個息產地的一個規定"},{"start":182.068,"end":207.325,"text":"等於是說我們現在要防止習產地我等一下要持續的重點就是要怎麼去防止但現在是有人不斷在開後門用這樣的一個方式我們先不要講人員的管理人員的管理光是我的附中草案就已經被擋了44次然後還有我們的關鍵技術我在我的兩岸條例的修正裡面我們關鍵技術還有關鍵的基礎人員要怎麼去做管制這個都已經被擋這個就算了離島建設條例是直接開後門"},{"start":208.266,"end":230.824,"text":"那這個是一個危機所以現在除了我們要擋下這個危機之外因為畢竟這個我記得陳玉正委員跟陳學生委員並沒有在這個被公民團體罷免的名單裡但無論如何這個法案是有可能會去被推行的有可能是國民黨想要通過的而這個就會造成危機你在談判的時候結果裡面的人跟你講說我們現在台灣準備要討論這個離島建設條例我們準備要讓離島中國的公司進來不用受到審查中國的人進來不用受到審查"},{"start":237.91,"end":260.888,"text":"那這樣的話要怎麼去做對外的談判所以呢這個剛剛我看前面馬文君委員其實也有提到說什麼這個我們現在到底這個南向到哪裡去啦或什麼之類的我覺得有時候我們在討論這件事情的時候真的必須要具備一般的知識我們台灣現在呢可以看到這個紅線的部分是我們對中國的投資是不斷地在下降我們對其他國家的投資是不斷地在上升從20"},{"start":263.831,"end":286.193,"text":"18、19年開始我們對於東協也開始往上升我們對於美加末開始往上升對於中國跟香港開始下降這跟現在有沒有關稅根本就沒有關係這是這89年以來我們政府最重要的一個大政策而這個政策一直都在推行當中所以台積電今天去赴美投資也就是只不過是這樣的一環但這三天我看到很大量的政治操作我看到經濟部是有挺住啦"},{"start":286.573,"end":301.495,"text":"但這個政策操作就是在講說台積電都已經去美國了為什麼沒有換到什麼東西等等之類的沒有這是這八九年以來我們政府一貫的政策就是我們必須要去風險化我們不能夠跟中國綁在一起跟中國綁在一起就是會出問題"},{"start":302.637,"end":319.315,"text":"那現在的這些漏洞呢除了我們要擋下這個藍白現在可能想要去主推這些有的沒的法案之外我認為有一個關鍵就是我們現行的規定的習產地有沒有辦法擋下來所以我看一下像這個是這個原產地證明書及加工證明書的管理辦法"},{"start":321.016,"end":343.78,"text":"這個我看署長這個副署長或者次長都可以看一下在這個第二款因為他說貨品加工或製造這邊我們先不講技術先講最終貨品它的附加價值超過35%或特定貨品已符合貿易署公告的重要製程前面這個附加價值率是有公式的所以既然有公式的話你就一翻兩瞪眼企業也好遵循你今天去跟美國談判的時候也可以講說我們根據這個來認定什麼叫做MIT"},{"start":346.881,"end":360.537,"text":"所以其產地的問題怎麼去擋下但後面有這個叫做特定貨品已符合貿易署公告那這個就變成有一個空間變成說他可以去認定那當然這個有空間有彈性本來在行政機關不是壞事"},{"start":361.778,"end":376.312,"text":"所以我現在想要問的事情就是說如果我們今天這九十天之內因為看起來美國非常重視稀產地那現在有這個也不算是後門就算是有個行政的彈性在這邊但這個彈性別人可能就會質疑說你這個重要製程你的認定標準是什麼我們這個標準如果講得夠清楚就能夠去擋下說"},{"start":383.058,"end":402.44,"text":"那這個洗產地的疑慮很明顯台灣是沒有的所以不知道看是次長還是副處長針對這一點就是這一個我們現在有沒有什麼好的標準慢慢在進行當中如果說這個是需要機密會議再討論或者說對外談判先不要講出來的話我們可以另外再安排沒有關係但是就可以跟國人公開的回答就可以"},{"start":402.5,"end":427.334,"text":"是謝謝委員的指教委員非常關心未來有沒有洗產地的問題實際上呢我們從今年的二月份就已經開始在實施相關的規定我們有做對自中國進口的這個產品做監測首先看它的這個金額進口的金額還有進口的量是不是有異常同時呢我們也是跟相同的產品去跟蘇美"},{"start":428.715,"end":454.794,"text":"的這個部分的去做勾結任何有問題的話我們就會去了解這個實際的狀況那如果未來廠商有違反息產地的這些相關的規定的話根據貿易法我們可以給處罰最高可以罰到300萬單筆甚至呢我們可以停止他這個進出口的資格所以這個機制呢其實現在已經是在進行了"},{"start":455.014,"end":474.886,"text":"那我這樣聽起來的話 金流算是一個重要的認定標準金流的異常那除了金流的異常之外 我在想的事情就是因為貨品這邊呢 可能會比較容易那我之前在總質詢的時候 我就有在問這個貿易法第13條那裡面有這個 我講前兩個就好戰略性高科技貨品出口跟這個軍用兩用貨品技術出口管制清單"},{"start":475.766,"end":504.495,"text":"那因為我記得好像是昨天還前天剛好在國科會他們有一個相關的討論然後有一個美國商務部的這個官員是他已經做了三十幾年三十年了他已經退休了他有來台灣做一個內部的這個演講但是在國科會那裡那他就有講到一件事情就是說他認為貨品相關的就像剛剛這個次長講的可以有一些標準出來那有標準出來的話你根據什麼標準這樣你可以去對外說你看我們這邊並沒有息產地的問題但他說有一個部分他一直覺得很困擾就是技術"},{"start":506.216,"end":523.318,"text":"比如說晶片因為他說技術現在進展得太快了所以他說以前美國商務部就是說他們一直在思考一件事情就是他們內部有專業團隊而這個專業團隊不是指經貿專業團隊指的是那個技術就是他對半導體特別了解所以他可以看得出來有沒有問題"},{"start":524.119,"end":547.806,"text":"所以像之前輝達其實像美國現在技術它已經有一個很高度的管制那輝達為了要不符合那一個所謂的高標準它還要降低它的那一個晶片然後再出口到這個中國去所以台灣現在在這個部分就是說我們對於這樣的一個團隊其實沒有說要求一定要在經濟部裡面但是不管是在國安的團隊裡面還是在國科會裡面這個方向現在是否有"},{"start":548.487,"end":576.637,"text":"是有關於技術的部分我們已經公布了兩波的國家核心關鍵技術現在總計有32項那這個部分呢包括了相關的行政部門我們都有跨部會的一個機制在討論那貿易署的經濟部的部分因為最主要是貨品的出口管制所以在科技的部分我們跟國科會還有其他的單位都有固定的在做討論如何防範台灣的高科技外流"},{"start":577.517,"end":604.884,"text":"那這邊我覺得還有兩個細項就是說我們在跟國科會有一定的討論那國科會這邊在內部我看到他們裡面內部這些政府相關的這些他的智庫他有提出一些建議這些建議裡面包含我剛剛講的除了這個技術它的更新要更快之外因為我覺得速度真的很重要就像我去年在質詢的時候那時候就發現華為其實還沒有到我們的清單上所以我就說這個速度太慢了那技術的速度一定要比這個還要再更快這是第一點"},{"start":605.584,"end":631.6,"text":"第二點就是人流啦就是說我們剛剛有提到金流的異常現在有提到技術要怎麼外流但人會帶著技術走嘛所以人要怎麼做就是說今天在什麼樣背景的人要怎麼去做背景的審查之外什麼樣的行為我看到美國現在的做法就是什麼樣的行為你就已經預設你就有可能是在export就deemed export就是預設你可能會把技術帶出去然後做相關的管制那這個部分我是有先針對這幾個條文"},{"start":633.781,"end":652.66,"text":"還有國安法相關的條文要做出一些修正但這個可能也要等到國科會提出一些願板那我在總質詢的時候其實有提到說這個願板要趕快出來那現在畢竟你看說我們現在是90天嘛這90天之內如果我們能夠更把這些跟經濟安全有關的法案願板出來迅速討論通過的話我覺得這個對我們談判的空間一定會有幫助啦"},{"start":655.663,"end":662.117,"text":"是的好那這個這個我可能就已經沒時間問了而且但是我最後一個問題問一下這個民企司長不好意思"},{"start":671.518,"end":691.192,"text":"因為最近我們有看到美國在做一些相關的民調,就是圓屋這件事情,還有對於北約的態度。那民主黨跟共和黨還是會有一些分歧。因為以前我們在外交上面就一直提到說要怎麼去做這些溝通交流。我覺得我們外交部對於智庫的部分真的是越做越好,組織的部分也是。"},{"start":691.952,"end":706.797,"text":"那公眾的部分呢喬爾會雖然有幫忙但我覺得主力應該在外交部那現在等於說我覺得現在世界各國民眾對於一些特定議題的想法會跟著政黨走在台灣也是這個樣子那目前我們現在對於這一個不同黨派的這個溝通策略分頭併進的狀況如何"},{"start":708.581,"end":728.511,"text":"我們當然是說對於這個像我們重要的友邦當然是說他們所有的這個不同的這個黨派我們都會有所接觸那麼我們尤其是說當然我們不可避免還是跟執政的這個團隊有更多的這個互動但是我們也沒有說這個在野的就不溝通"},{"start":729.711,"end":751.17,"text":"但是現在外交部的一個跟溝通,跟民眾的,像剛剛委員所提到的,我們的形象的形塑,遇到一個很大的問題,就是櫃院凍傷我們的相關預算。有一個海外的傷到腹的。等於是完全沒有的時候,其實在外管上面進行相關的工作非常的困難。"},{"start":751.75,"end":779.41,"text":"那尤其是在一些地方其實在我們的外交擴展上面可能是有一些這個比較自愛難行的地方所以我們希望能夠加強跟民眾的溝通但是這個事情因為大院把這個刪減掉後我們真的進行上面非常非常的這個也是我現在比較擔心的一件事因為我從去年質詢的時候就一直在講除了組織之外人民的溝通很重要因為人民他態度一旦轉變政治人物必須要跟著做所以我們對人民的溝通其實很需要這些媒宣相關的費用然後"},{"start":780.331,"end":783.634,"text":"這個我們在努力看能不能立法院有些變化不好意思主席佔用時間謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":268,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時26分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部次長還有副署長，謝謝。"],["江次長文若：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：你好。這個關稅的問題這幾天我覺得炒作是真的非常的多，我個人感到非常的痛心，因為關稅說真的本來就是一個長期的談判，但是我們可以看到，在我們這邊即使是在立法院，不斷的有人用這樣一個方式去炒作這樣一個政治議題，甚至可以看到有人說什麼在野當時省下多少的預算，就是為了當救命的基金，叫台積電、聯電要來這邊報告等等之類的，我覺得這種政治操作說真的讓正常的討論沒有辦法持續下去，這一點讓我覺得非常難過。更不要講在外面很多政治人物就一直在講我們要跟中國市場融合，我記得國民黨的總召都還在講是不是要中國的遊客，趙少康其實也有講一樣的話。","我現在比較擔心的事情就是，我們現在是要出去談判的人，雖然現在有90天，那我們要出去談的時候，我們國內的聲音其實不是很一致，雖然現在執政黨像剛剛前面都有提到，不管是臺美21倡議，還有剛剛王定宇委員提到我們總統的談話、投書，這些事情我們本來是穩定的，但現在有一群人等於是在扯後腿，這一群人一直在講我們跟中國站在一起到底有什麼問題，這一件事情會形成我們很大的一個loss，因為不管怎麼講，今天有兩件事情：第一個是順差的問題必須要被解決，所以我看到總統的投書也特別提到到底要做什麼樣的採購，但第二個最重要的就還是經濟安全，那經濟安全這件事情目前來講看起來就是選錯的人關稅125嘛！今天假設國內一直有很大的聲音告訴我們說要跟中國站在一起，這會是我們非常大的危機，因為這就等於你沒有加入非紅供應鏈，等於你不重視經濟安全。所以我去年就已經問過經濟部部長，我在總質詢也有再問過一次，那一次問的主要是跟淘寶有關，還有跟算能科技有關的洗產地的問題，這邊我想問的就是這一個。","不過在這之前，我還是要再講一下，我覺得這是一個核心問題，一定要去注意，就是去年陳玉珍委員跟陳雪生委員他們提的離島建設條例裡面的第六項提到，中國的人民、法人、團體、機構、資金、物品、商品、勞務或服務，進出離島自由貿易示範區，它的許可條件與程序等於由會商各離島縣政府自己來擬定，這就是一個洗產地的規定，等於我們現在要防止洗產地，我等一下要質詢的重點就是要怎麼去防止，但現在卻有人不斷在開後門，用這樣的方式，我們先不要講人員的管理。人員的管理，光是我的赴中草案就已經被擋了44次，還有我們的關鍵技術，我在兩岸關係條例的修正裡面，對於關鍵技術、關鍵技術人員要怎麼去做管制，都已經被擋，這就算了，離島建設條例是直接開後門，這是一個危機。所以現在我們除了要擋下這個危機之外，我記得陳玉珍委員和陳雪生委員並沒有在被公民團體罷免的名單裡，但無論如何，這個法案是有可能會被推行的，有可能是國民黨想要通過的，而這個就會造成危機。當你在談判的時候，結果裡面的人跟你講現在臺灣準備要討論離島建設條例，離島準備要讓中國的公司進來，而且不用受到審查，中國的人進來也不用受到審查，這樣要怎麼去做對外的談判？","我剛剛聽到馬文君委員其實也有提到，他說我們現在到底南向到哪裡去了或什麼之類的，我覺得有時候我們在討論這件事情的時候，真的必須要具備一般的知識。我們可以看到紅線部分是臺灣對中國的投資，是不斷地在下降，而對其他國家的投資是不斷地在上升，從2018、2019年開始，我們對於東協也開始往上升，對於美加墨開始往上升，對於中國和香港開始下降，跟有沒有關稅根本就沒有關係，這是這8、9年以來政府最重要的一個大政策，而這個政策一直都在推行當中。所以台積電赴美投資也只不過是這樣的一環，但這三天我看到很大量的政治操作，我看到經濟部是有挺住了，這個政治操作就是在講台積電都已經去美國了，為什麼沒有換到什麼東西等等之類，沒有，這是這8、9年以來政府一貫的政策，就是我們必須要去風險化，我們不能夠跟中國綁在一起，跟中國綁在一起就是會出問題。","針對現在的這些漏洞，我們除了要擋下藍白可能想要主推的這些有的沒的法案之外，我認為有一個關鍵就是現行規定的洗產地有沒有辦法擋下來。依據「原產地證明書及加工證明書管理辦法」，副署長或者次長都可以看一下，在第二款貨品之加工或製造，我們先不講技術，先講最終貨品的部分，它的附加價值超過35%或特定貨品已符合貿易署公告之重要製程。前面的附加價值率是有公式的，既然有公式的話就一翻兩瞪眼，企業也好遵循，你今天去跟美國談判的時候也可以講我們根據這個規定來認定什麼是MIT，所以洗產地的問題怎麼去擋下。但是後面特定貨品已符合貿易署公告的規定就變成有一個空間，也就是它可以去認定，當然有空間、有彈性本來在行政機關不是壞事，所以我現在想要問的事情是，如果我們在這90天之內，因為看起來美國非常重視洗產地的問題，現在有這個規定也不算是後門，而是有個行政的彈性在這邊。但是這個彈性可能就讓別人質疑這個重要製程，你的認定標準是什麼？這個標準如果講得夠清楚就能夠去擋下洗產地的疑慮，因為很明顯臺灣是沒有的。所以次長、副署長，針對這一點我們現在有沒有什麼好的標準慢慢在進行當中？如果這個是需要機密會議再討論或者對外談判，先不要講出來的話，我們可以另外再安排沒有關係，但是就可以跟國人公開的回答就可以。"],["江次長文若：謝謝委員的指教，委員非常關心未來有沒有洗產地的問題，實際上，我們從今年2月份就已經開始在實施相關的規定，我們有對自中國進口的產品進行監測，首先會看它的進口金額以及進口量是不是有異常。同時，我們也會將相同產品去跟輸美的部分做勾稽，有任何問題的話，我們就會去瞭解實際的狀況，如果未來廠商有違反這些洗產地的相關規定的話，根據貿易法，我們可以給予處罰，最高單筆可以罰到300萬，甚至我們可以停止它進出口的資格，所以這個機制其實現在已經是在進行了。"],["沈委員伯洋：OK！我這樣聽起來，金流算是一個重要的認定標準，除了金流異常之外，我在想是因為貨品這邊可能會比較容易，但是我之前在總質詢的時候就有提到貿易法第十三條，我講前兩個項目就好，分別是戰略性高科技貨品出口、軍用兩用貨品及技術出口管制清單，我記得昨天還是前天剛好在國科會有一個相關的討論，有一個美國商務部做了三十幾年已經退休的官員，他有來臺灣在國科會做一個內部演講。他有講到一件事情，就像剛剛次長講的，他認為貨品相關的可以有一些標準出來，有標準出來的話，根據什麼標準，這樣你可以對外說我們這邊並沒有洗產地的問題，但是有一個部分他一直覺得很困擾，就是技術，比如晶片，他說因為技術現在進展的太快了，所以美國商務部一直在思考一件事情，他們內部有專業團隊，這個專業團隊不是指經貿專業團隊，指的是那個技術，他對半導體特別瞭解，所以可以看得出來有沒有問題，就像之前的輝達，其實美國現在對於技術已經有很高度的管制，輝達為了要不符合那個所謂的高標準，它還要降低它的晶片再出口到中國。所以臺灣現在在這個部分，就是我們對於這樣的團隊，其實我沒有要求一定要在經濟部裡面，但是不管是在國安團隊裡面，還是在國科會裡面，這個方向現在是否有？"],["江次長文若：有關於技術的部分，我們已經公布了兩波的國家核心關鍵技術，現在總計有32項，這個部分包括相關的行政部門，我們都有跨部會的機制在討論，經濟部的部分最主要是貨品的出口管制，所以在科技的部分，我們與國科會以及其他的單位都有固定在討論，如何防範臺灣的高科技外流。"],["沈委員伯洋：我覺得還有兩個細項，你們跟國科會有一定的討論嘛！"],["江次長文若：有。"],["沈委員伯洋：我看到國科會內部這些政府相關的智庫有提出一些建議，這些建議裡面包含我剛剛講的，除了技術的更新要更快之外，因為我覺得速度真的很重要，就像我去年在質詢的時候就發現，華為其實還沒有到我們的清單上，所以我就說這個速度太慢了，技術的速度一定要比這個還要再更快，這是第一點。第二點就是人流，我們剛剛有提到金流的異常，現在有提到技術要怎麼防範外流，但人會帶著技術走，所以人要怎麼做，今天什麼樣背景的人要怎麼去做背景審查之外，還有什麼樣的行為，我看到美國現在的做法就是什麼樣的行為就已經預設你有可能是在export，就是deemed export，預設你可能會把技術帶出去，然後做相關的管制。這個部分我有先針對這幾個條文，還有國安法相關的條文做出一些修正，但這個可能也要等到國科會提出院版，我在總質詢的時候其實有提到院版要趕快出來，畢竟我們現在有90天，這90天之內如果我們能夠把這些與經濟安全有關的法案院版出來，迅速討論通過的話，我覺得這個對我們談判的空間一定會有幫助。"],["江次長文若：是的。"],["沈委員伯洋：我可能已經沒時間問了，最後一個問題，我問一下明祺次長。"],["陳次長明祺：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為最近我們有看到美國在做一些相關的民調，對於援烏這件事情以及對北約的態度，民主黨和共和黨還是會有一些分歧，以前我們在外交上面一直提到要怎麼去做這些溝通交流，我覺得外交部對於智庫的部分真的是越做越好，組織的部分也是。"],["陳次長明祺：謝謝。"],["沈委員伯洋：公眾的部分僑委會雖然有幫忙，但我覺得主力應該在外交部，而且現在世界各國的民眾對於一些特定議題的想法會跟著政黨走，在臺灣也是這個樣子，目前我們對於不同黨派的溝通策略分頭並進的狀況如何？"],["陳次長明祺：對於我們重要的友邦，他們所有的不同黨派，我們都會有所接觸，當然不可避免，我們還是跟執政團隊有更多的互動，但是我們也沒有在野的就不溝通，但現在外交部與民眾的溝通，像剛才委員所提到的我們形象的形塑遇到一個很大的問題，就是貴院凍刪我們的相關預算……"],["沈委員伯洋：有一個海外的刪到負的。"],["陳次長明祺：等於是完全沒有的時候，其實在外館進行相關的工作非常困難，尤其是在一些地方，我們的外交擴展上面可能會有一些比較窒礙難行的地方，所以我們希望能夠加強跟民眾的溝通，但是因為大院把相關預算刪減掉之後，我們在進行上真的非常困難。"],["沈委員伯洋：這個也是我現在比較擔心的一件事，因為我從去年質詢的時候就一直在講，除了組織之外，人民的溝通很重要，因為人民的態度一旦轉變，政治人物必須要跟著做，所以對人民的溝通其實很需要這些媒宣的相關費用，這個我們再努力，我們再努力，看能不能立法院有一些變化，不好意思，主席，我占用了時間，謝謝。"],["陳次長明祺：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋召委上臺質詢。","接下來有請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-7","speakers":["黃仁","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","馬文君","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","陳俊宇","林倩綺","林楚茵","李坤城","葉元之","林憶君"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、經濟部次長、大陸委員會副主任委員、財政部次長、國家發展委員會副主任委\n員、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表、中央銀行副總裁報告「美國開啟全球貿易制裁及與中\n共競合下，我外交經貿戰略佈局及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00004"}}}