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\"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"監\"}, {\"word\": \"督\", \"start\": 810.402, \"end\": 810.542, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 810.542, \"end\": 811.642, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"簽\"}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 811.642, \"end\": 811.862, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 811.862, \"end\": 812.082, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 812.082, \"end\": 812.342, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 812.342, \"end\": 812.682, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"談\"}, {\"word\": \"判\", \"start\": 812.682, \"end\": 813.122, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 813.122, \"end\": 813.763, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 813.763, \"end\": 813.883, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 813.883, \"end\": 813.983, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 813.983, \"end\": 814.023, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"與\"}, 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0.857}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 970.732, \"end\": 970.832, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 970.832, \"end\": 970.972, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 970.972, \"end\": 971.092, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 971.092, \"end\": 971.112, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,472 --> 00:00:01,673\n蔡議員請準備謝謝院長麻煩有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選\n\n2\n00:00:35,073 --> 00:00:59,697\n黃偉豪院長好星期一院長召集朝野各黨團到行政院的時候我當面代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團跟您表示過對台灣民眾黨而言我們一定把國家利益放在第一位謝謝因此當天您願意來立法院報告我們在禮拜二的時候馬上排了第一個案子\n\n3\n00:01:00,609 --> 00:01:28,995\n第二個當天行政院所交給我們的書面報告裡面提到產業創新條例希望趕快完成三讀台灣民眾黨在禮拜二的時候把他排成第二案但是我們希望當在野黨都有心我們要一起為國家艱難的時刻奮鬥的時候我希望民主進步黨作為一個執政黨禮拜二本來搶卷條例就可以完成二讀跟三讀了\n\n4\n00:01:29,741 --> 00:01:54,100\n杯葛了一天繼續空轉希望執政黨立院黨團的同仁大家也可以共同努力完成行政院期待的立法院長贊不贊成我希望大院的議事能夠順利的進行先排除一些大家爭議的如果能夠協商那一定很快能夠進入到正常的議事OK我想禮拜二這個場景大家看了心裡都很痛苦\n\n5\n00:01:55,054 --> 00:02:16,341\n行政院要慘狀條例三讀我們也願意配合我相信坐在上面的院長禮拜二也很無奈但現在沒辦法了我們試試看下個禮拜五的時候把它完成二讀跟三讀我們一起來努力接下來有關於台美在進行有關於關稅談判的時候我相信是進入了省水區\n\n6\n00:02:17,621 --> 00:02:36,684\n進入深水區的時候我們從一些基本的問題開始談起院長你認為川普總統要的是什麼他要的是零關稅還是零逆差我認為他是在追求貿易平衡排除不公平包括零逆差以及排除關稅貿易障礙\n\n7\n00:02:37,782 --> 00:03:01,493\n其實你剛剛講一句話,我不是很贊同你說的是川普總統在追求公平貿易這句話非常說的Diplomatic全世界都在追求但是我要說的是川普總統在爭取的是美國最高的利益從我們的角度上面來講,我必須要說他所提出來的對等關稅其實一點都不對等院長你贊不贊成\n\n8\n00:03:02,574 --> 00:03:27,492\n因為他的計算公式只有一個公式一個計算產生一個結果對所有的國家都這樣這就是一個相對性的不公平變成相對性的一致性對台灣來講夠不公平我們當然認為我們應該有更好的一個談判的結果你當初第一時間的時候就講了這個所謂的對等關稅有三大不公平行政院表達了行政院的立場我覺得非常好\n\n9\n00:03:28,226 --> 00:03:51,328\n川普總統站在美國人的立場追求美國的利益我們國家的政府就應該站在台灣人的立場追求台灣人的利益你說了他的公視有非常大的問題我想最近這段時間當中非常多不僅僅是美國的學者甚至是台灣的學者跟評論員大家都提出了相對的批評跟觀察\n\n10\n00:03:52,009 --> 00:04:13,642\n甚至在美國貿易代表署裡面,他所提出來的計算公式裡面,被引用文獻的學者自己都跳出來了,說川普這個計算公式是錯的。基本上還要再處於4,這是他所引用的文獻的學者所講的。那現在的關鍵是什麼?現在的關鍵是我們要的是什麼?\n\n11\n00:04:19,554 --> 00:04:45,631\n我們願意付出什麼我們手上還有什麼籌碼院長接下來在進行跟美國談判的時候啊你覺得台灣要的是什麼我們在計劃跟美國的合作接續過去的台美經貿專業小組以及現在這幾天當中一個禮拜當中持續開會我們當然有列出一些想法策略及應對的一些內容我們願意付出什麼代價\n\n12\n00:04:46,786 --> 00:05:09,763\n付出什麼代價是因為國際貿易嘛有得有失嘛他希望對美國好一點我們的政府應該希望對台灣好一點嗎策略方面我大概不容易明講變明講但是我們可能付出就是我們必須在關稅對等的這個不是對等關稅喔是雙方面關稅對等的情況之下我們可能要做一些調適而且我們在排除非關稅障礙的\n\n13\n00:05:11,544 --> 00:05:37,993\n那個非關稅障礙等一下我再進一步請教我們就從你剛剛所講的關稅對等嘛剛剛你說關稅對等不是對等關稅嘛是互相之間的關稅對等互相之間的關稅對等我們來看一下我們的賴總統從林立立開始談嘛他在彭博的投訴講得很清楚啦我們願意在互惠的基礎上面把關稅調到零\n\n14\n00:05:40,343 --> 00:05:53,528\n這個是他在彭博上面的投書我想我應該沒有誤會啊這樣的意思他說從零關稅談起這是一個談判的態度來來來我唸給你聽啊Wearewillingtofurthercutthisratetozero\n\n15\n00:05:54,349 --> 00:06:11,596\n我們願意把關稅調降到零這個英文沒有那麼難理解啦在互惠的基礎之上現在我的問題就要來了所以我們接下來我們願意把關稅調降到零只要在互惠的基礎之上指的是說如果美國願意調降到零我們也願意調降到零嗎\n\n16\n00:06:12,575 --> 00:06:28,611\n這是一個基本的態度這是一個基本的態度但是要看對國內的產業的衝擊我們可能這個方面也要列為一個國內產業的衝擊就是我們的政府應該要站在人民的立場去思考的事情剛你講一件事情我基本上是同意是說對於\n\n17\n00:06:30,865 --> 00:06:52,134\n台灣談判的策略我們一定尊重行政團隊但是現在直接把我們願意做的事情在媒體上面投書的其實是我們的總統他願意展現出一個態度我覺得不必然是壞事但是我今天只想要提醒院長一件非常重要的事情在國際貿易上\n\n18\n00:06:54,298 --> 00:07:01,365\n我們跟美國之間有得有失但是在國內哪些產業會因此而受益哪些產業會因此而受衝擊\n\n19\n00:07:05,936 --> 00:07:26,290\n在得失之間怎麼樣去平衡怎麼樣去分配這是一個非常重要的事情我為什麼說這是一個非常重要的事情來我進一步請教我們在追求跟美國之間的是什麼樣子的平等互惠是什麼樣的對等互惠是我們片面配合還是我們會爭取跟美國簽訂BTA\n\n20\n00:07:28,598 --> 00:07:45,136\n原則上是希望透過雙邊的關係來談到比方說FTA或者是美加莫的USMCA這樣的方式所以啦不管是FTA啦或者是你剛講的基本上就是台美之間的貿易協定嘛\n\n21\n00:07:46,296 --> 00:08:08,365\n針對台美之間的貿易協定把所有的條件都寫在裡面嘛你們讓什麼我們讓什麼你們希望我們改善什麼我們希望你們配合什麼我們在21世紀貿易倡議當中也是朝這個方向走但是21世紀貿易倡議有去在這一次美國總統片面的對台灣增加關稅這件事情有扮演什麼角色嗎\n\n22\n00:08:09,065 --> 00:08:27,737\n沒有啊全體國人看到了就沒有啊我們的確簽了21世紀貿易倡議啊當初有這個倡議國人也很高興啊結果現在看到的是什麼簽了這個SOWHAT當美國總統片面的要對台灣增加關稅的時候我必須要跟院長強調\n\n23\n00:08:29,471 --> 00:08:45,684\n我再說一次川普站在美國人的立場爭取美國人的利益我沒有話說啦雖然我覺得對台灣不公平對台灣不合理但是我們回到國內的時候國內的團結很重要但是我們也希望什麼我們的政府\n\n24\n00:08:46,224 --> 00:09:02,025\n一定要站在台灣人的立場爭取台灣最高的利益我相信院長跟我的看法是一模一樣的因此我下一個問題是我們現在到底是要片面配合美方的要求還是我們要爭取跟他簽BTA\n\n25\n00:09:03,626 --> 00:09:17,334\n這個態度這個方向很重要具體的底牌是什麼具體的策略是什麼我們不會過問太多我們給行政部門充分的空間是不是以簽訂BTA來當作接下來要求的方向\n\n26\n00:09:19,638 --> 00:09:38,857\n絕對不是一個片面的單方面的做某種程度的改變而已所以所謂談判一定是在某一個基礎上面是所以是不是DTA當作我們爭取的目標您就說是就好了嘛這個問題有這麼難回答嗎這就是談判的一個策略我這樣講好了啦\n\n27\n00:09:40,151 --> 00:10:04,429\n我代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團在國會裡面我大聲的大聲疾呼希望美國把我們當成真正的盟友我們是民主盟友我們的很多高科技的產品我們也希望跟美國那邊的產業產生互補的作用請把台灣當成盟友什麼叫做請把台灣當成盟友\n\n28\n00:10:05,109 --> 00:10:22,709\n我們要追求對等我們要追求互惠這個我都同意這兩個國家之間貿易談判的時候有得有失這個我也同意但是如果把我們當成盟友的話我們最後談成的條件是什麼我希望\n\n29\n00:10:23,590 --> 00:10:51,833\n我也希望我們的政府大力跟美國政府爭取戰友黨做你們最強的後盾做你們最強的後盾去爭取跟美國簽訂BPA如果現在我們已經在最優先的談判的行列國家當中這就是一個善意那兩情相悅的情況底下我覺得我們可以爭取最好的一個對台灣最有利的位置\n\n30\n00:10:52,762 --> 00:11:17,278\n我只希望我們的政府去談的時候大聲幫台灣人說話爭取我們最好的條件剛剛有委員問到說我們願意把關稅在互惠的基礎上面砍到零包括農產品嗎農產品我們有WTO的相關的規定在包括稻米我想這個就是已經既有的規定你覺得現在川普政府的遊戲規則有遵守WTO的規範嗎\n\n31\n00:11:20,814 --> 00:11:40,888\n至少我們願意這樣遵守用這個來做對等的基礎所以我們如果要對等的話就不是什麼他們不遵守我們要遵守嗎現在我在講的是基本的態度跟立場的問題因為中南部非常多的農漁民發出了聲音農業部部長在你旁邊我相信部長都聽到了\n\n32\n00:11:41,650 --> 00:12:08,091\n但是我一樣強調的一件事情農漁民的權益不可以被犧牲剛剛我在質詢的時候我問了一個其實是最關鍵的問題我們願意配合到什麼程度我們能夠爭取到什麼我們手上還有什麼籌碼\n\n33\n00:12:09,694 --> 00:12:30,130\n這個都是全體國人大家非常關心的事情因為他會牽涉到國內產業彼此之間橫貧的問題在這個過程當中院長你贊不贊成整個社會乃至於國會在整個經貿談判的過程當中都應該要能夠扮演一定的角色您贊不贊成\n\n34\n00:12:33,139 --> 00:12:46,612\n國會當然有國會重要的角色就未來我們對產業的支持當然需要國會的支持我講的不是未來對產業的支持喔國家對外貿易的談判事前事中事後都應該要有社會跟國會的參與這個基本的立場院長贊不贊成\n\n35\n00:12:51,468 --> 00:13:18,905\n事前我想剛剛委員也一再尊重行政院談判的策略所以我們能夠報告的我那一天基本上向大家說明一些那現在正在發展當中的隨著情勢我提醒一下喔院長來看一下國家對外的貿易談判事前事中事後都會有國會參與是先進國家的立法例這個是當初小英總統講的\n\n36\n00:13:20,499 --> 00:13:34,463\n這一次您所挑選的經貿談判的代表鄭麗君正副院長也是我之前很好的朋友她也說啦不是只有事後的監督委簽署之前的談判過程就要讓社會參與院長這個態度民進黨還支不支持\n\n37\n00:13:39,335 --> 00:14:02,905\n所以報告委員我那天嘗試就是做這樣的一個溝通讓大家知道我們已經在做什麼的努力我們準備啟動什麼樣的方式但是非超在我的部分我們極力的爭取當我們有進一步的進展需要讓國會進一步的了解支持的時候我們自然要向國會或向社會沒有關係啦因為我現在只剩下一分多鐘一分多鐘我要問最後一個關鍵的問題我只希望民進黨\n\n38\n00:14:04,147 --> 00:14:32,421\n不要忘了當初的理想讓公民社會參與讓國會參與這個都是當初民進黨喔從蔡英文總統就提出來的主張但我最關心的事情是我必須要老實講今天我看到你們所提出來的報告之前我跟部長要衝擊影響評估然後我發函去跟經濟部要中經院的評估報告經濟部不願意給說今天你會做報告所以我一直等\n\n39\n00:14:33,061 --> 00:14:58,386\n我等到今天下午一點半拿到你們書面報告了以後我從頭到尾拜讀讀完了以後大概就是把經濟部那天回函給我的文字再貼上去我就簡單問一件事情是我們現在衝擊影響評估做好了吧現在在投影片上面有很多表格有三個情境一個是現在我們可能願意跟對方談的零關稅\n\n40\n00:14:59,687 --> 00:15:27,602\n另外一個是川普在演了90天我們可能談到的其中一個deal是10%那最後一個是我們最不想要看到的事情是32%那不管是0%的關稅對國內的產業會有很大的衝擊喔10%的關稅也一樣但我今天從您的報告裡面對我關心的這些數字我上面什麼數字也沒有填我為什麼什麼數字也沒有填我找不到答案\n\n41\n00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:38,727\n都在這裡的資料裡面但是這牽扯到產業上一些尚不足以對外宣布的事情我們想以後等到一個事情更定案之後我們再來我再說一次啊店長這些數字啊我剛剛說的都是全體活動的關係\n\n42\n00:15:55,419 --> 00:16:11,112\n我希望什麼時候行政院能夠負責任根據你的做法好謝謝黃國昌委的質詢謝謝主委長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n472\t1673\t蔡議員請準備謝謝院長 麻煩有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選\n35073\t59697\t黃偉豪院長好星期一院長召集朝野各黨團到行政院的時候我當面代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團跟您表示過對台灣民眾黨而言我們一定把國家利益放在第一位謝謝因此當天您願意來立法院報告我們在禮拜二的時候馬上排了第一個案子\n60609\t88995\t第二個當天行政院所交給我們的書面報告裡面提到產業創新條例希望趕快完成三讀台灣民眾黨在禮拜二的時候把他排成第二案但是我們希望當在野黨都有心我們要一起為國家艱難的時刻奮鬥的時候我希望民主進步黨作為一個執政黨禮拜二本來搶卷條例就可以完成二讀跟三讀了\n89741\t114100\t杯葛了一天繼續空轉希望執政黨立院黨團的同仁大家也可以共同努力完成行政院期待的立法院長贊不贊成我希望大院的議事能夠順利的進行先排除一些大家爭議的如果能夠協商那一定很快能夠進入到正常的議事OK 我想禮拜二這個場景大家看了心裡都很痛苦\n115054\t136341\t行政院要慘狀條例三讀我們也願意配合我相信坐在上面的院長禮拜二也很無奈但現在沒辦法了我們試試看下個禮拜五的時候把它完成二讀跟三讀我們一起來努力接下來有關於台美在進行有關於關稅談判的時候我相信是進入了省水區\n137621\t156684\t進入深水區的時候我們從一些基本的問題開始談起院長你認為川普總統要的是什麼他要的是零關稅還是零逆差我認為他是在追求貿易平衡排除不公平包括零逆差以及排除關稅貿易障礙\n157782\t181493\t其實你剛剛講一句話,我不是很贊同你說的是川普總統在追求公平貿易這句話非常說的Diplomatic全世界都在追求但是我要說的是川普總統在爭取的是美國最高的利益從我們的角度上面來講,我必須要說他所提出來的對等關稅其實一點都不對等院長你贊不贊成\n182574\t207492\t因為他的計算公式只有一個公式一個計算產生一個結果對所有的國家都這樣這就是一個相對性的不公平變成相對性的一致性對台灣來講夠不公平我們當然認為我們應該有更好的一個談判的結果你當初第一時間的時候就講了這個所謂的對等關稅有三大不公平行政院表達了行政院的立場我覺得非常好\n208226\t231328\t川普總統站在美國人的立場追求美國的利益我們國家的政府就應該站在台灣人的立場追求台灣人的利益你說了他的公視有非常大的問題我想最近這段時間當中非常多不僅僅是美國的學者甚至是台灣的學者跟評論員大家都提出了相對的批評跟觀察\n232009\t253642\t甚至在美國貿易代表署裡面,他所提出來的計算公式裡面,被引用文獻的學者自己都跳出來了,說川普這個計算公式是錯的。基本上還要再處於4,這是他所引用的文獻的學者所講的。那現在的關鍵是什麼?現在的關鍵是我們要的是什麼?\n259554\t285631\t我們願意付出什麼我們手上還有什麼籌碼院長 接下來在進行跟美國談判的時候啊你覺得台灣要的是什麼我們在計劃跟美國的合作接續過去的台美經貿專業小組以及現在這幾天當中一個禮拜當中持續開會我們當然有列出一些想法策略及應對的一些內容我們願意付出什麼代價\n286786\t309763\t付出什麼代價是因為國際貿易嘛有得有失嘛他希望對美國好一點我們的政府應該希望對台灣好一點嗎策略方面我大概不容易明講變明講但是我們可能付出就是我們必須在關稅對等的這個不是對等關稅喔是雙方面關稅對等的情況之下我們可能要做一些調適而且我們在排除非關稅障礙的\n311544\t337993\t那個非關稅障礙等一下我再進一步請教我們就從你剛剛所講的關稅對等嘛剛剛你說關稅對等不是對等關稅嘛是互相之間的關稅對等互相之間的關稅對等我們來看一下我們的賴總統從林立立開始談嘛他在彭博的投訴講得很清楚啦我們願意在互惠的基礎上面把關稅調到零\n340343\t353528\t這個是他在彭博上面的投書我想我應該沒有誤會啊這樣的意思他說從零關稅談起這是一個談判的態度來來來我唸給你聽啊We are willing to further cut this rate to zero\n354349\t371596\t我們願意把關稅調降到零這個英文沒有那麼難理解啦在互惠的基礎之上現在我的問題就要來了所以我們接下來我們願意把關稅調降到零只要在互惠的基礎之上指的是說如果美國願意調降到零我們也願意調降到零嗎\n372575\t388611\t這是一個基本的態度這是一個基本的態度但是要看對國內的產業的衝擊我們可能這個方面也要列為一個國內產業的衝擊就是我們的政府應該要站在人民的立場去思考的事情剛你講一件事情我基本上是同意是說對於\n390865\t412134\t台灣談判的策略我們一定尊重行政團隊但是現在直接把我們願意做的事情在媒體上面投書的其實是我們的總統他願意展現出一個態度我覺得不必然是壞事但是我今天只想要提醒院長一件非常重要的事情在國際貿易上\n414298\t421365\t我們跟美國之間有得有失但是在國內哪些產業會因此而受益哪些產業會因此而受衝擊\n425936\t446290\t在得失之間怎麼樣去平衡怎麼樣去分配這是一個非常重要的事情我為什麼說這是一個非常重要的事情來我進一步請教我們在追求跟美國之間的是什麼樣子的平等互惠是什麼樣的對等互惠是我們片面配合還是我們會爭取跟美國簽訂BTA\n448598\t465136\t原則上是希望透過雙邊的關係來談到比方說FTA或者是美加莫的USMCA這樣的方式所以啦不管是FTA啦或者是你剛講的基本上就是台美之間的貿易協定嘛\n466296\t488365\t針對台美之間的貿易協定把所有的條件都寫在裡面嘛你們讓什麼 我們讓什麼你們希望我們改善什麼我們希望你們配合什麼我們在21世紀貿易倡議當中也是朝這個方向走但是21世紀貿易倡議有去在這一次美國總統片面的對台灣增加關稅這件事情有扮演什麼角色嗎\n489065\t507737\t沒有啊全體國人看到了就沒有啊我們的確簽了21世紀貿易倡議啊當初有這個倡議國人也很高興啊結果現在看到的是什麼簽了這個SO WHAT當美國總統片面的要對台灣增加關稅的時候我必須要跟院長強調\n509471\t525684\t我再說一次川普站在美國人的立場爭取美國人的利益我沒有話說啦雖然我覺得對台灣不公平對台灣不合理但是我們回到國內的時候國內的團結很重要但是我們也希望什麼我們的政府\n526224\t542025\t一定要站在台灣人的立場爭取台灣最高的利益我相信院長跟我的看法是一模一樣的因此我下一個問題是我們現在到底是要片面配合美方的要求還是我們要爭取跟他簽BTA\n543626\t557334\t這個態度 這個方向很重要具體的底牌是什麼具體的策略是什麼我們不會過問太多我們給行政部門充分的空間是不是以簽訂BTA來當作接下來要求的方向\n559638\t578857\t絕對不是一個片面的單方面的做某種程度的改變而已所以所謂談判一定是在某一個基礎上面是 所以是不是DTA當作我們爭取的目標您就說是就好了嘛這個問題有這麼難回答嗎這就是談判的一個策略我這樣講好了啦\n580151\t604429\t我代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團在國會裡面我大聲的大聲疾呼希望美國把我們當成真正的盟友我們是民主盟友我們的很多高科技的產品我們也希望跟美國那邊的產業產生互補的作用請把台灣當成盟友什麼叫做請把台灣當成盟友\n605109\t622709\t我們要追求對等我們要追求互惠這個我都同意這兩個國家之間貿易談判的時候有得有失這個我也同意但是如果把我們當成盟友的話我們最後談成的條件是什麼我希望\n623590\t651833\t我也希望我們的政府大力跟美國政府爭取戰友黨做你們最強的後盾做你們最強的後盾去爭取跟美國簽訂BPA如果現在我們已經在最優先的談判的行列國家當中這就是一個善意那兩情相悅的情況底下我覺得我們可以爭取最好的一個對台灣最有利的位置\n652762\t677278\t我只希望我們的政府去談的時候大聲幫台灣人說話爭取我們最好的條件剛剛有委員問到說我們願意把關稅在互惠的基礎上面砍到零包括農產品嗎農產品我們有WTO的相關的規定在包括稻米我想這個就是已經既有的規定你覺得現在川普政府的遊戲規則有遵守WTO的規範嗎\n680814\t700888\t至少我們願意這樣遵守用這個來做對等的基礎所以我們如果要對等的話就不是什麼他們不遵守我們要遵守嗎現在我在講的是基本的態度跟立場的問題因為中南部非常多的農漁民發出了聲音農業部部長在你旁邊我相信部長都聽到了\n701650\t728091\t但是我一樣強調的一件事情農漁民的權益不可以被犧牲剛剛我在質詢的時候我問了一個其實是最關鍵的問題我們願意配合到什麼程度我們能夠爭取到什麼我們手上還有什麼籌碼\n729694\t750130\t這個都是全體國人大家非常關心的事情因為他會牽涉到國內產業彼此之間橫貧的問題在這個過程當中院長你贊不贊成整個社會乃至於國會在整個經貿談判的過程當中都應該要能夠扮演一定的角色您贊不贊成\n753139\t766612\t國會當然有國會重要的角色就未來我們對產業的支持當然需要國會的支持我講的不是未來對產業的支持喔國家對外貿易的談判事前事中事後都應該要有社會跟國會的參與這個基本的立場院長贊不贊成\n771468\t798905\t事前我想剛剛委員也一再尊重行政院談判的策略所以我們能夠報告的我那一天基本上向大家說明一些那現在正在發展當中的隨著情勢我提醒一下喔 院長來看一下國家對外的貿易談判事前事中事後都會有國會參與是先進國家的立法例這個是當初小英總統講的\n800499\t814463\t這一次您所挑選的經貿談判的代表鄭麗君正副院長也是我之前很好的朋友她也說啦不是只有事後的監督委簽署之前的談判過程就要讓社會參與院長這個態度民進黨還支不支持\n819335\t842905\t所以報告委員我那天嘗試就是做這樣的一個溝通讓大家知道我們已經在做什麼的努力我們準備啟動什麼樣的方式但是非超在我的部分我們極力的爭取當我們有進一步的進展需要讓國會進一步的了解支持的時候我們自然要向國會或向社會沒有關係啦因為我現在只剩下一分多鐘一分多鐘我要問最後一個關鍵的問題我只希望民進黨\n844147\t872421\t不要忘了當初的理想讓公民社會參與讓國會參與這個都是當初民進黨喔從蔡英文總統就提出來的主張但我最關心的事情是我必須要老實講今天我看到你們所提出來的報告之前我跟部長要衝擊影響評估然後我發函去跟經濟部要中經院的評估報告經濟部不願意給說今天你會做報告所以我一直等\n873061\t898386\t我等到今天下午一點半拿到你們書面報告了以後我從頭到尾拜讀讀完了以後大概就是把經濟部那天回函給我的文字再貼上去我就簡單問一件事情是我們現在衝擊影響評估做好了吧現在在投影片上面有很多表格有三個情境一個是現在我們可能願意跟對方談的零關稅\n899687\t927602\t另外一個是川普在演了90天我們可能談到的其中一個deal是10%那最後一個是我們最不想要看到的事情是32%那不管是0%的關稅對國內的產業會有很大的衝擊喔10%的關稅也一樣但我今天從您的報告裡面對我關心的這些數字我上面什麼數字也沒有填我為什麼什麼數字也沒有填我找不到答案\n929400\t938727\t都在這裡的資料裡面但是這牽扯到產業上一些尚不足以對外宣布的事情我們想以後等到一個事情更定案之後我們再來我再說一次啊 店長這些數字啊我剛剛說的都是全體活動的關係\n955419\t971112\t我希望什麼時候行政院能夠負責任根據你的做法好 謝謝黃國昌委的質詢 謝謝主委長\n","txt":"蔡議員請準備謝謝院長 麻煩有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選\n黃偉豪院長好星期一院長召集朝野各黨團到行政院的時候我當面代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團跟您表示過對台灣民眾黨而言我們一定把國家利益放在第一位謝謝因此當天您願意來立法院報告我們在禮拜二的時候馬上排了第一個案子\n第二個當天行政院所交給我們的書面報告裡面提到產業創新條例希望趕快完成三讀台灣民眾黨在禮拜二的時候把他排成第二案但是我們希望當在野黨都有心我們要一起為國家艱難的時刻奮鬥的時候我希望民主進步黨作為一個執政黨禮拜二本來搶卷條例就可以完成二讀跟三讀了\n杯葛了一天繼續空轉希望執政黨立院黨團的同仁大家也可以共同努力完成行政院期待的立法院長贊不贊成我希望大院的議事能夠順利的進行先排除一些大家爭議的如果能夠協商那一定很快能夠進入到正常的議事OK 我想禮拜二這個場景大家看了心裡都很痛苦\n行政院要慘狀條例三讀我們也願意配合我相信坐在上面的院長禮拜二也很無奈但現在沒辦法了我們試試看下個禮拜五的時候把它完成二讀跟三讀我們一起來努力接下來有關於台美在進行有關於關稅談判的時候我相信是進入了省水區\n進入深水區的時候我們從一些基本的問題開始談起院長你認為川普總統要的是什麼他要的是零關稅還是零逆差我認為他是在追求貿易平衡排除不公平包括零逆差以及排除關稅貿易障礙\n其實你剛剛講一句話,我不是很贊同你說的是川普總統在追求公平貿易這句話非常說的Diplomatic全世界都在追求但是我要說的是川普總統在爭取的是美國最高的利益從我們的角度上面來講,我必須要說他所提出來的對等關稅其實一點都不對等院長你贊不贊成\n因為他的計算公式只有一個公式一個計算產生一個結果對所有的國家都這樣這就是一個相對性的不公平變成相對性的一致性對台灣來講夠不公平我們當然認為我們應該有更好的一個談判的結果你當初第一時間的時候就講了這個所謂的對等關稅有三大不公平行政院表達了行政院的立場我覺得非常好\n川普總統站在美國人的立場追求美國的利益我們國家的政府就應該站在台灣人的立場追求台灣人的利益你說了他的公視有非常大的問題我想最近這段時間當中非常多不僅僅是美國的學者甚至是台灣的學者跟評論員大家都提出了相對的批評跟觀察\n甚至在美國貿易代表署裡面,他所提出來的計算公式裡面,被引用文獻的學者自己都跳出來了,說川普這個計算公式是錯的。基本上還要再處於4,這是他所引用的文獻的學者所講的。那現在的關鍵是什麼?現在的關鍵是我們要的是什麼?\n我們願意付出什麼我們手上還有什麼籌碼院長 接下來在進行跟美國談判的時候啊你覺得台灣要的是什麼我們在計劃跟美國的合作接續過去的台美經貿專業小組以及現在這幾天當中一個禮拜當中持續開會我們當然有列出一些想法策略及應對的一些內容我們願意付出什麼代價\n付出什麼代價是因為國際貿易嘛有得有失嘛他希望對美國好一點我們的政府應該希望對台灣好一點嗎策略方面我大概不容易明講變明講但是我們可能付出就是我們必須在關稅對等的這個不是對等關稅喔是雙方面關稅對等的情況之下我們可能要做一些調適而且我們在排除非關稅障礙的\n那個非關稅障礙等一下我再進一步請教我們就從你剛剛所講的關稅對等嘛剛剛你說關稅對等不是對等關稅嘛是互相之間的關稅對等互相之間的關稅對等我們來看一下我們的賴總統從林立立開始談嘛他在彭博的投訴講得很清楚啦我們願意在互惠的基礎上面把關稅調到零\n這個是他在彭博上面的投書我想我應該沒有誤會啊這樣的意思他說從零關稅談起這是一個談判的態度來來來我唸給你聽啊We are willing to further cut this rate to zero\n我們願意把關稅調降到零這個英文沒有那麼難理解啦在互惠的基礎之上現在我的問題就要來了所以我們接下來我們願意把關稅調降到零只要在互惠的基礎之上指的是說如果美國願意調降到零我們也願意調降到零嗎\n這是一個基本的態度這是一個基本的態度但是要看對國內的產業的衝擊我們可能這個方面也要列為一個國內產業的衝擊就是我們的政府應該要站在人民的立場去思考的事情剛你講一件事情我基本上是同意是說對於\n台灣談判的策略我們一定尊重行政團隊但是現在直接把我們願意做的事情在媒體上面投書的其實是我們的總統他願意展現出一個態度我覺得不必然是壞事但是我今天只想要提醒院長一件非常重要的事情在國際貿易上\n我們跟美國之間有得有失但是在國內哪些產業會因此而受益哪些產業會因此而受衝擊\n在得失之間怎麼樣去平衡怎麼樣去分配這是一個非常重要的事情我為什麼說這是一個非常重要的事情來我進一步請教我們在追求跟美國之間的是什麼樣子的平等互惠是什麼樣的對等互惠是我們片面配合還是我們會爭取跟美國簽訂BTA\n原則上是希望透過雙邊的關係來談到比方說FTA或者是美加莫的USMCA這樣的方式所以啦不管是FTA啦或者是你剛講的基本上就是台美之間的貿易協定嘛\n針對台美之間的貿易協定把所有的條件都寫在裡面嘛你們讓什麼 我們讓什麼你們希望我們改善什麼我們希望你們配合什麼我們在21世紀貿易倡議當中也是朝這個方向走但是21世紀貿易倡議有去在這一次美國總統片面的對台灣增加關稅這件事情有扮演什麼角色嗎\n沒有啊全體國人看到了就沒有啊我們的確簽了21世紀貿易倡議啊當初有這個倡議國人也很高興啊結果現在看到的是什麼簽了這個SO WHAT當美國總統片面的要對台灣增加關稅的時候我必須要跟院長強調\n我再說一次川普站在美國人的立場爭取美國人的利益我沒有話說啦雖然我覺得對台灣不公平對台灣不合理但是我們回到國內的時候國內的團結很重要但是我們也希望什麼我們的政府\n一定要站在台灣人的立場爭取台灣最高的利益我相信院長跟我的看法是一模一樣的因此我下一個問題是我們現在到底是要片面配合美方的要求還是我們要爭取跟他簽BTA\n這個態度 這個方向很重要具體的底牌是什麼具體的策略是什麼我們不會過問太多我們給行政部門充分的空間是不是以簽訂BTA來當作接下來要求的方向\n絕對不是一個片面的單方面的做某種程度的改變而已所以所謂談判一定是在某一個基礎上面是 所以是不是DTA當作我們爭取的目標您就說是就好了嘛這個問題有這麼難回答嗎這就是談判的一個策略我這樣講好了啦\n我代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團在國會裡面我大聲的大聲疾呼希望美國把我們當成真正的盟友我們是民主盟友我們的很多高科技的產品我們也希望跟美國那邊的產業產生互補的作用請把台灣當成盟友什麼叫做請把台灣當成盟友\n我們要追求對等我們要追求互惠這個我都同意這兩個國家之間貿易談判的時候有得有失這個我也同意但是如果把我們當成盟友的話我們最後談成的條件是什麼我希望\n我也希望我們的政府大力跟美國政府爭取戰友黨做你們最強的後盾做你們最強的後盾去爭取跟美國簽訂BPA如果現在我們已經在最優先的談判的行列國家當中這就是一個善意那兩情相悅的情況底下我覺得我們可以爭取最好的一個對台灣最有利的位置\n我只希望我們的政府去談的時候大聲幫台灣人說話爭取我們最好的條件剛剛有委員問到說我們願意把關稅在互惠的基礎上面砍到零包括農產品嗎農產品我們有WTO的相關的規定在包括稻米我想這個就是已經既有的規定你覺得現在川普政府的遊戲規則有遵守WTO的規範嗎\n至少我們願意這樣遵守用這個來做對等的基礎所以我們如果要對等的話就不是什麼他們不遵守我們要遵守嗎現在我在講的是基本的態度跟立場的問題因為中南部非常多的農漁民發出了聲音農業部部長在你旁邊我相信部長都聽到了\n但是我一樣強調的一件事情農漁民的權益不可以被犧牲剛剛我在質詢的時候我問了一個其實是最關鍵的問題我們願意配合到什麼程度我們能夠爭取到什麼我們手上還有什麼籌碼\n這個都是全體國人大家非常關心的事情因為他會牽涉到國內產業彼此之間橫貧的問題在這個過程當中院長你贊不贊成整個社會乃至於國會在整個經貿談判的過程當中都應該要能夠扮演一定的角色您贊不贊成\n國會當然有國會重要的角色就未來我們對產業的支持當然需要國會的支持我講的不是未來對產業的支持喔國家對外貿易的談判事前事中事後都應該要有社會跟國會的參與這個基本的立場院長贊不贊成\n事前我想剛剛委員也一再尊重行政院談判的策略所以我們能夠報告的我那一天基本上向大家說明一些那現在正在發展當中的隨著情勢我提醒一下喔 院長來看一下國家對外的貿易談判事前事中事後都會有國會參與是先進國家的立法例這個是當初小英總統講的\n這一次您所挑選的經貿談判的代表鄭麗君正副院長也是我之前很好的朋友她也說啦不是只有事後的監督委簽署之前的談判過程就要讓社會參與院長這個態度民進黨還支不支持\n所以報告委員我那天嘗試就是做這樣的一個溝通讓大家知道我們已經在做什麼的努力我們準備啟動什麼樣的方式但是非超在我的部分我們極力的爭取當我們有進一步的進展需要讓國會進一步的了解支持的時候我們自然要向國會或向社會沒有關係啦因為我現在只剩下一分多鐘一分多鐘我要問最後一個關鍵的問題我只希望民進黨\n不要忘了當初的理想讓公民社會參與讓國會參與這個都是當初民進黨喔從蔡英文總統就提出來的主張但我最關心的事情是我必須要老實講今天我看到你們所提出來的報告之前我跟部長要衝擊影響評估然後我發函去跟經濟部要中經院的評估報告經濟部不願意給說今天你會做報告所以我一直等\n我等到今天下午一點半拿到你們書面報告了以後我從頭到尾拜讀讀完了以後大概就是把經濟部那天回函給我的文字再貼上去我就簡單問一件事情是我們現在衝擊影響評估做好了吧現在在投影片上面有很多表格有三個情境一個是現在我們可能願意跟對方談的零關稅\n另外一個是川普在演了90天我們可能談到的其中一個deal是10%那最後一個是我們最不想要看到的事情是32%那不管是0%的關稅對國內的產業會有很大的衝擊喔10%的關稅也一樣但我今天從您的報告裡面對我關心的這些數字我上面什麼數字也沒有填我為什麼什麼數字也沒有填我找不到答案\n都在這裡的資料裡面但是這牽扯到產業上一些尚不足以對外宣布的事情我們想以後等到一個事情更定案之後我們再來我再說一次啊 店長這些數字啊我剛剛說的都是全體活動的關係\n我希望什麼時候行政院能夠負責任根據你的做法好 謝謝黃國昌委的質詢 謝謝主委長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.472 --> 00:01.673\n蔡議員請準備謝謝院長麻煩有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選\n\n00:35.073 --> 00:59.697\n黃偉豪院長好星期一院長召集朝野各黨團到行政院的時候我當面代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團跟您表示過對台灣民眾黨而言我們一定把國家利益放在第一位謝謝因此當天您願意來立法院報告我們在禮拜二的時候馬上排了第一個案子\n\n01:00.609 --> 01:28.995\n第二個當天行政院所交給我們的書面報告裡面提到產業創新條例希望趕快完成三讀台灣民眾黨在禮拜二的時候把他排成第二案但是我們希望當在野黨都有心我們要一起為國家艱難的時刻奮鬥的時候我希望民主進步黨作為一個執政黨禮拜二本來搶卷條例就可以完成二讀跟三讀了\n\n01:29.741 --> 01:54.100\n杯葛了一天繼續空轉希望執政黨立院黨團的同仁大家也可以共同努力完成行政院期待的立法院長贊不贊成我希望大院的議事能夠順利的進行先排除一些大家爭議的如果能夠協商那一定很快能夠進入到正常的議事OK我想禮拜二這個場景大家看了心裡都很痛苦\n\n01:55.054 --> 02:16.341\n行政院要慘狀條例三讀我們也願意配合我相信坐在上面的院長禮拜二也很無奈但現在沒辦法了我們試試看下個禮拜五的時候把它完成二讀跟三讀我們一起來努力接下來有關於台美在進行有關於關稅談判的時候我相信是進入了省水區\n\n02:17.621 --> 02:36.684\n進入深水區的時候我們從一些基本的問題開始談起院長你認為川普總統要的是什麼他要的是零關稅還是零逆差我認為他是在追求貿易平衡排除不公平包括零逆差以及排除關稅貿易障礙\n\n02:37.782 --> 03:01.493\n其實你剛剛講一句話,我不是很贊同你說的是川普總統在追求公平貿易這句話非常說的Diplomatic全世界都在追求但是我要說的是川普總統在爭取的是美國最高的利益從我們的角度上面來講,我必須要說他所提出來的對等關稅其實一點都不對等院長你贊不贊成\n\n03:02.574 --> 03:27.492\n因為他的計算公式只有一個公式一個計算產生一個結果對所有的國家都這樣這就是一個相對性的不公平變成相對性的一致性對台灣來講夠不公平我們當然認為我們應該有更好的一個談判的結果你當初第一時間的時候就講了這個所謂的對等關稅有三大不公平行政院表達了行政院的立場我覺得非常好\n\n03:28.226 --> 03:51.328\n川普總統站在美國人的立場追求美國的利益我們國家的政府就應該站在台灣人的立場追求台灣人的利益你說了他的公視有非常大的問題我想最近這段時間當中非常多不僅僅是美國的學者甚至是台灣的學者跟評論員大家都提出了相對的批評跟觀察\n\n03:52.009 --> 04:13.642\n甚至在美國貿易代表署裡面,他所提出來的計算公式裡面,被引用文獻的學者自己都跳出來了,說川普這個計算公式是錯的。基本上還要再處於4,這是他所引用的文獻的學者所講的。那現在的關鍵是什麼?現在的關鍵是我們要的是什麼?\n\n04:19.554 --> 04:45.631\n我們願意付出什麼我們手上還有什麼籌碼院長接下來在進行跟美國談判的時候啊你覺得台灣要的是什麼我們在計劃跟美國的合作接續過去的台美經貿專業小組以及現在這幾天當中一個禮拜當中持續開會我們當然有列出一些想法策略及應對的一些內容我們願意付出什麼代價\n\n04:46.786 --> 05:09.763\n付出什麼代價是因為國際貿易嘛有得有失嘛他希望對美國好一點我們的政府應該希望對台灣好一點嗎策略方面我大概不容易明講變明講但是我們可能付出就是我們必須在關稅對等的這個不是對等關稅喔是雙方面關稅對等的情況之下我們可能要做一些調適而且我們在排除非關稅障礙的\n\n05:11.544 --> 05:37.993\n那個非關稅障礙等一下我再進一步請教我們就從你剛剛所講的關稅對等嘛剛剛你說關稅對等不是對等關稅嘛是互相之間的關稅對等互相之間的關稅對等我們來看一下我們的賴總統從林立立開始談嘛他在彭博的投訴講得很清楚啦我們願意在互惠的基礎上面把關稅調到零\n\n05:40.343 --> 05:53.528\n這個是他在彭博上面的投書我想我應該沒有誤會啊這樣的意思他說從零關稅談起這是一個談判的態度來來來我唸給你聽啊Wearewillingtofurthercutthisratetozero\n\n05:54.349 --> 06:11.596\n我們願意把關稅調降到零這個英文沒有那麼難理解啦在互惠的基礎之上現在我的問題就要來了所以我們接下來我們願意把關稅調降到零只要在互惠的基礎之上指的是說如果美國願意調降到零我們也願意調降到零嗎\n\n06:12.575 --> 06:28.611\n這是一個基本的態度這是一個基本的態度但是要看對國內的產業的衝擊我們可能這個方面也要列為一個國內產業的衝擊就是我們的政府應該要站在人民的立場去思考的事情剛你講一件事情我基本上是同意是說對於\n\n06:30.865 --> 06:52.134\n台灣談判的策略我們一定尊重行政團隊但是現在直接把我們願意做的事情在媒體上面投書的其實是我們的總統他願意展現出一個態度我覺得不必然是壞事但是我今天只想要提醒院長一件非常重要的事情在國際貿易上\n\n06:54.298 --> 07:01.365\n我們跟美國之間有得有失但是在國內哪些產業會因此而受益哪些產業會因此而受衝擊\n\n07:05.936 --> 07:26.290\n在得失之間怎麼樣去平衡怎麼樣去分配這是一個非常重要的事情我為什麼說這是一個非常重要的事情來我進一步請教我們在追求跟美國之間的是什麼樣子的平等互惠是什麼樣的對等互惠是我們片面配合還是我們會爭取跟美國簽訂BTA\n\n07:28.598 --> 07:45.136\n原則上是希望透過雙邊的關係來談到比方說FTA或者是美加莫的USMCA這樣的方式所以啦不管是FTA啦或者是你剛講的基本上就是台美之間的貿易協定嘛\n\n07:46.296 --> 08:08.365\n針對台美之間的貿易協定把所有的條件都寫在裡面嘛你們讓什麼我們讓什麼你們希望我們改善什麼我們希望你們配合什麼我們在21世紀貿易倡議當中也是朝這個方向走但是21世紀貿易倡議有去在這一次美國總統片面的對台灣增加關稅這件事情有扮演什麼角色嗎\n\n08:09.065 --> 08:27.737\n沒有啊全體國人看到了就沒有啊我們的確簽了21世紀貿易倡議啊當初有這個倡議國人也很高興啊結果現在看到的是什麼簽了這個SOWHAT當美國總統片面的要對台灣增加關稅的時候我必須要跟院長強調\n\n08:29.471 --> 08:45.684\n我再說一次川普站在美國人的立場爭取美國人的利益我沒有話說啦雖然我覺得對台灣不公平對台灣不合理但是我們回到國內的時候國內的團結很重要但是我們也希望什麼我們的政府\n\n08:46.224 --> 09:02.025\n一定要站在台灣人的立場爭取台灣最高的利益我相信院長跟我的看法是一模一樣的因此我下一個問題是我們現在到底是要片面配合美方的要求還是我們要爭取跟他簽BTA\n\n09:03.626 --> 09:17.334\n這個態度這個方向很重要具體的底牌是什麼具體的策略是什麼我們不會過問太多我們給行政部門充分的空間是不是以簽訂BTA來當作接下來要求的方向\n\n09:19.638 --> 09:38.857\n絕對不是一個片面的單方面的做某種程度的改變而已所以所謂談判一定是在某一個基礎上面是所以是不是DTA當作我們爭取的目標您就說是就好了嘛這個問題有這麼難回答嗎這就是談判的一個策略我這樣講好了啦\n\n09:40.151 --> 10:04.429\n我代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團在國會裡面我大聲的大聲疾呼希望美國把我們當成真正的盟友我們是民主盟友我們的很多高科技的產品我們也希望跟美國那邊的產業產生互補的作用請把台灣當成盟友什麼叫做請把台灣當成盟友\n\n10:05.109 --> 10:22.709\n我們要追求對等我們要追求互惠這個我都同意這兩個國家之間貿易談判的時候有得有失這個我也同意但是如果把我們當成盟友的話我們最後談成的條件是什麼我希望\n\n10:23.590 --> 10:51.833\n我也希望我們的政府大力跟美國政府爭取戰友黨做你們最強的後盾做你們最強的後盾去爭取跟美國簽訂BPA如果現在我們已經在最優先的談判的行列國家當中這就是一個善意那兩情相悅的情況底下我覺得我們可以爭取最好的一個對台灣最有利的位置\n\n10:52.762 --> 11:17.278\n我只希望我們的政府去談的時候大聲幫台灣人說話爭取我們最好的條件剛剛有委員問到說我們願意把關稅在互惠的基礎上面砍到零包括農產品嗎農產品我們有WTO的相關的規定在包括稻米我想這個就是已經既有的規定你覺得現在川普政府的遊戲規則有遵守WTO的規範嗎\n\n11:20.814 --> 11:40.888\n至少我們願意這樣遵守用這個來做對等的基礎所以我們如果要對等的話就不是什麼他們不遵守我們要遵守嗎現在我在講的是基本的態度跟立場的問題因為中南部非常多的農漁民發出了聲音農業部部長在你旁邊我相信部長都聽到了\n\n11:41.650 --> 12:08.091\n但是我一樣強調的一件事情農漁民的權益不可以被犧牲剛剛我在質詢的時候我問了一個其實是最關鍵的問題我們願意配合到什麼程度我們能夠爭取到什麼我們手上還有什麼籌碼\n\n12:09.694 --> 12:30.130\n這個都是全體國人大家非常關心的事情因為他會牽涉到國內產業彼此之間橫貧的問題在這個過程當中院長你贊不贊成整個社會乃至於國會在整個經貿談判的過程當中都應該要能夠扮演一定的角色您贊不贊成\n\n12:33.139 --> 12:46.612\n國會當然有國會重要的角色就未來我們對產業的支持當然需要國會的支持我講的不是未來對產業的支持喔國家對外貿易的談判事前事中事後都應該要有社會跟國會的參與這個基本的立場院長贊不贊成\n\n12:51.468 --> 13:18.905\n事前我想剛剛委員也一再尊重行政院談判的策略所以我們能夠報告的我那一天基本上向大家說明一些那現在正在發展當中的隨著情勢我提醒一下喔院長來看一下國家對外的貿易談判事前事中事後都會有國會參與是先進國家的立法例這個是當初小英總統講的\n\n13:20.499 --> 13:34.463\n這一次您所挑選的經貿談判的代表鄭麗君正副院長也是我之前很好的朋友她也說啦不是只有事後的監督委簽署之前的談判過程就要讓社會參與院長這個態度民進黨還支不支持\n\n13:39.335 --> 14:02.905\n所以報告委員我那天嘗試就是做這樣的一個溝通讓大家知道我們已經在做什麼的努力我們準備啟動什麼樣的方式但是非超在我的部分我們極力的爭取當我們有進一步的進展需要讓國會進一步的了解支持的時候我們自然要向國會或向社會沒有關係啦因為我現在只剩下一分多鐘一分多鐘我要問最後一個關鍵的問題我只希望民進黨\n\n14:04.147 --> 14:32.421\n不要忘了當初的理想讓公民社會參與讓國會參與這個都是當初民進黨喔從蔡英文總統就提出來的主張但我最關心的事情是我必須要老實講今天我看到你們所提出來的報告之前我跟部長要衝擊影響評估然後我發函去跟經濟部要中經院的評估報告經濟部不願意給說今天你會做報告所以我一直等\n\n14:33.061 --> 14:58.386\n我等到今天下午一點半拿到你們書面報告了以後我從頭到尾拜讀讀完了以後大概就是把經濟部那天回函給我的文字再貼上去我就簡單問一件事情是我們現在衝擊影響評估做好了吧現在在投影片上面有很多表格有三個情境一個是現在我們可能願意跟對方談的零關稅\n\n14:59.687 --> 15:27.602\n另外一個是川普在演了90天我們可能談到的其中一個deal是10%那最後一個是我們最不想要看到的事情是32%那不管是0%的關稅對國內的產業會有很大的衝擊喔10%的關稅也一樣但我今天從您的報告裡面對我關心的這些數字我上面什麼數字也沒有填我為什麼什麼數字也沒有填我找不到答案\n\n15:29.400 --> 15:38.727\n都在這裡的資料裡面但是這牽扯到產業上一些尚不足以對外宣布的事情我們想以後等到一個事情更定案之後我們再來我再說一次啊店長這些數字啊我剛剛說的都是全體活動的關係\n\n15:55.419 --> 16:11.112\n我希望什麼時候行政院能夠負責任根據你的做法好謝謝黃國昌委的質詢謝謝主委長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.472,"end":1.673,"text":"蔡議員請準備謝謝院長 麻煩有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選"},{"start":35.073,"end":59.697,"text":"黃偉豪院長好星期一院長召集朝野各黨團到行政院的時候我當面代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團跟您表示過對台灣民眾黨而言我們一定把國家利益放在第一位謝謝因此當天您願意來立法院報告我們在禮拜二的時候馬上排了第一個案子"},{"start":60.609,"end":88.995,"text":"第二個當天行政院所交給我們的書面報告裡面提到產業創新條例希望趕快完成三讀台灣民眾黨在禮拜二的時候把他排成第二案但是我們希望當在野黨都有心我們要一起為國家艱難的時刻奮鬥的時候我希望民主進步黨作為一個執政黨禮拜二本來搶卷條例就可以完成二讀跟三讀了"},{"start":89.741,"end":114.1,"text":"杯葛了一天繼續空轉希望執政黨立院黨團的同仁大家也可以共同努力完成行政院期待的立法院長贊不贊成我希望大院的議事能夠順利的進行先排除一些大家爭議的如果能夠協商那一定很快能夠進入到正常的議事OK 我想禮拜二這個場景大家看了心裡都很痛苦"},{"start":115.054,"end":136.341,"text":"行政院要慘狀條例三讀我們也願意配合我相信坐在上面的院長禮拜二也很無奈但現在沒辦法了我們試試看下個禮拜五的時候把它完成二讀跟三讀我們一起來努力接下來有關於台美在進行有關於關稅談判的時候我相信是進入了省水區"},{"start":137.621,"end":156.684,"text":"進入深水區的時候我們從一些基本的問題開始談起院長你認為川普總統要的是什麼他要的是零關稅還是零逆差我認為他是在追求貿易平衡排除不公平包括零逆差以及排除關稅貿易障礙"},{"start":157.782,"end":181.493,"text":"其實你剛剛講一句話,我不是很贊同你說的是川普總統在追求公平貿易這句話非常說的Diplomatic全世界都在追求但是我要說的是川普總統在爭取的是美國最高的利益從我們的角度上面來講,我必須要說他所提出來的對等關稅其實一點都不對等院長你贊不贊成"},{"start":182.574,"end":207.492,"text":"因為他的計算公式只有一個公式一個計算產生一個結果對所有的國家都這樣這就是一個相對性的不公平變成相對性的一致性對台灣來講夠不公平我們當然認為我們應該有更好的一個談判的結果你當初第一時間的時候就講了這個所謂的對等關稅有三大不公平行政院表達了行政院的立場我覺得非常好"},{"start":208.226,"end":231.328,"text":"川普總統站在美國人的立場追求美國的利益我們國家的政府就應該站在台灣人的立場追求台灣人的利益你說了他的公視有非常大的問題我想最近這段時間當中非常多不僅僅是美國的學者甚至是台灣的學者跟評論員大家都提出了相對的批評跟觀察"},{"start":232.009,"end":253.642,"text":"甚至在美國貿易代表署裡面,他所提出來的計算公式裡面,被引用文獻的學者自己都跳出來了,說川普這個計算公式是錯的。基本上還要再處於4,這是他所引用的文獻的學者所講的。那現在的關鍵是什麼?現在的關鍵是我們要的是什麼?"},{"start":259.554,"end":285.631,"text":"我們願意付出什麼我們手上還有什麼籌碼院長 接下來在進行跟美國談判的時候啊你覺得台灣要的是什麼我們在計劃跟美國的合作接續過去的台美經貿專業小組以及現在這幾天當中一個禮拜當中持續開會我們當然有列出一些想法策略及應對的一些內容我們願意付出什麼代價"},{"start":286.786,"end":309.763,"text":"付出什麼代價是因為國際貿易嘛有得有失嘛他希望對美國好一點我們的政府應該希望對台灣好一點嗎策略方面我大概不容易明講變明講但是我們可能付出就是我們必須在關稅對等的這個不是對等關稅喔是雙方面關稅對等的情況之下我們可能要做一些調適而且我們在排除非關稅障礙的"},{"start":311.544,"end":337.993,"text":"那個非關稅障礙等一下我再進一步請教我們就從你剛剛所講的關稅對等嘛剛剛你說關稅對等不是對等關稅嘛是互相之間的關稅對等互相之間的關稅對等我們來看一下我們的賴總統從林立立開始談嘛他在彭博的投訴講得很清楚啦我們願意在互惠的基礎上面把關稅調到零"},{"start":340.343,"end":353.528,"text":"這個是他在彭博上面的投書我想我應該沒有誤會啊這樣的意思他說從零關稅談起這是一個談判的態度來來來我唸給你聽啊We are willing to further cut this rate to zero"},{"start":354.349,"end":371.596,"text":"我們願意把關稅調降到零這個英文沒有那麼難理解啦在互惠的基礎之上現在我的問題就要來了所以我們接下來我們願意把關稅調降到零只要在互惠的基礎之上指的是說如果美國願意調降到零我們也願意調降到零嗎"},{"start":372.575,"end":388.611,"text":"這是一個基本的態度這是一個基本的態度但是要看對國內的產業的衝擊我們可能這個方面也要列為一個國內產業的衝擊就是我們的政府應該要站在人民的立場去思考的事情剛你講一件事情我基本上是同意是說對於"},{"start":390.865,"end":412.134,"text":"台灣談判的策略我們一定尊重行政團隊但是現在直接把我們願意做的事情在媒體上面投書的其實是我們的總統他願意展現出一個態度我覺得不必然是壞事但是我今天只想要提醒院長一件非常重要的事情在國際貿易上"},{"start":414.298,"end":421.365,"text":"我們跟美國之間有得有失但是在國內哪些產業會因此而受益哪些產業會因此而受衝擊"},{"start":425.936,"end":446.29,"text":"在得失之間怎麼樣去平衡怎麼樣去分配這是一個非常重要的事情我為什麼說這是一個非常重要的事情來我進一步請教我們在追求跟美國之間的是什麼樣子的平等互惠是什麼樣的對等互惠是我們片面配合還是我們會爭取跟美國簽訂BTA"},{"start":448.598,"end":465.136,"text":"原則上是希望透過雙邊的關係來談到比方說FTA或者是美加莫的USMCA這樣的方式所以啦不管是FTA啦或者是你剛講的基本上就是台美之間的貿易協定嘛"},{"start":466.296,"end":488.365,"text":"針對台美之間的貿易協定把所有的條件都寫在裡面嘛你們讓什麼 我們讓什麼你們希望我們改善什麼我們希望你們配合什麼我們在21世紀貿易倡議當中也是朝這個方向走但是21世紀貿易倡議有去在這一次美國總統片面的對台灣增加關稅這件事情有扮演什麼角色嗎"},{"start":489.065,"end":507.737,"text":"沒有啊全體國人看到了就沒有啊我們的確簽了21世紀貿易倡議啊當初有這個倡議國人也很高興啊結果現在看到的是什麼簽了這個SO WHAT當美國總統片面的要對台灣增加關稅的時候我必須要跟院長強調"},{"start":509.471,"end":525.684,"text":"我再說一次川普站在美國人的立場爭取美國人的利益我沒有話說啦雖然我覺得對台灣不公平對台灣不合理但是我們回到國內的時候國內的團結很重要但是我們也希望什麼我們的政府"},{"start":526.224,"end":542.025,"text":"一定要站在台灣人的立場爭取台灣最高的利益我相信院長跟我的看法是一模一樣的因此我下一個問題是我們現在到底是要片面配合美方的要求還是我們要爭取跟他簽BTA"},{"start":543.626,"end":557.334,"text":"這個態度 這個方向很重要具體的底牌是什麼具體的策略是什麼我們不會過問太多我們給行政部門充分的空間是不是以簽訂BTA來當作接下來要求的方向"},{"start":559.638,"end":578.857,"text":"絕對不是一個片面的單方面的做某種程度的改變而已所以所謂談判一定是在某一個基礎上面是 所以是不是DTA當作我們爭取的目標您就說是就好了嘛這個問題有這麼難回答嗎這就是談判的一個策略我這樣講好了啦"},{"start":580.151,"end":604.429,"text":"我代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團在國會裡面我大聲的大聲疾呼希望美國把我們當成真正的盟友我們是民主盟友我們的很多高科技的產品我們也希望跟美國那邊的產業產生互補的作用請把台灣當成盟友什麼叫做請把台灣當成盟友"},{"start":605.109,"end":622.709,"text":"我們要追求對等我們要追求互惠這個我都同意這兩個國家之間貿易談判的時候有得有失這個我也同意但是如果把我們當成盟友的話我們最後談成的條件是什麼我希望"},{"start":623.59,"end":651.833,"text":"我也希望我們的政府大力跟美國政府爭取戰友黨做你們最強的後盾做你們最強的後盾去爭取跟美國簽訂BPA如果現在我們已經在最優先的談判的行列國家當中這就是一個善意那兩情相悅的情況底下我覺得我們可以爭取最好的一個對台灣最有利的位置"},{"start":652.762,"end":677.278,"text":"我只希望我們的政府去談的時候大聲幫台灣人說話爭取我們最好的條件剛剛有委員問到說我們願意把關稅在互惠的基礎上面砍到零包括農產品嗎農產品我們有WTO的相關的規定在包括稻米我想這個就是已經既有的規定你覺得現在川普政府的遊戲規則有遵守WTO的規範嗎"},{"start":680.814,"end":700.888,"text":"至少我們願意這樣遵守用這個來做對等的基礎所以我們如果要對等的話就不是什麼他們不遵守我們要遵守嗎現在我在講的是基本的態度跟立場的問題因為中南部非常多的農漁民發出了聲音農業部部長在你旁邊我相信部長都聽到了"},{"start":701.65,"end":728.091,"text":"但是我一樣強調的一件事情農漁民的權益不可以被犧牲剛剛我在質詢的時候我問了一個其實是最關鍵的問題我們願意配合到什麼程度我們能夠爭取到什麼我們手上還有什麼籌碼"},{"start":729.694,"end":750.13,"text":"這個都是全體國人大家非常關心的事情因為他會牽涉到國內產業彼此之間橫貧的問題在這個過程當中院長你贊不贊成整個社會乃至於國會在整個經貿談判的過程當中都應該要能夠扮演一定的角色您贊不贊成"},{"start":753.139,"end":766.612,"text":"國會當然有國會重要的角色就未來我們對產業的支持當然需要國會的支持我講的不是未來對產業的支持喔國家對外貿易的談判事前事中事後都應該要有社會跟國會的參與這個基本的立場院長贊不贊成"},{"start":771.468,"end":798.905,"text":"事前我想剛剛委員也一再尊重行政院談判的策略所以我們能夠報告的我那一天基本上向大家說明一些那現在正在發展當中的隨著情勢我提醒一下喔 院長來看一下國家對外的貿易談判事前事中事後都會有國會參與是先進國家的立法例這個是當初小英總統講的"},{"start":800.499,"end":814.463,"text":"這一次您所挑選的經貿談判的代表鄭麗君正副院長也是我之前很好的朋友她也說啦不是只有事後的監督委簽署之前的談判過程就要讓社會參與院長這個態度民進黨還支不支持"},{"start":819.335,"end":842.905,"text":"所以報告委員我那天嘗試就是做這樣的一個溝通讓大家知道我們已經在做什麼的努力我們準備啟動什麼樣的方式但是非超在我的部分我們極力的爭取當我們有進一步的進展需要讓國會進一步的了解支持的時候我們自然要向國會或向社會沒有關係啦因為我現在只剩下一分多鐘一分多鐘我要問最後一個關鍵的問題我只希望民進黨"},{"start":844.147,"end":872.421,"text":"不要忘了當初的理想讓公民社會參與讓國會參與這個都是當初民進黨喔從蔡英文總統就提出來的主張但我最關心的事情是我必須要老實講今天我看到你們所提出來的報告之前我跟部長要衝擊影響評估然後我發函去跟經濟部要中經院的評估報告經濟部不願意給說今天你會做報告所以我一直等"},{"start":873.061,"end":898.386,"text":"我等到今天下午一點半拿到你們書面報告了以後我從頭到尾拜讀讀完了以後大概就是把經濟部那天回函給我的文字再貼上去我就簡單問一件事情是我們現在衝擊影響評估做好了吧現在在投影片上面有很多表格有三個情境一個是現在我們可能願意跟對方談的零關稅"},{"start":899.687,"end":927.602,"text":"另外一個是川普在演了90天我們可能談到的其中一個deal是10%那最後一個是我們最不想要看到的事情是32%那不管是0%的關稅對國內的產業會有很大的衝擊喔10%的關稅也一樣但我今天從您的報告裡面對我關心的這些數字我上面什麼數字也沒有填我為什麼什麼數字也沒有填我找不到答案"},{"start":929.4,"end":938.727,"text":"都在這裡的資料裡面但是這牽扯到產業上一些尚不足以對外宣布的事情我們想以後等到一個事情更定案之後我們再來我再說一次啊 店長這些數字啊我剛剛說的都是全體活動的關係"},{"start":955.419,"end":971.112,"text":"我希望什麼時候行政院能夠負責任根據你的做法好 謝謝黃國昌委的質詢 謝謝主委長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":677,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（15時18分）謝謝院長，麻煩有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：院長好。星期一院長召集朝野各黨團到行政院的時候，我當面代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團跟您表示過，對台灣民眾黨而言，我們一定會把國家利益放在第一位。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：因此，當天您表示願意來立法院報告，我們在禮拜二的時候馬上排了第一個案子。第二個，當天行政院所交給我們的書面報告裡面提到，希望產業創新條例能趕快完成三讀，台灣民眾黨在禮拜二的時候把它排成第二案。但是當在野黨都有心，要一起為國家艱難時刻奮鬥的時候，民主進步黨作為一個執政黨，本來禮拜二產創條例就可以完成二讀跟三讀，結果被杯葛了一天，繼續空轉。我希望執政黨立院黨團的同仁大家也可以共同努力，完成行政院期待的立法，院長贊不贊成？"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望大院的議事能夠順利的進行，先排除一些大家爭議的，如果能夠協商，一定能夠很快進入到正常的議事。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，我想禮拜二這個場景，大家看了心裡都很痛苦，行政院要產創條例三讀，我們也願意配合，我相信坐在上面的院長禮拜二也很無奈，但現在沒辦法了，我們試試看下個禮拜五完成二讀跟三讀，我們一起來努力。","接下來，有關臺美在進行關稅談判的時候，我相信是進入了深水區，進入深水區的時候，我們從一些基本的問題開始談起。院長，你認為川普總統要的是什麼？他要的是零關稅，還是零逆差？"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為他是在追求貿易平衡，排除不公平，包括零逆差以及排除關稅貿易障礙。"],["黃委員國昌：其實您剛剛講的一句話，我不是很贊同，你說的是川普總統在追求公平貿易，這句話說得非常diplomatic。"],["卓院長榮泰：全世界都在追求。"],["黃委員國昌：對，但我要說的是，川普總統在爭取的是美國最高的利益，從我們的角度上面來講，我必須要說，他所提出來的對等關稅，其實一點都不對等。院長，你贊不贊成？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為他的計算公式只有一個公式、一個計算，產生一個結果，對所有的國家都這樣，這就是相對性的不公平，變成相對性的一致性。"],["黃委員國昌：對臺灣來講，公不公平？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們當然認為我們應該要有更好的談判結果。"],["黃委員國昌：是啊！你當初第一時間就講了，所謂的對等關稅有三大不公平，行政院表達了行政院的立場，我覺得非常好。川普總統站在美國人的立場，追求美國的利益；我們國家的政府就應該站在臺灣人的立場，追求臺灣人的利益。你說了他的公式有非常大的問題，我想最近這段時間當中有非常多，不僅僅是美國的學者，甚至是臺灣的學者跟評論員，大家都提出了相對的批評跟觀察。甚至美國貿易代表署所提出的計算公式，被引用文獻的學者自己都跳出來了，說川普這個計算公式是錯的，基本上還要再除以4，這是他所引用文獻的學者所講的。"],["卓院長榮泰：有一個4的係數。"],["黃委員國昌：是。現在的關鍵是什麼？現在的關鍵是我們要的是什麼，我們願意付出什麼，我們手上還有什麼籌碼。接下來在進行跟美國談判的時候，你覺得臺灣要的是什麼？強化跟美國的合作？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們接續過去的臺美經貿工作專案小組以及這一個禮拜當中持續開會，我們當然有列出一些想法、策略及應對的內容。"],["黃委員國昌：我們願意付出什麼代價？"],["卓院長榮泰：付出什麼代價？"],["黃委員國昌：是，因為國際貿易有得有失，他希望對美國好一點，我們的政府應該希望對臺灣好一點嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：策略方面，我大概不容易明講，也不便明講，但我們可能付出的是，我們必須在關稅對等的情形下，不是對等關稅，而是在雙方面關稅對等的情況底下，我們可能要做一些調適，而且我們在排除非關稅障礙……"],["黃委員國昌：等一下我再進一步請教非關稅障礙。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["黃委員國昌：我們就從你剛剛所講的關稅對等，剛剛你說關稅對等，不是對等關稅嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是互相之間的關稅對等，不是一個數字。"],["黃委員國昌：互相之間的關稅對等，我們來看一下，賴總統說從零稅率開始談，他在彭博的投書講得很清楚，我們願意在互惠的基礎上把關稅調到零，這是他在彭博的投書，我想我應該沒有誤會這樣的意思。"],["卓院長榮泰：他說從零關稅談起，這是一個談判的態度。"],["黃委員國昌：我唸給你聽，「we are willing to further cut this rate to zero」，即我們願意把關稅調降到零，這個英文沒有那麼難理解，在互惠的基礎之上。現在我的問題就來了，所以接下來我們願意把關稅調降到零，只要在互惠的基礎之上指的是如果美國願意調降到零，我們也願意調降到零嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是一個基本的態度。"],["黃委員國昌：這是一個基本的態度？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是要看對國內產業的衝擊，我們可能這個方面要列為一個……"],["黃委員國昌：國內產業的衝擊就是我們的政府應該要站在人民的立場去思考的事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯！"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛你講一件事情，我基本上是同意，對於臺灣談判的策略，我們一定尊重行政團隊。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：但是現在直接把我們願意做的事情，在媒體上面投書的其實是我們的總統，他願意展現出一個態度，我覺得不必然是壞事，但是我今天只想要提醒院長一件非常重要的事情，在國際貿易上，我們跟美國之間有得有失，但是在國內哪些產業會因此而受益、哪些產業會因此而受衝擊？在得失之間怎麼樣去平衡、怎麼樣去分配？這是一個非常重要的事情。我為什麼說這是一個非常重要的事情？我進一步請教，我們在追求跟美國之間的是什麼樣子的平等互惠？是我們片面配合，還是我們會爭取跟美國簽訂BTA？"],["卓院長榮泰：原則上是希望透過雙邊的關係來談到比方說FTA……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，你講的雙邊的關係是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：比方說FTA或者是美加墨的USMCA這樣的方式……"],["黃委員國昌：所以不管是FTA或者是你剛剛講的，基本上就臺美之間的貿易協定嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["黃委員國昌：針對臺美之間的貿易協定，把所有條件都寫在裡面，你們讓什麼、我們讓什麼，你們希望我們改善什麼、我們希望你們配合什麼。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在21世紀貿易倡議當中也是朝這個方向，它是分階段……"],["黃委員國昌：是啊，但是21世紀貿易倡議有在這一次美國總統片面對臺灣增加關稅這件事情扮演什麼角色嗎？沒有啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：因為它……"],["黃委員國昌：全體國人看到的就沒有啊！我們的確簽了21世紀貿易倡議，當初有這個倡議，國人也很高興啊，結果現在看到的是什麼？簽了這個，so what？當美國總統片面的要對臺灣增加關稅的時候，我必須要跟院長強調，我再說一次，川普站在美國人的立場爭取美國人的利益，我沒有話說啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：雖然我覺得對臺灣不公平、對臺灣不合理，但是我們回到國內的時候，國內的團結很重要，但是我們也希望什麼？我們的政府一定要站在臺灣人的立場，爭取臺灣最高的利益，我相信院長跟我的看法是一模一樣的。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會站在這樣的立場。"],["黃委員國昌：因此，我下一個問題是，我們現在到底是要片面配合美方的要求，還是我們要爭取跟它簽BTA？這個態度、這個方向很重要，具體的底牌是什麼、具體的策略是什麼，我們不會過問太多。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我們給行政部門充分的空間，是不是以簽訂BTA來當作接下來要求的方向？"],["卓院長榮泰：絕對不是一個片面的、單方面做某種程度的改變而已，所謂談判一定是在某一個基礎上面，大家有進有退、有得有失……"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以是不是以BTA當作我們爭取的目標？你說是就好了嘛！這個問題有這麼難回答嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這就是談判的一個策略。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了啦，我代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團在國會裡面大聲疾呼，希望美國把我們當成真正的盟友，我們是民主盟友，我們有很多高科技的產品，也希望跟美國那邊的產業產生互補作用，請把臺灣當成盟友。什麼叫做請把臺灣當成盟友？我們要追求對等、我們要追求互惠，這個我都同意，這兩個國家之間貿易談判的時候有得有失，這個我也同意，但是如果把我們當成盟友的話，我們最後談成的條件是什麼？我希望、我希望！我也希望我們的政府大力跟美國政府爭取，在野黨做你們最強的後盾、做你們最強的後盾！去爭取跟美國簽訂BTA。剛剛……"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，現在我們已經在最優先的談判行列國家當中……"],["黃委員國昌：這我知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為這就是一個善意，在兩情相悅的情況底下，我覺得我們可以爭取最好的、對臺灣最有利的一個位置。"],["黃委員國昌：我只希望我們的政府去談的時候，大聲幫臺灣人說話，爭取我們最好的條件。剛剛有委員問到說，我們願意把關稅在互惠的基礎上面砍到零，包括農產品嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：農產品我們有WTO的相關規定在，包括稻米，我想這個就是既有的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得現在川普政府的遊戲規則有遵守WTO的規範嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：至少我們願意這樣遵守，用這個來做談判的基礎。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！所以我們如果要對等的話，就不是他們不遵守而我們要遵守嘛！現在我在講的是基本的態度跟立場的問題，因為中南部非常多的農漁民發出了聲音，農業部部長在你旁邊，我相信部長都聽到了，但是我一樣強調一件事情，農漁民的權益不可以被犧牲！剛剛我在質詢的時候問了一個最關鍵的問題：我們願意配合到什麼程度？我們能夠爭取到什麼？我們手上還有什麼籌碼？這些都是全體國人非常關心的事情，因為它會牽涉到國內產業彼此之間衡平的問題。在這個過程當中，請問院長你贊不贊成整個社會乃至於國會在整個經貿談判的過程當中，都應該要能夠扮演一定的角色？您贊不贊成？"],["卓院長榮泰：國會當然有國會重要的角色，就未來我們對產業的支持，當然需要國會的支持。"],["黃委員國昌：我講的不是未來對產業的支持，而是國家對外的貿易談判，在事前、事中、事後都應該要有社會和國會的參與，這個基本的立場，院長贊不贊成？"],["卓院長榮泰：關於事前，我想剛剛委員也一再說尊重行政院談判的策略，所以我們能夠報告的，我那一天基本上也向大家說明了一些，至於現在正在發展當中的，隨著情勢演變……"],["黃委員國昌：我提醒一下院長，我們來看一下投影片，國家對外的貿易談判，事前、事中、事後都會有國會參與是先進國家的立法例，這是當初小英總統講的。這一次您所挑選的經貿談判代表鄭麗君副院長，也是我之前很好的朋友，他也說了：不是只有事後的監督，簽署之前的談判過程就要讓社會參與。院長，這個態度民進黨還支不支持？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，所以我那天就是嘗試做這樣的溝通，讓大家知道我們已經在做什麼努力、我們準備啟動什麼樣的方式，非操之在我的部分，我們極力的爭取，當我們有進一步的進展，需要讓國會進一步了解、支持的時候，我們自然要向國會或向社會大眾……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦，因為我現在只剩下一分多鐘，我要問最後一個關鍵的問題，我只希望民進黨不要忘了當初的理想……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["黃委員國昌：讓公民社會參與，讓國會參與，這個都是當初民進黨從蔡英文總統就提出來的主張。但我最關心的事情是，我必須要老實講，今天我看到你們所提出來的報告，之前我跟部長要衝擊影響評估，然後我發函去跟經濟部要中經院的評估報告，經濟部不願意給，說今天你會做報告，所以我一直等。我等到今天下午1點半拿到你們的書面報告以後，我從頭到尾拜讀，讀完了以後，發現你們大概就是把經濟部那天回函給我的文字再貼上去。我就簡單問一件事情：我們現在衝擊影響評估做好了嗎？現在在投影片上面有很多表格，總共有三個情境：一個是現在我們可能願意跟對方談的零關稅；另外一個是川普暫延了90天，我們可能談到的其中一個deal是10%；最後一個是我們最不想要看到的32%。不管是0%的關稅對國內的產業會有很大的衝擊，10%的關稅也一樣，但我今天從您的報告裡，對於我所關心的這些數字，我上面什麼數字也沒有填，我為什麼什麼數字也沒有填？因為我找不到答案。"],["卓院長榮泰：事實上，這都在我手上這份資料裡面，但是這牽扯到產業上一些尚不足以對外宣布的事情，我們想等到事情更定案之後，我們再來做事後的說明，因為這個牽扯到一些機密上應該保守的問題，但是數字我都有表達出來了。"],["黃委員國昌：我再說一次，院長，我剛剛show出來的這些數字都是全體國人關心的數字，我希望什麼時候行政院能夠負責任的跟全體國人報告。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在事情定案之後一定的時間，一定會讓大家充分了解，目前請容許我們有這樣的彈性。拜託，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及各部會首長的備詢。","接下來請登記第4位蔡易餘委員質詢。鴻薇委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":13,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-11"],"gazette_id":"1143401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1143401_00001"}}}