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986.889, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 986.889, \"end\": 986.909, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,672 --> 00:00:14,757\n謝謝院長有請刑事院長卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢各位好\n\n2\n00:00:27,427 --> 00:00:47,161\n院長好今天主要是為兒童家庭還有教師有三題要跟您請命希望能夠得到院長的支持第一個部分我想今年就是從去年我們就知道勞動部爆發霸凌案\n\n3\n00:00:47,981 --> 00:01:11,184\n那當時就是部長也被迫下台然後我們的立院好同事洪森漢他接棒要繼續完善職場霸凌的機制那這幾張照片其實是要跟您講就是說在那件事情發生之後其實職場霸凌還不斷的發生中間這個是代理教師案那我也跟新北的代理教師一起開記者會\n\n4\n00:01:12,185 --> 00:01:26,958\n然後右邊是最近的台大醫院爆發的護理師申訴霸凌案那這裡面我們出開記者會其實都不只是個案是因為連台大醫院跟新北教育局都出現\n\n5\n00:01:27,779 --> 00:01:54,899\n制度跟程序的問題所以非常的重要再來是要跟您講其實教育體系裡面這個問題我長期關心從2021年不知道院長當時您還不是院長嘉義代理教師就被校長霸凌輕生當時我們就有談到其實整個校園處理霸凌機制事實上是不完善的去年教師節我也跟教師團體一起開記者會發現\n\n6\n00:01:58,101 --> 00:02:21,910\n當時都還沒有發生勞動部的這個事件職場霸凌其實是教師荒的原因之一所以我跟高教工會也一起開過記者會他們調查的是高教連高教的老師都有六成被調查的人說他們遇到職場霸凌的時候不敢提出申訴那有非常多的原因不信任這個制度所以我想先以我們的教師\n\n7\n00:02:23,010 --> 00:02:52,136\n遇到的職場霸凌讓院長了解這個問題的複雜度現在校園的職場霸凌可以說有六大問題就是我在這個PPT上整理的第一個多數學校都限制的很嚴格申訴是一年內第二個保護處理的相關機制譬如調查程序調查有沒有期限目前我們知道的高教工會的調查有30所大學相關的辦法中完全寫得不完\n\n8\n00:02:53,136 --> 00:03:13,586\n時間暫停范委員我們現在備詢台硬體設備就是三位現在教育部長已經來你看哪一位部長先回好不好沒關係蘭西不好意思這跨部會所以人比較多所以台不夠站的那我們教育部長先好了其實我昨天也在教育委員會有處理過這樣可以了嗎\n\n9\n00:03:15,487 --> 00:03:43,192\n好因為這樣子各方面畫面各方面都比較好有有有謝謝院長這樣有保障我的時間好那這裡面的就是包含就處理機制學校裡面的相關職場霸凌也沒有規定調查的組成那所以教師就會沒有信任感因為如果都是校長人馬的話等等最後呢救濟管道我剛剛講前面跟新北的代理教師開記者是因為\n\n10\n00:03:44,272 --> 00:04:03,411\n那位受害者他先跟勞工局申訴勞工局說代理教師跟教育局沒有勞僱關係無法使用職安法那後來呢教育局但是前面是勞工局教育局又告訴這個老師學校是教育業所以適用職安法\n\n11\n00:04:04,271 --> 00:04:30,837\n所以一個勞工局新北勞工局說不是用職安法他是代理教師那教育局說那個是職安法這代表目前的職場霸凌在教育領域裡面有一部分的人完全是真空狀態那現在我知道勞動部肯定就是洪部長積極在修職安法那考試院也正在修公務員的安慰辦法那本席非常的支持政府明確規範職場霸凌的處理機制\n\n12\n00:04:33,679 --> 00:04:37,556\n但是有兩大問題今天想跟院長\n\n13\n00:04:39,658 --> 00:05:07,896\n請教第一個我想非常的肯定勞動部最近很快就公告出預告草案內容可是這裡面我覺得還是有些地方要商去第一個裡面關於申訴調查處理的程序您看左邊就是第22-2內部申訴調查保護那裡面都是寫授權執法那外部申訴調查處理機制也是說授權執法\n\n14\n00:05:09,017 --> 00:05:33,459\n那我右邊是想要跟院長講可是您看一下性平教育法他完全都把主要的精神都明定在性平教育法這個母法中那當然我知道就是說其實性別平等教育法我們要肯定過去教育部還有相關的人長期的努力這個我們就國際的比較來講都是高標做得非常好\n\n15\n00:05:34,079 --> 00:06:01,257\n但是我想我們這次勞動部修法雖然勞動部有提到好像各國對職場霸凌的密度不如性騷性侵這些那麼高我還是覺得勞動部的職場霸凌就你們現在公告的草案內容還是應該要把申訴調查處理機制的原則性的精神就是不能夠有閃失的東西定在母法中這是第一點再來關於\n\n16\n00:06:05,039 --> 00:06:23,145\n職場霸凌的定義有想跟讓院長了解然後也希望勞動部可以再考慮目前職場霸凌第一個我先對這個定義覺得已經相當好值得肯定勞動部顯然邀了非常多的專家學者有做努力那現在唯一的一點就是\n\n17\n00:06:24,245 --> 00:06:43,172\n一些專家還有疑慮的是我們看下面的教師法就是CRC的國際審查就是兒童人權公約已經認為說我們教師法對於霸凌跟體罰要求造成其身心嚴重侵害條件違反公約他的意思是什麼\n\n18\n00:06:43,652 --> 00:06:58,965\n如果一個教師霸凌學生不能夠只是說他身心健康有傷害因為這個時候受害者要證明他身心健康是有傷害那難道身心健康的勞工被霸凌就不是霸凌嗎\n\n19\n00:06:59,685 --> 00:07:22,702\n所以我們應該從霸凌者的行為來做規範而不應該加上就是說致其身心健康遭受危害這個會讓成案非常的困難因為你要受害者要舉證那這個是我們在教育的現場已經正在發聲跟努力的事情那當然今天主要為什麼這一題不是直接問勞動部是問就是說院長\n\n20\n00:07:26,465 --> 00:07:52,715\n就是這裡面需要涉及到勞動部考試院的跨院合作那您可以看到我們這個霸凌議題非常的複雜校園是屬於職場適用職安法那公務人員適用安慰辦法是考試院那校園內的救濟是教育法規教育部教育部裡面又有代理教師所以院長是不是能夠就是\n\n21\n00:07:53,975 --> 00:08:19,110\n我等一下我這邊先回到教育的部分而且教育的部分特別複雜昨天已經在教育委員會裡面謝謝部長他其實有承諾說教育體系的部分會特別的去研究等到勞動部修好之後跟安慰法修好之後就會在三個月內能夠答應所以我想我今天主要的三個訴求是第一個\n\n22\n00:08:19,970 --> 00:08:35,146\n院長是不是能夠指派政院層級的人不管是政委或是副院長可以協調勞動部考試院人種教育部讓他們把職場霸凌的機制定義等能夠改善完善呢\n\n23\n00:08:35,866 --> 00:08:56,483\n第二個教育部是不是可以根據校園的特殊性研究在職安法修法後的三個月內完成校園內的制度完善那還有針對代理教師的部分教育部也應該要啟動代理教師的救濟權益修法那這三點訴求不知道院長是不是能夠承諾支持\n\n24\n00:08:57,364 --> 00:09:16,669\n非常謝謝委員關心這個重要的議題我也要非常遺憾的表示日前勞動部發生的問題引起社會的重視也做出了相當多的指責那我們相關包括勞動部包括我們人總還有所謂的部會也在同時擬定了很多的內部的辦法\n\n25\n00:09:17,549 --> 00:09:41,969\n那您剛剛提到的三個數學我想第一個現在包括人總包括勞動部或是還有其他部會跟考試院的保訓會都有在做一個修法上面的一個聯繫那麼如果說這個聯繫是順暢的我就希望他們能夠緊速去完成如果有問題我會請秘書長來做協調來幫忙兩院之間跟我們部會之間那這個第一個問題如果能夠這樣做就可以解決第三個問題\n\n26\n00:09:42,890 --> 00:10:06,249\n代理教室的問題也是現在還在因為目前真的沒有適當的機制那我們就可以再邀集這相關的部會來做一些未來能夠有效的救濟的方式那第二點部長剛剛也說明過了那昨天吧應該在教育委員會有說過三個月內要完成校內制度這個部分我想部長一定照著這樣的時程來跟委員做回報\n\n27\n00:10:06,837 --> 00:10:24,482\n好謝謝院長的支持那當然就是勞動部定義的部分我想這邊就請勞動部回去現在可以簡短回應嗎我簡單的回應我們在職安法上面用的所謂的危害這兩個字其實是職安法裡面的一個用詞它的意思並不是一定要\n\n28\n00:10:26,009 --> 00:10:39,837\n產生具體的傷害可能包括相關產生威脅其實他這個危害的這兩個字我想我們其實也許可以在修法的這個說明上面其實在說明的更清楚他不一定指的是他不是指\n\n29\n00:10:40,519 --> 00:10:57,702\n不只是指說一定要產生具體的傷害健康已經非常非常重大的損害才能夠算是這樣並不是這樣那我想那個部分就請勞動部因為你們是草案階段嘛能夠再請教各界的意見針對定義還有我們剛剛講的是不是都放在執法裡面有一些重要的原則\n\n30\n00:10:59,883 --> 00:11:22,690\n謝謝再來要為兒童權益兩位部長應該可以回座了這題不知道院長有沒有印象其實我去年6月10月總質詢都有講過兒童工作證這個是衛福部的範圍當時衛福部的回應是說好像不需要兒童工作證因為現在有各種不適任人員的資料庫\n\n31\n00:11:23,690 --> 00:11:38,703\n這個是針對像性侵性騷兒童這些就是曾經犯案過人那其實事情又經過了從去年又到現在您可以看到右邊的新聞性侵兒少被判刑下令負責人又開課\n\n32\n00:11:39,804 --> 00:12:02,653\n被判刑的又去開課下面的攜取名師設性侵甚至讓學生前往住處排練這個也是被學校開除的教授性侵教師又再度在文化部的活動出現那下面是台中棒球隊教練性侵41個兒童有前科因為他有良明症成功獲得獲聘\n\n33\n00:12:04,554 --> 00:12:25,008\n所以現在講的是一再發生的已經被判刑已經在個別的不適任資料庫的所以要跟院長報告我們左邊整理了現行的不適任資料庫的六大問題第一個如果這個活動不用立案就不用查譬如說夏令營小學才藝班家長自己揪團第二個掛一漏萬\n\n34\n00:12:26,949 --> 00:12:41,926\n譬如說現在我們發現家長喜歡文化才一般那你要再去文化部也要搞一個這個資料庫嗎第三個沒有落實查詢造成傷害台中棒球這個教練信心41筒這個事情就是沒有落實查核\n\n35\n00:12:42,867 --> 00:13:09,525\n那再來第四個期限一過完全消失因為這個不適任名單是有期限的第五個查詢權限很限縮一般人是沒有辦法查詢的最後呢查得到也進不了非常遺憾的台北幼兒園案的園長就是這樣所以事實證明上一次衛福部回應的不適任資料庫已經沒有辦法解決二郎再犯的問題那也跟院長報告那這個嚴肅的問題兒童節前夕\n\n36\n00:13:13,648 --> 00:13:36,804\n就是兒童保護的團體跟網路就是做公民連署的連署人一起為兒童請命那感謝那天衛福部很積極的過來有派副司長前來他當場肯認兒童工作正的精神也表示他們會去研議那所以今天我想再借這個機會那不知道院長\n\n37\n00:13:37,685 --> 00:14:01,878\n是不是有被說服因為衛福部的副司長已經承諾會去演繹了因為他們已經發現上一次之前回答的不適應資料庫其實沒有辦法解決因為太多資料庫了那是不是能夠支持在兒少全法修法的時候就直接納入像澳洲跟一些國家有的兒童工作證的制度給兒少更安全的成長環境呢\n\n38\n00:14:02,657 --> 00:14:26,927\n好謝謝委員如果現行資料庫的機制沒有辦法是應對目前還持續發生的社會現象那衛福部確實應該就整個制度面要積極的去研討那部長現在對於這個問題的下一步的研議的動作是怎麼樣請邱部長簡單回答就好謝謝委員的質詢除了現行的機制以外\n\n39\n00:14:27,487 --> 00:14:52,161\n我們適合參考澳洲的做法納入兒童及少年福利權益法把這個工作政策制度我們會積極邀請相關的部會與民間團體來演繹來積極的進行好謝謝邱部長那也謝謝卓院長支持那我們會再繼續監督最後一個雖然只有一分多那部長可以請回那又回到就是\n\n40\n00:14:53,061 --> 00:15:08,006\n一個非常重要的我想我們那個正副院長也會非常的關心因為他當時是我們賴清德總統候選人的政見的總負責人在我們賴總統的政見中有一個彈性喻音架譬如說第二行寫\n\n41\n00:15:08,806 --> 00:15:36,954\n實施得分次請領的彈性喻音架及津貼所以今天就是只有一點時間那我也是要肯定洪森漢部長一上任就積極落實只是我覺得他的回應還是語言太保守一點你說我們還沒有放棄你剛上任就還沒有放棄賴總統的政見這樣子不夠積極吧但是我也知道遇到很多的問題那當然我今天要問是擔心\n\n42\n00:15:38,294 --> 00:15:53,061\n勞動部因為錢因為行政人力出來的方案太保守你可以剛剛講的是六個月那人總協助支援人力因為我們的了解勞動部遇到的問題是說好像人總不給他人力這個涉及到\n\n43\n00:15:56,758 --> 00:16:21,693\n那院長是不是可以全力支持然後沒有這麼多還沒有做到的婦女團體的要求我會放心針對少數化的問題政府任何因應各部位組織來台我們都會優先來台採訪那我希望院長任內能夠努力六個月都能夠做到天尾三尾真正的談刑讓大家看得到懂得到好嗎我跟他們常常都會在一起\n\n44\n00:16:24,602 --> 00:16:26,909\n好謝謝范營委員質詢謝謝卓院長各部會首長的備詢謝謝接下來我們請圖全集委員質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10672\t14757\t謝謝院長有請刑事院長卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢各位好\n27427\t47161\t院長好今天主要是為兒童家庭還有教師有三題要跟您請命希望能夠得到院長的支持第一個部分我想今年就是從去年我們就知道勞動部爆發霸凌案\n47981\t71184\t那當時就是部長也被迫下台然後我們的立院好同事洪森漢他接棒要繼續完善職場霸凌的機制那這幾張照片其實是要跟您講就是說在那件事情發生之後其實職場霸凌還不斷的發生中間這個是代理教師案那我也跟新北的代理教師一起開記者會\n72185\t86958\t然後右邊是最近的台大醫院爆發的護理師申訴霸凌案那這裡面我們出開記者會其實都不只是個案是因為連台大醫院跟新北教育局都出現\n87779\t114899\t制度跟程序的問題所以非常的重要再來是要跟您講其實教育體系裡面這個問題我長期關心從2021年不知道院長當時您還不是院長嘉義代理教師就被校長霸凌輕生當時我們就有談到其實整個校園處理霸凌機制事實上是不完善的去年教師節我也跟教師團體一起開記者會發現\n118101\t141910\t當時都還沒有發生勞動部的這個事件職場霸凌其實是教師荒的原因之一所以我跟高教工會也一起開過記者會他們調查的是高教連高教的老師都有六成被調查的人說他們遇到職場霸凌的時候不敢提出申訴那有非常多的原因不信任這個制度所以我想先以我們的教師\n143010\t172136\t遇到的職場霸凌讓院長了解這個問題的複雜度現在校園的職場霸凌可以說有六大問題就是我在這個PPT上整理的第一個多數學校都限制的很嚴格申訴是一年內第二個保護處理的相關機制譬如調查程序調查有沒有期限目前我們知道的高教工會的調查有30所大學相關的辦法中完全寫得不完\n173136\t193586\t時間暫停 范委員我們現在備詢台硬體設備就是三位現在教育部長已經來你看哪一位部長先回好不好沒關係 蘭西不好意思 這跨部會所以人比較多所以台不夠站的那我們教育部長先好了其實我昨天也在教育委員會有處理過這樣可以了嗎\n195487\t223192\t好因為這樣子各方面畫面各方面都比較好有有有謝謝院長這樣有保障我的時間好那這裡面的就是包含就處理機制學校裡面的相關職場霸凌也沒有規定調查的組成那所以教師就會沒有信任感因為如果都是校長人馬的話等等最後呢救濟管道我剛剛講前面跟新北的代理教師開記者是因為\n224272\t243411\t那位受害者他先跟勞工局申訴勞工局說代理教師跟教育局沒有勞僱關係無法使用職安法那後來呢教育局但是前面是勞工局教育局又告訴這個老師學校是教育業所以適用職安法\n244271\t270837\t所以一個勞工局新北勞工局說不是用職安法他是代理教師那教育局說那個是職安法這代表目前的職場霸凌在教育領域裡面有一部分的人完全是真空狀態那現在我知道勞動部肯定就是洪部長積極在修職安法那考試院也正在修公務員的安慰辦法那本席非常的支持政府明確規範職場霸凌的處理機制\n273679\t277556\t但是有兩大問題今天想跟院長\n279658\t307896\t請教第一個我想非常的肯定勞動部最近很快就公告出預告草案內容可是這裡面我覺得還是有些地方要商去第一個裡面關於申訴調查處理的程序您看左邊就是第22-2內部申訴調查保護那裡面都是寫授權執法那外部申訴調查處理機制也是說授權執法\n309017\t333459\t那我右邊是想要跟院長講可是您看一下性平教育法他完全都把主要的精神都明定在性平教育法這個母法中那當然我知道就是說其實性別平等教育法我們要肯定過去教育部還有相關的人長期的努力這個我們就國際的比較來講都是高標做得非常好\n334079\t361257\t但是我想我們這次勞動部修法雖然勞動部有提到好像各國對職場霸凌的密度不如性騷性侵這些那麼高我還是覺得勞動部的職場霸凌就你們現在公告的草案內容還是應該要把申訴調查處理機制的原則性的精神就是不能夠有閃失的東西定在母法中這是第一點再來關於\n365039\t383145\t職場霸凌的定義有想跟讓院長了解然後也希望勞動部可以再考慮目前職場霸凌第一個我先對這個定義覺得已經相當好值得肯定勞動部顯然邀了非常多的專家學者有做努力那現在唯一的一點就是\n384245\t403172\t一些專家還有疑慮的是我們看下面的教師法就是CRC的國際審查就是兒童人權公約已經認為說我們教師法對於霸凌跟體罰要求造成其身心嚴重侵害條件違反公約他的意思是什麼\n403652\t418965\t如果一個教師霸凌學生不能夠只是說他身心健康有傷害因為這個時候受害者要證明他身心健康是有傷害那難道身心健康的勞工被霸凌就不是霸凌嗎\n419685\t442702\t所以我們應該從霸凌者的行為來做規範而不應該加上就是說致其身心健康遭受危害這個會讓成案非常的困難因為你要受害者要舉證那這個是我們在教育的現場已經正在發聲跟努力的事情那當然今天主要為什麼這一題不是直接問勞動部是問就是說院長\n446465\t472715\t就是這裡面需要涉及到勞動部考試院的跨院合作那您可以看到我們這個霸凌議題非常的複雜校園是屬於職場適用職安法那公務人員適用安慰辦法是考試院那校園內的救濟是教育法規教育部教育部裡面又有代理教師所以院長是不是能夠就是\n473975\t499110\t我等一下我這邊先回到教育的部分而且教育的部分特別複雜昨天已經在教育委員會裡面謝謝部長他其實有承諾說教育體系的部分會特別的去研究等到勞動部修好之後跟安慰法修好之後就會在三個月內能夠答應所以我想我今天主要的三個訴求是第一個\n499970\t515146\t院長是不是能夠指派政院層級的人不管是政委或是副院長可以協調勞動部考試院人種教育部讓他們把職場霸凌的機制定義等能夠改善完善呢\n515866\t536483\t第二個教育部是不是可以根據校園的特殊性研究在職安法修法後的三個月內完成校園內的制度完善那還有針對代理教師的部分教育部也應該要啟動代理教師的救濟權益修法那這三點訴求不知道院長是不是能夠承諾支持\n537364\t556669\t非常謝謝委員關心這個重要的議題我也要非常遺憾的表示日前勞動部發生的問題引起社會的重視也做出了相當多的指責那我們相關包括勞動部包括我們人總還有所謂的部會也在同時擬定了很多的內部的辦法\n557549\t581969\t那您剛剛提到的三個數學我想第一個現在包括人總包括勞動部或是還有其他部會跟考試院的保訓會都有在做一個修法上面的一個聯繫那麼如果說這個聯繫是順暢的我就希望他們能夠緊速去完成如果有問題我會請秘書長來做協調來幫忙兩院之間跟我們部會之間那這個第一個問題如果能夠這樣做就可以解決第三個問題\n582890\t606249\t代理教室的問題也是現在還在因為目前真的沒有適當的機制那我們就可以再邀集這相關的部會來做一些未來能夠有效的救濟的方式那第二點部長剛剛也說明過了那昨天吧應該在教育委員會有說過三個月內要完成校內制度這個部分我想部長一定照著這樣的時程來跟委員做回報\n606837\t624482\t好 謝謝院長的支持那當然就是勞動部定義的部分我想這邊就請勞動部回去現在可以簡短回應嗎我簡單的回應我們在職安法上面用的所謂的危害這兩個字其實是職安法裡面的一個用詞它的意思並不是一定要\n626009\t639837\t產生具體的傷害可能包括相關產生威脅其實他這個危害的這兩個字我想我們其實也許可以在修法的這個說明上面其實在說明的更清楚他不一定指的是他不是指\n640519\t657702\t不只是指說一定要產生具體的傷害健康已經非常非常重大的損害才能夠算是這樣並不是這樣那我想那個部分就請勞動部因為你們是草案階段嘛能夠再請教各界的意見針對定義還有我們剛剛講的是不是都放在執法裡面有一些重要的原則\n659883\t682690\t謝謝 再來要為兒童權益兩位部長應該可以回座了這題不知道院長有沒有印象其實我去年6月10月總質詢都有講過兒童工作證這個是衛福部的範圍當時衛福部的回應是說好像不需要兒童工作證因為現在有各種不適任人員的資料庫\n683690\t698703\t這個是針對像性侵性騷兒童這些就是曾經犯案過人那其實事情又經過了從去年又到現在您可以看到右邊的新聞性侵兒少被判刑下令負責人又開課\n699804\t722653\t被判刑的又去開課下面的攜取名師設性侵甚至讓學生前往住處排練這個也是被學校開除的教授性侵教師又再度在文化部的活動出現那下面是台中棒球隊教練性侵41個兒童有前科因為他有良明症成功獲得獲聘\n724554\t745008\t所以現在講的是一再發生的已經被判刑已經在個別的不適任資料庫的所以要跟院長報告我們左邊整理了現行的不適任資料庫的六大問題第一個如果這個活動不用立案就不用查譬如說夏令營小學才藝班家長自己揪團第二個掛一漏萬\n746949\t761926\t譬如說現在我們發現家長喜歡文化才一般那你要再去文化部也要搞一個這個資料庫嗎第三個沒有落實查詢造成傷害台中棒球這個教練信心41筒這個事情就是沒有落實查核\n762867\t789525\t那再來第四個期限一過完全消失因為這個不適任名單是有期限的第五個查詢權限很限縮一般人是沒有辦法查詢的最後呢查得到也進不了非常遺憾的台北幼兒園案的園長就是這樣所以事實證明上一次衛福部回應的不適任資料庫已經沒有辦法解決二郎再犯的問題那也跟院長報告那這個嚴肅的問題兒童節前夕\n793648\t816804\t就是兒童保護的團體跟網路就是做公民連署的連署人一起為兒童請命那感謝那天衛福部很積極的過來有派副司長前來他當場肯認兒童工作正的精神也表示他們會去研議那所以今天我想再借這個機會那不知道院長\n817685\t841878\t是不是有被說服因為衛福部的副司長已經承諾會去演繹了因為他們已經發現上一次之前回答的不適應資料庫其實沒有辦法解決因為太多資料庫了那是不是能夠支持在兒少全法修法的時候就直接納入像澳洲跟一些國家有的兒童工作證的制度給兒少更安全的成長環境呢\n842657\t866927\t好 謝謝委員如果現行資料庫的機制沒有辦法是應對目前還持續發生的社會現象那衛福部確實應該就整個制度面要積極的去研討那部長現在對於這個問題的下一步的研議的動作是怎麼樣請邱部長簡單回答就好謝謝委員的質詢除了現行的機制以外\n867487\t892161\t我們適合參考澳洲的做法納入兒童及少年福利權益法把這個工作政策制度我們會積極邀請相關的部會與民間團體來演繹來積極的進行好 謝謝邱部長那也謝謝卓院長支持那我們會再繼續監督最後一個雖然只有一分多那部長可以請回那又回到就是\n893061\t908006\t一個非常重要的我想我們那個正副院長也會非常的關心因為他當時是我們賴清德總統候選人的政見的總負責人在我們賴總統的政見中有一個彈性喻音架譬如說第二行寫\n908806\t936954\t實施得分次請領的彈性喻音架及津貼所以今天就是只有一點時間那我也是要肯定洪森漢部長一上任就積極落實只是我覺得他的回應還是語言太保守一點你說我們還沒有放棄你剛上任就還沒有放棄賴總統的政見這樣子不夠積極吧但是我也知道遇到很多的問題那當然我今天要問是擔心\n938294\t953061\t勞動部因為錢因為行政人力出來的方案太保守你可以剛剛講的是六個月那人總協助支援人力因為我們的了解勞動部遇到的問題是說好像人總不給他人力這個涉及到\n956758\t981693\t那院長是不是可以全力支持然後沒有這麼多還沒有做到的婦女團體的要求我會放心針對少數化的問題政府任何因應各部位組織來台我們都會優先來台採訪那我希望院長任內能夠努力六個月都能夠做到天尾三尾真正的談刑讓大家看得到 懂得到好嗎我跟他們常常都會在一起\n984602\t986909\t好 謝謝范營委員質詢謝謝卓院長 各部會首長的備詢 謝謝接下來我們請圖全集委員質詢\n","txt":"謝謝院長有請刑事院長卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢各位好\n院長好今天主要是為兒童家庭還有教師有三題要跟您請命希望能夠得到院長的支持第一個部分我想今年就是從去年我們就知道勞動部爆發霸凌案\n那當時就是部長也被迫下台然後我們的立院好同事洪森漢他接棒要繼續完善職場霸凌的機制那這幾張照片其實是要跟您講就是說在那件事情發生之後其實職場霸凌還不斷的發生中間這個是代理教師案那我也跟新北的代理教師一起開記者會\n然後右邊是最近的台大醫院爆發的護理師申訴霸凌案那這裡面我們出開記者會其實都不只是個案是因為連台大醫院跟新北教育局都出現\n制度跟程序的問題所以非常的重要再來是要跟您講其實教育體系裡面這個問題我長期關心從2021年不知道院長當時您還不是院長嘉義代理教師就被校長霸凌輕生當時我們就有談到其實整個校園處理霸凌機制事實上是不完善的去年教師節我也跟教師團體一起開記者會發現\n當時都還沒有發生勞動部的這個事件職場霸凌其實是教師荒的原因之一所以我跟高教工會也一起開過記者會他們調查的是高教連高教的老師都有六成被調查的人說他們遇到職場霸凌的時候不敢提出申訴那有非常多的原因不信任這個制度所以我想先以我們的教師\n遇到的職場霸凌讓院長了解這個問題的複雜度現在校園的職場霸凌可以說有六大問題就是我在這個PPT上整理的第一個多數學校都限制的很嚴格申訴是一年內第二個保護處理的相關機制譬如調查程序調查有沒有期限目前我們知道的高教工會的調查有30所大學相關的辦法中完全寫得不完\n時間暫停 范委員我們現在備詢台硬體設備就是三位現在教育部長已經來你看哪一位部長先回好不好沒關係 蘭西不好意思 這跨部會所以人比較多所以台不夠站的那我們教育部長先好了其實我昨天也在教育委員會有處理過這樣可以了嗎\n好因為這樣子各方面畫面各方面都比較好有有有謝謝院長這樣有保障我的時間好那這裡面的就是包含就處理機制學校裡面的相關職場霸凌也沒有規定調查的組成那所以教師就會沒有信任感因為如果都是校長人馬的話等等最後呢救濟管道我剛剛講前面跟新北的代理教師開記者是因為\n那位受害者他先跟勞工局申訴勞工局說代理教師跟教育局沒有勞僱關係無法使用職安法那後來呢教育局但是前面是勞工局教育局又告訴這個老師學校是教育業所以適用職安法\n所以一個勞工局新北勞工局說不是用職安法他是代理教師那教育局說那個是職安法這代表目前的職場霸凌在教育領域裡面有一部分的人完全是真空狀態那現在我知道勞動部肯定就是洪部長積極在修職安法那考試院也正在修公務員的安慰辦法那本席非常的支持政府明確規範職場霸凌的處理機制\n但是有兩大問題今天想跟院長\n請教第一個我想非常的肯定勞動部最近很快就公告出預告草案內容可是這裡面我覺得還是有些地方要商去第一個裡面關於申訴調查處理的程序您看左邊就是第22-2內部申訴調查保護那裡面都是寫授權執法那外部申訴調查處理機制也是說授權執法\n那我右邊是想要跟院長講可是您看一下性平教育法他完全都把主要的精神都明定在性平教育法這個母法中那當然我知道就是說其實性別平等教育法我們要肯定過去教育部還有相關的人長期的努力這個我們就國際的比較來講都是高標做得非常好\n但是我想我們這次勞動部修法雖然勞動部有提到好像各國對職場霸凌的密度不如性騷性侵這些那麼高我還是覺得勞動部的職場霸凌就你們現在公告的草案內容還是應該要把申訴調查處理機制的原則性的精神就是不能夠有閃失的東西定在母法中這是第一點再來關於\n職場霸凌的定義有想跟讓院長了解然後也希望勞動部可以再考慮目前職場霸凌第一個我先對這個定義覺得已經相當好值得肯定勞動部顯然邀了非常多的專家學者有做努力那現在唯一的一點就是\n一些專家還有疑慮的是我們看下面的教師法就是CRC的國際審查就是兒童人權公約已經認為說我們教師法對於霸凌跟體罰要求造成其身心嚴重侵害條件違反公約他的意思是什麼\n如果一個教師霸凌學生不能夠只是說他身心健康有傷害因為這個時候受害者要證明他身心健康是有傷害那難道身心健康的勞工被霸凌就不是霸凌嗎\n所以我們應該從霸凌者的行為來做規範而不應該加上就是說致其身心健康遭受危害這個會讓成案非常的困難因為你要受害者要舉證那這個是我們在教育的現場已經正在發聲跟努力的事情那當然今天主要為什麼這一題不是直接問勞動部是問就是說院長\n就是這裡面需要涉及到勞動部考試院的跨院合作那您可以看到我們這個霸凌議題非常的複雜校園是屬於職場適用職安法那公務人員適用安慰辦法是考試院那校園內的救濟是教育法規教育部教育部裡面又有代理教師所以院長是不是能夠就是\n我等一下我這邊先回到教育的部分而且教育的部分特別複雜昨天已經在教育委員會裡面謝謝部長他其實有承諾說教育體系的部分會特別的去研究等到勞動部修好之後跟安慰法修好之後就會在三個月內能夠答應所以我想我今天主要的三個訴求是第一個\n院長是不是能夠指派政院層級的人不管是政委或是副院長可以協調勞動部考試院人種教育部讓他們把職場霸凌的機制定義等能夠改善完善呢\n第二個教育部是不是可以根據校園的特殊性研究在職安法修法後的三個月內完成校園內的制度完善那還有針對代理教師的部分教育部也應該要啟動代理教師的救濟權益修法那這三點訴求不知道院長是不是能夠承諾支持\n非常謝謝委員關心這個重要的議題我也要非常遺憾的表示日前勞動部發生的問題引起社會的重視也做出了相當多的指責那我們相關包括勞動部包括我們人總還有所謂的部會也在同時擬定了很多的內部的辦法\n那您剛剛提到的三個數學我想第一個現在包括人總包括勞動部或是還有其他部會跟考試院的保訓會都有在做一個修法上面的一個聯繫那麼如果說這個聯繫是順暢的我就希望他們能夠緊速去完成如果有問題我會請秘書長來做協調來幫忙兩院之間跟我們部會之間那這個第一個問題如果能夠這樣做就可以解決第三個問題\n代理教室的問題也是現在還在因為目前真的沒有適當的機制那我們就可以再邀集這相關的部會來做一些未來能夠有效的救濟的方式那第二點部長剛剛也說明過了那昨天吧應該在教育委員會有說過三個月內要完成校內制度這個部分我想部長一定照著這樣的時程來跟委員做回報\n好 謝謝院長的支持那當然就是勞動部定義的部分我想這邊就請勞動部回去現在可以簡短回應嗎我簡單的回應我們在職安法上面用的所謂的危害這兩個字其實是職安法裡面的一個用詞它的意思並不是一定要\n產生具體的傷害可能包括相關產生威脅其實他這個危害的這兩個字我想我們其實也許可以在修法的這個說明上面其實在說明的更清楚他不一定指的是他不是指\n不只是指說一定要產生具體的傷害健康已經非常非常重大的損害才能夠算是這樣並不是這樣那我想那個部分就請勞動部因為你們是草案階段嘛能夠再請教各界的意見針對定義還有我們剛剛講的是不是都放在執法裡面有一些重要的原則\n謝謝 再來要為兒童權益兩位部長應該可以回座了這題不知道院長有沒有印象其實我去年6月10月總質詢都有講過兒童工作證這個是衛福部的範圍當時衛福部的回應是說好像不需要兒童工作證因為現在有各種不適任人員的資料庫\n這個是針對像性侵性騷兒童這些就是曾經犯案過人那其實事情又經過了從去年又到現在您可以看到右邊的新聞性侵兒少被判刑下令負責人又開課\n被判刑的又去開課下面的攜取名師設性侵甚至讓學生前往住處排練這個也是被學校開除的教授性侵教師又再度在文化部的活動出現那下面是台中棒球隊教練性侵41個兒童有前科因為他有良明症成功獲得獲聘\n所以現在講的是一再發生的已經被判刑已經在個別的不適任資料庫的所以要跟院長報告我們左邊整理了現行的不適任資料庫的六大問題第一個如果這個活動不用立案就不用查譬如說夏令營小學才藝班家長自己揪團第二個掛一漏萬\n譬如說現在我們發現家長喜歡文化才一般那你要再去文化部也要搞一個這個資料庫嗎第三個沒有落實查詢造成傷害台中棒球這個教練信心41筒這個事情就是沒有落實查核\n那再來第四個期限一過完全消失因為這個不適任名單是有期限的第五個查詢權限很限縮一般人是沒有辦法查詢的最後呢查得到也進不了非常遺憾的台北幼兒園案的園長就是這樣所以事實證明上一次衛福部回應的不適任資料庫已經沒有辦法解決二郎再犯的問題那也跟院長報告那這個嚴肅的問題兒童節前夕\n就是兒童保護的團體跟網路就是做公民連署的連署人一起為兒童請命那感謝那天衛福部很積極的過來有派副司長前來他當場肯認兒童工作正的精神也表示他們會去研議那所以今天我想再借這個機會那不知道院長\n是不是有被說服因為衛福部的副司長已經承諾會去演繹了因為他們已經發現上一次之前回答的不適應資料庫其實沒有辦法解決因為太多資料庫了那是不是能夠支持在兒少全法修法的時候就直接納入像澳洲跟一些國家有的兒童工作證的制度給兒少更安全的成長環境呢\n好 謝謝委員如果現行資料庫的機制沒有辦法是應對目前還持續發生的社會現象那衛福部確實應該就整個制度面要積極的去研討那部長現在對於這個問題的下一步的研議的動作是怎麼樣請邱部長簡單回答就好謝謝委員的質詢除了現行的機制以外\n我們適合參考澳洲的做法納入兒童及少年福利權益法把這個工作政策制度我們會積極邀請相關的部會與民間團體來演繹來積極的進行好 謝謝邱部長那也謝謝卓院長支持那我們會再繼續監督最後一個雖然只有一分多那部長可以請回那又回到就是\n一個非常重要的我想我們那個正副院長也會非常的關心因為他當時是我們賴清德總統候選人的政見的總負責人在我們賴總統的政見中有一個彈性喻音架譬如說第二行寫\n實施得分次請領的彈性喻音架及津貼所以今天就是只有一點時間那我也是要肯定洪森漢部長一上任就積極落實只是我覺得他的回應還是語言太保守一點你說我們還沒有放棄你剛上任就還沒有放棄賴總統的政見這樣子不夠積極吧但是我也知道遇到很多的問題那當然我今天要問是擔心\n勞動部因為錢因為行政人力出來的方案太保守你可以剛剛講的是六個月那人總協助支援人力因為我們的了解勞動部遇到的問題是說好像人總不給他人力這個涉及到\n那院長是不是可以全力支持然後沒有這麼多還沒有做到的婦女團體的要求我會放心針對少數化的問題政府任何因應各部位組織來台我們都會優先來台採訪那我希望院長任內能夠努力六個月都能夠做到天尾三尾真正的談刑讓大家看得到 懂得到好嗎我跟他們常常都會在一起\n好 謝謝范營委員質詢謝謝卓院長 各部會首長的備詢 謝謝接下來我們請圖全集委員質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.672 --> 00:14.757\n謝謝院長有請刑事院長卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢各位好\n\n00:27.427 --> 00:47.161\n院長好今天主要是為兒童家庭還有教師有三題要跟您請命希望能夠得到院長的支持第一個部分我想今年就是從去年我們就知道勞動部爆發霸凌案\n\n00:47.981 --> 01:11.184\n那當時就是部長也被迫下台然後我們的立院好同事洪森漢他接棒要繼續完善職場霸凌的機制那這幾張照片其實是要跟您講就是說在那件事情發生之後其實職場霸凌還不斷的發生中間這個是代理教師案那我也跟新北的代理教師一起開記者會\n\n01:12.185 --> 01:26.958\n然後右邊是最近的台大醫院爆發的護理師申訴霸凌案那這裡面我們出開記者會其實都不只是個案是因為連台大醫院跟新北教育局都出現\n\n01:27.779 --> 01:54.899\n制度跟程序的問題所以非常的重要再來是要跟您講其實教育體系裡面這個問題我長期關心從2021年不知道院長當時您還不是院長嘉義代理教師就被校長霸凌輕生當時我們就有談到其實整個校園處理霸凌機制事實上是不完善的去年教師節我也跟教師團體一起開記者會發現\n\n01:58.101 --> 02:21.910\n當時都還沒有發生勞動部的這個事件職場霸凌其實是教師荒的原因之一所以我跟高教工會也一起開過記者會他們調查的是高教連高教的老師都有六成被調查的人說他們遇到職場霸凌的時候不敢提出申訴那有非常多的原因不信任這個制度所以我想先以我們的教師\n\n02:23.010 --> 02:52.136\n遇到的職場霸凌讓院長了解這個問題的複雜度現在校園的職場霸凌可以說有六大問題就是我在這個PPT上整理的第一個多數學校都限制的很嚴格申訴是一年內第二個保護處理的相關機制譬如調查程序調查有沒有期限目前我們知道的高教工會的調查有30所大學相關的辦法中完全寫得不完\n\n02:53.136 --> 03:13.586\n時間暫停范委員我們現在備詢台硬體設備就是三位現在教育部長已經來你看哪一位部長先回好不好沒關係蘭西不好意思這跨部會所以人比較多所以台不夠站的那我們教育部長先好了其實我昨天也在教育委員會有處理過這樣可以了嗎\n\n03:15.487 --> 03:43.192\n好因為這樣子各方面畫面各方面都比較好有有有謝謝院長這樣有保障我的時間好那這裡面的就是包含就處理機制學校裡面的相關職場霸凌也沒有規定調查的組成那所以教師就會沒有信任感因為如果都是校長人馬的話等等最後呢救濟管道我剛剛講前面跟新北的代理教師開記者是因為\n\n03:44.272 --> 04:03.411\n那位受害者他先跟勞工局申訴勞工局說代理教師跟教育局沒有勞僱關係無法使用職安法那後來呢教育局但是前面是勞工局教育局又告訴這個老師學校是教育業所以適用職安法\n\n04:04.271 --> 04:30.837\n所以一個勞工局新北勞工局說不是用職安法他是代理教師那教育局說那個是職安法這代表目前的職場霸凌在教育領域裡面有一部分的人完全是真空狀態那現在我知道勞動部肯定就是洪部長積極在修職安法那考試院也正在修公務員的安慰辦法那本席非常的支持政府明確規範職場霸凌的處理機制\n\n04:33.679 --> 04:37.556\n但是有兩大問題今天想跟院長\n\n04:39.658 --> 05:07.896\n請教第一個我想非常的肯定勞動部最近很快就公告出預告草案內容可是這裡面我覺得還是有些地方要商去第一個裡面關於申訴調查處理的程序您看左邊就是第22-2內部申訴調查保護那裡面都是寫授權執法那外部申訴調查處理機制也是說授權執法\n\n05:09.017 --> 05:33.459\n那我右邊是想要跟院長講可是您看一下性平教育法他完全都把主要的精神都明定在性平教育法這個母法中那當然我知道就是說其實性別平等教育法我們要肯定過去教育部還有相關的人長期的努力這個我們就國際的比較來講都是高標做得非常好\n\n05:34.079 --> 06:01.257\n但是我想我們這次勞動部修法雖然勞動部有提到好像各國對職場霸凌的密度不如性騷性侵這些那麼高我還是覺得勞動部的職場霸凌就你們現在公告的草案內容還是應該要把申訴調查處理機制的原則性的精神就是不能夠有閃失的東西定在母法中這是第一點再來關於\n\n06:05.039 --> 06:23.145\n職場霸凌的定義有想跟讓院長了解然後也希望勞動部可以再考慮目前職場霸凌第一個我先對這個定義覺得已經相當好值得肯定勞動部顯然邀了非常多的專家學者有做努力那現在唯一的一點就是\n\n06:24.245 --> 06:43.172\n一些專家還有疑慮的是我們看下面的教師法就是CRC的國際審查就是兒童人權公約已經認為說我們教師法對於霸凌跟體罰要求造成其身心嚴重侵害條件違反公約他的意思是什麼\n\n06:43.652 --> 06:58.965\n如果一個教師霸凌學生不能夠只是說他身心健康有傷害因為這個時候受害者要證明他身心健康是有傷害那難道身心健康的勞工被霸凌就不是霸凌嗎\n\n06:59.685 --> 07:22.702\n所以我們應該從霸凌者的行為來做規範而不應該加上就是說致其身心健康遭受危害這個會讓成案非常的困難因為你要受害者要舉證那這個是我們在教育的現場已經正在發聲跟努力的事情那當然今天主要為什麼這一題不是直接問勞動部是問就是說院長\n\n07:26.465 --> 07:52.715\n就是這裡面需要涉及到勞動部考試院的跨院合作那您可以看到我們這個霸凌議題非常的複雜校園是屬於職場適用職安法那公務人員適用安慰辦法是考試院那校園內的救濟是教育法規教育部教育部裡面又有代理教師所以院長是不是能夠就是\n\n07:53.975 --> 08:19.110\n我等一下我這邊先回到教育的部分而且教育的部分特別複雜昨天已經在教育委員會裡面謝謝部長他其實有承諾說教育體系的部分會特別的去研究等到勞動部修好之後跟安慰法修好之後就會在三個月內能夠答應所以我想我今天主要的三個訴求是第一個\n\n08:19.970 --> 08:35.146\n院長是不是能夠指派政院層級的人不管是政委或是副院長可以協調勞動部考試院人種教育部讓他們把職場霸凌的機制定義等能夠改善完善呢\n\n08:35.866 --> 08:56.483\n第二個教育部是不是可以根據校園的特殊性研究在職安法修法後的三個月內完成校園內的制度完善那還有針對代理教師的部分教育部也應該要啟動代理教師的救濟權益修法那這三點訴求不知道院長是不是能夠承諾支持\n\n08:57.364 --> 09:16.669\n非常謝謝委員關心這個重要的議題我也要非常遺憾的表示日前勞動部發生的問題引起社會的重視也做出了相當多的指責那我們相關包括勞動部包括我們人總還有所謂的部會也在同時擬定了很多的內部的辦法\n\n09:17.549 --> 09:41.969\n那您剛剛提到的三個數學我想第一個現在包括人總包括勞動部或是還有其他部會跟考試院的保訓會都有在做一個修法上面的一個聯繫那麼如果說這個聯繫是順暢的我就希望他們能夠緊速去完成如果有問題我會請秘書長來做協調來幫忙兩院之間跟我們部會之間那這個第一個問題如果能夠這樣做就可以解決第三個問題\n\n09:42.890 --> 10:06.249\n代理教室的問題也是現在還在因為目前真的沒有適當的機制那我們就可以再邀集這相關的部會來做一些未來能夠有效的救濟的方式那第二點部長剛剛也說明過了那昨天吧應該在教育委員會有說過三個月內要完成校內制度這個部分我想部長一定照著這樣的時程來跟委員做回報\n\n10:06.837 --> 10:24.482\n好謝謝院長的支持那當然就是勞動部定義的部分我想這邊就請勞動部回去現在可以簡短回應嗎我簡單的回應我們在職安法上面用的所謂的危害這兩個字其實是職安法裡面的一個用詞它的意思並不是一定要\n\n10:26.009 --> 10:39.837\n產生具體的傷害可能包括相關產生威脅其實他這個危害的這兩個字我想我們其實也許可以在修法的這個說明上面其實在說明的更清楚他不一定指的是他不是指\n\n10:40.519 --> 10:57.702\n不只是指說一定要產生具體的傷害健康已經非常非常重大的損害才能夠算是這樣並不是這樣那我想那個部分就請勞動部因為你們是草案階段嘛能夠再請教各界的意見針對定義還有我們剛剛講的是不是都放在執法裡面有一些重要的原則\n\n10:59.883 --> 11:22.690\n謝謝再來要為兒童權益兩位部長應該可以回座了這題不知道院長有沒有印象其實我去年6月10月總質詢都有講過兒童工作證這個是衛福部的範圍當時衛福部的回應是說好像不需要兒童工作證因為現在有各種不適任人員的資料庫\n\n11:23.690 --> 11:38.703\n這個是針對像性侵性騷兒童這些就是曾經犯案過人那其實事情又經過了從去年又到現在您可以看到右邊的新聞性侵兒少被判刑下令負責人又開課\n\n11:39.804 --> 12:02.653\n被判刑的又去開課下面的攜取名師設性侵甚至讓學生前往住處排練這個也是被學校開除的教授性侵教師又再度在文化部的活動出現那下面是台中棒球隊教練性侵41個兒童有前科因為他有良明症成功獲得獲聘\n\n12:04.554 --> 12:25.008\n所以現在講的是一再發生的已經被判刑已經在個別的不適任資料庫的所以要跟院長報告我們左邊整理了現行的不適任資料庫的六大問題第一個如果這個活動不用立案就不用查譬如說夏令營小學才藝班家長自己揪團第二個掛一漏萬\n\n12:26.949 --> 12:41.926\n譬如說現在我們發現家長喜歡文化才一般那你要再去文化部也要搞一個這個資料庫嗎第三個沒有落實查詢造成傷害台中棒球這個教練信心41筒這個事情就是沒有落實查核\n\n12:42.867 --> 13:09.525\n那再來第四個期限一過完全消失因為這個不適任名單是有期限的第五個查詢權限很限縮一般人是沒有辦法查詢的最後呢查得到也進不了非常遺憾的台北幼兒園案的園長就是這樣所以事實證明上一次衛福部回應的不適任資料庫已經沒有辦法解決二郎再犯的問題那也跟院長報告那這個嚴肅的問題兒童節前夕\n\n13:13.648 --> 13:36.804\n就是兒童保護的團體跟網路就是做公民連署的連署人一起為兒童請命那感謝那天衛福部很積極的過來有派副司長前來他當場肯認兒童工作正的精神也表示他們會去研議那所以今天我想再借這個機會那不知道院長\n\n13:37.685 --> 14:01.878\n是不是有被說服因為衛福部的副司長已經承諾會去演繹了因為他們已經發現上一次之前回答的不適應資料庫其實沒有辦法解決因為太多資料庫了那是不是能夠支持在兒少全法修法的時候就直接納入像澳洲跟一些國家有的兒童工作證的制度給兒少更安全的成長環境呢\n\n14:02.657 --> 14:26.927\n好謝謝委員如果現行資料庫的機制沒有辦法是應對目前還持續發生的社會現象那衛福部確實應該就整個制度面要積極的去研討那部長現在對於這個問題的下一步的研議的動作是怎麼樣請邱部長簡單回答就好謝謝委員的質詢除了現行的機制以外\n\n14:27.487 --> 14:52.161\n我們適合參考澳洲的做法納入兒童及少年福利權益法把這個工作政策制度我們會積極邀請相關的部會與民間團體來演繹來積極的進行好謝謝邱部長那也謝謝卓院長支持那我們會再繼續監督最後一個雖然只有一分多那部長可以請回那又回到就是\n\n14:53.061 --> 15:08.006\n一個非常重要的我想我們那個正副院長也會非常的關心因為他當時是我們賴清德總統候選人的政見的總負責人在我們賴總統的政見中有一個彈性喻音架譬如說第二行寫\n\n15:08.806 --> 15:36.954\n實施得分次請領的彈性喻音架及津貼所以今天就是只有一點時間那我也是要肯定洪森漢部長一上任就積極落實只是我覺得他的回應還是語言太保守一點你說我們還沒有放棄你剛上任就還沒有放棄賴總統的政見這樣子不夠積極吧但是我也知道遇到很多的問題那當然我今天要問是擔心\n\n15:38.294 --> 15:53.061\n勞動部因為錢因為行政人力出來的方案太保守你可以剛剛講的是六個月那人總協助支援人力因為我們的了解勞動部遇到的問題是說好像人總不給他人力這個涉及到\n\n15:56.758 --> 16:21.693\n那院長是不是可以全力支持然後沒有這麼多還沒有做到的婦女團體的要求我會放心針對少數化的問題政府任何因應各部位組織來台我們都會優先來台採訪那我希望院長任內能夠努力六個月都能夠做到天尾三尾真正的談刑讓大家看得到懂得到好嗎我跟他們常常都會在一起\n\n16:24.602 --> 16:26.909\n好謝謝范營委員質詢謝謝卓院長各部會首長的備詢謝謝接下來我們請圖全集委員質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.672,"end":14.757,"text":"謝謝院長有請刑事院長卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢各位好"},{"start":27.427,"end":47.161,"text":"院長好今天主要是為兒童家庭還有教師有三題要跟您請命希望能夠得到院長的支持第一個部分我想今年就是從去年我們就知道勞動部爆發霸凌案"},{"start":47.981,"end":71.184,"text":"那當時就是部長也被迫下台然後我們的立院好同事洪森漢他接棒要繼續完善職場霸凌的機制那這幾張照片其實是要跟您講就是說在那件事情發生之後其實職場霸凌還不斷的發生中間這個是代理教師案那我也跟新北的代理教師一起開記者會"},{"start":72.185,"end":86.958,"text":"然後右邊是最近的台大醫院爆發的護理師申訴霸凌案那這裡面我們出開記者會其實都不只是個案是因為連台大醫院跟新北教育局都出現"},{"start":87.779,"end":114.899,"text":"制度跟程序的問題所以非常的重要再來是要跟您講其實教育體系裡面這個問題我長期關心從2021年不知道院長當時您還不是院長嘉義代理教師就被校長霸凌輕生當時我們就有談到其實整個校園處理霸凌機制事實上是不完善的去年教師節我也跟教師團體一起開記者會發現"},{"start":118.101,"end":141.91,"text":"當時都還沒有發生勞動部的這個事件職場霸凌其實是教師荒的原因之一所以我跟高教工會也一起開過記者會他們調查的是高教連高教的老師都有六成被調查的人說他們遇到職場霸凌的時候不敢提出申訴那有非常多的原因不信任這個制度所以我想先以我們的教師"},{"start":143.01,"end":172.136,"text":"遇到的職場霸凌讓院長了解這個問題的複雜度現在校園的職場霸凌可以說有六大問題就是我在這個PPT上整理的第一個多數學校都限制的很嚴格申訴是一年內第二個保護處理的相關機制譬如調查程序調查有沒有期限目前我們知道的高教工會的調查有30所大學相關的辦法中完全寫得不完"},{"start":173.136,"end":193.586,"text":"時間暫停 范委員我們現在備詢台硬體設備就是三位現在教育部長已經來你看哪一位部長先回好不好沒關係 蘭西不好意思 這跨部會所以人比較多所以台不夠站的那我們教育部長先好了其實我昨天也在教育委員會有處理過這樣可以了嗎"},{"start":195.487,"end":223.192,"text":"好因為這樣子各方面畫面各方面都比較好有有有謝謝院長這樣有保障我的時間好那這裡面的就是包含就處理機制學校裡面的相關職場霸凌也沒有規定調查的組成那所以教師就會沒有信任感因為如果都是校長人馬的話等等最後呢救濟管道我剛剛講前面跟新北的代理教師開記者是因為"},{"start":224.272,"end":243.411,"text":"那位受害者他先跟勞工局申訴勞工局說代理教師跟教育局沒有勞僱關係無法使用職安法那後來呢教育局但是前面是勞工局教育局又告訴這個老師學校是教育業所以適用職安法"},{"start":244.271,"end":270.837,"text":"所以一個勞工局新北勞工局說不是用職安法他是代理教師那教育局說那個是職安法這代表目前的職場霸凌在教育領域裡面有一部分的人完全是真空狀態那現在我知道勞動部肯定就是洪部長積極在修職安法那考試院也正在修公務員的安慰辦法那本席非常的支持政府明確規範職場霸凌的處理機制"},{"start":273.679,"end":277.556,"text":"但是有兩大問題今天想跟院長"},{"start":279.658,"end":307.896,"text":"請教第一個我想非常的肯定勞動部最近很快就公告出預告草案內容可是這裡面我覺得還是有些地方要商去第一個裡面關於申訴調查處理的程序您看左邊就是第22-2內部申訴調查保護那裡面都是寫授權執法那外部申訴調查處理機制也是說授權執法"},{"start":309.017,"end":333.459,"text":"那我右邊是想要跟院長講可是您看一下性平教育法他完全都把主要的精神都明定在性平教育法這個母法中那當然我知道就是說其實性別平等教育法我們要肯定過去教育部還有相關的人長期的努力這個我們就國際的比較來講都是高標做得非常好"},{"start":334.079,"end":361.257,"text":"但是我想我們這次勞動部修法雖然勞動部有提到好像各國對職場霸凌的密度不如性騷性侵這些那麼高我還是覺得勞動部的職場霸凌就你們現在公告的草案內容還是應該要把申訴調查處理機制的原則性的精神就是不能夠有閃失的東西定在母法中這是第一點再來關於"},{"start":365.039,"end":383.145,"text":"職場霸凌的定義有想跟讓院長了解然後也希望勞動部可以再考慮目前職場霸凌第一個我先對這個定義覺得已經相當好值得肯定勞動部顯然邀了非常多的專家學者有做努力那現在唯一的一點就是"},{"start":384.245,"end":403.172,"text":"一些專家還有疑慮的是我們看下面的教師法就是CRC的國際審查就是兒童人權公約已經認為說我們教師法對於霸凌跟體罰要求造成其身心嚴重侵害條件違反公約他的意思是什麼"},{"start":403.652,"end":418.965,"text":"如果一個教師霸凌學生不能夠只是說他身心健康有傷害因為這個時候受害者要證明他身心健康是有傷害那難道身心健康的勞工被霸凌就不是霸凌嗎"},{"start":419.685,"end":442.702,"text":"所以我們應該從霸凌者的行為來做規範而不應該加上就是說致其身心健康遭受危害這個會讓成案非常的困難因為你要受害者要舉證那這個是我們在教育的現場已經正在發聲跟努力的事情那當然今天主要為什麼這一題不是直接問勞動部是問就是說院長"},{"start":446.465,"end":472.715,"text":"就是這裡面需要涉及到勞動部考試院的跨院合作那您可以看到我們這個霸凌議題非常的複雜校園是屬於職場適用職安法那公務人員適用安慰辦法是考試院那校園內的救濟是教育法規教育部教育部裡面又有代理教師所以院長是不是能夠就是"},{"start":473.975,"end":499.11,"text":"我等一下我這邊先回到教育的部分而且教育的部分特別複雜昨天已經在教育委員會裡面謝謝部長他其實有承諾說教育體系的部分會特別的去研究等到勞動部修好之後跟安慰法修好之後就會在三個月內能夠答應所以我想我今天主要的三個訴求是第一個"},{"start":499.97,"end":515.146,"text":"院長是不是能夠指派政院層級的人不管是政委或是副院長可以協調勞動部考試院人種教育部讓他們把職場霸凌的機制定義等能夠改善完善呢"},{"start":515.866,"end":536.483,"text":"第二個教育部是不是可以根據校園的特殊性研究在職安法修法後的三個月內完成校園內的制度完善那還有針對代理教師的部分教育部也應該要啟動代理教師的救濟權益修法那這三點訴求不知道院長是不是能夠承諾支持"},{"start":537.364,"end":556.669,"text":"非常謝謝委員關心這個重要的議題我也要非常遺憾的表示日前勞動部發生的問題引起社會的重視也做出了相當多的指責那我們相關包括勞動部包括我們人總還有所謂的部會也在同時擬定了很多的內部的辦法"},{"start":557.549,"end":581.969,"text":"那您剛剛提到的三個數學我想第一個現在包括人總包括勞動部或是還有其他部會跟考試院的保訓會都有在做一個修法上面的一個聯繫那麼如果說這個聯繫是順暢的我就希望他們能夠緊速去完成如果有問題我會請秘書長來做協調來幫忙兩院之間跟我們部會之間那這個第一個問題如果能夠這樣做就可以解決第三個問題"},{"start":582.89,"end":606.249,"text":"代理教室的問題也是現在還在因為目前真的沒有適當的機制那我們就可以再邀集這相關的部會來做一些未來能夠有效的救濟的方式那第二點部長剛剛也說明過了那昨天吧應該在教育委員會有說過三個月內要完成校內制度這個部分我想部長一定照著這樣的時程來跟委員做回報"},{"start":606.837,"end":624.482,"text":"好 謝謝院長的支持那當然就是勞動部定義的部分我想這邊就請勞動部回去現在可以簡短回應嗎我簡單的回應我們在職安法上面用的所謂的危害這兩個字其實是職安法裡面的一個用詞它的意思並不是一定要"},{"start":626.009,"end":639.837,"text":"產生具體的傷害可能包括相關產生威脅其實他這個危害的這兩個字我想我們其實也許可以在修法的這個說明上面其實在說明的更清楚他不一定指的是他不是指"},{"start":640.519,"end":657.702,"text":"不只是指說一定要產生具體的傷害健康已經非常非常重大的損害才能夠算是這樣並不是這樣那我想那個部分就請勞動部因為你們是草案階段嘛能夠再請教各界的意見針對定義還有我們剛剛講的是不是都放在執法裡面有一些重要的原則"},{"start":659.883,"end":682.69,"text":"謝謝 再來要為兒童權益兩位部長應該可以回座了這題不知道院長有沒有印象其實我去年6月10月總質詢都有講過兒童工作證這個是衛福部的範圍當時衛福部的回應是說好像不需要兒童工作證因為現在有各種不適任人員的資料庫"},{"start":683.69,"end":698.703,"text":"這個是針對像性侵性騷兒童這些就是曾經犯案過人那其實事情又經過了從去年又到現在您可以看到右邊的新聞性侵兒少被判刑下令負責人又開課"},{"start":699.804,"end":722.653,"text":"被判刑的又去開課下面的攜取名師設性侵甚至讓學生前往住處排練這個也是被學校開除的教授性侵教師又再度在文化部的活動出現那下面是台中棒球隊教練性侵41個兒童有前科因為他有良明症成功獲得獲聘"},{"start":724.554,"end":745.008,"text":"所以現在講的是一再發生的已經被判刑已經在個別的不適任資料庫的所以要跟院長報告我們左邊整理了現行的不適任資料庫的六大問題第一個如果這個活動不用立案就不用查譬如說夏令營小學才藝班家長自己揪團第二個掛一漏萬"},{"start":746.949,"end":761.926,"text":"譬如說現在我們發現家長喜歡文化才一般那你要再去文化部也要搞一個這個資料庫嗎第三個沒有落實查詢造成傷害台中棒球這個教練信心41筒這個事情就是沒有落實查核"},{"start":762.867,"end":789.525,"text":"那再來第四個期限一過完全消失因為這個不適任名單是有期限的第五個查詢權限很限縮一般人是沒有辦法查詢的最後呢查得到也進不了非常遺憾的台北幼兒園案的園長就是這樣所以事實證明上一次衛福部回應的不適任資料庫已經沒有辦法解決二郎再犯的問題那也跟院長報告那這個嚴肅的問題兒童節前夕"},{"start":793.648,"end":816.804,"text":"就是兒童保護的團體跟網路就是做公民連署的連署人一起為兒童請命那感謝那天衛福部很積極的過來有派副司長前來他當場肯認兒童工作正的精神也表示他們會去研議那所以今天我想再借這個機會那不知道院長"},{"start":817.685,"end":841.878,"text":"是不是有被說服因為衛福部的副司長已經承諾會去演繹了因為他們已經發現上一次之前回答的不適應資料庫其實沒有辦法解決因為太多資料庫了那是不是能夠支持在兒少全法修法的時候就直接納入像澳洲跟一些國家有的兒童工作證的制度給兒少更安全的成長環境呢"},{"start":842.657,"end":866.927,"text":"好 謝謝委員如果現行資料庫的機制沒有辦法是應對目前還持續發生的社會現象那衛福部確實應該就整個制度面要積極的去研討那部長現在對於這個問題的下一步的研議的動作是怎麼樣請邱部長簡單回答就好謝謝委員的質詢除了現行的機制以外"},{"start":867.487,"end":892.161,"text":"我們適合參考澳洲的做法納入兒童及少年福利權益法把這個工作政策制度我們會積極邀請相關的部會與民間團體來演繹來積極的進行好 謝謝邱部長那也謝謝卓院長支持那我們會再繼續監督最後一個雖然只有一分多那部長可以請回那又回到就是"},{"start":893.061,"end":908.006,"text":"一個非常重要的我想我們那個正副院長也會非常的關心因為他當時是我們賴清德總統候選人的政見的總負責人在我們賴總統的政見中有一個彈性喻音架譬如說第二行寫"},{"start":908.806,"end":936.954,"text":"實施得分次請領的彈性喻音架及津貼所以今天就是只有一點時間那我也是要肯定洪森漢部長一上任就積極落實只是我覺得他的回應還是語言太保守一點你說我們還沒有放棄你剛上任就還沒有放棄賴總統的政見這樣子不夠積極吧但是我也知道遇到很多的問題那當然我今天要問是擔心"},{"start":938.294,"end":953.061,"text":"勞動部因為錢因為行政人力出來的方案太保守你可以剛剛講的是六個月那人總協助支援人力因為我們的了解勞動部遇到的問題是說好像人總不給他人力這個涉及到"},{"start":956.758,"end":981.693,"text":"那院長是不是可以全力支持然後沒有這麼多還沒有做到的婦女團體的要求我會放心針對少數化的問題政府任何因應各部位組織來台我們都會優先來台採訪那我希望院長任內能夠努力六個月都能夠做到天尾三尾真正的談刑讓大家看得到 懂得到好嗎我跟他們常常都會在一起"},{"start":984.602,"end":986.909,"text":"好 謝謝范營委員質詢謝謝卓院長 各部會首長的備詢 謝謝接下來我們請圖全集委員質詢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":147,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（9時32分）謝謝院長，有請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：范委員好。"],["范委員雲：院長好。今天主要是為兒童、家庭還有教師，有三題要跟您請命，希望能夠得到院長的支持。第一個部分，我想從去年我們就知道勞動部爆發霸凌案，當時部長也被迫下台，然後我們的立院好同事洪申翰他接棒，要繼續完善職場霸凌的機制，這幾張照片其實是要跟您講就是說在那件事情發生之後，其實職場霸凌還不斷地發生，中間這個是代理教師案，我也跟新北的代理教師一起開記者會；然後右邊是最近臺大醫院爆發的護理師申訴霸凌案，這裡面我們開記者會，其實都不只是個案，因為就連臺大醫院跟新北教育局都出現制度跟程序的問題，所以非常重要。","再來是要跟您講，其實教育體系裡面，這個問題我長期關心，從2021年，當時您還不是院長，嘉義代理教師就被校長霸凌輕生，當時我們就有談到其實整個校園處理霸凌機制，事實上是不完善的。去年教師節我也跟教師團體一起開記者會，當時都還沒有發生勞動部的這個事件，發現職場霸凌其實是教師荒的原因之一，所以我跟高教工會也一起開過記者會，他們調查的是高教，連高教的老師都有六成被調查的人說，他們遇到職場霸凌的時候不敢提出申訴，有非常多的原因，不信任這個制度，所以我想先以我們的教師遇到的職場霸凌，讓院長了解這個問題的複雜度。現在校園的職場霸凌可以說有六大問題，就是我在這個PPT上整理的，第一個，多數學校都限制得很嚴格，申訴是一年內；第二個，保護處理的相關機制，譬如調查程序、調查有沒有期限，目前我們知道的高教工會的調查，有30所大學在相關辦法中寫得並不完善……"],["主席：時間暫停，范委員。我們現在備詢臺硬體設備……就是3位，現在教育部長已經來了，您看哪一位部長先回，好不好？"],["范委員雲：沒關係、沒關係。"],["主席：人事總處請回，好不好？"],["范委員雲：不好意思，因為跨部會，所以人比較多，備詢臺不夠站，是不是？"],["主席：對。"],["范委員雲：先請教育部長好了。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["范委員雲：其實我昨天也在教育委員會有處理過，這樣可以了嗎？"],["主席：好，因為這樣子畫面等各方面都比較好。"],["范委員雲：有、有、有，謝謝院長有保障我的時間。"],["主席：時間繼續。"],["范委員雲：這裡面包含就處理機制，學校裡面的相關職場霸凌也沒有規定調查的組成，所以教師就會沒有信任感，因為如果都是校長人馬的話等等。最後，救濟管道，我剛剛講，前面與新北的代理教師開記者會是因為那位受害者先跟勞工局申訴，勞工局說代理教師跟教育局沒有勞僱關係，無法使用職安法。前面是勞工局，後來教育局又告訴這個老師，學校是教育業適用職安法。所以新北勞工局說不適用職安法，他是代理教師。那教育局說那個是職安法。這代表目前的職場霸凌在教育領域裡面有一部分的人完全是真空狀態。","現在我知道勞動部洪部長積極在修職安法，考試院也正在修公務員的安衛辦法，本席非常支持政府明確規範職場霸凌的處理機制，但是有兩大問題今天想跟院長請教，首先我非常肯定勞動部最近很快就公告預告草案內容，可是這裡面我覺得還是有些地方有待商榷，第一個，關於申訴調查處理的程序，您看左邊，就是第二十二條之二規定內部申訴、調查及保護，裡面都是寫授權子法；而外部申訴、調查及處理機制也是說授權子法，右邊是想要跟院長講，可是您看一下性平教育法，它完全都把主要精神都明定在性平教育法母法中。當然我知道其實性別平等教育法，我們要肯定過去教育部還有相關的人長期努力，我們就國際的比較來講都是高標，做得非常好。但是我想這一次勞動部修法，雖然勞動部有提到好像各國對職場霸凌的密度不如性騷、性侵等這些那麼高，我還是覺得勞動部的職場霸凌就你們現在公告的草案內容，還是應該要把申訴、調查及處理機制的原則性精神，就是不能夠有閃失的內容定在母法中，這是第一點。","再來，關於職場霸凌的定義想讓院長了解，然後也希望勞動部可以再考慮，目前職場霸凌第一個，我對這個定義覺得已經相當好，值得肯定，勞動部顯然邀了非常多的專家學者有做努力。現在唯一的一點就是，一些專家還有疑慮的是，我們看下面的教師法，就是CRC的國際審查，兒童人權公約已經認為我們教師法對於定義霸凌跟體罰，要求「造成其身心嚴重侵害」條件，違反公約。它的意思是什麼？如果一個教師霸凌學生不能夠只是他身心健康有傷害，因為這個時候受害者要證明他身心健康是否有傷害，難道身心健康的勞工被霸凌就不是霸凌嗎？所以我們應該從霸凌者的行為來做規範，而不應該加上「致其身心健康遭受危害」，這個會讓成案非常困難，因為受害者要舉證，這個是我們在教育現場已經正在發生跟努力的事情。當然今天這題為什麼不是主要直接問勞動部，而是問院長？因為這裡面須要涉及到勞動部、考試院的跨院合作，您可以看到這個霸凌議題非常地複雜，校園是屬於職場，適用職安法，公務人員適用安衛辦法，是隸屬於考試院，校園內的救濟是教育法規，隸屬於教育部，教育部裡面又有代理教師。所以院長是不是能夠……等一下，我這邊先回到教育的部分，而且教育的部分特別複雜，我昨天已經在教育委員會裡面提到，謝謝部長，他其實有承諾教育體系的部分會特別去研究，等到勞動部職安法及安衛辦法修好之後，就答應會在三個月內完成。所以我今天主要的三個訴求是：第一個，院長是不是能夠指派政院層級的人，不管是政委或是副院長，協調勞動部、考試院、人總及教育部，讓他們把職場霸凌的機制、定義等能夠改善完善呢？第二個，教育部是不是可以根據校園的特殊性研究，在職安法修法後的三個月內完成校園內的制度完善？還有針對代理教師的部分，教育部也應該要啟動代理教師的救濟權益修法。這三點訴求不知道院長是不是能夠承諾支持？"],["卓院長榮泰：非常謝謝委員關心這個重要的議題，我也要非常遺憾地表示，日前勞動部發生的問題引起社會的重視，也做出了相當多的指責，我們相關的包括勞動部、包括人總，還有所有部會也同時擬訂了很多的內部辦法。您剛剛提到的三個訴求，第一個，現在包括人總、包括勞動部，或是還有其他部會，跟考試院的保訓會都有在做修法上面的聯繫，如果這個聯繫是順暢的，我希望他們能夠儘速完成，如果有問題，我會請秘書長來做協調，來幫忙兩院之間跟我們部會之間，如果第一個問題能夠這麼做，就可以解決第三個問題，有關代理教師的問題，因為目前真的沒有適當的機制，我們可以再邀集相關部會來研議未來有效的救濟方式。","第二點，部長剛剛也說明過了，應該是昨天在教育委員會有說過三個月內要完成校內制度，這個部分我想部長一定照著這樣的時程來跟委員做回報。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝院長的支持，勞動部的定義部分，我想這邊就請勞動部回去……現在可以簡短回應嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我簡單的回應，我們在職安法上面用的所謂危害這兩個字，其實是職安法裡面的一個用詞，它的意思並不是一定要產生具體的傷害，可能包括產生相關威脅，其實「危害」這兩個字，我想我們也許可以在修法的說明上面再說明得更清楚，它不只是指說一定要產生具體的傷害，健康已經受到非常、非常重大的損害，才能夠算是，並不是這樣。"],["范委員雲：好。我想那個部分因為你們是草案階段嘛，就請勞動部再請教各界的意見，針對定義，還有我們剛剛講的，有一些重要的原則是不是都放在子法裡面。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝。再來要為兒童權益，兩位部長應該可以回座了，這一題不知道院長有沒有印象，其實我去年6月、10月總質詢都有講過兒童工作證，這是衛福部的範圍，當時衛福部的回應是說好像不需要兒童工作證，因為現在有各種不適任人員的資料庫，這是針對曾經犯過性侵、性騷兒童在案的人，其實事情又經過了從去年到現在，您可以看到右邊的新聞「性侵兒少被判刑　夏令營負責人竟又開課」，被判刑的又去開課；還有「戲曲名師涉性侵　甚至讓學生前往住處排練」，這也是被學校開除的教授，性侵教師又再度在文化部的活動出現；接下來還有「臺中棒球隊教練性侵41童！」有前科，但因為他有良民證卻成功獲聘。現在講的是一再發生的，已經被判刑、已經在個別的不適任資料庫的，所以要跟院長報告，我們左邊整理了現行不適任資料庫的六大問題：第一個，如果這個活動不需立案就不用查詢，譬如夏令營小學、才藝班、家長自己揪團；第二個，掛一漏萬，譬如現在我們發現家長喜歡文化才藝班，你要再讓文化部也搞一個這樣的資料庫嗎？第三個，沒有落實查詢造成傷害，臺中棒球教練性侵41童這件事情就是沒有落實查核；再來第四個，期限一過完全消失，因為這個不適任名單是有期限的；第五個，查詢權限很限縮，一般人是沒有辦法查詢的；最後，查得到也禁不了，非常遺憾的臺北幼兒園案園長就是這樣。所以事實證明，上一次衛福部回應的不適任資料庫已經沒有辦法解決惡狼再犯的問題！","也跟院長報告，針對這個嚴肅的問題，在兒童節前夕我們跟兒童保護團體、網路公民連署的連署人一起為兒童請命，感謝那天衛福部很積極有派副司長前來，他當場肯認兒童工作證的精神，也表示他們會去研議，所以今天我想再藉這個機會，不知道院長是不是有被說服？因為衛福部的副司長已經承諾會去研議了，因為他們已經發現之前回答的不適任資料庫其實沒有辦法解決，因為太多資料庫了，您是不是能夠支持在兒少權法修法的時候就直接納入像澳洲跟一些國家有的兒童工作證制度，給兒少更安全的成長環境呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，如果現行資料庫的機制沒有辦法應對目前還持續發生的社會現象，衛福部確實應該就整個制度面積極的研討，部長現在對於這個問題下一步研議的動作是怎麼樣，跟委員回答。"],["范委員雲：請邱部長簡單回答就好。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的質詢，除了現行的機制以外，我們有參考澳洲的作法納入兒童及少年福利權益法，關於工作證這個制度我們會積極邀請相關的部會與民間團體來研議、積極來進行。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝邱部長，也謝謝卓院長支持，我們會再繼續監督。","最後一個，雖然只有一分多鐘，部長可以請回。又回到一個非常重要、鄭副院長也會非常關心的，因為他當時是賴清德總統候選人政見的總負責人，在賴總統的政見中有一個彈性育嬰假，譬如第二行寫：實施得分次請領的彈性育嬰假及津貼。今天只有一點時間，我也要肯定洪申翰部長一上任就積極落實，只是我覺得他的回應還是語言太保守一點，你說我們還沒有放棄，你剛上任就還沒有放棄賴總統的政見，這樣子不夠積極吧！但是我也知道遇到很多的問題，我今天要問是擔心勞動部因為錢、因為行政人力，因此出來的方案太保守，你看剛剛講的是6個月。","關於人總協助支援人力，依我們的了解，勞動部遇到的問題是，好像人總不給它人力，這個涉及到就保基金申請的問題，院長是不是可以全力支持？然後還有這麼多還沒做到的婦女團體要求！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員放心，針對少子化的問題，政府有任何因應、各部會提出來的，我們都會優先採納。"],["范委員雲：好，我希望院長任內努力在6個月做到都能夠以天為單位、真正的彈性，讓大家看得到、領得到，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟勞動部會再研究。"],["范委員雲：請勞動部全力支持。"],["卓院長榮泰：朝這個方向來做思考，謝謝。"],["范委員雲：謝謝，謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員質詢、謝謝卓院長跟各部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來我們請涂權吉委員質詢，王美惠委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","蘇清泉","范雲","涂權吉","王美惠","洪孟楷","劉建國","鄭正鈐","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","李柏毅","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":79,"meetingDate":["2025-04-15"],"gazette_id":"1143401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143401_00003","1143401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1143401_00004"}}}