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\"那其實剛剛那個我們沈伯陽委員有提到就是說其實有很多國安的法其實都是要這個起頭來做處理不單單是這個陸海空軍的這個服役條例要做修正像過去我們這個從去年開始我們沈伯陽召委呢就不斷的提出這個修正這一個我們這個兩岸人民條例的第九條\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 66.583, \"end\": 66.843, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 66.843, \"end\": 68.805, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 68.805, \"end\": 69.105, \"score\": 0.726}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 69.105, \"end\": 69.405, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"沈\", \"start\": 69.405, \"end\": 69.525, \"score\": 0.672}, {\"word\": \"伯\", \"start\": 69.525, \"end\": 69.545, \"score\": 0.036}, {\"word\": \"陽\", \"start\": 69.545, \"end\": 69.725, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 69.725, \"end\": 69.846, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 69.846, \"end\": 70.066, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 70.066, \"end\": 70.266, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 70.266, \"end\": 70.446, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 70.446, \"end\": 70.566, \"score\": 0.709}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 70.566, \"end\": 70.846, \"score\": 0.59}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 70.846, \"end\": 71.106, \"score\": 0.592}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 71.106, \"end\": 71.267, \"score\": 0.593}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 71.267, \"end\": 71.447, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 71.447, \"end\": 71.707, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 71.707, \"end\": 71.847, \"score\": 0.686}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 71.847, \"end\": 72.007, \"score\": 0.735}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 72.007, \"end\": 72.187, \"score\": 0.704}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 72.187, \"end\": 72.628, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 72.628, \"end\": 72.868, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 72.868, \"end\": 73.028, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 73.028, \"end\": 73.168, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 73.168, \"end\": 73.428, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"頭\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 73.428, \"end\": 73.568, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 73.568, \"end\": 73.668, \"score\": 0.47}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 73.668, \"end\": 73.808, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 73.808, \"end\": 73.908, \"score\": 0.246}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"陸\"}, {\"word\": \"海\", \"start\": 73.908, \"end\": 74.069, \"score\": 0.702}, {\"word\": \"空\", \"start\": 74.069, \"end\": 74.089, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 74.089, \"end\": 74.109, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"服\", \"start\": 74.109, \"end\": 74.309, \"score\": 0.756}, {\"word\": \"役\", \"start\": 74.309, \"end\": 74.329, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 74.329, \"end\": 74.529, \"score\": 0.643}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 74.529, \"end\": 74.549, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 74.549, \"end\": 74.669, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 74.669, \"end\": 74.689, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 74.689, \"end\": 74.749, \"score\": 0.095}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 74.749, \"end\": 74.769, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 74.769, \"end\": 74.789, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 74.789, \"end\": 74.809, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 74.809, \"end\": 74.849, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 74.849, \"end\": 75.069, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"始\", \"start\": 75.069, \"end\": 75.129, \"score\": 0.664}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 75.129, \"end\": 75.149, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"沈\", \"start\": 75.149, \"end\": 75.169, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"伯\", \"start\": 75.169, \"end\": 75.189, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"陽\", \"start\": 75.189, \"end\": 75.249, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"召\", \"start\": 75.249, \"end\": 75.289, \"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 75.289, \"end\": 75.37, \"score\": 0.213}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 75.37, \"end\": 75.39, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 75.39, \"end\": 75.41, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 75.41, \"end\": 75.49, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"斷\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 75.49, \"end\": 75.51, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 75.51, \"end\": 75.53, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 75.53, \"end\": 75.55, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 75.55, \"end\": 75.65, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 75.65, \"end\": 75.67, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 75.67, \"end\": 75.71, \"score\": 0.007}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 75.71, \"end\": 75.73, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"岸\", \"start\": 75.73, \"end\": 75.87, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 75.87, \"end\": 75.89, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 75.89, \"end\": 76.05, \"score\": 0.621}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 76.05, \"end\": 76.21, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 76.21, \"end\": 76.27, \"score\": 0.185}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 76.27, \"end\": 76.29, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"九\", \"start\": 76.29, \"end\": 76.31, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"條\"}]}, {\"start\": 92.742, \"end\": 121.452, \"text\": \"那我本來想說今天陸委會會派至少副主委會來就沒有現在是現在因為這個兩岸人民條例的組織還是在陸委會可是因為這是跟國安有關係這個法律所以我在這邊還是要提出來像這個沈伯洋召委他從去年到現在提了這麼多次而且還有很多委員都提出來就是把這個民意代表像立法委員議員他甚至昨天召委還提出說連國會助理到中國去都也應要來報備\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 92.742, \"end\": 92.862, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 92.862, \"end\": 92.962, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 92.962, \"end\": 93.262, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 93.262, \"end\": 93.662, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 93.662, \"end\": 93.842, \"score\": 0.715}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 93.842, \"end\": 94.243, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"陸\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 94.243, \"end\": 95.083, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"派\", \"start\": 95.083, \"end\": 95.803, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 95.803, \"end\": 95.923, \"score\": 0.702}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 95.923, \"end\": 96.563, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"副\", \"start\": 96.563, \"end\": 96.683, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 96.683, \"end\": 96.803, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 96.803, \"end\": 97.284, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 97.284, \"end\": 97.524, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 97.524, \"end\": 97.704, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 97.704, \"end\": 98.024, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 98.024, \"end\": 98.304, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 98.304, \"end\": 99.364, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 99.364, \"end\": 99.744, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 99.744, \"end\": 100.225, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"岸\", \"start\": 100.225, \"end\": 100.425, \"score\": 0.716}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 100.425, 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{\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 107.047, \"end\": 107.867, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 107.867, \"end\": 109.088, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"沈\", \"start\": 109.088, \"end\": 109.208, \"score\": 0.594}, {\"word\": \"伯\", \"start\": 109.208, \"end\": 109.288, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"洋\", \"start\": 109.288, \"end\": 109.468, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"召\", \"start\": 109.468, \"end\": 109.648, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 109.648, \"end\": 110.028, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 110.028, \"end\": 110.388, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 110.388, \"end\": 110.528, \"score\": 0.685}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 110.528, \"end\": 110.688, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 110.688, \"end\": 110.988, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 110.988, \"end\": 111.188, \"score\": 0.691}, 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\"start\": 113.329, \"end\": 113.549, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 113.549, \"end\": 113.649, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 113.649, \"end\": 113.809, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 113.809, \"end\": 114.569, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 114.569, \"end\": 114.669, \"score\": 0.701}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 114.669, \"end\": 114.829, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"代\", \"start\": 114.829, \"end\": 115.07, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 115.07, \"end\": 115.23, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 115.23, \"end\": 115.37, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 115.37, \"end\": 115.49, \"score\": 0.766}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 115.49, \"end\": 115.67, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 115.67, \"end\": 116.79, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 116.79, \"end\": 116.91, \"score\": 0.717}, {\"word\": \"甚\", \"start\": 116.91, \"end\": 117.07, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 117.07, \"end\": 117.21, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"昨\", \"start\": 117.21, \"end\": 117.37, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 117.37, \"end\": 117.59, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"召\", \"start\": 117.59, \"end\": 117.73, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 117.73, \"end\": 118.031, \"score\": 0.703}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 118.031, \"end\": 118.191, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 118.191, \"end\": 119.451, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 119.451, \"end\": 119.631, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 119.631, \"end\": 119.911, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 119.911, \"end\": 120.091, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 120.091, \"end\": 120.631, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 120.631, \"end\": 120.851, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 120.851, \"end\": 121.232, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 121.232, \"end\": 121.432, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 121.432, \"end\": 121.452, \"score\": 0.448}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"備\"}]}, {\"start\": 122.632, \"end\": 151.086, \"text\": \"那當然不是禁止他們去 而是要去做這個報備可是呢 到去年到現在已經被在這個我們的程序委員會被阻擋了這個三百多次我不曉得說作為這個國防部也是屬於國安單位之一面對這樣子的這個被惡意的阻擋不曉得我們這樣子的話對國安來講是不是一個很大的漏洞因為目前這滲透真的是非常非常的嚴重可是我們相關的法令卻是不斷的被阻擋 請問\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 122.632, \"end\": 122.752, \"score\": 0.661}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 122.752, \"end\": 122.952, \"score\": 0.626}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 122.952, \"end\": 123.072, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 123.072, \"end\": 123.272, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"禁\", 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\"start\": 593.942, \"end\": 594.242, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 594.242, \"end\": 594.322, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 594.322, \"end\": 594.342, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,372 --> 00:00:02,769\n謝謝主席有請郭部長有請部長謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:09,907 --> 00:00:26,521\n是羅委員好部長好部長面對這個境外勢力的這個滲透我們可以說是這個無孔不入五花八門就連這個辦共諜案的這個憲兵隊呢也都失守了那面對這麼嚴重的這個國安問題所以相關的法令我們必須要重新的來做檢視重新的來做檢討所以這次我們沈伯陽委員才會提出了這個陸海空軍\n\n3\n00:00:37,710 --> 00:01:01,901\n這個服役條例的這個修法那當然內容剛剛部長您在國防部在做報告的時候有講得非常的清楚就是明定這個軍官士官如果犯這個內亂對外患罪經這個判刑確定的話就是有這個有期徒刑以上的這個罰則還有這個喪失領受這個退出給予的這個權利\n\n4\n00:01:06,583 --> 00:01:16,310\n那其實剛剛那個我們沈伯陽委員有提到就是說其實有很多國安的法其實都是要這個起頭來做處理不單單是這個陸海空軍的這個服役條例要做修正像過去我們這個從去年開始我們沈伯陽召委呢就不斷的提出這個修正這一個我們這個兩岸人民條例的第九條\n\n5\n00:01:32,742 --> 00:02:01,452\n那我本來想說今天陸委會會派至少副主委會來就沒有現在是現在因為這個兩岸人民條例的組織還是在陸委會可是因為這是跟國安有關係這個法律所以我在這邊還是要提出來像這個沈伯洋召委他從去年到現在提了這麼多次而且還有很多委員都提出來就是把這個民意代表像立法委員議員他甚至昨天召委還提出說連國會助理到中國去都也應要來報備\n\n6\n00:02:02,632 --> 00:02:31,086\n那當然不是禁止他們去而是要去做這個報備可是呢到去年到現在已經被在這個我們的程序委員會被阻擋了這個三百多次我不曉得說作為這個國防部也是屬於國安單位之一面對這樣子的這個被惡意的阻擋不曉得我們這樣子的話對國安來講是不是一個很大的漏洞因為目前這滲透真的是非常非常的嚴重可是我們相關的法令卻是不斷的被阻擋請問\n\n7\n00:02:32,086 --> 00:02:54,998\n部長您這邊的看法呢我想光部我們就光部本身來做應答可能比較世界一點那現在在您呈現的那個我跟委員報告就是說93條的這個部分這個是另外一條這個是這個邱志維委員之前也有提出來我再補充一點好了因為你直接要進入到這個議題\n\n8\n00:02:56,238 --> 00:03:22,671\n那我剛才提的是沈博洋委員所提出來的就是說民意代表或是這國會助理都應該到中國去其實就是還是要報備這部分那像去年的話像邱志維委員因為這兩個像這個兩個法案一我都是連署人所以我們當然會非常的關心像這邱志維委員去年也是針對的第九條之三跟第九十一條其實也有做出了一些修法可是呢還是被擋\n\n9\n00:03:23,351 --> 00:03:43,110\n到目前為止我知道都還沒有辦法在委員會裡面來排審好像說有被赴議那現在就是說好像我們這個兩岸人民條例裡面有提到就是說曾經在擔任過國防外交或大陸事務或是國安相關機關的政務副首長或少將以上的人員他才會被規範嘛\n\n10\n00:03:44,091 --> 00:03:56,563\n可是我們現在看到的很多的例子就是說其實到大陸去然後被滲透的不是只有少將以上像這個少校像去年所發生的例子前海軍艦長退役的這個少校呂詩麗她在中國參加這個\n\n11\n00:04:02,648 --> 00:04:20,434\n珠海的這個航展的時候他就提到就讚嘆這個解放軍的這個武裝然後揚言要讓台灣的觀眾說哇我們中國有多強如果他是少將的話他就受到兩岸人民條例第九條之三的規範可是因為他是少校到目前為止是無法可管的嘛對不對\n\n12\n00:04:21,656 --> 00:04:44,196\n跟委員報告就是說九之三條的這個部分那麼現在我們部會之間的分工是由就九之三條的部分是陸委會來主責那我們國防部會協同參與我們提出的意見那我們提出的意見就是說凡是在領月退縫的這個部分因為還是在領\n\n13\n00:04:45,077 --> 00:05:06,674\n越退縫的這個期間我們認為可以以這個還有越退縫的這個要件把它修改進去但是現在因為主則的部分是陸委會所以最後應該是跨部會還要再做個協調就93條的這個部分那陸委會現在也正在跟我們在討論當中\n\n14\n00:05:08,281 --> 00:05:36,860\n所以說我們的相關的單位針對九之三其實已經進入到討論的階段了對不對是不是這樣子因為剛剛我們抓委有提到說其實很多的國安的這個法令其實都是重新要做檢討我們要重新來做齊頭式的這個修正所以我們現在所看到說去年去年就已經提出來了就四個半年了我們還沒有看到就是說或許有怎麼樣的一個排審那目前面對國內的局勢說實在是非常的險峻\n\n15\n00:05:37,680 --> 00:06:05,696\n我們可以看到說從東府到地方等等這個中共的這個滲透是非常的這個恐怖滲透的這個讓我們難以想像像這個時候我們不來修國安法什麼時候再來修這個國安法那過去呢在野黨一再的這個阻擋甚至呢有在野的委員甚至還要取消這個吳斯懷條款讓我們覺得很不可思議目前國家如此的這個嚴峻居然還有在野黨委員提出就是說還要再放\n\n16\n00:06:06,956 --> 00:06:14,558\n我覺得這個部分這個是沒有辦法讓人家接受所以我們也希望說各個國安單位應該就是要皮繃得比較緊所有的國安的法條都應該拿出來重新做一個檢討那哪一個法該原的該怎麼樣處理的就怎麼處理不然的話說實在的這些人跑到中國去而且都是退役的這個軍人\n\n17\n00:06:30,081 --> 00:06:55,938\n或者是他們都還領有國家的這個興奉居然還去讚揚對方解放軍的這個武裝真的是讓人家覺得不可思議所以這部分的話我們不得不嚴厲來看待這件事情再來還有一點我們看到就是說今年我們二月的時候我們海軍有傳出就是說有志願役的這個士兵在不知情的旨下被他的母親辦理中國的身份證的這個事件\n\n18\n00:06:57,319 --> 00:07:16,073\n那國防部呢說要來做全面的這個盤查我想了解一下目前的進度我們到今天這個3月20號給我的相關的一個數據就是說我們現在清查的結果呢是應該是他現在有\n\n19\n00:07:17,091 --> 00:07:40,095\n有分成護照、身分證、定居證跟居住證那現在查到的話是大概都是屬於居住證居住證居住證居住證居住證還不到沒有定居證跟身分證或護照的狀況就是屬於居住證的證那多少人呢目前\n\n20\n00:07:41,638 --> 00:08:07,054\n如果志願役跟一年期義務加四個月軍事訓練役加起來的話在3月20號的數據是62位有到62位是目前他們在服役的單位是在哪些單位現在就是說這個服役期間的話原則上就是說不可以分花做情報蒐集資訊通信航空飛行艦艇跟研發類的這個單位\n\n21\n00:08:08,655 --> 00:08:31,173\n那也不擔任這個新式武器的裝備操作所或者主觀的水源跟從事戰情中心參謀業務或者其他這些機敏職務或工作這樣那這62位原先都不在你剛剛部長所提到的這些單位嗎還是他本來是在這些單位我們有做調整目前我們的處置是怎麼樣的一個處置方式\n\n22\n00:08:31,826 --> 00:08:50,345\n您是說原來不在原來這62人他們所屬的這個單位本來就不在基民的一些單位裡面嗎沒有因為我們志願役的部分呢實際上只有兩位志願役是兩位是因為義務役的部分跟軍事信任役的部分按照兩岸條例的規定的話他\n\n23\n00:08:51,386 --> 00:09:19,168\n不管如何他都還是會有還是不能免其義務因為他還是具有中華民國的國籍再來我們之前有提到就是說在服役的時候我們要來開始實施不具雙重國籍的切解措施這部分什麼時候來做實施您是說雙重的對雙重國籍這個部分雙重國籍的部分自願役的部分是不是我們要來實施這個部分\n\n24\n00:09:20,434 --> 00:09:33,567\n我們也一樣就是如同剛剛報告的就是說他從這個二月以來要有一個簽訂一個切結嘛\n\n25\n00:09:36,986 --> 00:09:54,342\n這個其實已經在實施了嗎?對,已經全面清查非常感謝,因為今天時間的關係,那質詢就到這裡面對國家未來這麼嚴重的滲透的情況,我想各個國安單位都是要嚴正以待以上謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n372\t2769\t謝謝主席 有請郭部長有請部長 謝謝\n9907\t26521\t是 羅委員好部長好 部長面對這個境外勢力的這個滲透我們可以說是這個無孔不入五花八門就連這個辦共諜案的這個憲兵隊呢也都失守了那面對這麼嚴重的這個國安問題所以相關的法令我們必須要重新的來做檢視重新的來做檢討所以這次我們沈伯陽委員才會提出了這個陸海空軍\n37710\t61901\t這個服役條例的這個修法那當然內容剛剛部長您在國防部在做報告的時候有講得非常的清楚就是明定這個軍官士官如果犯這個內亂對外患罪經這個判刑確定的話就是有這個有期徒刑以上的這個罰則還有這個喪失領受這個退出給予的這個權利\n66583\t76310\t那其實剛剛那個我們沈伯陽委員有提到就是說其實有很多國安的法其實都是要這個起頭來做處理不單單是這個陸海空軍的這個服役條例要做修正像過去我們這個從去年開始我們沈伯陽召委呢就不斷的提出這個修正這一個我們這個兩岸人民條例的第九條\n92742\t121452\t那我本來想說今天陸委會會派至少副主委會來就沒有現在是現在因為這個兩岸人民條例的組織還是在陸委會可是因為這是跟國安有關係這個法律所以我在這邊還是要提出來像這個沈伯洋召委他從去年到現在提了這麼多次而且還有很多委員都提出來就是把這個民意代表像立法委員議員他甚至昨天召委還提出說連國會助理到中國去都也應要來報備\n122632\t151086\t那當然不是禁止他們去 而是要去做這個報備可是呢 到去年到現在已經被在這個我們的程序委員會被阻擋了這個三百多次我不曉得說作為這個國防部也是屬於國安單位之一面對這樣子的這個被惡意的阻擋不曉得我們這樣子的話對國安來講是不是一個很大的漏洞因為目前這滲透真的是非常非常的嚴重可是我們相關的法令卻是不斷的被阻擋 請問\n152086\t174998\t部長您這邊的看法呢我想光部我們就光部本身來做應答可能比較世界一點那現在在您呈現的那個我跟委員報告就是說93條的這個部分這個是另外一條這個是這個邱志維委員之前也有提出來我再補充一點好了因為你直接要進入到這個議題\n176238\t202671\t那我剛才提的是沈博洋委員所提出來的就是說民意代表或是這國會助理都應該到中國去其實就是還是要報備這部分那像去年的話像邱志維委員因為這兩個像這個兩個法案一我都是連署人所以我們當然會非常的關心像這邱志維委員去年也是針對的第九條之三跟第九十一條其實也有做出了一些修法可是呢還是被擋\n203351\t223110\t到目前為止 我知道都還沒有辦法在委員會裡面來排審好像說有被赴議那現在就是說 好像我們這個兩岸人民條例裡面有提到就是說曾經在擔任過國防外交或大陸事務或是國安相關機關的政務副首長或少將以上的人員他才會被規範嘛\n224091\t236563\t可是我們現在看到的很多的例子就是說其實到大陸去然後被滲透的不是只有少將以上像這個少校像去年所發生的例子前海軍艦長退役的這個少校呂詩麗她在中國參加這個\n242648\t260434\t珠海的這個航展的時候他就提到就讚嘆這個解放軍的這個武裝然後揚言要讓台灣的觀眾說哇我們中國有多強如果他是少將的話他就受到兩岸人民條例第九條之三的規範可是因為他是少校到目前為止是無法可管的嘛對不對\n261656\t284196\t跟委員報告就是說九之三條的這個部分那麼現在我們部會之間的分工是由就九之三條的部分是陸委會來主責那我們國防部會協同參與我們提出的意見那我們提出的意見就是說凡是在領月退縫的這個部分因為還是在領\n285077\t306674\t越退縫的這個期間我們認為可以以這個還有越退縫的這個要件把它修改進去但是現在因為主則的部分是陸委會所以最後應該是跨部會還要再做個協調就93條的這個部分那陸委會現在也正在跟我們在討論當中\n308281\t336860\t所以說我們的相關的單位針對九之三其實已經進入到討論的階段了對不對是不是這樣子因為剛剛我們抓委有提到說其實很多的國安的這個法令其實都是重新要做檢討我們要重新來做齊頭式的這個修正所以我們現在所看到說去年去年就已經提出來了就四個半年了我們還沒有看到就是說或許有怎麼樣的一個排審那目前面對國內的局勢說實在是非常的險峻\n337680\t365696\t我們可以看到說從東府到地方等等這個中共的這個滲透是非常的這個恐怖滲透的這個讓我們難以想像像這個時候我們不來修國安法什麼時候再來修這個國安法那過去呢在野黨一再的這個阻擋甚至呢有在野的委員甚至還要取消這個吳斯懷條款讓我們覺得很不可思議目前國家如此的這個嚴峻居然還有在野黨委員提出就是說還要再放\n366956\t374558\t我覺得這個部分這個是沒有辦法讓人家接受所以我們也希望說各個國安單位應該就是要皮繃得比較緊所有的國安的法條都應該拿出來重新做一個檢討那哪一個法該原的該怎麼樣處理的就怎麼處理不然的話說實在的這些人跑到中國去而且都是退役的這個軍人\n390081\t415938\t或者是他們都還領有國家的這個興奉居然還去讚揚對方解放軍的這個武裝真的是讓人家覺得不可思議所以這部分的話我們不得不嚴厲來看待這件事情再來還有一點我們看到就是說今年我們二月的時候我們海軍有傳出就是說有志願役的這個士兵在不知情的旨下被他的母親辦理中國的身份證的這個事件\n417319\t436073\t那國防部呢說要來做全面的這個盤查我想了解一下目前的進度我們到今天這個3月20號給我的相關的一個數據就是說我們現在清查的結果呢是應該是他現在有\n437091\t460095\t有分成護照、身分證、定居證跟居住證那現在查到的話是大概都是屬於居住證居住證居住證居住證居住證還不到沒有定居證跟身分證或護照的狀況就是屬於居住證的證那多少人呢目前\n461638\t487054\t如果志願役跟一年期義務加四個月軍事訓練役加起來的話在3月20號的數據是62位有到62位是目前他們在服役的單位是在哪些單位現在就是說這個服役期間的話原則上就是說不可以分花做情報蒐集資訊通信航空飛行艦艇跟研發類的這個單位\n488655\t511173\t那也不擔任這個新式武器的裝備操作所或者主觀的水源跟從事戰情中心參謀業務或者其他這些機敏職務或工作這樣那這62位原先都不在你剛剛部長所提到的這些單位嗎還是他本來是在這些單位我們有做調整目前我們的處置是怎麼樣的一個處置方式\n511826\t530345\t您是說原來不在原來這62人他們所屬的這個單位本來就不在基民的一些單位裡面嗎沒有因為我們志願役的部分呢實際上只有兩位志願役是兩位是因為義務役的部分跟軍事信任役的部分按照兩岸條例的規定的話他\n531386\t559168\t不管如何他都還是會有還是不能免其義務因為他還是具有中華民國的國籍再來我們之前有提到就是說在服役的時候我們要來開始實施不具雙重國籍的切解措施這部分什麼時候來做實施您是說雙重的對雙重國籍這個部分雙重國籍的部分自願役的部分是不是我們要來實施這個部分\n560434\t573567\t我們也一樣就是如同剛剛報告的就是說他從這個二月以來要有一個簽訂一個切結嘛\n576986\t594342\t這個其實已經在實施了嗎?對,已經全面清查非常感謝,因為今天時間的關係,那質詢就到這裡面對國家未來這麼嚴重的滲透的情況,我想各個國安單位都是要嚴正以待以上謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請郭部長有請部長 謝謝\n是 羅委員好部長好 部長面對這個境外勢力的這個滲透我們可以說是這個無孔不入五花八門就連這個辦共諜案的這個憲兵隊呢也都失守了那面對這麼嚴重的這個國安問題所以相關的法令我們必須要重新的來做檢視重新的來做檢討所以這次我們沈伯陽委員才會提出了這個陸海空軍\n這個服役條例的這個修法那當然內容剛剛部長您在國防部在做報告的時候有講得非常的清楚就是明定這個軍官士官如果犯這個內亂對外患罪經這個判刑確定的話就是有這個有期徒刑以上的這個罰則還有這個喪失領受這個退出給予的這個權利\n那其實剛剛那個我們沈伯陽委員有提到就是說其實有很多國安的法其實都是要這個起頭來做處理不單單是這個陸海空軍的這個服役條例要做修正像過去我們這個從去年開始我們沈伯陽召委呢就不斷的提出這個修正這一個我們這個兩岸人民條例的第九條\n那我本來想說今天陸委會會派至少副主委會來就沒有現在是現在因為這個兩岸人民條例的組織還是在陸委會可是因為這是跟國安有關係這個法律所以我在這邊還是要提出來像這個沈伯洋召委他從去年到現在提了這麼多次而且還有很多委員都提出來就是把這個民意代表像立法委員議員他甚至昨天召委還提出說連國會助理到中國去都也應要來報備\n那當然不是禁止他們去 而是要去做這個報備可是呢 到去年到現在已經被在這個我們的程序委員會被阻擋了這個三百多次我不曉得說作為這個國防部也是屬於國安單位之一面對這樣子的這個被惡意的阻擋不曉得我們這樣子的話對國安來講是不是一個很大的漏洞因為目前這滲透真的是非常非常的嚴重可是我們相關的法令卻是不斷的被阻擋 請問\n部長您這邊的看法呢我想光部我們就光部本身來做應答可能比較世界一點那現在在您呈現的那個我跟委員報告就是說93條的這個部分這個是另外一條這個是這個邱志維委員之前也有提出來我再補充一點好了因為你直接要進入到這個議題\n那我剛才提的是沈博洋委員所提出來的就是說民意代表或是這國會助理都應該到中國去其實就是還是要報備這部分那像去年的話像邱志維委員因為這兩個像這個兩個法案一我都是連署人所以我們當然會非常的關心像這邱志維委員去年也是針對的第九條之三跟第九十一條其實也有做出了一些修法可是呢還是被擋\n到目前為止 我知道都還沒有辦法在委員會裡面來排審好像說有被赴議那現在就是說 好像我們這個兩岸人民條例裡面有提到就是說曾經在擔任過國防外交或大陸事務或是國安相關機關的政務副首長或少將以上的人員他才會被規範嘛\n可是我們現在看到的很多的例子就是說其實到大陸去然後被滲透的不是只有少將以上像這個少校像去年所發生的例子前海軍艦長退役的這個少校呂詩麗她在中國參加這個\n珠海的這個航展的時候他就提到就讚嘆這個解放軍的這個武裝然後揚言要讓台灣的觀眾說哇我們中國有多強如果他是少將的話他就受到兩岸人民條例第九條之三的規範可是因為他是少校到目前為止是無法可管的嘛對不對\n跟委員報告就是說九之三條的這個部分那麼現在我們部會之間的分工是由就九之三條的部分是陸委會來主責那我們國防部會協同參與我們提出的意見那我們提出的意見就是說凡是在領月退縫的這個部分因為還是在領\n越退縫的這個期間我們認為可以以這個還有越退縫的這個要件把它修改進去但是現在因為主則的部分是陸委會所以最後應該是跨部會還要再做個協調就93條的這個部分那陸委會現在也正在跟我們在討論當中\n所以說我們的相關的單位針對九之三其實已經進入到討論的階段了對不對是不是這樣子因為剛剛我們抓委有提到說其實很多的國安的這個法令其實都是重新要做檢討我們要重新來做齊頭式的這個修正所以我們現在所看到說去年去年就已經提出來了就四個半年了我們還沒有看到就是說或許有怎麼樣的一個排審那目前面對國內的局勢說實在是非常的險峻\n我們可以看到說從東府到地方等等這個中共的這個滲透是非常的這個恐怖滲透的這個讓我們難以想像像這個時候我們不來修國安法什麼時候再來修這個國安法那過去呢在野黨一再的這個阻擋甚至呢有在野的委員甚至還要取消這個吳斯懷條款讓我們覺得很不可思議目前國家如此的這個嚴峻居然還有在野黨委員提出就是說還要再放\n我覺得這個部分這個是沒有辦法讓人家接受所以我們也希望說各個國安單位應該就是要皮繃得比較緊所有的國安的法條都應該拿出來重新做一個檢討那哪一個法該原的該怎麼樣處理的就怎麼處理不然的話說實在的這些人跑到中國去而且都是退役的這個軍人\n或者是他們都還領有國家的這個興奉居然還去讚揚對方解放軍的這個武裝真的是讓人家覺得不可思議所以這部分的話我們不得不嚴厲來看待這件事情再來還有一點我們看到就是說今年我們二月的時候我們海軍有傳出就是說有志願役的這個士兵在不知情的旨下被他的母親辦理中國的身份證的這個事件\n那國防部呢說要來做全面的這個盤查我想了解一下目前的進度我們到今天這個3月20號給我的相關的一個數據就是說我們現在清查的結果呢是應該是他現在有\n有分成護照、身分證、定居證跟居住證那現在查到的話是大概都是屬於居住證居住證居住證居住證居住證還不到沒有定居證跟身分證或護照的狀況就是屬於居住證的證那多少人呢目前\n如果志願役跟一年期義務加四個月軍事訓練役加起來的話在3月20號的數據是62位有到62位是目前他們在服役的單位是在哪些單位現在就是說這個服役期間的話原則上就是說不可以分花做情報蒐集資訊通信航空飛行艦艇跟研發類的這個單位\n那也不擔任這個新式武器的裝備操作所或者主觀的水源跟從事戰情中心參謀業務或者其他這些機敏職務或工作這樣那這62位原先都不在你剛剛部長所提到的這些單位嗎還是他本來是在這些單位我們有做調整目前我們的處置是怎麼樣的一個處置方式\n您是說原來不在原來這62人他們所屬的這個單位本來就不在基民的一些單位裡面嗎沒有因為我們志願役的部分呢實際上只有兩位志願役是兩位是因為義務役的部分跟軍事信任役的部分按照兩岸條例的規定的話他\n不管如何他都還是會有還是不能免其義務因為他還是具有中華民國的國籍再來我們之前有提到就是說在服役的時候我們要來開始實施不具雙重國籍的切解措施這部分什麼時候來做實施您是說雙重的對雙重國籍這個部分雙重國籍的部分自願役的部分是不是我們要來實施這個部分\n我們也一樣就是如同剛剛報告的就是說他從這個二月以來要有一個簽訂一個切結嘛\n這個其實已經在實施了嗎?對,已經全面清查非常感謝,因為今天時間的關係,那質詢就到這裡面對國家未來這麼嚴重的滲透的情況,我想各個國安單位都是要嚴正以待以上謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.372 --> 00:02.769\n謝謝主席有請郭部長有請部長謝謝\n\n00:09.907 --> 00:26.521\n是羅委員好部長好部長面對這個境外勢力的這個滲透我們可以說是這個無孔不入五花八門就連這個辦共諜案的這個憲兵隊呢也都失守了那面對這麼嚴重的這個國安問題所以相關的法令我們必須要重新的來做檢視重新的來做檢討所以這次我們沈伯陽委員才會提出了這個陸海空軍\n\n00:37.710 --> 01:01.901\n這個服役條例的這個修法那當然內容剛剛部長您在國防部在做報告的時候有講得非常的清楚就是明定這個軍官士官如果犯這個內亂對外患罪經這個判刑確定的話就是有這個有期徒刑以上的這個罰則還有這個喪失領受這個退出給予的這個權利\n\n01:06.583 --> 01:16.310\n那其實剛剛那個我們沈伯陽委員有提到就是說其實有很多國安的法其實都是要這個起頭來做處理不單單是這個陸海空軍的這個服役條例要做修正像過去我們這個從去年開始我們沈伯陽召委呢就不斷的提出這個修正這一個我們這個兩岸人民條例的第九條\n\n01:32.742 --> 02:01.452\n那我本來想說今天陸委會會派至少副主委會來就沒有現在是現在因為這個兩岸人民條例的組織還是在陸委會可是因為這是跟國安有關係這個法律所以我在這邊還是要提出來像這個沈伯洋召委他從去年到現在提了這麼多次而且還有很多委員都提出來就是把這個民意代表像立法委員議員他甚至昨天召委還提出說連國會助理到中國去都也應要來報備\n\n02:02.632 --> 02:31.086\n那當然不是禁止他們去而是要去做這個報備可是呢到去年到現在已經被在這個我們的程序委員會被阻擋了這個三百多次我不曉得說作為這個國防部也是屬於國安單位之一面對這樣子的這個被惡意的阻擋不曉得我們這樣子的話對國安來講是不是一個很大的漏洞因為目前這滲透真的是非常非常的嚴重可是我們相關的法令卻是不斷的被阻擋請問\n\n02:32.086 --> 02:54.998\n部長您這邊的看法呢我想光部我們就光部本身來做應答可能比較世界一點那現在在您呈現的那個我跟委員報告就是說93條的這個部分這個是另外一條這個是這個邱志維委員之前也有提出來我再補充一點好了因為你直接要進入到這個議題\n\n02:56.238 --> 03:22.671\n那我剛才提的是沈博洋委員所提出來的就是說民意代表或是這國會助理都應該到中國去其實就是還是要報備這部分那像去年的話像邱志維委員因為這兩個像這個兩個法案一我都是連署人所以我們當然會非常的關心像這邱志維委員去年也是針對的第九條之三跟第九十一條其實也有做出了一些修法可是呢還是被擋\n\n03:23.351 --> 03:43.110\n到目前為止我知道都還沒有辦法在委員會裡面來排審好像說有被赴議那現在就是說好像我們這個兩岸人民條例裡面有提到就是說曾經在擔任過國防外交或大陸事務或是國安相關機關的政務副首長或少將以上的人員他才會被規範嘛\n\n03:44.091 --> 03:56.563\n可是我們現在看到的很多的例子就是說其實到大陸去然後被滲透的不是只有少將以上像這個少校像去年所發生的例子前海軍艦長退役的這個少校呂詩麗她在中國參加這個\n\n04:02.648 --> 04:20.434\n珠海的這個航展的時候他就提到就讚嘆這個解放軍的這個武裝然後揚言要讓台灣的觀眾說哇我們中國有多強如果他是少將的話他就受到兩岸人民條例第九條之三的規範可是因為他是少校到目前為止是無法可管的嘛對不對\n\n04:21.656 --> 04:44.196\n跟委員報告就是說九之三條的這個部分那麼現在我們部會之間的分工是由就九之三條的部分是陸委會來主責那我們國防部會協同參與我們提出的意見那我們提出的意見就是說凡是在領月退縫的這個部分因為還是在領\n\n04:45.077 --> 05:06.674\n越退縫的這個期間我們認為可以以這個還有越退縫的這個要件把它修改進去但是現在因為主則的部分是陸委會所以最後應該是跨部會還要再做個協調就93條的這個部分那陸委會現在也正在跟我們在討論當中\n\n05:08.281 --> 05:36.860\n所以說我們的相關的單位針對九之三其實已經進入到討論的階段了對不對是不是這樣子因為剛剛我們抓委有提到說其實很多的國安的這個法令其實都是重新要做檢討我們要重新來做齊頭式的這個修正所以我們現在所看到說去年去年就已經提出來了就四個半年了我們還沒有看到就是說或許有怎麼樣的一個排審那目前面對國內的局勢說實在是非常的險峻\n\n05:37.680 --> 06:05.696\n我們可以看到說從東府到地方等等這個中共的這個滲透是非常的這個恐怖滲透的這個讓我們難以想像像這個時候我們不來修國安法什麼時候再來修這個國安法那過去呢在野黨一再的這個阻擋甚至呢有在野的委員甚至還要取消這個吳斯懷條款讓我們覺得很不可思議目前國家如此的這個嚴峻居然還有在野黨委員提出就是說還要再放\n\n06:06.956 --> 06:14.558\n我覺得這個部分這個是沒有辦法讓人家接受所以我們也希望說各個國安單位應該就是要皮繃得比較緊所有的國安的法條都應該拿出來重新做一個檢討那哪一個法該原的該怎麼樣處理的就怎麼處理不然的話說實在的這些人跑到中國去而且都是退役的這個軍人\n\n06:30.081 --> 06:55.938\n或者是他們都還領有國家的這個興奉居然還去讚揚對方解放軍的這個武裝真的是讓人家覺得不可思議所以這部分的話我們不得不嚴厲來看待這件事情再來還有一點我們看到就是說今年我們二月的時候我們海軍有傳出就是說有志願役的這個士兵在不知情的旨下被他的母親辦理中國的身份證的這個事件\n\n06:57.319 --> 07:16.073\n那國防部呢說要來做全面的這個盤查我想了解一下目前的進度我們到今天這個3月20號給我的相關的一個數據就是說我們現在清查的結果呢是應該是他現在有\n\n07:17.091 --> 07:40.095\n有分成護照、身分證、定居證跟居住證那現在查到的話是大概都是屬於居住證居住證居住證居住證居住證還不到沒有定居證跟身分證或護照的狀況就是屬於居住證的證那多少人呢目前\n\n07:41.638 --> 08:07.054\n如果志願役跟一年期義務加四個月軍事訓練役加起來的話在3月20號的數據是62位有到62位是目前他們在服役的單位是在哪些單位現在就是說這個服役期間的話原則上就是說不可以分花做情報蒐集資訊通信航空飛行艦艇跟研發類的這個單位\n\n08:08.655 --> 08:31.173\n那也不擔任這個新式武器的裝備操作所或者主觀的水源跟從事戰情中心參謀業務或者其他這些機敏職務或工作這樣那這62位原先都不在你剛剛部長所提到的這些單位嗎還是他本來是在這些單位我們有做調整目前我們的處置是怎麼樣的一個處置方式\n\n08:31.826 --> 08:50.345\n您是說原來不在原來這62人他們所屬的這個單位本來就不在基民的一些單位裡面嗎沒有因為我們志願役的部分呢實際上只有兩位志願役是兩位是因為義務役的部分跟軍事信任役的部分按照兩岸條例的規定的話他\n\n08:51.386 --> 09:19.168\n不管如何他都還是會有還是不能免其義務因為他還是具有中華民國的國籍再來我們之前有提到就是說在服役的時候我們要來開始實施不具雙重國籍的切解措施這部分什麼時候來做實施您是說雙重的對雙重國籍這個部分雙重國籍的部分自願役的部分是不是我們要來實施這個部分\n\n09:20.434 --> 09:33.567\n我們也一樣就是如同剛剛報告的就是說他從這個二月以來要有一個簽訂一個切結嘛\n\n09:36.986 --> 09:54.342\n這個其實已經在實施了嗎?對,已經全面清查非常感謝,因為今天時間的關係,那質詢就到這裡面對國家未來這麼嚴重的滲透的情況,我想各個國安單位都是要嚴正以待以上謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.372,"end":2.769,"text":"謝謝主席 有請郭部長有請部長 謝謝"},{"start":9.907,"end":26.521,"text":"是 羅委員好部長好 部長面對這個境外勢力的這個滲透我們可以說是這個無孔不入五花八門就連這個辦共諜案的這個憲兵隊呢也都失守了那面對這麼嚴重的這個國安問題所以相關的法令我們必須要重新的來做檢視重新的來做檢討所以這次我們沈伯陽委員才會提出了這個陸海空軍"},{"start":37.71,"end":61.901,"text":"這個服役條例的這個修法那當然內容剛剛部長您在國防部在做報告的時候有講得非常的清楚就是明定這個軍官士官如果犯這個內亂對外患罪經這個判刑確定的話就是有這個有期徒刑以上的這個罰則還有這個喪失領受這個退出給予的這個權利"},{"start":66.583,"end":76.31,"text":"那其實剛剛那個我們沈伯陽委員有提到就是說其實有很多國安的法其實都是要這個起頭來做處理不單單是這個陸海空軍的這個服役條例要做修正像過去我們這個從去年開始我們沈伯陽召委呢就不斷的提出這個修正這一個我們這個兩岸人民條例的第九條"},{"start":92.742,"end":121.452,"text":"那我本來想說今天陸委會會派至少副主委會來就沒有現在是現在因為這個兩岸人民條例的組織還是在陸委會可是因為這是跟國安有關係這個法律所以我在這邊還是要提出來像這個沈伯洋召委他從去年到現在提了這麼多次而且還有很多委員都提出來就是把這個民意代表像立法委員議員他甚至昨天召委還提出說連國會助理到中國去都也應要來報備"},{"start":122.632,"end":151.086,"text":"那當然不是禁止他們去 而是要去做這個報備可是呢 到去年到現在已經被在這個我們的程序委員會被阻擋了這個三百多次我不曉得說作為這個國防部也是屬於國安單位之一面對這樣子的這個被惡意的阻擋不曉得我們這樣子的話對國安來講是不是一個很大的漏洞因為目前這滲透真的是非常非常的嚴重可是我們相關的法令卻是不斷的被阻擋 請問"},{"start":152.086,"end":174.998,"text":"部長您這邊的看法呢我想光部我們就光部本身來做應答可能比較世界一點那現在在您呈現的那個我跟委員報告就是說93條的這個部分這個是另外一條這個是這個邱志維委員之前也有提出來我再補充一點好了因為你直接要進入到這個議題"},{"start":176.238,"end":202.671,"text":"那我剛才提的是沈博洋委員所提出來的就是說民意代表或是這國會助理都應該到中國去其實就是還是要報備這部分那像去年的話像邱志維委員因為這兩個像這個兩個法案一我都是連署人所以我們當然會非常的關心像這邱志維委員去年也是針對的第九條之三跟第九十一條其實也有做出了一些修法可是呢還是被擋"},{"start":203.351,"end":223.11,"text":"到目前為止 我知道都還沒有辦法在委員會裡面來排審好像說有被赴議那現在就是說 好像我們這個兩岸人民條例裡面有提到就是說曾經在擔任過國防外交或大陸事務或是國安相關機關的政務副首長或少將以上的人員他才會被規範嘛"},{"start":224.091,"end":236.563,"text":"可是我們現在看到的很多的例子就是說其實到大陸去然後被滲透的不是只有少將以上像這個少校像去年所發生的例子前海軍艦長退役的這個少校呂詩麗她在中國參加這個"},{"start":242.648,"end":260.434,"text":"珠海的這個航展的時候他就提到就讚嘆這個解放軍的這個武裝然後揚言要讓台灣的觀眾說哇我們中國有多強如果他是少將的話他就受到兩岸人民條例第九條之三的規範可是因為他是少校到目前為止是無法可管的嘛對不對"},{"start":261.656,"end":284.196,"text":"跟委員報告就是說九之三條的這個部分那麼現在我們部會之間的分工是由就九之三條的部分是陸委會來主責那我們國防部會協同參與我們提出的意見那我們提出的意見就是說凡是在領月退縫的這個部分因為還是在領"},{"start":285.077,"end":306.674,"text":"越退縫的這個期間我們認為可以以這個還有越退縫的這個要件把它修改進去但是現在因為主則的部分是陸委會所以最後應該是跨部會還要再做個協調就93條的這個部分那陸委會現在也正在跟我們在討論當中"},{"start":308.281,"end":336.86,"text":"所以說我們的相關的單位針對九之三其實已經進入到討論的階段了對不對是不是這樣子因為剛剛我們抓委有提到說其實很多的國安的這個法令其實都是重新要做檢討我們要重新來做齊頭式的這個修正所以我們現在所看到說去年去年就已經提出來了就四個半年了我們還沒有看到就是說或許有怎麼樣的一個排審那目前面對國內的局勢說實在是非常的險峻"},{"start":337.68,"end":365.696,"text":"我們可以看到說從東府到地方等等這個中共的這個滲透是非常的這個恐怖滲透的這個讓我們難以想像像這個時候我們不來修國安法什麼時候再來修這個國安法那過去呢在野黨一再的這個阻擋甚至呢有在野的委員甚至還要取消這個吳斯懷條款讓我們覺得很不可思議目前國家如此的這個嚴峻居然還有在野黨委員提出就是說還要再放"},{"start":366.956,"end":374.558,"text":"我覺得這個部分這個是沒有辦法讓人家接受所以我們也希望說各個國安單位應該就是要皮繃得比較緊所有的國安的法條都應該拿出來重新做一個檢討那哪一個法該原的該怎麼樣處理的就怎麼處理不然的話說實在的這些人跑到中國去而且都是退役的這個軍人"},{"start":390.081,"end":415.938,"text":"或者是他們都還領有國家的這個興奉居然還去讚揚對方解放軍的這個武裝真的是讓人家覺得不可思議所以這部分的話我們不得不嚴厲來看待這件事情再來還有一點我們看到就是說今年我們二月的時候我們海軍有傳出就是說有志願役的這個士兵在不知情的旨下被他的母親辦理中國的身份證的這個事件"},{"start":417.319,"end":436.073,"text":"那國防部呢說要來做全面的這個盤查我想了解一下目前的進度我們到今天這個3月20號給我的相關的一個數據就是說我們現在清查的結果呢是應該是他現在有"},{"start":437.091,"end":460.095,"text":"有分成護照、身分證、定居證跟居住證那現在查到的話是大概都是屬於居住證居住證居住證居住證居住證還不到沒有定居證跟身分證或護照的狀況就是屬於居住證的證那多少人呢目前"},{"start":461.638,"end":487.054,"text":"如果志願役跟一年期義務加四個月軍事訓練役加起來的話在3月20號的數據是62位有到62位是目前他們在服役的單位是在哪些單位現在就是說這個服役期間的話原則上就是說不可以分花做情報蒐集資訊通信航空飛行艦艇跟研發類的這個單位"},{"start":488.655,"end":511.173,"text":"那也不擔任這個新式武器的裝備操作所或者主觀的水源跟從事戰情中心參謀業務或者其他這些機敏職務或工作這樣那這62位原先都不在你剛剛部長所提到的這些單位嗎還是他本來是在這些單位我們有做調整目前我們的處置是怎麼樣的一個處置方式"},{"start":511.826,"end":530.345,"text":"您是說原來不在原來這62人他們所屬的這個單位本來就不在基民的一些單位裡面嗎沒有因為我們志願役的部分呢實際上只有兩位志願役是兩位是因為義務役的部分跟軍事信任役的部分按照兩岸條例的規定的話他"},{"start":531.386,"end":559.168,"text":"不管如何他都還是會有還是不能免其義務因為他還是具有中華民國的國籍再來我們之前有提到就是說在服役的時候我們要來開始實施不具雙重國籍的切解措施這部分什麼時候來做實施您是說雙重的對雙重國籍這個部分雙重國籍的部分自願役的部分是不是我們要來實施這個部分"},{"start":560.434,"end":573.567,"text":"我們也一樣就是如同剛剛報告的就是說他從這個二月以來要有一個簽訂一個切結嘛"},{"start":576.986,"end":594.342,"text":"這個其實已經在實施了嗎?對,已經全面清查非常感謝,因為今天時間的關係,那質詢就到這裡面對國家未來這麼嚴重的滲透的情況,我想各個國安單位都是要嚴正以待以上謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":191,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時29分）謝謝主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席：有請部長，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：羅委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：部長好。部長，面對境外勢力的滲透，可以說是無孔不入、五花八門，就連辦共諜案的憲兵隊也都失守了，面對這麼嚴重的國安問題，針對相關法令，我們必須要重新來做檢視、檢討，所以這次沈伯洋委員才會提出陸海空軍服役條例的修法。至於內容，剛才國防部在報告的時候也講得非常清楚，明定軍官士官如果犯內亂罪、外患罪，經判刑確定的話，處以有期徒刑以上的罰則，還有喪失領受退除給與的權利。其實剛剛沈伯洋委員有提到，有很多國安的法規都是要齊頭來做處理，不單單是陸海空軍服役條例要修正，從去年開始沈伯洋召委就不斷地提出要修正兩岸人民關係條例第九條，我本來在想今天陸委會至少會派副主委來，結果沒有。現在兩岸人民關係條例的主責機關還是陸委會，可是因為這與國安的法令有關係，所以我在這邊還是要提出來。","沈伯洋召委員從去年到現在提了這麼多次，而且還有很多委員也都有提出來，民意代表如立法委員、議員，甚至昨天召委還提出連國會助理到中國去都理應要報備，不是禁止他們去，而是要做報備。可是從去年到現在已經在程序委員會被阻擋了三百多次，國防部也是屬於國安單位之一，面對這樣子被惡意的阻擋，不曉得對國安來講是不是一個很大的漏洞？因為目前滲透真的是非常非常嚴重，可是我們的相關法令卻是不斷地被阻擋，請問部長，你這邊的看法呢？"],["顧部長立雄：我們就國防部本身來做應答可能比較適切一點，現在就你呈現的條文，我跟委員報告，第九條之三的部分……"],["羅委員美玲：這是另外一條，邱志偉委員之前也有提出來，我再補充一點好了，因為你要直接進入到這個議題，我剛才提的是沈伯洋委員所提出來的，就是民意代表或是國會助理到中國去還是要報備的部分，去年邱志偉委員也有提出來，這兩個法案我都是連署人，所以我們當然會非常的關心。邱志偉委員去年也是針對第九條之三和第九十一條提出一些修法，可是還是被擋，到目前為止，我知道都還沒有辦法在委員會裡面排審，好像是因為有被復議。兩岸人民關係條例規定，曾經擔任過國防、外交、大陸事務或與國安相關機關之政務副首長或少將以上人員，才會被規範，可是我們現在看到的很多例子，其實到大陸去，然後被滲透的不是只有少將以上的人員，就像去年所發生的例子，前海軍艦長、退役少校呂禮詩去中國參加珠海航展的時候就讚嘆解放軍的武裝，揚言要讓臺灣觀眾知道「我們中國有多強」，如果他是少將的話就會受到兩岸人民關係條例第九條之三的規範，可是因為他是少校，到目前為止是無法可管的，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，針對第九條之三的部分，現在我們部會之間的分工，第九條之三的部分是陸委會來主責，國防部會協同參與提出我們的意見，我們提出的意見是，凡是在領月退俸的部分，因為還是在領月退俸的期間，我們認為可以以還有月退俸的要件把它修改進去。但是因為主責的部分是陸委會，所以就第九條之三的部分，最後應該還要跨部會再做協調，陸委會現在也正在跟我們討論當中。"],["羅委員美玲：所以相關單位針對第九條之三已經進入到討論的階段了，對不對？是不是這樣子？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["羅委員美玲：因為剛剛召委有提到，其實很多的國安法令都要重新檢討，我們要重新來做齊頭式的修正，我們看到去年就已經提出來了，可是事隔半年了，現在還沒有看到後續有什麼排審。目前國內面對的局勢，說實在是非常險竣，我們可以看到從總統府到地方等等，中共的滲透是非常恐怖，滲透的讓我們難以想像，像這個時候我們不修國安法，要什麼時候再修國安法？過去在野黨一再阻擋，甚至還有在野黨委員要取消吳斯懷條款，這讓我們覺得很不可思議。目前國家如此嚴峻，居然還有在野黨委員提出還要再放寬、放鬆，我覺得這個部分是沒有辦法讓人家接受，所以我們也希望各個國安單位應該要把皮繃緊，所有的國安法條都應該拿出來重新檢討，哪一個法該嚴、該怎麼樣處理就怎麼處理。不然說實在的，這些人跑到中國去，而且都是退役軍人，或者是他們都還領有國家的薪俸，居然還去讚揚對方解放軍的武裝，真的讓人家覺得不可思議，所以我們不得不嚴厲來看待這件事情。","再來，還有一點，我們看到今年2月的時候海軍有傳出志願役士兵在不知情下，被他的母親辦理中國身分證的事件，國防部說要做全面盤查，我想瞭解一下目前的進度。"],["顧部長立雄：到3月20日給我的相關數據，我們現在清查的結果，它分為護照、身分證、定居證和居住證，現在查到的大概都是屬於居住證，都是屬於居住證……"],["羅委員美玲：居住證？"],["顧部長立雄：居住證，沒有定居證跟身分證或護照的狀況，就是屬於居住證的部分。"],["羅委員美玲：目前多少人呢？"],["顧部長立雄：如果志願役跟一年期義務役加4個月軍事訓練役加起來的話，在3月20號的數據是62位。"],["羅委員美玲：有到62位？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["羅委員美玲：目前他們在服役的單位是在哪些單位？有做調整嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：現在就是在服役期間的話，原則上不可以分發做情報蒐集、資訊通信、航空飛行、艦艇跟研發類的單位，也不擔任新式武器的裝備操作手或者主官的隨員跟從事戰情中心參謀業務，或者其他這些機敏職務或工作。"],["羅委員美玲：這62位原先都不在剛剛部長所提到的這些單位嗎？還是他本來是在這些單位，你們有做調整，目前你們是怎麼樣的處置方式？"],["顧部長立雄：您是說原來不在……"],["羅委員美玲：原來這62人他們所屬的單位，本來就不在機敏的一些單位裡面嗎？本來就沒有，是不是？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有、沒有。因為我們志願役的部分，事實上只有兩位。"],["羅委員美玲：志願役是兩位？"],["顧部長立雄：是、是。"],["羅委員美玲：OK。"],["顧部長立雄：因為義務役的部分跟軍事訓練役的部分，按照兩岸條例的規定，不管如何他都還是不能免其義務，因為他還是具有中華民國的國籍。"],["羅委員美玲：是、是。再來，我們之前有提到在服役的時候，我們要開始實施不具雙重國籍的切結措施，這部分什麼時候來做實施？"],["顧部長立雄：您是說雙重的……"],["羅委員美玲：對、對！雙重國籍這個部分。"],["顧部長立雄：雙重國籍的部分……"],["羅委員美玲：志願役的部分，是不是我們要來實施這個部分？"],["顧部長立雄：我們也一樣，如同剛剛報告的，從2月以來也要簽立一個切結。"],["羅委員美玲：這個其實已經在實施了嘛？"],["顧部長立雄：對、對，已經全面清查完畢。"],["羅委員美玲：OK。非常感謝，因為今天時間的關係，質詢就到這裡，面對國家未來這麼嚴重的滲透情況，我想各個國安單位都是要嚴陣以待，以上，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝美玲委員，謝謝部長。","接下來有請陳俊宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-8","speakers":["沈伯洋","陳冠廷","羅美玲","陳俊宇","林楚茵","王定宇","馬文君","徐巧芯","吳宗憲","邱志偉","林憶君","黃仁"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例部分條文修正草案」案（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1143702_00005"}}}