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00:00:53,786\n一次電腦兵棋演練可是我們看到的部分就是說所有的陸海空三軍那邊參加兵棋推演的全部都管制休假對不對我們這一次的您講的是電腦輔助指揮所的演習嗎\n\n4\n00:00:59,861 --> 00:01:05,825\n因為電腦組織指揮所的演習是主要在聯合作案能力的機制還有指揮官的決策還有參謀的判斷跟計畫作為的部分所以主要都是著重在指揮官層級的部分\n\n5\n00:01:20,745 --> 00:01:24,648\n所以指揮官層級這一次也是非常重要的尤其我們是在對於不管是各級指揮所部隊科目的驗證也是驗證國防部在戰時要怎麼樣去維持正常的運作可是我們看到這一次時間把它拉長所有的三軍全部都是管制休假可是只有國防部跟中央單位雖然那邊可是卻可以正常休假\n\n6\n00:01:50,811 --> 00:01:52,392\n只有輪值的留下來對不對橫跨六日的部分目前只有參演的部分參演的我剛剛提到了我就說其實只有參演你今天既然把它拉長你又號稱最長最硬那既然所有那邊的因為你們對三軍基層的是非常嚴格的\n\n7\n00:02:14,068 --> 00:02:16,969\n所有只要那邊的全部休假都管制而且即使他沒有參與演練他只是不只輪值的要留下來而已可是我們看到剛剛部長也提到這一個部分在驗證我們所有的指揮體系\n\n8\n00:02:29,295 --> 00:02:38,419\n因為其實三軍每年都在演陸海空軍三軍他們平常也知道自己的任務跟位置所以其實他們平常也比較駕輕就熟反而比較不清楚的就是我們現在我們所有的像國防部或者中央單位的這些高師幕僚他們的指揮參謀作業因為到戰時的時候你必須要到十大戰略單位\n\n9\n00:02:53,886 --> 00:03:15,522\n就是因為你平常不知道你的任務跟位置在哪裡所以你透過這樣的演練你才要熟悉這樣的位置可是我們卻在六日的時候我們都可以正常休假對不對這一次委員一直在講那個國安部的子餐的這些人員嗎對你講可是他如果是要屬於指揮所的人員他沒有休假啊\n\n10\n00:03:23,719 --> 00:03:45,130\n都休假了,部長你再去了解一下,雖然你有參與,很清楚的知道,其實是有,都沒有休假嗎?所有參與,那邊的,那邊的有沒有休假?那邊的有沒有休假,部長讓他們講清楚好了,那邊,只要是那邊的\n\n11\n00:03:47,472 --> 00:03:52,376\n抱歉我是陸軍司令部常務長我就實際上的狀況以我們陸軍司令部而言我們司令部的幕僚雖然沒有在整個的目前所謂的指揮鏈裡面但是我們事實上也編組了向上充實國防部的我問的問題很簡單這次那邊的剛剛提到的這些國防部還有中央單位這些高司幕僚指揮參謀這些他們在\n\n12\n00:04:16,415 --> 00:04:39,446\n六日有沒有正常的休假那邊的都沒有休假那邊的都沒有休假確定那邊的都沒有休假但我必須跟委員報告我們有一些特殊事故的可能家裡面有特別的狀況需要照顧我只要說你那邊的都沒有休假包括所有的這些但是有特殊事故的他有權責長官可以做一個特殊的報告\n\n13\n00:04:39,946 --> 00:05:04,706\n特殊事故我們不會特別去追究因為你現在我們一直講演習視同作戰你讓所有的都是高強度的作業可是我們知道的訊息如果有可能就有人要負責好不好部長如果這個是正常的休假那邊人員有正常休假要有人負責好不好因為你們今天在這裡公然的說都沒有嘛\n\n14\n00:05:05,745 --> 00:05:09,668\n都沒有正常休假嘛對不對我的了解應該是那邊的人在這個這個電腦輔助組織所的這個兵隊請人應該是不會\n\n15\n00:05:15,595 --> 00:05:40,234\n不會有休假的狀況沒有正常休假沒關係我們掌握的是有那如果今天公然在這裡說通通沒有那如果有發生這樣的事情是不是有人要負責因為我們需要探討並不是要追究責任可是當你在這裡說的是不符事實的時候那就責任就要追究了好不好那會後我們再跟委員再來請教好\n\n16\n00:05:42,014 --> 00:05:46,018\n謝謝那接下來我們就今天的這個修法內容部長您是人權律師對於我們所有的權益不管它是什麼樣的身份背景其實它都應該要受到所有的一些保障\n\n17\n00:05:58,789 --> 00:06:04,114\n那我們今天看到有很多我們一直在強調很多軍人可能觸犯了像共諜啦或者相關的這些刑法對於國安造成影響的部分這個我們都認為其實應該要嚴格的去做一些處置可是我們看到今天想要修的這個權益\n\n18\n00:06:23,510 --> 00:06:34,009\n今天修法的內容是針對軍事官上司領受退出給予的權利那在這裡要請教部長我們的願板出來了嗎\n\n19\n00:06:35,522 --> 00:06:54,109\n跟委員報告這應該分兩部分一部分是屬於這個有關那個退出給予的部分那有關一部分是對敵人效忠表示對敵人為那個也就是\n\n20\n00:06:55,690 --> 00:07:12,510\n兩岸人民關係要九十三條的那個部分啦不是對敵人為效忠的表示就是九十三條九十三條是入圍的負責那另外退出機率的部分他牽扯到的有幾個法有一個是國安法的十三條有一個是部長我知道齁那這個部分是有因為\n\n21\n00:07:13,190 --> 00:07:31,132\n就法務部已經內部討論跨部會討論就是依照法務部對於國安法的13條的修訂的這個結果其他各部會包括我們的服役條例等等還有退伍費的部分那麼就配同等配合來進行修正這樣\n\n22\n00:07:32,113 --> 00:07:39,801\n部長我們到目前沒有看到院版的過去國防部只要院長院版沒有提出來或者國防部沒有主動提出來我們幾乎都是暫緩去討論或者去執行的像我們看到軍人年金改革相關的修正案軍人權益保障條例退役軍人就業促進法軍券住宅優惠條例想要這個\n\n23\n00:07:55,337 --> 00:07:59,639\n還有一個國軍退出一官兵輔導條例這個就是最簡單的就是上校子女的教育補助的這個部分當時大家提出來的時候包括我們執政黨在野黨其實大家都認同應該要有一致性可是那時候的一個理由就是說院版還沒有提出來所以就各自討論了\n\n24\n00:08:16,388 --> 00:08:20,870\n現在我們看到今天的這個條例院版也沒有提出來我們雖然軍人可能有觸犯到一些相關的一些像共諜的案子可是我們看到現在民進黨高層包括府院黨立法院所有的都已經被滲透而且非常的深入而且非常的廣泛甚至它是核心中的核心這個對大家來說其實聽到了都是覺得非常的驚恐\n\n25\n00:08:46,178 --> 00:08:52,326\n他甚至比其他的相關的一些軍人的作為因為有一些是士兵有一些是士官那相對的軍官其實他們所掌握的機敏性的資料或者他們的作為反而都是比較可能是限制性的或者局部性的\n\n26\n00:09:03,922 --> 00:09:29,554\n可是我們看到的這些涉入共諜的這些高層其實他是非常嚴重他甚至面對所有的國安的問題所有的面向所有的政策所有的外交事務其實都已經涵蓋在裡面相對的我們覺得更驚恐的是這一部分可是我們看不到我們是不是會有相應的作為我們也看到今天在總統府的憲兵這個號稱天下第一營\n\n27\n00:09:33,155 --> 00:09:35,398\n還有士林憲兵隊這個原本要抓共諜的自己都變成共諜或者像資通電軍或者海軍飛彈快艇等等的這些士官其實他們整體的薪資也不低可是他全部都被滲透我們從不管你是執政黨也好\n\n28\n00:09:49,838 --> 00:10:08,368\n或者府院高層也好或者立法院也好或者軍中也好其實被滲透的這麼深這麼廣所以我們應該要去探討的是到底為什麼發生這樣的原因第一可能我們的敵我意識已經喪失就是根本讓軍人沒有敵我意識\n\n29\n00:10:09,389 --> 00:10:14,651\n第二個就是它的中心思想像我們在很多現代史你都不教事實上它就是延續性的你讓大家清清楚楚明明白白我覺得這更容易讓大家有一個中心思想我們要怎麼樣讓我們的軍人去愛我們中華民國這個國家其實才是重點不然你再加薪或者你再嚴苛的法律都沒有用它不斷不斷的發生而且越來越多\n\n30\n00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:40,264\n而且成績越來越高這個才是最大的問題我相信部長您是律師出身你也參與過國安單位那現在整個國防體系也是你在執掌我相信會有更多的面向應該要去注意的剛剛我們提到今天要提出來的這個條例為什麼我認為還有很大的問題第一個就是我剛剛說的你院版根本沒有出來國防部質疑如果覺得這非常重要你也沒有提出修法要去修訂\n\n31\n00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,883\n那如果說只是現在這樣你就把他納為優先的我覺得是太倉促了一點那第二個你在我們修正的條文裡面我們有看到的你說如果一審確定以後就把他的退休給予全部都讓他喪屍等到真的他判決確定沒有罪的時候再還給他那這中間如果他發生生活困難呢\n\n32\n00:11:32,216 --> 00:11:36,839\n那如果他最後判決無罪的時候你是不是要付他利息或者如果他最後判決確定是無罪的時候是不是要像228一樣你必須要道歉你必須要恢復人家的名譽你今天如果這是一個非常重大的問題我們都認為如果涉犯共諜或者內亂外患\n\n33\n00:11:55,191 --> 00:12:00,352\n危害到國家的時候我們都要應該嚴刑峻罰我想這個大家都同意可是你如果光是對軍人你用這樣的程度而且裡面的條文沒有很清楚的知道比如說像我們的報告裡面有說可能一定比例先把它扣除可是你在法上沒有啊你在條文裡面根本都沒有啊所以我剛剛提到的這些問題都會是存在很大的問題這樣以後誰敢來當軍人\n\n34\n00:12:25,132 --> 00:12:41,850\n跟委員報告簡單三點第一點就是說行政院院版正在討論當中那麼原則上來講應該是在判決第一審判決之後會做部分的這個部分就我了解秀瓦的方向這是第一點第二點要加強保防意識而且要加強敵我的\n\n35\n00:12:42,310 --> 00:12:56,923\n意識這個是我們贊成的第三個我們要建立國安的共同的威脅圖像來將這個緩情報跟這個工作做好那麼我想這個都是我們應該努力的方向以上所有的\n\n36\n00:12:57,503 --> 00:12:59,987\n部長剛剛您提到的這些部分因為我們在法條上面都還沒有看到所以這樣的討論其實是太粗糙了怎麼樣把願版的提出來以後讓大家清清楚楚的知道權益應該怎麼樣被保障軍人應該要有\n\n37\n00:13:12,625 --> 00:13:24,330\n有首有為我們全力支持可是你也不知道說他判的那個輕重比如說六個月他可能不是非常重可是他是所有的退休給予全部都要喪失嗎你的標準在哪裡我們完全看不到所以我們希望院版還有國防部必須提出更好\n\n38\n00:13:31,994 --> 00:13:37,158\n然後可以真的規範到相關的這些案子不斷的層出不窮的發生而且不只軍人今天他已經滲透到所有剛剛我們說的府院黨其實這是更嚴重的問題因為他攸關我們整個決策的方向他甚至攸關到我們所有元首或者其他人的安全這個部分我想國防部也應該要一併考量我們國安單位也應該要一併考量不要\n\n39\n00:14:00,997 --> 00:14:12,608\n一直把那個圈子一直繞在一個局部的地方因為你要讓大家對我們國家更有信心而且願意真正的願意把這個志業繼續持續下去愛護我們的國家這個部分請部長就這個部分我們提出願板以後再深入的去做全面的一個探討好不好好謝謝委員子就好\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3030\t4038\t謝謝主席 麻煩請部長有請部長 謝謝\n13280\t15922\t是嗎 委員好部長早部長剛剛有委員剛好提到了王委員也提到就是說在我們漢光41號電腦兵推其實再過幾天其實就要結束了那這兩週的電腦兵推其實在過去時間沒有那麼長那這一次號稱是最長最硬的\n39535\t53786\t一次電腦兵棋演練可是我們看到的部分就是說所有的陸海空三軍那邊參加兵棋推演的全部都管制休假對不對我們這一次的您講的是電腦輔助指揮所的演習嗎\n59861\t65825\t因為電腦組織指揮所的演習是主要在聯合作案能力的機制還有指揮官的決策還有參謀的判斷跟計畫作為的部分所以主要都是著重在指揮官層級的部分\n80745\t84648\t所以指揮官層級這一次也是非常重要的尤其我們是在對於不管是各級指揮所部隊科目的驗證也是驗證國防部在戰時要怎麼樣去維持正常的運作可是我們看到這一次時間把它拉長所有的三軍全部都是管制休假可是只有國防部跟中央單位雖然那邊可是卻可以正常休假\n110811\t112392\t只有輪值的留下來對不對橫跨六日的部分目前只有參演的部分參演的我剛剛提到了我就說其實只有參演你今天既然把它拉長你又號稱最長最硬那既然所有那邊的因為你們對三軍基層的是非常嚴格的\n134068\t136969\t所有只要那邊的全部休假都管制而且即使他沒有參與演練他只是不只輪值的要留下來而已可是我們看到剛剛部長也提到這一個部分在驗證我們所有的指揮體系\n149295\t158419\t因為其實三軍每年都在演陸海空軍三軍他們平常也知道自己的任務跟位置所以其實他們平常也比較駕輕就熟反而比較不清楚的就是我們現在我們所有的像國防部或者中央單位的這些高師幕僚他們的指揮參謀作業因為到戰時的時候你必須要到十大戰略單位\n173886\t195522\t就是因為你平常不知道你的任務跟位置在哪裡所以你透過這樣的演練你才要熟悉這樣的位置可是我們卻在六日的時候我們都可以正常休假對不對這一次委員一直在講那個國安部的子餐的這些人員嗎對你講可是他如果是要屬於指揮所的人員他沒有休假啊\n203719\t225130\t都休假了,部長你再去了解一下,雖然你有參與,很清楚的知道,其實是有,都沒有休假嗎?所有參與,那邊的,那邊的有沒有休假?那邊的有沒有休假,部長讓他們講清楚好了,那邊,只要是那邊的\n227472\t232376\t抱歉我是陸軍司令部常務長我就實際上的狀況以我們陸軍司令部而言我們司令部的幕僚雖然沒有在整個的目前所謂的指揮鏈裡面但是我們事實上也編組了向上充實國防部的我問的問題很簡單這次那邊的剛剛提到的這些國防部還有中央單位這些高司幕僚指揮參謀這些他們在\n256415\t279446\t六日有沒有正常的休假那邊的都沒有休假那邊的都沒有休假確定那邊的都沒有休假但我必須跟委員報告我們有一些特殊事故的可能家裡面有特別的狀況需要照顧我只要說你那邊的都沒有休假包括所有的這些但是有特殊事故的他有權責長官可以做一個特殊的報告\n279946\t304706\t特殊事故我們不會特別去追究因為你現在我們一直講演習視同作戰你讓所有的都是高強度的作業可是我們知道的訊息如果有可能就有人要負責好不好部長如果這個是正常的休假那邊人員有正常休假要有人負責好不好因為你們今天在這裡公然的說都沒有嘛\n305745\t309668\t都沒有正常休假嘛對不對我的了解應該是那邊的人在這個這個電腦輔助組織所的這個兵隊請人應該是不會\n315595\t340234\t不會有休假的狀況沒有正常休假沒關係我們掌握的是有那如果今天公然在這裡說通通沒有那如果有發生這樣的事情是不是有人要負責因為我們需要探討並不是要追究責任可是當你在這裡說的是不符事實的時候那就責任就要追究了好不好那會後我們再跟委員再來請教好\n342014\t346018\t謝謝 那接下來我們就今天的這個修法內容部長您是人權律師對於我們所有的權益不管它是什麼樣的身份背景其實它都應該要受到所有的一些保障\n358789\t364114\t那我們今天看到有很多 我們一直在強調很多軍人可能觸犯了像共諜啦 或者相關的這些刑法對於國安造成影響的部分這個我們都認為其實應該要嚴格的去做一些處置可是我們看到今天想要修的這個權益\n383510\t394009\t今天修法的內容是針對軍事官上司領受退出給予的權利那在這裡要請教部長我們的願板出來了嗎\n395522\t414109\t跟委員報告這應該分兩部分一部分是屬於這個有關那個退出給予的部分那有關一部分是對敵人效忠表示對敵人為那個也就是\n415690\t432510\t兩岸人民關係要九十三條的那個部分啦不是對敵人為效忠的表示就是九十三條九十三條是入圍的負責那另外退出機率的部分他牽扯到的有幾個法有一個是國安法的十三條有一個是部長我知道齁那這個部分是有因為\n433190\t451132\t就法務部已經內部討論跨部會討論就是依照法務部對於國安法的13條的修訂的這個結果其他各部會包括我們的服役條例等等還有退伍費的部分那麼就配同等配合來進行修正這樣\n452113\t459801\t部長我們到目前沒有看到院版的過去國防部只要院長院版沒有提出來或者國防部沒有主動提出來我們幾乎都是暫緩去討論或者去執行的像我們看到軍人年金改革相關的修正案軍人權益保障條例退役軍人就業促進法軍券住宅優惠條例想要這個\n475337\t479639\t還有一個國軍退出一官兵輔導條例這個就是最簡單的就是上校子女的教育補助的這個部分當時大家提出來的時候包括我們執政黨在野黨其實大家都認同應該要有一致性可是那時候的一個理由就是說院版還沒有提出來所以就各自討論了\n496388\t500870\t現在我們看到今天的這個條例院版也沒有提出來我們雖然軍人可能有觸犯到一些相關的一些像共諜的案子可是我們看到現在民進黨高層包括府院黨立法院所有的都已經被滲透而且非常的深入而且非常的廣泛甚至它是核心中的核心這個對大家來說其實聽到了都是覺得非常的驚恐\n526178\t532326\t他甚至比其他的相關的一些軍人的作為因為有一些是士兵有一些是士官那相對的軍官其實他們所掌握的機敏性的資料或者他們的作為反而都是比較可能是限制性的或者局部性的\n543922\t569554\t可是我們看到的這些涉入共諜的這些高層其實他是非常嚴重他甚至面對所有的國安的問題所有的面向所有的政策所有的外交事務其實都已經涵蓋在裡面相對的我們覺得更驚恐的是這一部分可是我們看不到我們是不是會有相應的作為我們也看到今天在總統府的憲兵這個號稱天下第一營\n573155\t575398\t還有士林憲兵隊這個原本要抓共諜的自己都變成共諜或者像資通電軍或者海軍飛彈快艇等等的這些士官其實他們整體的薪資也不低可是他全部都被滲透我們從不管你是執政黨也好\n589838\t608368\t或者府院高層也好或者立法院也好或者軍中也好其實被滲透的這麼深這麼廣所以我們應該要去探討的是到底為什麼發生這樣的原因第一可能我們的敵我意識已經喪失就是根本讓軍人沒有敵我意識\n609389\t614651\t第二個就是它的中心思想像我們在很多現代史你都不教事實上它就是延續性的你讓大家清清楚楚明明白白我覺得這更容易讓大家有一個中心思想我們要怎麼樣讓我們的軍人去愛我們中華民國這個國家其實才是重點不然你再加薪或者你再嚴苛的法律都沒有用它不斷不斷的發生而且越來越多\n635000\t640264\t而且成績越來越高這個才是最大的問題我相信部長您是律師出身你也參與過國安單位那現在整個國防體系也是你在執掌我相信會有更多的面向應該要去注意的剛剛我們提到今天要提出來的這個條例為什麼我認為還有很大的問題第一個就是我剛剛說的你院版根本沒有出來國防部質疑如果覺得這非常重要你也沒有提出修法要去修訂\n665080\t668883\t那如果說只是現在這樣你就把他納為優先的我覺得是太倉促了一點那第二個你在我們修正的條文裡面我們有看到的你說如果一審確定以後就把他的退休給予全部都讓他喪屍等到真的他判決確定沒有罪的時候再還給他那這中間如果他發生生活困難呢\n692216\t696839\t那如果他最後判決無罪的時候你是不是要付他利息或者如果他最後判決確定是無罪的時候是不是要像228一樣你必須要道歉你必須要恢復人家的名譽你今天如果這是一個非常重大的問題我們都認為如果涉犯共諜或者內亂外患\n715191\t720352\t危害到國家的時候我們都要應該嚴刑峻罰我想這個大家都同意可是你如果光是對軍人你用這樣的程度而且裡面的條文沒有很清楚的知道比如說像我們的報告裡面有說可能一定比例先把它扣除可是你在法上沒有啊你在條文裡面根本都沒有啊所以我剛剛提到的這些問題都會是存在很大的問題這樣以後誰敢來當軍人\n745132\t761850\t跟委員報告簡單三點 第一點就是說行政院院版正在討論當中 那麼原則上來講應該是在判決第一審判決之後會做部分的這個部分 就我了解秀瓦的方向這是第一點第二點 要加強保防意識 而且要加強敵我的\n762310\t776923\t意識這個是我們贊成的第三個我們要建立國安的共同的威脅圖像來將這個緩情報跟這個工作做好那麼我想這個都是我們應該努力的方向以上所有的\n777503\t779987\t部長剛剛您提到的這些部分因為我們在法條上面都還沒有看到所以這樣的討論其實是太粗糙了怎麼樣把願版的提出來以後讓大家清清楚楚的知道權益應該怎麼樣被保障軍人應該要有\n792625\t804330\t有首有為我們全力支持可是你也不知道說他判的那個輕重比如說六個月他可能不是非常重可是他是所有的退休給予全部都要喪失嗎你的標準在哪裡我們完全看不到所以我們希望院版還有國防部必須提出更好\n811994\t817158\t然後可以真的規範到相關的這些案子不斷的層出不窮的發生而且不只軍人今天他已經滲透到所有剛剛我們說的府院黨其實這是更嚴重的問題因為他攸關我們整個決策的方向他甚至攸關到我們所有元首或者其他人的安全這個部分我想國防部也應該要一併考量我們國安單位也應該要一併考量不要\n840997\t852608\t一直把那個圈子一直繞在一個局部的地方因為你要讓大家對我們國家更有信心而且願意真正的願意把這個志業繼續持續下去愛護我們的國家這個部分請部長就這個部分我們提出願板以後再深入的去做全面的一個探討好不好好 謝謝委員子就好\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長有請部長 謝謝\n是嗎 委員好部長早部長剛剛有委員剛好提到了王委員也提到就是說在我們漢光41號電腦兵推其實再過幾天其實就要結束了那這兩週的電腦兵推其實在過去時間沒有那麼長那這一次號稱是最長最硬的\n一次電腦兵棋演練可是我們看到的部分就是說所有的陸海空三軍那邊參加兵棋推演的全部都管制休假對不對我們這一次的您講的是電腦輔助指揮所的演習嗎\n因為電腦組織指揮所的演習是主要在聯合作案能力的機制還有指揮官的決策還有參謀的判斷跟計畫作為的部分所以主要都是著重在指揮官層級的部分\n所以指揮官層級這一次也是非常重要的尤其我們是在對於不管是各級指揮所部隊科目的驗證也是驗證國防部在戰時要怎麼樣去維持正常的運作可是我們看到這一次時間把它拉長所有的三軍全部都是管制休假可是只有國防部跟中央單位雖然那邊可是卻可以正常休假\n只有輪值的留下來對不對橫跨六日的部分目前只有參演的部分參演的我剛剛提到了我就說其實只有參演你今天既然把它拉長你又號稱最長最硬那既然所有那邊的因為你們對三軍基層的是非常嚴格的\n所有只要那邊的全部休假都管制而且即使他沒有參與演練他只是不只輪值的要留下來而已可是我們看到剛剛部長也提到這一個部分在驗證我們所有的指揮體系\n因為其實三軍每年都在演陸海空軍三軍他們平常也知道自己的任務跟位置所以其實他們平常也比較駕輕就熟反而比較不清楚的就是我們現在我們所有的像國防部或者中央單位的這些高師幕僚他們的指揮參謀作業因為到戰時的時候你必須要到十大戰略單位\n就是因為你平常不知道你的任務跟位置在哪裡所以你透過這樣的演練你才要熟悉這樣的位置可是我們卻在六日的時候我們都可以正常休假對不對這一次委員一直在講那個國安部的子餐的這些人員嗎對你講可是他如果是要屬於指揮所的人員他沒有休假啊\n都休假了,部長你再去了解一下,雖然你有參與,很清楚的知道,其實是有,都沒有休假嗎?所有參與,那邊的,那邊的有沒有休假?那邊的有沒有休假,部長讓他們講清楚好了,那邊,只要是那邊的\n抱歉我是陸軍司令部常務長我就實際上的狀況以我們陸軍司令部而言我們司令部的幕僚雖然沒有在整個的目前所謂的指揮鏈裡面但是我們事實上也編組了向上充實國防部的我問的問題很簡單這次那邊的剛剛提到的這些國防部還有中央單位這些高司幕僚指揮參謀這些他們在\n六日有沒有正常的休假那邊的都沒有休假那邊的都沒有休假確定那邊的都沒有休假但我必須跟委員報告我們有一些特殊事故的可能家裡面有特別的狀況需要照顧我只要說你那邊的都沒有休假包括所有的這些但是有特殊事故的他有權責長官可以做一個特殊的報告\n特殊事故我們不會特別去追究因為你現在我們一直講演習視同作戰你讓所有的都是高強度的作業可是我們知道的訊息如果有可能就有人要負責好不好部長如果這個是正常的休假那邊人員有正常休假要有人負責好不好因為你們今天在這裡公然的說都沒有嘛\n都沒有正常休假嘛對不對我的了解應該是那邊的人在這個這個電腦輔助組織所的這個兵隊請人應該是不會\n不會有休假的狀況沒有正常休假沒關係我們掌握的是有那如果今天公然在這裡說通通沒有那如果有發生這樣的事情是不是有人要負責因為我們需要探討並不是要追究責任可是當你在這裡說的是不符事實的時候那就責任就要追究了好不好那會後我們再跟委員再來請教好\n謝謝 那接下來我們就今天的這個修法內容部長您是人權律師對於我們所有的權益不管它是什麼樣的身份背景其實它都應該要受到所有的一些保障\n那我們今天看到有很多 我們一直在強調很多軍人可能觸犯了像共諜啦 或者相關的這些刑法對於國安造成影響的部分這個我們都認為其實應該要嚴格的去做一些處置可是我們看到今天想要修的這個權益\n今天修法的內容是針對軍事官上司領受退出給予的權利那在這裡要請教部長我們的願板出來了嗎\n跟委員報告這應該分兩部分一部分是屬於這個有關那個退出給予的部分那有關一部分是對敵人效忠表示對敵人為那個也就是\n兩岸人民關係要九十三條的那個部分啦不是對敵人為效忠的表示就是九十三條九十三條是入圍的負責那另外退出機率的部分他牽扯到的有幾個法有一個是國安法的十三條有一個是部長我知道齁那這個部分是有因為\n就法務部已經內部討論跨部會討論就是依照法務部對於國安法的13條的修訂的這個結果其他各部會包括我們的服役條例等等還有退伍費的部分那麼就配同等配合來進行修正這樣\n部長我們到目前沒有看到院版的過去國防部只要院長院版沒有提出來或者國防部沒有主動提出來我們幾乎都是暫緩去討論或者去執行的像我們看到軍人年金改革相關的修正案軍人權益保障條例退役軍人就業促進法軍券住宅優惠條例想要這個\n還有一個國軍退出一官兵輔導條例這個就是最簡單的就是上校子女的教育補助的這個部分當時大家提出來的時候包括我們執政黨在野黨其實大家都認同應該要有一致性可是那時候的一個理由就是說院版還沒有提出來所以就各自討論了\n現在我們看到今天的這個條例院版也沒有提出來我們雖然軍人可能有觸犯到一些相關的一些像共諜的案子可是我們看到現在民進黨高層包括府院黨立法院所有的都已經被滲透而且非常的深入而且非常的廣泛甚至它是核心中的核心這個對大家來說其實聽到了都是覺得非常的驚恐\n他甚至比其他的相關的一些軍人的作為因為有一些是士兵有一些是士官那相對的軍官其實他們所掌握的機敏性的資料或者他們的作為反而都是比較可能是限制性的或者局部性的\n可是我們看到的這些涉入共諜的這些高層其實他是非常嚴重他甚至面對所有的國安的問題所有的面向所有的政策所有的外交事務其實都已經涵蓋在裡面相對的我們覺得更驚恐的是這一部分可是我們看不到我們是不是會有相應的作為我們也看到今天在總統府的憲兵這個號稱天下第一營\n還有士林憲兵隊這個原本要抓共諜的自己都變成共諜或者像資通電軍或者海軍飛彈快艇等等的這些士官其實他們整體的薪資也不低可是他全部都被滲透我們從不管你是執政黨也好\n或者府院高層也好或者立法院也好或者軍中也好其實被滲透的這麼深這麼廣所以我們應該要去探討的是到底為什麼發生這樣的原因第一可能我們的敵我意識已經喪失就是根本讓軍人沒有敵我意識\n第二個就是它的中心思想像我們在很多現代史你都不教事實上它就是延續性的你讓大家清清楚楚明明白白我覺得這更容易讓大家有一個中心思想我們要怎麼樣讓我們的軍人去愛我們中華民國這個國家其實才是重點不然你再加薪或者你再嚴苛的法律都沒有用它不斷不斷的發生而且越來越多\n而且成績越來越高這個才是最大的問題我相信部長您是律師出身你也參與過國安單位那現在整個國防體系也是你在執掌我相信會有更多的面向應該要去注意的剛剛我們提到今天要提出來的這個條例為什麼我認為還有很大的問題第一個就是我剛剛說的你院版根本沒有出來國防部質疑如果覺得這非常重要你也沒有提出修法要去修訂\n那如果說只是現在這樣你就把他納為優先的我覺得是太倉促了一點那第二個你在我們修正的條文裡面我們有看到的你說如果一審確定以後就把他的退休給予全部都讓他喪屍等到真的他判決確定沒有罪的時候再還給他那這中間如果他發生生活困難呢\n那如果他最後判決無罪的時候你是不是要付他利息或者如果他最後判決確定是無罪的時候是不是要像228一樣你必須要道歉你必須要恢復人家的名譽你今天如果這是一個非常重大的問題我們都認為如果涉犯共諜或者內亂外患\n危害到國家的時候我們都要應該嚴刑峻罰我想這個大家都同意可是你如果光是對軍人你用這樣的程度而且裡面的條文沒有很清楚的知道比如說像我們的報告裡面有說可能一定比例先把它扣除可是你在法上沒有啊你在條文裡面根本都沒有啊所以我剛剛提到的這些問題都會是存在很大的問題這樣以後誰敢來當軍人\n跟委員報告簡單三點 第一點就是說行政院院版正在討論當中 那麼原則上來講應該是在判決第一審判決之後會做部分的這個部分 就我了解秀瓦的方向這是第一點第二點 要加強保防意識 而且要加強敵我的\n意識這個是我們贊成的第三個我們要建立國安的共同的威脅圖像來將這個緩情報跟這個工作做好那麼我想這個都是我們應該努力的方向以上所有的\n部長剛剛您提到的這些部分因為我們在法條上面都還沒有看到所以這樣的討論其實是太粗糙了怎麼樣把願版的提出來以後讓大家清清楚楚的知道權益應該怎麼樣被保障軍人應該要有\n有首有為我們全力支持可是你也不知道說他判的那個輕重比如說六個月他可能不是非常重可是他是所有的退休給予全部都要喪失嗎你的標準在哪裡我們完全看不到所以我們希望院版還有國防部必須提出更好\n然後可以真的規範到相關的這些案子不斷的層出不窮的發生而且不只軍人今天他已經滲透到所有剛剛我們說的府院黨其實這是更嚴重的問題因為他攸關我們整個決策的方向他甚至攸關到我們所有元首或者其他人的安全這個部分我想國防部也應該要一併考量我們國安單位也應該要一併考量不要\n一直把那個圈子一直繞在一個局部的地方因為你要讓大家對我們國家更有信心而且願意真正的願意把這個志業繼續持續下去愛護我們的國家這個部分請部長就這個部分我們提出願板以後再深入的去做全面的一個探討好不好好 謝謝委員子就好\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.030 --> 00:04.038\n謝謝主席麻煩請部長有請部長謝謝\n\n00:13.280 --> 00:15.922\n是嗎委員好部長早部長剛剛有委員剛好提到了王委員也提到就是說在我們漢光41號電腦兵推其實再過幾天其實就要結束了那這兩週的電腦兵推其實在過去時間沒有那麼長那這一次號稱是最長最硬的\n\n00:39.535 --> 00:53.786\n一次電腦兵棋演練可是我們看到的部分就是說所有的陸海空三軍那邊參加兵棋推演的全部都管制休假對不對我們這一次的您講的是電腦輔助指揮所的演習嗎\n\n00:59.861 --> 01:05.825\n因為電腦組織指揮所的演習是主要在聯合作案能力的機制還有指揮官的決策還有參謀的判斷跟計畫作為的部分所以主要都是著重在指揮官層級的部分\n\n01:20.745 --> 01:24.648\n所以指揮官層級這一次也是非常重要的尤其我們是在對於不管是各級指揮所部隊科目的驗證也是驗證國防部在戰時要怎麼樣去維持正常的運作可是我們看到這一次時間把它拉長所有的三軍全部都是管制休假可是只有國防部跟中央單位雖然那邊可是卻可以正常休假\n\n01:50.811 --> 01:52.392\n只有輪值的留下來對不對橫跨六日的部分目前只有參演的部分參演的我剛剛提到了我就說其實只有參演你今天既然把它拉長你又號稱最長最硬那既然所有那邊的因為你們對三軍基層的是非常嚴格的\n\n02:14.068 --> 02:16.969\n所有只要那邊的全部休假都管制而且即使他沒有參與演練他只是不只輪值的要留下來而已可是我們看到剛剛部長也提到這一個部分在驗證我們所有的指揮體系\n\n02:29.295 --> 02:38.419\n因為其實三軍每年都在演陸海空軍三軍他們平常也知道自己的任務跟位置所以其實他們平常也比較駕輕就熟反而比較不清楚的就是我們現在我們所有的像國防部或者中央單位的這些高師幕僚他們的指揮參謀作業因為到戰時的時候你必須要到十大戰略單位\n\n02:53.886 --> 03:15.522\n就是因為你平常不知道你的任務跟位置在哪裡所以你透過這樣的演練你才要熟悉這樣的位置可是我們卻在六日的時候我們都可以正常休假對不對這一次委員一直在講那個國安部的子餐的這些人員嗎對你講可是他如果是要屬於指揮所的人員他沒有休假啊\n\n03:23.719 --> 03:45.130\n都休假了,部長你再去了解一下,雖然你有參與,很清楚的知道,其實是有,都沒有休假嗎?所有參與,那邊的,那邊的有沒有休假?那邊的有沒有休假,部長讓他們講清楚好了,那邊,只要是那邊的\n\n03:47.472 --> 03:52.376\n抱歉我是陸軍司令部常務長我就實際上的狀況以我們陸軍司令部而言我們司令部的幕僚雖然沒有在整個的目前所謂的指揮鏈裡面但是我們事實上也編組了向上充實國防部的我問的問題很簡單這次那邊的剛剛提到的這些國防部還有中央單位這些高司幕僚指揮參謀這些他們在\n\n04:16.415 --> 04:39.446\n六日有沒有正常的休假那邊的都沒有休假那邊的都沒有休假確定那邊的都沒有休假但我必須跟委員報告我們有一些特殊事故的可能家裡面有特別的狀況需要照顧我只要說你那邊的都沒有休假包括所有的這些但是有特殊事故的他有權責長官可以做一個特殊的報告\n\n04:39.946 --> 05:04.706\n特殊事故我們不會特別去追究因為你現在我們一直講演習視同作戰你讓所有的都是高強度的作業可是我們知道的訊息如果有可能就有人要負責好不好部長如果這個是正常的休假那邊人員有正常休假要有人負責好不好因為你們今天在這裡公然的說都沒有嘛\n\n05:05.745 --> 05:09.668\n都沒有正常休假嘛對不對我的了解應該是那邊的人在這個這個電腦輔助組織所的這個兵隊請人應該是不會\n\n05:15.595 --> 05:40.234\n不會有休假的狀況沒有正常休假沒關係我們掌握的是有那如果今天公然在這裡說通通沒有那如果有發生這樣的事情是不是有人要負責因為我們需要探討並不是要追究責任可是當你在這裡說的是不符事實的時候那就責任就要追究了好不好那會後我們再跟委員再來請教好\n\n05:42.014 --> 05:46.018\n謝謝那接下來我們就今天的這個修法內容部長您是人權律師對於我們所有的權益不管它是什麼樣的身份背景其實它都應該要受到所有的一些保障\n\n05:58.789 --> 06:04.114\n那我們今天看到有很多我們一直在強調很多軍人可能觸犯了像共諜啦或者相關的這些刑法對於國安造成影響的部分這個我們都認為其實應該要嚴格的去做一些處置可是我們看到今天想要修的這個權益\n\n06:23.510 --> 06:34.009\n今天修法的內容是針對軍事官上司領受退出給予的權利那在這裡要請教部長我們的願板出來了嗎\n\n06:35.522 --> 06:54.109\n跟委員報告這應該分兩部分一部分是屬於這個有關那個退出給予的部分那有關一部分是對敵人效忠表示對敵人為那個也就是\n\n06:55.690 --> 07:12.510\n兩岸人民關係要九十三條的那個部分啦不是對敵人為效忠的表示就是九十三條九十三條是入圍的負責那另外退出機率的部分他牽扯到的有幾個法有一個是國安法的十三條有一個是部長我知道齁那這個部分是有因為\n\n07:13.190 --> 07:31.132\n就法務部已經內部討論跨部會討論就是依照法務部對於國安法的13條的修訂的這個結果其他各部會包括我們的服役條例等等還有退伍費的部分那麼就配同等配合來進行修正這樣\n\n07:32.113 --> 07:39.801\n部長我們到目前沒有看到院版的過去國防部只要院長院版沒有提出來或者國防部沒有主動提出來我們幾乎都是暫緩去討論或者去執行的像我們看到軍人年金改革相關的修正案軍人權益保障條例退役軍人就業促進法軍券住宅優惠條例想要這個\n\n07:55.337 --> 07:59.639\n還有一個國軍退出一官兵輔導條例這個就是最簡單的就是上校子女的教育補助的這個部分當時大家提出來的時候包括我們執政黨在野黨其實大家都認同應該要有一致性可是那時候的一個理由就是說院版還沒有提出來所以就各自討論了\n\n08:16.388 --> 08:20.870\n現在我們看到今天的這個條例院版也沒有提出來我們雖然軍人可能有觸犯到一些相關的一些像共諜的案子可是我們看到現在民進黨高層包括府院黨立法院所有的都已經被滲透而且非常的深入而且非常的廣泛甚至它是核心中的核心這個對大家來說其實聽到了都是覺得非常的驚恐\n\n08:46.178 --> 08:52.326\n他甚至比其他的相關的一些軍人的作為因為有一些是士兵有一些是士官那相對的軍官其實他們所掌握的機敏性的資料或者他們的作為反而都是比較可能是限制性的或者局部性的\n\n09:03.922 --> 09:29.554\n可是我們看到的這些涉入共諜的這些高層其實他是非常嚴重他甚至面對所有的國安的問題所有的面向所有的政策所有的外交事務其實都已經涵蓋在裡面相對的我們覺得更驚恐的是這一部分可是我們看不到我們是不是會有相應的作為我們也看到今天在總統府的憲兵這個號稱天下第一營\n\n09:33.155 --> 09:35.398\n還有士林憲兵隊這個原本要抓共諜的自己都變成共諜或者像資通電軍或者海軍飛彈快艇等等的這些士官其實他們整體的薪資也不低可是他全部都被滲透我們從不管你是執政黨也好\n\n09:49.838 --> 10:08.368\n或者府院高層也好或者立法院也好或者軍中也好其實被滲透的這麼深這麼廣所以我們應該要去探討的是到底為什麼發生這樣的原因第一可能我們的敵我意識已經喪失就是根本讓軍人沒有敵我意識\n\n10:09.389 --> 10:14.651\n第二個就是它的中心思想像我們在很多現代史你都不教事實上它就是延續性的你讓大家清清楚楚明明白白我覺得這更容易讓大家有一個中心思想我們要怎麼樣讓我們的軍人去愛我們中華民國這個國家其實才是重點不然你再加薪或者你再嚴苛的法律都沒有用它不斷不斷的發生而且越來越多\n\n10:35.000 --> 10:40.264\n而且成績越來越高這個才是最大的問題我相信部長您是律師出身你也參與過國安單位那現在整個國防體系也是你在執掌我相信會有更多的面向應該要去注意的剛剛我們提到今天要提出來的這個條例為什麼我認為還有很大的問題第一個就是我剛剛說的你院版根本沒有出來國防部質疑如果覺得這非常重要你也沒有提出修法要去修訂\n\n11:05.080 --> 11:08.883\n那如果說只是現在這樣你就把他納為優先的我覺得是太倉促了一點那第二個你在我們修正的條文裡面我們有看到的你說如果一審確定以後就把他的退休給予全部都讓他喪屍等到真的他判決確定沒有罪的時候再還給他那這中間如果他發生生活困難呢\n\n11:32.216 --> 11:36.839\n那如果他最後判決無罪的時候你是不是要付他利息或者如果他最後判決確定是無罪的時候是不是要像228一樣你必須要道歉你必須要恢復人家的名譽你今天如果這是一個非常重大的問題我們都認為如果涉犯共諜或者內亂外患\n\n11:55.191 --> 12:00.352\n危害到國家的時候我們都要應該嚴刑峻罰我想這個大家都同意可是你如果光是對軍人你用這樣的程度而且裡面的條文沒有很清楚的知道比如說像我們的報告裡面有說可能一定比例先把它扣除可是你在法上沒有啊你在條文裡面根本都沒有啊所以我剛剛提到的這些問題都會是存在很大的問題這樣以後誰敢來當軍人\n\n12:25.132 --> 12:41.850\n跟委員報告簡單三點第一點就是說行政院院版正在討論當中那麼原則上來講應該是在判決第一審判決之後會做部分的這個部分就我了解秀瓦的方向這是第一點第二點要加強保防意識而且要加強敵我的\n\n12:42.310 --> 12:56.923\n意識這個是我們贊成的第三個我們要建立國安的共同的威脅圖像來將這個緩情報跟這個工作做好那麼我想這個都是我們應該努力的方向以上所有的\n\n12:57.503 --> 12:59.987\n部長剛剛您提到的這些部分因為我們在法條上面都還沒有看到所以這樣的討論其實是太粗糙了怎麼樣把願版的提出來以後讓大家清清楚楚的知道權益應該怎麼樣被保障軍人應該要有\n\n13:12.625 --> 13:24.330\n有首有為我們全力支持可是你也不知道說他判的那個輕重比如說六個月他可能不是非常重可是他是所有的退休給予全部都要喪失嗎你的標準在哪裡我們完全看不到所以我們希望院版還有國防部必須提出更好\n\n13:31.994 --> 13:37.158\n然後可以真的規範到相關的這些案子不斷的層出不窮的發生而且不只軍人今天他已經滲透到所有剛剛我們說的府院黨其實這是更嚴重的問題因為他攸關我們整個決策的方向他甚至攸關到我們所有元首或者其他人的安全這個部分我想國防部也應該要一併考量我們國安單位也應該要一併考量不要\n\n14:00.997 --> 14:12.608\n一直把那個圈子一直繞在一個局部的地方因為你要讓大家對我們國家更有信心而且願意真正的願意把這個志業繼續持續下去愛護我們的國家這個部分請部長就這個部分我們提出願板以後再深入的去做全面的一個探討好不好好謝謝委員子就好\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.03,"end":4.038,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長有請部長 謝謝"},{"start":13.28,"end":15.922,"text":"是嗎 委員好部長早部長剛剛有委員剛好提到了王委員也提到就是說在我們漢光41號電腦兵推其實再過幾天其實就要結束了那這兩週的電腦兵推其實在過去時間沒有那麼長那這一次號稱是最長最硬的"},{"start":39.535,"end":53.786,"text":"一次電腦兵棋演練可是我們看到的部分就是說所有的陸海空三軍那邊參加兵棋推演的全部都管制休假對不對我們這一次的您講的是電腦輔助指揮所的演習嗎"},{"start":59.861,"end":65.825,"text":"因為電腦組織指揮所的演習是主要在聯合作案能力的機制還有指揮官的決策還有參謀的判斷跟計畫作為的部分所以主要都是著重在指揮官層級的部分"},{"start":80.745,"end":84.648,"text":"所以指揮官層級這一次也是非常重要的尤其我們是在對於不管是各級指揮所部隊科目的驗證也是驗證國防部在戰時要怎麼樣去維持正常的運作可是我們看到這一次時間把它拉長所有的三軍全部都是管制休假可是只有國防部跟中央單位雖然那邊可是卻可以正常休假"},{"start":110.811,"end":112.392,"text":"只有輪值的留下來對不對橫跨六日的部分目前只有參演的部分參演的我剛剛提到了我就說其實只有參演你今天既然把它拉長你又號稱最長最硬那既然所有那邊的因為你們對三軍基層的是非常嚴格的"},{"start":134.068,"end":136.969,"text":"所有只要那邊的全部休假都管制而且即使他沒有參與演練他只是不只輪值的要留下來而已可是我們看到剛剛部長也提到這一個部分在驗證我們所有的指揮體系"},{"start":149.295,"end":158.419,"text":"因為其實三軍每年都在演陸海空軍三軍他們平常也知道自己的任務跟位置所以其實他們平常也比較駕輕就熟反而比較不清楚的就是我們現在我們所有的像國防部或者中央單位的這些高師幕僚他們的指揮參謀作業因為到戰時的時候你必須要到十大戰略單位"},{"start":173.886,"end":195.522,"text":"就是因為你平常不知道你的任務跟位置在哪裡所以你透過這樣的演練你才要熟悉這樣的位置可是我們卻在六日的時候我們都可以正常休假對不對這一次委員一直在講那個國安部的子餐的這些人員嗎對你講可是他如果是要屬於指揮所的人員他沒有休假啊"},{"start":203.719,"end":225.13,"text":"都休假了,部長你再去了解一下,雖然你有參與,很清楚的知道,其實是有,都沒有休假嗎?所有參與,那邊的,那邊的有沒有休假?那邊的有沒有休假,部長讓他們講清楚好了,那邊,只要是那邊的"},{"start":227.472,"end":232.376,"text":"抱歉我是陸軍司令部常務長我就實際上的狀況以我們陸軍司令部而言我們司令部的幕僚雖然沒有在整個的目前所謂的指揮鏈裡面但是我們事實上也編組了向上充實國防部的我問的問題很簡單這次那邊的剛剛提到的這些國防部還有中央單位這些高司幕僚指揮參謀這些他們在"},{"start":256.415,"end":279.446,"text":"六日有沒有正常的休假那邊的都沒有休假那邊的都沒有休假確定那邊的都沒有休假但我必須跟委員報告我們有一些特殊事故的可能家裡面有特別的狀況需要照顧我只要說你那邊的都沒有休假包括所有的這些但是有特殊事故的他有權責長官可以做一個特殊的報告"},{"start":279.946,"end":304.706,"text":"特殊事故我們不會特別去追究因為你現在我們一直講演習視同作戰你讓所有的都是高強度的作業可是我們知道的訊息如果有可能就有人要負責好不好部長如果這個是正常的休假那邊人員有正常休假要有人負責好不好因為你們今天在這裡公然的說都沒有嘛"},{"start":305.745,"end":309.668,"text":"都沒有正常休假嘛對不對我的了解應該是那邊的人在這個這個電腦輔助組織所的這個兵隊請人應該是不會"},{"start":315.595,"end":340.234,"text":"不會有休假的狀況沒有正常休假沒關係我們掌握的是有那如果今天公然在這裡說通通沒有那如果有發生這樣的事情是不是有人要負責因為我們需要探討並不是要追究責任可是當你在這裡說的是不符事實的時候那就責任就要追究了好不好那會後我們再跟委員再來請教好"},{"start":342.014,"end":346.018,"text":"謝謝 那接下來我們就今天的這個修法內容部長您是人權律師對於我們所有的權益不管它是什麼樣的身份背景其實它都應該要受到所有的一些保障"},{"start":358.789,"end":364.114,"text":"那我們今天看到有很多 我們一直在強調很多軍人可能觸犯了像共諜啦 或者相關的這些刑法對於國安造成影響的部分這個我們都認為其實應該要嚴格的去做一些處置可是我們看到今天想要修的這個權益"},{"start":383.51,"end":394.009,"text":"今天修法的內容是針對軍事官上司領受退出給予的權利那在這裡要請教部長我們的願板出來了嗎"},{"start":395.522,"end":414.109,"text":"跟委員報告這應該分兩部分一部分是屬於這個有關那個退出給予的部分那有關一部分是對敵人效忠表示對敵人為那個也就是"},{"start":415.69,"end":432.51,"text":"兩岸人民關係要九十三條的那個部分啦不是對敵人為效忠的表示就是九十三條九十三條是入圍的負責那另外退出機率的部分他牽扯到的有幾個法有一個是國安法的十三條有一個是部長我知道齁那這個部分是有因為"},{"start":433.19,"end":451.132,"text":"就法務部已經內部討論跨部會討論就是依照法務部對於國安法的13條的修訂的這個結果其他各部會包括我們的服役條例等等還有退伍費的部分那麼就配同等配合來進行修正這樣"},{"start":452.113,"end":459.801,"text":"部長我們到目前沒有看到院版的過去國防部只要院長院版沒有提出來或者國防部沒有主動提出來我們幾乎都是暫緩去討論或者去執行的像我們看到軍人年金改革相關的修正案軍人權益保障條例退役軍人就業促進法軍券住宅優惠條例想要這個"},{"start":475.337,"end":479.639,"text":"還有一個國軍退出一官兵輔導條例這個就是最簡單的就是上校子女的教育補助的這個部分當時大家提出來的時候包括我們執政黨在野黨其實大家都認同應該要有一致性可是那時候的一個理由就是說院版還沒有提出來所以就各自討論了"},{"start":496.388,"end":500.87,"text":"現在我們看到今天的這個條例院版也沒有提出來我們雖然軍人可能有觸犯到一些相關的一些像共諜的案子可是我們看到現在民進黨高層包括府院黨立法院所有的都已經被滲透而且非常的深入而且非常的廣泛甚至它是核心中的核心這個對大家來說其實聽到了都是覺得非常的驚恐"},{"start":526.178,"end":532.326,"text":"他甚至比其他的相關的一些軍人的作為因為有一些是士兵有一些是士官那相對的軍官其實他們所掌握的機敏性的資料或者他們的作為反而都是比較可能是限制性的或者局部性的"},{"start":543.922,"end":569.554,"text":"可是我們看到的這些涉入共諜的這些高層其實他是非常嚴重他甚至面對所有的國安的問題所有的面向所有的政策所有的外交事務其實都已經涵蓋在裡面相對的我們覺得更驚恐的是這一部分可是我們看不到我們是不是會有相應的作為我們也看到今天在總統府的憲兵這個號稱天下第一營"},{"start":573.155,"end":575.398,"text":"還有士林憲兵隊這個原本要抓共諜的自己都變成共諜或者像資通電軍或者海軍飛彈快艇等等的這些士官其實他們整體的薪資也不低可是他全部都被滲透我們從不管你是執政黨也好"},{"start":589.838,"end":608.368,"text":"或者府院高層也好或者立法院也好或者軍中也好其實被滲透的這麼深這麼廣所以我們應該要去探討的是到底為什麼發生這樣的原因第一可能我們的敵我意識已經喪失就是根本讓軍人沒有敵我意識"},{"start":609.389,"end":614.651,"text":"第二個就是它的中心思想像我們在很多現代史你都不教事實上它就是延續性的你讓大家清清楚楚明明白白我覺得這更容易讓大家有一個中心思想我們要怎麼樣讓我們的軍人去愛我們中華民國這個國家其實才是重點不然你再加薪或者你再嚴苛的法律都沒有用它不斷不斷的發生而且越來越多"},{"start":635,"end":640.264,"text":"而且成績越來越高這個才是最大的問題我相信部長您是律師出身你也參與過國安單位那現在整個國防體系也是你在執掌我相信會有更多的面向應該要去注意的剛剛我們提到今天要提出來的這個條例為什麼我認為還有很大的問題第一個就是我剛剛說的你院版根本沒有出來國防部質疑如果覺得這非常重要你也沒有提出修法要去修訂"},{"start":665.08,"end":668.883,"text":"那如果說只是現在這樣你就把他納為優先的我覺得是太倉促了一點那第二個你在我們修正的條文裡面我們有看到的你說如果一審確定以後就把他的退休給予全部都讓他喪屍等到真的他判決確定沒有罪的時候再還給他那這中間如果他發生生活困難呢"},{"start":692.216,"end":696.839,"text":"那如果他最後判決無罪的時候你是不是要付他利息或者如果他最後判決確定是無罪的時候是不是要像228一樣你必須要道歉你必須要恢復人家的名譽你今天如果這是一個非常重大的問題我們都認為如果涉犯共諜或者內亂外患"},{"start":715.191,"end":720.352,"text":"危害到國家的時候我們都要應該嚴刑峻罰我想這個大家都同意可是你如果光是對軍人你用這樣的程度而且裡面的條文沒有很清楚的知道比如說像我們的報告裡面有說可能一定比例先把它扣除可是你在法上沒有啊你在條文裡面根本都沒有啊所以我剛剛提到的這些問題都會是存在很大的問題這樣以後誰敢來當軍人"},{"start":745.132,"end":761.85,"text":"跟委員報告簡單三點 第一點就是說行政院院版正在討論當中 那麼原則上來講應該是在判決第一審判決之後會做部分的這個部分 就我了解秀瓦的方向這是第一點第二點 要加強保防意識 而且要加強敵我的"},{"start":762.31,"end":776.923,"text":"意識這個是我們贊成的第三個我們要建立國安的共同的威脅圖像來將這個緩情報跟這個工作做好那麼我想這個都是我們應該努力的方向以上所有的"},{"start":777.503,"end":779.987,"text":"部長剛剛您提到的這些部分因為我們在法條上面都還沒有看到所以這樣的討論其實是太粗糙了怎麼樣把願版的提出來以後讓大家清清楚楚的知道權益應該怎麼樣被保障軍人應該要有"},{"start":792.625,"end":804.33,"text":"有首有為我們全力支持可是你也不知道說他判的那個輕重比如說六個月他可能不是非常重可是他是所有的退休給予全部都要喪失嗎你的標準在哪裡我們完全看不到所以我們希望院版還有國防部必須提出更好"},{"start":811.994,"end":817.158,"text":"然後可以真的規範到相關的這些案子不斷的層出不窮的發生而且不只軍人今天他已經滲透到所有剛剛我們說的府院黨其實這是更嚴重的問題因為他攸關我們整個決策的方向他甚至攸關到我們所有元首或者其他人的安全這個部分我想國防部也應該要一併考量我們國安單位也應該要一併考量不要"},{"start":840.997,"end":852.608,"text":"一直把那個圈子一直繞在一個局部的地方因為你要讓大家對我們國家更有信心而且願意真正的願意把這個志業繼續持續下去愛護我們的國家這個部分請部長就這個部分我們提出願板以後再深入的去做全面的一個探討好不好好 謝謝委員子就好"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":357,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時17分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：有請部長，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長早。剛剛也有委員提到、王委員也提到了，我們漢光41號電腦兵推再過幾天就要結束了，這次兩週的電腦兵推，其實過去時間沒有那麼長，這一次號稱是最長、最硬的電腦兵棋演練，就我們看到的部分，所有的陸、海、空三軍參加兵棋推演的，全部都管制休假，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：我們這一次……您講的是電腦輔助指揮所的演習嗎？"],["馬委員文君：就是這一次電腦兵棋推演的部分。"],["顧部長立雄：因為電腦輔助指揮所的演習，主要是就聯合作戰能力的機制，還有指揮官的決策，然後還有參謀的判斷跟計畫作為，所以都是著重在指揮官層級的部分。"],["馬委員文君：對，指揮官層級這一次也是非常重要的，尤其對於不管是各級指揮所部隊科目的驗證上，也是驗證國防部在戰時要怎麼樣去維持正常的運作。可是我們看到這一次時間拉長，所有的三軍全部都是管制休假，卻只有國防部跟中央單位的納編人員可以正常休假，只有輪值的留下來，對不對？橫跨六、日的部分。"],["彭助理次長國洲：報告委員，目前只有參演的主官……"],["馬委員文君：我剛剛提到了，你說只有參演，你今天既然把它拉長，又號稱最長、最硬，因為你們對三軍基層是非常嚴格的，所有只要納編的全部都管制休假，而且即使他沒有參與演練，不只有輪值的要留下來而已。剛剛部長也提到，這一個部分在驗證我們所有的指揮體系，其實三軍每年都在演，陸、海、空三軍平常也知道自己的任務跟位置，所以他們也比較駕輕就熟，反而比較不清楚的，就是我們所有像國防部或者中央單位的這些高司幕僚的指揮參謀作業，因為到戰時，你必須要到十大戰略單位，就是因為平常不知道你的任務跟位置在哪裡，所以你才透過演練要熟悉這樣的位置，可是在六、日的時候，我們都可以正常休假，對不對？我指這一次。"],["顧部長立雄：委員的意思是在講國防部指參的這些人員嗎？"],["馬委員文君：對。"],["彭助理次長國洲：包含指揮所的……"],["馬委員文君：對。"],["顧部長立雄：可是他如果是屬於指揮所的人員，他沒有休假啊！"],["馬委員文君：都休假了，部長，你再去了解一下，雖然你有參與……但我們很清楚的知道，其實是有……"],["彭助理次長國洲：沒有，沒有這個狀況。"],["馬委員文君：都沒有休假嗎？"],["彭助理次長國洲：沒有。"],["馬委員文君：所以有參與納編的，有沒有休假？部長，納編的有沒有休假？讓他們講清楚好了，只要是納編的……"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，我是陸軍司令部參謀長，就實際上的狀況，以我們陸軍司令部而言，我們司令部的幕僚，雖然沒有在目前整個所謂的指揮鏈裡面，但是我們事實上也編組了向上充實國防部必要的中心，也到各作戰區……"],["馬委員文君：我剛剛問的問題很簡單，這一次納編的，剛剛提到這些國防部還有中央單位高司幕僚、指揮參謀，他們在六、日有沒有正常的休假？"],["陳參謀長建義：納編的都沒有休假。"],["馬委員文君：納編的都沒有休假，確定？"],["陳參謀長建義：對，包含我們都……"],["馬委員文君：納編的都沒有休假？"],["陳參謀長建義：對，但我必須跟委員報告，我們有一些特殊事故的，可能家裡面有特別的狀況需要照顧的，我們還是有核……"],["馬委員文君：沒有，我只要知道你納編的都沒有休假，包括所有的……"],["陳參謀長建義：納編的都沒有休假，但是有特殊事故的，他會有權責長官，可以做一個特殊的報告。"],["馬委員文君：特殊事故我們不會特別去追究，因為我們一直講演習視同作戰，你讓所有的都是高強度的作業，可是我們知道的訊息，如果有，可能就有人要負責，好不好？部長，如果納編人員有正常休假，要有人負責，好不好？因為你們今天在這裡公然說都沒有嘛，所有納編的人員都沒有正常休假嘛，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：據我的了解，納編的人在電腦輔助指揮所的兵推期間，應該不會有休假的狀況。"],["馬委員文君：沒有正常休假？沒關係，我們掌握的是有，如果今天公然在這裡說通通沒有，但有發生這樣的事情，是不是有人要負責？因為我們需要探討，並不是要追究責任，可是當你在這裡說的不符事實的時候，責任就要追究了，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：會後我們再跟委員來請教。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝。接下來，我們就今天的修法內容，部長您是人權律師，對於我們所有的權益，不管他是什麼樣的身分背景，其實都應該要受到一些保障，我們一直在強調，今天看到很多軍人，可能觸犯了像共諜或者相關的這些刑法，對於國安造成影響的部分，這個我們都認為應該要嚴格的去做一些處置。可是我們看到今天想要修的權益，今天修法的內容是針對軍事官喪失領受退除給與的權利，在這裡要請教部長，我們的院版出來了嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，這應該要分成兩部分，一部分是有關退除給與的部分，另一部分是對敵人效忠表示，更正，不是對敵人效忠表示，就是兩岸人民關係條例第九十三條的部分。第九十三條是陸委會負責，另外退除給與的部分牽扯到有幾個法，有一個是國安法的第十三條，有一個是……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我知道那個有很多條……"],["顧部長立雄：這個部分因為法務部已經內部討論、跨部會討論，依照法務部對於國安法第十三條修訂的結果，其他部會包括我們的服役條例等等，還有退伍費的部分，就等配合來進行修正。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們到目前沒有看到院版的，過去國防部只要院版沒有提出來，或者國防部沒有主動提出來，我們幾乎都是暫緩討論或者執行的。像我們看到軍人年金改革相關的修正案、軍人權益保障條例、退役軍人就業促進法、軍眷住宅優惠條例，還有國軍退除役官兵輔導條例，最簡單的就上校子女教育補助的這個部分，當時大家提出來的時候，包括我們執政黨、在野黨，其實大家都認同應該要有一致性，可是那時候的理由就是院版還沒有提出來，所以就擱置討論了。","我們看到今天的這個條例，院版也沒有提出來，雖然軍人可能有觸犯一些相關像共諜的案子，可是我們看到現在民進黨高層，包括府、院、黨、立法院所有的都已經被滲透，而且非常的深入、非常的廣泛，甚至他是核心中的核心，這個對大家來說，其實聽到都是覺得非常的驚恐，他甚至比其他相關的一些軍人的作為……因為有一些是士兵，有一些是士官，反而軍官所掌握機敏性的資料或者作為，相對的都可能比較是限制性的或者局部性的，可是我們看到這些涉入共諜的高層，其實是非常嚴重，他甚至是面對所有國安的問題、所有的面向、所有的政策、所有的外交事務，這些其實都已經涵蓋在裡面。相對地我們覺得更驚恐的是這一部分，可是看不到我們是不是會有相應的作為。","我們也看到今天在總統府的憲兵、號稱天下第一營，還有士林憲兵隊，這個原本要抓共諜的，自己都變成共諜。或者像資通電軍，或者海軍飛彈、快艇等等的這些士官，其實他們整體的薪資也不低，可是全部都被滲透。不管是執政黨也好，或者府院高層也好，或者立法院也好，或者軍中也好，被滲透得這麼深、這麼廣，其實我們應該要探討到底為什麼發生這樣子的原因。","第一，可能我們的敵我意識已經喪失，就是根本讓軍人沒有敵我意識。第二個就是他的中心思想，像我們在很多現代史你都不教，事實上它就是延續性的，你讓大家清清楚楚、明明白白，我覺得這更容易讓大家有一個中心思想。我們要怎麼樣讓軍人去愛中華民國這個國家才是重點，不然你再加薪，或者再嚴苛的法律都沒有用，不斷、不斷地發生，越來越多，而且層級越來越高，這個才是最大的問題。部長是律師出身，你也參與過國安單位，現在整個國防體系也是你在執掌，我相信會有更多的面向應該要注意。","剛剛我們提到今天要提出來的這個條例，為什麼我認為還有很大的問題，第一個就是我剛剛說的，院版根本沒有出來。國防部自己如果覺得這非常重要，你也沒有提出修法要去修訂，那如果只是現在這樣，你就要把它納為優先，我覺得，是不是太倉促了點？第二個，在修正的那個條文裡面，我們有看到的，你說如果一審確定以後就退休給與全部都讓他喪失，等到真的判決確定沒有罪的時候再還給他。這中間如果他發生生活困難呢？如果最後判決無罪，你是不是要付他利息？或者如果最後判決確定他是無罪，是不是要像228一樣你必須道歉、必須恢復人家的名譽？這是一個非常重大的問題，如果涉犯共諜或者內亂、外患危害到國家的時候都應該嚴刑峻法，我想這個大家都同意。可是如果光是對軍人你用這樣的程度，而且裡面的條文沒有很清楚地知道，比如報告裡面提及可能一定比例先把它扣除，可是你在法上沒有啊！你在條文裡面根本都沒有。","我剛剛提到的這些都是存在的很大的問題，這樣以後誰敢來當軍人！"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，簡單三點。第一點，行政院院版正在討論當中，原則上應該是在第一審判決之後會做部分的……這個部分，就我了解的修法方向，這是第一點。第二點，要加強保防意識，而且要加強敵我意識，這個是我們贊成的。第三個，我們要建立國安的共同的威脅圖像，將反情報跟這個的工作做好，我想這都是我們應該努力的方向，以上。"],["馬委員文君：剛剛您提到的這些部分，因為我們在法條上面都還沒有看到，所以這樣的討論其實是太粗糙了。怎麼樣把院版提出來以後，讓大家清清楚楚知道權益應該怎麼樣被保障，軍人應該有守有為，我們全力支持，可是你也不知道所判的輕重。比如六個月可能不是非常重，可是他是所有的退休給與通通要喪失嗎？你的標準在哪裡，我們完全看不到。","所以我們希望院版還有國防部必須提出更好的，可以真的規範到相關的這些層出不窮發生的案子。而且不只軍人，今天已經滲透到所有的剛剛我們說的府、院、黨，其實這是更嚴重的問題，因為它攸關我們整個決策的方向，甚至攸關到我們元首或者其他人的安全。這個部分我想國防部應該一併考量，國安單位也應該一併考量，不要把圈子一直繞在一個局部的地方，因為你要讓大家對我們國家更有信心，而且真正願意把這個志業繼續持續下去，愛護我們的國家。請部長就這個部分，提出院版以後我們再深入做全面探討，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝委員指教。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員冠廷代）：現在處理臨時提案，請議事人員宣讀。","臨時提案","近年共諜案件頻傳，涉案者高達六成多為現退役軍人，顯示敵情滲透日益嚴峻，軍中反情報機制亟待強化。惟國防部軍事安全總隊自2005年納入，《國家情報工作法》後，依法執行反情報、風險預警與安全回報等任務，至今卻仍未納編情報工作加給，形成法定責任與待遇不符之落差，實有檢討調整之必要。","建請國防部於二個月內提出研議方案，將軍事安全總隊軍職人員及聘雇員納入情工加給（反情報加給）對象，強化第一線保防戰力，落實國安體系待遇公平。","提案人：王定宇","連署人：羅美玲　　陳俊宇　　陳冠廷　　林楚茵　　沈伯洋"],["主席：請問提案委員需不需要說明？"],["王委員定宇：我說明一下，謝謝主席。我們對軍方要給予足夠跟充分的支持，我們也要求軍方對於國家以及臺灣的人民絕對忠誠，這是相對的。","長期以來，根據情工法，在國安局轄下的情報工作單位，目前大概就是軍安總隊是規定在情工法裡面，卻未領有情工加給。從2005年到目前為止，這個狀況一直沒有改善，變成法定上他有責任，比方針對這些共諜案，我們可以就軍安總隊、政戰局相關單位給予最嚴厲的要求，但是我們也希望在嚴厲的要求之餘，也要看看這些工作人員，他們應該要支領相對的法定報酬。所以本席今天特別提案，委員會的提案給予國防部長作為支持的一個力量，儘快落實針對軍安總隊軍職人員及聘僱人員、符合情工法規定的人員給予反情報加給，或者是國安單位所講的情工加給，這是不同名詞，但是指同一件事情，以待遇公平。","我再多說一句，這些案件層出不窮，也許我們認為軍安總隊或者相關國軍的督察單位很認真，所以把這些害蟲都抓出來了，但這不能自滿。我剛才講，當我們看到在這些機敏的營區，或者就在營區裡面大剌剌揮舞著敵人的軍旗、敵人旗幟的時候，作為一個指揮官，你看到了應該膽顫心驚、你應該心驚膽跳，這個事情是完全不能容忍的！所以我支持用最重的法律懲治這些違法亂紀的害群之馬，但我們也希望給予國軍弟兄姐妹充足的支持。以上提案說明，謝謝。"],["主席：請問國防部對於提案內容有沒有意見？"],["楊次長基榮：國防部這邊報告，我們最近針對志願役還有戰鬥加給的調整，都可以看得出來部長對官兵待遇的重視。在後續，還有一些待遇我們也會陸陸續續做調整，而委員今天所提的這個案子，我們會一併納入檢討。下禮拜我們完成一個初步的研擬後，向部長報告完，經過部長指導之後，我會再帶著相關人員到委員那邊做說明。至於文字的部分我們沒有修改，這個國防部沒有文字修改，謝謝。"],["主席：那請問在場委員有沒有意見？好，本提案就照案通過。","我們接下來請沈伯洋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-8","speakers":["沈伯洋","陳冠廷","羅美玲","陳俊宇","林楚茵","王定宇","馬文君","徐巧芯","吳宗憲","邱志偉","林憶君","黃仁"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例部分條文修正草案」案（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1143702_00005"}}}