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{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 253.073, \"end\": 253.694, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 253.694, \"end\": 253.854, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"星\", \"start\": 253.854, \"end\": 254.074, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"旗\", \"start\": 254.074, \"end\": 254.174, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 254.174, \"end\": 254.194, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"聞\"}]}, {\"start\": 255.615, \"end\": 281.014, \"text\": \"我們發現這個中間人他不是什麼一開始並不是那個特異的軍官一開始是宗教的組織也就是說他先從宗教的組織再到這個特異的軍官然後再去到現役的軍人也就是說這種事情的這種複雜程度可以說是越來越高白手套越來越多所以我認為在這個情形之下我們要怎麼去盤點這個風險變得特別的重要這是第一個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 255.615, \"end\": 256.136, \"score\": 0.722}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 256.136, \"end\": 256.516, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 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\"然後第二個就是說因為我們這一次的修法有這三個不同的層面第一個就是它直接喪屍然後中間是一個比較低程度的就是說它是剝奪或減少然後最後有這個停止清理的權利那我剛才提案說明其實已經有提過了那我現在會比較有疑惑的事情就是說因為\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 281.935, \"end\": 282.015, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 282.015, \"end\": 282.075, \"score\": 0.647}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 282.075, \"end\": 282.196, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 282.196, \"end\": 282.436, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 282.436, \"end\": 282.556, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 282.556, \"end\": 282.816, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 282.816, \"end\": 282.917, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 282.917, \"end\": 283.237, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 283.237, \"end\": 283.337, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 283.337, \"end\": 283.417, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 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298.977, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 298.977, \"end\": 299.137, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 299.137, \"end\": 299.277, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 299.277, \"end\": 299.377, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 299.377, \"end\": 300.078, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 300.078, \"end\": 300.098, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"為\"}]}, {\"start\": 300.859, \"end\": 317.974, \"text\": \"其實我們在第一個犯內亂外患這個部分它只是跟其他的法律對齊我覺得對齊這個部分應該不會有什麼疑慮停止的這個部分我們在之前在辦公室其實也有跟國防部討論過看起來好像國防部對這個的意見也不會太多但現在因為剝奪或減少這一個部分\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 300.859, \"end\": 301.119, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 301.119, \"end\": 301.259, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 301.259, \"end\": 301.44, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 301.44, \"end\": 301.56, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 301.56, \"end\": 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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,069 --> 00:00:02,211\n有請部長謝謝部長部長好我剛剛還是要回應一下剛剛有說沒有院版因為現在院版的確還沒有出來沒有院版之前但因為今天只是巡打也沒有進入主條我認為還是有必要讓大家先來討論這件事情再讓他們最近又有共諜案\n\n2\n00:00:26,013 --> 00:00:48,951\n那這個我在這個之前我想先問一下部長這個你可能已經知道了就是之前有這個參盤的事情那我其實沒有要針對這個個案因為畢竟它只是一個單一個案但當時就是說有說這個希望能夠帶參盤什麼等等之類的但是就我的理解就是說後來有說其實並沒有要求這個統一的形式\n\n3\n00:00:49,671 --> 00:01:14,115\n但後來下面這個可能不知道是揣摩上意還是說他自己的雞婆他又開始對下面做一個要求所以導致有一些士兵反彈所以我想比較通案型的問就是說因為畢竟國軍的管理體系現在真的是非常的龐大這個命令傳達的過程難免有失誤那是不是可以請這個部長或司令說明就是說接下來在這一類事情的一個處理方式這個部分我們先請倡務長\n\n4\n00:01:20,322 --> 00:01:41,062\n謝謝您給我這個說明的機會首先我向也到委員辦公室做過報告那我在這邊再做一次說明事實上國軍在整個的內部管理跟用餐等等都是有相關的規範那這個案子事實上也是我必須先說明我們絕大多數的單位都是按照現行的一個規範\n\n5\n00:01:43,004 --> 00:02:08,071\n那這個事實就是一個少部分偏遠單位那可能疏於過去從疫情解封之後沒有把它回歸到正常那有關於那既然他是大部分的部隊也都是維持正確的規範那基本上我們就也只是去就這個案子去就一個溝通說明就是提醒他如何去照顧官兵跟重視餐飲衛生以上報告好\n\n6\n00:02:09,011 --> 00:02:30,842\n我講就我的立場是這樣子就是說有關這個一個這麼多層級的一個部隊那麼這個司令可能他這個是基於關懷跟照顧官兵的一個心意所以接下來應該是說像這個部分的話應該還是要由部隊去主動去\n\n7\n00:02:31,983 --> 00:02:54,607\n主動去提供應該要由部隊去主動提供這個膳食的這個餐具而不是由官兵來發揮這是第一個那第二個相關的這些部分如果有他們有任何的這個意見的話我想部隊的部分的都應該要將這個情形要要轉達上來那這樣的話我想\n\n8\n00:02:55,865 --> 00:03:10,009\n這樣的溝通才會良好謝謝部長因為我覺得溝通的效率現在對我們來講真的是很重要尤其是現在這個危險的時刻因為這個我們有發過文也有在這個辦公室說明過但是我想說趁這個機會還是跟社會大眾說明一下\n\n9\n00:03:12,350 --> 00:03:36,922\n那我們回到今天的這個法案今天這個法案有兩個重點第一個當然就是其實我們是一陣子以前提的第二個就是說在前幾個禮拜總統在講這個五大威脅跟十七項策略的時候他裡面其實就有提到就是說國防部須嚴禮在陸海工軍刑法增訂對敵人效忠表示之處罰並修正對於領取退出給予人員的相關規範所以我認為這個既然是這個總統有特別\n\n10\n00:03:40,083 --> 00:03:57,541\n提到說國防部應該做這個相關的規範那我覺得不如趁今天這個機會我們來釐清到底有哪些應該要訂哪些不需要訂那這個這個之前我們有看過就是說這次共諜案其實不管是現役跟退役軍人這個佔的百分比這當然是越來越高我相信部長對這個也知道\n\n11\n00:03:59,102 --> 00:04:14,194\n那有兩件事情我想要問第一個就是說過往我們發現現役軍人的這一個接觸很多是透過退役軍官這是我們確定的事情所以我在質詢退輔會國防部的時候很常提到但剛好這幾天這個五星旗這個新聞\n\n12\n00:04:15,615 --> 00:04:41,014\n我們發現這個中間人他不是什麼一開始並不是那個特異的軍官一開始是宗教的組織也就是說他先從宗教的組織再到這個特異的軍官然後再去到現役的軍人也就是說這種事情的這種複雜程度可以說是越來越高白手套越來越多所以我認為在這個情形之下我們要怎麼去盤點這個風險變得特別的重要這是第一個\n\n13\n00:04:41,935 --> 00:05:00,098\n然後第二個就是說因為我們這一次的修法有這三個不同的層面第一個就是它直接喪屍然後中間是一個比較低程度的就是說它是剝奪或減少然後最後有這個停止清理的權利那我剛才提案說明其實已經有提過了那我現在會比較有疑惑的事情就是說因為\n\n14\n00:05:00,859 --> 00:05:17,974\n其實我們在第一個犯內亂外患這個部分它只是跟其他的法律對齊我覺得對齊這個部分應該不會有什麼疑慮停止的這個部分我們在之前在辦公室其實也有跟國防部討論過看起來好像國防部對這個的意見也不會太多但現在因為剝奪或減少這一個部分\n\n15\n00:05:18,755 --> 00:05:32,507\n如果只按照現有的條文不知道會不會不足夠為什麼我這樣講呢是因為我整理幾個案件這幾個案件不是軍人那第一個案件就是很久以前這一個有個共諜他解釋了王某\n\n16\n00:05:33,396 --> 00:05:59,122\n然後透過什麼聊什麼新聞網去經營網站當時法院判無罪是因為無法證明他有達到危害國家安全的程度這是第一個第二個是中華婦女聯會前理事長秘書涉嫌收受中國對台情收機關的款項他確實有收款項跟前一個案例是一模一樣的但他不能夠證明他有意圖危害國家或社會的安定最主要是不能夠證明他發展組織\n\n17\n00:06:01,582 --> 00:06:22,129\n那再來這一個是退役的協會理事長等等之類的那因為無從證明他的出資者是中國的國台辦然後又不能證明是發展組織所以現在我們的國安法就有一個困擾就是說因為國安法其實它的規定有點限縮那我們現在也沒有辦法馬上修國安法認為修國安法大概還需要很長的一段時間\n\n18\n00:06:23,149 --> 00:06:40,894\n那因為九之三就是剛剛這個處英委員有提到就是對於比如說妨害尊嚴啊等等的行為所以這邊我想問一下部長就是說我們有沒有可能在中間這一個就是剝奪或減少退出給予這邊因為他到喪屍沒辦法因為國安法就是有些案件他規定不到\n\n19\n00:06:41,454 --> 00:07:00,435\n但他其實已經有行為不管是他有收錢還是他有單點的對扣但是還沒有到發展組織總之他就是沒有到國安法那麼嚴重的程度但他有損軍域他也妨礙國家尊嚴像九資三那樣的一個條文的規定那他有沒有可能把他納入到剝奪或減少退出給予中間這一個部分\n\n20\n00:07:01,837 --> 00:07:31,037\n跟委員報告第一個就是說國安法的部分它現在也正在由法務部在研議就是說有關參與的部分要把它納入那這個部分在由法務部做那93條這個有妨害國家尊嚴的這個行為的這個部分現在應該是由陸委會在主導那國安部等人都在參與就是說要不要就我們\n\n21\n00:07:31,617 --> 00:07:58,389\n我們國防部的部分要不要納入這個有領取業退縫的部分那這個部分來做那如果有這樣的一個狀況的話就會按照相關的這個規定會有剝奪或減少退出給予的這個部分這樣子是有機會的就93條的這個部分看要怎麼修那我國防部的立場就是說\n\n22\n00:07:59,329 --> 00:08:26,665\n你還在領取業退碰的這個期間這樣因為這個是因為這一次我在修法的時候我沒有把這個放進來就是因為我想知道這一個國防部的意見那因為既然剛剛前面已經提到了就是說17項措施這個總統也有提到那我們希望院版能夠盡快出來趁今天這一個機會那除了因為今天我們只排一個就排這一個法案但是我其實就是整個跟這個軍隊紀律有關的其實有那麼多法案\n\n23\n00:08:27,245 --> 00:08:50,648\n那外患罪我已經提了但他應該會在司法法治那一邊兩岸人民條例會在內政委員會所以呢很多呢並沒有在這一邊就沒有不是在國防外交但至少我們覺得我們針對這個服役條例或陸海工具刑法這一個部分看要怎麼去研議把這一個國安使法這一個整體的建立起來我覺得應該是一個未來重要的方向那我知道我時間已經到了那我就先講到這邊謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t2211\t有請部長謝謝部長部長好我剛剛還是要回應一下剛剛有說沒有院版因為現在院版的確還沒有出來沒有院版之前但因為今天只是巡打也沒有進入主條我認為還是有必要讓大家先來討論這件事情再讓他們最近又有共諜案\n26013\t48951\t那這個我在這個之前我想先問一下部長這個你可能已經知道了就是之前有這個參盤的事情那我其實沒有要針對這個個案因為畢竟它只是一個單一個案但當時就是說有說這個希望能夠帶參盤什麼等等之類的但是就我的理解就是說後來有說其實並沒有要求這個統一的形式\n49671\t74115\t但後來下面這個可能不知道是揣摩上意還是說他自己的雞婆他又開始對下面做一個要求所以導致有一些士兵反彈所以我想比較通案型的問就是說因為畢竟國軍的管理體系現在真的是非常的龐大這個命令傳達的過程難免有失誤那是不是可以請這個部長或司令說明就是說接下來在這一類事情的一個處理方式這個部分我們先請倡務長\n80322\t101062\t謝謝您給我這個說明的機會首先我向 也到委員辦公室做過報告那我在這邊再做一次說明事實上國軍在整個的內部管理跟用餐等等都是有相關的規範那這個案子事實上也是我必須先說明我們絕大多數的單位都是按照現行的一個規範\n103004\t128071\t那這個事實就是一個少部分偏遠單位那可能疏於過去從疫情解封之後沒有把它回歸到正常那有關於那既然他是大部分的部隊也都是維持正確的規範那基本上我們就也只是去就這個案子去就一個溝通說明就是提醒他如何去照顧官兵跟重視餐飲衛生以上報告好\n129011\t150842\t我講就我的立場是這樣子就是說有關這個一個這麼多層級的一個部隊那麼這個司令可能他這個是基於關懷跟照顧官兵的一個心意所以接下來應該是說像這個部分的話應該還是要由部隊去主動去\n151983\t174607\t主動去提供應該要由部隊去主動提供這個膳食的這個餐具而不是由官兵來發揮這是第一個那第二個相關的這些部分如果有他們有任何的這個意見的話我想部隊的部分的都應該要將這個情形要要轉達上來那這樣的話我想\n175865\t190009\t這樣的溝通才會良好謝謝部長 因為我覺得溝通的效率現在對我們來講真的是很重要尤其是現在這個危險的時刻因為這個我們有發過文也有在這個辦公室說明過但是我想說趁這個機會還是跟社會大眾說明一下\n192350\t216922\t那我們回到今天的這個法案今天這個法案有兩個重點第一個當然就是其實我們是一陣子以前提的第二個就是說在前幾個禮拜總統在講這個五大威脅跟十七項策略的時候他裡面其實就有提到就是說國防部須嚴禮在陸海工軍刑法增訂對敵人效忠表示之處罰並修正對於領取退出給予人員的相關規範所以我認為這個既然是這個總統有特別\n220083\t237541\t提到說國防部應該做這個相關的規範那我覺得不如趁今天這個機會我們來釐清到底有哪些應該要訂哪些不需要訂那這個這個之前我們有看過就是說這次共諜案其實不管是現役跟退役軍人這個佔的百分比這當然是越來越高我相信部長對這個也知道\n239102\t254194\t那有兩件事情我想要問第一個就是說過往我們發現現役軍人的這一個接觸很多是透過退役軍官這是我們確定的事情所以我在質詢退輔會國防部的時候很常提到但剛好這幾天這個五星旗這個新聞\n255615\t281014\t我們發現這個中間人他不是什麼一開始並不是那個特異的軍官一開始是宗教的組織也就是說他先從宗教的組織再到這個特異的軍官然後再去到現役的軍人也就是說這種事情的這種複雜程度可以說是越來越高白手套越來越多所以我認為在這個情形之下我們要怎麼去盤點這個風險變得特別的重要這是第一個\n281935\t300098\t然後第二個就是說因為我們這一次的修法有這三個不同的層面第一個就是它直接喪屍然後中間是一個比較低程度的就是說它是剝奪或減少然後最後有這個停止清理的權利那我剛才提案說明其實已經有提過了那我現在會比較有疑惑的事情就是說因為\n300859\t317974\t其實我們在第一個犯內亂外患這個部分它只是跟其他的法律對齊我覺得對齊這個部分應該不會有什麼疑慮停止的這個部分我們在之前在辦公室其實也有跟國防部討論過看起來好像國防部對這個的意見也不會太多但現在因為剝奪或減少這一個部分\n318755\t332507\t如果只按照現有的條文不知道會不會不足夠為什麼我這樣講呢是因為我整理幾個案件這幾個案件不是軍人那第一個案件就是很久以前這一個有個共諜他解釋了王某\n333396\t359122\t然後透過什麼聊什麼新聞網去經營網站當時法院判無罪是因為無法證明他有達到危害國家安全的程度這是第一個第二個是中華婦女聯會前理事長秘書涉嫌收受中國對台情收機關的款項他確實有收款項跟前一個案例是一模一樣的但他不能夠證明他有意圖危害國家或社會的安定最主要是不能夠證明他發展組織\n361582\t382129\t那再來這一個是退役的協會理事長等等之類的那因為無從證明他的出資者是中國的國台辦然後又不能證明是發展組織所以現在我們的國安法就有一個困擾就是說因為國安法其實它的規定有點限縮那我們現在也沒有辦法馬上修國安法認為修國安法大概還需要很長的一段時間\n383149\t400894\t那因為九之三就是剛剛這個處英委員有提到就是對於比如說妨害尊嚴啊等等的行為所以這邊我想問一下部長就是說我們有沒有可能在中間這一個就是剝奪或減少退出給予這邊因為他到喪屍沒辦法因為國安法就是有些案件他規定不到\n401454\t420435\t但他其實已經有行為不管是他有收錢還是他有單點的對扣但是還沒有到發展組織總之他就是沒有到國安法那麼嚴重的程度但他有損軍域他也妨礙國家尊嚴像九資三那樣的一個條文的規定那他有沒有可能把他納入到剝奪或減少退出給予中間這一個部分\n421837\t451037\t跟委員報告 第一個就是說國安法的部分它現在也正在由法務部在研議就是說有關參與的部分要把它納入那這個部分在由法務部做那93條這個有妨害國家尊嚴的這個行為的這個部分現在應該是由陸委會在主導那國安部等人都在參與就是說要不要就我們\n451617\t478389\t我們國防部的部分要不要納入這個有領取業退縫的部分那這個部分來做那如果有這樣的一個狀況的話就會按照相關的這個規定會有剝奪或減少退出給予的這個部分這樣子是有機會的就93條的這個部分看要怎麼修那我國防部的立場就是說\n479329\t506665\t你還在領取業退碰的這個期間這樣因為這個是因為這一次我在修法的時候我沒有把這個放進來就是因為我想知道這一個國防部的意見那因為既然剛剛前面已經提到了就是說17項措施這個總統也有提到那我們希望院版能夠盡快出來趁今天這一個機會那除了因為今天我們只排一個就排這一個法案但是我其實就是整個跟這個軍隊紀律有關的其實有那麼多法案\n507245\t530648\t那外患罪我已經提了但他應該會在司法法治那一邊兩岸人民條例會在內政委員會所以呢很多呢並沒有在這一邊就沒有不是在國防外交但至少我們覺得我們針對這個服役條例或陸海工具刑法這一個部分看要怎麼去研議把這一個國安使法這一個整體的建立起來我覺得應該是一個未來重要的方向那我知道我時間已經到了那我就先講到這邊謝謝\n","txt":"有請部長謝謝部長部長好我剛剛還是要回應一下剛剛有說沒有院版因為現在院版的確還沒有出來沒有院版之前但因為今天只是巡打也沒有進入主條我認為還是有必要讓大家先來討論這件事情再讓他們最近又有共諜案\n那這個我在這個之前我想先問一下部長這個你可能已經知道了就是之前有這個參盤的事情那我其實沒有要針對這個個案因為畢竟它只是一個單一個案但當時就是說有說這個希望能夠帶參盤什麼等等之類的但是就我的理解就是說後來有說其實並沒有要求這個統一的形式\n但後來下面這個可能不知道是揣摩上意還是說他自己的雞婆他又開始對下面做一個要求所以導致有一些士兵反彈所以我想比較通案型的問就是說因為畢竟國軍的管理體系現在真的是非常的龐大這個命令傳達的過程難免有失誤那是不是可以請這個部長或司令說明就是說接下來在這一類事情的一個處理方式這個部分我們先請倡務長\n謝謝您給我這個說明的機會首先我向 也到委員辦公室做過報告那我在這邊再做一次說明事實上國軍在整個的內部管理跟用餐等等都是有相關的規範那這個案子事實上也是我必須先說明我們絕大多數的單位都是按照現行的一個規範\n那這個事實就是一個少部分偏遠單位那可能疏於過去從疫情解封之後沒有把它回歸到正常那有關於那既然他是大部分的部隊也都是維持正確的規範那基本上我們就也只是去就這個案子去就一個溝通說明就是提醒他如何去照顧官兵跟重視餐飲衛生以上報告好\n我講就我的立場是這樣子就是說有關這個一個這麼多層級的一個部隊那麼這個司令可能他這個是基於關懷跟照顧官兵的一個心意所以接下來應該是說像這個部分的話應該還是要由部隊去主動去\n主動去提供應該要由部隊去主動提供這個膳食的這個餐具而不是由官兵來發揮這是第一個那第二個相關的這些部分如果有他們有任何的這個意見的話我想部隊的部分的都應該要將這個情形要要轉達上來那這樣的話我想\n這樣的溝通才會良好謝謝部長 因為我覺得溝通的效率現在對我們來講真的是很重要尤其是現在這個危險的時刻因為這個我們有發過文也有在這個辦公室說明過但是我想說趁這個機會還是跟社會大眾說明一下\n那我們回到今天的這個法案今天這個法案有兩個重點第一個當然就是其實我們是一陣子以前提的第二個就是說在前幾個禮拜總統在講這個五大威脅跟十七項策略的時候他裡面其實就有提到就是說國防部須嚴禮在陸海工軍刑法增訂對敵人效忠表示之處罰並修正對於領取退出給予人員的相關規範所以我認為這個既然是這個總統有特別\n提到說國防部應該做這個相關的規範那我覺得不如趁今天這個機會我們來釐清到底有哪些應該要訂哪些不需要訂那這個這個之前我們有看過就是說這次共諜案其實不管是現役跟退役軍人這個佔的百分比這當然是越來越高我相信部長對這個也知道\n那有兩件事情我想要問第一個就是說過往我們發現現役軍人的這一個接觸很多是透過退役軍官這是我們確定的事情所以我在質詢退輔會國防部的時候很常提到但剛好這幾天這個五星旗這個新聞\n我們發現這個中間人他不是什麼一開始並不是那個特異的軍官一開始是宗教的組織也就是說他先從宗教的組織再到這個特異的軍官然後再去到現役的軍人也就是說這種事情的這種複雜程度可以說是越來越高白手套越來越多所以我認為在這個情形之下我們要怎麼去盤點這個風險變得特別的重要這是第一個\n然後第二個就是說因為我們這一次的修法有這三個不同的層面第一個就是它直接喪屍然後中間是一個比較低程度的就是說它是剝奪或減少然後最後有這個停止清理的權利那我剛才提案說明其實已經有提過了那我現在會比較有疑惑的事情就是說因為\n其實我們在第一個犯內亂外患這個部分它只是跟其他的法律對齊我覺得對齊這個部分應該不會有什麼疑慮停止的這個部分我們在之前在辦公室其實也有跟國防部討論過看起來好像國防部對這個的意見也不會太多但現在因為剝奪或減少這一個部分\n如果只按照現有的條文不知道會不會不足夠為什麼我這樣講呢是因為我整理幾個案件這幾個案件不是軍人那第一個案件就是很久以前這一個有個共諜他解釋了王某\n然後透過什麼聊什麼新聞網去經營網站當時法院判無罪是因為無法證明他有達到危害國家安全的程度這是第一個第二個是中華婦女聯會前理事長秘書涉嫌收受中國對台情收機關的款項他確實有收款項跟前一個案例是一模一樣的但他不能夠證明他有意圖危害國家或社會的安定最主要是不能夠證明他發展組織\n那再來這一個是退役的協會理事長等等之類的那因為無從證明他的出資者是中國的國台辦然後又不能證明是發展組織所以現在我們的國安法就有一個困擾就是說因為國安法其實它的規定有點限縮那我們現在也沒有辦法馬上修國安法認為修國安法大概還需要很長的一段時間\n那因為九之三就是剛剛這個處英委員有提到就是對於比如說妨害尊嚴啊等等的行為所以這邊我想問一下部長就是說我們有沒有可能在中間這一個就是剝奪或減少退出給予這邊因為他到喪屍沒辦法因為國安法就是有些案件他規定不到\n但他其實已經有行為不管是他有收錢還是他有單點的對扣但是還沒有到發展組織總之他就是沒有到國安法那麼嚴重的程度但他有損軍域他也妨礙國家尊嚴像九資三那樣的一個條文的規定那他有沒有可能把他納入到剝奪或減少退出給予中間這一個部分\n跟委員報告 第一個就是說國安法的部分它現在也正在由法務部在研議就是說有關參與的部分要把它納入那這個部分在由法務部做那93條這個有妨害國家尊嚴的這個行為的這個部分現在應該是由陸委會在主導那國安部等人都在參與就是說要不要就我們\n我們國防部的部分要不要納入這個有領取業退縫的部分那這個部分來做那如果有這樣的一個狀況的話就會按照相關的這個規定會有剝奪或減少退出給予的這個部分這樣子是有機會的就93條的這個部分看要怎麼修那我國防部的立場就是說\n你還在領取業退碰的這個期間這樣因為這個是因為這一次我在修法的時候我沒有把這個放進來就是因為我想知道這一個國防部的意見那因為既然剛剛前面已經提到了就是說17項措施這個總統也有提到那我們希望院版能夠盡快出來趁今天這一個機會那除了因為今天我們只排一個就排這一個法案但是我其實就是整個跟這個軍隊紀律有關的其實有那麼多法案\n那外患罪我已經提了但他應該會在司法法治那一邊兩岸人民條例會在內政委員會所以呢很多呢並沒有在這一邊就沒有不是在國防外交但至少我們覺得我們針對這個服役條例或陸海工具刑法這一個部分看要怎麼去研議把這一個國安使法這一個整體的建立起來我覺得應該是一個未來重要的方向那我知道我時間已經到了那我就先講到這邊謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:02.211\n有請部長謝謝部長部長好我剛剛還是要回應一下剛剛有說沒有院版因為現在院版的確還沒有出來沒有院版之前但因為今天只是巡打也沒有進入主條我認為還是有必要讓大家先來討論這件事情再讓他們最近又有共諜案\n\n00:26.013 --> 00:48.951\n那這個我在這個之前我想先問一下部長這個你可能已經知道了就是之前有這個參盤的事情那我其實沒有要針對這個個案因為畢竟它只是一個單一個案但當時就是說有說這個希望能夠帶參盤什麼等等之類的但是就我的理解就是說後來有說其實並沒有要求這個統一的形式\n\n00:49.671 --> 01:14.115\n但後來下面這個可能不知道是揣摩上意還是說他自己的雞婆他又開始對下面做一個要求所以導致有一些士兵反彈所以我想比較通案型的問就是說因為畢竟國軍的管理體系現在真的是非常的龐大這個命令傳達的過程難免有失誤那是不是可以請這個部長或司令說明就是說接下來在這一類事情的一個處理方式這個部分我們先請倡務長\n\n01:20.322 --> 01:41.062\n謝謝您給我這個說明的機會首先我向也到委員辦公室做過報告那我在這邊再做一次說明事實上國軍在整個的內部管理跟用餐等等都是有相關的規範那這個案子事實上也是我必須先說明我們絕大多數的單位都是按照現行的一個規範\n\n01:43.004 --> 02:08.071\n那這個事實就是一個少部分偏遠單位那可能疏於過去從疫情解封之後沒有把它回歸到正常那有關於那既然他是大部分的部隊也都是維持正確的規範那基本上我們就也只是去就這個案子去就一個溝通說明就是提醒他如何去照顧官兵跟重視餐飲衛生以上報告好\n\n02:09.011 --> 02:30.842\n我講就我的立場是這樣子就是說有關這個一個這麼多層級的一個部隊那麼這個司令可能他這個是基於關懷跟照顧官兵的一個心意所以接下來應該是說像這個部分的話應該還是要由部隊去主動去\n\n02:31.983 --> 02:54.607\n主動去提供應該要由部隊去主動提供這個膳食的這個餐具而不是由官兵來發揮這是第一個那第二個相關的這些部分如果有他們有任何的這個意見的話我想部隊的部分的都應該要將這個情形要要轉達上來那這樣的話我想\n\n02:55.865 --> 03:10.009\n這樣的溝通才會良好謝謝部長因為我覺得溝通的效率現在對我們來講真的是很重要尤其是現在這個危險的時刻因為這個我們有發過文也有在這個辦公室說明過但是我想說趁這個機會還是跟社會大眾說明一下\n\n03:12.350 --> 03:36.922\n那我們回到今天的這個法案今天這個法案有兩個重點第一個當然就是其實我們是一陣子以前提的第二個就是說在前幾個禮拜總統在講這個五大威脅跟十七項策略的時候他裡面其實就有提到就是說國防部須嚴禮在陸海工軍刑法增訂對敵人效忠表示之處罰並修正對於領取退出給予人員的相關規範所以我認為這個既然是這個總統有特別\n\n03:40.083 --> 03:57.541\n提到說國防部應該做這個相關的規範那我覺得不如趁今天這個機會我們來釐清到底有哪些應該要訂哪些不需要訂那這個這個之前我們有看過就是說這次共諜案其實不管是現役跟退役軍人這個佔的百分比這當然是越來越高我相信部長對這個也知道\n\n03:59.102 --> 04:14.194\n那有兩件事情我想要問第一個就是說過往我們發現現役軍人的這一個接觸很多是透過退役軍官這是我們確定的事情所以我在質詢退輔會國防部的時候很常提到但剛好這幾天這個五星旗這個新聞\n\n04:15.615 --> 04:41.014\n我們發現這個中間人他不是什麼一開始並不是那個特異的軍官一開始是宗教的組織也就是說他先從宗教的組織再到這個特異的軍官然後再去到現役的軍人也就是說這種事情的這種複雜程度可以說是越來越高白手套越來越多所以我認為在這個情形之下我們要怎麼去盤點這個風險變得特別的重要這是第一個\n\n04:41.935 --> 05:00.098\n然後第二個就是說因為我們這一次的修法有這三個不同的層面第一個就是它直接喪屍然後中間是一個比較低程度的就是說它是剝奪或減少然後最後有這個停止清理的權利那我剛才提案說明其實已經有提過了那我現在會比較有疑惑的事情就是說因為\n\n05:00.859 --> 05:17.974\n其實我們在第一個犯內亂外患這個部分它只是跟其他的法律對齊我覺得對齊這個部分應該不會有什麼疑慮停止的這個部分我們在之前在辦公室其實也有跟國防部討論過看起來好像國防部對這個的意見也不會太多但現在因為剝奪或減少這一個部分\n\n05:18.755 --> 05:32.507\n如果只按照現有的條文不知道會不會不足夠為什麼我這樣講呢是因為我整理幾個案件這幾個案件不是軍人那第一個案件就是很久以前這一個有個共諜他解釋了王某\n\n05:33.396 --> 05:59.122\n然後透過什麼聊什麼新聞網去經營網站當時法院判無罪是因為無法證明他有達到危害國家安全的程度這是第一個第二個是中華婦女聯會前理事長秘書涉嫌收受中國對台情收機關的款項他確實有收款項跟前一個案例是一模一樣的但他不能夠證明他有意圖危害國家或社會的安定最主要是不能夠證明他發展組織\n\n06:01.582 --> 06:22.129\n那再來這一個是退役的協會理事長等等之類的那因為無從證明他的出資者是中國的國台辦然後又不能證明是發展組織所以現在我們的國安法就有一個困擾就是說因為國安法其實它的規定有點限縮那我們現在也沒有辦法馬上修國安法認為修國安法大概還需要很長的一段時間\n\n06:23.149 --> 06:40.894\n那因為九之三就是剛剛這個處英委員有提到就是對於比如說妨害尊嚴啊等等的行為所以這邊我想問一下部長就是說我們有沒有可能在中間這一個就是剝奪或減少退出給予這邊因為他到喪屍沒辦法因為國安法就是有些案件他規定不到\n\n06:41.454 --> 07:00.435\n但他其實已經有行為不管是他有收錢還是他有單點的對扣但是還沒有到發展組織總之他就是沒有到國安法那麼嚴重的程度但他有損軍域他也妨礙國家尊嚴像九資三那樣的一個條文的規定那他有沒有可能把他納入到剝奪或減少退出給予中間這一個部分\n\n07:01.837 --> 07:31.037\n跟委員報告第一個就是說國安法的部分它現在也正在由法務部在研議就是說有關參與的部分要把它納入那這個部分在由法務部做那93條這個有妨害國家尊嚴的這個行為的這個部分現在應該是由陸委會在主導那國安部等人都在參與就是說要不要就我們\n\n07:31.617 --> 07:58.389\n我們國防部的部分要不要納入這個有領取業退縫的部分那這個部分來做那如果有這樣的一個狀況的話就會按照相關的這個規定會有剝奪或減少退出給予的這個部分這樣子是有機會的就93條的這個部分看要怎麼修那我國防部的立場就是說\n\n07:59.329 --> 08:26.665\n你還在領取業退碰的這個期間這樣因為這個是因為這一次我在修法的時候我沒有把這個放進來就是因為我想知道這一個國防部的意見那因為既然剛剛前面已經提到了就是說17項措施這個總統也有提到那我們希望院版能夠盡快出來趁今天這一個機會那除了因為今天我們只排一個就排這一個法案但是我其實就是整個跟這個軍隊紀律有關的其實有那麼多法案\n\n08:27.245 --> 08:50.648\n那外患罪我已經提了但他應該會在司法法治那一邊兩岸人民條例會在內政委員會所以呢很多呢並沒有在這一邊就沒有不是在國防外交但至少我們覺得我們針對這個服役條例或陸海工具刑法這一個部分看要怎麼去研議把這一個國安使法這一個整體的建立起來我覺得應該是一個未來重要的方向那我知道我時間已經到了那我就先講到這邊謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":2.211,"text":"有請部長謝謝部長部長好我剛剛還是要回應一下剛剛有說沒有院版因為現在院版的確還沒有出來沒有院版之前但因為今天只是巡打也沒有進入主條我認為還是有必要讓大家先來討論這件事情再讓他們最近又有共諜案"},{"start":26.013,"end":48.951,"text":"那這個我在這個之前我想先問一下部長這個你可能已經知道了就是之前有這個參盤的事情那我其實沒有要針對這個個案因為畢竟它只是一個單一個案但當時就是說有說這個希望能夠帶參盤什麼等等之類的但是就我的理解就是說後來有說其實並沒有要求這個統一的形式"},{"start":49.671,"end":74.115,"text":"但後來下面這個可能不知道是揣摩上意還是說他自己的雞婆他又開始對下面做一個要求所以導致有一些士兵反彈所以我想比較通案型的問就是說因為畢竟國軍的管理體系現在真的是非常的龐大這個命令傳達的過程難免有失誤那是不是可以請這個部長或司令說明就是說接下來在這一類事情的一個處理方式這個部分我們先請倡務長"},{"start":80.322,"end":101.062,"text":"謝謝您給我這個說明的機會首先我向 也到委員辦公室做過報告那我在這邊再做一次說明事實上國軍在整個的內部管理跟用餐等等都是有相關的規範那這個案子事實上也是我必須先說明我們絕大多數的單位都是按照現行的一個規範"},{"start":103.004,"end":128.071,"text":"那這個事實就是一個少部分偏遠單位那可能疏於過去從疫情解封之後沒有把它回歸到正常那有關於那既然他是大部分的部隊也都是維持正確的規範那基本上我們就也只是去就這個案子去就一個溝通說明就是提醒他如何去照顧官兵跟重視餐飲衛生以上報告好"},{"start":129.011,"end":150.842,"text":"我講就我的立場是這樣子就是說有關這個一個這麼多層級的一個部隊那麼這個司令可能他這個是基於關懷跟照顧官兵的一個心意所以接下來應該是說像這個部分的話應該還是要由部隊去主動去"},{"start":151.983,"end":174.607,"text":"主動去提供應該要由部隊去主動提供這個膳食的這個餐具而不是由官兵來發揮這是第一個那第二個相關的這些部分如果有他們有任何的這個意見的話我想部隊的部分的都應該要將這個情形要要轉達上來那這樣的話我想"},{"start":175.865,"end":190.009,"text":"這樣的溝通才會良好謝謝部長 因為我覺得溝通的效率現在對我們來講真的是很重要尤其是現在這個危險的時刻因為這個我們有發過文也有在這個辦公室說明過但是我想說趁這個機會還是跟社會大眾說明一下"},{"start":192.35,"end":216.922,"text":"那我們回到今天的這個法案今天這個法案有兩個重點第一個當然就是其實我們是一陣子以前提的第二個就是說在前幾個禮拜總統在講這個五大威脅跟十七項策略的時候他裡面其實就有提到就是說國防部須嚴禮在陸海工軍刑法增訂對敵人效忠表示之處罰並修正對於領取退出給予人員的相關規範所以我認為這個既然是這個總統有特別"},{"start":220.083,"end":237.541,"text":"提到說國防部應該做這個相關的規範那我覺得不如趁今天這個機會我們來釐清到底有哪些應該要訂哪些不需要訂那這個這個之前我們有看過就是說這次共諜案其實不管是現役跟退役軍人這個佔的百分比這當然是越來越高我相信部長對這個也知道"},{"start":239.102,"end":254.194,"text":"那有兩件事情我想要問第一個就是說過往我們發現現役軍人的這一個接觸很多是透過退役軍官這是我們確定的事情所以我在質詢退輔會國防部的時候很常提到但剛好這幾天這個五星旗這個新聞"},{"start":255.615,"end":281.014,"text":"我們發現這個中間人他不是什麼一開始並不是那個特異的軍官一開始是宗教的組織也就是說他先從宗教的組織再到這個特異的軍官然後再去到現役的軍人也就是說這種事情的這種複雜程度可以說是越來越高白手套越來越多所以我認為在這個情形之下我們要怎麼去盤點這個風險變得特別的重要這是第一個"},{"start":281.935,"end":300.098,"text":"然後第二個就是說因為我們這一次的修法有這三個不同的層面第一個就是它直接喪屍然後中間是一個比較低程度的就是說它是剝奪或減少然後最後有這個停止清理的權利那我剛才提案說明其實已經有提過了那我現在會比較有疑惑的事情就是說因為"},{"start":300.859,"end":317.974,"text":"其實我們在第一個犯內亂外患這個部分它只是跟其他的法律對齊我覺得對齊這個部分應該不會有什麼疑慮停止的這個部分我們在之前在辦公室其實也有跟國防部討論過看起來好像國防部對這個的意見也不會太多但現在因為剝奪或減少這一個部分"},{"start":318.755,"end":332.507,"text":"如果只按照現有的條文不知道會不會不足夠為什麼我這樣講呢是因為我整理幾個案件這幾個案件不是軍人那第一個案件就是很久以前這一個有個共諜他解釋了王某"},{"start":333.396,"end":359.122,"text":"然後透過什麼聊什麼新聞網去經營網站當時法院判無罪是因為無法證明他有達到危害國家安全的程度這是第一個第二個是中華婦女聯會前理事長秘書涉嫌收受中國對台情收機關的款項他確實有收款項跟前一個案例是一模一樣的但他不能夠證明他有意圖危害國家或社會的安定最主要是不能夠證明他發展組織"},{"start":361.582,"end":382.129,"text":"那再來這一個是退役的協會理事長等等之類的那因為無從證明他的出資者是中國的國台辦然後又不能證明是發展組織所以現在我們的國安法就有一個困擾就是說因為國安法其實它的規定有點限縮那我們現在也沒有辦法馬上修國安法認為修國安法大概還需要很長的一段時間"},{"start":383.149,"end":400.894,"text":"那因為九之三就是剛剛這個處英委員有提到就是對於比如說妨害尊嚴啊等等的行為所以這邊我想問一下部長就是說我們有沒有可能在中間這一個就是剝奪或減少退出給予這邊因為他到喪屍沒辦法因為國安法就是有些案件他規定不到"},{"start":401.454,"end":420.435,"text":"但他其實已經有行為不管是他有收錢還是他有單點的對扣但是還沒有到發展組織總之他就是沒有到國安法那麼嚴重的程度但他有損軍域他也妨礙國家尊嚴像九資三那樣的一個條文的規定那他有沒有可能把他納入到剝奪或減少退出給予中間這一個部分"},{"start":421.837,"end":451.037,"text":"跟委員報告 第一個就是說國安法的部分它現在也正在由法務部在研議就是說有關參與的部分要把它納入那這個部分在由法務部做那93條這個有妨害國家尊嚴的這個行為的這個部分現在應該是由陸委會在主導那國安部等人都在參與就是說要不要就我們"},{"start":451.617,"end":478.389,"text":"我們國防部的部分要不要納入這個有領取業退縫的部分那這個部分來做那如果有這樣的一個狀況的話就會按照相關的這個規定會有剝奪或減少退出給予的這個部分這樣子是有機會的就93條的這個部分看要怎麼修那我國防部的立場就是說"},{"start":479.329,"end":506.665,"text":"你還在領取業退碰的這個期間這樣因為這個是因為這一次我在修法的時候我沒有把這個放進來就是因為我想知道這一個國防部的意見那因為既然剛剛前面已經提到了就是說17項措施這個總統也有提到那我們希望院版能夠盡快出來趁今天這一個機會那除了因為今天我們只排一個就排這一個法案但是我其實就是整個跟這個軍隊紀律有關的其實有那麼多法案"},{"start":507.245,"end":530.648,"text":"那外患罪我已經提了但他應該會在司法法治那一邊兩岸人民條例會在內政委員會所以呢很多呢並沒有在這一邊就沒有不是在國防外交但至少我們覺得我們針對這個服役條例或陸海工具刑法這一個部分看要怎麼去研議把這一個國安使法這一個整體的建立起來我覺得應該是一個未來重要的方向那我知道我時間已經到了那我就先講到這邊謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":419,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時36分）謝謝主席，有請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：部長。"],["顧部長立雄：是，沈委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長好。我還是要回應一下，剛剛有說這個沒有院版，現在院版的確也還沒有出來，沒有院版之前，因為今天只是詢答，也沒有進入逐條，我認為還是有必要讓大家先討論這件事情，再加上最近又有共諜案。在這之前我想先問部長，你可能已經知道，就是之前有餐盤的事情。我其實沒有要針對這個個案，因為畢竟它只是單一個案，當時有說希望能夠帶餐盤等等之類的，就我的理解，後來有說其實並沒有要要求統一的型式，但後來有人不知道是揣摩上意還是他自己雞婆，又開始對下面做一個要求，導致有些士兵反彈。所以我想比較通案性地問，畢竟現在國軍的管理體系真的非常龐大，命令傳達的過程難免有失誤，是不是可以請部長或參謀長說明接下來這類事情的處理方式？"],["顧部長立雄：這個部分我先請參謀長說明。"],["陳參謀長建義：謝謝委員給我這個說明的機會。首先我也到委員辦公室做過報告，現在在這邊再做一次說明。事實上國軍在整個內部管理跟用餐等等都有相關的規範，這個案子事實上也是。我必須先說明，我們絕大多數的單位都是按照現行的規範……"],["沈委員伯洋：有、有，我的理解也是這樣。"],["陳參謀長建義：是的，這個事實就是少部分偏遠單位可能從疫情解封之後，沒有把它回歸到正常。既然大部分的部隊都是維持正確的規範，基本上我們也只是就這個案子去做一個溝通說明，就是提醒他如何去照顧官兵跟重視餐飲衛生。以上報告。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：就我的立場是這樣，有關一個這麼多層級的部隊，這個司令可能是基於關懷和照顧官兵的心意，所以接下來應該是說，像這個部分的話，應該還是要由部隊主動提供膳食的餐具，而不是由官兵自己來花費，這是第一個。第二個，相關部分如果他們有任何意見的話，我想部隊都應該將這個情形轉達上來，這樣溝通才會良好。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長回應，我覺得溝通效率對我們來講真的是很重要，尤其是現在這個危險的時刻。針對這件事情，我們有發過文，相關人員也有到辦公室說明過，但我想還是趁這個機會向社會大眾說明一下。","回到今天要審查的這個法案，它有兩個重點，第一，這其實是我們一陣子以前提的，第二，前幾個禮拜總統在講五大威脅和十七項策略的時候，其實就有提到國防部須研擬在陸海空軍刑法增訂「對敵人效忠表示」之處罰，並修正對於領取退除給與人員之相關規範，所以我認為，既然總統有特別提到國防部應該做相關的規範，不如趁今天這個機會來釐清到底有哪些應該要訂，哪些不需要訂。","之前我們有看過這次共諜案不管現役或退役軍人所占的百分比都越來越高，我相信部長也知道。有兩件事情我想要問，第一個就是過往發現現役軍人的接觸很多是透過退役軍官，這是我們確定的事情，這個我在質詢退輔會、國防部的時候很常提到，而這幾天剛有好五星旗的新聞，我們發現中間人一開始並不是退役軍官，而是宗教組織，也就是先從宗教組織，再到退役軍官，然後再到現役軍人，也就是說，這種事情的複雜程度可以說是越來越高、白手套越來越多。所以我認為在這個情形之下，我們要怎麼去盤點這個風險就變得特別重要，這是第一個。第二個就是因為我們這次修法有三個不同的層面，第一個是直接喪失請領退除給與的權利，中間是一個比較低程度的，就是剝奪或減少退除給與，最後是停止請領權利。我剛才做提案說明的時候其實已經提過了，而我現在比較疑惑的事情是，其實在犯內亂、外患罪的部分，它只是跟其他的法律對齊，我覺得對齊這個部分應該不會有什麼疑慮；至於停止請領權利的部分，我們之前也在辦公室跟國防部討論過，看起來好像國防對這個部分的意見也不會太多；現在是剝奪或減少退除給與的部分如果只按照現有的條文，不知道會不會不足夠？","為什麼我會這樣講？因為我整理了幾個案件，這幾個案件並不是軍人，第一個是很久以前，有一個共諜結識了王某，然後透過「燎○新聞網」去經營網站，當時法院判決無罪是因為無法證明他有達到危害國家安全的程度。第二個是中華婦女聯合會前理事長、秘書涉嫌收受中國對臺情蒐機關的款項，他確實有收款項，跟前一個案例是一模一樣的，但不能證明他有意圖危害國家安全或社會安定，最主要是不能夠證明他發展組織。再來是退役的協會理事長等等之類的，因為無從證明他背後的出資者是中國國台辦，也不能證明他發展組織。所以現在我們的國安法就有一個困擾，因為國安法的規定其實有點限縮，而我們現在也沒有辦法馬上修國安法，如果要修國安法，大概還需要一段很長的時間。因為兩岸人民關係條例第九條之三，剛剛楚茵委員也有提到，對於譬如說妨害國家尊嚴等行為的規定，所以我想問一下部長的就是，我們有沒有可能在中間這一個，就是「剝奪或減少退除給與」這邊？因為國安法就是有些案件規定不到，所以他沒辦法到「喪失」，但他其實已經有行為，不管他有收錢或是有單點的對口，但是還沒有到發展組織，總之他就是沒有到國安法規定的那麼嚴重的程度，但是他有損軍譽，也妨害國家尊嚴，像兩岸人民關係條例第九條之三那樣一個條文的規定，那麼有沒有可能把他納入到「剝奪或減少退除給與」，也就是中間這一個部分？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，第一，國安法的部分現在也正在由法務部研議，就是有關參與的部分要把它納入，這個部分法務部在研議。第二，兩岸人民關係條例第九條之三有關妨害國家尊嚴之行為的部分，現在應該是由陸委會在主導，國防部本身也都在參與，就我們國防部的部分，是針對要不要納入有領取月退俸的部分來做，如果有這樣的狀況，按照相關規定，會有剝奪或減少退休給與的部分。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以是有機會的？"],["顧部長立雄：就兩岸人民關係條例第九條之三的部分看要怎麼修，國防部的立場就是，你還在領取月退俸的期間這樣子……"],["沈委員伯洋：OK，這次我在修法的時候沒有把這個放進來，就是因為我想知道國防部的意見，既然前面已經說過總統在講十七項措施的時候也有提到，我們希望院版能夠趁今天這個機會儘快出來。","今天我們只排這一個法案，但其實跟整個軍隊紀律有關的有非常多法案，外患罪我已經提了，但它應該會在司法及法制委員會那邊，兩岸人民關係條例則會在內政委員會，所以很多法案並不在外交及國防委員會，但至少我們針對服役條例或陸海空軍刑法的部分，看要怎麼去研議把國安十法整體建立起來，我覺得應該是未來一個重要的方向。","我知道我時間已經到了，我就先講到這邊，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員。"],["主席（沈委員伯洋）：接下來有請鍾佳濱委員上台質詢。鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","接下來有請徐巧芯委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-8","speakers":["沈伯洋","陳冠廷","羅美玲","陳俊宇","林楚茵","王定宇","馬文君","徐巧芯","吳宗憲","邱志偉","林憶君","黃仁"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例部分條文修正草案」案（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1143702_00005"}}}