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\"透\", \"start\": 108.128, \"end\": 108.629, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 108.629, \"end\": 109.131, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 109.131, \"end\": 109.391, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 109.391, \"end\": 109.572, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 109.572, \"end\": 109.752, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 109.752, \"end\": 109.993, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 109.993, \"end\": 111.196, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 111.196, \"end\": 111.377, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 111.377, \"end\": 111.517, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 111.517, \"end\": 111.698, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 111.698, \"end\": 111.858, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"威\", \"start\": 111.858, \"end\": 112.299, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"嚇\"}, 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232.958, \"end\": 233.519, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 233.519, \"end\": 233.959, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 233.959, \"end\": 234.079, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 234.079, \"end\": 234.179, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 234.179, \"end\": 234.72, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 234.72, \"end\": 234.9, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 234.9, \"end\": 235.0, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 235.0, \"end\": 235.12, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 235.12, \"end\": 235.34, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 235.34, \"end\": 235.46, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 235.46, \"end\": 235.541, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 235.541, \"end\": 235.661, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 235.661, \"end\": 235.801, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 235.801, \"end\": 235.901, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 235.901, \"end\": 236.001, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 236.001, \"end\": 236.021, \"score\": 0.015}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 236.021, \"end\": 236.041, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 239.039, \"end\": 267.419, \"text\": \"我想剛剛曾政局有提到大概有幾個吸收的一些手法那當然財務是一個是一個那個所以剛剛徐委員也有在問到緊按貸款的這個部分我們也要現在正在跟行政局有一個緊按貸款那所以財務的部分也有可能是一個那這樣喔部長因為時間的關係我想說財務這個是最低階的思考當然還有其他我剛剛提到信仰等等的可能性因為都推給財務或者是\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 239.039, \"end\": 239.26, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 239.26, \"end\": 240.38, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"曾\", \"start\": 240.38, \"end\": 240.541, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 240.541, \"end\": 240.701, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 514.862, \"end\": 515.242, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 515.242, \"end\": 515.382, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 515.382, \"end\": 515.522, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 515.522, \"end\": 515.622, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 515.622, \"end\": 515.882, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 515.882, \"end\": 516.282, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 516.282, \"end\": 516.302, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 517.583, \"end\": 544.541, \"text\": \"那個報告給我參考一下那我來了解一下目前國安部的想法就這一點跟委員報告因為它幾個法都有相關性就是這個國安法13條然後還有我們的服役條例還有退伍會的相關的規定現在的內部分工上面就我們是以國安法13條作為一個法務部主導作為一個基礎那我們其他就來參照這個國安法13條的規定來加以規範\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 517.583, \"end\": 517.943, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 517.943, \"end\": 518.203, \"score\": 0.897}, 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00:01:16,511\n像委員報告以往案例最高曾經拿到一千多萬一千多萬好謝謝好那這一次我是想請教一下就是說那我們這一次的國防部的這個草案有提到可以剝奪退休金那你們有研判過這個剝奪退休金它能夠有效防止軍人成為共諜嗎\n\n4\n00:01:18,927 --> 00:01:44,142\n我想就這個部分主要的目的是在於就是說他因為對國家還有一個還在領退儲給予的這個權利的情況之下有一個忠誠的義務那如果他有違反這樣子的一個忠誠的義務的情況之下我們認為他不應該再有領受退儲給予的這樣的一個權利所以這個是懲罰他並不是說預防將來大家成為共諜是不是\n\n5\n00:01:46,985 --> 00:01:52,741\n我們當然希望透過這一個法律的制定會產生一定的威嚇的效果\n\n6\n00:01:54,205 --> 00:02:16,304\n那這樣我想說從過往的例子我們大概初步的來看大概就不外乎錢利益女人或者是信仰等等的那我覺得就是說因為過往政府他有一個習慣遇到狀況就是大撒幣大補助那這一次政府也有一個賴總統有一個想法就是說他弄一個對自己的黨工成立一個救助金\n\n7\n00:02:17,125 --> 00:02:33,786\n那這個救助金因為我在思考這個點當然這個不是國家出的錢這真的對於預防共諜有它的效果嗎其實我是打一個問號因為有人他可能是依據信仰而來嘛因為你說他可能是長期民進黨的黨工或高官其實他對經濟是沒有任何\n\n8\n00:02:35,768 --> 00:02:51,887\n困難或甚至說他只是愛錢他經濟沒有困難他就是喜歡金錢然後這時候這樣子真的能夠有效去制止這個成為共諜這是我的一個問題所以我是希望說可以的我希望說你們能夠提供給我一些資料\n\n9\n00:02:52,667 --> 00:03:19,383\n就是這段時間你們調查的結果就成為共諜你們後來一定有做一些研判嘛那這個研判資料可不可以給我就是大概在什麼樣的情況下什麼樣的背景下他可能會變成朝共諜這個方向就好像你當過金管會你一定知道譬如說紅旗警訊等等的對於一些企業他可能會爆發這樣會爆發一些金融上面的問題一定會有一些警訊的那個那個例子跟sample在那裡那是不是國防部有這種東西那這個\n\n10\n00:03:21,144 --> 00:03:32,645\n當然就是未來在教育軍人的時候可以用到那如果是不是國防部有那有可以提供我一份讓我參考嗎您是說有關吸收的共諜的方法\n\n11\n00:03:33,759 --> 00:03:56,041\n就是他成為就是他從正常的一個軍人愛國愛家的一個軍人後來變成反而是提供資料給對岸的共諜那他的風險可能是什麼就我剛剛跟您提到了就像商場中的紅旗警訊的這個概念什麼樣的狀況下他可能會有那個高風險的情況發生我希望說國安部能不能給我們一個這個資料讓我參考一下\n\n12\n00:03:59,039 --> 00:04:27,419\n我想剛剛曾政局有提到大概有幾個吸收的一些手法那當然財務是一個是一個那個所以剛剛徐委員也有在問到緊按貸款的這個部分我們也要現在正在跟行政局有一個緊按貸款那所以財務的部分也有可能是一個那這樣喔部長因為時間的關係我想說財務這個是最低階的思考當然還有其他我剛剛提到信仰等等的可能性因為都推給財務或者是\n\n13\n00:04:28,300 --> 00:04:43,295\n對當然還有不同的吸收的手法所以我們剛剛有提到有各種各種的另外軍審法的部分我想說因為大家一直講說最近這個共諜案很嚴重應該要加重處罰那加重處罰其實他應該處理的是國安法\n\n14\n00:04:44,336 --> 00:04:59,839\n軍人的話是入海公軍刑法那這個跟軍審判法關聯性在哪因為部長您是法律人嘛我也非常尊敬您那為什麼您以前說軍審判法沒必要那現在又要重開機因為它對於人民的保障是不夠的啊那我不知道部長您的想法\n\n15\n00:05:01,179 --> 00:05:20,687\n跟委員報告兩點,第一點就是說因為現在軍審法他事實上他沒有全盤的廢除軍審法的可能的適用也就是說他在這個暫時的情況之下他還是要重新啟動這個軍審法但是因為平時如果沒有做一個軍審法的這個實踐的話\n\n16\n00:05:24,549 --> 00:05:39,879\n那麼到了暫時幾乎沒有任何沒有任何的人量來進行所以他這是第一個第二個我已經也一再講過了就是說我對過去的軍神當然受到相當相關人民的不信任然後相關大法官\n\n17\n00:05:40,499 --> 00:06:01,657\n的解釋所質疑的這個部分我們都會在重開機的情況之下來避免這些違反大法官的質疑然後重新取得人民對於軍審的公平審判跟政黨法律程序原則的一個一個一個因為時間關係我就講我幾個想要給部長您建議或參考就好第一個就是說\n\n18\n00:06:03,579 --> 00:06:21,797\n程序上面畢竟他還是對於當事人的保障沒有優於刑事訴訟法所以我們不我先說我對於精神法要不要重新實施我認為有弊也有利所以我沒有下一個定論該或不該這是第一個我先說我不是說有一些人完全反對精神法\n\n19\n00:06:22,538 --> 00:06:39,120\n那個恢復就是開始那個停止凍結開始使用我沒有所以第一個我是想說我們要去弄清楚法律程序上面對於當事人的保障到底足不足夠那第二個就是說目前回歸到普通法院審理的\n\n20\n00:06:40,721 --> 00:06:55,728\n軍法審判案件它其實是最終的法律審才會走回最高法院那是不是說我們在一二審的四十審的時候要不要考量在四十審的時候就可以在二審就回歸到普通法案我說這個是一個思考的方向因為\n\n21\n00:06:56,528 --> 00:07:19,373\n法律省畢竟他是沒有在考量事實他是尊重一二省調查出來的事實法律省只看法律有沒有問題法律省再走回普通法院的話會不會緩不濟急無法救濟前面的損害這個是再麻煩部長您法律人一定聽得懂我在說什麼那再來就是現在的軍法官他是變成檢查事務官是在各地在桃園地檢等等的\n\n22\n00:07:20,273 --> 00:07:45,490\n他不是從事審判的工作他可能只是寫起訴書等幫助寫書類那這個在有一天你說要暖機再回過頭去再重新重拾這個審判業務的話他會非常的不習慣是不是他們應該要放在司法院在軍審辦法還沒恢復之前他們是不是應該要放在司法院這也是我們一個思考的方向那最後我想說一個PowerPoint我給\n\n23\n00:07:46,611 --> 00:08:09,349\n給您看一下就是我希望國防部一個禮拜內能夠給我一份報告就是有關這個24條跟4條草案的一些問題尤其是你要侵害到退休軍人的退休金這個是一個非常重大的事情所以是不是我們這個退休金的停止他能夠領退休金的權利的起算\n\n24\n00:08:09,989 --> 00:08:36,302\n或者是如何消滅如何恢復等等這個要有一個很完整的資料因為這個東西我們不能讓他變成未來任何一個黨執政之後變成拿來修理他不喜歡的退役軍人的那個條文嘛所以我希望如果國防部就這部分有提出草案那是否這個時間起算點等等的都能夠非常的明確啊這資料\n\n25\n00:08:37,583 --> 00:09:04,541\n那個報告給我參考一下那我來了解一下目前國安部的想法就這一點跟委員報告因為它幾個法都有相關性就是這個國安法13條然後還有我們的服役條例還有退伍會的相關的規定現在的內部分工上面就我們是以國安法13條作為一個法務部主導作為一個基礎那我們其他就來參照這個國安法13條的規定來加以規範\n\n26\n00:09:07,743 --> 00:09:25,326\n所以就這個部分的話可能法務部國安法的13條定案了之後我們就同步來進行草案的修正所以這個部分的話可能是可能要主要還是要看最後法務部定案的那個國安法13條\n\n27\n00:09:26,247 --> 00:09:43,739\n部長這個你們是怎麼法之間的牽連性這個我都能夠理解啦那是不是說你們現有的資料怎麼樣至少給我們參考那我們將來在對法務部的質詢或是對國安部的質詢我們才會有所依據我的立場只是這樣我們再提出我們國安部的這個的意見好謝謝部長謝謝各位將軍謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n209\t24971\t我們麻煩部長部長早安您辛苦了部長我想請教的問題大概一塊是有關違反國安法軍事關退休金的問題另外一個是軍審法的問題第一個我想請教一下就是我看到資料2020年到現在為止\n27453\t54224\t共點案我們起訴是159人那有6成是現役或現役的軍人那總共95人嘛其中軍官46人士官27人士兵22人那我想請教一下就這些案子裡面拿到對岸滲透勢力的酬勞依據你們之前調查那個最高的酬勞是什麼最高啊對對這個看看\n58478\t76511\t像委員報告以往案例最高曾經拿到一千多萬一千多萬好謝謝好那這一次我是想請教一下就是說那我們這一次的國防部的這個草案有提到可以剝奪退休金那你們有研判過這個剝奪退休金它能夠有效防止軍人成為共諜嗎\n78927\t104142\t我想就這個部分主要的目的是在於就是說他因為對國家還有一個還在領退儲給予的這個權利的情況之下有一個忠誠的義務那如果他有違反這樣子的一個忠誠的義務的情況之下我們認為他不應該再有領受退儲給予的這樣的一個權利所以這個是懲罰他並不是說預防將來大家成為共諜是不是\n106985\t112741\t我們當然希望透過這一個法律的制定會產生一定的威嚇的效果\n114205\t136304\t那這樣我想說從過往的例子我們大概初步的來看大概就不外乎錢利益女人或者是信仰等等的那我覺得就是說因為過往政府他有一個習慣遇到狀況就是大撒幣大補助那這一次政府也有一個賴總統有一個想法就是說他弄一個對自己的黨工成立一個救助金\n137125\t153786\t那這個救助金因為我在思考這個點當然這個不是國家出的錢這真的對於預防共諜有它的效果嗎其實我是打一個問號因為有人他可能是依據信仰而來嘛因為你說他可能是長期民進黨的黨工或高官其實他對經濟是沒有任何\n155768\t171887\t困難或甚至說他只是愛錢他經濟沒有困難他就是喜歡金錢然後這時候這樣子真的能夠有效去制止這個成為共諜這是我的一個問題所以我是希望說可以的我希望說你們能夠提供給我一些資料\n172667\t199383\t就是這段時間你們調查的結果就成為共諜你們後來一定有做一些研判嘛那這個研判資料可不可以給我就是大概在什麼樣的情況下什麼樣的背景下他可能會變成朝共諜這個方向就好像你當過金管會你一定知道譬如說紅旗警訊等等的對於一些企業他可能會爆發這樣會爆發一些金融上面的問題一定會有一些警訊的那個那個例子跟sample在那裡那是不是國防部有這種東西那這個\n201144\t212645\t當然就是未來在教育軍人的時候可以用到那如果是不是國防部有那有可以提供我一份讓我參考嗎您是說有關吸收的共諜的方法\n213759\t236041\t就是他成為就是他從正常的一個軍人愛國愛家的一個軍人後來變成反而是提供資料給對岸的共諜那他的風險可能是什麼就我剛剛跟您提到了就像商場中的紅旗警訊的這個概念什麼樣的狀況下他可能會有那個高風險的情況發生我希望說國安部能不能給我們一個這個資料讓我參考一下\n239039\t267419\t我想剛剛曾政局有提到大概有幾個吸收的一些手法那當然財務是一個是一個那個所以剛剛徐委員也有在問到緊按貸款的這個部分我們也要現在正在跟行政局有一個緊按貸款那所以財務的部分也有可能是一個那這樣喔部長因為時間的關係我想說財務這個是最低階的思考當然還有其他我剛剛提到信仰等等的可能性因為都推給財務或者是\n268300\t283295\t對當然還有不同的吸收的手法所以我們剛剛有提到有各種各種的另外軍審法的部分我想說因為大家一直講說最近這個共諜案很嚴重應該要加重處罰那加重處罰其實他應該處理的是國安法\n284336\t299839\t軍人的話是入海公軍刑法那這個跟軍審判法關聯性在哪因為部長您是法律人嘛我也非常尊敬您那為什麼您以前說軍審判法沒必要那現在又要重開機因為它對於人民的保障是不夠的啊那我不知道部長您的想法\n301179\t320687\t跟委員報告兩點,第一點就是說因為現在軍審法他事實上他沒有全盤的廢除軍審法的可能的適用也就是說他在這個暫時的情況之下他還是要重新啟動這個軍審法但是因為平時如果沒有做一個軍審法的這個實踐的話\n324549\t339879\t那麼到了暫時幾乎沒有任何沒有任何的人量來進行所以他這是第一個第二個我已經也一再講過了就是說我對過去的軍神當然受到相當相關人民的不信任然後相關大法官\n340499\t361657\t的解釋所質疑的這個部分我們都會在重開機的情況之下來避免這些違反大法官的質疑然後重新取得人民對於軍審的公平審判跟政黨法律程序原則的一個一個一個因為時間關係我就講我幾個想要給部長您建議或參考就好第一個就是說\n363579\t381797\t程序上面畢竟他還是對於當事人的保障沒有優於刑事訴訟法所以我們不我先說我對於精神法要不要重新實施我認為有弊也有利所以我沒有下一個定論該或不該這是第一個我先說我不是說有一些人完全反對精神法\n382538\t399120\t那個恢復就是開始那個停止凍結開始使用我沒有所以第一個我是想說我們要去弄清楚法律程序上面對於當事人的保障到底足不足夠那第二個就是說目前回歸到普通法院審理的\n400721\t415728\t軍法審判案件它其實是最終的法律審才會走回最高法院那是不是說我們在一二審的四十審的時候要不要考量在四十審的時候就可以在二審就回歸到普通法案我說這個是一個思考的方向因為\n416528\t439373\t法律省畢竟他是沒有在考量事實他是尊重一二省調查出來的事實法律省只看法律有沒有問題法律省再走回普通法院的話會不會緩不濟急無法救濟前面的損害這個是再麻煩部長您法律人一定聽得懂我在說什麼那再來就是現在的軍法官他是變成檢查事務官是在各地在桃園地檢等等的\n440273\t465490\t他不是從事審判的工作他可能只是寫起訴書等幫助寫書類那這個在有一天你說要暖機再回過頭去再重新重拾這個審判業務的話他會非常的不習慣是不是他們應該要放在司法院在軍審辦法還沒恢復之前他們是不是應該要放在司法院這也是我們一個思考的方向那最後我想說一個PowerPoint我給\n466611\t489349\t給您看一下 就是我希望國防部一個禮拜內能夠給我一份報告就是有關這個24條跟4條草案的一些問題尤其是你要侵害到退休軍人的退休金這個是一個非常重大的事情所以是不是我們這個退休金的 停止他能夠領退休金的權利的起算\n489989\t516302\t或者是如何消滅如何恢復等等這個要有一個很完整的資料因為這個東西我們不能讓他變成未來任何一個黨執政之後變成拿來修理他不喜歡的退役軍人的那個條文嘛所以我希望如果國防部就這部分有提出草案那是否這個時間起算點等等的都能夠非常的明確啊這資料\n517583\t544541\t那個報告給我參考一下那我來了解一下目前國安部的想法就這一點跟委員報告因為它幾個法都有相關性就是這個國安法13條然後還有我們的服役條例還有退伍會的相關的規定現在的內部分工上面就我們是以國安法13條作為一個法務部主導作為一個基礎那我們其他就來參照這個國安法13條的規定來加以規範\n547743\t565326\t所以就這個部分的話可能法務部國安法的13條定案了之後我們就同步來進行草案的修正所以這個部分的話可能是可能要主要還是要看最後法務部定案的那個國安法13條\n566247\t583739\t部長 這個你們是怎麼法之間的牽連性這個我都能夠理解啦那是不是說你們現有的資料怎麼樣至少給我們參考那我們將來在對法務部的質詢或是對國安部的質詢我們才會有所依據我的立場只是這樣我們再提出我們國安部的這個的意見好 謝謝部長 謝謝各位將軍 謝謝\n","txt":"我們麻煩部長部長早安您辛苦了部長我想請教的問題大概一塊是有關違反國安法軍事關退休金的問題另外一個是軍審法的問題第一個我想請教一下就是我看到資料2020年到現在為止\n共點案我們起訴是159人那有6成是現役或現役的軍人那總共95人嘛其中軍官46人士官27人士兵22人那我想請教一下就這些案子裡面拿到對岸滲透勢力的酬勞依據你們之前調查那個最高的酬勞是什麼最高啊對對這個看看\n像委員報告以往案例最高曾經拿到一千多萬一千多萬好謝謝好那這一次我是想請教一下就是說那我們這一次的國防部的這個草案有提到可以剝奪退休金那你們有研判過這個剝奪退休金它能夠有效防止軍人成為共諜嗎\n我想就這個部分主要的目的是在於就是說他因為對國家還有一個還在領退儲給予的這個權利的情況之下有一個忠誠的義務那如果他有違反這樣子的一個忠誠的義務的情況之下我們認為他不應該再有領受退儲給予的這樣的一個權利所以這個是懲罰他並不是說預防將來大家成為共諜是不是\n我們當然希望透過這一個法律的制定會產生一定的威嚇的效果\n那這樣我想說從過往的例子我們大概初步的來看大概就不外乎錢利益女人或者是信仰等等的那我覺得就是說因為過往政府他有一個習慣遇到狀況就是大撒幣大補助那這一次政府也有一個賴總統有一個想法就是說他弄一個對自己的黨工成立一個救助金\n那這個救助金因為我在思考這個點當然這個不是國家出的錢這真的對於預防共諜有它的效果嗎其實我是打一個問號因為有人他可能是依據信仰而來嘛因為你說他可能是長期民進黨的黨工或高官其實他對經濟是沒有任何\n困難或甚至說他只是愛錢他經濟沒有困難他就是喜歡金錢然後這時候這樣子真的能夠有效去制止這個成為共諜這是我的一個問題所以我是希望說可以的我希望說你們能夠提供給我一些資料\n就是這段時間你們調查的結果就成為共諜你們後來一定有做一些研判嘛那這個研判資料可不可以給我就是大概在什麼樣的情況下什麼樣的背景下他可能會變成朝共諜這個方向就好像你當過金管會你一定知道譬如說紅旗警訊等等的對於一些企業他可能會爆發這樣會爆發一些金融上面的問題一定會有一些警訊的那個那個例子跟sample在那裡那是不是國防部有這種東西那這個\n當然就是未來在教育軍人的時候可以用到那如果是不是國防部有那有可以提供我一份讓我參考嗎您是說有關吸收的共諜的方法\n就是他成為就是他從正常的一個軍人愛國愛家的一個軍人後來變成反而是提供資料給對岸的共諜那他的風險可能是什麼就我剛剛跟您提到了就像商場中的紅旗警訊的這個概念什麼樣的狀況下他可能會有那個高風險的情況發生我希望說國安部能不能給我們一個這個資料讓我參考一下\n我想剛剛曾政局有提到大概有幾個吸收的一些手法那當然財務是一個是一個那個所以剛剛徐委員也有在問到緊按貸款的這個部分我們也要現在正在跟行政局有一個緊按貸款那所以財務的部分也有可能是一個那這樣喔部長因為時間的關係我想說財務這個是最低階的思考當然還有其他我剛剛提到信仰等等的可能性因為都推給財務或者是\n對當然還有不同的吸收的手法所以我們剛剛有提到有各種各種的另外軍審法的部分我想說因為大家一直講說最近這個共諜案很嚴重應該要加重處罰那加重處罰其實他應該處理的是國安法\n軍人的話是入海公軍刑法那這個跟軍審判法關聯性在哪因為部長您是法律人嘛我也非常尊敬您那為什麼您以前說軍審判法沒必要那現在又要重開機因為它對於人民的保障是不夠的啊那我不知道部長您的想法\n跟委員報告兩點,第一點就是說因為現在軍審法他事實上他沒有全盤的廢除軍審法的可能的適用也就是說他在這個暫時的情況之下他還是要重新啟動這個軍審法但是因為平時如果沒有做一個軍審法的這個實踐的話\n那麼到了暫時幾乎沒有任何沒有任何的人量來進行所以他這是第一個第二個我已經也一再講過了就是說我對過去的軍神當然受到相當相關人民的不信任然後相關大法官\n的解釋所質疑的這個部分我們都會在重開機的情況之下來避免這些違反大法官的質疑然後重新取得人民對於軍審的公平審判跟政黨法律程序原則的一個一個一個因為時間關係我就講我幾個想要給部長您建議或參考就好第一個就是說\n程序上面畢竟他還是對於當事人的保障沒有優於刑事訴訟法所以我們不我先說我對於精神法要不要重新實施我認為有弊也有利所以我沒有下一個定論該或不該這是第一個我先說我不是說有一些人完全反對精神法\n那個恢復就是開始那個停止凍結開始使用我沒有所以第一個我是想說我們要去弄清楚法律程序上面對於當事人的保障到底足不足夠那第二個就是說目前回歸到普通法院審理的\n軍法審判案件它其實是最終的法律審才會走回最高法院那是不是說我們在一二審的四十審的時候要不要考量在四十審的時候就可以在二審就回歸到普通法案我說這個是一個思考的方向因為\n法律省畢竟他是沒有在考量事實他是尊重一二省調查出來的事實法律省只看法律有沒有問題法律省再走回普通法院的話會不會緩不濟急無法救濟前面的損害這個是再麻煩部長您法律人一定聽得懂我在說什麼那再來就是現在的軍法官他是變成檢查事務官是在各地在桃園地檢等等的\n他不是從事審判的工作他可能只是寫起訴書等幫助寫書類那這個在有一天你說要暖機再回過頭去再重新重拾這個審判業務的話他會非常的不習慣是不是他們應該要放在司法院在軍審辦法還沒恢復之前他們是不是應該要放在司法院這也是我們一個思考的方向那最後我想說一個PowerPoint我給\n給您看一下 就是我希望國防部一個禮拜內能夠給我一份報告就是有關這個24條跟4條草案的一些問題尤其是你要侵害到退休軍人的退休金這個是一個非常重大的事情所以是不是我們這個退休金的 停止他能夠領退休金的權利的起算\n或者是如何消滅如何恢復等等這個要有一個很完整的資料因為這個東西我們不能讓他變成未來任何一個黨執政之後變成拿來修理他不喜歡的退役軍人的那個條文嘛所以我希望如果國防部就這部分有提出草案那是否這個時間起算點等等的都能夠非常的明確啊這資料\n那個報告給我參考一下那我來了解一下目前國安部的想法就這一點跟委員報告因為它幾個法都有相關性就是這個國安法13條然後還有我們的服役條例還有退伍會的相關的規定現在的內部分工上面就我們是以國安法13條作為一個法務部主導作為一個基礎那我們其他就來參照這個國安法13條的規定來加以規範\n所以就這個部分的話可能法務部國安法的13條定案了之後我們就同步來進行草案的修正所以這個部分的話可能是可能要主要還是要看最後法務部定案的那個國安法13條\n部長 這個你們是怎麼法之間的牽連性這個我都能夠理解啦那是不是說你們現有的資料怎麼樣至少給我們參考那我們將來在對法務部的質詢或是對國安部的質詢我們才會有所依據我的立場只是這樣我們再提出我們國安部的這個的意見好 謝謝部長 謝謝各位將軍 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.209 --> 00:24.971\n我們麻煩部長部長早安您辛苦了部長我想請教的問題大概一塊是有關違反國安法軍事關退休金的問題另外一個是軍審法的問題第一個我想請教一下就是我看到資料2020年到現在為止\n\n00:27.453 --> 00:54.224\n共點案我們起訴是159人那有6成是現役或現役的軍人那總共95人嘛其中軍官46人士官27人士兵22人那我想請教一下就這些案子裡面拿到對岸滲透勢力的酬勞依據你們之前調查那個最高的酬勞是什麼最高啊對對這個看看\n\n00:58.478 --> 01:16.511\n像委員報告以往案例最高曾經拿到一千多萬一千多萬好謝謝好那這一次我是想請教一下就是說那我們這一次的國防部的這個草案有提到可以剝奪退休金那你們有研判過這個剝奪退休金它能夠有效防止軍人成為共諜嗎\n\n01:18.927 --> 01:44.142\n我想就這個部分主要的目的是在於就是說他因為對國家還有一個還在領退儲給予的這個權利的情況之下有一個忠誠的義務那如果他有違反這樣子的一個忠誠的義務的情況之下我們認為他不應該再有領受退儲給予的這樣的一個權利所以這個是懲罰他並不是說預防將來大家成為共諜是不是\n\n01:46.985 --> 01:52.741\n我們當然希望透過這一個法律的制定會產生一定的威嚇的效果\n\n01:54.205 --> 02:16.304\n那這樣我想說從過往的例子我們大概初步的來看大概就不外乎錢利益女人或者是信仰等等的那我覺得就是說因為過往政府他有一個習慣遇到狀況就是大撒幣大補助那這一次政府也有一個賴總統有一個想法就是說他弄一個對自己的黨工成立一個救助金\n\n02:17.125 --> 02:33.786\n那這個救助金因為我在思考這個點當然這個不是國家出的錢這真的對於預防共諜有它的效果嗎其實我是打一個問號因為有人他可能是依據信仰而來嘛因為你說他可能是長期民進黨的黨工或高官其實他對經濟是沒有任何\n\n02:35.768 --> 02:51.887\n困難或甚至說他只是愛錢他經濟沒有困難他就是喜歡金錢然後這時候這樣子真的能夠有效去制止這個成為共諜這是我的一個問題所以我是希望說可以的我希望說你們能夠提供給我一些資料\n\n02:52.667 --> 03:19.383\n就是這段時間你們調查的結果就成為共諜你們後來一定有做一些研判嘛那這個研判資料可不可以給我就是大概在什麼樣的情況下什麼樣的背景下他可能會變成朝共諜這個方向就好像你當過金管會你一定知道譬如說紅旗警訊等等的對於一些企業他可能會爆發這樣會爆發一些金融上面的問題一定會有一些警訊的那個那個例子跟sample在那裡那是不是國防部有這種東西那這個\n\n03:21.144 --> 03:32.645\n當然就是未來在教育軍人的時候可以用到那如果是不是國防部有那有可以提供我一份讓我參考嗎您是說有關吸收的共諜的方法\n\n03:33.759 --> 03:56.041\n就是他成為就是他從正常的一個軍人愛國愛家的一個軍人後來變成反而是提供資料給對岸的共諜那他的風險可能是什麼就我剛剛跟您提到了就像商場中的紅旗警訊的這個概念什麼樣的狀況下他可能會有那個高風險的情況發生我希望說國安部能不能給我們一個這個資料讓我參考一下\n\n03:59.039 --> 04:27.419\n我想剛剛曾政局有提到大概有幾個吸收的一些手法那當然財務是一個是一個那個所以剛剛徐委員也有在問到緊按貸款的這個部分我們也要現在正在跟行政局有一個緊按貸款那所以財務的部分也有可能是一個那這樣喔部長因為時間的關係我想說財務這個是最低階的思考當然還有其他我剛剛提到信仰等等的可能性因為都推給財務或者是\n\n04:28.300 --> 04:43.295\n對當然還有不同的吸收的手法所以我們剛剛有提到有各種各種的另外軍審法的部分我想說因為大家一直講說最近這個共諜案很嚴重應該要加重處罰那加重處罰其實他應該處理的是國安法\n\n04:44.336 --> 04:59.839\n軍人的話是入海公軍刑法那這個跟軍審判法關聯性在哪因為部長您是法律人嘛我也非常尊敬您那為什麼您以前說軍審判法沒必要那現在又要重開機因為它對於人民的保障是不夠的啊那我不知道部長您的想法\n\n05:01.179 --> 05:20.687\n跟委員報告兩點,第一點就是說因為現在軍審法他事實上他沒有全盤的廢除軍審法的可能的適用也就是說他在這個暫時的情況之下他還是要重新啟動這個軍審法但是因為平時如果沒有做一個軍審法的這個實踐的話\n\n05:24.549 --> 05:39.879\n那麼到了暫時幾乎沒有任何沒有任何的人量來進行所以他這是第一個第二個我已經也一再講過了就是說我對過去的軍神當然受到相當相關人民的不信任然後相關大法官\n\n05:40.499 --> 06:01.657\n的解釋所質疑的這個部分我們都會在重開機的情況之下來避免這些違反大法官的質疑然後重新取得人民對於軍審的公平審判跟政黨法律程序原則的一個一個一個因為時間關係我就講我幾個想要給部長您建議或參考就好第一個就是說\n\n06:03.579 --> 06:21.797\n程序上面畢竟他還是對於當事人的保障沒有優於刑事訴訟法所以我們不我先說我對於精神法要不要重新實施我認為有弊也有利所以我沒有下一個定論該或不該這是第一個我先說我不是說有一些人完全反對精神法\n\n06:22.538 --> 06:39.120\n那個恢復就是開始那個停止凍結開始使用我沒有所以第一個我是想說我們要去弄清楚法律程序上面對於當事人的保障到底足不足夠那第二個就是說目前回歸到普通法院審理的\n\n06:40.721 --> 06:55.728\n軍法審判案件它其實是最終的法律審才會走回最高法院那是不是說我們在一二審的四十審的時候要不要考量在四十審的時候就可以在二審就回歸到普通法案我說這個是一個思考的方向因為\n\n06:56.528 --> 07:19.373\n法律省畢竟他是沒有在考量事實他是尊重一二省調查出來的事實法律省只看法律有沒有問題法律省再走回普通法院的話會不會緩不濟急無法救濟前面的損害這個是再麻煩部長您法律人一定聽得懂我在說什麼那再來就是現在的軍法官他是變成檢查事務官是在各地在桃園地檢等等的\n\n07:20.273 --> 07:45.490\n他不是從事審判的工作他可能只是寫起訴書等幫助寫書類那這個在有一天你說要暖機再回過頭去再重新重拾這個審判業務的話他會非常的不習慣是不是他們應該要放在司法院在軍審辦法還沒恢復之前他們是不是應該要放在司法院這也是我們一個思考的方向那最後我想說一個PowerPoint我給\n\n07:46.611 --> 08:09.349\n給您看一下就是我希望國防部一個禮拜內能夠給我一份報告就是有關這個24條跟4條草案的一些問題尤其是你要侵害到退休軍人的退休金這個是一個非常重大的事情所以是不是我們這個退休金的停止他能夠領退休金的權利的起算\n\n08:09.989 --> 08:36.302\n或者是如何消滅如何恢復等等這個要有一個很完整的資料因為這個東西我們不能讓他變成未來任何一個黨執政之後變成拿來修理他不喜歡的退役軍人的那個條文嘛所以我希望如果國防部就這部分有提出草案那是否這個時間起算點等等的都能夠非常的明確啊這資料\n\n08:37.583 --> 09:04.541\n那個報告給我參考一下那我來了解一下目前國安部的想法就這一點跟委員報告因為它幾個法都有相關性就是這個國安法13條然後還有我們的服役條例還有退伍會的相關的規定現在的內部分工上面就我們是以國安法13條作為一個法務部主導作為一個基礎那我們其他就來參照這個國安法13條的規定來加以規範\n\n09:07.743 --> 09:25.326\n所以就這個部分的話可能法務部國安法的13條定案了之後我們就同步來進行草案的修正所以這個部分的話可能是可能要主要還是要看最後法務部定案的那個國安法13條\n\n09:26.247 --> 09:43.739\n部長這個你們是怎麼法之間的牽連性這個我都能夠理解啦那是不是說你們現有的資料怎麼樣至少給我們參考那我們將來在對法務部的質詢或是對國安部的質詢我們才會有所依據我的立場只是這樣我們再提出我們國安部的這個的意見好謝謝部長謝謝各位將軍謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.209,"end":24.971,"text":"我們麻煩部長部長早安您辛苦了部長我想請教的問題大概一塊是有關違反國安法軍事關退休金的問題另外一個是軍審法的問題第一個我想請教一下就是我看到資料2020年到現在為止"},{"start":27.453,"end":54.224,"text":"共點案我們起訴是159人那有6成是現役或現役的軍人那總共95人嘛其中軍官46人士官27人士兵22人那我想請教一下就這些案子裡面拿到對岸滲透勢力的酬勞依據你們之前調查那個最高的酬勞是什麼最高啊對對這個看看"},{"start":58.478,"end":76.511,"text":"像委員報告以往案例最高曾經拿到一千多萬一千多萬好謝謝好那這一次我是想請教一下就是說那我們這一次的國防部的這個草案有提到可以剝奪退休金那你們有研判過這個剝奪退休金它能夠有效防止軍人成為共諜嗎"},{"start":78.927,"end":104.142,"text":"我想就這個部分主要的目的是在於就是說他因為對國家還有一個還在領退儲給予的這個權利的情況之下有一個忠誠的義務那如果他有違反這樣子的一個忠誠的義務的情況之下我們認為他不應該再有領受退儲給予的這樣的一個權利所以這個是懲罰他並不是說預防將來大家成為共諜是不是"},{"start":106.985,"end":112.741,"text":"我們當然希望透過這一個法律的制定會產生一定的威嚇的效果"},{"start":114.205,"end":136.304,"text":"那這樣我想說從過往的例子我們大概初步的來看大概就不外乎錢利益女人或者是信仰等等的那我覺得就是說因為過往政府他有一個習慣遇到狀況就是大撒幣大補助那這一次政府也有一個賴總統有一個想法就是說他弄一個對自己的黨工成立一個救助金"},{"start":137.125,"end":153.786,"text":"那這個救助金因為我在思考這個點當然這個不是國家出的錢這真的對於預防共諜有它的效果嗎其實我是打一個問號因為有人他可能是依據信仰而來嘛因為你說他可能是長期民進黨的黨工或高官其實他對經濟是沒有任何"},{"start":155.768,"end":171.887,"text":"困難或甚至說他只是愛錢他經濟沒有困難他就是喜歡金錢然後這時候這樣子真的能夠有效去制止這個成為共諜這是我的一個問題所以我是希望說可以的我希望說你們能夠提供給我一些資料"},{"start":172.667,"end":199.383,"text":"就是這段時間你們調查的結果就成為共諜你們後來一定有做一些研判嘛那這個研判資料可不可以給我就是大概在什麼樣的情況下什麼樣的背景下他可能會變成朝共諜這個方向就好像你當過金管會你一定知道譬如說紅旗警訊等等的對於一些企業他可能會爆發這樣會爆發一些金融上面的問題一定會有一些警訊的那個那個例子跟sample在那裡那是不是國防部有這種東西那這個"},{"start":201.144,"end":212.645,"text":"當然就是未來在教育軍人的時候可以用到那如果是不是國防部有那有可以提供我一份讓我參考嗎您是說有關吸收的共諜的方法"},{"start":213.759,"end":236.041,"text":"就是他成為就是他從正常的一個軍人愛國愛家的一個軍人後來變成反而是提供資料給對岸的共諜那他的風險可能是什麼就我剛剛跟您提到了就像商場中的紅旗警訊的這個概念什麼樣的狀況下他可能會有那個高風險的情況發生我希望說國安部能不能給我們一個這個資料讓我參考一下"},{"start":239.039,"end":267.419,"text":"我想剛剛曾政局有提到大概有幾個吸收的一些手法那當然財務是一個是一個那個所以剛剛徐委員也有在問到緊按貸款的這個部分我們也要現在正在跟行政局有一個緊按貸款那所以財務的部分也有可能是一個那這樣喔部長因為時間的關係我想說財務這個是最低階的思考當然還有其他我剛剛提到信仰等等的可能性因為都推給財務或者是"},{"start":268.3,"end":283.295,"text":"對當然還有不同的吸收的手法所以我們剛剛有提到有各種各種的另外軍審法的部分我想說因為大家一直講說最近這個共諜案很嚴重應該要加重處罰那加重處罰其實他應該處理的是國安法"},{"start":284.336,"end":299.839,"text":"軍人的話是入海公軍刑法那這個跟軍審判法關聯性在哪因為部長您是法律人嘛我也非常尊敬您那為什麼您以前說軍審判法沒必要那現在又要重開機因為它對於人民的保障是不夠的啊那我不知道部長您的想法"},{"start":301.179,"end":320.687,"text":"跟委員報告兩點,第一點就是說因為現在軍審法他事實上他沒有全盤的廢除軍審法的可能的適用也就是說他在這個暫時的情況之下他還是要重新啟動這個軍審法但是因為平時如果沒有做一個軍審法的這個實踐的話"},{"start":324.549,"end":339.879,"text":"那麼到了暫時幾乎沒有任何沒有任何的人量來進行所以他這是第一個第二個我已經也一再講過了就是說我對過去的軍神當然受到相當相關人民的不信任然後相關大法官"},{"start":340.499,"end":361.657,"text":"的解釋所質疑的這個部分我們都會在重開機的情況之下來避免這些違反大法官的質疑然後重新取得人民對於軍審的公平審判跟政黨法律程序原則的一個一個一個因為時間關係我就講我幾個想要給部長您建議或參考就好第一個就是說"},{"start":363.579,"end":381.797,"text":"程序上面畢竟他還是對於當事人的保障沒有優於刑事訴訟法所以我們不我先說我對於精神法要不要重新實施我認為有弊也有利所以我沒有下一個定論該或不該這是第一個我先說我不是說有一些人完全反對精神法"},{"start":382.538,"end":399.12,"text":"那個恢復就是開始那個停止凍結開始使用我沒有所以第一個我是想說我們要去弄清楚法律程序上面對於當事人的保障到底足不足夠那第二個就是說目前回歸到普通法院審理的"},{"start":400.721,"end":415.728,"text":"軍法審判案件它其實是最終的法律審才會走回最高法院那是不是說我們在一二審的四十審的時候要不要考量在四十審的時候就可以在二審就回歸到普通法案我說這個是一個思考的方向因為"},{"start":416.528,"end":439.373,"text":"法律省畢竟他是沒有在考量事實他是尊重一二省調查出來的事實法律省只看法律有沒有問題法律省再走回普通法院的話會不會緩不濟急無法救濟前面的損害這個是再麻煩部長您法律人一定聽得懂我在說什麼那再來就是現在的軍法官他是變成檢查事務官是在各地在桃園地檢等等的"},{"start":440.273,"end":465.49,"text":"他不是從事審判的工作他可能只是寫起訴書等幫助寫書類那這個在有一天你說要暖機再回過頭去再重新重拾這個審判業務的話他會非常的不習慣是不是他們應該要放在司法院在軍審辦法還沒恢復之前他們是不是應該要放在司法院這也是我們一個思考的方向那最後我想說一個PowerPoint我給"},{"start":466.611,"end":489.349,"text":"給您看一下 就是我希望國防部一個禮拜內能夠給我一份報告就是有關這個24條跟4條草案的一些問題尤其是你要侵害到退休軍人的退休金這個是一個非常重大的事情所以是不是我們這個退休金的 停止他能夠領退休金的權利的起算"},{"start":489.989,"end":516.302,"text":"或者是如何消滅如何恢復等等這個要有一個很完整的資料因為這個東西我們不能讓他變成未來任何一個黨執政之後變成拿來修理他不喜歡的退役軍人的那個條文嘛所以我希望如果國防部就這部分有提出草案那是否這個時間起算點等等的都能夠非常的明確啊這資料"},{"start":517.583,"end":544.541,"text":"那個報告給我參考一下那我來了解一下目前國安部的想法就這一點跟委員報告因為它幾個法都有相關性就是這個國安法13條然後還有我們的服役條例還有退伍會的相關的規定現在的內部分工上面就我們是以國安法13條作為一個法務部主導作為一個基礎那我們其他就來參照這個國安法13條的規定來加以規範"},{"start":547.743,"end":565.326,"text":"所以就這個部分的話可能法務部國安法的13條定案了之後我們就同步來進行草案的修正所以這個部分的話可能是可能要主要還是要看最後法務部定案的那個國安法13條"},{"start":566.247,"end":583.739,"text":"部長 這個你們是怎麼法之間的牽連性這個我都能夠理解啦那是不是說你們現有的資料怎麼樣至少給我們參考那我們將來在對法務部的質詢或是對國安部的質詢我們才會有所依據我的立場只是這樣我們再提出我們國安部的這個的意見好 謝謝部長 謝謝各位將軍 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":480,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（10時55分）謝謝主席，麻煩部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：吳委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長早安，您辛苦了。部長，我想請教的問題，一塊是有關違反國安法軍士官退休金的問題，另外一個是軍審法的問題。第一個，我想請教一下，我看到資料，從2020年到現在為止共諜案一共起訴159人，有六成是現役的軍人、總共95人，其中軍官6人、士官27人、士兵22人。我想請教一下，就這些案子裡面，拿到對岸滲透勢力的酬勞，依據你們之前的調查，最高的酬勞是什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：最高啊？"],["吳委員宗憲：對。"],["簡處長熒宏：向委員報告，就以往案例，最高曾經拿到一千多萬。"],["吳委員宗憲：一千多萬，好，謝謝。我想請教一下，這一次國防部的草案有提到可以剝奪退休金，你們有研判過剝奪退休金能夠有效防制軍人成為共諜嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：就這個部分，主要的目的是在於他還在領退除給與的情況之下，負有忠誠的義務，如果他有違反忠誠義務的情況之下，我們認為他不應該再領受退除給與的權利。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以這個是懲罰他，並不是預防將來大家成為共諜，是不是？"],["顧部長立雄：我們當然希望透過這個法律的制定，會產生一定的威嚇效果。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。我想從過往的例子初步來看，大概不外乎錢、利益、女人或是信仰等等。過往政府有一個習慣，就是遇到狀況就大撒幣、大補助，這一次賴總統也有一個想法，就是他對自己的黨工成立一個救助金的制度，當然，這不是國家出的錢，但是這真的對於預防共諜有效果嗎？其實我是打一個問號，因為有人可能是依據信仰而來，他可能是長期民進黨的黨工或高官，其實他在經濟上沒有任何困難，或者甚至他在經濟上沒有困難，只是愛錢、喜歡金錢，所以這樣子真的能夠有效制止成為共諜嗎？這是我的問題。","所以我希望你們能夠提供我一些資料，就是這段時間你們調查的結果，他們會成為共諜，你們一定有做一些研判，這個研判資料可不可以給我，讓我瞭解大概在什麼樣的情況之下、什麼樣的背景下，他可能會變成共諜？就好像您當過金管會主委，一定知道紅旗警訊等等，企業將來會爆發金融上面的問題，一定會有一些警訊的例子及sample，是不是國防部有這種東西？這個資料在未來教育軍人的時候可以用到。國防部是不是有？如果有，可不可以提供我一份，讓我參考？"],["顧部長立雄：您是說有關吸收共諜的方……"],["吳委員宗憲：就是他從正常的愛國、愛家的軍人，後來變成反而是提供資料給對岸的共諜，他的風險可能是什麼？就是我剛剛跟您提到的，就像商場中紅旗警訊的概念，什麼樣的狀況下他可能會有高風險的情況發生？國防部能不能給我們這個資料，讓我參考一下？"],["顧部長立雄：剛剛政戰局有提到，大概有幾個吸收的手法，當然，財務是一個，所以剛剛徐委員也有問到急難貸款的部分，我們現在正在跟行政院溝通，希望有一個急難貸款。所以財務的部分也有可能是一個可能的破口。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，部長，因為時間的關係，我想說財務這個是最低階的思考，當然還有其他我剛剛提到信仰等等的可能性，因為都推給財務或者都用大撒幣的方式，這不是解決問題的方法。"],["顧部長立雄：對，當然還有不同的吸收手法，所以我們剛剛有提到有各種的可能。"],["吳委員宗憲：OK，好，謝謝。另外，軍審法的部分，我想說因為大家一直講說最近共諜案很嚴重，應該要加重處罰，對於加重處罰，其實應該處理的是國安法，軍人的話是陸海空軍刑法，這個跟軍事審判法關聯性在哪裡？因為部長您是法律人嘛！我也非常尊敬您，為什麼您以前說軍事審判法沒必要？那現在又要重開機，因為它對於人民的保障是不夠的啊，我不知道部長您的想法？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告兩點，第一點就是說因為現在軍審法事實上沒有全盤廢除軍審法可能的適用，也就是說在戰時的情況之下還是要重新啟動軍審法，但是因為平時如果沒有做軍審法的實踐的話，那麼到了戰時幾乎沒有任何的能量來進行，所以這是第一個。第二個，我已經也一再講過了，就是對於過去的軍審受到相關人民的不信任，然後相關大法官解釋所質疑的這個部分，我們都會在重開機的情況之下，來避免這些違反大法官的質疑，然後重新取得人民對於軍審的公平審判跟正當法律程序原則的一個……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，部長，我了解了，因為時間的關係，我就講幾個想法、建議給部長參考就好，第一個就是在程序上面，畢竟它對於當事人的保障還是沒有優於刑事訴訟法，我先說我對於軍審法要不要重新實施，我認為有弊也有利，所以我沒有下一個定論，該或不該，這是第一個我先說，我不是說有一些人完全反對軍審法恢復，就是停止凍結、開始適用，我沒有，所以第一個，我是想說我們要去弄清楚法律程序上面對於當事人的保障到底足不足夠。第二個，目前回歸到普通法院審理的軍法審判案件，其實是最終的法律審才會走回最高法院，那我們在一、二審的事實審的時候，要不要考量在事實審的二審就回歸到普通法院，我是說這個是一個思考的方向啦，因為法律審畢竟沒有在考量事實，它是尊重一、二審調查出來的事實，法律審只看法律有沒有問題，法律審再走回普通法院的話會不會緩不濟急，無法救濟前面的損害？這個再麻煩部長，您是法律人，一定聽得懂我在說什麼。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：再來就是現在的軍法官是變成檢察事務官，是在各地、在桃園地檢等等的，他不是從事審判的工作，他可能只是寫起訴書等幫助寫書類，有一天你說要暖機再回過頭去再重新重拾審判業務的話，他會不會非常不習慣？是不是他們應該要放在司法院？在軍事審判法還沒恢復之前，他們是不是應該要放在司法院？這也是我們一個思考的方向啦！","最後我想說一張PowerPoint，我給您看一下，就是我希望國防部一個禮拜內能夠給我一份報告，有關第二十四條跟第四十條草案的一些問題，尤其是你要侵害到退休軍人的退休金，這個是一個非常重大的事情，所以對於停止他能夠領退休金的權利的起算，或者是如何消滅、如何恢復等等，這個要有一個很完整的資料，因為這個東西我們不能讓它在未來任何一個黨執政之後，變成拿來修理它不喜歡的退役軍人的條文嘛！所以我希望如果國防部就這個部分有提出草案，那是否時間起算點等等的都能夠非常地明確，這個資料、報告給我參考一下，我來了解一下目前國防部的想法。"],["顧部長立雄：就這一點跟委員報告，因為幾個法都有相關性，就是國安法第十三條，然後還有我們的服役條例，還有退輔會的相關的規定，現在的內部分工上面，我們是以國安法第十三條作為一個……法務部主導，作為一個基礎，我們其他的就參照國安法第十三條的規定來加以規範，所以就這一個部分的話，可能法務部如果國安法的第十三條定案了之後，我們就同步來進行草案的修正，所以這個部分可能主要還是要看最後法務部定案的國安法第十三條。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，你們是怎麼法之間的牽連性，這個我都能夠理解啦，是不是說你們現有的資料怎麼樣至少給我們參考，我們將來在對法務部的質詢或是對國防部的質詢，我們才會有所依據，我的立場只是這樣，這部分再麻煩部長。"],["顧部長立雄：我們再提出我們國防部的意見。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝部長、謝謝各位將軍，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員、謝謝部長。","接下來有請邱志偉委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-8","speakers":["沈伯洋","陳冠廷","羅美玲","陳俊宇","林楚茵","王定宇","馬文君","徐巧芯","吳宗憲","邱志偉","林憶君","黃仁"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例部分條文修正草案」案（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1143702_00005"}}}