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00:01:06,563\n因為這個檢舉的內容太匪夷所思了因為我們工股行庫的董事長待遇應該不錯怎麼會拿公關費去搞這種事情但是任何人跟我提檢舉我就必須要處理所以我開始下去追我發現土銀的公關費每年大概2800萬當然就工股行庫來講你有時候要去處理一些公關的事情我沒什麼意見\n\n3\n00:01:07,898 --> 00:01:37,185\n那董事長個人花的大概就百餘萬到兩百餘萬之間我把這些數字全部都調出來然後我進一步就請你們轉公股行庫說他是不是真的有這樣子的狀況請你們把他公關費到底怎麼花的細目交上來給我結果你們交上來就給我這麼籠統的東西那我進一步要求更細的資訊的時候土銀就不提供\n\n4\n00:01:38,427 --> 00:02:06,008\n土銀不提供,那我沒有辦法那我接下來就請審計部去查因為我不會輕易放棄的結果審計部查出來的確是買公關費去買高檔飯店的餐券然後沒有宴客的資料然後拿公關費去買營養品買嬰兒用品那顯然人家當初的檢舉全部都是有所本這件事情財政部知不知道\n\n5\n00:02:07,577 --> 00:02:35,711\n委員之前的一個檢舉案我們有看到然後也請土銀去做調查是那所以調查的結果是什麼是查無此事是嗎調查的結果基本有一些是有但是有一些並沒有這樣一個情形譬如說我記得這個事情哪一些有哪一些沒有要不我記得是沒有並沒有這個情況因為我現在手上沒有照不可能記得到那麼細的一個事情是沒有關係今天國庫署的有來嗎\n\n6\n00:02:37,589 --> 00:03:05,388\n有事的我們署長有來國庫署知道這件事嗎部長記不清楚這我可以理解因為部長要處理的事情很多這個是國庫署的業務吧因為土銀是百分之百的國營事業所以這個應該是我們政風處收穩的所以是政風是直接處理沒有到國庫署是不是是由政風處他會交給土銀的政風來做調查是\n\n7\n00:03:05,834 --> 00:03:30,381\n那現在調查結果出來了嗎?調查結果我是有看到對那你們調查結果出來以後接下來做了什麼處理?第一個有一些部分其實並不是事實他們調查結果譬如說像尿布這些等等那有一些譬如說他還有檢舉一些譬如說他的父親什麼住院的時候什麼的一些很靈細的一個事情等等那基本上並沒有看出他有相關違規的一個情況\n\n8\n00:03:32,315 --> 00:03:59,316\n那奇怪了怎麼你們政風處查的跟審計部查出來的東西完全不一致是你們的標準比較寬鬆嗎我們有關公關費的使用像土銀它內規都有相關的規定的對啊但問題現在重點就是有遵守規定嗎所以依照財政部的標準現在是有遵守規定喔這個部分經過政風處的調查過了是的對啊但我現在就跟你講啊審計部調查出來的結果就不是這樣啊\n\n9\n00:04:00,407 --> 00:04:27,026\n那審計部調查的結果我們是不是我回去再給他調出來看一下因為我審計部調查的結果我沒有我只有一個要求啦因為這件事情我如果沒有處理的話檢舉的人會覺得我好像跟被檢舉的對象有什麼特殊關係啊是不是不敢問啊不敢處理這件事啊但是我花了相當的時間啊去查這件事情以後發現人家檢舉就有鎖本嘛\n\n10\n00:04:28,038 --> 00:04:52,686\n人家不是亂講的嘛那你今天跟我講說你們的結果覺得沒有什麼問題但我看審計部的報告就不是這個樣子沒有關係我給部長我給你時間回去了解一個禮拜之內給我回覆那同時告訴我說財政部作為公股的管理機關這件事情打算要怎麼辦\n\n11\n00:04:53,926 --> 00:05:09,840\n是要認真追查還是這樣就算了可以嗎可以啊好謝謝可是黃國昌委員那個你查的是新的董事長還是舊的董事長舊的董事長舊的董事長記錄全部都在OKOK\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9351\t35360\t謝謝主席 麻煩有請財政部部長是 財政部部長備詢委員好部長 我接到任何檢舉我都很謹慎我之前接到一個檢舉說我們公股房戶的董作 詐領公款拿公關費 採購餐券給家人用買營養品 買紙尿布\n37794\t66563\t因為這個檢舉的內容太匪夷所思了因為我們工股行庫的董事長待遇應該不錯怎麼會拿公關費去搞這種事情但是任何人跟我提檢舉我就必須要處理所以我開始下去追我發現土銀的公關費每年大概2800萬當然就工股行庫來講你有時候要去處理一些公關的事情我沒什麼意見\n67898\t97185\t那董事長個人花的大概就百餘萬到兩百餘萬之間我把這些數字全部都調出來然後我進一步就請你們轉公股行庫說他是不是真的有這樣子的狀況請你們把他公關費到底怎麼花的細目交上來給我結果你們交上來就給我這麼籠統的東西那我進一步要求更細的資訊的時候土銀就不提供\n98427\t126008\t土銀不提供,那我沒有辦法那我接下來就請審計部去查因為我不會輕易放棄的結果審計部查出來的確是買公關費去買高檔飯店的餐券然後沒有宴客的資料然後拿公關費去買營養品買嬰兒用品那顯然人家當初的檢舉全部都是有所本這件事情財政部知不知道\n127577\t155711\t委員 之前的一個檢舉案我們有看到然後也請土銀去做調查是那所以調查的結果是什麼是查無此事是嗎調查的結果基本有一些是有但是有一些並沒有這樣一個情形譬如說我記得這個事情哪一些有哪一些沒有要不我記得是沒有並沒有這個情況因為我現在手上沒有照不可能記得到那麼細的一個事情是沒有關係今天國庫署的有來嗎\n157589\t185388\t有事的我們署長有來國庫署知道這件事嗎部長記不清楚這我可以理解因為部長要處理的事情很多這個是國庫署的業務吧因為土銀是百分之百的國營事業所以這個應該是我們政風處收穩的所以是政風是直接處理沒有到國庫署是不是是由政風處他會交給土銀的政風來做調查是\n185834\t210381\t那現在調查結果出來了嗎?調查結果我是有看到對那你們調查結果出來以後接下來做了什麼處理?第一個有一些部分其實並不是事實他們調查結果譬如說像尿布這些等等那有一些譬如說他還有檢舉一些譬如說他的父親什麼住院的時候什麼的一些很靈細的一個事情等等那基本上並沒有看出他有相關違規的一個情況\n212315\t239316\t那奇怪了怎麼你們政風處查的跟審計部查出來的東西完全不一致是你們的標準比較寬鬆嗎我們有關公關費的使用像土銀它內規都有相關的規定的對啊 但問題現在重點就是有遵守規定嗎所以依照財政部的標準現在是有遵守規定喔這個部分經過政風處的調查過了 是的對啊 但我現在就跟你講啊審計部調查出來的結果就不是這樣啊\n240407\t267026\t那審計部調查的結果我們是不是我回去再給他調出來看一下因為我審計部調查的結果我沒有我只有一個要求啦因為這件事情我如果沒有處理的話檢舉的人會覺得我好像跟被檢舉的對象有什麼特殊關係啊是不是不敢問啊不敢處理這件事啊但是我花了相當的時間啊去查這件事情以後發現人家檢舉就有鎖本嘛\n268038\t292686\t人家不是亂講的嘛那你今天跟我講說你們的結果覺得沒有什麼問題但我看審計部的報告就不是這個樣子沒有關係我給部長我給你時間回去了解一個禮拜之內給我回覆那同時告訴我說財政部作為公股的管理機關這件事情打算要怎麼辦\n293926\t309840\t是要認真追查還是這樣就算了可以嗎可以啊好 謝謝可是黃國昌委員那個你查的是新的董事長還是舊的董事長舊的董事長舊的董事長記錄全部都在OK OK\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請財政部部長是 財政部部長備詢委員好部長 我接到任何檢舉我都很謹慎我之前接到一個檢舉說我們公股房戶的董作 詐領公款拿公關費 採購餐券給家人用買營養品 買紙尿布\n因為這個檢舉的內容太匪夷所思了因為我們工股行庫的董事長待遇應該不錯怎麼會拿公關費去搞這種事情但是任何人跟我提檢舉我就必須要處理所以我開始下去追我發現土銀的公關費每年大概2800萬當然就工股行庫來講你有時候要去處理一些公關的事情我沒什麼意見\n那董事長個人花的大概就百餘萬到兩百餘萬之間我把這些數字全部都調出來然後我進一步就請你們轉公股行庫說他是不是真的有這樣子的狀況請你們把他公關費到底怎麼花的細目交上來給我結果你們交上來就給我這麼籠統的東西那我進一步要求更細的資訊的時候土銀就不提供\n土銀不提供,那我沒有辦法那我接下來就請審計部去查因為我不會輕易放棄的結果審計部查出來的確是買公關費去買高檔飯店的餐券然後沒有宴客的資料然後拿公關費去買營養品買嬰兒用品那顯然人家當初的檢舉全部都是有所本這件事情財政部知不知道\n委員 之前的一個檢舉案我們有看到然後也請土銀去做調查是那所以調查的結果是什麼是查無此事是嗎調查的結果基本有一些是有但是有一些並沒有這樣一個情形譬如說我記得這個事情哪一些有哪一些沒有要不我記得是沒有並沒有這個情況因為我現在手上沒有照不可能記得到那麼細的一個事情是沒有關係今天國庫署的有來嗎\n有事的我們署長有來國庫署知道這件事嗎部長記不清楚這我可以理解因為部長要處理的事情很多這個是國庫署的業務吧因為土銀是百分之百的國營事業所以這個應該是我們政風處收穩的所以是政風是直接處理沒有到國庫署是不是是由政風處他會交給土銀的政風來做調查是\n那現在調查結果出來了嗎?調查結果我是有看到對那你們調查結果出來以後接下來做了什麼處理?第一個有一些部分其實並不是事實他們調查結果譬如說像尿布這些等等那有一些譬如說他還有檢舉一些譬如說他的父親什麼住院的時候什麼的一些很靈細的一個事情等等那基本上並沒有看出他有相關違規的一個情況\n那奇怪了怎麼你們政風處查的跟審計部查出來的東西完全不一致是你們的標準比較寬鬆嗎我們有關公關費的使用像土銀它內規都有相關的規定的對啊 但問題現在重點就是有遵守規定嗎所以依照財政部的標準現在是有遵守規定喔這個部分經過政風處的調查過了 是的對啊 但我現在就跟你講啊審計部調查出來的結果就不是這樣啊\n那審計部調查的結果我們是不是我回去再給他調出來看一下因為我審計部調查的結果我沒有我只有一個要求啦因為這件事情我如果沒有處理的話檢舉的人會覺得我好像跟被檢舉的對象有什麼特殊關係啊是不是不敢問啊不敢處理這件事啊但是我花了相當的時間啊去查這件事情以後發現人家檢舉就有鎖本嘛\n人家不是亂講的嘛那你今天跟我講說你們的結果覺得沒有什麼問題但我看審計部的報告就不是這個樣子沒有關係我給部長我給你時間回去了解一個禮拜之內給我回覆那同時告訴我說財政部作為公股的管理機關這件事情打算要怎麼辦\n是要認真追查還是這樣就算了可以嗎可以啊好 謝謝可是黃國昌委員那個你查的是新的董事長還是舊的董事長舊的董事長舊的董事長記錄全部都在OK OK\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.351 --> 00:35.360\n謝謝主席麻煩有請財政部部長是財政部部長備詢委員好部長我接到任何檢舉我都很謹慎我之前接到一個檢舉說我們公股房戶的董作詐領公款拿公關費採購餐券給家人用買營養品買紙尿布\n\n00:37.794 --> 01:06.563\n因為這個檢舉的內容太匪夷所思了因為我們工股行庫的董事長待遇應該不錯怎麼會拿公關費去搞這種事情但是任何人跟我提檢舉我就必須要處理所以我開始下去追我發現土銀的公關費每年大概2800萬當然就工股行庫來講你有時候要去處理一些公關的事情我沒什麼意見\n\n01:07.898 --> 01:37.185\n那董事長個人花的大概就百餘萬到兩百餘萬之間我把這些數字全部都調出來然後我進一步就請你們轉公股行庫說他是不是真的有這樣子的狀況請你們把他公關費到底怎麼花的細目交上來給我結果你們交上來就給我這麼籠統的東西那我進一步要求更細的資訊的時候土銀就不提供\n\n01:38.427 --> 02:06.008\n土銀不提供,那我沒有辦法那我接下來就請審計部去查因為我不會輕易放棄的結果審計部查出來的確是買公關費去買高檔飯店的餐券然後沒有宴客的資料然後拿公關費去買營養品買嬰兒用品那顯然人家當初的檢舉全部都是有所本這件事情財政部知不知道\n\n02:07.577 --> 02:35.711\n委員之前的一個檢舉案我們有看到然後也請土銀去做調查是那所以調查的結果是什麼是查無此事是嗎調查的結果基本有一些是有但是有一些並沒有這樣一個情形譬如說我記得這個事情哪一些有哪一些沒有要不我記得是沒有並沒有這個情況因為我現在手上沒有照不可能記得到那麼細的一個事情是沒有關係今天國庫署的有來嗎\n\n02:37.589 --> 03:05.388\n有事的我們署長有來國庫署知道這件事嗎部長記不清楚這我可以理解因為部長要處理的事情很多這個是國庫署的業務吧因為土銀是百分之百的國營事業所以這個應該是我們政風處收穩的所以是政風是直接處理沒有到國庫署是不是是由政風處他會交給土銀的政風來做調查是\n\n03:05.834 --> 03:30.381\n那現在調查結果出來了嗎?調查結果我是有看到對那你們調查結果出來以後接下來做了什麼處理?第一個有一些部分其實並不是事實他們調查結果譬如說像尿布這些等等那有一些譬如說他還有檢舉一些譬如說他的父親什麼住院的時候什麼的一些很靈細的一個事情等等那基本上並沒有看出他有相關違規的一個情況\n\n03:32.315 --> 03:59.316\n那奇怪了怎麼你們政風處查的跟審計部查出來的東西完全不一致是你們的標準比較寬鬆嗎我們有關公關費的使用像土銀它內規都有相關的規定的對啊但問題現在重點就是有遵守規定嗎所以依照財政部的標準現在是有遵守規定喔這個部分經過政風處的調查過了是的對啊但我現在就跟你講啊審計部調查出來的結果就不是這樣啊\n\n04:00.407 --> 04:27.026\n那審計部調查的結果我們是不是我回去再給他調出來看一下因為我審計部調查的結果我沒有我只有一個要求啦因為這件事情我如果沒有處理的話檢舉的人會覺得我好像跟被檢舉的對象有什麼特殊關係啊是不是不敢問啊不敢處理這件事啊但是我花了相當的時間啊去查這件事情以後發現人家檢舉就有鎖本嘛\n\n04:28.038 --> 04:52.686\n人家不是亂講的嘛那你今天跟我講說你們的結果覺得沒有什麼問題但我看審計部的報告就不是這個樣子沒有關係我給部長我給你時間回去了解一個禮拜之內給我回覆那同時告訴我說財政部作為公股的管理機關這件事情打算要怎麼辦\n\n04:53.926 --> 05:09.840\n是要認真追查還是這樣就算了可以嗎可以啊好謝謝可是黃國昌委員那個你查的是新的董事長還是舊的董事長舊的董事長舊的董事長記錄全部都在OKOK\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.351,"end":35.36,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請財政部部長是 財政部部長備詢委員好部長 我接到任何檢舉我都很謹慎我之前接到一個檢舉說我們公股房戶的董作 詐領公款拿公關費 採購餐券給家人用買營養品 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OK"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1086,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時40分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請財政部部長。"],["主席：請財政部部長備詢。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。我接到任何檢舉都很謹慎，之前接到一個檢舉，說我們公股行庫的董座詐領公款，拿公關費採購餐券給家人用、買營養品、買紙尿布。這個檢舉的內容太匪夷所思了，因為我們公股行庫的董事長待遇應該不錯，怎麼會拿公關費去搞這種事情？但是任何人跟我提檢舉，我就必須要處理，所以我開始下去追了。我發現土銀的公關費每年大概2,800萬，當然就公股行庫來講，有時候要去處理一些公關的事情，我沒什麼意見，至於董事長個人花的，大概就百餘萬到兩百餘萬之間，我把這些數字全部都調出來。然後我進一步就請你們轉公股行庫，問是不是真的有這樣子的狀況，請你們把他的公關費到底怎麼花的細目交上來給我，結果你們交上來就給我這麼籠統的東西。當我進一步要求更細的資訊的時候，土銀就不提供，土銀不提供，那我沒有辦法，我接下來就請審計部去查，因為我不會輕易放棄的。結果審計部查出來的確是用公關費去買高檔飯店的餐券，可是沒有宴客的資料，也拿公關費去買營養品、嬰兒用品，顯然人家當初的檢舉全部都是有所本的，這件事情財政部知不知道？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，之前的檢舉案我們有看到，然後也請土銀去做調查。"],["黃委員國昌：所以調查的結果是什麼？是查無此事，是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：調查的結果，基本有一些是有，但是有一些並沒有這樣的情形，譬如說我記得這個事情……"],["黃委員國昌：哪一些有？哪一些沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：我記得沒有尿布，並沒有這個情況，因為我現在手上沒有資料，我不可能記得那麼細的事情。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，今天國庫署有來嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：有，署長有來。"],["黃委員國昌：國庫署知道這件事嗎？部長記不清楚，這我可以理解，因為部長要處理的事情很多，這個是國庫署的業務吧？"],["陳署長柏誠：土銀是百分之百的國營事業，所以這個應該由我們政風處收文。"],["黃委員國昌：所以是政風室直接處理，沒有到國庫署是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：是由政風處，他們會交給土銀的政風來做調查。"],["黃委員國昌：那現在調查結果出來了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：調查結果我有看到。"],["黃委員國昌：對，那你們調查結果出來以後，接下來做了什麼處理？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一，他們調查結果有一些部分其實並不是事實，譬如說像買尿布這些等等，其他有一些，譬如他有被檢舉他的父親住院的時候一些很零細的事情等等。基本上，並沒有看出他有相關違規的情況。"],["黃委員國昌：那奇怪了，怎麼你們政風處查的跟審計部查出來的東西完全不一致？是你們的標準比較寬鬆嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：有關公關費的使用，我想土銀內規都有相關的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！但問題的重點就是有遵守規定嗎？所以依照財政部的標準，現在是有遵守規定喔？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分經過政風處調查過了，是的。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！但我現在就跟你講啊，審計部調查出來的結果就不是這樣啊。"],["莊部長翠雲：審計部調查的結果，是不是我回去再調出來看一下，因為我沒有審計部的調查結果。"],["黃委員國昌：我只有一個要求，因為我如果沒有處理這件事情的話，檢舉人會覺得我好像跟被檢舉的對象有什麼特殊關係，認為是不是我不敢問、不敢處理這件事，但是我花了相當的時間去查這件事情，我發現人家檢舉就有所本嘛，人家不是亂講的嘛，那你今天跟我講說你們看調查結果覺得沒有什麼問題，但我看審計部的報告就不是這個樣子。沒有關係，我給部長時間回去瞭解，一個禮拜之內給我回復。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["黃委員國昌：同時告訴我，財政部作為公股的管理機關，這件事情打算要怎麼辦？是要認真追查還是這樣就算了？可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：可以啊！"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：黃國昌委員，你查的是新的董事長還是舊的董事長？"],["黃委員國昌：舊的董事長，紀錄全部都在，我是不要點名，傷感情啦！把事情查清楚比較重要。"],["主席：OK，謝謝黃國昌委員。","接著請林楚茵委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","林思銘","陳玉珍","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","黃國昌","林楚茵","徐富癸","陳冠廷","牛煦庭","黃捷","邱志偉"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、農業部及公平交易委員會就「防範中國大陸產品低價傾銷及透\n過台灣洗產地問題之因應策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00003"}}}