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00:01:00,849\n部長好部長那個中國啤酒傾銷衝擊到台啤的員工的生計台啤公會來跟我澄清從竹南烏日散化的員工數從減少了三成到四成所以它的產業的衝擊傾銷造成市場被侵佔的情況底下是非常嚴重的現在我們在談席產地也有可能會被席產地我們可能看起來我們好像是加害者其實某個程度我們也是中國的被害者\n\n3\n00:01:01,890 --> 00:01:16,469\n所以這個問題你們要去面對這個問題的過程當中應該從兩頭思考我們不要成為加害者我們也不要成為被害者中國啤酒就是這種狀況啊你們現在的反省銷調查現在什麼時候做出認定產業認定的部分經濟部什麼時候\n\n4\n00:01:18,663 --> 00:01:40,615\n不知道6月底本來初步調查是4月20號要做出認定喔已經調查了已經在調查了那延長到什麼時候才要完成沒有延長就按照我們規定的一個進程沒有延長啊經濟部在認定我們請經濟部認定要快一點啦好不好\n\n5\n00:01:41,315 --> 00:02:06,622\n是我們在進行損害市長你可能不清楚但是回去多了解一下再加快已經明明對台灣的產業已經造成這麼大的傷害這很明顯中國想要透過這種傾銷的手法把台灣的消費市場腹地化把台灣的消費市場內地化不只是消費市場而已還有製造市場的部分你去看江市長你曉不曉得啊越南的部分有沒有在做不鏽鋼線啊\n\n6\n00:02:09,073 --> 00:02:31,410\n美國商務部的DOC調查過越南的不鏽鋼線其實使用是南韓進口的原料生產就我去了解過業者越南也沒有做不鏽鋼線的一個廠商那為什麼有高達一萬五千多噸從2023年到了這個2024年一萬八千多噸到現在三一季已經佔了15%都從越南進來的喔\n\n7\n00:02:36,684 --> 00:03:01,228\n都從雲南進來囉所以台灣的產業有多大的衝擊而且還有一個那個部長這不是經濟部的事情而已經濟部我看一副狀況外還在看那些數字你看我們就是因為這樣子的情況底下我們是被害者進口產地的時候彭署長在後面有沒有加上一個進口的產地證明\n\n8\n00:03:05,089 --> 00:03:32,927\n報告委員那個進口產地要不要付產證那個別的貨物都有不同的規定對就我知道有些產品就類似這不鏽鋼線的部分是不用的是不用的所以說越南進來你就是以為越南做不是越南根本沒有那個產你沒有個產品溯源的機制嘛對啊結果搞了半天它越南是被洗產地的洗了產地越南成為加害者台灣的業者變受害者\n\n9\n00:03:34,229 --> 00:03:56,426\n主長你要去了解你要透過這種加入一個進口審查產地的證明才能夠避免台灣的產業被加害者同意嗎同意要去加強還有現在這種狀況嚴重到什麼程度呢這種就等於製造市場的被內地化\n\n10\n00:03:57,686 --> 00:04:21,750\n這樣的情況底下齁我跟你講情況要請那個部長還有經濟部跟財政部組成一個調查小組你們看起來我們被我們起產地好像我們是加害者其實我們被害者的項目我們才一併的要去調查啊部長有沒有同意不是這個不修剛線而已啊其他的處長剛剛有講很多都是不用付的你根本不清楚\n\n11\n00:04:23,356 --> 00:04:33,624\n不清楚就在那經濟部你要保護產業對不對台灣的產業對不對你要保護員工的就業就業機會對不對這樣的情況底下你們要不要組一個調查清楚來調查清楚兩位\n\n12\n00:04:35,752 --> 00:04:57,340\n我想謝謝委員的提示這個部分我們會和經濟部一起來把這個事情來做一個好的處理避免台灣的製造市場也被內地化消費市場被內地化製造市場被內地化還有一種是消費市場跟製造市場同時都會被內地化那個莊部長我再讓你看一個數字最近大家有在討論這個電商的問題\n\n13\n00:04:59,481 --> 00:05:26,104\n這中國電商也有傾銷的問題這傾銷的數字我讓你看一下中國從2022年到2024年因為他用低價傾銷什麼方式就補助運費嘛99塊以下的人民幣不用運費的情況底下這種變相的低價傾銷的方式以至於讓他的整個市佔率高達64.4%而且你如果再加上香港再加上澳門\n\n14\n00:05:27,830 --> 00:05:50,597\n整個進口的這一個電商的部分港中澳中港澳加起來超過八成八將近九成這也是很清楚的把台灣的消費市場內地化的一個結果嘛這會影響到什麼影響到消費市場影響到製造市場啊這非常嚴重啊\n\n15\n00:05:52,318 --> 00:06:05,124\n所以你去看類似這一種變相的這種補貼的方式達到低價傾銷的一個目的的這種做法我要請問一下你有沒有類似反傾銷制裁方式有沒有\n\n16\n00:06:07,247 --> 00:06:26,733\n部分因為都是小的包裹不同的消費者這個部分然後他的貨品也很分散大部分什麼生活上的一些小東西或者是小的家電之類的這個部分那當然這個部分所謂的第一個是小包裹的量快速成長而且透過我們的海運快遞進來你現在在描述現狀我在問你如何解決問題你一直在描述現狀\n\n17\n00:06:31,255 --> 00:06:58,031\n現階段來說我們的免稅額度是兩千元這個部分有沒有可能差別待遇化其他的國家沒有這種低價請銷的情況有低價請銷的中國就把它降為一千或者其他國家有低價請銷我們要把它降為一千有沒有可能是委員這個方向我們也會納入一起考慮這個部分本來就是目前我們在你們要納入計畫喔這要差別待遇因為要用這種方式遏止這種不當的請銷嘛對不對\n\n18\n00:07:00,733 --> 00:07:06,336\n對國內的產業也會受到傷害我同意委員的觀點你知道淘寶在幾年前一直想要進入台灣的市場裡頭只有三次要進入投審會都沒有通過就他轉個彎用什麼方式他用下一個廣告公司\n\n19\n00:07:25,526 --> 00:07:40,250\n用廣告公司來達到營運的事實啊就是廣告公司營運的事實的情況底下你知道嗎這種廣告公司進來這又是100%由阿里巴巴集團所投資設立的叫香港這個淘寶國際產業結果呢他在這邊一樣達到營運的事實啊\n\n20\n00:07:46,360 --> 00:08:03,087\n那你完全拿他沒轍嗎結果你知道嗎這會變成什麼早期有一段時間我們的這個電商的各自外流就達成詐騙犯案的結果嘛所以這裡頭有牽扯到各自的管理還有牽扯到什麼因為違禁商品上架的問題你完全沒有辦法管理他\n\n21\n00:08:04,950 --> 00:08:20,973\n市長這問題要怎麼處理第一個你要去思考這個各自的問題要去跟速發部來做個協調總共有高達多少我們2024年從中國進口的小額免稅的商品高達3337萬個比我們人口數還多1000萬如果以六次滿額來計算的話你至少有556萬人來使用淘寶\n\n22\n00:08:32,045 --> 00:08:55,094\n就確診到各自的人數是如此之多喔市長這非常嚴重喔你要怎麼處理我們會跟數位部來做不是數發部處理而已你不是跟數發部講而已還要跟他講你要如何落地監管的問題嘛他等於繞個彎不經過你的投審思嘛對不對這種情況底下是不是要考慮廢止淘寶國際產業的這個投資許可\n\n23\n00:08:58,274 --> 00:09:17,939\n我們核准淘寶因為它是電子資訊服務業就是如同剛才委員所說的它去年雙11的時候有做了相關的廣告其實我們經濟部已經對於這家公司進行了相關的裁罰相關的裁罰不夠啦對不對它的盈利這麼大你的行政裁罰能夠裁罰多少\n\n24\n00:09:19,178 --> 00:09:42,488\n我們而且呢除了這個以外我們也要求他要改正如果沒有改正呢如果連續的情況底下他明明就是這樣營業的方式啊他是繞個彎啊你必要的時候應該要廢止許可才對啦否則的話你就落地你這個投審會的功能就不在啦就等被架空啊不是嗎必要的時候我們可以要求他撤資好必要的時候要求撤資我就等你這句話好最後一個部分齁那個\n\n25\n00:09:44,332 --> 00:10:11,266\n你知道那個部長上一次有關於這個Anytech的部分新加坡的這個資金很難辨識他進來以後變化股權香港更難辨識這種香港更難辨識的情況底下有一些進來之後的這個部分的資金的資本屬性的轉化的過程當中有沒有可能一個至親的機制那個次長這個部分我要請你跟那個陸委會溝通一下因為今天陸委會沒有來\n\n26\n00:10:12,847 --> 00:10:26,986\n也就是中資的認定要怎麼認定以前港澳資基本上我們把它視為外資還把它視為第三地喔對不對可是現在隨著港澳內地化的情況底下中國的屬性越來越高這資本屬性應該是不同\n\n27\n00:10:28,027 --> 00:10:43,661\n這種不同的情況底下他隱含的就是中資的色彩未來越高嘛那這個部分你有沒有可能以前以港資澳資澳資進來的這些人你要求他類似像陸配一樣自清一下說我呢基本上沒有受到中資的實質控制權有沒有可能那個次長\n\n28\n00:10:44,622 --> 00:11:11,071\n有的我們對於這些業者其實都要他們來做切結我們也很擔心是假外資真中資的情形所以這個部分現在有進行切結然後未來在股權變動的時候我們也會要求這些外資如果有任何股權的變動從現在開始要求起我們已經開始了最根本的方式你們應該跟陸委會講清楚港澳條例該改要改\n\n29\n00:11:12,861 --> 00:11:18,894\n港澳之間的這個資本屬性已經中資化的情況底下我們要把它視為中資來看待你同不同意\n\n30\n00:11:19,847 --> 00:11:42,637\n是我們再跟陸委會來進行相關討論好好最後我再請那個部長說一下因為天然災害的結果有很多青龍的權益也受損沒有收入天然災害的結果然後有一些資金的一些貸款的部分請部長好好思考一下該優惠應該有優惠該展期應該讓它展期請那個部長回去思考一下好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝郭委員謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4591\t24249\t主席 我要先講一下 我每次在賴委員後面都等了很久賴世保 你不能稍微約束一下是 好再提醒一下賴世保委員好 謝謝主席有請莊部長還有彭署長以及江次長好 那個我們那個莊部長 江次長委員好\n31089\t60849\t部長好 部長那個中國啤酒傾銷衝擊到台啤的員工的生計台啤公會來跟我澄清從竹南烏日散化的員工數從減少了三成到四成所以它的產業的衝擊傾銷造成市場被侵佔的情況底下是非常嚴重的現在我們在談席產地也有可能會被席產地我們可能看起來我們好像是加害者其實某個程度我們也是中國的被害者\n61890\t76469\t所以這個問題你們要去面對這個問題的過程當中應該從兩頭思考我們不要成為加害者我們也不要成為被害者中國啤酒就是這種狀況啊你們現在的反省銷調查現在什麼時候做出認定產業認定的部分經濟部什麼時候\n78663\t100615\t不知道6月底本來初步調查是4月20號要做出認定喔已經調查了已經在調查了那延長到什麼時候才要完成沒有延長就按照我們規定的一個進程沒有延長啊經濟部在認定我們請經濟部認定要快一點啦好不好\n101315\t126622\t是我們在進行損害市長你可能不清楚但是回去多了解一下再加快已經明明對台灣的產業已經造成這麼大的傷害這很明顯中國想要透過這種傾銷的手法把台灣的消費市場腹地化把台灣的消費市場內地化不只是消費市場而已還有製造市場的部分你去看江市長你曉不曉得啊越南的部分有沒有在做不鏽鋼線啊\n129073\t151410\t美國商務部的DOC調查過 越南的不鏽鋼線其實使用是南韓進口的原料生產就我去了解過業者越南也沒有做不鏽鋼線的一個廠商那為什麼有高達一萬五千多噸從2023年到了這個2024年一萬八千多噸到現在三一季已經佔了15%都從越南進來的喔\n156684\t181228\t都從雲南進來囉所以台灣的產業有多大的衝擊而且還有一個那個部長這不是經濟部的事情而已經濟部我看一副狀況外還在看那些數字你看我們就是因為這樣子的情況底下我們是被害者進口產地的時候彭署長在後面有沒有加上一個進口的產地證明\n185089\t212927\t報告委員那個進口產地要不要付產證那個別的貨物都有不同的規定對 就我知道有些產品就類似這不鏽鋼線的部分是不用的是不用的所以說越南進來你就是以為越南做 不是越南根本沒有那個產你沒有個產品溯源的機制嘛對啊結果搞了半天它越南是被洗產地的洗了產地越南成為加害者台灣的業者變受害者\n214229\t236426\t主長你要去了解你要透過這種加入一個進口審查產地的證明才能夠避免台灣的產業被加害者同意嗎同意要去加強還有現在這種狀況嚴重到什麼程度呢這種就等於製造市場的被內地化\n237686\t261750\t這樣的情況底下齁 我跟你講情況要請那個部長還有經濟部跟財政部組成一個調查小組你們看起來我們被我們起產地好像我們是加害者其實我們被害者的項目我們才一併的要去調查啊部長有沒有同意不是這個不修剛線而已啊其他的處長剛剛有講很多都是不用付的你根本不清楚\n263356\t273624\t不清楚就在那經濟部你要保護產業對不對台灣的產業對不對你要保護員工的就業就業機會對不對這樣的情況底下你們要不要組一個調查清楚來調查清楚兩位\n275752\t297340\t我想謝謝委員的提示這個部分我們會和經濟部一起來把這個事情來做一個好的處理避免台灣的製造市場也被內地化消費市場被內地化製造市場被內地化還有一種是消費市場跟製造市場同時都會被內地化那個莊部長我再讓你看一個數字最近大家有在討論這個電商的問題\n299481\t326104\t這中國電商也有傾銷的問題這傾銷的數字我讓你看一下中國從2022年到2024年因為他用低價傾銷什麼方式就補助運費嘛99塊以下的人民幣不用運費的情況底下這種變相的低價傾銷的方式以至於讓他的整個市佔率高達64.4%而且你如果再加上香港再加上澳門\n327830\t350597\t整個進口的這一個電商的部分港中澳中港澳加起來超過八成八 將近九成這也是很清楚的把台灣的消費市場內地化的一個結果嘛這會影響到什麼 影響到消費市場 影響到製造市場啊這非常嚴重啊\n352318\t365124\t所以你去看類似這一種變相的這種補貼的方式達到低價傾銷的一個目的的這種做法我要請問一下你有沒有類似反傾銷制裁方式 有沒有\n367247\t386733\t部分因為都是小的包裹不同的消費者這個部分然後他的貨品也很分散大部分什麼生活上的一些小東西或者是小的家電之類的這個部分那當然這個部分所謂的第一個是小包裹的量快速成長而且透過我們的海運快遞進來你現在在描述現狀我在問你如何解決問題你一直在描述現狀\n391255\t418031\t現階段來說我們的免稅額度是兩千元這個部分有沒有可能差別待遇化其他的國家沒有這種低價請銷的情況有低價請銷的中國就把它降為一千或者其他國家有低價請銷我們要把它降為一千有沒有可能是委員這個方向我們也會納入一起考慮這個部分本來就是目前我們在你們要納入計畫喔這要差別待遇因為要用這種方式遏止這種不當的請銷嘛對不對\n420733\t426336\t對國內的產業也會受到傷害我同意委員的觀點你知道淘寶在幾年前一直想要進入台灣的市場裡頭只有三次要進入投審會都沒有通過就他轉個彎用什麼方式他用下一個廣告公司\n445526\t460250\t用廣告公司來達到營運的事實啊就是廣告公司營運的事實的情況底下你知道嗎這種廣告公司進來這又是100%由阿里巴巴集團所投資設立的叫香港這個淘寶國際產業結果呢他在這邊一樣達到營運的事實啊\n466360\t483087\t那你完全拿他沒轍嗎結果你知道嗎這會變成什麼早期有一段時間我們的這個電商的各自外流就達成詐騙犯案的結果嘛所以這裡頭有牽扯到各自的管理還有牽扯到什麼因為違禁商品上架的問題你完全沒有辦法管理他\n484950\t500973\t市長 這問題要怎麼處理第一個 你要去思考這個各自的問題要去跟速發部來做個協調總共有高達多少我們2024年從中國進口的小額免稅的商品高達3337萬個比我們人口數還多1000萬如果以六次滿額來計算的話你至少有556萬人來使用淘寶\n512045\t535094\t就確診到各自的人數是如此之多喔市長這非常嚴重喔你要怎麼處理我們會跟數位部來做不是數發部處理而已你不是跟數發部講而已還要跟他講你要如何落地監管的問題嘛他等於繞個彎不經過你的投審思嘛對不對這種情況底下是不是要考慮廢止淘寶國際產業的這個投資許可\n538274\t557939\t我們核准淘寶因為它是電子資訊服務業就是如同剛才委員所說的它去年雙11的時候有做了相關的廣告其實我們經濟部已經對於這家公司進行了相關的裁罰相關的裁罰不夠啦對不對它的盈利這麼大你的行政裁罰能夠裁罰多少\n559178\t582488\t我們而且呢除了這個以外我們也要求他要改正如果沒有改正呢如果連續的情況底下他明明就是這樣營業的方式啊他是繞個彎啊你必要的時候應該要廢止許可才對啦否則的話你就落地你這個投審會的功能就不在啦就等被架空啊不是嗎必要的時候我們可以要求他撤資好必要的時候要求撤資我就等你這句話好最後一個部分齁那個\n584332\t611266\t你知道那個部長上一次有關於這個Anytech的部分新加坡的這個資金很難辨識他進來以後變化股權香港更難辨識這種香港更難辨識的情況底下有一些進來之後的這個部分的資金的資本屬性的轉化的過程當中有沒有可能一個至親的機制那個次長這個部分我要請你跟那個陸委會溝通一下因為今天陸委會沒有來\n612847\t626986\t也就是中資的認定要怎麼認定以前港澳資基本上我們把它視為外資還把它視為第三地喔對不對可是現在隨著港澳內地化的情況底下中國的屬性越來越高這資本屬性應該是不同\n628027\t643661\t這種不同的情況底下他隱含的就是中資的色彩未來越高嘛那這個部分你有沒有可能以前以港資澳資澳資進來的這些人你要求他類似像陸配一樣自清一下說我呢基本上沒有受到中資的實質控制權有沒有可能那個次長\n644622\t671071\t有的我們對於這些業者其實都要他們來做切結我們也很擔心是假外資真中資的情形所以這個部分現在有進行切結然後未來在股權變動的時候我們也會要求這些外資如果有任何股權的變動從現在開始要求起我們已經開始了最根本的方式你們應該跟陸委會講清楚港澳條例該改要改\n672861\t678894\t港澳之間的這個資本屬性已經中資化的情況底下我們要把它視為中資來看待你同不同意\n679847\t702637\t是 我們再跟陸委會來進行相關討論好好 最後我再請那個部長說一下因為天然災害的結果有很多青龍的權益也受損 沒有收入天然災害的結果然後有一些資金的一些貸款的部分請部長好好思考一下該優惠應該有優惠 該展期應該讓它展期請那個部長回去思考一下好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝郭委員 謝謝部長\n","txt":"主席 我要先講一下 我每次在賴委員後面都等了很久賴世保 你不能稍微約束一下是 好再提醒一下賴世保委員好 謝謝主席有請莊部長還有彭署長以及江次長好 那個我們那個莊部長 江次長委員好\n部長好 部長那個中國啤酒傾銷衝擊到台啤的員工的生計台啤公會來跟我澄清從竹南烏日散化的員工數從減少了三成到四成所以它的產業的衝擊傾銷造成市場被侵佔的情況底下是非常嚴重的現在我們在談席產地也有可能會被席產地我們可能看起來我們好像是加害者其實某個程度我們也是中國的被害者\n所以這個問題你們要去面對這個問題的過程當中應該從兩頭思考我們不要成為加害者我們也不要成為被害者中國啤酒就是這種狀況啊你們現在的反省銷調查現在什麼時候做出認定產業認定的部分經濟部什麼時候\n不知道6月底本來初步調查是4月20號要做出認定喔已經調查了已經在調查了那延長到什麼時候才要完成沒有延長就按照我們規定的一個進程沒有延長啊經濟部在認定我們請經濟部認定要快一點啦好不好\n是我們在進行損害市長你可能不清楚但是回去多了解一下再加快已經明明對台灣的產業已經造成這麼大的傷害這很明顯中國想要透過這種傾銷的手法把台灣的消費市場腹地化把台灣的消費市場內地化不只是消費市場而已還有製造市場的部分你去看江市長你曉不曉得啊越南的部分有沒有在做不鏽鋼線啊\n美國商務部的DOC調查過 越南的不鏽鋼線其實使用是南韓進口的原料生產就我去了解過業者越南也沒有做不鏽鋼線的一個廠商那為什麼有高達一萬五千多噸從2023年到了這個2024年一萬八千多噸到現在三一季已經佔了15%都從越南進來的喔\n都從雲南進來囉所以台灣的產業有多大的衝擊而且還有一個那個部長這不是經濟部的事情而已經濟部我看一副狀況外還在看那些數字你看我們就是因為這樣子的情況底下我們是被害者進口產地的時候彭署長在後面有沒有加上一個進口的產地證明\n報告委員那個進口產地要不要付產證那個別的貨物都有不同的規定對 就我知道有些產品就類似這不鏽鋼線的部分是不用的是不用的所以說越南進來你就是以為越南做 不是越南根本沒有那個產你沒有個產品溯源的機制嘛對啊結果搞了半天它越南是被洗產地的洗了產地越南成為加害者台灣的業者變受害者\n主長你要去了解你要透過這種加入一個進口審查產地的證明才能夠避免台灣的產業被加害者同意嗎同意要去加強還有現在這種狀況嚴重到什麼程度呢這種就等於製造市場的被內地化\n這樣的情況底下齁 我跟你講情況要請那個部長還有經濟部跟財政部組成一個調查小組你們看起來我們被我們起產地好像我們是加害者其實我們被害者的項目我們才一併的要去調查啊部長有沒有同意不是這個不修剛線而已啊其他的處長剛剛有講很多都是不用付的你根本不清楚\n不清楚就在那經濟部你要保護產業對不對台灣的產業對不對你要保護員工的就業就業機會對不對這樣的情況底下你們要不要組一個調查清楚來調查清楚兩位\n我想謝謝委員的提示這個部分我們會和經濟部一起來把這個事情來做一個好的處理避免台灣的製造市場也被內地化消費市場被內地化製造市場被內地化還有一種是消費市場跟製造市場同時都會被內地化那個莊部長我再讓你看一個數字最近大家有在討論這個電商的問題\n這中國電商也有傾銷的問題這傾銷的數字我讓你看一下中國從2022年到2024年因為他用低價傾銷什麼方式就補助運費嘛99塊以下的人民幣不用運費的情況底下這種變相的低價傾銷的方式以至於讓他的整個市佔率高達64.4%而且你如果再加上香港再加上澳門\n整個進口的這一個電商的部分港中澳中港澳加起來超過八成八 將近九成這也是很清楚的把台灣的消費市場內地化的一個結果嘛這會影響到什麼 影響到消費市場 影響到製造市場啊這非常嚴重啊\n所以你去看類似這一種變相的這種補貼的方式達到低價傾銷的一個目的的這種做法我要請問一下你有沒有類似反傾銷制裁方式 有沒有\n部分因為都是小的包裹不同的消費者這個部分然後他的貨品也很分散大部分什麼生活上的一些小東西或者是小的家電之類的這個部分那當然這個部分所謂的第一個是小包裹的量快速成長而且透過我們的海運快遞進來你現在在描述現狀我在問你如何解決問題你一直在描述現狀\n現階段來說我們的免稅額度是兩千元這個部分有沒有可能差別待遇化其他的國家沒有這種低價請銷的情況有低價請銷的中國就把它降為一千或者其他國家有低價請銷我們要把它降為一千有沒有可能是委員這個方向我們也會納入一起考慮這個部分本來就是目前我們在你們要納入計畫喔這要差別待遇因為要用這種方式遏止這種不當的請銷嘛對不對\n對國內的產業也會受到傷害我同意委員的觀點你知道淘寶在幾年前一直想要進入台灣的市場裡頭只有三次要進入投審會都沒有通過就他轉個彎用什麼方式他用下一個廣告公司\n用廣告公司來達到營運的事實啊就是廣告公司營運的事實的情況底下你知道嗎這種廣告公司進來這又是100%由阿里巴巴集團所投資設立的叫香港這個淘寶國際產業結果呢他在這邊一樣達到營運的事實啊\n那你完全拿他沒轍嗎結果你知道嗎這會變成什麼早期有一段時間我們的這個電商的各自外流就達成詐騙犯案的結果嘛所以這裡頭有牽扯到各自的管理還有牽扯到什麼因為違禁商品上架的問題你完全沒有辦法管理他\n市長 這問題要怎麼處理第一個 你要去思考這個各自的問題要去跟速發部來做個協調總共有高達多少我們2024年從中國進口的小額免稅的商品高達3337萬個比我們人口數還多1000萬如果以六次滿額來計算的話你至少有556萬人來使用淘寶\n就確診到各自的人數是如此之多喔市長這非常嚴重喔你要怎麼處理我們會跟數位部來做不是數發部處理而已你不是跟數發部講而已還要跟他講你要如何落地監管的問題嘛他等於繞個彎不經過你的投審思嘛對不對這種情況底下是不是要考慮廢止淘寶國際產業的這個投資許可\n我們核准淘寶因為它是電子資訊服務業就是如同剛才委員所說的它去年雙11的時候有做了相關的廣告其實我們經濟部已經對於這家公司進行了相關的裁罰相關的裁罰不夠啦對不對它的盈利這麼大你的行政裁罰能夠裁罰多少\n我們而且呢除了這個以外我們也要求他要改正如果沒有改正呢如果連續的情況底下他明明就是這樣營業的方式啊他是繞個彎啊你必要的時候應該要廢止許可才對啦否則的話你就落地你這個投審會的功能就不在啦就等被架空啊不是嗎必要的時候我們可以要求他撤資好必要的時候要求撤資我就等你這句話好最後一個部分齁那個\n你知道那個部長上一次有關於這個Anytech的部分新加坡的這個資金很難辨識他進來以後變化股權香港更難辨識這種香港更難辨識的情況底下有一些進來之後的這個部分的資金的資本屬性的轉化的過程當中有沒有可能一個至親的機制那個次長這個部分我要請你跟那個陸委會溝通一下因為今天陸委會沒有來\n也就是中資的認定要怎麼認定以前港澳資基本上我們把它視為外資還把它視為第三地喔對不對可是現在隨著港澳內地化的情況底下中國的屬性越來越高這資本屬性應該是不同\n這種不同的情況底下他隱含的就是中資的色彩未來越高嘛那這個部分你有沒有可能以前以港資澳資澳資進來的這些人你要求他類似像陸配一樣自清一下說我呢基本上沒有受到中資的實質控制權有沒有可能那個次長\n有的我們對於這些業者其實都要他們來做切結我們也很擔心是假外資真中資的情形所以這個部分現在有進行切結然後未來在股權變動的時候我們也會要求這些外資如果有任何股權的變動從現在開始要求起我們已經開始了最根本的方式你們應該跟陸委會講清楚港澳條例該改要改\n港澳之間的這個資本屬性已經中資化的情況底下我們要把它視為中資來看待你同不同意\n是 我們再跟陸委會來進行相關討論好好 最後我再請那個部長說一下因為天然災害的結果有很多青龍的權益也受損 沒有收入天然災害的結果然後有一些資金的一些貸款的部分請部長好好思考一下該優惠應該有優惠 該展期應該讓它展期請那個部長回去思考一下好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝郭委員 謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.591 --> 00:24.249\n主席我要先講一下我每次在賴委員後面都等了很久賴世保你不能稍微約束一下是好再提醒一下賴世保委員好謝謝主席有請莊部長還有彭署長以及江次長好那個我們那個莊部長江次長委員好\n\n00:31.089 --> 01:00.849\n部長好部長那個中國啤酒傾銷衝擊到台啤的員工的生計台啤公會來跟我澄清從竹南烏日散化的員工數從減少了三成到四成所以它的產業的衝擊傾銷造成市場被侵佔的情況底下是非常嚴重的現在我們在談席產地也有可能會被席產地我們可能看起來我們好像是加害者其實某個程度我們也是中國的被害者\n\n01:01.890 --> 01:16.469\n所以這個問題你們要去面對這個問題的過程當中應該從兩頭思考我們不要成為加害者我們也不要成為被害者中國啤酒就是這種狀況啊你們現在的反省銷調查現在什麼時候做出認定產業認定的部分經濟部什麼時候\n\n01:18.663 --> 01:40.615\n不知道6月底本來初步調查是4月20號要做出認定喔已經調查了已經在調查了那延長到什麼時候才要完成沒有延長就按照我們規定的一個進程沒有延長啊經濟部在認定我們請經濟部認定要快一點啦好不好\n\n01:41.315 --> 02:06.622\n是我們在進行損害市長你可能不清楚但是回去多了解一下再加快已經明明對台灣的產業已經造成這麼大的傷害這很明顯中國想要透過這種傾銷的手法把台灣的消費市場腹地化把台灣的消費市場內地化不只是消費市場而已還有製造市場的部分你去看江市長你曉不曉得啊越南的部分有沒有在做不鏽鋼線啊\n\n02:09.073 --> 02:31.410\n美國商務部的DOC調查過越南的不鏽鋼線其實使用是南韓進口的原料生產就我去了解過業者越南也沒有做不鏽鋼線的一個廠商那為什麼有高達一萬五千多噸從2023年到了這個2024年一萬八千多噸到現在三一季已經佔了15%都從越南進來的喔\n\n02:36.684 --> 03:01.228\n都從雲南進來囉所以台灣的產業有多大的衝擊而且還有一個那個部長這不是經濟部的事情而已經濟部我看一副狀況外還在看那些數字你看我們就是因為這樣子的情況底下我們是被害者進口產地的時候彭署長在後面有沒有加上一個進口的產地證明\n\n03:05.089 --> 03:32.927\n報告委員那個進口產地要不要付產證那個別的貨物都有不同的規定對就我知道有些產品就類似這不鏽鋼線的部分是不用的是不用的所以說越南進來你就是以為越南做不是越南根本沒有那個產你沒有個產品溯源的機制嘛對啊結果搞了半天它越南是被洗產地的洗了產地越南成為加害者台灣的業者變受害者\n\n03:34.229 --> 03:56.426\n主長你要去了解你要透過這種加入一個進口審查產地的證明才能夠避免台灣的產業被加害者同意嗎同意要去加強還有現在這種狀況嚴重到什麼程度呢這種就等於製造市場的被內地化\n\n03:57.686 --> 04:21.750\n這樣的情況底下齁我跟你講情況要請那個部長還有經濟部跟財政部組成一個調查小組你們看起來我們被我們起產地好像我們是加害者其實我們被害者的項目我們才一併的要去調查啊部長有沒有同意不是這個不修剛線而已啊其他的處長剛剛有講很多都是不用付的你根本不清楚\n\n04:23.356 --> 04:33.624\n不清楚就在那經濟部你要保護產業對不對台灣的產業對不對你要保護員工的就業就業機會對不對這樣的情況底下你們要不要組一個調查清楚來調查清楚兩位\n\n04:35.752 --> 04:57.340\n我想謝謝委員的提示這個部分我們會和經濟部一起來把這個事情來做一個好的處理避免台灣的製造市場也被內地化消費市場被內地化製造市場被內地化還有一種是消費市場跟製造市場同時都會被內地化那個莊部長我再讓你看一個數字最近大家有在討論這個電商的問題\n\n04:59.481 --> 05:26.104\n這中國電商也有傾銷的問題這傾銷的數字我讓你看一下中國從2022年到2024年因為他用低價傾銷什麼方式就補助運費嘛99塊以下的人民幣不用運費的情況底下這種變相的低價傾銷的方式以至於讓他的整個市佔率高達64.4%而且你如果再加上香港再加上澳門\n\n05:27.830 --> 05:50.597\n整個進口的這一個電商的部分港中澳中港澳加起來超過八成八將近九成這也是很清楚的把台灣的消費市場內地化的一個結果嘛這會影響到什麼影響到消費市場影響到製造市場啊這非常嚴重啊\n\n05:52.318 --> 06:05.124\n所以你去看類似這一種變相的這種補貼的方式達到低價傾銷的一個目的的這種做法我要請問一下你有沒有類似反傾銷制裁方式有沒有\n\n06:07.247 --> 06:26.733\n部分因為都是小的包裹不同的消費者這個部分然後他的貨品也很分散大部分什麼生活上的一些小東西或者是小的家電之類的這個部分那當然這個部分所謂的第一個是小包裹的量快速成長而且透過我們的海運快遞進來你現在在描述現狀我在問你如何解決問題你一直在描述現狀\n\n06:31.255 --> 06:58.031\n現階段來說我們的免稅額度是兩千元這個部分有沒有可能差別待遇化其他的國家沒有這種低價請銷的情況有低價請銷的中國就把它降為一千或者其他國家有低價請銷我們要把它降為一千有沒有可能是委員這個方向我們也會納入一起考慮這個部分本來就是目前我們在你們要納入計畫喔這要差別待遇因為要用這種方式遏止這種不當的請銷嘛對不對\n\n07:00.733 --> 07:06.336\n對國內的產業也會受到傷害我同意委員的觀點你知道淘寶在幾年前一直想要進入台灣的市場裡頭只有三次要進入投審會都沒有通過就他轉個彎用什麼方式他用下一個廣告公司\n\n07:25.526 --> 07:40.250\n用廣告公司來達到營運的事實啊就是廣告公司營運的事實的情況底下你知道嗎這種廣告公司進來這又是100%由阿里巴巴集團所投資設立的叫香港這個淘寶國際產業結果呢他在這邊一樣達到營運的事實啊\n\n07:46.360 --> 08:03.087\n那你完全拿他沒轍嗎結果你知道嗎這會變成什麼早期有一段時間我們的這個電商的各自外流就達成詐騙犯案的結果嘛所以這裡頭有牽扯到各自的管理還有牽扯到什麼因為違禁商品上架的問題你完全沒有辦法管理他\n\n08:04.950 --> 08:20.973\n市長這問題要怎麼處理第一個你要去思考這個各自的問題要去跟速發部來做個協調總共有高達多少我們2024年從中國進口的小額免稅的商品高達3337萬個比我們人口數還多1000萬如果以六次滿額來計算的話你至少有556萬人來使用淘寶\n\n08:32.045 --> 08:55.094\n就確診到各自的人數是如此之多喔市長這非常嚴重喔你要怎麼處理我們會跟數位部來做不是數發部處理而已你不是跟數發部講而已還要跟他講你要如何落地監管的問題嘛他等於繞個彎不經過你的投審思嘛對不對這種情況底下是不是要考慮廢止淘寶國際產業的這個投資許可\n\n08:58.274 --> 09:17.939\n我們核准淘寶因為它是電子資訊服務業就是如同剛才委員所說的它去年雙11的時候有做了相關的廣告其實我們經濟部已經對於這家公司進行了相關的裁罰相關的裁罰不夠啦對不對它的盈利這麼大你的行政裁罰能夠裁罰多少\n\n09:19.178 --> 09:42.488\n我們而且呢除了這個以外我們也要求他要改正如果沒有改正呢如果連續的情況底下他明明就是這樣營業的方式啊他是繞個彎啊你必要的時候應該要廢止許可才對啦否則的話你就落地你這個投審會的功能就不在啦就等被架空啊不是嗎必要的時候我們可以要求他撤資好必要的時候要求撤資我就等你這句話好最後一個部分齁那個\n\n09:44.332 --> 10:11.266\n你知道那個部長上一次有關於這個Anytech的部分新加坡的這個資金很難辨識他進來以後變化股權香港更難辨識這種香港更難辨識的情況底下有一些進來之後的這個部分的資金的資本屬性的轉化的過程當中有沒有可能一個至親的機制那個次長這個部分我要請你跟那個陸委會溝通一下因為今天陸委會沒有來\n\n10:12.847 --> 10:26.986\n也就是中資的認定要怎麼認定以前港澳資基本上我們把它視為外資還把它視為第三地喔對不對可是現在隨著港澳內地化的情況底下中國的屬性越來越高這資本屬性應該是不同\n\n10:28.027 --> 10:43.661\n這種不同的情況底下他隱含的就是中資的色彩未來越高嘛那這個部分你有沒有可能以前以港資澳資澳資進來的這些人你要求他類似像陸配一樣自清一下說我呢基本上沒有受到中資的實質控制權有沒有可能那個次長\n\n10:44.622 --> 11:11.071\n有的我們對於這些業者其實都要他們來做切結我們也很擔心是假外資真中資的情形所以這個部分現在有進行切結然後未來在股權變動的時候我們也會要求這些外資如果有任何股權的變動從現在開始要求起我們已經開始了最根本的方式你們應該跟陸委會講清楚港澳條例該改要改\n\n11:12.861 --> 11:18.894\n港澳之間的這個資本屬性已經中資化的情況底下我們要把它視為中資來看待你同不同意\n\n11:19.847 --> 11:42.637\n是我們再跟陸委會來進行相關討論好好最後我再請那個部長說一下因為天然災害的結果有很多青龍的權益也受損沒有收入天然災害的結果然後有一些資金的一些貸款的部分請部長好好思考一下該優惠應該有優惠該展期應該讓它展期請那個部長回去思考一下好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝郭委員謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.591,"end":24.249,"text":"主席 我要先講一下 我每次在賴委員後面都等了很久賴世保 你不能稍微約束一下是 好再提醒一下賴世保委員好 謝謝主席有請莊部長還有彭署長以及江次長好 那個我們那個莊部長 江次長委員好"},{"start":31.089,"end":60.849,"text":"部長好 部長那個中國啤酒傾銷衝擊到台啤的員工的生計台啤公會來跟我澄清從竹南烏日散化的員工數從減少了三成到四成所以它的產業的衝擊傾銷造成市場被侵佔的情況底下是非常嚴重的現在我們在談席產地也有可能會被席產地我們可能看起來我們好像是加害者其實某個程度我們也是中國的被害者"},{"start":61.89,"end":76.469,"text":"所以這個問題你們要去面對這個問題的過程當中應該從兩頭思考我們不要成為加害者我們也不要成為被害者中國啤酒就是這種狀況啊你們現在的反省銷調查現在什麼時候做出認定產業認定的部分經濟部什麼時候"},{"start":78.663,"end":100.615,"text":"不知道6月底本來初步調查是4月20號要做出認定喔已經調查了已經在調查了那延長到什麼時候才要完成沒有延長就按照我們規定的一個進程沒有延長啊經濟部在認定我們請經濟部認定要快一點啦好不好"},{"start":101.315,"end":126.622,"text":"是我們在進行損害市長你可能不清楚但是回去多了解一下再加快已經明明對台灣的產業已經造成這麼大的傷害這很明顯中國想要透過這種傾銷的手法把台灣的消費市場腹地化把台灣的消費市場內地化不只是消費市場而已還有製造市場的部分你去看江市長你曉不曉得啊越南的部分有沒有在做不鏽鋼線啊"},{"start":129.073,"end":151.41,"text":"美國商務部的DOC調查過 越南的不鏽鋼線其實使用是南韓進口的原料生產就我去了解過業者越南也沒有做不鏽鋼線的一個廠商那為什麼有高達一萬五千多噸從2023年到了這個2024年一萬八千多噸到現在三一季已經佔了15%都從越南進來的喔"},{"start":156.684,"end":181.228,"text":"都從雲南進來囉所以台灣的產業有多大的衝擊而且還有一個那個部長這不是經濟部的事情而已經濟部我看一副狀況外還在看那些數字你看我們就是因為這樣子的情況底下我們是被害者進口產地的時候彭署長在後面有沒有加上一個進口的產地證明"},{"start":185.089,"end":212.927,"text":"報告委員那個進口產地要不要付產證那個別的貨物都有不同的規定對 就我知道有些產品就類似這不鏽鋼線的部分是不用的是不用的所以說越南進來你就是以為越南做 不是越南根本沒有那個產你沒有個產品溯源的機制嘛對啊結果搞了半天它越南是被洗產地的洗了產地越南成為加害者台灣的業者變受害者"},{"start":214.229,"end":236.426,"text":"主長你要去了解你要透過這種加入一個進口審查產地的證明才能夠避免台灣的產業被加害者同意嗎同意要去加強還有現在這種狀況嚴重到什麼程度呢這種就等於製造市場的被內地化"},{"start":237.686,"end":261.75,"text":"這樣的情況底下齁 我跟你講情況要請那個部長還有經濟部跟財政部組成一個調查小組你們看起來我們被我們起產地好像我們是加害者其實我們被害者的項目我們才一併的要去調查啊部長有沒有同意不是這個不修剛線而已啊其他的處長剛剛有講很多都是不用付的你根本不清楚"},{"start":263.356,"end":273.624,"text":"不清楚就在那經濟部你要保護產業對不對台灣的產業對不對你要保護員工的就業就業機會對不對這樣的情況底下你們要不要組一個調查清楚來調查清楚兩位"},{"start":275.752,"end":297.34,"text":"我想謝謝委員的提示這個部分我們會和經濟部一起來把這個事情來做一個好的處理避免台灣的製造市場也被內地化消費市場被內地化製造市場被內地化還有一種是消費市場跟製造市場同時都會被內地化那個莊部長我再讓你看一個數字最近大家有在討論這個電商的問題"},{"start":299.481,"end":326.104,"text":"這中國電商也有傾銷的問題這傾銷的數字我讓你看一下中國從2022年到2024年因為他用低價傾銷什麼方式就補助運費嘛99塊以下的人民幣不用運費的情況底下這種變相的低價傾銷的方式以至於讓他的整個市佔率高達64.4%而且你如果再加上香港再加上澳門"},{"start":327.83,"end":350.597,"text":"整個進口的這一個電商的部分港中澳中港澳加起來超過八成八 將近九成這也是很清楚的把台灣的消費市場內地化的一個結果嘛這會影響到什麼 影響到消費市場 影響到製造市場啊這非常嚴重啊"},{"start":352.318,"end":365.124,"text":"所以你去看類似這一種變相的這種補貼的方式達到低價傾銷的一個目的的這種做法我要請問一下你有沒有類似反傾銷制裁方式 有沒有"},{"start":367.247,"end":386.733,"text":"部分因為都是小的包裹不同的消費者這個部分然後他的貨品也很分散大部分什麼生活上的一些小東西或者是小的家電之類的這個部分那當然這個部分所謂的第一個是小包裹的量快速成長而且透過我們的海運快遞進來你現在在描述現狀我在問你如何解決問題你一直在描述現狀"},{"start":391.255,"end":418.031,"text":"現階段來說我們的免稅額度是兩千元這個部分有沒有可能差別待遇化其他的國家沒有這種低價請銷的情況有低價請銷的中國就把它降為一千或者其他國家有低價請銷我們要把它降為一千有沒有可能是委員這個方向我們也會納入一起考慮這個部分本來就是目前我們在你們要納入計畫喔這要差別待遇因為要用這種方式遏止這種不當的請銷嘛對不對"},{"start":420.733,"end":426.336,"text":"對國內的產業也會受到傷害我同意委員的觀點你知道淘寶在幾年前一直想要進入台灣的市場裡頭只有三次要進入投審會都沒有通過就他轉個彎用什麼方式他用下一個廣告公司"},{"start":445.526,"end":460.25,"text":"用廣告公司來達到營運的事實啊就是廣告公司營運的事實的情況底下你知道嗎這種廣告公司進來這又是100%由阿里巴巴集團所投資設立的叫香港這個淘寶國際產業結果呢他在這邊一樣達到營運的事實啊"},{"start":466.36,"end":483.087,"text":"那你完全拿他沒轍嗎結果你知道嗎這會變成什麼早期有一段時間我們的這個電商的各自外流就達成詐騙犯案的結果嘛所以這裡頭有牽扯到各自的管理還有牽扯到什麼因為違禁商品上架的問題你完全沒有辦法管理他"},{"start":484.95,"end":500.973,"text":"市長 這問題要怎麼處理第一個 你要去思考這個各自的問題要去跟速發部來做個協調總共有高達多少我們2024年從中國進口的小額免稅的商品高達3337萬個比我們人口數還多1000萬如果以六次滿額來計算的話你至少有556萬人來使用淘寶"},{"start":512.045,"end":535.094,"text":"就確診到各自的人數是如此之多喔市長這非常嚴重喔你要怎麼處理我們會跟數位部來做不是數發部處理而已你不是跟數發部講而已還要跟他講你要如何落地監管的問題嘛他等於繞個彎不經過你的投審思嘛對不對這種情況底下是不是要考慮廢止淘寶國際產業的這個投資許可"},{"start":538.274,"end":557.939,"text":"我們核准淘寶因為它是電子資訊服務業就是如同剛才委員所說的它去年雙11的時候有做了相關的廣告其實我們經濟部已經對於這家公司進行了相關的裁罰相關的裁罰不夠啦對不對它的盈利這麼大你的行政裁罰能夠裁罰多少"},{"start":559.178,"end":582.488,"text":"我們而且呢除了這個以外我們也要求他要改正如果沒有改正呢如果連續的情況底下他明明就是這樣營業的方式啊他是繞個彎啊你必要的時候應該要廢止許可才對啦否則的話你就落地你這個投審會的功能就不在啦就等被架空啊不是嗎必要的時候我們可以要求他撤資好必要的時候要求撤資我就等你這句話好最後一個部分齁那個"},{"start":584.332,"end":611.266,"text":"你知道那個部長上一次有關於這個Anytech的部分新加坡的這個資金很難辨識他進來以後變化股權香港更難辨識這種香港更難辨識的情況底下有一些進來之後的這個部分的資金的資本屬性的轉化的過程當中有沒有可能一個至親的機制那個次長這個部分我要請你跟那個陸委會溝通一下因為今天陸委會沒有來"},{"start":612.847,"end":626.986,"text":"也就是中資的認定要怎麼認定以前港澳資基本上我們把它視為外資還把它視為第三地喔對不對可是現在隨著港澳內地化的情況底下中國的屬性越來越高這資本屬性應該是不同"},{"start":628.027,"end":643.661,"text":"這種不同的情況底下他隱含的就是中資的色彩未來越高嘛那這個部分你有沒有可能以前以港資澳資澳資進來的這些人你要求他類似像陸配一樣自清一下說我呢基本上沒有受到中資的實質控制權有沒有可能那個次長"},{"start":644.622,"end":671.071,"text":"有的我們對於這些業者其實都要他們來做切結我們也很擔心是假外資真中資的情形所以這個部分現在有進行切結然後未來在股權變動的時候我們也會要求這些外資如果有任何股權的變動從現在開始要求起我們已經開始了最根本的方式你們應該跟陸委會講清楚港澳條例該改要改"},{"start":672.861,"end":678.894,"text":"港澳之間的這個資本屬性已經中資化的情況底下我們要把它視為中資來看待你同不同意"},{"start":679.847,"end":702.637,"text":"是 我們再跟陸委會來進行相關討論好好 最後我再請那個部長說一下因為天然災害的結果有很多青龍的權益也受損 沒有收入天然災害的結果然後有一些資金的一些貸款的部分請部長好好思考一下該優惠應該有優惠 該展期應該讓它展期請那個部長回去思考一下好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝郭委員 謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":413,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時6分）主席，我要先講一下，我每次在賴委員後面都等了很久，能不能稍微約束一下？"],["主席：好，會再提醒一下賴士葆委員。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝主席。有請莊部長還有彭署長以及江次長。"],["主席：請莊部長、江次長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：部長好。部長，中國啤酒傾銷，衝擊到台啤員工的生計，台啤工會來跟我陳情，從竹南、烏日到善化，員工數減少了三成到四成，所以對它產業的衝擊，即洗產地、傾銷造成市場被侵占的情況是非常嚴重的。","現在我們在談洗產地，但也有可能會被洗產地，看起來我們好像是加害者，其實某個程度我們也是中國的被害者，所以你們在面對這個問題的過程當中，應該從兩頭來思考，我們不要成為加害者，也不要成為被害者，中國啤酒就是這種狀況，你們現在的反傾銷調查什麼時候要做出產業認定？經濟部，什麼時候？不知道？"],["莊部長翠雲：6月底，我們的目前……"],["郭委員國文：本來初步調查是4月20號要做出認定。"],["莊部長翠雲：已經在調查了。"],["郭委員國文：要延長到什麼時候才要完成？"],["莊部長翠雲：就是按照我們規定的進程，目前並沒有延長。"],["郭委員國文：是經濟部在認定，所以請經濟部認定要快一點，好不好？"],["江次長文若：是，我們在進行損害……"],["郭委員國文：次長，你可能不清楚，但是回去多了解一下，這要加快！明明已經對台灣產業造成這麼大的傷害，這很明顯，就是中國想要透過這種傾銷的手法，把台灣的消費市場腹地化、把台灣的消費市場內地化，不只是消費市場而已，還有製造市場的部分。江次長曉不曉得，越南有沒有在做不鏽鋼線？美國商務部（DOC）曾調查過，越南的不鏽鋼線其實是進口南韓的原料來生產；就我向業者進行了解的，越南也沒有什麼廠在做不鏽鋼線，那為什麼進口高達一萬五千多噸？2023年有一萬五千多噸；到了2024年有一萬八千多噸；到現在1到3季占比已有15%，都是從越南進來的，都從越南進來了，所以對台灣的產業有多大的衝擊！","而且還有一個，部長，這不是經濟部的事情而已，我看經濟部一副就是狀況外，還在看那些數字，其實在這樣子的情況底下，我們是被害者。彭署長，進口產地的時候，有沒有要加上進口的產地證明？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，關於進口產地要不要附產證，個別的貨物都有不同的規定。"],["郭委員國文：對，就我所知，有些產品像不鏽鋼線就是不用的。"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["郭委員國文：所以從越南進來，你就以為是越南做的，不是！越南根本沒有生產那個，可是因為你沒有一個產品溯源的機制嘛！結果搞了半天，越南是被用來洗產地的，洗了產地，越南成為加害者，台灣的業者變成受害者。署長、部長，你要去了解，你要透過這種附上一個進口產地的審查證明，才能夠避免台灣的產業變成被害者，同意嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：同意。"],["郭委員國文：好，既然同意就要去加強。還有，現在這種狀況嚴重到什麼程度呢？這樣就等於製造市場的被內地化，在這樣的情況底下，我跟你講，要由經濟部跟財政部組成一個調查小組，看起來我們洗產地就好像我們是加害者，其實對於我們是被害者的項目也要一併去調查，部長同不同意？並不是只有不鏽鋼線而已，像署長剛剛也有講，很多都是不用附的，你根本就不清楚。站在經濟部的立場，你要保護台灣的產業對不對？你要保護員工的就業機會對不對？請問兩位，在這樣的情況底下，你們要不要組一個調查小組來調查清楚？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的提示，針對這個部分我們會和經濟部一起來對這個事情做一個好的處理。"],["郭委員國文：要避免台灣的製造市場也被內地化──消費市場被內地化、製造市場被內地化，還有一種是消費市場跟製造市場同時都被內地化。莊部長，我再讓你看一個數字，最近大家有在討論電商的問題，中國電商也有傾銷的問題，我讓你看一下傾銷的數字。中國從2022年到2024年用低價傾銷，採什麼方式？就是補助運費，滿人民幣99塊就不用運費，變相的用這種低價傾銷的方式，以致於讓它的整個市占率高達64.4%。而且如果再加上香港、再加上澳門，整個電商進口的部分，中、港、澳加起來超過八成八，將近九成，這是很清楚地把台灣的消費市場內地化的一個結果，這會影響到什麼？會影響到消費市場、影響到製造市場，這非常嚴重啊！你去看這種採變相的補貼方式以達到低價傾銷目的的作法，我要請問一下，你有沒有類似反傾銷的制裁方式？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分因為都是小的包裹，然後是不同的消費者，而且貨品也很分散，大部分是生活上的一些小東西或者是小家電之類的，在這個部分第一個是小額包裹的數量快速成長，而且透過我們的海運快遞進來；第二個部分還有……"],["郭委員國文：你現在在描述現狀，我是在問你如何解決問題，你卻一直在描述現狀。"],["莊部長翠雲：我知道……"],["郭委員國文：以現階段來說，我們的免稅額度是2,000元對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，這個部分我們會……"],["郭委員國文：這個部分有沒有可能差別待遇化？其他的國家沒有這種低價傾銷的情況？對於有低價傾銷的中國就降為1,000，或者如果其他的國家有低價傾銷，我們也要把它降為1,000，有沒有可能？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，對於委員所說的這個方向我們也會納入一起考慮，這個部分目前我們本來就是在審慎地研議當中。"],["郭委員國文：你們要納入計畫喔！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，我們納入考量。"],["郭委員國文：這要有差別待遇，要用這種方式遏止這種不當的傾銷，對不對？你同意嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，國內的產業也會受到傷害……"],["郭委員國文：你同意嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，我同意委員的觀點，但是對作法我們會再來研議。"],["郭委員國文：那我再問一下經濟部，淘寶在幾年前就一直想要進入台灣的市場裡頭，結果3次要進入，可是投審會都沒有通過，對不對？"],["江次長文若：是。"],["郭委員國文：結果它轉個彎用什麼方式？它用一個廣告公司來達到營運的事實，在用廣告公司營運的情況底下，你知道嗎？這種廣告公司進來，是百分之百由阿里巴巴集團所投資設立的，就叫香港淘寶國際產業，結果它在這邊一樣達到營運的事實啊！你完全拿它沒轍嗎？你知道這樣會變成怎麼樣？在早期有一段時間我們電商的個資外流，就產生詐騙泛濫的結果嘛！所以這裡頭有牽扯到個資的管理，還有牽扯到一些違禁商品上架的問題，你完全沒有辦法管理它，次長，這個問題要怎麼處理？第一個，你要去思考個資的問題，要去跟數發部來做協調，總共高達多少？我們2024年從中國進口的小額免稅商品高達3,337萬個，比我們人口數還多1,000萬，如果以6次滿額來計算的話，至少有556萬人使用淘寶，所以牽扯到個資的人數是如此之多，次長，這非常嚴重喔！你要怎麼處理？"],["江次長文若：是，我們會跟數位部來做……"],["郭委員國文：你不是只跟數發部講這個而已，還要跟它講要如何落地監管的問題。"],["江次長文若：是。"],["郭委員國文：它等於是繞個彎不經過你的投審司，對不對？"],["江次長文若：是。"],["郭委員國文：在這種情況底下，是不是要考慮廢止這個淘寶國際產業的投資許可？"],["江次長文若：我們核准淘寶，因為它是電子資訊服務業，就如同剛才委員所說的，它在去年雙11的時候有做了相關的廣告，其實我們經濟部已經對這家公司進行了相關的裁罰。"],["郭委員國文：相關的裁罰不夠啦！對不對？它的營業額這麼大，你的行政裁罰能夠裁罰多少？"],["江次長文若：除了這個以外，我們要求它要改正。"],["郭委員國文：如果沒有改正呢？如果在連續發生的情況底下，它明明就是用這樣的營業方式，就是繞個彎啊！你在必要的時候應該要廢止許可才對。"],["江次長文若：我們會納入考慮。"],["郭委員國文：否則你們投審會的功能就不在了，就等於被架空了，不是嗎？"],["江次長文若：在必要的時候我們可以要求它撤資。"],["郭委員國文：好，必要的時候要求撤資，我就等你這句話。好，最後一個部分，上一次關於AnyTech的部分，就是新加坡的資金很難辨識，因為它進來以後變化股權，香港的資金更難辨識，在這種香港資金更難辨識的情況底下，有一些在進來之後資本的屬性轉化了，在這個過程當中有沒有可能建立一個自清的機制？次長，這個部分我要請你跟陸委會溝通一下，因為今天陸委會沒有來。也就是中資的認定要怎麼認定，以前基本上我們把港澳資視為外資，還把它視為第三地，對不對？可是現在隨著港澳的內地化，在這種情況底下，中國的屬性越來越高，資本屬性應該是不同，在這種不同的情況底下，它隱含的就是中資的色彩越來越高，關於這個部分，對以前以港資、澳資進來的這些人，你有沒有可能要求他像陸配一樣自清說自己基本上沒有受到中資的實質控制權？次長，有沒有可能？"],["江次長文若：有的，我們對於這些業者其實都有要他們來做切結，因為我們也很擔心是假外資、真中資的情形，所以這個部分也會要求……"],["郭委員國文：現在有進行切結？"],["江次長文若：然後未來在股權變動的時候，我們也會要求這些外資如果有任何股權的變動，都要跟我們……"],["郭委員國文：從現在就開始要求。"],["江次長文若：我們已經開始了。"],["郭委員國文：開始了？"],["江次長文若：對。"],["郭委員國文：好，最根本的方式是你們應該要跟陸委會講清楚，港澳條例該改就要改，在港澳的資本屬性已經中資化的情況底下，我們要把它視為中資來看待，你同不同意？"],["江次長文若：是，我們再跟陸委會來進行相關的討論。"],["郭委員國文：好。最後，我再請部長說明一下，天然災害導致很多青農的權益受損，沒有收入，這是天然災害的結果，關於一些資金貸款的部分，請部長好好思考一下，該優惠就應該要有優惠、該展期就應該要展期，請部長回去思考一下，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱代）：好，謝謝郭委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請賴委員惠員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","林思銘","陳玉珍","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","黃國昌","林楚茵","徐富癸","陳冠廷","牛煦庭","黃捷","邱志偉"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、農業部及公平交易委員會就「防範中國大陸產品低價傾銷及透\n過台灣洗產地問題之因應策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00003"}}}