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00:00:33,472\n市副主委我想今天大家很關心的就是未來是不是海委會底下有必要要設置一個國家海洋科技營運中心因為這看起來又是在民進黨政府這個\n\n3\n00:00:35,375 --> 00:00:52,196\n執政的任期內又多增加一個行政法人我們先來看在民進黨政府這些年其實已經設置了蠻多的行政法人\n\n4\n00:00:54,386 --> 00:01:14,302\n那麼這個設置行政法人為什麼看從107年開始以來陸陸續續的也設置了大概有七八個行政法人那其實我們知道設置行政法人他有一個很大的問題就是似乎就是想要應該說就\n\n5\n00:01:17,004 --> 00:01:24,830\n外界會質疑設置行政法人的問題是不是有意要規避政府的監督\n\n6\n00:01:28,221 --> 00:01:52,555\n報告委員未來還是海委會來監督不會有規避的問題那就海委會來講我們設置這個行政法人因為船模實驗室跟基礎資料的調查船的部分他需要非常高度專業的這些人才的一個禁用然後包括他未來運作上的一個彈性效能等等所以評估之後我們確實認為說有設立行政法人的這樣的一個必要\n\n7\n00:01:53,095 --> 00:02:18,727\n但是因為你們之前才設立了這個國家海洋研究院我們可以看到兩邊的業務範圍其實有相當程度的重疊那所以沒有辦法在國家海洋研究院底下可能另外在職缺的部分然後可以透過約聘人員然後等等的讓它更為彈性而不需要在政府的既有這個已經相當繁複的組織架構底下然後又再多增設一個海洋科技營運中心\n\n8\n00:02:19,327 --> 00:02:36,352\n根本報告我們當初有跟院裡面來請證這些相關的人員那因為他有上百位的人員然後包括這些非常專業的這樣子的一個人才很難用公務員考試的方式來聘用所以院裡面也請我們來思考要不要設立行政法人\n\n9\n00:02:36,772 --> 00:02:52,367\n那國海院跟這個設置中心跟這個營運中心事實上它的業務是有區隔的不會重疊那特別是這個營運中心將來對於船模實驗室的一個營運還有調查船的整個的管理維運等等它是副主要的一個功能\n\n10\n00:02:53,106 --> 00:03:12,510\n所以就是說只是為了一個調查船什麼船模中心有沒有必要特別在額外再增設一個機構然後來做這方面的營運更何況我們知道其實就現在我們沒有看到就是你們對於要成立海洋科技營運中心預估未來會有多少的經費規模你們的預算規模是多少\n\n11\n00:03:16,834 --> 00:03:33,145\n人員的部分國海院目前只有78元我們要增加事實上非常困難我說海洋科技營運中心你們未來預估要花政府多少錢經費的部分我們從115年開始預估115年下半年我們還需要大概6000萬左右的經費然後116、117、118大概差不多3億左右的這樣子的一個經費的估算\n\n12\n00:03:39,918 --> 00:03:56,747\n所以未來大概就是3億對就是後三年對116到118對我的意思是說你們這裡接下來如果要成立國家海洋科技營運中心的話大概會每年大概預算就是差不多3億3億左右嗎還是更高\n\n13\n00:03:58,314 --> 00:04:25,069\n到18是3億左右對但未來因為我們的行政法人會自主營運然後他會有受託一些的業務等等的也會降低這個政府的在的支出然後會有自償率的這樣提高是因為現在的這個我們看到我現在盧列的這個行政法人其實他們遇到了一些問題就是他們自籌能力都不好\n\n14\n00:04:26,645 --> 00:04:50,312\n大部分都是靠政府的預算的捐補助來指引或者是說他們可能拿的相關研究計畫也都是從其他的部會機關所取得所以其實成立一個行政法人最重要的問題還是在於說第一個跟現行的組織有沒有疊床加屋第二個他們的自從能力\n\n15\n00:04:50,912 --> 00:04:58,741\n裁員自籌能力如何那你們現在就是看起來海洋科技營運中心為了他們可以從哪裡可以自主裁員自籌裁員從哪些\n\n16\n00:05:02,815 --> 00:05:26,090\n現在目前我們國海院的委辦計畫裡面也都是委託給一些外面的單位或學校來去執行這樣子的一個計畫那未來如果行政法人能夠順利成立的話當然國海院本身的一個義務就是要做全海域的調查那這些的一個經費裡面事實上我們就可以依照行政程序法裡面的行政委託來委託這個行政法人來做這樣子的一個執行這是第一個\n\n17\n00:05:26,630 --> 00:05:47,751\n那第二個我們也期待說未來這個整個船舶實驗室如果能夠如期的一個完成的話那未來甚至可以針對這個國內的相關的一個部會的特殊的一個船舶甚至是商業的船舶特殊的商業船舶的一個需求那這部分也是一個輸入來源那未來在更穩定的一個發展之下我們希望說也能夠來去接受這個國外的一個所謂的船舶的一個委託\n\n18\n00:05:48,655 --> 00:06:15,528\n是如果說聽你們這樣講的話看起來就是未來海洋科技營運中心的主要的這個自籌來源又還是回到由海洋研究院這裡來支應但是海洋研究院的預算也是有一定他給了這個海洋科技營運中心之後可能要補助給其他學校機關團體的經費就又沒有了所以我的想法是說其實你海洋科技營運中心應該要有個很清楚的未來的自籌比例\n\n19\n00:06:16,408 --> 00:06:39,739\n至少差不多一半以上他未來可以透過自籌裁員來支應否則的話我覺得這也是增加政府的負擔不會全就是由國海院這邊直接全部由他那邊轉因為我們將來受託包括那個船母實驗有商船啦一般性的一些船舶啦那這些都是他的收入來源那我們會朝委員所期許的我們可以至少可以超過一半這樣子的一個自籌\n\n20\n00:06:40,919 --> 00:07:09,178\n我希望說這個之後你們可以再提供一個比較清楚的未來五年這個假設海洋科技營運中心成立之後它的自籌比例的規劃以及它的自籌裁員的管道是如何因為這個我們看到過去的例子這些行政法人其實他們成立之後後來都面臨到就營運上面的困難那我不希望說之後成立了海洋科技營運中心又重蹈覆轍\n\n21\n00:07:11,179 --> 00:07:14,683\n自己生存下來的能力還要拖垮政府的負擔\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1482\t2062\t謝謝主席有請吳副主委\n20214\t33472\t市副主委我想今天大家很關心的就是未來是不是海委會底下有必要要設置一個國家海洋科技營運中心因為這看起來又是在民進黨政府這個\n35375\t52196\t執政的任期內又多增加一個行政法人我們先來看在民進黨政府這些年其實已經設置了蠻多的行政法人\n54386\t74302\t那麼這個設置行政法人為什麼看從107年開始以來陸陸續續的也設置了大概有七八個行政法人那其實我們知道設置行政法人他有一個很大的問題就是似乎就是想要應該說就\n77004\t84830\t外界會質疑設置行政法人的問題是不是有意要規避政府的監督\n88221\t112555\t報告委員 未來還是海委會來監督不會有規避的問題那就海委會來講我們設置這個行政法人因為船模實驗室跟基礎資料的調查船的部分他需要非常高度專業的這些人才的一個禁用然後包括他未來運作上的一個彈性效能等等所以評估之後我們確實認為說有設立行政法人的這樣的一個必要\n113095\t138727\t但是因為你們之前才設立了這個國家海洋研究院我們可以看到兩邊的業務範圍其實有相當程度的重疊那所以沒有辦法在國家海洋研究院底下可能另外在職缺的部分然後可以透過約聘人員然後等等的讓它更為彈性而不需要在政府的既有這個已經相當繁複的組織架構底下然後又再多增設一個海洋科技營運中心\n139327\t156352\t根本報告我們當初有跟院裡面來請證這些相關的人員那因為他有上百位的人員然後包括這些非常專業的這樣子的一個人才很難用公務員考試的方式來聘用所以院裡面也請我們來思考要不要設立行政法人\n156772\t172367\t那國海院跟這個設置中心跟這個營運中心事實上它的業務是有區隔的不會重疊那特別是這個營運中心將來對於船模實驗室的一個營運還有調查船的整個的管理維運等等它是副主要的一個功能\n173106\t192510\t所以就是說只是為了一個調查船 什麼船模中心有沒有必要特別在額外再增設一個機構然後來做這方面的營運更何況我們知道其實就現在我們沒有看到就是你們對於要成立海洋科技營運中心預估未來會有多少的經費規模你們的預算規模是多少\n196834\t213145\t人員的部分國海院目前只有78元我們要增加事實上非常困難我說海洋科技營運中心你們未來預估要花政府多少錢經費的部分我們從115年開始預估115年下半年我們還需要大概6000萬左右的經費然後116、117、118大概差不多3億左右的這樣子的一個經費的估算\n219918\t236747\t所以未來大概就是3億對就是後三年對116到118對我的意思是說你們這裡接下來如果要成立國家海洋科技營運中心的話大概會每年大概預算就是差不多3億3億左右嗎還是更高\n238314\t265069\t到18是3億左右對但未來因為我們的行政法人會自主營運然後他會有受託一些的業務等等的也會降低這個政府的在的支出然後會有自償率的這樣提高是因為現在的這個我們看到我現在盧列的這個行政法人其實他們遇到了一些問題就是他們自籌能力都不好\n266645\t290312\t大部分都是靠政府的預算的捐補助來指引或者是說他們可能拿的相關研究計畫也都是從其他的部會機關所取得所以其實成立一個行政法人最重要的問題還是在於說第一個跟現行的組織有沒有疊床加屋第二個他們的自從能力\n290912\t298741\t裁員自籌能力如何那你們現在就是看起來海洋科技營運中心為了他們可以從哪裡可以自主裁員自籌裁員從哪些\n302815\t326090\t現在目前我們國海院的委辦計畫裡面也都是委託給一些外面的單位或學校來去執行這樣子的一個計畫那未來如果行政法人能夠順利成立的話當然國海院本身的一個義務就是要做全海域的調查那這些的一個經費裡面事實上我們就可以依照行政程序法裡面的行政委託來委託這個行政法人來做這樣子的一個執行這是第一個\n326630\t347751\t那第二個我們也期待說未來這個整個船舶實驗室如果能夠如期的一個完成的話那未來甚至可以針對這個國內的相關的一個部會的特殊的一個船舶甚至是商業的船舶特殊的商業船舶的一個需求那這部分也是一個輸入來源那未來在更穩定的一個發展之下我們希望說也能夠來去接受這個國外的一個所謂的船舶的一個委託\n348655\t375528\t是 如果說聽你們這樣講的話看起來就是未來海洋科技營運中心的主要的這個自籌來源又還是回到由海洋研究院這裡來支應但是海洋研究院的預算也是有一定他給了這個海洋科技營運中心之後可能要補助給其他學校機關團體的經費就又沒有了所以我的想法是說其實你海洋科技營運中心應該要有個很清楚的未來的自籌比例\n376408\t399739\t至少差不多一半以上他未來可以透過自籌裁員來支應否則的話我覺得這也是增加政府的負擔不會全就是由國海院這邊直接全部由他那邊轉因為我們將來受託包括那個船母實驗有商船啦一般性的一些船舶啦那這些都是他的收入來源那我們會朝委員所期許的我們可以至少可以超過一半這樣子的一個自籌\n400919\t429178\t我希望說這個之後你們可以再提供一個比較清楚的未來五年這個假設海洋科技營運中心成立之後它的自籌比例的規劃以及它的自籌裁員的管道是如何因為這個我們看到過去的例子這些行政法人其實他們成立之後後來都面臨到就營運上面的困難那我不希望說之後成立了海洋科技營運中心又重蹈覆轍\n431179\t434683\t自己生存下來的能力還要拖垮政府的負擔\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請吳副主委\n市副主委我想今天大家很關心的就是未來是不是海委會底下有必要要設置一個國家海洋科技營運中心因為這看起來又是在民進黨政府這個\n執政的任期內又多增加一個行政法人我們先來看在民進黨政府這些年其實已經設置了蠻多的行政法人\n那麼這個設置行政法人為什麼看從107年開始以來陸陸續續的也設置了大概有七八個行政法人那其實我們知道設置行政法人他有一個很大的問題就是似乎就是想要應該說就\n外界會質疑設置行政法人的問題是不是有意要規避政府的監督\n報告委員 未來還是海委會來監督不會有規避的問題那就海委會來講我們設置這個行政法人因為船模實驗室跟基礎資料的調查船的部分他需要非常高度專業的這些人才的一個禁用然後包括他未來運作上的一個彈性效能等等所以評估之後我們確實認為說有設立行政法人的這樣的一個必要\n但是因為你們之前才設立了這個國家海洋研究院我們可以看到兩邊的業務範圍其實有相當程度的重疊那所以沒有辦法在國家海洋研究院底下可能另外在職缺的部分然後可以透過約聘人員然後等等的讓它更為彈性而不需要在政府的既有這個已經相當繁複的組織架構底下然後又再多增設一個海洋科技營運中心\n根本報告我們當初有跟院裡面來請證這些相關的人員那因為他有上百位的人員然後包括這些非常專業的這樣子的一個人才很難用公務員考試的方式來聘用所以院裡面也請我們來思考要不要設立行政法人\n那國海院跟這個設置中心跟這個營運中心事實上它的業務是有區隔的不會重疊那特別是這個營運中心將來對於船模實驗室的一個營運還有調查船的整個的管理維運等等它是副主要的一個功能\n所以就是說只是為了一個調查船 什麼船模中心有沒有必要特別在額外再增設一個機構然後來做這方面的營運更何況我們知道其實就現在我們沒有看到就是你們對於要成立海洋科技營運中心預估未來會有多少的經費規模你們的預算規模是多少\n人員的部分國海院目前只有78元我們要增加事實上非常困難我說海洋科技營運中心你們未來預估要花政府多少錢經費的部分我們從115年開始預估115年下半年我們還需要大概6000萬左右的經費然後116、117、118大概差不多3億左右的這樣子的一個經費的估算\n所以未來大概就是3億對就是後三年對116到118對我的意思是說你們這裡接下來如果要成立國家海洋科技營運中心的話大概會每年大概預算就是差不多3億3億左右嗎還是更高\n到18是3億左右對但未來因為我們的行政法人會自主營運然後他會有受託一些的業務等等的也會降低這個政府的在的支出然後會有自償率的這樣提高是因為現在的這個我們看到我現在盧列的這個行政法人其實他們遇到了一些問題就是他們自籌能力都不好\n大部分都是靠政府的預算的捐補助來指引或者是說他們可能拿的相關研究計畫也都是從其他的部會機關所取得所以其實成立一個行政法人最重要的問題還是在於說第一個跟現行的組織有沒有疊床加屋第二個他們的自從能力\n裁員自籌能力如何那你們現在就是看起來海洋科技營運中心為了他們可以從哪裡可以自主裁員自籌裁員從哪些\n現在目前我們國海院的委辦計畫裡面也都是委託給一些外面的單位或學校來去執行這樣子的一個計畫那未來如果行政法人能夠順利成立的話當然國海院本身的一個義務就是要做全海域的調查那這些的一個經費裡面事實上我們就可以依照行政程序法裡面的行政委託來委託這個行政法人來做這樣子的一個執行這是第一個\n那第二個我們也期待說未來這個整個船舶實驗室如果能夠如期的一個完成的話那未來甚至可以針對這個國內的相關的一個部會的特殊的一個船舶甚至是商業的船舶特殊的商業船舶的一個需求那這部分也是一個輸入來源那未來在更穩定的一個發展之下我們希望說也能夠來去接受這個國外的一個所謂的船舶的一個委託\n是 如果說聽你們這樣講的話看起來就是未來海洋科技營運中心的主要的這個自籌來源又還是回到由海洋研究院這裡來支應但是海洋研究院的預算也是有一定他給了這個海洋科技營運中心之後可能要補助給其他學校機關團體的經費就又沒有了所以我的想法是說其實你海洋科技營運中心應該要有個很清楚的未來的自籌比例\n至少差不多一半以上他未來可以透過自籌裁員來支應否則的話我覺得這也是增加政府的負擔不會全就是由國海院這邊直接全部由他那邊轉因為我們將來受託包括那個船母實驗有商船啦一般性的一些船舶啦那這些都是他的收入來源那我們會朝委員所期許的我們可以至少可以超過一半這樣子的一個自籌\n我希望說這個之後你們可以再提供一個比較清楚的未來五年這個假設海洋科技營運中心成立之後它的自籌比例的規劃以及它的自籌裁員的管道是如何因為這個我們看到過去的例子這些行政法人其實他們成立之後後來都面臨到就營運上面的困難那我不希望說之後成立了海洋科技營運中心又重蹈覆轍\n自己生存下來的能力還要拖垮政府的負擔\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.482 --> 00:02.062\n謝謝主席有請吳副主委\n\n00:20.214 --> 00:33.472\n市副主委我想今天大家很關心的就是未來是不是海委會底下有必要要設置一個國家海洋科技營運中心因為這看起來又是在民進黨政府這個\n\n00:35.375 --> 00:52.196\n執政的任期內又多增加一個行政法人我們先來看在民進黨政府這些年其實已經設置了蠻多的行政法人\n\n00:54.386 --> 01:14.302\n那麼這個設置行政法人為什麼看從107年開始以來陸陸續續的也設置了大概有七八個行政法人那其實我們知道設置行政法人他有一個很大的問題就是似乎就是想要應該說就\n\n01:17.004 --> 01:24.830\n外界會質疑設置行政法人的問題是不是有意要規避政府的監督\n\n01:28.221 --> 01:52.555\n報告委員未來還是海委會來監督不會有規避的問題那就海委會來講我們設置這個行政法人因為船模實驗室跟基礎資料的調查船的部分他需要非常高度專業的這些人才的一個禁用然後包括他未來運作上的一個彈性效能等等所以評估之後我們確實認為說有設立行政法人的這樣的一個必要\n\n01:53.095 --> 02:18.727\n但是因為你們之前才設立了這個國家海洋研究院我們可以看到兩邊的業務範圍其實有相當程度的重疊那所以沒有辦法在國家海洋研究院底下可能另外在職缺的部分然後可以透過約聘人員然後等等的讓它更為彈性而不需要在政府的既有這個已經相當繁複的組織架構底下然後又再多增設一個海洋科技營運中心\n\n02:19.327 --> 02:36.352\n根本報告我們當初有跟院裡面來請證這些相關的人員那因為他有上百位的人員然後包括這些非常專業的這樣子的一個人才很難用公務員考試的方式來聘用所以院裡面也請我們來思考要不要設立行政法人\n\n02:36.772 --> 02:52.367\n那國海院跟這個設置中心跟這個營運中心事實上它的業務是有區隔的不會重疊那特別是這個營運中心將來對於船模實驗室的一個營運還有調查船的整個的管理維運等等它是副主要的一個功能\n\n02:53.106 --> 03:12.510\n所以就是說只是為了一個調查船什麼船模中心有沒有必要特別在額外再增設一個機構然後來做這方面的營運更何況我們知道其實就現在我們沒有看到就是你們對於要成立海洋科技營運中心預估未來會有多少的經費規模你們的預算規模是多少\n\n03:16.834 --> 03:33.145\n人員的部分國海院目前只有78元我們要增加事實上非常困難我說海洋科技營運中心你們未來預估要花政府多少錢經費的部分我們從115年開始預估115年下半年我們還需要大概6000萬左右的經費然後116、117、118大概差不多3億左右的這樣子的一個經費的估算\n\n03:39.918 --> 03:56.747\n所以未來大概就是3億對就是後三年對116到118對我的意思是說你們這裡接下來如果要成立國家海洋科技營運中心的話大概會每年大概預算就是差不多3億3億左右嗎還是更高\n\n03:58.314 --> 04:25.069\n到18是3億左右對但未來因為我們的行政法人會自主營運然後他會有受託一些的業務等等的也會降低這個政府的在的支出然後會有自償率的這樣提高是因為現在的這個我們看到我現在盧列的這個行政法人其實他們遇到了一些問題就是他們自籌能力都不好\n\n04:26.645 --> 04:50.312\n大部分都是靠政府的預算的捐補助來指引或者是說他們可能拿的相關研究計畫也都是從其他的部會機關所取得所以其實成立一個行政法人最重要的問題還是在於說第一個跟現行的組織有沒有疊床加屋第二個他們的自從能力\n\n04:50.912 --> 04:58.741\n裁員自籌能力如何那你們現在就是看起來海洋科技營運中心為了他們可以從哪裡可以自主裁員自籌裁員從哪些\n\n05:02.815 --> 05:26.090\n現在目前我們國海院的委辦計畫裡面也都是委託給一些外面的單位或學校來去執行這樣子的一個計畫那未來如果行政法人能夠順利成立的話當然國海院本身的一個義務就是要做全海域的調查那這些的一個經費裡面事實上我們就可以依照行政程序法裡面的行政委託來委託這個行政法人來做這樣子的一個執行這是第一個\n\n05:26.630 --> 05:47.751\n那第二個我們也期待說未來這個整個船舶實驗室如果能夠如期的一個完成的話那未來甚至可以針對這個國內的相關的一個部會的特殊的一個船舶甚至是商業的船舶特殊的商業船舶的一個需求那這部分也是一個輸入來源那未來在更穩定的一個發展之下我們希望說也能夠來去接受這個國外的一個所謂的船舶的一個委託\n\n05:48.655 --> 06:15.528\n是如果說聽你們這樣講的話看起來就是未來海洋科技營運中心的主要的這個自籌來源又還是回到由海洋研究院這裡來支應但是海洋研究院的預算也是有一定他給了這個海洋科技營運中心之後可能要補助給其他學校機關團體的經費就又沒有了所以我的想法是說其實你海洋科技營運中心應該要有個很清楚的未來的自籌比例\n\n06:16.408 --> 06:39.739\n至少差不多一半以上他未來可以透過自籌裁員來支應否則的話我覺得這也是增加政府的負擔不會全就是由國海院這邊直接全部由他那邊轉因為我們將來受託包括那個船母實驗有商船啦一般性的一些船舶啦那這些都是他的收入來源那我們會朝委員所期許的我們可以至少可以超過一半這樣子的一個自籌\n\n06:40.919 --> 07:09.178\n我希望說這個之後你們可以再提供一個比較清楚的未來五年這個假設海洋科技營運中心成立之後它的自籌比例的規劃以及它的自籌裁員的管道是如何因為這個我們看到過去的例子這些行政法人其實他們成立之後後來都面臨到就營運上面的困難那我不希望說之後成立了海洋科技營運中心又重蹈覆轍\n\n07:11.179 --> 07:14.683\n自己生存下來的能力還要拖垮政府的負擔\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.482,"end":2.062,"text":"謝謝主席有請吳副主委"},{"start":20.214,"end":33.472,"text":"市副主委我想今天大家很關心的就是未來是不是海委會底下有必要要設置一個國家海洋科技營運中心因為這看起來又是在民進黨政府這個"},{"start":35.375,"end":52.196,"text":"執政的任期內又多增加一個行政法人我們先來看在民進黨政府這些年其實已經設置了蠻多的行政法人"},{"start":54.386,"end":74.302,"text":"那麼這個設置行政法人為什麼看從107年開始以來陸陸續續的也設置了大概有七八個行政法人那其實我們知道設置行政法人他有一個很大的問題就是似乎就是想要應該說就"},{"start":77.004,"end":84.83,"text":"外界會質疑設置行政法人的問題是不是有意要規避政府的監督"},{"start":88.221,"end":112.555,"text":"報告委員 未來還是海委會來監督不會有規避的問題那就海委會來講我們設置這個行政法人因為船模實驗室跟基礎資料的調查船的部分他需要非常高度專業的這些人才的一個禁用然後包括他未來運作上的一個彈性效能等等所以評估之後我們確實認為說有設立行政法人的這樣的一個必要"},{"start":113.095,"end":138.727,"text":"但是因為你們之前才設立了這個國家海洋研究院我們可以看到兩邊的業務範圍其實有相當程度的重疊那所以沒有辦法在國家海洋研究院底下可能另外在職缺的部分然後可以透過約聘人員然後等等的讓它更為彈性而不需要在政府的既有這個已經相當繁複的組織架構底下然後又再多增設一個海洋科技營運中心"},{"start":139.327,"end":156.352,"text":"根本報告我們當初有跟院裡面來請證這些相關的人員那因為他有上百位的人員然後包括這些非常專業的這樣子的一個人才很難用公務員考試的方式來聘用所以院裡面也請我們來思考要不要設立行政法人"},{"start":156.772,"end":172.367,"text":"那國海院跟這個設置中心跟這個營運中心事實上它的業務是有區隔的不會重疊那特別是這個營運中心將來對於船模實驗室的一個營運還有調查船的整個的管理維運等等它是副主要的一個功能"},{"start":173.106,"end":192.51,"text":"所以就是說只是為了一個調查船 什麼船模中心有沒有必要特別在額外再增設一個機構然後來做這方面的營運更何況我們知道其實就現在我們沒有看到就是你們對於要成立海洋科技營運中心預估未來會有多少的經費規模你們的預算規模是多少"},{"start":196.834,"end":213.145,"text":"人員的部分國海院目前只有78元我們要增加事實上非常困難我說海洋科技營運中心你們未來預估要花政府多少錢經費的部分我們從115年開始預估115年下半年我們還需要大概6000萬左右的經費然後116、117、118大概差不多3億左右的這樣子的一個經費的估算"},{"start":219.918,"end":236.747,"text":"所以未來大概就是3億對就是後三年對116到118對我的意思是說你們這裡接下來如果要成立國家海洋科技營運中心的話大概會每年大概預算就是差不多3億3億左右嗎還是更高"},{"start":238.314,"end":265.069,"text":"到18是3億左右對但未來因為我們的行政法人會自主營運然後他會有受託一些的業務等等的也會降低這個政府的在的支出然後會有自償率的這樣提高是因為現在的這個我們看到我現在盧列的這個行政法人其實他們遇到了一些問題就是他們自籌能力都不好"},{"start":266.645,"end":290.312,"text":"大部分都是靠政府的預算的捐補助來指引或者是說他們可能拿的相關研究計畫也都是從其他的部會機關所取得所以其實成立一個行政法人最重要的問題還是在於說第一個跟現行的組織有沒有疊床加屋第二個他們的自從能力"},{"start":290.912,"end":298.741,"text":"裁員自籌能力如何那你們現在就是看起來海洋科技營運中心為了他們可以從哪裡可以自主裁員自籌裁員從哪些"},{"start":302.815,"end":326.09,"text":"現在目前我們國海院的委辦計畫裡面也都是委託給一些外面的單位或學校來去執行這樣子的一個計畫那未來如果行政法人能夠順利成立的話當然國海院本身的一個義務就是要做全海域的調查那這些的一個經費裡面事實上我們就可以依照行政程序法裡面的行政委託來委託這個行政法人來做這樣子的一個執行這是第一個"},{"start":326.63,"end":347.751,"text":"那第二個我們也期待說未來這個整個船舶實驗室如果能夠如期的一個完成的話那未來甚至可以針對這個國內的相關的一個部會的特殊的一個船舶甚至是商業的船舶特殊的商業船舶的一個需求那這部分也是一個輸入來源那未來在更穩定的一個發展之下我們希望說也能夠來去接受這個國外的一個所謂的船舶的一個委託"},{"start":348.655,"end":375.528,"text":"是 如果說聽你們這樣講的話看起來就是未來海洋科技營運中心的主要的這個自籌來源又還是回到由海洋研究院這裡來支應但是海洋研究院的預算也是有一定他給了這個海洋科技營運中心之後可能要補助給其他學校機關團體的經費就又沒有了所以我的想法是說其實你海洋科技營運中心應該要有個很清楚的未來的自籌比例"},{"start":376.408,"end":399.739,"text":"至少差不多一半以上他未來可以透過自籌裁員來支應否則的話我覺得這也是增加政府的負擔不會全就是由國海院這邊直接全部由他那邊轉因為我們將來受託包括那個船母實驗有商船啦一般性的一些船舶啦那這些都是他的收入來源那我們會朝委員所期許的我們可以至少可以超過一半這樣子的一個自籌"},{"start":400.919,"end":429.178,"text":"我希望說這個之後你們可以再提供一個比較清楚的未來五年這個假設海洋科技營運中心成立之後它的自籌比例的規劃以及它的自籌裁員的管道是如何因為這個我們看到過去的例子這些行政法人其實他們成立之後後來都面臨到就營運上面的困難那我不希望說之後成立了海洋科技營運中心又重蹈覆轍"},{"start":431.179,"end":434.683,"text":"自己生存下來的能力還要拖垮政府的負擔"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":532,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時51分）謝謝主席。有請吳副主委。"],["主席：有請吳副主委。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：今天大家很關心的就是，未來海委會底下是不是有必要設置國家海洋科技營運中心，因為這看起來是在民進黨政府執政的任期內，又多增加行政法人。我們先來看，民進黨政府這些年其實已經設置了蠻多的行政法人，從107年以來，陸陸續續設置了大概有七、八個行政法人。其實我們知道設置行政法人有一個很大的問題，應該說外界會質疑設置行政法人，是不是有意要規避政府的監督？就這個部分，你怎麼看？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：未來還是海委會來監督，不會有規避的問題。就海委會來講，我們設置這個行政法人，因為船模實驗室跟基礎資料調查船需要進用非常高度專業的這些人才，包括未來運作上的彈性、效能等等，所以評估之後，我們認為確實有設立行政法人這樣的必要。"],["翁委員曉玲：但是你們之前才設立了國家海洋研究院，我們可以看到兩邊的業務範圍其實有相當程度的重疊，難道沒有辦法在國家海洋研究院底下，另外增設職缺，可以透過約聘人員等等，讓它更為彈性，就不需要在政府既有已經相當繁複的組織架構底下，又再多增設海洋科技營運中心？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：我們當初有跟院裡請增相關人員，因為有上百位人員，包括這些非常專業的人才，很難用公務員高考考試的方式來聘用，所以院裡也請我們來思考要不要設立行政法人。事實上國海院跟這個營運中心的業務是有區隔的，不會重疊，特別是營運中心將來對於船模實驗室的營運，還有調查船的管理、維運等等，這是它主要的功能。"],["翁委員曉玲：也就是只是為了調查船、船模實驗室，有沒有必要特別再額外增設機構來做這方面的營運？更何況我們知道，現在我沒有看到你們對於要成立海洋科技營運中心，預估未來會有多少的經費規模。你們的預算規模是多少？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：人員的部分，國海院目前只有78員，要增加事實上非常困難，然後經費的部分……"],["翁委員曉玲：我是說海洋科技營運中心，你們預估未來要花政府多少錢？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：經費的部分我們從115年開始，預估115年下半年還需要大概6,000萬左右的經費，然後116年、117年、118年估算差不多3億左右的經費。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以未來大概就是3億成立海洋……"],["吳副主任委員美紅：對，就是後三年，116年到118年。"],["翁委員曉玲：我的意思是說，你們這裡接下來如果要成立國家海洋科技營運中心的話，每年大概預算就是差不多3億左右嗎？還是更高？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：到118年是3億左右，但未來因為我們的行政法人會自主營運，它會受託一些業務等等，也會降低政府的支出，然後自償率會提高。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，因為我們看到我現在臚列的行政法人，其實他們遇到一些問題就是自籌能力都不好，大部分都是靠政府預算的捐補助來支應，或者是他們的相關研究計畫也可能都是從其他的部會機關取得。所以其實成立一個行政法人最重要的問題還是在於，第一個，跟現行的組織有沒有疊床架屋；第二個，他們的財源自籌能力如何。海洋科技營運中心未來可以從哪裡自籌財源？從哪些地方可以自籌財源？"],["陳院長璋玲：現在的初步規劃，事實上目前我們國海院的委辦計畫裡面也都是委託給外面的單位或學校去執行這樣的計畫，未來如果行政法人能夠順利成立的話，當然國海院本身的義務就是要做全海域的調查，這些經費裡面，事實上我們就可以依照行政程序法裡面的行政委託，委託行政法人做這樣的執行，這是第一個。","第二個。我們也期待未來整個船模實驗室如果能夠如期完成的話，未來甚至可以針對國內相關部會的特殊船舶，甚至是商業船舶，即特殊商業船舶的需求，這部分也是一個收入來源。未來在更穩定的發展之下，我們希望也能夠來接受國外船模的委託。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，如果聽你們這樣講的話，看起來未來海洋科技營運中心主要的自籌來源還是回到由海洋研究院這裡來支應，但是海洋研究院的預算也是有一定，它給了海洋科技營運中心之後，可能要補助給其他學校、機關團體的經費就又沒有了。所以我的想法是，其實海洋科技營運中心未來應該要有一個很清楚的自籌比例，至少差不多要一半以上，它未來可以透過自籌財源來支應，否則的話，我覺得這也是增加政府的負擔。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：不會直接全部由國海院那邊轉，因為我們將來受託包括船模實驗有商船、一般性的船舶，這些都是它的收入來源，我們會朝委員所期許的，至少可以超過一半自籌。"],["翁委員曉玲：我希望之後你們可以再提供比較清楚的資料，說明未來五年假設海洋科技營運中心成立之後，它的自籌比例規劃以及它的自籌財源管道是如何。我們看到過去的例子，其實這些行政法人成立之後，後來都面臨營運上的困難。我不希望之後成立了海洋科技營運中心又重蹈覆轍，不僅沒有自己生存下來的能力，還要拖垮政府的負擔，以上。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：再提供資料給委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：希望你們一個月之內給我提供報告。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：好，謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員。","接下來有請牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":318,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","蘇巧慧","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","麥玉珍","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","林倩綺","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","王義川","羅智強","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143901_00011"}}}