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{\"word\": \"陀\", \"start\": 948.85, \"end\": 949.23, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"軒\"}, {\"word\": \"吉\", \"start\": 949.23, \"end\": 949.43, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 949.43, \"end\": 949.45, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,347 --> 00:00:29,864\n謝謝主席,有請彭部長請彭部長部長,美國加大越大,排在也是全球第二大所以美國的一舉一動都會衝擊到全球各國的經濟政策的發展這不爭的事實,就會比這次政府調高關稅\n\n2\n00:00:31,385 --> 00:00:55,579\n那引發各國的這樣的一連串的我稱作化學反應然後也讓各界開始擔憂貴重一道全球減碳禁營的這樣的一個腳步但是我是發現本部長在媒體上的發言都表現得相當樂觀的態度認為減碳上與美國有非常大的合作空間那部長可以看\n\n3\n00:00:56,331 --> 00:01:06,876\n你的說法在同影片的1月22還有3月31的報導你大致上歸納兩點第一個就是全球減碳的趨勢不可擋然後台灣將積極強化與美國合作\n\n4\n00:01:11,710 --> 00:01:29,892\n不是只看川普要轉彎的,不用做這個減碳,而是要聚焦如何加大與美國的合作力道,做更有效的對接,沒有錯嗎?這不想講的齁?那剛剛之前講的那個河流的事情有斷章取義,這部分應該是沒有啦,對不對?\n\n5\n00:01:31,514 --> 00:01:42,969\n我不很對部長的樂觀但是這個前提還是必須要審慎才能夠樂觀川普在1月20號上任之後就當天宣布要退出巴黎協定\n\n6\n00:01:43,715 --> 00:02:12,214\n然後對這個全球減碳的計畫這個一定會造成一定的這樣的一個衝擊但是同時我們也想部長有沒有注意到紐約時報在4月10號有一篇報導據傳美國環境保護署EPA目前正推動大幅削減溫室氣體通報計畫的範圍這將使美國多數大型污染不再需要公開揭露其發展及其導致地球融化的氣體排放量\n\n7\n00:02:13,826 --> 00:02:25,923\n所以這雖然沒有得到美國官方的證實但實際上紐約時報還是一個權益性的一個媒體我想他一定有所本所以我想對川普上面做的作為\n\n8\n00:02:27,304 --> 00:02:45,672\n我們可以發現它是比較維護企業的利益啦但是這種作為對減碳淨零的其實都有巨大的衝擊陳如部長早上的報告當然是氣候受害的國家我想環境部可以樂觀但是相關的因應必須提早\n\n9\n00:02:46,522 --> 00:03:09,381\n要有作為部長可以認同嗎非常認同包委員你剛才說的那個美國環保署他真的是的確在修改各種的空污或是污染的這個標準在放寬當中而且是要以經濟這個讓美國再次偉大為一個前提來發展環保那的確跟我們目前環境部推動的這個台灣的環境保護是有一點點不大一樣\n\n10\n00:03:09,921 --> 00:03:29,489\n但是我們目前來看的話因為這個只是一個短期的現象我們還是很謹慎的來因應各種未來的可能它的變化到底衝擊有多大我們的確是很謹慎的來但是因為近年還是我們還是要樂觀啦還是要努力鼓勵大家去做所以謹慎要審慎這個台灣今年的攤費費率就是剩下5月就馬上進行TEST的申報對不對\n\n11\n00:03:35,031 --> 00:03:58,573\n然後明年5月正式開始繳交114年度的排放量的碳匯目前預定的期準應該都沒有改變嗎?沒有改變這個如果都沒有改變的情況之下美國對等關稅把台灣列為提高到32%的國家雖然現在已經剩下不到90天的談判期那萬一\n\n12\n00:04:01,838 --> 00:04:26,682\n確定過這90天之後確定有某些的碳排產業成為關稅的受債戶環境部這邊有什麼因應的方案嗎包委因為我們現在錢是明年的5月31號才要繳所以我們有一段的時間可以不是馬上的就是可以去做決定所以我們會看例如說90天後現在只剩下八十幾天了那個90天八九十天以後\n\n13\n00:04:27,362 --> 00:04:51,158\n到底實際上受多少影響甚至到明年我們會配合來進行滾動式的調整基本上我的理念還是一樣要讓企業可以活下去活下去然後他們需要一些幫忙我們額外會爭取預算來幫產業的忙就是做企業的後盾嘛對對對所以我們的盡力目標不會走位投入但達成的時間點是我有變化或是要因應企業實際的狀況這個都是要列入考慮\n\n14\n00:04:52,399 --> 00:05:15,415\n或立刻去了解這個排蛋倒露的狀況聽聽他們的意見我們一定做到後盾這個我跟部長的想法是一致因為如果對於關稅受到影響的碳排產業部分大小環境部、政府都是必須要做他們最堅強的後盾但部長你也曾經說過今年環境部的預算遭申請差不多\n\n15\n00:05:17,757 --> 00:05:23,262\n3.54%嘛已經4%了那凍結12.83%那氣候變遷署所當其衝然後可能影響到這個500場的排碳大戶的碳匯自主減量計畫審查進度以及到歐盟協調這個碳匯扣底的比例\n\n16\n00:05:37,595 --> 00:05:43,458\n並會減少台灣參與國際氣候談判的機會。所以環境部氣候署自己也已經靈菩薩過疆了,自身難保了,要怎麼在這次的關稅當產業的後盾,輔導產業順利減淡減輕損失。\n\n17\n00:05:54,184 --> 00:06:11,372\n好,報告委員這個部分我們是補強的方式第一個我們額外在行政院在爭取一些支持啦經費上的一個支持那另外一個呢是我們在經費上也在做一些移環經費行政院也是你不是要過將喔對,等於是我們大家都在很辛苦的來面對啦也希望未來立法院能夠高抬貴手齁\n\n18\n00:06:13,493 --> 00:06:37,169\n還是請部長是不是有相關的一些因應作為兩週內給委員會做一個參考好不好好沒問題那今天有兩個專題嘛第二個就是我們除了要因應這個川普的對等關稅造成碳排淨的衝擊外另外是針對國內校園賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物的管理及防治的經濟作為我對安排這個專題是不僅是本會期的開始\n\n19\n00:06:43,333 --> 00:07:04,570\nCO2的數值的監控儀器發現各大委員會開會時廠長也標到1000ppm以上超過環境庇護的精英值我想同時委員會的很多委員也都一直在關心這個校園、實驗室、場館等室內空瓶的標準目前坦白講\n\n20\n00:07:06,138 --> 00:07:31,312\n看不到一個更積極的管理因應作為這是第一件事情我要直白講的就是說臺灣的室內空氣品質管理法從一百年在立法院立法完成之後實際上是坦平啦實際上是坦平齁這個跟民眾稀疑相關的一部法律齁可以從立法到之間整整十四年完全不用修法也完全沒有檢視自我自在難行\n\n21\n00:07:32,894 --> 00:07:42,999\n這個是真的有很大的問題齁如果這個法律專門完美就不會有以下這一則的新聞發生齁部長看一下這叫什麼LALAPO在哪裡\n\n22\n00:07:55,216 --> 00:08:02,067\n南港你還練得清楚,你不曉得他在哪裡,我還練不清楚過一個拉拉破變成人體\n\n23\n00:08:04,690 --> 00:08:28,055\n空氣清淨機逛到一半眼睛腫痛然後爆過敏性的睫毛炎一票網友也受害那台北市在3月20號的新開幕的一個購物中心四天吸引差不多20萬人潮結果有民眾在網路反映然後有投影片這個甲酸味確實蠻重的在一樓就可以聞到\n\n24\n00:08:29,855 --> 00:08:44,371\n然後樓上味道很重真的不想待很久這是網友的一些說法然後還說我的眼睛超不舒服的大家進去當人體空氣清淨機然後去完過大過敏味道超刺鼻等等等我就不再贅述了賣場回應\n\n25\n00:08:46,573 --> 00:09:02,003\n目前商場仍在部分櫃位正在裝修中但基於施工的規範進行空瓶的數值也符合標準並無超標的實際狀況來發生雖然每個人對氣味感受不同但仍會針對這個設施內的空瓶持續的監測與留心\n\n26\n00:09:08,069 --> 00:09:20,900\n我要表達說民眾一邊逛街,賣場一邊裝修,那民眾管理有甲酸胃、甲醛胃、眼睛痛、味道刺鼻,賣場還說一切合格,逛街民眾的感受度,所以這到底是誰的問題?\n\n27\n00:09:23,439 --> 00:09:42,896\n今天我們有邀請基部跟勞動部一起出席當逛街的民眾有這種問題人家賣場裡面還有貴位的員工嘛對不對還有施工的工人他們就不會受到影響也許員工跟工作的勞工在場裡整整待了一天到底他們的安全誰來把關\n\n28\n00:09:44,278 --> 00:09:49,622\n那我再回到這個數據啦,稀厚度的數值,超過1000ppm,我們委會會,環境部會給我們訊息說,就會產生頭痛啦、視罪啦、反射減退、倦怠等症狀,賣場開幕4天,然後擁護20萬人潮,這個稀厚度到底是誰來把關?\n\n29\n00:10:07,947 --> 00:10:33,936\n包委員這個其實三月的時候因為發生這個問題的時候環保局台北市環保局已經去查了那查驗的結果還沒有正式公開那目前我們來看應該不是甲醛可能有別的這個污染物現在等到他們正式的公佈我們才可以對外說那目前這個Lalapo因為他目前他還沒有依據我們這個室內空瓶法的這個維護管理計畫跟設置專職人員所以其實目前台北市環保局正在處理當中\n\n30\n00:10:34,696 --> 00:10:56,413\n好,部長你答問我,台北市環保局有去稽查嘛,到現在還沒有結論嘛。對,對,對。3月20號開幕了。對,3月21號他就去了。對,3月21號就去了。對,對,對。去了,你知道他去幹嘛?稽查嘛,對不對?去稽查,對,對,對。好,那你看這個過程。3月20開幕,3月21號他就去了,是不是去了啊?3月24要求四次專職人員,然後4月2號,北市環保局請檢測公司採樣。對。\n\n31\n00:11:03,564 --> 00:11:21,813\n你覺得這程序沒有問題?有改進的空間啊?沒有把我跳過去嗎?你跟環保局不是一樣21號20號開幕連續4天21號去採樣然後現在24號要求設置專責人員4月2號北市環保局才請檢測公司去採樣足足過了快兩個禮拜\n\n32\n00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:53,781\n這個程序部長你怎麼看?他到底要採什麼東西?他採的是例如說因為通常我們這個新裝潢部長打我他可能不是什麼假不是什麼什麼已經很難去論斷了啦對不對開幕四天二十萬他到開幕四三月二十號他到四月二號才去採樣\n\n33\n00:11:57,945 --> 00:12:07,910\n這應該要更積極的來管理啦所以這就是有問題嘛對不對好你再看齁環境部訂的CO2監測值是1000ppm我們責任署訂的CO2標準是5000ppm沒有錯吧對吧這兩個人物差為什麼這麼大我來署長我給他叫一遍啦你兩個單獨沒得說就好\n\n34\n00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:37,199\n跟委員報告這個兩個法它適用的環境跟對象不一樣在子彈法的話它適用的是在特定的場域有使用到化學物質所以它在這個或是說剛剛委員提到這個5000ppm這部分當時在\n\n35\n00:12:40,003 --> 00:12:59,555\n跟學者專家在制定的時候是有參考國外的一個標準目前英國跟美國都還是才工作場所裡面還是才5000的PBM我想他的考量是因為在特定的工作場所裡面他可能會產生CO2像是我們在做那個碳酸飲料的工廠裡面他就會有可能他的副產品就是CO2所以他在這個整個當時在設這個標準的時候就採取比較高的一個標準\n\n36\n00:13:03,917 --> 00:13:32,428\n但是我們是在治安法的部分是用這個整個安全衛生的控制措施在避免這個勞工遭受到危害我應該剛剛都有把問題挑出來講了治安署站在治安署的本業裡面去看待他可能是在一個勞動的一個環境裡面但是你看這一個事件裡面他不是有賣場他有勞動的環境到時候你們兩個單位到的時候一個講一千一個講五千\n\n37\n00:13:34,919 --> 00:13:51,510\n你們可以在現場裡面去做這樣的分開去認定嗎?我想也有困難吧?這個是屬於我們這個室內空瓶法的公告的場所,所以他要照我們的一簽。是,但是他也當下還在持續施工。\n\n38\n00:13:52,844 --> 00:14:13,152\n我剛剛有講了啊,它當下在持續的施工啊,這賣場自己講的啊所以我才講說一部法律營業,等於是兩部法律在看同一個場子但是有不一樣的樣態,一個是賣場它現在在營業,另外一個它還持續在加工那這顯然不是很大的吞吐跟矛盾\n\n39\n00:14:15,578 --> 00:14:32,386\n包委員我的認定是只要是室內空瓶它只要是有人潮可以進去的話就應該適用於我們的法令那勞動部這邊應該是屬於這種所謂的工廠型的在施工型的這個基本上只要有我們的民眾去就應該適用我們1000ppm的規定不不不等一下\n\n40\n00:14:34,387 --> 00:14:50,883\n這兩個樣態都持續在進行中兩個樣態在發生中嘛對不對我還是要回歸到一句話就對了啦我覺得我們國內對室內空瓶的這樣的一個要求跟標準跟積極的作為真的是很薄弱我才會講說這部法律躺了14年了通過之後不等不等了\n\n41\n00:14:51,884 --> 00:15:15,479\n這不對啦,這不對啦,好不好?我好像包含這個稽查程序,地方政府是這種稽查的程序,又更不對嘛,對不對?是不是請部長,可以召集,包含我們未來的署長,大家一起共同召開一次,針對室內空瓶的這樣一個秀啊,包含用這樣的這一次的這個事件來看,不管是治安署,不管是我們環境部,到底應該如何來?\n\n42\n00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:39,287\n把這個法可以修得更完備啦好不好因為我們也提出了我們的空污法可能未來會開始研議要來修法那我們也把這個室內空瓶這個法也把它放進去一起來看這個事情一個月內嘛可以吧這個來得及嗎應該來得及啦我們先開會言商好不好先開會言商然後再給委員答覆\n\n43\n00:15:41,260 --> 00:15:49,450\n我還是要求一個時間啦你一個月不行不然最少兩個月嘛可以吧好謝謝好謝謝下一位我們請陀軒吉委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8347\t29864\t謝謝主席,有請彭部長請彭部長部長,美國加大越大,排在也是全球第二大所以美國的一舉一動都會衝擊到全球各國的經濟政策的發展這不爭的事實,就會比這次政府調高關稅\n31385\t55579\t那引發各國的這樣的一連串的我稱作化學反應然後也讓各界開始擔憂貴重一道全球減碳禁營的這樣的一個腳步但是我是發現本部長在媒體上的發言都表現得相當樂觀的態度認為減碳上與美國有非常大的合作空間那部長可以看\n56331\t66876\t你的說法在同影片的1月22還有3月31的報導你大致上歸納兩點第一個就是全球減碳的趨勢不可擋然後台灣將積極強化與美國合作\n71710\t89892\t不是只看川普要轉彎的,不用做這個減碳,而是要聚焦如何加大與美國的合作力道,做更有效的對接,沒有錯嗎?這不想講的齁?那剛剛之前講的那個河流的事情有斷章取義,這部分應該是沒有啦,對不對?\n91514\t102969\t我不很對部長的樂觀但是這個前提還是必須要審慎才能夠樂觀川普在1月20號上任之後就當天宣布要退出巴黎協定\n103715\t132214\t然後對這個全球減碳的計畫這個一定會造成一定的這樣的一個衝擊但是同時我們也想部長有沒有注意到紐約時報在4月10號有一篇報導據傳美國環境保護署EPA目前正推動大幅削減溫室氣體通報計畫的範圍這將使美國多數大型污染不再需要公開揭露其發展及其導致地球融化的氣體排放量\n133826\t145923\t所以這雖然沒有得到美國官方的證實但實際上紐約時報還是一個權益性的一個媒體我想他一定有所本所以我想對川普上面做的作為\n147304\t165672\t我們可以發現它是比較維護企業的利益啦但是這種作為對減碳淨零的其實都有巨大的衝擊陳如部長早上的報告當然是氣候受害的國家我想環境部可以樂觀但是相關的因應必須提早\n166522\t189381\t要有作為 部長可以認同嗎非常認同 包委員你剛才說的那個美國環保署他真的是的確在修改各種的空污或是污染的這個標準在放寬當中而且是要以經濟這個讓美國再次偉大為一個前提來發展環保那的確跟我們目前環境部推動的這個台灣的環境保護是有一點點不大一樣\n189921\t209489\t但是我們目前來看的話因為這個只是一個短期的現象我們還是很謹慎的來因應各種未來的可能它的變化到底衝擊有多大我們的確是很謹慎的來但是因為近年還是我們還是要樂觀啦還是要努力鼓勵大家去做所以謹慎要審慎這個台灣今年的攤費費率就是剩下5月就馬上進行TEST的申報對不對\n215031\t238573\t然後明年5月正式開始繳交114年度的排放量的碳匯目前預定的期準應該都沒有改變嗎?沒有改變這個如果都沒有改變的情況之下美國對等關稅把台灣列為提高到32%的國家雖然現在已經剩下不到90天的談判期那萬一\n241838\t266682\t確定過這90天之後確定有某些的碳排產業成為關稅的受債戶環境部這邊有什麼因應的方案嗎包委因為我們現在錢是明年的5月31號才要繳所以我們有一段的時間可以不是馬上的就是可以去做決定所以我們會看例如說90天後現在只剩下八十幾天了那個90天八九十天以後\n267362\t291158\t到底實際上受多少影響甚至到明年我們會配合來進行滾動式的調整基本上我的理念還是一樣要讓企業可以活下去活下去然後他們需要一些幫忙我們額外會爭取預算來幫產業的忙就是做企業的後盾嘛對對對所以我們的盡力目標不會走位投入但達成的時間點是我有變化或是要因應企業實際的狀況這個都是要列入考慮\n292399\t315415\t或立刻去了解這個排蛋倒露的狀況聽聽他們的意見我們一定做到後盾這個我跟部長的想法是一致因為如果對於關稅受到影響的碳排產業部分大小環境部、政府都是必須要做他們最堅強的後盾但部長你也曾經說過今年環境部的預算遭申請差不多\n317757\t323262\t3.54%嘛 已經4%了那凍結12.83%那氣候變遷署所當其衝然後可能影響到這個500場的排碳大戶的碳匯自主減量計畫審查進度以及到歐盟協調這個碳匯扣底的比例\n337595\t343458\t並會減少台灣參與國際氣候談判的機會。所以環境部氣候署自己也已經靈菩薩過疆了,自身難保了,要怎麼在這次的關稅當產業的後盾,輔導產業順利減淡減輕損失。\n354184\t371372\t好,報告委員這個部分我們是補強的方式第一個我們額外在行政院在爭取一些支持啦經費上的一個支持那另外一個呢是我們在經費上也在做一些移環經費行政院也是你不是要過將喔對,等於是我們大家都在很辛苦的來面對啦也希望未來立法院能夠高抬貴手齁\n373493\t397169\t還是請部長是不是有相關的一些因應作為兩週內給委員會做一個參考好不好好沒問題那今天有兩個專題嘛第二個就是我們除了要因應這個川普的對等關稅造成碳排淨的衝擊外另外是針對國內校園賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物的管理及防治的經濟作為我對安排這個專題是不僅是本會期的開始\n403333\t424570\tCO2的數值的監控儀器發現各大委員會開會時廠長也標到1000ppm以上超過環境庇護的精英值我想同時委員會的很多委員也都一直在關心這個校園、實驗室、場館等室內空瓶的標準目前坦白講\n426138\t451312\t看不到一個更積極的管理因應作為這是第一件事情我要直白講的就是說臺灣的室內空氣品質管理法從一百年在立法院立法完成之後實際上是坦平啦實際上是坦平齁這個跟民眾稀疑相關的一部法律齁可以從立法到之間整整十四年完全不用修法也完全沒有檢視自我自在難行\n452894\t462999\t這個是真的有很大的問題齁如果這個法律專門完美就不會有以下這一則的新聞發生齁部長看一下這叫什麼LALAPO在哪裡\n475216\t482067\t南港你還練得清楚,你不曉得他在哪裡,我還練不清楚過一個拉拉破變成人體\n484690\t508055\t空氣清淨機逛到一半眼睛腫痛然後爆過敏性的睫毛炎一票網友也受害那台北市在3月20號的新開幕的一個購物中心四天吸引差不多20萬人潮結果有民眾在網路反映然後有投影片這個甲酸味確實蠻重的在一樓就可以聞到\n509855\t524371\t然後樓上味道很重真的不想待很久這是網友的一些說法然後還說我的眼睛超不舒服的大家進去當人體空氣清淨機然後去完過大過敏味道超刺鼻等等等我就不再贅述了賣場回應\n526573\t542003\t目前商場仍在部分櫃位正在裝修中但基於施工的規範進行空瓶的數值也符合標準並無超標的實際狀況來發生雖然每個人對氣味感受不同但仍會針對這個設施內的空瓶持續的監測與留心\n548069\t560900\t我要表達說民眾一邊逛街,賣場一邊裝修,那民眾管理有甲酸胃、甲醛胃、眼睛痛、味道刺鼻,賣場還說一切合格,逛街民眾的感受度,所以這到底是誰的問題?\n563439\t582896\t今天我們有邀請基部跟勞動部一起出席當逛街的民眾有這種問題人家賣場裡面還有貴位的員工嘛對不對還有施工的工人他們就不會受到影響也許員工跟工作的勞工在場裡整整待了一天到底他們的安全誰來把關\n584278\t589622\t那我再回到這個數據啦,稀厚度的數值,超過1000ppm,我們委會會,環境部會給我們訊息說,就會產生頭痛啦、視罪啦、反射減退、倦怠等症狀,賣場開幕4天,然後擁護20萬人潮,這個稀厚度到底是誰來把關?\n607947\t633936\t包委員這個其實三月的時候因為發生這個問題的時候環保局台北市環保局已經去查了那查驗的結果還沒有正式公開那目前我們來看應該不是甲醛可能有別的這個污染物現在等到他們正式的公佈我們才可以對外說那目前這個Lalapo因為他目前他還沒有依據我們這個室內空瓶法的這個維護管理計畫跟設置專職人員所以其實目前台北市環保局正在處理當中\n634696\t656413\t好,部長你答問我,台北市環保局有去稽查嘛,到現在還沒有結論嘛。對,對,對。3月20號開幕了。對,3月21號他就去了。對,3月21號就去了。對,對,對。去了,你知道他去幹嘛?稽查嘛,對不對?去稽查,對,對,對。好,那你看這個過程。3月20開幕,3月21號他就去了,是不是去了啊?3月24要求四次專職人員,然後4月2號,北市環保局請檢測公司採樣。對。\n663564\t681813\t你覺得這程序沒有問題?有改進的空間啊?沒有把我跳過去嗎?你跟環保局不是一樣21號20號開幕連續4天21號去採樣然後現在24號要求設置專責人員4月2號北市環保局才請檢測公司去採樣足足過了快兩個禮拜\n693559\t713781\t這個程序部長你怎麼看?他到底要採什麼東西?他採的是例如說因為通常我們這個新裝潢部長打我他可能不是什麼假不是什麼什麼已經很難去論斷了啦對不對開幕四天二十萬他到開幕四三月二十號他到四月二號才去採樣\n717945\t727910\t這應該要更積極的來管理啦所以這就是有問題嘛 對不對好 你再看齁 環境部訂的CO2監測值是1000ppm我們責任署訂的CO2標準是5000ppm沒有錯吧 對吧這兩個人物差為什麼這麼大我來 署長我給他叫一遍啦你兩個單獨沒得說就好\n743360\t757199\t跟委員報告這個兩個法它適用的環境跟對象不一樣在子彈法的話它適用的是在特定的場域有使用到化學物質所以它在這個或是說剛剛委員提到這個5000 ppm這部分當時在\n760003\t779555\t跟學者專家在制定的時候是有參考國外的一個標準目前英國跟美國都還是才工作場所裡面還是才5000的PBM我想他的考量是因為在特定的工作場所裡面他可能會產生CO2像是我們在做那個碳酸飲料的工廠裡面他就會有可能他的副產品就是CO2所以他在這個整個當時在設這個標準的時候就採取比較高的一個標準\n783917\t812428\t但是我們是在治安法的部分是用這個整個安全衛生的控制措施在避免這個勞工遭受到危害我應該剛剛都有把問題挑出來講了治安署站在治安署的本業裡面去看待他可能是在一個勞動的一個環境裡面但是你看這一個事件裡面他不是有賣場他有勞動的環境到時候你們兩個單位到的時候一個講一千一個講五千\n814919\t831510\t你們可以在現場裡面去做這樣的分開去認定嗎?我想也有困難吧?這個是屬於我們這個室內空瓶法的公告的場所,所以他要照我們的一簽。是,但是他也當下還在持續施工。\n832844\t853152\t我剛剛有講了啊,它當下在持續的施工啊,這賣場自己講的啊所以我才講說一部法律營業,等於是兩部法律在看同一個場子但是有不一樣的樣態,一個是賣場它現在在營業,另外一個它還持續在加工那這顯然不是很大的吞吐跟矛盾\n855578\t872386\t包委員我的認定是只要是室內空瓶它只要是有人潮可以進去的話就應該適用於我們的法令那勞動部這邊應該是屬於這種所謂的工廠型的在施工型的這個基本上只要有我們的民眾去就應該適用我們1000ppm的規定不不不 等一下\n874387\t890883\t這兩個樣態都持續在進行中兩個樣態在發生中嘛對不對我還是要回歸到一句話就對了啦我覺得我們國內對室內空瓶的這樣的一個要求跟標準跟積極的作為真的是很薄弱我才會講說這部法律躺了14年了通過之後不等不等了\n891884\t915479\t這不對啦,這不對啦,好不好?我好像包含這個稽查程序,地方政府是這種稽查的程序,又更不對嘛,對不對?是不是請部長,可以召集,包含我們未來的署長,大家一起共同召開一次,針對室內空瓶的這樣一個秀啊,包含用這樣的這一次的這個事件來看,不管是治安署,不管是我們環境部,到底應該如何來?\n916400\t939287\t把這個法可以修得更完備啦好不好因為我們也提出了我們的空污法可能未來會開始研議要來修法那我們也把這個室內空瓶這個法也把它放進去一起來看這個事情一個月內嘛可以吧這個來得及嗎應該來得及啦我們先開會言商好不好先開會言商然後再給委員答覆\n941260\t949450\t我還是要求一個時間啦你一個月不行不然最少兩個月嘛可以吧好謝謝好謝謝下一位我們請陀軒吉委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席,有請彭部長請彭部長部長,美國加大越大,排在也是全球第二大所以美國的一舉一動都會衝擊到全球各國的經濟政策的發展這不爭的事實,就會比這次政府調高關稅\n那引發各國的這樣的一連串的我稱作化學反應然後也讓各界開始擔憂貴重一道全球減碳禁營的這樣的一個腳步但是我是發現本部長在媒體上的發言都表現得相當樂觀的態度認為減碳上與美國有非常大的合作空間那部長可以看\n你的說法在同影片的1月22還有3月31的報導你大致上歸納兩點第一個就是全球減碳的趨勢不可擋然後台灣將積極強化與美國合作\n不是只看川普要轉彎的,不用做這個減碳,而是要聚焦如何加大與美國的合作力道,做更有效的對接,沒有錯嗎?這不想講的齁?那剛剛之前講的那個河流的事情有斷章取義,這部分應該是沒有啦,對不對?\n我不很對部長的樂觀但是這個前提還是必須要審慎才能夠樂觀川普在1月20號上任之後就當天宣布要退出巴黎協定\n然後對這個全球減碳的計畫這個一定會造成一定的這樣的一個衝擊但是同時我們也想部長有沒有注意到紐約時報在4月10號有一篇報導據傳美國環境保護署EPA目前正推動大幅削減溫室氣體通報計畫的範圍這將使美國多數大型污染不再需要公開揭露其發展及其導致地球融化的氣體排放量\n所以這雖然沒有得到美國官方的證實但實際上紐約時報還是一個權益性的一個媒體我想他一定有所本所以我想對川普上面做的作為\n我們可以發現它是比較維護企業的利益啦但是這種作為對減碳淨零的其實都有巨大的衝擊陳如部長早上的報告當然是氣候受害的國家我想環境部可以樂觀但是相關的因應必須提早\n要有作為 部長可以認同嗎非常認同 包委員你剛才說的那個美國環保署他真的是的確在修改各種的空污或是污染的這個標準在放寬當中而且是要以經濟這個讓美國再次偉大為一個前提來發展環保那的確跟我們目前環境部推動的這個台灣的環境保護是有一點點不大一樣\n但是我們目前來看的話因為這個只是一個短期的現象我們還是很謹慎的來因應各種未來的可能它的變化到底衝擊有多大我們的確是很謹慎的來但是因為近年還是我們還是要樂觀啦還是要努力鼓勵大家去做所以謹慎要審慎這個台灣今年的攤費費率就是剩下5月就馬上進行TEST的申報對不對\n然後明年5月正式開始繳交114年度的排放量的碳匯目前預定的期準應該都沒有改變嗎?沒有改變這個如果都沒有改變的情況之下美國對等關稅把台灣列為提高到32%的國家雖然現在已經剩下不到90天的談判期那萬一\n確定過這90天之後確定有某些的碳排產業成為關稅的受債戶環境部這邊有什麼因應的方案嗎包委因為我們現在錢是明年的5月31號才要繳所以我們有一段的時間可以不是馬上的就是可以去做決定所以我們會看例如說90天後現在只剩下八十幾天了那個90天八九十天以後\n到底實際上受多少影響甚至到明年我們會配合來進行滾動式的調整基本上我的理念還是一樣要讓企業可以活下去活下去然後他們需要一些幫忙我們額外會爭取預算來幫產業的忙就是做企業的後盾嘛對對對所以我們的盡力目標不會走位投入但達成的時間點是我有變化或是要因應企業實際的狀況這個都是要列入考慮\n或立刻去了解這個排蛋倒露的狀況聽聽他們的意見我們一定做到後盾這個我跟部長的想法是一致因為如果對於關稅受到影響的碳排產業部分大小環境部、政府都是必須要做他們最堅強的後盾但部長你也曾經說過今年環境部的預算遭申請差不多\n3.54%嘛 已經4%了那凍結12.83%那氣候變遷署所當其衝然後可能影響到這個500場的排碳大戶的碳匯自主減量計畫審查進度以及到歐盟協調這個碳匯扣底的比例\n並會減少台灣參與國際氣候談判的機會。所以環境部氣候署自己也已經靈菩薩過疆了,自身難保了,要怎麼在這次的關稅當產業的後盾,輔導產業順利減淡減輕損失。\n好,報告委員這個部分我們是補強的方式第一個我們額外在行政院在爭取一些支持啦經費上的一個支持那另外一個呢是我們在經費上也在做一些移環經費行政院也是你不是要過將喔對,等於是我們大家都在很辛苦的來面對啦也希望未來立法院能夠高抬貴手齁\n還是請部長是不是有相關的一些因應作為兩週內給委員會做一個參考好不好好沒問題那今天有兩個專題嘛第二個就是我們除了要因應這個川普的對等關稅造成碳排淨的衝擊外另外是針對國內校園賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物的管理及防治的經濟作為我對安排這個專題是不僅是本會期的開始\nCO2的數值的監控儀器發現各大委員會開會時廠長也標到1000ppm以上超過環境庇護的精英值我想同時委員會的很多委員也都一直在關心這個校園、實驗室、場館等室內空瓶的標準目前坦白講\n看不到一個更積極的管理因應作為這是第一件事情我要直白講的就是說臺灣的室內空氣品質管理法從一百年在立法院立法完成之後實際上是坦平啦實際上是坦平齁這個跟民眾稀疑相關的一部法律齁可以從立法到之間整整十四年完全不用修法也完全沒有檢視自我自在難行\n這個是真的有很大的問題齁如果這個法律專門完美就不會有以下這一則的新聞發生齁部長看一下這叫什麼LALAPO在哪裡\n南港你還練得清楚,你不曉得他在哪裡,我還練不清楚過一個拉拉破變成人體\n空氣清淨機逛到一半眼睛腫痛然後爆過敏性的睫毛炎一票網友也受害那台北市在3月20號的新開幕的一個購物中心四天吸引差不多20萬人潮結果有民眾在網路反映然後有投影片這個甲酸味確實蠻重的在一樓就可以聞到\n然後樓上味道很重真的不想待很久這是網友的一些說法然後還說我的眼睛超不舒服的大家進去當人體空氣清淨機然後去完過大過敏味道超刺鼻等等等我就不再贅述了賣場回應\n目前商場仍在部分櫃位正在裝修中但基於施工的規範進行空瓶的數值也符合標準並無超標的實際狀況來發生雖然每個人對氣味感受不同但仍會針對這個設施內的空瓶持續的監測與留心\n我要表達說民眾一邊逛街,賣場一邊裝修,那民眾管理有甲酸胃、甲醛胃、眼睛痛、味道刺鼻,賣場還說一切合格,逛街民眾的感受度,所以這到底是誰的問題?\n今天我們有邀請基部跟勞動部一起出席當逛街的民眾有這種問題人家賣場裡面還有貴位的員工嘛對不對還有施工的工人他們就不會受到影響也許員工跟工作的勞工在場裡整整待了一天到底他們的安全誰來把關\n那我再回到這個數據啦,稀厚度的數值,超過1000ppm,我們委會會,環境部會給我們訊息說,就會產生頭痛啦、視罪啦、反射減退、倦怠等症狀,賣場開幕4天,然後擁護20萬人潮,這個稀厚度到底是誰來把關?\n包委員這個其實三月的時候因為發生這個問題的時候環保局台北市環保局已經去查了那查驗的結果還沒有正式公開那目前我們來看應該不是甲醛可能有別的這個污染物現在等到他們正式的公佈我們才可以對外說那目前這個Lalapo因為他目前他還沒有依據我們這個室內空瓶法的這個維護管理計畫跟設置專職人員所以其實目前台北市環保局正在處理當中\n好,部長你答問我,台北市環保局有去稽查嘛,到現在還沒有結論嘛。對,對,對。3月20號開幕了。對,3月21號他就去了。對,3月21號就去了。對,對,對。去了,你知道他去幹嘛?稽查嘛,對不對?去稽查,對,對,對。好,那你看這個過程。3月20開幕,3月21號他就去了,是不是去了啊?3月24要求四次專職人員,然後4月2號,北市環保局請檢測公司採樣。對。\n你覺得這程序沒有問題?有改進的空間啊?沒有把我跳過去嗎?你跟環保局不是一樣21號20號開幕連續4天21號去採樣然後現在24號要求設置專責人員4月2號北市環保局才請檢測公司去採樣足足過了快兩個禮拜\n這個程序部長你怎麼看?他到底要採什麼東西?他採的是例如說因為通常我們這個新裝潢部長打我他可能不是什麼假不是什麼什麼已經很難去論斷了啦對不對開幕四天二十萬他到開幕四三月二十號他到四月二號才去採樣\n這應該要更積極的來管理啦所以這就是有問題嘛 對不對好 你再看齁 環境部訂的CO2監測值是1000ppm我們責任署訂的CO2標準是5000ppm沒有錯吧 對吧這兩個人物差為什麼這麼大我來 署長我給他叫一遍啦你兩個單獨沒得說就好\n跟委員報告這個兩個法它適用的環境跟對象不一樣在子彈法的話它適用的是在特定的場域有使用到化學物質所以它在這個或是說剛剛委員提到這個5000 ppm這部分當時在\n跟學者專家在制定的時候是有參考國外的一個標準目前英國跟美國都還是才工作場所裡面還是才5000的PBM我想他的考量是因為在特定的工作場所裡面他可能會產生CO2像是我們在做那個碳酸飲料的工廠裡面他就會有可能他的副產品就是CO2所以他在這個整個當時在設這個標準的時候就採取比較高的一個標準\n但是我們是在治安法的部分是用這個整個安全衛生的控制措施在避免這個勞工遭受到危害我應該剛剛都有把問題挑出來講了治安署站在治安署的本業裡面去看待他可能是在一個勞動的一個環境裡面但是你看這一個事件裡面他不是有賣場他有勞動的環境到時候你們兩個單位到的時候一個講一千一個講五千\n你們可以在現場裡面去做這樣的分開去認定嗎?我想也有困難吧?這個是屬於我們這個室內空瓶法的公告的場所,所以他要照我們的一簽。是,但是他也當下還在持續施工。\n我剛剛有講了啊,它當下在持續的施工啊,這賣場自己講的啊所以我才講說一部法律營業,等於是兩部法律在看同一個場子但是有不一樣的樣態,一個是賣場它現在在營業,另外一個它還持續在加工那這顯然不是很大的吞吐跟矛盾\n包委員我的認定是只要是室內空瓶它只要是有人潮可以進去的話就應該適用於我們的法令那勞動部這邊應該是屬於這種所謂的工廠型的在施工型的這個基本上只要有我們的民眾去就應該適用我們1000ppm的規定不不不 等一下\n這兩個樣態都持續在進行中兩個樣態在發生中嘛對不對我還是要回歸到一句話就對了啦我覺得我們國內對室內空瓶的這樣的一個要求跟標準跟積極的作為真的是很薄弱我才會講說這部法律躺了14年了通過之後不等不等了\n這不對啦,這不對啦,好不好?我好像包含這個稽查程序,地方政府是這種稽查的程序,又更不對嘛,對不對?是不是請部長,可以召集,包含我們未來的署長,大家一起共同召開一次,針對室內空瓶的這樣一個秀啊,包含用這樣的這一次的這個事件來看,不管是治安署,不管是我們環境部,到底應該如何來?\n把這個法可以修得更完備啦好不好因為我們也提出了我們的空污法可能未來會開始研議要來修法那我們也把這個室內空瓶這個法也把它放進去一起來看這個事情一個月內嘛可以吧這個來得及嗎應該來得及啦我們先開會言商好不好先開會言商然後再給委員答覆\n我還是要求一個時間啦你一個月不行不然最少兩個月嘛可以吧好謝謝好謝謝下一位我們請陀軒吉委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.347 --> 00:29.864\n謝謝主席,有請彭部長請彭部長部長,美國加大越大,排在也是全球第二大所以美國的一舉一動都會衝擊到全球各國的經濟政策的發展這不爭的事實,就會比這次政府調高關稅\n\n00:31.385 --> 00:55.579\n那引發各國的這樣的一連串的我稱作化學反應然後也讓各界開始擔憂貴重一道全球減碳禁營的這樣的一個腳步但是我是發現本部長在媒體上的發言都表現得相當樂觀的態度認為減碳上與美國有非常大的合作空間那部長可以看\n\n00:56.331 --> 01:06.876\n你的說法在同影片的1月22還有3月31的報導你大致上歸納兩點第一個就是全球減碳的趨勢不可擋然後台灣將積極強化與美國合作\n\n01:11.710 --> 01:29.892\n不是只看川普要轉彎的,不用做這個減碳,而是要聚焦如何加大與美國的合作力道,做更有效的對接,沒有錯嗎?這不想講的齁?那剛剛之前講的那個河流的事情有斷章取義,這部分應該是沒有啦,對不對?\n\n01:31.514 --> 01:42.969\n我不很對部長的樂觀但是這個前提還是必須要審慎才能夠樂觀川普在1月20號上任之後就當天宣布要退出巴黎協定\n\n01:43.715 --> 02:12.214\n然後對這個全球減碳的計畫這個一定會造成一定的這樣的一個衝擊但是同時我們也想部長有沒有注意到紐約時報在4月10號有一篇報導據傳美國環境保護署EPA目前正推動大幅削減溫室氣體通報計畫的範圍這將使美國多數大型污染不再需要公開揭露其發展及其導致地球融化的氣體排放量\n\n02:13.826 --> 02:25.923\n所以這雖然沒有得到美國官方的證實但實際上紐約時報還是一個權益性的一個媒體我想他一定有所本所以我想對川普上面做的作為\n\n02:27.304 --> 02:45.672\n我們可以發現它是比較維護企業的利益啦但是這種作為對減碳淨零的其實都有巨大的衝擊陳如部長早上的報告當然是氣候受害的國家我想環境部可以樂觀但是相關的因應必須提早\n\n02:46.522 --> 03:09.381\n要有作為部長可以認同嗎非常認同包委員你剛才說的那個美國環保署他真的是的確在修改各種的空污或是污染的這個標準在放寬當中而且是要以經濟這個讓美國再次偉大為一個前提來發展環保那的確跟我們目前環境部推動的這個台灣的環境保護是有一點點不大一樣\n\n03:09.921 --> 03:29.489\n但是我們目前來看的話因為這個只是一個短期的現象我們還是很謹慎的來因應各種未來的可能它的變化到底衝擊有多大我們的確是很謹慎的來但是因為近年還是我們還是要樂觀啦還是要努力鼓勵大家去做所以謹慎要審慎這個台灣今年的攤費費率就是剩下5月就馬上進行TEST的申報對不對\n\n03:35.031 --> 03:58.573\n然後明年5月正式開始繳交114年度的排放量的碳匯目前預定的期準應該都沒有改變嗎?沒有改變這個如果都沒有改變的情況之下美國對等關稅把台灣列為提高到32%的國家雖然現在已經剩下不到90天的談判期那萬一\n\n04:01.838 --> 04:26.682\n確定過這90天之後確定有某些的碳排產業成為關稅的受債戶環境部這邊有什麼因應的方案嗎包委因為我們現在錢是明年的5月31號才要繳所以我們有一段的時間可以不是馬上的就是可以去做決定所以我們會看例如說90天後現在只剩下八十幾天了那個90天八九十天以後\n\n04:27.362 --> 04:51.158\n到底實際上受多少影響甚至到明年我們會配合來進行滾動式的調整基本上我的理念還是一樣要讓企業可以活下去活下去然後他們需要一些幫忙我們額外會爭取預算來幫產業的忙就是做企業的後盾嘛對對對所以我們的盡力目標不會走位投入但達成的時間點是我有變化或是要因應企業實際的狀況這個都是要列入考慮\n\n04:52.399 --> 05:15.415\n或立刻去了解這個排蛋倒露的狀況聽聽他們的意見我們一定做到後盾這個我跟部長的想法是一致因為如果對於關稅受到影響的碳排產業部分大小環境部、政府都是必須要做他們最堅強的後盾但部長你也曾經說過今年環境部的預算遭申請差不多\n\n05:17.757 --> 05:23.262\n3.54%嘛已經4%了那凍結12.83%那氣候變遷署所當其衝然後可能影響到這個500場的排碳大戶的碳匯自主減量計畫審查進度以及到歐盟協調這個碳匯扣底的比例\n\n05:37.595 --> 05:43.458\n並會減少台灣參與國際氣候談判的機會。所以環境部氣候署自己也已經靈菩薩過疆了,自身難保了,要怎麼在這次的關稅當產業的後盾,輔導產業順利減淡減輕損失。\n\n05:54.184 --> 06:11.372\n好,報告委員這個部分我們是補強的方式第一個我們額外在行政院在爭取一些支持啦經費上的一個支持那另外一個呢是我們在經費上也在做一些移環經費行政院也是你不是要過將喔對,等於是我們大家都在很辛苦的來面對啦也希望未來立法院能夠高抬貴手齁\n\n06:13.493 --> 06:37.169\n還是請部長是不是有相關的一些因應作為兩週內給委員會做一個參考好不好好沒問題那今天有兩個專題嘛第二個就是我們除了要因應這個川普的對等關稅造成碳排淨的衝擊外另外是針對國內校園賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物的管理及防治的經濟作為我對安排這個專題是不僅是本會期的開始\n\n06:43.333 --> 07:04.570\nCO2的數值的監控儀器發現各大委員會開會時廠長也標到1000ppm以上超過環境庇護的精英值我想同時委員會的很多委員也都一直在關心這個校園、實驗室、場館等室內空瓶的標準目前坦白講\n\n07:06.138 --> 07:31.312\n看不到一個更積極的管理因應作為這是第一件事情我要直白講的就是說臺灣的室內空氣品質管理法從一百年在立法院立法完成之後實際上是坦平啦實際上是坦平齁這個跟民眾稀疑相關的一部法律齁可以從立法到之間整整十四年完全不用修法也完全沒有檢視自我自在難行\n\n07:32.894 --> 07:42.999\n這個是真的有很大的問題齁如果這個法律專門完美就不會有以下這一則的新聞發生齁部長看一下這叫什麼LALAPO在哪裡\n\n07:55.216 --> 08:02.067\n南港你還練得清楚,你不曉得他在哪裡,我還練不清楚過一個拉拉破變成人體\n\n08:04.690 --> 08:28.055\n空氣清淨機逛到一半眼睛腫痛然後爆過敏性的睫毛炎一票網友也受害那台北市在3月20號的新開幕的一個購物中心四天吸引差不多20萬人潮結果有民眾在網路反映然後有投影片這個甲酸味確實蠻重的在一樓就可以聞到\n\n08:29.855 --> 08:44.371\n然後樓上味道很重真的不想待很久這是網友的一些說法然後還說我的眼睛超不舒服的大家進去當人體空氣清淨機然後去完過大過敏味道超刺鼻等等等我就不再贅述了賣場回應\n\n08:46.573 --> 09:02.003\n目前商場仍在部分櫃位正在裝修中但基於施工的規範進行空瓶的數值也符合標準並無超標的實際狀況來發生雖然每個人對氣味感受不同但仍會針對這個設施內的空瓶持續的監測與留心\n\n09:08.069 --> 09:20.900\n我要表達說民眾一邊逛街,賣場一邊裝修,那民眾管理有甲酸胃、甲醛胃、眼睛痛、味道刺鼻,賣場還說一切合格,逛街民眾的感受度,所以這到底是誰的問題?\n\n09:23.439 --> 09:42.896\n今天我們有邀請基部跟勞動部一起出席當逛街的民眾有這種問題人家賣場裡面還有貴位的員工嘛對不對還有施工的工人他們就不會受到影響也許員工跟工作的勞工在場裡整整待了一天到底他們的安全誰來把關\n\n09:44.278 --> 09:49.622\n那我再回到這個數據啦,稀厚度的數值,超過1000ppm,我們委會會,環境部會給我們訊息說,就會產生頭痛啦、視罪啦、反射減退、倦怠等症狀,賣場開幕4天,然後擁護20萬人潮,這個稀厚度到底是誰來把關?\n\n10:07.947 --> 10:33.936\n包委員這個其實三月的時候因為發生這個問題的時候環保局台北市環保局已經去查了那查驗的結果還沒有正式公開那目前我們來看應該不是甲醛可能有別的這個污染物現在等到他們正式的公佈我們才可以對外說那目前這個Lalapo因為他目前他還沒有依據我們這個室內空瓶法的這個維護管理計畫跟設置專職人員所以其實目前台北市環保局正在處理當中\n\n10:34.696 --> 10:56.413\n好,部長你答問我,台北市環保局有去稽查嘛,到現在還沒有結論嘛。對,對,對。3月20號開幕了。對,3月21號他就去了。對,3月21號就去了。對,對,對。去了,你知道他去幹嘛?稽查嘛,對不對?去稽查,對,對,對。好,那你看這個過程。3月20開幕,3月21號他就去了,是不是去了啊?3月24要求四次專職人員,然後4月2號,北市環保局請檢測公司採樣。對。\n\n11:03.564 --> 11:21.813\n你覺得這程序沒有問題?有改進的空間啊?沒有把我跳過去嗎?你跟環保局不是一樣21號20號開幕連續4天21號去採樣然後現在24號要求設置專責人員4月2號北市環保局才請檢測公司去採樣足足過了快兩個禮拜\n\n11:33.559 --> 11:53.781\n這個程序部長你怎麼看?他到底要採什麼東西?他採的是例如說因為通常我們這個新裝潢部長打我他可能不是什麼假不是什麼什麼已經很難去論斷了啦對不對開幕四天二十萬他到開幕四三月二十號他到四月二號才去採樣\n\n11:57.945 --> 12:07.910\n這應該要更積極的來管理啦所以這就是有問題嘛對不對好你再看齁環境部訂的CO2監測值是1000ppm我們責任署訂的CO2標準是5000ppm沒有錯吧對吧這兩個人物差為什麼這麼大我來署長我給他叫一遍啦你兩個單獨沒得說就好\n\n12:23.360 --> 12:37.199\n跟委員報告這個兩個法它適用的環境跟對象不一樣在子彈法的話它適用的是在特定的場域有使用到化學物質所以它在這個或是說剛剛委員提到這個5000ppm這部分當時在\n\n12:40.003 --> 12:59.555\n跟學者專家在制定的時候是有參考國外的一個標準目前英國跟美國都還是才工作場所裡面還是才5000的PBM我想他的考量是因為在特定的工作場所裡面他可能會產生CO2像是我們在做那個碳酸飲料的工廠裡面他就會有可能他的副產品就是CO2所以他在這個整個當時在設這個標準的時候就採取比較高的一個標準\n\n13:03.917 --> 13:32.428\n但是我們是在治安法的部分是用這個整個安全衛生的控制措施在避免這個勞工遭受到危害我應該剛剛都有把問題挑出來講了治安署站在治安署的本業裡面去看待他可能是在一個勞動的一個環境裡面但是你看這一個事件裡面他不是有賣場他有勞動的環境到時候你們兩個單位到的時候一個講一千一個講五千\n\n13:34.919 --> 13:51.510\n你們可以在現場裡面去做這樣的分開去認定嗎?我想也有困難吧?這個是屬於我們這個室內空瓶法的公告的場所,所以他要照我們的一簽。是,但是他也當下還在持續施工。\n\n13:52.844 --> 14:13.152\n我剛剛有講了啊,它當下在持續的施工啊,這賣場自己講的啊所以我才講說一部法律營業,等於是兩部法律在看同一個場子但是有不一樣的樣態,一個是賣場它現在在營業,另外一個它還持續在加工那這顯然不是很大的吞吐跟矛盾\n\n14:15.578 --> 14:32.386\n包委員我的認定是只要是室內空瓶它只要是有人潮可以進去的話就應該適用於我們的法令那勞動部這邊應該是屬於這種所謂的工廠型的在施工型的這個基本上只要有我們的民眾去就應該適用我們1000ppm的規定不不不等一下\n\n14:34.387 --> 14:50.883\n這兩個樣態都持續在進行中兩個樣態在發生中嘛對不對我還是要回歸到一句話就對了啦我覺得我們國內對室內空瓶的這樣的一個要求跟標準跟積極的作為真的是很薄弱我才會講說這部法律躺了14年了通過之後不等不等了\n\n14:51.884 --> 15:15.479\n這不對啦,這不對啦,好不好?我好像包含這個稽查程序,地方政府是這種稽查的程序,又更不對嘛,對不對?是不是請部長,可以召集,包含我們未來的署長,大家一起共同召開一次,針對室內空瓶的這樣一個秀啊,包含用這樣的這一次的這個事件來看,不管是治安署,不管是我們環境部,到底應該如何來?\n\n15:16.400 --> 15:39.287\n把這個法可以修得更完備啦好不好因為我們也提出了我們的空污法可能未來會開始研議要來修法那我們也把這個室內空瓶這個法也把它放進去一起來看這個事情一個月內嘛可以吧這個來得及嗎應該來得及啦我們先開會言商好不好先開會言商然後再給委員答覆\n\n15:41.260 --> 15:49.450\n我還是要求一個時間啦你一個月不行不然最少兩個月嘛可以吧好謝謝好謝謝下一位我們請陀軒吉委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.347,"end":29.864,"text":"謝謝主席,有請彭部長請彭部長部長,美國加大越大,排在也是全球第二大所以美國的一舉一動都會衝擊到全球各國的經濟政策的發展這不爭的事實,就會比這次政府調高關稅"},{"start":31.385,"end":55.579,"text":"那引發各國的這樣的一連串的我稱作化學反應然後也讓各界開始擔憂貴重一道全球減碳禁營的這樣的一個腳步但是我是發現本部長在媒體上的發言都表現得相當樂觀的態度認為減碳上與美國有非常大的合作空間那部長可以看"},{"start":56.331,"end":66.876,"text":"你的說法在同影片的1月22還有3月31的報導你大致上歸納兩點第一個就是全球減碳的趨勢不可擋然後台灣將積極強化與美國合作"},{"start":71.71,"end":89.892,"text":"不是只看川普要轉彎的,不用做這個減碳,而是要聚焦如何加大與美國的合作力道,做更有效的對接,沒有錯嗎?這不想講的齁?那剛剛之前講的那個河流的事情有斷章取義,這部分應該是沒有啦,對不對?"},{"start":91.514,"end":102.969,"text":"我不很對部長的樂觀但是這個前提還是必須要審慎才能夠樂觀川普在1月20號上任之後就當天宣布要退出巴黎協定"},{"start":103.715,"end":132.214,"text":"然後對這個全球減碳的計畫這個一定會造成一定的這樣的一個衝擊但是同時我們也想部長有沒有注意到紐約時報在4月10號有一篇報導據傳美國環境保護署EPA目前正推動大幅削減溫室氣體通報計畫的範圍這將使美國多數大型污染不再需要公開揭露其發展及其導致地球融化的氣體排放量"},{"start":133.826,"end":145.923,"text":"所以這雖然沒有得到美國官方的證實但實際上紐約時報還是一個權益性的一個媒體我想他一定有所本所以我想對川普上面做的作為"},{"start":147.304,"end":165.672,"text":"我們可以發現它是比較維護企業的利益啦但是這種作為對減碳淨零的其實都有巨大的衝擊陳如部長早上的報告當然是氣候受害的國家我想環境部可以樂觀但是相關的因應必須提早"},{"start":166.522,"end":189.381,"text":"要有作為 部長可以認同嗎非常認同 包委員你剛才說的那個美國環保署他真的是的確在修改各種的空污或是污染的這個標準在放寬當中而且是要以經濟這個讓美國再次偉大為一個前提來發展環保那的確跟我們目前環境部推動的這個台灣的環境保護是有一點點不大一樣"},{"start":189.921,"end":209.489,"text":"但是我們目前來看的話因為這個只是一個短期的現象我們還是很謹慎的來因應各種未來的可能它的變化到底衝擊有多大我們的確是很謹慎的來但是因為近年還是我們還是要樂觀啦還是要努力鼓勵大家去做所以謹慎要審慎這個台灣今年的攤費費率就是剩下5月就馬上進行TEST的申報對不對"},{"start":215.031,"end":238.573,"text":"然後明年5月正式開始繳交114年度的排放量的碳匯目前預定的期準應該都沒有改變嗎?沒有改變這個如果都沒有改變的情況之下美國對等關稅把台灣列為提高到32%的國家雖然現在已經剩下不到90天的談判期那萬一"},{"start":241.838,"end":266.682,"text":"確定過這90天之後確定有某些的碳排產業成為關稅的受債戶環境部這邊有什麼因應的方案嗎包委因為我們現在錢是明年的5月31號才要繳所以我們有一段的時間可以不是馬上的就是可以去做決定所以我們會看例如說90天後現在只剩下八十幾天了那個90天八九十天以後"},{"start":267.362,"end":291.158,"text":"到底實際上受多少影響甚至到明年我們會配合來進行滾動式的調整基本上我的理念還是一樣要讓企業可以活下去活下去然後他們需要一些幫忙我們額外會爭取預算來幫產業的忙就是做企業的後盾嘛對對對所以我們的盡力目標不會走位投入但達成的時間點是我有變化或是要因應企業實際的狀況這個都是要列入考慮"},{"start":292.399,"end":315.415,"text":"或立刻去了解這個排蛋倒露的狀況聽聽他們的意見我們一定做到後盾這個我跟部長的想法是一致因為如果對於關稅受到影響的碳排產業部分大小環境部、政府都是必須要做他們最堅強的後盾但部長你也曾經說過今年環境部的預算遭申請差不多"},{"start":317.757,"end":323.262,"text":"3.54%嘛 已經4%了那凍結12.83%那氣候變遷署所當其衝然後可能影響到這個500場的排碳大戶的碳匯自主減量計畫審查進度以及到歐盟協調這個碳匯扣底的比例"},{"start":337.595,"end":343.458,"text":"並會減少台灣參與國際氣候談判的機會。所以環境部氣候署自己也已經靈菩薩過疆了,自身難保了,要怎麼在這次的關稅當產業的後盾,輔導產業順利減淡減輕損失。"},{"start":354.184,"end":371.372,"text":"好,報告委員這個部分我們是補強的方式第一個我們額外在行政院在爭取一些支持啦經費上的一個支持那另外一個呢是我們在經費上也在做一些移環經費行政院也是你不是要過將喔對,等於是我們大家都在很辛苦的來面對啦也希望未來立法院能夠高抬貴手齁"},{"start":373.493,"end":397.169,"text":"還是請部長是不是有相關的一些因應作為兩週內給委員會做一個參考好不好好沒問題那今天有兩個專題嘛第二個就是我們除了要因應這個川普的對等關稅造成碳排淨的衝擊外另外是針對國內校園賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物的管理及防治的經濟作為我對安排這個專題是不僅是本會期的開始"},{"start":403.333,"end":424.57,"text":"CO2的數值的監控儀器發現各大委員會開會時廠長也標到1000ppm以上超過環境庇護的精英值我想同時委員會的很多委員也都一直在關心這個校園、實驗室、場館等室內空瓶的標準目前坦白講"},{"start":426.138,"end":451.312,"text":"看不到一個更積極的管理因應作為這是第一件事情我要直白講的就是說臺灣的室內空氣品質管理法從一百年在立法院立法完成之後實際上是坦平啦實際上是坦平齁這個跟民眾稀疑相關的一部法律齁可以從立法到之間整整十四年完全不用修法也完全沒有檢視自我自在難行"},{"start":452.894,"end":462.999,"text":"這個是真的有很大的問題齁如果這個法律專門完美就不會有以下這一則的新聞發生齁部長看一下這叫什麼LALAPO在哪裡"},{"start":475.216,"end":482.067,"text":"南港你還練得清楚,你不曉得他在哪裡,我還練不清楚過一個拉拉破變成人體"},{"start":484.69,"end":508.055,"text":"空氣清淨機逛到一半眼睛腫痛然後爆過敏性的睫毛炎一票網友也受害那台北市在3月20號的新開幕的一個購物中心四天吸引差不多20萬人潮結果有民眾在網路反映然後有投影片這個甲酸味確實蠻重的在一樓就可以聞到"},{"start":509.855,"end":524.371,"text":"然後樓上味道很重真的不想待很久這是網友的一些說法然後還說我的眼睛超不舒服的大家進去當人體空氣清淨機然後去完過大過敏味道超刺鼻等等等我就不再贅述了賣場回應"},{"start":526.573,"end":542.003,"text":"目前商場仍在部分櫃位正在裝修中但基於施工的規範進行空瓶的數值也符合標準並無超標的實際狀況來發生雖然每個人對氣味感受不同但仍會針對這個設施內的空瓶持續的監測與留心"},{"start":548.069,"end":560.9,"text":"我要表達說民眾一邊逛街,賣場一邊裝修,那民眾管理有甲酸胃、甲醛胃、眼睛痛、味道刺鼻,賣場還說一切合格,逛街民眾的感受度,所以這到底是誰的問題?"},{"start":563.439,"end":582.896,"text":"今天我們有邀請基部跟勞動部一起出席當逛街的民眾有這種問題人家賣場裡面還有貴位的員工嘛對不對還有施工的工人他們就不會受到影響也許員工跟工作的勞工在場裡整整待了一天到底他們的安全誰來把關"},{"start":584.278,"end":589.622,"text":"那我再回到這個數據啦,稀厚度的數值,超過1000ppm,我們委會會,環境部會給我們訊息說,就會產生頭痛啦、視罪啦、反射減退、倦怠等症狀,賣場開幕4天,然後擁護20萬人潮,這個稀厚度到底是誰來把關?"},{"start":607.947,"end":633.936,"text":"包委員這個其實三月的時候因為發生這個問題的時候環保局台北市環保局已經去查了那查驗的結果還沒有正式公開那目前我們來看應該不是甲醛可能有別的這個污染物現在等到他們正式的公佈我們才可以對外說那目前這個Lalapo因為他目前他還沒有依據我們這個室內空瓶法的這個維護管理計畫跟設置專職人員所以其實目前台北市環保局正在處理當中"},{"start":634.696,"end":656.413,"text":"好,部長你答問我,台北市環保局有去稽查嘛,到現在還沒有結論嘛。對,對,對。3月20號開幕了。對,3月21號他就去了。對,3月21號就去了。對,對,對。去了,你知道他去幹嘛?稽查嘛,對不對?去稽查,對,對,對。好,那你看這個過程。3月20開幕,3月21號他就去了,是不是去了啊?3月24要求四次專職人員,然後4月2號,北市環保局請檢測公司採樣。對。"},{"start":663.564,"end":681.813,"text":"你覺得這程序沒有問題?有改進的空間啊?沒有把我跳過去嗎?你跟環保局不是一樣21號20號開幕連續4天21號去採樣然後現在24號要求設置專責人員4月2號北市環保局才請檢測公司去採樣足足過了快兩個禮拜"},{"start":693.559,"end":713.781,"text":"這個程序部長你怎麼看?他到底要採什麼東西?他採的是例如說因為通常我們這個新裝潢部長打我他可能不是什麼假不是什麼什麼已經很難去論斷了啦對不對開幕四天二十萬他到開幕四三月二十號他到四月二號才去採樣"},{"start":717.945,"end":727.91,"text":"這應該要更積極的來管理啦所以這就是有問題嘛 對不對好 你再看齁 環境部訂的CO2監測值是1000ppm我們責任署訂的CO2標準是5000ppm沒有錯吧 對吧這兩個人物差為什麼這麼大我來 署長我給他叫一遍啦你兩個單獨沒得說就好"},{"start":743.36,"end":757.199,"text":"跟委員報告這個兩個法它適用的環境跟對象不一樣在子彈法的話它適用的是在特定的場域有使用到化學物質所以它在這個或是說剛剛委員提到這個5000 ppm這部分當時在"},{"start":760.003,"end":779.555,"text":"跟學者專家在制定的時候是有參考國外的一個標準目前英國跟美國都還是才工作場所裡面還是才5000的PBM我想他的考量是因為在特定的工作場所裡面他可能會產生CO2像是我們在做那個碳酸飲料的工廠裡面他就會有可能他的副產品就是CO2所以他在這個整個當時在設這個標準的時候就採取比較高的一個標準"},{"start":783.917,"end":812.428,"text":"但是我們是在治安法的部分是用這個整個安全衛生的控制措施在避免這個勞工遭受到危害我應該剛剛都有把問題挑出來講了治安署站在治安署的本業裡面去看待他可能是在一個勞動的一個環境裡面但是你看這一個事件裡面他不是有賣場他有勞動的環境到時候你們兩個單位到的時候一個講一千一個講五千"},{"start":814.919,"end":831.51,"text":"你們可以在現場裡面去做這樣的分開去認定嗎?我想也有困難吧?這個是屬於我們這個室內空瓶法的公告的場所,所以他要照我們的一簽。是,但是他也當下還在持續施工。"},{"start":832.844,"end":853.152,"text":"我剛剛有講了啊,它當下在持續的施工啊,這賣場自己講的啊所以我才講說一部法律營業,等於是兩部法律在看同一個場子但是有不一樣的樣態,一個是賣場它現在在營業,另外一個它還持續在加工那這顯然不是很大的吞吐跟矛盾"},{"start":855.578,"end":872.386,"text":"包委員我的認定是只要是室內空瓶它只要是有人潮可以進去的話就應該適用於我們的法令那勞動部這邊應該是屬於這種所謂的工廠型的在施工型的這個基本上只要有我們的民眾去就應該適用我們1000ppm的規定不不不 等一下"},{"start":874.387,"end":890.883,"text":"這兩個樣態都持續在進行中兩個樣態在發生中嘛對不對我還是要回歸到一句話就對了啦我覺得我們國內對室內空瓶的這樣的一個要求跟標準跟積極的作為真的是很薄弱我才會講說這部法律躺了14年了通過之後不等不等了"},{"start":891.884,"end":915.479,"text":"這不對啦,這不對啦,好不好?我好像包含這個稽查程序,地方政府是這種稽查的程序,又更不對嘛,對不對?是不是請部長,可以召集,包含我們未來的署長,大家一起共同召開一次,針對室內空瓶的這樣一個秀啊,包含用這樣的這一次的這個事件來看,不管是治安署,不管是我們環境部,到底應該如何來?"},{"start":916.4,"end":939.287,"text":"把這個法可以修得更完備啦好不好因為我們也提出了我們的空污法可能未來會開始研議要來修法那我們也把這個室內空瓶這個法也把它放進去一起來看這個事情一個月內嘛可以吧這個來得及嗎應該來得及啦我們先開會言商好不好先開會言商然後再給委員答覆"},{"start":941.26,"end":949.45,"text":"我還是要求一個時間啦你一個月不行不然最少兩個月嘛可以吧好謝謝好謝謝下一位我們請陀軒吉委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":582,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（10時48分）謝謝主席，有請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：劉委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。部長，美國家大業大，排碳也是全球第二大，所以美國的一舉一動都會衝擊到全球各國的經濟與政策的發展，這是不爭的事實，就好比這次川普調高關稅，引發各國這樣一連串的化學反應，也讓各界開始擔憂會衝擊到全球減碳淨零這樣的腳步，但是我發現彭部長在媒體上的發言都表現出相當樂觀的態度，認為減碳上與美國有非常大的合作空間。","部長可以看你的說法，在1月22日還有3月31日的報導，你大致上歸納兩點，第一個就是全球減碳的趨勢不可擋，臺灣將積極強化與美國合作，第二個、不是只看「川普要轉彎了，不用做減碳」，而是要聚焦如何加大與美國的合作力道，做更有效的對接。沒有錯嘛！這是部長講的……"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：剛剛講之前核能的事情是有斷章取義，這個部分應該是沒有，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：我不反對部長的樂觀，但是這個前提還是必須要審慎才能夠樂觀。川普在1月20日上任之後，當天就宣布要退出巴黎協定，這個對全球的減碳計畫一定會造成衝擊，但是我不曉得部長有沒有注意到，紐約時報在4月10日有一篇報導，據傳美國環境保護署（EPA）目前正推動大幅削減溫室氣體通報計畫的範圍，這將使美國多數大型污染不再需要公開揭露其二氧化碳及其導致地球暖化的氣體排放量。這個雖然沒有得到美國官方的證實，但是實際上紐約時報也是一個權威性的媒體，我想它一定有所本。就川普上任之後的作為，我們可以發現他是比較維護企業的利益，但是這種作為對減碳淨零其實有巨大的衝擊。誠如部長早上的報告，臺灣是氣候受害的國家，我想環境部可以樂觀，但是相關的因應必須提早要有作為啊！部長可以認同嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：非常認同，報告委員，你剛才說的美國環保署的確在修改各種空污或是污染的標準，在放寬當中，而且是要以經濟讓美國再次偉大為前提來發展環保，的確跟目前環境部推動的臺灣環境保護是有一點點不大一樣，但是我們目前來看的話，因為這只是一個短期的現象，我們還是很謹慎地來因應各種未來的可能。它的變化到底衝擊有多大，我們的確是很謹慎地來……"],["劉委員建國：好。"],["彭部長啓明：但是淨零我們還是要樂觀，還是要努力鼓勵大家去做。"],["劉委員建國：好啦！所以要謹慎、要審慎。臺灣今年的碳費率正式生效，5月就要馬上進行test的申報，對不對？然後明年5月正式開始繳交114年度排放量的碳費，目前預定的期程應該都沒有改變嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：沒有改變。"],["劉委員建國：OK，好，如果都沒有改變的情況之下，美國對等關稅把臺灣列為提高到32%的國家，現在已經剩下不到90天的談判期，萬一確定了，過了這90天之後，確定有某些的碳排產業成為關稅的受災戶，環境部有什麼因應的方案嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為錢是明年的5月31號才要繳，所以我們有一段的時間可以緩衝，不是馬上就得去決定，所以我們會看譬如90天後，現在只剩下八十幾天了，八、九十天以後到底實際上受多少影響，甚至到明年，我們會配合來進行滾動式的調整。基本上，我的理念還是一樣，要讓企業可以活下去，然後他們需要一些幫忙，我們額外會爭取預算來幫產業的忙。"],["劉委員建國：就是做企業的後盾嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：所以我們的淨零目標不會走回頭路，但達成的時間點是否有變化或是要因應企業實際的狀況，這個都是要列入考慮。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：或立刻去了解排碳大戶的狀況，聽聽他們意見，我們一定做它的後盾。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：我跟部長的想法是一致，對於關稅受到影響的碳排產業不分大小，環境部、政府都是必須要做他們最堅強的後盾。部長也曾經說過，今年環境部的預算遭刪減差不多3.54%嘛！將近4%了，凍結12.83%，氣候變遷署首當其衝，然後可能影響到500場排碳大戶的碳費自主減量計畫審查進度，以及到歐盟協調碳費扣抵的比例，並會減少臺灣參與國際氣候談判的機會。坦白講，環境部氣候署自己也已經泥菩薩過江──自身難保了，要怎麼在這次的關稅中當產業的後盾，輔導產業順利減碳、減輕損失？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個部分我們是補強的方式，第一個，我們額外在行政院再爭取一些支持，經費上的支持。另外一個是我們在經費上也在做一些……"],["劉委員建國：行政院也是泥菩薩過江喔！"],["彭部長啓明：對，等於是大家都很辛苦來面對，也希望未來立法院能夠高抬貴手，能夠……"],["劉委員建國：還是請部長是不是有相關的一些因應作為，兩週內給委員會參考，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題。"],["劉委員建國：可以啦！今天有兩個專題，第二個就是我們除了要因應川普的對等關稅造成碳排淨零的衝擊外，另外是針對國內校園、賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物的管理及防制的精進作為，我特別幫你安排這個專題，不僅是本會期開始各大委員會都裝設了CO2數值的監控儀器，發現各大委員會開會時常常也飆到1,000ppm以上，超過環境部的建議值。同時委員會的很多委員也都一直在關心的校園、實驗室、場館等室內空品的標準，目前坦白講，看不到更積極的管理因應作為啦！這是第一件事情，我要直白講的就是說，臺灣的室內空氣品質管理法，從100年在立法院立法完成之後，實際上是躺平，跟民眾息息相關的一部法律，可以從立法到施行整整14年完全不用修法，也完全沒有檢視是否窒礙難行，這個真的有很大的問題。如果這個法律這麼完美就不會有以下這一則新聞發生，部長看一下，這個叫做什麼？LaLaport……"],["彭部長啓明：LaLaport！"],["劉委員建國：LaLaport！我沒有去過，抱歉，LaLaport在哪裡？"],["彭部長啓明：南港。"],["劉委員建國：OK！你還唸得清楚，也不曉得它在哪裡？我還唸不清楚呢！「逛LaLaport，變成『人體空氣清淨機』，他逛到一半眼睛腫痛，爆過敏性結膜炎，一票網友也受害」。臺北市在3月20號新開幕一個購物中心，4天吸引差不多20萬人潮，結果民眾在網路反映，投影片有提到：「甲醛味確實蠻重的，在一樓就可以聞到」，「樓上味道很重，真的不想待很久」，這是網友的一些說法，然後還有「眼睛超不舒服」、「大家進去當人體空氣清新機」、「去玩到過敏」、「味道超刺鼻」等等，我就不再贅述。賣場的回應是目前商場部分櫃位仍正在裝修中，皆按施工規範進行，空氣品質也符合標準，並無超標的實際狀況發生，雖然每個人對氣味感受不同，但仍會針對設施內的空品持續監測與留心。","我要表達的是，民眾一邊逛街，賣場一邊裝修，民眾反映有甲醛味、眼睛痛、味道刺鼻，賣場還說一切合格。對於逛街民眾的感受度，所以這到底是誰的問題？今天我們有邀經濟部跟勞動部一起出席，當逛街的民眾有這樣的問題，難道賣場裡面、還有櫃位的員工、施工的工人，他們就不會受到影響？尤其員工跟工作的勞工在場域中整整待了一天，到底他們的安全誰來把關？我們再回到這個數據，CO2數值超過1,000ppm，而環境部給我們的訊息是會產生頭痛、嗜睡、反射減退、倦怠等症狀。賣場開幕4天，然後湧入20萬的人潮，CO2到底誰來把關？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實3月發生這個問題的時候，臺北市環保局已經去查了，查驗的結果還沒有正式公開，目前我們來看，應該不是甲醛，可能有別的污染物，現在等到他們正式公布，我們才可以對外說。因為目前LaLaport還沒有依據室內空品法的維護管理計畫設置專責人員，所以其實目前臺北市環保局正在處理當中。"],["劉委員建國：好，部長，你答復我臺北市環保局有去稽查，到現在還沒有結論。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：3月20號開幕了。"],["彭部長啓明：對，3月21號它就去了。"],["劉委員建國：對，3月21號就去了，你知道它去幹嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：去稽查。"],["劉委員建國：好，你看這個過程，3月20號開幕，3月21號它就去了，真的是去了；3月24號要求設置專責人員，然後4月2號北市環保局請檢測公司採樣。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：你覺得這個程序沒有問題？"],["彭部長啓明：有改進的空間啦！真的是……"],["劉委員建國：你跟環保局不是一樣嗎？20號開幕，連續4天，21號去採樣，然後3月24號要求設置專責人員，4月2號北市環保局才請檢測公司去採樣，足足過了快兩個禮拜，這個程序部長怎麼看？它到底要採什麼東西？"],["彭部長啓明：它採的是……例如說，因為通常新裝潢……"],["劉委員建國：所以剛剛部長答復我，它可能不是什麼甲醛或不是什麼的，已經很難去論斷了，對不對？開幕4天有20萬人，開幕是3月20號，它到4月2號才去採樣。"],["彭部長啓明：這應該要更積極地來管理啦！"],["劉委員建國：所以這就是有問題嘛，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：你再看，環境部定的CO2建議值是1,000ppm，職安署定的CO2標準是5,000ppm，沒有錯吧，對嗎？這兩個落差為什麼這麼大？署長，我先叫你「署長」好了，請問你們兩個單位沒辦法講好嗎？"],["林副署長毓堂：跟委員報告，這兩個法適用的環境跟對象不一樣，在職安法的話，它適用的是在特定的場域有使用到化學物質或是剛剛委員提到5,000ppm，這部分當時在跟學者專家制定的時候，是有參考國外的標準，目前英國跟美國在工作場所裡面還是採5,000ppm，我想他的考量是因為在特定的工作場所裡面，它可能會產生CO2，像說我們在做碳酸飲料的工廠裡面，它的副產品就會有可能是CO2，所以當時在設這個標準的時候，就採取比較高的一個標準，但是在職安法的部分是用整個安全衛生的控制措施，避免勞工遭受到危害。"],["劉委員建國：我剛剛應該都有把問題挑出來講了，職安署站在職安署的本業裡面去看待，它可能是在一個勞動的環境裡面，但是你看這一個事件，它不只有賣場，它也有勞動的環境，到時候你們兩個單位一到的時候，一個講1,000ppm，一個講5,000ppm，你們可以在現場分開去做認定嗎？我想也有困難吧？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個是屬於我們室內空品法公告的場所，所以它要照我們的1,000ppm。"],["劉委員建國：是，但是它當下還在持續施工，我剛剛有講了，它當下還在持續施工，這賣場自己講的啊！所以我才想這等於是兩部法律在看同一個場址，但是有不一樣的樣態，一個是賣場，它現在營業；另外一個，它是持續在加工，這顯然不是很大的衝突跟矛盾？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我的認定是只要是室內空品，只要是有人潮可以進去的話，就應該適用於我們的法令，那勞動部這邊應該是屬於這種所謂工廠型的、在施工型，基本上，只要有民眾去，就應該適用我們1,000ppm的規定。"],["劉委員建國：不，部長，當下是這兩個樣態都持續在進行中兩個樣態都在發生中嘛，對不對？我還是要回歸到一句話就對了啦，我覺得我們國內對室內空品的要求跟標準跟積極的作為，真的是很薄弱，我才會講這部法律躺了14年，通過之後卻不能動了，這不對啦！好不好？包含稽查程序，地方政府是這種稽查的程序，又更不對嘛，對不對？是不是請部長可以召集，包括我們未來的署長，大家一起共同召開一次會議，針對室內空品的修法，包含用這一次的事件來看，不管是職安署還是環境部，到底應該如何把這個法修得更完備，好不好？可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我們也提出了空污法可能未來會開始研議要來修法，我們也會把室內空品法放進去，一起來看這個事情。"],["劉委員建國：一個月內可以吧？應該來得及吧？"],["彭部長啓明：我們先開會研商，好不好？先開會研商，然後再給委員答復。"],["劉委員建國：我還是要求一個時間，你一個月不行，不然最少兩個月，可以吧？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位我們請涂權吉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","黃秀芳","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","張啓楷","楊曜","陳瑩","蘇清泉","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":427,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、外交部就「因應美國退出巴黎氣候協定並提出對等關稅，對國內\n產業淨零轉型造成衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、勞動部、教育部、經\n濟部針對「國內校園、賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物管理及防制精進作為」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00007"}}}