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149.707, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 149.707, \"end\": 149.847, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 149.847, \"end\": 149.967, \"score\": 0.473}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 149.967, \"end\": 150.107, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"篡\"}, {\"word\": \"改\", \"start\": 150.107, \"end\": 150.207, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"偽\"}, {\"word\": \"造\", \"start\": 150.207, \"end\": 150.227, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"監\"}, {\"word\": \"測\"}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 150.227, \"end\": 150.247, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 150.247, \"end\": 150.427, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 150.427, \"end\": 150.547, \"score\": 0.648}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 150.547, \"end\": 150.567, \"score\": 0.003}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 150.567, \"end\": 151.248, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"要\", 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\"end\": 183.879, \"score\": 0.637}, {\"word\": \"m\", \"start\": 183.879, \"end\": 183.899, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"i\", \"start\": 183.899, \"end\": 184.099, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"n\", \"start\": 184.099, \"end\": 184.139, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"d\", \"start\": 184.139, \"end\": 184.279, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 184.279, \"end\": 184.299, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 184.299, \"end\": 184.319, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 202.073, \"end\": 204.776, \"text\": \"這個SIMS系統透過DAS的這個系統還要負責收集運算壓縮分類上傳把整個連續監測才能夠送到你們部裡面來\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"S\", \"start\": 202.073, \"end\": 202.093, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"I\", \"start\": 202.093, \"end\": 202.233, \"score\": 0.568}, {\"word\": \"M\", \"start\": 202.233, \"end\": 202.373, \"score\": 0.68}, {\"word\": \"S\", \"start\": 202.373, \"end\": 202.393, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"系\", \"start\": 202.393, \"end\": 202.574, \"score\": 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\"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}]}, {\"start\": 218.67, \"end\": 232.836, \"text\": \"所以這個SIMS的連續自動監測系統即時監控污染數據但是數據不是直接就連線到你這裡來喔它還需要中介系統就是DAS這個系統DAHS就是數據採集和處理系統\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 218.67, \"end\": 218.87, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 218.87, \"end\": 219.891, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"S\", \"start\": 219.891, \"end\": 220.131, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"I\", \"start\": 220.131, \"end\": 220.731, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"M\", \"start\": 220.731, \"end\": 220.931, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"S\", \"start\": 220.931, \"end\": 221.091, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 221.091, \"end\": 221.111, \"score\": 0.01}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 221.111, \"end\": 221.291, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"監\"}, {\"word\": \"測\"}, {\"word\": \"系\", \"start\": 221.291, \"end\": 222.252, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, 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{\"word\": \"系\", \"start\": 232.816, \"end\": 232.836, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"統\"}]}, {\"start\": 238.41, \"end\": 255.901, \"text\": \"如果這個監測的大腦就是大使的系統可以被廠商動手腳或者是本身設計有漏洞那政府接收這些連續監測的數據會失真請問你在後面拍我的是哪一個單位\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 238.41, \"end\": 238.53, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 238.53, \"end\": 239.471, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"監\"}, {\"word\": \"測\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 239.471, \"end\": 239.631, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 239.631, \"end\": 240.171, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"腦\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 240.171, \"end\": 240.311, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 240.311, \"end\": 240.491, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 240.491, \"end\": 240.771, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"使\", \"start\": 240.771, \"end\": 240.952, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 240.952, \"end\": 241.152, \"score\": 0.98}, 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{\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 1590.147, \"end\": 1590.167, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,692 --> 00:00:06,693\n大概2017年我在這裡也質詢過產業界工廠透過SEEMS系統做了空污數據造假\n\n2\n00:00:30,100 --> 00:00:43,585\n那個時候我們就發現其實這些業者他們使用的DHS系統就是DAS系統裡面竟然有即時值的寫入的功能而且不只可以即時的傳輸數據還能夠回頭改掉原始資料庫裡面的資料那我現在講說\n\n3\n00:00:56,025 --> 00:01:17,317\n依照各公司場所應該設置連續自動監測設施就是SIMS系統的這一些固定污染源從製程來看從產業來看大多數都集中在高污染的高風險的產業排放高污染排放高風險\n\n4\n00:01:18,874 --> 00:01:27,360\n我講白了你們所列的這一些資料裡面就是水泥製造業水泥窯然後再來就是鋼鐵冶煉業電糊爐\n\n5\n00:01:32,047 --> 00:01:54,064\n再來是事業廢棄物的焚化爐和一般廢棄物的焚化爐再來是石化產業大家都知道我剛剛所念的石化產業鋼鐵業水泥業焚化爐事業廢棄物焚化爐這些都是大財團大產業大業主\n\n6\n00:01:57,967 --> 00:02:04,811\n然後管制它必須24小時不間斷都要及時監測它的空污排放為什麼因為它高風險高污染可是我們2017年就講了而且廠商在你們設定的DAS系統裡面可以篡改資料2017年我們就講了揭露了台塑的六清廠\n\n7\n00:02:27,265 --> 00:02:32,929\n屢屢發現超標然後一超標就屢屢手動修正然後篡改數據偽造監測數據我們做這個是不是要做什麼如果可以這樣所有的監測數據都可以回頭篡改\n\n8\n00:02:47,426 --> 00:03:01,264\n那我们24小时的监测算什么所以这不是一个小事这是整个连续监测制度连续监测系统的信任的崩解\n\n9\n00:03:02,438 --> 00:03:04,319\n所以我現在是為了怕部長你不知道所以我再remind一下\n\n10\n00:03:22,073 --> 00:03:24,776\n這個SIMS系統透過DAS的這個系統還要負責收集運算壓縮分類上傳把整個連續監測才能夠送到你們部裡面來\n\n11\n00:03:38,670 --> 00:03:52,836\n所以這個SIMS的連續自動監測系統即時監控污染數據但是數據不是直接就連線到你這裡來喔它還需要中介系統就是DAS這個系統DAHS就是數據採集和處理系統\n\n12\n00:03:58,410 --> 00:04:15,901\n如果這個監測的大腦就是大使的系統可以被廠商動手腳或者是本身設計有漏洞那政府接收這些連續監測的數據會失真請問你在後面拍我的是哪一個單位\n\n13\n00:04:17,267 --> 00:04:45,039\n你是誰對啦你是哪個單位時間暫停一下主席我有權宜問題要請教當我在質疑這個質詢這個問題為什麼有人一直問啊請問我只是請教一下我需要了解在座對我們立法院的問政是公開可受公平但我需要知道為什麼有人特別關注這個議題主席請裁示剛才站起來的那一位是記者嗎\n\n14\n00:04:46,776 --> 00:05:08,704\n對啦哪個單位哪個記者哪一報可以告訴我們嗎我們議場裡面也發生過啊游志斌這種事件啊那我想要了解主席請裁示這個權宜問題先處理特別關注我在質詢這個議題的這一個記者是哪個單位的記者叫什麼名字處理處理主席請你裁示啦\n\n15\n00:05:16,147 --> 00:05:31,742\n請問一下是記者嗎我只是想要了解而已哪一個報哪一個傳媒記者叫什麼名字我想要了解你為什麼對於這個議題特別要拍林淑芬沒有私下報告公開在這裡我想要公開了解\n\n16\n00:05:39,571 --> 00:05:50,988\n主席我不希望在這裡佔用大家太多時間但是關係到委員的也有可能是人身安全的問題啊我接下來要打財團啊要就針對鋼鐵業石化業\n\n17\n00:05:55,222 --> 00:06:10,955\n企業費企務這個大財團我就是要針對他們啊是不是可以麻煩報哪一個那個主委這裡面來的每個人是誰你都搞不清楚狀況這樣行嗎立委在這裡問政沒有人身安全的疑慮嗎不好意思各位就在那邊講說但是你是哪來來給他給主席看一下可不可以交給主席看一下\n\n18\n00:06:25,377 --> 00:06:25,798\n台灣時報我為什麼要講這個\n\n19\n00:06:48,533 --> 00:07:01,083\n我們不斷的努力要求跟監督之下你們2009年20年就是109年我從2017年我們揭露了這個弊案發現你們SIMS連續監測系統是造假騙人命的那樣你們終於在2020年在SIMS的管理辦法第31條明定了你們修改的辦法\n\n20\n00:07:16,263 --> 00:07:30,496\n你們的大使系統必須送交中央主管機關認可的第三方審查機構進行測試而且要取得合格的證明文件你們的修改文字如下應經中央主管機關認可的\n\n21\n00:07:32,958 --> 00:07:49,049\n驗證審查機構依規定程序與事項完成系統測試並取得驗證審查合格的文件證明不但如此你們的辦法還要求每年至少一次送第三方查驗機構做複查連續兩年合格的才可以免查否則要重新送審而且這一個修正從114年1月1號正式施行也就是\n\n22\n00:08:01,226 --> 00:08:16,212\n你們從2017年我們揭露2020年才要改而且是拖了8年到今年的1月1號才要施行但是部長你現在你上任的時候你做了什麼你做了什麼好包委\n\n23\n00:08:19,881 --> 00:08:39,676\n你把這一個辦法整條刪除走回頭路經過百年才會改的這百年的時間給你行政部門給你環境部可以有時間慢慢的因應給你八年的緩衝期我們管制石化產業、焚化爐、事業廢棄業鋼鐵業、水泥業\n\n24\n00:08:48,908 --> 00:08:54,411\n然後你們這八年做了什麼八年後你直接說刪除刪除你也稍微解說一下\n\n25\n00:09:02,453 --> 00:09:27,082\n保證你不知道喔會害羞的人到底要做什麼你不知道這重大政策重大變革而且走回頭路而且包庇業者推卸責任我今天很生氣喔我們從2017年搞到2020年才搞好結果你2025年近年幾條辦法的文字全部刪除所有的管制全部刪除你現在是怎樣\n\n26\n00:09:30,083 --> 00:09:31,707\n給你們爭笑還是給你們爭笑?你在玩假的你把連續階段系統還當兒戲\n\n27\n00:09:39,585 --> 00:10:05,386\n保證你講你不知道喔你可以說你不知道這叫政府單位來回答這個細節我待會請我們市長來報告細節不需要報告不是包委員第一個是我對於這種監測造假的是不手軟所以我們前一陣子也重罰了幾家監測造假不要不手軟你不要講這個你告訴我這一條你的政策裁定你基於什麼樣的考量我知道啦我告訴你我們來質詢我來質詢是不是青菜來質詢的\n\n28\n00:10:08,669 --> 00:10:22,549\n林淑媛你之前,如果沒有專業,我今天來跟你講這個,你們用什麼理由把整條辦法刪除,你知道嗎?後天你不知道啦,你夾業務單位回去,我不跟你講,你被下面的人欺騙,欺上瞞下。\n\n29\n00:10:24,412 --> 00:10:39,988\n他們用手把這一個辦法刪除我唸給你聽非常暴力非常的赤裸裸非常直接你們說現在能夠擔任大使審查機構第三方驗證的單位太少了沒有人力來消化這個審查量\n\n30\n00:10:44,893 --> 00:10:49,437\n中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中\n\n31\n00:11:03,050 --> 00:11:13,702\n喔你們這麼聰明聰明到用這個理由然後就把審查制度改掉改成說啊沒關係啦這個DAS系統交給地方環保局去查核就好了當初也是這樣耶\n\n32\n00:11:19,195 --> 00:11:22,957\n二零一七年也是交給地方政府去監討我講比較難聽的台塑六清為例台塑六清地方的建設是需要一個六強申請拜託你來幫我們補助鄉鎮的幾個幾個鄉鎮的台塑六清不可以忘記了一間人說的館長一間人說的議長一間人說的鄉長是這樣\n\n33\n00:11:46,656 --> 00:11:56,766\n你們現在說我們不要再對石化業、不要再對鋼鐵業不要再對事業廢棄物的焚化爐我們的連續監測系統抓到這裡,交給地方政府去監督查核2017年抓到這裡,地方政府都沒有領略包庇地方政府也沒有專頁可以做\n\n34\n00:12:10,410 --> 00:12:30,487\n然後人家不斷的造假所以才找到說環境部願意要第三方審查確保公平專業和不偽造不篡改現在你走回頭路讓地方環保局自己用查核程式驗證這跟你當初\n\n35\n00:12:33,690 --> 00:12:51,585\n把整條辦法刪光的公告的審查機制不一樣天跟地的差別啦差別是天跟地耶好我跟你報告完看理由就是交給地方政府用程式去跑就好了部長你怎麼看\n\n36\n00:12:52,779 --> 00:12:58,869\n你的任內1月1號要施行1月2號把條文都改掉都不用做了整個連續監測系統可以繼續造假沒那麼嚴格\n\n37\n00:13:07,618 --> 00:13:22,492\n這樣空污喔不是用愛發電而已用人民的肺來吸這一些廢氣啦連續監測系統要監測什麼東西因監測的東西各種製程很多包括二氧化硫總還原硫這個\n\n38\n00:13:25,216 --> 00:13:46,924\n氮氧化硫氯化氫氯氧化氮揮發性有機物質排放流率等等這些東西直接排放到空氣當中污染污染外部化環境成本外部化然後然後叫人民去承擔我們也知道對不對你是自己這樣高風險高污染的\n\n39\n00:13:53,891 --> 00:14:17,260\n我們才做24小時連續監測高風險高汙染的你把連續監測的制度系統這樣改掉好不容易國家要認真把關了制度都沒變喔只是曾經發生了篡改因為廠商台塑篡改所以我們才要改善這個\n\n40\n00:14:19,157 --> 00:14:37,267\n監督的系統要確保它是正確不能篡改沒有改變制度只是認真去執行而已現在你現在怎麼樣你是要宣示對圖利石化業者圖利鋼鐵業者圖利失業廢棄物焚化爐的業者圖利水泥窯的業者是嗎\n\n41\n00:14:38,547 --> 00:15:02,235\n博電你說看你現在是在給我們爭笑的嗎報委員那個之前是大使現在其實用資訊系統可以來做處理的這個就是我所了解當時要改的一個原因啦那委員提出的這個要改的原因不是喔你們對外的公法不是喔你們對外的公法不要再胡說八道喔你們到外講法是可以擔任大使審查機構的第三方驗證單位太少了沒有人力消化全部的案量\n\n42\n00:15:06,997 --> 00:15:13,468\n你現在在這裡說跟你對外宣稱的理由不一樣喔今天你不可以在這裡亂講你現在是怎樣1月2號改掉了\n\n43\n00:15:22,230 --> 00:15:45,850\n你知道地方環保局的問題嗎地方環保局的問題有什麼你就要搞地方下放給地方地方有沒有能力有沒有能力保證顯然你都不知道這個事情知識體大災團鬆到要死人民的喜不喜感不要忘了肺癌佔台灣癌症的這個排行榜排名是前三大現在是怎樣\n\n44\n00:15:49,500 --> 00:15:52,421\n不對你現在是用廢來吸空汙嗎用人民的廢來吸財團的空汙嗎現在你自己用人民的廢自己吸空汙嗎財團賺錢賺的死人民生病病的要死是這樣子嗎你改這個改什麼不對的你說給我們聽一下\n\n45\n00:16:17,492 --> 00:16:44,572\n其實這個第一個是當時這個量能在檢測的是給你八年的時間準備還在講量能給你從2020年制定這一條到現在也四五年了還在講量能我是今年改明年就施行嗎不是喔都正早八年啦八年的時間你準備你跟我說量能不足騙笑的全部SIMS監測系統有幾個空污的\n\n46\n00:16:47,355 --> 00:17:04,043\n量能不足專購是幾個倒幾個四百五十個四百五十個五百隻沒栽掉茶葉你現在這樣說我覺得笑話保證還有理由嗎還有理由嗎現在是怎樣栽培都這麼爽空污排放出來成本這麼低\n\n47\n00:17:14,383 --> 00:17:22,848\n超標了連罰金都不繳超標了開罰單而已現在連罰單都可以篡改改改都連罰單都不划了騙笑的這不是裝笑的嗎當時我們揭發數據可以造假還不是你們不是你們去找的是我們揭發的你們包庇的\n\n48\n00:17:42,469 --> 00:17:59,602\n2017年從以前從我連續監督系統到2017年揭發揭露這個弊案以前政府都在包庇我們我們揭發了揭弊了你們還不改還給我們改回來現在是怎樣啦你快說啊保證我很不願意拖時間但是這個問題這麼嚴重我沒有辦法接受\n\n49\n00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:12,725\n人民也沒辦法接受中華婚姻自己的鄉親也沒辦法接受好委員這個我回去再來好好的了解再給委員做一個報告可以嗎我先跟你報告一下地方政府因為你要讓地方政府自己透過這個查核程式去檢驗\n\n50\n00:18:30,051 --> 00:18:44,208\n我現在說一個地方政府把整個大使的查核責任交給城市交給地方政府環保局來做你們說你們會提供查核工具你們提供城市這個工具是什麼\n\n51\n00:18:45,134 --> 00:18:54,302\n那也要有人操作地方環保局人力夠嗎專業夠嗎資料判讀的能力有嗎系統設定錯誤排除一本說明書就可以學會的嗎你們委外的SIMS計畫團隊到各地方環保局去做績效訪查時你們要寫什麼報告\n\n52\n00:19:07,693 --> 00:19:31,448\n你們沒有看你們的限時計畫的監測的團隊去查訪發現各環保局常因人力不足沒有辦法及時掌握公司場所的資料異常仍然高度依賴環境部這裡的警示系統所發出的餘限和斷線通知\n\n53\n00:19:34,919 --> 00:19:40,141\n現在連基本的鈔票問題都靠中央提供給他們才知道就沒人在看啦你們即便開發了異常數據儀表板\n\n54\n00:19:46,496 --> 00:20:07,242\n能夠顯示超標缺漏斷線等異常行為但是你們自己去檢查發現現場地方環保局的人力跟操作的能量仍然是短板即便環保局在第一線還沒有辦法能夠真正及時因應這你們自己去查的時候發現的對你\n\n55\n00:20:11,463 --> 00:20:34,461\n你們設計了一個系統那也體現了你們希望推動數據化管理的決心但是問題是地方環保局沒有專業能力可以跟得上這一些工具的使用你們的這個報告也提到系統的操作需要模擬程式資料比對模組查核案件的管理系統\n\n56\n00:20:35,422 --> 00:20:48,133\n還要能夠比對ModbusTCP協定下的傳輸數據我問你你自己去集合地方環保局就發現都沒人力也沒人也沒專業你現在要再下放這個東西給他們\n\n57\n00:20:56,617 --> 00:21:16,157\n就現有的你們就發現地方環保局常見數據缺漏狀態嘛異常的問題有些地方環保局呢資料的維護仍然停留在上一個城市的版本都沒有update沒有更新欸甚至跟廠商實際設備的資訊不一致欸\n\n58\n00:21:19,204 --> 00:21:24,316\n甚至部分的地方環保局在進行拔除訊號線測試中斷儀器跟測試大使的訊號傳輸查核過程中\n\n59\n00:21:31,107 --> 00:21:51,909\n出現了監測數據異常或監測數據狀態的代碼異常的狀況而且明顯不符合SIMS管理辦法的相關規範這都說明了地方環保局在現場操作上資訊落差沒有解決甚至可能是故意要掩蓋真正的污染的狀況\n\n60\n00:21:53,550 --> 00:22:02,717\n這不是沒發生過喔我已經講過了台塑也不是只有六清喔台塑在南亞在台畫廠都曾經透過大使的軟體產出不實數據大規模造假虛報監測值欺騙政府而下面的人眼睛都看不見電台的人每天都在那裡聽不聽\n\n61\n00:22:22,523 --> 00:22:27,365\n保定你們不是不知道這些案例啊我們都講過了所以你們2020年才修法所以要求大使的系統必須經過驗證結果今天你把它刪除了\n\n62\n00:22:39,298 --> 00:23:06,217\n整個管理的制度又回到業者財團自己裝監測器自己回報數據然後呢地方自行查核六天一天一天一天兩天一天一天一天一天兩天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天\n\n63\n00:23:09,304 --> 00:23:24,607\n環境部要給我也不是給我給全國的人民一個說法作為SIMS連續監測系統制度中最重要的大使的第三方驗證查核機制被你們說三就三你要告訴大家你為什麼走回頭路為什麼走回去包庇業者包庇大財團有利於這些業者\n\n64\n00:23:38,792 --> 00:24:02,091\n可以造假的這一條路上呢為什麼為什麼改革到一半1月1號今年1月1號要施行1月2號就中斷不用再做像話嗎太粗魯了太暴力了1月1號要做1月2號整條辦法刪掉通通都改掉\n\n65\n00:24:03,271 --> 00:24:11,858\n你不覺得這樣太暴力嗎你們不覺得這樣子太赤裸裸的太難看了嗎吃相難看啊包庇的難看啊不對不覺得嗎包委員那個現在是用資訊系統在做處理啊那那個資料的部分也有在封存在處理那現在這個部分這個通通都資訊系統在處理喔有SIMS全部都資訊系統喔你不要說未來是資訊系統過去也是資訊系統\n\n66\n00:24:33,715 --> 00:24:58,506\n不要在這裡用這種文字來呼嚨大家你現在要把改革回來了嗎?改革能夠停滯嗎?還不是改革耶監察制度都沒有改耶只是你的管理漏洞要堵起來耶叫你把你的系統管理的漏洞要堵起來耶你把這個漏洞本來要堵起來的又把它拿掉了荒謬華天下之大雞\n\n67\n00:25:03,010 --> 00:25:13,812\n欺騙人民啊這不是包庇什麼是包庇你現在要怎麼做你說你要回去調查我現在在問你就我所講的這個你難道不覺得這個漏洞應該要堵起來嗎應不應該我回去了解好不好給我一點時間你不覺得應該要這個漏洞絕對不允許嗎你不覺得地方政府其實是沒有能力的\n\n68\n00:25:28,479 --> 00:25:45,245\n我們知道大陸政府啊我們要蓋一條橋大陸我們沒有錢啊大廈你可不可以幫我們補助一下好就是這樣處理的啊你不知道嗎你叫男人手短的業者男人手短的政府真的去感到那個業者可不可能可不可能不然你說說嘛更有可能如果男人手短吃人嘴軟\n\n69\n00:25:57,228 --> 00:26:15,377\n還是要監督什麼?那是爭笑的嘛你們走不進去我也能懷疑何理得懷疑?是得多少好錢啦石化產業大財團鋼鐵業多股票上市櫃公司的大財團失業費債務多肥紅包不知道算多少別再說其他的對不對你們裡面的人拿錢嗎?不會不會?不要講得這麼快\n\n70\n00:26:25,803 --> 00:26:30,167\n這些官僚2017年都還在都是他們一路包庇到現在太難看了好委員我回去回條解再給你委員報告好謝謝好謝謝我們林淑芬委員發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n692\t6693\t大概2017年我在這裡也質詢過產業界工廠透過SEEMS系統做了空污數據造假\n30100\t43585\t那個時候我們就發現其實這些業者他們使用的DHS系統就是DAS系統裡面竟然有即時值的寫入的功能而且不只可以即時的傳輸數據還能夠回頭改掉原始資料庫裡面的資料那我現在講說\n56025\t77317\t依照各公司場所應該設置連續自動監測設施就是SIMS系統的這一些固定污染源從製程來看 從產業來看大多數都集中在高污染的高風險的產業排放高污染 排放高風險\n78874\t87360\t我講白了你們所列的這一些資料裡面就是水泥製造業水泥窯然後再來就是鋼鐵冶煉業電糊爐\n92047\t114064\t再來是事業廢棄物的焚化爐和一般廢棄物的焚化爐再來是石化產業大家都知道我剛剛所念的石化產業鋼鐵業水泥業焚化爐事業廢棄物焚化爐這些都是大財團大產業大業主\n117967\t124811\t然後管制它必須24小時不間斷都要及時監測它的空污排放為什麼 因為它高風險 高污染可是我們2017年就講了而且廠商在你們設定的DAS系統裡面可以篡改資料2017年我們就講了 揭露了台塑的六清廠\n147265\t152929\t屢屢發現超標 然後一超標就屢屢手動修正然後篡改數據 偽造監測數據我們做這個是不是要做什麼如果可以這樣 所有的監測數據都可以回頭篡改\n167426\t181264\t那我们24小时的监测算什么所以这不是一个小事这是整个连续监测制度连续监测系统的信任的崩解\n182438\t184319\t所以我現在是為了怕部長你不知道所以我再remind一下\n202073\t204776\t這個SIMS系統透過DAS的這個系統還要負責收集運算壓縮分類上傳把整個連續監測才能夠送到你們部裡面來\n218670\t232836\t所以這個SIMS的連續自動監測系統即時監控污染數據但是數據不是直接就連線到你這裡來喔它還需要中介系統就是DAS這個系統DAHS就是數據採集和處理系統\n238410\t255901\t如果這個監測的大腦就是大使的系統可以被廠商動手腳或者是本身設計有漏洞那政府接收這些連續監測的數據會失真請問你在後面拍我的是哪一個單位\n257267\t285039\t你是誰 對啦你是哪個單位 時間暫停一下主席 我有權宜問題要請教當我在質疑這個 質詢這個問題為什麼有人一直問啊請問我只是請教一下我需要了解在座對我們立法院的問政是公開可受公平但我需要知道為什麼有人特別關注這個議題主席請裁示剛才站起來的那一位是記者嗎\n286776\t308704\t對啦 哪個單位 哪個記者 哪一報可以告訴我們嗎我們議場裡面也發生過啊游志斌這種事件啊那我想要了解 主席請裁示這個權宜問題先處理特別關注我在質詢這個議題的這一個記者是哪個單位的記者叫什麼名字 處理處理主席請你裁示啦\n316147\t331742\t請問一下是記者嗎我只是想要了解而已哪一個報 哪一個傳媒記者叫什麼名字我想要了解你為什麼對於這個議題特別要拍林淑芬沒有私下報告公開在這裡我想要公開了解\n339571\t350988\t主席我不希望在這裡佔用大家太多時間但是關係到委員的也有可能是人身安全的問題啊我接下來要打財團啊要就針對鋼鐵業石化業\n355222\t370955\t企業費企務這個大財團我就是要針對他們啊是不是可以麻煩報哪一個那個 主委這裡面來的每個人是誰你都搞不清楚狀況這樣行嗎立委在這裡問政沒有人身安全的疑慮嗎不好意思各位就在那邊講說但是你是哪來來給他給主席看一下可不可以交給主席看一下\n385377\t385798\t台灣時報我為什麼要講這個\n408533\t421083\t我們不斷的努力要求跟監督之下你們2009年20年就是109年我從2017年我們揭露了這個弊案發現你們SIMS連續監測系統是造假騙人命的那樣你們終於在2020年在SIMS的管理辦法第31條明定了你們修改的辦法\n436263\t450496\t你們的大使系統必須送交中央主管機關認可的第三方審查機構進行測試而且要取得合格的證明文件你們的修改文字如下 應經中央主管機關認可的\n452958\t469049\t驗證審查機構依規定程序與事項完成系統測試並取得驗證審查合格的文件證明不但如此你們的辦法還要求每年至少一次送第三方查驗機構做複查連續兩年合格的才可以免查否則要重新送審而且這一個修正從114年1月1號正式施行也就是\n481226\t496212\t你們從2017年我們揭露2020年才要改而且是拖了8年到今年的1月1號才要施行但是部長你現在你上任的時候你做了什麼你做了什麼好 包委\n499881\t519676\t你把這一個辦法整條刪除走回頭路經過百年才會改的這百年的時間給你行政部門給你環境部可以有時間慢慢的因應給你八年的緩衝期我們管制石化產業、焚化爐、事業廢棄業鋼鐵業、水泥業\n528908\t534411\t然後你們這八年做了什麼八年後你直接說刪除 刪除你也稍微解說一下\n542453\t567082\t保證你不知道喔 會害羞的人到底要做什麼你不知道 這重大政策重大變革而且走回頭路而且包庇業者推卸責任我今天很生氣喔我們從2017年搞到2020年才搞好結果你2025年近年幾條辦法的文字全部刪除所有的管制全部刪除你現在是怎樣\n570083\t571707\t給你們爭笑還是給你們爭笑?你在玩假的你把連續階段系統還當兒戲\n579585\t605386\t保證你講 你不知道喔 你可以說你不知道這叫政府單位來回答這個細節我待會請我們市長來報告細節不需要報告不是 包委員第一個是我對於這種監測造假的是不手軟所以我們前一陣子也重罰了幾家監測造假不要不手軟 你不要講這個你告訴我這一條你的政策裁定你基於什麼樣的考量我知道啦 我告訴你 我們來質詢我來質詢是不是青菜來質詢的\n608669\t622549\t林淑媛你之前,如果沒有專業,我今天來跟你講這個,你們用什麼理由把整條辦法刪除,你知道嗎?後天你不知道啦,你夾業務單位回去,我不跟你講,你被下面的人欺騙,欺上瞞下。\n624412\t639988\t他們用手把這一個辦法刪除 我唸給你聽非常暴力 非常的赤裸裸 非常直接你們說現在能夠擔任大使審查機構第三方驗證的單位 太少了沒有人力來消化這個審查量\n644893\t649437\t中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中\n663050\t673702\t喔 你們這麼聰明 聰明到用這個理由然後就把審查制度改掉 改成說 啊沒關係啦這個DAS系統交給地方環保局去查核就好了當初也是這樣耶\n679195\t682957\t二零一七年 也是交給地方政府去監討我講比較難聽的 台塑六清為例台塑六清地方的建設是需要一個六強申請 拜託你來幫我們補助鄉鎮的幾個幾個鄉鎮的台塑六清不可以忘記了一間人說的館長 一間人說的議長 一間人說的鄉長是這樣\n706656\t716766\t你們現在說我們不要再對石化業、不要再對鋼鐵業不要再對事業廢棄物的焚化爐我們的連續監測系統抓到這裡,交給地方政府去監督查核2017年抓到這裡,地方政府都沒有領略包庇地方政府也沒有專頁可以做\n730410\t750487\t然後人家不斷的造假所以才找到說環境部願意要第三方審查確保公平專業和不偽造不篡改現在你走回頭路讓地方環保局自己用查核程式驗證這跟你當初\n753690\t771585\t把整條辦法刪光的公告的審查機制不一樣 天跟地的差別啦差別是天跟地耶好 我跟你報告完看理由就是交給地方政府用程式去跑就好了部長你怎麼看\n772779\t778869\t你的任內1月1號要施行1月2號把條文都改掉都不用做了整個連續監測系統可以繼續造假沒那麼嚴格\n787618\t802492\t這樣空污喔不是用愛發電而已用人民的肺來吸這一些廢氣啦連續監測系統要監測什麼東西因監測的東西各種製程很多包括二氧化硫總還原硫這個\n805216\t826924\t氮氧化硫 氯化氫 氯氧化氮揮發性有機物質 排放流率等等這些東西直接排放到空氣當中污染 污染外部化 環境成本外部化然後然後叫人民去承擔我們也知道 對不對你是自己這樣高風險 高污染的\n833891\t857260\t我們才做24小時連續監測高風險 高汙染的 你把連續監測的制度 系統 這樣改掉好不容易國家要認真把關了 制度都沒變喔只是曾經發生了篡改 因為廠商台塑篡改所以我們才要改善這個\n859157\t877267\t監督的系統要確保它是正確不能篡改沒有改變制度 只是認真去執行而已現在你 現在怎麼樣 你是要宣示對圖利石化業者 圖利鋼鐵業者圖利失業廢棄物焚化爐的業者圖利水泥窯的業者 是嗎\n878547\t902235\t博電你說看你現在是在給我們爭笑的嗎報委員那個之前是大使現在其實用資訊系統可以來做處理的這個就是我所了解當時要改的一個原因啦那委員提出的這個要改的原因不是喔你們對外的公法不是喔你們對外的公法不要再胡說八道喔你們到外講法是可以擔任大使審查機構的第三方驗證單位太少了沒有人力消化全部的案量\n906997\t913468\t你現在在這裡說 跟你對外宣稱的理由不一樣喔 今天你不可以在這裡亂講你現在是怎樣 1月2號改掉了\n922230\t945850\t你知道地方環保局的問題嗎 地方環保局的問題有什麼 你就要搞地方 下放給地方 地方有沒有能力有沒有能力 保證 顯然你都不知道這個事情 知識體大 災團鬆到要死 人民的喜不喜感不要忘了肺癌 佔台灣癌症的這個排行榜 排名是前三大 現在是怎樣\n949500\t952421\t不對 你現在是用廢來吸空汙嗎用人民的廢來吸財團的空汙嗎現在你自己用人民的廢自己吸空汙嗎財團賺錢賺的死 人民生病病的要死是這樣子嗎你改這個改什麼不對的 你說給我們聽一下\n977492\t1004572\t其實這個第一個是當時這個量能在檢測的是給你八年的時間準備還在講量能給你從2020年制定這一條到現在也四五年了還在講量能我是今年改明年就施行嗎不是喔都正早八年啦 八年的時間你準備你跟我說量能不足 騙笑的全部SIMS監測系統有幾個 空污的\n1007355\t1024043\t量能不足 專購是幾個 倒幾個四百五十個 四百五十個五百隻 沒栽掉茶葉你現在這樣說 我覺得笑話 保證還有理由嗎 還有理由嗎現在是怎樣 栽培都這麼爽空污排放出來成本這麼低\n1034383\t1042848\t超標了 連罰金都不繳超標了 開罰單而已現在連罰單都可以篡改 改改都連罰單都不划了 騙笑的這不是裝笑的嗎當時我們揭發數據可以造假 還不是你們不是你們去找的 是我們揭發的你們包庇的\n1062469\t1079602\t2017年 從以前 從我連續監督系統到2017年揭發揭露這個弊案以前政府都在包庇我們我們揭發了 揭弊了你們還不改 還給我們改回來現在是怎樣啦 你快說啊 保證我很不願意拖時間 但是這個問題這麼嚴重 我沒有辦法接受\n1086960\t1092725\t人民也沒辦法接受中華婚姻自己的鄉親也沒辦法接受好 委員這個我回去再來好好的了解再給委員做一個報告可以嗎我先跟你報告一下地方政府因為你要讓地方政府自己透過這個查核程式去檢驗\n1110051\t1124208\t我現在說一個地方政府把整個大使的查核責任交給城市交給地方政府環保局來做你們說你們會提供查核工具你們提供城市這個工具是什麼\n1125134\t1134302\t那也要有人操作地方環保局人力夠嗎專業夠嗎資料判讀的能力有嗎系統設定錯誤排除一本說明書就可以學會的嗎你們委外的SIMS計畫團隊到各地方環保局去做績效訪查時你們要寫什麼報告\n1147693\t1171448\t你們沒有看你們的限時計畫的監測的團隊去查訪發現各環保局常因人力不足沒有辦法及時掌握公司場所的資料異常仍然高度依賴環境部這裡的警示系統所發出的餘限和斷線通知\n1174919\t1180141\t現在連基本的鈔票問題都靠中央提供給他們才知道就沒人在看啦你們即便開發了異常數據儀表板\n1186496\t1207242\t能夠顯示超標缺漏斷線等異常行為但是你們自己去檢查發現現場地方環保局的人力跟操作的能量仍然是短板即便環保局在第一線還沒有辦法能夠真正及時因應這你們自己去查的時候發現的對你\n1211463\t1234461\t你們設計了一個系統那也體現了你們希望推動數據化管理的決心但是問題是地方環保局沒有專業能力可以跟得上這一些工具的使用你們的這個報告也提到系統的操作需要模擬程式資料比對模組查核案件的管理系統\n1235422\t1248133\t還要能夠比對Modbus TCP協定下的傳輸數據我問你 你自己去集合地方環保局就發現都沒人力 也沒人 也沒專業你現在要再下放這個東西給他們\n1256617\t1276157\t就現有的 你們就發現地方環保局常見數據缺漏狀態嘛 異常的問題有些地方環保局呢資料的維護仍然停留在上一個城市的版本都沒有update 沒有更新欸甚至跟廠商實際設備的資訊不一致欸\n1279204\t1284316\t甚至部分的地方環保局在進行拔除訊號線測試中斷儀器跟測試大使的訊號傳輸查核過程中\n1291107\t1311909\t出現了監測數據異常或監測數據狀態的代碼異常的狀況而且明顯不符合SIMS管理辦法的相關規範這都說明了地方環保局在現場操作上資訊落差沒有解決甚至可能是故意要掩蓋真正的污染的狀況\n1313550\t1322717\t這不是沒發生過喔 我已經講過了台塑也不是只有六清喔台塑在南亞 在台畫廠都曾經透過大使的軟體 產出不實數據大規模造假 虛報監測值 欺騙政府而下面的人 眼睛都看不見 電台的人每天都在那裡聽不聽\n1342523\t1347365\t保定你們不是不知道這些案例啊我們都講過了所以你們2020年才修法所以要求大使的系統必須經過驗證結果今天你把它刪除了\n1359298\t1386217\t整個管理的制度又回到業者財團自己裝監測器 自己回報數據然後呢 地方自行查核 六天一天一天一天兩天一天一天一天一天兩天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天\n1389304\t1404607\t環境部要給我 也不是給我給全國的人民一個說法作為SIMS連續監測系統制度中最重要的大使的第三方驗證查核機制被你們說三就三你要告訴大家你為什麼走回頭路為什麼走回去包庇業者包庇大財團有利於這些業者\n1418792\t1442091\t可以造假的這一條路上呢為什麼為什麼改革到一半1月1號今年1月1號要施行1月2號就中斷不用再做像話嗎太粗魯了太暴力了1月1號要做1月2號整條辦法刪掉通通都改掉\n1443271\t1451858\t你不覺得這樣太暴力嗎你們不覺得這樣子太赤裸裸的太難看了嗎吃相難看啊包庇的難看啊不對不覺得嗎包委員那個現在是用資訊系統在做處理啊那那個資料的部分也有在封存在處理那現在這個部分這個通通都資訊系統在處理喔有SIMS全部都資訊系統喔你不要說未來是資訊系統過去也是資訊系統\n1473715\t1498506\t不要在這裡用這種文字來呼嚨大家你現在要把改革回來了嗎?改革能夠停滯嗎?還不是改革耶 監察制度都沒有改耶只是你的管理漏洞要堵起來耶叫你把你的系統管理的漏洞要堵起來耶你把這個漏洞本來要堵起來的 又把它拿掉了荒謬 華天下之大雞\n1503010\t1513812\t欺騙人民啊這不是包庇什麼是包庇你現在要怎麼做你說你要回去調查我現在在問你 就我所講的這個你難道不覺得這個漏洞應該要堵起來嗎應不應該我回去了解好不好 給我一點時間你不覺得應該要 這個漏洞絕對不允許嗎你不覺得地方政府其實是沒有能力的\n1528479\t1545245\t我們知道大陸政府 啊我們要蓋一條橋 大陸我們沒有錢啊大廈你可不可以幫我們補助一下好 就是這樣處理的啊 你不知道嗎你叫男人手短的業者 男人手短的政府真的去感到那個業者 可不可能 可不可能不然你說說嘛 更有可能 如果男人手短 吃人嘴軟\n1557228\t1575377\t還是要監督什麼?那是爭笑的嘛你們走不進去 我也能懷疑 何理得懷疑?是得多少好錢啦石化產業 大財團鋼鐵業 多股票上市櫃公司的大財團失業費債務 多肥 紅包不知道算多少別再說其他的 對不對你們裡面的人拿錢嗎?不會不會?不要講得這麼快\n1585803\t1590167\t這些官僚2017年都還在都是他們一路包庇到現在太難看了好 委員我回去回條解再給你委員報告好 謝謝好 謝謝我們林淑芬委員發言\n","txt":"大概2017年我在這裡也質詢過產業界工廠透過SEEMS系統做了空污數據造假\n那個時候我們就發現其實這些業者他們使用的DHS系統就是DAS系統裡面竟然有即時值的寫入的功能而且不只可以即時的傳輸數據還能夠回頭改掉原始資料庫裡面的資料那我現在講說\n依照各公司場所應該設置連續自動監測設施就是SIMS系統的這一些固定污染源從製程來看 從產業來看大多數都集中在高污染的高風險的產業排放高污染 排放高風險\n我講白了你們所列的這一些資料裡面就是水泥製造業水泥窯然後再來就是鋼鐵冶煉業電糊爐\n再來是事業廢棄物的焚化爐和一般廢棄物的焚化爐再來是石化產業大家都知道我剛剛所念的石化產業鋼鐵業水泥業焚化爐事業廢棄物焚化爐這些都是大財團大產業大業主\n然後管制它必須24小時不間斷都要及時監測它的空污排放為什麼 因為它高風險 高污染可是我們2017年就講了而且廠商在你們設定的DAS系統裡面可以篡改資料2017年我們就講了 揭露了台塑的六清廠\n屢屢發現超標 然後一超標就屢屢手動修正然後篡改數據 偽造監測數據我們做這個是不是要做什麼如果可以這樣 所有的監測數據都可以回頭篡改\n那我们24小时的监测算什么所以这不是一个小事这是整个连续监测制度连续监测系统的信任的崩解\n所以我現在是為了怕部長你不知道所以我再remind一下\n這個SIMS系統透過DAS的這個系統還要負責收集運算壓縮分類上傳把整個連續監測才能夠送到你們部裡面來\n所以這個SIMS的連續自動監測系統即時監控污染數據但是數據不是直接就連線到你這裡來喔它還需要中介系統就是DAS這個系統DAHS就是數據採集和處理系統\n如果這個監測的大腦就是大使的系統可以被廠商動手腳或者是本身設計有漏洞那政府接收這些連續監測的數據會失真請問你在後面拍我的是哪一個單位\n你是誰 對啦你是哪個單位 時間暫停一下主席 我有權宜問題要請教當我在質疑這個 質詢這個問題為什麼有人一直問啊請問我只是請教一下我需要了解在座對我們立法院的問政是公開可受公平但我需要知道為什麼有人特別關注這個議題主席請裁示剛才站起來的那一位是記者嗎\n對啦 哪個單位 哪個記者 哪一報可以告訴我們嗎我們議場裡面也發生過啊游志斌這種事件啊那我想要了解 主席請裁示這個權宜問題先處理特別關注我在質詢這個議題的這一個記者是哪個單位的記者叫什麼名字 處理處理主席請你裁示啦\n請問一下是記者嗎我只是想要了解而已哪一個報 哪一個傳媒記者叫什麼名字我想要了解你為什麼對於這個議題特別要拍林淑芬沒有私下報告公開在這裡我想要公開了解\n主席我不希望在這裡佔用大家太多時間但是關係到委員的也有可能是人身安全的問題啊我接下來要打財團啊要就針對鋼鐵業石化業\n企業費企務這個大財團我就是要針對他們啊是不是可以麻煩報哪一個那個 主委這裡面來的每個人是誰你都搞不清楚狀況這樣行嗎立委在這裡問政沒有人身安全的疑慮嗎不好意思各位就在那邊講說但是你是哪來來給他給主席看一下可不可以交給主席看一下\n台灣時報我為什麼要講這個\n我們不斷的努力要求跟監督之下你們2009年20年就是109年我從2017年我們揭露了這個弊案發現你們SIMS連續監測系統是造假騙人命的那樣你們終於在2020年在SIMS的管理辦法第31條明定了你們修改的辦法\n你們的大使系統必須送交中央主管機關認可的第三方審查機構進行測試而且要取得合格的證明文件你們的修改文字如下 應經中央主管機關認可的\n驗證審查機構依規定程序與事項完成系統測試並取得驗證審查合格的文件證明不但如此你們的辦法還要求每年至少一次送第三方查驗機構做複查連續兩年合格的才可以免查否則要重新送審而且這一個修正從114年1月1號正式施行也就是\n你們從2017年我們揭露2020年才要改而且是拖了8年到今年的1月1號才要施行但是部長你現在你上任的時候你做了什麼你做了什麼好 包委\n你把這一個辦法整條刪除走回頭路經過百年才會改的這百年的時間給你行政部門給你環境部可以有時間慢慢的因應給你八年的緩衝期我們管制石化產業、焚化爐、事業廢棄業鋼鐵業、水泥業\n然後你們這八年做了什麼八年後你直接說刪除 刪除你也稍微解說一下\n保證你不知道喔 會害羞的人到底要做什麼你不知道 這重大政策重大變革而且走回頭路而且包庇業者推卸責任我今天很生氣喔我們從2017年搞到2020年才搞好結果你2025年近年幾條辦法的文字全部刪除所有的管制全部刪除你現在是怎樣\n給你們爭笑還是給你們爭笑?你在玩假的你把連續階段系統還當兒戲\n保證你講 你不知道喔 你可以說你不知道這叫政府單位來回答這個細節我待會請我們市長來報告細節不需要報告不是 包委員第一個是我對於這種監測造假的是不手軟所以我們前一陣子也重罰了幾家監測造假不要不手軟 你不要講這個你告訴我這一條你的政策裁定你基於什麼樣的考量我知道啦 我告訴你 我們來質詢我來質詢是不是青菜來質詢的\n林淑媛你之前,如果沒有專業,我今天來跟你講這個,你們用什麼理由把整條辦法刪除,你知道嗎?後天你不知道啦,你夾業務單位回去,我不跟你講,你被下面的人欺騙,欺上瞞下。\n他們用手把這一個辦法刪除 我唸給你聽非常暴力 非常的赤裸裸 非常直接你們說現在能夠擔任大使審查機構第三方驗證的單位 太少了沒有人力來消化這個審查量\n中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中\n喔 你們這麼聰明 聰明到用這個理由然後就把審查制度改掉 改成說 啊沒關係啦這個DAS系統交給地方環保局去查核就好了當初也是這樣耶\n二零一七年 也是交給地方政府去監討我講比較難聽的 台塑六清為例台塑六清地方的建設是需要一個六強申請 拜託你來幫我們補助鄉鎮的幾個幾個鄉鎮的台塑六清不可以忘記了一間人說的館長 一間人說的議長 一間人說的鄉長是這樣\n你們現在說我們不要再對石化業、不要再對鋼鐵業不要再對事業廢棄物的焚化爐我們的連續監測系統抓到這裡,交給地方政府去監督查核2017年抓到這裡,地方政府都沒有領略包庇地方政府也沒有專頁可以做\n然後人家不斷的造假所以才找到說環境部願意要第三方審查確保公平專業和不偽造不篡改現在你走回頭路讓地方環保局自己用查核程式驗證這跟你當初\n把整條辦法刪光的公告的審查機制不一樣 天跟地的差別啦差別是天跟地耶好 我跟你報告完看理由就是交給地方政府用程式去跑就好了部長你怎麼看\n你的任內1月1號要施行1月2號把條文都改掉都不用做了整個連續監測系統可以繼續造假沒那麼嚴格\n這樣空污喔不是用愛發電而已用人民的肺來吸這一些廢氣啦連續監測系統要監測什麼東西因監測的東西各種製程很多包括二氧化硫總還原硫這個\n氮氧化硫 氯化氫 氯氧化氮揮發性有機物質 排放流率等等這些東西直接排放到空氣當中污染 污染外部化 環境成本外部化然後然後叫人民去承擔我們也知道 對不對你是自己這樣高風險 高污染的\n我們才做24小時連續監測高風險 高汙染的 你把連續監測的制度 系統 這樣改掉好不容易國家要認真把關了 制度都沒變喔只是曾經發生了篡改 因為廠商台塑篡改所以我們才要改善這個\n監督的系統要確保它是正確不能篡改沒有改變制度 只是認真去執行而已現在你 現在怎麼樣 你是要宣示對圖利石化業者 圖利鋼鐵業者圖利失業廢棄物焚化爐的業者圖利水泥窯的業者 是嗎\n博電你說看你現在是在給我們爭笑的嗎報委員那個之前是大使現在其實用資訊系統可以來做處理的這個就是我所了解當時要改的一個原因啦那委員提出的這個要改的原因不是喔你們對外的公法不是喔你們對外的公法不要再胡說八道喔你們到外講法是可以擔任大使審查機構的第三方驗證單位太少了沒有人力消化全部的案量\n你現在在這裡說 跟你對外宣稱的理由不一樣喔 今天你不可以在這裡亂講你現在是怎樣 1月2號改掉了\n你知道地方環保局的問題嗎 地方環保局的問題有什麼 你就要搞地方 下放給地方 地方有沒有能力有沒有能力 保證 顯然你都不知道這個事情 知識體大 災團鬆到要死 人民的喜不喜感不要忘了肺癌 佔台灣癌症的這個排行榜 排名是前三大 現在是怎樣\n不對 你現在是用廢來吸空汙嗎用人民的廢來吸財團的空汙嗎現在你自己用人民的廢自己吸空汙嗎財團賺錢賺的死 人民生病病的要死是這樣子嗎你改這個改什麼不對的 你說給我們聽一下\n其實這個第一個是當時這個量能在檢測的是給你八年的時間準備還在講量能給你從2020年制定這一條到現在也四五年了還在講量能我是今年改明年就施行嗎不是喔都正早八年啦 八年的時間你準備你跟我說量能不足 騙笑的全部SIMS監測系統有幾個 空污的\n量能不足 專購是幾個 倒幾個四百五十個 四百五十個五百隻 沒栽掉茶葉你現在這樣說 我覺得笑話 保證還有理由嗎 還有理由嗎現在是怎樣 栽培都這麼爽空污排放出來成本這麼低\n超標了 連罰金都不繳超標了 開罰單而已現在連罰單都可以篡改 改改都連罰單都不划了 騙笑的這不是裝笑的嗎當時我們揭發數據可以造假 還不是你們不是你們去找的 是我們揭發的你們包庇的\n2017年 從以前 從我連續監督系統到2017年揭發揭露這個弊案以前政府都在包庇我們我們揭發了 揭弊了你們還不改 還給我們改回來現在是怎樣啦 你快說啊 保證我很不願意拖時間 但是這個問題這麼嚴重 我沒有辦法接受\n人民也沒辦法接受中華婚姻自己的鄉親也沒辦法接受好 委員這個我回去再來好好的了解再給委員做一個報告可以嗎我先跟你報告一下地方政府因為你要讓地方政府自己透過這個查核程式去檢驗\n我現在說一個地方政府把整個大使的查核責任交給城市交給地方政府環保局來做你們說你們會提供查核工具你們提供城市這個工具是什麼\n那也要有人操作地方環保局人力夠嗎專業夠嗎資料判讀的能力有嗎系統設定錯誤排除一本說明書就可以學會的嗎你們委外的SIMS計畫團隊到各地方環保局去做績效訪查時你們要寫什麼報告\n你們沒有看你們的限時計畫的監測的團隊去查訪發現各環保局常因人力不足沒有辦法及時掌握公司場所的資料異常仍然高度依賴環境部這裡的警示系統所發出的餘限和斷線通知\n現在連基本的鈔票問題都靠中央提供給他們才知道就沒人在看啦你們即便開發了異常數據儀表板\n能夠顯示超標缺漏斷線等異常行為但是你們自己去檢查發現現場地方環保局的人力跟操作的能量仍然是短板即便環保局在第一線還沒有辦法能夠真正及時因應這你們自己去查的時候發現的對你\n你們設計了一個系統那也體現了你們希望推動數據化管理的決心但是問題是地方環保局沒有專業能力可以跟得上這一些工具的使用你們的這個報告也提到系統的操作需要模擬程式資料比對模組查核案件的管理系統\n還要能夠比對Modbus TCP協定下的傳輸數據我問你 你自己去集合地方環保局就發現都沒人力 也沒人 也沒專業你現在要再下放這個東西給他們\n就現有的 你們就發現地方環保局常見數據缺漏狀態嘛 異常的問題有些地方環保局呢資料的維護仍然停留在上一個城市的版本都沒有update 沒有更新欸甚至跟廠商實際設備的資訊不一致欸\n甚至部分的地方環保局在進行拔除訊號線測試中斷儀器跟測試大使的訊號傳輸查核過程中\n出現了監測數據異常或監測數據狀態的代碼異常的狀況而且明顯不符合SIMS管理辦法的相關規範這都說明了地方環保局在現場操作上資訊落差沒有解決甚至可能是故意要掩蓋真正的污染的狀況\n這不是沒發生過喔 我已經講過了台塑也不是只有六清喔台塑在南亞 在台畫廠都曾經透過大使的軟體 產出不實數據大規模造假 虛報監測值 欺騙政府而下面的人 眼睛都看不見 電台的人每天都在那裡聽不聽\n保定你們不是不知道這些案例啊我們都講過了所以你們2020年才修法所以要求大使的系統必須經過驗證結果今天你把它刪除了\n整個管理的制度又回到業者財團自己裝監測器 自己回報數據然後呢 地方自行查核 六天一天一天一天兩天一天一天一天一天兩天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天\n環境部要給我 也不是給我給全國的人民一個說法作為SIMS連續監測系統制度中最重要的大使的第三方驗證查核機制被你們說三就三你要告訴大家你為什麼走回頭路為什麼走回去包庇業者包庇大財團有利於這些業者\n可以造假的這一條路上呢為什麼為什麼改革到一半1月1號今年1月1號要施行1月2號就中斷不用再做像話嗎太粗魯了太暴力了1月1號要做1月2號整條辦法刪掉通通都改掉\n你不覺得這樣太暴力嗎你們不覺得這樣子太赤裸裸的太難看了嗎吃相難看啊包庇的難看啊不對不覺得嗎包委員那個現在是用資訊系統在做處理啊那那個資料的部分也有在封存在處理那現在這個部分這個通通都資訊系統在處理喔有SIMS全部都資訊系統喔你不要說未來是資訊系統過去也是資訊系統\n不要在這裡用這種文字來呼嚨大家你現在要把改革回來了嗎?改革能夠停滯嗎?還不是改革耶 監察制度都沒有改耶只是你的管理漏洞要堵起來耶叫你把你的系統管理的漏洞要堵起來耶你把這個漏洞本來要堵起來的 又把它拿掉了荒謬 華天下之大雞\n欺騙人民啊這不是包庇什麼是包庇你現在要怎麼做你說你要回去調查我現在在問你 就我所講的這個你難道不覺得這個漏洞應該要堵起來嗎應不應該我回去了解好不好 給我一點時間你不覺得應該要 這個漏洞絕對不允許嗎你不覺得地方政府其實是沒有能力的\n我們知道大陸政府 啊我們要蓋一條橋 大陸我們沒有錢啊大廈你可不可以幫我們補助一下好 就是這樣處理的啊 你不知道嗎你叫男人手短的業者 男人手短的政府真的去感到那個業者 可不可能 可不可能不然你說說嘛 更有可能 如果男人手短 吃人嘴軟\n還是要監督什麼?那是爭笑的嘛你們走不進去 我也能懷疑 何理得懷疑?是得多少好錢啦石化產業 大財團鋼鐵業 多股票上市櫃公司的大財團失業費債務 多肥 紅包不知道算多少別再說其他的 對不對你們裡面的人拿錢嗎?不會不會?不要講得這麼快\n這些官僚2017年都還在都是他們一路包庇到現在太難看了好 委員我回去回條解再給你委員報告好 謝謝好 謝謝我們林淑芬委員發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.692 --> 00:06.693\n大概2017年我在這裡也質詢過產業界工廠透過SEEMS系統做了空污數據造假\n\n00:30.100 --> 00:43.585\n那個時候我們就發現其實這些業者他們使用的DHS系統就是DAS系統裡面竟然有即時值的寫入的功能而且不只可以即時的傳輸數據還能夠回頭改掉原始資料庫裡面的資料那我現在講說\n\n00:56.025 --> 01:17.317\n依照各公司場所應該設置連續自動監測設施就是SIMS系統的這一些固定污染源從製程來看從產業來看大多數都集中在高污染的高風險的產業排放高污染排放高風險\n\n01:18.874 --> 01:27.360\n我講白了你們所列的這一些資料裡面就是水泥製造業水泥窯然後再來就是鋼鐵冶煉業電糊爐\n\n01:32.047 --> 01:54.064\n再來是事業廢棄物的焚化爐和一般廢棄物的焚化爐再來是石化產業大家都知道我剛剛所念的石化產業鋼鐵業水泥業焚化爐事業廢棄物焚化爐這些都是大財團大產業大業主\n\n01:57.967 --> 02:04.811\n然後管制它必須24小時不間斷都要及時監測它的空污排放為什麼因為它高風險高污染可是我們2017年就講了而且廠商在你們設定的DAS系統裡面可以篡改資料2017年我們就講了揭露了台塑的六清廠\n\n02:27.265 --> 02:32.929\n屢屢發現超標然後一超標就屢屢手動修正然後篡改數據偽造監測數據我們做這個是不是要做什麼如果可以這樣所有的監測數據都可以回頭篡改\n\n02:47.426 --> 03:01.264\n那我们24小时的监测算什么所以这不是一个小事这是整个连续监测制度连续监测系统的信任的崩解\n\n03:02.438 --> 03:04.319\n所以我現在是為了怕部長你不知道所以我再remind一下\n\n03:22.073 --> 03:24.776\n這個SIMS系統透過DAS的這個系統還要負責收集運算壓縮分類上傳把整個連續監測才能夠送到你們部裡面來\n\n03:38.670 --> 03:52.836\n所以這個SIMS的連續自動監測系統即時監控污染數據但是數據不是直接就連線到你這裡來喔它還需要中介系統就是DAS這個系統DAHS就是數據採集和處理系統\n\n03:58.410 --> 04:15.901\n如果這個監測的大腦就是大使的系統可以被廠商動手腳或者是本身設計有漏洞那政府接收這些連續監測的數據會失真請問你在後面拍我的是哪一個單位\n\n04:17.267 --> 04:45.039\n你是誰對啦你是哪個單位時間暫停一下主席我有權宜問題要請教當我在質疑這個質詢這個問題為什麼有人一直問啊請問我只是請教一下我需要了解在座對我們立法院的問政是公開可受公平但我需要知道為什麼有人特別關注這個議題主席請裁示剛才站起來的那一位是記者嗎\n\n04:46.776 --> 05:08.704\n對啦哪個單位哪個記者哪一報可以告訴我們嗎我們議場裡面也發生過啊游志斌這種事件啊那我想要了解主席請裁示這個權宜問題先處理特別關注我在質詢這個議題的這一個記者是哪個單位的記者叫什麼名字處理處理主席請你裁示啦\n\n05:16.147 --> 05:31.742\n請問一下是記者嗎我只是想要了解而已哪一個報哪一個傳媒記者叫什麼名字我想要了解你為什麼對於這個議題特別要拍林淑芬沒有私下報告公開在這裡我想要公開了解\n\n05:39.571 --> 05:50.988\n主席我不希望在這裡佔用大家太多時間但是關係到委員的也有可能是人身安全的問題啊我接下來要打財團啊要就針對鋼鐵業石化業\n\n05:55.222 --> 06:10.955\n企業費企務這個大財團我就是要針對他們啊是不是可以麻煩報哪一個那個主委這裡面來的每個人是誰你都搞不清楚狀況這樣行嗎立委在這裡問政沒有人身安全的疑慮嗎不好意思各位就在那邊講說但是你是哪來來給他給主席看一下可不可以交給主席看一下\n\n06:25.377 --> 06:25.798\n台灣時報我為什麼要講這個\n\n06:48.533 --> 07:01.083\n我們不斷的努力要求跟監督之下你們2009年20年就是109年我從2017年我們揭露了這個弊案發現你們SIMS連續監測系統是造假騙人命的那樣你們終於在2020年在SIMS的管理辦法第31條明定了你們修改的辦法\n\n07:16.263 --> 07:30.496\n你們的大使系統必須送交中央主管機關認可的第三方審查機構進行測試而且要取得合格的證明文件你們的修改文字如下應經中央主管機關認可的\n\n07:32.958 --> 07:49.049\n驗證審查機構依規定程序與事項完成系統測試並取得驗證審查合格的文件證明不但如此你們的辦法還要求每年至少一次送第三方查驗機構做複查連續兩年合格的才可以免查否則要重新送審而且這一個修正從114年1月1號正式施行也就是\n\n08:01.226 --> 08:16.212\n你們從2017年我們揭露2020年才要改而且是拖了8年到今年的1月1號才要施行但是部長你現在你上任的時候你做了什麼你做了什麼好包委\n\n08:19.881 --> 08:39.676\n你把這一個辦法整條刪除走回頭路經過百年才會改的這百年的時間給你行政部門給你環境部可以有時間慢慢的因應給你八年的緩衝期我們管制石化產業、焚化爐、事業廢棄業鋼鐵業、水泥業\n\n08:48.908 --> 08:54.411\n然後你們這八年做了什麼八年後你直接說刪除刪除你也稍微解說一下\n\n09:02.453 --> 09:27.082\n保證你不知道喔會害羞的人到底要做什麼你不知道這重大政策重大變革而且走回頭路而且包庇業者推卸責任我今天很生氣喔我們從2017年搞到2020年才搞好結果你2025年近年幾條辦法的文字全部刪除所有的管制全部刪除你現在是怎樣\n\n09:30.083 --> 09:31.707\n給你們爭笑還是給你們爭笑?你在玩假的你把連續階段系統還當兒戲\n\n09:39.585 --> 10:05.386\n保證你講你不知道喔你可以說你不知道這叫政府單位來回答這個細節我待會請我們市長來報告細節不需要報告不是包委員第一個是我對於這種監測造假的是不手軟所以我們前一陣子也重罰了幾家監測造假不要不手軟你不要講這個你告訴我這一條你的政策裁定你基於什麼樣的考量我知道啦我告訴你我們來質詢我來質詢是不是青菜來質詢的\n\n10:08.669 --> 10:22.549\n林淑媛你之前,如果沒有專業,我今天來跟你講這個,你們用什麼理由把整條辦法刪除,你知道嗎?後天你不知道啦,你夾業務單位回去,我不跟你講,你被下面的人欺騙,欺上瞞下。\n\n10:24.412 --> 10:39.988\n他們用手把這一個辦法刪除我唸給你聽非常暴力非常的赤裸裸非常直接你們說現在能夠擔任大使審查機構第三方驗證的單位太少了沒有人力來消化這個審查量\n\n10:44.893 --> 10:49.437\n中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中\n\n11:03.050 --> 11:13.702\n喔你們這麼聰明聰明到用這個理由然後就把審查制度改掉改成說啊沒關係啦這個DAS系統交給地方環保局去查核就好了當初也是這樣耶\n\n11:19.195 --> 11:22.957\n二零一七年也是交給地方政府去監討我講比較難聽的台塑六清為例台塑六清地方的建設是需要一個六強申請拜託你來幫我們補助鄉鎮的幾個幾個鄉鎮的台塑六清不可以忘記了一間人說的館長一間人說的議長一間人說的鄉長是這樣\n\n11:46.656 --> 11:56.766\n你們現在說我們不要再對石化業、不要再對鋼鐵業不要再對事業廢棄物的焚化爐我們的連續監測系統抓到這裡,交給地方政府去監督查核2017年抓到這裡,地方政府都沒有領略包庇地方政府也沒有專頁可以做\n\n12:10.410 --> 12:30.487\n然後人家不斷的造假所以才找到說環境部願意要第三方審查確保公平專業和不偽造不篡改現在你走回頭路讓地方環保局自己用查核程式驗證這跟你當初\n\n12:33.690 --> 12:51.585\n把整條辦法刪光的公告的審查機制不一樣天跟地的差別啦差別是天跟地耶好我跟你報告完看理由就是交給地方政府用程式去跑就好了部長你怎麼看\n\n12:52.779 --> 12:58.869\n你的任內1月1號要施行1月2號把條文都改掉都不用做了整個連續監測系統可以繼續造假沒那麼嚴格\n\n13:07.618 --> 13:22.492\n這樣空污喔不是用愛發電而已用人民的肺來吸這一些廢氣啦連續監測系統要監測什麼東西因監測的東西各種製程很多包括二氧化硫總還原硫這個\n\n13:25.216 --> 13:46.924\n氮氧化硫氯化氫氯氧化氮揮發性有機物質排放流率等等這些東西直接排放到空氣當中污染污染外部化環境成本外部化然後然後叫人民去承擔我們也知道對不對你是自己這樣高風險高污染的\n\n13:53.891 --> 14:17.260\n我們才做24小時連續監測高風險高汙染的你把連續監測的制度系統這樣改掉好不容易國家要認真把關了制度都沒變喔只是曾經發生了篡改因為廠商台塑篡改所以我們才要改善這個\n\n14:19.157 --> 14:37.267\n監督的系統要確保它是正確不能篡改沒有改變制度只是認真去執行而已現在你現在怎麼樣你是要宣示對圖利石化業者圖利鋼鐵業者圖利失業廢棄物焚化爐的業者圖利水泥窯的業者是嗎\n\n14:38.547 --> 15:02.235\n博電你說看你現在是在給我們爭笑的嗎報委員那個之前是大使現在其實用資訊系統可以來做處理的這個就是我所了解當時要改的一個原因啦那委員提出的這個要改的原因不是喔你們對外的公法不是喔你們對外的公法不要再胡說八道喔你們到外講法是可以擔任大使審查機構的第三方驗證單位太少了沒有人力消化全部的案量\n\n15:06.997 --> 15:13.468\n你現在在這裡說跟你對外宣稱的理由不一樣喔今天你不可以在這裡亂講你現在是怎樣1月2號改掉了\n\n15:22.230 --> 15:45.850\n你知道地方環保局的問題嗎地方環保局的問題有什麼你就要搞地方下放給地方地方有沒有能力有沒有能力保證顯然你都不知道這個事情知識體大災團鬆到要死人民的喜不喜感不要忘了肺癌佔台灣癌症的這個排行榜排名是前三大現在是怎樣\n\n15:49.500 --> 15:52.421\n不對你現在是用廢來吸空汙嗎用人民的廢來吸財團的空汙嗎現在你自己用人民的廢自己吸空汙嗎財團賺錢賺的死人民生病病的要死是這樣子嗎你改這個改什麼不對的你說給我們聽一下\n\n16:17.492 --> 16:44.572\n其實這個第一個是當時這個量能在檢測的是給你八年的時間準備還在講量能給你從2020年制定這一條到現在也四五年了還在講量能我是今年改明年就施行嗎不是喔都正早八年啦八年的時間你準備你跟我說量能不足騙笑的全部SIMS監測系統有幾個空污的\n\n16:47.355 --> 17:04.043\n量能不足專購是幾個倒幾個四百五十個四百五十個五百隻沒栽掉茶葉你現在這樣說我覺得笑話保證還有理由嗎還有理由嗎現在是怎樣栽培都這麼爽空污排放出來成本這麼低\n\n17:14.383 --> 17:22.848\n超標了連罰金都不繳超標了開罰單而已現在連罰單都可以篡改改改都連罰單都不划了騙笑的這不是裝笑的嗎當時我們揭發數據可以造假還不是你們不是你們去找的是我們揭發的你們包庇的\n\n17:42.469 --> 17:59.602\n2017年從以前從我連續監督系統到2017年揭發揭露這個弊案以前政府都在包庇我們我們揭發了揭弊了你們還不改還給我們改回來現在是怎樣啦你快說啊保證我很不願意拖時間但是這個問題這麼嚴重我沒有辦法接受\n\n18:06.960 --> 18:12.725\n人民也沒辦法接受中華婚姻自己的鄉親也沒辦法接受好委員這個我回去再來好好的了解再給委員做一個報告可以嗎我先跟你報告一下地方政府因為你要讓地方政府自己透過這個查核程式去檢驗\n\n18:30.051 --> 18:44.208\n我現在說一個地方政府把整個大使的查核責任交給城市交給地方政府環保局來做你們說你們會提供查核工具你們提供城市這個工具是什麼\n\n18:45.134 --> 18:54.302\n那也要有人操作地方環保局人力夠嗎專業夠嗎資料判讀的能力有嗎系統設定錯誤排除一本說明書就可以學會的嗎你們委外的SIMS計畫團隊到各地方環保局去做績效訪查時你們要寫什麼報告\n\n19:07.693 --> 19:31.448\n你們沒有看你們的限時計畫的監測的團隊去查訪發現各環保局常因人力不足沒有辦法及時掌握公司場所的資料異常仍然高度依賴環境部這裡的警示系統所發出的餘限和斷線通知\n\n19:34.919 --> 19:40.141\n現在連基本的鈔票問題都靠中央提供給他們才知道就沒人在看啦你們即便開發了異常數據儀表板\n\n19:46.496 --> 20:07.242\n能夠顯示超標缺漏斷線等異常行為但是你們自己去檢查發現現場地方環保局的人力跟操作的能量仍然是短板即便環保局在第一線還沒有辦法能夠真正及時因應這你們自己去查的時候發現的對你\n\n20:11.463 --> 20:34.461\n你們設計了一個系統那也體現了你們希望推動數據化管理的決心但是問題是地方環保局沒有專業能力可以跟得上這一些工具的使用你們的這個報告也提到系統的操作需要模擬程式資料比對模組查核案件的管理系統\n\n20:35.422 --> 20:48.133\n還要能夠比對ModbusTCP協定下的傳輸數據我問你你自己去集合地方環保局就發現都沒人力也沒人也沒專業你現在要再下放這個東西給他們\n\n20:56.617 --> 21:16.157\n就現有的你們就發現地方環保局常見數據缺漏狀態嘛異常的問題有些地方環保局呢資料的維護仍然停留在上一個城市的版本都沒有update沒有更新欸甚至跟廠商實際設備的資訊不一致欸\n\n21:19.204 --> 21:24.316\n甚至部分的地方環保局在進行拔除訊號線測試中斷儀器跟測試大使的訊號傳輸查核過程中\n\n21:31.107 --> 21:51.909\n出現了監測數據異常或監測數據狀態的代碼異常的狀況而且明顯不符合SIMS管理辦法的相關規範這都說明了地方環保局在現場操作上資訊落差沒有解決甚至可能是故意要掩蓋真正的污染的狀況\n\n21:53.550 --> 22:02.717\n這不是沒發生過喔我已經講過了台塑也不是只有六清喔台塑在南亞在台畫廠都曾經透過大使的軟體產出不實數據大規模造假虛報監測值欺騙政府而下面的人眼睛都看不見電台的人每天都在那裡聽不聽\n\n22:22.523 --> 22:27.365\n保定你們不是不知道這些案例啊我們都講過了所以你們2020年才修法所以要求大使的系統必須經過驗證結果今天你把它刪除了\n\n22:39.298 --> 23:06.217\n整個管理的制度又回到業者財團自己裝監測器自己回報數據然後呢地方自行查核六天一天一天一天兩天一天一天一天一天兩天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天\n\n23:09.304 --> 23:24.607\n環境部要給我也不是給我給全國的人民一個說法作為SIMS連續監測系統制度中最重要的大使的第三方驗證查核機制被你們說三就三你要告訴大家你為什麼走回頭路為什麼走回去包庇業者包庇大財團有利於這些業者\n\n23:38.792 --> 24:02.091\n可以造假的這一條路上呢為什麼為什麼改革到一半1月1號今年1月1號要施行1月2號就中斷不用再做像話嗎太粗魯了太暴力了1月1號要做1月2號整條辦法刪掉通通都改掉\n\n24:03.271 --> 24:11.858\n你不覺得這樣太暴力嗎你們不覺得這樣子太赤裸裸的太難看了嗎吃相難看啊包庇的難看啊不對不覺得嗎包委員那個現在是用資訊系統在做處理啊那那個資料的部分也有在封存在處理那現在這個部分這個通通都資訊系統在處理喔有SIMS全部都資訊系統喔你不要說未來是資訊系統過去也是資訊系統\n\n24:33.715 --> 24:58.506\n不要在這裡用這種文字來呼嚨大家你現在要把改革回來了嗎?改革能夠停滯嗎?還不是改革耶監察制度都沒有改耶只是你的管理漏洞要堵起來耶叫你把你的系統管理的漏洞要堵起來耶你把這個漏洞本來要堵起來的又把它拿掉了荒謬華天下之大雞\n\n25:03.010 --> 25:13.812\n欺騙人民啊這不是包庇什麼是包庇你現在要怎麼做你說你要回去調查我現在在問你就我所講的這個你難道不覺得這個漏洞應該要堵起來嗎應不應該我回去了解好不好給我一點時間你不覺得應該要這個漏洞絕對不允許嗎你不覺得地方政府其實是沒有能力的\n\n25:28.479 --> 25:45.245\n我們知道大陸政府啊我們要蓋一條橋大陸我們沒有錢啊大廈你可不可以幫我們補助一下好就是這樣處理的啊你不知道嗎你叫男人手短的業者男人手短的政府真的去感到那個業者可不可能可不可能不然你說說嘛更有可能如果男人手短吃人嘴軟\n\n25:57.228 --> 26:15.377\n還是要監督什麼?那是爭笑的嘛你們走不進去我也能懷疑何理得懷疑?是得多少好錢啦石化產業大財團鋼鐵業多股票上市櫃公司的大財團失業費債務多肥紅包不知道算多少別再說其他的對不對你們裡面的人拿錢嗎?不會不會?不要講得這麼快\n\n26:25.803 --> 26:30.167\n這些官僚2017年都還在都是他們一路包庇到現在太難看了好委員我回去回條解再給你委員報告好謝謝好謝謝我們林淑芬委員發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.692,"end":6.693,"text":"大概2017年我在這裡也質詢過產業界工廠透過SEEMS系統做了空污數據造假"},{"start":30.1,"end":43.585,"text":"那個時候我們就發現其實這些業者他們使用的DHS系統就是DAS系統裡面竟然有即時值的寫入的功能而且不只可以即時的傳輸數據還能夠回頭改掉原始資料庫裡面的資料那我現在講說"},{"start":56.025,"end":77.317,"text":"依照各公司場所應該設置連續自動監測設施就是SIMS系統的這一些固定污染源從製程來看 從產業來看大多數都集中在高污染的高風險的產業排放高污染 排放高風險"},{"start":78.874,"end":87.36,"text":"我講白了你們所列的這一些資料裡面就是水泥製造業水泥窯然後再來就是鋼鐵冶煉業電糊爐"},{"start":92.047,"end":114.064,"text":"再來是事業廢棄物的焚化爐和一般廢棄物的焚化爐再來是石化產業大家都知道我剛剛所念的石化產業鋼鐵業水泥業焚化爐事業廢棄物焚化爐這些都是大財團大產業大業主"},{"start":117.967,"end":124.811,"text":"然後管制它必須24小時不間斷都要及時監測它的空污排放為什麼 因為它高風險 高污染可是我們2017年就講了而且廠商在你們設定的DAS系統裡面可以篡改資料2017年我們就講了 揭露了台塑的六清廠"},{"start":147.265,"end":152.929,"text":"屢屢發現超標 然後一超標就屢屢手動修正然後篡改數據 偽造監測數據我們做這個是不是要做什麼如果可以這樣 所有的監測數據都可以回頭篡改"},{"start":167.426,"end":181.264,"text":"那我们24小时的监测算什么所以这不是一个小事这是整个连续监测制度连续监测系统的信任的崩解"},{"start":182.438,"end":184.319,"text":"所以我現在是為了怕部長你不知道所以我再remind一下"},{"start":202.073,"end":204.776,"text":"這個SIMS系統透過DAS的這個系統還要負責收集運算壓縮分類上傳把整個連續監測才能夠送到你們部裡面來"},{"start":218.67,"end":232.836,"text":"所以這個SIMS的連續自動監測系統即時監控污染數據但是數據不是直接就連線到你這裡來喔它還需要中介系統就是DAS這個系統DAHS就是數據採集和處理系統"},{"start":238.41,"end":255.901,"text":"如果這個監測的大腦就是大使的系統可以被廠商動手腳或者是本身設計有漏洞那政府接收這些連續監測的數據會失真請問你在後面拍我的是哪一個單位"},{"start":257.267,"end":285.039,"text":"你是誰 對啦你是哪個單位 時間暫停一下主席 我有權宜問題要請教當我在質疑這個 質詢這個問題為什麼有人一直問啊請問我只是請教一下我需要了解在座對我們立法院的問政是公開可受公平但我需要知道為什麼有人特別關注這個議題主席請裁示剛才站起來的那一位是記者嗎"},{"start":286.776,"end":308.704,"text":"對啦 哪個單位 哪個記者 哪一報可以告訴我們嗎我們議場裡面也發生過啊游志斌這種事件啊那我想要了解 主席請裁示這個權宜問題先處理特別關注我在質詢這個議題的這一個記者是哪個單位的記者叫什麼名字 處理處理主席請你裁示啦"},{"start":316.147,"end":331.742,"text":"請問一下是記者嗎我只是想要了解而已哪一個報 哪一個傳媒記者叫什麼名字我想要了解你為什麼對於這個議題特別要拍林淑芬沒有私下報告公開在這裡我想要公開了解"},{"start":339.571,"end":350.988,"text":"主席我不希望在這裡佔用大家太多時間但是關係到委員的也有可能是人身安全的問題啊我接下來要打財團啊要就針對鋼鐵業石化業"},{"start":355.222,"end":370.955,"text":"企業費企務這個大財團我就是要針對他們啊是不是可以麻煩報哪一個那個 主委這裡面來的每個人是誰你都搞不清楚狀況這樣行嗎立委在這裡問政沒有人身安全的疑慮嗎不好意思各位就在那邊講說但是你是哪來來給他給主席看一下可不可以交給主席看一下"},{"start":385.377,"end":385.798,"text":"台灣時報我為什麼要講這個"},{"start":408.533,"end":421.083,"text":"我們不斷的努力要求跟監督之下你們2009年20年就是109年我從2017年我們揭露了這個弊案發現你們SIMS連續監測系統是造假騙人命的那樣你們終於在2020年在SIMS的管理辦法第31條明定了你們修改的辦法"},{"start":436.263,"end":450.496,"text":"你們的大使系統必須送交中央主管機關認可的第三方審查機構進行測試而且要取得合格的證明文件你們的修改文字如下 應經中央主管機關認可的"},{"start":452.958,"end":469.049,"text":"驗證審查機構依規定程序與事項完成系統測試並取得驗證審查合格的文件證明不但如此你們的辦法還要求每年至少一次送第三方查驗機構做複查連續兩年合格的才可以免查否則要重新送審而且這一個修正從114年1月1號正式施行也就是"},{"start":481.226,"end":496.212,"text":"你們從2017年我們揭露2020年才要改而且是拖了8年到今年的1月1號才要施行但是部長你現在你上任的時候你做了什麼你做了什麼好 包委"},{"start":499.881,"end":519.676,"text":"你把這一個辦法整條刪除走回頭路經過百年才會改的這百年的時間給你行政部門給你環境部可以有時間慢慢的因應給你八年的緩衝期我們管制石化產業、焚化爐、事業廢棄業鋼鐵業、水泥業"},{"start":528.908,"end":534.411,"text":"然後你們這八年做了什麼八年後你直接說刪除 刪除你也稍微解說一下"},{"start":542.453,"end":567.082,"text":"保證你不知道喔 會害羞的人到底要做什麼你不知道 這重大政策重大變革而且走回頭路而且包庇業者推卸責任我今天很生氣喔我們從2017年搞到2020年才搞好結果你2025年近年幾條辦法的文字全部刪除所有的管制全部刪除你現在是怎樣"},{"start":570.083,"end":571.707,"text":"給你們爭笑還是給你們爭笑?你在玩假的你把連續階段系統還當兒戲"},{"start":579.585,"end":605.386,"text":"保證你講 你不知道喔 你可以說你不知道這叫政府單位來回答這個細節我待會請我們市長來報告細節不需要報告不是 包委員第一個是我對於這種監測造假的是不手軟所以我們前一陣子也重罰了幾家監測造假不要不手軟 你不要講這個你告訴我這一條你的政策裁定你基於什麼樣的考量我知道啦 我告訴你 我們來質詢我來質詢是不是青菜來質詢的"},{"start":608.669,"end":622.549,"text":"林淑媛你之前,如果沒有專業,我今天來跟你講這個,你們用什麼理由把整條辦法刪除,你知道嗎?後天你不知道啦,你夾業務單位回去,我不跟你講,你被下面的人欺騙,欺上瞞下。"},{"start":624.412,"end":639.988,"text":"他們用手把這一個辦法刪除 我唸給你聽非常暴力 非常的赤裸裸 非常直接你們說現在能夠擔任大使審查機構第三方驗證的單位 太少了沒有人力來消化這個審查量"},{"start":644.893,"end":649.437,"text":"中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中"},{"start":663.05,"end":673.702,"text":"喔 你們這麼聰明 聰明到用這個理由然後就把審查制度改掉 改成說 啊沒關係啦這個DAS系統交給地方環保局去查核就好了當初也是這樣耶"},{"start":679.195,"end":682.957,"text":"二零一七年 也是交給地方政府去監討我講比較難聽的 台塑六清為例台塑六清地方的建設是需要一個六強申請 拜託你來幫我們補助鄉鎮的幾個幾個鄉鎮的台塑六清不可以忘記了一間人說的館長 一間人說的議長 一間人說的鄉長是這樣"},{"start":706.656,"end":716.766,"text":"你們現在說我們不要再對石化業、不要再對鋼鐵業不要再對事業廢棄物的焚化爐我們的連續監測系統抓到這裡,交給地方政府去監督查核2017年抓到這裡,地方政府都沒有領略包庇地方政府也沒有專頁可以做"},{"start":730.41,"end":750.487,"text":"然後人家不斷的造假所以才找到說環境部願意要第三方審查確保公平專業和不偽造不篡改現在你走回頭路讓地方環保局自己用查核程式驗證這跟你當初"},{"start":753.69,"end":771.585,"text":"把整條辦法刪光的公告的審查機制不一樣 天跟地的差別啦差別是天跟地耶好 我跟你報告完看理由就是交給地方政府用程式去跑就好了部長你怎麼看"},{"start":772.779,"end":778.869,"text":"你的任內1月1號要施行1月2號把條文都改掉都不用做了整個連續監測系統可以繼續造假沒那麼嚴格"},{"start":787.618,"end":802.492,"text":"這樣空污喔不是用愛發電而已用人民的肺來吸這一些廢氣啦連續監測系統要監測什麼東西因監測的東西各種製程很多包括二氧化硫總還原硫這個"},{"start":805.216,"end":826.924,"text":"氮氧化硫 氯化氫 氯氧化氮揮發性有機物質 排放流率等等這些東西直接排放到空氣當中污染 污染外部化 環境成本外部化然後然後叫人民去承擔我們也知道 對不對你是自己這樣高風險 高污染的"},{"start":833.891,"end":857.26,"text":"我們才做24小時連續監測高風險 高汙染的 你把連續監測的制度 系統 這樣改掉好不容易國家要認真把關了 制度都沒變喔只是曾經發生了篡改 因為廠商台塑篡改所以我們才要改善這個"},{"start":859.157,"end":877.267,"text":"監督的系統要確保它是正確不能篡改沒有改變制度 只是認真去執行而已現在你 現在怎麼樣 你是要宣示對圖利石化業者 圖利鋼鐵業者圖利失業廢棄物焚化爐的業者圖利水泥窯的業者 是嗎"},{"start":878.547,"end":902.235,"text":"博電你說看你現在是在給我們爭笑的嗎報委員那個之前是大使現在其實用資訊系統可以來做處理的這個就是我所了解當時要改的一個原因啦那委員提出的這個要改的原因不是喔你們對外的公法不是喔你們對外的公法不要再胡說八道喔你們到外講法是可以擔任大使審查機構的第三方驗證單位太少了沒有人力消化全部的案量"},{"start":906.997,"end":913.468,"text":"你現在在這裡說 跟你對外宣稱的理由不一樣喔 今天你不可以在這裡亂講你現在是怎樣 1月2號改掉了"},{"start":922.23,"end":945.85,"text":"你知道地方環保局的問題嗎 地方環保局的問題有什麼 你就要搞地方 下放給地方 地方有沒有能力有沒有能力 保證 顯然你都不知道這個事情 知識體大 災團鬆到要死 人民的喜不喜感不要忘了肺癌 佔台灣癌症的這個排行榜 排名是前三大 現在是怎樣"},{"start":949.5,"end":952.421,"text":"不對 你現在是用廢來吸空汙嗎用人民的廢來吸財團的空汙嗎現在你自己用人民的廢自己吸空汙嗎財團賺錢賺的死 人民生病病的要死是這樣子嗎你改這個改什麼不對的 你說給我們聽一下"},{"start":977.492,"end":1004.572,"text":"其實這個第一個是當時這個量能在檢測的是給你八年的時間準備還在講量能給你從2020年制定這一條到現在也四五年了還在講量能我是今年改明年就施行嗎不是喔都正早八年啦 八年的時間你準備你跟我說量能不足 騙笑的全部SIMS監測系統有幾個 空污的"},{"start":1007.355,"end":1024.043,"text":"量能不足 專購是幾個 倒幾個四百五十個 四百五十個五百隻 沒栽掉茶葉你現在這樣說 我覺得笑話 保證還有理由嗎 還有理由嗎現在是怎樣 栽培都這麼爽空污排放出來成本這麼低"},{"start":1034.383,"end":1042.848,"text":"超標了 連罰金都不繳超標了 開罰單而已現在連罰單都可以篡改 改改都連罰單都不划了 騙笑的這不是裝笑的嗎當時我們揭發數據可以造假 還不是你們不是你們去找的 是我們揭發的你們包庇的"},{"start":1062.469,"end":1079.602,"text":"2017年 從以前 從我連續監督系統到2017年揭發揭露這個弊案以前政府都在包庇我們我們揭發了 揭弊了你們還不改 還給我們改回來現在是怎樣啦 你快說啊 保證我很不願意拖時間 但是這個問題這麼嚴重 我沒有辦法接受"},{"start":1086.96,"end":1092.725,"text":"人民也沒辦法接受中華婚姻自己的鄉親也沒辦法接受好 委員這個我回去再來好好的了解再給委員做一個報告可以嗎我先跟你報告一下地方政府因為你要讓地方政府自己透過這個查核程式去檢驗"},{"start":1110.051,"end":1124.208,"text":"我現在說一個地方政府把整個大使的查核責任交給城市交給地方政府環保局來做你們說你們會提供查核工具你們提供城市這個工具是什麼"},{"start":1125.134,"end":1134.302,"text":"那也要有人操作地方環保局人力夠嗎專業夠嗎資料判讀的能力有嗎系統設定錯誤排除一本說明書就可以學會的嗎你們委外的SIMS計畫團隊到各地方環保局去做績效訪查時你們要寫什麼報告"},{"start":1147.693,"end":1171.448,"text":"你們沒有看你們的限時計畫的監測的團隊去查訪發現各環保局常因人力不足沒有辦法及時掌握公司場所的資料異常仍然高度依賴環境部這裡的警示系統所發出的餘限和斷線通知"},{"start":1174.919,"end":1180.141,"text":"現在連基本的鈔票問題都靠中央提供給他們才知道就沒人在看啦你們即便開發了異常數據儀表板"},{"start":1186.496,"end":1207.242,"text":"能夠顯示超標缺漏斷線等異常行為但是你們自己去檢查發現現場地方環保局的人力跟操作的能量仍然是短板即便環保局在第一線還沒有辦法能夠真正及時因應這你們自己去查的時候發現的對你"},{"start":1211.463,"end":1234.461,"text":"你們設計了一個系統那也體現了你們希望推動數據化管理的決心但是問題是地方環保局沒有專業能力可以跟得上這一些工具的使用你們的這個報告也提到系統的操作需要模擬程式資料比對模組查核案件的管理系統"},{"start":1235.422,"end":1248.133,"text":"還要能夠比對Modbus TCP協定下的傳輸數據我問你 你自己去集合地方環保局就發現都沒人力 也沒人 也沒專業你現在要再下放這個東西給他們"},{"start":1256.617,"end":1276.157,"text":"就現有的 你們就發現地方環保局常見數據缺漏狀態嘛 異常的問題有些地方環保局呢資料的維護仍然停留在上一個城市的版本都沒有update 沒有更新欸甚至跟廠商實際設備的資訊不一致欸"},{"start":1279.204,"end":1284.316,"text":"甚至部分的地方環保局在進行拔除訊號線測試中斷儀器跟測試大使的訊號傳輸查核過程中"},{"start":1291.107,"end":1311.909,"text":"出現了監測數據異常或監測數據狀態的代碼異常的狀況而且明顯不符合SIMS管理辦法的相關規範這都說明了地方環保局在現場操作上資訊落差沒有解決甚至可能是故意要掩蓋真正的污染的狀況"},{"start":1313.55,"end":1322.717,"text":"這不是沒發生過喔 我已經講過了台塑也不是只有六清喔台塑在南亞 在台畫廠都曾經透過大使的軟體 產出不實數據大規模造假 虛報監測值 欺騙政府而下面的人 眼睛都看不見 電台的人每天都在那裡聽不聽"},{"start":1342.523,"end":1347.365,"text":"保定你們不是不知道這些案例啊我們都講過了所以你們2020年才修法所以要求大使的系統必須經過驗證結果今天你把它刪除了"},{"start":1359.298,"end":1386.217,"text":"整個管理的制度又回到業者財團自己裝監測器 自己回報數據然後呢 地方自行查核 六天一天一天一天兩天一天一天一天一天兩天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天"},{"start":1389.304,"end":1404.607,"text":"環境部要給我 也不是給我給全國的人民一個說法作為SIMS連續監測系統制度中最重要的大使的第三方驗證查核機制被你們說三就三你要告訴大家你為什麼走回頭路為什麼走回去包庇業者包庇大財團有利於這些業者"},{"start":1418.792,"end":1442.091,"text":"可以造假的這一條路上呢為什麼為什麼改革到一半1月1號今年1月1號要施行1月2號就中斷不用再做像話嗎太粗魯了太暴力了1月1號要做1月2號整條辦法刪掉通通都改掉"},{"start":1443.271,"end":1451.858,"text":"你不覺得這樣太暴力嗎你們不覺得這樣子太赤裸裸的太難看了嗎吃相難看啊包庇的難看啊不對不覺得嗎包委員那個現在是用資訊系統在做處理啊那那個資料的部分也有在封存在處理那現在這個部分這個通通都資訊系統在處理喔有SIMS全部都資訊系統喔你不要說未來是資訊系統過去也是資訊系統"},{"start":1473.715,"end":1498.506,"text":"不要在這裡用這種文字來呼嚨大家你現在要把改革回來了嗎?改革能夠停滯嗎?還不是改革耶 監察制度都沒有改耶只是你的管理漏洞要堵起來耶叫你把你的系統管理的漏洞要堵起來耶你把這個漏洞本來要堵起來的 又把它拿掉了荒謬 華天下之大雞"},{"start":1503.01,"end":1513.812,"text":"欺騙人民啊這不是包庇什麼是包庇你現在要怎麼做你說你要回去調查我現在在問你 就我所講的這個你難道不覺得這個漏洞應該要堵起來嗎應不應該我回去了解好不好 給我一點時間你不覺得應該要 這個漏洞絕對不允許嗎你不覺得地方政府其實是沒有能力的"},{"start":1528.479,"end":1545.245,"text":"我們知道大陸政府 啊我們要蓋一條橋 大陸我們沒有錢啊大廈你可不可以幫我們補助一下好 就是這樣處理的啊 你不知道嗎你叫男人手短的業者 男人手短的政府真的去感到那個業者 可不可能 可不可能不然你說說嘛 更有可能 如果男人手短 吃人嘴軟"},{"start":1557.228,"end":1575.377,"text":"還是要監督什麼?那是爭笑的嘛你們走不進去 我也能懷疑 何理得懷疑?是得多少好錢啦石化產業 大財團鋼鐵業 多股票上市櫃公司的大財團失業費債務 多肥 紅包不知道算多少別再說其他的 對不對你們裡面的人拿錢嗎?不會不會?不要講得這麼快"},{"start":1585.803,"end":1590.167,"text":"這些官僚2017年都還在都是他們一路包庇到現在太難看了好 委員我回去回條解再給你委員報告好 謝謝好 謝謝我們林淑芬委員發言"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":682,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時13分）謝謝主席，是不是請彭部長？"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長好。大概2017年我在這裡也質詢過，就是產業界、工廠透過CEMS系統做的空污數據造假，那個時候我們就發現這些業者使用的DAHS系統竟然有即時值寫入的功能，而且不只可以即時的傳輸數據，還能夠回頭改掉原始資料庫裡面的資料。那我就要講，依照規定，各公私場所應設置連續自動監測設施，就是CEMS系統，這一些固定污染源從製程來看、從產業來看，大多數都集中在排放高污染、高風險的產業。我講白了，你們所列的這一些資料裡面，就是水泥製造業、水泥窯，然後是鋼鐵冶煉業、電弧爐，再來是事業廢棄物的焚化爐和一般廢棄物的焚化爐，最後是石化產業。大家都知道我剛剛所唸的，石化產業、鋼鐵業、水泥業、事業廢棄物焚化爐等這些都是大財團、大產業、大業主，管制他們必須24小時不間斷，都要即時監測他們的空污排放，為什麼？因為他們是高風險、高污染。","可是我們2017年就講了，而且廠商在你們設定的DAHS系統裡面可以篡改資料，2017年我們就講了、揭露了，台塑六輕廠屢屢發現超標，然後一超標就屢屢手動修正，繼而篡改數據、偽造監測數據，那我們裝CEMS要做什麼？如果可以這樣，所有的監測數據都可以回頭篡改，那我們24小時的監測算什麼？所以這不是一個小事，而是整個連續監測制度、連續監測系統的信任崩解，可以宣告這是造假的，如果可以回頭篡改，那麼這個監測是假的、沒用的、欺騙人民的！我現在是為了怕部長不知道，所以我再remind一下。"],["彭部長啓明：我知道。"],["林委員淑芬：這個CEMS系統透過DAHS系統，還要負責蒐集、運算、壓縮、分類、上傳，整個連續監測才能夠送到你們部裡面，所以這個CEMS連續自動監測系統能即時監控污染數據，但是數據不是直接就連線到你們這裡來喔！它還需要中介系統，就是DAHS系統，DAHS就是數據採集和處理系統，如果這個監測的大腦，就是DAHS系統可以被廠商動手腳或者是本身設計有漏洞，那政府接收這一些連續監測的數據就會失真。","請問在後面拍我的是哪一個單位？你是誰？對啦！你是哪個單位？時間暫停一下，主席，我有權宜問題要請教，當我在質詢這個問題，為什麼有人……我只是請教一下，我需要了解。立法院的問政是公開、可受公評，但我需要知道為什麼有人特別關注這個議題，主席請裁示，剛才站起來的那一位是記者嗎？對啦！哪個單位、哪個記者、哪一家報社？可以告訴我們嗎？我們議場裡面也發生過游智彬這種事件啊！我想要了解，主席請裁示，這個權宜問題先處理，特別關注我在質詢這個議題的這一個記者是哪個單位的記者？叫什麼名字？請主秘處理，主席，請你裁示。"],["主席（林委員月琴代）：請問一下，是記者嗎？"],["林委員淑芬：我只是想要了解而已，哪一個報社、哪一個傳媒？記者叫什麼名字？我想要了解你為什麼對於這個議題特別要拍林淑芬。"],["在場人員：私下跟委員報告。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有私下報告，公開在這裡，我想要公開了解。主席，我不希望在這裡占用大家太多時間，但是關係到委員的……也有可能是人身安全的問題啊！我接下來要打財團啊！就要針對鋼鐵業、石化業、事業廢棄物這些大財團，我就是要針對他們啊！"],["主席：是不是可以麻煩報出是哪一個……"],["林委員淑芬：主秘，到這裡面的每個人是誰，你都搞不清楚狀況，這樣行嗎？立委在這裡問政，沒有人身安全的疑慮嗎？"],["主席：不好意思，可不可以就站在那邊講你是哪個……"],["林委員淑芬：來，給主席看一下，可不可以交給主席看一下？沒關係，幫你們報社打知名度也沒關係。"],["主席：好，確定是記者，所以……"],["林委員淑芬：不是，我不能接受，你要告訴我叫什麼名字？"],["主席：臺灣時報。"],["林委員淑芬：臺灣時報還是臺灣醒報？"],["主席：時報。"],["林委員淑芬：臺灣時報？好。","來，我為什麼要講這個呢？從2017年我們揭露了這個弊案，發現你們的CEMS連續監測系統是造假的、是騙人民的之後，在我們不斷的努力要求跟監督之下，你們終於在2020年修改CEMS的管理辦法，在管理辦法第三十一條明定，你們的DAHS系統必須送交中央主管機關認可的第三方審查機構進行測試，而且要取得合格的證明文件。你們的修改文字如下「應經中央主管機關認可的驗證審查機構，依規定程序與事項完成系統測試，並取得驗證審查合格的文件證明。」不但如此，你們的辦法還要求每年至少一次送第三方查驗機構複查，連續兩年合格的才可免查，否則要重新送審。而且這個修正條文從114年1月1號正式施行，也就是你們從2017年經我們揭露，直到2020年才要改，而且是拖了8年到今年的1月1號才要施行。但是部長，現在你上任的時候，你做了什麼？你做了什麼！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員……"],["林委員淑芬：你在1月2號把這一個辦法整條刪除，走回頭路，經過8年才要改的，這8年的時間讓業者、讓行政部門環境部有時間慢慢的因應，給你8年的緩衝期，我們管制石化產業、焚化爐、事業廢棄業、鋼鐵業、水泥業，然後你們這8年做了什麼？8年後你直接說刪除、刪除，你也稍微解釋一下。部長，你不知道喔？下面的人到底在做什麼，你不知道？這是重大政策……"],["彭部長啓明：不是，報告委員……"],["林委員淑芬：這是重大變革，而且走回頭路，而且包庇業者、推卸責任，我今天很生氣喔！我們從2017年搞到2020年才搞好，結果你2025年竟然將整條辦法的文字全部刪除，所有的管制全部刪除，你現在是怎樣？把人民「裝痟的」，還是把立委「裝痟的」？你在玩假的，你把連續監測系統當兒戲！部長，你說！你不知道喔？你可以說你不知道，再叫業務單位來回答。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個細節我待會請我們司長來報告……"],["林委員淑芬：細節不需要報告。"],["彭部長啓明：不是，報告委員，第一個是我對於這種監測造假的是不手軟，所以我們前一陣子也重罰了幾家大型的公司……"],["林委員淑芬：監測造假不手軟，你不要講這個，你告訴我這一條你的政策裁定是基於什麼樣的考量？我知道啦，我告訴你，我來質詢難道是隨便來質詢的嗎？林淑芬的質詢，如果不專業，我敢來跟你說這個？你們用什麼理由把整條辦法刪除，你知道嗎？部長，你不知道啦！","業務單位回去，我沒有要跟你說。","你被下面的人欺騙，欺上瞞下，他們用什麼方式把這一個辦法刪除，我唸給你聽，非常的暴力、非常的赤裸裸、非常的直接。你們說現在能夠擔任DAHS審查機構的第三方驗證單位太少了，沒有人力來消化審查量。總共給你8年的時間輔導業者、給你8年的時間準備，到第8年要做了，你說沒有人可以來驗證、沒有人力可以消化、可以把關，你們這麼聰明，聰明到用這個理由就把審查制度改掉，改成說沒關係啦，這個DAHS系統交給地方環保局去查核就好了。當初也是這樣，2017年也是交給地方政府去監督，我講難聽一點，以台塑六輕為例，地方的建設如果需要錢跟六輕申請，拜託你來補助我們呢！它是拿幾億、幾億的給鄉鎮呢！台塑六輕不要忘記──一支煙囪給縣長、一支煙囪給議長、一支煙囪給鄉長，是這樣呢。你們現在說，我們不要再對石化業、不要再對鋼鐵業、要再對事業廢棄物的焚化爐用我們的連續監測系統抓得這麼緊，就交給地方政府去監督查核。","2017年抓到這些弊案，地方政府沒有能力監督，甚至還包庇，地方政府也沒有專業可以做，然後抓到他們造假，不斷的造假，所以才讓環境部願意納入第三方審查，確保公平、專業和不偽造、不篡改。現在你走回頭路，讓地方環保局自己用查核程式驗證，這個把整條辦法刪光的跟你當初公告的審查機制不一樣，天跟地的差別，差別是天跟地耶！好，我跟你報告完了，他的理由就是交給地方政府用程式去跑就好了。","部長，你怎麼看？你的任內1月1號要施行，1月2號把條文都改掉，都不用做了，整個連續監測系統可以繼續造假，沒那麼嚴格了，這樣空污不是用愛發電而已，還是用人民的肺來吸這一些廢氣。連續監測系統要監測什麼東西？各種製程應監測的項目很多，包括二氧化硫、總還原硫、氮氧化硫、氯化氫、一氧化碳、揮發性有機物質、排放流率等等，這些東西直接排放到空氣當中會造成污染，污染外部化，環境成本外部化，然後叫人民去承擔，我們也知道，對不對？你是支持這樣喔？高風險、高污染的我們才做24小時連續監測，高風險、高污染的，你把連續監測的制度、系統就這樣改掉。好不容易國家要認真把關了，制度都沒變，只是曾經發生了竄改，因為廠商台塑竄改監測數據，所以我們才要改善這個監督系統，要確保它是正確不能竄改的，沒有改變制度，只是認真去執行而已。現在是怎樣？你是在宣示要圖利石化業者、圖利鋼鐵業者、圖利事業廢棄物焚化爐的業者、圖利水泥窯的業者，是嗎？部長，你說說看，你現在是在「共阮裝痟的」嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個之前是DAHS，現在其實用資訊系統可以來做處理了，這個就是我所了解當時要改的一個原因，那委員提出的這個……"],["林委員淑芬：要改的原因不是這個喔，你們對外的講法不是喔，不要在那裡胡說八道，你們對外的講法是可以擔任DAHS審查機構的第三方驗證單位太少了，沒有人力消化全部的案量。你現在在這裡講的跟你對外宣稱的理由不一樣喔，今天不要在這裡「烏白講」！","現在是怎樣、你現在是怎樣，1月2號改掉了，你知道地方環保局的問題嗎？地方環保局的問題有什麼你知道嗎？你現在要交給地方、下放給地方，地方有沒有能力？有沒有能力？部長，顯然你都不知道這件事情茲事體大。財團爽得要死，人民的肺部肺癌，不要忘了，肺癌占臺灣癌症排行榜、排名是前三大，現在是怎樣？部長，你現在是支持用肺來吸空污嗎？用人民的肺來吸財團的空污嗎？現在你支持用人民的肺自己吸空污嗎？財團賺錢賺得要死，人民生病病得要死，是這樣子嗎？你們改這個是為了什麼目的的，你們說給我們聽一下。"],["彭部長啓明：其實第一個是當時檢測的量能是不夠的……"],["林委員淑芬：給你8年的時間準備還在講量能！給你從2020年制定這一條，到現在也四、五年了，還在講量能，我是今年改明年就施行嗎？不是喔！總共跑8年了，8年的時間讓你準備，你跟我說量能不足，「騙痟的」！全部CEMS監測系統，有幾個是監測空污的？你說量能不足，那全國是幾個？450個？"],["黃司長偉鳴：500支。"],["林委員淑芬：500支，沒辦法查驗？你現在這樣講，我覺得是笑話！部長，還有理由嗎？還有理由嗎？現在是怎樣？財團都這麼爽，空污排放出來成本這麼低，超標了連罰金都不繳，超標了就開罰單而已，現在連罰單都可以篡改，改一改連罰單都不罰了，「騙痟的」！這不是「裝痟的」嗎？","當時我們揭發數據可以造假，還不是你們去找的，是我們揭發的，你們包庇的，從有連續監測系統到2017年揭發、揭露這個弊案以前，政府都在包庇，我們揭發了、揭弊了，你們還不改，還給它改回來，現在是怎樣？你快講啦，部長。我很不願意拖時間，但是這個問題這麼嚴重，我沒辦法接受！人民也沒辦法接受！彰化、雲林、嘉義的鄉親也沒辦法接受！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個我回去再來好好的了解，再跟委員做一個報告。"],["林委員淑芬：我先跟你報告一下，因為你們要交給地方政府他們自己透過查核程式去檢驗，我現在說一個，地方政府把整個DAHS的查核責任交給程式、交給地方政府環保局來做，你們說你們會提供查核工具、你們提供程式，這個工具是什麼？那也要有人操作，地方環保局人力夠嗎？專業夠嗎？資料判讀的能力有嗎？系統設定錯誤排除，一本說明書就可以學會的嗎？你們委外的CEMS計畫團隊到各地方環保局去做績效訪查時，你們要寫成報告，而你們CEMS計畫的監測團隊去查訪時發現，各環保局常因人力不足，沒有辦法即時掌握公私場所的資料異常，仍然高度依賴環境部這裡的警示系統所發出的逾限和斷線通知，現在連基本的超標問題都靠中央提供給他們才知道，地方沒人在看啦！你們即便開發了異常數據儀表板，能夠顯示超標、缺漏、斷線等異常行為，但是你們自己去稽查發現，現場地方環保局的人力跟操作的能量仍然是短板，即便環保局在第一線，還沒有辦法能夠真正即時因應，這是你們自己去查的時候發現的。","第二，你們設計了一個系統，也體現了你們希望推動數據化管理的決心，但問題是地方環保局沒有專業能力可以跟得上這些工具的使用，你們的報告也提到，系統的操作需要模擬程式、資料比對模組、查核案件的管理系統，還要能夠比對Modbus TCP協定下的傳輸數據。我問你，你們自己去稽核地方環保局就發現他們都沒有能力，沒有人力也沒有專業，你們現在還要再下放這個東西給他們，就現有的部分，你們就發現地方環保局常見數據缺漏、狀態碼異常的問題，有些地方環保局資料的維護仍然停留在上一個程式的版本，都沒有更新（update）或是跟廠商實際設備的資訊不一致，甚至部分的地方環保局在進行拔除訊號線測試中斷儀器跟測試DAHS的訊號傳輸查核過程中，出現了監測數據異常或監測數據狀態的代碼異常的狀況，而且明顯不符合CEMS管理辦法的相關規範，這都說明了地方環保局在現場操作上資訊落差沒有解決，甚至可能是故意要掩蓋真正的污染狀況。這不是沒發生過，我已經講過了，台塑也不是只有六輕，台塑在南亞、在台化廠都曾經透過DAHS的軟體產出不實數據，大規模造假、虛報監測值，欺騙政府，而下面的人眼睛都看不到，上面的人耳朵也都聽不到。","部長，你們不是不知道這些案例，我們都講過了，所以你們2020年才修法，要求DAHS的系統必須經過驗證，結果今天你把它刪除了，整個管理的制度又回到業者、財團自己裝監測器，自己回報數據，然後地方自行查核，如果六輕一支煙囪給縣長、一支給議長、兩支給鄉長，現在這樣是要怎麼監督？你們走回頭路，過去就沒辦法了，你現在說這樣子可行，這是在欺騙誰？環境部要給我，也不是給我，而是給全國人民一個說法！作為CEMS連續監測系統制度中最重要的DAHS的第三方驗證查核機制被你們說刪就刪，你要告訴大家你為什麼走回頭路，為什麼走回去包庇業者、包庇大財團，有利於這些業者可以造假的這一條路上呢？為什麼？為什麼改革到一半，今年1月1號要施行，1月2號就中斷，不用再做，像話嗎？太粗魯了、太暴力了！1月1號要做，1月2號就整條刪掉，統統都改掉，你不覺得這樣太暴力嗎？你們不覺得這樣子太赤裸裸的、太難看了嗎？吃相難看啦！包庇得太難看啦！部長不覺得嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，現在是用資訊系統在做處理……"],["林委員淑芬：過去也是啦！"],["彭部長啓明：那個資料也有在封存、在處理，現在這個部分……"],["林委員淑芬：這個統統都是資訊系統在處理？有CEMS，全部都是資訊系統？"],["彭部長啓明：是、是。"],["林委員淑芬：你不要說未來是資訊系統，過去也是資訊系統，不要在這裡用這種文字來「唬弄」大家！你現在要把它改回來嗎？改革能夠停滯嗎？這還不是改革，監測制度都沒有改，只是你的管理漏洞要堵起來，叫你把你的系統管理的漏洞要堵起來，這個漏洞本來要堵起來，你又把它拿掉了，荒謬！滑天下之大稽！欺騙人民啦！這不是包庇，什麼是包庇？你現在要怎麼做？你說你要回去調查，我現在問你，就我所講的這個，你難道不覺得這個漏洞應該要堵起來嗎？應不應該？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我回去了解好不好？給我一點時間。"],["林委員淑芬：你不覺得這個漏洞絕對不允許嗎？你不覺得地方政府其實是沒有能力的？我們知道地方政府要蓋一座橋但是沒錢，台塑能不能補助我們一點？好。就是這樣處理的啊！你不知道嗎？你叫拿人手短的政府真的去監督那個業者，有可能嗎？有可能嗎？部長，你說看看，有可能嗎？如果拿人手短、吃人嘴軟，這樣要監督什麼？你「裝痟的」嘛！你們的業務單位，我也可以懷疑、合理的懷疑，是拿了多少好處？石化產業、大財團、鋼鐵業都是股票上市櫃公司的大財團，事業廢棄物多肥！紅包不知道送了多少，不要再說其他的，對不對？你們裡面有人拿錢嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：不會。"],["林委員淑芬：不會？不要講得這麼快，這些官僚2017年都還在，都是他們一路包庇到現在，太難看了！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我回去一定去了解，再給委員報告。"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員發言。","接下來請黃秀芳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","黃秀芳","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","張啓楷","楊曜","陳瑩","蘇清泉","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":427,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、外交部就「因應美國退出巴黎氣候協定並提出對等關稅，對國內\n產業淨零轉型造成衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、勞動部、教育部、經\n濟部針對「國內校園、賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物管理及防制精進作為」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00007"}}}