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\"end\": 199.5, \"text\": \"那台鐵有幾次這個吊車的事件因為我們發現到他的頻率很高所以我們在今年就啟動霸王條款那立案調查以上主委那我請教一下像這樣子一個院安會一個專業跟人力的資源的部分我記得上次我們一直在委員一直在討論到目前為止我們的相關的人力跟這個專業的這個資源的部分還有什麼不足的地方嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 174.195, \"end\": 174.375, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 174.375, \"end\": 174.635, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"鐵\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 174.635, \"end\": 174.995, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 174.995, \"end\": 175.355, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"吊\", \"start\": 175.355, \"end\": 175.695, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"車\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 175.695, \"end\": 175.855, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 175.855, \"end\": 176.035, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 176.035, \"end\": 176.675, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 176.675, \"end\": 176.796, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 176.796, 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\"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"息\", \"start\": 376.077, \"end\": 376.098, \"score\": 0.969}]}, {\"start\": 376.998, \"end\": 393.838, \"text\": \"這個部分的那個機制 主委要怎麼去做一個階段性的資訊公開的制度怎麼樣讓我們這個社會大眾能夠盡快了解一下這個進度這部分有沒有做這樣的一個規劃委員這個意見真的非常好因為我們是一個參與式的調查\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 376.998, \"end\": 377.118, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 377.118, \"end\": 377.239, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 377.239, \"end\": 377.339, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 377.339, \"end\": 377.839, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 377.839, \"end\": 379.021, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 379.021, \"end\": 379.121, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 379.121, \"end\": 379.301, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 379.301, \"end\": 379.401, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 379.401, \"end\": 379.621, \"score\": 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\"那麼調查過程中我們會有一個叫做調查期間的安全通告那最主要我們中間前半段還有一個事實資料報告但是事實資料就是會跟社會大眾講說這個案子最主要有幾個幾個幾個現象發生讓他知道那真正的原因因為我們的原因尤其是水路如果有當然我們要精準啊對對對我們有設計一場保險里面所以我們會不會要很精準\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 395.78, \"end\": 396.301, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 396.301, \"end\": 396.721, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 396.721, \"end\": 396.981, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 396.981, \"end\": 397.341, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 397.341, \"end\": 397.782, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 397.782, \"end\": 397.942, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 397.942, \"end\": 398.142, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"叫\", \"start\": 398.142, \"end\": 398.322, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 398.322, \"end\": 398.762, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 398.762, 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\"因\", \"start\": 413.214, \"end\": 413.474, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 413.474, \"end\": 413.694, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 413.694, \"end\": 413.814, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 413.814, \"end\": 414.375, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 414.375, \"end\": 414.395, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"尤\", \"start\": 414.395, \"end\": 414.515, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 414.515, \"end\": 414.635, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 414.635, \"end\": 414.795, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 414.795, \"end\": 415.015, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"路\", \"start\": 415.015, \"end\": 415.756, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 415.756, \"end\": 415.856, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 415.856, \"end\": 416.697, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 416.697, \"end\": 416.957, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 416.957, \"end\": 417.077, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 417.077, \"end\": 417.277, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 417.277, \"end\": 417.457, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"精\", \"start\": 417.457, \"end\": 417.717, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 417.717, \"end\": 418.038, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 418.038, \"end\": 418.518, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 418.518, \"end\": 418.838, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 418.838, \"end\": 419.979, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 419.979, \"end\": 420.259, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 420.259, \"end\": 420.54, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"險\"}, {\"word\": \"里\", \"start\": 420.54, \"end\": 420.66, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 420.66, \"end\": 420.8, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 420.8, \"end\": 420.86, \"score\": 0.701}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 420.86, \"end\": 420.92, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 420.92, \"end\": 421.22, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 421.22, \"end\": 421.3, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 421.3, \"end\": 421.42, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 421.42, \"end\": 421.6, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"精\", \"start\": 421.6, \"end\": 421.801, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 421.801, \"end\": 421.821, \"score\": 0.001}]}, {\"start\": 422.361, \"end\": 447.796, \"text\": \"但譬如說我們第一階段一個月之內能不能有個初步的一個報告三個月之內能不能有一個進度的一個報告我們其實有初步報告是啊 我覺得這樣對社會大眾有一個高台我們往這個方向來努力啦每個案子都有初步報告主委我再請教如果說你們報告交給主管機關之後我們的對方不採納我們這樣的一個建議我們有什麼樣的一個機制\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 422.361, \"end\": 422.561, 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{\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 523.177, \"end\": 523.438, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 523.438, \"end\": 523.678, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 523.678, \"end\": 523.818, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 523.818, \"end\": 523.938, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 523.938, \"end\": 524.319, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 524.319, \"end\": 524.659, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 524.659, \"end\": 524.799, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 524.799, \"end\": 524.819, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,830 --> 00:00:24,930\n謝謝主席有請我們林主委運安會林主委主委早主委我想這個運安會是我們台灣這個跨運具安全調查的最高的一個專責機構那我想這幾年下來我們也發現一個很嚴重的問題就是說這個\n\n2\n00:00:26,851 --> 00:00:51,003\n我們整個這個運輸安全制度上面存在高度的結果導向而不是一個風險的一個導向所以今天有幾個問題要請教一下主委我想這個剛剛我們林俊憲委員在提的我自己有發現好幾個問題就是說我們這個運安會的這個立案標準過於僵化明明很多案件這個存在危險存在這個已經出了事故\n\n3\n00:00:51,543 --> 00:01:19,313\n但是我們運安會卻沒有介入去做一個高風險的一個調查處理的一個機制問題到底出在哪裡主委委員講的確實沒有錯一般外面的認知是說這個影響一項危險為什麼沒有調查問題是它法律的規定在中大藝術法委員裡面有一個律定剛剛林俊賢委員講的也沒有說我們有另外一個罷免條款所以如果認為造成人民生命財產安全什麼我就應該要介入調查\n\n4\n00:01:20,073 --> 00:01:39,751\n確實是有這個機制主委你說我們說的都沒有不對但是要怎麼去改變這樣子一個制度我們有幾個案子今天早上講有一些電動車我們都主動去關切他說這個案子要調查確實是這樣主委我想像我剛剛我要舉一個例子就是我們去年\n\n5\n00:01:40,451 --> 00:02:02,450\n我們台鐵有一個內圍案我們有一個3334次的那個去建車的司機員沒有遵守這個SOP進行倒車那這個事情聽起來是說因為還好沒有出事情所以這個我們好像就把他當閒事之不及人家給處理\n\n6\n00:02:06,524 --> 00:02:27,415\n這個令維這個案子有調查嗎沒有調查沒有沒有對那像這樣的一個制度怎麼去處理我們都總是這樣被動這個被動式的一個調查這樣一個機制難道不應該檢討嗎還是我們應該建立一個高潛在風險的一個事故的一個立案機制我是不是請鐵道組的請說\n\n7\n00:02:30,911 --> 00:02:53,634\n委員跟委員報告內圍站這一個案子我們有主動去了解那過去台鐵有幾次的這個司機院停車位置不當不管他有沒有通報我們都會主動了解那沒有立案是因為他沒有到達立案的門檻但是我們有持續關注那是情況我們會啟用霸王條款去立案那我舉一個例子過去在年底\n\n8\n00:02:54,195 --> 00:03:19,500\n那台鐵有幾次這個吊車的事件因為我們發現到他的頻率很高所以我們在今年就啟動霸王條款那立案調查以上主委那我請教一下像這樣子一個院安會一個專業跟人力的資源的部分我記得上次我們一直在委員一直在討論到目前為止我們的相關的人力跟這個專業的這個資源的部分還有什麼不足的地方嗎\n\n9\n00:03:20,834 --> 00:03:32,951\n目前我們的力還OK但是委員剛剛提的風險導向確實是一個很好的idea因為因為我們如果調查到報告做最後導出根本遭遇的說我們\n\n10\n00:03:34,674 --> 00:03:50,077\n報告的過程中會有說跟風險因素有關係的我們也會有做重新分析所以類似的東西類似的事件出來的時候我們都會定性定量都會分析這邊還是要提醒一下主委因為我們現在的這個\n\n11\n00:03:51,698 --> 00:04:16,185\n運具的領域都不一樣啦所以需要的一個事故調查的人力的部分也要有涵蓋包含像智慧公路無人機還有自駕車這些的那個新興運具的一個調查的一個專業嗎是不是這樣才能夠去符合這樣的一個需求嘛對我們現在也有用AI的技術引進來每一個組都有在用開始在引導了所以這本應該還是要趕快去盤點應該去落實啦你沒有人是怎麼做這個工作\n\n12\n00:04:21,166 --> 00:04:44,738\n主委我想這不客氣應該是要保障就要來保障啦是是是那另外我想主委我們運安會是不是有面臨一個所謂的資料取得困難甚至是一個多頭管轄的問題議員的了解你們在調查這個鐵路事故的時候要跟台鐵索取這個行控資料調查非安的時候要跟民航局跟航管中心借這個資料\n\n13\n00:04:45,859 --> 00:05:14,270\n而且有時候還涉及外包的一個維修業者那主委如果一旦事故發生那院會能不能在第一時間取得完整沒有經過篡改的關鍵資料目前為止應該沒有取得都是OK的這樣是不是有必要我們來推動一個跨部會即時資料的調閱平台跟一個事故資料的備份機制來避免我們的調查過程受到阻礙這有沒有這個必要性\n\n14\n00:05:15,083 --> 00:05:42,860\n要不許執行長你看看這個因為這個涉及多模組的報告委員目前我們在包括航空包括鐵道的一個部分我們在取得資料的部分目前各單位都是相當的配合沒有問題是目前為止沒有聽到有任何的一個困難那有沒有必要來推動這個跨部會的即時資料調閱平台謝謝委員這邊的一個關心那如果未來我們有\n\n15\n00:05:44,553 --> 00:05:49,123\n有相關的這樣子一個需求的話我們是不是再請委員再協助本會\n\n16\n00:05:50,236 --> 00:06:16,098\n我想這個是很重要的一個機制啦這個我們也應該是要立即取得資料趕後來做調查那我另外還是要提醒主委因為我們現在我們運安會的這個調查報告有時候等半年甚至一年才會出來這個我覺得這個時效真的是太慢了而且對於我們社會來講大家知道事故發生之後就是要知道真相但是我們現在都一直在等等幾步等了沒這個消息\n\n17\n00:06:16,998 --> 00:06:33,838\n這個部分的那個機制主委要怎麼去做一個階段性的資訊公開的制度怎麼樣讓我們這個社會大眾能夠盡快了解一下這個進度這部分有沒有做這樣的一個規劃委員這個意見真的非常好因為我們是一個參與式的調查\n\n18\n00:06:35,780 --> 00:07:01,821\n那麼調查過程中我們會有一個叫做調查期間的安全通告那最主要我們中間前半段還有一個事實資料報告但是事實資料就是會跟社會大眾講說這個案子最主要有幾個幾個幾個現象發生讓他知道那真正的原因因為我們的原因尤其是水路如果有當然我們要精準啊對對對我們有設計一場保險里面所以我們會不會要很精準\n\n19\n00:07:02,361 --> 00:07:27,796\n但譬如說我們第一階段一個月之內能不能有個初步的一個報告三個月之內能不能有一個進度的一個報告我們其實有初步報告是啊我覺得這樣對社會大眾有一個高台我們往這個方向來努力啦每個案子都有初步報告主委我再請教如果說你們報告交給主管機關之後我們的對方不採納我們這樣的一個建議我們有什麼樣的一個機制\n\n20\n00:07:28,996 --> 00:07:50,281\n事實上我們的事實資料報告出來監察院都會拿去看看監察院就直接根據我們的事實資料報告就會跟欸你這個單位有行政疏失啊什麼但是我們不是要以處罰為目的我們是要找出根本的噪音這才是我們的關鍵啊對對是啦如果不接受報告這個事情後續還是不改進這個怎麼做處理\n\n21\n00:07:52,697 --> 00:08:12,137\n後續我們會流程上看看用怎麼樣請到對社會大眾關注的案子會讓他更體貼我們可以適時的可以總是找出問題一定要改進啊改進我們也要去追蹤啊要追蹤不然你們在報告有什麼意義沒意義啊事故還是會發生啊\n\n22\n00:08:13,437 --> 00:08:24,492\n這個螺絲還是會掉滿地啊那我們一般行政院列管的時候我們跟行政院列管的時候我們跟行政院講行政院也有政務委也在有時候會定期開這個會請交通部、鄉會主管那個局處會來\n\n23\n00:08:28,397 --> 00:08:44,819\n所以針對剛剛我提的那幾個點齁能不能在一個月之內給我們一個書面的報告針對我講的包含這個階段性的資訊公告還有一個所謂的一個調閱平台的部分我們是不是做一個研究好不好一個月之內給我一個報告好不好好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n830\t24930\t謝謝主席有請我們林主委運安會林主委主委早主委我想這個運安會是我們台灣這個跨運具安全調查的最高的一個專責機構那我想這幾年下來我們也發現一個很嚴重的問題就是說這個\n26851\t51003\t我們整個這個運輸安全制度上面存在高度的結果導向而不是一個風險的一個導向所以今天有幾個問題要請教一下主委我想這個剛剛我們林俊憲委員在提的我自己有發現好幾個問題就是說我們這個運安會的這個立案標準過於僵化明明很多案件這個存在危險存在這個已經出了事故\n51543\t79313\t但是我們運安會卻沒有介入去做一個高風險的一個調查處理的一個機制問題到底出在哪裡主委委員講的確實沒有錯一般外面的認知是說這個影響一項危險為什麼沒有調查問題是它法律的規定在中大藝術法委員裡面有一個律定剛剛林俊賢委員講的也沒有說我們有另外一個罷免條款所以如果認為造成人民生命財產安全什麼我就應該要介入調查\n80073\t99751\t確實是有這個機制主委你說我們說的都沒有不對但是要怎麼去改變這樣子一個制度我們有幾個案子今天早上講有一些電動車我們都主動去關切他說這個案子要調查確實是這樣主委我想像我剛剛我要舉一個例子就是我們去年\n100451\t122450\t我們台鐵有一個內圍案我們有一個3334次的那個去建車的司機員沒有遵守這個SOP進行倒車那這個事情聽起來是說因為還好沒有出事情所以這個我們好像就把他當閒 事之不及人家給處理\n126524\t147415\t這個令維這個案子有調查嗎沒有調查沒有沒有對那像這樣的一個制度怎麼去處理我們都總是這樣被動這個被動式的一個調查這樣一個機制難道不應該檢討嗎還是我們應該建立一個高潛在風險的一個事故的一個立案機制我是不是請鐵道組的請說\n150911\t173634\t委員跟委員報告內圍站這一個案子我們有主動去了解那過去台鐵有幾次的這個司機院停車位置不當不管他有沒有通報我們都會主動了解那沒有立案是因為他沒有到達立案的門檻但是我們有持續關注那是情況我們會啟用霸王條款去立案那我舉一個例子過去在年底\n174195\t199500\t那台鐵有幾次這個吊車的事件因為我們發現到他的頻率很高所以我們在今年就啟動霸王條款那立案調查以上主委那我請教一下像這樣子一個院安會一個專業跟人力的資源的部分我記得上次我們一直在委員一直在討論到目前為止我們的相關的人力跟這個專業的這個資源的部分還有什麼不足的地方嗎\n200834\t212951\t目前我們的力還OK但是委員剛剛提的風險導向確實是一個很好的idea因為因為我們如果調查到報告做最後導出根本遭遇的說我們\n214674\t230077\t報告的過程中會有說跟風險因素有關係的我們也會有做重新分析所以類似的東西類似的事件出來的時候我們都會定性定量都會分析這邊還是要提醒一下主委因為我們現在的這個\n231698\t256185\t運具的領域都不一樣啦所以需要的一個事故調查的人力的部分也要有涵蓋包含像智慧公路無人機還有自駕車這些的那個新興運具的一個調查的一個專業嗎是不是這樣才能夠去符合這樣的一個需求嘛對我們現在也有用AI的技術引進來每一個組都有在用開始在引導了所以這本應該還是要趕快去盤點應該去落實啦你沒有人是怎麼做這個工作\n261166\t284738\t主委 我想這不客氣 應該是要保障就要來保障啦是是是那另外我想 主委 我們運安會是不是有面臨一個所謂的資料取得困難甚至是一個多頭管轄的問題議員的了解 你們在調查這個鐵路事故的時候要跟台鐵索取這個行控資料調查非安的時候要跟民航局跟航管中心借這個資料\n285859\t314270\t而且有時候還涉及外包的一個維修業者那主委 如果一旦事故發生那院會能不能在第一時間取得完整沒有經過篡改的關鍵資料目前為止應該沒有 取得都是OK的這樣是不是有必要我們來推動一個跨部會即時資料的調閱平台跟一個事故資料的備份機制來避免我們的調查過程受到阻礙這有沒有這個必要性\n315083\t342860\t要不許執行長你看看這個因為這個涉及多模組的報告委員目前我們在包括航空包括鐵道的一個部分我們在取得資料的部分目前各單位都是相當的配合沒有問題是目前為止沒有聽到有任何的一個困難那有沒有必要來推動這個跨部會的即時資料調閱平台謝謝委員這邊的一個關心那如果未來我們有\n344553\t349123\t有相關的這樣子一個需求的話我們是不是再請委員再協助本會\n350236\t376098\t我想這個是很重要的一個機制啦這個我們也應該是要立即取得資料趕後來做調查那我另外還是要提醒主委因為我們現在我們運安會的這個調查報告有時候等半年甚至一年才會出來這個我覺得這個時效真的是太慢了而且對於我們社會來講大家知道事故發生之後就是要知道真相但是我們現在都一直在等等幾步等了沒這個消息\n376998\t393838\t這個部分的那個機制 主委要怎麼去做一個階段性的資訊公開的制度怎麼樣讓我們這個社會大眾能夠盡快了解一下這個進度這部分有沒有做這樣的一個規劃委員這個意見真的非常好因為我們是一個參與式的調查\n395780\t421821\t那麼調查過程中我們會有一個叫做調查期間的安全通告那最主要我們中間前半段還有一個事實資料報告但是事實資料就是會跟社會大眾講說這個案子最主要有幾個幾個幾個現象發生讓他知道那真正的原因因為我們的原因尤其是水路如果有當然我們要精準啊對對對我們有設計一場保險里面所以我們會不會要很精準\n422361\t447796\t但譬如說我們第一階段一個月之內能不能有個初步的一個報告三個月之內能不能有一個進度的一個報告我們其實有初步報告是啊 我覺得這樣對社會大眾有一個高台我們往這個方向來努力啦每個案子都有初步報告主委我再請教如果說你們報告交給主管機關之後我們的對方不採納我們這樣的一個建議我們有什麼樣的一個機制\n448996\t470281\t事實上我們的事實資料報告出來 監察院都會拿去看看監察院就直接根據我們的事實資料報告就會跟 欸你這個單位有行政疏失啊什麼但是我們不是要以處罰為目的 我們是要找出根本的噪音這才是我們的關鍵啊 對對是啦 如果不接受報告這個事情 後續還是不改進這個怎麼做處理\n472697\t492137\t後續我們會流程上看看用怎麼樣請到對社會大眾關注的案子會讓他更體貼我們可以適時的可以總是找出問題一定要改進啊改進我們也要去追蹤啊要追蹤不然你們在報告有什麼意義沒意義啊事故還是會發生啊\n493437\t504492\t這個螺絲還是會掉滿地啊那我們一般行政院列管的時候我們跟行政院列管的時候我們跟行政院講行政院也有政務委也在有時候會定期開這個會請交通部、鄉會主管那個局處會來\n508397\t524819\t所以針對剛剛我提的那幾個點齁能不能在一個月之內給我們一個書面的報告針對我講的包含這個階段性的資訊公告還有一個所謂的一個調閱平台的部分我們是不是做一個研究好不好一個月之內給我一個報告好不好好謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請我們林主委運安會林主委主委早主委我想這個運安會是我們台灣這個跨運具安全調查的最高的一個專責機構那我想這幾年下來我們也發現一個很嚴重的問題就是說這個\n我們整個這個運輸安全制度上面存在高度的結果導向而不是一個風險的一個導向所以今天有幾個問題要請教一下主委我想這個剛剛我們林俊憲委員在提的我自己有發現好幾個問題就是說我們這個運安會的這個立案標準過於僵化明明很多案件這個存在危險存在這個已經出了事故\n但是我們運安會卻沒有介入去做一個高風險的一個調查處理的一個機制問題到底出在哪裡主委委員講的確實沒有錯一般外面的認知是說這個影響一項危險為什麼沒有調查問題是它法律的規定在中大藝術法委員裡面有一個律定剛剛林俊賢委員講的也沒有說我們有另外一個罷免條款所以如果認為造成人民生命財產安全什麼我就應該要介入調查\n確實是有這個機制主委你說我們說的都沒有不對但是要怎麼去改變這樣子一個制度我們有幾個案子今天早上講有一些電動車我們都主動去關切他說這個案子要調查確實是這樣主委我想像我剛剛我要舉一個例子就是我們去年\n我們台鐵有一個內圍案我們有一個3334次的那個去建車的司機員沒有遵守這個SOP進行倒車那這個事情聽起來是說因為還好沒有出事情所以這個我們好像就把他當閒 事之不及人家給處理\n這個令維這個案子有調查嗎沒有調查沒有沒有對那像這樣的一個制度怎麼去處理我們都總是這樣被動這個被動式的一個調查這樣一個機制難道不應該檢討嗎還是我們應該建立一個高潛在風險的一個事故的一個立案機制我是不是請鐵道組的請說\n委員跟委員報告內圍站這一個案子我們有主動去了解那過去台鐵有幾次的這個司機院停車位置不當不管他有沒有通報我們都會主動了解那沒有立案是因為他沒有到達立案的門檻但是我們有持續關注那是情況我們會啟用霸王條款去立案那我舉一個例子過去在年底\n那台鐵有幾次這個吊車的事件因為我們發現到他的頻率很高所以我們在今年就啟動霸王條款那立案調查以上主委那我請教一下像這樣子一個院安會一個專業跟人力的資源的部分我記得上次我們一直在委員一直在討論到目前為止我們的相關的人力跟這個專業的這個資源的部分還有什麼不足的地方嗎\n目前我們的力還OK但是委員剛剛提的風險導向確實是一個很好的idea因為因為我們如果調查到報告做最後導出根本遭遇的說我們\n報告的過程中會有說跟風險因素有關係的我們也會有做重新分析所以類似的東西類似的事件出來的時候我們都會定性定量都會分析這邊還是要提醒一下主委因為我們現在的這個\n運具的領域都不一樣啦所以需要的一個事故調查的人力的部分也要有涵蓋包含像智慧公路無人機還有自駕車這些的那個新興運具的一個調查的一個專業嗎是不是這樣才能夠去符合這樣的一個需求嘛對我們現在也有用AI的技術引進來每一個組都有在用開始在引導了所以這本應該還是要趕快去盤點應該去落實啦你沒有人是怎麼做這個工作\n主委 我想這不客氣 應該是要保障就要來保障啦是是是那另外我想 主委 我們運安會是不是有面臨一個所謂的資料取得困難甚至是一個多頭管轄的問題議員的了解 你們在調查這個鐵路事故的時候要跟台鐵索取這個行控資料調查非安的時候要跟民航局跟航管中心借這個資料\n而且有時候還涉及外包的一個維修業者那主委 如果一旦事故發生那院會能不能在第一時間取得完整沒有經過篡改的關鍵資料目前為止應該沒有 取得都是OK的這樣是不是有必要我們來推動一個跨部會即時資料的調閱平台跟一個事故資料的備份機制來避免我們的調查過程受到阻礙這有沒有這個必要性\n要不許執行長你看看這個因為這個涉及多模組的報告委員目前我們在包括航空包括鐵道的一個部分我們在取得資料的部分目前各單位都是相當的配合沒有問題是目前為止沒有聽到有任何的一個困難那有沒有必要來推動這個跨部會的即時資料調閱平台謝謝委員這邊的一個關心那如果未來我們有\n有相關的這樣子一個需求的話我們是不是再請委員再協助本會\n我想這個是很重要的一個機制啦這個我們也應該是要立即取得資料趕後來做調查那我另外還是要提醒主委因為我們現在我們運安會的這個調查報告有時候等半年甚至一年才會出來這個我覺得這個時效真的是太慢了而且對於我們社會來講大家知道事故發生之後就是要知道真相但是我們現在都一直在等等幾步等了沒這個消息\n這個部分的那個機制 主委要怎麼去做一個階段性的資訊公開的制度怎麼樣讓我們這個社會大眾能夠盡快了解一下這個進度這部分有沒有做這樣的一個規劃委員這個意見真的非常好因為我們是一個參與式的調查\n那麼調查過程中我們會有一個叫做調查期間的安全通告那最主要我們中間前半段還有一個事實資料報告但是事實資料就是會跟社會大眾講說這個案子最主要有幾個幾個幾個現象發生讓他知道那真正的原因因為我們的原因尤其是水路如果有當然我們要精準啊對對對我們有設計一場保險里面所以我們會不會要很精準\n但譬如說我們第一階段一個月之內能不能有個初步的一個報告三個月之內能不能有一個進度的一個報告我們其實有初步報告是啊 我覺得這樣對社會大眾有一個高台我們往這個方向來努力啦每個案子都有初步報告主委我再請教如果說你們報告交給主管機關之後我們的對方不採納我們這樣的一個建議我們有什麼樣的一個機制\n事實上我們的事實資料報告出來 監察院都會拿去看看監察院就直接根據我們的事實資料報告就會跟 欸你這個單位有行政疏失啊什麼但是我們不是要以處罰為目的 我們是要找出根本的噪音這才是我們的關鍵啊 對對是啦 如果不接受報告這個事情 後續還是不改進這個怎麼做處理\n後續我們會流程上看看用怎麼樣請到對社會大眾關注的案子會讓他更體貼我們可以適時的可以總是找出問題一定要改進啊改進我們也要去追蹤啊要追蹤不然你們在報告有什麼意義沒意義啊事故還是會發生啊\n這個螺絲還是會掉滿地啊那我們一般行政院列管的時候我們跟行政院列管的時候我們跟行政院講行政院也有政務委也在有時候會定期開這個會請交通部、鄉會主管那個局處會來\n所以針對剛剛我提的那幾個點齁能不能在一個月之內給我們一個書面的報告針對我講的包含這個階段性的資訊公告還有一個所謂的一個調閱平台的部分我們是不是做一個研究好不好一個月之內給我一個報告好不好好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.830 --> 00:24.930\n謝謝主席有請我們林主委運安會林主委主委早主委我想這個運安會是我們台灣這個跨運具安全調查的最高的一個專責機構那我想這幾年下來我們也發現一個很嚴重的問題就是說這個\n\n00:26.851 --> 00:51.003\n我們整個這個運輸安全制度上面存在高度的結果導向而不是一個風險的一個導向所以今天有幾個問題要請教一下主委我想這個剛剛我們林俊憲委員在提的我自己有發現好幾個問題就是說我們這個運安會的這個立案標準過於僵化明明很多案件這個存在危險存在這個已經出了事故\n\n00:51.543 --> 01:19.313\n但是我們運安會卻沒有介入去做一個高風險的一個調查處理的一個機制問題到底出在哪裡主委委員講的確實沒有錯一般外面的認知是說這個影響一項危險為什麼沒有調查問題是它法律的規定在中大藝術法委員裡面有一個律定剛剛林俊賢委員講的也沒有說我們有另外一個罷免條款所以如果認為造成人民生命財產安全什麼我就應該要介入調查\n\n01:20.073 --> 01:39.751\n確實是有這個機制主委你說我們說的都沒有不對但是要怎麼去改變這樣子一個制度我們有幾個案子今天早上講有一些電動車我們都主動去關切他說這個案子要調查確實是這樣主委我想像我剛剛我要舉一個例子就是我們去年\n\n01:40.451 --> 02:02.450\n我們台鐵有一個內圍案我們有一個3334次的那個去建車的司機員沒有遵守這個SOP進行倒車那這個事情聽起來是說因為還好沒有出事情所以這個我們好像就把他當閒事之不及人家給處理\n\n02:06.524 --> 02:27.415\n這個令維這個案子有調查嗎沒有調查沒有沒有對那像這樣的一個制度怎麼去處理我們都總是這樣被動這個被動式的一個調查這樣一個機制難道不應該檢討嗎還是我們應該建立一個高潛在風險的一個事故的一個立案機制我是不是請鐵道組的請說\n\n02:30.911 --> 02:53.634\n委員跟委員報告內圍站這一個案子我們有主動去了解那過去台鐵有幾次的這個司機院停車位置不當不管他有沒有通報我們都會主動了解那沒有立案是因為他沒有到達立案的門檻但是我們有持續關注那是情況我們會啟用霸王條款去立案那我舉一個例子過去在年底\n\n02:54.195 --> 03:19.500\n那台鐵有幾次這個吊車的事件因為我們發現到他的頻率很高所以我們在今年就啟動霸王條款那立案調查以上主委那我請教一下像這樣子一個院安會一個專業跟人力的資源的部分我記得上次我們一直在委員一直在討論到目前為止我們的相關的人力跟這個專業的這個資源的部分還有什麼不足的地方嗎\n\n03:20.834 --> 03:32.951\n目前我們的力還OK但是委員剛剛提的風險導向確實是一個很好的idea因為因為我們如果調查到報告做最後導出根本遭遇的說我們\n\n03:34.674 --> 03:50.077\n報告的過程中會有說跟風險因素有關係的我們也會有做重新分析所以類似的東西類似的事件出來的時候我們都會定性定量都會分析這邊還是要提醒一下主委因為我們現在的這個\n\n03:51.698 --> 04:16.185\n運具的領域都不一樣啦所以需要的一個事故調查的人力的部分也要有涵蓋包含像智慧公路無人機還有自駕車這些的那個新興運具的一個調查的一個專業嗎是不是這樣才能夠去符合這樣的一個需求嘛對我們現在也有用AI的技術引進來每一個組都有在用開始在引導了所以這本應該還是要趕快去盤點應該去落實啦你沒有人是怎麼做這個工作\n\n04:21.166 --> 04:44.738\n主委我想這不客氣應該是要保障就要來保障啦是是是那另外我想主委我們運安會是不是有面臨一個所謂的資料取得困難甚至是一個多頭管轄的問題議員的了解你們在調查這個鐵路事故的時候要跟台鐵索取這個行控資料調查非安的時候要跟民航局跟航管中心借這個資料\n\n04:45.859 --> 05:14.270\n而且有時候還涉及外包的一個維修業者那主委如果一旦事故發生那院會能不能在第一時間取得完整沒有經過篡改的關鍵資料目前為止應該沒有取得都是OK的這樣是不是有必要我們來推動一個跨部會即時資料的調閱平台跟一個事故資料的備份機制來避免我們的調查過程受到阻礙這有沒有這個必要性\n\n05:15.083 --> 05:42.860\n要不許執行長你看看這個因為這個涉及多模組的報告委員目前我們在包括航空包括鐵道的一個部分我們在取得資料的部分目前各單位都是相當的配合沒有問題是目前為止沒有聽到有任何的一個困難那有沒有必要來推動這個跨部會的即時資料調閱平台謝謝委員這邊的一個關心那如果未來我們有\n\n05:44.553 --> 05:49.123\n有相關的這樣子一個需求的話我們是不是再請委員再協助本會\n\n05:50.236 --> 06:16.098\n我想這個是很重要的一個機制啦這個我們也應該是要立即取得資料趕後來做調查那我另外還是要提醒主委因為我們現在我們運安會的這個調查報告有時候等半年甚至一年才會出來這個我覺得這個時效真的是太慢了而且對於我們社會來講大家知道事故發生之後就是要知道真相但是我們現在都一直在等等幾步等了沒這個消息\n\n06:16.998 --> 06:33.838\n這個部分的那個機制主委要怎麼去做一個階段性的資訊公開的制度怎麼樣讓我們這個社會大眾能夠盡快了解一下這個進度這部分有沒有做這樣的一個規劃委員這個意見真的非常好因為我們是一個參與式的調查\n\n06:35.780 --> 07:01.821\n那麼調查過程中我們會有一個叫做調查期間的安全通告那最主要我們中間前半段還有一個事實資料報告但是事實資料就是會跟社會大眾講說這個案子最主要有幾個幾個幾個現象發生讓他知道那真正的原因因為我們的原因尤其是水路如果有當然我們要精準啊對對對我們有設計一場保險里面所以我們會不會要很精準\n\n07:02.361 --> 07:27.796\n但譬如說我們第一階段一個月之內能不能有個初步的一個報告三個月之內能不能有一個進度的一個報告我們其實有初步報告是啊我覺得這樣對社會大眾有一個高台我們往這個方向來努力啦每個案子都有初步報告主委我再請教如果說你們報告交給主管機關之後我們的對方不採納我們這樣的一個建議我們有什麼樣的一個機制\n\n07:28.996 --> 07:50.281\n事實上我們的事實資料報告出來監察院都會拿去看看監察院就直接根據我們的事實資料報告就會跟欸你這個單位有行政疏失啊什麼但是我們不是要以處罰為目的我們是要找出根本的噪音這才是我們的關鍵啊對對是啦如果不接受報告這個事情後續還是不改進這個怎麼做處理\n\n07:52.697 --> 08:12.137\n後續我們會流程上看看用怎麼樣請到對社會大眾關注的案子會讓他更體貼我們可以適時的可以總是找出問題一定要改進啊改進我們也要去追蹤啊要追蹤不然你們在報告有什麼意義沒意義啊事故還是會發生啊\n\n08:13.437 --> 08:24.492\n這個螺絲還是會掉滿地啊那我們一般行政院列管的時候我們跟行政院列管的時候我們跟行政院講行政院也有政務委也在有時候會定期開這個會請交通部、鄉會主管那個局處會來\n\n08:28.397 --> 08:44.819\n所以針對剛剛我提的那幾個點齁能不能在一個月之內給我們一個書面的報告針對我講的包含這個階段性的資訊公告還有一個所謂的一個調閱平台的部分我們是不是做一個研究好不好一個月之內給我一個報告好不好好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.83,"end":24.93,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們林主委運安會林主委主委早主委我想這個運安會是我們台灣這個跨運具安全調查的最高的一個專責機構那我想這幾年下來我們也發現一個很嚴重的問題就是說這個"},{"start":26.851,"end":51.003,"text":"我們整個這個運輸安全制度上面存在高度的結果導向而不是一個風險的一個導向所以今天有幾個問題要請教一下主委我想這個剛剛我們林俊憲委員在提的我自己有發現好幾個問題就是說我們這個運安會的這個立案標準過於僵化明明很多案件這個存在危險存在這個已經出了事故"},{"start":51.543,"end":79.313,"text":"但是我們運安會卻沒有介入去做一個高風險的一個調查處理的一個機制問題到底出在哪裡主委委員講的確實沒有錯一般外面的認知是說這個影響一項危險為什麼沒有調查問題是它法律的規定在中大藝術法委員裡面有一個律定剛剛林俊賢委員講的也沒有說我們有另外一個罷免條款所以如果認為造成人民生命財產安全什麼我就應該要介入調查"},{"start":80.073,"end":99.751,"text":"確實是有這個機制主委你說我們說的都沒有不對但是要怎麼去改變這樣子一個制度我們有幾個案子今天早上講有一些電動車我們都主動去關切他說這個案子要調查確實是這樣主委我想像我剛剛我要舉一個例子就是我們去年"},{"start":100.451,"end":122.45,"text":"我們台鐵有一個內圍案我們有一個3334次的那個去建車的司機員沒有遵守這個SOP進行倒車那這個事情聽起來是說因為還好沒有出事情所以這個我們好像就把他當閒 事之不及人家給處理"},{"start":126.524,"end":147.415,"text":"這個令維這個案子有調查嗎沒有調查沒有沒有對那像這樣的一個制度怎麼去處理我們都總是這樣被動這個被動式的一個調查這樣一個機制難道不應該檢討嗎還是我們應該建立一個高潛在風險的一個事故的一個立案機制我是不是請鐵道組的請說"},{"start":150.911,"end":173.634,"text":"委員跟委員報告內圍站這一個案子我們有主動去了解那過去台鐵有幾次的這個司機院停車位置不當不管他有沒有通報我們都會主動了解那沒有立案是因為他沒有到達立案的門檻但是我們有持續關注那是情況我們會啟用霸王條款去立案那我舉一個例子過去在年底"},{"start":174.195,"end":199.5,"text":"那台鐵有幾次這個吊車的事件因為我們發現到他的頻率很高所以我們在今年就啟動霸王條款那立案調查以上主委那我請教一下像這樣子一個院安會一個專業跟人力的資源的部分我記得上次我們一直在委員一直在討論到目前為止我們的相關的人力跟這個專業的這個資源的部分還有什麼不足的地方嗎"},{"start":200.834,"end":212.951,"text":"目前我們的力還OK但是委員剛剛提的風險導向確實是一個很好的idea因為因為我們如果調查到報告做最後導出根本遭遇的說我們"},{"start":214.674,"end":230.077,"text":"報告的過程中會有說跟風險因素有關係的我們也會有做重新分析所以類似的東西類似的事件出來的時候我們都會定性定量都會分析這邊還是要提醒一下主委因為我們現在的這個"},{"start":231.698,"end":256.185,"text":"運具的領域都不一樣啦所以需要的一個事故調查的人力的部分也要有涵蓋包含像智慧公路無人機還有自駕車這些的那個新興運具的一個調查的一個專業嗎是不是這樣才能夠去符合這樣的一個需求嘛對我們現在也有用AI的技術引進來每一個組都有在用開始在引導了所以這本應該還是要趕快去盤點應該去落實啦你沒有人是怎麼做這個工作"},{"start":261.166,"end":284.738,"text":"主委 我想這不客氣 應該是要保障就要來保障啦是是是那另外我想 主委 我們運安會是不是有面臨一個所謂的資料取得困難甚至是一個多頭管轄的問題議員的了解 你們在調查這個鐵路事故的時候要跟台鐵索取這個行控資料調查非安的時候要跟民航局跟航管中心借這個資料"},{"start":285.859,"end":314.27,"text":"而且有時候還涉及外包的一個維修業者那主委 如果一旦事故發生那院會能不能在第一時間取得完整沒有經過篡改的關鍵資料目前為止應該沒有 取得都是OK的這樣是不是有必要我們來推動一個跨部會即時資料的調閱平台跟一個事故資料的備份機制來避免我們的調查過程受到阻礙這有沒有這個必要性"},{"start":315.083,"end":342.86,"text":"要不許執行長你看看這個因為這個涉及多模組的報告委員目前我們在包括航空包括鐵道的一個部分我們在取得資料的部分目前各單位都是相當的配合沒有問題是目前為止沒有聽到有任何的一個困難那有沒有必要來推動這個跨部會的即時資料調閱平台謝謝委員這邊的一個關心那如果未來我們有"},{"start":344.553,"end":349.123,"text":"有相關的這樣子一個需求的話我們是不是再請委員再協助本會"},{"start":350.236,"end":376.098,"text":"我想這個是很重要的一個機制啦這個我們也應該是要立即取得資料趕後來做調查那我另外還是要提醒主委因為我們現在我們運安會的這個調查報告有時候等半年甚至一年才會出來這個我覺得這個時效真的是太慢了而且對於我們社會來講大家知道事故發生之後就是要知道真相但是我們現在都一直在等等幾步等了沒這個消息"},{"start":376.998,"end":393.838,"text":"這個部分的那個機制 主委要怎麼去做一個階段性的資訊公開的制度怎麼樣讓我們這個社會大眾能夠盡快了解一下這個進度這部分有沒有做這樣的一個規劃委員這個意見真的非常好因為我們是一個參與式的調查"},{"start":395.78,"end":421.821,"text":"那麼調查過程中我們會有一個叫做調查期間的安全通告那最主要我們中間前半段還有一個事實資料報告但是事實資料就是會跟社會大眾講說這個案子最主要有幾個幾個幾個現象發生讓他知道那真正的原因因為我們的原因尤其是水路如果有當然我們要精準啊對對對我們有設計一場保險里面所以我們會不會要很精準"},{"start":422.361,"end":447.796,"text":"但譬如說我們第一階段一個月之內能不能有個初步的一個報告三個月之內能不能有一個進度的一個報告我們其實有初步報告是啊 我覺得這樣對社會大眾有一個高台我們往這個方向來努力啦每個案子都有初步報告主委我再請教如果說你們報告交給主管機關之後我們的對方不採納我們這樣的一個建議我們有什麼樣的一個機制"},{"start":448.996,"end":470.281,"text":"事實上我們的事實資料報告出來 監察院都會拿去看看監察院就直接根據我們的事實資料報告就會跟 欸你這個單位有行政疏失啊什麼但是我們不是要以處罰為目的 我們是要找出根本的噪音這才是我們的關鍵啊 對對是啦 如果不接受報告這個事情 後續還是不改進這個怎麼做處理"},{"start":472.697,"end":492.137,"text":"後續我們會流程上看看用怎麼樣請到對社會大眾關注的案子會讓他更體貼我們可以適時的可以總是找出問題一定要改進啊改進我們也要去追蹤啊要追蹤不然你們在報告有什麼意義沒意義啊事故還是會發生啊"},{"start":493.437,"end":504.492,"text":"這個螺絲還是會掉滿地啊那我們一般行政院列管的時候我們跟行政院列管的時候我們跟行政院講行政院也有政務委也在有時候會定期開這個會請交通部、鄉會主管那個局處會來"},{"start":508.397,"end":524.819,"text":"所以針對剛剛我提的那幾個點齁能不能在一個月之內給我們一個書面的報告針對我講的包含這個階段性的資訊公告還有一個所謂的一個調閱平台的部分我們是不是做一個研究好不好一個月之內給我一個報告好不好好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":502,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時）謝謝主席。有請林主委。"],["主席：請運安會林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：主委早。主委，運安會是臺灣跨運具安全調查的最高專責機構，這幾年下來，我們發現一個很嚴重的問題，就是整個運輸安全制度上面存在高度的結果導向，而不是風險導向，所以今天有幾個問題要請教一下主委。剛剛林俊憲委員提的，我自己也發現好幾個問題，就是運安會的立案標準過於僵化，明明很多案件存在危險，已經出了事故，運安會卻沒有介入進行高風險調查處理的機制。主委，問題到底出在哪裡？"],["林主任委員信得：委員講的確實沒有錯，一般外面的認知是這個有影響，運安會為什麼沒有調查？但問題是法律規定在重大運輸範圍裡面，它有一個律定。剛剛林俊憲委員講的也沒有錯，我們有另外一個霸王條款，如果認為造成人民生命、財產、安全或什麼的，我們就應該要介入調查，確實是有這個機制。"],["徐委員富癸：對啊！主委，你說我們講的都沒錯，但是要怎麼去改變這樣的制度？"],["林主任委員信得：對、對！有幾個案子，例如今天早上講的有一些電動車，我們都主動去關切，說這個案子要調查，確實是這樣子。"],["徐委員富癸：好，主委，像我剛剛要舉的例子，去年臺鐵有一個內惟案，這個事故主委知道嗎？有一台3334次的區間車司機員沒有遵守SOP倒車，聽起來這件事情到最後還好沒有出事情，所以你們好像就把它等閒視之、沒有認真處理，有這樣的情形嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：沒有調查。"],["徐委員富癸：像這樣的制度怎麼去處理？你們總是這麼被動式的調查，這樣的機制難道不應該檢討嗎？還是你們應該建立一個高潛在風險事故的立案機制？"],["林主任委員信得：我是不是請鐵道組的人說明？"],["徐委員富癸：好，請說。"],["吳組長吉村：委員好。跟委員報告，內惟站這一個案子，我們有主動去瞭解，過去臺鐵有幾次司機員停車位置不當，不管他有沒有通報，我們都會主動瞭解，沒有立案是因為它沒有到達立案的門檻，但是我們有持續關注，我們會視情況啟用霸王條款去立案。我舉一個例子，過去在年底臺鐵有幾次調車的事件，因為我們發現到它的頻率很高，所以我們在今年就啟動霸王條款來立案調查，以上。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我請教一下，像運安會專業資源跟人力的部分，我記得上次我們在委員會一直在討論，到目前為止，相關的人力跟專業資源的部分還有什麼不足的地方嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：目前我們人力還OK，但是委員剛剛提的風險導向確實是一個很好的idea，如果調查報告最後找出根本的肇因，在我們報告的過程中提到跟風險因素有關係時，我們也會進行逐件分析，所以類似事件出來的時候，我們對定性、定量都會做。"],["徐委員富癸：是啊！在此還是要提醒一下主委，現在運具的領域都不一樣，需要事故調查的人力也要包含像智慧公路、無人機，還有自駕車這些新興運具的調查專業，是不是這樣？"],["林主任委員信得：沒有錯。"],["徐委員富癸：才能夠符合這樣的需求嘛！"],["林主任委員信得：對，我們現在也引用AI的技術進來，每一個組都有在用，開始在引導了。"],["徐委員富癸：這部分還是應該要趕快去盤點、應該去落實，如果沒有人力要怎麼進行這些工作？主委，我想這不用客氣，如果需要補人就應該要補人啦！"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，主委，運安會是不是有面臨資料取得困難，甚至是多頭管轄的問題？以我們的瞭解，你們在調查鐵路事故的時候，要跟臺鐵索取行控資料，調查飛安的時候，要跟民航局跟航管中心借資料，而且有時候還會涉及外包的維修業者。主委，一旦事故發生，運安會能不能在第一時間取得完整、沒有經過篡改的關鍵資料？"],["林主任委員信得：目前為止，應該沒有……"],["徐委員富癸：應該沒有這個現象啦？"],["林主任委員信得：取得都是OK的。"],["徐委員富癸：是不是有必要推動跨部會即時資料的調閱平臺跟事故資料的備份機制，避免你們的調查過程受到阻礙，有沒有這個必要性？"],["林主任委員信得：要不要請執行長來看看？因為這個涉及到多模組的部分。"],["林執行長沛達：報告委員，包括航空、鐵道，我們在取得資料的部分，目前各單位都相當地配合。"],["徐委員富癸：沒有問題？"],["林執行長沛達：是。目前為止，沒有聽到有任何的困難。"],["徐委員富癸：有沒有必要推動跨部會的即時資料調閱平臺？"],["林執行長沛達：謝謝委員的關心，如果未來我們有相關的需求，是不是再請委員協助本會？"],["徐委員富癸：我想這個是很重要的機制，你們也應該要立即取得資料，趕快調查。另外，我還是要提醒主委，運安會的調查報告有時候要等半年，甚至一年才會出來，我覺得這個時效真的是太慢了。對社會來講，事故發生之後，大家就是要知道真相，但是我們現在都一直在等，等半天也等不到消息。對這部分的機制，主委，要怎麼去做一個階段性資訊公開的制度、怎麼樣讓社會大眾能夠儘快瞭解相關進度？這部分有沒有這樣的規劃？"],["林主任委員信得：委員這個意見真的非常好，我們是參與式調查，在調查過程中，我們會有叫作調查期間的安全通告，最主要我們在前半段還有一個事實資料報告，事實資料就是會跟社會大眾講這個案子最主要有幾個現象發生，讓大家知道，至於真正的原因，尤其是水路，如果有……"],["徐委員富癸：當然你們要精準啦！對，但是前面……"],["林主任委員信得：對！有涉及賠償、保險理賠，所以我們後面要很精準。"],["徐委員富癸：譬如說，第一階段在一個月之內能不能有一個初步報告、三個月之內能不能有一個進度的報告，是不是可以這樣？"],["林主任委員信得：我們確實有初步報告。"],["徐委員富癸：是啊！我覺得這樣對社會大眾也有一個交代。"],["林主任委員信得：沒有錯，我們有處理。"],["徐委員富癸：你們往這個方向來努力啦！"],["林主任委員信得：每案子都有初步報告。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我再請教，如果你們的報告交給主管機關之後，對方不採納你們這樣的建議，你們有什麼樣的機制？"],["林主任委員信得：事實上，我們的事實資料報告出來後，監察院都會拿去看，監察院就直接根據我們的事實資料報告，跟這個單位說有行政疏失或什麼的，但我們不是要以處罰為目的，而是要找出根本的肇因。"],["徐委員富癸：這才是你們的關鍵啊！"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["徐委員富癸：是啊，那有沒有遇到不接受報告的事情？後續如果還是沒有改進怎麼處理？"],["林主任委員信得：我們會從流程上看看用怎麼樣的方式，對社會大眾關注的案子會讓它更體貼，我們可以適時的……"],["徐委員富癸：總是要找出問題，一定要改進啊！"],["林主任委員信得：對！"],["徐委員富癸：有改進，你們也要去追蹤啊！沒有追蹤，你們做這份報告有什麼意義？就沒意義啊！"],["林主任委員信得：有啦。"],["徐委員富癸：事故還是會發生啊！螺絲還是會掉滿地啊！"],["林主任委員信得：沒有錯，一般我們跟行政院列管的時候，我們會跟行政院講，行政院政務委員有時候也會定期開會，請交通部相關主管的局處來，他們知道啊。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，針對剛剛我提的那幾個點，能不能在一個月之內給我們一份書面報告，針對我講的，包含階段性的資訊公告及調閱平臺的部分，你們是不是做一個研究，好不好？一個月之內給我一份報告，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：沒問題。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["林主任委員信得：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員。","現在請廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":470,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","魯明哲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","林俊憲","徐富癸","廖先翔","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","黃健豪","葉元之","張啓楷"],"page_start":421,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143901_00013"}}}