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00:00:05,430\n好謝謝主席主席我們請病安會主委林主委好林主委\n\n2\n00:00:11,168 --> 00:00:34,074\n主委好主委這個今天針對運安會部分本席有一個疑問我想剛剛前面有一個委員提到說就是列管的改善事故台鐵被列管的改善事件裡面有一項包含就是說列車駕駛是能不能依照運安會的調查報告要求來安裝聲音影像的紀錄器這部分剛好今天我也看到一個報導我想確認一下這今天報導我知道運安會知不知道\n\n3\n00:00:35,614 --> 00:01:03,055\n雙鐵的狀況多那交通部長也希望說價值上能夠裝監視器那我想請教一下因為這個案子我想從當年從這個普悠瑪事故之後107年到現在今天這麼多年了那我想你們在去年也提出了相關的修法的一個方向那我想問一下到底目前的狀況卡在哪裡那為什麼後來又被退回來是不是公會的反彈還是有哪裡公眾出現問題所以導致這個檢討報告到目前為止雖然提出了檢討但是實際上\n\n4\n00:01:04,716 --> 00:01:27,794\n好像要在這個駕駛室來安裝相關的監視影像系統好像有困難是不是主委我們的建議是給鐵道局那鐵道局他當然他有他的考量他跟公衛這邊跟台鐵公衛這邊他們有在溝通他裝這個影音或者是攝影機的這個建議事實上是\n\n5\n00:01:28,855 --> 00:01:43,981\n事實上是可以可以兼顧個人隱私可以兼顧公共藝術安全兩者都可以兼顧的啦可以達到雙贏的主要你可以有沒有機會在這邊說明一下要怎麼樣做到兼顧的這部分因為當然就我們的了解啦其實國外其他\n\n6\n00:01:44,981 --> 00:02:08,966\n像比如說法國或比如說日本等等的這些鐵道也發展成發達的國家他們的架子也是有安裝那到底當初他們怎麼溝通或是說他們的做法怎麼樣那在這一次的因為在這個檢討報告裡面你沒有特別提到說怎麼樣面對這個有時候這些工會的成員他們要求所謂隱私的問題那主委你有沒有機會在這邊講一下到底要怎麼樣兼顧安全跟兼顧隱私的部分各位請主委說明\n\n7\n00:02:09,774 --> 00:02:30,710\n事實上裝這個紀錄器就是影音或者是聲音或者是影像的紀錄器這個他的目的是要為了事故調查嗎那平常平常沒有人會去看因為他只有錄音就是兩小時嘛那兩小時過後之後他就會覆蓋上去那國外或者是我們國內像\n\n8\n00:02:32,111 --> 00:02:53,780\n像我所了解的像桃園集結他就有裝嘛所以說他裝那個攝像機的那個鏡頭角度什麼他只是局部要有一個角度的限制何況裝了之後要去解讀要把它download下來的人還有一定規範的限制並不是任何人可以去看的所以\n\n9\n00:02:55,699 --> 00:03:15,971\n對個人隱私個人各自方面他是應該是應該是不會有這個疑慮但是我們想說鐵炮局他也知道這個要因為這是長久以來這不幾十年來的要突然這樣改變市紀委員公會他們可能有一些觀念要需要鐵炮局跟他們溝通主委謝謝說明因為這個我想\n\n10\n00:03:17,952 --> 00:03:35,978\n這段時間來我想不管是剛剛這麼多委員提到是剛剛十幾位委員大家都提到說最近這個雙鐵的不管是台鐵高鐵都好都是的確都有些駕駛個人的問題導致失誤的發生那當然民眾一個這個高鐵或一個台鐵上面的民眾幾百人在上面\n\n11\n00:03:36,678 --> 00:03:51,570\n所以如果能夠確實的掌握到如果真的出萬一出狀況能夠事後來究責知道真實的原因在哪裡我想對民眾的安全也是非常重要那當然我知道說你們在第一線溝通的時候的確我遇到工會有些反彈但是我們希望你能夠把\n\n12\n00:03:52,768 --> 00:04:20,491\n其他國家或其他的這個案例明確的能夠執行的方案能夠提出來來降低這個反彈的聲音要不然如果是僵在這邊你看從107年發生調查完到現在已經又過了這個6年的時間了6年7年時間那中間也發生了其他的事故那這意外發生一次之後都是很多的人命的所以我希望說這個運動會能夠去加強跟鐵道局也好或跟工會工會是你們溝通嗎還是鐵道局溝通你們只負責調查而已鐵道局溝通嗎\n\n13\n00:04:20,911 --> 00:04:39,998\n我們是建議鐵道局可以譬如說他們可以去就剛剛委員講的去國外去美國去加拿大他們都有這個綠定去觀摩可以找公會的人一起去看不是他想像中這樣子完全是保護個人的國外這部分其他國家的執行案例是由你們提供還是鐵道局自己去考察\n\n14\n00:04:40,762 --> 00:05:02,796\n好對不起我說其他國家的案例其他國家怎麼執行這件事情的案例是由你們越南會來提供相關的幕僚做幕僚資料給鐵道局給交通部還是要由交通部他們自己去調查國外的做法我們有提供資料給他們他們就會去去做審備他們去看好謝謝主委那後續的交通部來我再問他那接下來這個\n\n15\n00:05:05,253 --> 00:05:21,890\n今年2月有修訂的運輸事故調查法來擴大了重大運輸的這個事故範圍那包含了大家很關心的是電動車啦自動駕駛等等的案例列入但是我要跟主委請教的是說從過去幾年立案調查數量來講的話因為你們應該會有分組嘛航空水路鐵道公路\n\n16\n00:05:22,851 --> 00:05:45,891\n那過去這幾年從2018年的數據到現在來講相對來講公路的立案調查數量是最少的當然有可能是因為公路的過去的定義比較嚴格或是公路的這個真的屬於重大事故的案例沒這麼多這當然有可能是數據上呈現的結果是這樣子那問題是說你今年2月把這個所謂的電動車也好自動駕駛的這個先進輔助駕駛系統列入事故調查範圍之後\n\n17\n00:05:47,953 --> 00:06:05,173\n這就等於是公路組的業務嘛那你在這個事情上既然把它入法了那我想問一下你的人事分配上面你的公路組有提升嗎還是用G有的人力會不會遇到人力不足的問題主委你講到重點啦就是因為現在新興硬具\n\n18\n00:06:05,854 --> 00:06:22,229\n或者是一些校車電動車出來我們要調查所以公路組現在我們就把其他組都調人力過去再訓練確實是這樣子沒有錯主委我想跟你確認一下你是說因為你本來是分四組嘛那當然各自有各自的專業你比如說我懂航空的人\n\n19\n00:06:23,471 --> 00:06:44,724\n過去調查的是這個空難的問題或是非常安全的問題來調查那你現在如果公路的量能要提升你們不是重新招考還是直接內部直接調動而已我們說往旗下重新我們有缺從外面招進來然後另外我們把鐵套組一個調查官的缺調過去所以你們是緣而有變動嘛那人呢我是講就是\n\n20\n00:06:45,785 --> 00:07:07,395\n原格當然會變動嘛原格變動沒問題那我講的是專業人才的部分我們擔心的是專業人今天因為你今天既然二月提了二月到現在也才兩月而已啦其實也是蠻近的我只要講說公路組在這部分的專業的部分人是有沒有提升還有另外一件事情是剛好昨天這個教育委員會在修水AIG本法那未來包含自駕車也好或是包含這個駕駛輔助系統\n\n21\n00:07:08,976 --> 00:07:32,095\n可能也都是列在所謂AI基本法的這個狀況裡面所以我要問的是運安會有沒有隨著科技的進步去應聘聘用更多類似的相關專業人才因為這個公路的定義它不是在過去這樣子因為過去可能就是真的是大型的可能遊覽車事故啦或是大型的這種交通事故才是歸你們調查那未來會不會有這個問題\n\n22\n00:07:32,936 --> 00:07:48,594\n不會其實剛剛委員講的其實不是只有公路我們其他調查組我們從外面新併新來的考題裡面我們都會跟他講說你對AI的這個都會注入這個議題裡面所以我們也跟著時代科技在進步在與時並進\n\n23\n00:07:50,916 --> 00:08:13,545\n那剛剛講到我們公路組就是因為有些信息抑鬱的事故的發生的案子的增加嘛所以我們人一直在增加所以現在我們四個調查模組裡面就是公路組人最多啊公路組人最多嗎對因為他案子會越來越多對啊我就想擔心這個事情那最後因為時間不夠我最後再跟主委提醒一下我們看到一些數據喔\n\n24\n00:08:15,038 --> 00:08:37,574\n這之前的絕賺報告裡面有人提醒到說這個運營會的剩餘的經費裡面來講最主要都來自於人事費的結餘那我要給主委一個提醒是說像民航局他們在出勤在各項的報案說測試等等的民航局是有一個標準每小時支付多少的金額給這些所謂的這個工作人員\n\n25\n00:08:39,235 --> 00:09:08,191\n我剛提到運安會這部分因為現在既然有所謂新的科技進來那你公務組也要提升相關的人才那你們每年的這個人事費的剩餘也這麼多相對比較多啦這是決算報告裡面提出的這個提醒那我們期待說如果後續在這公務上面你們是不是也能夠訂一個很明確的終點費的支給表讓真正專業人才能夠替運安會在調查過程裡面來服務主委有沒有可能做到這件事情這個我們的研究看看\n\n26\n00:09:09,113 --> 00:09:16,375\n你研究完什麼時候研究要研究多久我也就看看因為究竟不太一樣因為他們就有一點類似灰心蝦子的味道\n\n27\n00:09:17,714 --> 00:09:45,656\n對啊但是今天你們這個你們今天這麼多這個因為你們其實我講真的我剛剛有一個時間沒有講到就是你們人事的這個流動率相對還是比較高啦我們當然希望你們留才啦你竟然剩這麼多錢我說你每年都剩這麼多這個經費我們當然期待說彈性運用嘛你要幫人才願意幫你做事情那我覺得相關的這個支付的這個標準應該要定出來不要說都是臨時薪水那大家當然算了下來大家就往航空公司跑或往其他外面的公司跑了嘛\n\n28\n00:09:45,816 --> 00:10:05,604\n那我們期待說預案會是我們我國唯一的專業的獨立機構在調查這種安全事故那你的人才如果能夠留下來透過我剛提到的像參考民調局的方式我覺得對這些專業人才來講能夠有個佳績你留才才有這個方向不然你這麼多人是不是要做什麼主委\n\n29\n00:10:06,448 --> 00:10:19,694\n我們也希望這樣做但是有相關的規範我們還是要研擬研擬看看啦你提出來我們才能夠研擬你要提出來案子我們才能討論嘛好不好主委你回去研究一下啦可不可以好我們去看看好主委謝謝好謝謝謝謝黃建豪委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1240\t5430\t好謝謝主席主席我們請病安會主委林主委好林主委\n11168\t34074\t主委好 主委這個今天針對運安會部分本席有一個疑問我想剛剛前面有一個委員提到說就是列管的改善事故台鐵被列管的改善事件裡面有一項包含就是說列車駕駛是能不能依照運安會的調查報告要求來安裝聲音影像的紀錄器這部分剛好今天我也看到一個報導我想確認一下這今天報導我知道運安會知不知道\n35614\t63055\t雙鐵的狀況多那交通部長也希望說價值上能夠裝監視器那我想請教一下因為這個案子我想從當年從這個普悠瑪事故之後107年到現在今天這麼多年了那我想你們在去年也提出了相關的修法的一個方向那我想問一下到底目前的狀況卡在哪裡那為什麼後來又被退回來是不是公會的反彈還是有哪裡公眾出現問題所以導致這個檢討報告到目前為止雖然提出了檢討但是實際上\n64716\t87794\t好像要在這個駕駛室來安裝相關的監視影像系統好像有困難是不是主委我們的建議是給鐵道局那鐵道局他當然他有他的考量他跟公衛這邊跟台鐵公衛這邊他們有在溝通他裝這個影音或者是攝影機的這個建議事實上是\n88855\t103981\t事實上是可以可以兼顧個人隱私可以兼顧公共藝術安全兩者都可以兼顧的啦可以達到雙贏的主要你可以有沒有機會在這邊說明一下要怎麼樣做到兼顧的這部分因為當然就我們的了解啦其實國外其他\n104981\t128966\t像比如說法國或比如說日本等等的這些鐵道也發展成發達的國家他們的架子也是有安裝那到底當初他們怎麼溝通或是說他們的做法怎麼樣那在這一次的因為在這個檢討報告裡面你沒有特別提到說怎麼樣面對這個有時候這些工會的成員他們要求所謂隱私的問題那主委你有沒有機會在這邊講一下到底要怎麼樣兼顧安全跟兼顧隱私的部分各位請主委說明\n129774\t150710\t事實上裝這個紀錄器就是影音或者是聲音或者是影像的紀錄器這個他的目的是要為了事故調查嗎那平常平常沒有人會去看因為他只有錄音就是兩小時嘛那兩小時過後之後他就會覆蓋上去那國外或者是我們國內像\n152111\t173780\t像我所了解的像桃園集結他就有裝嘛所以說他裝那個攝像機的那個鏡頭角度什麼他只是局部要有一個角度的限制何況裝了之後要去解讀要把它download下來的人還有一定規範的限制並不是任何人可以去看的所以\n175699\t195971\t對個人隱私個人各自方面他是應該是應該是不會有這個疑慮但是我們想說鐵炮局他也知道這個要因為這是長久以來這不幾十年來的要突然這樣改變市紀委員公會他們可能有一些觀念要需要鐵炮局跟他們溝通主委謝謝說明因為這個我想\n197952\t215978\t這段時間來我想不管是剛剛這麼多委員提到是剛剛十幾位委員大家都提到說最近這個雙鐵的不管是台鐵高鐵都好都是的確都有些駕駛個人的問題導致失誤的發生那當然民眾一個這個高鐵或一個台鐵上面的民眾幾百人在上面\n216678\t231570\t所以如果能夠確實的掌握到如果真的出萬一出狀況能夠事後來究責知道真實的原因在哪裡我想對民眾的安全也是非常重要那當然我知道說你們在第一線溝通的時候的確我遇到工會有些反彈但是我們希望你能夠把\n232768\t260491\t其他國家或其他的這個案例明確的能夠執行的方案能夠提出來來降低這個反彈的聲音要不然如果是僵在這邊你看從107年發生調查完到現在已經又過了這個6年的時間了6年7年時間那中間也發生了其他的事故那這意外發生一次之後都是很多的人命的所以我希望說這個運動會能夠去加強跟鐵道局也好或跟工會工會是你們溝通嗎還是鐵道局溝通你們只負責調查而已鐵道局溝通嗎\n260911\t279998\t我們是建議鐵道局可以譬如說他們可以去就剛剛委員講的去國外去美國去加拿大他們都有這個綠定去觀摩可以找公會的人一起去看不是他想像中這樣子完全是保護個人的國外這部分其他國家的執行案例是由你們提供還是鐵道局自己去考察\n280762\t302796\t好對不起我說其他國家的案例其他國家怎麼執行這件事情的案例是由你們越南會來提供相關的幕僚做幕僚資料給鐵道局給交通部還是要由交通部他們自己去調查國外的做法我們有提供資料給他們他們就會去去做審備他們去看好謝謝主委那後續的交通部來我再問他那接下來這個\n305253\t321890\t今年2月有修訂的運輸事故調查法來擴大了重大運輸的這個事故範圍那包含了大家很關心的是電動車啦自動駕駛等等的案例列入但是我要跟主委請教的是說從過去幾年立案調查數量來講的話因為你們應該會有分組嘛航空水路鐵道公路\n322851\t345891\t那過去這幾年從2018年的數據到現在來講相對來講公路的立案調查數量是最少的當然有可能是因為公路的過去的定義比較嚴格或是公路的這個真的屬於重大事故的案例沒這麼多這當然有可能是數據上呈現的結果是這樣子那問題是說你今年2月把這個所謂的電動車也好自動駕駛的這個先進輔助駕駛系統列入事故調查範圍之後\n347953\t365173\t這就等於是公路組的業務嘛那你在這個事情上既然把它入法了那我想問一下你的人事分配上面你的公路組有提升嗎還是用G有的人力會不會遇到人力不足的問題主委你講到重點啦就是因為現在新興硬具\n365854\t382229\t或者是一些校車電動車出來我們要調查所以公路組現在我們就把其他組都調人力過去再訓練確實是這樣子沒有錯主委我想跟你確認一下你是說因為你本來是分四組嘛那當然各自有各自的專業你比如說我懂航空的人\n383471\t404724\t過去調查的是這個空難的問題或是非常安全的問題來調查那你現在如果公路的量能要提升你們不是重新招考還是直接內部直接調動而已我們說往旗下重新我們有缺從外面招進來然後另外我們把鐵套組一個調查官的缺調過去所以你們是緣而有變動嘛那人呢我是講就是\n405785\t427395\t原格當然會變動嘛原格變動沒問題那我講的是專業人才的部分我們擔心的是專業人今天因為你今天既然二月提了二月到現在也才兩月而已啦其實也是蠻近的我只要講說公路組在這部分的專業的部分人是有沒有提升還有另外一件事情是剛好昨天這個教育委員會在修水AIG本法那未來包含自駕車也好或是包含這個駕駛輔助系統\n428976\t452095\t可能也都是列在所謂AI基本法的這個狀況裡面所以我要問的是運安會有沒有隨著科技的進步去應聘 聘用更多類似的相關專業人才因為這個公路的定義它不是在過去這樣子因為過去可能就是真的是大型的可能遊覽車事故啦或是大型的這種交通事故才是歸你們調查那未來會不會有這個問題\n452936\t468594\t不會 其實剛剛委員講的其實不是只有公路我們其他調查組我們從外面新併新來的考題裡面我們都會跟他講說你對AI的這個都會注入這個議題裡面所以我們也跟著時代科技在進步在與時並進\n470916\t493545\t那剛剛講到我們公路組就是因為有些信息抑鬱的事故的發生的案子的增加嘛所以我們人一直在增加所以現在我們四個調查模組裡面就是公路組人最多啊公路組人最多嗎對因為他案子會越來越多對啊我就想擔心這個事情那最後因為時間不夠我最後再跟主委提醒一下我們看到一些數據喔\n495038\t517574\t這之前的絕賺報告裡面有人提醒到說這個運營會的剩餘的經費裡面來講最主要都來自於人事費的結餘那我要給主委一個提醒是說像民航局他們在出勤在各項的報案說測試等等的民航局是有一個標準每小時支付多少的金額給這些所謂的這個工作人員\n519235\t548191\t我剛提到運安會這部分因為現在既然有所謂新的科技進來那你公務組也要提升相關的人才那你們每年的這個人事費的剩餘也這麼多相對比較多啦這是決算報告裡面提出的這個提醒那我們期待說如果後續在這公務上面你們是不是也能夠訂一個很明確的終點費的支給表讓真正專業人才能夠替運安會在調查過程裡面來服務主委有沒有可能做到這件事情這個我們的研究看看\n549113\t556375\t你研究完什麼時候研究要研究多久我也就看看因為究竟不太一樣因為他們就有一點類似灰心蝦子的味道\n557714\t585656\t對啊 但是今天你們這個你們今天這麼多這個因為你們其實我講真的我剛剛有一個時間沒有講到就是你們人事的這個流動率相對還是比較高啦我們當然希望你們留才啦你竟然剩這麼多錢我說你每年都剩這麼多這個經費我們當然期待說彈性運用嘛你要幫人才願意幫你做事情那我覺得相關的這個支付的這個標準應該要定出來不要說都是臨時薪水那大家當然算了下來大家就往航空公司跑或往其他外面的公司跑了嘛\n585816\t605604\t那我們期待說預案會是我們我國唯一的專業的獨立機構在調查這種安全事故那你的人才如果能夠留下來透過我剛提到的像參考民調局的方式我覺得對這些專業人才來講能夠有個佳績你留才才有這個方向不然你這麼多人是不是要做什麼 主委\n606448\t619694\t我們也希望這樣做但是有相關的規範我們還是要研擬研擬看看啦你提出來我們才能夠研擬你要提出來案子我們才能討論嘛好不好主委你回去研究一下啦可不可以好我們去看看好主委謝謝好謝謝謝謝黃建豪委員\n","txt":"好謝謝主席主席我們請病安會主委林主委好林主委\n主委好 主委這個今天針對運安會部分本席有一個疑問我想剛剛前面有一個委員提到說就是列管的改善事故台鐵被列管的改善事件裡面有一項包含就是說列車駕駛是能不能依照運安會的調查報告要求來安裝聲音影像的紀錄器這部分剛好今天我也看到一個報導我想確認一下這今天報導我知道運安會知不知道\n雙鐵的狀況多那交通部長也希望說價值上能夠裝監視器那我想請教一下因為這個案子我想從當年從這個普悠瑪事故之後107年到現在今天這麼多年了那我想你們在去年也提出了相關的修法的一個方向那我想問一下到底目前的狀況卡在哪裡那為什麼後來又被退回來是不是公會的反彈還是有哪裡公眾出現問題所以導致這個檢討報告到目前為止雖然提出了檢討但是實際上\n好像要在這個駕駛室來安裝相關的監視影像系統好像有困難是不是主委我們的建議是給鐵道局那鐵道局他當然他有他的考量他跟公衛這邊跟台鐵公衛這邊他們有在溝通他裝這個影音或者是攝影機的這個建議事實上是\n事實上是可以可以兼顧個人隱私可以兼顧公共藝術安全兩者都可以兼顧的啦可以達到雙贏的主要你可以有沒有機會在這邊說明一下要怎麼樣做到兼顧的這部分因為當然就我們的了解啦其實國外其他\n像比如說法國或比如說日本等等的這些鐵道也發展成發達的國家他們的架子也是有安裝那到底當初他們怎麼溝通或是說他們的做法怎麼樣那在這一次的因為在這個檢討報告裡面你沒有特別提到說怎麼樣面對這個有時候這些工會的成員他們要求所謂隱私的問題那主委你有沒有機會在這邊講一下到底要怎麼樣兼顧安全跟兼顧隱私的部分各位請主委說明\n事實上裝這個紀錄器就是影音或者是聲音或者是影像的紀錄器這個他的目的是要為了事故調查嗎那平常平常沒有人會去看因為他只有錄音就是兩小時嘛那兩小時過後之後他就會覆蓋上去那國外或者是我們國內像\n像我所了解的像桃園集結他就有裝嘛所以說他裝那個攝像機的那個鏡頭角度什麼他只是局部要有一個角度的限制何況裝了之後要去解讀要把它download下來的人還有一定規範的限制並不是任何人可以去看的所以\n對個人隱私個人各自方面他是應該是應該是不會有這個疑慮但是我們想說鐵炮局他也知道這個要因為這是長久以來這不幾十年來的要突然這樣改變市紀委員公會他們可能有一些觀念要需要鐵炮局跟他們溝通主委謝謝說明因為這個我想\n這段時間來我想不管是剛剛這麼多委員提到是剛剛十幾位委員大家都提到說最近這個雙鐵的不管是台鐵高鐵都好都是的確都有些駕駛個人的問題導致失誤的發生那當然民眾一個這個高鐵或一個台鐵上面的民眾幾百人在上面\n所以如果能夠確實的掌握到如果真的出萬一出狀況能夠事後來究責知道真實的原因在哪裡我想對民眾的安全也是非常重要那當然我知道說你們在第一線溝通的時候的確我遇到工會有些反彈但是我們希望你能夠把\n其他國家或其他的這個案例明確的能夠執行的方案能夠提出來來降低這個反彈的聲音要不然如果是僵在這邊你看從107年發生調查完到現在已經又過了這個6年的時間了6年7年時間那中間也發生了其他的事故那這意外發生一次之後都是很多的人命的所以我希望說這個運動會能夠去加強跟鐵道局也好或跟工會工會是你們溝通嗎還是鐵道局溝通你們只負責調查而已鐵道局溝通嗎\n我們是建議鐵道局可以譬如說他們可以去就剛剛委員講的去國外去美國去加拿大他們都有這個綠定去觀摩可以找公會的人一起去看不是他想像中這樣子完全是保護個人的國外這部分其他國家的執行案例是由你們提供還是鐵道局自己去考察\n好對不起我說其他國家的案例其他國家怎麼執行這件事情的案例是由你們越南會來提供相關的幕僚做幕僚資料給鐵道局給交通部還是要由交通部他們自己去調查國外的做法我們有提供資料給他們他們就會去去做審備他們去看好謝謝主委那後續的交通部來我再問他那接下來這個\n今年2月有修訂的運輸事故調查法來擴大了重大運輸的這個事故範圍那包含了大家很關心的是電動車啦自動駕駛等等的案例列入但是我要跟主委請教的是說從過去幾年立案調查數量來講的話因為你們應該會有分組嘛航空水路鐵道公路\n那過去這幾年從2018年的數據到現在來講相對來講公路的立案調查數量是最少的當然有可能是因為公路的過去的定義比較嚴格或是公路的這個真的屬於重大事故的案例沒這麼多這當然有可能是數據上呈現的結果是這樣子那問題是說你今年2月把這個所謂的電動車也好自動駕駛的這個先進輔助駕駛系統列入事故調查範圍之後\n這就等於是公路組的業務嘛那你在這個事情上既然把它入法了那我想問一下你的人事分配上面你的公路組有提升嗎還是用G有的人力會不會遇到人力不足的問題主委你講到重點啦就是因為現在新興硬具\n或者是一些校車電動車出來我們要調查所以公路組現在我們就把其他組都調人力過去再訓練確實是這樣子沒有錯主委我想跟你確認一下你是說因為你本來是分四組嘛那當然各自有各自的專業你比如說我懂航空的人\n過去調查的是這個空難的問題或是非常安全的問題來調查那你現在如果公路的量能要提升你們不是重新招考還是直接內部直接調動而已我們說往旗下重新我們有缺從外面招進來然後另外我們把鐵套組一個調查官的缺調過去所以你們是緣而有變動嘛那人呢我是講就是\n原格當然會變動嘛原格變動沒問題那我講的是專業人才的部分我們擔心的是專業人今天因為你今天既然二月提了二月到現在也才兩月而已啦其實也是蠻近的我只要講說公路組在這部分的專業的部分人是有沒有提升還有另外一件事情是剛好昨天這個教育委員會在修水AIG本法那未來包含自駕車也好或是包含這個駕駛輔助系統\n可能也都是列在所謂AI基本法的這個狀況裡面所以我要問的是運安會有沒有隨著科技的進步去應聘 聘用更多類似的相關專業人才因為這個公路的定義它不是在過去這樣子因為過去可能就是真的是大型的可能遊覽車事故啦或是大型的這種交通事故才是歸你們調查那未來會不會有這個問題\n不會 其實剛剛委員講的其實不是只有公路我們其他調查組我們從外面新併新來的考題裡面我們都會跟他講說你對AI的這個都會注入這個議題裡面所以我們也跟著時代科技在進步在與時並進\n那剛剛講到我們公路組就是因為有些信息抑鬱的事故的發生的案子的增加嘛所以我們人一直在增加所以現在我們四個調查模組裡面就是公路組人最多啊公路組人最多嗎對因為他案子會越來越多對啊我就想擔心這個事情那最後因為時間不夠我最後再跟主委提醒一下我們看到一些數據喔\n這之前的絕賺報告裡面有人提醒到說這個運營會的剩餘的經費裡面來講最主要都來自於人事費的結餘那我要給主委一個提醒是說像民航局他們在出勤在各項的報案說測試等等的民航局是有一個標準每小時支付多少的金額給這些所謂的這個工作人員\n我剛提到運安會這部分因為現在既然有所謂新的科技進來那你公務組也要提升相關的人才那你們每年的這個人事費的剩餘也這麼多相對比較多啦這是決算報告裡面提出的這個提醒那我們期待說如果後續在這公務上面你們是不是也能夠訂一個很明確的終點費的支給表讓真正專業人才能夠替運安會在調查過程裡面來服務主委有沒有可能做到這件事情這個我們的研究看看\n你研究完什麼時候研究要研究多久我也就看看因為究竟不太一樣因為他們就有一點類似灰心蝦子的味道\n對啊 但是今天你們這個你們今天這麼多這個因為你們其實我講真的我剛剛有一個時間沒有講到就是你們人事的這個流動率相對還是比較高啦我們當然希望你們留才啦你竟然剩這麼多錢我說你每年都剩這麼多這個經費我們當然期待說彈性運用嘛你要幫人才願意幫你做事情那我覺得相關的這個支付的這個標準應該要定出來不要說都是臨時薪水那大家當然算了下來大家就往航空公司跑或往其他外面的公司跑了嘛\n那我們期待說預案會是我們我國唯一的專業的獨立機構在調查這種安全事故那你的人才如果能夠留下來透過我剛提到的像參考民調局的方式我覺得對這些專業人才來講能夠有個佳績你留才才有這個方向不然你這麼多人是不是要做什麼 主委\n我們也希望這樣做但是有相關的規範我們還是要研擬研擬看看啦你提出來我們才能夠研擬你要提出來案子我們才能討論嘛好不好主委你回去研究一下啦可不可以好我們去看看好主委謝謝好謝謝謝謝黃建豪委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.240 --> 00:05.430\n好謝謝主席主席我們請病安會主委林主委好林主委\n\n00:11.168 --> 00:34.074\n主委好主委這個今天針對運安會部分本席有一個疑問我想剛剛前面有一個委員提到說就是列管的改善事故台鐵被列管的改善事件裡面有一項包含就是說列車駕駛是能不能依照運安會的調查報告要求來安裝聲音影像的紀錄器這部分剛好今天我也看到一個報導我想確認一下這今天報導我知道運安會知不知道\n\n00:35.614 --> 01:03.055\n雙鐵的狀況多那交通部長也希望說價值上能夠裝監視器那我想請教一下因為這個案子我想從當年從這個普悠瑪事故之後107年到現在今天這麼多年了那我想你們在去年也提出了相關的修法的一個方向那我想問一下到底目前的狀況卡在哪裡那為什麼後來又被退回來是不是公會的反彈還是有哪裡公眾出現問題所以導致這個檢討報告到目前為止雖然提出了檢討但是實際上\n\n01:04.716 --> 01:27.794\n好像要在這個駕駛室來安裝相關的監視影像系統好像有困難是不是主委我們的建議是給鐵道局那鐵道局他當然他有他的考量他跟公衛這邊跟台鐵公衛這邊他們有在溝通他裝這個影音或者是攝影機的這個建議事實上是\n\n01:28.855 --> 01:43.981\n事實上是可以可以兼顧個人隱私可以兼顧公共藝術安全兩者都可以兼顧的啦可以達到雙贏的主要你可以有沒有機會在這邊說明一下要怎麼樣做到兼顧的這部分因為當然就我們的了解啦其實國外其他\n\n01:44.981 --> 02:08.966\n像比如說法國或比如說日本等等的這些鐵道也發展成發達的國家他們的架子也是有安裝那到底當初他們怎麼溝通或是說他們的做法怎麼樣那在這一次的因為在這個檢討報告裡面你沒有特別提到說怎麼樣面對這個有時候這些工會的成員他們要求所謂隱私的問題那主委你有沒有機會在這邊講一下到底要怎麼樣兼顧安全跟兼顧隱私的部分各位請主委說明\n\n02:09.774 --> 02:30.710\n事實上裝這個紀錄器就是影音或者是聲音或者是影像的紀錄器這個他的目的是要為了事故調查嗎那平常平常沒有人會去看因為他只有錄音就是兩小時嘛那兩小時過後之後他就會覆蓋上去那國外或者是我們國內像\n\n02:32.111 --> 02:53.780\n像我所了解的像桃園集結他就有裝嘛所以說他裝那個攝像機的那個鏡頭角度什麼他只是局部要有一個角度的限制何況裝了之後要去解讀要把它download下來的人還有一定規範的限制並不是任何人可以去看的所以\n\n02:55.699 --> 03:15.971\n對個人隱私個人各自方面他是應該是應該是不會有這個疑慮但是我們想說鐵炮局他也知道這個要因為這是長久以來這不幾十年來的要突然這樣改變市紀委員公會他們可能有一些觀念要需要鐵炮局跟他們溝通主委謝謝說明因為這個我想\n\n03:17.952 --> 03:35.978\n這段時間來我想不管是剛剛這麼多委員提到是剛剛十幾位委員大家都提到說最近這個雙鐵的不管是台鐵高鐵都好都是的確都有些駕駛個人的問題導致失誤的發生那當然民眾一個這個高鐵或一個台鐵上面的民眾幾百人在上面\n\n03:36.678 --> 03:51.570\n所以如果能夠確實的掌握到如果真的出萬一出狀況能夠事後來究責知道真實的原因在哪裡我想對民眾的安全也是非常重要那當然我知道說你們在第一線溝通的時候的確我遇到工會有些反彈但是我們希望你能夠把\n\n03:52.768 --> 04:20.491\n其他國家或其他的這個案例明確的能夠執行的方案能夠提出來來降低這個反彈的聲音要不然如果是僵在這邊你看從107年發生調查完到現在已經又過了這個6年的時間了6年7年時間那中間也發生了其他的事故那這意外發生一次之後都是很多的人命的所以我希望說這個運動會能夠去加強跟鐵道局也好或跟工會工會是你們溝通嗎還是鐵道局溝通你們只負責調查而已鐵道局溝通嗎\n\n04:20.911 --> 04:39.998\n我們是建議鐵道局可以譬如說他們可以去就剛剛委員講的去國外去美國去加拿大他們都有這個綠定去觀摩可以找公會的人一起去看不是他想像中這樣子完全是保護個人的國外這部分其他國家的執行案例是由你們提供還是鐵道局自己去考察\n\n04:40.762 --> 05:02.796\n好對不起我說其他國家的案例其他國家怎麼執行這件事情的案例是由你們越南會來提供相關的幕僚做幕僚資料給鐵道局給交通部還是要由交通部他們自己去調查國外的做法我們有提供資料給他們他們就會去去做審備他們去看好謝謝主委那後續的交通部來我再問他那接下來這個\n\n05:05.253 --> 05:21.890\n今年2月有修訂的運輸事故調查法來擴大了重大運輸的這個事故範圍那包含了大家很關心的是電動車啦自動駕駛等等的案例列入但是我要跟主委請教的是說從過去幾年立案調查數量來講的話因為你們應該會有分組嘛航空水路鐵道公路\n\n05:22.851 --> 05:45.891\n那過去這幾年從2018年的數據到現在來講相對來講公路的立案調查數量是最少的當然有可能是因為公路的過去的定義比較嚴格或是公路的這個真的屬於重大事故的案例沒這麼多這當然有可能是數據上呈現的結果是這樣子那問題是說你今年2月把這個所謂的電動車也好自動駕駛的這個先進輔助駕駛系統列入事故調查範圍之後\n\n05:47.953 --> 06:05.173\n這就等於是公路組的業務嘛那你在這個事情上既然把它入法了那我想問一下你的人事分配上面你的公路組有提升嗎還是用G有的人力會不會遇到人力不足的問題主委你講到重點啦就是因為現在新興硬具\n\n06:05.854 --> 06:22.229\n或者是一些校車電動車出來我們要調查所以公路組現在我們就把其他組都調人力過去再訓練確實是這樣子沒有錯主委我想跟你確認一下你是說因為你本來是分四組嘛那當然各自有各自的專業你比如說我懂航空的人\n\n06:23.471 --> 06:44.724\n過去調查的是這個空難的問題或是非常安全的問題來調查那你現在如果公路的量能要提升你們不是重新招考還是直接內部直接調動而已我們說往旗下重新我們有缺從外面招進來然後另外我們把鐵套組一個調查官的缺調過去所以你們是緣而有變動嘛那人呢我是講就是\n\n06:45.785 --> 07:07.395\n原格當然會變動嘛原格變動沒問題那我講的是專業人才的部分我們擔心的是專業人今天因為你今天既然二月提了二月到現在也才兩月而已啦其實也是蠻近的我只要講說公路組在這部分的專業的部分人是有沒有提升還有另外一件事情是剛好昨天這個教育委員會在修水AIG本法那未來包含自駕車也好或是包含這個駕駛輔助系統\n\n07:08.976 --> 07:32.095\n可能也都是列在所謂AI基本法的這個狀況裡面所以我要問的是運安會有沒有隨著科技的進步去應聘聘用更多類似的相關專業人才因為這個公路的定義它不是在過去這樣子因為過去可能就是真的是大型的可能遊覽車事故啦或是大型的這種交通事故才是歸你們調查那未來會不會有這個問題\n\n07:32.936 --> 07:48.594\n不會其實剛剛委員講的其實不是只有公路我們其他調查組我們從外面新併新來的考題裡面我們都會跟他講說你對AI的這個都會注入這個議題裡面所以我們也跟著時代科技在進步在與時並進\n\n07:50.916 --> 08:13.545\n那剛剛講到我們公路組就是因為有些信息抑鬱的事故的發生的案子的增加嘛所以我們人一直在增加所以現在我們四個調查模組裡面就是公路組人最多啊公路組人最多嗎對因為他案子會越來越多對啊我就想擔心這個事情那最後因為時間不夠我最後再跟主委提醒一下我們看到一些數據喔\n\n08:15.038 --> 08:37.574\n這之前的絕賺報告裡面有人提醒到說這個運營會的剩餘的經費裡面來講最主要都來自於人事費的結餘那我要給主委一個提醒是說像民航局他們在出勤在各項的報案說測試等等的民航局是有一個標準每小時支付多少的金額給這些所謂的這個工作人員\n\n08:39.235 --> 09:08.191\n我剛提到運安會這部分因為現在既然有所謂新的科技進來那你公務組也要提升相關的人才那你們每年的這個人事費的剩餘也這麼多相對比較多啦這是決算報告裡面提出的這個提醒那我們期待說如果後續在這公務上面你們是不是也能夠訂一個很明確的終點費的支給表讓真正專業人才能夠替運安會在調查過程裡面來服務主委有沒有可能做到這件事情這個我們的研究看看\n\n09:09.113 --> 09:16.375\n你研究完什麼時候研究要研究多久我也就看看因為究竟不太一樣因為他們就有一點類似灰心蝦子的味道\n\n09:17.714 --> 09:45.656\n對啊但是今天你們這個你們今天這麼多這個因為你們其實我講真的我剛剛有一個時間沒有講到就是你們人事的這個流動率相對還是比較高啦我們當然希望你們留才啦你竟然剩這麼多錢我說你每年都剩這麼多這個經費我們當然期待說彈性運用嘛你要幫人才願意幫你做事情那我覺得相關的這個支付的這個標準應該要定出來不要說都是臨時薪水那大家當然算了下來大家就往航空公司跑或往其他外面的公司跑了嘛\n\n09:45.816 --> 10:05.604\n那我們期待說預案會是我們我國唯一的專業的獨立機構在調查這種安全事故那你的人才如果能夠留下來透過我剛提到的像參考民調局的方式我覺得對這些專業人才來講能夠有個佳績你留才才有這個方向不然你這麼多人是不是要做什麼主委\n\n10:06.448 --> 10:19.694\n我們也希望這樣做但是有相關的規範我們還是要研擬研擬看看啦你提出來我們才能夠研擬你要提出來案子我們才能討論嘛好不好主委你回去研究一下啦可不可以好我們去看看好主委謝謝好謝謝謝謝黃建豪委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.24,"end":5.43,"text":"好謝謝主席主席我們請病安會主委林主委好林主委"},{"start":11.168,"end":34.074,"text":"主委好 主委這個今天針對運安會部分本席有一個疑問我想剛剛前面有一個委員提到說就是列管的改善事故台鐵被列管的改善事件裡面有一項包含就是說列車駕駛是能不能依照運安會的調查報告要求來安裝聲音影像的紀錄器這部分剛好今天我也看到一個報導我想確認一下這今天報導我知道運安會知不知道"},{"start":35.614,"end":63.055,"text":"雙鐵的狀況多那交通部長也希望說價值上能夠裝監視器那我想請教一下因為這個案子我想從當年從這個普悠瑪事故之後107年到現在今天這麼多年了那我想你們在去年也提出了相關的修法的一個方向那我想問一下到底目前的狀況卡在哪裡那為什麼後來又被退回來是不是公會的反彈還是有哪裡公眾出現問題所以導致這個檢討報告到目前為止雖然提出了檢討但是實際上"},{"start":64.716,"end":87.794,"text":"好像要在這個駕駛室來安裝相關的監視影像系統好像有困難是不是主委我們的建議是給鐵道局那鐵道局他當然他有他的考量他跟公衛這邊跟台鐵公衛這邊他們有在溝通他裝這個影音或者是攝影機的這個建議事實上是"},{"start":88.855,"end":103.981,"text":"事實上是可以可以兼顧個人隱私可以兼顧公共藝術安全兩者都可以兼顧的啦可以達到雙贏的主要你可以有沒有機會在這邊說明一下要怎麼樣做到兼顧的這部分因為當然就我們的了解啦其實國外其他"},{"start":104.981,"end":128.966,"text":"像比如說法國或比如說日本等等的這些鐵道也發展成發達的國家他們的架子也是有安裝那到底當初他們怎麼溝通或是說他們的做法怎麼樣那在這一次的因為在這個檢討報告裡面你沒有特別提到說怎麼樣面對這個有時候這些工會的成員他們要求所謂隱私的問題那主委你有沒有機會在這邊講一下到底要怎麼樣兼顧安全跟兼顧隱私的部分各位請主委說明"},{"start":129.774,"end":150.71,"text":"事實上裝這個紀錄器就是影音或者是聲音或者是影像的紀錄器這個他的目的是要為了事故調查嗎那平常平常沒有人會去看因為他只有錄音就是兩小時嘛那兩小時過後之後他就會覆蓋上去那國外或者是我們國內像"},{"start":152.111,"end":173.78,"text":"像我所了解的像桃園集結他就有裝嘛所以說他裝那個攝像機的那個鏡頭角度什麼他只是局部要有一個角度的限制何況裝了之後要去解讀要把它download下來的人還有一定規範的限制並不是任何人可以去看的所以"},{"start":175.699,"end":195.971,"text":"對個人隱私個人各自方面他是應該是應該是不會有這個疑慮但是我們想說鐵炮局他也知道這個要因為這是長久以來這不幾十年來的要突然這樣改變市紀委員公會他們可能有一些觀念要需要鐵炮局跟他們溝通主委謝謝說明因為這個我想"},{"start":197.952,"end":215.978,"text":"這段時間來我想不管是剛剛這麼多委員提到是剛剛十幾位委員大家都提到說最近這個雙鐵的不管是台鐵高鐵都好都是的確都有些駕駛個人的問題導致失誤的發生那當然民眾一個這個高鐵或一個台鐵上面的民眾幾百人在上面"},{"start":216.678,"end":231.57,"text":"所以如果能夠確實的掌握到如果真的出萬一出狀況能夠事後來究責知道真實的原因在哪裡我想對民眾的安全也是非常重要那當然我知道說你們在第一線溝通的時候的確我遇到工會有些反彈但是我們希望你能夠把"},{"start":232.768,"end":260.491,"text":"其他國家或其他的這個案例明確的能夠執行的方案能夠提出來來降低這個反彈的聲音要不然如果是僵在這邊你看從107年發生調查完到現在已經又過了這個6年的時間了6年7年時間那中間也發生了其他的事故那這意外發生一次之後都是很多的人命的所以我希望說這個運動會能夠去加強跟鐵道局也好或跟工會工會是你們溝通嗎還是鐵道局溝通你們只負責調查而已鐵道局溝通嗎"},{"start":260.911,"end":279.998,"text":"我們是建議鐵道局可以譬如說他們可以去就剛剛委員講的去國外去美國去加拿大他們都有這個綠定去觀摩可以找公會的人一起去看不是他想像中這樣子完全是保護個人的國外這部分其他國家的執行案例是由你們提供還是鐵道局自己去考察"},{"start":280.762,"end":302.796,"text":"好對不起我說其他國家的案例其他國家怎麼執行這件事情的案例是由你們越南會來提供相關的幕僚做幕僚資料給鐵道局給交通部還是要由交通部他們自己去調查國外的做法我們有提供資料給他們他們就會去去做審備他們去看好謝謝主委那後續的交通部來我再問他那接下來這個"},{"start":305.253,"end":321.89,"text":"今年2月有修訂的運輸事故調查法來擴大了重大運輸的這個事故範圍那包含了大家很關心的是電動車啦自動駕駛等等的案例列入但是我要跟主委請教的是說從過去幾年立案調查數量來講的話因為你們應該會有分組嘛航空水路鐵道公路"},{"start":322.851,"end":345.891,"text":"那過去這幾年從2018年的數據到現在來講相對來講公路的立案調查數量是最少的當然有可能是因為公路的過去的定義比較嚴格或是公路的這個真的屬於重大事故的案例沒這麼多這當然有可能是數據上呈現的結果是這樣子那問題是說你今年2月把這個所謂的電動車也好自動駕駛的這個先進輔助駕駛系統列入事故調查範圍之後"},{"start":347.953,"end":365.173,"text":"這就等於是公路組的業務嘛那你在這個事情上既然把它入法了那我想問一下你的人事分配上面你的公路組有提升嗎還是用G有的人力會不會遇到人力不足的問題主委你講到重點啦就是因為現在新興硬具"},{"start":365.854,"end":382.229,"text":"或者是一些校車電動車出來我們要調查所以公路組現在我們就把其他組都調人力過去再訓練確實是這樣子沒有錯主委我想跟你確認一下你是說因為你本來是分四組嘛那當然各自有各自的專業你比如說我懂航空的人"},{"start":383.471,"end":404.724,"text":"過去調查的是這個空難的問題或是非常安全的問題來調查那你現在如果公路的量能要提升你們不是重新招考還是直接內部直接調動而已我們說往旗下重新我們有缺從外面招進來然後另外我們把鐵套組一個調查官的缺調過去所以你們是緣而有變動嘛那人呢我是講就是"},{"start":405.785,"end":427.395,"text":"原格當然會變動嘛原格變動沒問題那我講的是專業人才的部分我們擔心的是專業人今天因為你今天既然二月提了二月到現在也才兩月而已啦其實也是蠻近的我只要講說公路組在這部分的專業的部分人是有沒有提升還有另外一件事情是剛好昨天這個教育委員會在修水AIG本法那未來包含自駕車也好或是包含這個駕駛輔助系統"},{"start":428.976,"end":452.095,"text":"可能也都是列在所謂AI基本法的這個狀況裡面所以我要問的是運安會有沒有隨著科技的進步去應聘 聘用更多類似的相關專業人才因為這個公路的定義它不是在過去這樣子因為過去可能就是真的是大型的可能遊覽車事故啦或是大型的這種交通事故才是歸你們調查那未來會不會有這個問題"},{"start":452.936,"end":468.594,"text":"不會 其實剛剛委員講的其實不是只有公路我們其他調查組我們從外面新併新來的考題裡面我們都會跟他講說你對AI的這個都會注入這個議題裡面所以我們也跟著時代科技在進步在與時並進"},{"start":470.916,"end":493.545,"text":"那剛剛講到我們公路組就是因為有些信息抑鬱的事故的發生的案子的增加嘛所以我們人一直在增加所以現在我們四個調查模組裡面就是公路組人最多啊公路組人最多嗎對因為他案子會越來越多對啊我就想擔心這個事情那最後因為時間不夠我最後再跟主委提醒一下我們看到一些數據喔"},{"start":495.038,"end":517.574,"text":"這之前的絕賺報告裡面有人提醒到說這個運營會的剩餘的經費裡面來講最主要都來自於人事費的結餘那我要給主委一個提醒是說像民航局他們在出勤在各項的報案說測試等等的民航局是有一個標準每小時支付多少的金額給這些所謂的這個工作人員"},{"start":519.235,"end":548.191,"text":"我剛提到運安會這部分因為現在既然有所謂新的科技進來那你公務組也要提升相關的人才那你們每年的這個人事費的剩餘也這麼多相對比較多啦這是決算報告裡面提出的這個提醒那我們期待說如果後續在這公務上面你們是不是也能夠訂一個很明確的終點費的支給表讓真正專業人才能夠替運安會在調查過程裡面來服務主委有沒有可能做到這件事情這個我們的研究看看"},{"start":549.113,"end":556.375,"text":"你研究完什麼時候研究要研究多久我也就看看因為究竟不太一樣因為他們就有一點類似灰心蝦子的味道"},{"start":557.714,"end":585.656,"text":"對啊 但是今天你們這個你們今天這麼多這個因為你們其實我講真的我剛剛有一個時間沒有講到就是你們人事的這個流動率相對還是比較高啦我們當然希望你們留才啦你竟然剩這麼多錢我說你每年都剩這麼多這個經費我們當然期待說彈性運用嘛你要幫人才願意幫你做事情那我覺得相關的這個支付的這個標準應該要定出來不要說都是臨時薪水那大家當然算了下來大家就往航空公司跑或往其他外面的公司跑了嘛"},{"start":585.816,"end":605.604,"text":"那我們期待說預案會是我們我國唯一的專業的獨立機構在調查這種安全事故那你的人才如果能夠留下來透過我剛提到的像參考民調局的方式我覺得對這些專業人才來講能夠有個佳績你留才才有這個方向不然你這麼多人是不是要做什麼 主委"},{"start":606.448,"end":619.694,"text":"我們也希望這樣做但是有相關的規範我們還是要研擬研擬看看啦你提出來我們才能夠研擬你要提出來案子我們才能討論嘛好不好主委你回去研究一下啦可不可以好我們去看看好主委謝謝好謝謝謝謝黃建豪委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":779,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（11時50分）好，謝謝主席。主席，我們請運安會林主委。"],["主席：好，林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：主委好。主委，今天針對運安會，本席有一個疑問，剛剛前面有委員提到列管改善事故，臺鐵被列管改善事件有一項關於列車駕駛室能不能依照運安會的調查報告要求安裝聲音影像紀錄器。剛好我今天看到報導，想確認運安會知不知道，雙鐵的狀況多，交通部長也希望駕駛艙能夠裝監視器。我想請教一下，這個案子從107年普悠瑪事故發生到現在經過這麼多年，你們去年也提出相關修法的方向，我想問一下，到底目前的狀況卡在哪裡，為什麼後來又被退回來？是不是工會的反彈，還是有哪裡溝通出現問題，導致到目前為止，雖然提出了檢討報告，但是實際上要在駕駛室安裝相關的監視影像系統，好像有困難是不是？主委。"],["林主任委員信得：我們的建議是給鐵道局，鐵道局當然有它的考量，臺鐵跟工會有在溝通，裝影音或者是攝影機的建議，事實上可以兼顧個人隱私跟公共運輸安全，達到雙贏。"],["黃委員健豪：主委，有沒有機會說明要怎麼兼顧？因為就我們的了解，其實國外比如像法國、日本等等，這些鐵道相對發達的國家，他們的駕駛室也有安裝，到底他們怎麼溝通，或是說作法是怎麼樣，因為在檢討報告裡面，你沒有提到怎麼樣面對工會成員要求隱私的問題，要怎麼兼顧安全跟隱私，可不可以請主委說明？"],["林主任委員信得：事實上裝影音、聲音或者是影像紀錄器，目的是為了事故調查，平常沒有人會去看，錄音錄影2小時過後就會被覆蓋。國外或者是國內，像我所了解到桃園機捷就有裝，裝攝影機鏡頭角度只是局部，有角度的限制，何況裝了之後，要去解讀download還有一定的規範限制，並不是任何人都可以去看，所以對個人隱私、個資方面，應該不會有問題，但是鐵道局也知道幾十年來突然要改變，可能需要鐵道局跟司機員工會溝通。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝主委說明。因為這段時間，我想剛剛十幾位委員都提到，最近雙鐵，不管是臺鐵、高鐵都好，的確有些駕駛個人的問題導致事故的發生，高鐵或臺鐵有幾百人在上面，如果能夠確實掌握，萬一真的出狀況能夠事後來究責，找出原因在哪裡，對民眾的安全也是非常重要。我知道你們在第一線溝通，工會有些反彈，但是希望你能夠把其他國家的案例、能夠執行的方案明確提出來，來降低反彈的聲音，不然一直僵在這邊，你看從107年發生事故調查完到現在，已經過了6、7年，中間也有其他事故，意外發生一次都是很多條人命，所以希望運安會能夠加強跟鐵道局或工會溝通。工會是你們溝通嗎？還是鐵道局溝通，你們只負責調查而已？"],["林主任委員信得：鐵道局溝通。我們是建議鐵道局可以像剛剛委員講的去國外，像是去美國、加拿大觀摩，他們都有相關的律定，可以找工會的人一起去看，瞭解不是他們想像中的樣子，其實是可以保護個人的……"],["黃委員健豪：其他國家的執行案例是由你們提供，還是鐵道局自己去考察？"],["林主任委員信得：對不起？"],["黃委員健豪：我說其他國家怎麼執行的案例，是由運安會來提供相關幕僚的資料給鐵道局、給交通部，還是要由交通部自己去調查國外的作法？"],["林主任委員信得：我們有提供資料給他們，他們就會去survey、去看。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝主委，後續等交通部來我再問。接下來，今年2月有修訂運輸事故調查法，擴大重大運輸事故範圍，包含把大家很關心的電動車、自動駕駛等案例列入，我要跟主委請教，針對過去幾年立案調查的數量，運安會有分組，包括航空、水路、鐵道、公路，從2018年的數據到現在，相對來講公路的立案調查數量是最少的，當然有可能是因為公路過去的定義比較嚴格，或是公路真的屬於重大事故的案例沒那麼多，有可能是數據上呈現的結果是這樣。我想問的是今年2月把所謂的電動車自動駕駛等先進駕駛輔助系統列入事故調查範圍之後，就等於是公路組的業務，在這個事情上，既然把它入法，我想問你們人事分配上，公路組有提升嗎？還是是用既有的人？會不會遇到人力不足的問題？主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員講到重點了，就是因為現在新興運具或者是一些校車、電動車出來，我們要調查，所以公路組現在把其他組人力都調過去再訓練，確實是這樣子沒有錯。"],["黃委員健豪：主委，我想跟你確認一下，你們本來是分四組，各自有各自的專業，懂航空的人過去是調查空難的問題，或是調查飛航安全的問題，現在如果公路的量能要提升，你們不是重新招考，而是內部直接調動而已？"],["林主任委員信得：我們是雙管齊下，有開缺從外面招考，也有把鐵道組一個調查官的缺調過去。"],["黃委員健豪：所以你們員額有變動，那人呢？員額當然會變動沒問題，我講的是專業人才的部分，我們擔心的是專業人才，因為你既然2月提了，2月到現在也才2個月而已，其實也是滿近的，我要問公路組在專業人事的部分有沒有提升？","還有剛好昨天教育委員會在修AI基本法，未來包含自駕車也好，或是包含駕駛輔助系統，可能也都列在AI基本法裡面。所以我要問運安會有沒有隨著科技進步去聘用更多相關專業人才，因為公路的定義不再是過去這樣子，過去可能就是大型的遊覽車事故，或是大型交通事故才是歸你們調查，未來會不會有這個問題？"],["林主任委員信得：不會，剛剛委員講的，其實不是只有公路，我們其他調查組從外面招考或新併進來的，考題當中都會注入AI的議題，所以我們也跟著時代、科技在進步，與時俱進。剛剛講到公路組就是因為新興運具事故發生案件的增加，我們人一直在增加，所以現在4個調查模組就是公路調查組人最多。"],["黃委員健豪：公路組人最多嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：對，因為案子會越來越多。"],["黃委員健豪：我就是擔心這個事情。因為時間不夠，我最後再提醒主委，我們看到一些數據，之前的決算報告有人提醒運安會賸餘的經費，最主要都來自於人事費的結餘。像民航局在出勤、在各項測試等等，都是有一個標準，每小時支付多少金額給工作人員。剛剛提到運安會既然有新的科技進來，公路組也要提升相關的人才，決算報告提到你們每年人事費賸餘也相對比較多，我們期待後續在公路上面，你們是不是也能夠訂一個很明確的鐘點支給表，讓真正的專業人才能夠替運安會服務。主委，有沒有可能做到這件事情？"],["林主任委員信得：這個我們研究看看。"],["黃委員健豪：你研究要研究多久？"],["林主任委員信得：我們研究看看，因為終究不太一樣，他們有一點類似飛行加給的味道。"],["黃委員健豪：對啊，但是你們今天賸餘這麼多，其實我剛剛還有一個沒有講到，就是你們人事流動率相對比較高，我們希望你們留才，既然每年都剩這麼多經費，我們當然期待能彈性運用，讓人才願意幫你做事，相關支付標準一定要訂出來，不要說都是領死薪水，這樣專業人才當然就往航空公司跑或是往其他外面的公司跑了。運安會是我國調查這種安全事故唯一的專業獨立機構，你們的人才如果能夠留下來，透過我剛才說的參考民航局的方式，我覺得對這些專業人才來講，能有個加給，你們留才才有方向，不然你們這麼多人事費要做什麼？主委。"],["林主任委員信得：我們也希望能有這樣的措施，但是有相關的規範，我們還是要研擬看看啦！"],["黃委員健豪：你要把案子提出來，我們才能討論嘛！主委，你回去研究一下，可不可以？"],["林主任委員信得：好，我們看看。"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝主委。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員，高金素梅委員不在。","陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員，陳冠廷委員不在。","現在請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":470,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","魯明哲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","林俊憲","徐富癸","廖先翔","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","黃健豪","葉元之","張啓楷"],"page_start":421,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143901_00013"}}}