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\"啊\", \"start\": 756.438, \"end\": 756.598, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 756.598, \"end\": 756.678, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 756.678, \"end\": 756.698, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 756.698, \"end\": 756.818, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"輩\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 756.818, \"end\": 756.958, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 756.958, \"end\": 757.038, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 757.038, \"end\": 757.058, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 757.058, \"end\": 757.098, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 757.098, \"end\": 757.698, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"限\", \"start\": 757.698, \"end\": 757.818, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 757.818, \"end\": 758.158, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 758.158, \"end\": 758.218, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, 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{\"word\": \"盈\", \"start\": 807.154, \"end\": 807.294, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 807.294, \"end\": 807.314, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:13,933 --> 00:00:30,904\n好謝主席那那個因為我還是在這邊再次謝謝部長幫助台東所以我今天就不請您上台了首先我想先請我請那個勞動部信任職安署林署長\n\n2\n00:00:43,619 --> 00:01:05,747\n來麻煩林署長林副署長林玉堂林副署長是這樣子我想先請教您說是否贊成開放植栽報告我想了解一下您的態度\n\n3\n00:01:11,013 --> 00:01:27,126\n有關職業災害的資料的透明化跟公開揭露這個是我們紅部長一直在要我們這邊在做努力的方向目前其實在部裡面目前的一個有關職業災害的資訊的揭露已經有很多平台\n\n4\n00:01:28,027 --> 00:01:54,958\n但是呢並沒有把整個報告書整個送到這個平台上因為這是涉及到這個相關的一個規範那但是個案做成宣導資料或是災害發生的地點原因然後罰款金額等等我們在我們其他的公開平台都有放你說現在目前公告的是重大職災我們看一下你們公告的這個部分\n\n5\n00:01:56,584 --> 00:02:23,738\n最後最後一頁吧其實就是這麼簡單我那天已經有放過這一張了就是這個離災人數然後地點工程名稱就這樣那這個完全看不出對未來是沒有幫助的所以我接下來我再請教就是局限空間是不是室內作業\n\n6\n00:02:28,508 --> 00:02:49,704\n局限空間它基本上就是我們這個勞工在進出這個工作的那個場域它受限那是不是室內呢那就要看因情形而定如果說以這個建築物來講地下室裡面它就有可能會有一個所謂的這個需要一個人孔蓋打開以後人進去那這個就是局限空間是\n\n7\n00:02:54,425 --> 00:03:17,288\n我希望你可以不要被你們的原來的署長影響因為我的答案很簡單我的問題很簡單就是局限空間是不是室內作業是或者不是而已如果以我剛剛舉的例子就是室內作業沒有錯好那有含釋嗎\n\n8\n00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:41,440\n沒有特別就這個部分因為好像我們也沒有受到這樣的一個需要我們這邊有在問答因為我幫你統計了其實目前從以前到現在應該有八個那最近一個月連續發生了三件侷限空間作業時的災害包括了3月23號台中金屬表面處理業\n\n9\n00:03:43,101 --> 00:04:01,429\n還有清洗污水槽作業造成四人中毒昏迷兩人身體不適住院觀察還有4月10號桃園下水道罕管內從事纜線檢查作業一人被大水沖走了溺斃死亡4月13日斗六食品工廠兩個兄弟\n\n10\n00:04:03,190 --> 00:04:22,650\n從事這個伐機抽水作業吸入硫化氫中毒死亡總共造成36住院發生頻率有上升的情形那如何避免這個室內侷限空間的危害指安署應該要有積極的對策不曉得您認不認同我剛講的\n\n11\n00:04:26,133 --> 00:04:51,792\n那特別是在這個月的13日雲林縣斗六市這一家食品公司傳出了兩死公安意外那黃姓兄弟進行雨水回收的池閥機抽水時因為吸入了這個早期昏迷跌落回收池逆避那職安署的中區職安中心14日的時候有表示池水中含有高濃度的硫化氫\n\n12\n00:04:52,532 --> 00:05:18,811\n是這次植栽主要的原因喔那這個訊息是不是正確跟委員報告目前整個案子的詳細發生原因我們的植栽正在進行調查進行那這個是我們初步當天我們的勞檢員在案發後初步到現場初步了解的原因是不是那是不是食品公司都有類似的回收池有吧\n\n13\n00:05:20,251 --> 00:05:35,379\n那是不是回收池就一定會抽水那會抽水的話就容易造成這個硫化氫跑出來那這種有毒的物質事業單位跟這個勞工如果知道了你覺得他們還會冒險從事這樣有死亡死亡風險的作業嗎不會\n\n14\n00:05:37,756 --> 00:05:59,163\n好那這樣反應都很正常那如果這樣的案例讓所有的回收池可能產生硫化氫的業者包括外包商知道別人發生了而他們可能也會發生難道他們就不會想要預防嗎應該是會吧他們也應該會去遵守安全措施吧\n\n15\n00:06:00,023 --> 00:06:24,803\n可是呢這樣的案例一直在發生喔所以本席才會一直請你們說要開放職災調查報告我已經講了很多次那我要再請教就是全國各種行業以及這個從事局限空間作業的勞工你們有掌握嗎你們可不可以透過這個調查或跨部會的合作來掌握可能發生的這個行職業跟勞工\n\n16\n00:06:26,604 --> 00:06:54,446\n是跟委員報告確實我們有跟國土署這邊內政部國土署這邊有在合作像包括下水道的這些資料等等我們有陸續在跟各部會有在做資料的一個互相的一個借解所以狀況如何你們行業別都完全有掌握嗎跟委員報告大概沒有辦法完全掌握而且還有臨時工的部分臨時工的部分你們有掌握嗎\n\n17\n00:06:55,599 --> 00:07:12,538\n這困難度非常高因為他有時候作業只有半天或兩個小時就離開了特別是我們很多族人又特別臨時工又特別多那這個部分所以要請你們再加把勁那你們可不可以根據這些慘痛的教訓去宣導\n\n18\n00:07:13,917 --> 00:07:39,879\n沒問題那為什麼就是說因為看來大部分的時候你們都是只會去勞動檢查然後出事了呢就調查開罰然後就沒了因為大家不知道發生的原因跟狀況也沒有辦法從中得到教訓所以大家不懂得預防所以同類型的這個災害就不斷的發生嘛\n\n19\n00:07:41,300 --> 00:07:59,493\n接下來呢發生之後接下來就是等著這個新聞報導去就是應該是說你們在調查開罰之後然後實在調查報告批示完你們就存檔了嘛\n\n20\n00:08:00,455 --> 00:08:27,566\n好存檔了因為封起來存檔了所以才會有我剛剛講的那個狀況那再來就是等著這個新聞報導去講這個不幸的悲劇啊好所以這個是一個二循環那就是說這些調查報告其實是可以去個資之後那就是說為什麼不能公務使用我是覺得很莫名其妙\n\n21\n00:08:28,286 --> 00:08:55,280\n那其他的這個重大職災也是一樣針對特定這個暴露風險族群去做有效的預防宣導我相信像火災的爆炸然後墜落還有這個侷限空間都是一樣的預防原則就是要有效的定期的教育訓練那我相信沒有人是願意這個冒著生命危險去做這些工作啦\n\n22\n00:08:55,720 --> 00:09:20,604\n只要他们能够知道说危险是什么在哪里怎么预防那别人是怎么发生意外的我想这些都是你们这个职灾调查报告的一个非常宝贵的资讯一定要揭露那我再请教就是职灾调查报告经过你们批准之后是不是就封存在自己内部欣赏了\n\n23\n00:09:22,070 --> 00:09:50,708\n目前看起來好像是這樣公文報告職災調查報告基本上到最後整個公文的最後存檔之前其實我們還是會做剛剛委員關心的這個宣導那確實這個光看很多剛剛舉的那些例子光靠勞解是絕對不夠的我這樣問因為我比較關心那個職災調查報告的部分我沒有要問你說宣導什麼東西那現在就是\n\n24\n00:09:52,949 --> 00:10:19,525\n剛剛就說你報告完基本上就內部封城你沒有就是完整的公告嗎沒有啊沒有完整的公布啊我們剛剛你如果忘記我可以再放一次給你看還要嗎第三次不用了吧那多久以後會把它key進資料庫對你們多久通常實在發生多久之後你們會把它key進資料庫\n\n25\n00:10:20,711 --> 00:10:35,287\n跟微報告我們從這個案子開始啟動調查就進入到資訊系統了所以整個都在系統裡面好那我可以請你提供這個存檔的格式給本席嗎好那再來你們現在的電腦存檔存了多少筆資料跟微報告這個資料旁邊的人知道嗎\n\n26\n00:10:41,448 --> 00:10:50,994\n我們這個系統非常龐大從民國93年都電運到現在所以你回去看一下目前提供給職災勞工的家屬大概有多少比例\n\n27\n00:10:53,202 --> 00:11:19,096\n如果重大實災的話基本上檢查報告書會去掉很多比較這個應該其實大部分百分之八十有十的資訊都提供給家屬你確定都提供給家屬因為很多的家屬跟我們反映實際的案例就是說家屬還要跟你們申請也未必申請得到完整的資訊而且都非常依賴這個檢查機關或者法院來調卷\n\n28\n00:11:20,896 --> 00:11:48,778\n很多這樣的比例不高嗎確實是現在目前是由家屬來跟我們索取資料的時候再提供我知道啊家屬一定會找你們要但是你們到底給多少嗎我想我只是點出這個那你如果覺得說家屬跟你們調你們就給完整的資訊你敢在這裡拍胸脯保證那可能拍令很快會下來你看看\n\n29\n00:11:50,713 --> 00:12:06,243\n講話要很我說你答詢要很注意啦你回頭去看看啦家屬調閱到底拿到多少資訊再不然又有多少是勞師動眾讓檢調機關跟法院來調卷的你回去換算一下比例啊\n\n30\n00:12:06,843 --> 00:12:26,628\n好那我希望是說透過這一次的植栽的這個教訓悲劇可以不要再發生那最重要的是你們的資料能不能有效的應用那這個事情能不能順利的進行關鍵在於植栽署能不能開放你們就是剛剛講的這些資料那你們什麼時候才可以opendata\n\n31\n00:12:29,456 --> 00:12:38,798\n委員應該是有在委員會的提案那這個部分我們目前正在研議也在處理說怎麼樣讓這個職業障礙的一個資料盡量公開那你預估大概需要多久的時間研議啊不會研議一輩子嗎任期都有限啊委員給我們三個月的時間好不好\n\n32\n00:12:49,980 --> 00:13:04,328\n我記得我質詢的要求我通常不會給人家到三個月那麼久應該最多都到兩個月而已是那就兩個月是謝謝好那我如果說今天一個月你行嗎喂那就兩個月謝謝\n\n33\n00:13:05,589 --> 00:13:27,314\n好啦那就兩個月齁那你們好好研究希望兩個月後就有好消息所以我最後也希望說環境部跟這個經濟部各機關齁大家可以一起來協助治安署來掌握各個事業單位的這個高風險的這個設備跟機具然後大家一起為這個室內作業的有毒物質預防曝露一起盡一份心力好謝謝謝謝陳盈委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n13933\t30904\t好 謝主席那那個因為我還是在這邊再次謝謝部長幫助台東所以我今天就不請您上台了首先我想先請我請那個勞動部信任職安署林署長\n43619\t65747\t來麻煩林署長林副署長林玉堂林副署長是這樣子我想先請教您說是否贊成開放植栽報告我想了解一下您的態度\n71013\t87126\t有關職業災害的資料的透明化跟公開揭露這個是我們紅部長一直在要我們這邊在做努力的方向目前其實在部裡面目前的一個有關職業災害的資訊的揭露已經有很多平台\n88027\t114958\t但是呢並沒有把整個報告書整個送到這個平台上因為這是涉及到這個相關的一個規範那但是個案做成宣導資料或是災害發生的地點原因然後罰款金額等等我們在我們其他的公開平台都有放你說現在目前公告的是重大職災我們看一下你們公告的這個部分\n116584\t143738\t最後最後一頁吧其實就是這麼簡單我那天已經有放過這一張了就是這個離災人數然後地點工程名稱就這樣那這個完全看不出對未來是沒有幫助的所以我接下來我再請教就是局限空間是不是室內作業\n148508\t169704\t局限空間它基本上就是我們這個勞工在進出這個工作的那個場域它受限那是不是室內呢那就要看因情形而定如果說以這個建築物來講地下室裡面它就有可能會有一個所謂的這個需要一個人孔蓋打開以後人進去那這個就是局限空間是\n174425\t197288\t我希望你可以不要被你們的原來的署長影響因為我的答案很簡單我的問題很簡單就是局限空間是不是室內作業是或者不是而已如果以我剛剛舉的例子就是室內作業沒有錯好那有含釋嗎\n201280\t221440\t沒有特別就這個部分因為好像我們也沒有受到這樣的一個需要我們這邊有在問答因為我幫你統計了其實目前從以前到現在應該有八個那最近一個月連續發生了三件侷限空間作業時的災害包括了3月23號台中金屬表面處理業\n223101\t241429\t還有清洗污水槽作業造成四人中毒昏迷兩人身體不適住院觀察還有4月10號桃園下水道罕管內從事纜線檢查作業一人被大水沖走了溺斃死亡4月13日斗六食品工廠兩個兄弟\n243190\t262650\t從事這個伐機抽水作業吸入硫化氫中毒死亡總共造成36住院發生頻率有上升的情形那如何避免這個室內侷限空間的危害指安署應該要有積極的對策不曉得您認不認同我剛講的\n266133\t291792\t那特別是在這個月的13日雲林縣斗六市這一家食品公司傳出了兩死公安意外那黃姓兄弟進行雨水回收的池閥機抽水時因為吸入了這個早期昏迷跌落回收池逆避那職安署的中區職安中心14日的時候有表示池水中含有高濃度的硫化氫\n292532\t318811\t是這次植栽主要的原因喔那這個訊息是不是正確跟委員報告目前整個案子的詳細發生原因我們的植栽正在進行調查進行那這個是我們初步當天我們的勞檢員在案發後初步到現場初步了解的原因是不是那是不是食品公司都有類似的回收池有吧\n320251\t335379\t那是不是回收池就一定會抽水那會抽水的話就容易造成這個硫化氫跑出來那這種有毒的物質事業單位跟這個勞工如果知道了你覺得他們還會冒險從事這樣有死亡死亡風險的作業嗎不會\n337756\t359163\t好 那這樣反應都很正常那如果這樣的案例讓所有的回收池可能產生硫化氫的業者包括外包商知道別人發生了而他們可能也會發生難道他們就不會想要預防嗎應該是會吧他們也應該會去遵守安全措施吧\n360023\t384803\t可是呢這樣的案例一直在發生喔所以本席才會一直請你們說要開放職災調查報告我已經講了很多次那我要再請教就是全國各種行業以及這個從事局限空間作業的勞工你們有掌握嗎你們可不可以透過這個調查或跨部會的合作來掌握可能發生的這個行職業跟勞工\n386604\t414446\t是跟委員報告確實我們有跟國土署這邊內政部國土署這邊有在合作像包括下水道的這些資料等等我們有陸續在跟各部會有在做資料的一個互相的一個借解所以狀況如何你們行業別都完全有掌握嗎跟委員報告大概沒有辦法完全掌握而且還有臨時工的部分臨時工的部分你們有掌握嗎\n415599\t432538\t這困難度非常高因為他有時候作業只有半天或兩個小時就離開了特別是我們很多族人又特別臨時工又特別多那這個部分所以要請你們再加把勁那你們可不可以根據這些慘痛的教訓去宣導\n433917\t459879\t沒問題那為什麼就是說因為看來大部分的時候你們都是只會去勞動檢查然後出事了呢就調查開罰然後就沒了因為大家不知道發生的原因跟狀況也沒有辦法從中得到教訓所以大家不懂得預防所以同類型的這個災害就不斷的發生嘛\n461300\t479493\t接下來呢發生之後接下來就是等著這個新聞報導去就是應該是說你們在調查開罰之後然後實在調查報告批示完你們就存檔了嘛\n480455\t507566\t好 存檔了 因為封起來存檔了所以才會有我剛剛講的那個狀況那再來就是等著這個新聞報導去講這個不幸的悲劇啊好 所以這個是一個二循環那就是說這些調查報告其實是可以去個資之後那就是說為什麼不能公務使用我是覺得很莫名其妙\n508286\t535280\t那其他的這個重大職災也是一樣針對特定這個暴露風險族群去做有效的預防宣導我相信像火災的爆炸然後墜落還有這個侷限空間都是一樣的預防原則就是要有效的定期的教育訓練那我相信沒有人是願意這個冒著生命危險去做這些工作啦\n535720\t560604\t只要他们能够知道说危险是什么在哪里怎么预防那别人是怎么发生意外的我想这些都是你们这个职灾调查报告的一个非常宝贵的资讯一定要揭露那我再请教就是职灾调查报告经过你们批准之后是不是就封存在自己内部欣赏了\n562070\t590708\t目前看起來好像是這樣公文報告 職災調查報告基本上到最後整個公文的最後存檔之前其實我們還是會做剛剛委員關心的這個宣導那確實這個光看 很多剛剛舉的那些例子光靠勞解是絕對不夠的我這樣問 因為我比較關心那個職災調查報告的部分我沒有要問你說宣導什麼東西那現在就是\n592949\t619525\t剛剛就說你報告完基本上就內部封城你沒有就是完整的公告嗎沒有啊沒有完整的公布啊我們剛剛你如果忘記我可以再放一次給你看還要嗎第三次不用了吧那多久以後會把它key進資料庫對你們多久通常實在發生多久之後你們會把它key進資料庫\n620711\t635287\t跟微報告我們從這個案子開始啟動調查就進入到資訊系統了所以整個都在系統裡面好那我可以請你提供這個存檔的格式給本席嗎好那再來你們現在的電腦存檔存了多少筆資料跟微報告這個資料旁邊的人知道嗎\n641448\t650994\t我們這個系統非常龐大 從民國93年都電運到現在所以你回去看一下目前提供給職災勞工的家屬大概有多少比例\n653202\t679096\t如果重大實災的話基本上檢查報告書會去掉很多比較這個應該其實大部分百分之八十有十的資訊都提供給家屬你確定都提供給家屬因為很多的家屬跟我們反映實際的案例就是說家屬還要跟你們申請也未必申請得到完整的資訊而且都非常依賴這個檢查機關或者法院來調卷\n680896\t708778\t很多這樣的比例不高嗎確實是現在目前是由家屬來跟我們索取資料的時候再提供我知道啊家屬一定會找你們要但是你們到底給多少嗎我想我只是點出這個那你如果覺得說家屬跟你們調你們就給完整的資訊你敢在這裡拍胸脯保證那可能拍令很快會下來你看看\n710713\t726243\t講話要很我說你答詢要很注意啦你回頭去看看啦家屬調閱到底拿到多少資訊再不然又有多少是勞師動眾讓檢調機關跟法院來調卷的你回去換算一下比例啊\n726843\t746628\t好那我希望是說透過這一次的植栽的這個教訓悲劇可以不要再發生那最重要的是你們的資料能不能有效的應用那這個事情能不能順利的進行關鍵在於植栽署能不能開放你們就是剛剛講的這些資料那你們什麼時候才可以open data\n749456\t758798\t委員應該是有在委員會的提案那這個部分我們目前正在研議也在處理說怎麼樣讓這個職業障礙的一個資料盡量公開那你預估大概需要多久的時間研議啊不會研議一輩子嗎任期都有限啊委員給我們三個月的時間好不好\n769980\t784328\t我記得我質詢的要求我通常不會給人家到三個月那麼久應該最多都到兩個月而已是那就兩個月是謝謝好那我如果說今天一個月你行嗎喂那就兩個月謝謝\n785589\t807314\t好啦那就兩個月齁那你們好好研究 希望兩個月後就有好消息所以我最後也希望說環境部跟這個經濟部各機關齁大家可以一起來協助治安署來掌握各個事業單位的這個高風險的這個設備跟機具然後大家一起為這個室內作業的有毒物質預防曝露一起盡一份心力好謝謝謝謝陳盈委員\n","txt":"好 謝主席那那個因為我還是在這邊再次謝謝部長幫助台東所以我今天就不請您上台了首先我想先請我請那個勞動部信任職安署林署長\n來麻煩林署長林副署長林玉堂林副署長是這樣子我想先請教您說是否贊成開放植栽報告我想了解一下您的態度\n有關職業災害的資料的透明化跟公開揭露這個是我們紅部長一直在要我們這邊在做努力的方向目前其實在部裡面目前的一個有關職業災害的資訊的揭露已經有很多平台\n但是呢並沒有把整個報告書整個送到這個平台上因為這是涉及到這個相關的一個規範那但是個案做成宣導資料或是災害發生的地點原因然後罰款金額等等我們在我們其他的公開平台都有放你說現在目前公告的是重大職災我們看一下你們公告的這個部分\n最後最後一頁吧其實就是這麼簡單我那天已經有放過這一張了就是這個離災人數然後地點工程名稱就這樣那這個完全看不出對未來是沒有幫助的所以我接下來我再請教就是局限空間是不是室內作業\n局限空間它基本上就是我們這個勞工在進出這個工作的那個場域它受限那是不是室內呢那就要看因情形而定如果說以這個建築物來講地下室裡面它就有可能會有一個所謂的這個需要一個人孔蓋打開以後人進去那這個就是局限空間是\n我希望你可以不要被你們的原來的署長影響因為我的答案很簡單我的問題很簡單就是局限空間是不是室內作業是或者不是而已如果以我剛剛舉的例子就是室內作業沒有錯好那有含釋嗎\n沒有特別就這個部分因為好像我們也沒有受到這樣的一個需要我們這邊有在問答因為我幫你統計了其實目前從以前到現在應該有八個那最近一個月連續發生了三件侷限空間作業時的災害包括了3月23號台中金屬表面處理業\n還有清洗污水槽作業造成四人中毒昏迷兩人身體不適住院觀察還有4月10號桃園下水道罕管內從事纜線檢查作業一人被大水沖走了溺斃死亡4月13日斗六食品工廠兩個兄弟\n從事這個伐機抽水作業吸入硫化氫中毒死亡總共造成36住院發生頻率有上升的情形那如何避免這個室內侷限空間的危害指安署應該要有積極的對策不曉得您認不認同我剛講的\n那特別是在這個月的13日雲林縣斗六市這一家食品公司傳出了兩死公安意外那黃姓兄弟進行雨水回收的池閥機抽水時因為吸入了這個早期昏迷跌落回收池逆避那職安署的中區職安中心14日的時候有表示池水中含有高濃度的硫化氫\n是這次植栽主要的原因喔那這個訊息是不是正確跟委員報告目前整個案子的詳細發生原因我們的植栽正在進行調查進行那這個是我們初步當天我們的勞檢員在案發後初步到現場初步了解的原因是不是那是不是食品公司都有類似的回收池有吧\n那是不是回收池就一定會抽水那會抽水的話就容易造成這個硫化氫跑出來那這種有毒的物質事業單位跟這個勞工如果知道了你覺得他們還會冒險從事這樣有死亡死亡風險的作業嗎不會\n好 那這樣反應都很正常那如果這樣的案例讓所有的回收池可能產生硫化氫的業者包括外包商知道別人發生了而他們可能也會發生難道他們就不會想要預防嗎應該是會吧他們也應該會去遵守安全措施吧\n可是呢這樣的案例一直在發生喔所以本席才會一直請你們說要開放職災調查報告我已經講了很多次那我要再請教就是全國各種行業以及這個從事局限空間作業的勞工你們有掌握嗎你們可不可以透過這個調查或跨部會的合作來掌握可能發生的這個行職業跟勞工\n是跟委員報告確實我們有跟國土署這邊內政部國土署這邊有在合作像包括下水道的這些資料等等我們有陸續在跟各部會有在做資料的一個互相的一個借解所以狀況如何你們行業別都完全有掌握嗎跟委員報告大概沒有辦法完全掌握而且還有臨時工的部分臨時工的部分你們有掌握嗎\n這困難度非常高因為他有時候作業只有半天或兩個小時就離開了特別是我們很多族人又特別臨時工又特別多那這個部分所以要請你們再加把勁那你們可不可以根據這些慘痛的教訓去宣導\n沒問題那為什麼就是說因為看來大部分的時候你們都是只會去勞動檢查然後出事了呢就調查開罰然後就沒了因為大家不知道發生的原因跟狀況也沒有辦法從中得到教訓所以大家不懂得預防所以同類型的這個災害就不斷的發生嘛\n接下來呢發生之後接下來就是等著這個新聞報導去就是應該是說你們在調查開罰之後然後實在調查報告批示完你們就存檔了嘛\n好 存檔了 因為封起來存檔了所以才會有我剛剛講的那個狀況那再來就是等著這個新聞報導去講這個不幸的悲劇啊好 所以這個是一個二循環那就是說這些調查報告其實是可以去個資之後那就是說為什麼不能公務使用我是覺得很莫名其妙\n那其他的這個重大職災也是一樣針對特定這個暴露風險族群去做有效的預防宣導我相信像火災的爆炸然後墜落還有這個侷限空間都是一樣的預防原則就是要有效的定期的教育訓練那我相信沒有人是願意這個冒著生命危險去做這些工作啦\n只要他们能够知道说危险是什么在哪里怎么预防那别人是怎么发生意外的我想这些都是你们这个职灾调查报告的一个非常宝贵的资讯一定要揭露那我再请教就是职灾调查报告经过你们批准之后是不是就封存在自己内部欣赏了\n目前看起來好像是這樣公文報告 職災調查報告基本上到最後整個公文的最後存檔之前其實我們還是會做剛剛委員關心的這個宣導那確實這個光看 很多剛剛舉的那些例子光靠勞解是絕對不夠的我這樣問 因為我比較關心那個職災調查報告的部分我沒有要問你說宣導什麼東西那現在就是\n剛剛就說你報告完基本上就內部封城你沒有就是完整的公告嗎沒有啊沒有完整的公布啊我們剛剛你如果忘記我可以再放一次給你看還要嗎第三次不用了吧那多久以後會把它key進資料庫對你們多久通常實在發生多久之後你們會把它key進資料庫\n跟微報告我們從這個案子開始啟動調查就進入到資訊系統了所以整個都在系統裡面好那我可以請你提供這個存檔的格式給本席嗎好那再來你們現在的電腦存檔存了多少筆資料跟微報告這個資料旁邊的人知道嗎\n我們這個系統非常龐大 從民國93年都電運到現在所以你回去看一下目前提供給職災勞工的家屬大概有多少比例\n如果重大實災的話基本上檢查報告書會去掉很多比較這個應該其實大部分百分之八十有十的資訊都提供給家屬你確定都提供給家屬因為很多的家屬跟我們反映實際的案例就是說家屬還要跟你們申請也未必申請得到完整的資訊而且都非常依賴這個檢查機關或者法院來調卷\n很多這樣的比例不高嗎確實是現在目前是由家屬來跟我們索取資料的時候再提供我知道啊家屬一定會找你們要但是你們到底給多少嗎我想我只是點出這個那你如果覺得說家屬跟你們調你們就給完整的資訊你敢在這裡拍胸脯保證那可能拍令很快會下來你看看\n講話要很我說你答詢要很注意啦你回頭去看看啦家屬調閱到底拿到多少資訊再不然又有多少是勞師動眾讓檢調機關跟法院來調卷的你回去換算一下比例啊\n好那我希望是說透過這一次的植栽的這個教訓悲劇可以不要再發生那最重要的是你們的資料能不能有效的應用那這個事情能不能順利的進行關鍵在於植栽署能不能開放你們就是剛剛講的這些資料那你們什麼時候才可以open data\n委員應該是有在委員會的提案那這個部分我們目前正在研議也在處理說怎麼樣讓這個職業障礙的一個資料盡量公開那你預估大概需要多久的時間研議啊不會研議一輩子嗎任期都有限啊委員給我們三個月的時間好不好\n我記得我質詢的要求我通常不會給人家到三個月那麼久應該最多都到兩個月而已是那就兩個月是謝謝好那我如果說今天一個月你行嗎喂那就兩個月謝謝\n好啦那就兩個月齁那你們好好研究 希望兩個月後就有好消息所以我最後也希望說環境部跟這個經濟部各機關齁大家可以一起來協助治安署來掌握各個事業單位的這個高風險的這個設備跟機具然後大家一起為這個室內作業的有毒物質預防曝露一起盡一份心力好謝謝謝謝陳盈委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:13.933 --> 00:30.904\n好謝主席那那個因為我還是在這邊再次謝謝部長幫助台東所以我今天就不請您上台了首先我想先請我請那個勞動部信任職安署林署長\n\n00:43.619 --> 01:05.747\n來麻煩林署長林副署長林玉堂林副署長是這樣子我想先請教您說是否贊成開放植栽報告我想了解一下您的態度\n\n01:11.013 --> 01:27.126\n有關職業災害的資料的透明化跟公開揭露這個是我們紅部長一直在要我們這邊在做努力的方向目前其實在部裡面目前的一個有關職業災害的資訊的揭露已經有很多平台\n\n01:28.027 --> 01:54.958\n但是呢並沒有把整個報告書整個送到這個平台上因為這是涉及到這個相關的一個規範那但是個案做成宣導資料或是災害發生的地點原因然後罰款金額等等我們在我們其他的公開平台都有放你說現在目前公告的是重大職災我們看一下你們公告的這個部分\n\n01:56.584 --> 02:23.738\n最後最後一頁吧其實就是這麼簡單我那天已經有放過這一張了就是這個離災人數然後地點工程名稱就這樣那這個完全看不出對未來是沒有幫助的所以我接下來我再請教就是局限空間是不是室內作業\n\n02:28.508 --> 02:49.704\n局限空間它基本上就是我們這個勞工在進出這個工作的那個場域它受限那是不是室內呢那就要看因情形而定如果說以這個建築物來講地下室裡面它就有可能會有一個所謂的這個需要一個人孔蓋打開以後人進去那這個就是局限空間是\n\n02:54.425 --> 03:17.288\n我希望你可以不要被你們的原來的署長影響因為我的答案很簡單我的問題很簡單就是局限空間是不是室內作業是或者不是而已如果以我剛剛舉的例子就是室內作業沒有錯好那有含釋嗎\n\n03:21.280 --> 03:41.440\n沒有特別就這個部分因為好像我們也沒有受到這樣的一個需要我們這邊有在問答因為我幫你統計了其實目前從以前到現在應該有八個那最近一個月連續發生了三件侷限空間作業時的災害包括了3月23號台中金屬表面處理業\n\n03:43.101 --> 04:01.429\n還有清洗污水槽作業造成四人中毒昏迷兩人身體不適住院觀察還有4月10號桃園下水道罕管內從事纜線檢查作業一人被大水沖走了溺斃死亡4月13日斗六食品工廠兩個兄弟\n\n04:03.190 --> 04:22.650\n從事這個伐機抽水作業吸入硫化氫中毒死亡總共造成36住院發生頻率有上升的情形那如何避免這個室內侷限空間的危害指安署應該要有積極的對策不曉得您認不認同我剛講的\n\n04:26.133 --> 04:51.792\n那特別是在這個月的13日雲林縣斗六市這一家食品公司傳出了兩死公安意外那黃姓兄弟進行雨水回收的池閥機抽水時因為吸入了這個早期昏迷跌落回收池逆避那職安署的中區職安中心14日的時候有表示池水中含有高濃度的硫化氫\n\n04:52.532 --> 05:18.811\n是這次植栽主要的原因喔那這個訊息是不是正確跟委員報告目前整個案子的詳細發生原因我們的植栽正在進行調查進行那這個是我們初步當天我們的勞檢員在案發後初步到現場初步了解的原因是不是那是不是食品公司都有類似的回收池有吧\n\n05:20.251 --> 05:35.379\n那是不是回收池就一定會抽水那會抽水的話就容易造成這個硫化氫跑出來那這種有毒的物質事業單位跟這個勞工如果知道了你覺得他們還會冒險從事這樣有死亡死亡風險的作業嗎不會\n\n05:37.756 --> 05:59.163\n好那這樣反應都很正常那如果這樣的案例讓所有的回收池可能產生硫化氫的業者包括外包商知道別人發生了而他們可能也會發生難道他們就不會想要預防嗎應該是會吧他們也應該會去遵守安全措施吧\n\n06:00.023 --> 06:24.803\n可是呢這樣的案例一直在發生喔所以本席才會一直請你們說要開放職災調查報告我已經講了很多次那我要再請教就是全國各種行業以及這個從事局限空間作業的勞工你們有掌握嗎你們可不可以透過這個調查或跨部會的合作來掌握可能發生的這個行職業跟勞工\n\n06:26.604 --> 06:54.446\n是跟委員報告確實我們有跟國土署這邊內政部國土署這邊有在合作像包括下水道的這些資料等等我們有陸續在跟各部會有在做資料的一個互相的一個借解所以狀況如何你們行業別都完全有掌握嗎跟委員報告大概沒有辦法完全掌握而且還有臨時工的部分臨時工的部分你們有掌握嗎\n\n06:55.599 --> 07:12.538\n這困難度非常高因為他有時候作業只有半天或兩個小時就離開了特別是我們很多族人又特別臨時工又特別多那這個部分所以要請你們再加把勁那你們可不可以根據這些慘痛的教訓去宣導\n\n07:13.917 --> 07:39.879\n沒問題那為什麼就是說因為看來大部分的時候你們都是只會去勞動檢查然後出事了呢就調查開罰然後就沒了因為大家不知道發生的原因跟狀況也沒有辦法從中得到教訓所以大家不懂得預防所以同類型的這個災害就不斷的發生嘛\n\n07:41.300 --> 07:59.493\n接下來呢發生之後接下來就是等著這個新聞報導去就是應該是說你們在調查開罰之後然後實在調查報告批示完你們就存檔了嘛\n\n08:00.455 --> 08:27.566\n好存檔了因為封起來存檔了所以才會有我剛剛講的那個狀況那再來就是等著這個新聞報導去講這個不幸的悲劇啊好所以這個是一個二循環那就是說這些調查報告其實是可以去個資之後那就是說為什麼不能公務使用我是覺得很莫名其妙\n\n08:28.286 --> 08:55.280\n那其他的這個重大職災也是一樣針對特定這個暴露風險族群去做有效的預防宣導我相信像火災的爆炸然後墜落還有這個侷限空間都是一樣的預防原則就是要有效的定期的教育訓練那我相信沒有人是願意這個冒著生命危險去做這些工作啦\n\n08:55.720 --> 09:20.604\n只要他们能够知道说危险是什么在哪里怎么预防那别人是怎么发生意外的我想这些都是你们这个职灾调查报告的一个非常宝贵的资讯一定要揭露那我再请教就是职灾调查报告经过你们批准之后是不是就封存在自己内部欣赏了\n\n09:22.070 --> 09:50.708\n目前看起來好像是這樣公文報告職災調查報告基本上到最後整個公文的最後存檔之前其實我們還是會做剛剛委員關心的這個宣導那確實這個光看很多剛剛舉的那些例子光靠勞解是絕對不夠的我這樣問因為我比較關心那個職災調查報告的部分我沒有要問你說宣導什麼東西那現在就是\n\n09:52.949 --> 10:19.525\n剛剛就說你報告完基本上就內部封城你沒有就是完整的公告嗎沒有啊沒有完整的公布啊我們剛剛你如果忘記我可以再放一次給你看還要嗎第三次不用了吧那多久以後會把它key進資料庫對你們多久通常實在發生多久之後你們會把它key進資料庫\n\n10:20.711 --> 10:35.287\n跟微報告我們從這個案子開始啟動調查就進入到資訊系統了所以整個都在系統裡面好那我可以請你提供這個存檔的格式給本席嗎好那再來你們現在的電腦存檔存了多少筆資料跟微報告這個資料旁邊的人知道嗎\n\n10:41.448 --> 10:50.994\n我們這個系統非常龐大從民國93年都電運到現在所以你回去看一下目前提供給職災勞工的家屬大概有多少比例\n\n10:53.202 --> 11:19.096\n如果重大實災的話基本上檢查報告書會去掉很多比較這個應該其實大部分百分之八十有十的資訊都提供給家屬你確定都提供給家屬因為很多的家屬跟我們反映實際的案例就是說家屬還要跟你們申請也未必申請得到完整的資訊而且都非常依賴這個檢查機關或者法院來調卷\n\n11:20.896 --> 11:48.778\n很多這樣的比例不高嗎確實是現在目前是由家屬來跟我們索取資料的時候再提供我知道啊家屬一定會找你們要但是你們到底給多少嗎我想我只是點出這個那你如果覺得說家屬跟你們調你們就給完整的資訊你敢在這裡拍胸脯保證那可能拍令很快會下來你看看\n\n11:50.713 --> 12:06.243\n講話要很我說你答詢要很注意啦你回頭去看看啦家屬調閱到底拿到多少資訊再不然又有多少是勞師動眾讓檢調機關跟法院來調卷的你回去換算一下比例啊\n\n12:06.843 --> 12:26.628\n好那我希望是說透過這一次的植栽的這個教訓悲劇可以不要再發生那最重要的是你們的資料能不能有效的應用那這個事情能不能順利的進行關鍵在於植栽署能不能開放你們就是剛剛講的這些資料那你們什麼時候才可以opendata\n\n12:29.456 --> 12:38.798\n委員應該是有在委員會的提案那這個部分我們目前正在研議也在處理說怎麼樣讓這個職業障礙的一個資料盡量公開那你預估大概需要多久的時間研議啊不會研議一輩子嗎任期都有限啊委員給我們三個月的時間好不好\n\n12:49.980 --> 13:04.328\n我記得我質詢的要求我通常不會給人家到三個月那麼久應該最多都到兩個月而已是那就兩個月是謝謝好那我如果說今天一個月你行嗎喂那就兩個月謝謝\n\n13:05.589 --> 13:27.314\n好啦那就兩個月齁那你們好好研究希望兩個月後就有好消息所以我最後也希望說環境部跟這個經濟部各機關齁大家可以一起來協助治安署來掌握各個事業單位的這個高風險的這個設備跟機具然後大家一起為這個室內作業的有毒物質預防曝露一起盡一份心力好謝謝謝謝陳盈委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":13.933,"end":30.904,"text":"好 謝主席那那個因為我還是在這邊再次謝謝部長幫助台東所以我今天就不請您上台了首先我想先請我請那個勞動部信任職安署林署長"},{"start":43.619,"end":65.747,"text":"來麻煩林署長林副署長林玉堂林副署長是這樣子我想先請教您說是否贊成開放植栽報告我想了解一下您的態度"},{"start":71.013,"end":87.126,"text":"有關職業災害的資料的透明化跟公開揭露這個是我們紅部長一直在要我們這邊在做努力的方向目前其實在部裡面目前的一個有關職業災害的資訊的揭露已經有很多平台"},{"start":88.027,"end":114.958,"text":"但是呢並沒有把整個報告書整個送到這個平台上因為這是涉及到這個相關的一個規範那但是個案做成宣導資料或是災害發生的地點原因然後罰款金額等等我們在我們其他的公開平台都有放你說現在目前公告的是重大職災我們看一下你們公告的這個部分"},{"start":116.584,"end":143.738,"text":"最後最後一頁吧其實就是這麼簡單我那天已經有放過這一張了就是這個離災人數然後地點工程名稱就這樣那這個完全看不出對未來是沒有幫助的所以我接下來我再請教就是局限空間是不是室內作業"},{"start":148.508,"end":169.704,"text":"局限空間它基本上就是我們這個勞工在進出這個工作的那個場域它受限那是不是室內呢那就要看因情形而定如果說以這個建築物來講地下室裡面它就有可能會有一個所謂的這個需要一個人孔蓋打開以後人進去那這個就是局限空間是"},{"start":174.425,"end":197.288,"text":"我希望你可以不要被你們的原來的署長影響因為我的答案很簡單我的問題很簡單就是局限空間是不是室內作業是或者不是而已如果以我剛剛舉的例子就是室內作業沒有錯好那有含釋嗎"},{"start":201.28,"end":221.44,"text":"沒有特別就這個部分因為好像我們也沒有受到這樣的一個需要我們這邊有在問答因為我幫你統計了其實目前從以前到現在應該有八個那最近一個月連續發生了三件侷限空間作業時的災害包括了3月23號台中金屬表面處理業"},{"start":223.101,"end":241.429,"text":"還有清洗污水槽作業造成四人中毒昏迷兩人身體不適住院觀察還有4月10號桃園下水道罕管內從事纜線檢查作業一人被大水沖走了溺斃死亡4月13日斗六食品工廠兩個兄弟"},{"start":243.19,"end":262.65,"text":"從事這個伐機抽水作業吸入硫化氫中毒死亡總共造成36住院發生頻率有上升的情形那如何避免這個室內侷限空間的危害指安署應該要有積極的對策不曉得您認不認同我剛講的"},{"start":266.133,"end":291.792,"text":"那特別是在這個月的13日雲林縣斗六市這一家食品公司傳出了兩死公安意外那黃姓兄弟進行雨水回收的池閥機抽水時因為吸入了這個早期昏迷跌落回收池逆避那職安署的中區職安中心14日的時候有表示池水中含有高濃度的硫化氫"},{"start":292.532,"end":318.811,"text":"是這次植栽主要的原因喔那這個訊息是不是正確跟委員報告目前整個案子的詳細發生原因我們的植栽正在進行調查進行那這個是我們初步當天我們的勞檢員在案發後初步到現場初步了解的原因是不是那是不是食品公司都有類似的回收池有吧"},{"start":320.251,"end":335.379,"text":"那是不是回收池就一定會抽水那會抽水的話就容易造成這個硫化氫跑出來那這種有毒的物質事業單位跟這個勞工如果知道了你覺得他們還會冒險從事這樣有死亡死亡風險的作業嗎不會"},{"start":337.756,"end":359.163,"text":"好 那這樣反應都很正常那如果這樣的案例讓所有的回收池可能產生硫化氫的業者包括外包商知道別人發生了而他們可能也會發生難道他們就不會想要預防嗎應該是會吧他們也應該會去遵守安全措施吧"},{"start":360.023,"end":384.803,"text":"可是呢這樣的案例一直在發生喔所以本席才會一直請你們說要開放職災調查報告我已經講了很多次那我要再請教就是全國各種行業以及這個從事局限空間作業的勞工你們有掌握嗎你們可不可以透過這個調查或跨部會的合作來掌握可能發生的這個行職業跟勞工"},{"start":386.604,"end":414.446,"text":"是跟委員報告確實我們有跟國土署這邊內政部國土署這邊有在合作像包括下水道的這些資料等等我們有陸續在跟各部會有在做資料的一個互相的一個借解所以狀況如何你們行業別都完全有掌握嗎跟委員報告大概沒有辦法完全掌握而且還有臨時工的部分臨時工的部分你們有掌握嗎"},{"start":415.599,"end":432.538,"text":"這困難度非常高因為他有時候作業只有半天或兩個小時就離開了特別是我們很多族人又特別臨時工又特別多那這個部分所以要請你們再加把勁那你們可不可以根據這些慘痛的教訓去宣導"},{"start":433.917,"end":459.879,"text":"沒問題那為什麼就是說因為看來大部分的時候你們都是只會去勞動檢查然後出事了呢就調查開罰然後就沒了因為大家不知道發生的原因跟狀況也沒有辦法從中得到教訓所以大家不懂得預防所以同類型的這個災害就不斷的發生嘛"},{"start":461.3,"end":479.493,"text":"接下來呢發生之後接下來就是等著這個新聞報導去就是應該是說你們在調查開罰之後然後實在調查報告批示完你們就存檔了嘛"},{"start":480.455,"end":507.566,"text":"好 存檔了 因為封起來存檔了所以才會有我剛剛講的那個狀況那再來就是等著這個新聞報導去講這個不幸的悲劇啊好 所以這個是一個二循環那就是說這些調查報告其實是可以去個資之後那就是說為什麼不能公務使用我是覺得很莫名其妙"},{"start":508.286,"end":535.28,"text":"那其他的這個重大職災也是一樣針對特定這個暴露風險族群去做有效的預防宣導我相信像火災的爆炸然後墜落還有這個侷限空間都是一樣的預防原則就是要有效的定期的教育訓練那我相信沒有人是願意這個冒著生命危險去做這些工作啦"},{"start":535.72,"end":560.604,"text":"只要他们能够知道说危险是什么在哪里怎么预防那别人是怎么发生意外的我想这些都是你们这个职灾调查报告的一个非常宝贵的资讯一定要揭露那我再请教就是职灾调查报告经过你们批准之后是不是就封存在自己内部欣赏了"},{"start":562.07,"end":590.708,"text":"目前看起來好像是這樣公文報告 職災調查報告基本上到最後整個公文的最後存檔之前其實我們還是會做剛剛委員關心的這個宣導那確實這個光看 很多剛剛舉的那些例子光靠勞解是絕對不夠的我這樣問 因為我比較關心那個職災調查報告的部分我沒有要問你說宣導什麼東西那現在就是"},{"start":592.949,"end":619.525,"text":"剛剛就說你報告完基本上就內部封城你沒有就是完整的公告嗎沒有啊沒有完整的公布啊我們剛剛你如果忘記我可以再放一次給你看還要嗎第三次不用了吧那多久以後會把它key進資料庫對你們多久通常實在發生多久之後你們會把它key進資料庫"},{"start":620.711,"end":635.287,"text":"跟微報告我們從這個案子開始啟動調查就進入到資訊系統了所以整個都在系統裡面好那我可以請你提供這個存檔的格式給本席嗎好那再來你們現在的電腦存檔存了多少筆資料跟微報告這個資料旁邊的人知道嗎"},{"start":641.448,"end":650.994,"text":"我們這個系統非常龐大 從民國93年都電運到現在所以你回去看一下目前提供給職災勞工的家屬大概有多少比例"},{"start":653.202,"end":679.096,"text":"如果重大實災的話基本上檢查報告書會去掉很多比較這個應該其實大部分百分之八十有十的資訊都提供給家屬你確定都提供給家屬因為很多的家屬跟我們反映實際的案例就是說家屬還要跟你們申請也未必申請得到完整的資訊而且都非常依賴這個檢查機關或者法院來調卷"},{"start":680.896,"end":708.778,"text":"很多這樣的比例不高嗎確實是現在目前是由家屬來跟我們索取資料的時候再提供我知道啊家屬一定會找你們要但是你們到底給多少嗎我想我只是點出這個那你如果覺得說家屬跟你們調你們就給完整的資訊你敢在這裡拍胸脯保證那可能拍令很快會下來你看看"},{"start":710.713,"end":726.243,"text":"講話要很我說你答詢要很注意啦你回頭去看看啦家屬調閱到底拿到多少資訊再不然又有多少是勞師動眾讓檢調機關跟法院來調卷的你回去換算一下比例啊"},{"start":726.843,"end":746.628,"text":"好那我希望是說透過這一次的植栽的這個教訓悲劇可以不要再發生那最重要的是你們的資料能不能有效的應用那這個事情能不能順利的進行關鍵在於植栽署能不能開放你們就是剛剛講的這些資料那你們什麼時候才可以open data"},{"start":749.456,"end":758.798,"text":"委員應該是有在委員會的提案那這個部分我們目前正在研議也在處理說怎麼樣讓這個職業障礙的一個資料盡量公開那你預估大概需要多久的時間研議啊不會研議一輩子嗎任期都有限啊委員給我們三個月的時間好不好"},{"start":769.98,"end":784.328,"text":"我記得我質詢的要求我通常不會給人家到三個月那麼久應該最多都到兩個月而已是那就兩個月是謝謝好那我如果說今天一個月你行嗎喂那就兩個月謝謝"},{"start":785.589,"end":807.314,"text":"好啦那就兩個月齁那你們好好研究 希望兩個月後就有好消息所以我最後也希望說環境部跟這個經濟部各機關齁大家可以一起來協助治安署來掌握各個事業單位的這個高風險的這個設備跟機具然後大家一起為這個室內作業的有毒物質預防曝露一起盡一份心力好謝謝謝謝陳盈委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1042,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時1分）謝謝主席。我在這邊還是再一次謝謝部長幫助臺東，今天就不請您上臺了。首先，我想先請勞動部新任職安署林署長。"],["主席：麻煩林毓堂副署長。"],["陳委員瑩：我想先請教您，是否贊成開放職災報告？我想了解一下您的態度。"],["林副署長毓堂：謝謝委員垂詢。有關職業災害資料透明化跟公開揭露，是洪部長一直要我們努力的方向。目前本部有關職業災害的資訊揭露已經有很多平臺，但是並沒有把整個報告書送到平臺上，因為這個涉及到相關規範。但是將個案做成宣導資料或是災害發生的地點、原因及罰鍰金額等等，我們在其他的公開平臺都有放。"],["陳委員瑩：你說目前公告的是……"],["林副署長毓堂：重大職災。"],["陳委員瑩：我們看一下你們公告的部分，其實就是這麼簡單，我那天已經有放過這一張了，就是罹災人數，然後地點、工程名稱，就這樣，完全看不出原因，對未來是沒有幫助的。接下來我再請教，侷限空間是不是室內作業？"],["林副署長毓堂：侷限空間基本上就是勞工進出工作的那個場域受限，至於是不是室內，那就要因情形而定。如果以建築物來講，地下室裡面就有可能會有一個所謂的需要打開人孔蓋以後人進去的場域，這個就是侷限空間。"],["陳委員瑩：我希望你可以不要太被你們原來的署長影響，因為我的問題很簡單，就是侷限空間是不是室內作業？回答是或者不是而已。"],["林副署長毓堂：如果以我剛剛舉的例子，就是室內作業，沒有錯。"],["陳委員瑩：有函釋嗎？"],["林副署長毓堂：沒有特別就這個部分解釋，因為好像我們沒有收到需要我們回答的請求。"],["陳委員瑩：你回頭看看，因為我幫你統計了，其實從以前到現在，應該有8個。最近一個月連續發生了3件侷限空間作業災害，包括3月23號臺中金屬表面處理業，清洗污水槽作業造成4人中毒昏迷、兩人身體不適住院觀察；還有4月10號桃園下水道涵管內從事纜線檢查作業，1人被大水沖走、溺斃死亡；4月13日斗六食品工廠兩個兄弟從事筏基抽水作業，吸入硫化氫中毒死亡，總共造成3死6住院，發生頻率有上升的情形，如何避免侷限空間的危害，職安署應該要有積極的對策，您認不認同我剛剛講的？"],["林副署長毓堂：非常認同委員的意見。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。特別是在這個月的13日，雲林縣斗六市一家食品公司傳出兩死公安意外，黃姓兄弟進行雨水回收池的筏基抽水作業，因為吸入了沼氣昏迷，跌落回收池溺斃。職安署中區職安中心14日表示，池水中含有高濃度的硫化氫，是這次職災主要的原因。這個訊息是不是正確？"],["林副署長毓堂：目前整個案子的詳細發生原因，我們正在進行職災調查，這個是當天我們的勞檢員在案發後到現場初步了解的原因。"],["陳委員瑩：是不是食品公司都有類似的回收池？有吧？"],["林副署長毓堂：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員瑩：是不是回收池就一定會抽水？會抽水的話，就容易造成硫化氫跑出來，事業單位跟勞工如果知道有這種有毒物質，你覺得他們還會冒險從事這樣有死亡風險的作業嗎？"],["林副署長毓堂：不會。"],["陳委員瑩：好，這樣反應都很正常嘛！如果這樣的案例，讓所有回收池可能產生硫化氫的業者，包括外包商，知道別人發生了而他們可能也會發生，難道他們就不會想要預防嗎？應該是會吧？"],["林副署長毓堂：是。"],["陳委員瑩：他們也應該會去遵守這個安全措施吧？"],["林副署長毓堂：是。"],["陳委員瑩：可是這樣的案例一直在發生，所以本席才會一直請你們要開放職災調查報告，我已經講了很多次。我要再請教，全國各種行業及從事侷限空間作業的勞工，你們有掌握嗎？你們可不可以透過調查或跨部會的合作來掌握可能發生的行（職）業跟勞工？"],["林副署長毓堂：確實我們有跟內政部國土署在合作，包括下水道這些資料等等，我們有陸續跟各部會互相在做資料的介接。"],["陳委員瑩：所以狀況如何？你們都完全有掌握行業別嗎？"],["林副署長毓堂：大概沒有辦法完全掌握。"],["陳委員瑩：很複雜！"],["林副署長毓堂：對，很複雜。"],["陳委員瑩：而且還有臨時工的部分，你們有掌握嗎？"],["林副署長毓堂：這困難度非常高，因為他有時候作業只有半天或兩個小時就離開了，所以我們……"],["陳委員瑩：特別是我們很多族人當臨時工又特別多。"],["林副署長毓堂：是，了解。"],["陳委員瑩：這個部分要請你們再加把勁。你們可不可以根據這些慘痛的教訓去宣導？"],["林副署長毓堂：沒問題。"],["陳委員瑩：看來大部分的時候，你們都只會去勞動檢查，出事了就調查開罰，然後就沒了。因為大家不知道發生的原因跟狀況，就沒有辦法從中得到教訓，所以不懂得預防，以致於同類型的災害就不斷發生，發生之後，接下來就是等著新聞報導，應該是說你們在調查開罰之後，職災調查報告批示完就存檔了。因為封起來、存檔了，所以才會有我剛剛講的那個狀況。再來就是等著新聞報導這個不幸的悲劇，所以這是一個惡循環。這些調查報告其實可以去個資之後公開，為什麼不能公務使用？我是覺得很莫名其妙，其他的重大職災也是一樣。針對特定暴露風險族群去做有效的預防宣導，我相信像火災的爆炸，然後墜落，還有侷限空間都是一樣的預防原則，就是要有效、定期的教育訓練，我相信沒有人願意冒著生命危險去做這些工作，只要他們能夠知道危險是什麼、在哪裡、怎麼預防、別人是怎麼發生意外的，我想這些都是你們職災調查報告非常寶貴的資訊，一定要揭露。我再請教，職災調查報告經過你們批准之後，是不是就封存在自己內部欣賞了？目前看起來好像是這樣。"],["林副署長毓堂：跟委員報告，職災調查報告基本上整個公文到最後存檔之前，其實我們還是會做剛剛委員關心的宣導，確實看很多剛剛舉的例子，光靠勞檢是絕對不夠的……"],["陳委員瑩：我這樣問啦，因為我比較關心職災調查報告的部分，我沒有要問你宣導什麼東西，剛剛就是你報告完基本上就內部封存，你沒有完整的公告嘛！沒有啊！沒有完整的公布啊！"],["林副署長毓堂：是。"],["陳委員瑩：我們剛剛……你如果忘記，我可以再放一次給你看，還要嗎？第三次，不用了吧！"],["林副署長毓堂：跟委員報告……"],["陳委員瑩：多久以後會把它key進資料庫？通常職災發生多久之後，你們會把它key進資料庫？"],["林副署長毓堂：跟委員報告，我們從這個案子開始啟動調查就進入到資訊系統，所以整個都在系統裡面。"],["陳委員瑩：好，那我可以請你提供存檔的格式給本席嗎？"],["林副署長毓堂：是。"],["陳委員瑩：好，再來你們現在的電腦存檔存了多少筆資料？"],["林副署長毓堂：跟委員報告，這個資料非常……"],["陳委員瑩：旁邊的人知道嗎？"],["林副署長毓堂：我們這個系統非常龐大，從民國93年建立到現在。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你回去看一下。"],["林副署長毓堂：是。"],["陳委員瑩：好，目前提供給職災勞工的家屬大概有多少比例？"],["林副署長毓堂：如果重大職災的話，基本上檢查報告書會去掉很多比較……應該其實大部分百分之八、九十的資訊都提供給家屬。"],["陳委員瑩：你都去掉了？你確定都提供給家屬？"],["林副署長毓堂：家屬如果需要的話。"],["陳委員瑩：因為很多的家屬跟我們反映，實際的案例就是家屬還要跟你們申請，也未必申請得到完整的資訊，而且都非常倚賴檢察機關或者法院來調卷，這樣的比例不高嗎？"],["林副署長毓堂：確實現在目前是有家屬來跟我們索取資料的時候才提供。"],["陳委員瑩：我知道啊！家屬一定會找你們要，但是你們到底給多少？我想我只是點出這個。"],["林副署長毓堂：好。"],["陳委員瑩：你如果覺得家屬跟你們調，你們就給完整的資訊，你敢在這裡拍胸脯保證？可能派令很快會下來，你看看，講話要很……我說你答詢要很注意，你回頭去看看，家屬調閱到底拿到多少資訊，再不然又有多少是勞師動眾，讓檢調機關跟法院來調卷的？你回去換算一下比例。我希望透過這一次的職災的教訓，悲劇可以不要再發生，最重要的是，你們的資料能不能有效地應用，這個事情能不能順利地進行，關鍵在於職安署能不能開放剛剛講的這些資料，你們什麼時候才可以Open Data？"],["林副署長毓堂：委員應該是有在衛環委員會提案，這個部分我們目前正在研議，也在處理看怎麼樣讓職業災害的資料儘量公開。"],["陳委員瑩：對，那你預估大概需要多久的時間研議？不會研議一輩子吧！任期都有限。"],["林副署長毓堂：委員，給我們三個月時間好不好？"],["陳委員瑩：我記得我質詢的要求，我通常不會給人家到三個月那麼久，應該最多都到兩個月而已。"],["林副署長毓堂：是，那就兩個月，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我今天如果說一個月，你行嗎？"],["林副署長毓堂：委員，那就兩個月，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：好啦，那就兩個月，你們好好研議，希望兩個月後就有好消息。所以我最後也希望環境部跟經濟部各機關，大家可以一起協助職安署來掌握各個事業單位的高風險設備跟機具，大家為室內作業有毒物質預防暴露一起盡一份心力，謝謝。"],["林副署長毓堂：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員。","本日會議詢答全部結束，委員蘇清泉、徐欣瑩所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員蘇清泉書面質詢：","一、臺版CBAM制度設計之合理性","1.產品範圍與產業衝擊評估不足","今天報告提及臺版CBAM將針對「高碳洩漏風險產品」（如鋼鐵、水泥）進行試申報，但未明確界定「高碳洩漏」的判定標準（如碳排放強度閾值或進口依存度）。若範圍過廣，可能涵蓋非戰略性產業（如食品加工），反而增加中小企業行政成本；若範圍過窄，則無法有效防止碳洩漏。","2.邊境稅收分配機制不透明","報告強調臺版CBAM旨在保障本土產業競爭力，但未說明徵收之碳關稅用途（如專項用於綠能基建或納入一般財政）。此不透明性可能引發外界質疑政策工具變相成為新稅源，削弱社會支持度。","3.與國際規則之銜接漏洞","報告參考歐盟CBAM修訂草案（豁免小型進口商），但未提及臺灣如何處理與東南亞國家（如越南、印尼）之區域貿易協定（FTA）衝突。若臺版CBAM稅率高於FTA減免幅度，可能導致出口企業轉向其他低標準市場，違背政策初衷。","二、室內空氣品質管理政策之執行","1.自主管理標章之實效性存疑","今天報告顯示，截至2025年3月全台核發2,138張自主管理標章，但未公開標章持有場所之後續抽檢合格率。若標章僅依據單次檢測結果發放（「定期檢測報告」），缺乏動態監測機制，可能滋生「認證造假」風險。例如，幼兒園透過短期空氣清淨設備改善數值通過驗收，但日常通風管理仍不合格。","2.敏弱族群保護之落差","報告強調校園、醫療場所為優先管制對象，但未針對特殊族群（如孕婦、慢性病患者）制定差異化管理標準。例如，孕婦對甲醛敏感度為一般人的2倍，但現行TVOC標準（0.56 ppm）未區分場所使用特性，可能無法有效保護高危人群。","3.物聯網監測系統之技術瓶頸","報告提出「連續自動監測」作為改善方案，但未評估臺灣既有建築物之電力負載能力。例如，老舊校舍配電系統若無法負荷即時監測設備（如CO2傳感器需24小時運轉），可能導致系統建置流於形式，或增加場所營運成本。","請針對前述內容，作文字回復，以釐清政策作為。"],["委員徐欣瑩書面質詢：","【立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次會議】","校園空污防制改革","一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、外交部就「因應美國退出巴黎氣候協定並提出對等關稅，對國內產業淨零轉型造成衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢。","二、邀請環境部部長、勞動部、教育部、經濟部針對「國內校園、賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物管理及防制精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。","◆一、引言：從校園教室中的每一口呼吸談起","近日，環境部長彭啓明提出「空品政策白皮書」，預告成立全國空氣品質監測與預報中心，此舉雖令人期待，卻也凸顯一個長期被忽略的嚴重問題──我們的孩子，在教室中是否呼吸著乾淨的空氣？校園不該成為空污的死角，更不該成為兒童健康的風險來源。","◆「我們打造了一座座的校舍，卻忘了讓孩子們有權呼吸乾淨的空氣。」","台灣在空氣污染防制政策中，往往著重室外工業與交通排放，然而，室內空氣品質──尤其是校園環境中的空品監測與改善機制，卻長期遭到忽視。","兒童是對污染最敏感的族群，我們必須問：當空污來襲，政府是否有足夠的制度與資源，保護我們下一代的健康？","◆二、主體論述(一)：體制破碎，校園空品治理失能","【政策錯誤／制度荒謬】現行校園空氣污染管理，法規分屬多個部會（環境部、教育部、衛福部），卻缺乏協調統籌與責任整合：","●《室內空氣品質管理法》未將教育部列為主管校園空氣的機關；","●兒童及少年福利與權益保障法》也未將環境部納入主管機關；","●導致校園空品惡化時，缺乏明確權責與應變指導，僅能臨時停課、調整課表，無法系統應對。","【數據與案例分析】","●根據2013年《國民健康訪問調查》，未滿12歲兒童中有12.5%曾出現氣喘症狀。","●台灣研究顯示，兒童氣喘發作與PM2.5、PM10、NOx等空污物濃度高度相關。","●秋冬季節與石化工業區附近學校，為高風險區域。","◆「兒童不是縮小版的大人，不能用成人標準保護孩子的健康。」","【公共政策理論支持】","●Beck「風險社會」理論指出：部會分工過細導致「組織性的不負責任性」。","●當責任分散，每個部會只管一角，無人對全局負責。","【改革主張】","●修法明訂教育部與環境部為校園空品共同主管機關。","●建立跨部會「兒少空污防治小組」，定期評估政策與更新指標。","●增列學校空氣品質監測與改善的專項預算，並建立即時通報系統與應變機制。","◆三、主體論述(二)：制度缺口，兒童脆弱性未被看見","【政策錯誤／制度荒謬】","●台灣的環境風險評估多以「成人平均值」為基準，忽略兒童生理與代謝特性。","●兒童環境健康缺乏單獨政策與標準，現行應變流程僅以「學生」或「慢性病患者」作為模糊指標。","【數據與案例分析】","●WHO報告指出，全球每年1/4的五歲以下兒童死亡與環境因子有關。","●UNICEF UK揭露：英國1/3嬰兒呼吸不安全空氣，空污每年造成NHS超過4,000萬英鎊支出。","◆「兒童的呼吸，不能成為政策的盲點。」","◆「兒童的呼吸，不是成人縮小版，請看到兒童的脆弱性（vulnerability）。」","【公共政策理論支持】","●CRC第24條明定：「國家應採取適當措施，防止環境污染對兒童健康造成危害」。","●SDG目標明確指出：2030年實現「兒童納入所有政策」（CAP-2030）。","【改革主張】","●引進年齡分層風險標準，制定兒童特定空品指標與應變規範。","●參考韓國與美國加州作法，建立以兒童為核心的室內空氣品質標準與換氣參數。","●設置兒童環境健康政策研究中心，建立兒童空汙影響資料庫，提供制度化決策基礎。","◆四、主體論述(三)：預算缺乏，軟硬體建設落後","【政策錯誤／制度荒謬】","●台灣校園室內空品改善缺乏長期專項預算，現有措施多為短期應急，缺乏制度性長期改善規劃。","●僅在「空品惡化」時段調整課表、取消戶外課程，卻無法從源頭改善教室內的空品。","【數據與案例分析】","●韓國將校園空品納入《學校衛生法》，訂定比一般場所更嚴格標準，並提供改善預算。","（韓國近年之修法，特別考量幼童和學生之脆弱性，對校園訂定比一般場所更嚴格之監測標準，幼兒園之室內空品監測，則監測更多空氣污染物。另外，韓國將空氣污染治理納入《學校衛生法》，建立校園中空品監測與改善的法源基礎，將其常規化，對各級校園編列預算，改善軟硬體，保護兒少的呼吸健康權利。）","●聯合國兒童基金會（英國）UNICEF UK的報告也指出國家政策缺乏考量兒少脆弱性之空污政策，因此倡議國家納入考量。","●美國CEHN（兒童環境健康網絡」Children'sEnvironmental Health Network，簡稱CEHN）推動以兒童為中心的空污標準，並引導政府提高監測與換氣標準。","◆「我們不能讓學童的健康，輸在預算表上的一個刪節號。」","【公共政策理論支持】","●成本效益分析指出：空污導致的兒童健康損害，其社會成本遠高於校園改善支出。","【改革主張】","●編列專項「校園空品改善預算」，用於空氣清淨設備、換氣系統升級、綠建築標準推動。","●優先改善空污熱點區域學校，建立示範學校、績效回饋與公民參與監督機制。","◆五、結語：制度若不動，災難就會重演","◆「制度如果不動，災難就會重演。」","校園，是孩子們成長與學習的場所，不該是讓他們遭受健康威脅的溫床。","今天我們談的不只是空污，而是政府責任的斷裂，是對兒童基本權益的漠視，是體制「不作為」的證明。","我在這裡，嚴正要求環境部與教育部：","●立即啟動《室內空氣品質管理法》修法，明訂教育部為共同主管機關；","●訂定各級學校適用於學生的空氣品質標準與應變流程；","●建立跨部會合作平台，制定「兒少空污防治白皮書」，並確保預算到位、責任明確。","也請各位委員、媒體與社會共同關注：我們有責任為孩子打造一個安全、健康、能安心呼吸的學習空間。","◆「改革不是喊口號，而是捲起袖子把事情做好。」"],["主席：現在作以下決定：一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復，委員另有要求期限者從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，現在散會，謝謝大家。","散會（13時15分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","黃秀芳","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","張啓楷","楊曜","陳瑩","蘇清泉","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":427,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、外交部就「因應美國退出巴黎氣候協定並提出對等關稅，對國內\n產業淨零轉型造成衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、勞動部、教育部、經\n濟部針對「國內校園、賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物管理及防制精進作為」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00007"}}}