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\"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 643.186, \"end\": 643.206, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,395 --> 00:00:05,340\n謝謝主席麻煩彭部長\n\n2\n00:00:10,169 --> 00:00:36,630\n陳委員早部長剛剛我有仔細聽你的報告不過現在大概還相當完整不過還在很多還在研議階段那川普總統拋出的這個高額關稅雖然其實還有不定數還有變數但是因為大家都要嚴正以待因為我們也不知道台灣的這個籌碼跟我們談判能力到如何還要從所認定的那剛剛你自己也報告到就是說他宣布他等於再次宣布\n\n3\n00:00:37,090 --> 00:00:53,880\n他擔任第一次擔任總統他就宣布要退出巴黎協定嘛因為他對這個覺得不是那麼重要那這次他等於再次宣布要退出巴黎協定而且這個時間是一月啊就是他就職的時候所以我是認為在這個部分環境部應該要就提早就要有\n\n4\n00:00:54,841 --> 00:01:08,680\n這個準備當然關稅是後來的事情所以是這樣子就是說當然你剛剛也報告台灣推動這個淨零轉型的產業其實還是會有一些挑戰尤其特別是正在推動淨零轉型的這個關鍵出口的產業\n\n5\n00:01:10,322 --> 00:01:38,044\n那台灣企業本來他就要面對關稅這個碳費跟綠能轉型的內部成本那現在又要面對可能的出口美國是被課以額外的關稅它等於是一種雙重處罰的概念有一點doublepunishment的概念資源就被壓縮了那因為台北市市長蔣萬安說他準備好了那部長我不知道你會不會覺得你自己也準備好了\n\n6\n00:01:39,064 --> 00:02:03,735\n你覺得你準備好了嗎包委員其實川普總統在第一任總統的時候我就一直關注他的推特其實我對他的確是很努力的在知道川普總統的想法那他上任之後他有很多的作為包含他的這個內閣的閣員包含美國的新任的環保署署長我們的確環境部是有一個部長室的團隊每天都在看每天都在分析他可能對我們的影響我們的確是\n\n7\n00:02:04,835 --> 00:02:32,655\n真的是每天每天都在處理這個事情所以我必須說準備是一定要準備但是是不是能夠馬上應對的到幫助產業這個要一段時間但是我們積極的在做這個事情因為我個人他退出的時候因為在他一上任就幾百個那個行政命令他都已經簽署了所以我現在認為說環境部應該要是比其他的事情就是說應該有更早的這個準備那我為什麼會這樣問呢因為4月7號您出席一場活動你有提到四大對策\n\n8\n00:02:33,996 --> 00:02:53,691\n那你說美國關稅的風波衝擊遠遠超過歐盟的碳邊境調整機制就是你剛剛談的C邊所以目前對台灣業者來說你有期待說先存活下來會比這個淨零永續更重要這件事沒有人會否認因為這個是一個等於一個急來的一個海嘯\n\n9\n00:02:54,932 --> 00:03:18,769\n但是你也有說過說淨零目標不變,剛剛你的報告也有提到,那這個我們是非常支持的所以您覺得這個如果環境部真的可以如期開徵碳費嗎?就是剛剛你提到是一個有個數字是2026年5月嗎?就是如期開徵碳費嗎?就是今年1月1號開始定價了,然後明年5月31號要繳今年的費用\n\n10\n00:03:20,151 --> 00:03:32,069\n但是在這個川普透過高額關稅要強迫把製造業帶回美國這種期待之下那你有辦法覺得說環保政策也顧及了那麼廠商也能夠存活嗎\n\n11\n00:03:33,257 --> 00:04:00,079\n報告委員其實第一個是當然我們一開始32%的時候其實基本上這個衝擊遠高於西本而且大的非常的多所以我們其實是嚴正理待那當然啦現在的情況是一直還在滾動的在修正當中我們還不知道最後如果最後呢對於一些廠商而且每一個廠商影響的程度不一樣例如說現在可能比較辛苦的就是所謂的傳統製造業那的確呢我們這個部分也會跟經濟部一起來協助能夠來幫助傳統的產業\n\n12\n00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:27,215\n部長我再提醒您因為川普把CBAN當作一種關稅壁壘他的概念是這樣他是一個關稅障礙所以我現在談的就是碳關稅的壁壘那你現在在90天當中這個談判要到了90天的談判期間你有辦法堅持到最後嗎你有辦法說服國人跟行政院嗎就是如果美方要求我們取消所謂的\n\n13\n00:04:29,016 --> 00:04:49,495\n他認為的關稅的壁壘因為他認為CBAN是一個障礙你有把握嗎這個我們未來會仔細的看歐盟的CBAN的影響因為目前CBAN只有兩個國家有我認為他一定會跟歐盟提出這個要求這個歐盟啟動的CBAN所以他也會跟我們談這件事情\n\n14\n00:04:50,496 --> 00:05:07,071\n不過報告委員其實歐盟的CBAN也經歷了非常長期27到28個國家大概有十幾年的一個討論所以它在利潤的基礎還有它的可執行性是比歐盟完整的多那就是川普會講道理的意思囉是不是因為他打破了整個全球的遊戲規則\n\n15\n00:05:08,432 --> 00:05:34,850\n因為我們台灣未來要做生意不是只有美國歐洲也很重要其他各國也很重要所以我們必須用還是有這個社會責任的角度地球公民的責任來看這件事情我想我是希望說我們在談判努力談判當中你要知道這個就碰到他的痛點嘛有一些點包括補貼他不要嘛那個關稅壁壘他不要嘛那這個東西你要想辦法又要去談判又要去這個讓說服國人跟行政院可以支持嘛這個部分那這個\n\n16\n00:05:36,191 --> 00:06:04,548\n部長我現在想跟你談另外一個問題這個我的題目叫環保集團的五軌搬運法那我想請部長說明目前環境部輕運機器及時GPS的追蹤系統您滿意現在目前的整體運作跟查核嗎您對這套系統您熟悉嗎您滿意嗎包委員我們目前有在爭取行政院的我們下一期的預算行政院已經通過了但是預算還在爭取當中我們下一期整個完整的這種智慧圍籬會做得更好\n\n17\n00:06:05,509 --> 00:06:11,073\n為什麼我會這樣問因為前幾天我看到貴部有舉辦了一個很棒的露天記者會在桃園環保犯罪的現場你召開了一個打擊犯罪的成果發表就是說這個是很OK可是我想告訴你在桃園環保這個桃園現在發生一個案例我想跟你就叫土石方搬運的問題我等一下會放出一段影片這段影片我稍微說明一下\n\n18\n00:06:37,009 --> 00:07:02,576\n他沒有按規定把車內的這個土石方就放在這個堆置場他就繞過跑掉了繞過蓋個黑布就轉走了他等於就是就是虛孕故事一場就是欺騙嘛就我現在就是定格等一下大家看現在定格那個紅色冒出來那個中間那個紅色的他就是第一輛那我大家可以看前面兩輛就是說我現在開始播放影片讓部長看一下影片\n\n19\n00:07:15,134 --> 00:07:40,561\n部長,我不曉得你們看清楚,我可以再放一片,因為才12秒他轉進來,然後蓋到黑布,然後轉走了他作假,他根本沒有到在這個堆置場啊我想再放12秒,再放一次給大家看一下這個環保署的所有官員進來,出去的時候加了黑布跑掉了,根本沒有放在堆置場\n\n20\n00:07:42,568 --> 00:07:57,201\n這個幾年前我就有放過但不一樣的影片現在就是民眾這個檢舉的所以短短一分鐘這兩輛這卡車的上面土石放偷天換日神不知鬼不覺的就把它拿出去拿出去做什麼不是爛到就是去賣啊\n\n21\n00:07:58,462 --> 00:08:10,836\n去高額獲利啊那我想了解為什麼環境部你已經跟內政部已經攜手強化追蹤這個營建剩餘的土石方的管制那這個離譜是還是發生了這個現在我們正在進行當中我們近期的也拜訪了桃園還有幾個這種營建土石方整個自己境內自己\n\n22\n00:08:19,025 --> 00:08:30,781\n市內縣內無法完整處理的那我們進行跟他們討論我們未來會有一個很大的平台來做這個事那委員再給我們一點點時間因為我們在整合各個部會還有中央跟地方\n\n23\n00:08:34,305 --> 00:08:49,978\n其實報導者在2020就有告訴你說他從這個國土變異點找到台南屏東桃園都有發現這個爛到就是營建剩餘的土石方發生過土方業者他這個就是運輸的部分那土石方的那個資料堆置場這個是存放部分他們互相勾結\n\n24\n00:08:50,979 --> 00:08:55,603\n然後繞一圈就出廠再去爛道那一來規避GPS的監測那一來從中獲取暴利很重要前年8月雲林雲林的檢查跟環保局也都有查到合法的土資廠販賣連單繞廠偽造不實連單的違法行為那部長你去年3月就上路的營建及裝修廢棄物流向管理那其中電子連單的措施及工作\n\n25\n00:09:19,542 --> 00:09:45,456\n你是不是可以做到解決解除這個業者規避追蹤器偽造不實言單跟廢棄物被濫到的問題你的做法有沒有辦法解除這個問題啊好包委員這個是環境部跟內政部跨部會在合作那整個細節呢委員再給我們一點點時間因為我們談得差不多了一些具體的措施也即將會提出來那我們也跟地方全面的都在談合作所以再給我們一點時間我們完成之後會對您公布我們有一套做法\n\n26\n00:09:45,876 --> 00:10:11,449\n因為這個目前委員說的都是事實大概一年台灣有一千萬噸左右是流到這種爛道的沒有去處的地方不只爛道他後來如果再用在營建的話那這個品質堪慮啊對沒錯那部長這個其實這很多年了啦你現在如果說還是速度要快啦我也希望你後來會後可以給我一個時間表就是說我想了解因為我已經在前任部長的時候我就放過一次而且是舊的資料現在又有新的資料還繼續啊\n\n27\n00:10:13,429 --> 00:10:35,455\n這個未來希望委員可以多支持因為這個事情是台灣長久幾十年來沒有解決的事情還是要面對嘛不然我們就在教育大家如果你不處理我們等於在掩護他們的話我們等於告訴大家怎麼樣做壞事可以賺錢這個是我最痛恨的事如果我們不去處理犯罪的部分不復法的部分那等於說我這樣可以賺錢啊我這樣做法可以賺錢啊對不對合法的那個營業廠也是這樣做啊部長請多努力好謝謝委員謝謝\n\n28\n00:10:43,186 --> 00:10:43,206\n好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4395\t5340\t謝謝主席麻煩彭部長\n10169\t36630\t陳委員早部長剛剛我有仔細聽你的報告不過現在大概還相當完整不過還在很多還在研議階段那川普總統拋出的這個高額關稅雖然其實還有不定數還有變數但是因為大家都要嚴正以待因為我們也不知道台灣的這個籌碼跟我們談判能力到如何還要從所認定的那剛剛你自己也報告到就是說他宣布他等於再次宣布\n37090\t53880\t他擔任第一次擔任總統他就宣布要退出巴黎協定嘛因為他對這個覺得不是那麼重要那這次他等於再次宣布要退出巴黎協定而且這個時間是一月啊就是他就職的時候所以我是認為在這個部分環境部應該要就提早就要有\n54841\t68680\t這個準備當然關稅是後來的事情所以是這樣子就是說當然你剛剛也報告台灣推動這個淨零轉型的產業其實還是會有一些挑戰尤其特別是正在推動淨零轉型的這個關鍵出口的產業\n70322\t98044\t那台灣企業本來他就要面對關稅這個碳費跟綠能轉型的內部成本那現在又要面對可能的出口美國是被課以額外的關稅它等於是一種雙重處罰的概念有一點double punishment的概念資源就被壓縮了那因為台北市市長蔣萬安說他準備好了那部長我不知道你會不會覺得你自己也準備好了\n99064\t123735\t你覺得你準備好了嗎包委員其實川普總統在第一任總統的時候我就一直關注他的推特其實我對他的確是很努力的在知道川普總統的想法那他上任之後他有很多的作為包含他的這個內閣的閣員包含美國的新任的環保署署長我們的確環境部是有一個部長室的團隊每天都在看每天都在分析他可能對我們的影響我們的確是\n124835\t152655\t真的是每天每天都在處理這個事情所以我必須說準備是一定要準備但是是不是能夠馬上應對的到幫助產業這個要一段時間但是我們積極的在做這個事情因為我個人他退出的時候因為在他一上任就幾百個那個行政命令他都已經簽署了所以我現在認為說環境部應該要是比其他的事情就是說應該有更早的這個準備那我為什麼會這樣問呢因為4月7號您出席一場活動你有提到四大對策\n153996\t173691\t那你說美國關稅的風波衝擊遠遠超過歐盟的碳邊境調整機制就是你剛剛談的C邊所以目前對台灣業者來說你有期待說先存活下來會比這個淨零永續更重要這件事沒有人會否認因為這個是一個等於一個急來的一個海嘯\n174932\t198769\t但是你也有說過說淨零目標不變,剛剛你的報告也有提到,那這個我們是非常支持的所以您覺得這個如果環境部真的可以如期開徵碳費嗎?就是剛剛你提到是一個有個數字是2026年5月嗎?就是如期開徵碳費嗎?就是今年1月1號開始定價了,然後明年5月31號要繳今年的費用\n200151\t212069\t但是在這個川普透過高額關稅要強迫把製造業帶回美國這種期待之下那你有辦法覺得說環保政策也顧及了那麼廠商也能夠存活嗎\n213257\t240079\t報告委員其實第一個是當然我們一開始32%的時候其實基本上這個衝擊遠高於西本而且大的非常的多所以我們其實是嚴正理待那當然啦現在的情況是一直還在滾動的在修正當中我們還不知道最後如果最後呢對於一些廠商而且每一個廠商影響的程度不一樣例如說現在可能比較辛苦的就是所謂的傳統製造業那的確呢我們這個部分也會跟經濟部一起來協助能夠來幫助傳統的產業\n241400\t267215\t部長我再提醒您因為川普把CBAN當作一種關稅壁壘他的概念是這樣他是一個關稅障礙所以我現在談的就是碳關稅的壁壘那你現在在90天當中這個談判要到了90天的談判期間你有辦法堅持到最後嗎你有辦法說服國人跟行政院嗎就是如果美方要求我們取消所謂的\n269016\t289495\t他認為的關稅的壁壘因為他認為CBAN是一個障礙你有把握嗎這個我們未來會仔細的看歐盟的CBAN的影響因為目前CBAN只有兩個國家有我認為他一定會跟歐盟提出這個要求這個歐盟啟動的CBAN所以他也會跟我們談這件事情\n290496\t307071\t不過報告委員其實歐盟的CBAN也經歷了非常長期27到28個國家大概有十幾年的一個討論所以它在利潤的基礎還有它的可執行性是比歐盟完整的多那就是川普會講道理的意思囉是不是因為他打破了整個全球的遊戲規則\n308432\t334850\t因為我們台灣未來要做生意不是只有美國歐洲也很重要其他各國也很重要所以我們必須用還是有這個社會責任的角度地球公民的責任來看這件事情我想我是希望說我們在談判努力談判當中你要知道這個就碰到他的痛點嘛有一些點包括補貼他不要嘛那個關稅壁壘他不要嘛那這個東西你要想辦法又要去談判又要去這個讓說服國人跟行政院可以支持嘛這個部分那這個\n336191\t364548\t部長我現在想跟你談另外一個問題這個我的題目叫環保集團的五軌搬運法那我想請部長說明目前環境部輕運機器及時GPS的追蹤系統您滿意現在目前的整體運作跟查核嗎您對這套系統您熟悉嗎您滿意嗎包委員我們目前有在爭取行政院的我們下一期的預算行政院已經通過了但是預算還在爭取當中我們下一期整個完整的這種智慧圍籬會做得更好\n365509\t371073\t為什麼我會這樣問因為前幾天我看到貴部有舉辦了一個很棒的露天記者會在桃園環保犯罪的現場你召開了一個打擊犯罪的成果發表就是說這個是很OK可是我想告訴你在桃園環保這個桃園現在發生一個案例我想跟你就叫土石方搬運的問題我等一下會放出一段影片這段影片我稍微說明一下\n397009\t422576\t他沒有按規定把車內的這個土石方就放在這個堆置場他就繞過跑掉了繞過蓋個黑布就轉走了他等於就是就是虛孕故事一場就是欺騙嘛就我現在就是定格等一下大家看現在定格那個紅色冒出來那個中間那個紅色的他就是第一輛那我大家可以看前面兩輛就是說我現在開始播放影片讓部長看一下影片\n435134\t460561\t部長,我不曉得你們看清楚,我可以再放一片,因為才12秒他轉進來,然後蓋到黑布,然後轉走了他作假,他根本沒有到在這個堆置場啊我想再放12秒,再放一次給大家看一下這個環保署的所有官員進來,出去的時候加了黑布跑掉了,根本沒有放在堆置場\n462568\t477201\t這個幾年前我就有放過但不一樣的影片現在就是民眾這個檢舉的所以短短一分鐘這兩輛這卡車的上面土石放偷天換日神不知鬼不覺的就把它拿出去拿出去做什麼不是爛到就是去賣啊\n478462\t490836\t去高額獲利啊那我想了解為什麼環境部你已經跟內政部已經攜手強化追蹤這個營建剩餘的土石方的管制那這個離譜是還是發生了這個現在我們正在進行當中我們近期的也拜訪了桃園還有幾個這種營建土石方整個自己境內自己\n499025\t510781\t市內 縣內無法完整處理的那我們進行跟他們討論我們未來會有一個很大的平台來做這個事那委員再給我們一點點時間因為我們在整合各個部會還有中央跟地方\n514305\t529978\t其實報導者在2020就有告訴你說他從這個國土變異點找到台南屏東桃園都有發現這個爛到就是營建剩餘的土石方發生過土方業者他這個就是運輸的部分那土石方的那個資料堆置場這個是存放部分他們互相勾結\n530979\t535603\t然後繞一圈就出廠再去爛道那一來規避GPS的監測那一來從中獲取暴利很重要前年8月雲林雲林的檢查跟環保局也都有查到合法的土資廠販賣連單繞廠偽造不實連單的違法行為那部長你去年3月就上路的營建及裝修廢棄物流向管理那其中電子連單的措施及工作\n559542\t585456\t你是不是可以做到解決解除這個業者規避追蹤器偽造不實言單跟廢棄物被濫到的問題你的做法有沒有辦法解除這個問題啊好 包委員這個是環境部跟內政部跨部會在合作那整個細節呢委員再給我們一點點時間因為我們談得差不多了一些具體的措施也即將會提出來那我們也跟地方全面的都在談合作所以再給我們一點時間我們完成之後會對您公布我們有一套做法\n585876\t611449\t因為這個目前委員說的都是事實大概一年台灣有一千萬噸左右是流到這種爛道的沒有去處的地方不只爛道他後來如果再用在營建的話那這個品質堪慮啊對沒錯那部長這個其實這很多年了啦你現在如果說還是速度要快啦我也希望你後來會後可以給我一個時間表就是說我想了解因為我已經在前任部長的時候我就放過一次而且是舊的資料現在又有新的資料還繼續啊\n613429\t635455\t這個未來希望委員可以多支持因為這個事情是台灣長久幾十年來沒有解決的事情還是要面對嘛不然我們就在教育大家如果你不處理我們等於在掩護他們的話我們等於告訴大家怎麼樣做壞事可以賺錢這個是我最痛恨的事如果我們不去處理犯罪的部分不復法的部分那等於說我這樣可以賺錢啊我這樣做法可以賺錢啊對不對合法的那個營業廠也是這樣做啊部長請多努力好謝謝委員謝謝\n643186\t643206\t好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席麻煩彭部長\n陳委員早部長剛剛我有仔細聽你的報告不過現在大概還相當完整不過還在很多還在研議階段那川普總統拋出的這個高額關稅雖然其實還有不定數還有變數但是因為大家都要嚴正以待因為我們也不知道台灣的這個籌碼跟我們談判能力到如何還要從所認定的那剛剛你自己也報告到就是說他宣布他等於再次宣布\n他擔任第一次擔任總統他就宣布要退出巴黎協定嘛因為他對這個覺得不是那麼重要那這次他等於再次宣布要退出巴黎協定而且這個時間是一月啊就是他就職的時候所以我是認為在這個部分環境部應該要就提早就要有\n這個準備當然關稅是後來的事情所以是這樣子就是說當然你剛剛也報告台灣推動這個淨零轉型的產業其實還是會有一些挑戰尤其特別是正在推動淨零轉型的這個關鍵出口的產業\n那台灣企業本來他就要面對關稅這個碳費跟綠能轉型的內部成本那現在又要面對可能的出口美國是被課以額外的關稅它等於是一種雙重處罰的概念有一點double punishment的概念資源就被壓縮了那因為台北市市長蔣萬安說他準備好了那部長我不知道你會不會覺得你自己也準備好了\n你覺得你準備好了嗎包委員其實川普總統在第一任總統的時候我就一直關注他的推特其實我對他的確是很努力的在知道川普總統的想法那他上任之後他有很多的作為包含他的這個內閣的閣員包含美國的新任的環保署署長我們的確環境部是有一個部長室的團隊每天都在看每天都在分析他可能對我們的影響我們的確是\n真的是每天每天都在處理這個事情所以我必須說準備是一定要準備但是是不是能夠馬上應對的到幫助產業這個要一段時間但是我們積極的在做這個事情因為我個人他退出的時候因為在他一上任就幾百個那個行政命令他都已經簽署了所以我現在認為說環境部應該要是比其他的事情就是說應該有更早的這個準備那我為什麼會這樣問呢因為4月7號您出席一場活動你有提到四大對策\n那你說美國關稅的風波衝擊遠遠超過歐盟的碳邊境調整機制就是你剛剛談的C邊所以目前對台灣業者來說你有期待說先存活下來會比這個淨零永續更重要這件事沒有人會否認因為這個是一個等於一個急來的一個海嘯\n但是你也有說過說淨零目標不變,剛剛你的報告也有提到,那這個我們是非常支持的所以您覺得這個如果環境部真的可以如期開徵碳費嗎?就是剛剛你提到是一個有個數字是2026年5月嗎?就是如期開徵碳費嗎?就是今年1月1號開始定價了,然後明年5月31號要繳今年的費用\n但是在這個川普透過高額關稅要強迫把製造業帶回美國這種期待之下那你有辦法覺得說環保政策也顧及了那麼廠商也能夠存活嗎\n報告委員其實第一個是當然我們一開始32%的時候其實基本上這個衝擊遠高於西本而且大的非常的多所以我們其實是嚴正理待那當然啦現在的情況是一直還在滾動的在修正當中我們還不知道最後如果最後呢對於一些廠商而且每一個廠商影響的程度不一樣例如說現在可能比較辛苦的就是所謂的傳統製造業那的確呢我們這個部分也會跟經濟部一起來協助能夠來幫助傳統的產業\n部長我再提醒您因為川普把CBAN當作一種關稅壁壘他的概念是這樣他是一個關稅障礙所以我現在談的就是碳關稅的壁壘那你現在在90天當中這個談判要到了90天的談判期間你有辦法堅持到最後嗎你有辦法說服國人跟行政院嗎就是如果美方要求我們取消所謂的\n他認為的關稅的壁壘因為他認為CBAN是一個障礙你有把握嗎這個我們未來會仔細的看歐盟的CBAN的影響因為目前CBAN只有兩個國家有我認為他一定會跟歐盟提出這個要求這個歐盟啟動的CBAN所以他也會跟我們談這件事情\n不過報告委員其實歐盟的CBAN也經歷了非常長期27到28個國家大概有十幾年的一個討論所以它在利潤的基礎還有它的可執行性是比歐盟完整的多那就是川普會講道理的意思囉是不是因為他打破了整個全球的遊戲規則\n因為我們台灣未來要做生意不是只有美國歐洲也很重要其他各國也很重要所以我們必須用還是有這個社會責任的角度地球公民的責任來看這件事情我想我是希望說我們在談判努力談判當中你要知道這個就碰到他的痛點嘛有一些點包括補貼他不要嘛那個關稅壁壘他不要嘛那這個東西你要想辦法又要去談判又要去這個讓說服國人跟行政院可以支持嘛這個部分那這個\n部長我現在想跟你談另外一個問題這個我的題目叫環保集團的五軌搬運法那我想請部長說明目前環境部輕運機器及時GPS的追蹤系統您滿意現在目前的整體運作跟查核嗎您對這套系統您熟悉嗎您滿意嗎包委員我們目前有在爭取行政院的我們下一期的預算行政院已經通過了但是預算還在爭取當中我們下一期整個完整的這種智慧圍籬會做得更好\n為什麼我會這樣問因為前幾天我看到貴部有舉辦了一個很棒的露天記者會在桃園環保犯罪的現場你召開了一個打擊犯罪的成果發表就是說這個是很OK可是我想告訴你在桃園環保這個桃園現在發生一個案例我想跟你就叫土石方搬運的問題我等一下會放出一段影片這段影片我稍微說明一下\n他沒有按規定把車內的這個土石方就放在這個堆置場他就繞過跑掉了繞過蓋個黑布就轉走了他等於就是就是虛孕故事一場就是欺騙嘛就我現在就是定格等一下大家看現在定格那個紅色冒出來那個中間那個紅色的他就是第一輛那我大家可以看前面兩輛就是說我現在開始播放影片讓部長看一下影片\n部長,我不曉得你們看清楚,我可以再放一片,因為才12秒他轉進來,然後蓋到黑布,然後轉走了他作假,他根本沒有到在這個堆置場啊我想再放12秒,再放一次給大家看一下這個環保署的所有官員進來,出去的時候加了黑布跑掉了,根本沒有放在堆置場\n這個幾年前我就有放過但不一樣的影片現在就是民眾這個檢舉的所以短短一分鐘這兩輛這卡車的上面土石放偷天換日神不知鬼不覺的就把它拿出去拿出去做什麼不是爛到就是去賣啊\n去高額獲利啊那我想了解為什麼環境部你已經跟內政部已經攜手強化追蹤這個營建剩餘的土石方的管制那這個離譜是還是發生了這個現在我們正在進行當中我們近期的也拜訪了桃園還有幾個這種營建土石方整個自己境內自己\n市內 縣內無法完整處理的那我們進行跟他們討論我們未來會有一個很大的平台來做這個事那委員再給我們一點點時間因為我們在整合各個部會還有中央跟地方\n其實報導者在2020就有告訴你說他從這個國土變異點找到台南屏東桃園都有發現這個爛到就是營建剩餘的土石方發生過土方業者他這個就是運輸的部分那土石方的那個資料堆置場這個是存放部分他們互相勾結\n然後繞一圈就出廠再去爛道那一來規避GPS的監測那一來從中獲取暴利很重要前年8月雲林雲林的檢查跟環保局也都有查到合法的土資廠販賣連單繞廠偽造不實連單的違法行為那部長你去年3月就上路的營建及裝修廢棄物流向管理那其中電子連單的措施及工作\n你是不是可以做到解決解除這個業者規避追蹤器偽造不實言單跟廢棄物被濫到的問題你的做法有沒有辦法解除這個問題啊好 包委員這個是環境部跟內政部跨部會在合作那整個細節呢委員再給我們一點點時間因為我們談得差不多了一些具體的措施也即將會提出來那我們也跟地方全面的都在談合作所以再給我們一點時間我們完成之後會對您公布我們有一套做法\n因為這個目前委員說的都是事實大概一年台灣有一千萬噸左右是流到這種爛道的沒有去處的地方不只爛道他後來如果再用在營建的話那這個品質堪慮啊對沒錯那部長這個其實這很多年了啦你現在如果說還是速度要快啦我也希望你後來會後可以給我一個時間表就是說我想了解因為我已經在前任部長的時候我就放過一次而且是舊的資料現在又有新的資料還繼續啊\n這個未來希望委員可以多支持因為這個事情是台灣長久幾十年來沒有解決的事情還是要面對嘛不然我們就在教育大家如果你不處理我們等於在掩護他們的話我們等於告訴大家怎麼樣做壞事可以賺錢這個是我最痛恨的事如果我們不去處理犯罪的部分不復法的部分那等於說我這樣可以賺錢啊我這樣做法可以賺錢啊對不對合法的那個營業廠也是這樣做啊部長請多努力好謝謝委員謝謝\n好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.395 --> 00:05.340\n謝謝主席麻煩彭部長\n\n00:10.169 --> 00:36.630\n陳委員早部長剛剛我有仔細聽你的報告不過現在大概還相當完整不過還在很多還在研議階段那川普總統拋出的這個高額關稅雖然其實還有不定數還有變數但是因為大家都要嚴正以待因為我們也不知道台灣的這個籌碼跟我們談判能力到如何還要從所認定的那剛剛你自己也報告到就是說他宣布他等於再次宣布\n\n00:37.090 --> 00:53.880\n他擔任第一次擔任總統他就宣布要退出巴黎協定嘛因為他對這個覺得不是那麼重要那這次他等於再次宣布要退出巴黎協定而且這個時間是一月啊就是他就職的時候所以我是認為在這個部分環境部應該要就提早就要有\n\n00:54.841 --> 01:08.680\n這個準備當然關稅是後來的事情所以是這樣子就是說當然你剛剛也報告台灣推動這個淨零轉型的產業其實還是會有一些挑戰尤其特別是正在推動淨零轉型的這個關鍵出口的產業\n\n01:10.322 --> 01:38.044\n那台灣企業本來他就要面對關稅這個碳費跟綠能轉型的內部成本那現在又要面對可能的出口美國是被課以額外的關稅它等於是一種雙重處罰的概念有一點doublepunishment的概念資源就被壓縮了那因為台北市市長蔣萬安說他準備好了那部長我不知道你會不會覺得你自己也準備好了\n\n01:39.064 --> 02:03.735\n你覺得你準備好了嗎包委員其實川普總統在第一任總統的時候我就一直關注他的推特其實我對他的確是很努力的在知道川普總統的想法那他上任之後他有很多的作為包含他的這個內閣的閣員包含美國的新任的環保署署長我們的確環境部是有一個部長室的團隊每天都在看每天都在分析他可能對我們的影響我們的確是\n\n02:04.835 --> 02:32.655\n真的是每天每天都在處理這個事情所以我必須說準備是一定要準備但是是不是能夠馬上應對的到幫助產業這個要一段時間但是我們積極的在做這個事情因為我個人他退出的時候因為在他一上任就幾百個那個行政命令他都已經簽署了所以我現在認為說環境部應該要是比其他的事情就是說應該有更早的這個準備那我為什麼會這樣問呢因為4月7號您出席一場活動你有提到四大對策\n\n02:33.996 --> 02:53.691\n那你說美國關稅的風波衝擊遠遠超過歐盟的碳邊境調整機制就是你剛剛談的C邊所以目前對台灣業者來說你有期待說先存活下來會比這個淨零永續更重要這件事沒有人會否認因為這個是一個等於一個急來的一個海嘯\n\n02:54.932 --> 03:18.769\n但是你也有說過說淨零目標不變,剛剛你的報告也有提到,那這個我們是非常支持的所以您覺得這個如果環境部真的可以如期開徵碳費嗎?就是剛剛你提到是一個有個數字是2026年5月嗎?就是如期開徵碳費嗎?就是今年1月1號開始定價了,然後明年5月31號要繳今年的費用\n\n03:20.151 --> 03:32.069\n但是在這個川普透過高額關稅要強迫把製造業帶回美國這種期待之下那你有辦法覺得說環保政策也顧及了那麼廠商也能夠存活嗎\n\n03:33.257 --> 04:00.079\n報告委員其實第一個是當然我們一開始32%的時候其實基本上這個衝擊遠高於西本而且大的非常的多所以我們其實是嚴正理待那當然啦現在的情況是一直還在滾動的在修正當中我們還不知道最後如果最後呢對於一些廠商而且每一個廠商影響的程度不一樣例如說現在可能比較辛苦的就是所謂的傳統製造業那的確呢我們這個部分也會跟經濟部一起來協助能夠來幫助傳統的產業\n\n04:01.400 --> 04:27.215\n部長我再提醒您因為川普把CBAN當作一種關稅壁壘他的概念是這樣他是一個關稅障礙所以我現在談的就是碳關稅的壁壘那你現在在90天當中這個談判要到了90天的談判期間你有辦法堅持到最後嗎你有辦法說服國人跟行政院嗎就是如果美方要求我們取消所謂的\n\n04:29.016 --> 04:49.495\n他認為的關稅的壁壘因為他認為CBAN是一個障礙你有把握嗎這個我們未來會仔細的看歐盟的CBAN的影響因為目前CBAN只有兩個國家有我認為他一定會跟歐盟提出這個要求這個歐盟啟動的CBAN所以他也會跟我們談這件事情\n\n04:50.496 --> 05:07.071\n不過報告委員其實歐盟的CBAN也經歷了非常長期27到28個國家大概有十幾年的一個討論所以它在利潤的基礎還有它的可執行性是比歐盟完整的多那就是川普會講道理的意思囉是不是因為他打破了整個全球的遊戲規則\n\n05:08.432 --> 05:34.850\n因為我們台灣未來要做生意不是只有美國歐洲也很重要其他各國也很重要所以我們必須用還是有這個社會責任的角度地球公民的責任來看這件事情我想我是希望說我們在談判努力談判當中你要知道這個就碰到他的痛點嘛有一些點包括補貼他不要嘛那個關稅壁壘他不要嘛那這個東西你要想辦法又要去談判又要去這個讓說服國人跟行政院可以支持嘛這個部分那這個\n\n05:36.191 --> 06:04.548\n部長我現在想跟你談另外一個問題這個我的題目叫環保集團的五軌搬運法那我想請部長說明目前環境部輕運機器及時GPS的追蹤系統您滿意現在目前的整體運作跟查核嗎您對這套系統您熟悉嗎您滿意嗎包委員我們目前有在爭取行政院的我們下一期的預算行政院已經通過了但是預算還在爭取當中我們下一期整個完整的這種智慧圍籬會做得更好\n\n06:05.509 --> 06:11.073\n為什麼我會這樣問因為前幾天我看到貴部有舉辦了一個很棒的露天記者會在桃園環保犯罪的現場你召開了一個打擊犯罪的成果發表就是說這個是很OK可是我想告訴你在桃園環保這個桃園現在發生一個案例我想跟你就叫土石方搬運的問題我等一下會放出一段影片這段影片我稍微說明一下\n\n06:37.009 --> 07:02.576\n他沒有按規定把車內的這個土石方就放在這個堆置場他就繞過跑掉了繞過蓋個黑布就轉走了他等於就是就是虛孕故事一場就是欺騙嘛就我現在就是定格等一下大家看現在定格那個紅色冒出來那個中間那個紅色的他就是第一輛那我大家可以看前面兩輛就是說我現在開始播放影片讓部長看一下影片\n\n07:15.134 --> 07:40.561\n部長,我不曉得你們看清楚,我可以再放一片,因為才12秒他轉進來,然後蓋到黑布,然後轉走了他作假,他根本沒有到在這個堆置場啊我想再放12秒,再放一次給大家看一下這個環保署的所有官員進來,出去的時候加了黑布跑掉了,根本沒有放在堆置場\n\n07:42.568 --> 07:57.201\n這個幾年前我就有放過但不一樣的影片現在就是民眾這個檢舉的所以短短一分鐘這兩輛這卡車的上面土石放偷天換日神不知鬼不覺的就把它拿出去拿出去做什麼不是爛到就是去賣啊\n\n07:58.462 --> 08:10.836\n去高額獲利啊那我想了解為什麼環境部你已經跟內政部已經攜手強化追蹤這個營建剩餘的土石方的管制那這個離譜是還是發生了這個現在我們正在進行當中我們近期的也拜訪了桃園還有幾個這種營建土石方整個自己境內自己\n\n08:19.025 --> 08:30.781\n市內縣內無法完整處理的那我們進行跟他們討論我們未來會有一個很大的平台來做這個事那委員再給我們一點點時間因為我們在整合各個部會還有中央跟地方\n\n08:34.305 --> 08:49.978\n其實報導者在2020就有告訴你說他從這個國土變異點找到台南屏東桃園都有發現這個爛到就是營建剩餘的土石方發生過土方業者他這個就是運輸的部分那土石方的那個資料堆置場這個是存放部分他們互相勾結\n\n08:50.979 --> 08:55.603\n然後繞一圈就出廠再去爛道那一來規避GPS的監測那一來從中獲取暴利很重要前年8月雲林雲林的檢查跟環保局也都有查到合法的土資廠販賣連單繞廠偽造不實連單的違法行為那部長你去年3月就上路的營建及裝修廢棄物流向管理那其中電子連單的措施及工作\n\n09:19.542 --> 09:45.456\n你是不是可以做到解決解除這個業者規避追蹤器偽造不實言單跟廢棄物被濫到的問題你的做法有沒有辦法解除這個問題啊好包委員這個是環境部跟內政部跨部會在合作那整個細節呢委員再給我們一點點時間因為我們談得差不多了一些具體的措施也即將會提出來那我們也跟地方全面的都在談合作所以再給我們一點時間我們完成之後會對您公布我們有一套做法\n\n09:45.876 --> 10:11.449\n因為這個目前委員說的都是事實大概一年台灣有一千萬噸左右是流到這種爛道的沒有去處的地方不只爛道他後來如果再用在營建的話那這個品質堪慮啊對沒錯那部長這個其實這很多年了啦你現在如果說還是速度要快啦我也希望你後來會後可以給我一個時間表就是說我想了解因為我已經在前任部長的時候我就放過一次而且是舊的資料現在又有新的資料還繼續啊\n\n10:13.429 --> 10:35.455\n這個未來希望委員可以多支持因為這個事情是台灣長久幾十年來沒有解決的事情還是要面對嘛不然我們就在教育大家如果你不處理我們等於在掩護他們的話我們等於告訴大家怎麼樣做壞事可以賺錢這個是我最痛恨的事如果我們不去處理犯罪的部分不復法的部分那等於說我這樣可以賺錢啊我這樣做法可以賺錢啊對不對合法的那個營業廠也是這樣做啊部長請多努力好謝謝委員謝謝\n\n10:43.186 --> 10:43.206\n好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.395,"end":5.34,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩彭部長"},{"start":10.169,"end":36.63,"text":"陳委員早部長剛剛我有仔細聽你的報告不過現在大概還相當完整不過還在很多還在研議階段那川普總統拋出的這個高額關稅雖然其實還有不定數還有變數但是因為大家都要嚴正以待因為我們也不知道台灣的這個籌碼跟我們談判能力到如何還要從所認定的那剛剛你自己也報告到就是說他宣布他等於再次宣布"},{"start":37.09,"end":53.88,"text":"他擔任第一次擔任總統他就宣布要退出巴黎協定嘛因為他對這個覺得不是那麼重要那這次他等於再次宣布要退出巴黎協定而且這個時間是一月啊就是他就職的時候所以我是認為在這個部分環境部應該要就提早就要有"},{"start":54.841,"end":68.68,"text":"這個準備當然關稅是後來的事情所以是這樣子就是說當然你剛剛也報告台灣推動這個淨零轉型的產業其實還是會有一些挑戰尤其特別是正在推動淨零轉型的這個關鍵出口的產業"},{"start":70.322,"end":98.044,"text":"那台灣企業本來他就要面對關稅這個碳費跟綠能轉型的內部成本那現在又要面對可能的出口美國是被課以額外的關稅它等於是一種雙重處罰的概念有一點double punishment的概念資源就被壓縮了那因為台北市市長蔣萬安說他準備好了那部長我不知道你會不會覺得你自己也準備好了"},{"start":99.064,"end":123.735,"text":"你覺得你準備好了嗎包委員其實川普總統在第一任總統的時候我就一直關注他的推特其實我對他的確是很努力的在知道川普總統的想法那他上任之後他有很多的作為包含他的這個內閣的閣員包含美國的新任的環保署署長我們的確環境部是有一個部長室的團隊每天都在看每天都在分析他可能對我們的影響我們的確是"},{"start":124.835,"end":152.655,"text":"真的是每天每天都在處理這個事情所以我必須說準備是一定要準備但是是不是能夠馬上應對的到幫助產業這個要一段時間但是我們積極的在做這個事情因為我個人他退出的時候因為在他一上任就幾百個那個行政命令他都已經簽署了所以我現在認為說環境部應該要是比其他的事情就是說應該有更早的這個準備那我為什麼會這樣問呢因為4月7號您出席一場活動你有提到四大對策"},{"start":153.996,"end":173.691,"text":"那你說美國關稅的風波衝擊遠遠超過歐盟的碳邊境調整機制就是你剛剛談的C邊所以目前對台灣業者來說你有期待說先存活下來會比這個淨零永續更重要這件事沒有人會否認因為這個是一個等於一個急來的一個海嘯"},{"start":174.932,"end":198.769,"text":"但是你也有說過說淨零目標不變,剛剛你的報告也有提到,那這個我們是非常支持的所以您覺得這個如果環境部真的可以如期開徵碳費嗎?就是剛剛你提到是一個有個數字是2026年5月嗎?就是如期開徵碳費嗎?就是今年1月1號開始定價了,然後明年5月31號要繳今年的費用"},{"start":200.151,"end":212.069,"text":"但是在這個川普透過高額關稅要強迫把製造業帶回美國這種期待之下那你有辦法覺得說環保政策也顧及了那麼廠商也能夠存活嗎"},{"start":213.257,"end":240.079,"text":"報告委員其實第一個是當然我們一開始32%的時候其實基本上這個衝擊遠高於西本而且大的非常的多所以我們其實是嚴正理待那當然啦現在的情況是一直還在滾動的在修正當中我們還不知道最後如果最後呢對於一些廠商而且每一個廠商影響的程度不一樣例如說現在可能比較辛苦的就是所謂的傳統製造業那的確呢我們這個部分也會跟經濟部一起來協助能夠來幫助傳統的產業"},{"start":241.4,"end":267.215,"text":"部長我再提醒您因為川普把CBAN當作一種關稅壁壘他的概念是這樣他是一個關稅障礙所以我現在談的就是碳關稅的壁壘那你現在在90天當中這個談判要到了90天的談判期間你有辦法堅持到最後嗎你有辦法說服國人跟行政院嗎就是如果美方要求我們取消所謂的"},{"start":269.016,"end":289.495,"text":"他認為的關稅的壁壘因為他認為CBAN是一個障礙你有把握嗎這個我們未來會仔細的看歐盟的CBAN的影響因為目前CBAN只有兩個國家有我認為他一定會跟歐盟提出這個要求這個歐盟啟動的CBAN所以他也會跟我們談這件事情"},{"start":290.496,"end":307.071,"text":"不過報告委員其實歐盟的CBAN也經歷了非常長期27到28個國家大概有十幾年的一個討論所以它在利潤的基礎還有它的可執行性是比歐盟完整的多那就是川普會講道理的意思囉是不是因為他打破了整個全球的遊戲規則"},{"start":308.432,"end":334.85,"text":"因為我們台灣未來要做生意不是只有美國歐洲也很重要其他各國也很重要所以我們必須用還是有這個社會責任的角度地球公民的責任來看這件事情我想我是希望說我們在談判努力談判當中你要知道這個就碰到他的痛點嘛有一些點包括補貼他不要嘛那個關稅壁壘他不要嘛那這個東西你要想辦法又要去談判又要去這個讓說服國人跟行政院可以支持嘛這個部分那這個"},{"start":336.191,"end":364.548,"text":"部長我現在想跟你談另外一個問題這個我的題目叫環保集團的五軌搬運法那我想請部長說明目前環境部輕運機器及時GPS的追蹤系統您滿意現在目前的整體運作跟查核嗎您對這套系統您熟悉嗎您滿意嗎包委員我們目前有在爭取行政院的我們下一期的預算行政院已經通過了但是預算還在爭取當中我們下一期整個完整的這種智慧圍籬會做得更好"},{"start":365.509,"end":371.073,"text":"為什麼我會這樣問因為前幾天我看到貴部有舉辦了一個很棒的露天記者會在桃園環保犯罪的現場你召開了一個打擊犯罪的成果發表就是說這個是很OK可是我想告訴你在桃園環保這個桃園現在發生一個案例我想跟你就叫土石方搬運的問題我等一下會放出一段影片這段影片我稍微說明一下"},{"start":397.009,"end":422.576,"text":"他沒有按規定把車內的這個土石方就放在這個堆置場他就繞過跑掉了繞過蓋個黑布就轉走了他等於就是就是虛孕故事一場就是欺騙嘛就我現在就是定格等一下大家看現在定格那個紅色冒出來那個中間那個紅色的他就是第一輛那我大家可以看前面兩輛就是說我現在開始播放影片讓部長看一下影片"},{"start":435.134,"end":460.561,"text":"部長,我不曉得你們看清楚,我可以再放一片,因為才12秒他轉進來,然後蓋到黑布,然後轉走了他作假,他根本沒有到在這個堆置場啊我想再放12秒,再放一次給大家看一下這個環保署的所有官員進來,出去的時候加了黑布跑掉了,根本沒有放在堆置場"},{"start":462.568,"end":477.201,"text":"這個幾年前我就有放過但不一樣的影片現在就是民眾這個檢舉的所以短短一分鐘這兩輛這卡車的上面土石放偷天換日神不知鬼不覺的就把它拿出去拿出去做什麼不是爛到就是去賣啊"},{"start":478.462,"end":490.836,"text":"去高額獲利啊那我想了解為什麼環境部你已經跟內政部已經攜手強化追蹤這個營建剩餘的土石方的管制那這個離譜是還是發生了這個現在我們正在進行當中我們近期的也拜訪了桃園還有幾個這種營建土石方整個自己境內自己"},{"start":499.025,"end":510.781,"text":"市內 縣內無法完整處理的那我們進行跟他們討論我們未來會有一個很大的平台來做這個事那委員再給我們一點點時間因為我們在整合各個部會還有中央跟地方"},{"start":514.305,"end":529.978,"text":"其實報導者在2020就有告訴你說他從這個國土變異點找到台南屏東桃園都有發現這個爛到就是營建剩餘的土石方發生過土方業者他這個就是運輸的部分那土石方的那個資料堆置場這個是存放部分他們互相勾結"},{"start":530.979,"end":535.603,"text":"然後繞一圈就出廠再去爛道那一來規避GPS的監測那一來從中獲取暴利很重要前年8月雲林雲林的檢查跟環保局也都有查到合法的土資廠販賣連單繞廠偽造不實連單的違法行為那部長你去年3月就上路的營建及裝修廢棄物流向管理那其中電子連單的措施及工作"},{"start":559.542,"end":585.456,"text":"你是不是可以做到解決解除這個業者規避追蹤器偽造不實言單跟廢棄物被濫到的問題你的做法有沒有辦法解除這個問題啊好 包委員這個是環境部跟內政部跨部會在合作那整個細節呢委員再給我們一點點時間因為我們談得差不多了一些具體的措施也即將會提出來那我們也跟地方全面的都在談合作所以再給我們一點時間我們完成之後會對您公布我們有一套做法"},{"start":585.876,"end":611.449,"text":"因為這個目前委員說的都是事實大概一年台灣有一千萬噸左右是流到這種爛道的沒有去處的地方不只爛道他後來如果再用在營建的話那這個品質堪慮啊對沒錯那部長這個其實這很多年了啦你現在如果說還是速度要快啦我也希望你後來會後可以給我一個時間表就是說我想了解因為我已經在前任部長的時候我就放過一次而且是舊的資料現在又有新的資料還繼續啊"},{"start":613.429,"end":635.455,"text":"這個未來希望委員可以多支持因為這個事情是台灣長久幾十年來沒有解決的事情還是要面對嘛不然我們就在教育大家如果你不處理我們等於在掩護他們的話我們等於告訴大家怎麼樣做壞事可以賺錢這個是我最痛恨的事如果我們不去處理犯罪的部分不復法的部分那等於說我這樣可以賺錢啊我這樣做法可以賺錢啊對不對合法的那個營業廠也是這樣做啊部長請多努力好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":643.186,"end":643.206,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":269,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時16分）謝謝主席，麻煩彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，剛剛我有仔細聽你的報告，現在大概相當完整，不過很多還在研議階段。川普總統拋出的高額關稅雖然還有不定數及變數，但是大家都要嚴正以待，因為我們也不知道臺灣的籌碼跟我們的談判能力如何。剛剛你自己也報告到，從他第一次擔任總統時就宣布要退出巴黎協定，因為他覺得這個不是那麼重要，這次他等於再次宣布要退出巴黎協定，而且這個時間是1月，就是他就職的時候，所以我認為在這個部分環境部應該提早就要有所準備，當然關稅是後來的事情。再者，你剛剛也報告臺灣推動淨零轉型產業其實還是會有一些挑戰，尤其是正在推動淨零轉型的關鍵出口產業。臺灣企業本來就要面對碳費跟綠能轉型的內部成本，現在又要面對可能出口美國被課以額外的關稅，它等於是一種雙重處罰，有一點double punishment的概念，資源就被壓縮了。因為臺北市市長蔣萬安說他準備好了，部長，我不知道，你會不會覺得你自己也準備好了？你覺得你準備好了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實川普總統在擔任第一任總統的時候，我就一直關注他的Twitter，其實我的確是很努力想知道川普總統的想法，比如他上任之後有很多的作為，包含他的內閣閣員及美國新任的環保署署長，的確環境部部長室有一個團隊每天都在看，每天都在分析他可能對我們的影響，我們的確真的是每天、每天都在處理這個事情，所以我必須說準備是一定要準備，但是是否能夠馬上應對到並幫助產業，這需要一段時間，而我們積極的在做這個事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為他說要退出時，在他一上任就有幾百個行政命令，都已經簽署了，所以我認為對比其他的事情，環境部應該有更早的準備。我為什麼會這樣問？因為4月7號您出席一場活動有提到4大對策，您說美國關稅的風波衝擊遠遠超過歐盟碳邊境調整機制，就是你剛剛談的CBAM，所以目前對臺灣業者來說，你有提到先存活下來會比淨零永續更重要，這件事沒有人會否認，因為這等於是一個急來的海嘯，但是你有說過淨零目標不變，剛剛你的報告也有提到，這個我們是非常支持的，所以您覺得環境部真的可以如期開徵碳費嗎？剛剛你提到一個數字是在2026年5月，就是你們會如期開徵碳費嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：今年1月1號開始定價了，然後明年5月31號要繳今年的費用。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是在川普透過高額關稅要強迫把製造業帶回美國這種期待之下，你覺得有辦法環保政策顧及了，廠商也能夠存活嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個是當然一開始32%的時候，基本上這個衝擊遠高於CBAM，而且大非常多，所以我們其實是嚴陣以待。當然現在的情況是一直還在滾動修正當中，我們還不知道最後，如果最後對於一些廠商……而且每一個廠商影響的程度不一樣，例如現在可能比較辛苦的就是所謂的傳統製造業，的確我們在這個部分也會跟經濟部一起來協助，希望能夠幫助傳統產業。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我再提醒你，因為川普把CBAM當作一種關稅壁壘，他的概念是這樣，它是一個關稅障礙，所以我現在談的就是碳關稅的壁壘。那現在在90天當中的談判，90天的談判期間要到了，你有辦法堅持到最後嗎？你有辦法說服國人跟行政院嗎？就是如果美方要求我們取消它所認為的關稅壁壘，因為它認為CBAM是一個barrier、一個障礙，那你有把握嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們未來會仔細地看歐盟CBAM的影響，因為目前CBAM只有兩個國家有。"],["陳委員昭姿：還是看歐盟。我認為它一定會跟歐盟提出要求，因為是歐盟啟動CBAM，所以它也會跟我們談這件事情。"],["彭部長啓明：對，不過報告委員，其實歐盟的CBAM也經歷了非常長期，包含27到28個國家，大概有十幾年的討論，所以它在立論的基礎還有可執行性完整得多。"],["陳委員昭姿：那就川普會講道理的意思囉！是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：我們是希望……"],["陳委員昭姿：因為他打破了整個全球的遊戲規則。"],["彭部長啓明：對，因為臺灣未來要做生意不是只有美國，歐洲也很重要，其他各國也很重要，所以我們還是必須用社會責任的角度、地球公民的責任來看這件事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我是希望我們在努力談判當中，你要知道這個就碰到他的痛點嘛！有一些點，包括補貼，他不要嘛！關稅壁壘，他不要嘛！這個東西你要想辦法，要談判、又要說服國人跟行政院可以支持嘛！","部長，我現在想跟你談另外一個問題，我的題目叫環保集團的五鬼搬運法，我想請部長說明，目前環境部清運機具即時GPS的追蹤系統，您滿意現在的整體運作跟查核嗎？對這套系統，您熟悉嗎？您滿意嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我目前有在爭取行政院下一期的預算，行政院已經通過了，但是預算還在爭取當中，我們下一期整個完整的智慧圍籬會做得更好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，為什麼我會這樣問？因為前幾天，我看到貴部有舉辦了一個很棒的露天記者會，在桃園環保犯罪的現場，你召開了一個打擊犯罪的成果發表，這個是很OK。可是我想告訴你，桃園現在發生一個案例，想跟您就教土石方搬運的問題。我等一下會放出一段影片，這段影片我稍微說明一下，就是裡面會出現4部砂石車，它沒有按規定把車內的土石方放在堆置場，就繞過、跑掉了，繞過、蓋個黑布就轉走了，等於就是虛應故事一場，就是欺騙嘛！我現在就是定格，等一下大家看現在定格那個紅色冒出來、中間紅色的就是第一輛，大家可以看前面是兩輛，我現在開始播放影片讓部長看一下。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，我不知道你有沒有看清楚，我可以再放一遍，因為才12秒。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我知道……"],["陳委員昭姿：它轉進來……"],["彭部長啓明：對，我知道，這個叫繞單。"],["陳委員昭姿：對不對？然後蓋黑布，然後轉走了，它作假，根本沒有倒在這個堆置場，是不是？我想再放12秒，再放一次給環保署的所有官員看一下，進來、出去的時候加了黑布，跑掉了，根本沒有放在堆置場，這個幾年前我就有放過，但是不一樣的影片，現在是民眾檢舉的。短短1分鐘卡車上面的土石方偷天換日、神不知鬼不覺地就把它拿出去，拿出去做什麼？不是濫倒就是去賣啊！去高額獲利啊！那我想了解為什麼既然環境部已經跟內政部攜手強化追蹤營建剩餘的土石方管制，這個離譜事還是發生了？部長。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個現在我們正在進行當中，我們近期也拜訪了桃園還有幾個這種營建土石方，自己境內、自己市內、縣內無法完整處理的，我們進行跟他們討論，我們未來會有一個很大的平台來做這個事那委員再給我們一點點時間，因為我們在整合各個部會，還有中央跟地方……"],["陳委員昭姿：現在有合法的業者……部長，其實報導者在2020就有說從國土變異點找到臺南、屏東、桃園都有發現濫倒，就是營建剩餘的土石方發生過土方業者是運輸的部分，土石方的堆置場，則是存放的部分，他們互相勾結，然後繞一圈就出場再去濫倒，一來規避GPS的監測，二來從中獲取暴利。很重要，前年8月，雲林的警察跟環保局也都有查到合法的土資廠販賣聯單、繞場、偽造不實聯單的違法行為。部長，去年3月營建及裝修廢棄物流向管理就上路，其中電子單聯單的措施、稽核工作，是不是可以做到解除業者規避追蹤器、偽造不實聯單跟廢棄物被濫倒的問題？你的作法有沒有辦法解除這個問題？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個是環境部跟內政部跨部會在合作，整個細節請委員再給我們一點的時間，因為我們談得差不多了，一些具體的措施也即將會提出來，我們也跟地方全面都在談合作，所以再給我們一點時間，我們完成之後會對您公布，我們有一套作法。因為目前委員說的都是事實，大概一年臺灣有1,000萬噸左右是流到這種濫倒的、沒有去處的地方。"],["陳委員昭姿：不只濫倒，它後來如果再用在營建的話，那這個品質堪慮。"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，其實這很多年了，現在還是速度要快，我也希望你會後可以給我一個時間表，我想了解。因為我已經在前任部長的時候我就爆過一次而且是舊的資料，現在又有新的資料，還繼續啊！"],["彭部長啓明：對，未來希望委員可以多支持，因為這個事情是臺灣長久、幾十年來沒有解決的事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：還是要面對嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對，我知道。"],["陳委員昭姿：不然我們就再教育大家，如果你不處理，等於在掩護他們，也等於告訴大家怎麼樣做壞事可以賺錢，這是我最痛恨的事。如果我們不去處理犯罪的部分、不法的部分，等於這樣可以賺錢、這樣的做法可以賺錢，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：合法的營業場也是這樣做啊！部長請多努力。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請林月琴委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","黃秀芳","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","張啓楷","楊曜","陳瑩","蘇清泉","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":427,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、外交部就「因應美國退出巴黎氣候協定並提出對等關稅，對國內\n產業淨零轉型造成衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、勞動部、教育部、經\n濟部針對「國內校園、賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物管理及防制精進作為」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00007"}}}