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\"就是說因為包含了噪音或是空污等等國中小像空品維護區現在都是屬於一種政策型的我們在希望有建立這個制度但是還沒有入法來做這個事情因為明年2026年又是要交第三次國家報告的時候我不希望你們又是一個缺席的角色始終都沒有看到而且26號意見書已經都出來了氣候權本來就是孩子的基本的權利那你不能給他一個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 233.195, \"end\": 233.375, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 233.375, \"end\": 233.475, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 233.475, \"end\": 233.676, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 233.676, \"end\": 233.796, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"含\", \"start\": 233.796, \"end\": 233.896, \"score\": 0.774}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 233.896, \"end\": 234.076, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"噪\", \"start\": 234.076, \"end\": 234.296, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"音\", \"start\": 234.296, \"end\": 234.596, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 234.596, \"end\": 234.716, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 234.716, \"end\": 234.977, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"空\", \"start\": 234.977, \"end\": 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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,476 --> 00:00:04,217\n主席麻煩我們的環境部部長\n\n2\n00:00:09,987 --> 00:00:37,624\n部長我們今天還是要再來討論我們的兒少的環境部好像事實上是看不到兒少然後也聽不到學校的那個污染求救所以我們來看一下部長延續我3月18的一個質詢我想在這邊跟你確認一個共識問題孩子應該不是成人的縮影縮小版\n\n3\n00:00:39,226 --> 00:01:02,414\n他們器官還在發育而且他們的呼吸的速度事實上是我們成人的兩倍而且活動量大然後體重又輕所以對於空氣污染的吸收跟傷害比成人想像的還嚴重多了這是世界衛生組織歐盟的研究都有提出來那空污對於成長階段的兒童健康影響會更長期而且是不可逆的\n\n4\n00:01:02,895 --> 00:01:30,741\n部長想問你這事實上是上次我們就有一個基本公司對不對那既然認同的話我們就來看一個很大的問題就部長我上次質詢就提過室內空氣空瓶的空瓶法竟然沒有把高中以下的學校列入我認為這不是個別疏忽而是環境部整個政策都非常忽略而燒為什麼這樣提而且公約在2014年已經國內\n\n5\n00:01:32,259 --> 00:01:46,092\n自行法通過之後再一年的時間要提出優先檢視清單三年內要修法五年內要完全符合公約那意味著什麼意味著2020年的話\n\n6\n00:01:49,488 --> 00:02:11,323\n應該是要完全符合可是當然你會講說環境部事實上2023年才成立可是話再說回來前面還有環保署所以就想到底環境部做了什麼有沒有提出過兒童優先盤點的法規有沒有根據CRC這些提過任何的修法跟行政配套\n\n7\n00:02:12,827 --> 00:02:30,429\n報告委員其實第一個是我非常贊同委員對於這樣的看法那目前我自己看到我們過去對於委員說的CRC那個方式我們在空污法裡面有針對一些高中有一些學校在緊急應變的時候的處理的確有一些特別的法案的條例來出來但是在這個\n\n8\n00:02:31,170 --> 00:02:56,808\n整個這個就是屬於這種突發應變事故的時候的處理的確是有針對這個校園來做處理但是以整個空汙法裡面還沒有針對那我們也希望未來在修空汙法的時候能夠再特別再強化這一塊你知道這中間今天2017年2021年因為每五年會有國家報告幾乎都沒有看到你們的角色在那空汙又對兒童影響這麼大為什麼環境部沒有具體的作為\n\n9\n00:02:57,308 --> 00:03:21,829\n你剛剛講的事實上是單點的一些零散的法規所以我具體建議除了前次要求環境部主動納入兒少權法的主管機關以外因為現在兒少權法事實上你們是沒有角色的那請環境部依據公約全面啟動法規盤點而且研議在環境基本法名列兒童最佳利益的保障條款\n\n10\n00:03:23,035 --> 00:03:52,795\n因為這過去本來就應該按照兒權公益四大原則去盤點你所有法規不要變成兒童權益在環境部事實上是失蹤的所以也想問部長你這部分你願不願意啟動並提出時程好委員這個再給我們再研議一下因為第一個是我們針對緊急應變事故的時候有但是委員特別提到的比較長期特別是空污整個整體的危害特別弱勢的可能還有一帶進步的空間那這個部分我們會再來研議一下好不好\n\n11\n00:03:53,195 --> 00:04:18,795\n就是說因為包含了噪音或是空污等等國中小像空品維護區現在都是屬於一種政策型的我們在希望有建立這個制度但是還沒有入法來做這個事情因為明年2026年又是要交第三次國家報告的時候我不希望你們又是一個缺席的角色始終都沒有看到而且26號意見書已經都出來了氣候權本來就是孩子的基本的權利那你不能給他一個\n\n12\n00:04:19,884 --> 00:04:35,844\n連他在上學的時候都沒有辦法安心上學可是我們相對的來看其他國家那既然保障全民健康是環境部的責任所以我們不能忽略兒童我上次就提醒過需要的是更高標準的保護這是國際的公式\n\n13\n00:04:37,202 --> 00:05:05,072\n所以我們鄰近國家韓國這幾年對於兒童空屋的防治做得非常的完整是對於幼兒園小學比一般場所高標準可是你看我們連高中以下都沒有訂這些甚至他們在2019年修正了我們的學校保健法當然這是教育部的責任來明訂學校的校長要協助學校要空氣品質管理甚至中央要有補助去強制裝所謂空氣清淨機\n\n14\n00:05:06,512 --> 00:05:30,202\n還有擴大整個的範圍也就是監測範圍甚至學校周遭應該有流動的監測車輛這也是上次我提醒說否則每次都說只是臭味也沒有檢測到什麼樣的一個有害物質讓他們可是只要臭味的話事實上我們在那邊整天在那學習的話效果並不是這麼的好甚至政府還可以宣布社會災難來動用中央\n\n15\n00:05:32,343 --> 00:05:48,568\n預算的改善校園的設備這其他國家做的所以在這邊想問部長環境部是不是願意延續我剛才的要求同步參考韓國的經驗從法規預算行政命令這三個層次啟動全面的盤點跟修正\n\n16\n00:05:49,548 --> 00:06:09,785\n這個沒有問題不過我也跟委員說因為韓國的空污比我們糟很多啦我們PM2.5大概平均是12.8去年那韓國大概還有20左右所以韓國的確遇到重大甚至他們還有來自於中國大陸的沙塵暴所以其實他們的空污事件比我們多很多但是委員的意見非常的好那我們會列入一個參考來加入演繹\n\n17\n00:06:10,370 --> 00:06:31,406\n可是你說他很嚴重所以他啟動可是我們沒有他很嚴重我們一直完全也都沒有在做我知道我知道讓我覺得百思不解今天尤其是我們已經兒權公約國內法化還這麼不注重兒少的權益那學校呢為什麼這個通報通報為什麼這麼難這麼久部長所以想請你正視一個問題我們的學校老師是來教書的不是來幫你做那個\n\n18\n00:06:40,997 --> 00:07:07,616\n污染偵查員的從2014年的文府國小到現在2025年的獅子國中這些學校事後都被證實污染嚴重如果你講說台灣的沒有韓國這麼嚴重可是有些學校如果比韓國嚴重的話那你為什麼都沒有一些積極的處置呢可是學校和校長當初的通報卻都是沒有人理沒下文最常聽到的就是臭味不等於污染\n\n19\n00:07:08,317 --> 00:07:18,668\n請再觀察看看啊結果就是老師自己記錄校長自己陳情奔走這樣是對的嗎為什麼老師要是在做環境單位的工作做你環境部\n\n20\n00:07:19,482 --> 00:07:45,703\n我們的環保局的一個工作那這些案例從西樹林獅子國中通報多年無效甚至很多老師都想放棄了部長我認為這不是一個個案是制度的問題所以部長我想問的更直接一點現在學校校園空氣品質警示防護計畫要求學校通報當地環保局跟公害專線通報後環保單位有主動\n\n21\n00:07:46,824 --> 00:08:14,066\n在做追蹤列管嗎有我們是主要是環管署他們是屬於稽查的單位他們會去經理部長要回答之前要先看獅子國中是他們2019陸續回應最近是有媒體踢爆之後你們才說而且處理到現在2025年你如果講說有那另外一個環境部到底在這個流程扮演什麼角色你說有的話那你們平常真的在對那個環保局做了什麼事情\n\n22\n00:08:14,489 --> 00:08:27,361\n最主要是針對一些例如說工業區特殊性的工業區或是重大污染源旁邊其實大概有100多個學校我們都有重點的來協助來輔導為什麼人家獅子國中2019年到現在2025年幾年了因為它那個是有一個曆青的工廠它是一個月工作兩天所以在那兩天當中所以我們在等那兩天我上次也提過因為\n\n23\n00:08:38,251 --> 00:09:02,046\n最後就變成學生要往外移弱勢的孩子根本沒有條件這件事情應該要去處理所以部長也要問的是學校通報那個污染後常常只有稽查就沒有後續稽查完就結束了所以老師學生還得自己蒐證上街頭才能換來處理那你環境部在哪\n\n24\n00:09:03,106 --> 00:09:25,733\n所以部長如果罪證確鑿的話這樣子是不是還要再走花好多年做體制外的申訴你認為現行制度真的有效嗎如果你剛剛講說環保局有在處理那為什麼我剛剛講私子國中都是一直2019年到2025年所以如果有效的話為什麼這些學校真的要自己苦撐自力救濟而且一定要\n\n25\n00:09:26,073 --> 00:09:54,338\n透過報導者來報導或者是新聞媒體來揭露所以請問一下環境部現在有沒有一套針對校園空屋的SOP是整個通報系統我們目前是針對我們其實在之前就有發布公司場所對學校影響的會加重裁罰不過委員剛剛特別提到的這個有一些敏感高敏感的大概100多間學校我們會再來想辦法說是不是有一些更好的措施\n\n26\n00:09:54,818 --> 00:10:23,518\n因為過去其實我也是常常會從這個媒體上面看到這樣的一個訊息所以未來我們會跟教育部來研議如果遇到空污事件或公關事件通報程序能不能再更好一點特別是所謂的弱勢在這種所謂的工廠周邊的學校所以我們會加強的首先會來處理所以部長也不是像你報告當中你今天提出來書面報告裡面第六頁講說環境部就去編寫一個校園室內空氣品質自主管理維護指引手冊因為\n\n27\n00:10:24,278 --> 00:10:53,223\n外部的空氣飄進來的話你叫我怎麼自主管理所以我認為環保單位是不是應該要主動列管追蹤公開處理狀況及再申訴的機制不是把問題又丟回去給學校讓校長老師疲於奔命這個你們認不認同認同那所以你願不願意重新檢視我們環境部在這個流程的角色是不是主動扛起更多的責任邀請相關部會一起規劃\n\n28\n00:10:54,923 --> 00:11:13,082\n好可以再來大家也要再提一次環境部還有個缺席就是我要追問關於工業區周邊的學校的防護在2018年6年前教育部就的防護校園防護計畫早就建議環境部要協助盤點工業區3公里範圍的中小學名單加強\n\n29\n00:11:15,024 --> 00:11:41,017\n監測稽查主動協助學校通報啊協助學校而不是學校自己來跟你們通報是你要協助學校通報但我們看到的是確實要老師申訴最近媒體通報環境部才會動所以部長這個防護計畫的盤點到底執行到哪有沒有固定監測尤其我現在上面列的那幾個學校協調更新甚至還是只上彈兵或者是對教育部已讀不回\n\n30\n00:11:42,931 --> 00:12:04,267\n這個委員這個部分我們是有列管但是這個程序上能不能更好一點或更直接解決這個問題我會在一點時間我再來瞭解好不好好那就麻煩環境部是不是第一個先把兒童納入環境部的政策核心依兒權公約提出環境部優先盤點清單啟動修法跟凝聚政策因為明年\n\n31\n00:12:05,607 --> 00:12:27,315\n2026年本來就是第三次國家報告要交你們不要再做缺席第二個是建立學校空污通報跟協助機制來強化環保單位的一個角色在所以SOP要訂出來再申訴機制那再加強工業區的周邊的中小學的盤點然後空氣品質的監控的一個項目來針對我們高污染熱區\n\n32\n00:12:29,130 --> 00:12:47,912\n建立長期的監控跟資源的協助不要像你這邊如果是不是可以請孩子跟你們許願你的系列裡面活動裡面第七頁想說好空氣許願池我覺得應該請俄哨來跟部長來許願希望能夠真的是落實以上謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2476\t4217\t主席麻煩我們的環境部部長\n9987\t37624\t部長我們今天還是要再來討論我們的兒少的環境部好像事實上是看不到兒少然後也聽不到學校的那個污染求救所以我們來看一下 部長延續我3月18的一個質詢我想在這邊跟你確認一個共識問題孩子應該不是成人的縮影縮小版\n39226\t62414\t他們器官還在發育而且他們的呼吸的速度事實上是我們成人的兩倍而且活動量大然後體重又輕所以對於空氣污染的吸收跟傷害比成人想像的還嚴重多了這是世界衛生組織歐盟的研究都有提出來那空污對於成長階段的兒童健康影響會更長期而且是不可逆的\n62895\t90741\t部長想問你這事實上是上次我們就有一個基本公司對不對那既然認同的話我們就來看一個很大的問題就部長我上次質詢就提過室內空氣空瓶的空瓶法竟然沒有把高中以下的學校列入我認為這不是個別疏忽而是環境部整個政策都非常忽略而燒為什麼這樣提而且公約在2014年已經國內\n92259\t106092\t自行法通過之後再一年的時間要提出優先檢視清單三年內要修法五年內要完全符合公約那意味著什麼意味著2020年的話\n109488\t131323\t應該是要完全符合可是當然你會講說環境部事實上2023年才成立可是話再說回來前面還有環保署所以就想到底環境部做了什麼有沒有提出過兒童優先盤點的法規有沒有根據CRC這些提過任何的修法跟行政配套\n132827\t150429\t報告委員其實第一個是我非常贊同委員對於這樣的看法那目前我自己看到我們過去對於委員說的CRC那個方式我們在空污法裡面有針對一些高中有一些學校在緊急應變的時候的處理的確有一些特別的法案的條例來出來但是在這個\n151170\t176808\t整個這個就是屬於這種突發應變事故的時候的處理的確是有針對這個校園來做處理但是以整個空汙法裡面還沒有針對那我們也希望未來在修空汙法的時候能夠再特別再強化這一塊你知道這中間今天2017年 2021年因為每五年會有國家報告幾乎都沒有看到你們的角色在那空汙又對兒童影響這麼大為什麼環境部沒有具體的作為\n177308\t201829\t你剛剛講的事實上是單點的一些零散的法規所以我具體建議除了前次要求環境部主動納入兒少權法的主管機關以外因為現在兒少權法事實上你們是沒有角色的那請環境部依據公約全面啟動法規盤點而且研議在環境基本法名列兒童最佳利益的保障條款\n203035\t232795\t因為這過去本來就應該按照兒權公益四大原則去盤點你所有法規不要變成兒童權益在環境部事實上是失蹤的所以也想問部長你這部分你願不願意啟動並提出時程好委員這個再給我們再研議一下因為第一個是我們針對緊急應變事故的時候有但是委員特別提到的比較長期特別是空污整個整體的危害特別弱勢的可能還有一帶進步的空間那這個部分我們會再來研議一下好不好\n233195\t258795\t就是說因為包含了噪音或是空污等等國中小像空品維護區現在都是屬於一種政策型的我們在希望有建立這個制度但是還沒有入法來做這個事情因為明年2026年又是要交第三次國家報告的時候我不希望你們又是一個缺席的角色始終都沒有看到而且26號意見書已經都出來了氣候權本來就是孩子的基本的權利那你不能給他一個\n259884\t275844\t連他在上學的時候都沒有辦法安心上學可是我們相對的來看其他國家那既然保障全民健康是環境部的責任所以我們不能忽略兒童我上次就提醒過需要的是更高標準的保護這是國際的公式\n277202\t305072\t所以我們鄰近國家韓國這幾年對於兒童空屋的防治做得非常的完整是對於幼兒園小學比一般場所高標準可是你看我們連高中以下都沒有訂這些甚至他們在2019年修正了我們的學校保健法當然這是教育部的責任來明訂學校的校長要協助學校要空氣品質管理甚至中央要有補助去強制裝所謂空氣清淨機\n306512\t330202\t還有擴大整個的範圍也就是監測範圍甚至學校周遭應該有流動的監測車輛這也是上次我提醒說否則每次都說只是臭味也沒有檢測到什麼樣的一個有害物質讓他們可是只要臭味的話事實上我們在那邊整天在那學習的話效果並不是這麼的好甚至政府還可以宣布社會災難來動用中央\n332343\t348568\t預算的改善校園的設備這其他國家做的所以在這邊想問部長環境部是不是願意延續我剛才的要求同步參考韓國的經驗從法規預算行政命令這三個層次啟動全面的盤點跟修正\n349548\t369785\t這個沒有問題不過我也跟委員說因為韓國的空污比我們糟很多啦我們PM2.5大概平均是12.8去年那韓國大概還有20左右所以韓國的確遇到重大甚至他們還有來自於中國大陸的沙塵暴所以其實他們的空污事件比我們多很多但是委員的意見非常的好那我們會列入一個參考來加入演繹\n370370\t391406\t可是你說他很嚴重所以他啟動可是我們沒有他很嚴重我們一直完全也都沒有在做我知道我知道 讓我覺得百思不解今天尤其是我們已經兒權公約國內法化還這麼不注重兒少的權益那學校呢為什麼這個通報通報為什麼這麼難這麼久部長所以想請你正視一個問題我們的學校老師是來教書的不是來幫你做那個\n400997\t427616\t污染偵查員的從2014年的文府國小到現在2025年的獅子國中這些學校事後都被證實污染嚴重如果你講說台灣的沒有韓國這麼嚴重可是有些學校如果比韓國嚴重的話那你為什麼都沒有一些積極的處置呢可是學校和校長當初的通報卻都是沒有人理沒下文最常聽到的就是臭味不等於污染\n428317\t438668\t請再觀察看看啊結果就是老師自己記錄校長自己陳情奔走這樣是對的嗎為什麼老師要是在做環境單位的工作做你環境部\n439482\t465703\t我們的環保局的一個工作那這些案例從西樹林獅子國中通報多年無效甚至很多老師都想放棄了部長我認為這不是一個個案是制度的問題所以部長我想問的更直接一點現在學校校園空氣品質警示防護計畫要求學校通報當地環保局跟公害專線通報後環保單位有主動\n466824\t494066\t在做追蹤列管嗎有我們是主要是環管署他們是屬於稽查的單位他們會去經理部長要回答之前要先看獅子國中是他們2019陸續回應最近是有媒體踢爆之後你們才說而且處理到現在2025年你如果講說有那另外一個環境部到底在這個流程扮演什麼角色你說有的話那你們平常真的在對那個環保局做了什麼事情\n494489\t507361\t最主要是針對一些例如說工業區特殊性的工業區或是重大污染源旁邊其實大概有100多個學校我們都有重點的來協助來輔導為什麼人家獅子國中2019年到現在2025年幾年了因為它那個是有一個曆青的工廠它是一個月工作兩天所以在那兩天當中所以我們在等那兩天我上次也提過因為\n518251\t542046\t最後就變成學生要往外移 弱勢的孩子根本沒有條件這件事情應該要去處理所以部長也要問的是學校通報那個污染後常常只有稽查就沒有後續稽查完就結束了所以老師學生還得自己蒐證上街頭才能換來處理那你環境部在哪\n543106\t565733\t所以部長如果罪證確鑿的話這樣子是不是還要再走花好多年做體制外的申訴你認為現行制度真的有效嗎如果你剛剛講說環保局有在處理那為什麼我剛剛講私子國中都是一直2019年到2025年所以如果有效的話為什麼這些學校真的要自己苦撐自力救濟而且一定要\n566073\t594338\t透過報導者來報導或者是新聞媒體來揭露所以請問一下環境部現在有沒有一套針對校園空屋的SOP是整個通報系統我們目前是針對我們其實在之前就有發布公司場所對學校影響的會加重裁罰不過委員剛剛特別提到的這個有一些敏感高敏感的大概100多間學校我們會再來想辦法說是不是有一些更好的措施\n594818\t623518\t因為過去其實我也是常常會從這個媒體上面看到這樣的一個訊息所以未來我們會跟教育部來研議如果遇到空污事件或公關事件通報程序能不能再更好一點特別是所謂的弱勢在這種所謂的工廠周邊的學校所以我們會加強的首先會來處理所以部長也不是像你報告當中你今天提出來書面報告裡面第六頁講說環境部就去編寫一個校園室內空氣品質自主管理維護指引手冊因為\n624278\t653223\t外部的空氣飄進來的話你叫我怎麼自主管理所以我認為環保單位是不是應該要主動列管追蹤公開處理狀況及再申訴的機制不是把問題又丟回去給學校讓校長老師疲於奔命這個你們認不認同認同那所以你願不願意重新檢視我們環境部在這個流程的角色是不是主動扛起更多的責任邀請相關部會一起規劃\n654923\t673082\t好可以再來大家也要再提一次環境部還有個缺席就是我要追問關於工業區周邊的學校的防護在2018年6年前教育部就的防護校園防護計畫早就建議環境部要協助盤點工業區3公里範圍的中小學名單加強\n675024\t701017\t監測 稽查 主動協助學校通報啊協助學校 而不是學校自己來跟你們通報是你要協助學校通報但我們看到的是確實要老師申訴最近媒體通報環境部才會動所以部長這個防護計畫的盤點到底執行到哪有沒有固定監測 尤其我現在上面列的那幾個學校協調更新 甚至還是只上彈兵或者是對教育部已讀不回\n702931\t724267\t這個委員這個部分我們是有列管但是這個程序上能不能更好一點或更直接解決這個問題我會在一點時間我再來瞭解好不好好那就麻煩環境部是不是第一個先把兒童納入環境部的政策核心依兒權公約提出環境部優先盤點清單啟動修法跟凝聚政策因為明年\n725607\t747315\t2026年本來就是第三次國家報告要交你們不要再做缺席第二個是建立學校空污通報跟協助機制來強化環保單位的一個角色在所以SOP要訂出來再申訴機制那再加強工業區的周邊的中小學的盤點然後空氣品質的監控的一個項目來針對我們高污染熱區\n749130\t767912\t建立長期的監控跟資源的協助不要像你這邊如果是不是可以請孩子跟你們許願你的系列裡面活動裡面第七頁想說好空氣許願池我覺得應該請俄哨來跟部長來許願希望能夠真的是落實以上謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝\n","txt":"主席麻煩我們的環境部部長\n部長我們今天還是要再來討論我們的兒少的環境部好像事實上是看不到兒少然後也聽不到學校的那個污染求救所以我們來看一下 部長延續我3月18的一個質詢我想在這邊跟你確認一個共識問題孩子應該不是成人的縮影縮小版\n他們器官還在發育而且他們的呼吸的速度事實上是我們成人的兩倍而且活動量大然後體重又輕所以對於空氣污染的吸收跟傷害比成人想像的還嚴重多了這是世界衛生組織歐盟的研究都有提出來那空污對於成長階段的兒童健康影響會更長期而且是不可逆的\n部長想問你這事實上是上次我們就有一個基本公司對不對那既然認同的話我們就來看一個很大的問題就部長我上次質詢就提過室內空氣空瓶的空瓶法竟然沒有把高中以下的學校列入我認為這不是個別疏忽而是環境部整個政策都非常忽略而燒為什麼這樣提而且公約在2014年已經國內\n自行法通過之後再一年的時間要提出優先檢視清單三年內要修法五年內要完全符合公約那意味著什麼意味著2020年的話\n應該是要完全符合可是當然你會講說環境部事實上2023年才成立可是話再說回來前面還有環保署所以就想到底環境部做了什麼有沒有提出過兒童優先盤點的法規有沒有根據CRC這些提過任何的修法跟行政配套\n報告委員其實第一個是我非常贊同委員對於這樣的看法那目前我自己看到我們過去對於委員說的CRC那個方式我們在空污法裡面有針對一些高中有一些學校在緊急應變的時候的處理的確有一些特別的法案的條例來出來但是在這個\n整個這個就是屬於這種突發應變事故的時候的處理的確是有針對這個校園來做處理但是以整個空汙法裡面還沒有針對那我們也希望未來在修空汙法的時候能夠再特別再強化這一塊你知道這中間今天2017年 2021年因為每五年會有國家報告幾乎都沒有看到你們的角色在那空汙又對兒童影響這麼大為什麼環境部沒有具體的作為\n你剛剛講的事實上是單點的一些零散的法規所以我具體建議除了前次要求環境部主動納入兒少權法的主管機關以外因為現在兒少權法事實上你們是沒有角色的那請環境部依據公約全面啟動法規盤點而且研議在環境基本法名列兒童最佳利益的保障條款\n因為這過去本來就應該按照兒權公益四大原則去盤點你所有法規不要變成兒童權益在環境部事實上是失蹤的所以也想問部長你這部分你願不願意啟動並提出時程好委員這個再給我們再研議一下因為第一個是我們針對緊急應變事故的時候有但是委員特別提到的比較長期特別是空污整個整體的危害特別弱勢的可能還有一帶進步的空間那這個部分我們會再來研議一下好不好\n就是說因為包含了噪音或是空污等等國中小像空品維護區現在都是屬於一種政策型的我們在希望有建立這個制度但是還沒有入法來做這個事情因為明年2026年又是要交第三次國家報告的時候我不希望你們又是一個缺席的角色始終都沒有看到而且26號意見書已經都出來了氣候權本來就是孩子的基本的權利那你不能給他一個\n連他在上學的時候都沒有辦法安心上學可是我們相對的來看其他國家那既然保障全民健康是環境部的責任所以我們不能忽略兒童我上次就提醒過需要的是更高標準的保護這是國際的公式\n所以我們鄰近國家韓國這幾年對於兒童空屋的防治做得非常的完整是對於幼兒園小學比一般場所高標準可是你看我們連高中以下都沒有訂這些甚至他們在2019年修正了我們的學校保健法當然這是教育部的責任來明訂學校的校長要協助學校要空氣品質管理甚至中央要有補助去強制裝所謂空氣清淨機\n還有擴大整個的範圍也就是監測範圍甚至學校周遭應該有流動的監測車輛這也是上次我提醒說否則每次都說只是臭味也沒有檢測到什麼樣的一個有害物質讓他們可是只要臭味的話事實上我們在那邊整天在那學習的話效果並不是這麼的好甚至政府還可以宣布社會災難來動用中央\n預算的改善校園的設備這其他國家做的所以在這邊想問部長環境部是不是願意延續我剛才的要求同步參考韓國的經驗從法規預算行政命令這三個層次啟動全面的盤點跟修正\n這個沒有問題不過我也跟委員說因為韓國的空污比我們糟很多啦我們PM2.5大概平均是12.8去年那韓國大概還有20左右所以韓國的確遇到重大甚至他們還有來自於中國大陸的沙塵暴所以其實他們的空污事件比我們多很多但是委員的意見非常的好那我們會列入一個參考來加入演繹\n可是你說他很嚴重所以他啟動可是我們沒有他很嚴重我們一直完全也都沒有在做我知道我知道 讓我覺得百思不解今天尤其是我們已經兒權公約國內法化還這麼不注重兒少的權益那學校呢為什麼這個通報通報為什麼這麼難這麼久部長所以想請你正視一個問題我們的學校老師是來教書的不是來幫你做那個\n污染偵查員的從2014年的文府國小到現在2025年的獅子國中這些學校事後都被證實污染嚴重如果你講說台灣的沒有韓國這麼嚴重可是有些學校如果比韓國嚴重的話那你為什麼都沒有一些積極的處置呢可是學校和校長當初的通報卻都是沒有人理沒下文最常聽到的就是臭味不等於污染\n請再觀察看看啊結果就是老師自己記錄校長自己陳情奔走這樣是對的嗎為什麼老師要是在做環境單位的工作做你環境部\n我們的環保局的一個工作那這些案例從西樹林獅子國中通報多年無效甚至很多老師都想放棄了部長我認為這不是一個個案是制度的問題所以部長我想問的更直接一點現在學校校園空氣品質警示防護計畫要求學校通報當地環保局跟公害專線通報後環保單位有主動\n在做追蹤列管嗎有我們是主要是環管署他們是屬於稽查的單位他們會去經理部長要回答之前要先看獅子國中是他們2019陸續回應最近是有媒體踢爆之後你們才說而且處理到現在2025年你如果講說有那另外一個環境部到底在這個流程扮演什麼角色你說有的話那你們平常真的在對那個環保局做了什麼事情\n最主要是針對一些例如說工業區特殊性的工業區或是重大污染源旁邊其實大概有100多個學校我們都有重點的來協助來輔導為什麼人家獅子國中2019年到現在2025年幾年了因為它那個是有一個曆青的工廠它是一個月工作兩天所以在那兩天當中所以我們在等那兩天我上次也提過因為\n最後就變成學生要往外移 弱勢的孩子根本沒有條件這件事情應該要去處理所以部長也要問的是學校通報那個污染後常常只有稽查就沒有後續稽查完就結束了所以老師學生還得自己蒐證上街頭才能換來處理那你環境部在哪\n所以部長如果罪證確鑿的話這樣子是不是還要再走花好多年做體制外的申訴你認為現行制度真的有效嗎如果你剛剛講說環保局有在處理那為什麼我剛剛講私子國中都是一直2019年到2025年所以如果有效的話為什麼這些學校真的要自己苦撐自力救濟而且一定要\n透過報導者來報導或者是新聞媒體來揭露所以請問一下環境部現在有沒有一套針對校園空屋的SOP是整個通報系統我們目前是針對我們其實在之前就有發布公司場所對學校影響的會加重裁罰不過委員剛剛特別提到的這個有一些敏感高敏感的大概100多間學校我們會再來想辦法說是不是有一些更好的措施\n因為過去其實我也是常常會從這個媒體上面看到這樣的一個訊息所以未來我們會跟教育部來研議如果遇到空污事件或公關事件通報程序能不能再更好一點特別是所謂的弱勢在這種所謂的工廠周邊的學校所以我們會加強的首先會來處理所以部長也不是像你報告當中你今天提出來書面報告裡面第六頁講說環境部就去編寫一個校園室內空氣品質自主管理維護指引手冊因為\n外部的空氣飄進來的話你叫我怎麼自主管理所以我認為環保單位是不是應該要主動列管追蹤公開處理狀況及再申訴的機制不是把問題又丟回去給學校讓校長老師疲於奔命這個你們認不認同認同那所以你願不願意重新檢視我們環境部在這個流程的角色是不是主動扛起更多的責任邀請相關部會一起規劃\n好可以再來大家也要再提一次環境部還有個缺席就是我要追問關於工業區周邊的學校的防護在2018年6年前教育部就的防護校園防護計畫早就建議環境部要協助盤點工業區3公里範圍的中小學名單加強\n監測 稽查 主動協助學校通報啊協助學校 而不是學校自己來跟你們通報是你要協助學校通報但我們看到的是確實要老師申訴最近媒體通報環境部才會動所以部長這個防護計畫的盤點到底執行到哪有沒有固定監測 尤其我現在上面列的那幾個學校協調更新 甚至還是只上彈兵或者是對教育部已讀不回\n這個委員這個部分我們是有列管但是這個程序上能不能更好一點或更直接解決這個問題我會在一點時間我再來瞭解好不好好那就麻煩環境部是不是第一個先把兒童納入環境部的政策核心依兒權公約提出環境部優先盤點清單啟動修法跟凝聚政策因為明年\n2026年本來就是第三次國家報告要交你們不要再做缺席第二個是建立學校空污通報跟協助機制來強化環保單位的一個角色在所以SOP要訂出來再申訴機制那再加強工業區的周邊的中小學的盤點然後空氣品質的監控的一個項目來針對我們高污染熱區\n建立長期的監控跟資源的協助不要像你這邊如果是不是可以請孩子跟你們許願你的系列裡面活動裡面第七頁想說好空氣許願池我覺得應該請俄哨來跟部長來許願希望能夠真的是落實以上謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.476 --> 00:04.217\n主席麻煩我們的環境部部長\n\n00:09.987 --> 00:37.624\n部長我們今天還是要再來討論我們的兒少的環境部好像事實上是看不到兒少然後也聽不到學校的那個污染求救所以我們來看一下部長延續我3月18的一個質詢我想在這邊跟你確認一個共識問題孩子應該不是成人的縮影縮小版\n\n00:39.226 --> 01:02.414\n他們器官還在發育而且他們的呼吸的速度事實上是我們成人的兩倍而且活動量大然後體重又輕所以對於空氣污染的吸收跟傷害比成人想像的還嚴重多了這是世界衛生組織歐盟的研究都有提出來那空污對於成長階段的兒童健康影響會更長期而且是不可逆的\n\n01:02.895 --> 01:30.741\n部長想問你這事實上是上次我們就有一個基本公司對不對那既然認同的話我們就來看一個很大的問題就部長我上次質詢就提過室內空氣空瓶的空瓶法竟然沒有把高中以下的學校列入我認為這不是個別疏忽而是環境部整個政策都非常忽略而燒為什麼這樣提而且公約在2014年已經國內\n\n01:32.259 --> 01:46.092\n自行法通過之後再一年的時間要提出優先檢視清單三年內要修法五年內要完全符合公約那意味著什麼意味著2020年的話\n\n01:49.488 --> 02:11.323\n應該是要完全符合可是當然你會講說環境部事實上2023年才成立可是話再說回來前面還有環保署所以就想到底環境部做了什麼有沒有提出過兒童優先盤點的法規有沒有根據CRC這些提過任何的修法跟行政配套\n\n02:12.827 --> 02:30.429\n報告委員其實第一個是我非常贊同委員對於這樣的看法那目前我自己看到我們過去對於委員說的CRC那個方式我們在空污法裡面有針對一些高中有一些學校在緊急應變的時候的處理的確有一些特別的法案的條例來出來但是在這個\n\n02:31.170 --> 02:56.808\n整個這個就是屬於這種突發應變事故的時候的處理的確是有針對這個校園來做處理但是以整個空汙法裡面還沒有針對那我們也希望未來在修空汙法的時候能夠再特別再強化這一塊你知道這中間今天2017年2021年因為每五年會有國家報告幾乎都沒有看到你們的角色在那空汙又對兒童影響這麼大為什麼環境部沒有具體的作為\n\n02:57.308 --> 03:21.829\n你剛剛講的事實上是單點的一些零散的法規所以我具體建議除了前次要求環境部主動納入兒少權法的主管機關以外因為現在兒少權法事實上你們是沒有角色的那請環境部依據公約全面啟動法規盤點而且研議在環境基本法名列兒童最佳利益的保障條款\n\n03:23.035 --> 03:52.795\n因為這過去本來就應該按照兒權公益四大原則去盤點你所有法規不要變成兒童權益在環境部事實上是失蹤的所以也想問部長你這部分你願不願意啟動並提出時程好委員這個再給我們再研議一下因為第一個是我們針對緊急應變事故的時候有但是委員特別提到的比較長期特別是空污整個整體的危害特別弱勢的可能還有一帶進步的空間那這個部分我們會再來研議一下好不好\n\n03:53.195 --> 04:18.795\n就是說因為包含了噪音或是空污等等國中小像空品維護區現在都是屬於一種政策型的我們在希望有建立這個制度但是還沒有入法來做這個事情因為明年2026年又是要交第三次國家報告的時候我不希望你們又是一個缺席的角色始終都沒有看到而且26號意見書已經都出來了氣候權本來就是孩子的基本的權利那你不能給他一個\n\n04:19.884 --> 04:35.844\n連他在上學的時候都沒有辦法安心上學可是我們相對的來看其他國家那既然保障全民健康是環境部的責任所以我們不能忽略兒童我上次就提醒過需要的是更高標準的保護這是國際的公式\n\n04:37.202 --> 05:05.072\n所以我們鄰近國家韓國這幾年對於兒童空屋的防治做得非常的完整是對於幼兒園小學比一般場所高標準可是你看我們連高中以下都沒有訂這些甚至他們在2019年修正了我們的學校保健法當然這是教育部的責任來明訂學校的校長要協助學校要空氣品質管理甚至中央要有補助去強制裝所謂空氣清淨機\n\n05:06.512 --> 05:30.202\n還有擴大整個的範圍也就是監測範圍甚至學校周遭應該有流動的監測車輛這也是上次我提醒說否則每次都說只是臭味也沒有檢測到什麼樣的一個有害物質讓他們可是只要臭味的話事實上我們在那邊整天在那學習的話效果並不是這麼的好甚至政府還可以宣布社會災難來動用中央\n\n05:32.343 --> 05:48.568\n預算的改善校園的設備這其他國家做的所以在這邊想問部長環境部是不是願意延續我剛才的要求同步參考韓國的經驗從法規預算行政命令這三個層次啟動全面的盤點跟修正\n\n05:49.548 --> 06:09.785\n這個沒有問題不過我也跟委員說因為韓國的空污比我們糟很多啦我們PM2.5大概平均是12.8去年那韓國大概還有20左右所以韓國的確遇到重大甚至他們還有來自於中國大陸的沙塵暴所以其實他們的空污事件比我們多很多但是委員的意見非常的好那我們會列入一個參考來加入演繹\n\n06:10.370 --> 06:31.406\n可是你說他很嚴重所以他啟動可是我們沒有他很嚴重我們一直完全也都沒有在做我知道我知道讓我覺得百思不解今天尤其是我們已經兒權公約國內法化還這麼不注重兒少的權益那學校呢為什麼這個通報通報為什麼這麼難這麼久部長所以想請你正視一個問題我們的學校老師是來教書的不是來幫你做那個\n\n06:40.997 --> 07:07.616\n污染偵查員的從2014年的文府國小到現在2025年的獅子國中這些學校事後都被證實污染嚴重如果你講說台灣的沒有韓國這麼嚴重可是有些學校如果比韓國嚴重的話那你為什麼都沒有一些積極的處置呢可是學校和校長當初的通報卻都是沒有人理沒下文最常聽到的就是臭味不等於污染\n\n07:08.317 --> 07:18.668\n請再觀察看看啊結果就是老師自己記錄校長自己陳情奔走這樣是對的嗎為什麼老師要是在做環境單位的工作做你環境部\n\n07:19.482 --> 07:45.703\n我們的環保局的一個工作那這些案例從西樹林獅子國中通報多年無效甚至很多老師都想放棄了部長我認為這不是一個個案是制度的問題所以部長我想問的更直接一點現在學校校園空氣品質警示防護計畫要求學校通報當地環保局跟公害專線通報後環保單位有主動\n\n07:46.824 --> 08:14.066\n在做追蹤列管嗎有我們是主要是環管署他們是屬於稽查的單位他們會去經理部長要回答之前要先看獅子國中是他們2019陸續回應最近是有媒體踢爆之後你們才說而且處理到現在2025年你如果講說有那另外一個環境部到底在這個流程扮演什麼角色你說有的話那你們平常真的在對那個環保局做了什麼事情\n\n08:14.489 --> 08:27.361\n最主要是針對一些例如說工業區特殊性的工業區或是重大污染源旁邊其實大概有100多個學校我們都有重點的來協助來輔導為什麼人家獅子國中2019年到現在2025年幾年了因為它那個是有一個曆青的工廠它是一個月工作兩天所以在那兩天當中所以我們在等那兩天我上次也提過因為\n\n08:38.251 --> 09:02.046\n最後就變成學生要往外移弱勢的孩子根本沒有條件這件事情應該要去處理所以部長也要問的是學校通報那個污染後常常只有稽查就沒有後續稽查完就結束了所以老師學生還得自己蒐證上街頭才能換來處理那你環境部在哪\n\n09:03.106 --> 09:25.733\n所以部長如果罪證確鑿的話這樣子是不是還要再走花好多年做體制外的申訴你認為現行制度真的有效嗎如果你剛剛講說環保局有在處理那為什麼我剛剛講私子國中都是一直2019年到2025年所以如果有效的話為什麼這些學校真的要自己苦撐自力救濟而且一定要\n\n09:26.073 --> 09:54.338\n透過報導者來報導或者是新聞媒體來揭露所以請問一下環境部現在有沒有一套針對校園空屋的SOP是整個通報系統我們目前是針對我們其實在之前就有發布公司場所對學校影響的會加重裁罰不過委員剛剛特別提到的這個有一些敏感高敏感的大概100多間學校我們會再來想辦法說是不是有一些更好的措施\n\n09:54.818 --> 10:23.518\n因為過去其實我也是常常會從這個媒體上面看到這樣的一個訊息所以未來我們會跟教育部來研議如果遇到空污事件或公關事件通報程序能不能再更好一點特別是所謂的弱勢在這種所謂的工廠周邊的學校所以我們會加強的首先會來處理所以部長也不是像你報告當中你今天提出來書面報告裡面第六頁講說環境部就去編寫一個校園室內空氣品質自主管理維護指引手冊因為\n\n10:24.278 --> 10:53.223\n外部的空氣飄進來的話你叫我怎麼自主管理所以我認為環保單位是不是應該要主動列管追蹤公開處理狀況及再申訴的機制不是把問題又丟回去給學校讓校長老師疲於奔命這個你們認不認同認同那所以你願不願意重新檢視我們環境部在這個流程的角色是不是主動扛起更多的責任邀請相關部會一起規劃\n\n10:54.923 --> 11:13.082\n好可以再來大家也要再提一次環境部還有個缺席就是我要追問關於工業區周邊的學校的防護在2018年6年前教育部就的防護校園防護計畫早就建議環境部要協助盤點工業區3公里範圍的中小學名單加強\n\n11:15.024 --> 11:41.017\n監測稽查主動協助學校通報啊協助學校而不是學校自己來跟你們通報是你要協助學校通報但我們看到的是確實要老師申訴最近媒體通報環境部才會動所以部長這個防護計畫的盤點到底執行到哪有沒有固定監測尤其我現在上面列的那幾個學校協調更新甚至還是只上彈兵或者是對教育部已讀不回\n\n11:42.931 --> 12:04.267\n這個委員這個部分我們是有列管但是這個程序上能不能更好一點或更直接解決這個問題我會在一點時間我再來瞭解好不好好那就麻煩環境部是不是第一個先把兒童納入環境部的政策核心依兒權公約提出環境部優先盤點清單啟動修法跟凝聚政策因為明年\n\n12:05.607 --> 12:27.315\n2026年本來就是第三次國家報告要交你們不要再做缺席第二個是建立學校空污通報跟協助機制來強化環保單位的一個角色在所以SOP要訂出來再申訴機制那再加強工業區的周邊的中小學的盤點然後空氣品質的監控的一個項目來針對我們高污染熱區\n\n12:29.130 --> 12:47.912\n建立長期的監控跟資源的協助不要像你這邊如果是不是可以請孩子跟你們許願你的系列裡面活動裡面第七頁想說好空氣許願池我覺得應該請俄哨來跟部長來許願希望能夠真的是落實以上謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.476,"end":4.217,"text":"主席麻煩我們的環境部部長"},{"start":9.987,"end":37.624,"text":"部長我們今天還是要再來討論我們的兒少的環境部好像事實上是看不到兒少然後也聽不到學校的那個污染求救所以我們來看一下 部長延續我3月18的一個質詢我想在這邊跟你確認一個共識問題孩子應該不是成人的縮影縮小版"},{"start":39.226,"end":62.414,"text":"他們器官還在發育而且他們的呼吸的速度事實上是我們成人的兩倍而且活動量大然後體重又輕所以對於空氣污染的吸收跟傷害比成人想像的還嚴重多了這是世界衛生組織歐盟的研究都有提出來那空污對於成長階段的兒童健康影響會更長期而且是不可逆的"},{"start":62.895,"end":90.741,"text":"部長想問你這事實上是上次我們就有一個基本公司對不對那既然認同的話我們就來看一個很大的問題就部長我上次質詢就提過室內空氣空瓶的空瓶法竟然沒有把高中以下的學校列入我認為這不是個別疏忽而是環境部整個政策都非常忽略而燒為什麼這樣提而且公約在2014年已經國內"},{"start":92.259,"end":106.092,"text":"自行法通過之後再一年的時間要提出優先檢視清單三年內要修法五年內要完全符合公約那意味著什麼意味著2020年的話"},{"start":109.488,"end":131.323,"text":"應該是要完全符合可是當然你會講說環境部事實上2023年才成立可是話再說回來前面還有環保署所以就想到底環境部做了什麼有沒有提出過兒童優先盤點的法規有沒有根據CRC這些提過任何的修法跟行政配套"},{"start":132.827,"end":150.429,"text":"報告委員其實第一個是我非常贊同委員對於這樣的看法那目前我自己看到我們過去對於委員說的CRC那個方式我們在空污法裡面有針對一些高中有一些學校在緊急應變的時候的處理的確有一些特別的法案的條例來出來但是在這個"},{"start":151.17,"end":176.808,"text":"整個這個就是屬於這種突發應變事故的時候的處理的確是有針對這個校園來做處理但是以整個空汙法裡面還沒有針對那我們也希望未來在修空汙法的時候能夠再特別再強化這一塊你知道這中間今天2017年 2021年因為每五年會有國家報告幾乎都沒有看到你們的角色在那空汙又對兒童影響這麼大為什麼環境部沒有具體的作為"},{"start":177.308,"end":201.829,"text":"你剛剛講的事實上是單點的一些零散的法規所以我具體建議除了前次要求環境部主動納入兒少權法的主管機關以外因為現在兒少權法事實上你們是沒有角色的那請環境部依據公約全面啟動法規盤點而且研議在環境基本法名列兒童最佳利益的保障條款"},{"start":203.035,"end":232.795,"text":"因為這過去本來就應該按照兒權公益四大原則去盤點你所有法規不要變成兒童權益在環境部事實上是失蹤的所以也想問部長你這部分你願不願意啟動並提出時程好委員這個再給我們再研議一下因為第一個是我們針對緊急應變事故的時候有但是委員特別提到的比較長期特別是空污整個整體的危害特別弱勢的可能還有一帶進步的空間那這個部分我們會再來研議一下好不好"},{"start":233.195,"end":258.795,"text":"就是說因為包含了噪音或是空污等等國中小像空品維護區現在都是屬於一種政策型的我們在希望有建立這個制度但是還沒有入法來做這個事情因為明年2026年又是要交第三次國家報告的時候我不希望你們又是一個缺席的角色始終都沒有看到而且26號意見書已經都出來了氣候權本來就是孩子的基本的權利那你不能給他一個"},{"start":259.884,"end":275.844,"text":"連他在上學的時候都沒有辦法安心上學可是我們相對的來看其他國家那既然保障全民健康是環境部的責任所以我們不能忽略兒童我上次就提醒過需要的是更高標準的保護這是國際的公式"},{"start":277.202,"end":305.072,"text":"所以我們鄰近國家韓國這幾年對於兒童空屋的防治做得非常的完整是對於幼兒園小學比一般場所高標準可是你看我們連高中以下都沒有訂這些甚至他們在2019年修正了我們的學校保健法當然這是教育部的責任來明訂學校的校長要協助學校要空氣品質管理甚至中央要有補助去強制裝所謂空氣清淨機"},{"start":306.512,"end":330.202,"text":"還有擴大整個的範圍也就是監測範圍甚至學校周遭應該有流動的監測車輛這也是上次我提醒說否則每次都說只是臭味也沒有檢測到什麼樣的一個有害物質讓他們可是只要臭味的話事實上我們在那邊整天在那學習的話效果並不是這麼的好甚至政府還可以宣布社會災難來動用中央"},{"start":332.343,"end":348.568,"text":"預算的改善校園的設備這其他國家做的所以在這邊想問部長環境部是不是願意延續我剛才的要求同步參考韓國的經驗從法規預算行政命令這三個層次啟動全面的盤點跟修正"},{"start":349.548,"end":369.785,"text":"這個沒有問題不過我也跟委員說因為韓國的空污比我們糟很多啦我們PM2.5大概平均是12.8去年那韓國大概還有20左右所以韓國的確遇到重大甚至他們還有來自於中國大陸的沙塵暴所以其實他們的空污事件比我們多很多但是委員的意見非常的好那我們會列入一個參考來加入演繹"},{"start":370.37,"end":391.406,"text":"可是你說他很嚴重所以他啟動可是我們沒有他很嚴重我們一直完全也都沒有在做我知道我知道 讓我覺得百思不解今天尤其是我們已經兒權公約國內法化還這麼不注重兒少的權益那學校呢為什麼這個通報通報為什麼這麼難這麼久部長所以想請你正視一個問題我們的學校老師是來教書的不是來幫你做那個"},{"start":400.997,"end":427.616,"text":"污染偵查員的從2014年的文府國小到現在2025年的獅子國中這些學校事後都被證實污染嚴重如果你講說台灣的沒有韓國這麼嚴重可是有些學校如果比韓國嚴重的話那你為什麼都沒有一些積極的處置呢可是學校和校長當初的通報卻都是沒有人理沒下文最常聽到的就是臭味不等於污染"},{"start":428.317,"end":438.668,"text":"請再觀察看看啊結果就是老師自己記錄校長自己陳情奔走這樣是對的嗎為什麼老師要是在做環境單位的工作做你環境部"},{"start":439.482,"end":465.703,"text":"我們的環保局的一個工作那這些案例從西樹林獅子國中通報多年無效甚至很多老師都想放棄了部長我認為這不是一個個案是制度的問題所以部長我想問的更直接一點現在學校校園空氣品質警示防護計畫要求學校通報當地環保局跟公害專線通報後環保單位有主動"},{"start":466.824,"end":494.066,"text":"在做追蹤列管嗎有我們是主要是環管署他們是屬於稽查的單位他們會去經理部長要回答之前要先看獅子國中是他們2019陸續回應最近是有媒體踢爆之後你們才說而且處理到現在2025年你如果講說有那另外一個環境部到底在這個流程扮演什麼角色你說有的話那你們平常真的在對那個環保局做了什麼事情"},{"start":494.489,"end":507.361,"text":"最主要是針對一些例如說工業區特殊性的工業區或是重大污染源旁邊其實大概有100多個學校我們都有重點的來協助來輔導為什麼人家獅子國中2019年到現在2025年幾年了因為它那個是有一個曆青的工廠它是一個月工作兩天所以在那兩天當中所以我們在等那兩天我上次也提過因為"},{"start":518.251,"end":542.046,"text":"最後就變成學生要往外移 弱勢的孩子根本沒有條件這件事情應該要去處理所以部長也要問的是學校通報那個污染後常常只有稽查就沒有後續稽查完就結束了所以老師學生還得自己蒐證上街頭才能換來處理那你環境部在哪"},{"start":543.106,"end":565.733,"text":"所以部長如果罪證確鑿的話這樣子是不是還要再走花好多年做體制外的申訴你認為現行制度真的有效嗎如果你剛剛講說環保局有在處理那為什麼我剛剛講私子國中都是一直2019年到2025年所以如果有效的話為什麼這些學校真的要自己苦撐自力救濟而且一定要"},{"start":566.073,"end":594.338,"text":"透過報導者來報導或者是新聞媒體來揭露所以請問一下環境部現在有沒有一套針對校園空屋的SOP是整個通報系統我們目前是針對我們其實在之前就有發布公司場所對學校影響的會加重裁罰不過委員剛剛特別提到的這個有一些敏感高敏感的大概100多間學校我們會再來想辦法說是不是有一些更好的措施"},{"start":594.818,"end":623.518,"text":"因為過去其實我也是常常會從這個媒體上面看到這樣的一個訊息所以未來我們會跟教育部來研議如果遇到空污事件或公關事件通報程序能不能再更好一點特別是所謂的弱勢在這種所謂的工廠周邊的學校所以我們會加強的首先會來處理所以部長也不是像你報告當中你今天提出來書面報告裡面第六頁講說環境部就去編寫一個校園室內空氣品質自主管理維護指引手冊因為"},{"start":624.278,"end":653.223,"text":"外部的空氣飄進來的話你叫我怎麼自主管理所以我認為環保單位是不是應該要主動列管追蹤公開處理狀況及再申訴的機制不是把問題又丟回去給學校讓校長老師疲於奔命這個你們認不認同認同那所以你願不願意重新檢視我們環境部在這個流程的角色是不是主動扛起更多的責任邀請相關部會一起規劃"},{"start":654.923,"end":673.082,"text":"好可以再來大家也要再提一次環境部還有個缺席就是我要追問關於工業區周邊的學校的防護在2018年6年前教育部就的防護校園防護計畫早就建議環境部要協助盤點工業區3公里範圍的中小學名單加強"},{"start":675.024,"end":701.017,"text":"監測 稽查 主動協助學校通報啊協助學校 而不是學校自己來跟你們通報是你要協助學校通報但我們看到的是確實要老師申訴最近媒體通報環境部才會動所以部長這個防護計畫的盤點到底執行到哪有沒有固定監測 尤其我現在上面列的那幾個學校協調更新 甚至還是只上彈兵或者是對教育部已讀不回"},{"start":702.931,"end":724.267,"text":"這個委員這個部分我們是有列管但是這個程序上能不能更好一點或更直接解決這個問題我會在一點時間我再來瞭解好不好好那就麻煩環境部是不是第一個先把兒童納入環境部的政策核心依兒權公約提出環境部優先盤點清單啟動修法跟凝聚政策因為明年"},{"start":725.607,"end":747.315,"text":"2026年本來就是第三次國家報告要交你們不要再做缺席第二個是建立學校空污通報跟協助機制來強化環保單位的一個角色在所以SOP要訂出來再申訴機制那再加強工業區的周邊的中小學的盤點然後空氣品質的監控的一個項目來針對我們高污染熱區"},{"start":749.13,"end":767.912,"text":"建立長期的監控跟資源的協助不要像你這邊如果是不是可以請孩子跟你們許願你的系列裡面活動裡面第七頁想說好空氣許願池我覺得應該請俄哨來跟部長來許願希望能夠真的是落實以上謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":311,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時27分）主席，麻煩環境部部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。部長，我們今天還是要再來討論，環境部好像看不到兒少，然聽不到學校的污染求救，所以我們來看一下。部長，延續我3月18的質詢，我想在這邊跟你確認一個共識問題，孩子應該不是成人的縮影、縮小版，因為他們的器官還在發育，而且他們呼吸的速率、速度事實上是成人的兩倍，而且活動量大然後體重又輕，所以對於空氣污染的吸收跟傷害比成人想像得還嚴重多了，這是世界衛生組織、歐盟的研究都有提出來的，空污對於成長階段的兒童健康影響會更長期，而且是不可逆的。部長，想問你，這事實上是上次我們就有的基本共識，對不對？認同吧！"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯！"],["林委員月琴：既然認同的話，我們就來看一個很大的問題。我上次質詢就有提過室內空品的空品法，竟然沒有把高中以下的學校列入，我認為這不是個別疏忽，而是環境部整個政策都非常忽略兒少，為什麼這樣提？兒權公約在2014年國內施行法通過之後，再1年的時間要提出優先檢視清單，3年內要修法、5年內要完全符合公約，那意味著什麼？意味著2020年應該要完全符合，當然你會說環境部事實上2023年才成立，可是話再說回來，前面還有環保署，所以就想到底環境部做了什麼？有沒有提出過兒童優先盤點的法規？有沒有根據CRC這一些提過任何的修法跟行政配套？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個，我非常贊同委員這樣的看法，目前我自己看到我們過去對於委員所說CRC的方式，我們在空污法裡面有針對一些高中，還有一些學校在緊急應變時的處理，的確有一些特別的法案條例出來，屬於這種突發應變事故時的處理的確是有針對校園，但是以整個空污法裡面還沒有，我們也希望未來在修空污法的時候，能夠特別再強化這一塊。"],["林委員月琴：你知道這中間經歷2017年、2021年，因為每五年會有國家報告要繳，幾乎都沒有看到你們的角色在，那空污又對兒童影響這麼大，為什麼環境部沒有具體的作為？你剛剛所講的，事實上是單點的、一些零散的法規，所以我具體建議除了前次要求環境部主動納入兒少權法的主管機關以外，因為現在兒少權法事實上你們是沒有角色的，請環境部依據公約全面啟動法規盤點，而且研議在環境基本法明列兒童最佳利益的保障條款。因為過去本來就應該要按照兒權公約四大原則去盤點所有法規，不要變成兒童權益在環境部事實上是失蹤的，所以也想問部長，這部分你願不願意啟動並提出時程？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個再給我們研議一下，因為第一個是我們針對緊急應變事故的時候有，但是委員特別提到的比較長期，特別是空污整體危害弱勢者，可能還有待進步的空間，這個部分我們會再來研議一下，好不好？因為包含了噪音或是空污等等國中小像空品維護區，現在都是屬於一種政策型的，我們希望建立這個制度，但是還沒有入法來做這個事情。"],["林委員月琴：好。因為明（2026）年又是要交第3次國家報告的時候，我不希望你們又是一個缺席的角色，始終都沒有看到。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["林委員月琴：而且第26號意見書已經都出來了，氣候權本來就是孩子的基本權利，不能連他在上學的時候都沒有辦法安心上學。","可是我們相對的來看其他國家，既然保障全民健康是環境部的責任，所以我們不能忽略兒童，我上次就提醒過需要的是更高標準的保護，這是國際的共識。鄰近國家韓國這幾年對於兒童空污的防制做得非常完整，對於幼兒園、小學比一般場所高標準，可是你看我們連高中以下都沒有訂這些，甚至他們在2019年修正了學校保健法，當然這是教育部的責任，明定學校校長要協助學校空氣品質管理，甚至中央有補助教室強制裝空氣清淨機，還有擴大整個監測範圍，甚至學校周遭應該有流動的監測車輛，這也是上次我提醒，否則每次都只說是臭味，卻沒有檢測到什麼樣有害物質。可是只要有臭味的話，事實上整天在那邊學習，效果並不是這麼好，甚至政府還可以宣布社會災難，動用中央預算改善校園設備，這是其他國家做的。所以想問部長，環境部是不是願意延續我剛才的要求，同步參考韓國經驗，從法規、預算、行政命令這三個層次啟動全面的盤點跟修正？"],["彭部長啓明：好，這個沒有問題。不過我也跟委員說，因為韓國的空污比我們糟很多，我們PM2.5去年大概平均是12.8μg/m3，韓國大概還有20μg/m3左右，所以韓國的確遇到重大……甚至他們還有來自於中國大陸的沙塵暴，所以其實他們的空污事件比我們多很多。但是委員的意見非常好，我們會列入參考並加入研議。"],["林委員月琴：你說它很嚴重，所以他要啟動，雖然我們沒有他們那麼嚴重……"],["彭部長啓明：我們還可以更好。"],["林委員月琴：可是我們也是完全都沒有在做。"],["彭部長啓明：對，我知道。"],["林委員月琴：這讓我覺得百思不解，尤其是我們已經將兒權公約國內法化，還這麼不注重兒少權益。","學校為什麼空污通報為什麼這麼難、這麼久？部長，所以想請你正視一個問題，學校老師是來教書的，不是來幫你做污染偵查員的，從2014年的文府國小，到現在2025年的獅子國中，這些學校事後都被證實污染嚴重，你說臺灣沒有韓國這麼嚴重，可是有些學校如果比韓國嚴重的話，你為什麼都沒有一些積極的處置呢？學校和校長當初的通報卻都是沒有人理、沒下文，最常聽到的就是「臭味不等於污染，請再觀察看看」，結果就是老師自己記錄、校長自己陳情奔走，這樣是對的嗎？為什麼老師在做環境單位的工作，做環境部、環保局的工作？重溪、樹林、獅子國中等這些案例通報多年無效，甚至很多老師都想放棄了。部長，我認為這不是一個個案，是制度的問題，所以我想問得更直接一點，現在學校校園空氣品質警示及防護計畫要求學校通報當地環保局及撥打公害專線，通報後，環保單位有主動追蹤列管嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：有，我們主要是環管署，他們是屬於稽查的單位，他們會去盡力。"],["林委員月琴：部長，要回答之前要先看，獅子國中從2019陸續反映，最近是有媒體踢爆之後你們才做，而且處理到現在2025年，你如果講說有……另外，環境部到底在這個流程扮演什麼角色？你說有的話，平常環保局做了什麼事情？"],["彭部長啓明：最主要是針對一些例如工業區、特殊性的工業區或是重大污染源旁邊，其實大概有一百多個學校，我們都有重點協助、輔導。"],["林委員月琴：為什麼獅子國中從2019年反映到現在2025年？幾年了？"],["彭部長啓明：因為它是有一個瀝青工廠，一個月工作兩天，所以在那兩天當中、所以我們也在等那兩天，我們會去抓……"],["林委員月琴：我上次也提過，因為最後就變成學生要往外移，弱勢的孩子根本沒有條件，這件事情應該要去處理，所以部長，也要問的是學校通報污染後，常常只有稽查就沒有後續，稽查完就結束了，所以老師、學生還得自己蒐證，上街頭才能換來處理，那環境部在哪？部長，如果罪證確鑿的話，這樣子是不是還要再花好多年走體制外的申訴？你認為現行制度真的有效嗎？如果是你剛剛說的環保局有在處理，為什麼我剛剛講獅子國中2019年到2025年都是一直……如果有效的話，為什麼這些學校真的要自己苦撐、自力救濟，而且一定要透過報導者報導或者是新聞媒體揭露？請問一下，環境部現在有沒有一套針對校園空污通報系統的SOP？"],["彭部長啓明：我們其實之前就有發布公私場所危害空品……對學校有影響的會加重裁罰。不過委員剛剛特別提到，有一些高敏感的大概一百多間學校，我們會再來想辦法是不是有一些更好的措施。因為過去其實我也常常會從媒體上面看到這樣的訊息，所以未來我們會跟教育部研議，如果遇到空污事件或公害事件通報程序能不能再更好一點，特別是所謂的弱勢在這種工廠周邊的學校，所以我們會加強的首先來處理。"],["林委員月琴：所以部長，也不是像你今天提出的書面報告裡面第6頁所講，環境部編寫校園室內空氣品質自主管理維護指引手冊，因為外部的空氣飄進來的話，你叫我怎麼自主管理？所以我認為環保單位是不是應該要主動列管追蹤、公開處理狀況及再申訴的機制，不是把問題又丟回去給學校，讓校長、老師疲於奔命，這個你們認不認同？"],["彭部長啓明：認同。"],["林委員月琴：你願不願意重新檢視環境部在這個流程的角色，是不是主動扛起更多的責任，邀請相關部會一起規劃？"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以。"],["林委員月琴：再來，當然也要再提一次，環境部還有一個缺失，就是我要追問關於工業區周邊學校的防護，在2018年，六年前教育部校園防護計畫早就建議環境部要協助盤點工業區3公里範圍的中小學名單，加強監測稽查，主動協助學校通報，而不是學校自己來跟你們通報，是你要協助學校通報，我們看到的卻是要老師申訴，最近媒體通報，環境部才會動。部長，這個防護計畫的盤點到底執行到哪？有沒有固定監測？尤其我現在上邊列的那幾個學校協調更新，甚至還是紙上談兵或者是對教育部已讀不回。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個部分我們是有列管，但是這個程序上能不能更好一點或更直接解決這個問題，我會再用一點時間來了解，好不好？"],["林委員月琴：好，那就麻煩環境部，第一個，先把兒童納入環境部的政策核心，依兒權公約提出環境部優先盤點清單，啟動修法跟凝聚政策，因為明（2026）年本來就是第3次國家報告要交，你們不要再缺席。第二個是建立學校空污通報跟協助機制來強化環保單位的角色，所以那個SOP還有再申訴機制要訂出來，再加強盤點工業區周邊中小學空氣品質監控的項目，針對高污染熱區建立長期監控跟資源協助，不要像……是不是可以請孩子跟你們許願？你們的系列活動裡面，在第7頁講到「好空氣許願池」，我覺得應該請兒少來跟部長許願，希望能夠真的落實。以上，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請陳菁徽委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","黃秀芳","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","張啓楷","楊曜","陳瑩","蘇清泉","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":427,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、外交部就「因應美國退出巴黎氣候協定並提出對等關稅，對國內\n產業淨零轉型造成衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、勞動部、教育部、經\n濟部針對「國內校園、賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物管理及防制精進作為」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00007"}}}