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\"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"獎\"}, {\"word\": \"勵\"}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 739.01, \"end\": 739.13, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 739.13, \"end\": 739.451, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 739.451, \"end\": 739.651, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 739.651, \"end\": 739.891, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 739.891, \"end\": 739.991, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 739.991, \"end\": 740.071, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 740.071, \"end\": 740.371, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 740.371, \"end\": 740.391, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,015 --> 00:00:01,975\n好謝謝主席我們是不是有請彭部長來請部長王委員好部長好部長我們今天討論這個環境部重要的議題首先我就是要針對之前你們修的這個法就是開發行為要實施還品的這個29條\n\n2\n00:00:27,206 --> 00:00:31,950\n來跟您做討論那主要是過去會要修正29條有看到台南小二甲的案例這個化整為零還有就是大規模的毀零重電那這些都不需要環評引發社會非常大的一個爭議那我就要請教你你修法完之後這兩個議題有沒有充分解決了第一個是\n\n3\n00:00:51,556 --> 00:01:00,316\n像小二甲這樣子化整為領的部分在你新通過的法令裡面是不是未來就可以全面性的杜絕\n\n4\n00:01:01,918 --> 00:01:24,759\n包委員其實目前對於這個農地或濕地或是說山坡地或是造林地其實目前按照現在的這個規定的話是有列入管制的所以小二甲的情況不會再出現不會不會原地的都可以被管制包委員這個都有光電業者都來跟我們抗議所以表示說這個這個環評的是有效因為他們也擔心會阻礙太陽光電的發展好所以表示說這個是有效的好\n\n5\n00:01:25,239 --> 00:01:44,823\n那在小二甲的這個杜絕的部分化整危險的部分有成效但是有一個部分呢毀零重電我看到你們還是幫經濟部開了綠燈就是之前發生在嘉義縣東石鄉這個台塘林場造地77公頃人工防風零20餘年因為要毀零重電鄉親大幅的抗議跟反彈\n\n6\n00:01:51,451 --> 00:02:09,094\n那這件事情呢你們當時也說會透過修法來處理結果我看了你們的修法在29條裡面你們還是開了一個綠燈啊只要能源主管機關同意者不在此限那你這有修跟沒修這個完全是一樣的\n\n7\n00:02:09,875 --> 00:02:26,870\n因為這一些大規模的光電都是經濟部就是默許嘛因為現在缺電嘛所以同意他們開發那你為什麼還在這邊就是你們自己環境部這個你們自己的這個權利就是你們不敢用出來還刻意給這個經濟部一個開綠燈\n\n8\n00:02:32,557 --> 00:02:51,020\n包委員這個因為這個當時定的定義的是跨部會的協商那其實針對政府核定的這個相關的補助的土地例如說像這個是台湯的土地或是說公有的土地本身就是屬於經由能源主管機關同意的就沒有在我們的管轄的範圍裡面我覺得這個是經濟部主管的這樣的一個修法\n\n9\n00:02:51,841 --> 00:03:09,685\n本席還是不能同意因為其實各部會各司其職環境部你應該要肩負的就是整個環境的永續你的考量點跟經濟部一定是不一樣的那今天環評的這個權利就在你的手上所以基本上你是應該要用環境部的角度來看待這樣的一個個案\n\n10\n00:03:12,146 --> 00:03:30,278\n而不是你用整個權力還回去給經濟部經濟部當然是官官相護啊他怎麼可能會去擋自己旗下的這個光電業者的開發所以如果是這樣子你這一個的修法有修等於沒有修啦部長你自己有沒有看到這個問題這一點我是覺得環境部不應該去退讓你看以嘉義縣的這一個它整個是高達77公頃欸這麼大規模整個毀零重電部長如果是你你可以同意嗎\n\n11\n00:03:42,698 --> 00:03:49,763\n這個對於環境的永續連鄉親都大力的抗議那未來類似這樣的案例只要經濟部同意他一樣照樣通過這個主要是這個地才是屬於台塘的地啊這個是經濟部部長之外主管我知道是他們的地但是這樣大規模違反環境永續的原則然後大規模的去把樹砍掉你知道這些\n\n12\n00:04:07,096 --> 00:04:36,816\n你要種個一二十年它對整個環境它所帶來的正面的影響是很大的那你今天為了這些光電業者的利益你就整個把它大規模的毀壞我覺得這個部分是你們這次修法上面一個很大的漏洞而且也沒有補起來我希望部長你可以看到這樣子的一個問題你們應該持續去演繹我真的不希望下一個這種大規模的毀零種電的情況在台灣再發生我覺得這個是違反永續的世界潮流的\n\n13\n00:04:37,336 --> 00:04:43,240\n也違反減碳的精神那接下來我要讓你看一下現在環境部針對幾個環評你們的立場\n\n14\n00:04:46,909 --> 00:05:08,045\n到底是什麼怎麼看起來這個立場都不太一致像這個基隆協和電廠這個事後被發現這個土地有遭受到污染那你們是事後你們等於是先過環評事後再說我們再來揭弊再來嚴查這樣子是對的嗎環評不是應該是把關在前面嗎\n\n15\n00:05:10,059 --> 00:05:25,224\n這個部分部長你有什麼意見關於基隆協和電廠其實任何人他想要開發可能開發這個土地或等等他有他自己的意願那他送來我們這邊地方我們是裁判的角色所以我們沒有辦法說你不准給我送過來這個我們是要做的\n\n16\n00:05:25,384 --> 00:05:28,628\n但是你的環評的決策就很重要通過跟不通過它就是有意義的當它不符合你整個環評的要件的時候你是可以讓它不通過的這個就是環境部我們要你獨立出來升格你一個很重要\n\n17\n00:05:42,086 --> 00:05:56,503\n你要扮演一個把關的機制但是在這個金融協和電廠我還是看到很抱歉我坦白講這個雖然部長你之前有說你們不是經濟部的經濟部不是大哥你們不是小弟但是在一些關鍵的環評的案件上面\n\n18\n00:05:58,646 --> 00:06:21,768\n看起來經濟部的主導性還是很強還是你有口難言因為這個是行政院要通過的東西即使是環境部也不能擋就必須順著經濟部的意就是一定是要讓他通過我個人看到是有這樣子的一個感覺就是你是不是即使你貴為部長也有身不由己的地方這個是上面有交辦的應該要過的所以你們也不能擋\n\n19\n00:06:22,389 --> 00:06:48,423\n好包委員我擔任環境部長之內我沒有接遇到我的院長給我一個指示這個案要過或不要過我也從來不會跟環評委員說這個要給我過不過從來沒有過任何的暗示或是明示所以這個其實任何的環評開發單位他只要做得好環境影響評估他速度夠快到環評委員會能夠過得了也說服得了地方其實他就會比較容易過所以這個是這樣的道理所以我並沒有說一個限制\n\n20\n00:06:48,823 --> 00:07:06,002\n所以委員說東石是東石的案例協和電廠其實這個不是揭弊因為其實根據法令它是跟那個土壤土屋是無關的那現在呢因為我接受到委員的一些爆料所以我們就組成一個專案小組看當時他有沒有隱匿這個事情的確現在正在查核當中\n\n21\n00:07:06,522 --> 00:07:31,155\n好那這個案子我希望你們繼續去查核如果當時在環評過程當中有隱匿而你們的環評的主席包括委員通通都沒有發現或去忽視這一些團體所指出來的這些原因我覺得你們應該要檢討好不好這個案子也應該要注意另外一個是台東陸域封店這一個案子這個現在在網路上有很多的討論台東這個部長有去過吧\n\n22\n00:07:34,646 --> 00:07:39,010\n我去過台東但是不知道那個地方有放那麼多風氣台東的海岸線其實非常的漂亮所以他現在要把它種滿的這個風力發電就是五十幾座這個引發非常大的一個批評那這件事情我也很好奇環境部在這當中你們又要扮演什麼樣的角色\n\n23\n00:07:57,446 --> 00:08:26,753\n在這件事情當中是地方的角色還是你中央有角色完全是看台東縣政府還是環境部你們會在這件事情上面就是給予意見包委員其實任何的風機陸域跟海域都是要環境部要審核的所以他目前他想要開發那他經過他的程序送到我們那個網站有一個評核他報告書都還沒有送進來還在意見徵詢的階段所以其實那天其實我自己看到那個狀況因為我過去也去看過日本的風機他們大概要500公尺以上\n\n24\n00:08:27,213 --> 00:08:44,822\n所以這次其實引發台東鄉親的疑慮我們也很重視所以我才提出我的看法出來所以我要提醒部長就是說像台東陸域封店我肯定你有餘地時間表達自己的看法但是在其他的環評案件我覺得你的看法\n\n25\n00:08:45,382 --> 00:09:13,491\n並沒有像這一個案件就是這麼勇於的直接表達出來我是覺得作為環境部部長其實你有你的原則你有你的底線你有你的看法這個是我們對你的期待因為你來自民間你沒有包袱那這樣子我覺得我們整個的環境部扮演的角色才可以更公平公正而且可以適度的去節制像經濟部有一些不當的開發案在你們的守護底下我們的環境才可以永續這個是我們對你的期待\n\n26\n00:09:15,071 --> 00:09:24,836\n那最後我要問一個就是有關於這個今天有一個議題就是環境部你們現在在針對空品的部分對於學校或誘託場所你們現在的補助坦白講你們那個給的點值給的獎勵真的金額很低我不知道部長自己知不知道你們的這個鼓勵呢最高35萬點換算成台幣大概只有3,500就是在補助這些學校\n\n27\n00:09:45,008 --> 00:10:06,465\n是金額很低那像台北市他們去補助這個托嬰他一次就兩萬塊那所以這個部分是不是環境部我是希望你們回去檢討就是說我們對於這一些孩子的場所你們用獎勵的方式鼓勵大家就是來做自主的管理標章這個我很認同但是你們的獎勵\n\n28\n00:10:08,407 --> 00:10:23,579\n錢也給得太少現在物價通膨3500是可以做什麼3500真的是非常杯水車薪這個部分我希望你們可以去研議那另外一個今天教育部也有來就是我要提醒這個教育部這個教育部代表請上來你們現在針對這個改善幼兒園或是學校的部分你們有一個\n\n29\n00:10:33,846 --> 00:10:51,880\n這個新風換氣的系統但是你們現在補助僅限於彰化跟雲林那這個部分我覺得是太少了因為現在位於污染區的這個學校不是只有集中在彰化跟雲林其他地區也有像嘉義縣市的話他們現在也有四所小學\n\n30\n00:10:52,560 --> 00:11:18,142\n就是他的這個污染的工廠距離他大概就只有500公尺喔那他一樣會對學生造成影響所以這個教育部的代表是不是可以回應喔就是我希望你們可以擴大你們這一個新風換氣的這個系統我覺得對於改善孩子健康是有幫助的是不是未來針對有些縣市他距離這個污染的工廠是比較近的然後一樣有受到影響的學校你們也可以去擴大補助給予他們一些補助可不可以\n\n31\n00:11:22,179 --> 00:11:44,491\n公務員報告那目前部裡面的針對雲林跟彰化縣桌水溪沿岸的部分學校有做補助那這主要是配合行政院整體的桌水溪陽城防治及改善方案那至於嘉義縣市的這些受到工廠可能的影響的學校是否納入這部分我們會配合整體計畫一起來做研議討論\n\n32\n00:11:45,592 --> 00:12:04,998\n那就請你們回去研議因為其實受到衝擊的其實不是只有彰化跟雲梁其他縣市同樣也會有那部長針對你們提高你們的這個獎勵補助你們是不是可以回去研議三千五真的很少因為台北市現在很有錢比我們有錢多了所以我們會再想辦法再擠一下\n\n33\n00:12:05,458 --> 00:12:20,391\n好啊因為隨著物價水準你們應該調高一下你們的補助好不好因為現在物價真的漲得很兇我們預算今年還比較少所以以後還請委員多支持好啦好啦這個該對兒少要大方的你們這個獎勵補助應該要提高好不好好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1015\t1975\t好 謝謝主席 我們是不是有請彭部長來 請部長王委員好部長好 部長我們今天討論這個環境部重要的議題首先我就是要針對之前你們修的這個法就是開發行為要實施還品的這個29條\n27206\t31950\t來跟您做討論那主要是過去會要修正29條有看到台南小二甲的案例這個化整為零還有就是大規模的毀零重電那這些都不需要環評引發社會非常大的一個爭議那我就要請教你你修法完之後這兩個議題有沒有充分解決了第一個是\n51556\t60316\t像小二甲這樣子化整為領的部分在你新通過的法令裡面是不是未來就可以全面性的杜絕\n61918\t84759\t包委員其實目前對於這個農地或濕地或是說山坡地或是造林地其實目前按照現在的這個規定的話是有列入管制的所以小二甲的情況不會再出現不會不會原地的都可以被管制包委員這個都有光電業者都來跟我們抗議所以表示說這個這個環評的是有效因為他們也擔心會阻礙太陽光電的發展好所以表示說這個是有效的好\n85239\t104823\t那在小二甲的這個杜絕的部分化整危險的部分有成效但是有一個部分呢毀零重電我看到你們還是幫經濟部開了綠燈就是之前發生在嘉義縣東石鄉這個台塘林場造地77公頃人工防風零20餘年因為要毀零重電鄉親大幅的抗議跟反彈\n111451\t129094\t那這件事情呢你們當時也說會透過修法來處理結果我看了你們的修法在29條裡面你們還是開了一個綠燈啊只要能源主管機關同意者不在此限那你這有修跟沒修這個完全是一樣的\n129875\t146870\t因為這一些大規模的光電都是經濟部就是默許嘛因為現在缺電嘛所以同意他們開發那你為什麼還在這邊就是你們自己環境部這個你們自己的這個權利就是你們不敢用出來還刻意給這個經濟部一個開綠燈\n152557\t171020\t包委員這個因為這個當時定的定義的是跨部會的協商那其實針對政府核定的這個相關的補助的土地例如說像這個是台湯的土地或是說公有的土地本身就是屬於經由能源主管機關同意的就沒有在我們的管轄的範圍裡面我覺得這個是經濟部主管的這樣的一個修法\n171841\t189685\t本席還是不能同意因為其實各部會各司其職環境部你應該要肩負的就是整個環境的永續你的考量點跟經濟部一定是不一樣的那今天環評的這個權利就在你的手上所以基本上你是應該要用環境部的角度來看待這樣的一個個案\n192146\t210278\t而不是你用整個權力還回去給經濟部經濟部當然是官官相護啊他怎麼可能會去擋自己旗下的這個光電業者的開發所以如果是這樣子你這一個的修法有修等於沒有修啦部長你自己有沒有看到這個問題這一點我是覺得環境部不應該去退讓你看以嘉義縣的這一個它整個是高達77公頃欸這麼大規模整個毀零重電部長如果是你你可以同意嗎\n222698\t229763\t這個對於環境的永續連鄉親都大力的抗議那未來類似這樣的案例只要經濟部同意他一樣照樣通過這個主要是這個地才是屬於台塘的地啊這個是經濟部部長之外主管我知道是他們的地但是這樣大規模違反環境永續的原則然後大規模的去把樹砍掉你知道這些\n247096\t276816\t你要種個一二十年它對整個環境它所帶來的正面的影響是很大的那你今天為了這些光電業者的利益你就整個把它大規模的毀壞我覺得這個部分是你們這次修法上面一個很大的漏洞而且也沒有補起來我希望部長你可以看到這樣子的一個問題你們應該持續去演繹我真的不希望下一個這種大規模的毀零種電的情況在台灣再發生我覺得這個是違反永續的世界潮流的\n277336\t283240\t也違反減碳的精神那接下來我要讓你看一下現在環境部針對幾個環評你們的立場\n286909\t308045\t到底是什麼怎麼看起來這個立場都不太一致像這個基隆協和電廠這個事後被發現這個土地有遭受到污染那你們是事後你們等於是先過環評事後再說我們再來揭弊再來嚴查這樣子是對的嗎環評不是應該是把關在前面嗎\n310059\t325224\t這個部分部長你有什麼意見關於基隆協和電廠其實任何人他想要開發可能開發這個土地或等等他有他自己的意願那他送來我們這邊地方我們是裁判的角色所以我們沒有辦法說你不准給我送過來這個我們是要做的\n325384\t328628\t但是你的環評的決策就很重要通過跟不通過它就是有意義的當它不符合你整個環評的要件的時候你是可以讓它不通過的這個就是環境部我們要你獨立出來升格你一個很重要\n342086\t356503\t你要扮演一個把關的機制但是在這個金融協和電廠我還是看到很抱歉我坦白講這個雖然部長你之前有說你們不是經濟部的經濟部不是大哥你們不是小弟但是在一些關鍵的環評的案件上面\n358646\t381768\t看起來經濟部的主導性還是很強還是你有口難言因為這個是行政院要通過的東西即使是環境部也不能擋就必須順著經濟部的意就是一定是要讓他通過我個人看到是有這樣子的一個感覺就是你是不是即使你貴為部長也有身不由己的地方這個是上面有交辦的應該要過的所以你們也不能擋\n382389\t408423\t好 包委員我擔任環境部長之內我沒有接遇到我的院長給我一個指示這個案要過或不要過我也從來不會跟環評委員說這個要給我過不過從來沒有過任何的暗示或是明示所以這個其實任何的環評開發單位他只要做得好環境影響評估他速度夠快到環評委員會能夠過得了也說服得了地方其實他就會比較容易過所以這個是這樣的道理所以我並沒有說一個限制\n408823\t426002\t所以委員說東石是東石的案例協和電廠其實這個不是揭弊因為其實根據法令它是跟那個土壤土屋是無關的那現在呢因為我接受到委員的一些爆料所以我們就組成一個專案小組看當時他有沒有隱匿這個事情的確現在正在查核當中\n426522\t451155\t好 那這個案子我希望你們繼續去查核如果當時在環評過程當中有隱匿而你們的環評的主席包括委員通通都沒有發現或去忽視這一些團體所指出來的這些原因我覺得你們應該要檢討 好不好這個案子也應該要注意另外一個是台東陸域封店這一個案子 這個現在在網路上有很多的討論台東這個部長有去過吧\n454646\t459010\t我去過台東 但是不知道那個地方有放那麼多風氣台東的海岸線其實非常的漂亮所以他現在要把它種滿的這個風力發電就是五十幾座這個引發非常大的一個批評那這件事情我也很好奇環境部在這當中你們又要扮演什麼樣的角色\n477446\t506753\t在這件事情當中是地方的角色還是你中央有角色完全是看台東縣政府還是環境部你們會在這件事情上面就是給予意見包委員其實任何的風機陸域跟海域都是要環境部要審核的所以他目前他想要開發那他經過他的程序送到我們那個網站有一個評核他報告書都還沒有送進來還在意見徵詢的階段所以其實那天其實我自己看到那個狀況因為我過去也去看過日本的風機他們大概要500公尺以上\n507213\t524822\t所以這次其實引發台東鄉親的疑慮我們也很重視所以我才提出我的看法出來所以我要提醒部長就是說像台東陸域封店我肯定你有餘地時間表達自己的看法但是在其他的環評案件我覺得你的看法\n525382\t553491\t並沒有像這一個案件就是這麼勇於的直接表達出來我是覺得作為環境部部長其實你有你的原則你有你的底線你有你的看法這個是我們對你的期待因為你來自民間你沒有包袱那這樣子我覺得我們整個的環境部扮演的角色才可以更公平公正而且可以適度的去節制像經濟部有一些不當的開發案在你們的守護底下我們的環境才可以永續這個是我們對你的期待\n555071\t564836\t那最後我要問一個就是有關於這個今天有一個議題就是環境部你們現在在針對空品的部分對於學校或誘託場所你們現在的補助坦白講你們那個給的點值給的獎勵真的金額很低我不知道部長自己知不知道你們的這個鼓勵呢最高35萬點換算成台幣大概只有3,500就是在補助這些學校\n585008\t606465\t是金額很低那像台北市他們去補助這個托嬰他一次就兩萬塊那所以這個部分是不是環境部我是希望你們回去檢討就是說我們對於這一些孩子的場所你們用獎勵的方式鼓勵大家就是來做自主的管理標章這個我很認同但是你們的獎勵\n608407\t623579\t錢也給得太少 現在物價通膨 3500是可以做什麼 3500真的是非常杯水車薪這個部分我希望你們可以去研議那另外一個今天教育部也有來 就是我要提醒這個教育部這個教育部代表請上來你們現在針對這個改善幼兒園或是學校的部分 你們有一個\n633846\t651880\t這個新風換氣的系統但是你們現在補助僅限於彰化跟雲林那這個部分我覺得是太少了因為現在位於污染區的這個學校不是只有集中在彰化跟雲林其他地區也有像嘉義縣市的話他們現在也有四所小學\n652560\t678142\t就是他的這個污染的工廠距離他大概就只有500公尺喔那他一樣會對學生造成影響所以這個教育部的代表是不是可以回應喔就是我希望你們可以擴大你們這一個新風換氣的這個系統我覺得對於改善孩子健康是有幫助的是不是未來針對有些縣市他距離這個污染的工廠是比較近的然後一樣有受到影響的學校你們也可以去擴大補助給予他們一些補助可不可以\n682179\t704491\t公務員報告 那目前部裡面的針對雲林跟彰化縣桌水溪沿岸的部分學校有做補助那這主要是配合行政院整體的桌水溪陽城防治及改善方案那至於嘉義縣市的這些受到工廠可能的影響的學校是否納入這部分我們會配合整體計畫一起來做研議討論\n705592\t724998\t那就請你們回去研議因為其實受到衝擊的其實不是只有彰化跟雲梁其他縣市同樣也會有那部長針對你們提高你們的這個獎勵補助你們是不是可以回去研議三千五真的很少因為台北市現在很有錢比我們有錢多了所以我們會再想辦法再擠一下\n725458\t740391\t好啊因為隨著物價水準你們應該調高一下你們的補助好不好因為現在物價真的漲得很兇我們預算今年還比較少所以以後還請委員多支持好啦好啦這個該對兒少要大方的你們這個獎勵補助應該要提高好不好好謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 我們是不是有請彭部長來 請部長王委員好部長好 部長我們今天討論這個環境部重要的議題首先我就是要針對之前你們修的這個法就是開發行為要實施還品的這個29條\n來跟您做討論那主要是過去會要修正29條有看到台南小二甲的案例這個化整為零還有就是大規模的毀零重電那這些都不需要環評引發社會非常大的一個爭議那我就要請教你你修法完之後這兩個議題有沒有充分解決了第一個是\n像小二甲這樣子化整為領的部分在你新通過的法令裡面是不是未來就可以全面性的杜絕\n包委員其實目前對於這個農地或濕地或是說山坡地或是造林地其實目前按照現在的這個規定的話是有列入管制的所以小二甲的情況不會再出現不會不會原地的都可以被管制包委員這個都有光電業者都來跟我們抗議所以表示說這個這個環評的是有效因為他們也擔心會阻礙太陽光電的發展好所以表示說這個是有效的好\n那在小二甲的這個杜絕的部分化整危險的部分有成效但是有一個部分呢毀零重電我看到你們還是幫經濟部開了綠燈就是之前發生在嘉義縣東石鄉這個台塘林場造地77公頃人工防風零20餘年因為要毀零重電鄉親大幅的抗議跟反彈\n那這件事情呢你們當時也說會透過修法來處理結果我看了你們的修法在29條裡面你們還是開了一個綠燈啊只要能源主管機關同意者不在此限那你這有修跟沒修這個完全是一樣的\n因為這一些大規模的光電都是經濟部就是默許嘛因為現在缺電嘛所以同意他們開發那你為什麼還在這邊就是你們自己環境部這個你們自己的這個權利就是你們不敢用出來還刻意給這個經濟部一個開綠燈\n包委員這個因為這個當時定的定義的是跨部會的協商那其實針對政府核定的這個相關的補助的土地例如說像這個是台湯的土地或是說公有的土地本身就是屬於經由能源主管機關同意的就沒有在我們的管轄的範圍裡面我覺得這個是經濟部主管的這樣的一個修法\n本席還是不能同意因為其實各部會各司其職環境部你應該要肩負的就是整個環境的永續你的考量點跟經濟部一定是不一樣的那今天環評的這個權利就在你的手上所以基本上你是應該要用環境部的角度來看待這樣的一個個案\n而不是你用整個權力還回去給經濟部經濟部當然是官官相護啊他怎麼可能會去擋自己旗下的這個光電業者的開發所以如果是這樣子你這一個的修法有修等於沒有修啦部長你自己有沒有看到這個問題這一點我是覺得環境部不應該去退讓你看以嘉義縣的這一個它整個是高達77公頃欸這麼大規模整個毀零重電部長如果是你你可以同意嗎\n這個對於環境的永續連鄉親都大力的抗議那未來類似這樣的案例只要經濟部同意他一樣照樣通過這個主要是這個地才是屬於台塘的地啊這個是經濟部部長之外主管我知道是他們的地但是這樣大規模違反環境永續的原則然後大規模的去把樹砍掉你知道這些\n你要種個一二十年它對整個環境它所帶來的正面的影響是很大的那你今天為了這些光電業者的利益你就整個把它大規模的毀壞我覺得這個部分是你們這次修法上面一個很大的漏洞而且也沒有補起來我希望部長你可以看到這樣子的一個問題你們應該持續去演繹我真的不希望下一個這種大規模的毀零種電的情況在台灣再發生我覺得這個是違反永續的世界潮流的\n也違反減碳的精神那接下來我要讓你看一下現在環境部針對幾個環評你們的立場\n到底是什麼怎麼看起來這個立場都不太一致像這個基隆協和電廠這個事後被發現這個土地有遭受到污染那你們是事後你們等於是先過環評事後再說我們再來揭弊再來嚴查這樣子是對的嗎環評不是應該是把關在前面嗎\n這個部分部長你有什麼意見關於基隆協和電廠其實任何人他想要開發可能開發這個土地或等等他有他自己的意願那他送來我們這邊地方我們是裁判的角色所以我們沒有辦法說你不准給我送過來這個我們是要做的\n但是你的環評的決策就很重要通過跟不通過它就是有意義的當它不符合你整個環評的要件的時候你是可以讓它不通過的這個就是環境部我們要你獨立出來升格你一個很重要\n你要扮演一個把關的機制但是在這個金融協和電廠我還是看到很抱歉我坦白講這個雖然部長你之前有說你們不是經濟部的經濟部不是大哥你們不是小弟但是在一些關鍵的環評的案件上面\n看起來經濟部的主導性還是很強還是你有口難言因為這個是行政院要通過的東西即使是環境部也不能擋就必須順著經濟部的意就是一定是要讓他通過我個人看到是有這樣子的一個感覺就是你是不是即使你貴為部長也有身不由己的地方這個是上面有交辦的應該要過的所以你們也不能擋\n好 包委員我擔任環境部長之內我沒有接遇到我的院長給我一個指示這個案要過或不要過我也從來不會跟環評委員說這個要給我過不過從來沒有過任何的暗示或是明示所以這個其實任何的環評開發單位他只要做得好環境影響評估他速度夠快到環評委員會能夠過得了也說服得了地方其實他就會比較容易過所以這個是這樣的道理所以我並沒有說一個限制\n所以委員說東石是東石的案例協和電廠其實這個不是揭弊因為其實根據法令它是跟那個土壤土屋是無關的那現在呢因為我接受到委員的一些爆料所以我們就組成一個專案小組看當時他有沒有隱匿這個事情的確現在正在查核當中\n好 那這個案子我希望你們繼續去查核如果當時在環評過程當中有隱匿而你們的環評的主席包括委員通通都沒有發現或去忽視這一些團體所指出來的這些原因我覺得你們應該要檢討 好不好這個案子也應該要注意另外一個是台東陸域封店這一個案子 這個現在在網路上有很多的討論台東這個部長有去過吧\n我去過台東 但是不知道那個地方有放那麼多風氣台東的海岸線其實非常的漂亮所以他現在要把它種滿的這個風力發電就是五十幾座這個引發非常大的一個批評那這件事情我也很好奇環境部在這當中你們又要扮演什麼樣的角色\n在這件事情當中是地方的角色還是你中央有角色完全是看台東縣政府還是環境部你們會在這件事情上面就是給予意見包委員其實任何的風機陸域跟海域都是要環境部要審核的所以他目前他想要開發那他經過他的程序送到我們那個網站有一個評核他報告書都還沒有送進來還在意見徵詢的階段所以其實那天其實我自己看到那個狀況因為我過去也去看過日本的風機他們大概要500公尺以上\n所以這次其實引發台東鄉親的疑慮我們也很重視所以我才提出我的看法出來所以我要提醒部長就是說像台東陸域封店我肯定你有餘地時間表達自己的看法但是在其他的環評案件我覺得你的看法\n並沒有像這一個案件就是這麼勇於的直接表達出來我是覺得作為環境部部長其實你有你的原則你有你的底線你有你的看法這個是我們對你的期待因為你來自民間你沒有包袱那這樣子我覺得我們整個的環境部扮演的角色才可以更公平公正而且可以適度的去節制像經濟部有一些不當的開發案在你們的守護底下我們的環境才可以永續這個是我們對你的期待\n那最後我要問一個就是有關於這個今天有一個議題就是環境部你們現在在針對空品的部分對於學校或誘託場所你們現在的補助坦白講你們那個給的點值給的獎勵真的金額很低我不知道部長自己知不知道你們的這個鼓勵呢最高35萬點換算成台幣大概只有3,500就是在補助這些學校\n是金額很低那像台北市他們去補助這個托嬰他一次就兩萬塊那所以這個部分是不是環境部我是希望你們回去檢討就是說我們對於這一些孩子的場所你們用獎勵的方式鼓勵大家就是來做自主的管理標章這個我很認同但是你們的獎勵\n錢也給得太少 現在物價通膨 3500是可以做什麼 3500真的是非常杯水車薪這個部分我希望你們可以去研議那另外一個今天教育部也有來 就是我要提醒這個教育部這個教育部代表請上來你們現在針對這個改善幼兒園或是學校的部分 你們有一個\n這個新風換氣的系統但是你們現在補助僅限於彰化跟雲林那這個部分我覺得是太少了因為現在位於污染區的這個學校不是只有集中在彰化跟雲林其他地區也有像嘉義縣市的話他們現在也有四所小學\n就是他的這個污染的工廠距離他大概就只有500公尺喔那他一樣會對學生造成影響所以這個教育部的代表是不是可以回應喔就是我希望你們可以擴大你們這一個新風換氣的這個系統我覺得對於改善孩子健康是有幫助的是不是未來針對有些縣市他距離這個污染的工廠是比較近的然後一樣有受到影響的學校你們也可以去擴大補助給予他們一些補助可不可以\n公務員報告 那目前部裡面的針對雲林跟彰化縣桌水溪沿岸的部分學校有做補助那這主要是配合行政院整體的桌水溪陽城防治及改善方案那至於嘉義縣市的這些受到工廠可能的影響的學校是否納入這部分我們會配合整體計畫一起來做研議討論\n那就請你們回去研議因為其實受到衝擊的其實不是只有彰化跟雲梁其他縣市同樣也會有那部長針對你們提高你們的這個獎勵補助你們是不是可以回去研議三千五真的很少因為台北市現在很有錢比我們有錢多了所以我們會再想辦法再擠一下\n好啊因為隨著物價水準你們應該調高一下你們的補助好不好因為現在物價真的漲得很兇我們預算今年還比較少所以以後還請委員多支持好啦好啦這個該對兒少要大方的你們這個獎勵補助應該要提高好不好好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.015 --> 00:01.975\n好謝謝主席我們是不是有請彭部長來請部長王委員好部長好部長我們今天討論這個環境部重要的議題首先我就是要針對之前你們修的這個法就是開發行為要實施還品的這個29條\n\n00:27.206 --> 00:31.950\n來跟您做討論那主要是過去會要修正29條有看到台南小二甲的案例這個化整為零還有就是大規模的毀零重電那這些都不需要環評引發社會非常大的一個爭議那我就要請教你你修法完之後這兩個議題有沒有充分解決了第一個是\n\n00:51.556 --> 01:00.316\n像小二甲這樣子化整為領的部分在你新通過的法令裡面是不是未來就可以全面性的杜絕\n\n01:01.918 --> 01:24.759\n包委員其實目前對於這個農地或濕地或是說山坡地或是造林地其實目前按照現在的這個規定的話是有列入管制的所以小二甲的情況不會再出現不會不會原地的都可以被管制包委員這個都有光電業者都來跟我們抗議所以表示說這個這個環評的是有效因為他們也擔心會阻礙太陽光電的發展好所以表示說這個是有效的好\n\n01:25.239 --> 01:44.823\n那在小二甲的這個杜絕的部分化整危險的部分有成效但是有一個部分呢毀零重電我看到你們還是幫經濟部開了綠燈就是之前發生在嘉義縣東石鄉這個台塘林場造地77公頃人工防風零20餘年因為要毀零重電鄉親大幅的抗議跟反彈\n\n01:51.451 --> 02:09.094\n那這件事情呢你們當時也說會透過修法來處理結果我看了你們的修法在29條裡面你們還是開了一個綠燈啊只要能源主管機關同意者不在此限那你這有修跟沒修這個完全是一樣的\n\n02:09.875 --> 02:26.870\n因為這一些大規模的光電都是經濟部就是默許嘛因為現在缺電嘛所以同意他們開發那你為什麼還在這邊就是你們自己環境部這個你們自己的這個權利就是你們不敢用出來還刻意給這個經濟部一個開綠燈\n\n02:32.557 --> 02:51.020\n包委員這個因為這個當時定的定義的是跨部會的協商那其實針對政府核定的這個相關的補助的土地例如說像這個是台湯的土地或是說公有的土地本身就是屬於經由能源主管機關同意的就沒有在我們的管轄的範圍裡面我覺得這個是經濟部主管的這樣的一個修法\n\n02:51.841 --> 03:09.685\n本席還是不能同意因為其實各部會各司其職環境部你應該要肩負的就是整個環境的永續你的考量點跟經濟部一定是不一樣的那今天環評的這個權利就在你的手上所以基本上你是應該要用環境部的角度來看待這樣的一個個案\n\n03:12.146 --> 03:30.278\n而不是你用整個權力還回去給經濟部經濟部當然是官官相護啊他怎麼可能會去擋自己旗下的這個光電業者的開發所以如果是這樣子你這一個的修法有修等於沒有修啦部長你自己有沒有看到這個問題這一點我是覺得環境部不應該去退讓你看以嘉義縣的這一個它整個是高達77公頃欸這麼大規模整個毀零重電部長如果是你你可以同意嗎\n\n03:42.698 --> 03:49.763\n這個對於環境的永續連鄉親都大力的抗議那未來類似這樣的案例只要經濟部同意他一樣照樣通過這個主要是這個地才是屬於台塘的地啊這個是經濟部部長之外主管我知道是他們的地但是這樣大規模違反環境永續的原則然後大規模的去把樹砍掉你知道這些\n\n04:07.096 --> 04:36.816\n你要種個一二十年它對整個環境它所帶來的正面的影響是很大的那你今天為了這些光電業者的利益你就整個把它大規模的毀壞我覺得這個部分是你們這次修法上面一個很大的漏洞而且也沒有補起來我希望部長你可以看到這樣子的一個問題你們應該持續去演繹我真的不希望下一個這種大規模的毀零種電的情況在台灣再發生我覺得這個是違反永續的世界潮流的\n\n04:37.336 --> 04:43.240\n也違反減碳的精神那接下來我要讓你看一下現在環境部針對幾個環評你們的立場\n\n04:46.909 --> 05:08.045\n到底是什麼怎麼看起來這個立場都不太一致像這個基隆協和電廠這個事後被發現這個土地有遭受到污染那你們是事後你們等於是先過環評事後再說我們再來揭弊再來嚴查這樣子是對的嗎環評不是應該是把關在前面嗎\n\n05:10.059 --> 05:25.224\n這個部分部長你有什麼意見關於基隆協和電廠其實任何人他想要開發可能開發這個土地或等等他有他自己的意願那他送來我們這邊地方我們是裁判的角色所以我們沒有辦法說你不准給我送過來這個我們是要做的\n\n05:25.384 --> 05:28.628\n但是你的環評的決策就很重要通過跟不通過它就是有意義的當它不符合你整個環評的要件的時候你是可以讓它不通過的這個就是環境部我們要你獨立出來升格你一個很重要\n\n05:42.086 --> 05:56.503\n你要扮演一個把關的機制但是在這個金融協和電廠我還是看到很抱歉我坦白講這個雖然部長你之前有說你們不是經濟部的經濟部不是大哥你們不是小弟但是在一些關鍵的環評的案件上面\n\n05:58.646 --> 06:21.768\n看起來經濟部的主導性還是很強還是你有口難言因為這個是行政院要通過的東西即使是環境部也不能擋就必須順著經濟部的意就是一定是要讓他通過我個人看到是有這樣子的一個感覺就是你是不是即使你貴為部長也有身不由己的地方這個是上面有交辦的應該要過的所以你們也不能擋\n\n06:22.389 --> 06:48.423\n好包委員我擔任環境部長之內我沒有接遇到我的院長給我一個指示這個案要過或不要過我也從來不會跟環評委員說這個要給我過不過從來沒有過任何的暗示或是明示所以這個其實任何的環評開發單位他只要做得好環境影響評估他速度夠快到環評委員會能夠過得了也說服得了地方其實他就會比較容易過所以這個是這樣的道理所以我並沒有說一個限制\n\n06:48.823 --> 07:06.002\n所以委員說東石是東石的案例協和電廠其實這個不是揭弊因為其實根據法令它是跟那個土壤土屋是無關的那現在呢因為我接受到委員的一些爆料所以我們就組成一個專案小組看當時他有沒有隱匿這個事情的確現在正在查核當中\n\n07:06.522 --> 07:31.155\n好那這個案子我希望你們繼續去查核如果當時在環評過程當中有隱匿而你們的環評的主席包括委員通通都沒有發現或去忽視這一些團體所指出來的這些原因我覺得你們應該要檢討好不好這個案子也應該要注意另外一個是台東陸域封店這一個案子這個現在在網路上有很多的討論台東這個部長有去過吧\n\n07:34.646 --> 07:39.010\n我去過台東但是不知道那個地方有放那麼多風氣台東的海岸線其實非常的漂亮所以他現在要把它種滿的這個風力發電就是五十幾座這個引發非常大的一個批評那這件事情我也很好奇環境部在這當中你們又要扮演什麼樣的角色\n\n07:57.446 --> 08:26.753\n在這件事情當中是地方的角色還是你中央有角色完全是看台東縣政府還是環境部你們會在這件事情上面就是給予意見包委員其實任何的風機陸域跟海域都是要環境部要審核的所以他目前他想要開發那他經過他的程序送到我們那個網站有一個評核他報告書都還沒有送進來還在意見徵詢的階段所以其實那天其實我自己看到那個狀況因為我過去也去看過日本的風機他們大概要500公尺以上\n\n08:27.213 --> 08:44.822\n所以這次其實引發台東鄉親的疑慮我們也很重視所以我才提出我的看法出來所以我要提醒部長就是說像台東陸域封店我肯定你有餘地時間表達自己的看法但是在其他的環評案件我覺得你的看法\n\n08:45.382 --> 09:13.491\n並沒有像這一個案件就是這麼勇於的直接表達出來我是覺得作為環境部部長其實你有你的原則你有你的底線你有你的看法這個是我們對你的期待因為你來自民間你沒有包袱那這樣子我覺得我們整個的環境部扮演的角色才可以更公平公正而且可以適度的去節制像經濟部有一些不當的開發案在你們的守護底下我們的環境才可以永續這個是我們對你的期待\n\n09:15.071 --> 09:24.836\n那最後我要問一個就是有關於這個今天有一個議題就是環境部你們現在在針對空品的部分對於學校或誘託場所你們現在的補助坦白講你們那個給的點值給的獎勵真的金額很低我不知道部長自己知不知道你們的這個鼓勵呢最高35萬點換算成台幣大概只有3,500就是在補助這些學校\n\n09:45.008 --> 10:06.465\n是金額很低那像台北市他們去補助這個托嬰他一次就兩萬塊那所以這個部分是不是環境部我是希望你們回去檢討就是說我們對於這一些孩子的場所你們用獎勵的方式鼓勵大家就是來做自主的管理標章這個我很認同但是你們的獎勵\n\n10:08.407 --> 10:23.579\n錢也給得太少現在物價通膨3500是可以做什麼3500真的是非常杯水車薪這個部分我希望你們可以去研議那另外一個今天教育部也有來就是我要提醒這個教育部這個教育部代表請上來你們現在針對這個改善幼兒園或是學校的部分你們有一個\n\n10:33.846 --> 10:51.880\n這個新風換氣的系統但是你們現在補助僅限於彰化跟雲林那這個部分我覺得是太少了因為現在位於污染區的這個學校不是只有集中在彰化跟雲林其他地區也有像嘉義縣市的話他們現在也有四所小學\n\n10:52.560 --> 11:18.142\n就是他的這個污染的工廠距離他大概就只有500公尺喔那他一樣會對學生造成影響所以這個教育部的代表是不是可以回應喔就是我希望你們可以擴大你們這一個新風換氣的這個系統我覺得對於改善孩子健康是有幫助的是不是未來針對有些縣市他距離這個污染的工廠是比較近的然後一樣有受到影響的學校你們也可以去擴大補助給予他們一些補助可不可以\n\n11:22.179 --> 11:44.491\n公務員報告那目前部裡面的針對雲林跟彰化縣桌水溪沿岸的部分學校有做補助那這主要是配合行政院整體的桌水溪陽城防治及改善方案那至於嘉義縣市的這些受到工廠可能的影響的學校是否納入這部分我們會配合整體計畫一起來做研議討論\n\n11:45.592 --> 12:04.998\n那就請你們回去研議因為其實受到衝擊的其實不是只有彰化跟雲梁其他縣市同樣也會有那部長針對你們提高你們的這個獎勵補助你們是不是可以回去研議三千五真的很少因為台北市現在很有錢比我們有錢多了所以我們會再想辦法再擠一下\n\n12:05.458 --> 12:20.391\n好啊因為隨著物價水準你們應該調高一下你們的補助好不好因為現在物價真的漲得很兇我們預算今年還比較少所以以後還請委員多支持好啦好啦這個該對兒少要大方的你們這個獎勵補助應該要提高好不好好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.015,"end":1.975,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們是不是有請彭部長來 請部長王委員好部長好 部長我們今天討論這個環境部重要的議題首先我就是要針對之前你們修的這個法就是開發行為要實施還品的這個29條"},{"start":27.206,"end":31.95,"text":"來跟您做討論那主要是過去會要修正29條有看到台南小二甲的案例這個化整為零還有就是大規模的毀零重電那這些都不需要環評引發社會非常大的一個爭議那我就要請教你你修法完之後這兩個議題有沒有充分解決了第一個是"},{"start":51.556,"end":60.316,"text":"像小二甲這樣子化整為領的部分在你新通過的法令裡面是不是未來就可以全面性的杜絕"},{"start":61.918,"end":84.759,"text":"包委員其實目前對於這個農地或濕地或是說山坡地或是造林地其實目前按照現在的這個規定的話是有列入管制的所以小二甲的情況不會再出現不會不會原地的都可以被管制包委員這個都有光電業者都來跟我們抗議所以表示說這個這個環評的是有效因為他們也擔心會阻礙太陽光電的發展好所以表示說這個是有效的好"},{"start":85.239,"end":104.823,"text":"那在小二甲的這個杜絕的部分化整危險的部分有成效但是有一個部分呢毀零重電我看到你們還是幫經濟部開了綠燈就是之前發生在嘉義縣東石鄉這個台塘林場造地77公頃人工防風零20餘年因為要毀零重電鄉親大幅的抗議跟反彈"},{"start":111.451,"end":129.094,"text":"那這件事情呢你們當時也說會透過修法來處理結果我看了你們的修法在29條裡面你們還是開了一個綠燈啊只要能源主管機關同意者不在此限那你這有修跟沒修這個完全是一樣的"},{"start":129.875,"end":146.87,"text":"因為這一些大規模的光電都是經濟部就是默許嘛因為現在缺電嘛所以同意他們開發那你為什麼還在這邊就是你們自己環境部這個你們自己的這個權利就是你們不敢用出來還刻意給這個經濟部一個開綠燈"},{"start":152.557,"end":171.02,"text":"包委員這個因為這個當時定的定義的是跨部會的協商那其實針對政府核定的這個相關的補助的土地例如說像這個是台湯的土地或是說公有的土地本身就是屬於經由能源主管機關同意的就沒有在我們的管轄的範圍裡面我覺得這個是經濟部主管的這樣的一個修法"},{"start":171.841,"end":189.685,"text":"本席還是不能同意因為其實各部會各司其職環境部你應該要肩負的就是整個環境的永續你的考量點跟經濟部一定是不一樣的那今天環評的這個權利就在你的手上所以基本上你是應該要用環境部的角度來看待這樣的一個個案"},{"start":192.146,"end":210.278,"text":"而不是你用整個權力還回去給經濟部經濟部當然是官官相護啊他怎麼可能會去擋自己旗下的這個光電業者的開發所以如果是這樣子你這一個的修法有修等於沒有修啦部長你自己有沒有看到這個問題這一點我是覺得環境部不應該去退讓你看以嘉義縣的這一個它整個是高達77公頃欸這麼大規模整個毀零重電部長如果是你你可以同意嗎"},{"start":222.698,"end":229.763,"text":"這個對於環境的永續連鄉親都大力的抗議那未來類似這樣的案例只要經濟部同意他一樣照樣通過這個主要是這個地才是屬於台塘的地啊這個是經濟部部長之外主管我知道是他們的地但是這樣大規模違反環境永續的原則然後大規模的去把樹砍掉你知道這些"},{"start":247.096,"end":276.816,"text":"你要種個一二十年它對整個環境它所帶來的正面的影響是很大的那你今天為了這些光電業者的利益你就整個把它大規模的毀壞我覺得這個部分是你們這次修法上面一個很大的漏洞而且也沒有補起來我希望部長你可以看到這樣子的一個問題你們應該持續去演繹我真的不希望下一個這種大規模的毀零種電的情況在台灣再發生我覺得這個是違反永續的世界潮流的"},{"start":277.336,"end":283.24,"text":"也違反減碳的精神那接下來我要讓你看一下現在環境部針對幾個環評你們的立場"},{"start":286.909,"end":308.045,"text":"到底是什麼怎麼看起來這個立場都不太一致像這個基隆協和電廠這個事後被發現這個土地有遭受到污染那你們是事後你們等於是先過環評事後再說我們再來揭弊再來嚴查這樣子是對的嗎環評不是應該是把關在前面嗎"},{"start":310.059,"end":325.224,"text":"這個部分部長你有什麼意見關於基隆協和電廠其實任何人他想要開發可能開發這個土地或等等他有他自己的意願那他送來我們這邊地方我們是裁判的角色所以我們沒有辦法說你不准給我送過來這個我們是要做的"},{"start":325.384,"end":328.628,"text":"但是你的環評的決策就很重要通過跟不通過它就是有意義的當它不符合你整個環評的要件的時候你是可以讓它不通過的這個就是環境部我們要你獨立出來升格你一個很重要"},{"start":342.086,"end":356.503,"text":"你要扮演一個把關的機制但是在這個金融協和電廠我還是看到很抱歉我坦白講這個雖然部長你之前有說你們不是經濟部的經濟部不是大哥你們不是小弟但是在一些關鍵的環評的案件上面"},{"start":358.646,"end":381.768,"text":"看起來經濟部的主導性還是很強還是你有口難言因為這個是行政院要通過的東西即使是環境部也不能擋就必須順著經濟部的意就是一定是要讓他通過我個人看到是有這樣子的一個感覺就是你是不是即使你貴為部長也有身不由己的地方這個是上面有交辦的應該要過的所以你們也不能擋"},{"start":382.389,"end":408.423,"text":"好 包委員我擔任環境部長之內我沒有接遇到我的院長給我一個指示這個案要過或不要過我也從來不會跟環評委員說這個要給我過不過從來沒有過任何的暗示或是明示所以這個其實任何的環評開發單位他只要做得好環境影響評估他速度夠快到環評委員會能夠過得了也說服得了地方其實他就會比較容易過所以這個是這樣的道理所以我並沒有說一個限制"},{"start":408.823,"end":426.002,"text":"所以委員說東石是東石的案例協和電廠其實這個不是揭弊因為其實根據法令它是跟那個土壤土屋是無關的那現在呢因為我接受到委員的一些爆料所以我們就組成一個專案小組看當時他有沒有隱匿這個事情的確現在正在查核當中"},{"start":426.522,"end":451.155,"text":"好 那這個案子我希望你們繼續去查核如果當時在環評過程當中有隱匿而你們的環評的主席包括委員通通都沒有發現或去忽視這一些團體所指出來的這些原因我覺得你們應該要檢討 好不好這個案子也應該要注意另外一個是台東陸域封店這一個案子 這個現在在網路上有很多的討論台東這個部長有去過吧"},{"start":454.646,"end":459.01,"text":"我去過台東 但是不知道那個地方有放那麼多風氣台東的海岸線其實非常的漂亮所以他現在要把它種滿的這個風力發電就是五十幾座這個引發非常大的一個批評那這件事情我也很好奇環境部在這當中你們又要扮演什麼樣的角色"},{"start":477.446,"end":506.753,"text":"在這件事情當中是地方的角色還是你中央有角色完全是看台東縣政府還是環境部你們會在這件事情上面就是給予意見包委員其實任何的風機陸域跟海域都是要環境部要審核的所以他目前他想要開發那他經過他的程序送到我們那個網站有一個評核他報告書都還沒有送進來還在意見徵詢的階段所以其實那天其實我自己看到那個狀況因為我過去也去看過日本的風機他們大概要500公尺以上"},{"start":507.213,"end":524.822,"text":"所以這次其實引發台東鄉親的疑慮我們也很重視所以我才提出我的看法出來所以我要提醒部長就是說像台東陸域封店我肯定你有餘地時間表達自己的看法但是在其他的環評案件我覺得你的看法"},{"start":525.382,"end":553.491,"text":"並沒有像這一個案件就是這麼勇於的直接表達出來我是覺得作為環境部部長其實你有你的原則你有你的底線你有你的看法這個是我們對你的期待因為你來自民間你沒有包袱那這樣子我覺得我們整個的環境部扮演的角色才可以更公平公正而且可以適度的去節制像經濟部有一些不當的開發案在你們的守護底下我們的環境才可以永續這個是我們對你的期待"},{"start":555.071,"end":564.836,"text":"那最後我要問一個就是有關於這個今天有一個議題就是環境部你們現在在針對空品的部分對於學校或誘託場所你們現在的補助坦白講你們那個給的點值給的獎勵真的金額很低我不知道部長自己知不知道你們的這個鼓勵呢最高35萬點換算成台幣大概只有3,500就是在補助這些學校"},{"start":585.008,"end":606.465,"text":"是金額很低那像台北市他們去補助這個托嬰他一次就兩萬塊那所以這個部分是不是環境部我是希望你們回去檢討就是說我們對於這一些孩子的場所你們用獎勵的方式鼓勵大家就是來做自主的管理標章這個我很認同但是你們的獎勵"},{"start":608.407,"end":623.579,"text":"錢也給得太少 現在物價通膨 3500是可以做什麼 3500真的是非常杯水車薪這個部分我希望你們可以去研議那另外一個今天教育部也有來 就是我要提醒這個教育部這個教育部代表請上來你們現在針對這個改善幼兒園或是學校的部分 你們有一個"},{"start":633.846,"end":651.88,"text":"這個新風換氣的系統但是你們現在補助僅限於彰化跟雲林那這個部分我覺得是太少了因為現在位於污染區的這個學校不是只有集中在彰化跟雲林其他地區也有像嘉義縣市的話他們現在也有四所小學"},{"start":652.56,"end":678.142,"text":"就是他的這個污染的工廠距離他大概就只有500公尺喔那他一樣會對學生造成影響所以這個教育部的代表是不是可以回應喔就是我希望你們可以擴大你們這一個新風換氣的這個系統我覺得對於改善孩子健康是有幫助的是不是未來針對有些縣市他距離這個污染的工廠是比較近的然後一樣有受到影響的學校你們也可以去擴大補助給予他們一些補助可不可以"},{"start":682.179,"end":704.491,"text":"公務員報告 那目前部裡面的針對雲林跟彰化縣桌水溪沿岸的部分學校有做補助那這主要是配合行政院整體的桌水溪陽城防治及改善方案那至於嘉義縣市的這些受到工廠可能的影響的學校是否納入這部分我們會配合整體計畫一起來做研議討論"},{"start":705.592,"end":724.998,"text":"那就請你們回去研議因為其實受到衝擊的其實不是只有彰化跟雲梁其他縣市同樣也會有那部長針對你們提高你們的這個獎勵補助你們是不是可以回去研議三千五真的很少因為台北市現在很有錢比我們有錢多了所以我們會再想辦法再擠一下"},{"start":725.458,"end":740.391,"text":"好啊因為隨著物價水準你們應該調高一下你們的補助好不好因為現在物價真的漲得很兇我們預算今年還比較少所以以後還請委員多支持好啦好啦這個該對兒少要大方的你們這個獎勵補助應該要提高好不好好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":404,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（9時55分）謝謝主席。有請彭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。我們今天討論與環境部有關的重要議題，首先我要針對之前你們所預告的「開發行為應實施環評影響評估細目及範圍認定標準」部分條文修正草案的第二十九條來跟您討論。之所以要修正第二十九條，是因為臺南小二甲化整為零，大規模毀林種電，且不需要環評，引發非常大的社會爭議。所以我要請教你，在修法完之後，這兩個議題是否充分解決？像小二甲化整為零的狀況，未來在環境部新通過的法令裡，是不是可以全面性杜絕？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，目前對於農地、溼地或山坡地、造林地，都按照現在的規定列入管制。"],["王委員育敏：所以小二甲的情況不會再出現？"],["彭部長啓明：不會。"],["王委員育敏：鹽地都可以被管制？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，光電業者都來跟我們抗議了，代表納入環評是有效的，因為他們擔心會阻礙太陽光電的發展，就代表這是有效的。"],["王委員育敏：所以在杜絕小二甲化整為零的問題上有成效，但是毀林種電呢？我看到你們還是幫經濟部開了綠燈！像嘉義縣東石鄉的台糖林場造地77公頃，人工防風林做了二十餘年，卻因為要種電而毀林，引起鄉親的大幅抗議跟反彈！你們當時說這件事會透過修法來處理，結果我看了第二十九條的修正，你們還是開了綠燈，只要經能源主管機關同意者不在此限，所以有修跟沒修完全是一樣的！這些大規模光電都是經濟部所默許的，因為現在缺電，所以同意他們開發，為什麼環境部不敢用自己的權力，還刻意給經濟部開綠燈？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個定義當時經過跨部會協商，不過經政府核定的相關補助的土地，例如台糖土地或公有土地，本身即屬經由能源主管機關同意的，所以就不在我們的管轄範圍內，因為這是經濟部主管的。"],["王委員育敏：本席還是不能同意這樣的修法！各部會各司其職，環境部所肩負的就是整個環境的永續，所以你的考量點跟經濟部一定不一樣！今天環評的權力就在你手上，因此，應該以環境部的角度來看待這樣的個案，而不是把權力還給經濟部！經濟部當然是官官相護，怎麼可能會擋自己旗下光電業者的開發？這樣的話，這條的修法有修等於沒有修！部長，你自己有沒有看到這問題？我覺得環境部不應該退讓！以嘉義縣這塊土地來說，高達七十七公頃林地被大規模毀林種電。部長，如果是你的話，你可以同意嗎？對環境永續造成的影響，連鄉親都大力抗議，未來類似這樣的案例，只要經濟部同意就會照樣通過。"],["彭部長啓明：主要是因為這塊地是屬於台糖的地，經濟部是目的事業主管機關……"],["王委員育敏：我知道是他們的地，但大規模違反環境永續原則、大規模把樹砍掉，這些樹要種上一、二十年，對整個環境所帶來的正面影響是很大的！但今天為了光電業者的利益，就整個大規模毀壞，我覺得這是你們這次修法上一個很大的漏洞，而且沒有補起來！我希望部長可以看到問題，且應該持續研議，我真的不希望下一個大規模毀林種電的情況又在臺灣再次發生，這違反了永續的世界潮流，也違反減碳精神。","接下來我要讓你看，現在環境部針對幾個案件的環評立場到底是什麼？怎麼看起來立場都不太一致？像基隆協和電廠，事後被發現土地遭受污染，你們先過環評，事後再揭弊、再嚴查，這樣子對嗎？環評不是應該在前面把關嗎？這個部分，部長有什麼意見？關於基隆協和電廠。"],["彭部長啓明：其實任何人想要開發土地或等等，有自己的意願，送過來我們這邊，我們只是裁判的角色，沒有辦法不准他們送過來，這是我沒有辦法做的。"],["王委員育敏：我知道，但是你環評的決策就很重要嘛！通過跟不通過要有意義，當不符合環評的要件，你可以讓它不通過，這就是要環境部獨立升格很重要的原因，你要扮演把關的機制。關於基隆協和電廠，我很抱歉要坦白講，雖然部長之前說經濟部不是大哥，你們不是小弟，但是在一些關鍵的環評案件上，看起來經濟部的主導性還是很強，還是你有口難言？因為這是行政院要通過的東西，即使是環境部也不能擋，必須順著經濟部的意思一定要通過？我個人看到是有這樣的感覺，你是不是即使貴為部長也有身不由己的地方？這是上面交辦應該要過，所以你們也不能擋？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我擔任環境部長任內，沒有接到院長給我指示案子要過或不要過，我也從來不會給環評委員任何暗示或是明示，任何的環評開發單位只要做得好，環境影響評估速度夠快，到環評委員會能夠通過，也說服得了地方，就會比較容易過，是這樣的道理，我並沒有限制。東石是東石的案例，協和電廠不是揭弊，其實根據法令，跟土污是無關的，而是接受委員的爆料後，所以我們組成專案小組看當時有沒有隱匿這件事情，現在正在查核當中。"],["王委員育敏：好，這個案子我希望你們繼續查核，如果當時在環評過程有隱匿，而你們環評的主席包括委員，通通都沒有發現或者忽視團體所指出來的原因，我覺得你們應該要檢討，好不好？這個案子應該要注意。","另外是臺東陸域風電這個案子，現在網路上有很多的討論，部長有去過臺東吧？"],["彭部長啓明：我去過臺東，但是不知道地方有蓋那麼多風機。"],["王委員育敏：臺東的海岸線非常的漂亮，現在要把它種滿五十幾座風力發電，引發大量的批評，我很好奇環境部在這件事情當中又要扮演什麼樣的角色，是地方的角色，還是中央的角色？完全是看臺東縣政府，還是環境部會在這件事情上給予意見？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實任何的風機，陸域跟海域都是環境部要審核，目前想要開發，經過程序送到我們網站有一個評核，但它報告書都還沒有送進來，還在意見徵詢的階段，其實我也去看過日本的風機，他們大概要距離500公尺以上，這次引發臺東鄉親的疑慮，我們也很重視，所以我才提出看法。"],["王委員育敏：好，我要提醒部長，像臺東陸域風電，我肯定你勇於第一時間表達自己的看法，但是在其他的環評案件，我覺得你的看法並沒有像這個案件這麼勇於直接表達出來。作為環境部部長，你有你的原則、你有你的底線、你有你的看法，這是我們對你的期待，因為你來自民間沒有包袱，環境部扮演的角色才可以更公平、公正，而且可以適度地節制。像經濟部有一些不當的開發案，在你們的守護底下環境才可以永續，這是我們對你的期待。","最後關於環境部現在針對空品的部分，對於學校或幼托場所的補助，坦白講，你們給的點值、獎勵金額真的很低，我不知道部長知不知道，你們給的鼓勵最高35萬點，換算成臺幣大概只有3,500，補助學校的金額真的很低，像臺北市補助托嬰，一次就2萬塊，所以我希望環境部能回去檢討。對於孩子的場所，你們用的獎勵方式，鼓勵大家做自主的管理標章，這個我很認同，但是你們獎勵的錢給得太少，現在物價通膨，3,500可以做什麼？3,500真的是非常杯水車薪。這個部分，我希望你們可以去研議。","另外今天教育部也有來，我要提醒教育部，教育部代表請上來，你們現在針對改善幼兒園或者是學校，有一個新風換氣的系統，但是補助僅限於彰化跟雲林，我覺得太少，因為現在位於污染區的學校，不是只有集中在彰化跟雲林，其他地區像嘉義縣市也有4所小學，污染的工廠距離他們大概就只有500公尺，一樣會對學生造成影響，教育部的代表是不是可以回應？我希望你們可以擴大新風換氣的系統，我覺得對於改善孩子健康是有幫助的，是不是未來針對有些縣市距離污染的工廠是比較近，一樣有受到影響的學校，你們可以擴大給予他們補助，可不可以？"],["薛專門委員承祐：跟委員報告，目前部裡針對雲林跟彰化縣、濁水溪沿岸的部分學校有補助，主要是配合行政院整體的濁水溪養成防治及改善方案，至於嘉義縣市可能受到工廠影響的學校是否納入，我們會配合整體計畫一起研議、討論。"],["王委員育敏：好，請你們回去研議，因為受到衝擊的不是只有彰化跟雲林，其他縣市同樣也會有。部長，針對提高你們的獎勵補助，是不是可以回去研議？3,500真的很少。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為臺北市現在很有錢，比我們有錢多了，我們會再想辦法再擠一下。"],["王委員育敏：好啊。隨著物價水準你們也該調高一下補助，好不好？因為現在物價真的漲得很兇。"],["彭部長啓明：我們預算今年還比較少，所以以後還請委員多支持。"],["王委員育敏：好啦。對兒少要大方，你們獎勵補助應該要提高，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請盧縣一委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","黃秀芳","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","張啓楷","楊曜","陳瑩","蘇清泉","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":427,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、外交部就「因應美國退出巴黎氣候協定並提出對等關稅，對國內\n產業淨零轉型造成衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、勞動部、教育部、經\n濟部針對「國內校園、賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物管理及防制精進作為」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00007"}}}