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\"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 692.543, \"end\": 692.663, \"score\": 0.683}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"韋\"}, {\"word\": \"爺\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陸\"}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 692.663, \"end\": 692.683, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"齡\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 692.683, \"end\": 692.823, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 692.823, \"end\": 692.863, \"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 692.863, \"end\": 692.883, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,149 --> 00:00:01,351\n林委員上台自信謝謝主席有請林佳龍部長\n\n2\n00:00:22,635 --> 00:00:39,643\n部長早部長在上個禮拜呢這個國民黨的青年軍這個成員叫宋建良的他因為在罷免李昆城委員李昆城委員的這個連署案因為涉嫌偽造文書然後遭到新北地檢署的這個約談那在遺訟復訊的時候呢他帶著這個有納粹符號的這個備章還有手持希特勒的這個著作然後比出這個納粹的這個敬禮的手而手勢引起這個社會的這個嘩然\n\n3\n00:00:49,927 --> 00:00:55,254\n那當然這個德國在台協會呢認為這個行為是非常的無恥喔那以色列駐台代表處也表達了這個嚴重的強烈的這個譴責那這件事情其實呢不單單是對我國的國際形象造成很嚴重的這個衝擊那也影響到我們跟德國還有以色列等國的這個外交的這個邦誼喔\n\n4\n00:01:09,190 --> 00:01:15,933\n那其實我們除了這次的事件之外呢其實像過去其實國內陸續也發生過極其類似就是霧彩國際紅線的這個行為例如前幾年就有某一間這個高中在校慶的時候表演這個就是穿著表演的時候穿著這個納粹的這個服飾然後模仿這個德軍軍衛隊受教業的這個場景那像在2011年的時候其實也有\n\n5\n00:01:38,865 --> 00:01:54,946\n学生在参加国防部的战斗营的时候也是身穿纳税的军服等等所以为了避免类似的情形发生我们外交部对这个部分我们要如何对这些年轻的孩子做一个再教育\n\n6\n00:01:55,286 --> 00:01:59,029\n因為當然我們知道教育部在一些歷史課本有提到關於納粹的過去對人類歷史的一些蹂躪跟一些迫害可是好像還是有些國內的孩子似乎不太了解他們實際上對納粹行為不是那麼的清楚像外交部每次遇到這種狀況的時候都必須要跟外管\n\n7\n00:02:20,446 --> 00:02:43,225\n這個德國或是納粹或是跟國際來做道歉甚至說呼籲國人該怎麼做該要尊重他國的這個文化的這個歷史可是當然他呼籲我本席覺得應該是不足的應該是不足的我們如何要對這些孩子們予以這個教育這部分我們不能一再的道歉跟呼籲而已部長是委員我同意這個\n\n8\n00:02:47,863 --> 00:03:02,698\n對於這個這件事件外交部在第一時間就表達嚴正的譴責我們用這麼重就是嚴正的譴責也是要就是有個機會教育要讓國人也跟國際都了解我們在對於這一個\n\n9\n00:03:05,020 --> 00:03:18,826\n用納稅的符號跟旗幟那麼濫用我們自由法治社會的一個言論的自由受到憲法的保障但是這一些是\n\n10\n00:03:21,047 --> 00:03:42,947\n這個不只是說負面的意義這種對於歷史的無知可能會持續造成傷害所以我們必須要利用這個事件嚴正的譴責另外一方面也是透過我們跟包括很多的活動包括像這個有關於這個\n\n11\n00:03:44,848 --> 00:04:02,193\n納稅大屠殺這樣的一個反思包括舉辦活動包括像Holocaust這些讓更多人的了解除了學校教育要加強以外我們在社會各個層面也必須對於使用納稅的這種過去殘害人類的\n\n12\n00:04:06,494 --> 00:04:16,772\n符號跟旗幟其實是表達絕不容忍也不會就是說讓這樣的事情在台灣就是發展\n\n13\n00:04:19,231 --> 00:04:43,936\n對因為我剛剛有提到了每次發生這個事情外交部就必須要站出來像剛剛部長所提到了就譴責啊那不然就辦一些活動其實我們也必須要讓國人知道就像部長剛才所講的其實言論自由其實它是有界限的那我們有盤點過幾個國家尤其像德國德國它是明文禁止使用就是說\n\n14\n00:04:44,796 --> 00:04:52,539\n有納粹標誌的這些任何的這個物品那再來也禁止穿著這納粹的軍服使用納粹敬禮宣揚納粹主義德國是還是明文禁止不然的話違反者他將以煽動種族仇恨的這個罪名來起訴那法國的話如果你出犯了以上的這些行為的話其實他是有罰款的那奧地利呢甚至呢他是處於一年以上十年以下有期徒刑情節嚴重的等於處於二十年的有期徒刑\n\n15\n00:05:12,088 --> 00:05:32,702\n那澳洲也是一樣他2025年透過的反仇恨犯罪法他最高是可處十二徒刑那泰國曾經也是發現像亞洲的泰國像之前有一個女子團體呢他在彩排的時候穿著納粹的這個萬字圖案的這個衣服那之後呢他還必須要向這個以色列大使來道歉而且呢共同舉辦教育活動像這個部分的話在台灣可能真的就比較少了\n\n16\n00:05:38,356 --> 00:05:56,781\n當這些人他在就像部長所說的也許是無知也許是無知那可是我們要讓他們如何了解像國外的話他其實是一個禁忌耶可是台灣的話不能只有外交部一代的道歉譴責而已那國人也必須要有所教育讓他們知道說\n\n17\n00:05:59,002 --> 00:06:10,658\n其實你已經踩了國際的這個紅線所以這部分的話我在想外交部跟教育部是不是應該共同我們是不是來舉辦一些教育活動讓這些年輕的孩子知道說其實你已經抵觸了這個國際的這個紅線了\n\n18\n00:06:14,322 --> 00:06:41,932\n這是本席的這個建議啦那再來呢我想請教一下就是說在上個月底的時候緬甸呢發生了規模7.7的這個強烈地震我們看到呢有很多的這個官方跟民間的這個單位他有發起了對緬甸地震災區的這個震災的捐款活動那當然要在捐款之前必須要跟這個衛福部社會救助司這邊來申請合法的這個勸募的這個活動本席想請教一下像這些上款\n\n19\n00:06:43,433 --> 00:07:04,758\n到國外去我們有哪個單位在監督嗎請問部長當然因為要勸募必須向衛福部登記有主管機關的監督那如果涉外因為我們外管尤其是如果以我們政府發起的當然我們會嚴格的來落實這些監督那有些民間\n\n20\n00:07:05,898 --> 00:07:17,826\n他們的不管是善款或善刑透過非政府組織或其他的方式他們可能是以實際的行動表達對於這些災害他們的關心跟援助這個部分我們會盡量的來去也要宣導一方面協助同時讓他們了解因為這都涉及到勸募的行為\n\n21\n00:07:36,199 --> 00:07:52,291\n為什麼本席會這麼問像之前我們土耳其發生大政的時候其實有很多善款流到台灣中心去結果後來這個善款到底是如何使用的後來去向不明所以這一次緬甸的\n\n22\n00:07:55,193 --> 00:08:11,842\n雖然發生了大政可是有很多民眾其實有在擔心他捐出去的錢到底有沒有用在重建那會不會說不知情之下甚至會流入軍政府手中呢作為一級的資金等等都有這些聲音出來所以這次緬甸的這個大政我們發現就是說\n\n23\n00:08:13,143 --> 00:08:41,983\n民眾很有疑慮因為大家都很擔心說之前土耳其大政的時候國人有透過這個募資平台來募款那這台灣中心到後來錢到哪裡去了完全不知道國人很擔心這件事情會發生所以我剛才就在提到就是說那部長有提到了如果是政府這邊來辦理的募款也許你們有所可以監督可是民間呢民間的捐款到國外去我們發現好像沒有監督單位耶是\n\n24\n00:08:42,683 --> 00:08:56,824\n其實我們在第一時間除了跟緬甸方面聯繫希望派遣救災人員過去因為也涉及到他們沒有接受那我們就支持民間包括很多的慈善基金會他們進入\n\n25\n00:08:59,487 --> 00:09:24,217\n他們比較有經驗以外其實很多台商這個台商的協會或聯誼會他們也有在地的人脈所以我們就用間接的方式來協助那另外僑委會在第一時間也有跟台商會來聯繫所以這些都是表達我們對於這些就是不管是救災、震災的關懷跟協助那可是呢確實在有一些國家它比較\n\n26\n00:09:25,918 --> 00:09:48,451\n就是比較不上軌道尤其是涉及到這些善款的利用我們也記取過去的經驗我們怎麼樣去實質的幫助到需要幫助的人而不是只是給錢因為錢就是會產生非常執行的問題那在海外有時候啦真的是沒有辦法像國內那麼清楚的去監督到每一筆錢的流向\n\n27\n00:09:49,791 --> 00:10:11,321\n如果我們跟NGO或跟台商會的合作他們至少是一個在台灣算是有一定的代表性的社團這個也能夠達到援助的一個目標但是我們政府任何的捐款都必須要接受嚴格的監督這個是要做一些區別的\n\n28\n00:10:12,815 --> 00:10:29,522\n部長是這樣子喔因為剛剛部長還是在提這對於這個民間單位的這個募款目前說實在聽起來是我們這個監督單位的系統是還沒有建立起來海外喔真的是因為我們多次其實包括在東南亞發生的很多災害過程真的也是很熱\n\n29\n00:10:30,402 --> 00:10:33,484\n這是國人的愛心但是在執行面會有一些落差因為畢竟他那些國家法制比較欠缺會有時候中間人像你在緬甸來講就好幾個政府了所以這次緬甸的捐款國人很有疑慮要錢拿去用在哪裡或者是這個都會造成無法去追蹤\n\n30\n00:10:53,656 --> 00:11:15,095\n所以避免國人的愛心被有心人所利用我想外交部跟有關單位相關單位應該要來建立一個比較有系統的這個管道如何去監督這筆錢否則國人還是有疑慮畢竟土耳其的事情之前也發生了台灣中心大家都還以為是台灣的政府\n\n31\n00:11:15,675 --> 00:11:32,883\n成立的一個因為他用台灣中心實際上後來錢跑到哪裡去了所有的建設也都不知道在哪邊所以這個部分的話我想這部分應該外交部也要來加強跟各個單位來做一個討論這些民間的善款如何有效的被利用好以上謝謝好謝謝韋爺謝謝陸美齡委員上台質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n149\t1351\t林委員上台自信謝謝主席 有請林佳龍部長\n22635\t39643\t部長早 部長在上個禮拜呢這個國民黨的青年軍這個成員叫宋建良的他因為在罷免李昆城委員李昆城委員的這個連署案因為涉嫌偽造文書然後遭到新北地檢署的這個約談那在遺訟復訊的時候呢他帶著這個有納粹符號的這個備章還有手持希特勒的這個著作然後比出這個納粹的這個敬禮的手而手勢引起這個社會的這個嘩然\n49927\t55254\t那當然這個德國在台協會呢認為這個行為是非常的無恥喔那以色列駐台代表處也表達了這個嚴重的強烈的這個譴責那這件事情其實呢不單單是對我國的國際形象造成很嚴重的這個衝擊那也影響到我們跟德國還有以色列等國的這個外交的這個邦誼喔\n69190\t75933\t那其實我們除了這次的事件之外呢其實像過去其實國內陸續也發生過極其類似就是霧彩國際紅線的這個行為例如前幾年就有某一間這個高中在校慶的時候表演這個就是穿著表演的時候穿著這個納粹的這個服飾然後模仿這個德軍軍衛隊受教業的這個場景那像在2011年的時候其實也有\n98865\t114946\t学生在参加国防部的战斗营的时候也是身穿纳税的军服等等所以为了避免类似的情形发生我们外交部对这个部分我们要如何对这些年轻的孩子做一个再教育\n115286\t119029\t因為當然我們知道教育部在一些歷史課本有提到關於納粹的過去對人類歷史的一些蹂躪跟一些迫害可是好像還是有些國內的孩子似乎不太了解他們實際上對納粹行為不是那麼的清楚像外交部每次遇到這種狀況的時候都必須要跟外管\n140446\t163225\t這個德國或是納粹或是跟國際來做道歉甚至說呼籲國人該怎麼做該要尊重他國的這個文化的這個歷史可是當然他呼籲我本席覺得應該是不足的應該是不足的我們如何要對這些孩子們予以這個教育這部分我們不能一再的道歉跟呼籲而已部長是委員我同意這個\n167863\t182698\t對於這個這件事件外交部在第一時間就表達嚴正的譴責我們用這麼重就是嚴正的譴責也是要就是有個機會教育要讓國人也跟國際都了解我們在對於這一個\n185020\t198826\t用納稅的符號跟旗幟那麼濫用我們自由法治社會的一個言論的自由受到憲法的保障但是這一些是\n201047\t222947\t這個不只是說負面的意義這種對於歷史的無知可能會持續造成傷害所以我們必須要利用這個事件嚴正的譴責另外一方面也是透過我們跟包括很多的活動包括像這個有關於這個\n224848\t242193\t納稅大屠殺這樣的一個反思包括舉辦活動包括像Holocaust這些讓更多人的了解除了學校教育要加強以外我們在社會各個層面也必須對於使用納稅的這種過去殘害人類的\n246494\t256772\t符號跟旗幟其實是表達絕不容忍也不會就是說讓這樣的事情在台灣就是發展\n259231\t283936\t對 因為我剛剛有提到了 每次發生這個事情外交部就必須要站出來 像剛剛部長所提到了就譴責啊 那不然就辦一些活動其實我們也必須要讓國人知道 就像部長剛才所講的其實言論自由 其實它是有界限的那我們有盤點過幾個國家 尤其像德國德國它是明文禁止使用 就是說\n284796\t292539\t有納粹標誌的這些任何的這個物品那再來也禁止穿著這納粹的軍服使用納粹敬禮宣揚納粹主義德國是還是明文禁止不然的話違反者他將以煽動種族仇恨的這個罪名來起訴那法國的話如果你出犯了以上的這些行為的話其實他是有罰款的那奧地利呢甚至呢他是處於一年以上十年以下有期徒刑情節嚴重的等於處於二十年的有期徒刑\n312088\t332702\t那澳洲也是一樣他2025年透過的反仇恨犯罪法他最高是可處十二徒刑那泰國曾經也是發現像亞洲的泰國像之前有一個女子團體呢他在彩排的時候穿著納粹的這個萬字圖案的這個衣服那之後呢他還必須要向這個以色列大使來道歉而且呢共同舉辦教育活動像這個部分的話在台灣可能真的就比較少了\n338356\t356781\t當這些人他在就像部長所說的也許是無知也許是無知那可是我們要讓他們如何了解像國外的話他其實是一個禁忌耶可是台灣的話不能只有外交部一代的道歉譴責而已那國人也必須要有所教育讓他們知道說\n359002\t370658\t其實你已經踩了國際的這個紅線所以這部分的話我在想外交部跟教育部是不是應該共同我們是不是來舉辦一些教育活動讓這些年輕的孩子知道說其實你已經抵觸了這個國際的這個紅線了\n374322\t401932\t這是本席的這個建議啦那再來呢我想請教一下就是說在上個月底的時候緬甸呢發生了規模7.7的這個強烈地震我們看到呢有很多的這個官方跟民間的這個單位他有發起了對緬甸地震災區的這個震災的捐款活動那當然要在捐款之前必須要跟這個衛福部社會救助司這邊來申請合法的這個勸募的這個活動本席想請教一下像這些上款\n403433\t424758\t到國外去 我們有哪個單位在監督嗎 請問部長當然因為要勸募必須向衛福部登記有主管機關的監督那如果涉外因為我們外管尤其是如果以我們政府發起的當然我們會嚴格的來落實這些監督那有些民間\n425898\t437826\t他們的不管是善款或善刑透過非政府組織或其他的方式他們可能是以實際的行動表達對於這些災害他們的關心跟援助這個部分我們會盡量的來去也要宣導一方面協助同時讓他們了解因為這都涉及到勸募的行為\n456199\t472291\t為什麼本席會這麼問像之前我們土耳其發生大政的時候其實有很多善款流到台灣中心去結果後來這個善款到底是如何使用的後來去向不明所以這一次緬甸的\n475193\t491842\t雖然發生了大政可是有很多民眾其實有在擔心他捐出去的錢到底有沒有用在重建那會不會說不知情之下甚至會流入軍政府手中呢作為一級的資金等等都有這些聲音出來所以這次緬甸的這個大政我們發現就是說\n493143\t521983\t民眾很有疑慮因為大家都很擔心說之前土耳其大政的時候國人有透過這個募資平台來募款那這台灣中心到後來錢到哪裡去了完全不知道國人很擔心這件事情會發生所以我剛才就在提到就是說那部長有提到了如果是政府這邊來辦理的募款也許你們有所可以監督可是民間呢民間的捐款到國外去我們發現好像沒有監督單位耶是\n522683\t536824\t其實我們在第一時間除了跟緬甸方面聯繫希望派遣救災人員過去因為也涉及到他們沒有接受那我們就支持民間包括很多的慈善基金會他們進入\n539487\t564217\t他們比較有經驗以外其實很多台商這個台商的協會或聯誼會他們也有在地的人脈所以我們就用間接的方式來協助那另外僑委會在第一時間也有跟台商會來聯繫所以這些都是表達我們對於這些就是不管是救災、震災的關懷跟協助那可是呢確實在有一些國家它比較\n565918\t588451\t就是比較不上軌道尤其是涉及到這些善款的利用我們也記取過去的經驗我們怎麼樣去實質的幫助到需要幫助的人而不是只是給錢因為錢就是會產生非常執行的問題那在海外有時候啦真的是沒有辦法像國內那麼清楚的去監督到每一筆錢的流向\n589791\t611321\t如果我們跟NGO或跟台商會的合作他們至少是一個在台灣算是有一定的代表性的社團這個也能夠達到援助的一個目標但是我們政府任何的捐款都必須要接受嚴格的監督這個是要做一些區別的\n612815\t629522\t部長是這樣子喔因為剛剛部長還是在提這對於這個民間單位的這個募款目前說實在聽起來是我們這個監督單位的系統是還沒有建立起來海外喔真的是因為我們多次其實包括在東南亞發生的很多災害過程真的也是很熱\n630402\t633484\t這是國人的愛心但是在執行面會有一些落差因為畢竟他那些國家法制比較欠缺會有時候中間人像你在緬甸來講就好幾個政府了所以這次緬甸的捐款國人很有疑慮要錢拿去用在哪裡或者是這個都會造成無法去追蹤\n653656\t675095\t所以避免國人的愛心被有心人所利用我想外交部跟有關單位相關單位應該要來建立一個比較有系統的這個管道如何去監督這筆錢否則國人還是有疑慮畢竟土耳其的事情之前也發生了台灣中心大家都還以為是台灣的政府\n675675\t692883\t成立的一個 因為他用台灣中心實際上後來錢跑到哪裡去了所有的建設也都不知道在哪邊所以這個部分的話我想這部分應該外交部也要來加強跟各個單位來做一個討論這些民間的善款如何有效的被利用好 以上謝謝好 謝謝韋爺謝謝陸美齡委員上台質詢\n","txt":"林委員上台自信謝謝主席 有請林佳龍部長\n部長早 部長在上個禮拜呢這個國民黨的青年軍這個成員叫宋建良的他因為在罷免李昆城委員李昆城委員的這個連署案因為涉嫌偽造文書然後遭到新北地檢署的這個約談那在遺訟復訊的時候呢他帶著這個有納粹符號的這個備章還有手持希特勒的這個著作然後比出這個納粹的這個敬禮的手而手勢引起這個社會的這個嘩然\n那當然這個德國在台協會呢認為這個行為是非常的無恥喔那以色列駐台代表處也表達了這個嚴重的強烈的這個譴責那這件事情其實呢不單單是對我國的國際形象造成很嚴重的這個衝擊那也影響到我們跟德國還有以色列等國的這個外交的這個邦誼喔\n那其實我們除了這次的事件之外呢其實像過去其實國內陸續也發生過極其類似就是霧彩國際紅線的這個行為例如前幾年就有某一間這個高中在校慶的時候表演這個就是穿著表演的時候穿著這個納粹的這個服飾然後模仿這個德軍軍衛隊受教業的這個場景那像在2011年的時候其實也有\n学生在参加国防部的战斗营的时候也是身穿纳税的军服等等所以为了避免类似的情形发生我们外交部对这个部分我们要如何对这些年轻的孩子做一个再教育\n因為當然我們知道教育部在一些歷史課本有提到關於納粹的過去對人類歷史的一些蹂躪跟一些迫害可是好像還是有些國內的孩子似乎不太了解他們實際上對納粹行為不是那麼的清楚像外交部每次遇到這種狀況的時候都必須要跟外管\n這個德國或是納粹或是跟國際來做道歉甚至說呼籲國人該怎麼做該要尊重他國的這個文化的這個歷史可是當然他呼籲我本席覺得應該是不足的應該是不足的我們如何要對這些孩子們予以這個教育這部分我們不能一再的道歉跟呼籲而已部長是委員我同意這個\n對於這個這件事件外交部在第一時間就表達嚴正的譴責我們用這麼重就是嚴正的譴責也是要就是有個機會教育要讓國人也跟國際都了解我們在對於這一個\n用納稅的符號跟旗幟那麼濫用我們自由法治社會的一個言論的自由受到憲法的保障但是這一些是\n這個不只是說負面的意義這種對於歷史的無知可能會持續造成傷害所以我們必須要利用這個事件嚴正的譴責另外一方面也是透過我們跟包括很多的活動包括像這個有關於這個\n納稅大屠殺這樣的一個反思包括舉辦活動包括像Holocaust這些讓更多人的了解除了學校教育要加強以外我們在社會各個層面也必須對於使用納稅的這種過去殘害人類的\n符號跟旗幟其實是表達絕不容忍也不會就是說讓這樣的事情在台灣就是發展\n對 因為我剛剛有提到了 每次發生這個事情外交部就必須要站出來 像剛剛部長所提到了就譴責啊 那不然就辦一些活動其實我們也必須要讓國人知道 就像部長剛才所講的其實言論自由 其實它是有界限的那我們有盤點過幾個國家 尤其像德國德國它是明文禁止使用 就是說\n有納粹標誌的這些任何的這個物品那再來也禁止穿著這納粹的軍服使用納粹敬禮宣揚納粹主義德國是還是明文禁止不然的話違反者他將以煽動種族仇恨的這個罪名來起訴那法國的話如果你出犯了以上的這些行為的話其實他是有罰款的那奧地利呢甚至呢他是處於一年以上十年以下有期徒刑情節嚴重的等於處於二十年的有期徒刑\n那澳洲也是一樣他2025年透過的反仇恨犯罪法他最高是可處十二徒刑那泰國曾經也是發現像亞洲的泰國像之前有一個女子團體呢他在彩排的時候穿著納粹的這個萬字圖案的這個衣服那之後呢他還必須要向這個以色列大使來道歉而且呢共同舉辦教育活動像這個部分的話在台灣可能真的就比較少了\n當這些人他在就像部長所說的也許是無知也許是無知那可是我們要讓他們如何了解像國外的話他其實是一個禁忌耶可是台灣的話不能只有外交部一代的道歉譴責而已那國人也必須要有所教育讓他們知道說\n其實你已經踩了國際的這個紅線所以這部分的話我在想外交部跟教育部是不是應該共同我們是不是來舉辦一些教育活動讓這些年輕的孩子知道說其實你已經抵觸了這個國際的這個紅線了\n這是本席的這個建議啦那再來呢我想請教一下就是說在上個月底的時候緬甸呢發生了規模7.7的這個強烈地震我們看到呢有很多的這個官方跟民間的這個單位他有發起了對緬甸地震災區的這個震災的捐款活動那當然要在捐款之前必須要跟這個衛福部社會救助司這邊來申請合法的這個勸募的這個活動本席想請教一下像這些上款\n到國外去 我們有哪個單位在監督嗎 請問部長當然因為要勸募必須向衛福部登記有主管機關的監督那如果涉外因為我們外管尤其是如果以我們政府發起的當然我們會嚴格的來落實這些監督那有些民間\n他們的不管是善款或善刑透過非政府組織或其他的方式他們可能是以實際的行動表達對於這些災害他們的關心跟援助這個部分我們會盡量的來去也要宣導一方面協助同時讓他們了解因為這都涉及到勸募的行為\n為什麼本席會這麼問像之前我們土耳其發生大政的時候其實有很多善款流到台灣中心去結果後來這個善款到底是如何使用的後來去向不明所以這一次緬甸的\n雖然發生了大政可是有很多民眾其實有在擔心他捐出去的錢到底有沒有用在重建那會不會說不知情之下甚至會流入軍政府手中呢作為一級的資金等等都有這些聲音出來所以這次緬甸的這個大政我們發現就是說\n民眾很有疑慮因為大家都很擔心說之前土耳其大政的時候國人有透過這個募資平台來募款那這台灣中心到後來錢到哪裡去了完全不知道國人很擔心這件事情會發生所以我剛才就在提到就是說那部長有提到了如果是政府這邊來辦理的募款也許你們有所可以監督可是民間呢民間的捐款到國外去我們發現好像沒有監督單位耶是\n其實我們在第一時間除了跟緬甸方面聯繫希望派遣救災人員過去因為也涉及到他們沒有接受那我們就支持民間包括很多的慈善基金會他們進入\n他們比較有經驗以外其實很多台商這個台商的協會或聯誼會他們也有在地的人脈所以我們就用間接的方式來協助那另外僑委會在第一時間也有跟台商會來聯繫所以這些都是表達我們對於這些就是不管是救災、震災的關懷跟協助那可是呢確實在有一些國家它比較\n就是比較不上軌道尤其是涉及到這些善款的利用我們也記取過去的經驗我們怎麼樣去實質的幫助到需要幫助的人而不是只是給錢因為錢就是會產生非常執行的問題那在海外有時候啦真的是沒有辦法像國內那麼清楚的去監督到每一筆錢的流向\n如果我們跟NGO或跟台商會的合作他們至少是一個在台灣算是有一定的代表性的社團這個也能夠達到援助的一個目標但是我們政府任何的捐款都必須要接受嚴格的監督這個是要做一些區別的\n部長是這樣子喔因為剛剛部長還是在提這對於這個民間單位的這個募款目前說實在聽起來是我們這個監督單位的系統是還沒有建立起來海外喔真的是因為我們多次其實包括在東南亞發生的很多災害過程真的也是很熱\n這是國人的愛心但是在執行面會有一些落差因為畢竟他那些國家法制比較欠缺會有時候中間人像你在緬甸來講就好幾個政府了所以這次緬甸的捐款國人很有疑慮要錢拿去用在哪裡或者是這個都會造成無法去追蹤\n所以避免國人的愛心被有心人所利用我想外交部跟有關單位相關單位應該要來建立一個比較有系統的這個管道如何去監督這筆錢否則國人還是有疑慮畢竟土耳其的事情之前也發生了台灣中心大家都還以為是台灣的政府\n成立的一個 因為他用台灣中心實際上後來錢跑到哪裡去了所有的建設也都不知道在哪邊所以這個部分的話我想這部分應該外交部也要來加強跟各個單位來做一個討論這些民間的善款如何有效的被利用好 以上謝謝好 謝謝韋爺謝謝陸美齡委員上台質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.149 --> 00:01.351\n林委員上台自信謝謝主席有請林佳龍部長\n\n00:22.635 --> 00:39.643\n部長早部長在上個禮拜呢這個國民黨的青年軍這個成員叫宋建良的他因為在罷免李昆城委員李昆城委員的這個連署案因為涉嫌偽造文書然後遭到新北地檢署的這個約談那在遺訟復訊的時候呢他帶著這個有納粹符號的這個備章還有手持希特勒的這個著作然後比出這個納粹的這個敬禮的手而手勢引起這個社會的這個嘩然\n\n00:49.927 --> 00:55.254\n那當然這個德國在台協會呢認為這個行為是非常的無恥喔那以色列駐台代表處也表達了這個嚴重的強烈的這個譴責那這件事情其實呢不單單是對我國的國際形象造成很嚴重的這個衝擊那也影響到我們跟德國還有以色列等國的這個外交的這個邦誼喔\n\n01:09.190 --> 01:15.933\n那其實我們除了這次的事件之外呢其實像過去其實國內陸續也發生過極其類似就是霧彩國際紅線的這個行為例如前幾年就有某一間這個高中在校慶的時候表演這個就是穿著表演的時候穿著這個納粹的這個服飾然後模仿這個德軍軍衛隊受教業的這個場景那像在2011年的時候其實也有\n\n01:38.865 --> 01:54.946\n学生在参加国防部的战斗营的时候也是身穿纳税的军服等等所以为了避免类似的情形发生我们外交部对这个部分我们要如何对这些年轻的孩子做一个再教育\n\n01:55.286 --> 01:59.029\n因為當然我們知道教育部在一些歷史課本有提到關於納粹的過去對人類歷史的一些蹂躪跟一些迫害可是好像還是有些國內的孩子似乎不太了解他們實際上對納粹行為不是那麼的清楚像外交部每次遇到這種狀況的時候都必須要跟外管\n\n02:20.446 --> 02:43.225\n這個德國或是納粹或是跟國際來做道歉甚至說呼籲國人該怎麼做該要尊重他國的這個文化的這個歷史可是當然他呼籲我本席覺得應該是不足的應該是不足的我們如何要對這些孩子們予以這個教育這部分我們不能一再的道歉跟呼籲而已部長是委員我同意這個\n\n02:47.863 --> 03:02.698\n對於這個這件事件外交部在第一時間就表達嚴正的譴責我們用這麼重就是嚴正的譴責也是要就是有個機會教育要讓國人也跟國際都了解我們在對於這一個\n\n03:05.020 --> 03:18.826\n用納稅的符號跟旗幟那麼濫用我們自由法治社會的一個言論的自由受到憲法的保障但是這一些是\n\n03:21.047 --> 03:42.947\n這個不只是說負面的意義這種對於歷史的無知可能會持續造成傷害所以我們必須要利用這個事件嚴正的譴責另外一方面也是透過我們跟包括很多的活動包括像這個有關於這個\n\n03:44.848 --> 04:02.193\n納稅大屠殺這樣的一個反思包括舉辦活動包括像Holocaust這些讓更多人的了解除了學校教育要加強以外我們在社會各個層面也必須對於使用納稅的這種過去殘害人類的\n\n04:06.494 --> 04:16.772\n符號跟旗幟其實是表達絕不容忍也不會就是說讓這樣的事情在台灣就是發展\n\n04:19.231 --> 04:43.936\n對因為我剛剛有提到了每次發生這個事情外交部就必須要站出來像剛剛部長所提到了就譴責啊那不然就辦一些活動其實我們也必須要讓國人知道就像部長剛才所講的其實言論自由其實它是有界限的那我們有盤點過幾個國家尤其像德國德國它是明文禁止使用就是說\n\n04:44.796 --> 04:52.539\n有納粹標誌的這些任何的這個物品那再來也禁止穿著這納粹的軍服使用納粹敬禮宣揚納粹主義德國是還是明文禁止不然的話違反者他將以煽動種族仇恨的這個罪名來起訴那法國的話如果你出犯了以上的這些行為的話其實他是有罰款的那奧地利呢甚至呢他是處於一年以上十年以下有期徒刑情節嚴重的等於處於二十年的有期徒刑\n\n05:12.088 --> 05:32.702\n那澳洲也是一樣他2025年透過的反仇恨犯罪法他最高是可處十二徒刑那泰國曾經也是發現像亞洲的泰國像之前有一個女子團體呢他在彩排的時候穿著納粹的這個萬字圖案的這個衣服那之後呢他還必須要向這個以色列大使來道歉而且呢共同舉辦教育活動像這個部分的話在台灣可能真的就比較少了\n\n05:38.356 --> 05:56.781\n當這些人他在就像部長所說的也許是無知也許是無知那可是我們要讓他們如何了解像國外的話他其實是一個禁忌耶可是台灣的話不能只有外交部一代的道歉譴責而已那國人也必須要有所教育讓他們知道說\n\n05:59.002 --> 06:10.658\n其實你已經踩了國際的這個紅線所以這部分的話我在想外交部跟教育部是不是應該共同我們是不是來舉辦一些教育活動讓這些年輕的孩子知道說其實你已經抵觸了這個國際的這個紅線了\n\n06:14.322 --> 06:41.932\n這是本席的這個建議啦那再來呢我想請教一下就是說在上個月底的時候緬甸呢發生了規模7.7的這個強烈地震我們看到呢有很多的這個官方跟民間的這個單位他有發起了對緬甸地震災區的這個震災的捐款活動那當然要在捐款之前必須要跟這個衛福部社會救助司這邊來申請合法的這個勸募的這個活動本席想請教一下像這些上款\n\n06:43.433 --> 07:04.758\n到國外去我們有哪個單位在監督嗎請問部長當然因為要勸募必須向衛福部登記有主管機關的監督那如果涉外因為我們外管尤其是如果以我們政府發起的當然我們會嚴格的來落實這些監督那有些民間\n\n07:05.898 --> 07:17.826\n他們的不管是善款或善刑透過非政府組織或其他的方式他們可能是以實際的行動表達對於這些災害他們的關心跟援助這個部分我們會盡量的來去也要宣導一方面協助同時讓他們了解因為這都涉及到勸募的行為\n\n07:36.199 --> 07:52.291\n為什麼本席會這麼問像之前我們土耳其發生大政的時候其實有很多善款流到台灣中心去結果後來這個善款到底是如何使用的後來去向不明所以這一次緬甸的\n\n07:55.193 --> 08:11.842\n雖然發生了大政可是有很多民眾其實有在擔心他捐出去的錢到底有沒有用在重建那會不會說不知情之下甚至會流入軍政府手中呢作為一級的資金等等都有這些聲音出來所以這次緬甸的這個大政我們發現就是說\n\n08:13.143 --> 08:41.983\n民眾很有疑慮因為大家都很擔心說之前土耳其大政的時候國人有透過這個募資平台來募款那這台灣中心到後來錢到哪裡去了完全不知道國人很擔心這件事情會發生所以我剛才就在提到就是說那部長有提到了如果是政府這邊來辦理的募款也許你們有所可以監督可是民間呢民間的捐款到國外去我們發現好像沒有監督單位耶是\n\n08:42.683 --> 08:56.824\n其實我們在第一時間除了跟緬甸方面聯繫希望派遣救災人員過去因為也涉及到他們沒有接受那我們就支持民間包括很多的慈善基金會他們進入\n\n08:59.487 --> 09:24.217\n他們比較有經驗以外其實很多台商這個台商的協會或聯誼會他們也有在地的人脈所以我們就用間接的方式來協助那另外僑委會在第一時間也有跟台商會來聯繫所以這些都是表達我們對於這些就是不管是救災、震災的關懷跟協助那可是呢確實在有一些國家它比較\n\n09:25.918 --> 09:48.451\n就是比較不上軌道尤其是涉及到這些善款的利用我們也記取過去的經驗我們怎麼樣去實質的幫助到需要幫助的人而不是只是給錢因為錢就是會產生非常執行的問題那在海外有時候啦真的是沒有辦法像國內那麼清楚的去監督到每一筆錢的流向\n\n09:49.791 --> 10:11.321\n如果我們跟NGO或跟台商會的合作他們至少是一個在台灣算是有一定的代表性的社團這個也能夠達到援助的一個目標但是我們政府任何的捐款都必須要接受嚴格的監督這個是要做一些區別的\n\n10:12.815 --> 10:29.522\n部長是這樣子喔因為剛剛部長還是在提這對於這個民間單位的這個募款目前說實在聽起來是我們這個監督單位的系統是還沒有建立起來海外喔真的是因為我們多次其實包括在東南亞發生的很多災害過程真的也是很熱\n\n10:30.402 --> 10:33.484\n這是國人的愛心但是在執行面會有一些落差因為畢竟他那些國家法制比較欠缺會有時候中間人像你在緬甸來講就好幾個政府了所以這次緬甸的捐款國人很有疑慮要錢拿去用在哪裡或者是這個都會造成無法去追蹤\n\n10:53.656 --> 11:15.095\n所以避免國人的愛心被有心人所利用我想外交部跟有關單位相關單位應該要來建立一個比較有系統的這個管道如何去監督這筆錢否則國人還是有疑慮畢竟土耳其的事情之前也發生了台灣中心大家都還以為是台灣的政府\n\n11:15.675 --> 11:32.883\n成立的一個因為他用台灣中心實際上後來錢跑到哪裡去了所有的建設也都不知道在哪邊所以這個部分的話我想這部分應該外交部也要來加強跟各個單位來做一個討論這些民間的善款如何有效的被利用好以上謝謝好謝謝韋爺謝謝陸美齡委員上台質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.149,"end":1.351,"text":"林委員上台自信謝謝主席 有請林佳龍部長"},{"start":22.635,"end":39.643,"text":"部長早 部長在上個禮拜呢這個國民黨的青年軍這個成員叫宋建良的他因為在罷免李昆城委員李昆城委員的這個連署案因為涉嫌偽造文書然後遭到新北地檢署的這個約談那在遺訟復訊的時候呢他帶著這個有納粹符號的這個備章還有手持希特勒的這個著作然後比出這個納粹的這個敬禮的手而手勢引起這個社會的這個嘩然"},{"start":49.927,"end":55.254,"text":"那當然這個德國在台協會呢認為這個行為是非常的無恥喔那以色列駐台代表處也表達了這個嚴重的強烈的這個譴責那這件事情其實呢不單單是對我國的國際形象造成很嚴重的這個衝擊那也影響到我們跟德國還有以色列等國的這個外交的這個邦誼喔"},{"start":69.19,"end":75.933,"text":"那其實我們除了這次的事件之外呢其實像過去其實國內陸續也發生過極其類似就是霧彩國際紅線的這個行為例如前幾年就有某一間這個高中在校慶的時候表演這個就是穿著表演的時候穿著這個納粹的這個服飾然後模仿這個德軍軍衛隊受教業的這個場景那像在2011年的時候其實也有"},{"start":98.865,"end":114.946,"text":"学生在参加国防部的战斗营的时候也是身穿纳税的军服等等所以为了避免类似的情形发生我们外交部对这个部分我们要如何对这些年轻的孩子做一个再教育"},{"start":115.286,"end":119.029,"text":"因為當然我們知道教育部在一些歷史課本有提到關於納粹的過去對人類歷史的一些蹂躪跟一些迫害可是好像還是有些國內的孩子似乎不太了解他們實際上對納粹行為不是那麼的清楚像外交部每次遇到這種狀況的時候都必須要跟外管"},{"start":140.446,"end":163.225,"text":"這個德國或是納粹或是跟國際來做道歉甚至說呼籲國人該怎麼做該要尊重他國的這個文化的這個歷史可是當然他呼籲我本席覺得應該是不足的應該是不足的我們如何要對這些孩子們予以這個教育這部分我們不能一再的道歉跟呼籲而已部長是委員我同意這個"},{"start":167.863,"end":182.698,"text":"對於這個這件事件外交部在第一時間就表達嚴正的譴責我們用這麼重就是嚴正的譴責也是要就是有個機會教育要讓國人也跟國際都了解我們在對於這一個"},{"start":185.02,"end":198.826,"text":"用納稅的符號跟旗幟那麼濫用我們自由法治社會的一個言論的自由受到憲法的保障但是這一些是"},{"start":201.047,"end":222.947,"text":"這個不只是說負面的意義這種對於歷史的無知可能會持續造成傷害所以我們必須要利用這個事件嚴正的譴責另外一方面也是透過我們跟包括很多的活動包括像這個有關於這個"},{"start":224.848,"end":242.193,"text":"納稅大屠殺這樣的一個反思包括舉辦活動包括像Holocaust這些讓更多人的了解除了學校教育要加強以外我們在社會各個層面也必須對於使用納稅的這種過去殘害人類的"},{"start":246.494,"end":256.772,"text":"符號跟旗幟其實是表達絕不容忍也不會就是說讓這樣的事情在台灣就是發展"},{"start":259.231,"end":283.936,"text":"對 因為我剛剛有提到了 每次發生這個事情外交部就必須要站出來 像剛剛部長所提到了就譴責啊 那不然就辦一些活動其實我們也必須要讓國人知道 就像部長剛才所講的其實言論自由 其實它是有界限的那我們有盤點過幾個國家 尤其像德國德國它是明文禁止使用 就是說"},{"start":284.796,"end":292.539,"text":"有納粹標誌的這些任何的這個物品那再來也禁止穿著這納粹的軍服使用納粹敬禮宣揚納粹主義德國是還是明文禁止不然的話違反者他將以煽動種族仇恨的這個罪名來起訴那法國的話如果你出犯了以上的這些行為的話其實他是有罰款的那奧地利呢甚至呢他是處於一年以上十年以下有期徒刑情節嚴重的等於處於二十年的有期徒刑"},{"start":312.088,"end":332.702,"text":"那澳洲也是一樣他2025年透過的反仇恨犯罪法他最高是可處十二徒刑那泰國曾經也是發現像亞洲的泰國像之前有一個女子團體呢他在彩排的時候穿著納粹的這個萬字圖案的這個衣服那之後呢他還必須要向這個以色列大使來道歉而且呢共同舉辦教育活動像這個部分的話在台灣可能真的就比較少了"},{"start":338.356,"end":356.781,"text":"當這些人他在就像部長所說的也許是無知也許是無知那可是我們要讓他們如何了解像國外的話他其實是一個禁忌耶可是台灣的話不能只有外交部一代的道歉譴責而已那國人也必須要有所教育讓他們知道說"},{"start":359.002,"end":370.658,"text":"其實你已經踩了國際的這個紅線所以這部分的話我在想外交部跟教育部是不是應該共同我們是不是來舉辦一些教育活動讓這些年輕的孩子知道說其實你已經抵觸了這個國際的這個紅線了"},{"start":374.322,"end":401.932,"text":"這是本席的這個建議啦那再來呢我想請教一下就是說在上個月底的時候緬甸呢發生了規模7.7的這個強烈地震我們看到呢有很多的這個官方跟民間的這個單位他有發起了對緬甸地震災區的這個震災的捐款活動那當然要在捐款之前必須要跟這個衛福部社會救助司這邊來申請合法的這個勸募的這個活動本席想請教一下像這些上款"},{"start":403.433,"end":424.758,"text":"到國外去 我們有哪個單位在監督嗎 請問部長當然因為要勸募必須向衛福部登記有主管機關的監督那如果涉外因為我們外管尤其是如果以我們政府發起的當然我們會嚴格的來落實這些監督那有些民間"},{"start":425.898,"end":437.826,"text":"他們的不管是善款或善刑透過非政府組織或其他的方式他們可能是以實際的行動表達對於這些災害他們的關心跟援助這個部分我們會盡量的來去也要宣導一方面協助同時讓他們了解因為這都涉及到勸募的行為"},{"start":456.199,"end":472.291,"text":"為什麼本席會這麼問像之前我們土耳其發生大政的時候其實有很多善款流到台灣中心去結果後來這個善款到底是如何使用的後來去向不明所以這一次緬甸的"},{"start":475.193,"end":491.842,"text":"雖然發生了大政可是有很多民眾其實有在擔心他捐出去的錢到底有沒有用在重建那會不會說不知情之下甚至會流入軍政府手中呢作為一級的資金等等都有這些聲音出來所以這次緬甸的這個大政我們發現就是說"},{"start":493.143,"end":521.983,"text":"民眾很有疑慮因為大家都很擔心說之前土耳其大政的時候國人有透過這個募資平台來募款那這台灣中心到後來錢到哪裡去了完全不知道國人很擔心這件事情會發生所以我剛才就在提到就是說那部長有提到了如果是政府這邊來辦理的募款也許你們有所可以監督可是民間呢民間的捐款到國外去我們發現好像沒有監督單位耶是"},{"start":522.683,"end":536.824,"text":"其實我們在第一時間除了跟緬甸方面聯繫希望派遣救災人員過去因為也涉及到他們沒有接受那我們就支持民間包括很多的慈善基金會他們進入"},{"start":539.487,"end":564.217,"text":"他們比較有經驗以外其實很多台商這個台商的協會或聯誼會他們也有在地的人脈所以我們就用間接的方式來協助那另外僑委會在第一時間也有跟台商會來聯繫所以這些都是表達我們對於這些就是不管是救災、震災的關懷跟協助那可是呢確實在有一些國家它比較"},{"start":565.918,"end":588.451,"text":"就是比較不上軌道尤其是涉及到這些善款的利用我們也記取過去的經驗我們怎麼樣去實質的幫助到需要幫助的人而不是只是給錢因為錢就是會產生非常執行的問題那在海外有時候啦真的是沒有辦法像國內那麼清楚的去監督到每一筆錢的流向"},{"start":589.791,"end":611.321,"text":"如果我們跟NGO或跟台商會的合作他們至少是一個在台灣算是有一定的代表性的社團這個也能夠達到援助的一個目標但是我們政府任何的捐款都必須要接受嚴格的監督這個是要做一些區別的"},{"start":612.815,"end":629.522,"text":"部長是這樣子喔因為剛剛部長還是在提這對於這個民間單位的這個募款目前說實在聽起來是我們這個監督單位的系統是還沒有建立起來海外喔真的是因為我們多次其實包括在東南亞發生的很多災害過程真的也是很熱"},{"start":630.402,"end":633.484,"text":"這是國人的愛心但是在執行面會有一些落差因為畢竟他那些國家法制比較欠缺會有時候中間人像你在緬甸來講就好幾個政府了所以這次緬甸的捐款國人很有疑慮要錢拿去用在哪裡或者是這個都會造成無法去追蹤"},{"start":653.656,"end":675.095,"text":"所以避免國人的愛心被有心人所利用我想外交部跟有關單位相關單位應該要來建立一個比較有系統的這個管道如何去監督這筆錢否則國人還是有疑慮畢竟土耳其的事情之前也發生了台灣中心大家都還以為是台灣的政府"},{"start":675.675,"end":692.883,"text":"成立的一個 因為他用台灣中心實際上後來錢跑到哪裡去了所有的建設也都不知道在哪邊所以這個部分的話我想這部分應該外交部也要來加強跟各個單位來做一個討論這些民間的善款如何有效的被利用好 以上謝謝好 謝謝韋爺謝謝陸美齡委員上台質詢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":81,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時16分）謝謝主席，有請林佳龍部長。","部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["羅委員美玲：部長，上個禮拜國民黨青年軍成員宋建樑因為在罷免李坤城委員的連署案涉嫌偽造文書而遭到新北地檢署約談，在移送複訊的時候，他戴著有納粹符號的臂章，還有手持希特勒的著作，然後比出納粹敬禮的手勢，引起社會譁然。當然，德國在台協會認為這個行為非常的無恥，以色列駐臺代表處也表達了嚴重的、強烈的譴責，這件事情不單單對我國的國際形象造成很嚴重的衝擊，也影響到我們跟德國、以色列等國的外交邦誼。","除了這次的事件之外，其實過去國內陸續也發生過幾起類似誤踩國際紅線的行為，例如前幾年就有某一間高中在校慶表演的時候穿著納粹服飾、模仿德軍親衛隊受校閱的場景；像在2011年的時候，其實也有學生在參加國防部戰鬥營的時候身穿納粹軍服等等。","為了避免類似的情形發生，外交部就這個部分要如何對這些年輕的孩子做一個再教育？當然我們知道，像教育部在一些歷史課本有提到，關於納粹過去對人類歷史的一些蹂躪跟迫害，但有些國內的孩子似乎還是不太了解，他們實際上對納粹行為不是那麼清楚。而外交部每次遇到這種狀況的時候，都必須要跟外館、德國或是國際來做道歉，甚至呼籲國人該怎麼做、該要尊重他國的文化與歷史。但是本席覺得呼籲應該是不足的，我們要如何對這些孩子們予以教育？這部分我們不能一再的道歉跟呼籲而已，部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員，我同意，對於這件事件外交部在第一時間就表達嚴正的譴責，我們用這麼重，就是嚴正的譴責，也是要有個機會教育，要讓國人跟國際都了解，使用納粹的符號跟旗幟，是濫用我們自由法治社會中受到憲法保障的言論自由，這不只是負面的意義，這種對於歷史的無知可能會持續造成傷害，所以我們必須要利用這個事件嚴正的譴責。另外一方面，我們透過很多活動，包括納粹大屠殺的反思、舉辦活動，也包括像holocaust這一些，讓更多人了解，除了學校教育要加強以外，我們在社會各個層面也必須對於過去使用納粹、殘害人類的符號跟旗幟表達絕不容忍，也不會讓這樣的事情在臺灣發展。"],["羅委員美玲：對，我剛剛有提到了，每次發生這個事情，外交部就必須要站出來，像剛剛部長所提到的譴責，不然就是辦一些活動，我們也必須要讓國人知道，就像部長剛才所講的，言論自由是有界限的。我們有盤點過幾個國家，尤其像德國，德國是明文禁止使用有納粹標誌的任何物品，也禁止穿著納粹的軍服、使用納粹敬禮、宣揚納粹主義，在德國是明文禁止的，違反者將以煽動種族仇恨的罪名起訴；法國的話，如果觸犯以上這些行為，其實他們是有罰鍰的；奧地利甚至是處一年以上，十年以下有期徒刑，情節嚴重得處二十年的有期徒刑；澳洲也是一樣，他們2025年通過反仇恨犯罪法，最高可處十二個月的徒刑；泰國，曾經也發生在亞洲的泰國，之前有一個女子團體在彩排時穿著納粹的卐字圖案衣服，之後他們必須要向以色列大使道歉，而且共同舉辦教育活動，像這個部分在臺灣可能真的就比較少了，當這些人他在……就像部長所說的，也許是無知，可是我們要如何讓他們了解。像國外的話，它其實是一個禁忌，可是在臺灣不能只有外交部一再的道歉、譴責而已，也必須對國人有所教育，讓他們知道，其實這已經是踩了國際的紅線。所以我想外交部跟教育部是不是應該共同來舉辦一些教育活動，讓這些年輕的孩子知道，其實這已經抵觸了國際的紅線，這是本席的建議。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["羅委員美玲：再來，我想請教一下，上個月底緬甸發生了規模7.7的強烈地震，我們看到有很多官方跟民間單位發起了對緬甸地震災區的賑災捐款活動，當然在捐款之前必須要跟衛福部社會救助司申請合法的勸募活動，本席想請教一下，像這些善款到國外去，我們有哪個單位在監督嗎？請問部長。"],["林部長佳龍：當然，因為勸募必須向衛福部登記……"],["羅委員美玲：是，對。"],["林部長佳龍：有主管機關的監督，如果涉外……因為我們外館，尤其是我們政府發起的，當然我們會嚴格落實監督，有些民間善款或善行透過非政府組織或其他的方式，他們可能是以實際行動表達對於這些災害的關心跟援助，這部分我們會儘量去宣導，一方面也是協助，同時讓他們了解，因為這都涉及勸募的行為，必須依法辦理。"],["羅委員美玲：為什麼本席會這麼問，之前土耳其發生大震的時候，其實有很多善款流到臺灣中心去，後來這個善款到底是如何使用的？因為去向不明，所以這次緬甸雖然發生了大震，可是其實有很多民眾擔心他們捐出去的錢到底有沒有用在重建？會不會甚至在不知情之下流入軍政府手中，作為異己的資金等等，都有這些聲音出來。這次緬甸的大震，我們發現民眾很有疑慮，因為大家都很擔心之前土耳其大震時，國人透過募資平臺來募款，後來完全不知道臺灣中心的錢到哪裡去了，國人很擔心這件事情會發生。所以我剛才提到，部長也有提到，如果是由政府辦理的募款，也許你們可以監督，可是民間呢？民間捐款到國外去，我們發現好像沒有監督單位耶！這部分的話……"],["林部長佳龍：是，我跟委員報告，其實我們在第一時間跟緬甸方面聯繫，希望派遣救災人員過去，也因為他們沒有接受，所以我們就支持民間，包括很多的慈善基金會，他們除了比較有經驗以外，其實很多臺商協會或聯誼會也有在地的人脈，因此我們就用間接的方式協助。另外，僑委會在第一時間也有跟臺商會聯繫，這些都是表達我們對於這些救災、賑災的關懷跟協助。可是確實有一些國家比較不上軌道，尤其是涉及這些善款的利用，我們也記取過去的經驗，該怎麼樣實質幫助到需要幫助的人，而不只是給錢，因為錢就是會產生非常多的執行問題，在海外有時候真的是沒有辦法像國內那麼清楚監督到每一筆錢的流向。如果由我們跟NGO或臺商會合作，他們在臺灣至少是有一定代表性的社團，這也能夠達到援助的目標，但是我們政府任何的捐款都必須接受嚴格監督，這個是要做一些區別的。"],["羅委員美玲：部長，是這樣子的，因為剛剛部長還是在提對於民間單位的募款，目前說實在的，聽起來是我們監督單位的系統還沒有建立起來……"],["林部長佳龍：海外真的是……因為其實多次在東南亞發生的災害，國人真的也是很熱切的關懷……"],["羅委員美玲：是，就是國人的愛心……"],["林部長佳龍：但是在執行面會有一些落差，畢竟他們那些國家的法制比較欠缺，有時候中間人……像在緬甸來講，就有好幾個政府了，除了軍政府之外，各地又被割據……"],["羅委員美玲：是啊，所以這次緬甸的捐款，國人很有疑慮……"],["林部長佳龍：錢被拿去用在哪裡都會造成無法追蹤……"],["羅委員美玲：為了避免國人的愛心被有心人利用，我想外交部跟有關單位、相關單位應該要建立一個比較有系統的管道，思考如何去監督這筆錢，否則國人還是有疑慮，畢竟之前也發生了土耳其的事情，大家都還以為臺灣中心是臺灣政府成立的一個中心，因為他們用「臺灣中心」的名字，實際上後來錢跑到哪裡去了，所有建設也都不知道在哪邊。我想外交部應該要加強這個部分，跟各單位討論這些民間的善款如何有效的被利用。以上，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅美玲委員上臺質詢。","接下來由陳俊宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-9","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","林楚茵","王定宇","馬文君","徐巧芯","黃國昌","廖先翔","王鴻薇","張啓楷","李坤城","林憶君"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00002"}}}