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{\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 286.508, \"end\": 286.648, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 286.648, \"end\": 286.748, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"代\", \"start\": 286.748, \"end\": 286.888, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 286.888, \"end\": 287.068, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 287.068, \"end\": 287.228, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 287.228, \"end\": 287.308, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 287.308, \"end\": 287.828, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 287.828, \"end\": 288.069, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 288.069, \"end\": 288.189, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 288.189, \"end\": 288.209, \"score\": 0.583}]}, {\"start\": 292.335, \"end\": 316.831, \"text\": \"委員好,我是國防部法律司法紀大樓處處長王振宜就剛剛委員所提過的部分,軍事審判制度是否恢復的部分,回應如下第一個,總統在3月13號宣示的這個恢復軍事審判的一個相關的一個條件之下其實本部在當天的記者會上也有強調在說明就是說其實就現行的軍事審判法來看的話,暫時還是要恢復軍事審判\", \"words\": 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\"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 766.862, \"end\": 766.982, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 766.982, \"end\": 767.062, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 767.062, \"end\": 767.462, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 767.462, \"end\": 767.622, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 767.622, \"end\": 768.463, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"門\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 768.463, \"end\": 768.603, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 768.603, \"end\": 768.763, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 768.763, \"end\": 769.043, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 769.043, \"end\": 769.203, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 769.203, \"end\": 769.804, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 769.804, \"end\": 769.924, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 769.924, \"end\": 770.024, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 770.024, \"end\": 770.424, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 770.424, \"end\": 770.444, \"score\": 0.965}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,973 --> 00:00:20,524\n謝謝主席福音同仁大家好我現在請司法院副秘書長和法務部部長還有國防部兩位處長國防部今天的代表國防部代表\n\n2\n00:00:35,425 --> 00:00:57,422\n主席大家好我們今天就是因為我們來共同面對這個共諜滲透的一個狀況然後來探討我們軍事審判跟國安體系的一個落差所以今天這個軍事審判制度跟國安執法的這個缺口我想希望透過今天大家來探討然後再做一個系統性的一個處理跟改革\n\n3\n00:00:58,743 --> 00:01:26,138\n剛才在報告裡面鳳姨書長也談到了2013年修法之後基本上我們的軍事審判已經大幅轉向平時的法院的一個管轄在暫時才會回復軍閥系統但是為了配合過渡跟備戰的需要其實在現在的整個軍事審判法的第五條第二項規定地方法院也設如您所講的專庭跟專股來負責國防安全跟軍機有關的特殊案件\n\n4\n00:01:26,798 --> 00:01:45,519\n那現在這個制度大概實行了多少年了?軍事審判庭運作的情形又如何呢?兩位從那個103年1月13號開始到現在11年嗎?11年多對如您報告所講的那運作的情形如何呢?\n\n5\n00:01:47,837 --> 00:02:05,073\n運作情形我們目前都成立那個專庭跟那個專股然後那個有專門的那個法官那法官也要接受那個培訓是這個您剛才在報告裡面有講過這個運作上有沒有什麼樣子的一個需要討論跟改變的空間呢\n\n6\n00:02:07,127 --> 00:02:30,610\n目前就是大家比較關心的就是說那個量刑量刑是不是就是符合那個外界那個期待那這個在那個108年的時候有一個重要的一個關鍵點是那個在國安法那個修法之後呢法定刑已經大幅那個提高了那之後所以這個除了量刑以外你們對於其他的目前這個狀況都沒有覺得有什麼需要再處理的嗎\n\n7\n00:02:31,691 --> 00:02:46,247\n當然就是說法官的那個賠率也必須再更那個一步那個精進那另外就是說像有些那個案件對於就是說譬如說是不是那個機密那個鑑定啊這個部分我想也要跟就是他在時間上或者說專業上也必須跟這可能就跟相關的部會有一點關係嘛\n\n8\n00:02:51,192 --> 00:03:13,510\n所以如果照您這樣所講我們整個軍事審判的專庭已經運作了很多年那目前看起來好像沒有需要回復軍事審判庭的必要嘛所以你們也有我們運作多年目前的狀況好像還持平嘛那案件呢基本上也非常熟悉了嘛處理案件的狀況也非常熟悉了嘛然後你們每年都會有這個軍法的訓練還有一些暫時演練的課程嘛如您所講的十二個學分\n\n9\n00:03:18,294 --> 00:03:32,964\n然後再來在軍刑法呢也有暫時的一個特殊的規定所以這個軍事法庭還需要再這樣子回覆嗎本席這邊有一些質疑跟懷疑的所以這個是不是請你們再做一個探討\n\n10\n00:03:34,585 --> 00:04:01,998\n那這邊談到一個也請那個法務部這邊一起來了解本席所講的軍方的訓練是為了領導統一因此會採取上命下從但是審判的制度呢是必須要獨立所以獨立審判者不能受到上級命令或指導更不可以被其他勢力所影響那這個是軍方做不到的所以您怎麼看待現在這件事情\n\n11\n00:04:03,973 --> 00:04:28,898\n那個軍事審判是否要恢復到整個要修法要恢復到部分的一些的那我們是這不是我們法務部主管的法規那我想您的看法呢您的看法我想這邊我不談我個人看法這是一個國家的那個軍事審判的一個政策的一個一個是否合乎到現實的一個需要那這邊我們都尊重這個整個一個一個全職警務就國安部\n\n12\n00:04:29,358 --> 00:04:48,209\n的一個決定所以司法院法務部都尊重相關的這個單位那國防部要不要因為這個不是我們主管的法規這個軍事審判法及相關的這些法令它的主管機關都是國防部但是這相關的系統都跟你們有關啊國防部的代表要不要來回應一下\n\n13\n00:04:52,335 --> 00:05:16,831\n委員好,我是國防部法律司法紀大樓處處長王振宜就剛剛委員所提過的部分,軍事審判制度是否恢復的部分,回應如下第一個,總統在3月13號宣示的這個恢復軍事審判的一個相關的一個條件之下其實本部在當天的記者會上也有強調在說明就是說其實就現行的軍事審判法來看的話,暫時還是要恢復軍事審判\n\n14\n00:05:18,072 --> 00:05:38,787\n那恢復軍事審判還是由軍法官來從事相關的審判工作本席這邊提醒你們一下在你們公告的這件事情之後呢其實我們還有所謂軍法官的這個問題那軍法官從先前整個業務移撥到這個法院之後呢專股專庭他們也已經差不多熟悉了那你們軍法官的運作有多久沒有運作了\n\n15\n00:05:39,868 --> 00:05:52,342\n應該有11年103年開始就沒有再從事那如果都沒有再運作你覺得現在適宜嗎包委員這個部分其實我們有在同步規劃就是未來如果恢復軍事審判的話我們就軍法官的訓練部分會協請\n\n16\n00:05:54,184 --> 00:06:23,545\n司法院及法務部給予我們那為什麼不像現在這樣子的現狀處理就好了因為就是剛剛有提到暫時審判的部分還是需要有審判制度未來規劃還是由軍法官來從事那軍法官就如您所講的十幾年沒有運作但是在法院呢在專股或專庭的運作上已經也有一些經驗了那為什麼不就現行的這個體制去做處理又要回復在過去民進黨政府一直非常反對的軍事審判\n\n17\n00:06:24,205 --> 00:06:37,905\n包委員因為這個其實在審判制度有兩個就是平時跟暫時的兩個制度那現在是就平時的部分來做一個轉換那暫時如果本席所講的軍刑法也有一些暫時的特殊規定\n\n18\n00:06:40,366 --> 00:07:06,881\n已經有這樣的特殊規定你又要執行已經很久沒有執行的軍法官的這個系統那現在現行已經執行到有一點經驗的法院那你為什麼要這樣子做沒有效度的一個事情包委員這個其實就是整體來看就是從平時以外暫時因為我們暫時還是軍法官要回到這個審判室工作所以看起來我們好像沒有辦法溝通嘛對吧\n\n19\n00:07:07,721 --> 00:07:23,975\n你們一直想著暫時然後軍閥可是現在在過渡的時期其實也有一些機制去做處理那為什麼不就目前已經累積相關機制的這個系統來做未來有可能延伸的一個處理所以這個是不是請你們跨部會把這樣子的一個邏輯帶進去好嗎是謝謝委員\n\n20\n00:07:28,851 --> 00:07:35,700\n好謝謝接下來國防部的相關人員國防部的代表對不起\n\n21\n00:07:40,253 --> 00:07:41,294\n請問國防部這個部分你們怎麼來因應呢\n\n22\n00:08:04,968 --> 00:08:07,308\n那這個部分我想在兩個單位裡面一直是有一些問題的吧\n\n23\n00:08:18,830 --> 00:08:45,208\n跟向委員報告我是國安部保防安全署處長簡英宏有針對有關我們涉及到共諜案件的人員有87.5%都是由我們官民主動檢舉那有關涉及到我們國軍內部的機密資訊的部分我們都會配合檢調機關針對所外流的資訊都會予以做審認真的嗎對予以提供副秘書長你們確實是都這樣子嗎你覺得呢真的是這樣嗎\n\n24\n00:08:46,108 --> 00:09:08,718\n向委員說明現在截至目前每個個案所外流資訊都是由檢調機關含請國安部來做機密資訊的審認依照審認的各層級我們會同各產製單位以及各聯參實施複審之後提供給檢查機關來與審認來予以拒判處重刑包含畢好謝謝處長這邊那個念台詞好那謝謝啦\n\n25\n00:09:14,125 --> 00:09:32,385\n其實這個東西跟各部會都有很大的關係那我們也知道實際執行上其實有的時候都有一點空法定得很重但是執行的效度上跟執行的實際面確實是有很大的問題所以本席在這邊談一下在司法面我們在刑法第109條到113條\n\n26\n00:09:34,707 --> 00:10:00,754\n已經針對內亂外患罪已經有一些規範了但是共諜案如果沒有軍機或暫時的情節適用性有限所以檢查體系目前仍以國安法刑法或兩岸人民關係條例來進行起訴但是條文的設計跟太陽其實有一些脫節所以就會導致近期的這幾個案件讓人有所質疑那我們知道\n\n27\n00:10:02,254 --> 00:10:22,802\n前行政院長游錫坤的辦公室助理盛楚英一直到總統府的吳尚宇這幾個案件其實都讓人民感到非常的質疑所以像盛楚英僅僅20萬元交保但是他已經長期在接受各種類型的資金的\n\n28\n00:10:24,503 --> 00:10:41,515\n那這個部分以20萬元交保但是卻已經影響在國安法裡面已經有針對敵對勢力發展組織或洩露國家機密者刑期其實是7年以上然後盛楚英這樣子的行為收受外幣或虛擬貨幣的狀況已經持續了6年這難道沒有到一個長期性的一個狀態嗎部長\n\n29\n00:10:51,463 --> 00:11:10,578\n這個刑期跟拒保是不是一定要有一定的連帶關係這個法律沒有這個是兩碼事啦那剛才委員關心就是那個性性人士的那個拒保的一個問題那個拒保20萬那個拒保最主要是羈押的替代處分\n\n30\n00:11:11,539 --> 00:11:24,570\n他是認為沒有羈押的必要就用保證金的方式來防止他的一個仿討這是仿討的一個機制是一個保全證我們知道這其實是為了防止潛逃跟滅證的風險我想陳辦的檢察官\n\n31\n00:11:30,656 --> 00:11:45,149\n我想他會就個案以及證據收集的來做一個以及他的必要性來做一個認定那個有沒有羈押必要就刑事訴訟101條的一個規定如果有羈押的必要我想檢察會申請法院來羈押\n\n32\n00:11:46,110 --> 00:12:05,137\n所以這個其實這樣子的結果其實帶給外界很多的質疑所以我們知道您為了防止潛逃跟滅政然後在國安的案件裡面有沒有仍然可能跟敵對勢力保持聯絡或者是其組織的殘餘接觸的能力還有動用地下資金逃亡的這個管道我想這個應該都要納入風險評估的\n\n33\n00:12:08,258 --> 00:12:22,967\n最後因為時間的關係本席還是語重心長的做一個提醒我們現行的國家安全法反滲透法還有刑法內亂外患規範雖然構成某一些條件但檢查體系對於所謂的敵對勢力的矩陣認定\n\n34\n00:12:25,748 --> 00:12:50,444\n與標準還有相關單位證據提供的一個適宜性我想這應該都是各部會要好好的來做一個系統性處理的才不會讓我們在整個法條上好像高法條但是低適用那整個處理出來的狀態其實讓人民對於法治教育其實產生了很多信心的危機好那以上請各部門好好的做一個討論好嗎好謝謝謝謝委員好\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8973\t20524\t謝謝主席福音同仁大家好我現在請司法院副秘書長和法務部部長還有國防部兩位處長國防部今天的代表國防部代表\n35425\t57422\t主席 大家好我們今天就是因為我們來共同面對這個共諜滲透的一個狀況然後來探討我們軍事審判跟國安體系的一個落差所以今天這個軍事審判制度跟國安執法的這個缺口我想希望透過今天大家來探討然後再做一個系統性的一個處理跟改革\n58743\t86138\t剛才在報告裡面 鳳姨書長也談到了2013年修法之後基本上我們的軍事審判已經大幅轉向平時的法院的一個管轄在暫時才會回復軍閥系統但是為了配合過渡跟備戰的需要其實在現在的整個軍事審判法的第五條第二項規定地方法院也設如您所講的專庭跟專股來負責國防安全跟軍機有關的特殊案件\n86798\t105519\t那現在這個制度大概實行了多少年了?軍事審判庭運作的情形又如何呢?兩位從那個103年1月13號開始到現在11年嗎?11年多對 如您報告所講的那運作的情形如何呢?\n107837\t125073\t運作情形我們目前都成立那個專庭跟那個專股然後那個有專門的那個法官那法官也要接受那個培訓是這個您剛才在報告裡面有講過這個運作上有沒有什麼樣子的一個需要討論跟改變的空間呢\n127127\t150610\t目前就是大家比較關心的就是說那個量刑量刑是不是就是符合那個外界那個期待那這個在那個108年的時候有一個重要的一個關鍵點是那個在國安法那個修法之後呢法定刑已經大幅那個提高了那之後所以這個除了量刑以外你們對於其他的目前這個狀況都沒有覺得有什麼需要再處理的嗎\n151691\t166247\t當然就是說法官的那個賠率也必須再更那個一步那個精進那另外就是說像有些那個案件對於就是說譬如說是不是那個機密那個鑑定啊這個部分我想也要跟就是他在時間上或者說專業上也必須跟這可能就跟相關的部會有一點關係嘛\n171192\t193510\t所以如果照您這樣所講我們整個軍事審判的專庭已經運作了很多年那目前看起來好像沒有需要回復軍事審判庭的必要嘛所以你們也有我們運作多年目前的狀況好像還持平嘛那案件呢基本上也非常熟悉了嘛處理案件的狀況也非常熟悉了嘛然後你們每年都會有這個軍法的訓練還有一些暫時演練的課程嘛如您所講的十二個學分\n198294\t212964\t然後再來在軍刑法呢也有暫時的一個特殊的規定所以這個軍事法庭還需要再這樣子回覆嗎本席這邊有一些質疑跟懷疑的所以這個是不是請你們再做一個探討\n214585\t241998\t那這邊談到一個也請那個法務部這邊一起來了解本席所講的軍方的訓練是為了領導統一因此會採取上命下從但是審判的制度呢是必須要獨立所以獨立審判者不能受到上級命令或指導更不可以被其他勢力所影響那這個是軍方做不到的所以您怎麼看待現在這件事情\n243973\t268898\t那個軍事審判是否要恢復到整個要修法要恢復到部分的一些的那我們是這不是我們法務部主管的法規那我想您的看法呢您的看法我想這邊我不談我個人看法這是一個國家的那個軍事審判的一個政策的一個一個是否合乎到現實的一個需要那這邊我們都尊重這個整個一個一個全職警務就國安部\n269358\t288209\t的一個決定所以司法院法務部都尊重相關的這個單位那國防部要不要因為這個不是我們主管的法規這個軍事審判法及相關的這些法令它的主管機關都是國防部但是這相關的系統都跟你們有關啊國防部的代表要不要來回應一下\n292335\t316831\t委員好,我是國防部法律司法紀大樓處處長王振宜就剛剛委員所提過的部分,軍事審判制度是否恢復的部分,回應如下第一個,總統在3月13號宣示的這個恢復軍事審判的一個相關的一個條件之下其實本部在當天的記者會上也有強調在說明就是說其實就現行的軍事審判法來看的話,暫時還是要恢復軍事審判\n318072\t338787\t那恢復軍事審判還是由軍法官來從事相關的審判工作本席這邊提醒你們一下在你們公告的這件事情之後呢其實我們還有所謂軍法官的這個問題那軍法官從先前整個業務移撥到這個法院之後呢專股專庭他們也已經差不多熟悉了那你們軍法官的運作有多久沒有運作了\n339868\t352342\t應該有11年103年開始就沒有再從事那如果都沒有再運作你覺得現在適宜嗎包委員這個部分其實我們有在同步規劃就是未來如果恢復軍事審判的話我們就軍法官的訓練部分會協請\n354184\t383545\t司法院及法務部給予我們那為什麼不像現在這樣子的現狀處理就好了因為就是剛剛有提到暫時審判的部分還是需要有審判制度未來規劃還是由軍法官來從事那軍法官就如您所講的十幾年沒有運作但是在法院呢在專股或專庭的運作上已經也有一些經驗了那為什麼不就現行的這個體制去做處理又要回復在過去民進黨政府一直非常反對的軍事審判\n384205\t397905\t包委員因為這個其實在審判制度有兩個就是平時跟暫時的兩個制度那現在是就平時的部分來做一個轉換那暫時如果本席所講的軍刑法也有一些暫時的特殊規定\n400366\t426881\t已經有這樣的特殊規定你又要執行已經很久沒有執行的軍法官的這個系統那現在現行已經執行到有一點經驗的法院那你為什麼要這樣子做沒有效度的一個事情包委員這個其實就是整體來看就是從平時以外暫時因為我們暫時還是軍法官要回到這個審判室工作所以看起來我們好像沒有辦法溝通嘛 對吧\n427721\t443975\t你們一直想著暫時然後軍閥可是現在在過渡的時期其實也有一些機制去做處理那為什麼不就目前已經累積相關機制的這個系統來做未來有可能延伸的一個處理所以這個是不是請你們跨部會把這樣子的一個邏輯帶進去好嗎是 謝謝委員\n448851\t455700\t好 謝謝接下來國防部的相關人員國防部的代表對不起\n460253\t461294\t請問國防部這個部分你們怎麼來因應呢\n484968\t487308\t那這個部分我想在兩個單位裡面一直是有一些問題的吧\n498830\t525208\t跟向委員報告我是國安部保防安全署處長簡英宏有針對有關我們涉及到共諜案件的人員有87.5%都是由我們官民主動檢舉那有關涉及到我們國軍內部的機密資訊的部分我們都會配合檢調機關針對所外流的資訊都會予以做審認真的嗎對 予以提供副秘書長 你們確實是都這樣子嗎你覺得呢 真的是這樣嗎\n526108\t548718\t向委員說明現在截至目前每個個案所外流資訊都是由檢調機關含請國安部來做機密資訊的審認依照審認的各層級我們會同各產製單位以及各聯參實施複審之後提供給檢查機關來與審認來予以拒判處重刑包含畢好謝謝處長這邊那個念台詞好那謝謝啦\n554125\t572385\t其實這個東西跟各部會都有很大的關係那我們也知道實際執行上其實有的時候都有一點空法定得很重但是執行的效度上跟執行的實際面確實是有很大的問題所以本席在這邊談一下在司法面我們在刑法第109條到113條\n574707\t600754\t已經針對內亂外患罪已經有一些規範了但是共諜案如果沒有軍機或暫時的情節適用性有限所以檢查體系目前仍以國安法刑法或兩岸人民關係條例來進行起訴但是條文的設計跟太陽其實有一些脫節所以就會導致近期的這幾個案件讓人有所質疑那我們知道\n602254\t622802\t前行政院長游錫坤的辦公室助理盛楚英一直到總統府的吳尚宇這幾個案件其實都讓人民感到非常的質疑所以像盛楚英僅僅20萬元交保但是他已經長期在接受各種類型的資金的\n624503\t641515\t那這個部分以20萬元交保但是卻已經影響在國安法裡面已經有針對敵對勢力發展組織或洩露國家機密者刑期其實是7年以上然後盛楚英這樣子的行為收受外幣或虛擬貨幣的狀況已經持續了6年這難道沒有到一個長期性的一個狀態嗎部長\n651463\t670578\t這個刑期跟拒保是不是一定要有一定的連帶關係這個法律沒有 這個是兩碼事啦那剛才委員關心就是那個性性人士的那個拒保的一個問題那個拒保20萬 那個拒保最主要是羈押的替代處分\n671539\t684570\t他是認為沒有羈押的必要就用保證金的方式來防止他的一個仿討這是仿討的一個機制是一個保全證我們知道這其實是為了防止潛逃跟滅證的風險我想陳辦的檢察官\n690656\t705149\t我想他會就個案以及證據收集的來做一個以及他的必要性來做一個認定那個有沒有羈押必要就刑事訴訟101條的一個規定如果有羈押的必要我想檢察會申請法院來羈押\n706110\t725137\t所以這個其實這樣子的結果其實帶給外界很多的質疑所以我們知道您為了防止潛逃跟滅政然後在國安的案件裡面有沒有仍然可能跟敵對勢力保持聯絡或者是其組織的殘餘接觸的能力還有動用地下資金逃亡的這個管道我想這個應該都要納入風險評估的\n728258\t742967\t最後因為時間的關係本席還是語重心長的做一個提醒我們現行的國家安全法反滲透法還有刑法內亂外患規範雖然構成某一些條件但檢查體系對於所謂的敵對勢力的矩陣認定\n745748\t770444\t與標準還有相關單位證據提供的一個適宜性我想這應該都是各部會要好好的來做一個系統性處理的才不會讓我們在整個法條上好像高法條但是低適用那整個處理出來的狀態其實讓人民對於法治教育其實產生了很多信心的危機好那以上請各部門好好的做一個討論好嗎好謝謝謝謝委員好\n","txt":"謝謝主席福音同仁大家好我現在請司法院副秘書長和法務部部長還有國防部兩位處長國防部今天的代表國防部代表\n主席 大家好我們今天就是因為我們來共同面對這個共諜滲透的一個狀況然後來探討我們軍事審判跟國安體系的一個落差所以今天這個軍事審判制度跟國安執法的這個缺口我想希望透過今天大家來探討然後再做一個系統性的一個處理跟改革\n剛才在報告裡面 鳳姨書長也談到了2013年修法之後基本上我們的軍事審判已經大幅轉向平時的法院的一個管轄在暫時才會回復軍閥系統但是為了配合過渡跟備戰的需要其實在現在的整個軍事審判法的第五條第二項規定地方法院也設如您所講的專庭跟專股來負責國防安全跟軍機有關的特殊案件\n那現在這個制度大概實行了多少年了?軍事審判庭運作的情形又如何呢?兩位從那個103年1月13號開始到現在11年嗎?11年多對 如您報告所講的那運作的情形如何呢?\n運作情形我們目前都成立那個專庭跟那個專股然後那個有專門的那個法官那法官也要接受那個培訓是這個您剛才在報告裡面有講過這個運作上有沒有什麼樣子的一個需要討論跟改變的空間呢\n目前就是大家比較關心的就是說那個量刑量刑是不是就是符合那個外界那個期待那這個在那個108年的時候有一個重要的一個關鍵點是那個在國安法那個修法之後呢法定刑已經大幅那個提高了那之後所以這個除了量刑以外你們對於其他的目前這個狀況都沒有覺得有什麼需要再處理的嗎\n當然就是說法官的那個賠率也必須再更那個一步那個精進那另外就是說像有些那個案件對於就是說譬如說是不是那個機密那個鑑定啊這個部分我想也要跟就是他在時間上或者說專業上也必須跟這可能就跟相關的部會有一點關係嘛\n所以如果照您這樣所講我們整個軍事審判的專庭已經運作了很多年那目前看起來好像沒有需要回復軍事審判庭的必要嘛所以你們也有我們運作多年目前的狀況好像還持平嘛那案件呢基本上也非常熟悉了嘛處理案件的狀況也非常熟悉了嘛然後你們每年都會有這個軍法的訓練還有一些暫時演練的課程嘛如您所講的十二個學分\n然後再來在軍刑法呢也有暫時的一個特殊的規定所以這個軍事法庭還需要再這樣子回覆嗎本席這邊有一些質疑跟懷疑的所以這個是不是請你們再做一個探討\n那這邊談到一個也請那個法務部這邊一起來了解本席所講的軍方的訓練是為了領導統一因此會採取上命下從但是審判的制度呢是必須要獨立所以獨立審判者不能受到上級命令或指導更不可以被其他勢力所影響那這個是軍方做不到的所以您怎麼看待現在這件事情\n那個軍事審判是否要恢復到整個要修法要恢復到部分的一些的那我們是這不是我們法務部主管的法規那我想您的看法呢您的看法我想這邊我不談我個人看法這是一個國家的那個軍事審判的一個政策的一個一個是否合乎到現實的一個需要那這邊我們都尊重這個整個一個一個全職警務就國安部\n的一個決定所以司法院法務部都尊重相關的這個單位那國防部要不要因為這個不是我們主管的法規這個軍事審判法及相關的這些法令它的主管機關都是國防部但是這相關的系統都跟你們有關啊國防部的代表要不要來回應一下\n委員好,我是國防部法律司法紀大樓處處長王振宜就剛剛委員所提過的部分,軍事審判制度是否恢復的部分,回應如下第一個,總統在3月13號宣示的這個恢復軍事審判的一個相關的一個條件之下其實本部在當天的記者會上也有強調在說明就是說其實就現行的軍事審判法來看的話,暫時還是要恢復軍事審判\n那恢復軍事審判還是由軍法官來從事相關的審判工作本席這邊提醒你們一下在你們公告的這件事情之後呢其實我們還有所謂軍法官的這個問題那軍法官從先前整個業務移撥到這個法院之後呢專股專庭他們也已經差不多熟悉了那你們軍法官的運作有多久沒有運作了\n應該有11年103年開始就沒有再從事那如果都沒有再運作你覺得現在適宜嗎包委員這個部分其實我們有在同步規劃就是未來如果恢復軍事審判的話我們就軍法官的訓練部分會協請\n司法院及法務部給予我們那為什麼不像現在這樣子的現狀處理就好了因為就是剛剛有提到暫時審判的部分還是需要有審判制度未來規劃還是由軍法官來從事那軍法官就如您所講的十幾年沒有運作但是在法院呢在專股或專庭的運作上已經也有一些經驗了那為什麼不就現行的這個體制去做處理又要回復在過去民進黨政府一直非常反對的軍事審判\n包委員因為這個其實在審判制度有兩個就是平時跟暫時的兩個制度那現在是就平時的部分來做一個轉換那暫時如果本席所講的軍刑法也有一些暫時的特殊規定\n已經有這樣的特殊規定你又要執行已經很久沒有執行的軍法官的這個系統那現在現行已經執行到有一點經驗的法院那你為什麼要這樣子做沒有效度的一個事情包委員這個其實就是整體來看就是從平時以外暫時因為我們暫時還是軍法官要回到這個審判室工作所以看起來我們好像沒有辦法溝通嘛 對吧\n你們一直想著暫時然後軍閥可是現在在過渡的時期其實也有一些機制去做處理那為什麼不就目前已經累積相關機制的這個系統來做未來有可能延伸的一個處理所以這個是不是請你們跨部會把這樣子的一個邏輯帶進去好嗎是 謝謝委員\n好 謝謝接下來國防部的相關人員國防部的代表對不起\n請問國防部這個部分你們怎麼來因應呢\n那這個部分我想在兩個單位裡面一直是有一些問題的吧\n跟向委員報告我是國安部保防安全署處長簡英宏有針對有關我們涉及到共諜案件的人員有87.5%都是由我們官民主動檢舉那有關涉及到我們國軍內部的機密資訊的部分我們都會配合檢調機關針對所外流的資訊都會予以做審認真的嗎對 予以提供副秘書長 你們確實是都這樣子嗎你覺得呢 真的是這樣嗎\n向委員說明現在截至目前每個個案所外流資訊都是由檢調機關含請國安部來做機密資訊的審認依照審認的各層級我們會同各產製單位以及各聯參實施複審之後提供給檢查機關來與審認來予以拒判處重刑包含畢好謝謝處長這邊那個念台詞好那謝謝啦\n其實這個東西跟各部會都有很大的關係那我們也知道實際執行上其實有的時候都有一點空法定得很重但是執行的效度上跟執行的實際面確實是有很大的問題所以本席在這邊談一下在司法面我們在刑法第109條到113條\n已經針對內亂外患罪已經有一些規範了但是共諜案如果沒有軍機或暫時的情節適用性有限所以檢查體系目前仍以國安法刑法或兩岸人民關係條例來進行起訴但是條文的設計跟太陽其實有一些脫節所以就會導致近期的這幾個案件讓人有所質疑那我們知道\n前行政院長游錫坤的辦公室助理盛楚英一直到總統府的吳尚宇這幾個案件其實都讓人民感到非常的質疑所以像盛楚英僅僅20萬元交保但是他已經長期在接受各種類型的資金的\n那這個部分以20萬元交保但是卻已經影響在國安法裡面已經有針對敵對勢力發展組織或洩露國家機密者刑期其實是7年以上然後盛楚英這樣子的行為收受外幣或虛擬貨幣的狀況已經持續了6年這難道沒有到一個長期性的一個狀態嗎部長\n這個刑期跟拒保是不是一定要有一定的連帶關係這個法律沒有 這個是兩碼事啦那剛才委員關心就是那個性性人士的那個拒保的一個問題那個拒保20萬 那個拒保最主要是羈押的替代處分\n他是認為沒有羈押的必要就用保證金的方式來防止他的一個仿討這是仿討的一個機制是一個保全證我們知道這其實是為了防止潛逃跟滅證的風險我想陳辦的檢察官\n我想他會就個案以及證據收集的來做一個以及他的必要性來做一個認定那個有沒有羈押必要就刑事訴訟101條的一個規定如果有羈押的必要我想檢察會申請法院來羈押\n所以這個其實這樣子的結果其實帶給外界很多的質疑所以我們知道您為了防止潛逃跟滅政然後在國安的案件裡面有沒有仍然可能跟敵對勢力保持聯絡或者是其組織的殘餘接觸的能力還有動用地下資金逃亡的這個管道我想這個應該都要納入風險評估的\n最後因為時間的關係本席還是語重心長的做一個提醒我們現行的國家安全法反滲透法還有刑法內亂外患規範雖然構成某一些條件但檢查體系對於所謂的敵對勢力的矩陣認定\n與標準還有相關單位證據提供的一個適宜性我想這應該都是各部會要好好的來做一個系統性處理的才不會讓我們在整個法條上好像高法條但是低適用那整個處理出來的狀態其實讓人民對於法治教育其實產生了很多信心的危機好那以上請各部門好好的做一個討論好嗎好謝謝謝謝委員好\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.973 --> 00:20.524\n謝謝主席福音同仁大家好我現在請司法院副秘書長和法務部部長還有國防部兩位處長國防部今天的代表國防部代表\n\n00:35.425 --> 00:57.422\n主席大家好我們今天就是因為我們來共同面對這個共諜滲透的一個狀況然後來探討我們軍事審判跟國安體系的一個落差所以今天這個軍事審判制度跟國安執法的這個缺口我想希望透過今天大家來探討然後再做一個系統性的一個處理跟改革\n\n00:58.743 --> 01:26.138\n剛才在報告裡面鳳姨書長也談到了2013年修法之後基本上我們的軍事審判已經大幅轉向平時的法院的一個管轄在暫時才會回復軍閥系統但是為了配合過渡跟備戰的需要其實在現在的整個軍事審判法的第五條第二項規定地方法院也設如您所講的專庭跟專股來負責國防安全跟軍機有關的特殊案件\n\n01:26.798 --> 01:45.519\n那現在這個制度大概實行了多少年了?軍事審判庭運作的情形又如何呢?兩位從那個103年1月13號開始到現在11年嗎?11年多對如您報告所講的那運作的情形如何呢?\n\n01:47.837 --> 02:05.073\n運作情形我們目前都成立那個專庭跟那個專股然後那個有專門的那個法官那法官也要接受那個培訓是這個您剛才在報告裡面有講過這個運作上有沒有什麼樣子的一個需要討論跟改變的空間呢\n\n02:07.127 --> 02:30.610\n目前就是大家比較關心的就是說那個量刑量刑是不是就是符合那個外界那個期待那這個在那個108年的時候有一個重要的一個關鍵點是那個在國安法那個修法之後呢法定刑已經大幅那個提高了那之後所以這個除了量刑以外你們對於其他的目前這個狀況都沒有覺得有什麼需要再處理的嗎\n\n02:31.691 --> 02:46.247\n當然就是說法官的那個賠率也必須再更那個一步那個精進那另外就是說像有些那個案件對於就是說譬如說是不是那個機密那個鑑定啊這個部分我想也要跟就是他在時間上或者說專業上也必須跟這可能就跟相關的部會有一點關係嘛\n\n02:51.192 --> 03:13.510\n所以如果照您這樣所講我們整個軍事審判的專庭已經運作了很多年那目前看起來好像沒有需要回復軍事審判庭的必要嘛所以你們也有我們運作多年目前的狀況好像還持平嘛那案件呢基本上也非常熟悉了嘛處理案件的狀況也非常熟悉了嘛然後你們每年都會有這個軍法的訓練還有一些暫時演練的課程嘛如您所講的十二個學分\n\n03:18.294 --> 03:32.964\n然後再來在軍刑法呢也有暫時的一個特殊的規定所以這個軍事法庭還需要再這樣子回覆嗎本席這邊有一些質疑跟懷疑的所以這個是不是請你們再做一個探討\n\n03:34.585 --> 04:01.998\n那這邊談到一個也請那個法務部這邊一起來了解本席所講的軍方的訓練是為了領導統一因此會採取上命下從但是審判的制度呢是必須要獨立所以獨立審判者不能受到上級命令或指導更不可以被其他勢力所影響那這個是軍方做不到的所以您怎麼看待現在這件事情\n\n04:03.973 --> 04:28.898\n那個軍事審判是否要恢復到整個要修法要恢復到部分的一些的那我們是這不是我們法務部主管的法規那我想您的看法呢您的看法我想這邊我不談我個人看法這是一個國家的那個軍事審判的一個政策的一個一個是否合乎到現實的一個需要那這邊我們都尊重這個整個一個一個全職警務就國安部\n\n04:29.358 --> 04:48.209\n的一個決定所以司法院法務部都尊重相關的這個單位那國防部要不要因為這個不是我們主管的法規這個軍事審判法及相關的這些法令它的主管機關都是國防部但是這相關的系統都跟你們有關啊國防部的代表要不要來回應一下\n\n04:52.335 --> 05:16.831\n委員好,我是國防部法律司法紀大樓處處長王振宜就剛剛委員所提過的部分,軍事審判制度是否恢復的部分,回應如下第一個,總統在3月13號宣示的這個恢復軍事審判的一個相關的一個條件之下其實本部在當天的記者會上也有強調在說明就是說其實就現行的軍事審判法來看的話,暫時還是要恢復軍事審判\n\n05:18.072 --> 05:38.787\n那恢復軍事審判還是由軍法官來從事相關的審判工作本席這邊提醒你們一下在你們公告的這件事情之後呢其實我們還有所謂軍法官的這個問題那軍法官從先前整個業務移撥到這個法院之後呢專股專庭他們也已經差不多熟悉了那你們軍法官的運作有多久沒有運作了\n\n05:39.868 --> 05:52.342\n應該有11年103年開始就沒有再從事那如果都沒有再運作你覺得現在適宜嗎包委員這個部分其實我們有在同步規劃就是未來如果恢復軍事審判的話我們就軍法官的訓練部分會協請\n\n05:54.184 --> 06:23.545\n司法院及法務部給予我們那為什麼不像現在這樣子的現狀處理就好了因為就是剛剛有提到暫時審判的部分還是需要有審判制度未來規劃還是由軍法官來從事那軍法官就如您所講的十幾年沒有運作但是在法院呢在專股或專庭的運作上已經也有一些經驗了那為什麼不就現行的這個體制去做處理又要回復在過去民進黨政府一直非常反對的軍事審判\n\n06:24.205 --> 06:37.905\n包委員因為這個其實在審判制度有兩個就是平時跟暫時的兩個制度那現在是就平時的部分來做一個轉換那暫時如果本席所講的軍刑法也有一些暫時的特殊規定\n\n06:40.366 --> 07:06.881\n已經有這樣的特殊規定你又要執行已經很久沒有執行的軍法官的這個系統那現在現行已經執行到有一點經驗的法院那你為什麼要這樣子做沒有效度的一個事情包委員這個其實就是整體來看就是從平時以外暫時因為我們暫時還是軍法官要回到這個審判室工作所以看起來我們好像沒有辦法溝通嘛對吧\n\n07:07.721 --> 07:23.975\n你們一直想著暫時然後軍閥可是現在在過渡的時期其實也有一些機制去做處理那為什麼不就目前已經累積相關機制的這個系統來做未來有可能延伸的一個處理所以這個是不是請你們跨部會把這樣子的一個邏輯帶進去好嗎是謝謝委員\n\n07:28.851 --> 07:35.700\n好謝謝接下來國防部的相關人員國防部的代表對不起\n\n07:40.253 --> 07:41.294\n請問國防部這個部分你們怎麼來因應呢\n\n08:04.968 --> 08:07.308\n那這個部分我想在兩個單位裡面一直是有一些問題的吧\n\n08:18.830 --> 08:45.208\n跟向委員報告我是國安部保防安全署處長簡英宏有針對有關我們涉及到共諜案件的人員有87.5%都是由我們官民主動檢舉那有關涉及到我們國軍內部的機密資訊的部分我們都會配合檢調機關針對所外流的資訊都會予以做審認真的嗎對予以提供副秘書長你們確實是都這樣子嗎你覺得呢真的是這樣嗎\n\n08:46.108 --> 09:08.718\n向委員說明現在截至目前每個個案所外流資訊都是由檢調機關含請國安部來做機密資訊的審認依照審認的各層級我們會同各產製單位以及各聯參實施複審之後提供給檢查機關來與審認來予以拒判處重刑包含畢好謝謝處長這邊那個念台詞好那謝謝啦\n\n09:14.125 --> 09:32.385\n其實這個東西跟各部會都有很大的關係那我們也知道實際執行上其實有的時候都有一點空法定得很重但是執行的效度上跟執行的實際面確實是有很大的問題所以本席在這邊談一下在司法面我們在刑法第109條到113條\n\n09:34.707 --> 10:00.754\n已經針對內亂外患罪已經有一些規範了但是共諜案如果沒有軍機或暫時的情節適用性有限所以檢查體系目前仍以國安法刑法或兩岸人民關係條例來進行起訴但是條文的設計跟太陽其實有一些脫節所以就會導致近期的這幾個案件讓人有所質疑那我們知道\n\n10:02.254 --> 10:22.802\n前行政院長游錫坤的辦公室助理盛楚英一直到總統府的吳尚宇這幾個案件其實都讓人民感到非常的質疑所以像盛楚英僅僅20萬元交保但是他已經長期在接受各種類型的資金的\n\n10:24.503 --> 10:41.515\n那這個部分以20萬元交保但是卻已經影響在國安法裡面已經有針對敵對勢力發展組織或洩露國家機密者刑期其實是7年以上然後盛楚英這樣子的行為收受外幣或虛擬貨幣的狀況已經持續了6年這難道沒有到一個長期性的一個狀態嗎部長\n\n10:51.463 --> 11:10.578\n這個刑期跟拒保是不是一定要有一定的連帶關係這個法律沒有這個是兩碼事啦那剛才委員關心就是那個性性人士的那個拒保的一個問題那個拒保20萬那個拒保最主要是羈押的替代處分\n\n11:11.539 --> 11:24.570\n他是認為沒有羈押的必要就用保證金的方式來防止他的一個仿討這是仿討的一個機制是一個保全證我們知道這其實是為了防止潛逃跟滅證的風險我想陳辦的檢察官\n\n11:30.656 --> 11:45.149\n我想他會就個案以及證據收集的來做一個以及他的必要性來做一個認定那個有沒有羈押必要就刑事訴訟101條的一個規定如果有羈押的必要我想檢察會申請法院來羈押\n\n11:46.110 --> 12:05.137\n所以這個其實這樣子的結果其實帶給外界很多的質疑所以我們知道您為了防止潛逃跟滅政然後在國安的案件裡面有沒有仍然可能跟敵對勢力保持聯絡或者是其組織的殘餘接觸的能力還有動用地下資金逃亡的這個管道我想這個應該都要納入風險評估的\n\n12:08.258 --> 12:22.967\n最後因為時間的關係本席還是語重心長的做一個提醒我們現行的國家安全法反滲透法還有刑法內亂外患規範雖然構成某一些條件但檢查體系對於所謂的敵對勢力的矩陣認定\n\n12:25.748 --> 12:50.444\n與標準還有相關單位證據提供的一個適宜性我想這應該都是各部會要好好的來做一個系統性處理的才不會讓我們在整個法條上好像高法條但是低適用那整個處理出來的狀態其實讓人民對於法治教育其實產生了很多信心的危機好那以上請各部門好好的做一個討論好嗎好謝謝謝謝委員好\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.973,"end":20.524,"text":"謝謝主席福音同仁大家好我現在請司法院副秘書長和法務部部長還有國防部兩位處長國防部今天的代表國防部代表"},{"start":35.425,"end":57.422,"text":"主席 大家好我們今天就是因為我們來共同面對這個共諜滲透的一個狀況然後來探討我們軍事審判跟國安體系的一個落差所以今天這個軍事審判制度跟國安執法的這個缺口我想希望透過今天大家來探討然後再做一個系統性的一個處理跟改革"},{"start":58.743,"end":86.138,"text":"剛才在報告裡面 鳳姨書長也談到了2013年修法之後基本上我們的軍事審判已經大幅轉向平時的法院的一個管轄在暫時才會回復軍閥系統但是為了配合過渡跟備戰的需要其實在現在的整個軍事審判法的第五條第二項規定地方法院也設如您所講的專庭跟專股來負責國防安全跟軍機有關的特殊案件"},{"start":86.798,"end":105.519,"text":"那現在這個制度大概實行了多少年了?軍事審判庭運作的情形又如何呢?兩位從那個103年1月13號開始到現在11年嗎?11年多對 如您報告所講的那運作的情形如何呢?"},{"start":107.837,"end":125.073,"text":"運作情形我們目前都成立那個專庭跟那個專股然後那個有專門的那個法官那法官也要接受那個培訓是這個您剛才在報告裡面有講過這個運作上有沒有什麼樣子的一個需要討論跟改變的空間呢"},{"start":127.127,"end":150.61,"text":"目前就是大家比較關心的就是說那個量刑量刑是不是就是符合那個外界那個期待那這個在那個108年的時候有一個重要的一個關鍵點是那個在國安法那個修法之後呢法定刑已經大幅那個提高了那之後所以這個除了量刑以外你們對於其他的目前這個狀況都沒有覺得有什麼需要再處理的嗎"},{"start":151.691,"end":166.247,"text":"當然就是說法官的那個賠率也必須再更那個一步那個精進那另外就是說像有些那個案件對於就是說譬如說是不是那個機密那個鑑定啊這個部分我想也要跟就是他在時間上或者說專業上也必須跟這可能就跟相關的部會有一點關係嘛"},{"start":171.192,"end":193.51,"text":"所以如果照您這樣所講我們整個軍事審判的專庭已經運作了很多年那目前看起來好像沒有需要回復軍事審判庭的必要嘛所以你們也有我們運作多年目前的狀況好像還持平嘛那案件呢基本上也非常熟悉了嘛處理案件的狀況也非常熟悉了嘛然後你們每年都會有這個軍法的訓練還有一些暫時演練的課程嘛如您所講的十二個學分"},{"start":198.294,"end":212.964,"text":"然後再來在軍刑法呢也有暫時的一個特殊的規定所以這個軍事法庭還需要再這樣子回覆嗎本席這邊有一些質疑跟懷疑的所以這個是不是請你們再做一個探討"},{"start":214.585,"end":241.998,"text":"那這邊談到一個也請那個法務部這邊一起來了解本席所講的軍方的訓練是為了領導統一因此會採取上命下從但是審判的制度呢是必須要獨立所以獨立審判者不能受到上級命令或指導更不可以被其他勢力所影響那這個是軍方做不到的所以您怎麼看待現在這件事情"},{"start":243.973,"end":268.898,"text":"那個軍事審判是否要恢復到整個要修法要恢復到部分的一些的那我們是這不是我們法務部主管的法規那我想您的看法呢您的看法我想這邊我不談我個人看法這是一個國家的那個軍事審判的一個政策的一個一個是否合乎到現實的一個需要那這邊我們都尊重這個整個一個一個全職警務就國安部"},{"start":269.358,"end":288.209,"text":"的一個決定所以司法院法務部都尊重相關的這個單位那國防部要不要因為這個不是我們主管的法規這個軍事審判法及相關的這些法令它的主管機關都是國防部但是這相關的系統都跟你們有關啊國防部的代表要不要來回應一下"},{"start":292.335,"end":316.831,"text":"委員好,我是國防部法律司法紀大樓處處長王振宜就剛剛委員所提過的部分,軍事審判制度是否恢復的部分,回應如下第一個,總統在3月13號宣示的這個恢復軍事審判的一個相關的一個條件之下其實本部在當天的記者會上也有強調在說明就是說其實就現行的軍事審判法來看的話,暫時還是要恢復軍事審判"},{"start":318.072,"end":338.787,"text":"那恢復軍事審判還是由軍法官來從事相關的審判工作本席這邊提醒你們一下在你們公告的這件事情之後呢其實我們還有所謂軍法官的這個問題那軍法官從先前整個業務移撥到這個法院之後呢專股專庭他們也已經差不多熟悉了那你們軍法官的運作有多久沒有運作了"},{"start":339.868,"end":352.342,"text":"應該有11年103年開始就沒有再從事那如果都沒有再運作你覺得現在適宜嗎包委員這個部分其實我們有在同步規劃就是未來如果恢復軍事審判的話我們就軍法官的訓練部分會協請"},{"start":354.184,"end":383.545,"text":"司法院及法務部給予我們那為什麼不像現在這樣子的現狀處理就好了因為就是剛剛有提到暫時審判的部分還是需要有審判制度未來規劃還是由軍法官來從事那軍法官就如您所講的十幾年沒有運作但是在法院呢在專股或專庭的運作上已經也有一些經驗了那為什麼不就現行的這個體制去做處理又要回復在過去民進黨政府一直非常反對的軍事審判"},{"start":384.205,"end":397.905,"text":"包委員因為這個其實在審判制度有兩個就是平時跟暫時的兩個制度那現在是就平時的部分來做一個轉換那暫時如果本席所講的軍刑法也有一些暫時的特殊規定"},{"start":400.366,"end":426.881,"text":"已經有這樣的特殊規定你又要執行已經很久沒有執行的軍法官的這個系統那現在現行已經執行到有一點經驗的法院那你為什麼要這樣子做沒有效度的一個事情包委員這個其實就是整體來看就是從平時以外暫時因為我們暫時還是軍法官要回到這個審判室工作所以看起來我們好像沒有辦法溝通嘛 對吧"},{"start":427.721,"end":443.975,"text":"你們一直想著暫時然後軍閥可是現在在過渡的時期其實也有一些機制去做處理那為什麼不就目前已經累積相關機制的這個系統來做未來有可能延伸的一個處理所以這個是不是請你們跨部會把這樣子的一個邏輯帶進去好嗎是 謝謝委員"},{"start":448.851,"end":455.7,"text":"好 謝謝接下來國防部的相關人員國防部的代表對不起"},{"start":460.253,"end":461.294,"text":"請問國防部這個部分你們怎麼來因應呢"},{"start":484.968,"end":487.308,"text":"那這個部分我想在兩個單位裡面一直是有一些問題的吧"},{"start":498.83,"end":525.208,"text":"跟向委員報告我是國安部保防安全署處長簡英宏有針對有關我們涉及到共諜案件的人員有87.5%都是由我們官民主動檢舉那有關涉及到我們國軍內部的機密資訊的部分我們都會配合檢調機關針對所外流的資訊都會予以做審認真的嗎對 予以提供副秘書長 你們確實是都這樣子嗎你覺得呢 真的是這樣嗎"},{"start":526.108,"end":548.718,"text":"向委員說明現在截至目前每個個案所外流資訊都是由檢調機關含請國安部來做機密資訊的審認依照審認的各層級我們會同各產製單位以及各聯參實施複審之後提供給檢查機關來與審認來予以拒判處重刑包含畢好謝謝處長這邊那個念台詞好那謝謝啦"},{"start":554.125,"end":572.385,"text":"其實這個東西跟各部會都有很大的關係那我們也知道實際執行上其實有的時候都有一點空法定得很重但是執行的效度上跟執行的實際面確實是有很大的問題所以本席在這邊談一下在司法面我們在刑法第109條到113條"},{"start":574.707,"end":600.754,"text":"已經針對內亂外患罪已經有一些規範了但是共諜案如果沒有軍機或暫時的情節適用性有限所以檢查體系目前仍以國安法刑法或兩岸人民關係條例來進行起訴但是條文的設計跟太陽其實有一些脫節所以就會導致近期的這幾個案件讓人有所質疑那我們知道"},{"start":602.254,"end":622.802,"text":"前行政院長游錫坤的辦公室助理盛楚英一直到總統府的吳尚宇這幾個案件其實都讓人民感到非常的質疑所以像盛楚英僅僅20萬元交保但是他已經長期在接受各種類型的資金的"},{"start":624.503,"end":641.515,"text":"那這個部分以20萬元交保但是卻已經影響在國安法裡面已經有針對敵對勢力發展組織或洩露國家機密者刑期其實是7年以上然後盛楚英這樣子的行為收受外幣或虛擬貨幣的狀況已經持續了6年這難道沒有到一個長期性的一個狀態嗎部長"},{"start":651.463,"end":670.578,"text":"這個刑期跟拒保是不是一定要有一定的連帶關係這個法律沒有 這個是兩碼事啦那剛才委員關心就是那個性性人士的那個拒保的一個問題那個拒保20萬 那個拒保最主要是羈押的替代處分"},{"start":671.539,"end":684.57,"text":"他是認為沒有羈押的必要就用保證金的方式來防止他的一個仿討這是仿討的一個機制是一個保全證我們知道這其實是為了防止潛逃跟滅證的風險我想陳辦的檢察官"},{"start":690.656,"end":705.149,"text":"我想他會就個案以及證據收集的來做一個以及他的必要性來做一個認定那個有沒有羈押必要就刑事訴訟101條的一個規定如果有羈押的必要我想檢察會申請法院來羈押"},{"start":706.11,"end":725.137,"text":"所以這個其實這樣子的結果其實帶給外界很多的質疑所以我們知道您為了防止潛逃跟滅政然後在國安的案件裡面有沒有仍然可能跟敵對勢力保持聯絡或者是其組織的殘餘接觸的能力還有動用地下資金逃亡的這個管道我想這個應該都要納入風險評估的"},{"start":728.258,"end":742.967,"text":"最後因為時間的關係本席還是語重心長的做一個提醒我們現行的國家安全法反滲透法還有刑法內亂外患規範雖然構成某一些條件但檢查體系對於所謂的敵對勢力的矩陣認定"},{"start":745.748,"end":770.444,"text":"與標準還有相關單位證據提供的一個適宜性我想這應該都是各部會要好好的來做一個系統性處理的才不會讓我們在整個法條上好像高法條但是低適用那整個處理出來的狀態其實讓人民對於法治教育其實產生了很多信心的危機好那以上請各部門好好的做一個討論好嗎好謝謝謝謝委員好"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":512,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（9時47分）謝謝主席。府院同仁大家好，我先請司法院的副秘書長和法務部部長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長、部長。"],["林委員倩綺：國防部今天的代表。"],["主席：國防部代表。"],["林委員倩綺：主席，大家好。今天共同面對共諜滲透的狀況，來探討軍事審判跟國安體系的落差、軍事審判制度跟國安執法的缺口，我希望透過大家的探討，做系統性的處理跟改革。剛才在報告裡面，副秘書長談到，2013年修法之後，基本上，軍事審判已經大幅轉向平時法院的管轄，在戰時才會回復軍法系統，但是為了配合過度跟備戰的需要，在現在軍事審判法第五條第二項的規定，地方法院也如您所講的設專庭跟專股，負責國防安全跟軍紀有關的特殊案件，現在這個制度大概實行多少年？軍事審判庭運作的情形又如何？兩位。"],["王副秘書長梅英：從103年1月13號開始到現在。"],["林委員倩綺：11年嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：十一年多。"],["林委員倩綺：如您報告所講的。運作的情形如何？"],["王副秘書長梅英：運作情形，目前都成立專庭跟專股，有專門的法官，法官也要接受培訓。"],["林委員倩綺：是，您剛才在報告裡面有講過，運作上有沒有需要討論跟改變的空間？"],["王副秘書長梅英：目前大家比較關心的是，量刑是不是符合外界的期待，在108年的時候，有個重要的關鍵點是在國安法修法之後，法定刑已經大幅提高。"],["林委員倩綺：所以除了量刑以外，你們對於目前其他狀況都沒有覺得有什麼需要再處理的嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：當然法官的培力也必須再更一步精進，另外有些案件，譬如說，是不是機密鑑定的部分，在時間上或者專業上也必須跟其他相關單位……"],["林委員倩綺：這個可能跟其他相關部會有一點關係。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是、是、是。"],["林委員倩綺：所以如果照您所講，軍事審判的專庭已經運作很多年，目前看起來也沒有需要回復軍事審判庭的必要，運作多年的狀況好像還持平，處理案件的狀況也非常熟悉，然後你們每年都有軍法的訓練，還有一些戰時演練的課程，如您所講的12個學分。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是、是。"],["林委員倩綺：再來，軍刑法也有戰時的特殊規定，所以軍事法庭還需要再回復嗎？本席有一些質疑跟懷疑，是不是請你們再做探討？也請法務部一起來瞭解本席所講的，軍方的訓練是為了領導統御，因此會採取上命下從，但是審判的制度必須要獨立，審判者不能受到上級命令或指導，更不可以被其他勢力所影響，這是軍方做不到的，所以您怎麼看待現在這件事情？"],["鄭部長銘謙：軍事審判是否整個要修法，這不是法務部主管的法規，我想……"],["林委員倩綺：您的看法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這邊我不談個人看法，這是國家軍事審判的政策，是不是合乎現實的需要，我們都尊重權責機關國防部的決定。"],["林委員倩綺：所以司法院、法務部都尊重相關的單位，國防部要不要……"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這不是我們主管的法規，軍事審判法及相關的法令，主管機關都是國防部。"],["林委員倩綺：但是相關的系統都跟你們有關。國防部的代表要不要回應一下？"],["王處長正誼：委員好，我是國防部法律司法紀調查處處長王正誼，就剛剛委員所提問的軍事審判制度是否回復的部分，回應如下：第一個，總統在3月13號宣示恢復軍事審判的相關條件，本部在當天記者會上也有強調說明，其實就現行的軍事審判法來看，戰時還是要恢復軍事審判，恢復軍事審判還是由軍法官來從事相關的審判工作。"],["林委員倩綺：本席提醒你們，在你們公告這件事情之後，其實還有所謂軍法官的問題。"],["王處長正誼：是。"],["林委員倩綺：軍法官從先前整個業務移撥到法院之後，設專股專庭，他們也已經差不多熟悉，你們軍法官有多久沒有運作？"],["王處長正誼：應該有11年，103年開始就沒有在從事。"],["林委員倩綺：對，如果都沒有在運作，你覺得現在回復適宜嗎？"],["王處長正誼：報告委員，這部分其實有同步在規劃，未來如果恢復軍事審判，軍法官的訓練會協請司法院及法務部給予我們相關……"],["林委員倩綺：為什麼不像現在這樣子的現狀處理就好？"],["王處長正誼：報告委員，剛剛有提到戰時審判的部分，還是需要有審判制度，未來規劃還是由軍法官來從事，而不是由司法官。"],["林委員倩綺：軍法官就如您所講的十幾年沒有運作，但是在法院專股或專庭的運作上，也已經有一些經驗，為什麼不就現行的體制去做處理，又要回復在過去民進黨政府一直非常反對的軍事審判？"],["王處長正誼：報告委員，因為其實審判分為兩個制度，平時跟戰時的兩個制度，現在是就平時的部分來轉換，戰時的部分……"],["林委員倩綺：戰時如同本席所講的，軍刑法也有一些戰時的特殊規定。"],["王處長正誼：對，實體法部分確實是有這樣子的規定。"],["林委員倩綺：已經有特殊規定，你又要執行很久沒有執行的軍法官的系統，而且現行法院也執行到有一點經驗，你們為什麼要做沒有效度的事情？"],["王處長正誼：報告委員，其實整體來看，從平時以外，因為戰時還是軍法官要回到審判實務工作，如果……"],["林委員倩綺：所以看起來我們好像沒有辦法溝通，對吧？你們一直想著戰時、軍法，可是現在在過渡的時期，也有一些機制去處理，那為什麼不就目前已經累積相關機制的系統來做未來有可能延伸的處理？這個是不是請跨部會把這樣的邏輯帶進去好嗎？"],["王處長正誼：是，謝謝委員。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝。接下來，國防部的代表，對不起。","現在我們面對涉及軍機或戰備演訓的案件時，目前建構具機密資訊保護機制的審判環境，相關物證跟資料保全，如何兼顧司法程序與國安維護，請問國防部，這個部分你們怎麼來因應？"],["簡處長熒宏：委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：這其實是剛才司法院有講的，審判的過程當中，對於密件、相關資料的調閱等等，這個部分，我想在兩個單位裡面一直是有一些問題。"],["簡處長熒宏：跟委員報告，我是國防部保防安全處處長簡熒宏。針對涉及到共諜案件的人員，有87.5%都是由我們官兵主動檢舉，有關涉及到國軍內部機密資訊的部分，我們都會配合檢調機關，針對外流資訊都會予以審認。"],["林委員倩綺：真的嗎？"],["簡處長熒宏：對，予以提供……"],["林委員倩綺：副秘書長，你們都這樣嗎？真的是這樣嗎？"],["簡處長熒宏：向委員說明，截至目前，每個個案所外流資訊，都是由檢調機關函請國防部來做機密資訊的審認，依照審認的各層級，我們會同各產資單位以及各聯參實施複審之後，提供給檢察機關來予以審認，予以據以判處重刑，報告完畢。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝處長在這邊念臺詞。其實這個東西跟各部會都有很大的關係，我們也知道實際執行上，有的時候都有點空，法訂的很重，但是執行的效度上跟執行的實際面，確實是有很大的問題，所以本席在這邊談一下司法面，在刑法第一百零九條到一百一十三條已經針對內亂、外患罪有一些規範了，但是共諜案如果沒有軍機或戰時的情節，適用性有限，所以檢察官目前仍以國安法、刑法或兩岸人民關係條例來進行起訴，但是條文的設計跟態樣有一些脫節，所以就會導致近期的這幾個案件讓人有所質疑。","我們知道前行政院長游錫堃的辦公室助理盛礎纓，一直到總統府的吳尚雨，這幾個案件都讓人民感到非常質疑，像盛礎纓僅僅20萬元交保，但他已經長期收取各種類型的資金。在國安法裡面，為敵對勢力發展組織或洩漏國家機密者，刑期是七年以上，盛礎纓這樣的行為，收受外幣或虛擬貨幣的狀況已經持續了6年，部長，這難道沒有到長期性的狀態嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：刑期跟具保是不是要有一定的連帶關係，這是兩碼事。剛才委員關心，盛姓人士的具保20萬的問題，具保最主要是羈押的替代處分，他是認為沒有羈押的必要，就用保證金的方式來防止他的逃亡，這是防逃的一個機制，是一個保全證據的方法。"],["林委員倩綺：我們知道這其實是為了防止潛逃跟滅證的風險。"],["鄭部長銘謙：個案的部分，我想承辦的檢察官會就個案證據收集，以及他的必要性來做認定，有沒有羈押必要，就刑事訴訟法一百零一條的規定，如果有羈押的必要，我想檢方會申請法院來羈押，但是他認為……"],["林委員倩綺：這樣的結果，其實帶給外界很多的質疑，我們知道你為了防止潛逃跟滅證，在國安的案件裡面，有沒有仍然可能跟敵對勢力保持聯絡，或是組織殘餘接觸的能力，還有動用地下資金逃亡的管道，我想這都應該要納入風險評估。","最後，因為時間的關係，本席還是語重心長的提醒：現行的國家安全法、反滲透法，刑法內亂、外患之規範，雖然構成某一些條件，但檢察體系對於敵對勢力的舉證、認定與標準，還有相關單位證據提供的適宜性，我想這應該都是各部會要好好的來做系統性處理，才不會讓整個法條上，好像高法條但是低適用，處理出來的狀態讓人民對於法治教育產生很多信心危機。以上請各部門好好的討論，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","莊瑞雄","許宇甄","張啓楷","羅智強","陳冠廷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國\n防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、\n海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭（股）之執行現況，並就共諜滲透、機\n敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制，提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00003"}}}