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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 205.749, \"end\": 205.869, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"庭\", \"start\": 205.869, \"end\": 206.029, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"股\", \"start\": 206.029, \"end\": 206.05, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 207.27, \"end\": 225.467, \"text\": \"那在這個國安法第19條之下我們這個司法院有一個有關各級法院法官辦理案件年度司法事務分配辦法對不對依照這個分配辦法下來分配哪一些案件是要屬於所謂國安跟軍事專股那我特別注意到這個辦法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 207.27, \"end\": 207.39, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 207.39, \"end\": 207.831, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 207.831, \"end\": 208.051, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 208.051, \"end\": 208.311, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 208.311, \"end\": 208.831, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 208.831, \"end\": 208.972, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"下\", 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224.906, \"end\": 225.026, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 225.026, \"end\": 225.166, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"注\", \"start\": 225.166, \"end\": 225.286, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 225.286, \"end\": 225.367, \"score\": 0.699}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 225.367, \"end\": 225.447, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 225.447, \"end\": 225.467, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 227.268, \"end\": 253.828, \"text\": \"這個分配辦法裡面的這個附表二有關刑事失誤的部分第六項有關這個國安軍事專業案件裡面的這個裡面的第二款有提到這個上開案件與其他專業案件競合的時候由國安專業軍事法庭審理那這部分這個意思我看它競合包括如性侵原住民貪汙等等這樣子的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 227.268, \"end\": 227.388, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"配\", \"start\": 227.388, \"end\": 227.709, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 227.709, \"end\": 227.969, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 227.969, \"end\": 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\"end\": 349.078, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 349.078, \"end\": 349.318, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 349.318, \"end\": 349.458, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 349.458, \"end\": 349.798, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 349.798, \"end\": 350.138, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 350.138, \"end\": 350.518, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 350.518, \"end\": 350.658, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 350.658, \"end\": 351.119, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"背\", \"start\": 351.119, \"end\": 351.299, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"景\", \"start\": 351.299, \"end\": 351.519, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 351.519, \"end\": 352.299, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 352.299, \"end\": 352.739, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 352.739, \"end\": 353.119, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"庭\", \"start\": 353.119, \"end\": 353.24, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 353.24, \"end\": 353.38, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"精\", \"start\": 353.38, \"end\": 353.6, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"神\", \"start\": 353.6, \"end\": 353.62, \"score\": 0.997}]}, {\"start\": 354.46, \"end\": 380.028, \"text\": \"我就是認為有可是在有些案件的時候它會同時發生我知道這就是競合嘛那這個就是一種選擇就是用選擇就是說我們覺得哪一類的那我個人認為啦所以我在這邊的主張就是你們是不是來檢討一下在未來在軍事審判制度恢復之前我們把這樣子的競合全部由國安軍事法庭來審理我個人認為是有值得檢討之處啦我認為說這樣子的競合我們不一定因為它軍人身份我們就要由國安專庭來審理啊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 354.46, \"end\": 354.58, \"score\": 0.648}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 354.58, \"end\": 354.74, \"score\": 0.606}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 354.74, \"end\": 354.98, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 354.98, \"end\": 355.16, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 451.868, \"end\": 451.928, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 451.928, \"end\": 452.108, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 452.108, \"end\": 452.268, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 452.268, \"end\": 452.328, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 452.328, \"end\": 452.348, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 452.348, \"end\": 452.368, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 452.368, \"end\": 452.608, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 452.608, \"end\": 452.628, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 452.628, \"end\": 452.788, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 452.788, \"end\": 452.808, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 452.808, \"end\": 453.169, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"置\", \"start\": 453.169, \"end\": 453.289, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 453.289, \"end\": 453.349, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 453.349, \"end\": 453.409, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 453.409, \"end\": 453.509, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 453.509, \"end\": 453.529, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 465.785, \"end\": 488.43, \"text\": \"這個最大的國安專庭最大的問題就是大家認為說這個法官在國安專業上面這個有一般的一般受司法訓練他在國安方面的這些相關的這些認知可能會有所不足因此我們現在設計的是研習制度研習制度就每年應該參加有關相關專業研習案件合計時間達12個小時一年12個小時一天做2個小時就是6天\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 465.785, \"end\": 465.945, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 465.945, \"end\": 466.165, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 466.165, \"end\": 466.745, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 466.745, \"end\": 467.085, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"庭\", \"start\": 467.085, \"end\": 467.245, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 467.245, \"end\": 467.365, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 467.365, \"end\": 467.526, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 467.526, \"end\": 467.926, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 467.926, \"end\": 468.026, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 468.026, \"end\": 468.146, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 468.146, \"end\": 468.266, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 468.266, \"end\": 469.606, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 469.606, \"end\": 469.786, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 469.786, \"end\": 469.966, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 469.966, \"end\": 470.226, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": 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0.902}, {\"word\": \"習\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 483.589, \"end\": 483.789, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 483.789, \"end\": 484.789, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 484.789, \"end\": 485.069, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"習\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 485.069, \"end\": 485.169, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 485.169, \"end\": 485.309, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 485.309, \"end\": 485.429, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"每\", \"start\": 485.429, \"end\": 485.589, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 485.589, \"end\": 486.129, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 486.129, \"end\": 486.29, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 486.29, \"end\": 486.61, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 486.61, \"end\": 486.75, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 486.75, \"end\": 486.83, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"習\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 486.83, \"end\": 486.85, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 486.85, \"end\": 486.91, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 486.91, \"end\": 487.09, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"達\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 487.09, \"end\": 487.15, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 487.15, \"end\": 487.19, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 487.19, \"end\": 487.35, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 487.35, \"end\": 487.41, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 487.41, \"end\": 487.45, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 487.45, \"end\": 487.63, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 487.63, \"end\": 487.65, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 487.65, \"end\": 487.81, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 487.81, \"end\": 488.27, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 488.27, \"end\": 488.41, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 488.41, \"end\": 488.43, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 493.511, \"end\": 500.915, \"text\": \"一年12個小時他是不是能夠就因此具備足夠的國安專業來進行這樣的審理你們有進行相關的評估嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 493.511, \"end\": 493.631, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 493.631, \"end\": 494.232, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 494.232, \"end\": 494.592, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 494.592, \"end\": 494.812, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 494.812, \"end\": 494.912, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 494.912, \"end\": 495.012, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 495.012, \"end\": 495.132, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 495.132, \"end\": 496.113, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 496.113, \"end\": 496.293, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 496.293, \"end\": 496.513, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"此\", \"start\": 496.513, \"end\": 497.233, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"具\", \"start\": 497.233, \"end\": 497.653, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"足\", \"start\": 497.653, \"end\": 497.994, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 497.994, \"end\": 498.274, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 498.274, \"end\": 498.454, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 498.454, \"end\": 499.594, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 499.594, \"end\": 499.815, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 499.815, \"end\": 499.975, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 499.975, \"end\": 500.215, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 500.215, \"end\": 500.395, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 500.395, \"end\": 500.595, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 500.595, \"end\": 500.775, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 500.775, \"end\": 500.895, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"評\"}, {\"word\": \"估\", \"start\": 500.895, \"end\": 500.915, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 505.063, \"end\": 530.901, \"text\": \"我之前問你們說你們有進行意見調查意見調查結果大部分的法官都認為說有幫助有幫助是有幫助的當然是有幫助啦沒設置他當然是有幫助但是他的成效如何這個是不是用意見調查的方式而是應該你們要下去評估這樣子12小時的研習是不是足以讓他們負擔這部分請你們要評估啦因為事實上我這些案件目前這些案件有很多案件這些\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 505.063, \"end\": 505.163, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": 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0.666}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 814.619, \"end\": 814.639, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:24,613\n主席我先請司法院副秘書長麻煩司法院副秘書長另外是不是也請國防部國防部今天有兩位代表我們請法律事務司的處長\n\n2\n00:00:32,517 --> 00:00:46,993\n我們今天的主題第一個部分是有關軍事審判專庭跟專股執行的現況這個部分目前我們是依照國安法第19條我們都設有國安軍事專業案件的專庭跟專股未來但是在這個\n\n3\n00:00:54,558 --> 00:01:08,928\n這個今年我們總統有宣示那我們這個部長也有表示我們未來將會要恢復這個軍事審判制度恢復軍事審判制度之後這個未來這個有關國安跟軍事的審判專庭的部分應該會有\n\n4\n00:01:10,189 --> 00:01:29,828\n會有所改變,制度會有所改變所以我大概這是先請國防部來說明一下目前有關這個軍事這個我們部長也提到說強調說要確保未來這個軍法官的獨立性我目前的規劃跟這個進度怎麼樣我們這個有關於這個這個軍法官的未來這個來源跟他現在狀況的規劃\n\n5\n00:01:31,169 --> 00:01:57,448\n好委員好我是國防部法律司法律調查處處長那至於這個剛委員提到這個軍法官獨立的部分因為其實這次修法除了軍事審判制度以外其實最重要就是針對組織跟人事部分要設計出一套法律來保障軍法官獨立審判的一個對這個是最重要的那這部分其實我們目前都在參考司法院法官法我們現在國防部有沒有開始跟司法院\n\n6\n00:01:58,568 --> 00:02:12,701\n來進行有關於未來這個法官包括法官人才來源的這個相關的討論有沒有開啟還是你們其實目前是國防部自己在願意目前我們部裡面在草擬條文那也會跟國外集團也會做協調目前有嗎\n\n7\n00:02:13,562 --> 00:02:27,966\n有跟那個我們目前我們司法院有跟國防部有接到國防部有關這個本來就是預計今天早上國防部會來跟司法院洽談這方面的那個本來就今天早上要洽談後來取消了對因為立法院開本委員會妨礙了這個這個你們未來軍法制度的設計的進度就對了沒有沒有\n\n8\n00:02:34,868 --> 00:02:56,047\n不是這樣子我們改時間我現在意思就是說我認為說談那麼久我們這個國防部跟司法院應該就未來這個所謂這個軍法官確保軍法官獨立性的這些相關制度設計以及法官的來源我們應該要有所接觸應該要有所研習才對啊好那這部分國防部我們請回我接下來請問\n\n9\n00:02:57,816 --> 00:03:26,050\n那在這個未來這個軍事審判制度這個恢復之前這個目前我們的所採取的這個所謂國安軍事審判專庭專股的這個目前的這個狀況我就目前的狀況來跟這個我們的這個副秘書長來這邊指教一下這個我們現在目前是依照國安法第19條所以我們這國安要設置國安跟這個這個軍事專業案件的專庭專股\n\n10\n00:03:27,270 --> 00:03:45,467\n那在這個國安法第19條之下我們這個司法院有一個有關各級法院法官辦理案件年度司法事務分配辦法對不對依照這個分配辦法下來分配哪一些案件是要屬於所謂國安跟軍事專股那我特別注意到這個辦法\n\n11\n00:03:47,268 --> 00:04:13,828\n這個分配辦法裡面的這個附表二有關刑事失誤的部分第六項有關這個國安軍事專業案件裡面的這個裡面的第二款有提到這個上開案件與其他專業案件競合的時候由國安專業軍事法庭審理那這部分這個意思我看它競合包括如性侵原住民貪汙等等這樣子的\n\n12\n00:04:15,956 --> 00:04:38,775\n的競合都有國安軍事來審理這樣的制度設計他的精神是什麼幫我委員就是其實他就是你們可能是軍人身份觸犯這些軍人身份他跟他有跟原住民身份有競合的時候你們還是由這個國安軍事專庭來審理是那有關信心案件還是由這個國安軍事來審理這樣子跟這個\n\n13\n00:04:44,079 --> 00:05:01,112\n跟我們的這個國安軍事專庭設置的這個精神會不會讓他的附和跟他設置的精神有沒有漢格之處因為像那個在陳平的時候如果軍人設範那個這個軍刑法的時候這個時候是屬於那個\n\n14\n00:05:04,526 --> 00:05:26,417\n如果是依專庭的設計的話因為你們這個軍事你們用過去軍事審判承平時期軍事審判的觀念來設置來規定這樣子的競合辦法但是事實上這個我們的國安軍事審判專庭它裡面很重要的一個不同的職能是有關國安案件所以就國安案件的專業而言它來整理原住民軍人身份\n\n15\n00:05:28,269 --> 00:05:53,620\n原住民身份在法律上面有一些不同的程序但是他卻指應他是軍人所以他把這個案件納到國安跟軍事專庭裡面我認為這個是有值得檢討之處因為就是在那個法院的設計裡面就是說涉及到那個如果當事人是原民的時候他有他就是原民專業那個背景那另外就是說那個國安對原民專業背景跟國安軍事專庭的精神\n\n16\n00:05:54,460 --> 00:06:20,028\n我就是認為有可是在有些案件的時候它會同時發生我知道這就是競合嘛那這個就是一種選擇就是用選擇就是說我們覺得哪一類的那我個人認為啦所以我在這邊的主張就是你們是不是來檢討一下在未來在軍事審判制度恢復之前我們把這樣子的競合全部由國安軍事法庭來審理我個人認為是有值得檢討之處啦我認為說這樣子的競合我們不一定因為它軍人身份我們就要由國安專庭來審理啊\n\n17\n00:06:21,648 --> 00:06:40,567\n這樣子你會讓國安軍事專庭他的專業的角色會模糊掉而且他專業所投入的這些專業範疇也會讓他擴大啊報告委員我解釋一下要舉個例子今天假設說是一個原名他是那個軍人或者是說他涉犯這種共諜案的時候沒有\n\n18\n00:06:44,210 --> 00:07:10,170\n共諜案是共諜案他即使不是共諜案但是他原住民的身份你們現在原住民身份競合了你們跟下競合就是說他有涉犯國安這樣子的事情或者是說他是屬於不是喔你如果說軍人性侵軍人性侵跟國安可能可能他跟國安沒有任何但軍人性侵的部分他就因為他性侵他的軍人角色所以他競合了競合你們就由國安軍事專庭來審理\n\n19\n00:07:11,803 --> 00:07:20,845\n原住民也是一樣他有軍人又有原住民身份你們就由國安軍事專庭來審理並不是他涉案的不一定是國安案件不是國安案件也是由國安軍事專庭來審理啊\n\n20\n00:07:22,186 --> 00:07:33,529\n我們現在是有兩類一類是軍事審判還有的是國安那這兩個通通都是在一個鑽停我知道所以我認為這樣子的設計是有值得檢討之處你們回去檢討這是第一個問題我們目前也有設置我們這個目前國安\n\n21\n00:07:45,785 --> 00:08:08,430\n這個最大的國安專庭最大的問題就是大家認為說這個法官在國安專業上面這個有一般的一般受司法訓練他在國安方面的這些相關的這些認知可能會有所不足因此我們現在設計的是研習制度研習制度就每年應該參加有關相關專業研習案件合計時間達12個小時一年12個小時一天做2個小時就是6天\n\n22\n00:08:13,511 --> 00:08:20,915\n一年12個小時他是不是能夠就因此具備足夠的國安專業來進行這樣的審理你們有進行相關的評估嗎\n\n23\n00:08:25,063 --> 00:08:50,901\n我之前問你們說你們有進行意見調查意見調查結果大部分的法官都認為說有幫助有幫助是有幫助的當然是有幫助啦沒設置他當然是有幫助但是他的成效如何這個是不是用意見調查的方式而是應該你們要下去評估這樣子12小時的研習是不是足以讓他們負擔這部分請你們要評估啦因為事實上我這些案件目前這些案件有很多案件這些\n\n24\n00:08:51,821 --> 00:09:08,349\n這些延讓的很大的原因就是有關這些相關的這些橫向的聯繫都不足了你們這些有些這個機密事項到底在機密等級到底是在什麼樣的等級你們去函國防部國防部給你拖時間拖很久回復的時間很慢然後回來的這個內容又很簡要\n\n25\n00:09:13,591 --> 00:09:39,114\n檢要或抽象讓你們法院無從就這樣的國防部所提供的相關的這些這種橫向聯繫是有很大的問題這監察院有提出報告部長知道嗎是這部分你們有什麼樣的這個可能法務部這個法務部有關相關的這些橫向聯繫這個我們法務部這邊是不是是不是應該要由法務部這邊來建立相關的平台\n\n26\n00:09:39,585 --> 00:10:03,474\n他有關你平台的建立那個最高檢察署齁以及各地檢署都以國防部齁對軍事單位都有建立那個個案處理的聯繫平台那另外那個國防部啦現在目前的這些相關的國安案件齁我們包括司法警察包括這個這個政戰局保安處這些軍安總隊這些都這個都應該在納在這個平台之內\n\n27\n00:10:04,154 --> 00:10:26,833\n這個最高檢察署跟國防部有建立那個平台你這個平台用這個平台來降低你這種所有橫向聯繫目前橫向聯繫上最大的困難我剛剛講的是實務上法官所講最大的困難就是國防部回復很慢回復很慢而且回復很簡要而且很抽象去兩個月之後給你回一個就只有給你法條而已說什麼樣哪一種列A級哪一種列B級\n\n28\n00:10:29,035 --> 00:10:47,480\n舊個案他還沒有給你必須再去函附詢問第二次這樣子的這些橫向的聯繫平台我認為法務部應該要來建議起來這個時間的關係再來談一個我個人認為說目前這個制度上面有一個\n\n29\n00:10:48,595 --> 00:11:17,553\n比較重要的就是說有關我們現在有法規這個國家機密保護法第25條它規定說目前部長請回我這個接下來是司法院的問題我們目前按照這個國家機密保護法這個法院這個第25條第一項說法院檢查機關設立是國家機密案件其程序不予公開我知道我們現在的做法幾乎這些國安案件它所有的檔案都沒有辦法公開不只是\n\n30\n00:11:18,453 --> 00:11:38,428\n沒有對社會公開連我們院內不同懲判也都沒有公開也就是說不同的法官我根本就不曉得其他國安案件所有的審理的程序完全一無所知跟他判決的結果的相關的理由等等這些案由通通都是機密對不對我們現在目前都列機密對不對\n\n31\n00:11:40,950 --> 00:11:55,337\n那這個我個人認為說這樣子的這個當然這個國安案件他當時設計說國安案件機密他程序不予公開他有一定的基於國家安全的考量對於機密事項的考量但是這樣子的設計他對於\n\n32\n00:11:57,118 --> 00:12:24,298\n這個他對於這個是不是能夠進行公平的審判以及這樣子的審判他的結果是不是符合這個社會的法義這樣相關的這些監督還有這個他的程序正義究竟有沒有保障以及他的這個甚至你對於未來學界以及我們大家社會各界要研究相關的這些國安案件的關聯性他的這些國安案件的這些學術累積幾乎都不可能\n\n33\n00:12:25,438 --> 00:12:45,503\n都妨礙到了就因為你們現在目前的這種完全不公開的這樣子的辦法使得我剛剛所講的這些都成為問題那我不是說他所以他就必須要大公開也不是那我認為說有一些像美國有一些做法我是覺得值得參考他有一些提示\n\n34\n00:12:46,923 --> 00:13:14,876\n他美國有關於這個如何提示這些機密資訊他們都有一套相關的規定有一些去識別化有一些用代號等等相關的方式而不是說整個因為他是國安案件所以他是完全就不能公開甚至連不同同樣法院裡面不同的法官他也沒辦法去了解這個國安案件這個案件假案跟已案我連想參考假案的判決可能我都沒有辦法因為他是機密完全不公開的這部分是不是我們司法院檢討一下\n\n35\n00:13:15,524 --> 00:13:34,639\n是那我們再研議好不好你們研議那目前有關這個我知道你們現在國安案件最重要的你們很多都按照你們的量刑指引在判決那這個量刑指引你們也應該要有定期的檢討這部分我未來有時間再跟我們院來進行討論好以上好謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n12680\t24613\t主席我先請司法院副秘書長麻煩司法院副秘書長另外是不是也請國防部國防部今天有兩位代表我們請法律事務司的處長\n32517\t46993\t我們今天的主題第一個部分是有關軍事審判專庭跟專股執行的現況這個部分目前我們是依照國安法第19條我們都設有國安軍事專業案件的專庭跟專股未來但是在這個\n54558\t68928\t這個今年我們總統有宣示那我們這個部長也有表示我們未來將會要恢復這個軍事審判制度恢復軍事審判制度之後這個未來這個有關國安跟軍事的審判專庭的部分應該會有\n70189\t89828\t會有所改變,制度會有所改變所以我大概這是先請國防部來說明一下目前有關這個軍事這個我們部長也提到說強調說要確保未來這個軍法官的獨立性我目前的規劃跟這個進度怎麼樣我們這個有關於這個這個軍法官的未來這個來源跟他現在狀況的規劃\n91169\t117448\t好 委員好 我是國防部法律司法律調查處處長那至於這個剛委員提到這個軍法官獨立的部分因為其實這次修法除了軍事審判制度以外其實最重要就是針對組織跟人事部分要設計出一套法律來保障軍法官獨立審判的一個對 這個是最重要的那這部分其實我們目前都在參考司法院法官法我們現在國防部有沒有開始跟司法院\n118568\t132701\t來進行有關於未來這個法官包括法官人才來源的這個相關的討論有沒有開啟還是你們其實目前是國防部自己在願意目前我們部裡面在草擬條文那也會跟國外集團也會做協調目前有嗎\n133562\t147966\t有跟那個我們目前我們司法院有跟國防部有接到國防部有關這個本來就是預計今天早上國防部會來跟司法院洽談這方面的那個本來就今天早上要洽談後來取消了對因為立法院開本委員會妨礙了這個這個你們未來軍法制度的設計的進度就對了沒有沒有\n154868\t176047\t不是這樣子我們改時間我現在意思就是說我認為說談那麼久我們這個國防部跟司法院應該就未來這個所謂這個軍法官確保軍法官獨立性的這些相關制度設計以及法官的來源我們應該要有所接觸應該要有所研習才對啊好那這部分國防部我們請回我接下來請問\n177816\t206050\t那在這個未來這個軍事審判制度這個恢復之前這個目前我們的所採取的這個所謂國安軍事審判專庭專股的這個目前的這個狀況我就目前的狀況來跟這個我們的這個副秘書長來這邊指教一下這個我們現在目前是依照國安法第19條所以我們這國安要設置國安跟這個這個軍事專業案件的專庭專股\n207270\t225467\t那在這個國安法第19條之下我們這個司法院有一個有關各級法院法官辦理案件年度司法事務分配辦法對不對依照這個分配辦法下來分配哪一些案件是要屬於所謂國安跟軍事專股那我特別注意到這個辦法\n227268\t253828\t這個分配辦法裡面的這個附表二有關刑事失誤的部分第六項有關這個國安軍事專業案件裡面的這個裡面的第二款有提到這個上開案件與其他專業案件競合的時候由國安專業軍事法庭審理那這部分這個意思我看它競合包括如性侵原住民貪汙等等這樣子的\n255956\t278775\t的競合都有國安軍事來審理這樣的制度設計他的精神是什麼幫我委員就是其實他就是你們可能是軍人身份觸犯這些軍人身份他跟他有跟原住民身份有競合的時候你們還是由這個國安軍事專庭來審理是那有關信心案件還是由這個國安軍事來審理這樣子跟這個\n284079\t301112\t跟我們的這個國安軍事專庭設置的這個精神會不會讓他的附和跟他設置的精神有沒有漢格之處因為像那個在陳平的時候如果軍人設範那個這個軍刑法的時候這個時候是屬於那個\n304526\t326417\t如果是依專庭的設計的話因為你們這個軍事你們用過去軍事審判承平時期軍事審判的觀念來設置來規定這樣子的競合辦法但是事實上這個我們的國安軍事審判專庭它裡面很重要的一個不同的職能是有關國安案件所以就國安案件的專業而言它來整理原住民軍人身份\n328269\t353620\t原住民身份在法律上面有一些不同的程序但是他卻指應他是軍人所以他把這個案件納到國安跟軍事專庭裡面我認為這個是有值得檢討之處因為就是在那個法院的設計裡面就是說涉及到那個如果當事人是原民的時候他有他就是原民專業那個背景那另外就是說那個國安對原民專業背景跟國安軍事專庭的精神\n354460\t380028\t我就是認為有可是在有些案件的時候它會同時發生我知道這就是競合嘛那這個就是一種選擇就是用選擇就是說我們覺得哪一類的那我個人認為啦所以我在這邊的主張就是你們是不是來檢討一下在未來在軍事審判制度恢復之前我們把這樣子的競合全部由國安軍事法庭來審理我個人認為是有值得檢討之處啦我認為說這樣子的競合我們不一定因為它軍人身份我們就要由國安專庭來審理啊\n381648\t400567\t這樣子你會讓國安軍事專庭他的專業的角色會模糊掉而且他專業所投入的這些專業範疇也會讓他擴大啊報告委員我解釋一下要舉個例子今天假設說是一個原名他是那個軍人或者是說他涉犯這種共諜案的時候沒有\n404210\t430170\t共諜案是共諜案他即使不是共諜案但是他原住民的身份你們現在原住民身份競合了你們跟下競合就是說他有涉犯國安這樣子的事情或者是說他是屬於不是喔你如果說軍人性侵軍人性侵跟國安可能可能他跟國安沒有任何但軍人性侵的部分他就因為他性侵他的軍人角色所以他競合了競合你們就由國安軍事專庭來審理\n431803\t440845\t原住民也是一樣 他有軍人又有原住民身份 你們就由國安軍事專庭來審理並不是 他涉案的不一定是國安案件不是國安案件 也是由國安軍事專庭來審理啊\n442186\t453529\t我們現在是有兩類一類是軍事審判還有的是國安那這兩個通通都是在一個鑽停我知道所以我認為這樣子的設計是有值得檢討之處你們回去檢討這是第一個問題我們目前也有設置我們這個目前國安\n465785\t488430\t這個最大的國安專庭最大的問題就是大家認為說這個法官在國安專業上面這個有一般的一般受司法訓練他在國安方面的這些相關的這些認知可能會有所不足因此我們現在設計的是研習制度研習制度就每年應該參加有關相關專業研習案件合計時間達12個小時一年12個小時一天做2個小時就是6天\n493511\t500915\t一年12個小時他是不是能夠就因此具備足夠的國安專業來進行這樣的審理你們有進行相關的評估嗎\n505063\t530901\t我之前問你們說你們有進行意見調查意見調查結果大部分的法官都認為說有幫助有幫助是有幫助的當然是有幫助啦沒設置他當然是有幫助但是他的成效如何這個是不是用意見調查的方式而是應該你們要下去評估這樣子12小時的研習是不是足以讓他們負擔這部分請你們要評估啦因為事實上我這些案件目前這些案件有很多案件這些\n531821\t548349\t這些延讓的很大的原因就是有關這些相關的這些橫向的聯繫都不足了你們這些有些這個機密事項到底在機密等級到底是在什麼樣的等級你們去函國防部國防部給你拖時間拖很久回復的時間很慢然後回來的這個內容又很簡要\n553591\t579114\t檢要或抽象讓你們法院無從就這樣的國防部所提供的相關的這些這種橫向聯繫是有很大的問題這監察院有提出報告 部長知道嗎是這部分你們有什麼樣的這個可能法務部這個法務部有關相關的這些橫向聯繫這個我們法務部這邊是不是是不是應該要由法務部這邊來建立相關的平台\n579585\t603474\t他有關你平台的建立那個最高檢察署齁以及各地檢署都以國防部齁對軍事單位都有建立那個個案處理的聯繫平台那另外那個國防部啦現在目前的這些相關的國安案件齁我們包括司法警察包括這個這個政戰局保安處這些軍安總隊這些都這個都應該在納在這個平台之內\n604154\t626833\t這個最高檢察署跟國防部有建立那個平台你這個平台用這個平台來降低你這種所有橫向聯繫目前橫向聯繫上最大的困難我剛剛講的是實務上法官所講最大的困難就是國防部回復很慢回復很慢而且回復很簡要而且很抽象去兩個月之後給你回一個就只有給你法條而已說什麼樣哪一種列A級哪一種列B級\n629035\t647480\t舊個案他還沒有給你必須再去函附詢問第二次這樣子的這些橫向的聯繫平台我認為法務部應該要來建議起來這個時間的關係再來談一個我個人認為說目前這個制度上面有一個\n648595\t677553\t比較重要的就是說有關我們現在有法規這個國家機密保護法第25條它規定說目前部長請回我這個接下來是司法院的問題我們目前按照這個國家機密保護法這個法院這個第25條第一項說法院檢查機關設立是國家機密案件其程序不予公開我知道我們現在的做法幾乎這些國安案件它所有的檔案都沒有辦法公開不只是\n678453\t698428\t沒有對社會公開連我們院內不同懲判也都沒有公開也就是說不同的法官我根本就不曉得其他國安案件所有的審理的程序完全一無所知跟他判決的結果的相關的理由等等這些案由通通都是機密對不對我們現在目前都列機密對不對\n700950\t715337\t那這個我個人認為說這樣子的這個當然這個國安案件他當時設計說國安案件機密他程序不予公開他有一定的基於國家安全的考量對於機密事項的考量但是這樣子的設計他對於\n717118\t744298\t這個他對於這個是不是能夠進行公平的審判以及這樣子的審判他的結果是不是符合這個社會的法義這樣相關的這些監督還有這個他的程序正義究竟有沒有保障以及他的這個甚至你對於未來學界以及我們大家社會各界要研究相關的這些國安案件的關聯性他的這些國安案件的這些學術累積幾乎都不可能\n745438\t765503\t都妨礙到了就因為你們現在目前的這種完全不公開的這樣子的辦法使得我剛剛所講的這些都成為問題那我不是說他所以他就必須要大公開也不是那我認為說有一些像美國有一些做法我是覺得值得參考他有一些提示\n766923\t794876\t他美國有關於這個如何提示這些機密資訊他們都有一套相關的規定有一些去識別化有一些用代號等等相關的方式而不是說整個因為他是國安案件所以他是完全就不能公開甚至連不同同樣法院裡面不同的法官他也沒辦法去了解這個國安案件這個案件假案跟已案我連想參考假案的判決可能我都沒有辦法因為他是機密完全不公開的這部分是不是我們司法院檢討一下\n795524\t814639\t是 那我們再研議好不好 你們研議那目前有關這個我知道你們現在國安案件最重要的你們很多都按照你們的量刑指引在判決那這個量刑指引你們也應該要有定期的檢討這部分我未來有時間再跟我們院來進行討論好 以上好 謝謝委員\n","txt":"主席我先請司法院副秘書長麻煩司法院副秘書長另外是不是也請國防部國防部今天有兩位代表我們請法律事務司的處長\n我們今天的主題第一個部分是有關軍事審判專庭跟專股執行的現況這個部分目前我們是依照國安法第19條我們都設有國安軍事專業案件的專庭跟專股未來但是在這個\n這個今年我們總統有宣示那我們這個部長也有表示我們未來將會要恢復這個軍事審判制度恢復軍事審判制度之後這個未來這個有關國安跟軍事的審判專庭的部分應該會有\n會有所改變,制度會有所改變所以我大概這是先請國防部來說明一下目前有關這個軍事這個我們部長也提到說強調說要確保未來這個軍法官的獨立性我目前的規劃跟這個進度怎麼樣我們這個有關於這個這個軍法官的未來這個來源跟他現在狀況的規劃\n好 委員好 我是國防部法律司法律調查處處長那至於這個剛委員提到這個軍法官獨立的部分因為其實這次修法除了軍事審判制度以外其實最重要就是針對組織跟人事部分要設計出一套法律來保障軍法官獨立審判的一個對 這個是最重要的那這部分其實我們目前都在參考司法院法官法我們現在國防部有沒有開始跟司法院\n來進行有關於未來這個法官包括法官人才來源的這個相關的討論有沒有開啟還是你們其實目前是國防部自己在願意目前我們部裡面在草擬條文那也會跟國外集團也會做協調目前有嗎\n有跟那個我們目前我們司法院有跟國防部有接到國防部有關這個本來就是預計今天早上國防部會來跟司法院洽談這方面的那個本來就今天早上要洽談後來取消了對因為立法院開本委員會妨礙了這個這個你們未來軍法制度的設計的進度就對了沒有沒有\n不是這樣子我們改時間我現在意思就是說我認為說談那麼久我們這個國防部跟司法院應該就未來這個所謂這個軍法官確保軍法官獨立性的這些相關制度設計以及法官的來源我們應該要有所接觸應該要有所研習才對啊好那這部分國防部我們請回我接下來請問\n那在這個未來這個軍事審判制度這個恢復之前這個目前我們的所採取的這個所謂國安軍事審判專庭專股的這個目前的這個狀況我就目前的狀況來跟這個我們的這個副秘書長來這邊指教一下這個我們現在目前是依照國安法第19條所以我們這國安要設置國安跟這個這個軍事專業案件的專庭專股\n那在這個國安法第19條之下我們這個司法院有一個有關各級法院法官辦理案件年度司法事務分配辦法對不對依照這個分配辦法下來分配哪一些案件是要屬於所謂國安跟軍事專股那我特別注意到這個辦法\n這個分配辦法裡面的這個附表二有關刑事失誤的部分第六項有關這個國安軍事專業案件裡面的這個裡面的第二款有提到這個上開案件與其他專業案件競合的時候由國安專業軍事法庭審理那這部分這個意思我看它競合包括如性侵原住民貪汙等等這樣子的\n的競合都有國安軍事來審理這樣的制度設計他的精神是什麼幫我委員就是其實他就是你們可能是軍人身份觸犯這些軍人身份他跟他有跟原住民身份有競合的時候你們還是由這個國安軍事專庭來審理是那有關信心案件還是由這個國安軍事來審理這樣子跟這個\n跟我們的這個國安軍事專庭設置的這個精神會不會讓他的附和跟他設置的精神有沒有漢格之處因為像那個在陳平的時候如果軍人設範那個這個軍刑法的時候這個時候是屬於那個\n如果是依專庭的設計的話因為你們這個軍事你們用過去軍事審判承平時期軍事審判的觀念來設置來規定這樣子的競合辦法但是事實上這個我們的國安軍事審判專庭它裡面很重要的一個不同的職能是有關國安案件所以就國安案件的專業而言它來整理原住民軍人身份\n原住民身份在法律上面有一些不同的程序但是他卻指應他是軍人所以他把這個案件納到國安跟軍事專庭裡面我認為這個是有值得檢討之處因為就是在那個法院的設計裡面就是說涉及到那個如果當事人是原民的時候他有他就是原民專業那個背景那另外就是說那個國安對原民專業背景跟國安軍事專庭的精神\n我就是認為有可是在有些案件的時候它會同時發生我知道這就是競合嘛那這個就是一種選擇就是用選擇就是說我們覺得哪一類的那我個人認為啦所以我在這邊的主張就是你們是不是來檢討一下在未來在軍事審判制度恢復之前我們把這樣子的競合全部由國安軍事法庭來審理我個人認為是有值得檢討之處啦我認為說這樣子的競合我們不一定因為它軍人身份我們就要由國安專庭來審理啊\n這樣子你會讓國安軍事專庭他的專業的角色會模糊掉而且他專業所投入的這些專業範疇也會讓他擴大啊報告委員我解釋一下要舉個例子今天假設說是一個原名他是那個軍人或者是說他涉犯這種共諜案的時候沒有\n共諜案是共諜案他即使不是共諜案但是他原住民的身份你們現在原住民身份競合了你們跟下競合就是說他有涉犯國安這樣子的事情或者是說他是屬於不是喔你如果說軍人性侵軍人性侵跟國安可能可能他跟國安沒有任何但軍人性侵的部分他就因為他性侵他的軍人角色所以他競合了競合你們就由國安軍事專庭來審理\n原住民也是一樣 他有軍人又有原住民身份 你們就由國安軍事專庭來審理並不是 他涉案的不一定是國安案件不是國安案件 也是由國安軍事專庭來審理啊\n我們現在是有兩類一類是軍事審判還有的是國安那這兩個通通都是在一個鑽停我知道所以我認為這樣子的設計是有值得檢討之處你們回去檢討這是第一個問題我們目前也有設置我們這個目前國安\n這個最大的國安專庭最大的問題就是大家認為說這個法官在國安專業上面這個有一般的一般受司法訓練他在國安方面的這些相關的這些認知可能會有所不足因此我們現在設計的是研習制度研習制度就每年應該參加有關相關專業研習案件合計時間達12個小時一年12個小時一天做2個小時就是6天\n一年12個小時他是不是能夠就因此具備足夠的國安專業來進行這樣的審理你們有進行相關的評估嗎\n我之前問你們說你們有進行意見調查意見調查結果大部分的法官都認為說有幫助有幫助是有幫助的當然是有幫助啦沒設置他當然是有幫助但是他的成效如何這個是不是用意見調查的方式而是應該你們要下去評估這樣子12小時的研習是不是足以讓他們負擔這部分請你們要評估啦因為事實上我這些案件目前這些案件有很多案件這些\n這些延讓的很大的原因就是有關這些相關的這些橫向的聯繫都不足了你們這些有些這個機密事項到底在機密等級到底是在什麼樣的等級你們去函國防部國防部給你拖時間拖很久回復的時間很慢然後回來的這個內容又很簡要\n檢要或抽象讓你們法院無從就這樣的國防部所提供的相關的這些這種橫向聯繫是有很大的問題這監察院有提出報告 部長知道嗎是這部分你們有什麼樣的這個可能法務部這個法務部有關相關的這些橫向聯繫這個我們法務部這邊是不是是不是應該要由法務部這邊來建立相關的平台\n他有關你平台的建立那個最高檢察署齁以及各地檢署都以國防部齁對軍事單位都有建立那個個案處理的聯繫平台那另外那個國防部啦現在目前的這些相關的國安案件齁我們包括司法警察包括這個這個政戰局保安處這些軍安總隊這些都這個都應該在納在這個平台之內\n這個最高檢察署跟國防部有建立那個平台你這個平台用這個平台來降低你這種所有橫向聯繫目前橫向聯繫上最大的困難我剛剛講的是實務上法官所講最大的困難就是國防部回復很慢回復很慢而且回復很簡要而且很抽象去兩個月之後給你回一個就只有給你法條而已說什麼樣哪一種列A級哪一種列B級\n舊個案他還沒有給你必須再去函附詢問第二次這樣子的這些橫向的聯繫平台我認為法務部應該要來建議起來這個時間的關係再來談一個我個人認為說目前這個制度上面有一個\n比較重要的就是說有關我們現在有法規這個國家機密保護法第25條它規定說目前部長請回我這個接下來是司法院的問題我們目前按照這個國家機密保護法這個法院這個第25條第一項說法院檢查機關設立是國家機密案件其程序不予公開我知道我們現在的做法幾乎這些國安案件它所有的檔案都沒有辦法公開不只是\n沒有對社會公開連我們院內不同懲判也都沒有公開也就是說不同的法官我根本就不曉得其他國安案件所有的審理的程序完全一無所知跟他判決的結果的相關的理由等等這些案由通通都是機密對不對我們現在目前都列機密對不對\n那這個我個人認為說這樣子的這個當然這個國安案件他當時設計說國安案件機密他程序不予公開他有一定的基於國家安全的考量對於機密事項的考量但是這樣子的設計他對於\n這個他對於這個是不是能夠進行公平的審判以及這樣子的審判他的結果是不是符合這個社會的法義這樣相關的這些監督還有這個他的程序正義究竟有沒有保障以及他的這個甚至你對於未來學界以及我們大家社會各界要研究相關的這些國安案件的關聯性他的這些國安案件的這些學術累積幾乎都不可能\n都妨礙到了就因為你們現在目前的這種完全不公開的這樣子的辦法使得我剛剛所講的這些都成為問題那我不是說他所以他就必須要大公開也不是那我認為說有一些像美國有一些做法我是覺得值得參考他有一些提示\n他美國有關於這個如何提示這些機密資訊他們都有一套相關的規定有一些去識別化有一些用代號等等相關的方式而不是說整個因為他是國安案件所以他是完全就不能公開甚至連不同同樣法院裡面不同的法官他也沒辦法去了解這個國安案件這個案件假案跟已案我連想參考假案的判決可能我都沒有辦法因為他是機密完全不公開的這部分是不是我們司法院檢討一下\n是 那我們再研議好不好 你們研議那目前有關這個我知道你們現在國安案件最重要的你們很多都按照你們的量刑指引在判決那這個量刑指引你們也應該要有定期的檢討這部分我未來有時間再跟我們院來進行討論好 以上好 謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:12.680 --> 00:24.613\n主席我先請司法院副秘書長麻煩司法院副秘書長另外是不是也請國防部國防部今天有兩位代表我們請法律事務司的處長\n\n00:32.517 --> 00:46.993\n我們今天的主題第一個部分是有關軍事審判專庭跟專股執行的現況這個部分目前我們是依照國安法第19條我們都設有國安軍事專業案件的專庭跟專股未來但是在這個\n\n00:54.558 --> 01:08.928\n這個今年我們總統有宣示那我們這個部長也有表示我們未來將會要恢復這個軍事審判制度恢復軍事審判制度之後這個未來這個有關國安跟軍事的審判專庭的部分應該會有\n\n01:10.189 --> 01:29.828\n會有所改變,制度會有所改變所以我大概這是先請國防部來說明一下目前有關這個軍事這個我們部長也提到說強調說要確保未來這個軍法官的獨立性我目前的規劃跟這個進度怎麼樣我們這個有關於這個這個軍法官的未來這個來源跟他現在狀況的規劃\n\n01:31.169 --> 01:57.448\n好委員好我是國防部法律司法律調查處處長那至於這個剛委員提到這個軍法官獨立的部分因為其實這次修法除了軍事審判制度以外其實最重要就是針對組織跟人事部分要設計出一套法律來保障軍法官獨立審判的一個對這個是最重要的那這部分其實我們目前都在參考司法院法官法我們現在國防部有沒有開始跟司法院\n\n01:58.568 --> 02:12.701\n來進行有關於未來這個法官包括法官人才來源的這個相關的討論有沒有開啟還是你們其實目前是國防部自己在願意目前我們部裡面在草擬條文那也會跟國外集團也會做協調目前有嗎\n\n02:13.562 --> 02:27.966\n有跟那個我們目前我們司法院有跟國防部有接到國防部有關這個本來就是預計今天早上國防部會來跟司法院洽談這方面的那個本來就今天早上要洽談後來取消了對因為立法院開本委員會妨礙了這個這個你們未來軍法制度的設計的進度就對了沒有沒有\n\n02:34.868 --> 02:56.047\n不是這樣子我們改時間我現在意思就是說我認為說談那麼久我們這個國防部跟司法院應該就未來這個所謂這個軍法官確保軍法官獨立性的這些相關制度設計以及法官的來源我們應該要有所接觸應該要有所研習才對啊好那這部分國防部我們請回我接下來請問\n\n02:57.816 --> 03:26.050\n那在這個未來這個軍事審判制度這個恢復之前這個目前我們的所採取的這個所謂國安軍事審判專庭專股的這個目前的這個狀況我就目前的狀況來跟這個我們的這個副秘書長來這邊指教一下這個我們現在目前是依照國安法第19條所以我們這國安要設置國安跟這個這個軍事專業案件的專庭專股\n\n03:27.270 --> 03:45.467\n那在這個國安法第19條之下我們這個司法院有一個有關各級法院法官辦理案件年度司法事務分配辦法對不對依照這個分配辦法下來分配哪一些案件是要屬於所謂國安跟軍事專股那我特別注意到這個辦法\n\n03:47.268 --> 04:13.828\n這個分配辦法裡面的這個附表二有關刑事失誤的部分第六項有關這個國安軍事專業案件裡面的這個裡面的第二款有提到這個上開案件與其他專業案件競合的時候由國安專業軍事法庭審理那這部分這個意思我看它競合包括如性侵原住民貪汙等等這樣子的\n\n04:15.956 --> 04:38.775\n的競合都有國安軍事來審理這樣的制度設計他的精神是什麼幫我委員就是其實他就是你們可能是軍人身份觸犯這些軍人身份他跟他有跟原住民身份有競合的時候你們還是由這個國安軍事專庭來審理是那有關信心案件還是由這個國安軍事來審理這樣子跟這個\n\n04:44.079 --> 05:01.112\n跟我們的這個國安軍事專庭設置的這個精神會不會讓他的附和跟他設置的精神有沒有漢格之處因為像那個在陳平的時候如果軍人設範那個這個軍刑法的時候這個時候是屬於那個\n\n05:04.526 --> 05:26.417\n如果是依專庭的設計的話因為你們這個軍事你們用過去軍事審判承平時期軍事審判的觀念來設置來規定這樣子的競合辦法但是事實上這個我們的國安軍事審判專庭它裡面很重要的一個不同的職能是有關國安案件所以就國安案件的專業而言它來整理原住民軍人身份\n\n05:28.269 --> 05:53.620\n原住民身份在法律上面有一些不同的程序但是他卻指應他是軍人所以他把這個案件納到國安跟軍事專庭裡面我認為這個是有值得檢討之處因為就是在那個法院的設計裡面就是說涉及到那個如果當事人是原民的時候他有他就是原民專業那個背景那另外就是說那個國安對原民專業背景跟國安軍事專庭的精神\n\n05:54.460 --> 06:20.028\n我就是認為有可是在有些案件的時候它會同時發生我知道這就是競合嘛那這個就是一種選擇就是用選擇就是說我們覺得哪一類的那我個人認為啦所以我在這邊的主張就是你們是不是來檢討一下在未來在軍事審判制度恢復之前我們把這樣子的競合全部由國安軍事法庭來審理我個人認為是有值得檢討之處啦我認為說這樣子的競合我們不一定因為它軍人身份我們就要由國安專庭來審理啊\n\n06:21.648 --> 06:40.567\n這樣子你會讓國安軍事專庭他的專業的角色會模糊掉而且他專業所投入的這些專業範疇也會讓他擴大啊報告委員我解釋一下要舉個例子今天假設說是一個原名他是那個軍人或者是說他涉犯這種共諜案的時候沒有\n\n06:44.210 --> 07:10.170\n共諜案是共諜案他即使不是共諜案但是他原住民的身份你們現在原住民身份競合了你們跟下競合就是說他有涉犯國安這樣子的事情或者是說他是屬於不是喔你如果說軍人性侵軍人性侵跟國安可能可能他跟國安沒有任何但軍人性侵的部分他就因為他性侵他的軍人角色所以他競合了競合你們就由國安軍事專庭來審理\n\n07:11.803 --> 07:20.845\n原住民也是一樣他有軍人又有原住民身份你們就由國安軍事專庭來審理並不是他涉案的不一定是國安案件不是國安案件也是由國安軍事專庭來審理啊\n\n07:22.186 --> 07:33.529\n我們現在是有兩類一類是軍事審判還有的是國安那這兩個通通都是在一個鑽停我知道所以我認為這樣子的設計是有值得檢討之處你們回去檢討這是第一個問題我們目前也有設置我們這個目前國安\n\n07:45.785 --> 08:08.430\n這個最大的國安專庭最大的問題就是大家認為說這個法官在國安專業上面這個有一般的一般受司法訓練他在國安方面的這些相關的這些認知可能會有所不足因此我們現在設計的是研習制度研習制度就每年應該參加有關相關專業研習案件合計時間達12個小時一年12個小時一天做2個小時就是6天\n\n08:13.511 --> 08:20.915\n一年12個小時他是不是能夠就因此具備足夠的國安專業來進行這樣的審理你們有進行相關的評估嗎\n\n08:25.063 --> 08:50.901\n我之前問你們說你們有進行意見調查意見調查結果大部分的法官都認為說有幫助有幫助是有幫助的當然是有幫助啦沒設置他當然是有幫助但是他的成效如何這個是不是用意見調查的方式而是應該你們要下去評估這樣子12小時的研習是不是足以讓他們負擔這部分請你們要評估啦因為事實上我這些案件目前這些案件有很多案件這些\n\n08:51.821 --> 09:08.349\n這些延讓的很大的原因就是有關這些相關的這些橫向的聯繫都不足了你們這些有些這個機密事項到底在機密等級到底是在什麼樣的等級你們去函國防部國防部給你拖時間拖很久回復的時間很慢然後回來的這個內容又很簡要\n\n09:13.591 --> 09:39.114\n檢要或抽象讓你們法院無從就這樣的國防部所提供的相關的這些這種橫向聯繫是有很大的問題這監察院有提出報告部長知道嗎是這部分你們有什麼樣的這個可能法務部這個法務部有關相關的這些橫向聯繫這個我們法務部這邊是不是是不是應該要由法務部這邊來建立相關的平台\n\n09:39.585 --> 10:03.474\n他有關你平台的建立那個最高檢察署齁以及各地檢署都以國防部齁對軍事單位都有建立那個個案處理的聯繫平台那另外那個國防部啦現在目前的這些相關的國安案件齁我們包括司法警察包括這個這個政戰局保安處這些軍安總隊這些都這個都應該在納在這個平台之內\n\n10:04.154 --> 10:26.833\n這個最高檢察署跟國防部有建立那個平台你這個平台用這個平台來降低你這種所有橫向聯繫目前橫向聯繫上最大的困難我剛剛講的是實務上法官所講最大的困難就是國防部回復很慢回復很慢而且回復很簡要而且很抽象去兩個月之後給你回一個就只有給你法條而已說什麼樣哪一種列A級哪一種列B級\n\n10:29.035 --> 10:47.480\n舊個案他還沒有給你必須再去函附詢問第二次這樣子的這些橫向的聯繫平台我認為法務部應該要來建議起來這個時間的關係再來談一個我個人認為說目前這個制度上面有一個\n\n10:48.595 --> 11:17.553\n比較重要的就是說有關我們現在有法規這個國家機密保護法第25條它規定說目前部長請回我這個接下來是司法院的問題我們目前按照這個國家機密保護法這個法院這個第25條第一項說法院檢查機關設立是國家機密案件其程序不予公開我知道我們現在的做法幾乎這些國安案件它所有的檔案都沒有辦法公開不只是\n\n11:18.453 --> 11:38.428\n沒有對社會公開連我們院內不同懲判也都沒有公開也就是說不同的法官我根本就不曉得其他國安案件所有的審理的程序完全一無所知跟他判決的結果的相關的理由等等這些案由通通都是機密對不對我們現在目前都列機密對不對\n\n11:40.950 --> 11:55.337\n那這個我個人認為說這樣子的這個當然這個國安案件他當時設計說國安案件機密他程序不予公開他有一定的基於國家安全的考量對於機密事項的考量但是這樣子的設計他對於\n\n11:57.118 --> 12:24.298\n這個他對於這個是不是能夠進行公平的審判以及這樣子的審判他的結果是不是符合這個社會的法義這樣相關的這些監督還有這個他的程序正義究竟有沒有保障以及他的這個甚至你對於未來學界以及我們大家社會各界要研究相關的這些國安案件的關聯性他的這些國安案件的這些學術累積幾乎都不可能\n\n12:25.438 --> 12:45.503\n都妨礙到了就因為你們現在目前的這種完全不公開的這樣子的辦法使得我剛剛所講的這些都成為問題那我不是說他所以他就必須要大公開也不是那我認為說有一些像美國有一些做法我是覺得值得參考他有一些提示\n\n12:46.923 --> 13:14.876\n他美國有關於這個如何提示這些機密資訊他們都有一套相關的規定有一些去識別化有一些用代號等等相關的方式而不是說整個因為他是國安案件所以他是完全就不能公開甚至連不同同樣法院裡面不同的法官他也沒辦法去了解這個國安案件這個案件假案跟已案我連想參考假案的判決可能我都沒有辦法因為他是機密完全不公開的這部分是不是我們司法院檢討一下\n\n13:15.524 --> 13:34.639\n是那我們再研議好不好你們研議那目前有關這個我知道你們現在國安案件最重要的你們很多都按照你們的量刑指引在判決那這個量刑指引你們也應該要有定期的檢討這部分我未來有時間再跟我們院來進行討論好以上好謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":12.68,"end":24.613,"text":"主席我先請司法院副秘書長麻煩司法院副秘書長另外是不是也請國防部國防部今天有兩位代表我們請法律事務司的處長"},{"start":32.517,"end":46.993,"text":"我們今天的主題第一個部分是有關軍事審判專庭跟專股執行的現況這個部分目前我們是依照國安法第19條我們都設有國安軍事專業案件的專庭跟專股未來但是在這個"},{"start":54.558,"end":68.928,"text":"這個今年我們總統有宣示那我們這個部長也有表示我們未來將會要恢復這個軍事審判制度恢復軍事審判制度之後這個未來這個有關國安跟軍事的審判專庭的部分應該會有"},{"start":70.189,"end":89.828,"text":"會有所改變,制度會有所改變所以我大概這是先請國防部來說明一下目前有關這個軍事這個我們部長也提到說強調說要確保未來這個軍法官的獨立性我目前的規劃跟這個進度怎麼樣我們這個有關於這個這個軍法官的未來這個來源跟他現在狀況的規劃"},{"start":91.169,"end":117.448,"text":"好 委員好 我是國防部法律司法律調查處處長那至於這個剛委員提到這個軍法官獨立的部分因為其實這次修法除了軍事審判制度以外其實最重要就是針對組織跟人事部分要設計出一套法律來保障軍法官獨立審判的一個對 這個是最重要的那這部分其實我們目前都在參考司法院法官法我們現在國防部有沒有開始跟司法院"},{"start":118.568,"end":132.701,"text":"來進行有關於未來這個法官包括法官人才來源的這個相關的討論有沒有開啟還是你們其實目前是國防部自己在願意目前我們部裡面在草擬條文那也會跟國外集團也會做協調目前有嗎"},{"start":133.562,"end":147.966,"text":"有跟那個我們目前我們司法院有跟國防部有接到國防部有關這個本來就是預計今天早上國防部會來跟司法院洽談這方面的那個本來就今天早上要洽談後來取消了對因為立法院開本委員會妨礙了這個這個你們未來軍法制度的設計的進度就對了沒有沒有"},{"start":154.868,"end":176.047,"text":"不是這樣子我們改時間我現在意思就是說我認為說談那麼久我們這個國防部跟司法院應該就未來這個所謂這個軍法官確保軍法官獨立性的這些相關制度設計以及法官的來源我們應該要有所接觸應該要有所研習才對啊好那這部分國防部我們請回我接下來請問"},{"start":177.816,"end":206.05,"text":"那在這個未來這個軍事審判制度這個恢復之前這個目前我們的所採取的這個所謂國安軍事審判專庭專股的這個目前的這個狀況我就目前的狀況來跟這個我們的這個副秘書長來這邊指教一下這個我們現在目前是依照國安法第19條所以我們這國安要設置國安跟這個這個軍事專業案件的專庭專股"},{"start":207.27,"end":225.467,"text":"那在這個國安法第19條之下我們這個司法院有一個有關各級法院法官辦理案件年度司法事務分配辦法對不對依照這個分配辦法下來分配哪一些案件是要屬於所謂國安跟軍事專股那我特別注意到這個辦法"},{"start":227.268,"end":253.828,"text":"這個分配辦法裡面的這個附表二有關刑事失誤的部分第六項有關這個國安軍事專業案件裡面的這個裡面的第二款有提到這個上開案件與其他專業案件競合的時候由國安專業軍事法庭審理那這部分這個意思我看它競合包括如性侵原住民貪汙等等這樣子的"},{"start":255.956,"end":278.775,"text":"的競合都有國安軍事來審理這樣的制度設計他的精神是什麼幫我委員就是其實他就是你們可能是軍人身份觸犯這些軍人身份他跟他有跟原住民身份有競合的時候你們還是由這個國安軍事專庭來審理是那有關信心案件還是由這個國安軍事來審理這樣子跟這個"},{"start":284.079,"end":301.112,"text":"跟我們的這個國安軍事專庭設置的這個精神會不會讓他的附和跟他設置的精神有沒有漢格之處因為像那個在陳平的時候如果軍人設範那個這個軍刑法的時候這個時候是屬於那個"},{"start":304.526,"end":326.417,"text":"如果是依專庭的設計的話因為你們這個軍事你們用過去軍事審判承平時期軍事審判的觀念來設置來規定這樣子的競合辦法但是事實上這個我們的國安軍事審判專庭它裡面很重要的一個不同的職能是有關國安案件所以就國安案件的專業而言它來整理原住民軍人身份"},{"start":328.269,"end":353.62,"text":"原住民身份在法律上面有一些不同的程序但是他卻指應他是軍人所以他把這個案件納到國安跟軍事專庭裡面我認為這個是有值得檢討之處因為就是在那個法院的設計裡面就是說涉及到那個如果當事人是原民的時候他有他就是原民專業那個背景那另外就是說那個國安對原民專業背景跟國安軍事專庭的精神"},{"start":354.46,"end":380.028,"text":"我就是認為有可是在有些案件的時候它會同時發生我知道這就是競合嘛那這個就是一種選擇就是用選擇就是說我們覺得哪一類的那我個人認為啦所以我在這邊的主張就是你們是不是來檢討一下在未來在軍事審判制度恢復之前我們把這樣子的競合全部由國安軍事法庭來審理我個人認為是有值得檢討之處啦我認為說這樣子的競合我們不一定因為它軍人身份我們就要由國安專庭來審理啊"},{"start":381.648,"end":400.567,"text":"這樣子你會讓國安軍事專庭他的專業的角色會模糊掉而且他專業所投入的這些專業範疇也會讓他擴大啊報告委員我解釋一下要舉個例子今天假設說是一個原名他是那個軍人或者是說他涉犯這種共諜案的時候沒有"},{"start":404.21,"end":430.17,"text":"共諜案是共諜案他即使不是共諜案但是他原住民的身份你們現在原住民身份競合了你們跟下競合就是說他有涉犯國安這樣子的事情或者是說他是屬於不是喔你如果說軍人性侵軍人性侵跟國安可能可能他跟國安沒有任何但軍人性侵的部分他就因為他性侵他的軍人角色所以他競合了競合你們就由國安軍事專庭來審理"},{"start":431.803,"end":440.845,"text":"原住民也是一樣 他有軍人又有原住民身份 你們就由國安軍事專庭來審理並不是 他涉案的不一定是國安案件不是國安案件 也是由國安軍事專庭來審理啊"},{"start":442.186,"end":453.529,"text":"我們現在是有兩類一類是軍事審判還有的是國安那這兩個通通都是在一個鑽停我知道所以我認為這樣子的設計是有值得檢討之處你們回去檢討這是第一個問題我們目前也有設置我們這個目前國安"},{"start":465.785,"end":488.43,"text":"這個最大的國安專庭最大的問題就是大家認為說這個法官在國安專業上面這個有一般的一般受司法訓練他在國安方面的這些相關的這些認知可能會有所不足因此我們現在設計的是研習制度研習制度就每年應該參加有關相關專業研習案件合計時間達12個小時一年12個小時一天做2個小時就是6天"},{"start":493.511,"end":500.915,"text":"一年12個小時他是不是能夠就因此具備足夠的國安專業來進行這樣的審理你們有進行相關的評估嗎"},{"start":505.063,"end":530.901,"text":"我之前問你們說你們有進行意見調查意見調查結果大部分的法官都認為說有幫助有幫助是有幫助的當然是有幫助啦沒設置他當然是有幫助但是他的成效如何這個是不是用意見調查的方式而是應該你們要下去評估這樣子12小時的研習是不是足以讓他們負擔這部分請你們要評估啦因為事實上我這些案件目前這些案件有很多案件這些"},{"start":531.821,"end":548.349,"text":"這些延讓的很大的原因就是有關這些相關的這些橫向的聯繫都不足了你們這些有些這個機密事項到底在機密等級到底是在什麼樣的等級你們去函國防部國防部給你拖時間拖很久回復的時間很慢然後回來的這個內容又很簡要"},{"start":553.591,"end":579.114,"text":"檢要或抽象讓你們法院無從就這樣的國防部所提供的相關的這些這種橫向聯繫是有很大的問題這監察院有提出報告 部長知道嗎是這部分你們有什麼樣的這個可能法務部這個法務部有關相關的這些橫向聯繫這個我們法務部這邊是不是是不是應該要由法務部這邊來建立相關的平台"},{"start":579.585,"end":603.474,"text":"他有關你平台的建立那個最高檢察署齁以及各地檢署都以國防部齁對軍事單位都有建立那個個案處理的聯繫平台那另外那個國防部啦現在目前的這些相關的國安案件齁我們包括司法警察包括這個這個政戰局保安處這些軍安總隊這些都這個都應該在納在這個平台之內"},{"start":604.154,"end":626.833,"text":"這個最高檢察署跟國防部有建立那個平台你這個平台用這個平台來降低你這種所有橫向聯繫目前橫向聯繫上最大的困難我剛剛講的是實務上法官所講最大的困難就是國防部回復很慢回復很慢而且回復很簡要而且很抽象去兩個月之後給你回一個就只有給你法條而已說什麼樣哪一種列A級哪一種列B級"},{"start":629.035,"end":647.48,"text":"舊個案他還沒有給你必須再去函附詢問第二次這樣子的這些橫向的聯繫平台我認為法務部應該要來建議起來這個時間的關係再來談一個我個人認為說目前這個制度上面有一個"},{"start":648.595,"end":677.553,"text":"比較重要的就是說有關我們現在有法規這個國家機密保護法第25條它規定說目前部長請回我這個接下來是司法院的問題我們目前按照這個國家機密保護法這個法院這個第25條第一項說法院檢查機關設立是國家機密案件其程序不予公開我知道我們現在的做法幾乎這些國安案件它所有的檔案都沒有辦法公開不只是"},{"start":678.453,"end":698.428,"text":"沒有對社會公開連我們院內不同懲判也都沒有公開也就是說不同的法官我根本就不曉得其他國安案件所有的審理的程序完全一無所知跟他判決的結果的相關的理由等等這些案由通通都是機密對不對我們現在目前都列機密對不對"},{"start":700.95,"end":715.337,"text":"那這個我個人認為說這樣子的這個當然這個國安案件他當時設計說國安案件機密他程序不予公開他有一定的基於國家安全的考量對於機密事項的考量但是這樣子的設計他對於"},{"start":717.118,"end":744.298,"text":"這個他對於這個是不是能夠進行公平的審判以及這樣子的審判他的結果是不是符合這個社會的法義這樣相關的這些監督還有這個他的程序正義究竟有沒有保障以及他的這個甚至你對於未來學界以及我們大家社會各界要研究相關的這些國安案件的關聯性他的這些國安案件的這些學術累積幾乎都不可能"},{"start":745.438,"end":765.503,"text":"都妨礙到了就因為你們現在目前的這種完全不公開的這樣子的辦法使得我剛剛所講的這些都成為問題那我不是說他所以他就必須要大公開也不是那我認為說有一些像美國有一些做法我是覺得值得參考他有一些提示"},{"start":766.923,"end":794.876,"text":"他美國有關於這個如何提示這些機密資訊他們都有一套相關的規定有一些去識別化有一些用代號等等相關的方式而不是說整個因為他是國安案件所以他是完全就不能公開甚至連不同同樣法院裡面不同的法官他也沒辦法去了解這個國安案件這個案件假案跟已案我連想參考假案的判決可能我都沒有辦法因為他是機密完全不公開的這部分是不是我們司法院檢討一下"},{"start":795.524,"end":814.639,"text":"是 那我們再研議好不好 你們研議那目前有關這個我知道你們現在國安案件最重要的你們很多都按照你們的量刑指引在判決那這個量刑指引你們也應該要有定期的檢討這部分我未來有時間再跟我們院來進行討論好 以上好 謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":633,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時12分）主席，我先請司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：好，麻煩司法院副秘書長。"],["沈委員發惠：另外是不是也請國防部？"],["主席：國防部今天有兩位代表來。"],["沈委員發惠：我們請法律事務司的處長。","我們今天的主題第一個部分是有關軍事審判專庭跟專股的執行現況，這個部分，目前依照國安法第十九條，我們都設有國安軍事專業案件的專庭跟專股，但是今年我們總統有宣示，部長也有表示，我們未來將會恢復軍事審判制度，恢復軍事審判制度之後，未來有關國安跟軍事審判專庭的部分，應該會有所改變，制度會有所改變，所以我大概先請國防部來說明一下，目前有關軍事審判的部分，我們部長也強調要確保未來軍法官的獨立性，目前的規劃跟進度怎麼樣？有關於軍法官未來的來源跟現在狀況的規劃。"],["王處長正誼：委員好，我是國防部法律司法紀調查處處長。至於剛剛委員提到軍法官獨立的部分，因為這次修法除了軍事審判制度以外，其實最重要的是針對組織跟人事部分要設計出一套法律來保障軍法官獨立審判的一個制度。"],["沈委員發惠：對，這個是最重要的。"],["王處長正誼：這部分其實我們目前都在參考司法院法官法以及相關的組織法……"],["沈委員發惠：現在國防部有沒有開始跟司法院來進行有關於未來包括法官人才來源的相關討論，有沒有開啟？還是你們其實目前是國防部自己在研議？"],["王處長正誼：目前我們部裡面在草擬條文，也會跟相關機關協調。"],["沈委員發惠：有嗎？目前有嗎？副秘書長，目前司法院有接到國防部有關這個……"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，本來就是預計今天早上國防部來跟司法院洽談這方面的議題……"],["沈委員發惠：本來就今天早上要洽談？"],["王副秘書長梅英：對，後來取消了，因為國防部……"],["沈委員發惠：因為立法院本委員會開會，妨礙你們未來軍法制度的設計進度就對了？"],["王副秘書長梅英：沒有，沒有，不是這樣子，我們改時間。"],["沈委員發惠：不是這樣？我知道啦！我的意思是說，我認為談那麼久，國防部跟司法院應該就未來所謂確保軍法官獨立性的這些相關制度設計以及法官的來源等有所接觸、有所研習才對啊！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：好，國防部請回。未來軍事審判制度恢復之前，目前是採取所謂的國安軍事審判專庭、專股，就目前的狀況，我要跟副秘書長請教。目前依照國安法第十九條設置國安跟軍事專業案件的專庭、專股，在國安法第十九條之下，司法院有一個「各級法院法官辦理案件年度司法事務分配辦法」，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：依照這個分配辦法來分配哪一些案件是屬於所謂國安跟軍事專股，我特別注意到這個分配辦法的附表二有關刑事事務部分，其中第六項是國安軍事專業案件第二款提到，上開案件與其他專業案件競合時，由國安專業軍事法庭審理。這當中的競合，包括如性侵、原住民、貪污等，這種情形的競合，都是由國安軍事法庭審理，請問這樣的制度設計精神是什麼？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，就是……"],["沈委員發惠：可能是軍人身分觸犯這些罪，而軍人身分跟原住民身分有競合的時候，還是由國安軍事專庭來審理……"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：有關性侵案件，還是由國安軍事法庭審理，這樣國安軍事專庭的負荷以及其設置的精神，有沒有扞格之處？"],["王副秘書長梅英：在承平的時候，如果軍人涉犯軍刑法時，依專庭的設計……"],["沈委員發惠：你們是用過去承平時期軍事審判的觀念來規定這樣的競合辦法，但事實上，國安軍事審判專庭很重要的一個不同的職能是有關國安案件，所以就國安案件的專業而言，他要來審理原住民軍人身分，而原住民身分在法律上有一些不同的程序，但因為指定為軍人，所以把這個案件也納到國安軍事專庭裡面，我認為這有值得檢討之處。"],["王副秘書長梅英：在那個法院的設計，就是如果當事人是原民的時候，他有他原民專業的背景，另外就是國安跟軍事……"],["沈委員發惠：對，原民專業背景跟國安軍事專庭的精神，我就是認為有……"],["王副秘書長梅英：可是在有些案件，它會同時發生……"],["沈委員發惠：我知道，這是一種競合嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：對，這就是一種選擇……"],["沈委員發惠：但競合……"],["王副秘書長梅英：就是用選擇，我們覺得哪一個……"],["沈委員發惠：這是我個人認為啦，所以我在這邊主張你們是不是來檢討一下，未來在軍事審判制度恢復之前，把這些競合的部分全部由國安軍事法庭審理，我個人認為是有值得檢討之處，我認為這些案件，不一定要因為他是軍人身分，就規定由國安專庭審理，這樣會讓國安軍事專庭的專業角色模糊掉，而且它所投入的這些專業範疇也會擴大啊！"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，我解釋一下。我舉個例子，今天假設是一個原民，他是軍人，或者是……"],["沈委員發惠：我知道啦！"],["王副秘書長梅英：涉犯共諜案的時候，因為它的本質……"],["沈委員發惠：沒有，共諜案是共諜案，即使不是共諜案，但因為他是原住民身分，現在原住民身分競合了，你們跟……"],["王副秘書長梅英：競合就是說他有涉犯國安這樣的事情，或者是說他是屬於……"],["沈委員發惠：不是喔！如果是軍人性侵，軍人性侵可能跟國安沒有任何相關……"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，我們現在……"],["沈委員發惠：軍人性侵的部分，因為他性侵，而他有軍人角色，所以競合了，你們就由國安軍事專庭來審理；原住民也一樣，他是軍人，又有原住民身分，就由國安軍事專庭審理，但他涉案的不一定是國安案件，不是國安案件也要由國安軍事專庭審理啊！"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，我們現在有兩類，一類是軍事審判，還有一個是國安，這兩個通通都是在一個專庭。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道，所以我認為這樣的設計有值得檢討之處，請你們回去檢討啦！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是，我們會檢討。"],["沈委員發惠：這是第一個問題。另外，目前國安專庭最大的問題，就是大家認為法官受一般司法訓練，但他在國安方面的相關認知可能有所不足，因此設計出一套研習制度，即每年應參加與該專業案件有關之研習，合計時間達12小時。一年12小時，一天如果2小時，就差不多是6天，但一年12小時的研習，是不是因此具備足夠的國安專業來進行這樣的審理，你們有進行相關的評估嗎？我之前問你們時，你們說有進行意見調查，意見調查結果，大部分的法官認為有幫助。有幫助是有幫助，當然是有幫助，但是成效如何，不是用意見調查方式了解，而是你們應該要去評估這樣的12小時研習，是不是足以讓他們負有相關的專業？這部分請你們去評估。事實上，目前很多案件延宕的很大原因，就是相關的橫向聯繫不足，有些機密事項，到底機密等級到什麼等級，你們去函問國防部，國防部時間拖很久，回復的時間緩慢，而且內容又很簡要或抽象，讓法院無從就國防部所提供的相關資料進行了解，這種橫向聯繫的問題，其實監察院也曾提出報告，部長，你知道嗎？這部分你們有什麼樣的檢討？這個可能跟法務部有關，有關相關的橫向聯繫，是不是應該由法務部來建立相關的平臺？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有關於平臺的建立，最高檢察署以及各地檢署都有和國防部、軍事單位建立個案處理的聯繫平臺。"],["沈委員發惠：這是個案處理……"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外……"],["沈委員發惠：有關國安案件處理的相關單位，包括司法警察，包括政戰局、保安處、軍安總隊等，都應該納在這個平臺之內……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個最高檢察署跟國防部有建立平臺。"],["沈委員發惠：應該利用這個平臺來降低目前所有橫向聯繫上的最大困難，我剛剛講的是實務上法官認為的最大困難，包括國防部回復很慢，而且回復內容很簡要且抽象，去文兩個月之後，有時就只有回你一個法條而已，說什麼哪一種列A級，哪一種列B級，但個案問題就必須再去函詢問第二次，這樣的橫向聯繫平臺，我認為法務部應該要建立起來。","時間關係，我再談一個我個人認為目前這個制度上一個比較重要的問題，這是有關司法院的問題。按照國家機密保護法第二十五條第一項規定，法院、檢察機關受理之案件涉及國家機密時，其程序不公開之。我知道這是目前的作法，幾乎這些國安案件所有的檔案都沒辦法公開，不只沒有對社會公開，連對院內不同承辦者也都沒有公開，也就是說不同的法官根本就不曉得其他的國安案件所有的審理程序跟判決結果的相關理由等等，通通一無所知，通通都是機密，對不對？目前是都列為機密，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：當然針對國安案件，當時的設計是列為機密，程序上不予公開，基於國家安全，這有一定的考量，也是對於機密事項保護的考量，但是這樣的設計，是不是能夠進行公平審判；這樣的審判結果，是不是符合社會法益；以及這樣的相關監督，還有它的程序正義究竟有沒有保障，甚至對於未來學界以及社會各界要研究相關國安案件的關聯性、這些國安案件的學術累積，幾乎都不可能，都妨礙到了，就因為你們目前這種完全不公開的辦法，使得我剛剛所講的這些都成為問題。我的意思不是說，所以它就必須要大公開，也不是！但我認為像美國有一些作法是值得參考的，他有一些提示，有關於如何提示這些機密資訊，美國都有一套相關的規定，有一些去識別化、有一些用代號等等相關的方式，而不是因為它是國安案件，所以就完全不能公開，甚至連同樣法院裡面不同的法官也沒辦法去了解這個國安案件，這個案件甲案跟乙案，我連想參考甲案的判決可能都沒有辦法，因為它是機密，完全不公開的。這部分司法院是不是檢討一下？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是，我們再研議。"],["沈委員發惠：你們去研議好不好？我知道現在國安案件最重要的，你們很多都是按照你們的量刑指引在判決，對於這個量刑指引，你們也應該要定期檢討，這個部分我未來有時間再跟你們院來進行討論。"],["王副秘書長梅英：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位請王義川委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","莊瑞雄","許宇甄","張啓楷","羅智強","陳冠廷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國\n防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、\n海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭（股）之執行現況，並就共諜滲透、機\n敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制，提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00003"}}}