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0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 977.042, \"end\": 977.062, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"羅\"}, {\"word\": \"許\", \"start\": 977.062, \"end\": 977.142, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"廷\", \"start\": 977.142, \"end\": 977.162, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,438 --> 00:00:09,866\n好謝謝主席啊劉思峰部長有請\n\n2\n00:00:12,506 --> 00:00:40,079\n好謝謝根據我們憲法108條一項二款規定行政區劃的事項應該由中央立法並執行之或交由省縣執行之然而現行行政區域的新設廢址或調整除村里林的編組跟調整或者是縣市合併升格直轄市等事項在地方制度法已有規定之外其他的各種行政區劃的調整基本上是沒有法源依據的那麼歷經時代更迭社會變遷人口流動產業結構\n\n3\n00:00:42,761 --> 00:01:06,095\n轉變區域發展等綜合因素形成的空間變遷其實有很多在台灣的各個角落有很多的行政區域其實急待調整去符合生活圈跟產業發展的趨勢去提升地方治理的品質跟效能所以我想推動行政區劃法它是有迫切的需求而且必須要於法治化希望在接下來的討論之中可以有更多委員來繼續支持行政區劃法的討論這個是我就要問一下部長\n\n4\n00:01:11,621 --> 00:01:17,095\n這剛剛委員這個張宏祿召委講的很多都是很合理的就希望他有審慎的討論但這個劉部長你知不知道這個行政區他的討論從什麼時候就開始了\n\n5\n00:01:22,757 --> 00:01:49,169\n從民國八十一年到現在三十幾年啦有改變過但是改變的不多啦改變的不多嘛對不對碰到的困擾還不少碰到的困擾不少嘛對不對所以歷經了李登輝總統陳水扁總統馬英九總統蔡英文總統等等好幾任分別都有不同的版本但每一次到最後都基本上就是不是卡在行政院沒有共識就是送進立法院之後因為屆期不連續而不了了之\n\n6\n00:01:49,309 --> 00:01:57,705\n我們有六次的部分有六次的部分我想部長也很清楚那我覺得這件事情也不是哪一個個別的委員基於選區的例據提出來的而是\n\n7\n00:02:01,121 --> 00:02:19,064\n而是我們現在總統當初的台南市長賴清德的心聲當初他在做台南市長的時候當然就談過財化法的問題他在做蔡英文總統手下的行政院長的時候他有講這個財政收支劃分法地方制度法行政區劃法是均衡台灣發展重要的三法\n\n8\n00:02:19,775 --> 00:02:44,430\n要來做處理嘛所以也是在我們賴清德總統當初擔任行政院長的時候其實就有提出院版的行政區劃法的草案嘛那時候叫行政區劃程序法嘛那有這樣的一個草案也進到了這個內政委員會的一讀會但是後來就沒有然後了嘛那當然就因為隨著行政院長的換人隨著屆期的不連續這案子又再次的胎死腹中這本行是覺得非常非常可惜啦\n\n9\n00:02:44,850 --> 00:02:57,317\n那我想行政區號就如同我剛剛講的就現在啊你除了縣市合併而且不只是合併喔你還能夠升格你可以利用地方制度法之外其他有很多的調整他其實是沒有辦法來做處理的下一張再下一張這看過了\n\n10\n00:03:01,345 --> 00:03:25,593\n我就舉我自己選區的例子啊這我龜山的這個回籠地區啊這當初本席那時候在賴清德總統提出院辦草案的時候本席那時候在競選這個第一次競選桃園市議員啊我在我回籠地區我就講這個地方很有趣啊它轄區是我桃園的龜山但是跟新北新莊跟我們新北樹林交界我們回籠地區啊這個電化區嘛我們桃園是03開頭但回籠是02啊然後他們繳電費要到新莊繳水費要到樹林啊\n\n11\n00:03:30,436 --> 00:03:33,934\n這就是這邊的生活基本上他的生活圈其實跟新北市的距離是比較近的\n\n12\n00:03:35,143 --> 00:04:04,282\n所以也因為這樣他常常被桃園自然而然他就是邊界的治理嘛他可能就變成末梢的地方那麼相對來講他得到的重視跟資源不管是藍綠執政都一樣他常常就是那個被遺忘的山不管地帶所以那時候我看到了中央當初有提行政區劃法的草案我覺得非常的高興啊所以我就在我們回鴻地區跟我們鄉親來講現在中央有打算要面對生活區調整的問題我們應該做好準備大家未來這個你可以把你的心聲大聲的講出來\n\n13\n00:04:05,403 --> 00:04:20,573\n後來回籠鄉親也很期待啊也因為這樣給了我很多的支持可是很遺憾的是我當選的議員之後後來發現這個法案並沒有通過那這個鄉親的溯源他一直想要把心情講出來這樣子的一個問題就遇到了重大的困難啊這就是行政區沒有辦法有效的遊戲規則來做討論的一個問題啊\n\n14\n00:04:24,355 --> 00:04:37,345\n部長像這樣子的問題你以你們現在行政院的統計你們過去其實也寫過草案像這樣子邊界三不管地帶然後可能有必要要透過行政區畫調整的方式全台灣一共有幾處你們有沒有做過統計可以沒問題\n\n15\n00:04:42,831 --> 00:05:03,397\n事實上這個有關區界的一個劃分的部分如果有一些不明的現行大概就可以這個來做處理那是那個是那個是間界的問題土地間界要不一樣我想生活圈的調整歷來有關行政計劃法的討論大概沒有通過原因就是\n\n16\n00:05:04,915 --> 00:05:26,754\n各界對於行政規劃大概都有各種不同的一個想像事實上這個各種的討論實際的討論放到法裡面來做處理可能就很難來做執行所以內政部109年送到行政院的版本是行政規劃程序法就提供一個行政規劃的遊戲規則\n\n17\n00:05:30,700 --> 00:05:51,541\n我要跟部長再補充啊其實也不只是跨縣市的這樣子的一個區域的一個重整我桃園市裡面啊兩個區之間有那種地界很奇怪的一樣生活圈不一樣的我哪怕是我桃園市裡面區跟區之間裡跟裡之間的調整他也都沒有辦法去處理這個就是現在的問題原因是什麼我沒有法源依據嘛\n\n18\n00:05:52,242 --> 00:06:06,549\n譬如說我龜山的山德里其實有一塊它其實離桃園的萬壽里比較近然後那個中間其實是有建築做區隔的但是一個畫區的時候畫畫在山德里面變得跟飛地一樣然後我曾經有跟桃園市議會質詢結果桃園市長說因為我們沒有一套\n\n19\n00:06:07,469 --> 00:06:26,123\n即便是我桃園市內部啊各區之間要做行政區的調整也沒有法源依據所以我講這些東西啊也許啊從全國宏觀的角度來看它可能只是一個很小的事情可是這對於在地的居民來講它是一件大事情所以我覺得剛剛我們市長有回答現在不管是成立院版的行政區劃法的行政區劃程序法\n\n20\n00:06:28,365 --> 00:06:52,698\n或者是本席這次提出的行政區劃法它其實概念是一樣的也就是需要一個全國可以適用的遊戲規則我很同意剛剛張宏祿召委講的你在做行政區劃的時候它會造成城鄉發展不均的問題啊它會造成地方的一些衝突所以每一個案子它都要經過充分討論這一點本席百分之百贊同但現在的問題不是沒有討論啦現在問題是連開始都不能開始因為你沒有任何的法源依據我現在請問部長\n\n21\n00:06:54,279 --> 00:07:10,574\n這個我看了你們的那個書面報告你們有寫113年啊這個最新你們委託出去的研究成果已經回到了行政院那以你們現在看完這些研究成果之後請問你們現在院版因為之前部長有講過嘛行政區法一定會有院版嘛對不對還是說現在不會有院版了部長\n\n22\n00:07:14,188 --> 00:07:43,348\n未來要有院版的話我們希望會有一個公聽的程序啦就是剛剛我有回答委員的問題啦第一個就是說我們現在到底要送的是行政區劃法還是行政區劃的程序法那這兩個是完全不同的概念行政區劃的程序法的話就是我們就是像委員所說的很簡單的一句話就是我們把遊戲規則弄出來讓中央跟地方政府有所遵循那但是呢這個部分呢就是要公聽以後包括縣市政府願意同意這樣的方式我們才推出來\n\n23\n00:07:43,948 --> 00:08:10,563\n所以推出來這個部分本來就是我們必須要處理的上個會期跟上上個會期其實本期都有在不管是夜報或者是專報的時候都有去提到這個概念那當初大家的回答都一樣就是一定會有院版但是你們要有點時間去整理我說OK你有時間去研究然後讓它推出來完整我是OK的但我想知道你現在經過了研究調查這些程序之後送進來的東西跟你當初啊賴清德總統做行政院院長的時候當初推出來的草案版本現在會不會有差別市長\n\n24\n00:08:13,996 --> 00:08:34,686\n基本上行政院針對跟地方制度法的界階的問題還有公投然後它是不是屬於行政處分它這個有關決定機關決定之後的效果等等大概法律上的這些問題還必須做深入的一個討論\n\n25\n00:08:35,906 --> 00:08:49,463\n還要討論那你們到底還要討論多久我今天就會幫我這些因為行政區化沒有辦法調整而受苦的民眾在發聲啊那你們到底要討論多久內政部已經把相關的意見在去年送到行政院那這個部分行政院應該會去審來做處理\n\n26\n00:08:52,365 --> 00:09:14,992\n我要問時間啊部長有沒有時間表你們要不要稍微加大一下力度說這是很多委員關心的事情目前還沒有那我要講的部分就是說可能請委員把它區分開來如果您剛所提的都是實質上的問題譬如說生活圈或者是居民的方便性那再來再次牽涉到說是屬於比較僵硬的制度就是說新北市政府跟桃園市政府之間那是實際溝通的問題嘛\n\n27\n00:09:16,693 --> 00:09:42,838\n就是程序上所以我們希望把程序定出來以後呢朝這方面但是呢我們把行政區劃的程序法送上去的時候似乎有一些不管是委員也好還有學者專家覺得說這樣不行我們要把這個實質的部分要放進去所以就有人提到說那財政收支劃分法是不是要一起納進來那這樣子就越複雜所以到目前為止呢行政區劃法沒有辦法單獨解決剛剛牛委員所提到的包括桃園的龜山我現在講我現在剛剛跟你講你說\n\n28\n00:09:44,838 --> 00:10:07,684\n我們其實要的只是一個遊戲規則因為你每一個個案到最後的深水區一定是地方的討論嘛對不對你一定是地方討論包括縣市政府的討論公民的差異等等因為中央也有這種這個稅賦上面的部分要處理啊沒錯但你要遊戲規則嘛就是地方稅你要納到什麼地方啊然後切割出去以後這個稅是留在原地還是要跟著一起我們現在我現在看到的版本其實跟當初的院版大同小異其實概念上也是遊戲規則\n\n29\n00:10:08,584 --> 00:10:22,995\n我建議是有遊戲規則就先把它訂出來就好你實際上遇到狀況討論的時候因為到了最後決定的一定是地方地方政府的討論結果嘛跟中央的專家中央也必須要表達意見啊我理解我理解但是所以因為這樣子所以你打算遊戲規則都不做\n\n30\n00:10:23,715 --> 00:10:41,640\n報告一下譬如說在委員所關心的包括像龜山或者迴龍的問題但是我們所碰到也有人告訴我們說我們可不可以北北基桃變成是一個大的城市那請問這個是中央的議題還是地方的議題或者是說汐止要不要跟基隆合併之類的那這些議題呢現在大家談這個議題都只能講而已嘛因為你連討論的平台跟遊戲規則跟法院依據都沒有嘛\n\n31\n00:10:47,282 --> 00:11:10,319\n所以都變成空談嘛我們現在至少要有一個法源依據它有機會可以執行你才能去思考說我到底要不要做這件事情對不對但是你不能因為說因為這個很複雜所以我連基本規則跟開始都沒有那不就等於是倒閉問題嗎我剛有回答過委員的問題就是說我們是不是可以跟地方政府再來把這相關的議題把它釐清清楚並不是表示說很複雜就不解決很複雜還是需要解決對嘛我要聽的是這個啦\n\n32\n00:11:11,980 --> 00:11:34,110\n對那在這裡面所牽涉到的部分就是我剛剛所說的我們本來在那個109之後呢想要把行政區劃法變成行政區劃的程序法讓它簡單一點我只提遊戲規則那當然委員你自己的版本又加了公民投票那另外一回事但是這個行政區劃的程序法在內部包括有一些這個學者跟專家他們就不同意他說你這樣沒有辦法解決這個問題所以我們變得又比較審慎要來重新評估也就是我們所說的在我們共識\n\n33\n00:11:40,313 --> 00:11:55,260\n共識不是法條共識都還沒有形成之前啊單獨送出去一個行政區劃法或行政區劃的程序法不夠完全好譬如說我們如果把這個行政區劃法送出去以後我看財政部一定馬上問說那請問一下這個地方稅怎麼樣做區分那其他的縣市議會有些議會覺得說我這邊割一塊出去了我的議員的這個名額又不見了\n\n34\n00:12:04,884 --> 00:12:28,019\n所以又跟地方制度有關我本來是希望說如果程序法比較完全的狀況之下盡量去因為我們現在是台灣是一個民意非常發達的部分盡量以地方制度的縣市議會或者是民意代表的抉擇為主但是呢這個又牽涉到說我不要減少我的利益我希望增加我的部分最後的結論一定是最後只有遊戲規則比較容易走啦\n\n35\n00:12:32,182 --> 00:12:54,934\n就是回到當初的曾經提出過的願板但是我們希望有共識才來推啦因為時間不夠了所以你現在打算要多多少時間之內你可以把剛剛張宏錄趙薇講的很好啊你至少要把你們現在研究成果跟困境你把資料提供給委員參考嘛這第一個第二個你們自己內政部會不會召開各縣市的這個協調會議啊或者是一個公聽會包含學者專家來你們會主動來辦嗎\n\n36\n00:12:57,366 --> 00:13:23,232\n我們在112年的時候就已經有辦過已經辦過了嘛可是我們希望說如果在立法院裡面有這樣的公聽程序的話可以再邀請地方縣市政府還有地方縣市議會可以來表達他們的意見這樣子我們再收攏這些意見的話可能會更好所以你們112年已經做過座談嘛對不對113年研究案的資料已經回來那就一個禮拜之內提供相關的資料給委員會做參考這是OK的吧\n\n37\n00:13:24,421 --> 00:13:39,978\n這個沒有問題對不對我們的委託研究嘛對委託研究嘛跟你那些困境你內政部要再補充一些書面報告什麼我覺得都OK你補充一些資料我們來安排公聽會我認為都很好好大家縣市政府再次來討論但是希望啊這是賴清德總統當做行政院長很重要的政見\n\n38\n00:13:40,939 --> 00:14:02,132\n不要這種跟民生生活有關的法案這種東西又被耽誤掉這本行是不接受的好不好我可以再等你一段時間等你的願板我都覺得是OK的但不能一等再等等到最後又變成屆期不連續那這樣對我的鄉親來講那就是很大的一個衝擊啦所以部長一個禮拜之內提供相關的資料我們來做後續的討論包含公聽會等等然後願板的時間表我們把它研擬出來這樣可以嗎\n\n39\n00:14:06,940 --> 00:14:22,198\n提供我們現在的資訊給那個委會各委員參考可以嗎我們看資料之後開公聽會到時候要請部長要配合應該沒有問題吧你們一定會配合嘛對不對也要跟縣市政府先講可能會有這樣一個事情可以嗎\n\n40\n00:14:23,578 --> 00:14:49,974\n那開完之後會不會院版會不會比較快一點公聽會的程序如果是委員會開的話是由委員會發函我們可以排啊我在這邊公開的承諾你我可以排啊我們可以用這個這個委員會的時間我們來安排就像之前討論其他修法公聽會一樣這當然可以開好不好那我們希望開了之前大家的資料要充分對不對而且開要有意義啊你不能開完之後然後又不了了之了嘛對不對我是希望今天可以問出院版的時間表啦\n\n41\n00:14:50,534 --> 00:15:16,468\n報告委員其實不是說開完之後不聊聊而是開完之後意見會非常的紛亂跟繁雜然後沒有辦法用一個行政區劃或是行政區劃程序法來解決我一直在提醒的是這一點所以賴清德總統當初做院長的時候就因為是這樣所以就不聊聊之了嗎藉其不續審也是一個原因啦到底是藉其不續審還是當初沒有公示啊因為他好像是第...對不起不然哪一年都提出來的對啊\n\n42\n00:15:17,588 --> 00:15:24,253\n107年提出來嘛然後109年之後就戒急不續審那到底是戒急不續審還是還是做不到\n\n43\n00:15:25,677 --> 00:15:49,683\n你就把話講清楚吧我無法回答你無法回答我現在沒這個資格那你覺得現在他當總統他還會不會想做這個事嗎我想只要能夠讓我們的行政區畫跟所有的生活圈的實質的部分呢充分配合然後讓所有的居民了解一下說行政區畫是在幫助他們做更好的生活的部分的建設尤其是公共建設的話大家都會樂觀其成啦對嘛你這個態度比較好報告委員\n\n44\n00:15:51,664 --> 00:16:17,162\n但是沒有共識齁倉促推出反而會是副作用很大我完全了解啊我們在這個地方質詢其實聽了就是個真相到底是因為沒有共識還是因為藉其不去去審因為沒有共識是不是造成他現在做總統之後不推這個事了就把他公開清楚講明白我覺得這樣子也沒有關係但是看起來我們需要多一點討論好那我們就趕快收集資料我們趕快來辦公廳會但我希望回到這法案的初衷可以解決人民生活的問題可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝羅許廷\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7438\t9866\t好 謝謝主席啊 劉思峰部長有請\n12506\t40079\t好 謝謝根據我們憲法108條一項二款規定行政區劃的事項應該由中央立法並執行之或交由省縣執行之然而現行行政區域的新設廢址或調整除村里林的編組跟調整或者是縣市合併升格直轄市等事項在地方制度法已有規定之外其他的各種行政區劃的調整基本上是沒有法源依據的那麼歷經時代更迭社會變遷人口流動產業結構\n42761\t66095\t轉變區域發展等綜合因素形成的空間變遷其實有很多在台灣的各個角落有很多的行政區域其實急待調整去符合生活圈跟產業發展的趨勢去提升地方治理的品質跟效能所以我想推動行政區劃法它是有迫切的需求而且必須要於法治化希望在接下來的討論之中可以有更多委員來繼續支持行政區劃法的討論這個是我就要問一下部長\n71621\t77095\t這剛剛委員這個張宏祿召委講的很多都是很合理的就希望他有審慎的討論但這個劉部長你知不知道這個行政區他的討論從什麼時候就開始了\n82757\t109169\t從民國八十一年到現在三十幾年啦有改變過但是改變的不多啦改變的不多嘛對不對碰到的困擾還不少碰到的困擾不少嘛對不對所以歷經了李登輝總統陳水扁總統馬英九總統蔡英文總統等等好幾任分別都有不同的版本但每一次到最後都基本上就是不是卡在行政院沒有共識就是送進立法院之後因為屆期不連續而不了了之\n109309\t117705\t我們有六次的部分有六次的部分我想部長也很清楚那我覺得這件事情也不是哪一個個別的委員基於選區的例據提出來的而是\n121121\t139064\t而是我們現在總統當初的台南市長賴清德的心聲當初他在做台南市長的時候當然就談過財化法的問題他在做蔡英文總統手下的行政院長的時候他有講這個財政收支劃分法地方制度法行政區劃法是均衡台灣發展重要的三法\n139775\t164430\t要來做處理嘛所以也是在我們賴清德總統當初擔任行政院長的時候其實就有提出院版的行政區劃法的草案嘛那時候叫行政區劃程序法嘛那有這樣的一個草案也進到了這個內政委員會的一讀會但是後來就沒有然後了嘛那當然就因為隨著行政院長的換人隨著屆期的不連續這案子又再次的胎死腹中這本行是覺得非常非常可惜啦\n164850\t177317\t那我想行政區號就如同我剛剛講的就現在啊你除了縣市合併而且不只是合併喔你還能夠升格你可以利用地方制度法之外其他有很多的調整他其實是沒有辦法來做處理的下一張再下一張這看過了\n181345\t205593\t我就舉我自己選區的例子啊這我龜山的這個回籠地區啊這當初本席那時候在賴清德總統提出院辦草案的時候本席那時候在競選這個第一次競選桃園市議員啊我在我回籠地區我就講這個地方很有趣啊它轄區是我桃園的龜山但是跟新北新莊跟我們新北樹林交界我們回籠地區啊這個電化區嘛我們桃園是03開頭但回籠是02啊然後他們繳電費要到新莊繳水費要到樹林啊\n210436\t213934\t這就是這邊的生活 基本上他的生活圈其實跟新北市的距離是比較近的\n215143\t244282\t所以也因為這樣他常常被桃園 自然而然他就是邊界的治理嘛他可能就變成末梢的地方那麼相對來講他得到的重視跟資源不管是藍綠執政都一樣他常常就是那個被遺忘的山不管地帶所以那時候我看到了中央當初有提行政區劃法的草案我覺得非常的高興啊所以我就在我們回鴻地區跟我們鄉親來講現在中央有打算要面對生活區調整的問題我們應該做好準備大家未來這個你可以把你的心聲大聲的講出來\n245403\t260573\t後來回籠鄉親也很期待啊也因為這樣給了我很多的支持可是很遺憾的是我當選的議員之後後來發現這個法案並沒有通過那這個鄉親的溯源他一直想要把心情講出來這樣子的一個問題就遇到了重大的困難啊這就是行政區沒有辦法有效的遊戲規則來做討論的一個問題啊\n264355\t277345\t部長 像這樣子的問題你以你們現在行政院的統計你們過去其實也寫過草案像這樣子邊界三不管地帶然後可能有必要要透過行政區畫調整的方式全台灣一共有幾處 你們有沒有做過統計可以沒問題\n282831\t303397\t事實上這個有關區界的一個劃分的部分如果有一些不明的現行大概就可以這個來做處理那是那個是那個是間界的問題土地間界要不一樣我想生活圈的調整歷來有關行政計劃法的討論大概沒有通過原因就是\n304915\t326754\t各界對於行政規劃大概都有各種不同的一個想像事實上這個各種的討論實際的討論放到法裡面來做處理可能就很難來做執行所以內政部109年送到行政院的版本是行政規劃程序法就提供一個行政規劃的遊戲規則\n330700\t351541\t我要跟部長再補充啊 其實也不只是跨縣市的這樣子的一個區域的一個重整我桃園市裡面啊 兩個區之間 有那種地界很奇怪的 一樣生活圈不一樣的我哪怕是我桃園市裡面 區跟區之間 裡跟裡之間的調整他也都沒有辦法去處理 這個就是現在的問題 原因是什麼 我沒有法源依據嘛\n352242\t366549\t譬如說我龜山的山德里其實有一塊它其實離桃園的萬壽里比較近然後那個中間其實是有建築做區隔的但是一個畫區的時候畫畫在山德里面變得跟飛地一樣然後我曾經有跟桃園市議會質詢結果桃園市長說因為我們沒有一套\n367469\t386123\t即便是我桃園市內部啊各區之間要做行政區的調整也沒有法源依據所以我講這些東西啊也許啊從全國宏觀的角度來看它可能只是一個很小的事情可是這對於在地的居民來講它是一件大事情所以我覺得剛剛我們市長有回答現在不管是成立院版的行政區劃法的行政區劃程序法\n388365\t412698\t或者是本席這次提出的行政區劃法它其實概念是一樣的也就是需要一個全國可以適用的遊戲規則我很同意剛剛張宏祿召委講的你在做行政區劃的時候它會造成城鄉發展不均的問題啊它會造成地方的一些衝突所以每一個案子它都要經過充分討論這一點本席百分之百贊同但現在的問題不是沒有討論啦現在問題是連開始都不能開始因為你沒有任何的法源依據我現在請問部長\n414279\t430574\t這個我看了你們的那個書面報告你們有寫113年啊這個最新你們委託出去的研究成果已經回到了行政院那以你們現在看完這些研究成果之後請問你們現在院版因為之前部長有講過嘛行政區法一定會有院版嘛對不對還是說現在不會有院版了部長\n434188\t463348\t未來要有院版的話我們希望會有一個公聽的程序啦就是剛剛我有回答委員的問題啦第一個就是說我們現在到底要送的是行政區劃法還是行政區劃的程序法那這兩個是完全不同的概念行政區劃的程序法的話就是我們就是像委員所說的很簡單的一句話就是我們把遊戲規則弄出來讓中央跟地方政府有所遵循那但是呢這個部分呢就是要公聽以後包括縣市政府願意同意這樣的方式我們才推出來\n463948\t490563\t所以推出來這個部分本來就是我們必須要處理的上個會期跟上上個會期其實本期都有在不管是夜報或者是專報的時候都有去提到這個概念那當初大家的回答都一樣就是一定會有院版但是你們要有點時間去整理我說OK你有時間去研究然後讓它推出來完整我是OK的但我想知道你現在經過了研究調查這些程序之後送進來的東西跟你當初啊賴清德總統做行政院院長的時候當初推出來的草案版本現在會不會有差別市長\n493996\t514686\t基本上行政院針對跟地方制度法的界階的問題還有公投然後它是不是屬於行政處分它這個有關決定機關決定之後的效果等等大概法律上的這些問題還必須做深入的一個討論\n515906\t529463\t還要討論 那你們到底還要討論多久我今天就會幫我這些因為行政區化沒有辦法調整而受苦的民眾在發聲啊那你們到底要討論多久內政部已經把相關的意見在去年送到行政院那這個部分行政院應該會去審來做處理\n532365\t554992\t我要問時間啊部長有沒有時間表你們要不要稍微加大一下力度說這是很多委員關心的事情目前還沒有那我要講的部分就是說可能請委員把它區分開來如果您剛所提的都是實質上的問題譬如說生活圈或者是居民的方便性那再來再次牽涉到說是屬於比較僵硬的制度就是說新北市政府跟桃園市政府之間那是實際溝通的問題嘛\n556693\t582838\t就是程序上所以我們希望把程序定出來以後呢朝這方面但是呢我們把行政區劃的程序法送上去的時候似乎有一些不管是委員也好還有學者專家覺得說這樣不行我們要把這個實質的部分要放進去所以就有人提到說那財政收支劃分法是不是要一起納進來那這樣子就越複雜所以到目前為止呢行政區劃法沒有辦法單獨解決剛剛牛委員所提到的包括桃園的龜山我現在講我現在剛剛跟你講你說\n584838\t607684\t我們其實要的只是一個遊戲規則因為你每一個個案到最後的深水區一定是地方的討論嘛對不對你一定是地方討論包括縣市政府的討論公民的差異等等因為中央也有這種這個稅賦上面的部分要處理啊沒錯但你要遊戲規則嘛就是地方稅你要納到什麼地方啊然後切割出去以後這個稅是留在原地還是要跟著一起我們現在我現在看到的版本其實跟當初的院版大同小異其實概念上也是遊戲規則\n608584\t622995\t我建議是有遊戲規則就先把它訂出來就好你實際上遇到狀況討論的時候因為到了最後決定的一定是地方地方政府的討論結果嘛跟中央的專家 中央也必須要表達意見啊我理解我理解但是所以因為這樣子所以你打算遊戲規則都不做\n623715\t641640\t報告一下譬如說在委員所關心的包括像龜山或者迴龍的問題但是我們所碰到也有人告訴我們說我們可不可以北北基桃變成是一個大的城市那請問這個是中央的議題還是地方的議題或者是說汐止要不要跟基隆合併之類的那這些議題呢現在大家談這個議題都只能講而已嘛因為你連討論的平台跟遊戲規則跟法院依據都沒有嘛\n647282\t670319\t所以都變成空談嘛我們現在至少要有一個法源依據它有機會可以執行你才能去思考說我到底要不要做這件事情對不對但是你不能因為說因為這個很複雜所以我連基本規則跟開始都沒有那不就等於是倒閉問題嗎我剛有回答過委員的問題就是說我們是不是可以跟地方政府再來把這相關的議題把它釐清清楚並不是表示說很複雜就不解決很複雜還是需要解決對嘛我要聽的是這個啦\n671980\t694110\t對那在這裡面所牽涉到的部分就是我剛剛所說的我們本來在那個109之後呢想要把行政區劃法變成行政區劃的程序法讓它簡單一點我只提遊戲規則那當然委員你自己的版本又加了公民投票那另外一回事但是這個行政區劃的程序法在內部包括有一些這個學者跟專家他們就不同意他說你這樣沒有辦法解決這個問題所以我們變得又比較審慎要來重新評估也就是我們所說的在我們共識\n700313\t715260\t共識不是法條共識都還沒有形成之前啊單獨送出去一個行政區劃法或行政區劃的程序法不夠完全好譬如說我們如果把這個行政區劃法送出去以後我看財政部一定馬上問說那請問一下這個地方稅怎麼樣做區分那其他的縣市議會有些議會覺得說我這邊割一塊出去了我的議員的這個名額又不見了\n724884\t748019\t所以又跟地方制度有關我本來是希望說如果程序法比較完全的狀況之下盡量去因為我們現在是台灣是一個民意非常發達的部分盡量以地方制度的縣市議會或者是民意代表的抉擇為主但是呢這個又牽涉到說我不要減少我的利益我希望增加我的部分最後的結論一定是最後只有遊戲規則比較容易走啦\n752182\t774934\t就是回到當初的曾經提出過的願板但是我們希望有共識才來推啦因為時間不夠了所以你現在打算要多多少時間之內你可以把剛剛張宏錄趙薇講的很好啊你至少要把你們現在研究成果跟困境你把資料提供給委員參考嘛這第一個第二個你們自己內政部會不會召開各縣市的這個協調會議啊或者是一個公聽會包含學者專家來你們會主動來辦嗎\n777366\t803232\t我們在112年的時候就已經有辦過已經辦過了嘛可是我們希望說如果在立法院裡面有這樣的公聽程序的話可以再邀請地方縣市政府還有地方縣市議會可以來表達他們的意見這樣子我們再收攏這些意見的話可能會更好所以你們112年已經做過座談嘛對不對113年研究案的資料已經回來那就一個禮拜之內提供相關的資料給委員會做參考這是OK的吧\n804421\t819978\t這個沒有問題對不對我們的委託研究嘛對 委託研究嘛 跟你那些困境你內政部要再補充一些書面報告什麼我覺得都OK你補充一些資料我們來安排公聽會 我認為都很好好 大家縣市政府再次來討論但是希望啊這是賴清德總統當做行政院長很重要的政見\n820939\t842132\t不要這種跟民生生活有關的法案這種東西又被耽誤掉這本行是不接受的好不好我可以再等你一段時間等你的願板我都覺得是OK的但不能一等再等等到最後又變成屆期不連續那這樣對我的鄉親來講那就是很大的一個衝擊啦所以部長一個禮拜之內提供相關的資料我們來做後續的討論包含公聽會等等然後願板的時間表我們把它研擬出來這樣可以嗎\n846940\t862198\t提供我們現在的資訊給那個委會各委員參考可以嗎我們看資料之後開公聽會到時候要請部長要配合應該沒有問題吧你們一定會配合嘛對不對也要跟縣市政府先講可能會有這樣一個事情可以嗎\n863578\t889974\t那開完之後會不會院版會不會比較快一點公聽會的程序如果是委員會開的話是由委員會發函我們可以排啊我在這邊公開的承諾你我可以排啊我們可以用這個這個委員會的時間我們來安排就像之前討論其他修法公聽會一樣這當然可以開好不好那我們希望開了之前大家的資料要充分對不對而且開要有意義啊你不能開完之後然後又不了了之了嘛對不對我是希望今天可以問出院版的時間表啦\n890534\t916468\t報告委員其實不是說開完之後不聊聊而是開完之後意見會非常的紛亂跟繁雜然後沒有辦法用一個行政區劃或是行政區劃程序法來解決我一直在提醒的是這一點所以賴清德總統當初做院長的時候就因為是這樣所以就不聊聊之了嗎藉其不續審也是一個原因啦到底是藉其不續審還是當初沒有公示啊因為他好像是第...對不起不然哪一年都提出來的對啊\n917588\t924253\t107年提出來嘛然後109年之後就戒急不續審那到底是戒急不續審還是還是做不到\n925677\t949683\t你就把話講清楚吧我無法回答你無法回答我現在沒這個資格那你覺得現在他當總統他還會不會想做這個事嗎我想只要能夠讓我們的行政區畫跟所有的生活圈的實質的部分呢充分配合然後讓所有的居民了解一下說行政區畫是在幫助他們做更好的生活的部分的建設尤其是公共建設的話大家都會樂觀其成啦對嘛你這個態度比較好報告委員\n951664\t977162\t但是沒有共識齁倉促推出反而會是副作用很大我完全了解啊我們在這個地方質詢其實聽了就是個真相到底是因為沒有共識還是因為藉其不去去審因為沒有共識是不是造成他現在做總統之後不推這個事了就把他公開清楚講明白我覺得這樣子也沒有關係但是看起來我們需要多一點討論好那我們就趕快收集資料我們趕快來辦公廳會但我希望回到這法案的初衷可以解決人民生活的問題可以嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝羅許廷\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席啊 劉思峰部長有請\n好 謝謝根據我們憲法108條一項二款規定行政區劃的事項應該由中央立法並執行之或交由省縣執行之然而現行行政區域的新設廢址或調整除村里林的編組跟調整或者是縣市合併升格直轄市等事項在地方制度法已有規定之外其他的各種行政區劃的調整基本上是沒有法源依據的那麼歷經時代更迭社會變遷人口流動產業結構\n轉變區域發展等綜合因素形成的空間變遷其實有很多在台灣的各個角落有很多的行政區域其實急待調整去符合生活圈跟產業發展的趨勢去提升地方治理的品質跟效能所以我想推動行政區劃法它是有迫切的需求而且必須要於法治化希望在接下來的討論之中可以有更多委員來繼續支持行政區劃法的討論這個是我就要問一下部長\n這剛剛委員這個張宏祿召委講的很多都是很合理的就希望他有審慎的討論但這個劉部長你知不知道這個行政區他的討論從什麼時候就開始了\n從民國八十一年到現在三十幾年啦有改變過但是改變的不多啦改變的不多嘛對不對碰到的困擾還不少碰到的困擾不少嘛對不對所以歷經了李登輝總統陳水扁總統馬英九總統蔡英文總統等等好幾任分別都有不同的版本但每一次到最後都基本上就是不是卡在行政院沒有共識就是送進立法院之後因為屆期不連續而不了了之\n我們有六次的部分有六次的部分我想部長也很清楚那我覺得這件事情也不是哪一個個別的委員基於選區的例據提出來的而是\n而是我們現在總統當初的台南市長賴清德的心聲當初他在做台南市長的時候當然就談過財化法的問題他在做蔡英文總統手下的行政院長的時候他有講這個財政收支劃分法地方制度法行政區劃法是均衡台灣發展重要的三法\n要來做處理嘛所以也是在我們賴清德總統當初擔任行政院長的時候其實就有提出院版的行政區劃法的草案嘛那時候叫行政區劃程序法嘛那有這樣的一個草案也進到了這個內政委員會的一讀會但是後來就沒有然後了嘛那當然就因為隨著行政院長的換人隨著屆期的不連續這案子又再次的胎死腹中這本行是覺得非常非常可惜啦\n那我想行政區號就如同我剛剛講的就現在啊你除了縣市合併而且不只是合併喔你還能夠升格你可以利用地方制度法之外其他有很多的調整他其實是沒有辦法來做處理的下一張再下一張這看過了\n我就舉我自己選區的例子啊這我龜山的這個回籠地區啊這當初本席那時候在賴清德總統提出院辦草案的時候本席那時候在競選這個第一次競選桃園市議員啊我在我回籠地區我就講這個地方很有趣啊它轄區是我桃園的龜山但是跟新北新莊跟我們新北樹林交界我們回籠地區啊這個電化區嘛我們桃園是03開頭但回籠是02啊然後他們繳電費要到新莊繳水費要到樹林啊\n這就是這邊的生活 基本上他的生活圈其實跟新北市的距離是比較近的\n所以也因為這樣他常常被桃園 自然而然他就是邊界的治理嘛他可能就變成末梢的地方那麼相對來講他得到的重視跟資源不管是藍綠執政都一樣他常常就是那個被遺忘的山不管地帶所以那時候我看到了中央當初有提行政區劃法的草案我覺得非常的高興啊所以我就在我們回鴻地區跟我們鄉親來講現在中央有打算要面對生活區調整的問題我們應該做好準備大家未來這個你可以把你的心聲大聲的講出來\n後來回籠鄉親也很期待啊也因為這樣給了我很多的支持可是很遺憾的是我當選的議員之後後來發現這個法案並沒有通過那這個鄉親的溯源他一直想要把心情講出來這樣子的一個問題就遇到了重大的困難啊這就是行政區沒有辦法有效的遊戲規則來做討論的一個問題啊\n部長 像這樣子的問題你以你們現在行政院的統計你們過去其實也寫過草案像這樣子邊界三不管地帶然後可能有必要要透過行政區畫調整的方式全台灣一共有幾處 你們有沒有做過統計可以沒問題\n事實上這個有關區界的一個劃分的部分如果有一些不明的現行大概就可以這個來做處理那是那個是那個是間界的問題土地間界要不一樣我想生活圈的調整歷來有關行政計劃法的討論大概沒有通過原因就是\n各界對於行政規劃大概都有各種不同的一個想像事實上這個各種的討論實際的討論放到法裡面來做處理可能就很難來做執行所以內政部109年送到行政院的版本是行政規劃程序法就提供一個行政規劃的遊戲規則\n我要跟部長再補充啊 其實也不只是跨縣市的這樣子的一個區域的一個重整我桃園市裡面啊 兩個區之間 有那種地界很奇怪的 一樣生活圈不一樣的我哪怕是我桃園市裡面 區跟區之間 裡跟裡之間的調整他也都沒有辦法去處理 這個就是現在的問題 原因是什麼 我沒有法源依據嘛\n譬如說我龜山的山德里其實有一塊它其實離桃園的萬壽里比較近然後那個中間其實是有建築做區隔的但是一個畫區的時候畫畫在山德里面變得跟飛地一樣然後我曾經有跟桃園市議會質詢結果桃園市長說因為我們沒有一套\n即便是我桃園市內部啊各區之間要做行政區的調整也沒有法源依據所以我講這些東西啊也許啊從全國宏觀的角度來看它可能只是一個很小的事情可是這對於在地的居民來講它是一件大事情所以我覺得剛剛我們市長有回答現在不管是成立院版的行政區劃法的行政區劃程序法\n或者是本席這次提出的行政區劃法它其實概念是一樣的也就是需要一個全國可以適用的遊戲規則我很同意剛剛張宏祿召委講的你在做行政區劃的時候它會造成城鄉發展不均的問題啊它會造成地方的一些衝突所以每一個案子它都要經過充分討論這一點本席百分之百贊同但現在的問題不是沒有討論啦現在問題是連開始都不能開始因為你沒有任何的法源依據我現在請問部長\n這個我看了你們的那個書面報告你們有寫113年啊這個最新你們委託出去的研究成果已經回到了行政院那以你們現在看完這些研究成果之後請問你們現在院版因為之前部長有講過嘛行政區法一定會有院版嘛對不對還是說現在不會有院版了部長\n未來要有院版的話我們希望會有一個公聽的程序啦就是剛剛我有回答委員的問題啦第一個就是說我們現在到底要送的是行政區劃法還是行政區劃的程序法那這兩個是完全不同的概念行政區劃的程序法的話就是我們就是像委員所說的很簡單的一句話就是我們把遊戲規則弄出來讓中央跟地方政府有所遵循那但是呢這個部分呢就是要公聽以後包括縣市政府願意同意這樣的方式我們才推出來\n所以推出來這個部分本來就是我們必須要處理的上個會期跟上上個會期其實本期都有在不管是夜報或者是專報的時候都有去提到這個概念那當初大家的回答都一樣就是一定會有院版但是你們要有點時間去整理我說OK你有時間去研究然後讓它推出來完整我是OK的但我想知道你現在經過了研究調查這些程序之後送進來的東西跟你當初啊賴清德總統做行政院院長的時候當初推出來的草案版本現在會不會有差別市長\n基本上行政院針對跟地方制度法的界階的問題還有公投然後它是不是屬於行政處分它這個有關決定機關決定之後的效果等等大概法律上的這些問題還必須做深入的一個討論\n還要討論 那你們到底還要討論多久我今天就會幫我這些因為行政區化沒有辦法調整而受苦的民眾在發聲啊那你們到底要討論多久內政部已經把相關的意見在去年送到行政院那這個部分行政院應該會去審來做處理\n我要問時間啊部長有沒有時間表你們要不要稍微加大一下力度說這是很多委員關心的事情目前還沒有那我要講的部分就是說可能請委員把它區分開來如果您剛所提的都是實質上的問題譬如說生活圈或者是居民的方便性那再來再次牽涉到說是屬於比較僵硬的制度就是說新北市政府跟桃園市政府之間那是實際溝通的問題嘛\n就是程序上所以我們希望把程序定出來以後呢朝這方面但是呢我們把行政區劃的程序法送上去的時候似乎有一些不管是委員也好還有學者專家覺得說這樣不行我們要把這個實質的部分要放進去所以就有人提到說那財政收支劃分法是不是要一起納進來那這樣子就越複雜所以到目前為止呢行政區劃法沒有辦法單獨解決剛剛牛委員所提到的包括桃園的龜山我現在講我現在剛剛跟你講你說\n我們其實要的只是一個遊戲規則因為你每一個個案到最後的深水區一定是地方的討論嘛對不對你一定是地方討論包括縣市政府的討論公民的差異等等因為中央也有這種這個稅賦上面的部分要處理啊沒錯但你要遊戲規則嘛就是地方稅你要納到什麼地方啊然後切割出去以後這個稅是留在原地還是要跟著一起我們現在我現在看到的版本其實跟當初的院版大同小異其實概念上也是遊戲規則\n我建議是有遊戲規則就先把它訂出來就好你實際上遇到狀況討論的時候因為到了最後決定的一定是地方地方政府的討論結果嘛跟中央的專家 中央也必須要表達意見啊我理解我理解但是所以因為這樣子所以你打算遊戲規則都不做\n報告一下譬如說在委員所關心的包括像龜山或者迴龍的問題但是我們所碰到也有人告訴我們說我們可不可以北北基桃變成是一個大的城市那請問這個是中央的議題還是地方的議題或者是說汐止要不要跟基隆合併之類的那這些議題呢現在大家談這個議題都只能講而已嘛因為你連討論的平台跟遊戲規則跟法院依據都沒有嘛\n所以都變成空談嘛我們現在至少要有一個法源依據它有機會可以執行你才能去思考說我到底要不要做這件事情對不對但是你不能因為說因為這個很複雜所以我連基本規則跟開始都沒有那不就等於是倒閉問題嗎我剛有回答過委員的問題就是說我們是不是可以跟地方政府再來把這相關的議題把它釐清清楚並不是表示說很複雜就不解決很複雜還是需要解決對嘛我要聽的是這個啦\n對那在這裡面所牽涉到的部分就是我剛剛所說的我們本來在那個109之後呢想要把行政區劃法變成行政區劃的程序法讓它簡單一點我只提遊戲規則那當然委員你自己的版本又加了公民投票那另外一回事但是這個行政區劃的程序法在內部包括有一些這個學者跟專家他們就不同意他說你這樣沒有辦法解決這個問題所以我們變得又比較審慎要來重新評估也就是我們所說的在我們共識\n共識不是法條共識都還沒有形成之前啊單獨送出去一個行政區劃法或行政區劃的程序法不夠完全好譬如說我們如果把這個行政區劃法送出去以後我看財政部一定馬上問說那請問一下這個地方稅怎麼樣做區分那其他的縣市議會有些議會覺得說我這邊割一塊出去了我的議員的這個名額又不見了\n所以又跟地方制度有關我本來是希望說如果程序法比較完全的狀況之下盡量去因為我們現在是台灣是一個民意非常發達的部分盡量以地方制度的縣市議會或者是民意代表的抉擇為主但是呢這個又牽涉到說我不要減少我的利益我希望增加我的部分最後的結論一定是最後只有遊戲規則比較容易走啦\n就是回到當初的曾經提出過的願板但是我們希望有共識才來推啦因為時間不夠了所以你現在打算要多多少時間之內你可以把剛剛張宏錄趙薇講的很好啊你至少要把你們現在研究成果跟困境你把資料提供給委員參考嘛這第一個第二個你們自己內政部會不會召開各縣市的這個協調會議啊或者是一個公聽會包含學者專家來你們會主動來辦嗎\n我們在112年的時候就已經有辦過已經辦過了嘛可是我們希望說如果在立法院裡面有這樣的公聽程序的話可以再邀請地方縣市政府還有地方縣市議會可以來表達他們的意見這樣子我們再收攏這些意見的話可能會更好所以你們112年已經做過座談嘛對不對113年研究案的資料已經回來那就一個禮拜之內提供相關的資料給委員會做參考這是OK的吧\n這個沒有問題對不對我們的委託研究嘛對 委託研究嘛 跟你那些困境你內政部要再補充一些書面報告什麼我覺得都OK你補充一些資料我們來安排公聽會 我認為都很好好 大家縣市政府再次來討論但是希望啊這是賴清德總統當做行政院長很重要的政見\n不要這種跟民生生活有關的法案這種東西又被耽誤掉這本行是不接受的好不好我可以再等你一段時間等你的願板我都覺得是OK的但不能一等再等等到最後又變成屆期不連續那這樣對我的鄉親來講那就是很大的一個衝擊啦所以部長一個禮拜之內提供相關的資料我們來做後續的討論包含公聽會等等然後願板的時間表我們把它研擬出來這樣可以嗎\n提供我們現在的資訊給那個委會各委員參考可以嗎我們看資料之後開公聽會到時候要請部長要配合應該沒有問題吧你們一定會配合嘛對不對也要跟縣市政府先講可能會有這樣一個事情可以嗎\n那開完之後會不會院版會不會比較快一點公聽會的程序如果是委員會開的話是由委員會發函我們可以排啊我在這邊公開的承諾你我可以排啊我們可以用這個這個委員會的時間我們來安排就像之前討論其他修法公聽會一樣這當然可以開好不好那我們希望開了之前大家的資料要充分對不對而且開要有意義啊你不能開完之後然後又不了了之了嘛對不對我是希望今天可以問出院版的時間表啦\n報告委員其實不是說開完之後不聊聊而是開完之後意見會非常的紛亂跟繁雜然後沒有辦法用一個行政區劃或是行政區劃程序法來解決我一直在提醒的是這一點所以賴清德總統當初做院長的時候就因為是這樣所以就不聊聊之了嗎藉其不續審也是一個原因啦到底是藉其不續審還是當初沒有公示啊因為他好像是第...對不起不然哪一年都提出來的對啊\n107年提出來嘛然後109年之後就戒急不續審那到底是戒急不續審還是還是做不到\n你就把話講清楚吧我無法回答你無法回答我現在沒這個資格那你覺得現在他當總統他還會不會想做這個事嗎我想只要能夠讓我們的行政區畫跟所有的生活圈的實質的部分呢充分配合然後讓所有的居民了解一下說行政區畫是在幫助他們做更好的生活的部分的建設尤其是公共建設的話大家都會樂觀其成啦對嘛你這個態度比較好報告委員\n但是沒有共識齁倉促推出反而會是副作用很大我完全了解啊我們在這個地方質詢其實聽了就是個真相到底是因為沒有共識還是因為藉其不去去審因為沒有共識是不是造成他現在做總統之後不推這個事了就把他公開清楚講明白我覺得這樣子也沒有關係但是看起來我們需要多一點討論好那我們就趕快收集資料我們趕快來辦公廳會但我希望回到這法案的初衷可以解決人民生活的問題可以嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝羅許廷\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.438 --> 00:09.866\n好謝謝主席啊劉思峰部長有請\n\n00:12.506 --> 00:40.079\n好謝謝根據我們憲法108條一項二款規定行政區劃的事項應該由中央立法並執行之或交由省縣執行之然而現行行政區域的新設廢址或調整除村里林的編組跟調整或者是縣市合併升格直轄市等事項在地方制度法已有規定之外其他的各種行政區劃的調整基本上是沒有法源依據的那麼歷經時代更迭社會變遷人口流動產業結構\n\n00:42.761 --> 01:06.095\n轉變區域發展等綜合因素形成的空間變遷其實有很多在台灣的各個角落有很多的行政區域其實急待調整去符合生活圈跟產業發展的趨勢去提升地方治理的品質跟效能所以我想推動行政區劃法它是有迫切的需求而且必須要於法治化希望在接下來的討論之中可以有更多委員來繼續支持行政區劃法的討論這個是我就要問一下部長\n\n01:11.621 --> 01:17.095\n這剛剛委員這個張宏祿召委講的很多都是很合理的就希望他有審慎的討論但這個劉部長你知不知道這個行政區他的討論從什麼時候就開始了\n\n01:22.757 --> 01:49.169\n從民國八十一年到現在三十幾年啦有改變過但是改變的不多啦改變的不多嘛對不對碰到的困擾還不少碰到的困擾不少嘛對不對所以歷經了李登輝總統陳水扁總統馬英九總統蔡英文總統等等好幾任分別都有不同的版本但每一次到最後都基本上就是不是卡在行政院沒有共識就是送進立法院之後因為屆期不連續而不了了之\n\n01:49.309 --> 01:57.705\n我們有六次的部分有六次的部分我想部長也很清楚那我覺得這件事情也不是哪一個個別的委員基於選區的例據提出來的而是\n\n02:01.121 --> 02:19.064\n而是我們現在總統當初的台南市長賴清德的心聲當初他在做台南市長的時候當然就談過財化法的問題他在做蔡英文總統手下的行政院長的時候他有講這個財政收支劃分法地方制度法行政區劃法是均衡台灣發展重要的三法\n\n02:19.775 --> 02:44.430\n要來做處理嘛所以也是在我們賴清德總統當初擔任行政院長的時候其實就有提出院版的行政區劃法的草案嘛那時候叫行政區劃程序法嘛那有這樣的一個草案也進到了這個內政委員會的一讀會但是後來就沒有然後了嘛那當然就因為隨著行政院長的換人隨著屆期的不連續這案子又再次的胎死腹中這本行是覺得非常非常可惜啦\n\n02:44.850 --> 02:57.317\n那我想行政區號就如同我剛剛講的就現在啊你除了縣市合併而且不只是合併喔你還能夠升格你可以利用地方制度法之外其他有很多的調整他其實是沒有辦法來做處理的下一張再下一張這看過了\n\n03:01.345 --> 03:25.593\n我就舉我自己選區的例子啊這我龜山的這個回籠地區啊這當初本席那時候在賴清德總統提出院辦草案的時候本席那時候在競選這個第一次競選桃園市議員啊我在我回籠地區我就講這個地方很有趣啊它轄區是我桃園的龜山但是跟新北新莊跟我們新北樹林交界我們回籠地區啊這個電化區嘛我們桃園是03開頭但回籠是02啊然後他們繳電費要到新莊繳水費要到樹林啊\n\n03:30.436 --> 03:33.934\n這就是這邊的生活基本上他的生活圈其實跟新北市的距離是比較近的\n\n03:35.143 --> 04:04.282\n所以也因為這樣他常常被桃園自然而然他就是邊界的治理嘛他可能就變成末梢的地方那麼相對來講他得到的重視跟資源不管是藍綠執政都一樣他常常就是那個被遺忘的山不管地帶所以那時候我看到了中央當初有提行政區劃法的草案我覺得非常的高興啊所以我就在我們回鴻地區跟我們鄉親來講現在中央有打算要面對生活區調整的問題我們應該做好準備大家未來這個你可以把你的心聲大聲的講出來\n\n04:05.403 --> 04:20.573\n後來回籠鄉親也很期待啊也因為這樣給了我很多的支持可是很遺憾的是我當選的議員之後後來發現這個法案並沒有通過那這個鄉親的溯源他一直想要把心情講出來這樣子的一個問題就遇到了重大的困難啊這就是行政區沒有辦法有效的遊戲規則來做討論的一個問題啊\n\n04:24.355 --> 04:37.345\n部長像這樣子的問題你以你們現在行政院的統計你們過去其實也寫過草案像這樣子邊界三不管地帶然後可能有必要要透過行政區畫調整的方式全台灣一共有幾處你們有沒有做過統計可以沒問題\n\n04:42.831 --> 05:03.397\n事實上這個有關區界的一個劃分的部分如果有一些不明的現行大概就可以這個來做處理那是那個是那個是間界的問題土地間界要不一樣我想生活圈的調整歷來有關行政計劃法的討論大概沒有通過原因就是\n\n05:04.915 --> 05:26.754\n各界對於行政規劃大概都有各種不同的一個想像事實上這個各種的討論實際的討論放到法裡面來做處理可能就很難來做執行所以內政部109年送到行政院的版本是行政規劃程序法就提供一個行政規劃的遊戲規則\n\n05:30.700 --> 05:51.541\n我要跟部長再補充啊其實也不只是跨縣市的這樣子的一個區域的一個重整我桃園市裡面啊兩個區之間有那種地界很奇怪的一樣生活圈不一樣的我哪怕是我桃園市裡面區跟區之間裡跟裡之間的調整他也都沒有辦法去處理這個就是現在的問題原因是什麼我沒有法源依據嘛\n\n05:52.242 --> 06:06.549\n譬如說我龜山的山德里其實有一塊它其實離桃園的萬壽里比較近然後那個中間其實是有建築做區隔的但是一個畫區的時候畫畫在山德里面變得跟飛地一樣然後我曾經有跟桃園市議會質詢結果桃園市長說因為我們沒有一套\n\n06:07.469 --> 06:26.123\n即便是我桃園市內部啊各區之間要做行政區的調整也沒有法源依據所以我講這些東西啊也許啊從全國宏觀的角度來看它可能只是一個很小的事情可是這對於在地的居民來講它是一件大事情所以我覺得剛剛我們市長有回答現在不管是成立院版的行政區劃法的行政區劃程序法\n\n06:28.365 --> 06:52.698\n或者是本席這次提出的行政區劃法它其實概念是一樣的也就是需要一個全國可以適用的遊戲規則我很同意剛剛張宏祿召委講的你在做行政區劃的時候它會造成城鄉發展不均的問題啊它會造成地方的一些衝突所以每一個案子它都要經過充分討論這一點本席百分之百贊同但現在的問題不是沒有討論啦現在問題是連開始都不能開始因為你沒有任何的法源依據我現在請問部長\n\n06:54.279 --> 07:10.574\n這個我看了你們的那個書面報告你們有寫113年啊這個最新你們委託出去的研究成果已經回到了行政院那以你們現在看完這些研究成果之後請問你們現在院版因為之前部長有講過嘛行政區法一定會有院版嘛對不對還是說現在不會有院版了部長\n\n07:14.188 --> 07:43.348\n未來要有院版的話我們希望會有一個公聽的程序啦就是剛剛我有回答委員的問題啦第一個就是說我們現在到底要送的是行政區劃法還是行政區劃的程序法那這兩個是完全不同的概念行政區劃的程序法的話就是我們就是像委員所說的很簡單的一句話就是我們把遊戲規則弄出來讓中央跟地方政府有所遵循那但是呢這個部分呢就是要公聽以後包括縣市政府願意同意這樣的方式我們才推出來\n\n07:43.948 --> 08:10.563\n所以推出來這個部分本來就是我們必須要處理的上個會期跟上上個會期其實本期都有在不管是夜報或者是專報的時候都有去提到這個概念那當初大家的回答都一樣就是一定會有院版但是你們要有點時間去整理我說OK你有時間去研究然後讓它推出來完整我是OK的但我想知道你現在經過了研究調查這些程序之後送進來的東西跟你當初啊賴清德總統做行政院院長的時候當初推出來的草案版本現在會不會有差別市長\n\n08:13.996 --> 08:34.686\n基本上行政院針對跟地方制度法的界階的問題還有公投然後它是不是屬於行政處分它這個有關決定機關決定之後的效果等等大概法律上的這些問題還必須做深入的一個討論\n\n08:35.906 --> 08:49.463\n還要討論那你們到底還要討論多久我今天就會幫我這些因為行政區化沒有辦法調整而受苦的民眾在發聲啊那你們到底要討論多久內政部已經把相關的意見在去年送到行政院那這個部分行政院應該會去審來做處理\n\n08:52.365 --> 09:14.992\n我要問時間啊部長有沒有時間表你們要不要稍微加大一下力度說這是很多委員關心的事情目前還沒有那我要講的部分就是說可能請委員把它區分開來如果您剛所提的都是實質上的問題譬如說生活圈或者是居民的方便性那再來再次牽涉到說是屬於比較僵硬的制度就是說新北市政府跟桃園市政府之間那是實際溝通的問題嘛\n\n09:16.693 --> 09:42.838\n就是程序上所以我們希望把程序定出來以後呢朝這方面但是呢我們把行政區劃的程序法送上去的時候似乎有一些不管是委員也好還有學者專家覺得說這樣不行我們要把這個實質的部分要放進去所以就有人提到說那財政收支劃分法是不是要一起納進來那這樣子就越複雜所以到目前為止呢行政區劃法沒有辦法單獨解決剛剛牛委員所提到的包括桃園的龜山我現在講我現在剛剛跟你講你說\n\n09:44.838 --> 10:07.684\n我們其實要的只是一個遊戲規則因為你每一個個案到最後的深水區一定是地方的討論嘛對不對你一定是地方討論包括縣市政府的討論公民的差異等等因為中央也有這種這個稅賦上面的部分要處理啊沒錯但你要遊戲規則嘛就是地方稅你要納到什麼地方啊然後切割出去以後這個稅是留在原地還是要跟著一起我們現在我現在看到的版本其實跟當初的院版大同小異其實概念上也是遊戲規則\n\n10:08.584 --> 10:22.995\n我建議是有遊戲規則就先把它訂出來就好你實際上遇到狀況討論的時候因為到了最後決定的一定是地方地方政府的討論結果嘛跟中央的專家中央也必須要表達意見啊我理解我理解但是所以因為這樣子所以你打算遊戲規則都不做\n\n10:23.715 --> 10:41.640\n報告一下譬如說在委員所關心的包括像龜山或者迴龍的問題但是我們所碰到也有人告訴我們說我們可不可以北北基桃變成是一個大的城市那請問這個是中央的議題還是地方的議題或者是說汐止要不要跟基隆合併之類的那這些議題呢現在大家談這個議題都只能講而已嘛因為你連討論的平台跟遊戲規則跟法院依據都沒有嘛\n\n10:47.282 --> 11:10.319\n所以都變成空談嘛我們現在至少要有一個法源依據它有機會可以執行你才能去思考說我到底要不要做這件事情對不對但是你不能因為說因為這個很複雜所以我連基本規則跟開始都沒有那不就等於是倒閉問題嗎我剛有回答過委員的問題就是說我們是不是可以跟地方政府再來把這相關的議題把它釐清清楚並不是表示說很複雜就不解決很複雜還是需要解決對嘛我要聽的是這個啦\n\n11:11.980 --> 11:34.110\n對那在這裡面所牽涉到的部分就是我剛剛所說的我們本來在那個109之後呢想要把行政區劃法變成行政區劃的程序法讓它簡單一點我只提遊戲規則那當然委員你自己的版本又加了公民投票那另外一回事但是這個行政區劃的程序法在內部包括有一些這個學者跟專家他們就不同意他說你這樣沒有辦法解決這個問題所以我們變得又比較審慎要來重新評估也就是我們所說的在我們共識\n\n11:40.313 --> 11:55.260\n共識不是法條共識都還沒有形成之前啊單獨送出去一個行政區劃法或行政區劃的程序法不夠完全好譬如說我們如果把這個行政區劃法送出去以後我看財政部一定馬上問說那請問一下這個地方稅怎麼樣做區分那其他的縣市議會有些議會覺得說我這邊割一塊出去了我的議員的這個名額又不見了\n\n12:04.884 --> 12:28.019\n所以又跟地方制度有關我本來是希望說如果程序法比較完全的狀況之下盡量去因為我們現在是台灣是一個民意非常發達的部分盡量以地方制度的縣市議會或者是民意代表的抉擇為主但是呢這個又牽涉到說我不要減少我的利益我希望增加我的部分最後的結論一定是最後只有遊戲規則比較容易走啦\n\n12:32.182 --> 12:54.934\n就是回到當初的曾經提出過的願板但是我們希望有共識才來推啦因為時間不夠了所以你現在打算要多多少時間之內你可以把剛剛張宏錄趙薇講的很好啊你至少要把你們現在研究成果跟困境你把資料提供給委員參考嘛這第一個第二個你們自己內政部會不會召開各縣市的這個協調會議啊或者是一個公聽會包含學者專家來你們會主動來辦嗎\n\n12:57.366 --> 13:23.232\n我們在112年的時候就已經有辦過已經辦過了嘛可是我們希望說如果在立法院裡面有這樣的公聽程序的話可以再邀請地方縣市政府還有地方縣市議會可以來表達他們的意見這樣子我們再收攏這些意見的話可能會更好所以你們112年已經做過座談嘛對不對113年研究案的資料已經回來那就一個禮拜之內提供相關的資料給委員會做參考這是OK的吧\n\n13:24.421 --> 13:39.978\n這個沒有問題對不對我們的委託研究嘛對委託研究嘛跟你那些困境你內政部要再補充一些書面報告什麼我覺得都OK你補充一些資料我們來安排公聽會我認為都很好好大家縣市政府再次來討論但是希望啊這是賴清德總統當做行政院長很重要的政見\n\n13:40.939 --> 14:02.132\n不要這種跟民生生活有關的法案這種東西又被耽誤掉這本行是不接受的好不好我可以再等你一段時間等你的願板我都覺得是OK的但不能一等再等等到最後又變成屆期不連續那這樣對我的鄉親來講那就是很大的一個衝擊啦所以部長一個禮拜之內提供相關的資料我們來做後續的討論包含公聽會等等然後願板的時間表我們把它研擬出來這樣可以嗎\n\n14:06.940 --> 14:22.198\n提供我們現在的資訊給那個委會各委員參考可以嗎我們看資料之後開公聽會到時候要請部長要配合應該沒有問題吧你們一定會配合嘛對不對也要跟縣市政府先講可能會有這樣一個事情可以嗎\n\n14:23.578 --> 14:49.974\n那開完之後會不會院版會不會比較快一點公聽會的程序如果是委員會開的話是由委員會發函我們可以排啊我在這邊公開的承諾你我可以排啊我們可以用這個這個委員會的時間我們來安排就像之前討論其他修法公聽會一樣這當然可以開好不好那我們希望開了之前大家的資料要充分對不對而且開要有意義啊你不能開完之後然後又不了了之了嘛對不對我是希望今天可以問出院版的時間表啦\n\n14:50.534 --> 15:16.468\n報告委員其實不是說開完之後不聊聊而是開完之後意見會非常的紛亂跟繁雜然後沒有辦法用一個行政區劃或是行政區劃程序法來解決我一直在提醒的是這一點所以賴清德總統當初做院長的時候就因為是這樣所以就不聊聊之了嗎藉其不續審也是一個原因啦到底是藉其不續審還是當初沒有公示啊因為他好像是第...對不起不然哪一年都提出來的對啊\n\n15:17.588 --> 15:24.253\n107年提出來嘛然後109年之後就戒急不續審那到底是戒急不續審還是還是做不到\n\n15:25.677 --> 15:49.683\n你就把話講清楚吧我無法回答你無法回答我現在沒這個資格那你覺得現在他當總統他還會不會想做這個事嗎我想只要能夠讓我們的行政區畫跟所有的生活圈的實質的部分呢充分配合然後讓所有的居民了解一下說行政區畫是在幫助他們做更好的生活的部分的建設尤其是公共建設的話大家都會樂觀其成啦對嘛你這個態度比較好報告委員\n\n15:51.664 --> 16:17.162\n但是沒有共識齁倉促推出反而會是副作用很大我完全了解啊我們在這個地方質詢其實聽了就是個真相到底是因為沒有共識還是因為藉其不去去審因為沒有共識是不是造成他現在做總統之後不推這個事了就把他公開清楚講明白我覺得這樣子也沒有關係但是看起來我們需要多一點討論好那我們就趕快收集資料我們趕快來辦公廳會但我希望回到這法案的初衷可以解決人民生活的問題可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝羅許廷\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.438,"end":9.866,"text":"好 謝謝主席啊 劉思峰部長有請"},{"start":12.506,"end":40.079,"text":"好 謝謝根據我們憲法108條一項二款規定行政區劃的事項應該由中央立法並執行之或交由省縣執行之然而現行行政區域的新設廢址或調整除村里林的編組跟調整或者是縣市合併升格直轄市等事項在地方制度法已有規定之外其他的各種行政區劃的調整基本上是沒有法源依據的那麼歷經時代更迭社會變遷人口流動產業結構"},{"start":42.761,"end":66.095,"text":"轉變區域發展等綜合因素形成的空間變遷其實有很多在台灣的各個角落有很多的行政區域其實急待調整去符合生活圈跟產業發展的趨勢去提升地方治理的品質跟效能所以我想推動行政區劃法它是有迫切的需求而且必須要於法治化希望在接下來的討論之中可以有更多委員來繼續支持行政區劃法的討論這個是我就要問一下部長"},{"start":71.621,"end":77.095,"text":"這剛剛委員這個張宏祿召委講的很多都是很合理的就希望他有審慎的討論但這個劉部長你知不知道這個行政區他的討論從什麼時候就開始了"},{"start":82.757,"end":109.169,"text":"從民國八十一年到現在三十幾年啦有改變過但是改變的不多啦改變的不多嘛對不對碰到的困擾還不少碰到的困擾不少嘛對不對所以歷經了李登輝總統陳水扁總統馬英九總統蔡英文總統等等好幾任分別都有不同的版本但每一次到最後都基本上就是不是卡在行政院沒有共識就是送進立法院之後因為屆期不連續而不了了之"},{"start":109.309,"end":117.705,"text":"我們有六次的部分有六次的部分我想部長也很清楚那我覺得這件事情也不是哪一個個別的委員基於選區的例據提出來的而是"},{"start":121.121,"end":139.064,"text":"而是我們現在總統當初的台南市長賴清德的心聲當初他在做台南市長的時候當然就談過財化法的問題他在做蔡英文總統手下的行政院長的時候他有講這個財政收支劃分法地方制度法行政區劃法是均衡台灣發展重要的三法"},{"start":139.775,"end":164.43,"text":"要來做處理嘛所以也是在我們賴清德總統當初擔任行政院長的時候其實就有提出院版的行政區劃法的草案嘛那時候叫行政區劃程序法嘛那有這樣的一個草案也進到了這個內政委員會的一讀會但是後來就沒有然後了嘛那當然就因為隨著行政院長的換人隨著屆期的不連續這案子又再次的胎死腹中這本行是覺得非常非常可惜啦"},{"start":164.85,"end":177.317,"text":"那我想行政區號就如同我剛剛講的就現在啊你除了縣市合併而且不只是合併喔你還能夠升格你可以利用地方制度法之外其他有很多的調整他其實是沒有辦法來做處理的下一張再下一張這看過了"},{"start":181.345,"end":205.593,"text":"我就舉我自己選區的例子啊這我龜山的這個回籠地區啊這當初本席那時候在賴清德總統提出院辦草案的時候本席那時候在競選這個第一次競選桃園市議員啊我在我回籠地區我就講這個地方很有趣啊它轄區是我桃園的龜山但是跟新北新莊跟我們新北樹林交界我們回籠地區啊這個電化區嘛我們桃園是03開頭但回籠是02啊然後他們繳電費要到新莊繳水費要到樹林啊"},{"start":210.436,"end":213.934,"text":"這就是這邊的生活 基本上他的生活圈其實跟新北市的距離是比較近的"},{"start":215.143,"end":244.282,"text":"所以也因為這樣他常常被桃園 自然而然他就是邊界的治理嘛他可能就變成末梢的地方那麼相對來講他得到的重視跟資源不管是藍綠執政都一樣他常常就是那個被遺忘的山不管地帶所以那時候我看到了中央當初有提行政區劃法的草案我覺得非常的高興啊所以我就在我們回鴻地區跟我們鄉親來講現在中央有打算要面對生活區調整的問題我們應該做好準備大家未來這個你可以把你的心聲大聲的講出來"},{"start":245.403,"end":260.573,"text":"後來回籠鄉親也很期待啊也因為這樣給了我很多的支持可是很遺憾的是我當選的議員之後後來發現這個法案並沒有通過那這個鄉親的溯源他一直想要把心情講出來這樣子的一個問題就遇到了重大的困難啊這就是行政區沒有辦法有效的遊戲規則來做討論的一個問題啊"},{"start":264.355,"end":277.345,"text":"部長 像這樣子的問題你以你們現在行政院的統計你們過去其實也寫過草案像這樣子邊界三不管地帶然後可能有必要要透過行政區畫調整的方式全台灣一共有幾處 你們有沒有做過統計可以沒問題"},{"start":282.831,"end":303.397,"text":"事實上這個有關區界的一個劃分的部分如果有一些不明的現行大概就可以這個來做處理那是那個是那個是間界的問題土地間界要不一樣我想生活圈的調整歷來有關行政計劃法的討論大概沒有通過原因就是"},{"start":304.915,"end":326.754,"text":"各界對於行政規劃大概都有各種不同的一個想像事實上這個各種的討論實際的討論放到法裡面來做處理可能就很難來做執行所以內政部109年送到行政院的版本是行政規劃程序法就提供一個行政規劃的遊戲規則"},{"start":330.7,"end":351.541,"text":"我要跟部長再補充啊 其實也不只是跨縣市的這樣子的一個區域的一個重整我桃園市裡面啊 兩個區之間 有那種地界很奇怪的 一樣生活圈不一樣的我哪怕是我桃園市裡面 區跟區之間 裡跟裡之間的調整他也都沒有辦法去處理 這個就是現在的問題 原因是什麼 我沒有法源依據嘛"},{"start":352.242,"end":366.549,"text":"譬如說我龜山的山德里其實有一塊它其實離桃園的萬壽里比較近然後那個中間其實是有建築做區隔的但是一個畫區的時候畫畫在山德里面變得跟飛地一樣然後我曾經有跟桃園市議會質詢結果桃園市長說因為我們沒有一套"},{"start":367.469,"end":386.123,"text":"即便是我桃園市內部啊各區之間要做行政區的調整也沒有法源依據所以我講這些東西啊也許啊從全國宏觀的角度來看它可能只是一個很小的事情可是這對於在地的居民來講它是一件大事情所以我覺得剛剛我們市長有回答現在不管是成立院版的行政區劃法的行政區劃程序法"},{"start":388.365,"end":412.698,"text":"或者是本席這次提出的行政區劃法它其實概念是一樣的也就是需要一個全國可以適用的遊戲規則我很同意剛剛張宏祿召委講的你在做行政區劃的時候它會造成城鄉發展不均的問題啊它會造成地方的一些衝突所以每一個案子它都要經過充分討論這一點本席百分之百贊同但現在的問題不是沒有討論啦現在問題是連開始都不能開始因為你沒有任何的法源依據我現在請問部長"},{"start":414.279,"end":430.574,"text":"這個我看了你們的那個書面報告你們有寫113年啊這個最新你們委託出去的研究成果已經回到了行政院那以你們現在看完這些研究成果之後請問你們現在院版因為之前部長有講過嘛行政區法一定會有院版嘛對不對還是說現在不會有院版了部長"},{"start":434.188,"end":463.348,"text":"未來要有院版的話我們希望會有一個公聽的程序啦就是剛剛我有回答委員的問題啦第一個就是說我們現在到底要送的是行政區劃法還是行政區劃的程序法那這兩個是完全不同的概念行政區劃的程序法的話就是我們就是像委員所說的很簡單的一句話就是我們把遊戲規則弄出來讓中央跟地方政府有所遵循那但是呢這個部分呢就是要公聽以後包括縣市政府願意同意這樣的方式我們才推出來"},{"start":463.948,"end":490.563,"text":"所以推出來這個部分本來就是我們必須要處理的上個會期跟上上個會期其實本期都有在不管是夜報或者是專報的時候都有去提到這個概念那當初大家的回答都一樣就是一定會有院版但是你們要有點時間去整理我說OK你有時間去研究然後讓它推出來完整我是OK的但我想知道你現在經過了研究調查這些程序之後送進來的東西跟你當初啊賴清德總統做行政院院長的時候當初推出來的草案版本現在會不會有差別市長"},{"start":493.996,"end":514.686,"text":"基本上行政院針對跟地方制度法的界階的問題還有公投然後它是不是屬於行政處分它這個有關決定機關決定之後的效果等等大概法律上的這些問題還必須做深入的一個討論"},{"start":515.906,"end":529.463,"text":"還要討論 那你們到底還要討論多久我今天就會幫我這些因為行政區化沒有辦法調整而受苦的民眾在發聲啊那你們到底要討論多久內政部已經把相關的意見在去年送到行政院那這個部分行政院應該會去審來做處理"},{"start":532.365,"end":554.992,"text":"我要問時間啊部長有沒有時間表你們要不要稍微加大一下力度說這是很多委員關心的事情目前還沒有那我要講的部分就是說可能請委員把它區分開來如果您剛所提的都是實質上的問題譬如說生活圈或者是居民的方便性那再來再次牽涉到說是屬於比較僵硬的制度就是說新北市政府跟桃園市政府之間那是實際溝通的問題嘛"},{"start":556.693,"end":582.838,"text":"就是程序上所以我們希望把程序定出來以後呢朝這方面但是呢我們把行政區劃的程序法送上去的時候似乎有一些不管是委員也好還有學者專家覺得說這樣不行我們要把這個實質的部分要放進去所以就有人提到說那財政收支劃分法是不是要一起納進來那這樣子就越複雜所以到目前為止呢行政區劃法沒有辦法單獨解決剛剛牛委員所提到的包括桃園的龜山我現在講我現在剛剛跟你講你說"},{"start":584.838,"end":607.684,"text":"我們其實要的只是一個遊戲規則因為你每一個個案到最後的深水區一定是地方的討論嘛對不對你一定是地方討論包括縣市政府的討論公民的差異等等因為中央也有這種這個稅賦上面的部分要處理啊沒錯但你要遊戲規則嘛就是地方稅你要納到什麼地方啊然後切割出去以後這個稅是留在原地還是要跟著一起我們現在我現在看到的版本其實跟當初的院版大同小異其實概念上也是遊戲規則"},{"start":608.584,"end":622.995,"text":"我建議是有遊戲規則就先把它訂出來就好你實際上遇到狀況討論的時候因為到了最後決定的一定是地方地方政府的討論結果嘛跟中央的專家 中央也必須要表達意見啊我理解我理解但是所以因為這樣子所以你打算遊戲規則都不做"},{"start":623.715,"end":641.64,"text":"報告一下譬如說在委員所關心的包括像龜山或者迴龍的問題但是我們所碰到也有人告訴我們說我們可不可以北北基桃變成是一個大的城市那請問這個是中央的議題還是地方的議題或者是說汐止要不要跟基隆合併之類的那這些議題呢現在大家談這個議題都只能講而已嘛因為你連討論的平台跟遊戲規則跟法院依據都沒有嘛"},{"start":647.282,"end":670.319,"text":"所以都變成空談嘛我們現在至少要有一個法源依據它有機會可以執行你才能去思考說我到底要不要做這件事情對不對但是你不能因為說因為這個很複雜所以我連基本規則跟開始都沒有那不就等於是倒閉問題嗎我剛有回答過委員的問題就是說我們是不是可以跟地方政府再來把這相關的議題把它釐清清楚並不是表示說很複雜就不解決很複雜還是需要解決對嘛我要聽的是這個啦"},{"start":671.98,"end":694.11,"text":"對那在這裡面所牽涉到的部分就是我剛剛所說的我們本來在那個109之後呢想要把行政區劃法變成行政區劃的程序法讓它簡單一點我只提遊戲規則那當然委員你自己的版本又加了公民投票那另外一回事但是這個行政區劃的程序法在內部包括有一些這個學者跟專家他們就不同意他說你這樣沒有辦法解決這個問題所以我們變得又比較審慎要來重新評估也就是我們所說的在我們共識"},{"start":700.313,"end":715.26,"text":"共識不是法條共識都還沒有形成之前啊單獨送出去一個行政區劃法或行政區劃的程序法不夠完全好譬如說我們如果把這個行政區劃法送出去以後我看財政部一定馬上問說那請問一下這個地方稅怎麼樣做區分那其他的縣市議會有些議會覺得說我這邊割一塊出去了我的議員的這個名額又不見了"},{"start":724.884,"end":748.019,"text":"所以又跟地方制度有關我本來是希望說如果程序法比較完全的狀況之下盡量去因為我們現在是台灣是一個民意非常發達的部分盡量以地方制度的縣市議會或者是民意代表的抉擇為主但是呢這個又牽涉到說我不要減少我的利益我希望增加我的部分最後的結論一定是最後只有遊戲規則比較容易走啦"},{"start":752.182,"end":774.934,"text":"就是回到當初的曾經提出過的願板但是我們希望有共識才來推啦因為時間不夠了所以你現在打算要多多少時間之內你可以把剛剛張宏錄趙薇講的很好啊你至少要把你們現在研究成果跟困境你把資料提供給委員參考嘛這第一個第二個你們自己內政部會不會召開各縣市的這個協調會議啊或者是一個公聽會包含學者專家來你們會主動來辦嗎"},{"start":777.366,"end":803.232,"text":"我們在112年的時候就已經有辦過已經辦過了嘛可是我們希望說如果在立法院裡面有這樣的公聽程序的話可以再邀請地方縣市政府還有地方縣市議會可以來表達他們的意見這樣子我們再收攏這些意見的話可能會更好所以你們112年已經做過座談嘛對不對113年研究案的資料已經回來那就一個禮拜之內提供相關的資料給委員會做參考這是OK的吧"},{"start":804.421,"end":819.978,"text":"這個沒有問題對不對我們的委託研究嘛對 委託研究嘛 跟你那些困境你內政部要再補充一些書面報告什麼我覺得都OK你補充一些資料我們來安排公聽會 我認為都很好好 大家縣市政府再次來討論但是希望啊這是賴清德總統當做行政院長很重要的政見"},{"start":820.939,"end":842.132,"text":"不要這種跟民生生活有關的法案這種東西又被耽誤掉這本行是不接受的好不好我可以再等你一段時間等你的願板我都覺得是OK的但不能一等再等等到最後又變成屆期不連續那這樣對我的鄉親來講那就是很大的一個衝擊啦所以部長一個禮拜之內提供相關的資料我們來做後續的討論包含公聽會等等然後願板的時間表我們把它研擬出來這樣可以嗎"},{"start":846.94,"end":862.198,"text":"提供我們現在的資訊給那個委會各委員參考可以嗎我們看資料之後開公聽會到時候要請部長要配合應該沒有問題吧你們一定會配合嘛對不對也要跟縣市政府先講可能會有這樣一個事情可以嗎"},{"start":863.578,"end":889.974,"text":"那開完之後會不會院版會不會比較快一點公聽會的程序如果是委員會開的話是由委員會發函我們可以排啊我在這邊公開的承諾你我可以排啊我們可以用這個這個委員會的時間我們來安排就像之前討論其他修法公聽會一樣這當然可以開好不好那我們希望開了之前大家的資料要充分對不對而且開要有意義啊你不能開完之後然後又不了了之了嘛對不對我是希望今天可以問出院版的時間表啦"},{"start":890.534,"end":916.468,"text":"報告委員其實不是說開完之後不聊聊而是開完之後意見會非常的紛亂跟繁雜然後沒有辦法用一個行政區劃或是行政區劃程序法來解決我一直在提醒的是這一點所以賴清德總統當初做院長的時候就因為是這樣所以就不聊聊之了嗎藉其不續審也是一個原因啦到底是藉其不續審還是當初沒有公示啊因為他好像是第...對不起不然哪一年都提出來的對啊"},{"start":917.588,"end":924.253,"text":"107年提出來嘛然後109年之後就戒急不續審那到底是戒急不續審還是還是做不到"},{"start":925.677,"end":949.683,"text":"你就把話講清楚吧我無法回答你無法回答我現在沒這個資格那你覺得現在他當總統他還會不會想做這個事嗎我想只要能夠讓我們的行政區畫跟所有的生活圈的實質的部分呢充分配合然後讓所有的居民了解一下說行政區畫是在幫助他們做更好的生活的部分的建設尤其是公共建設的話大家都會樂觀其成啦對嘛你這個態度比較好報告委員"},{"start":951.664,"end":977.162,"text":"但是沒有共識齁倉促推出反而會是副作用很大我完全了解啊我們在這個地方質詢其實聽了就是個真相到底是因為沒有共識還是因為藉其不去去審因為沒有共識是不是造成他現在做總統之後不推這個事了就把他公開清楚講明白我覺得這樣子也沒有關係但是看起來我們需要多一點討論好那我們就趕快收集資料我們趕快來辦公廳會但我希望回到這法案的初衷可以解決人民生活的問題可以嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝羅許廷"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":280,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（9時23分）謝謝主席，劉世芳部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：根據憲法第一百零八條第一項第二款規定，行政區劃的事項應該由中央立法並執行之，或交由省縣執行之。然而現行行政區域的新設、廢止或調整，除村（里）、鄰的編組跟調整，或者是縣（市）合併升格直轄市等事項在地方制度法已有規定外，其他各種行政區劃的調整，基本上是沒有法源依據的。那麼歷經時代更迭、社會變遷、人口流動、產業結構轉變、區域發展等綜合因素形成的空間變遷其實有很多，在臺灣的各個角落有很多的行政區域其實亟待調整，去符合生活圈跟產業發展的趨勢，去提升地方治理的品質跟效能，所以我想推動行政區劃法是有迫切需求的，而且必須要予以法制化。希望在接下來的討論中，可以有更多的委員繼續支持行政區劃法的討論。","這個我就要問一下部長了，剛剛張宏陸召委講到的，很多都是很合理的，就是希望要審慎地討論，但劉部長你知不知道行政區劃的討論從什麼時候就開始了？"],["劉部長世芳：從民國81年到現在。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，從民國81年到現在，三十幾年了。"],["劉部長世芳：有改變過，但是改變的不多。"],["牛委員煦庭：改變的不多，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：表示碰到的困擾還不少。"],["牛委員煦庭：碰到的困擾不少，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以歷經了李登輝總統、陳水扁總統、馬英九總統、蔡英文總統等等，好幾任，分別都有不同的版本，但每一次到了最後，基本上不是卡在行政院沒有共識，就是送進立法院之後因為屆期不連續而不了了之。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們六次都沒辦法處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：有六次的部分嘛，我想部長也很清楚。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：我覺得這件事情也不是哪一個個別的委員基於選區利益提出來的，而是我們現在的總統，當初的臺南市長賴清德的心聲，當初他在做臺南市長的時候就有談過財劃法的問題，他在做蔡英文總統手下的行政院長的時候，也有講財政收支劃分法、地方制度法、行政區劃法是均衡臺灣發展重要的三法，要來做處理。所以在賴清德總統當初擔任行政院長的時候，其實就有提出院版的行政區劃法草案，那時候叫行政區劃程序法，這樣的一個草案也進到了內政委員會一讀會，但是後來就沒有然後了，因為隨著行政院長換人，隨著屆期不連續，這個案子又再次地胎死腹中，本席是覺得非常非常可惜啦！我想行政區劃就如同我剛剛講的，現在除了縣市合併，而且不只是合併，還要能夠升格，可以利用地方制度法之外，其他有很多的調整其實是沒有辦法做處理的。","我就舉我自己選區的例子──龜山的迴龍地區，當初賴清德總統提出院版草案的時候，本席那時候第一次競選桃園市議員，我在迴龍地區就講了，這個地方很有趣，轄區是桃園的龜山，但是跟新北新莊跟新北樹林交界，電話區碼桃園是03開頭，但是迴龍是02，他們繳電費要到新莊，繳水費要到樹林，這就是那邊的生活。基本上它的生活圈其實跟新北市的距離是比較近的，也因為這樣，它常常被桃園認為……它自然而然就是當邊界來治理，它可能就變成末梢的地方，相對來講，它得到的重視跟資源，不管是藍、綠執政都一樣，它常常就是那個被遺忘的三不管地帶。所以那時候我看到了中央有提行政區劃法的草案，我覺得非常的高興，就跟我們迴龍地區的鄉親講：現在中央有打算要面對生活區調整的問題，我們應該做好準備，大家未來可以把你的心聲大聲地講出來。迴龍的鄉親也很期待，也因為這樣給了我很多的支持，可是很遺憾的是，我當選議員之後，我發現這個法案並沒有通過，這個是鄉親的宿願，他們一直想要把心情講出來，這樣的一個問題就遇到了重大的困難，這就是行政區沒有辦法有有效的遊戲規則來做討論的問題。部長，像這樣子的問題，以你們現在行政院的統計，你們過去其實也寫過草案，像這樣邊界、三不管地帶，可能有必要透過行政區劃調整的方式，全臺灣一共有幾處，你們有沒有做過統計？"],["劉部長世芳：請司長來說明一下。"],["牛委員煦庭：可以，沒問題。"],["鄭司長英弘：事實上，有關區界劃分的部分，如果有一些不明的，現行大概就可以來做處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：那個只是鑑界的問題，土地鑑界不一樣，我講的是生活圈的調整而已。"],["鄭司長英弘：歷來有關行政區劃法的討論，沒有通過的原因大概就是各界對於行政區劃都有各種不同的想像。事實上，各種的討論、實際的討論放到法裡面來做處理，可能就很難來執行，所以內政部109年送到行政院的版本是行政區劃程序法，就提供一個……"],["牛委員煦庭：遊戲規則，對不對？"],["鄭司長英弘：是的，行政區劃的遊戲規則。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我要跟部長再補充，其實也不只是跨縣市的區域重整，桃園市裡面兩個區之間有那種地界很奇怪的，一樣的生活圈或不一樣的，哪怕是桃園市裡面區跟區之間、里跟里之間的調整，也都沒有辦法去處理，這個就是現在的問題，原因是什麼？沒有法源依據，比如說龜山的山德里有一塊其實離桃園的萬壽里比較近，然後那個中間其實是有建築做區隔的，但是因為劃區的時候劃在山德里，就變得跟飛地一樣。我曾經有在桃園市議會質詢，結果桃園市政府講因為我們沒有一套法源依據，所以即便是桃園市內部各區之間要做行政區的調整，也沒有法源依據。我講這些東西，也許從全國宏觀的角度來看，可能只是一個很小的事情，可是這對於在地的居民來講是一件大事情。所以剛剛司長有回答，現在不管是行政院版的行政區劃程序法，或者是本席這次提出的行政區劃法，其實概念是一樣的，也就是需要一個全國可以適用的遊戲規則。我很同意剛剛張宏陸召委講的，在做行政區劃的時候會不會造成城鄉發展不均的問題？會不會造成地方的衝突？所以每一個案子都要經過充分討論，這一點本席百分之百贊同，但現在的問題不是沒有討論，而是連開始都不能開始，因為你沒有任何的法源依據。","我請問部長，我看了你們的書面報告裡面有寫，113年你們最新委託出去的研究成果已經回到了行政院，以你們現在看完這些研究成果之後，請問你們院版……因為之前部長有講過行政區劃法一定會有院版，對不對？還是說現在不會有院版了？部長。"],["劉部長世芳：未來要有院版的話，我們希望有一個公聽的程序啦，剛剛我有回答委員的問題，第一個，我們現在到底要送的是行政區劃法，還是行政區劃的程序法，這兩個是完全不同的概念。行政區劃程序法的話，就是像委員所說的，很簡單的一句話，我們把遊戲規則弄出來……"],["牛委員煦庭：是的。"],["劉部長世芳：讓中央跟地方政府有所遵循。但是，這個部分就是要公聽以後，包括縣市政府願意、同意用這樣的方式，我們才推出來，所以推出來這個部分本來就是我們必須要處理的。"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講，上個會期跟上上會期，其實本席都有在不管業報或者是專報的時候去提到這個概念，當初大家的回答都一樣，就是一定會有院版，但是你們需要點時間去整理。我說OK，你有時間去研究，然後讓它推出來完整，我是OK的，但我想知道，你現在經過了研究調查這些程序之後，送進來的東西，跟當初賴清德總統做行政院院長的時候推出來的草案版本，會不會有差別？"],["鄭司長英弘：基本上，行政院針對跟地方制度法介接的問題還有公投，然後它是不是屬於行政處分，有關機關決定之後的效果等等，法律上的這些問題大概還必須做深入的討論。"],["牛委員煦庭：還要討論？你們到底還要討論多久？我今天就是幫這些因為行政區劃沒有辦法調整而受苦的民眾在發聲啊！你們到底要討論多久？"],["鄭司長英弘：內政部已經在去年把相關的意見送到行政院，這個部分行政院應該會續審處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：續審，但我要問時間啊！部長，有沒有時間表？你們要不要稍微加大一下力度，這是很多委員關心的事情。"],["劉部長世芳：是，目前還沒有，我要講的可能就是要請委員把它區分開來，如果您剛所提的都是實質上的問題，譬如說生活圈……"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊！"],["劉部長世芳：或者是居民的方便性，再來是牽涉到屬於比較僵硬的制度，就是新北市政府跟桃園市政府之間……"],["牛委員煦庭：那是實際溝通的問題嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：對，就是程序上，所以我們希望把程序訂出來以後朝這方面，但是我們把行政區劃的程序法送上去的時候，似乎有一些不管是委員也好，還有學者專家覺得這樣不行，我們要把實質的部分放進去，所以就有人提到財政收支劃分法是不是要一起納進來，這樣子就越複雜。所以到目前為止，行政區劃法沒有辦法單獨解決剛剛牛委員所提到的，包括桃園龜山和新北的問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講，我們要的其實只是一個遊戲規則，因為你每一個個案到了最後的深水區一定是地方的討論，對不對？你一定是地方的討論，包含縣市政府的討論、公民的參與等等……"],["劉部長世芳：中央也要討論啊！因為中央也有稅賦上面的部分要處理啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯，但你要有遊戲規則嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：譬如說地方稅要納到什麼地方？然後切割出去以後，這個稅是留在原地還是要跟著一起……"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在看到的版本其實跟當初的院版大同小異，概念上也是遊戲規則，我建議有遊戲規則就先把它訂出來就好，等實際上遇到狀況討論的時候，因為到了最後，決定的一定是中央的專家學者與地方政府的討論結果……"],["劉部長世芳：中央也必須要表達意見啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：我理解，我理解，因為這樣子，所以你打算連遊戲規則都不做嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我跟委員報告，譬如委員所關心的包括像龜山或者迴龍的問題，但是我們所碰到也有人告訴我們，我們可不可以北北基桃變成是一個大的城市？那請問這個是中央的議題，還是地方的議題？或者是汐止要不要跟基隆合併之類的……"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊！"],["劉部長世芳：這些議題我們就造成很多三不管地帶……"],["牛委員煦庭：現在大家談這個議題都只能講而已，因為你連討論的平臺、遊戲規則跟法源依據都沒有，所以都變成空談嘛！我們現在至少要有一個法源依據，讓它有機會可以執行，你才能去思考到底要不要做這件事情，對不對？但是你不能因為這個很複雜，所以我連基本規則跟開始都沒有，那不就等於是逃避問題嗎？對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：不是，我剛剛有回答過委員的問題，就是我們是不是可以跟地方政府再來把這些相關的議題釐清楚，並不是表示很複雜就不解決，很複雜還是需要解決……"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！我要聽的是這個啦！"],["劉部長世芳：對，這裡面所牽涉到的部分，就是我剛剛所說的，我們本來在109年之後想要把行政區劃法變成行政區劃的程序法，就是讓它簡單一點，我只提遊戲規則，當然，委員你自己的版本又加了公民投票，那另外一回事……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，那另外一回事，我們今天時間不夠……"],["劉部長世芳：但是這個行政區劃的程序法，在內部包括一些學者跟專家，他們就不同意，說這樣沒有辦法解決這個問題，所以我們變得又比較審慎，要來重新評估。也就是我們所說的，在我們共識……是共識、不是法條，共識都還沒有形成之前，單獨送出去一個行政區劃法或行政區劃的程序法，不夠完全。譬如說，我們如果把行政區劃法送出去以後，我看財政部一定馬上說：請問地方稅怎麼樣做區分？其他的縣市議會，有些議會覺得我這邊割一塊出去了，我議員的名額又不見了……"],["牛委員煦庭：席次，對。"],["劉部長世芳：所以又跟地方制度有關。我本來是希望如果程序法比較完全的狀況之下，儘量去……因為我們現在臺灣民意非常發達，儘量以地方制度的縣市議會或者是民意代表的抉擇為主，但是這個又牽涉到我不要減少我的利益，我希望增加我的部分，這個就是我們更大的問題……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以最後的結論一定是只有遊戲規則比較容易走，就是回到當初曾經提出過的院版嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是，但是我們希望有共識才來推啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：好，部長，因為時間不夠了，所以你現在打算要在多少時間之內，可以把……剛剛張宏陸召委講得很好，你至少要把你們現在研究成果跟困境的資料提供給委員參考，這是第一個。第二個，內政部自己會不會召開各縣市的協調會議或者是一個公聽會，包含學者專家都來參與，你們會主動來辦嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們在112年的時候就已經有辦過，但是……"],["牛委員煦庭：已經辦過了嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：可是我們希望如果在立法院裡面也有這樣的公聽程序的話，可以再邀請……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你希望立法院辦？我覺得可以啊，你把想法丟出來都是好事啊！"],["劉部長世芳：再邀請地方縣市政府還有地方縣市議會，可以來表達他們的意見。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，部長，既然……"],["劉部長世芳：我們再收攏這些意見的話，可能會更好。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你們112年已經做過座談，對不對？113年研究案的資料已經回來，那就一個禮拜之內提供相關的資料給委員會做參考，這是OK的嘛？這個沒有問題，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：我們的委託研究嘛？"],["牛委員煦庭：對，委託研究跟你的一些困境，內政部要再補充一些書面報告什麼我覺得都OK，你補充一些資料，我們來安排公聽會，我認為都很好，大家縣市政府再次來討論。但是我希望，這是賴清德總統當初做行政院院長很重要的政見啦，不要像這種跟民生生活有關的法案、這種東西又被耽誤掉，本席是不接受的，好不好？我可以再等你一段時間，等你的院版，我都覺得是OK的，但不能一等再等，等到最後又變成屆期不連續，這樣對我的鄉親來講就是很大的一個衝擊啦！所以部長，一個禮拜之內提供相關的資料，我們來做後續的討論，包含公聽會等等，然後院版的時間表，我們把它研擬出來，這樣可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們提供我們現在的資訊給委員會各委員參考，可以嗎？"],["牛委員煦庭：我們看了資料之後召開公聽會，到時候要請部長配合，應該沒有問題吧？"],["劉部長世芳：公聽會我們當然……"],["牛委員煦庭：你們一定會配合嘛，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：官員都一定要配合。"],["牛委員煦庭：也要跟縣市政府先講好，可能會有這樣一個事情，可以嗎？開完之後，院版會不會比較快一點？"],["劉部長世芳：公聽會的程序如果是委員會開的話，是由委員會發函邀請他們……"],["牛委員煦庭：我們可以排啊，我在這邊公開的承諾你，我可以排啊！我們可以用委員會的時間來安排，就像之前討論其他修法公聽會一樣，這當然可以開，好不好？但我們希望開會之前大家的資料要充分，而且開要有意義，你不能開完之後又不了了之了，對不對？我是希望今天可以問出院版的時間表啦！"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，其實不是說開完之後不了了之，而是開完之後意見會非常的紛亂跟繁雜，沒有辦法用一個行政區劃或是行政區劃程序法來解決，我一直在提醒的是這一點。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以賴清德總統當初做院長的時候，是因為這樣所以就不了了之了嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：屆期不續審也是一個原因啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：到底是屆期不續審，還是當初沒有共識啊？"],["劉部長世芳：都有，因為他好像是……對不起，我不知道他哪一年提出來的……"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊，107年提出來嘛，109年之後就屆期不續審，到底是屆期不續審還是做不到？你就把話講清楚吧！"],["劉部長世芳：我無法回答以前的問題……"],["牛委員煦庭：你無法回答？"],["劉部長世芳：因為我現在沒那個資料。"],["牛委員煦庭：你覺得他現在當總統之後，他還會不會想做這個事？"],["劉部長世芳：我想只要能夠讓我們的行政區劃跟所有的生活圈實質的部分充分配合，然後讓所有的居民了解行政區劃是在幫助他們做更好生活的建設，尤其是公共建設的話，大家都會樂觀其成啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！你這個態度比較好嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，但是沒有共識就倉促推出反而是副作用很大……"],["牛委員煦庭：我完全了解啊！"],["劉部長世芳：我還是一再的強調這一點。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們在這個地方質詢其實想聽的就是真相，到底是因為沒有共識，還是因為屆期不續審？因為沒有共識，是不是造成他現在做總統之後不推這個事了，你就公開把它清楚講明白，我覺得這樣子也沒有關係，但是看起來我們需要多一點討論，好，那我們就趕快蒐集資料、趕快來辦公聽會，但我希望回到這個法案的初衷，可以解決人民生活的問題，可以嗎？好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭召委，謝謝劉部長。","下一位有請王美惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-12","speakers":["牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","高金素梅","廖先翔","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃建賓","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「行政區劃法草案」案；二、審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「行政\n區劃法草案」案【僅詢答及宣讀提案條文】","agenda_id":"1144001_00001"}}}