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00:01:24,207\n他影響台灣的法治影響檢察官判決或者是影響檢察官做相關調查的新政還要施壓恐嚇檢察官那所以呢當天中國國民黨號召包圍台北地檢署\n\n4\n00:01:26,020 --> 00:01:53,631\n警政署舉牌七次裡面包含蔣萬安市長在7點24分的時候在北檢外面受訪7點29分進入禁制區內7點40分發言7點54分離開中間警政署很有技巧在蔣萬安進到禁制區以後沒有舉牌過等到蔣萬安出了\n\n5\n00:01:55,521 --> 00:02:23,938\n這個禁制區之後才第二次舉牌部長首都市長進入台北地檢署禁制區內企圖影響司法當然內政部有內政部處理的方式我在這邊要講的是全台灣都在看台灣的法治倒退而且由台北市長帶頭啦在蔣萬安身上永遠留下一筆破壞台灣不是民主喔\n\n6\n00:02:24,713 --> 00:02:32,208\n是法治的觀念跟30年前幫派去圍警察局有什麼不一樣不是你有沒有辦法做一個回應\n\n7\n00:02:37,709 --> 00:03:00,081\n第一個我們的集會遊行法希望能夠去政治化任何人如果你要挑戰集會遊行法裡面尤其是法律所訂定的部分的話站在主管機關的立場我有要求就是要嚴正執行那所以呢我也覺得我們的警員非常的警察非常的辛苦尤其是這一次呢以台北市警局當然我們還有若干的這個保安警察\n\n8\n00:03:01,001 --> 00:03:24,788\n在兩天的時間內幾乎24小時在旁邊待命所以我剛有講過台北市警局這個是警政署執法的當然辛苦還有技巧但是我們要跟國人說明的還是很重點的一個為什麼北檢外面不是可以拘禁的地方為什麼是禁制區因為這些人想要影響檢察官的調查\n\n9\n00:03:27,898 --> 00:03:52,411\n就跟法院要判決前你到司法院去辦什麼活動都是一樣的都是企圖要影響這直接影響了台灣最有價值的民主第二個法治我們這是一個法治國家謝謝謝謝部長接下來我想針對今天的這個內容剛才主席也有講到包含這個賴清德總統擔任院長的時候其實提出來的\n\n10\n00:03:55,051 --> 00:04:10,290\n行政區劃法其實要完整的講賴院長那時候的想法應該是把公債法行政區劃法還有財政收支劃分法一起來談因為這個行政區劃法其實剛剛部長也講到很重要的一點\n\n11\n00:04:10,991 --> 00:04:38,971\n希望如果有行政區劃法之後這個行政區劃會是完整的而不是今天某個鄉鎮他希望他可以劃入另外一個直轄市那所以由鄉鎮來公投我覺得這個問題會是更麻煩更複雜那尤其我覺得以北北、基桃會比較多這些相關的事務包含很多新北市的離台北市就一線之隔\n\n12\n00:04:39,671 --> 00:05:00,925\n那他們也要主張如果有台北市的門牌的話這個房價暴增一坪馬上暴增所以這個議題其實需要內政部還有行政院一樣要做出比較完整的一些討論尤其是跟地方的討論千萬千萬我們一定不能像財化法一樣\n\n13\n00:05:01,926 --> 00:05:26,710\n一劃下去整個行政區劃都亂掉我覺得這個是我們內政委員會接下來必須要很嚴肅很嚴正的來討論這些問題包含它是程序法或者是接下來的相關的公聽會以及跟地方政府的相關的這些討論希望內政部都可以跟地方政府來做一些比較完整的討論那我也看到\n\n14\n00:05:28,231 --> 00:05:43,642\n從2018年這個行政院提出這個院版之後呢到2023年內政部也有對是不是納入公投有做一些相關的研究的報告我想這些都是我們必須要很嚴肅的來討論跟參考的來請這個市長來做一個回應2023年後來這個公投的演繹\n\n15\n00:05:53,578 --> 00:06:11,965\n用委託研究基本上對於公投參考各國的經驗並不是必要的程序有些國家反而公投會牽涉到多大的區域要公投公投反而會變成行政區塊的一個阻礙也有一種情況\n\n16\n00:06:13,225 --> 00:06:24,855\n所以都是要很嚴肅的來討論當然今天召委的意思是說你要讓這個區的人充分發聲他沒有要保證說就要讓你劃進去新北市啦謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5874\t30830\t謝謝部長今天只能問你延續剛剛王美惠委員的話題我想跟部長請教很簡單的問題台灣現在是民主我覺得不只民主最重要的是法治的社會這個法治的社會如果有遇到過去我當然小時候曾經看過有幫派去包圍警察局的時候警察怎麼處理部長\n35280\t60422\t我不曉得委員小時候是指民國紀諜的事情應該就是我小學的時候吧,三十年前啊如果是現在的話,大概不會有這樣的狀況馬上就是,因為他不能到那個警察機關前面去這樣子...幫派包圍警察局,就是質疑警察的執法能力,質疑公權力現在有另外一件事情,政黨率人去包圍地檢署,這是要做什麼?\n61530\t84207\t他影響台灣的法治影響檢察官判決或者是影響檢察官做相關調查的新政還要施壓恐嚇檢察官那所以呢當天中國國民黨號召包圍台北地檢署\n86020\t113631\t警政署舉牌七次裡面包含蔣萬安市長在7點24分的時候在北檢外面受訪7點29分進入禁制區內7點40分發言7點54分離開中間警政署很有技巧在蔣萬安進到禁制區以後沒有舉牌過等到蔣萬安出了\n115521\t143938\t這個禁制區之後才第二次舉牌部長首都市長進入台北地檢署禁制區內企圖影響司法當然內政部有內政部處理的方式我在這邊要講的是全台灣都在看台灣的法治倒退而且由台北市長帶頭啦在蔣萬安身上永遠留下一筆破壞台灣不是民主喔\n144713\t152208\t是法治的觀念跟30年前幫派去圍警察局有什麼不一樣不是你有沒有辦法做一個回應\n157709\t180081\t第一個我們的集會遊行法希望能夠去政治化任何人如果你要挑戰集會遊行法裡面尤其是法律所訂定的部分的話站在主管機關的立場我有要求就是要嚴正執行那所以呢我也覺得我們的警員非常的警察非常的辛苦尤其是這一次呢以台北市警局當然我們還有若干的這個保安警察\n181001\t204788\t在兩天的時間內幾乎24小時在旁邊待命所以我剛有講過台北市警局這個是警政署執法的當然辛苦還有技巧但是我們要跟國人說明的還是很重點的一個為什麼北檢外面不是可以拘禁的地方為什麼是禁制區因為這些人想要影響檢察官的調查\n207898\t232411\t就跟法院要判決前你到司法院去辦什麼活動都是一樣的都是企圖要影響這直接影響了台灣最有價值的民主第二個法治我們這是一個法治國家謝謝 謝謝部長接下來我想針對今天的這個內容剛才主席也有講到包含這個賴清德總統擔任院長的時候其實提出來的\n235051\t250290\t行政區劃法其實要完整的講賴院長那時候的想法應該是把公債法行政區劃法還有財政收支劃分法一起來談因為這個行政區劃法其實剛剛部長也講到很重要的一點\n250991\t278971\t希望如果有行政區劃法之後這個行政區劃會是完整的而不是今天某個鄉鎮他希望他可以劃入另外一個直轄市那所以由鄉鎮來公投我覺得這個問題會是更麻煩更複雜那尤其我覺得以北北、基桃會比較多這些相關的事務包含很多新北市的離台北市就一線之隔\n279671\t300925\t那他們也要主張如果有台北市的門牌的話這個房價暴增一坪馬上暴增所以這個議題其實需要內政部還有行政院一樣要做出比較完整的一些討論尤其是跟地方的討論千萬千萬我們一定不能像財化法一樣\n301926\t326710\t一劃下去整個行政區劃都亂掉我覺得這個是我們內政委員會接下來必須要很嚴肅很嚴正的來討論這些問題包含它是程序法或者是接下來的相關的公聽會以及跟地方政府的相關的這些討論希望內政部都可以跟地方政府來做一些比較完整的討論那我也看到\n328231\t343642\t從2018年這個行政院提出這個院版之後呢到2023年內政部也有對是不是納入公投有做一些相關的研究的報告我想這些都是我們必須要很嚴肅的來討論跟參考的來請這個市長來做一個回應2023年後來這個公投的演繹\n353578\t371965\t用委託研究基本上對於公投參考各國的經驗並不是必要的程序有些國家反而公投會牽涉到多大的區域要公投公投反而會變成行政區塊的一個阻礙也有一種情況\n373225\t384855\t所以都是要很嚴肅的來討論當然今天召委的意思是說你要讓這個區的人充分發聲他沒有要保證說就要讓你劃進去新北市啦謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝部長今天只能問你延續剛剛王美惠委員的話題我想跟部長請教很簡單的問題台灣現在是民主我覺得不只民主最重要的是法治的社會這個法治的社會如果有遇到過去我當然小時候曾經看過有幫派去包圍警察局的時候警察怎麼處理部長\n我不曉得委員小時候是指民國紀諜的事情應該就是我小學的時候吧,三十年前啊如果是現在的話,大概不會有這樣的狀況馬上就是,因為他不能到那個警察機關前面去這樣子...幫派包圍警察局,就是質疑警察的執法能力,質疑公權力現在有另外一件事情,政黨率人去包圍地檢署,這是要做什麼?\n他影響台灣的法治影響檢察官判決或者是影響檢察官做相關調查的新政還要施壓恐嚇檢察官那所以呢當天中國國民黨號召包圍台北地檢署\n警政署舉牌七次裡面包含蔣萬安市長在7點24分的時候在北檢外面受訪7點29分進入禁制區內7點40分發言7點54分離開中間警政署很有技巧在蔣萬安進到禁制區以後沒有舉牌過等到蔣萬安出了\n這個禁制區之後才第二次舉牌部長首都市長進入台北地檢署禁制區內企圖影響司法當然內政部有內政部處理的方式我在這邊要講的是全台灣都在看台灣的法治倒退而且由台北市長帶頭啦在蔣萬安身上永遠留下一筆破壞台灣不是民主喔\n是法治的觀念跟30年前幫派去圍警察局有什麼不一樣不是你有沒有辦法做一個回應\n第一個我們的集會遊行法希望能夠去政治化任何人如果你要挑戰集會遊行法裡面尤其是法律所訂定的部分的話站在主管機關的立場我有要求就是要嚴正執行那所以呢我也覺得我們的警員非常的警察非常的辛苦尤其是這一次呢以台北市警局當然我們還有若干的這個保安警察\n在兩天的時間內幾乎24小時在旁邊待命所以我剛有講過台北市警局這個是警政署執法的當然辛苦還有技巧但是我們要跟國人說明的還是很重點的一個為什麼北檢外面不是可以拘禁的地方為什麼是禁制區因為這些人想要影響檢察官的調查\n就跟法院要判決前你到司法院去辦什麼活動都是一樣的都是企圖要影響這直接影響了台灣最有價值的民主第二個法治我們這是一個法治國家謝謝 謝謝部長接下來我想針對今天的這個內容剛才主席也有講到包含這個賴清德總統擔任院長的時候其實提出來的\n行政區劃法其實要完整的講賴院長那時候的想法應該是把公債法行政區劃法還有財政收支劃分法一起來談因為這個行政區劃法其實剛剛部長也講到很重要的一點\n希望如果有行政區劃法之後這個行政區劃會是完整的而不是今天某個鄉鎮他希望他可以劃入另外一個直轄市那所以由鄉鎮來公投我覺得這個問題會是更麻煩更複雜那尤其我覺得以北北、基桃會比較多這些相關的事務包含很多新北市的離台北市就一線之隔\n那他們也要主張如果有台北市的門牌的話這個房價暴增一坪馬上暴增所以這個議題其實需要內政部還有行政院一樣要做出比較完整的一些討論尤其是跟地方的討論千萬千萬我們一定不能像財化法一樣\n一劃下去整個行政區劃都亂掉我覺得這個是我們內政委員會接下來必須要很嚴肅很嚴正的來討論這些問題包含它是程序法或者是接下來的相關的公聽會以及跟地方政府的相關的這些討論希望內政部都可以跟地方政府來做一些比較完整的討論那我也看到\n從2018年這個行政院提出這個院版之後呢到2023年內政部也有對是不是納入公投有做一些相關的研究的報告我想這些都是我們必須要很嚴肅的來討論跟參考的來請這個市長來做一個回應2023年後來這個公投的演繹\n用委託研究基本上對於公投參考各國的經驗並不是必要的程序有些國家反而公投會牽涉到多大的區域要公投公投反而會變成行政區塊的一個阻礙也有一種情況\n所以都是要很嚴肅的來討論當然今天召委的意思是說你要讓這個區的人充分發聲他沒有要保證說就要讓你劃進去新北市啦謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.874 --> 00:30.830\n謝謝部長今天只能問你延續剛剛王美惠委員的話題我想跟部長請教很簡單的問題台灣現在是民主我覺得不只民主最重要的是法治的社會這個法治的社會如果有遇到過去我當然小時候曾經看過有幫派去包圍警察局的時候警察怎麼處理部長\n\n00:35.280 --> 01:00.422\n我不曉得委員小時候是指民國紀諜的事情應該就是我小學的時候吧,三十年前啊如果是現在的話,大概不會有這樣的狀況馬上就是,因為他不能到那個警察機關前面去這樣子...幫派包圍警察局,就是質疑警察的執法能力,質疑公權力現在有另外一件事情,政黨率人去包圍地檢署,這是要做什麼?\n\n01:01.530 --> 01:24.207\n他影響台灣的法治影響檢察官判決或者是影響檢察官做相關調查的新政還要施壓恐嚇檢察官那所以呢當天中國國民黨號召包圍台北地檢署\n\n01:26.020 --> 01:53.631\n警政署舉牌七次裡面包含蔣萬安市長在7點24分的時候在北檢外面受訪7點29分進入禁制區內7點40分發言7點54分離開中間警政署很有技巧在蔣萬安進到禁制區以後沒有舉牌過等到蔣萬安出了\n\n01:55.521 --> 02:23.938\n這個禁制區之後才第二次舉牌部長首都市長進入台北地檢署禁制區內企圖影響司法當然內政部有內政部處理的方式我在這邊要講的是全台灣都在看台灣的法治倒退而且由台北市長帶頭啦在蔣萬安身上永遠留下一筆破壞台灣不是民主喔\n\n02:24.713 --> 02:32.208\n是法治的觀念跟30年前幫派去圍警察局有什麼不一樣不是你有沒有辦法做一個回應\n\n02:37.709 --> 03:00.081\n第一個我們的集會遊行法希望能夠去政治化任何人如果你要挑戰集會遊行法裡面尤其是法律所訂定的部分的話站在主管機關的立場我有要求就是要嚴正執行那所以呢我也覺得我們的警員非常的警察非常的辛苦尤其是這一次呢以台北市警局當然我們還有若干的這個保安警察\n\n03:01.001 --> 03:24.788\n在兩天的時間內幾乎24小時在旁邊待命所以我剛有講過台北市警局這個是警政署執法的當然辛苦還有技巧但是我們要跟國人說明的還是很重點的一個為什麼北檢外面不是可以拘禁的地方為什麼是禁制區因為這些人想要影響檢察官的調查\n\n03:27.898 --> 03:52.411\n就跟法院要判決前你到司法院去辦什麼活動都是一樣的都是企圖要影響這直接影響了台灣最有價值的民主第二個法治我們這是一個法治國家謝謝謝謝部長接下來我想針對今天的這個內容剛才主席也有講到包含這個賴清德總統擔任院長的時候其實提出來的\n\n03:55.051 --> 04:10.290\n行政區劃法其實要完整的講賴院長那時候的想法應該是把公債法行政區劃法還有財政收支劃分法一起來談因為這個行政區劃法其實剛剛部長也講到很重要的一點\n\n04:10.991 --> 04:38.971\n希望如果有行政區劃法之後這個行政區劃會是完整的而不是今天某個鄉鎮他希望他可以劃入另外一個直轄市那所以由鄉鎮來公投我覺得這個問題會是更麻煩更複雜那尤其我覺得以北北、基桃會比較多這些相關的事務包含很多新北市的離台北市就一線之隔\n\n04:39.671 --> 05:00.925\n那他們也要主張如果有台北市的門牌的話這個房價暴增一坪馬上暴增所以這個議題其實需要內政部還有行政院一樣要做出比較完整的一些討論尤其是跟地方的討論千萬千萬我們一定不能像財化法一樣\n\n05:01.926 --> 05:26.710\n一劃下去整個行政區劃都亂掉我覺得這個是我們內政委員會接下來必須要很嚴肅很嚴正的來討論這些問題包含它是程序法或者是接下來的相關的公聽會以及跟地方政府的相關的這些討論希望內政部都可以跟地方政府來做一些比較完整的討論那我也看到\n\n05:28.231 --> 05:43.642\n從2018年這個行政院提出這個院版之後呢到2023年內政部也有對是不是納入公投有做一些相關的研究的報告我想這些都是我們必須要很嚴肅的來討論跟參考的來請這個市長來做一個回應2023年後來這個公投的演繹\n\n05:53.578 --> 06:11.965\n用委託研究基本上對於公投參考各國的經驗並不是必要的程序有些國家反而公投會牽涉到多大的區域要公投公投反而會變成行政區塊的一個阻礙也有一種情況\n\n06:13.225 --> 06:24.855\n所以都是要很嚴肅的來討論當然今天召委的意思是說你要讓這個區的人充分發聲他沒有要保證說就要讓你劃進去新北市啦謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.874,"end":30.83,"text":"謝謝部長今天只能問你延續剛剛王美惠委員的話題我想跟部長請教很簡單的問題台灣現在是民主我覺得不只民主最重要的是法治的社會這個法治的社會如果有遇到過去我當然小時候曾經看過有幫派去包圍警察局的時候警察怎麼處理部長"},{"start":35.28,"end":60.422,"text":"我不曉得委員小時候是指民國紀諜的事情應該就是我小學的時候吧,三十年前啊如果是現在的話,大概不會有這樣的狀況馬上就是,因為他不能到那個警察機關前面去這樣子...幫派包圍警察局,就是質疑警察的執法能力,質疑公權力現在有另外一件事情,政黨率人去包圍地檢署,這是要做什麼?"},{"start":61.53,"end":84.207,"text":"他影響台灣的法治影響檢察官判決或者是影響檢察官做相關調查的新政還要施壓恐嚇檢察官那所以呢當天中國國民黨號召包圍台北地檢署"},{"start":86.02,"end":113.631,"text":"警政署舉牌七次裡面包含蔣萬安市長在7點24分的時候在北檢外面受訪7點29分進入禁制區內7點40分發言7點54分離開中間警政署很有技巧在蔣萬安進到禁制區以後沒有舉牌過等到蔣萬安出了"},{"start":115.521,"end":143.938,"text":"這個禁制區之後才第二次舉牌部長首都市長進入台北地檢署禁制區內企圖影響司法當然內政部有內政部處理的方式我在這邊要講的是全台灣都在看台灣的法治倒退而且由台北市長帶頭啦在蔣萬安身上永遠留下一筆破壞台灣不是民主喔"},{"start":144.713,"end":152.208,"text":"是法治的觀念跟30年前幫派去圍警察局有什麼不一樣不是你有沒有辦法做一個回應"},{"start":157.709,"end":180.081,"text":"第一個我們的集會遊行法希望能夠去政治化任何人如果你要挑戰集會遊行法裡面尤其是法律所訂定的部分的話站在主管機關的立場我有要求就是要嚴正執行那所以呢我也覺得我們的警員非常的警察非常的辛苦尤其是這一次呢以台北市警局當然我們還有若干的這個保安警察"},{"start":181.001,"end":204.788,"text":"在兩天的時間內幾乎24小時在旁邊待命所以我剛有講過台北市警局這個是警政署執法的當然辛苦還有技巧但是我們要跟國人說明的還是很重點的一個為什麼北檢外面不是可以拘禁的地方為什麼是禁制區因為這些人想要影響檢察官的調查"},{"start":207.898,"end":232.411,"text":"就跟法院要判決前你到司法院去辦什麼活動都是一樣的都是企圖要影響這直接影響了台灣最有價值的民主第二個法治我們這是一個法治國家謝謝 謝謝部長接下來我想針對今天的這個內容剛才主席也有講到包含這個賴清德總統擔任院長的時候其實提出來的"},{"start":235.051,"end":250.29,"text":"行政區劃法其實要完整的講賴院長那時候的想法應該是把公債法行政區劃法還有財政收支劃分法一起來談因為這個行政區劃法其實剛剛部長也講到很重要的一點"},{"start":250.991,"end":278.971,"text":"希望如果有行政區劃法之後這個行政區劃會是完整的而不是今天某個鄉鎮他希望他可以劃入另外一個直轄市那所以由鄉鎮來公投我覺得這個問題會是更麻煩更複雜那尤其我覺得以北北、基桃會比較多這些相關的事務包含很多新北市的離台北市就一線之隔"},{"start":279.671,"end":300.925,"text":"那他們也要主張如果有台北市的門牌的話這個房價暴增一坪馬上暴增所以這個議題其實需要內政部還有行政院一樣要做出比較完整的一些討論尤其是跟地方的討論千萬千萬我們一定不能像財化法一樣"},{"start":301.926,"end":326.71,"text":"一劃下去整個行政區劃都亂掉我覺得這個是我們內政委員會接下來必須要很嚴肅很嚴正的來討論這些問題包含它是程序法或者是接下來的相關的公聽會以及跟地方政府的相關的這些討論希望內政部都可以跟地方政府來做一些比較完整的討論那我也看到"},{"start":328.231,"end":343.642,"text":"從2018年這個行政院提出這個院版之後呢到2023年內政部也有對是不是納入公投有做一些相關的研究的報告我想這些都是我們必須要很嚴肅的來討論跟參考的來請這個市長來做一個回應2023年後來這個公投的演繹"},{"start":353.578,"end":371.965,"text":"用委託研究基本上對於公投參考各國的經驗並不是必要的程序有些國家反而公投會牽涉到多大的區域要公投公投反而會變成行政區塊的一個阻礙也有一種情況"},{"start":373.225,"end":384.855,"text":"所以都是要很嚴肅的來討論當然今天召委的意思是說你要讓這個區的人充分發聲他沒有要保證說就要讓你劃進去新北市啦謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":395,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（9時50分）謝謝部長。延續剛剛王美惠委員的話題，我想跟部長請教很簡單的問題，臺灣現在是民主，我覺得不只民主，最重要的是法治的社會，這個法治的社會如果有遇到……過去我當然小時候曾經看過，有幫派去包圍警察局的時候，警察會怎麼處理？部長。"],["劉部長世芳：我不曉得委員小時候是指民國幾年的事情。"],["李委員柏毅：應該就是我小學的時候，三十年前啦！"],["劉部長世芳：如果是現在的話，大概不會有這樣的狀況，馬上就會處理，因為他不能到警察機關前面去這樣做。"],["李委員柏毅：幫派包圍警察局就是質疑警察的執法能力、質疑公權力。現在有另外一件事情，政黨率人去包圍地檢署，這是要做什麼？它影響臺灣的法治、影響檢察官做相關調查的心證，還有施壓、恐嚇檢察官，所以當天中國國民黨號召包圍臺北地檢署，警政署舉牌7次，裡面包含蔣萬安市長在7點24分的時候在北檢外面受訪，7點29分進入禁制區內，7點40分發言，7點54分離開，這中間警政署很有技巧，在蔣萬安進到禁制區以後，沒有舉牌過，等到蔣萬安出了這個禁制區之後才第2次舉牌。部長，首都市長進入臺北地檢署禁制區內，企圖影響司法，當然內政部有內政部處理的方式，我在這邊要講的是，全臺灣都在看，臺灣的法治倒退，而且是由臺北市長帶頭！在蔣萬安身上永遠留下一筆，破壞臺灣，不是民主而是法治的觀念，跟三十年前幫派去圍警察局有什麼不一樣？部長，你有沒有辦法做一個回應？"],["劉部長世芳：第一個，我們的集會遊行法希望能夠去政治化，任何人如果要挑戰集會遊行法裡面，尤其是法律所訂定的部分的話，站在主管機關的立場，我有要求要嚴正執行，所以我也覺得我們的警察非常辛苦，尤其是這一次臺北市警局，當然還有若干的保安警察，在兩天的時間內幾乎24小時在旁邊待命，所以我剛才有講過，就是臺北市警局……"],["李委員柏毅：這個是警政署執法的，當然辛苦啦，還有技巧，但是我們要跟國人說明的還是一個重點，為什麼北檢外面不是可以進去的地方……"],["劉部長世芳：這裡是禁制區。"],["李委員柏毅：為什麼是禁制區？因為這些人想要影響檢察官的調查，就跟法院要判決前，你到司法院去辦什麼活動都是一樣的，都是企圖要影響，這直接影響了臺灣最有價值的民主，第二個是法治，我們就是一個法治國家。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝部長。接下來我想針對今天的內容，剛才主席也有講到，包含賴清德總統擔任院長的時候提出來的行政區劃法，其實要完整的講賴院長那時候的想法，應該是把公債法、行政區劃法還有財政收支劃分法一起來談，因為這個行政區劃法，其實剛剛部長有講到很重要的一點，希望如果有行政區劃法之後，這個行政區劃會是完整的，而不是今天某個鄉鎮希望可以劃入另外一個直轄市，所以由鄉鎮來公投，我覺得這個問題會更麻煩、更複雜，尤其我覺得北北基桃會有比較多相關的這些事務，包含很多新北市的離臺北市就一線之隔，他們也要主張如果有臺北市的門牌的話，哇！這個房價暴增，一坪價格馬上暴增，所以這個議題其實需要內政部以及行政院一樣要做出比較完整的討論，尤其是跟地方的討論，我們千萬、千萬、一定不能像財劃法一樣，一劃下去整個行政區劃都亂掉，我覺得我們內政委員會接下來必須要很嚴肅、很嚴正的來討論這些問題，包含它是程序法，或者是接下來相關的公聽會，以及跟地方政府相關的這些討論，希望內政部都可以跟地方政府來做一些比較完整的討論。","我也看到從2018年行政院提出院版之後，到2023年，內政部也有對是不是納入公投有做一些相關的研究報告，我想這些都是我們必須要很嚴肅的來討論跟參考的，請司長來做一個回應，就是關於2023年後來這個公投的研議。"],["鄭司長英弘：我們有做委託研究，基本上對於公投，參考各國的經驗並不是必要的程序，有些國家反而公投會……"],["李委員柏毅：公投會牽涉到到底多大的區域要公投嘛！"],["鄭司長英弘：公投反而會變成行政區劃的一個阻礙，也有這種情況。"],["李委員柏毅：對，所以這個都是要很嚴肅的來討論，當然今天召委的意思是說，要讓這個區的人充分發聲，他沒有要保證說就要讓你劃進去新北市啦！"],["鄭司長英弘：是。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李柏毅委員。"],["李委員柏毅：我對你很好啦！"],["主席：我們要的就是一個遊戲規則啦，內容上都可以在審法條的時候討論，但我們希望有具體的進度，好不好？好，謝謝李柏毅委員質詢，下一位我們請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-12","speakers":["牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","高金素梅","廖先翔","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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