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{\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 447.804, \"end\": 447.824, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"導\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,911 --> 00:00:08,936\n謝謝主席我們請劉世芳劉部長劉部長有請\n\n2\n00:00:14,011 --> 00:00:40,512\n主委你好部長好我想今天我們討論的是行政區劃法的部分其實這個內政部在民國80年就已經開始推動行政區劃法的工作那到了106年當時擔任行政院長的賴清德總統在年終記者會議均衡台灣為題宣誓將啟動研議台灣行政區的重劃那在107年的5月的院會也通過行政區劃法的草案\n\n3\n00:00:41,332 --> 00:01:01,837\n那我想不管是縣市的合併或是行政區的整併其實都需要有完整的法源依據才能避免爭端那當然我們今天在討論兩個版本之前我們可以先回顧到四年前在2021年的時候時任新竹市長林志堅他拋出竹竹餅那當時新竹縣長楊文科則主張\n\n4\n00:01:04,358 --> 00:01:33,067\n猪猪喵合并那人口数就可以达到升格为直辖式的门槛但也牵扯出县市合并缺乏法源基础当然当时民进党为了猪猪并有强推地方制度法的修法并以禁服二读的方式闯关当然最后在国民党的强力杯葛之下修法到目前并没有通过那请问部长县市合并应该是要由上而下还是由下而上来整合推动\n\n5\n00:01:33,772 --> 00:02:00,022\n報告委員現在兩種這個方式都可以但是目前行政院幾乎沒有由上而下這樣推動因為還是要有綜合地方的民意所以由下而上來推動的話我覺得這樣子的方向可能比較符合目前我們的這個公民行政的方向我想不管由上而下由下而上其實最重要就是要有明確的法源才能避免過去因人涉事的一個爭議那請問部長\n\n6\n00:02:01,983 --> 00:02:07,557\n內政部現在有沒有規劃出行政區劃法草案或者行政區劃程序法草案的工作\n\n7\n00:02:08,537 --> 00:02:30,409\n報告委員我們在那個113年的9月的時候呢當時就是前任的這個內政部長有提到說是不是我們用行政區劃的程序法的方式來推動那但是呢因為我們在要推動到行政院去參考的過程當中呢很多專家學者會覺得說光就行政區劃的這樣的遊戲規則推動的時候呢你如果沒有去把這個實質法\n\n8\n00:02:36,132 --> 00:02:56,945\n包括財政的部分所以那支部有規劃提出嗎目前我們是有一個送到這個行政院的一個審查當中是109年送上去叫行政區劃程序法109年送上去那今年是114年了就是5年前送上去對但是剛剛有跟委員提到就是行政院在111年有審查之後有提出四個這個原則的疑義我剛在這個書面報告還有這個口頭報告都提到了\n\n9\n00:03:03,869 --> 00:03:18,770\n就是跟地方制度的借鉴的问题还有公民投票的问题对请部长针对不管是行政区划法还是行政区划法的这个程序法的草案也希望尽快能够不能像一拖了五年然后完全都没有下文是我们会来努力谢谢部长\n\n10\n00:03:19,270 --> 00:03:33,892\n那另外想請教部長就是在2008年11月的時候時任民進黨的主席蔡英文在民進黨執政時會能修正集會遊行法來道歉那集會遊行法的第六條規定禁制區\n\n11\n00:03:35,213 --> 00:03:57,682\n就是如果集會遊行的話需經政府同意並在第六條規定禁制區針對極有法的爭議大法官釋字第718號也有指出緊急集會無需許可那部長你說要將4月17號到台北地檢署抗議司法不公的所有人都移送法辦請問你移送我了嗎\n\n12\n00:03:59,002 --> 00:04:21,557\n報告委員我剛所說的部分就是說在我們的集會遊行法的規定裡面我們會按照規定來處理如果必要的話就是移送法辦但是移送法辦的過程當中還有包括我們第一線非常辛苦的警政同仁他們在收證的過程當中是否有提出事實的依據所以我們現在就是依照我給你看我在現場\n\n13\n00:04:23,578 --> 00:04:50,310\n我刚有跟委员报告过就是说我们移送的过程当中我们是尊重警政署的意见过去八年我想民进党执政的时候都认为这个民进党之前主张极有法是恶法结果现在民进党执政的时候却用这个来打压异己那按照部长的标准您可以看一下在2008年我刚刚有讲过了时任立委的赖清德总统担任民进党\n\n14\n00:04:51,010 --> 00:05:16,563\n的幹事長提出集會遊行的修法那要將許可制改為報備職而且取消集遊管制區並刪除主管機關的命令集會遊行的一個權利那甚至在2008年的這個雲林地檢署這個有關蘇志芬的社會案當時呢我們的民進黨的立委柯建民也有號召群眾包圍地檢署另外呢在去年的這個\n\n15\n00:05:19,124 --> 00:05:28,891\n二次年12月20號青鳥包圍立法院當時的柯建民總召有在現場蠱惑甚至鍾嘉斌也有移除柵欄揮手衝進青鳥這個闖立院那請問當時有移送法辦嗎\n\n16\n00:05:38,425 --> 00:05:57,340\n當時部長你有主張要向這些人移送法班嗎?報告委員那個立法院是不是集會遊行的地方立法院是可以這樣子的嗎?立法院是可以衝撞進來的嗎?是可以這樣子的方式嗎?就我所了解立法院現在不是集會遊行的禁制區所以部長是鼓勵可以這樣衝撞進來嗎?可以用這樣的方式推倒柵欄嗎?\n\n17\n00:06:02,148 --> 00:06:28,037\n我們都依法行政我們當然鼓勵依法行政但是不能只是辦爛不爛的綠但是也要有事實的依據我們是依據事實來做任何集會遊行法的規定所以當時沒有嘛那我再請教一下部長您看一下4月19號的民進黨的遊行依照集遊法第四條的規定集會遊行不得主張共產主義或分裂國土那現場有人主張台獨算不算違反集遊法要不要全部移送法辦\n\n18\n00:06:29,317 --> 00:06:56,845\n這個我們會尊重這個警政署對於集會遊行法上面的事實依據來做是否移送的根據部長我要提醒你喔有時候不要對於民進黨有利的你們就堅持然後對於現在呢你們就是辦男不辦女所以希望集會遊行法如果過時了就應該要修正該修正就要修正所要要不要移送的部分的話是我們的警政同仁按照集會遊行法的相關規定那部長你那時候在講說全數要移送是價值到齊嗎\n\n19\n00:06:57,705 --> 00:07:24,380\n沒有,我跟委員報告,我所說的部分,呃,我想,委員按照依法委員職權行使法,跟按照極有法,或是按照社會秩序維護法,各種不同的主法機關,我在行政系統,去干預司法,那尤其是我們在野黨,請你們一定要依法行政,不要辦案不辦理。是,我一定是依法行政,謝謝委員的指教。\n\n20\n00:07:26,209 --> 00:07:27,824\n好謝謝徐益臻委員的指導\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6911\t8936\t謝謝主席 我們請劉世芳劉部長劉部長有請\n14011\t40512\t主委你好部長好我想今天我們討論的是行政區劃法的部分其實這個內政部在民國80年就已經開始推動行政區劃法的工作那到了106年當時擔任行政院長的賴清德總統在年終記者會議均衡台灣為題宣誓將啟動研議台灣行政區的重劃那在107年的5月的院會也通過行政區劃法的草案\n41332\t61837\t那我想不管是縣市的合併或是行政區的整併其實都需要有完整的法源依據才能避免爭端那當然我們今天在討論兩個版本之前我們可以先回顧到四年前在2021年的時候時任新竹市長林志堅他拋出竹竹餅那當時新竹縣長楊文科則主張\n64358\t93067\t猪猪喵合并那人口数就可以达到升格为直辖式的门槛但也牵扯出县市合并缺乏法源基础当然当时民进党为了猪猪并有强推地方制度法的修法并以禁服二读的方式闯关当然最后在国民党的强力杯葛之下修法到目前并没有通过那请问部长县市合并应该是要由上而下还是由下而上来整合推动\n93772\t120022\t報告委員現在兩種這個方式都可以但是目前行政院幾乎沒有由上而下這樣推動因為還是要有綜合地方的民意所以由下而上來推動的話我覺得這樣子的方向可能比較符合目前我們的這個公民行政的方向我想不管由上而下由下而上其實最重要就是要有明確的法源才能避免過去因人涉事的一個爭議那請問部長\n121983\t127557\t內政部現在有沒有規劃出行政區劃法草案或者行政區劃程序法草案的工作\n128537\t150409\t報告委員我們在那個113年的9月的時候呢當時就是前任的這個內政部長有提到說是不是我們用行政區劃的程序法的方式來推動那但是呢因為我們在要推動到行政院去參考的過程當中呢很多專家學者會覺得說光就行政區劃的這樣的遊戲規則推動的時候呢你如果沒有去把這個實質法\n156132\t176945\t包括財政的部分所以那支部有規劃提出嗎目前我們是有一個送到這個行政院的一個審查當中是109年送上去叫行政區劃程序法109年送上去那今年是114年了就是5年前送上去對 但是剛剛有跟委員提到就是行政院在111年有審查之後有提出四個這個原則的疑義我剛在這個書面報告還有這個口頭報告都提到了\n183869\t198770\t就是跟地方制度的借鉴的问题还有公民投票的问题对 请部长针对不管是行政区划法还是行政区划法的这个程序法的草案也希望尽快能够不能像一拖了五年然后完全都没有下文是 我们会来努力谢谢部长\n199270\t213892\t那另外想請教部長就是在2008年11月的時候時任民進黨的主席蔡英文在民進黨執政時會能修正集會遊行法來道歉那集會遊行法的第六條規定禁制區\n215213\t237682\t就是如果集會遊行的話需經政府同意並在第六條規定禁制區針對極有法的爭議大法官釋字第718號也有指出緊急集會無需許可那部長你說要將4月17號到台北地檢署抗議司法不公的所有人都移送法辦請問你移送我了嗎\n239002\t261557\t報告委員我剛所說的部分就是說在我們的集會遊行法的規定裡面我們會按照規定來處理如果必要的話就是移送法辦但是移送法辦的過程當中還有包括我們第一線非常辛苦的警政同仁他們在收證的過程當中是否有提出事實的依據所以我們現在就是依照我給你看我在現場\n263578\t290310\t我刚有跟委员报告过就是说我们移送的过程当中我们是尊重警政署的意见过去八年我想民进党执政的时候都认为这个民进党之前主张极有法是恶法结果现在民进党执政的时候却用这个来打压异己那按照部长的标准您可以看一下在2008年我刚刚有讲过了时任立委的赖清德总统担任民进党\n291010\t316563\t的幹事長提出集會遊行的修法那要將許可制改為報備職而且取消集遊管制區並刪除主管機關的命令集會遊行的一個權利那甚至在2008年的這個雲林地檢署這個有關蘇志芬的社會案當時呢我們的民進黨的立委柯建民也有號召群眾包圍地檢署另外呢在去年的這個\n319124\t328891\t二次年12月20號青鳥包圍立法院當時的柯建民總召有在現場蠱惑甚至鍾嘉斌也有移除柵欄揮手衝進青鳥這個闖立院那請問當時有移送法辦嗎\n338425\t357340\t當時部長你有主張要向這些人移送法班嗎?報告委員那個立法院是不是集會遊行的地方立法院是可以這樣子的嗎?立法院是可以衝撞進來的嗎?是可以這樣子的方式嗎?就我所了解立法院現在不是集會遊行的禁制區所以部長是鼓勵可以這樣衝撞進來嗎?可以用這樣的方式推倒柵欄嗎?\n362148\t388037\t我們都依法行政我們當然鼓勵依法行政但是不能只是辦爛不爛的綠但是也要有事實的依據我們是依據事實來做任何集會遊行法的規定所以當時沒有嘛那我再請教一下部長您看一下4月19號的民進黨的遊行依照集遊法第四條的規定集會遊行不得主張共產主義或分裂國土那現場有人主張台獨算不算違反集遊法要不要全部移送法辦\n389317\t416845\t這個我們會尊重這個警政署對於集會遊行法上面的事實依據來做是否移送的根據部長我要提醒你喔有時候不要對於民進黨有利的你們就堅持然後對於現在呢你們就是辦男不辦女所以希望集會遊行法如果過時了就應該要修正該修正就要修正所要要不要移送的部分的話是我們的警政同仁按照集會遊行法的相關規定那部長你那時候在講說全數要移送是價值到齊嗎\n417705\t444380\t沒有,我跟委員報告,我所說的部分,呃,我想,委員按照依法委員職權行使法,跟按照極有法,或是按照社會秩序維護法,各種不同的主法機關,我在行政系統,去干預司法,那尤其是我們在野黨,請你們一定要依法行政,不要辦案不辦理。是,我一定是依法行政,謝謝委員的指教。\n446209\t447824\t好 謝謝徐益臻委員的指導\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們請劉世芳劉部長劉部長有請\n主委你好部長好我想今天我們討論的是行政區劃法的部分其實這個內政部在民國80年就已經開始推動行政區劃法的工作那到了106年當時擔任行政院長的賴清德總統在年終記者會議均衡台灣為題宣誓將啟動研議台灣行政區的重劃那在107年的5月的院會也通過行政區劃法的草案\n那我想不管是縣市的合併或是行政區的整併其實都需要有完整的法源依據才能避免爭端那當然我們今天在討論兩個版本之前我們可以先回顧到四年前在2021年的時候時任新竹市長林志堅他拋出竹竹餅那當時新竹縣長楊文科則主張\n猪猪喵合并那人口数就可以达到升格为直辖式的门槛但也牵扯出县市合并缺乏法源基础当然当时民进党为了猪猪并有强推地方制度法的修法并以禁服二读的方式闯关当然最后在国民党的强力杯葛之下修法到目前并没有通过那请问部长县市合并应该是要由上而下还是由下而上来整合推动\n報告委員現在兩種這個方式都可以但是目前行政院幾乎沒有由上而下這樣推動因為還是要有綜合地方的民意所以由下而上來推動的話我覺得這樣子的方向可能比較符合目前我們的這個公民行政的方向我想不管由上而下由下而上其實最重要就是要有明確的法源才能避免過去因人涉事的一個爭議那請問部長\n內政部現在有沒有規劃出行政區劃法草案或者行政區劃程序法草案的工作\n報告委員我們在那個113年的9月的時候呢當時就是前任的這個內政部長有提到說是不是我們用行政區劃的程序法的方式來推動那但是呢因為我們在要推動到行政院去參考的過程當中呢很多專家學者會覺得說光就行政區劃的這樣的遊戲規則推動的時候呢你如果沒有去把這個實質法\n包括財政的部分所以那支部有規劃提出嗎目前我們是有一個送到這個行政院的一個審查當中是109年送上去叫行政區劃程序法109年送上去那今年是114年了就是5年前送上去對 但是剛剛有跟委員提到就是行政院在111年有審查之後有提出四個這個原則的疑義我剛在這個書面報告還有這個口頭報告都提到了\n就是跟地方制度的借鉴的问题还有公民投票的问题对 请部长针对不管是行政区划法还是行政区划法的这个程序法的草案也希望尽快能够不能像一拖了五年然后完全都没有下文是 我们会来努力谢谢部长\n那另外想請教部長就是在2008年11月的時候時任民進黨的主席蔡英文在民進黨執政時會能修正集會遊行法來道歉那集會遊行法的第六條規定禁制區\n就是如果集會遊行的話需經政府同意並在第六條規定禁制區針對極有法的爭議大法官釋字第718號也有指出緊急集會無需許可那部長你說要將4月17號到台北地檢署抗議司法不公的所有人都移送法辦請問你移送我了嗎\n報告委員我剛所說的部分就是說在我們的集會遊行法的規定裡面我們會按照規定來處理如果必要的話就是移送法辦但是移送法辦的過程當中還有包括我們第一線非常辛苦的警政同仁他們在收證的過程當中是否有提出事實的依據所以我們現在就是依照我給你看我在現場\n我刚有跟委员报告过就是说我们移送的过程当中我们是尊重警政署的意见过去八年我想民进党执政的时候都认为这个民进党之前主张极有法是恶法结果现在民进党执政的时候却用这个来打压异己那按照部长的标准您可以看一下在2008年我刚刚有讲过了时任立委的赖清德总统担任民进党\n的幹事長提出集會遊行的修法那要將許可制改為報備職而且取消集遊管制區並刪除主管機關的命令集會遊行的一個權利那甚至在2008年的這個雲林地檢署這個有關蘇志芬的社會案當時呢我們的民進黨的立委柯建民也有號召群眾包圍地檢署另外呢在去年的這個\n二次年12月20號青鳥包圍立法院當時的柯建民總召有在現場蠱惑甚至鍾嘉斌也有移除柵欄揮手衝進青鳥這個闖立院那請問當時有移送法辦嗎\n當時部長你有主張要向這些人移送法班嗎?報告委員那個立法院是不是集會遊行的地方立法院是可以這樣子的嗎?立法院是可以衝撞進來的嗎?是可以這樣子的方式嗎?就我所了解立法院現在不是集會遊行的禁制區所以部長是鼓勵可以這樣衝撞進來嗎?可以用這樣的方式推倒柵欄嗎?\n我們都依法行政我們當然鼓勵依法行政但是不能只是辦爛不爛的綠但是也要有事實的依據我們是依據事實來做任何集會遊行法的規定所以當時沒有嘛那我再請教一下部長您看一下4月19號的民進黨的遊行依照集遊法第四條的規定集會遊行不得主張共產主義或分裂國土那現場有人主張台獨算不算違反集遊法要不要全部移送法辦\n這個我們會尊重這個警政署對於集會遊行法上面的事實依據來做是否移送的根據部長我要提醒你喔有時候不要對於民進黨有利的你們就堅持然後對於現在呢你們就是辦男不辦女所以希望集會遊行法如果過時了就應該要修正該修正就要修正所要要不要移送的部分的話是我們的警政同仁按照集會遊行法的相關規定那部長你那時候在講說全數要移送是價值到齊嗎\n沒有,我跟委員報告,我所說的部分,呃,我想,委員按照依法委員職權行使法,跟按照極有法,或是按照社會秩序維護法,各種不同的主法機關,我在行政系統,去干預司法,那尤其是我們在野黨,請你們一定要依法行政,不要辦案不辦理。是,我一定是依法行政,謝謝委員的指教。\n好 謝謝徐益臻委員的指導\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.911 --> 00:08.936\n謝謝主席我們請劉世芳劉部長劉部長有請\n\n00:14.011 --> 00:40.512\n主委你好部長好我想今天我們討論的是行政區劃法的部分其實這個內政部在民國80年就已經開始推動行政區劃法的工作那到了106年當時擔任行政院長的賴清德總統在年終記者會議均衡台灣為題宣誓將啟動研議台灣行政區的重劃那在107年的5月的院會也通過行政區劃法的草案\n\n00:41.332 --> 01:01.837\n那我想不管是縣市的合併或是行政區的整併其實都需要有完整的法源依據才能避免爭端那當然我們今天在討論兩個版本之前我們可以先回顧到四年前在2021年的時候時任新竹市長林志堅他拋出竹竹餅那當時新竹縣長楊文科則主張\n\n01:04.358 --> 01:33.067\n猪猪喵合并那人口数就可以达到升格为直辖式的门槛但也牵扯出县市合并缺乏法源基础当然当时民进党为了猪猪并有强推地方制度法的修法并以禁服二读的方式闯关当然最后在国民党的强力杯葛之下修法到目前并没有通过那请问部长县市合并应该是要由上而下还是由下而上来整合推动\n\n01:33.772 --> 02:00.022\n報告委員現在兩種這個方式都可以但是目前行政院幾乎沒有由上而下這樣推動因為還是要有綜合地方的民意所以由下而上來推動的話我覺得這樣子的方向可能比較符合目前我們的這個公民行政的方向我想不管由上而下由下而上其實最重要就是要有明確的法源才能避免過去因人涉事的一個爭議那請問部長\n\n02:01.983 --> 02:07.557\n內政部現在有沒有規劃出行政區劃法草案或者行政區劃程序法草案的工作\n\n02:08.537 --> 02:30.409\n報告委員我們在那個113年的9月的時候呢當時就是前任的這個內政部長有提到說是不是我們用行政區劃的程序法的方式來推動那但是呢因為我們在要推動到行政院去參考的過程當中呢很多專家學者會覺得說光就行政區劃的這樣的遊戲規則推動的時候呢你如果沒有去把這個實質法\n\n02:36.132 --> 02:56.945\n包括財政的部分所以那支部有規劃提出嗎目前我們是有一個送到這個行政院的一個審查當中是109年送上去叫行政區劃程序法109年送上去那今年是114年了就是5年前送上去對但是剛剛有跟委員提到就是行政院在111年有審查之後有提出四個這個原則的疑義我剛在這個書面報告還有這個口頭報告都提到了\n\n03:03.869 --> 03:18.770\n就是跟地方制度的借鉴的问题还有公民投票的问题对请部长针对不管是行政区划法还是行政区划法的这个程序法的草案也希望尽快能够不能像一拖了五年然后完全都没有下文是我们会来努力谢谢部长\n\n03:19.270 --> 03:33.892\n那另外想請教部長就是在2008年11月的時候時任民進黨的主席蔡英文在民進黨執政時會能修正集會遊行法來道歉那集會遊行法的第六條規定禁制區\n\n03:35.213 --> 03:57.682\n就是如果集會遊行的話需經政府同意並在第六條規定禁制區針對極有法的爭議大法官釋字第718號也有指出緊急集會無需許可那部長你說要將4月17號到台北地檢署抗議司法不公的所有人都移送法辦請問你移送我了嗎\n\n03:59.002 --> 04:21.557\n報告委員我剛所說的部分就是說在我們的集會遊行法的規定裡面我們會按照規定來處理如果必要的話就是移送法辦但是移送法辦的過程當中還有包括我們第一線非常辛苦的警政同仁他們在收證的過程當中是否有提出事實的依據所以我們現在就是依照我給你看我在現場\n\n04:23.578 --> 04:50.310\n我刚有跟委员报告过就是说我们移送的过程当中我们是尊重警政署的意见过去八年我想民进党执政的时候都认为这个民进党之前主张极有法是恶法结果现在民进党执政的时候却用这个来打压异己那按照部长的标准您可以看一下在2008年我刚刚有讲过了时任立委的赖清德总统担任民进党\n\n04:51.010 --> 05:16.563\n的幹事長提出集會遊行的修法那要將許可制改為報備職而且取消集遊管制區並刪除主管機關的命令集會遊行的一個權利那甚至在2008年的這個雲林地檢署這個有關蘇志芬的社會案當時呢我們的民進黨的立委柯建民也有號召群眾包圍地檢署另外呢在去年的這個\n\n05:19.124 --> 05:28.891\n二次年12月20號青鳥包圍立法院當時的柯建民總召有在現場蠱惑甚至鍾嘉斌也有移除柵欄揮手衝進青鳥這個闖立院那請問當時有移送法辦嗎\n\n05:38.425 --> 05:57.340\n當時部長你有主張要向這些人移送法班嗎?報告委員那個立法院是不是集會遊行的地方立法院是可以這樣子的嗎?立法院是可以衝撞進來的嗎?是可以這樣子的方式嗎?就我所了解立法院現在不是集會遊行的禁制區所以部長是鼓勵可以這樣衝撞進來嗎?可以用這樣的方式推倒柵欄嗎?\n\n06:02.148 --> 06:28.037\n我們都依法行政我們當然鼓勵依法行政但是不能只是辦爛不爛的綠但是也要有事實的依據我們是依據事實來做任何集會遊行法的規定所以當時沒有嘛那我再請教一下部長您看一下4月19號的民進黨的遊行依照集遊法第四條的規定集會遊行不得主張共產主義或分裂國土那現場有人主張台獨算不算違反集遊法要不要全部移送法辦\n\n06:29.317 --> 06:56.845\n這個我們會尊重這個警政署對於集會遊行法上面的事實依據來做是否移送的根據部長我要提醒你喔有時候不要對於民進黨有利的你們就堅持然後對於現在呢你們就是辦男不辦女所以希望集會遊行法如果過時了就應該要修正該修正就要修正所要要不要移送的部分的話是我們的警政同仁按照集會遊行法的相關規定那部長你那時候在講說全數要移送是價值到齊嗎\n\n06:57.705 --> 07:24.380\n沒有,我跟委員報告,我所說的部分,呃,我想,委員按照依法委員職權行使法,跟按照極有法,或是按照社會秩序維護法,各種不同的主法機關,我在行政系統,去干預司法,那尤其是我們在野黨,請你們一定要依法行政,不要辦案不辦理。是,我一定是依法行政,謝謝委員的指教。\n\n07:26.209 --> 07:27.824\n好謝謝徐益臻委員的指導\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.911,"end":8.936,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請劉世芳劉部長劉部長有請"},{"start":14.011,"end":40.512,"text":"主委你好部長好我想今天我們討論的是行政區劃法的部分其實這個內政部在民國80年就已經開始推動行政區劃法的工作那到了106年當時擔任行政院長的賴清德總統在年終記者會議均衡台灣為題宣誓將啟動研議台灣行政區的重劃那在107年的5月的院會也通過行政區劃法的草案"},{"start":41.332,"end":61.837,"text":"那我想不管是縣市的合併或是行政區的整併其實都需要有完整的法源依據才能避免爭端那當然我們今天在討論兩個版本之前我們可以先回顧到四年前在2021年的時候時任新竹市長林志堅他拋出竹竹餅那當時新竹縣長楊文科則主張"},{"start":64.358,"end":93.067,"text":"猪猪喵合并那人口数就可以达到升格为直辖式的门槛但也牵扯出县市合并缺乏法源基础当然当时民进党为了猪猪并有强推地方制度法的修法并以禁服二读的方式闯关当然最后在国民党的强力杯葛之下修法到目前并没有通过那请问部长县市合并应该是要由上而下还是由下而上来整合推动"},{"start":93.772,"end":120.022,"text":"報告委員現在兩種這個方式都可以但是目前行政院幾乎沒有由上而下這樣推動因為還是要有綜合地方的民意所以由下而上來推動的話我覺得這樣子的方向可能比較符合目前我們的這個公民行政的方向我想不管由上而下由下而上其實最重要就是要有明確的法源才能避免過去因人涉事的一個爭議那請問部長"},{"start":121.983,"end":127.557,"text":"內政部現在有沒有規劃出行政區劃法草案或者行政區劃程序法草案的工作"},{"start":128.537,"end":150.409,"text":"報告委員我們在那個113年的9月的時候呢當時就是前任的這個內政部長有提到說是不是我們用行政區劃的程序法的方式來推動那但是呢因為我們在要推動到行政院去參考的過程當中呢很多專家學者會覺得說光就行政區劃的這樣的遊戲規則推動的時候呢你如果沒有去把這個實質法"},{"start":156.132,"end":176.945,"text":"包括財政的部分所以那支部有規劃提出嗎目前我們是有一個送到這個行政院的一個審查當中是109年送上去叫行政區劃程序法109年送上去那今年是114年了就是5年前送上去對 但是剛剛有跟委員提到就是行政院在111年有審查之後有提出四個這個原則的疑義我剛在這個書面報告還有這個口頭報告都提到了"},{"start":183.869,"end":198.77,"text":"就是跟地方制度的借鉴的问题还有公民投票的问题对 请部长针对不管是行政区划法还是行政区划法的这个程序法的草案也希望尽快能够不能像一拖了五年然后完全都没有下文是 我们会来努力谢谢部长"},{"start":199.27,"end":213.892,"text":"那另外想請教部長就是在2008年11月的時候時任民進黨的主席蔡英文在民進黨執政時會能修正集會遊行法來道歉那集會遊行法的第六條規定禁制區"},{"start":215.213,"end":237.682,"text":"就是如果集會遊行的話需經政府同意並在第六條規定禁制區針對極有法的爭議大法官釋字第718號也有指出緊急集會無需許可那部長你說要將4月17號到台北地檢署抗議司法不公的所有人都移送法辦請問你移送我了嗎"},{"start":239.002,"end":261.557,"text":"報告委員我剛所說的部分就是說在我們的集會遊行法的規定裡面我們會按照規定來處理如果必要的話就是移送法辦但是移送法辦的過程當中還有包括我們第一線非常辛苦的警政同仁他們在收證的過程當中是否有提出事實的依據所以我們現在就是依照我給你看我在現場"},{"start":263.578,"end":290.31,"text":"我刚有跟委员报告过就是说我们移送的过程当中我们是尊重警政署的意见过去八年我想民进党执政的时候都认为这个民进党之前主张极有法是恶法结果现在民进党执政的时候却用这个来打压异己那按照部长的标准您可以看一下在2008年我刚刚有讲过了时任立委的赖清德总统担任民进党"},{"start":291.01,"end":316.563,"text":"的幹事長提出集會遊行的修法那要將許可制改為報備職而且取消集遊管制區並刪除主管機關的命令集會遊行的一個權利那甚至在2008年的這個雲林地檢署這個有關蘇志芬的社會案當時呢我們的民進黨的立委柯建民也有號召群眾包圍地檢署另外呢在去年的這個"},{"start":319.124,"end":328.891,"text":"二次年12月20號青鳥包圍立法院當時的柯建民總召有在現場蠱惑甚至鍾嘉斌也有移除柵欄揮手衝進青鳥這個闖立院那請問當時有移送法辦嗎"},{"start":338.425,"end":357.34,"text":"當時部長你有主張要向這些人移送法班嗎?報告委員那個立法院是不是集會遊行的地方立法院是可以這樣子的嗎?立法院是可以衝撞進來的嗎?是可以這樣子的方式嗎?就我所了解立法院現在不是集會遊行的禁制區所以部長是鼓勵可以這樣衝撞進來嗎?可以用這樣的方式推倒柵欄嗎?"},{"start":362.148,"end":388.037,"text":"我們都依法行政我們當然鼓勵依法行政但是不能只是辦爛不爛的綠但是也要有事實的依據我們是依據事實來做任何集會遊行法的規定所以當時沒有嘛那我再請教一下部長您看一下4月19號的民進黨的遊行依照集遊法第四條的規定集會遊行不得主張共產主義或分裂國土那現場有人主張台獨算不算違反集遊法要不要全部移送法辦"},{"start":389.317,"end":416.845,"text":"這個我們會尊重這個警政署對於集會遊行法上面的事實依據來做是否移送的根據部長我要提醒你喔有時候不要對於民進黨有利的你們就堅持然後對於現在呢你們就是辦男不辦女所以希望集會遊行法如果過時了就應該要修正該修正就要修正所要要不要移送的部分的話是我們的警政同仁按照集會遊行法的相關規定那部長你那時候在講說全數要移送是價值到齊嗎"},{"start":417.705,"end":444.38,"text":"沒有,我跟委員報告,我所說的部分,呃,我想,委員按照依法委員職權行使法,跟按照極有法,或是按照社會秩序維護法,各種不同的主法機關,我在行政系統,去干預司法,那尤其是我們在野黨,請你們一定要依法行政,不要辦案不辦理。是,我一定是依法行政,謝謝委員的指教。"},{"start":446.209,"end":447.824,"text":"好 謝謝徐益臻委員的指導"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":444,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時6分）謝謝主席，請劉世芳部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長好。我們今天討論的是行政區劃法的部分，其實內政部在民國81年就已經開始推動行政區劃法的工作，到了106年，當時擔任行政院長的賴清德總統，在年終記者會以均衡臺灣為題，宣示將啟動研議臺灣行政區的重劃，在107年5月的院會也通過行政區劃法的草案。部長，不管是縣市的合併或是行政區的整併，其實都需要有完整的法源依據，才能避免爭端。","今天在討論兩個版本之前，我們可以先回顧到4年前，在2021年時任新竹市長林智堅拋出「竹竹併」，當時新竹縣長楊文科則主張竹竹苗合併，人口數就可以達到升格為直轄市的門檻，但也牽扯出縣市合併缺乏法源基礎，當時民進黨為了「竹竹併」強推地方制度法的修法，並以逕付二讀的方式闖關，最後在國民黨的強力杯葛之下修法到目前並沒有通過。請問部長，縣市合併應該是要由上而下，還是由下而上來整合推動？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，現在兩種方式都可以，但是目前行政院幾乎沒有由上而下這樣推動，因為還是要綜合地方的民意，所以由下而上來推動的話，我覺得這樣子的方向可能比較符合目前我們公民行政的方向。"],["許委員宇甄：不管由上而下或由下而上，其實最重要是要有明確的法源，才能避免過去因人設事的爭議。請問部長，內政部現在有沒有規劃出行政區劃法草案或者行政區劃程序法草案的工作？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，在113年9月當時的前任內政部長有提到，是不是用行政區劃程序法的方式來推動？但是我們在推動並送到行政院參考的過程當中，很多專家及學者覺得光就行政區劃的這樣遊戲規則推動的時候，如果沒有把實質法，包括財政的部分，或是包括其他……"],["許委員宇甄：內政部有提出規劃嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們有一部行政區劃程序法在109年已經送到行政院，目前在審查當中……"],["許委員宇甄：109年就送去，今年是114年，也就是5年前送去。"],["劉部長世芳：剛剛有跟委員提到，行政院在111年審查後，有提出4個原則的疑義，我剛剛在書面報告，還有口頭報告都有提到，就是跟地方制度介接的問題、授權的問題，還有公民投票的問題。"],["許委員宇甄：請部長針對不管是行政區劃法，還是行政區劃程序法的草案希望能夠儘快辦理，不能一拖了5年，然後完全都沒有下文。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們會再努力。"],["許委員宇甄：謝謝部長。另外，請教部長，在2008年11月民進黨執政時，時任民進黨的黨主席蔡英文針對未能修正集會遊行法來道歉，集會遊行法第六條規定禁制區，集會遊行須經政府同意，並在第六條規定禁制區。針對集遊法的爭議，大法官釋字第718號也指出緊急集會無須許可，部長，你說要將4月17號到臺北地檢署抗議司法不公的所有人都移送法辦？請問你移送我了嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我剛剛所說的就是我們會按照集會遊行法的規定來處理，如果必要的話，就是移送法辦，但是移送法辦要看我們第一線非常辛苦的警政同仁，他們在蒐證的過程當中是否有提出事實的依據，所以我們現在就是依照臺北市……"],["許委員宇甄：所以你移送我了嗎？我給你看，我在現場，你移送我了嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我剛剛有跟委員報告過，就是我們移送的過程當中，我們是尊重警政署的意見。"],["許委員宇甄：民進黨之前都主張集遊法是惡法，結果民進黨執政以後卻用這個來打壓異己。按照部長的標準，您可以看一下，我剛剛有講過了，2008年時任立委的賴清德總統擔任民進黨的幹事長，提出集會遊行法修法，要將許可制改為報備制，而且取消集遊管制區，並刪除主管機關命令集會遊行的權力；甚至在2008年雲林地檢署，有關蘇治芬的涉賄案，當時民進黨立委柯建銘也號召群眾包圍地檢署；另外去年2024年12月20號青鳥包圍立法院，當時的柯建銘總召有在現場蠱惑，鍾佳濱甚至移除柵欄，揮手青鳥闖立院，請問當時有移送法辦嗎？當時部長您有主張要將這些人移送法辦嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，立法院是不是集會遊行……"],["許委員宇甄：立法院是可以這樣子的嗎？立法院是可以衝撞進來的嗎？是可以用這樣的方式讓青鳥進來的嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：就我所了解，立法院現在不是集會遊行的禁制區。"],["許委員宇甄：所以部長是鼓勵可以這樣衝撞進來嗎？可以用這樣的方式推倒柵欄嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們都依法行政。"],["許委員宇甄：我們當然鼓勵依法行政，但是不能只辦藍不辦綠。"],["劉部長世芳：但是也要有事實的依據，我們是依據事實來執行任何集會遊行法的規定。"],["許委員宇甄：所以當時沒有嘛。好，那我再請教一下部長，您看一下4月19號的民進黨遊行，依照集遊法第四條的規定，集會遊行不得主張共產主義或分裂國土，那現場有人主張臺獨算不算違反集遊法？要不要全部移送法辦？"],["劉部長世芳：這個我們會尊重警政署對於集會遊行法上的事實依據來做是否移送的根據。"],["許委員宇甄：部長，我要提醒你，有時候不要對於民進黨有利的，你們就堅持，現在你們就是辦藍不辦綠。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們都非常中立。"],["許委員宇甄：所以集會遊行法如果過時了，就應該要修正。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我特別提到要不要移送，是我們的警政同仁按照集會遊行法的相關規定……"],["許委員宇甄：那部長你那時候說全數要移送，是下指導棋嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我跟委員報告，我所說的部分……"],["許委員宇甄：那要不要就移送我吧！我告訴你了我在場，我在場，你可以移送。"],["劉部長世芳：委員按照立法委員職權行使法跟按照集遊法或按照社會秩序維護法，各有不同的主管機關……"],["許委員宇甄：部長，不要把司法還有你們的行政公權力……"],["劉部長世芳：我在行政系統，不敢干預司法。"],["許委員宇甄：當作你們的工具來欺壓異己，尤其是我們在野黨，請你們一定要依法行政，不要辦藍不辦綠，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我一定依法行政，謝謝委員的指教。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢。","下一位請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-12","speakers":["牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","高金素梅","廖先翔","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃建賓","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「行政區劃法草案」案；二、審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「行政\n區劃法草案」案【僅詢答及宣讀提案條文】","agenda_id":"1144001_00001"}}}