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00:01:14,443\n是委員民進黨執政已經到10年了到今天而原住民使官跟主權的理念是否是有真正體現我們的行政區劃制度當中是不是有被納入我們有非常多的政策的規劃跟制度的設計各位報告這個在105年總統\n\n4\n00:01:21,312 --> 00:01:41,110\n蔡英文代表政府向民族道歉的時候就針對建立史觀這個部分有提出一些看法所以我們在這幾年來針對原住民族史觀的建置我們都不遺餘力也處理了很多一些歷史事件的資料跟目前史觀的建置所以部長請問一下你也支持吧\n\n5\n00:01:42,239 --> 00:02:04,662\n是我想剛剛副主委所講的部分也是我們的立場好謝謝既然大家都同意的話那麼我們就先來回顧一下歷史日據時期的翻地制度把原住民族隔離管理差別對待從制度上就切割了我們的主體性而殖民政權設置了福肯署紙產局\n\n6\n00:02:05,843 --> 00:02:21,481\n粗暴的濫墾濫伐掠奪山林跟土地的資源我們比較遺憾的是殖民治理的邏輯到現在仍然存在在我們的制度當中原住民族被行政區劃切割了\n\n7\n00:02:24,025 --> 00:02:41,276\n我相信中副主委你很清楚我也相信部長也很清楚包括我們的泰雅族就被分裂為七個縣市而排灣族呢他跨越了屏東跟台東兩個地區族群的整體性遭完全的破壞\n\n8\n00:02:42,196 --> 00:03:00,198\n然後治理的資源根本沒有辦法整合因此在今天我非常支持召委的行政區劃法的構想這個構想是將族群特性人文歷史還有環境保護納入行政區劃的核心考量\n\n9\n00:03:00,959 --> 00:03:19,731\n那我相信大家都支持也都同意行政區劃不應該只是人口跟地理的分配他應該反映的是對歷史正義跟文化的尊重並且要正視原住民的文化脈絡跟集體需求請問一下部長您同意這樣子的看法嗎\n\n10\n00:03:21,473 --> 00:03:38,003\n呃我想呃我想那個高金委員所提到的部分呢就是對於原住民的關心哈嗯但是在行政區劃上面呢確實沒有錯現行的行政區劃法呢在透過分流立法的方式呢並沒有現行哈並沒有把原住民\n\n11\n00:03:38,923 --> 00:04:05,588\n劃定在裡面原住民的區域但是未來如果有實質的民族自治尤其是原住民族自治的相關法制的話我們願意透過公聽的方式或是學者專家提供的意見看是否有方便可以放到這個裡面但是因為它所涉及到的部分還是要透過包括各縣市地方政府還有就是原住民區域裡面的族群的部分一起來共同討論我想這樣子比較不會產生太多的爭議很好\n\n12\n00:04:08,749 --> 00:04:31,909\n也就是說由下而上大家來共同討論對吧好所以呢我主張既然大家都談到了原住民的自治原住民的自治跟屠海法其實呢在立法院講了很久一直都沒有付諸行動那既然呢自治還沒談到我們現在就從所謂的行政區劃法我們開始把這個構想概念放在裡面\n\n13\n00:04:32,850 --> 00:04:53,197\n所以我主張以國土計畫中裡面的中央三脈堡玉軸為基礎然後來整合原鄉55個鄉鎮市區來打造一套符合原住民族發展需求的行政區劃的架構這不僅僅只是資源的再分配的問題而是必須要結合產業發展\n\n14\n00:04:54,457 --> 00:05:23,031\n生態保育跟財政的調配來推動符合原住民族發展需求的行政區劃改革我想以這樣子作為一個中心的討論的主軸中副主委你應該同意吧謝謝委員對於原住民族自治的關心的確這20幾年來如何自治如何劃分包括所謂土地也好或者權力也好或權限也好這個都是一直以來大家都在討論的一個議題\n\n15\n00:05:24,585 --> 00:05:43,631\n那針對委員的看法我是尊重委員這樣的一個想法好非常謝謝不管是部長也好園民會也好都同意我的看法也支持我的理念支持我的理念其實也就是支持105年中副主委你所寫的民族政策的發展跟影響對吧那所以今天在這裡我也非常謝謝昭緯\n\n16\n00:05:44,591 --> 00:05:55,965\n提了今天的行政區劃法的構想跟概念的確我們需要討論因為沒有一個法作為依據的時候就沒有辦法討論也沒有辦法定下遊戲規則所以我在這邊有兩個請求\n\n17\n00:06:03,655 --> 00:06:25,297\n第一個我請內政部跟園民會要儘速完成以下兩項的事項並且希望你們在一週之內要回覆本席辦公室第一個就是針對上會期地制法第83之7條直轄市山地區財政挹注相關的問題我要請內政部提出你們的研議結果\n\n18\n00:06:26,378 --> 00:06:44,969\n第二個要請兩機關共同來研擬最適合原住民族的行政區劃的方案並且以本席剛剛所提到的國土計畫中裡面的中央山脈保育軸為基礎然後進行後續整體規劃跟相關法制作業\n\n19\n00:06:46,490 --> 00:07:15,476\n儘速提出具體方向跟時間因為有提出這個之後呢也方便我們在公聽會也方便我們地方由下而上提出一些構想跟想法以上兩點需求希望你們在一週之內能夠提供給本席辦公室可以嗎跟委員報告這兩個議題都尤其是第二個議題還蠻蠻難大的不曉得一週的時間夠不夠喔好那你認為要多久\n\n20\n00:07:16,411 --> 00:07:40,493\n因為這個一定不好討論協文部長報告委員是這樣子地制法八十三支七條的部分我的同仁是告訴我說財政部好像有一些他們的這個說明那另外就是有關國土計畫我想高俊維非常清楚國土計畫法在大院審查的過程當中它是需要六年\n\n21\n00:07:41,496 --> 00:08:06,556\n的時間延到6年以後所以目前為止呢我們的國土計畫呢是以延到6年在區域計畫或者其他相關的計畫的時候再來做調整那現在您所提到的中央山脈保育軸為基礎我是很抱歉我比較才疏學淺我是第一次聽到是不是容我了解一下這個狀況以後呢再來跟我們的國土計畫的相關單位提出一個方向好嗎\n\n22\n00:08:07,116 --> 00:08:32,713\n中央山脈保育軸的問題其實談了很久了是但是在國土計劃法裡面並沒有列進去對您當時還在做我們同事的時候其實我就一直提出這個中央山脈保育軸的問題但是現行的國土計劃法尤其是那個大院所通過的部分並沒有提到這一塊所以我們並沒有在我們的這個行政單位的同仁裡面把它列為是這個現在要提出一週內要提出這個具體的時程所以您認為要多久的時間多久的時間能夠\n\n23\n00:08:35,674 --> 00:08:48,361\n我必須要問我們的國土署的同仁這樣子好不好給你們一個月的時間好不好至少要有一些看法如果有任何意見的話可以到我辦公室我們來做一些討論好嗎\n\n24\n00:08:54,199 --> 00:09:16,270\n報告高經緯我們同仁說你所提到的國土空間發展的部分是國發會所提的部分讓我們回去我們自己行政單位做一下內部的資訊上的收集整合以後再提供給委員參考好嗎所以一個月可以好那請內政部跟這個園民會一個月之內\n\n25\n00:09:17,936 --> 00:09:32,982\n對於以上我提的這兩個方案一個月之內能夠提供給我是就是內政部跟原住民委員會還有財政部跟國發會把這些資訊把它收攏過來以後再提供給委員參考好嗎好OK謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2594\t6857\t原住民族政策的發展與影響原住民族政策的目標是以原住民族的史觀\n26911\t54734\t詮釋歷史為事實基礎然後規劃原民轉型正義具體權利恢復或補償措施走向族群之間真正的和諧而這書中呢也明確的指出原住民史觀強調的是原民早於國家形成之前就已經存在主權人權自由理應該被承認跟尊重請教一下中副主委\n55970\t74443\t是委員民進黨執政已經到10年了到今天而原住民使官跟主權的理念是否是有真正體現我們的行政區劃制度當中是不是有被納入我們有非常多的政策的規劃跟制度的設計各位報告這個在105年總統\n81312\t101110\t蔡英文代表政府向民族道歉的時候就針對建立史觀這個部分有提出一些看法所以我們在這幾年來針對原住民族史觀的建置我們都不遺餘力也處理了很多一些歷史事件的資料跟目前史觀的建置所以部長請問一下你也支持吧\n102239\t124662\t是 我想剛剛副主委所講的部分也是我們的立場好 謝謝既然大家都同意的話那麼我們就先來回顧一下歷史日據時期的翻地制度把原住民族隔離管理差別對待從制度上就切割了我們的主體性而殖民政權設置了福肯署 紙產局\n125843\t141481\t粗暴的濫墾濫伐掠奪山林跟土地的資源我們比較遺憾的是殖民治理的邏輯到現在仍然存在在我們的制度當中原住民族被行政區劃切割了\n144025\t161276\t我相信中副主委你很清楚我也相信部長也很清楚包括我們的泰雅族就被分裂為七個縣市而排灣族呢他跨越了屏東跟台東兩個地區族群的整體性遭完全的破壞\n162196\t180198\t然後治理的資源根本沒有辦法整合因此在今天我非常支持召委的行政區劃法的構想這個構想是將族群特性人文歷史還有環境保護納入行政區劃的核心考量\n180959\t199731\t那我相信大家都支持也都同意行政區劃不應該只是人口跟地理的分配他應該反映的是對歷史正義跟文化的尊重並且要正視原住民的文化脈絡跟集體需求請問一下部長您同意這樣子的看法嗎\n201473\t218003\t呃我想呃我想那個高金委員所提到的部分呢就是對於原住民的關心哈嗯但是在行政區劃上面呢確實沒有錯現行的行政區劃法呢在透過分流立法的方式呢並沒有現行哈並沒有把原住民\n218923\t245588\t劃定在裡面原住民的區域但是未來如果有實質的民族自治尤其是原住民族自治的相關法制的話我們願意透過公聽的方式或是學者專家提供的意見看是否有方便可以放到這個裡面但是因為它所涉及到的部分還是要透過包括各縣市地方政府還有就是原住民區域裡面的族群的部分一起來共同討論我想這樣子比較不會產生太多的爭議很好\n248749\t271909\t也就是說由下而上 大家來共同討論 對吧好 所以呢 我主張 既然大家都談到了原住民的自治原住民的自治跟屠海法 其實呢 在立法院講了很久一直都沒有付諸行動 那既然呢 自治還沒談到我們現在就從所謂的行政區劃法 我們開始把這個構想概念放在裡面\n272850\t293197\t所以我主張以國土計畫中裡面的中央三脈堡玉軸為基礎然後來整合原鄉55個鄉鎮市區來打造一套符合原住民族發展需求的行政區劃的架構這不僅僅只是資源的再分配的問題而是必須要結合產業發展\n294457\t323031\t生態保育跟財政的調配來推動符合原住民族發展需求的行政區劃改革我想以這樣子作為一個中心的討論的主軸中副主委你應該同意吧謝謝委員對於原住民族自治的關心的確這20幾年來如何自治如何劃分包括所謂土地也好或者權力也好或權限也好這個都是一直以來大家都在討論的一個議題\n324585\t343631\t那針對委員的看法我是尊重委員這樣的一個想法好 非常謝謝不管是部長也好 園民會也好都同意我的看法也支持我的理念支持我的理念其實也就是支持105年中副主委你所寫的民族政策的發展跟影響 對吧那所以今天在這裡我也非常謝謝昭緯\n344591\t355965\t提了今天的行政區劃法的構想跟概念的確我們需要討論因為沒有一個法作為依據的時候就沒有辦法討論也沒有辦法定下遊戲規則所以我在這邊有兩個請求\n363655\t385297\t第一個我請內政部跟園民會要儘速完成以下兩項的事項並且希望你們在一週之內要回覆本席辦公室第一個就是針對上會期地制法第83之7條直轄市山地區財政挹注相關的問題我要請內政部提出你們的研議結果\n386378\t404969\t第二個要請兩機關共同來研擬最適合原住民族的行政區劃的方案並且以本席剛剛所提到的國土計畫中裡面的中央山脈保育軸為基礎然後進行後續整體規劃跟相關法制作業\n406490\t435476\t儘速提出具體方向跟時間因為有提出這個之後呢也方便我們在公聽會也方便我們地方由下而上提出一些構想跟想法以上兩點需求希望你們在一週之內能夠提供給本席辦公室可以嗎跟委員報告這兩個議題都尤其是第二個議題還蠻蠻難大的不曉得一週的時間夠不夠喔好那你認為要多久\n436411\t460493\t因為這個一定不好討論協文部長 報告委員是這樣子 地制法八十三支七條的部分我的同仁是告訴我說 財政部好像有一些他們的這個說明那另外就是有關國土計畫 我想高俊維非常清楚國土計畫法在大院審查的過程當中 它是需要六年\n461496\t486556\t的時間延到6年以後所以目前為止呢我們的國土計畫呢是以延到6年在區域計畫或者其他相關的計畫的時候再來做調整那現在您所提到的中央山脈保育軸為基礎我是很抱歉我比較才疏學淺我是第一次聽到是不是容我了解一下這個狀況以後呢再來跟我們的國土計畫的相關單位提出一個方向好嗎\n487116\t512713\t中央山脈保育軸的問題其實談了很久了是但是在國土計劃法裡面並沒有列進去對您當時還在做我們同事的時候其實我就一直提出這個中央山脈保育軸的問題但是現行的國土計劃法尤其是那個大院所通過的部分並沒有提到這一塊所以我們並沒有在我們的這個行政單位的同仁裡面把它列為是這個現在要提出一週內要提出這個具體的時程所以您認為要多久的時間多久的時間能夠\n515674\t528361\t我必須要問我們的國土署的同仁這樣子好不好給你們一個月的時間好不好至少要有一些看法如果有任何意見的話可以到我辦公室我們來做一些討論好嗎\n534199\t556270\t報告高經緯我們同仁說你所提到的國土空間發展的部分是國發會所提的部分讓我們回去我們自己行政單位做一下內部的資訊上的收集整合以後再提供給委員參考好嗎所以一個月可以好那請內政部跟這個園民會一個月之內\n557936\t572982\t對於以上我提的這兩個方案一個月之內能夠提供給我是就是內政部跟原住民委員會還有財政部跟國發會把這些資訊把它收攏過來以後再提供給委員參考好嗎好OK謝謝\n","txt":"原住民族政策的發展與影響原住民族政策的目標是以原住民族的史觀\n詮釋歷史為事實基礎然後規劃原民轉型正義具體權利恢復或補償措施走向族群之間真正的和諧而這書中呢也明確的指出原住民史觀強調的是原民早於國家形成之前就已經存在主權人權自由理應該被承認跟尊重請教一下中副主委\n是委員民進黨執政已經到10年了到今天而原住民使官跟主權的理念是否是有真正體現我們的行政區劃制度當中是不是有被納入我們有非常多的政策的規劃跟制度的設計各位報告這個在105年總統\n蔡英文代表政府向民族道歉的時候就針對建立史觀這個部分有提出一些看法所以我們在這幾年來針對原住民族史觀的建置我們都不遺餘力也處理了很多一些歷史事件的資料跟目前史觀的建置所以部長請問一下你也支持吧\n是 我想剛剛副主委所講的部分也是我們的立場好 謝謝既然大家都同意的話那麼我們就先來回顧一下歷史日據時期的翻地制度把原住民族隔離管理差別對待從制度上就切割了我們的主體性而殖民政權設置了福肯署 紙產局\n粗暴的濫墾濫伐掠奪山林跟土地的資源我們比較遺憾的是殖民治理的邏輯到現在仍然存在在我們的制度當中原住民族被行政區劃切割了\n我相信中副主委你很清楚我也相信部長也很清楚包括我們的泰雅族就被分裂為七個縣市而排灣族呢他跨越了屏東跟台東兩個地區族群的整體性遭完全的破壞\n然後治理的資源根本沒有辦法整合因此在今天我非常支持召委的行政區劃法的構想這個構想是將族群特性人文歷史還有環境保護納入行政區劃的核心考量\n那我相信大家都支持也都同意行政區劃不應該只是人口跟地理的分配他應該反映的是對歷史正義跟文化的尊重並且要正視原住民的文化脈絡跟集體需求請問一下部長您同意這樣子的看法嗎\n呃我想呃我想那個高金委員所提到的部分呢就是對於原住民的關心哈嗯但是在行政區劃上面呢確實沒有錯現行的行政區劃法呢在透過分流立法的方式呢並沒有現行哈並沒有把原住民\n劃定在裡面原住民的區域但是未來如果有實質的民族自治尤其是原住民族自治的相關法制的話我們願意透過公聽的方式或是學者專家提供的意見看是否有方便可以放到這個裡面但是因為它所涉及到的部分還是要透過包括各縣市地方政府還有就是原住民區域裡面的族群的部分一起來共同討論我想這樣子比較不會產生太多的爭議很好\n也就是說由下而上 大家來共同討論 對吧好 所以呢 我主張 既然大家都談到了原住民的自治原住民的自治跟屠海法 其實呢 在立法院講了很久一直都沒有付諸行動 那既然呢 自治還沒談到我們現在就從所謂的行政區劃法 我們開始把這個構想概念放在裡面\n所以我主張以國土計畫中裡面的中央三脈堡玉軸為基礎然後來整合原鄉55個鄉鎮市區來打造一套符合原住民族發展需求的行政區劃的架構這不僅僅只是資源的再分配的問題而是必須要結合產業發展\n生態保育跟財政的調配來推動符合原住民族發展需求的行政區劃改革我想以這樣子作為一個中心的討論的主軸中副主委你應該同意吧謝謝委員對於原住民族自治的關心的確這20幾年來如何自治如何劃分包括所謂土地也好或者權力也好或權限也好這個都是一直以來大家都在討論的一個議題\n那針對委員的看法我是尊重委員這樣的一個想法好 非常謝謝不管是部長也好 園民會也好都同意我的看法也支持我的理念支持我的理念其實也就是支持105年中副主委你所寫的民族政策的發展跟影響 對吧那所以今天在這裡我也非常謝謝昭緯\n提了今天的行政區劃法的構想跟概念的確我們需要討論因為沒有一個法作為依據的時候就沒有辦法討論也沒有辦法定下遊戲規則所以我在這邊有兩個請求\n第一個我請內政部跟園民會要儘速完成以下兩項的事項並且希望你們在一週之內要回覆本席辦公室第一個就是針對上會期地制法第83之7條直轄市山地區財政挹注相關的問題我要請內政部提出你們的研議結果\n第二個要請兩機關共同來研擬最適合原住民族的行政區劃的方案並且以本席剛剛所提到的國土計畫中裡面的中央山脈保育軸為基礎然後進行後續整體規劃跟相關法制作業\n儘速提出具體方向跟時間因為有提出這個之後呢也方便我們在公聽會也方便我們地方由下而上提出一些構想跟想法以上兩點需求希望你們在一週之內能夠提供給本席辦公室可以嗎跟委員報告這兩個議題都尤其是第二個議題還蠻蠻難大的不曉得一週的時間夠不夠喔好那你認為要多久\n因為這個一定不好討論協文部長 報告委員是這樣子 地制法八十三支七條的部分我的同仁是告訴我說 財政部好像有一些他們的這個說明那另外就是有關國土計畫 我想高俊維非常清楚國土計畫法在大院審查的過程當中 它是需要六年\n的時間延到6年以後所以目前為止呢我們的國土計畫呢是以延到6年在區域計畫或者其他相關的計畫的時候再來做調整那現在您所提到的中央山脈保育軸為基礎我是很抱歉我比較才疏學淺我是第一次聽到是不是容我了解一下這個狀況以後呢再來跟我們的國土計畫的相關單位提出一個方向好嗎\n中央山脈保育軸的問題其實談了很久了是但是在國土計劃法裡面並沒有列進去對您當時還在做我們同事的時候其實我就一直提出這個中央山脈保育軸的問題但是現行的國土計劃法尤其是那個大院所通過的部分並沒有提到這一塊所以我們並沒有在我們的這個行政單位的同仁裡面把它列為是這個現在要提出一週內要提出這個具體的時程所以您認為要多久的時間多久的時間能夠\n我必須要問我們的國土署的同仁這樣子好不好給你們一個月的時間好不好至少要有一些看法如果有任何意見的話可以到我辦公室我們來做一些討論好嗎\n報告高經緯我們同仁說你所提到的國土空間發展的部分是國發會所提的部分讓我們回去我們自己行政單位做一下內部的資訊上的收集整合以後再提供給委員參考好嗎所以一個月可以好那請內政部跟這個園民會一個月之內\n對於以上我提的這兩個方案一個月之內能夠提供給我是就是內政部跟原住民委員會還有財政部跟國發會把這些資訊把它收攏過來以後再提供給委員參考好嗎好OK謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.594 --> 00:06.857\n原住民族政策的發展與影響原住民族政策的目標是以原住民族的史觀\n\n00:26.911 --> 00:54.734\n詮釋歷史為事實基礎然後規劃原民轉型正義具體權利恢復或補償措施走向族群之間真正的和諧而這書中呢也明確的指出原住民史觀強調的是原民早於國家形成之前就已經存在主權人權自由理應該被承認跟尊重請教一下中副主委\n\n00:55.970 --> 01:14.443\n是委員民進黨執政已經到10年了到今天而原住民使官跟主權的理念是否是有真正體現我們的行政區劃制度當中是不是有被納入我們有非常多的政策的規劃跟制度的設計各位報告這個在105年總統\n\n01:21.312 --> 01:41.110\n蔡英文代表政府向民族道歉的時候就針對建立史觀這個部分有提出一些看法所以我們在這幾年來針對原住民族史觀的建置我們都不遺餘力也處理了很多一些歷史事件的資料跟目前史觀的建置所以部長請問一下你也支持吧\n\n01:42.239 --> 02:04.662\n是我想剛剛副主委所講的部分也是我們的立場好謝謝既然大家都同意的話那麼我們就先來回顧一下歷史日據時期的翻地制度把原住民族隔離管理差別對待從制度上就切割了我們的主體性而殖民政權設置了福肯署紙產局\n\n02:05.843 --> 02:21.481\n粗暴的濫墾濫伐掠奪山林跟土地的資源我們比較遺憾的是殖民治理的邏輯到現在仍然存在在我們的制度當中原住民族被行政區劃切割了\n\n02:24.025 --> 02:41.276\n我相信中副主委你很清楚我也相信部長也很清楚包括我們的泰雅族就被分裂為七個縣市而排灣族呢他跨越了屏東跟台東兩個地區族群的整體性遭完全的破壞\n\n02:42.196 --> 03:00.198\n然後治理的資源根本沒有辦法整合因此在今天我非常支持召委的行政區劃法的構想這個構想是將族群特性人文歷史還有環境保護納入行政區劃的核心考量\n\n03:00.959 --> 03:19.731\n那我相信大家都支持也都同意行政區劃不應該只是人口跟地理的分配他應該反映的是對歷史正義跟文化的尊重並且要正視原住民的文化脈絡跟集體需求請問一下部長您同意這樣子的看法嗎\n\n03:21.473 --> 03:38.003\n呃我想呃我想那個高金委員所提到的部分呢就是對於原住民的關心哈嗯但是在行政區劃上面呢確實沒有錯現行的行政區劃法呢在透過分流立法的方式呢並沒有現行哈並沒有把原住民\n\n03:38.923 --> 04:05.588\n劃定在裡面原住民的區域但是未來如果有實質的民族自治尤其是原住民族自治的相關法制的話我們願意透過公聽的方式或是學者專家提供的意見看是否有方便可以放到這個裡面但是因為它所涉及到的部分還是要透過包括各縣市地方政府還有就是原住民區域裡面的族群的部分一起來共同討論我想這樣子比較不會產生太多的爭議很好\n\n04:08.749 --> 04:31.909\n也就是說由下而上大家來共同討論對吧好所以呢我主張既然大家都談到了原住民的自治原住民的自治跟屠海法其實呢在立法院講了很久一直都沒有付諸行動那既然呢自治還沒談到我們現在就從所謂的行政區劃法我們開始把這個構想概念放在裡面\n\n04:32.850 --> 04:53.197\n所以我主張以國土計畫中裡面的中央三脈堡玉軸為基礎然後來整合原鄉55個鄉鎮市區來打造一套符合原住民族發展需求的行政區劃的架構這不僅僅只是資源的再分配的問題而是必須要結合產業發展\n\n04:54.457 --> 05:23.031\n生態保育跟財政的調配來推動符合原住民族發展需求的行政區劃改革我想以這樣子作為一個中心的討論的主軸中副主委你應該同意吧謝謝委員對於原住民族自治的關心的確這20幾年來如何自治如何劃分包括所謂土地也好或者權力也好或權限也好這個都是一直以來大家都在討論的一個議題\n\n05:24.585 --> 05:43.631\n那針對委員的看法我是尊重委員這樣的一個想法好非常謝謝不管是部長也好園民會也好都同意我的看法也支持我的理念支持我的理念其實也就是支持105年中副主委你所寫的民族政策的發展跟影響對吧那所以今天在這裡我也非常謝謝昭緯\n\n05:44.591 --> 05:55.965\n提了今天的行政區劃法的構想跟概念的確我們需要討論因為沒有一個法作為依據的時候就沒有辦法討論也沒有辦法定下遊戲規則所以我在這邊有兩個請求\n\n06:03.655 --> 06:25.297\n第一個我請內政部跟園民會要儘速完成以下兩項的事項並且希望你們在一週之內要回覆本席辦公室第一個就是針對上會期地制法第83之7條直轄市山地區財政挹注相關的問題我要請內政部提出你們的研議結果\n\n06:26.378 --> 06:44.969\n第二個要請兩機關共同來研擬最適合原住民族的行政區劃的方案並且以本席剛剛所提到的國土計畫中裡面的中央山脈保育軸為基礎然後進行後續整體規劃跟相關法制作業\n\n06:46.490 --> 07:15.476\n儘速提出具體方向跟時間因為有提出這個之後呢也方便我們在公聽會也方便我們地方由下而上提出一些構想跟想法以上兩點需求希望你們在一週之內能夠提供給本席辦公室可以嗎跟委員報告這兩個議題都尤其是第二個議題還蠻蠻難大的不曉得一週的時間夠不夠喔好那你認為要多久\n\n07:16.411 --> 07:40.493\n因為這個一定不好討論協文部長報告委員是這樣子地制法八十三支七條的部分我的同仁是告訴我說財政部好像有一些他們的這個說明那另外就是有關國土計畫我想高俊維非常清楚國土計畫法在大院審查的過程當中它是需要六年\n\n07:41.496 --> 08:06.556\n的時間延到6年以後所以目前為止呢我們的國土計畫呢是以延到6年在區域計畫或者其他相關的計畫的時候再來做調整那現在您所提到的中央山脈保育軸為基礎我是很抱歉我比較才疏學淺我是第一次聽到是不是容我了解一下這個狀況以後呢再來跟我們的國土計畫的相關單位提出一個方向好嗎\n\n08:07.116 --> 08:32.713\n中央山脈保育軸的問題其實談了很久了是但是在國土計劃法裡面並沒有列進去對您當時還在做我們同事的時候其實我就一直提出這個中央山脈保育軸的問題但是現行的國土計劃法尤其是那個大院所通過的部分並沒有提到這一塊所以我們並沒有在我們的這個行政單位的同仁裡面把它列為是這個現在要提出一週內要提出這個具體的時程所以您認為要多久的時間多久的時間能夠\n\n08:35.674 --> 08:48.361\n我必須要問我們的國土署的同仁這樣子好不好給你們一個月的時間好不好至少要有一些看法如果有任何意見的話可以到我辦公室我們來做一些討論好嗎\n\n08:54.199 --> 09:16.270\n報告高經緯我們同仁說你所提到的國土空間發展的部分是國發會所提的部分讓我們回去我們自己行政單位做一下內部的資訊上的收集整合以後再提供給委員參考好嗎所以一個月可以好那請內政部跟這個園民會一個月之內\n\n09:17.936 --> 09:32.982\n對於以上我提的這兩個方案一個月之內能夠提供給我是就是內政部跟原住民委員會還有財政部跟國發會把這些資訊把它收攏過來以後再提供給委員參考好嗎好OK謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.594,"end":6.857,"text":"原住民族政策的發展與影響原住民族政策的目標是以原住民族的史觀"},{"start":26.911,"end":54.734,"text":"詮釋歷史為事實基礎然後規劃原民轉型正義具體權利恢復或補償措施走向族群之間真正的和諧而這書中呢也明確的指出原住民史觀強調的是原民早於國家形成之前就已經存在主權人權自由理應該被承認跟尊重請教一下中副主委"},{"start":55.97,"end":74.443,"text":"是委員民進黨執政已經到10年了到今天而原住民使官跟主權的理念是否是有真正體現我們的行政區劃制度當中是不是有被納入我們有非常多的政策的規劃跟制度的設計各位報告這個在105年總統"},{"start":81.312,"end":101.11,"text":"蔡英文代表政府向民族道歉的時候就針對建立史觀這個部分有提出一些看法所以我們在這幾年來針對原住民族史觀的建置我們都不遺餘力也處理了很多一些歷史事件的資料跟目前史觀的建置所以部長請問一下你也支持吧"},{"start":102.239,"end":124.662,"text":"是 我想剛剛副主委所講的部分也是我們的立場好 謝謝既然大家都同意的話那麼我們就先來回顧一下歷史日據時期的翻地制度把原住民族隔離管理差別對待從制度上就切割了我們的主體性而殖民政權設置了福肯署 紙產局"},{"start":125.843,"end":141.481,"text":"粗暴的濫墾濫伐掠奪山林跟土地的資源我們比較遺憾的是殖民治理的邏輯到現在仍然存在在我們的制度當中原住民族被行政區劃切割了"},{"start":144.025,"end":161.276,"text":"我相信中副主委你很清楚我也相信部長也很清楚包括我們的泰雅族就被分裂為七個縣市而排灣族呢他跨越了屏東跟台東兩個地區族群的整體性遭完全的破壞"},{"start":162.196,"end":180.198,"text":"然後治理的資源根本沒有辦法整合因此在今天我非常支持召委的行政區劃法的構想這個構想是將族群特性人文歷史還有環境保護納入行政區劃的核心考量"},{"start":180.959,"end":199.731,"text":"那我相信大家都支持也都同意行政區劃不應該只是人口跟地理的分配他應該反映的是對歷史正義跟文化的尊重並且要正視原住民的文化脈絡跟集體需求請問一下部長您同意這樣子的看法嗎"},{"start":201.473,"end":218.003,"text":"呃我想呃我想那個高金委員所提到的部分呢就是對於原住民的關心哈嗯但是在行政區劃上面呢確實沒有錯現行的行政區劃法呢在透過分流立法的方式呢並沒有現行哈並沒有把原住民"},{"start":218.923,"end":245.588,"text":"劃定在裡面原住民的區域但是未來如果有實質的民族自治尤其是原住民族自治的相關法制的話我們願意透過公聽的方式或是學者專家提供的意見看是否有方便可以放到這個裡面但是因為它所涉及到的部分還是要透過包括各縣市地方政府還有就是原住民區域裡面的族群的部分一起來共同討論我想這樣子比較不會產生太多的爭議很好"},{"start":248.749,"end":271.909,"text":"也就是說由下而上 大家來共同討論 對吧好 所以呢 我主張 既然大家都談到了原住民的自治原住民的自治跟屠海法 其實呢 在立法院講了很久一直都沒有付諸行動 那既然呢 自治還沒談到我們現在就從所謂的行政區劃法 我們開始把這個構想概念放在裡面"},{"start":272.85,"end":293.197,"text":"所以我主張以國土計畫中裡面的中央三脈堡玉軸為基礎然後來整合原鄉55個鄉鎮市區來打造一套符合原住民族發展需求的行政區劃的架構這不僅僅只是資源的再分配的問題而是必須要結合產業發展"},{"start":294.457,"end":323.031,"text":"生態保育跟財政的調配來推動符合原住民族發展需求的行政區劃改革我想以這樣子作為一個中心的討論的主軸中副主委你應該同意吧謝謝委員對於原住民族自治的關心的確這20幾年來如何自治如何劃分包括所謂土地也好或者權力也好或權限也好這個都是一直以來大家都在討論的一個議題"},{"start":324.585,"end":343.631,"text":"那針對委員的看法我是尊重委員這樣的一個想法好 非常謝謝不管是部長也好 園民會也好都同意我的看法也支持我的理念支持我的理念其實也就是支持105年中副主委你所寫的民族政策的發展跟影響 對吧那所以今天在這裡我也非常謝謝昭緯"},{"start":344.591,"end":355.965,"text":"提了今天的行政區劃法的構想跟概念的確我們需要討論因為沒有一個法作為依據的時候就沒有辦法討論也沒有辦法定下遊戲規則所以我在這邊有兩個請求"},{"start":363.655,"end":385.297,"text":"第一個我請內政部跟園民會要儘速完成以下兩項的事項並且希望你們在一週之內要回覆本席辦公室第一個就是針對上會期地制法第83之7條直轄市山地區財政挹注相關的問題我要請內政部提出你們的研議結果"},{"start":386.378,"end":404.969,"text":"第二個要請兩機關共同來研擬最適合原住民族的行政區劃的方案並且以本席剛剛所提到的國土計畫中裡面的中央山脈保育軸為基礎然後進行後續整體規劃跟相關法制作業"},{"start":406.49,"end":435.476,"text":"儘速提出具體方向跟時間因為有提出這個之後呢也方便我們在公聽會也方便我們地方由下而上提出一些構想跟想法以上兩點需求希望你們在一週之內能夠提供給本席辦公室可以嗎跟委員報告這兩個議題都尤其是第二個議題還蠻蠻難大的不曉得一週的時間夠不夠喔好那你認為要多久"},{"start":436.411,"end":460.493,"text":"因為這個一定不好討論協文部長 報告委員是這樣子 地制法八十三支七條的部分我的同仁是告訴我說 財政部好像有一些他們的這個說明那另外就是有關國土計畫 我想高俊維非常清楚國土計畫法在大院審查的過程當中 它是需要六年"},{"start":461.496,"end":486.556,"text":"的時間延到6年以後所以目前為止呢我們的國土計畫呢是以延到6年在區域計畫或者其他相關的計畫的時候再來做調整那現在您所提到的中央山脈保育軸為基礎我是很抱歉我比較才疏學淺我是第一次聽到是不是容我了解一下這個狀況以後呢再來跟我們的國土計畫的相關單位提出一個方向好嗎"},{"start":487.116,"end":512.713,"text":"中央山脈保育軸的問題其實談了很久了是但是在國土計劃法裡面並沒有列進去對您當時還在做我們同事的時候其實我就一直提出這個中央山脈保育軸的問題但是現行的國土計劃法尤其是那個大院所通過的部分並沒有提到這一塊所以我們並沒有在我們的這個行政單位的同仁裡面把它列為是這個現在要提出一週內要提出這個具體的時程所以您認為要多久的時間多久的時間能夠"},{"start":515.674,"end":528.361,"text":"我必須要問我們的國土署的同仁這樣子好不好給你們一個月的時間好不好至少要有一些看法如果有任何意見的話可以到我辦公室我們來做一些討論好嗎"},{"start":534.199,"end":556.27,"text":"報告高經緯我們同仁說你所提到的國土空間發展的部分是國發會所提的部分讓我們回去我們自己行政單位做一下內部的資訊上的收集整合以後再提供給委員參考好嗎所以一個月可以好那請內政部跟這個園民會一個月之內"},{"start":557.936,"end":572.982,"text":"對於以上我提的這兩個方案一個月之內能夠提供給我是就是內政部跟原住民委員會還有財政部跟國發會把這些資訊把它收攏過來以後再提供給委員參考好嗎好OK謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":506,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時21分）謝謝主席，我請部長，還有原民會鍾副主委。"],["主席：劉部長、鍾副主委有請。"],["劉部長世芳：高金委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：也請部長看一下，我們鍾副主委在105年的時候，他有寫過「原住民族政策的發展與影響」，在這當中他有提到，原住民族政策的目標是以原住民族的史觀詮釋歷史為事實基礎，然後規劃原民轉型正義具體權利恢復或補償措施，走向族群之間真正的和解。而這書中也明確的指出，原住民史觀強調的是原民早於國家形成之前就已經存在，主權、人權、自由理應該被承認跟尊重。請教一下鍾副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，委員。"],["高金委員素梅：民進黨執政到今天已經10年了，而原住民史觀跟主權的理念是不是有真正體現在我們的行政區劃制度當中？是不是有被納入我們非常多政策的規劃跟制度的設計？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，在105年總統蔡英文代表政府向原住民族道歉的時候，針對建立史觀這個部分有提出一些看法，所以我們在這幾年來，針對原住民族史觀的建置，我們都不遺餘力，也處理了很多歷史事件的資料跟史觀的建置。"],["高金委員素梅：好。部長，請問一下，你也支持吧？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我想剛剛副主委所講的部分，也是我們的立場。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。既然大家都同意的話，那麼我們就先來回顧一下歷史，日治時期的蕃地制度把原住民族隔離管理、差別對待，從制度上就切割了我們的主體性，而殖民政權設置了什麼？撫墾署、殖產局，粗暴的濫墾、濫伐，掠奪山林跟土地的資源，我們比較遺憾的是，殖民治理的邏輯到現在仍然存在在我們的制度當中。原住民族被行政區劃切割了，我相信鍾副主委你很清楚，我相信部長也很清楚，包括我們的泰雅族就被分裂為7個縣市，排灣族則跨越了屏東跟臺東兩個地區，族群的整體性遭完全的破壞，然後治理的資源根本沒有辦法整合。","因此，今天我非常支持召委行政區劃法的構想，這個構想是將族群特性、人文歷史還有環境保護納入行政區劃的核心考量，我相信大家都支持也都同意行政區劃不應該只是人口跟地理的分配，它應該反映的是對歷史正義跟文化的尊重，並且要正視原住民的文化脈絡跟集體需求。請問一下部長，您同意這樣子的看法嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我想高金委員所提到的部分就是對於原住民的關心，但是在行政區劃上面……確實沒有錯，現行的行政區劃法透過分流立法的方式，並沒有把原住民的區域劃定在裡面……"],["高金委員素梅：對。"],["劉部長世芳：但是未來如果有實質的民族自治，尤其是原住民族自治的相關法制的話，我們願意透過公聽的方式或是學者專家提供的意見，看是否有方便可以放到這個裡面，但是因為它所涉及到的部分還是要透過包括各縣市地方政府，還有就是原住民區域裡面的族群的部分一起來共同討論，我想這樣子比較不會產生太多的爭議。"],["高金委員素梅：好，很好，也就是說由下而上，大家來共同討論，對吧？好，所以我主張……既然大家都談到了原住民的自治，原住民的自治跟土海法其實在立法院講了很久，一直都沒有付諸行動，既然自治還沒談到，我們現在就從所謂的行政區劃法，我們開始把這個構想、概念放在裡面，所以我主張以國土計畫中裡面的中央山脈保育軸為基礎，然後整合原鄉55個鄉鎮市區，來打造一套符合原住民族發展需求的行政區劃的架構，這不僅僅只是資源再分配的問題，而是必須要結合產業發展、生態保育跟財政的調配，來推動符合原住民族發展需求的行政區劃改革，我想以這樣子作為一個中心討論的主軸，鍾副主委你應該同意吧？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：謝謝委員對於原住民族自治的關心，的確這二十幾年來如何自治、如何劃分，包括所謂土地也好，或者權力也好，或者權限也好，這個一直以來都是大家在討論的議題，針對委員的看法，我是尊重委員這樣的想法。"],["高金委員素梅：好，非常謝謝，不管是部長也好，原民會也好，都同意我的看法，也支持我的理念，支持我的理念其實也就是支持105年鍾副主委你所寫的「民族政策的發展與影響」，對吧？所以今天在這裡我也非常謝謝召委提了今天這個行政區劃法的構想跟概念，的確我們需要討論，因為沒有一個法作為依據的時候就沒有辦法討論，也沒有辦法訂下遊戲規則，所以我在這邊有兩個請求：第一個，我請內政部跟原民會要儘速完成以下兩項的事項，並且希望你們在一週之內要回復本席辦公室，第一個就是針對上會期地制法第八十三條之七，直轄市山地區財政挹注相關的問題，我要請內政部提出你們的研議結果。第二個，要請兩機關共同來研擬最適合原住民族的行政區劃方案，並且以本席剛剛所提國土計畫裡面的中央山脈保育軸為基礎，然後進行後續整體規劃跟相關法制作業，儘速提出具體方向跟時程。因為提出這個之後，除了方便我們公聽會，也方便我們地方由下而上提出一些構想跟想法。以上兩點需求，希望你們在一週之內能夠提供給本席辦公室，可以嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，這兩個議題，尤其是第二個議題滿大的，不曉得一週的時間夠不夠。"],["高金委員素梅：好，那你認為要多久？請問部長？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，地制法第八十三條之七的部分，我的同仁告訴我說，財政部好像有一些他們的說明。另外就是有關國土計畫，我想高金委員非常清楚，國土計畫法在大院審查的過程當中，它是需要6年的時間，延到6年以後，所以目前為止，我們的國土計畫是延6年，在區域計畫或者其他相關計畫的時候再來做調整。那現在您所提到的中央山脈保育軸為基礎，很抱歉，我比較才疏學淺，我是第一次聽到，是不是容我了解一下這個狀況以後，再來跟我們國土計畫相關單位提出一個方向好嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：中央山脈保育軸的問題其實談了很久了。"],["劉部長世芳：是，但是在國土計畫法裡面並沒有列進去。"],["高金委員素梅：對，您當時還在做我們同事的時候，其實我就一直提出這個中央山脈保育軸。"],["劉部長世芳：對，但是現行的國土計畫法，尤其是大院所通過的部分並沒有提到這一塊，所以我們行政單位的同仁並沒有把它列為是……現在一週內要提出具體的時程，恐怕會有困擾。"],["高金委員素梅：所以您認為要多久的時間？多久的時間能夠……"],["劉部長世芳：我必須要問我們國土署的同仁。"],["高金委員素梅：這樣子好不好，給你們一個月的時間，好不好？至少要有一些看法，如果有任何意見的話，可以到我的辦公室，我們來做一些討論好嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告高金委員，我們同仁說您所提到的這個國土空間發展的部分是國發會所提的，回去後我們行政單位自己會做一下內部資訊上的蒐集，整合以後再提供給委員參考好嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：好，所以一個月可以嗎？請內政部跟原民會一個月之內對以上我提的這兩個方案提供給我。"],["劉部長世芳：是，內政部跟原住民委員會還有財政部跟國發會把這些資訊收攏過來以後，再提供給委員參考好嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：好，OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝高金素梅委員的質詢。","下一位我們請廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-12","speakers":["牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","高金素梅","廖先翔","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃建賓","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「行政區劃法草案」案；二、審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「行政\n區劃法草案」案【僅詢答及宣讀提案條文】","agenda_id":"1144001_00001"}}}